Court filing
Deposition of Macey Policka — Klaassen v. Indiana University
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2021-07-12 |
U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana · No. 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC · Doc. 31-26 · 2021-07-12 · Docket on CourtListener
Summary
Excerpts from the deposition of Macey Rose Policka, one of the plaintiffs in Klaassen v. The Trustees of Indiana University, Case No. 1:21-cv-00238, in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana, filed July 12, 2021 as document 31-26. The deposition was taken remotely on June 30, 2021 before a certified shorthand reporter, with examination by counsel for the university and counsel for the plaintiffs. The excerpts cover the reporter's preliminaries, the deponent's background as a student, how she learned of the lawsuit, her reading of the complaint and the verification page she signed, and the university's weekly mitigation testing. An index lists two exhibits, a Signed Verification and a Verified Complaint for Declaratory and Injunctive Relief. The closing pages carry a certification for a transcript of Pages 1 to 53 and an errata sheet. The excerpt is 13 pages.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Full text
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
FORT WAYNE DIVISION
RYAN KLAASSEN, JAIME CARINI, )
D.J.B., by and through his )
next friend and father, )
DANIEL G. BAUMGARTNER, )
ASHLEE MORRIS, SETH CROWDER, )
MACEY POLICKA, MARGARET ROTH, )
and NATALIE SPERAZZA, )
)
Plaintiffs, )
) CASE NO.
-vs- ) 1:21-cv-00238
)
THE TRUSTEES OF INDIANA )
UNIVERSITY, )
)
Defendant. )
DEPOSITION OF MACEY ROSE POLICKA
June 30, 2021
Remote oral deposition of MACEY ROSE POLICKA,
commencing at 2:30 p.m., on the above date, before
CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968, Registered
Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter
and Notary Public.
GOLKOW LITIGATION SERVICES
877.370.3377 ph / 917.591.5672 fax
deps@golkow.com
Page 3
1
I N D E X
2
MACEY ROSE POLICKA EXAMINATION
3
BY MS. GUTWEIN................ 4
BY MS. SIEBERT................ 38
4
BY MS. GUTWEIN................ 45
BY MS. SIEBERT................ 46
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E X H I B I T S
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POLICKA DEPOSITION EXHIBIT MARKED FOR ID
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No. 1 Signed Verification 19
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No. 2 Verified Complaint for 21
Declaratory and Injunctive
12
Relief
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Page 2
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APPEARANCES
All Parties Appearing Via Zoom Videoconference
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ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
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THE BOPP LAW FIRM
1 South 6th Street
5
Terre Haute, Indiana 47807
812-232-2434
6
BY: MELENA S. SIEBERT, ESQ.
msiebert@bopplaw.com
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8
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ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
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FAEGRE DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH LLP
300 North Meridian Street, Suite 2500
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Indianapolis, Indiana 46204
317-237-0300
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BY: STEPHANIE GUTWEIN, ESQ.
stephanie.gutwein@faegredrinker.com
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REPORTED BY: CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968
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THE REPORTER: All parties to this deposition
2
to this deposition are appearing remotely and have
3
agreed to the witness being sworn in remotely.
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Due to the nature of remote reporting,
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please pause briefly before speaking to ensure all
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parties are heard completely.
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Counsel will be noted on the
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stenographic record.
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Counsel, do you so stipulate to the
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remote swearing in of the witness?
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MS. SIEBERT: Plaintiffs' counsel does, yes.
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MS. GUTWEIN: As does Defendants.
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(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
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sworn.)
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MACEY ROSE POLICKA,
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called as a witness herein, having been first duly
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sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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EXAMINATION
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BY MS. GUTWEIN:
20
Q. Hi, Macey. Thank you for being here
21
today. My name is Stephanie Gutwein, and I am one
22
of the attorneys for Indiana University. I might
23
refer to that as IU, just to shorten it up.
24
Before we get started, really fast, I
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 1 of 13
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
Page 5
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just want to add for the record that your lawyers
2
and IU's lawyers have agreed that if there are
3
technical issues that we encounter in the course of
4
this virtual deposition, if for some reason we lose
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you or you freeze or I freeze or your lawyer can't
6
hear what I'm saying and isn't able to object,
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we'll pause to make sure we get that resolved
8
before we keep going. If something happens, type
9
it in the chat or just let us know however you can.
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Okay?
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A. (Nodding head.)
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Q. Do you have anyone in the room with you
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right now?
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A. No.
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Q. Okay. If at some point during your
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deposition someone comes into the room, will you
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let me know, please?
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A. Yes.
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Q. Thank you. The other thing that while
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we are doing this deposition and we are on the
21
record, you shouldn't be texting with anyone or
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chatting with anyone or anything like that. Is
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that okay?
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A. Of course.
Page 7
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motions, but...
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Can you think of any reason that you
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wouldn't be able to testify truthfully today?
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A. No. I can't think of anything.
5
Q. Okay. Do you have any notes with you
6
that you brought to your deposition?
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A. No.
8
Q. Okay. If you make any notes during your
9
deposition, will you let me know, please?
10
A. Yes.
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Q. Thank you. If at any point today you
12
don't understand my question, I'm going to ask that
13
you let me know that so I can rephrase it and make
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it a better question. If you answer my question
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and you haven't said that you don't understand it,
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I'm going to assume that you understood the
17
question.
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Can we agree on that?
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A. Yes.
20
Q. Okay. Your attorney might object. She
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might have talked to you about that before. If you
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hear her object, you still can answer my question
23
unless she tells you not to answer. Otherwise you
24
can go ahead and answer.
