Court filing
Deposition of Seth Crowder — Klaassen v. Indiana University
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2021-07-12 |
U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana · No. 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC · Doc. 31-25 · 2021-07-12 · Docket on CourtListener
Summary
Excerpts from the deposition of Seth Crowder, one of the plaintiffs in Klaassen v. The Trustees of Indiana University, Case No. 1:21-cv-00238, in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana, Fort Wayne Division, filed July 12, 2021 as document 31-25. The remote deposition was taken June 30, 2021, with examination by counsel for Indiana University. In the excerpted testimony the witness describes how he learned of the case and became a plaintiff, which portions of the complaint he reviewed, and his signing of a verification page. He states that he sued because the university's vaccine requirement and its additional masking and testing requirements infringe his religious beliefs. The index lists two deposition exhibits, a signed verification and the verified complaint for declaratory and injunctive relief; the excerpt is 12 pages from a transcript of Pages 1 to 48.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Full text
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
FORT WAYNE DIVISION
RYAN KLAASSEN, JAIME CARINI, )
D.J.B., by and through his )
next friend and father, )
DANIEL G. BAUMGARTNER, )
ASHLEE MORRIS, SETH CROWDER, )
MACEY POLICKA, MARGARET ROTH, )
and NATALIE SPERAZZA, )
)
Plaintiffs, )
) CASE NO.
-vs- ) 1:21-cv-00238
)
THE TRUSTEES OF INDIANA )
UNIVERSITY, )
)
Defendant. )
DEPOSITION OF SETH CROWDER
June 30, 2021
Remote oral deposition of SETH CROWDER,
commencing at 7:04 p.m., on the above date, before
CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968, Registered
Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter
and Notary Public.
GOLKOW LITIGATION SERVICES
877.370.3377 ph / 917.591.5672 fax
deps@golkow.com
Page 3
1
I N D E X
2
SETH CROWDER EXAMINATION
3
BY MS. RICCHIUTO.............. 4
4
5
6
7
E X H I B I T S
8
CROWDER DEPOSITION EXHIBIT MARKED FOR ID
9
No. 1 Signed Verification 18
10
No. 2 Verified Complaint for 19
Declaratory and Injunctive
11
Relief
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
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Page 2
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APPEARANCES
All Parties Appearing Via Zoom Videoconference
2
3
ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
4
THE BOPP LAW FIRM
1 South 6th Street
5
Terre Haute, Indiana 47807
812-232-2434
6
BY: MELENA S. SIEBERT, ESQ.
msiebert@bopplaw.com
7
8
9
10
ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
11
FAEGRE DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH LLP
300 North Meridian Street, Suite 2500
12
Indianapolis, Indiana 46204
317-237-0300
13
BY: ANNE K. RICCHIUTO, ESQ.
anne.ricchiuto@faegredrinker.com
14
15
16
17
18
19
REPORTED BY: CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968
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THE REPORTER: All parties to this deposition
2
are appearing remotely and have agreed to the
3
witness being sworn in remotely.
4
Due to the nature of remote reporting,
5
please pause briefly before speaking to ensure all
6
parties are heard completely.
7
Counsel will be noted on the
8
stenographic record.
9
Counsel, do you so stipulate to the
10
remote swearing in of the witness?
11
MS. SIEBERT: Plaintiffs' counsel does, yes.
12
MS. RICCHIUTO: IU does.
13
(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
14
sworn.)
15
SETH CROWDER,
16
called as a witness herein, having been first duly
17
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
18
EXAMINATION
19
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
20
Q. Mr. Crowder, my name is Anne Ricchiuto.
21
I'm the lawyer for Indiana University that's
22
defending the lawsuit that you are one of the
23
Plaintiffs in.
24
Before we start, I just want to put a
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 1 of 12
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
Page 5
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couple procedural matters on the record since the
2
deposition is virtual.
3
If anything happens -- we had this
4
happen in another one. If anything happens to your
5
technology or you freeze or I freeze or whatever,
6
we'll all just be patient with one another and get
7
back together as soon as we can. Is that okay?
8
A. Yes, that's fine.
9
Q. Is there anybody in the room with you?
10
A. No. I live alone.
11
Q. Okay. They could be hiding behind the
12
skyline, and that would be okay.
13
And then what I just need you to do is
14
let me know if -- let me ask it a different way.
15
I'm going to ask you not to text or
16
instant message or have any kind of live
17
communications during the deposition. If you need
18
to talk to your lawyer or she wants to talk to you,
19
there is a way to do that. But I just need you to
20
tell me. But, otherwise, there is no like
21
phone-a-friend while we're talking. Okay?
22
A. Sure.
23
Q. Have you had your deposition ever taken
24
before?
Page 7
1
and pass code and then I see exhibit share platform
2
with a link.
3
Q. Yep. So if you click that link. You
4
don't have to do it right this second or you can.
5
But that's -- we are going to have you go in there,
6
and you can have a minute to make sure that you can
7
get in and we can walk you through that.
8
A. Okay.
9
Q. Today while you're testifying, if at any
10
time you don't understand my question, please tell
11
me so that I can rephrase it and ask you a better
12
question. If you answer my question, I'm going to
13
assume that you understood it.
