Court filing
Deposition of Jaime Carini — Klaassen v. Indiana University
Filed July 12, 2021 in Klaassen v. Trustees of Indiana University; one of 26 filings from this case.
Record facts
| Court | UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2021-07-12 |
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT · No. 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC · Doc. 31-22 · 2021-07-12 · Docket on CourtListener
Full text
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
FORT WAYNE DIVISION
RYAN KLAASSEN, JAIME CARINI,
D.J.B., by and through his
next friend and father, DANIEL
G. BAUMGARTNER, ASHLEE MORRIS,
SETH CROWDER, MACEY POLICKA,
MARGARET ROTH, and NATALIE
SPERAZZA,
Plaintiffs,
vs. Case No. 1:21-cv-00238
THE TRUSTEES OF INDIANA
UNIVERSITY,
Defendant.
REMOTE ORAL DEPOSITION OF JAIME CARINI
TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT
ON JUNE 1, 2021, BEGINNING AT 1:02 P.M. CST
APPEARANCES
On behalf of the PLAINTIFFS:
Ms. Melena S. Siebert, Esq.
THE BOPP LAW FIRM
1 South 6th Street
Terre Haute, Indiana 47807
(812) 232-2434
msiebert@bopplaw.com
On behalf of the DEFENDANT:
Ms. Stephanie Gutwein, Esq.
FAEGRE, DRINKER, BIDDLE & REATH
300 North Meridian Street, Suite 2500
Indianapolis, Indiana 46204
(317) 237-0300
stephanie.gutwein@faegredrinker.com
REPORTED BY: D. Luke Epps, CSR, RPR
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STIPULATIONS
2
It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and
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between the parties hereto, through their respective
4
attorneys, that the remote oral deposition of Jaime
5
Carini may be taken pursuant to notice and in
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accordance with the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure
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on June 1, 2021, before D. Luke Epps, CSR, RPR.
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INDEX
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Page
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Direct Examination by Ms. Gutwein 4
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Cross-Examination by Ms. Siebert 88
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EXHIBITS
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Exhibit Description Page
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1 Verification of Jaime Carini 36
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2 Verified Complaint for Declaratory 58
and Injunctive Relief
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THE REPORTER: All parties to this
2
deposition are appearing remotely and have agreed to
3
the witness being sworn in remotely. Due to the
4
nature of remote reporting, please pause briefly
5
before speaking to ensure all parties are heard
6
completely. Counsel, please state your appearance.
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MS. SIEBERT: My name is Melena Siebert.
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I'm counsel for plaintiff, Jaime Carini.
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MS. GUTWEIN: Stephanie Gutwein, counsel
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for Indiana University.
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(Oath administered.)
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WHEREUPON,
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JAIME CARINI,
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after having been first duly sworn, deposes and
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says in reply to the questions propounded as
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follows, to-wit:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION
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BY MS. GUTWEIN:
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Q Okay. Thanks again for being here, Jaime.
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You just -- I introduced myself a minute ago, but
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I'll just do it again on the record. I'm Stephanie
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Gutwein, and I'm here as a lawyer for Indiana
23
University, and I'm just going to add a couple of
24
procedural things into the record before we get
25
started. So the parties have agreed that you could
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 1 of 24
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
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be sworn in remotely, which you just were, and
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because we're doing this deposition virtually, if
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there are any technical issues, we've agreed that
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we'll, you know, pause the deposition and try to
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resolve those. So if at any point, you know, you
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can't hear me or I freeze or you freeze or your
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counsel freezes or anything like that, type
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something into the chat or, you know, try to get in
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touch with your lawyer and we'll make sure to pause
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so we can fix it; okay?
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A Sounds great.
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Q I know that you mentioned that it's a semi
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private space. Do you have other people in the room
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with you right now?
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A No. There are no other people in the
16
room.
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Q Okay. If at some point during the
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deposition someone else comes into the room, will
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you please let me know?
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A Yes. They should -- yeah, again,
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they're -- they're not going to be coming in and
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bothering me, but I will let you know.
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Q Thank you.
24
A I have earbuds in so they cannot hear your
25
questions.
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A I -- I can -- I can give you a round
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estimate.
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Q That's just fine.
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A Because I don't remember. Okay. A round
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estimate, it was 20 -- it was after 2016. It was
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between -- because that's -- it was after 20 -- it
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was sometime in 2018 or 2019. I think it was
8
probably 2018.
9
Q Okay. And is that the only deposition
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you've ever participated in?
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A Yes.
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Q Besides today?
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A Yes.
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Q Okay. With a little bit of experience,
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you might have a little bit of an idea of what to
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expect today, but I'm going to go over the process
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just a little bit. I'm going to ask you some
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questions today, and I'm just looking for your
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truthful answers. This is not a test, so there's no
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right or wrong answers as long as you're being
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honest. As your lawyer just explained to you, you
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might hear some objections, and that's okay. You
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should still answer unless she instructs you not to.