Page 6
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Q. Okay. Thank you. Have you ever given a
2
deposition before?
3
A. No.
4
Q. Okay. Well, you probably have talked
5
with your lawyers a little bit about it, but
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just -- and I don't want to know about that, but
7
just to review what the process is going to be
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like.
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We're just here for me to ask you some
10
questions. There is no right or wrong answers as
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long as they're truthful. It's just for me to find
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out some information.
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You just gave an oath to the Court
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Reporter and you understand that you have to
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testify truthfully today to the best of your
16
ability?
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A. Yes.
18
Q. Okay. And I see you nodding your head.
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So, I'll just remind you the Court Reporter can
20
only take down words that you say out loud.
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So, we have to make sure, and I will try
22
to help you and your lawyer will also try to help
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I'm sure, that you say your answers out loud. It's
24
natural for everybody to make hand motions and head
Page 8
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Are you comfortable with my calling you
2
Macey or would you like me to refer to you as
3
something else?
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A. Macey is fine.
5
Q. Okay. All right. Thank you. Can you
6
please state your full name for the record.
7
A. Yeah. Macey Rose Policka.
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Q. Will you spell your last name, please.
9
A. P-o-l-i-c-k-a.
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Q. Thank you. How old are you, Macey?
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A. I am 22.
12
Q. Okay. Are you aware that one of your
13
co-Plaintiffs in the lawsuit that this deposition
14
is being taken in was deposed yesterday?
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A. No.
16
Q. Okay. So I assume, then, you haven't
17
read any transcript of that deposition. Is that
18
right?
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A. Correct.
20
Q. Where have you been living this summer?
21
A. I've been living in Bloomington.
22
Q. Is that where you lived over the course
23
of last school year?
24
A. Yes.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 2 of 13
3 (Pages 9 to 12)
Page 9
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Q. Where in Bloomington do you live?
2
A. I live just west of the football
3
stadium.
4
Q. Okay. I went to IU too.
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A. Awesome.
6
Q. Familiar with the campus.
7
And I understand that you're going to be
8
an incoming senior, is that right?
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A. I'm more of a super senior. This is my
10
fifth year.
11
Q. Okay. So, are you -- do you have a full
12
year planned or will it just be part of a year?
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A. Just one semester.
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Q. What are you studying?
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A. I'm studying theater, English and
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medieval studies.
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Q. Are you looking forward to being
18
finished?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. So, have you left Bloomington at all
21
since last school year or did you just stay down
22
there?
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A. I went home sometimes to visit my
24
family, but otherwise I stay and live here.
Page 11
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you about it, what was your initial reaction?
2
A. I was curious about it. I wanted to
3
know more.
4
Q. What made you curious about it?
5
A. I don't really know. I don't remember
6
IU getting any lawsuits lately. So, it was kind of
7
new to me, and I was curious to know more about it
8
since it was brand-new information.
9
Q. Okay. Had you thought about wanting to
10
file a claim against IU before your father brought
11
it to you?
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A. No.
13
Q. Have you ever sued anyone else before?
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A. No.
15
Q. Do you know whether your father had
16
contacted a lawyer, your lawyers or whether your
17
lawyers contacted your father?
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A. I think my father contacted the lawyers.
19
Q. Okay. Do you remember if you read the
20
Complaint before it was filed?
21
A. Yes, I read the Complaint.
22
Q. Did you read all the exhibits to the
23
Complaint?
24
A. Yes.
Page 10
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Q. So, your residence is there?
2
A. Um-hmm.
3
Q. Where is home for your family that you
4
visited?
5
A. Cicero, Indiana.
6
Q. And is where you're living now where you
7
will be living for this coming school year?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. Okay. How did you come to learn about
10
this lawsuit that you are a Plaintiff in?
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A. My father told me about it.
12
Q. And when -- (audio difficulty). Sorry.
13
Forgive me.
14
When did he -- when did you first talk
15
to your father about it?
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A. I don't remember.
17
Q. If -- would it have been a matter of
18
months ago, weeks ago, days?
19
A. Probably weeks ago, but I don't really
20
remember.
21
Q. Do you know if it was before the lawsuit
22
was filed?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. Okay. And when your father talked to
Page 12
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Q. Do you remember signing a verification
2
page?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. What do you understand to be the
5
significance of that verification page?
6
A. It's to certify, like to certify that I
7
understand what the Complaint is and why the
8
lawsuit is moving forward.
9
Q. Okay. Do you understand that that
10
verification page means that you're confirming that
11
all of the allegations about you in the Complaint
12
are true?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. Okay. Do you still agree with that
15
today?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. I want to talk a little bit about COVID,
18
which has dominated everybody's lives for the last
19
16 months.
20
Have you ever had COVID?
21
A. No.
22
Q. Do you know if anyone in your family has
23
had COVID?
24
A. Yes.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 3 of 13
4 (Pages 13 to 16)
Page 13
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Q. Who in your family has had COVID?
2
A. My twin brother.
3
Q. And is he -- I assume he's the same age
4
since you're twins?
5
A. Yeah.
6
Q. Okay.
7
MS. SIEBERT: Older or younger, Macey?
8
THE WITNESS: Me by a minute.
9
MS. SIEBERT: Excellent, excellent. The older
10
sister.
11
BY MS. GUTWEIN:
12
Q. Does he live somewhere else apart from
13
you?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. So, do you have any understanding of
16
what his experience with COVID was like?
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. What do you know about that?
19
A. His symptoms were mild. He did lose his
20
sense of smell and taste. But it felt like a flu
21
to him.