14
The Court Reporter is taking down what
15
we say. And, so, even though in normal
16
conversation we do a lot of, you know, kind of
17
nodding or head shaking or uh-huh or uh-uhs, we are
18
going to try to help each other and make sure that
19
we give nice audible answers so she can get them
20
down for the record. Do you understand?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. Your attorney might have objections to
23
some of my questions and if she does, that's okay.
24
She'll say what they are. You will still answer
Page 6
1
A. One other time. It's been several years
2
ago. It was the result of a car accident I was
3
involved in.
4
Q. Okay. So, you've done this once before,
5
and you know that the purpose is for me to ask
6
questions and get some answers and some information
7
about what you know and think about this case.
8
You understand that you're under oath.
9
Correct?
10
A. Correct.
11
Q. Okay. Do you have any documents or
12
notes with you there, Mr. Crowder?
13
A. I don't. The only thing I have up at
14
the moment is the e-mail with the invitation. And
15
then there's also the share platform, and I'm just
16
not sure if I -- if you see me in that or if I need
17
to take any additional action to access that right
18
now.
19
Q. So, the only thing -- I'm going to want
20
to show you a copy of the Complaint, like the
21
actual lawsuit, and you'll be able to see it in
22
there if you log into that portal.
23
Do you have the credentials to do that?
24
A. Well, I see Zoom meeting with meeting ID
Page 8
1
the question that was asked unless she specifically
2
tells you not to.
3
So, we can deal with that when it comes
4
up. I just want to let you know that you may hear
5
her interrupt me from time to time with an
6
objection and that's perfectly fine.
7
A. Okay.
8
Q. Could you state your name for the
9
record, Mr. Crowder.
10
A. Seth Crowder.
11
Q. What did you do to prepare to testify
12
today?
13
A. I talked with my attorney and also
14
listened to a recording of some of the other
15
Plaintiffs in the case. Initially they wanted to
16
do that kind of in one shot. I had a schedule
17
conflict. So, my attorney was kind enough to send
18
me a recording of that session that I missed.
19
Q. Was that a session that your lawyers had
20
for all the Plaintiffs kind of before you got
21
deposed?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. Okay. So, you just viewed a recording
24
of that at a different time. Is that right?
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 2 of 12
3 (Pages 9 to 12)
Page 9
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A. It was an audio-only recording.
2
Q. Okay.
3
A. But yes.
4
Q. Anything else that you did to prepare to
5
testify this evening?
6
A. No. Just kind of tried to anticipate
7
some questions that you may ask, but that's kind of
8
impossible to do. So...
9
Q. Okay. Tell me about the lawsuit.
10
A. I'm not sure I understand your question.
11
Q. Well, you've sued Indiana University,
12
correct?
13
A. Correct.
14
Q. Why did you do that?
15
A. I feel that the requirement infringes on
16
my religious beliefs.
17
Q. What's "the requirement" that you're
18
talking about?
19
A. The vaccine requirement and the
20
additional requirements for masking and testing.
21
Q. Okay. Did you -- how did you become
22
involved in the case?
23
A. I -- trying to remember. I don't
24
remember specifically timelines, but I do remember
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1
it. I don't remember if I was actively searching
2
for it or if it came up in my feed, to be honest.
3
Q. You saw that and then either you
4
contacted the Bopp Law Firm or they contacted you
5
and now you are a Plaintiff in the case. Is that a
6
fair summary?
7
A. I think that's fair.
8
Q. Okay. Did you review the Complaint that
9
was filed in this case?
10
A. I reviewed portions of it. I wouldn't
11
say that I poured over every single bit of text.
12
But yes.
13
Q. Do you know what -- do you remember what
14
portions you reviewed?
15
A. I made sure to kind of see where I was
16
mentioned and made sure that it was accurate. So,
17
I remember that piece specifically. But I know
18
there were a lot of other Plaintiffs and there were
19
some -- some different cases there. So, I don't
20
know all their specific cases.
21
Q. Have you met or talked to any of the
22
other Plaintiffs?
23
A. No.
24
Q. Did you review the -- do you know -- did
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seeing a Facebook group having to do with concerns
2
about the mandate; and I remember thinking to
3
myself that I would volunteer to be involved in a
4
case if one came.
5
But I don't remember specifically how
6
that happened, if I had contacted somebody in the
7
Facebook group. I don't remember the specific
8
action of that. But that's how I initially found
9
out about it.
10
Q. Does that Facebook group have a name?
11
A. It does, yes.
12
Q. What is the name?
13
A. I don't want to misquote it. It's
14
something with the effect of IU Families for
15
Choice, Not Mandates. Something of that nature. I
16
don't want to give you the wrong --
17
Q. Okay. That's fine.
18
A. -- the wrong word for that.
19
Q. Some name with maybe some or all of
20
those words in it?
21
A. Correct.
22
Q. Is that something that you just stumbled
23
upon in your feed or did someone point you to it?
24
A. I don't remember anybody pointing me to
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you review the Complaint before it was filed or
2
after it was filed or the portions that you said
3
you reviewed, did you do that before or after it
4
was filed?
5
A. I believe after.
6
Q. Okay. What about the exhibits, did you
7
review the exhibits?