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You understand that you just gave an oath to testify
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truthfully to the best of your ability; is that
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Q Okay. Have you ever given a deposition
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before?
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A Yes.
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Q How many times?
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A Once.
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Q And what did that relate to?
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A Do I have to answer this question? Does
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it relate -- okay. All right. I'm sorry. Not to
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be --
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MS. SIEBERT: No. That's okay, Jaime.
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Just -- and I'll cover this just procedurally. You
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know, if -- if there's an objection, I'll make it,
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and -- but even with an objection, unless I instruct
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you not to answer, please just go ahead and answer.
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So there's no objection to this question just for
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the record.
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THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you for the
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reminder. Yes, and it was pertaining to a car
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accident.
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Q (BY MS. GUTWEIN) Okay. How long ago was
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that?
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A The deposition or the car accident?
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Q Sorry. Thank you for asking me to
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clarify. The deposition. How long ago was the
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deposition?
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right?
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A Yes.
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Q And is there any reason you can think of
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that you wouldn't be able to do that today?
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A No.
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Q Do you have any notes or documents with
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you?
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A No.
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Q If you make any notes or pull out any
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documents during the deposition, will you let me
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know?
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A Yes.
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Q Thank you. I am going to ask that while
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we're on the record today, you don't communicate
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with anybody, you know, texting or emailing or
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anything like that; is that okay?
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A Yes.
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Q Okay. If you need to talk to your lawyer
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at some point, just let me know, and we can take a
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break so you can do that. I'll just ask that you
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answer whatever question is pending before we take a
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break.
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A Okay.
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Q Okay.
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A Thanks.
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Q If at any point you don't understand my
2
question today, will you please let me know so that
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I can rephrase or clarify?
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A Yes.
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Q Thank you. If you answer my question, I'm
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going to under -- I'm going to take it that you
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understood my question. Is that an okay approach?
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A Yes.
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Q Okay. The other thing that I've noticed
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is, you've been doing some head nods, and that is
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perfectly fine and totally a natural human tendency.
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Luke is only able to take down what we say out loud,
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so we just need to make sure that in addition to any
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gestures, you're vocalizing your answers; okay?
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A Okay.
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Q And I'll try to help you and so will your
17
lawyer. It's so natural not to say everything out
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loud. So ...
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A All right.
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Q Are you comfortable with my calling you
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Jaime today during the deposition or would you like
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me to refer to you some other way?
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A Jaime is fine as long as we're all on a
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first name basis.
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Q Okay. Yes. You're welcome to call me
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did you speak to any of those individuals before the
2
lawsuit was filed?
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A No.
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Q Have you spoken to them since?
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A Yes.
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Q Okay. And I'm not going to ask you about
7
the substance of your conversations, so ...
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A Okay.
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Q So do you know that other of those
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co-plaintiffs were deposed in this lawsuit?
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A Yes.
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Q Have you talked to anyone about those
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depositions?
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A No.
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Q Have you seen any transcripts of those
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depositions?
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A No.
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Q So do you know -- other than that they
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occurred, do you know anything about those
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depositions?
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A No.
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Q Okay. How did you come to learn about
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this lawsuit?
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A I learned about it in -- in a park in
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Bloomington. Someone was passing out flyers
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Stephanie. That's just fine also.
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A All right. Thank you.
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Q Uh-huh. And then I might at different
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points during the deposition refer to Indiana
5
University as IU. Is that okay with you?
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A Yes.
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Q Okay. Can you please state your full name
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for the record?
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A Yes. My name is Jaime Carini.
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Q And how old are you, Jaime?
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A I am 39 years old.
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Q Okay. Are you aware that there are other
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co-plaintiffs who are litigating this lawsuit with
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you?
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A Yes, I am.
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Q Have you met any of those other
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individuals?
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A No, not in person. May I -- Melena,
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should I answer? May I consult with my attorney for
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just a moment?
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Q Well, give me whatever your answer is so I
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can clarify my question. Have you met any of those
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individuals in person?
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A No.
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Q Have you spoken to those individuals --
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actually about the rally, and, yes, about a rally,
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and she told me about the lawsuit, too.
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Q What rally are you referring to?
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A I don't remember the exact name. It was
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sponsored by IU Family for Choice, not Mandates.
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That's the approximate title.
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Q Okay. And I think I understood you to say
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the woman who you received the flyer from also told
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you about this lawsuit?
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A Yes.
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Q What did she tell you about it?
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A I don't remember exactly, to be honest.
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Q Can you give me a general idea of what she
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told you?
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MS. SIEBERT: I'm going to object for
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hearsay, but go ahead and answer, Jaime.
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THE WITNESS: The gist -- I mean, like I
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said, I don't remember specifically. The gist was
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that there were families who were resisting the
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mandates, and -- and I wanted -- yes. That's all.