22
Q. Do you know about how long he felt sick?
23
A. I don't remember exactly, but it might
24
have been a week.
Page 15
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Q. What was that experience like for you?
2
A. It was easy. I'm a homebody. So, the
3
COVID pandemic never bothered me.
4
Q. Do you have any roommates?
5
A. No. I live alone.
6
Q. Okay. Did you have to undergo any COVID
7
testing while you were at IU last year?
8
A. Yes. We had the weekly mitigation
9
testing.
10
Q. Okay. And how was that for you? What
11
was that like?
12
A. It was okay. It took five minutes at
13
most.
14
Q. Can you walk me through what that
15
process was like?
16
A. Sure. I would drive over to the testing
17
site and walk through, and they would ask me a few
18
questions like whether I have eaten or not 30
19
minutes prior to the test. And if you answer no to
20
their questions, you move forward.
21
You scan your Crimson Card and then you
22
receive the vial and they confirm that the vial is
23
yours. And then you take the test, and then you
24
turn it in to a person who gives you a sanitation
Page 14
1
Q. And where does your brother live?
2
A. He lives in Louisville, Kentucky.
3
Q. Do you know whether he has any reason to
4
know how he contracted COVID?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. What is that?
7
A. His roommates caught it first and they
8
spread it to him.
9
Q. That stinks. Have you been vaccinated
10
for COVID?
11
A. No.
12
Q. Do you have any plans to get vaccinated?
13
A. No.
14
Q. Do you know whether anyone in your
15
immediate family has been vaccinated?
16
A. Yes. No one has been vaccinated in my
17
family.
18
Q. Were you attending IU last year
19
throughout the COVID pandemic, so the school year
20
2020 through 2021?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. Did you live in Bloomington on or by
23
campus during that time?
24
A. Yes.
Page 16
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wipe. And you clean it, stick it into the sample
2
tray, use hand sanitizer and leave.
3
Q. When you said -- there was part of that
4
where you said then you take the test. Is that --
5
was it, you know, a swab in your nose or was it
6
something else?
7
A. It was a saliva test.
8
Q. A saliva test. Was that a swab in your
9
mouth?
10
A. It was a vial that we had to spit into.
11
Q. Oh, okay. That's helpful. Thank you.
12
So, you didn't ever have to put anything
13
in your body it sounds like?
14
A. Right.
15
Q. Okay. When you took those tests, would
16
you say that you suffered harm at all from taking
17
them?
18
A. No.
19
Q. Okay. It sounds like based on your
20
earlier answers that your results were always
21
negative?
22
A. Right.
23
Q. That must be nice. Do you know -- I
24
assume they'd tell you if your results are
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 4 of 13
5 (Pages 17 to 20)
Page 17
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positive?
2
A. Yes.
3
Q. Do they tell you either way?
4
A. Yeah, they tell you if it is positive or
5
negative.
6
Q. Okay. When you were at IU over the last
7
school year, did you have to wear a mask?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. And I'm trying to think of a way to ask
10
that that's not sort of very generic.
11
What were sort of the parameters under
12
which you were obligated to wear a mask?
13
A. I don't understand the question.
14
Q. That's fair.
15
A. Could you rephrase it.
16
Q. When you were at IU, when did you have
17
to wear a mask?
18
A. I had to wear the mask on the bus and
19
anywhere on campus, in the buildings, even in the
20
classrooms during lectures. You couldn't take it
21
off at any point unless you were off campus.
22
Q. And did you ride the bus sometimes
23
during this time?
24
A. Yes.
Page 19
1
A. Not that I remember.
2
Q. Okay. Outside of the masking that you
3
just described, were there circumstances when you
4
ever wore a mask if you went other places or
5
anything like that?
6
A. Yes.
7
Q. Can you tell me about what some of those
8
experiences were?
9
A. Yes. I would wear a mask in grocery
10
stores, restaurants, really anywhere in public that
11
had a sign on their front door saying that they
12
required a mask.
13
Q. Okay. All right. I'm going to -- do
14
you have the link to the exhibit platform?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. You do. Okay. We don't have very many
17
today. So, don't worry, it won't take very long.
18
I'm going to add the first one there now. So, give
19
me just a second.
20
(WHEREUPON, Policka Deposition
21
Exhibit No. 1 was marked for
22
identification: Signed
23
Verification.)
24
BY MS. GUTWEIN:
Page 18
1
Q. And you would wear a mask, you would
2
comply with that policy?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. Did you attend some classes or lectures
5
also, you know, during the 2020 through 2021 school
6
year?
7
A. Yes.
8
Q. In person?
9
A. Right.
10
Q. Were some of your classes online or were
11
they all in person?
12
A. Some were online. Some were in person.
13
Q. Okay. And when you attended those
14
in-person lectures, did you also comply with the
15
masking policy?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. Do you feel like you suffered any harm
18
from having to mask in those situations you just
19
described?
20
A. No.
21
Q. Outside of the testing that you just
22
described, sort of I think you called it mitigation
23
testing, did you ever get any other type of COVID
24
test?
Page 20
1
Q. Okay. If you refresh your screen, you
2
should see a pdf. Do you see that pdf there?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. Do you recognize this document?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. And it looks to me like the signature at
7
the bottom is maybe an electronic signature?
8
A. Right.
9
Q. Notwithstanding that it's electronic,
10
did you intend that to reflect your signature on
11
this document?
12
A. Yes.
13
Q. Okay. I know it's hard with we're all
14
different places but...