8
A. Some of them.
9
Q. Do you remember which ones?
10
A. I don't.
11
Q. Did you -- do you remember signing a
12
verification page?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. What's your understanding of what that
15
verification means or does?
16
A. I don't have it in front of me, but my
17
main takeaway was that what I was claiming was
18
accurate and that I am who I say I am. I am
19
enrolled in the university and that everything that
20
I was saying was true.
21
Q. Is that something that you signed before
22
you reviewed the Complaint?
23
A. I don't believe so.
24
Q. Well, I'm just trying to figure out the
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 3 of 12
4 (Pages 13 to 16)
Page 13
1
sequence because I think you said you reviewed the
2
Complaint after it was filed, and I will just tell
3
you your verification was filed with the Complaint.
4
So, there was a -- there was a signature
5
on the verification, filing the verification, and
6
then maybe you reviewed the Complaint if I'm
7
understanding your testimony. But tell me if I
8
don't have that sequence right.
9
A. It could be. I don't remember the
10
sequence myself. I know that there were some
11
conversations via e-mail with an attorney. I know
12
that we had had a Zoom call about the case. I
13
don't remember where that falls in the timeline of
14
when she was requesting a verification and when the
15
case was filed.
16
Q. Fair enough. Okay. So, you're
17
currently an MBA student, Mr. Crowder?
18
A. Correct.
19
Q. What year are you?
20
A. I have one quarter left after this
21
quarter.
22
Q. I don't think I knew MBA was on
23
quarters.
24
A. Um-hmm. The evening MBA through -- it's
Page 15
1
for an evening MBA?
2
A. So, the way that the course is designed
3
is a hybrid model. So, when we first started, we
4
would have class one day a week on campus and we
5
would have our other class for the week online and
6
the two would rotate every week. So, the class
7
that you would have in person one week would be the
8
one that you would have online the following week.
9
And then at some point, whenever this
10
pandemic started, they went to all online. And,
11
so, since that time we've been all online,
12
including this quarter. And next quarter they have
13
said that they are going back to kind of the normal
14
hybrid model.
15
Q. Okay. So, help me out with "this
16
quarter" and "next quarter."
17
Is "this quarter," has that -- is what
18
you're calling "this quarter," has that started
19
yet?
20
A. Yes. I'm in the -- I'm in the middle of
21
it.
22
Q. So, do you have one more quarter after
23
this quarter or this is it?
24
A. Correct. I have one more after this
Page 14
1
on the IUPUI campus.
2
Q. Do I take it that you work full time?
3
A. I do.
4
Q. And then you get deposed --
5
A. Yeah.
6
Q. -- when you're really lucky, at 7:00 at
7
night.
8
A. Yep.
9
Q. What's your full-time job?
10
A. I work in digital marketing for an ad
11
agency in Indianapolis.
12
Q. So, you have one quarter. If you have a
13
full-time -- well, I'm not going to guess. Do you
14
live on campus?
15
A. No.
16
Q. You live somewhere in your own
17
residence?
18
A. Um-hmm.
19
Q. Okay.
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. And have you lived during -- since
22
March of 2020, have you ever lived on an IU campus?
23
A. No.
24
Q. How often do you physically have class
Page 16
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quarter is completed.
2
Q. And this quarter began when?
3
A. I don't remember the exact date. I
4
believe we're roughly four or five weeks into it.
5
Q. Okay. So, it's kind of like a
6
summer-ish quarter?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q. And then when does the next quarter
9
start?
10
A. It's mid-August. Actually just got an
11
e-mail today, and don't quote me, but I believe
12
it's the 23rd of August.
13
Q. Okay. And IU has told you that the next
14
quarter that begins in mid-August will have some
15
in-person components, is that right?
16
A. Yeah, the e-mail that I got today
17
indicated that it would be returning back to that
18
kind of normal situation with the hybrid model.
19
Q. And the normal situation is physical
20
class one day a week?
21
A. Correct.
22
Q. And how long is that class?
23
A. I believe they're scheduled for two
24
hours and 40 minutes typically. Not every
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 4 of 12
5 (Pages 17 to 20)
Page 17
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professor always takes that entire time, but when I
2
was physically present on class or in class, most
3
did take that full time.
4
Q. Okay. So, right now in the current
5
quarter, you are not going to campus at all for
6
class. Is that correct?
7
A. That's correct.
8
Q. And beginning in mid-August, whenever
9
the next quarter starts, you expect to be on campus
10
for two hours and 40 minutes a week. Is that
11
accurate?
12
A. Yes. It's accurate that that is the
13
plan that they have laid out.
14
Q. Okay. If a professor lets you go after
15
half an hour, you are probably not going to sit
16
there for the rest of the time.
17
A. I won't fight him, no.
18
Q. In general, it sounds like that that's
19
the expectation?
20
A. Correct.
21
Q. Mr. Crowder, have you been vaccinated
22
against COVID-19?
23
A. I have not.
24
Q. Do you have any plans to be vaccinated?
Page 19
1
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
2
Q. This is docket entry 1-13 in the
3
lawsuit, and this is -- I just want to confirm,
4
Seth, that this is the verification page that you
5
signed --
6
A. It is.
7
Q. -- in connection with the Complaint.
8
Okay.
9
Now, if we go back, if you refresh one
10
more time, hopefully you will have the actual
11
Complaint.
12
A. I see "Exhibit 002."
13
Q. Do you see Exhibit 2?
14
A. Yeah.
15
Q. Okay. So, when you pull that up, this
16
is the Complaint in the lawsuit, which we're going
17
to mark as Exhibit 2. It's docket entry No. 1.
18
(WHEREUPON, Crowder Deposition
19
Exhibit No. 2 was marked for
20
identification: Verified Complaint
21
for Declaratory and Injunctive
22
Relief.)
23
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
24
Q. And you see in the left hand -- the
Page 18
1
A. I do not.
2
Q. Okay. If you can, log into that website
3
and let us know if you need anything.
4
A. I think I am in, but it just says no
5
files in here.
6
Q. Okay. Refresh it, if you will, for me.
7
And then you should have one or two.
8
A. I see one.
9
Q. Okay. We'll start with that one while
10
the other one comes up.
11
Is it called "Seth Crowder
12
Verification"?
13
A. It said like Exhibit.
14
Q. Oh, yeah. Okay. Exhibit 1.
15
Okay. Can you open it up for me?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Is it your verification page?
18
A. Yes.
19
MS. RICCHIUTO: Okay. So, we'll mark this as
20
Exhibit 1.
21
(WHEREUPON, Crowder Deposition
22
Exhibit No. 1 was marked for
23
identification: Signed
24
Verification.)
Page 20
1
upper left, Seth, where you can adjust to the
2
page numbers?
3
A. Um-hmm, yes.
4
Q. You are free to look at any page that
5
you want, but what I am the most interested in is
6
on page 44.
7
So, you can either enter 44 there or you
8
can scroll down to 44 so that we can find
9
paragraphs 205 and 206, and these are paragraphs
10
that are about you. Is that correct?
11
A. Yep. I see them.
12
Q. Have you seen them before?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. Are they accurate?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. Are those the paragraphs that you were
17
verifying when you signed that verification page?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. So, paragraph 205 says you're pursuing
20
your MBA. We have talked about that.
21
That you have a religious objection to
22
the vaccine. We've talked about that.
23
You have been granted an exemption.
24
Correct?
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 5 of 12
6 (Pages 21 to 24)
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1
A. From the vaccine, yes.
2
Q. Yes. And that was a religious
3
exemption, correct?
4
A. Correct.
5
Q. Okay. So, is it your -- do you
6
understand, then, that when you go to campus
7
starting in mid-August that you do not have to be
8
vaccinated?
9
A. I do understand that.
10
Q. Okay. Paragraph 206 identifies
11
"religious objection to the extra requirements."
12
Tell me what the extra requirements are.
13
A. My understanding of the extra
14
requirements is being masked while on campus with
15
no exception and being subject to potential COVID
16
testing requirements.
17
Q. Okay. And you have religious objection
18
to both of those?
19
A. Correct.
20
Q. So, let's talk about masking first.
21
Since March of 2020, when the pandemic
22
began, have you ever worn a mask -- not -- I keep
23
saying not Halloween -- but a mask associated with
24
COVID-19 precautions?
Page 23
1
Q. Given the list of places that you
2
identified for me that you did wear a mask, it
3
sounds like generally during the time that masking
4
was required, you were wearing a mask at places
5
that required it. Is that fair?
6
A. I think that's fair. I tried to avoid
7
instances where I'd be required to wear a mask for
8
more than a minute or two. So, that's -- that's
9
kind of what I dealt with I guess.
10
Q. Okay. So, during -- during the last --
11
do you go -- do you do your MBA program sort of
12
straight through?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. Have you had any quarters off? No?
15
A. No.
16
Q. Okay. So, while you were virtual, did
17
you ever have to go to campus and wear a mask on
18
campus?
19
A. No.
20
Q. When is the last time that you went to a
21
physical class for your MBA or visited campus
22
physically based on your MBA program?
23
A. I can't remember. It would have been in
24
the quarter that we were last required, but it's
Page 22
1
A. Yes.
2
Q. How many times since March of 2020 would
3
you estimate that you've worn a mask?
4
A. Gosh, I don't know that I'd be able to
5
give you an accurate estimate. I would say maybe
6
once or twice per week.
7
Q. Did your employer switch to virtual
8
during when everything was kind of really shut down
9
in 2020?
10
A. Yes.
11
Q. Okay. So, where else did you go in 2020
12
that required you to wear a mask?
13
A. FedEx, other stores, restaurants,
14
grocery store, I believe the hardware store.
15
Q. Okay. Is there anywhere that you went
16
since March of 2020 that required a mask where you
17
did not wear one?
18
A. I don't know. I don't know. I don't
19
think so, but I don't know for sure.
20
Q. Is it fair to say that if you did do
21
that, if you did go to a place that required a mask
22
and not wear a mask, that that was infrequent if it
23
happened?
24
A. I think that's fair.
Page 24
1
been such a blur and I don't remember how quickly
2
they locked that down. So, I couldn't give you a
3
firm date, but it would have been when we were
4
still on campus.
5
Q. Was there ever a time, maybe at that
6
tail end leading up to the transition to virtual,
7
when you were required to wear a mask on campus?