15
Okay. So, this document, as we talked
16
about earlier, relates to, you know, the
17
allegations in the Complaint. So, the next thing I
18
want to do is talk a little bit about those
19
allegations.
20
So, I'm going to add the Complaint now
21
so we can talk about that. So, if you refresh your
22
screen, you should see that.
23
(Clarification requested by the
24
reporter.)
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 5 of 13
6 (Pages 21 to 24)
Page 21
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MS. GUTWEIN: The verification page is
2
Exhibit 1 and the Complaint is Exhibit 2.
3
(WHEREUPON, Policka Deposition
4
Exhibit No. 2 was marked for
5
identification: Verified Complaint
6
for Declaratory and Injunctive
7
Relief.)
8
BY MS. GUTWEIN:
9
Q. Do you see the Complaint, Macey?
10
A. Yes.
11
Q. Okay. And you're welcome to, you know,
12
scroll as much as you want. We are going to talk
13
about allegations that are on page 44. So, at the
14
top left, if you want to type 44 into that box, you
15
can get there quickly too.
16
A. Um-hmm.
17
Q. Okay. So, other than alleging your
18
residency at the very beginning of the Complaint,
19
the first paragraph that I see that talks about you
20
is paragraph 207.
21
Do you see that?
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. Is it right that you read these
24
paragraphs before you signed that verification
Page 23
1
is a social separation and can expose the person
2
wearing a mask as potentially being someone who
3
isn't vaccinated and that could risk being
4
alienated or judged. Same would apply with the
5
testing.
6
Q. Okay. Let's -- can we take that in
7
pieces just a little bit.
8
A. Sure.
9
Q. Have you yet, since you're living in
10
Bloomington and near campus, have you so far
11
experienced the -- hang on one second. My computer
12
is freezing -- the alienation or being judged that
13
you just described?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. How so?
16
A. My fellow students and a professor sort
17
of judged me when I told them I wasn't vaccinated.
18
Q. And when you say sort of judged you, can
19
you tell me more about what happened?
20
A. Yeah. They started pushing questions on
21
me about why I wasn't vaccinated, and I didn't
22
think it was their place to question it.
23
Q. Okay. So, first of all, it sounds like
24
you said that you told them that you were not
Page 22
1
page?
2
A. Yes.
3
Q. And it says here that you have a
4
sincerely held religious objection to the vaccine.
5
Is that right?
6
A. Yes.
7
Q. So, you have sought and have been
8
granted a religious exemption to the vaccine?
9
A. Right.
10
Q. Do you understand that that exemption
11
means that you can continue on with school in the
12
fall and you won't be subject to the requirement
13
that you have to have a COVID vaccination?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. Then in paragraph 208 it says that you
16
also object generally to the extra requirements of
17
masks and testing applied to you. Do you agree
18
with that?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. Can we talk a little bit about why --
21
what aspects of those extra requirements do you
22
object to?
23
A. I object to how some people don't have
24
to wear a mask and some people do. I think there
Page 24
1
vaccinated, is that right?
2
A. Right.
3
Q. So, whatever their reaction was, it
4
sounds like was not based on the fact that you were
5
wearing a mask. Is that right?
6
A. I do not understand the question. Could
7
you rephrase it, please.
8
Q. Yeah, sure. When we were talking a
9
couple minutes ago, you said that your objection to
10
the masking and testing policy is in part that
11
you're worried about feeling judged or alienated
12
because of this I think what you said was social
13
separation that you're worried it would cause
14
because it might cause people to believe that
15
people who are wearing masks are unvaccinated.
16
Right?
17
And I asked you whether you'd
18
experienced being judged at all yet, and I think
19
what you're describing to me is an experience where
20
you felt judged for being unvaccinated but it's not
21
an experience where you felt judged for wearing a
22
mask. Is that right?
23
A. Right.
24
Q. Okay. So, I want to talk about those
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 6 of 13
7 (Pages 25 to 28)
Page 25
1
two different things.
2
Before we get back to this experience
3
you were just describing, have you had any
4
experiences where you felt judged for wearing a
5
mask in the context of being at IU?
6
A. No.
7
Q. Okay. Have you had any experiences
8
where you felt alienated for wearing a mask in the
9
context of being at IU?
10
A. No.
11
Q. Okay. What about being tested, have you
12
had any experience where you felt judged or
13
alienated for being tested while at IU?
14
A. No.
15
Q. So, the experience you did have it
16
sounds like was potentially feeling judged by your
17
peers or your teacher I think you said for choosing
18
not to get vaccinated, right?
19
A. Right.
20
Q. You said they asked you some questions.
21
Do you remember what kinds of questions they asked
22
you?
23
A. Sort of. I do remember them asking me
24
exactly why I haven't gotten the vaccine yet, and
Page 27
1
A. Similar to what I said before with the
2
potential alienation, I don't think it's fair to
3
let some people not wear a mask or take part in
4
what I think is a two-week -- like two-times-a-week
5
testing now and also forcing some people to wear
6
the mask or do the two-day-testing-per-week.
7
Q. Okay. So, is that -- it's more of a
8
fairness issue as to how certain -- a certain group
9
of people is being treated as compared to another
10
group, not so much that you object to actually
11
whether or not you have to wear a mask, but that
12
you might have to but that other people wouldn't?
13
A. Yeah. It's a fairness thing.
14
Q. So, if everyone had to wear a mask the
15
same amount, would you object to that?
16
A. No. If everyone wore a mask, I would be
17
okay with it.
18
Q. What about if everyone had to be tested
19
the same frequency?