8
A. Not that I remember.
9
Q. They may have cleared you out before
10
they --
11
A. Yeah.
12
Q. -- before they got that far.
13
You know there was spring break and then
14
spring break was delayed, and that was sort of the
15
sequence at that time.
16
When we're thinking about other places
17
that you might have worn a mask since March of
18
2020, have you worn a mask at any house of worship
19
since that time?
20
A. No, I don't believe so.
21
Q. Is that because you didn't visit a house
22
of worship or because masking wasn't required or
23
because you just didn't wear one?
24
A. I don't honestly remember. The last
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 6 of 12
7 (Pages 25 to 28)
Page 25
1
time I would have been in a house of worship would
2
have been with my parents up near Kokomo. But I
3
don't remember if I wore a mask or if they were
4
being required at that time.
5
Q. Do you remember approximately when that
6
was?
7
A. I don't. I'm sorry.
8
Q. Okay. Have you ever had COVID,
9
Mr. Crowder?
10
A. I believe that I have, but I was never
11
tested for it. So, I can't say conclusively. But
12
the symptoms that I experienced were very much
13
aligned with COVID symptoms.
14
Q. What were they?
15
A. Just extreme fatigue, just in the middle
16
of the day, not being able to keep my eyes open,
17
difficulty breathing and some symptoms that were
18
kind of related to allergies.
19
So, at first I thought that I might have
20
had just bad allergies; but in hearing more about
21
what COVID entails and the symptoms that are often
22
present, it made me believe that I -- that's what I
23
had.
24
Q. Did you seek medical treatment at the
Page 27
1
time.
2
And then as I would hear more about
3
other people having COVID and what their experience
4
was like, it kind of made a light bulb go off in my
5
head, oh, okay, maybe that's what I had, because it
6
was so different than bad allergies or a regular
7
cold.
8
Q. How long did your symptoms last?
9
A. It's tough to say. I think the extreme
10
fatigue was roughly a couple of weeks, maybe one to
11
two weeks.
12
Q. Did you interact with other people
13
during that time?
14
A. I am sure that I did. I don't have any
15
reason to think that I didn't.
16
Q. Was it around like the end-of-year
17
holidays?
18
A. If my estimate is accurate, then that
19
would be correct. I mean, I did see my folks
20
around that time.
21
Q. Have you ever been tested for COVID
22
antibodies?
23
A. I've not.
24
Q. Last year when you were switched to
Page 26
1
time that you thought you might have had COVID?
2
A. No. I just tried to rest.
3
Q. Have you ever had a COVID test?
4
A. No.
5
Q. Did you at the time that you had those
6
COVID symptoms, did you quarantine or did you go
7
out and about? How did you handle that aspect of
8
it?
9
A. I don't remember quarantining because I
10
didn't even know that -- what COVID was. So, it
11
was not even on my radar as something I should
12
consider doing because it was so early.
13
Q. When was it?
14
A. If I remember correctly, it was
15
December of 2019 or January 2020, somewhere in that
16
time frame.
17
Q. So, at the time that you were having the
18
symptoms, did it occur to you that you had COVID or
19
was it later when we all started to learn more?
20
A. It was later when we started to learn
21
more because the thing that was really different
22
for me during that experience was the fatigue. It
23
was just something I don't think I had ever
24
experienced and it was odd. It seemed odd at the
Page 28
1
virtual in your MBA program, were you aware that IU
2
had masking and testing rules in place for
3
students?
4
A. It's tough because I -- I'll see e-mails
5
come through that talk about it and from what I can
6
recall, the timelines aren't always aligned with
7
the quarter system.
8
And, so, when they have a certain
9
practice in place and they anticipate it being in
10
effect on a certain date, it may or may not affect
11
the quarter system as much.
12
Q. Okay. So, you didn't -- we know that
13
you didn't have to wear a mask because you didn't
14
have to go to campus, is that right?
15
A. Correct.
16
Q. And were you ever subject to COVID
17
testing by IU?
18
A. I don't -- no, I don't think so.
19
Q. Well, you know you didn't get one,
20
right?
21
A. Right, right.
22
Q. So, it sounds like what you're saying is
23
maybe in theory they could have asked you to, but
24
if they -- if they could have, they didn't because
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 7 of 12
8 (Pages 29 to 32)
Page 29
1
you didn't get a test?
2
A. Yeah. The e-mails were confusing, and
3
it wasn't always clear to me whether they were
4
urging people to get tested or they were requiring
5
me specifically to get a test.
6
I never got any separate e-mail that I
7
can remember that was different from the general
8
e-mail or any separate phone call or communication
9
that was asking me specifically to come in and take
10
a test that I can recall.
11
Q. Okay. Your -- 206 of the Complaint that
12
we looked at, Exhibit 2, says that you tried to
13
apply for an exemption from masking and testing but
14
that was not granted. Is that correct?
15
A. That's correct.
16
Q. And was that to be a medical exemption
17
or religious exemption?
18
A. Religious exemption.
19
Q. And what were you told about why that
20
was not granted?
21
A. I don't recall if there was a reason
22
given.
23
Q. Why did you feel like you needed that
24
exemption if you had the vaccine exemption?
Page 31
1
mask being sent in for the lab test.
2
Q. Do you remember anything else about that
3
study or that article, like who wrote them or where
4
the publication was?
5
A. I don't, but I would probably recognize
6
it again. If it's helpful to you, I could look for
7
it.
8
Q. Melena doesn't want you to do any
9
homework.
10
A. Okay.
11
Q. That's okay.
12
A. Okay.
13
MS. SIEBERT: You do enough homework for your
14
MBA.
15
MS. RICCHIUTO: Witnesses are so nice, though,
16
aren't they sometimes?
17
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
18
Q. I won't ask you to do that. I just was
19
curious if you remembered any other details about
20
it.
21
Okay. So, masks make it hard to get
22
oxygen. They have bacteria. And those are
23
concerns that are tied to your religious beliefs?
24
A. Correct.
Page 30
1
A. I don't -- for me, the testing
2
requirement is especially invasive and I believe
3
that masks are very unhealthy. So, my religious
4
beliefs I feel are tied to my judgment and my
5
discernment and I am not comfortable with it.
6
Q. Let's talk about masks being unhealthy.
7
Tell me what's the basis for that belief.
8
A. I believe they restrict breathing.
9
They're harder to, you know, get oxygen when you're
10
wearing them.
11
And I've also seen studies, there was a
12
recent study that -- where somebody had sent a mask
13
to a lab and it came back with lots of different
14
bacteria and appeared to be pretty unhealthy to me.
15
Q. Was there any information in that study
16
about how long that mask had been worn or where or
17
by how many people?
18
A. I don't recall.
19
Q. How did you become aware of that study?
20
A. I don't remember. I'm guessing through
21
social media feed.
22
Q. Did you read the actual study or did you
23
read an article about the study?
24
A. I saw the article that had mentioned the
Page 32
1
Q. Any other harm that you would experience
2
if you had to wear a mask for two hours and 40
3
minutes a week in your MBA program?
4
A. The other concerns are more I guess
5
related to potential in-class impact. I do worry
6
that they could cause folks to sort of discriminate
7
against others that do have masks.
8
I also know through my experience being
9
on campus and participating in class discussion in
10
a really large room was already very difficult.
11
Many times the professor had challenges and had
12
difficulty hearing everybody speak up in the room.
13
So, I feel that adding a mask on top of that would
14
make it even more difficult to communicate with the
15
class.
16
And some classes do have a classroom
17
participation component to them in terms of
18
grading. So, that's also a concern.
19
And then I also have concerns that, you
20
know, others may not want to work in a group with
21
me if I'm the only one, for instance, that is
22
required to wear a mask.
23
But those are my other additional
24
concerns with masks.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 8 of 12
9 (Pages 33 to 36)
Page 33
1
Q. Okay. The class that -- how many
2
classes will you have next quarter when you're back
3
on campus?
4
A. It remains to be seen. I -- we don't
5
register for a few more days. I believe I'm
6
required to take 7-1/2 credits if I'm -- if I'm
7
accurate on that, which would equate to three
8
classes. Two three-hour classes and one
9
one-and-a-half hour class I believe would be the
10
breakdown.
11
Q. Do you have any idea of the size that
12
those classes will be based on kind of what you
13
have left to take?
14
A. I don't because when I was on campus,
15
I'm pretty certain that all the classes that I was
16
in were considered the core classes that the entire
17
cohort has to take.
18
So, my expectation would be that they
19
would be a little bit smaller in classes that
20
aren't considered core classes and the elective
21
classes, but I wouldn't be able to give you a great
22
guess since I haven't been on campus for those
23
elective classes yet.
24
Q. Okay. But is it right that you only
Page 35
1
keeping track of who is participating and he's
2
included that in his sort of grading rubric.
3
He says if you are participating
4
frequently and it's sort of normal feedback or
5
input, you fall into one sort of grading bucket.
6
And if you're also providing really fantastic
7
feedback and viewpoints, then that kind of puts you
8
in another category in terms of his grading scale.
9
So, I think each professor has
10
approached it a little bit differently, but I think
11
they've overall done a good job of trying to get
12
group participation out of the online environment.
13
Q. Do you have any reason to think that
14
they wouldn't apply the same effort to get
15
participation for students who are masked?
16
A. Can you maybe restate that?
17
Q. Sure. I think that you told me that one
18
of the things that you're worried about is being
19
able to participate in your in-person classes with
20
a mask on. Is that right?
21
A. That's right.
22
Q. And I think I understood you to say that
23
in the virtual environment, professors are doing a
24
pretty good job of figuring out ways to gauge
Page 34
1
have elective classes left?
2
A. I think that's right. I don't want to
3
say for certain. I may still have one core class
4
left. I haven't looked at the registration
5
schedule yet for next quarter.
6
Q. I was just trying to discern whether we
7
had any way to predict whether you would be in one
8
of those really large rooms or if we thought you
9
might have smaller classes this next quarter.
10
A. I see. Yeah. I don't have a way to
11
predict that right now I don't think.
12
Q. Okay. The participation component of
13
your class, has that been a component of your
14
classes while you've been virtual?
15
A. It has.
16
Q. And has being virtual impaired your
17
ability to obtain that element of your grade?