20
A. Yeah. If everyone had to be tested, I
21
would be okay with it.
22
Q. Okay. So, in -- if we look back at
23
paragraph 208, it says that you object to the extra
24
requirements given their unreasonableness. Can you
Page 26
1
they asked me if I had any medical issues that
2
would be why I haven't gotten the vaccine.
3
Q. Okay. So, was it -- is there anything
4
that they explicitly said that was, you know,
5
derogatory or negative towards you or was it sort
6
of you were reading between the lines of their
7
questions and you felt, you know, that they were
8
implicitly judging you?
9
A. I was reading between the lines.
10
Q. Okay. I'm sorry you felt that way.
11
That stinks.
12
With respect to your objections to the
13
masking and testing requirement, is it fair to say,
14
then, that your concerns about being judged or
15
feeling alienated are worries that you have about
16
what might happen in the fall of 2021?
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. Besides, and I just want to make sure
19
that I have, besides what you described what your
20
concerns were, which is the risk of being alienated
21
or judged, are there any other objections that you
22
have to the masking or the testing requirements?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. Okay. What are those?
Page 28
1
tell me what you think is unreasonable about the
2
masking and testing policies?
3
A. Yes. So, people in my age group have
4
minimal risk of COVID. My twin brother experienced
5
very mild symptoms of COVID, and I would guess that
6
my reaction would be the same, if not similar.
7
What else?
8
People who are vaccinated should not be
9
concerned about people who are not vaccinated
10
because the vaccine should work. They shouldn't be
11
concerned that they will catch COVID from someone
12
who is not vaccinated if they are vaccinated.
13
And I'm not sure if it is entirely
14
correct, but there was a study done recently saying
15
that vegans and pescatarians are 57 to 73% less
16
likely to contract dangerous COVID cases. I am
17
vegan.
18
Q. Okay. Any other reason that you think
19
that the masking/testing policies are unreasonable?
20
A. For me personally, I cannot think of
21
anything else.
22
Q. Okay. And when you're looking at the
23
screen, are you looking at the Complaint or are you
24
looking at something else?
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 7 of 13
8 (Pages 29 to 32)
Page 29
1
A. I am looking at the Complaint.
2
Q. Okay. So, I want to talk about each of
3
those reasons that you just gave me. Is that okay?
4
A. Sure.
5
Q. Okay. All right. You said that people
6
in your age group have minimal risk of COVID, and
7
you mentioned your twin brother.
8
What is your understanding of that
9
people in your age group have minimal risk of COVID
10
based on?
11
A. Based on studies I have read.
12
Q. Okay. Do you know which studies those
13
are?
14
A. Not at the top of my head. I'm not very
15
good at remembering names and numbers.
16
Q. Okay. Fair. Have you talked to any
17
medical professionals about the risk that COVID
18
might pose to you?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. And what have those professionals told
21
you?
22
A. They told me that the risks of the
23
vaccine are not worth it. You should not get the
24
vaccine because of the statistics of how minimal
Page 31
1
Doctorate, though. The other one, I think he is a
2
general doctor who specializes in other things as
3
well.
4
Q. Okay. Besides these two doctors'
5
opinions and your experience with your brother's
6
experience with COVID, is there any other basis for
7
your -- and I guess -- I'm sorry -- you said you
8
also had read some studies.
9
Any other basis for your thinking that
10
people in your age group have minimal risk from
11
COVID?
12
A. Not that I can think of.
13
Q. Okay. And when you say your age group,
14
what does that mean to you?
15
A. That would mean people who are in their
16
30s and under, like 30 years old and younger.
17
Q. Okay. You also said that you think
18
people who are vaccinated should not be concerned
19
about people who are unvaccinated. Is that right?
20
A. Right.
21
Q. Why do you think that?
22
A. Because the vaccine is supposedly
23
supposed to work and from what I've seen
24
statistically, the vaccine seems to be working.
Page 30
1
the risk is for someone of my age group and to put
2
my life or well-being at risk for the potential
3
side effects of the vaccine is not worth it.
4
Q. And is it one medical professional that
5
told you this or more than one?
6
A. More than one.
7
Q. Where did you come into contact with
8
these medical professionals?
9
A. I have had one doctor in the past, and I
10
have been receiving e-mails from him; and another
11
doctor I have visited recently that I have been
12
referred to.
13
Q. Are these doctors in Bloomington?
14
A. No.
15
Q. So, it sounds like you have e-mails from
16
at least one of the doctors that might reflect this
17
advice?
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. Okay. Are these like general
20
practitioners? Are they general doctors or do they
21
have a specialty?
22
A. I cannot remember off the top of my head
23
what their exact specialty is. One of them is more
24
of like a holistic health doctor. He does have a
Page 32
1
So, I do not see why someone who is vaccinated
2
should be concerned about catching COVID from
3
someone who is not vaccinated if the vaccine is
4
supposed to work.
5
Q. When you say that the vaccine seems to
6
be working, what do you mean by that?
7
A. The statistics that have been posted
8
about the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine are on
9
the high side, which suggests that the vaccine is
10
pretty effective in preventing the -- contracting
11
COVID.
12
Q. Have the statistics that you've seen
13
concerned whether vaccinated individuals can
14
contract COVID or whether they become severely ill
15
or die if they do contract COVID?
16
A. I think they do take it into account.
17
Q. Take what into account?
18
A. The -- so, there is the percentage of
19
effectiveness, and whatever is left over is what
20
the cases of people who have still gotten COVID
21
despite getting a vaccine.