18
A. I don't think so. I think professors
19
are still trying to figure that out and how they
20
marry class participation with the virtual
21
environment, and some have done that through the
22
use of discussion boards.
23
I'm actually in a class right now where
24
the professor, he's made it obvious that he's
Page 36
1
participation even though it's something new for
2
all of us. Is that accurate?
3
A. That's accurate.
4
Q. So, I guess I was just wondering, you
5
know, what's the reason or is there any expectation
6
that professors would try less hard with students
7
who are masked next quarter to assign them fair
8
participation given your observations that they
9
have done a good job with that in the virtual
10
environment?
11
A. Oh. I don't think that they would try
12
less to encourage participation. But I can see a
13
situation where they're frustrated by somebody
14
trying to communicate through masks, because I know
15
that there was already some frustration
16
demonstrated when masks weren't required about
17
professors not being able to hear students very
18
well. One had even tried to place these kind of
19
table microphones around the room, and that --
20
those didn't work. And, so, I know that on its own
21
was even challenging and frustrating for a
22
professor.
23
So, that's my thought process.
24
Q. Do you know if that professor, if that
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 9 of 12
10 (Pages 37 to 40)
Page 37
1
frustration that you perceived, if that impacted
2
the professor's grading?
3
A. I don't know.
4
Q. And have any of the professors that you
5
could have in the fall issued any kind of, you
6
know, sort of expectations about masking next
7
quarter and whether that will impact participation
8
grades?
9
A. Can you ask it again?
10
Q. Have any of the professors that you
11
could possibly have next quarter published anything
12
saying, "Here's how I grade my class.
13
Participation is really important. If you wear a
14
mask, that's going to impact negatively your
15
grade"?
16
A. Not to my knowledge.
17
Q. Your concern about people not wanting to
18
work in a group with you, what is that based on?
19
A. Well, I'm concerned that the mask is
20
sort of an indication and a giveaway that I haven't
21
been vaccinated, and I'm concerned that some
22
students may be fearful of that and may not want me
23
to be in a close circle with them in breakout
24
groups for discussions or in larger group projects.
Page 39
1
have been vaccinated are at risk for potentially
2
being exposed to, for example, a variant that
3
wasn't covered by their vaccine if they're exposed
4
to somebody who is not vaccinated?
5
A. I -- I don't know. I wouldn't want to
6
speculate that -- speculate on that. I would leave
7
that to the data and the medical experts. But I
8
don't have a firm opinion on it.
9
Q. Are there other -- I don't need to know
10
what they are, but are there other medical
11
procedures or treatments over the course of your
12
life that you have declined for religious reasons?
13
A. Not that I can think of.
14
Q. Okay. I think the other aspect of the
15
extra requirements that you're objecting to in
16
paragraph 206 is testing.
17
Tell me how you will be harmed if you
18
are tested for COVID.
19
A. I think it depends a little bit on the
20
test. I feel that the testing that I have see that
21
requires a swab inserted very far up into the nasal
22
cavity is a problem for me. If there were a test
23
available that was less invasive, I don't think I
24
would have the same reaction to it.
Page 38
1
Q. Do you typically, MBA students in your
2
program, do you typically choose your groups for
3
group projects?
4
A. Usually.
5
Q. So they're not assigned?
6
A. Not typically.
7
Q. When you said they may be -- other
8
students may be fearful, why would they be fearful?
9
A. Just from observing societal commentary
10
and seeing how some have reacted.
11
Q. To what?
12
A. To being around people that are not
13
vaccinated.
14
Q. Well, what are they reacting to or what
15
are they worried about?
16
A. It seems to me that they're worried that
17
even though they're vaccinated that somehow
18
somebody who is not vaccinated is going to infect
19
them.
20
Q. Do you have a view about whether that's
21
a risk to students who are vaccinated?
22
A. Do I have -- sorry. Can you say that
23
again?
24
Q. Yeah. Do you believe that students who
Page 40
1
Q. What's the problem for you -- I think
2
you said it's a problem for you. What's the
3
problem for you with the swab in the nasal cavity?
4
A. I don't like how far it's inserted. It
5
feels like it's -- it's too far. It's too much of
6
an intrusion I feel like.
7
Q. And, again, is that a religious view or
8
some other view?
9
A. It's tied to religious views, yes.
10
Q. So, if the swab, for example, didn't go
11
as far in the nasal cavity, would you have -- would
12
your religious view change?
13
A. I would be more comfortable with a test
14
that was much more surface level.
15
Q. Like what if it was a swab to the
16
fingertip?
17
A. That I would be -- I'd be okay with.
18
Q. No religious objection to that?
19
A. Correct, correct.
20
Q. What about a test using saliva?
21
A. I think I would be okay with that if I
22
was certain on where that was going and who was
23
accessing it just because of the DNA component of
24
saliva.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 10 of 12
11 (Pages 41 to 44)
Page 41
1
Q. What if it were a blood test?
2
A. I think that would be okay with me.
3
Q. I'm not -- I'm not a scientist. Do you
4
know if there is DNA in blood?
5
A. I'm not a scientist either.
6
Q. Okay.
7
MS. SIEBERT: My avid watching of CSI and Law
8
and Order tells me the answer is yes. But that's
9
not scientific unless Hollywood is science now.