22
Q. Okay. So, you acknowledge that there
23
are still some instances in which a vaccinated
24
person can catch COVID?
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 8 of 13
9 (Pages 33 to 36)
Page 33
1
A. Yes. However, statistically, the odds
2
seem pretty low.
3
Q. And the study that you mentioned about
4
vegetarians and pescatarians I think you said or
5
vegans maybe. Vegans and pescatarians. I'm sorry.
6
A. Right.
7
Q. Do you know where you saw that study?
8
A. It is on Healthline I think. There are
9
different sources that have spoken about the study.
10
Q. Is your brother vegan or pescatarian?
11
A. No.
12
Q. Okay. So, the -- the things that we
13
just talked about, the minimal risk of COVID to
14
your age group, the thought that people who are
15
vaccinated shouldn't be concerned about people who
16
are unvaccinated, and the study that you were
17
talking about about vegetarians or vegans, do those
18
relate to why you don't -- you don't think it's
19
necessary to get vaccinated or do those also relate
20
to why you don't think it's necessary to be masking
21
or be tested for COVID?
22
A. I think they would apply to both. They
23
are just some of the reasons.
24
Q. Okay. Are there other reasons that you
Page 35
1
are unvaccinated because vaccines could work, I
2
took that to mean that people who are vaccinated
3
shouldn't worry if an unvaccinated person isn't
4
wearing a mask because the vaccinated person is, in
5
your view, less likely to contract COVID even if
6
the unvaccinated person has it?
7
A. Right.
8
Q. So, what about the person who isn't
9
vaccinated but wishes they could be. Should they
10
be concerned around someone who is unvaccinated and
11
not wearing a mask?
12
A. Depending on the people they're
13
surrounding themselves with. With people of our
14
age group, I think they would be less concerned
15
since it's been statistically shown that risks of
16
COVID are pretty low with our age group.
17
I just don't believe that someone else's
18
bodily autonomy and integrity should be affected by
19
somebody else.
20
Q. Okay. When you wore a mask last year on
21
campus, did you feel like your bodily integrity or
22
autonomy was affected?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. Did you raise any objection to the
Page 34
1
don't think that the masking or testing policies
2
are reasonable?
3
A. For the testing and masking, no. But
4
for the vaccine itself, yes.
5
Q. Okay. But you have an exemption from
6
the vaccine policy, right?
7
A. Right.
8
Q. Do you agree that some individuals might
9
have medical reasons that they can't get vaccinated
10
even if they'd like to?
11
A. Right. Yes.
12
Q. How does your thinking, you know, where
13
you said people who are vaccinated shouldn't be
14
concerned about people who are unvaccinated, how do
15
the people who can't get vaccinated even though
16
they wish they could fit into that?
17
A. So, they would continue doing what we've
18
been doing all along, which is they can wear a mask
19
by choice if they wish, they can social distance
20
and wash their hands regularly, try not to touch
21
surfaces in public that may be dirty. Just doing
22
their part to protect themselves.
23
Q. Okay. When you said that people who are
24
vaccinated shouldn't be concerned about people who
Page 36
1
masking policy then?
2
A. No, since everybody had to do it.
3
Q. So, that goes back to the fairness point
4
that you were making?
5
A. Right.
6
Q. So, you don't think that masking and
7
testing are necessary, but if everybody had to do
8
it you wouldn't have an objection to it?
9
A. Not necessarily. It would be an
10
inconvenience to me, but if everybody had to do it,
11
I would probably take part in it as well.
12
Q. We have talked about your concerns about
13
the potential for being judged or alienated if the
14
Court were to say, "Yeah, IU, you can continue to
15
have the masking and testing policies" that we're
16
talking about.
17
Besides your concerns about being judged
18
or feeling alienated, is there any other way that
19
you think you would be harmed if you had to comply
20
with the masking and the testing policies?
21
A. No.
22
Q. Okay. If the Court tells IU that it
23
can -- it can move forward with its masking and
24
testing policies, what does that mean for you going
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 9 of 13
10 (Pages 37 to 40)
Page 37
1
forward with school?
2
A. I am a transfer student. I transferred
3
from New Orleans. So, that set my course work
4
behind quite a bit, so I had to put extra time into
5
my education here at IU to catch up.
6
Since I've put so much time and effort
7
into it and I'm fortunate to have my parents pay
8
for the tuition, they have poured a lot of money
9
into my education, I would just have to deal with
10
it and just push forward for one more semester.
11
Q. Okay. This is a little bit unrelated
12
but just curious. Where in New Orleans were you?
13
A. Loyola University right next to Tulane.
14
Q. I spent a good amount of time after the
15
hurricanes rebuilding stuff down there. So...
16
A. Nice.
17
Q. It's a lovely city.
18
A. It sure is.
19
Q. Yeah. Do you miss it sometimes?
20
A. Absolutely. All the time.
21
MS. GUTWEIN: Okay. Melena, I think I don't
22
have anything else. I don't know if you --
23
MS. SIEBERT: I have just a couple follow-ups,
24
but I don't think it will take long.
Page 39
1
A. Yes. I was at like an after-class
2
summer party. My professor held it at his house,
3
and some of my classmates showed up to celebrate
4
the end of the semester.
5
Q. Okay. And I think you also were talking
6
about in general the fairness with the mask and the
7
testing and so forth, and you mentioned I believe
8
that you did not feel that risk of alienation last
9
year when you had to wear a mask. Is that correct?
10
A. Right.
11
Q. Was it more the -- was it the case last
12
year when you had to wear a mask that generally
13
speaking everybody else was too?
14
A. Yeah, everyone else was wearing a mask.
15
So, everybody blended in.
16
Q. Do you think that that lowered in
17
general the risk of that same kind of alienation --
18
A. Yes.
19
Q. -- when everyone else was? Okay.
20
So, do you think the risk of alienation
21
and judging and the social -- I forget what phrase
22
you used. It was a really good one. Social
23
something. Anyway.
24
That social -- what did you use? Do you
Page 38
1
MS. GUTWEIN: Okay.
2
MS. SIEBERT: Okay.
3
EXAMINATION
4
BY MS. SIEBERT:
5
Q. Macey, when you were talking, when
6
Stephanie was asking you about the general topic of
7
feeling alienated and perhaps judged for wearing a
8
mask under this policy and you mentioned an
9
instance, or I don't know if it was limited to one
10
instance or if it was multiple instances, where
11
some fellow students and a professor were asking
12
you about why you weren't going to get vaccinated
13
and kind of pushing you a little bit on that.
14
Do you remember that conversation?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. Okay. Do you remember approximately
17
when that conversation took place? Was that last
18
semester? Was it this summer?
19
A. It was this summer.
20
Q. It was this summer. Were you in a
21
class?
22
A. No.
23
Q. Okay. Do you remember what scenario you
24
were in?
Page 40
1
remember?
2
MS. SIEBERT: Do you remember, Stephanie?
3
BY THE WITNESS:
4
A. Probably social separation or something.
5
BY MS. SIEBERT:
6
Q. That was it. I knew there was an
7
alliteration there. Social separation.
8
Do you think that that risk is greater
9
now than it would have been last year since
10
presumably there will be a lot of people not
11
wearing masks?
12
A. Yes.
13
Q. And I'm just curious. You said you're a
14
theater major?
15
A. Correct.
16
Q. You have a lot of real interesting
17
majors. Did you say medieval literature?
18
A. Medieval studies and English.
19
Q. One of my favorite classes I took in
20
undergrad was Renaissance and medieval history. It
21
was fascinating.
22
A. It sure is. I love it.
23
Q. I'm just curious in a theater major how
24
you all have progressed and done performances and
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 10 of 13
11 (Pages 41 to 44)
Page 41
1
how that has impacted -- how all of this has
2
impacted your -- and by "all of this," I mean the
3
whole COVID pandemic has affected your education in
4
that respect.
5
A. It was devastating really. Ruined our
6
performances. We could really only perform on
7
Zoom, which can have a huge effect on how actors
8
can interact with each other. It's not as natural.
9
And in my acting classes, we had to wear a mask and
10
social distance.
11
So, you had to yell at each other so you
12
could hear what the other actor is saying and you
13
could only read like half of their faces. So, you
14
really can't respond the way you naturally would in
15
an acting scenario where there wasn't masks.
16
Q. Understandable. So, in the fall, will
17
you have any acting classes or classes within your
18
major then?
19
A. Yes.
20
Q. And, so, in the fall, if you're in one
21
of those classes and you're wearing a mask but
22
because you fall under the mandate and there are
23
those requirements and other actors working with
24
you are not wearing the mask, do you think that
Page 43
1
Q. You may go ahead and answer, Macey.
2
A. Like what I've mentioned before, it's
3
hard to see only the top half of somebody's face
4
and know how to respond to them organically in a
5
performance situation.
6
So, the other actors would have a hard
7
time looking at me and knowing how to gauge the
8
situation and how I'm trying to steer the scene.
9
It just creates a separation and they will have a
10
harder time hearing me sometimes.
11
Q. Have you had over the course of the
12
past, you know, 16 months since all of this has
13
been in place, have you had conversations with
14
other theater majors or film student majors,
15
whatever the -- in acting classes where you all
16
have talked about the difficulty of performing and
17
acting with -- while wearing masks and social
18
distancing?
19
A. Yes, we spoke about it often.
20
MS. GUTWEIN: Objection; hearsay.
21
BY MS. SIEBERT:
22
Q. And to the best of your recollection, do
23
those conversations match with what you just talked
24
about as far as the issues with -- with acting with
Page 42
1
will impact your education and your performance?
2
A. Yes. I think it would impact my
3
education as well as theirs.
4
Q. In what way would it -- some of the ways
5
that you think it would impact your education?
6
A. Wearing a mask really changes the way
7
you communicate with people. You have to raise
8
your voice and enunciate more, which isn't entirely
9
necessary in someone who does film work. For
10
someone who does stage, that might be fine. But
11
film is more my area of interest.
12
So, it's difficult for me to have to
13
have that barrier in front of my face when I'm
14
trying to communicate with other actors.
15
And since acting is a physical
16
experience, I feel like wearing a mask and having
17
to social distance from everybody else would really
18
separate me and actors perhaps might not want to
19
become like physically closer to me and interact
20
with me physically.
21
Q. And how would that impact their
22
education, the other actors?
23
MS. GUTWEIN: Objection; speculation.
24
BY MS. SIEBERT:
Page 44
1
somebody while wearing a mask?
2
A. Yes.
3
MS. GUTWEIN: Same objection.
4
MS. SIEBERT: Sorry, Stephanie.
5
MS. GUTWEIN: It's okay.
6
BY MS. SIEBERT:
7
Q. Go ahead, Macey. You may answer.
8
A. Yes. What I said matched what everybody
9
else complained about.
10
Q. All right. Thank you.
11
What do you want to go with your -- do
12
you want to go into film then?