10
MS. RICCHIUTO: I'm sure if it's in a movie
11
it's true, Melena.
12
MS. SIEBERT: It's got to be true.
13
MS. RICCHIUTO: We'll take that.
14
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
15
Q. Let me ask it way, Seth, since neither
16
you nor I nor CSI are the right source for this.
17
Assuming, let's assume for a
18
hypothetical, that blood contains DNA just the same
19
as saliva does; but you said you were maybe
20
comfortable with saliva and definitely comfortable
21
with blood, is that right?
22
A. That's right.
23
Q. Are there any other ways that you are
24
harmed, if you don't have -- let me ask it this
Page 43
1
A. It's true.
2
Q. Okay. So, if the injunction is not
3
granted, we'll know that before the middle of
4
August and you'll make your decision then, is that
5
your testimony?
6
A. That is my testimony, yes.
7
Q. Just one second here.
8
MS. RICCHIUTO: That's all the questions I
9
have for you now.
10
Melena, do you have any questions?
11
MS. SIEBERT: I don't.
12
MS. RICCHIUTO: Okay.
13
THE REPORTER: Read and sign on all of these?
14
MS. SIEBERT: Yes, please. Thank you.
15
(Time noted: 7:53 p.m.)
16
FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NAUGHT
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page 42
1
way.
2
If you don't have to be tested for COVID
3
by a swab in the nasal cavity, are you harmed by
4
the testing requirement?
5
A. Speaking about testing specifically?
6
Q. Yes.
7
A. No. Any harm beyond that in my mind
8
would just be more about inconvenience and what I
9
feel would be unnecessary if I'm not experiencing
10
any symptoms.
11
Q. What are your plans with respect to your
12
attendance at IU next quarter if the injunction is
13
not granted?
14
A. I'm asking myself the same question. I
15
don't know at this point. Obviously, you know,
16
these beliefs are sincerely held enough for me to
17
attach my name to this Complaint. So, it is
18
something that's important to me.
19
But I've tried not to put the cart
20
before the horse, and I think at this point my plan
21
is to cross that bridge when we get there and make
22
that decision at a future time.
23
Q. You're pretty close to graduation,
24
right?
Page 44
1
I, CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968,
2
Registered Professional Reporter and Certified
Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify:
3
That previous to the commencement of the
examination of the witness, the witness was duly
4
sworn to testify the whole truth concerning the
matters herein;
5
That the foregoing deposition transcript
was reported stenographically by me, was thereafter
6
reduced to typewriting under my personal direction
and constitutes a true record of the testimony
7
given and the proceedings had;
That the said deposition was taken
8
before me at the time and place specified;
That the reading and signing by the
9
witness of the deposition transcript was agreed
upon as stated herein;
10
That I am not a relative or employee or
attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of
11
such attorney or counsel for any of the parties
hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in
12
the outcome of this action.
13
__________________________________
14
CORINNE T. MARUT, Certified Reporter
15
(The foregoing certification of this
16
transcript does not apply to any
reproduction of the same by any means, unless under
17
the direct control and/or supervision of the
certifying reporter.)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 11 of 12
12 (Pages 45 to 48)
Page 45
1
INSTRUCTIONS TO WITNESS
2
3
Please read your deposition over
4
carefully and make any necessary corrections. You
5
should state the reason in the appropriate space on
6
the errata sheet for any corrections that are made.
7
After doing so, please sign the errata
8
sheet and date it.
9
You are signing same subject to the
10
changes you have noted on the errata sheet, which
11
will be attached to your deposition.
12
It is imperative that you return the
13
original errata sheet to the deposing attorney
14
within thirty (30) days of receipt of the
15
deposition transcript by you. If you fail to do
16
so, the deposition transcript may be deemed to be
17
accurate and may be used in court.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page 47
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
2
FORT WAYNE DIVISION
3
RYAN KLAASSEN, et al., )
4
)
Plaintiffs, )
5
) CASE NO.
-vs- ) 1:21-cv-00238
6
)
THE TRUSTEES OF INDIANA )
7
UNIVERSITY, )
)
8
Defendant. )
9
AFFIDAVIT
10
I, SETH CROWDER, the undersigned
11
affiant, being first duly sworn, on oath say that
the testimony given at my deposition at the time
12
and place aforesaid is the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, and that I have read the
13
foregoing transcript consisting of Pages 1 to 48
inclusive, and do subscribe and make oath that the
14
same is a true, correct, and complete transcript of
my deposition so given as aforesaid, and includes
15
changes, if any, so made by me.
16
FURTHER AFFIANT SAITH NAUGHT.
17
_____________________________
18
AFFIANT, SETH CROWDER
19
20
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO before me
21
this day of , A.D. 20 .
22
_____________________________________
23
Notary Public
24
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LAWYER'S NOTES
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USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-25 filed 07/12/21 page 12 of 12File and source
- File
- gov.uscourts.innd.107499.31.25.pdf
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- 162,593 bytes
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- 5f5fb4ee49631e6ad8b01bf20bd2b764d6c26d3ce638d3b2c81d73ed378246b8
- Original
- archive.org