13
A. Yes. I think it's a lot of fun.
14
Q. That's fun. I would be terrified. But
15
God bless you. It's such a neat talent.
16
You're not musical theater. Do you sing
17
or just act?
18
A. I can sing and do stage, but I prefer
19
film.
20
Q. Okay. All right. Great.
21
Well, I don't have -- oh, actually I do.
22
I'm sorry.
23
You spoke about the issue of bodily
24
autonomy. Do you think the issues surrounding
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 11 of 13
12 (Pages 45 to 48)
Page 45
1
bodily autonomy are greater when you're speaking
2
specifically about the shot versus perhaps when
3
you're talking about the masks and those other
4
requirements?
5
A. Yes, because something is being actually
6
put into my body versus the masks and doing a
7
saliva test doesn't really alter my body in any
8
way.
9
Q. Okay. But, again, going back to that
10
bodily autonomy in connection with the masks and
11
the testing, it has more to do with the fairness in
12
your view, correct?
13
A. Correct.
14
Q. Okay.
15
MS. SIEBERT: I think that is it for me too.
16
MS. GUTWEIN: Just a couple of follow-up.
17
FURTHER EXAMINATION
18
BY MS. GUTWEIN:
19
Q. On the discussion that you were just
20
having about your experience last year when you
21
were masking during the school year, do you have
22
any reason to think that the masking requirement
23
affected your ultimate grades that your professors
24
gave you?
Page 47
1
impacts that you've already discussed within your
2
specific major, will that impact your education
3
beyond grades?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. Okay.
6
MS. SIEBERT: That's it for me.
7
MS. GUTWEIN: I'm finished. Thank you very
8
much, Macey. Really appreciate it.
9
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10
MS. SIEBERT: Thank you so much, Macey.
11
THE REPORTER: Read and sign?
12
MS. SIEBERT: Yes, please. Same thing, we
13
would like a rough and final and then expedited as
14
well.
15
(Time Noted: 3:25 p.m.)
16
FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NAUGHT.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page 46
1
A. No. I think my professors understood
2
the situation really well and were very lenient.
3
Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to think
4
that they will be different this coming semester?
5
A. I don't think so.
6
Q. Okay.
7
MS. GUTWEIN: I have no further questions,
8
Melena.
9
MS. SIEBERT: I have one follow-up, then, from
10
that.
11
FURTHER EXAMINATION
12
BY MS. SIEBERT:
13
Q. Macey, do you think that your education
14
has more than grades involved with it?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. What other things are important to you
17
in your education?
18
A. What I'm actually learning. It's
19
important that I'm getting the most out of my
20
school experience so I can take that knowledge with
21
me into my career.
22
Q. And, so, do you think that this coming
23
semester, by being forced to comply with the
24
masking requirements and so forth and some of the
Page 48
1
I, CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968,
2
Registered Professional Reporter and Certified
Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify:
3
That previous to the commencement of the
examination of the witness, the witness was duly
4
sworn to testify the whole truth concerning the
matters herein;
5
That the foregoing deposition transcript
was reported stenographically by me, was thereafter
6
reduced to typewriting under my personal direction
and constitutes a true record of the testimony
7
given and the proceedings had;
That the said deposition was taken
8
before me at the time and place specified;
That the reading and signing by the
9
witness of the deposition transcript was agreed
upon as stated herein;
10
That I am not a relative or employee or
attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of
11
such attorney or counsel for any of the parties
hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in
12
the outcome of this action.
13
__________________________________
14
CORINNE T. MARUT, Certified Reporter
15
(The foregoing certification of this
16
transcript does not apply to any
reproduction of the same by any means, unless under
17
the direct control and/or supervision of the
certifying reporter.)
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23
24
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 12 of 13
13 (Pages 49 to 52)
Page 49
1
INSTRUCTIONS TO WITNESS
2
3
Please read your deposition over
4
carefully and make any necessary corrections. You
5
should state the reason in the appropriate space on
6
the errata sheet for any corrections that are made.
7
After doing so, please sign the errata
8
sheet and date it.
9
You are signing same subject to the
10
changes you have noted on the errata sheet, which
11
will be attached to your deposition.
12
It is imperative that you return the
13
original errata sheet to the deposing attorney
14
within thirty (30) days of receipt of the
15
deposition transcript by you. If you fail to do
16
so, the deposition transcript may be deemed to be
17
accurate and may be used in court.
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19
20
21
22
23
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Page 51
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
2
FORT WAYNE DIVISION
3
RYAN KLAASSEN, et al., )
4
)
Plaintiffs, )
5
) CASE NO.
-vs- ) 1:21-cv-00238
6
)
THE TRUSTEES OF INDIANA )
7
UNIVERSITY, )
)
8
Defendant. )
9
AFFIDAVIT
10
I, MACEY ROSE POLICKA, the undersigned
11
affiant, being first duly sworn, on oath say that
the testimony given at my deposition at the time
12
and place aforesaid is the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, and that I have read the
13
foregoing transcript consisting of Pages 1 to 53
inclusive, and do subscribe and make oath that the
14
same is a true, correct, and complete transcript of
my deposition so given as aforesaid, and includes
15
changes, if any, so made by me.
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FURTHER AFFIANT SAITH NAUGHT.
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_____________________________
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AFFIANT, MACEY ROSE POLICKA
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SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO before me
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this day of , A.D. 20 .
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_____________________________________
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Notary Public
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Page 50
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PAGE LINE CHANGE
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Page 52
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LAWYER'S NOTES
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PAGE LINE
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USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-26 filed 07/12/21 page 13 of 13File and source
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