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Q (BY MS. GUTWEIN) Okay. And so what did
22
you do after she told you about the lawsuit?
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A I looked into -- she did tell me that --
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well, I looked into it. I researched what they --
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what exactly they were concerned about and to see if
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 3 of 24
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their concerns aligned with mine.
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Q When you say, "they," you said they were
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concerned about. Who is the "they" that you're
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referring to?
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A The organization, IU Family for Choice,
6
not Mandates.
7
Q Okay. So you looked the organization up
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online?
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A Yes.
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Q And you read about what their concerns
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were in connection with IU?
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A I don't remember what they had available
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at that time. Yeah. I -- I learned -- yeah. I --
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I -- I think I'll -- I'll leave my question -- my
15
answer there, or can you restate your question,
16
please?
17
Q Sure. You testified that you researched
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what the organization was concerned about to see if
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their concerns aligned with yours. So I guess what
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I'm interested in is how did you conduct your
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research?
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A How did I conduct -- they had -- well,
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I -- now I'm thinking I answered in the affirmative
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to something I don't remember for sure, and I -- I
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feel -- I didn't -- was not trying to be
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A Goodness. The only way I would know is to
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look through my email.
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Q Okay. You don't need to do that right
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now, of course.
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A Okay.
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Q Do you remember the name of the woman who
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gave you a flyer?
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A I do. Her name is Margaret Menge, or
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M-E-N-G-E. I'm not sure how she pronounces it.
10
Q Okay. And so you looked her up and then
11
through her you found Jim's law firm?
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A She told me about Jim's law firm, yes.
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Yes.
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Q Okay.
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A Yeah. So I looked her up. I remember
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that for sure, and I called -- and then I did not
17
reach out to Jim's law firm right away, but I -- but
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she's the one who told me about him. So she was,
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you know, my -- not necessarily a contact, but --
20
but, yes, she knew about the suit and about who was
21
filing it.
22
Q Okay. I want to talk just a little bit
23
about you and your education at IU.
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A Uh-huh.
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Q I understand that you are in the middle of
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intentionally leading anyone on. I remember I
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looked up the woman and what her position was to see
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if she was consistent with what she was telling me
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and what she had talked about, and then -- I know
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what I did. I called -- I called Jim Bopp's law
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firm, and that's how I found more about -- about the
7
suit. That's what I did. Is it okay to correct my
8
earlier statements?
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Q Sure. Yes.
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A Okay.
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Q Again, this is not a quiz. It's just to
12
get information. So if at some point today you said
13
something and then you realized later that you, you
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know, you thought of something else, you just need
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to let me know.
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A Okay. Yeah. Sorry. It's amazing how
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quickly memories fade.
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Q When was that timing when you received the
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flyer?
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A The flyer was Memorial Day.
21
Q Okay. Do you remember when you contacted
22
Jim's law firm?
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A Not precisely.
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Q Was it soon after you received the flyer
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or a little while?
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pursuing two doctorates at IU; is that right?
2
A Yes.
3
Q And one is a doctorate in music and one is
4
a Ph.D. -- excuse me, music and literature, and one
5
is a Ph.D. in musicology?
6
A I'd like to make a correction.
7
Q Sure.
8
A Organ performance and literature.
9
Q Okay. Is the doctorate in music?
10
A Yes. Doctor of music in organ performance
11
and literature.
12
Q Okay. And then the Ph.D. is in
13
musicology?
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A Yes.
15
Q And when did you start -- did you start
16
those programs simultaneously?
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A No.
18
Q So can you tell me when you started the
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doctorate in music?
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A Yes. I started the doctorate of music in
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August 2014.
22
Q Okay. And have you been pursuing that at
23
IU the entire time?
24
A Yes.
25
Q Has it been something that --
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 4 of 24
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A Actually may I ask for a clarification --
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Q Sure.
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A -- by "entire time"? Do you mean, like,
4
am I -- yes.
5
Q So I'll ask that two different ways. One
6
is, have you worked on that doctorate at any other
7
institution besides IU?
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A No.
9
Q Okay. And have you been working on that
10
doctorate consistently since 2014?
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A Yes.
12
Q Has there -- has there been any time
13
period where you've, you know, taken a break or -- I
14
guess -- I'm not super familiar with how that
15
doctorate program works, so is that something that,
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you know, it's just -- you work on it over the
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period of several years or have you taken time off
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from that and returned to it?
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A I did take time off.
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Q When did you do that?
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A From 2018 -- from the summer of 2018 to
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January of 2020.
23
Q Okay. Why did you take that time off?
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A I was not well, so it was a medical leave.
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Q Okay. Was that something that I -- you
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So -- so -- so seven years is just to finish the
2
coursework part of that degree program. Remind me
3
what the other part of your question was, please.
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Q Well, so what parts of your degree program
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are there besides coursework?
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A There's coursework, and there's exams, and
7
then there's dissertation.
8
Q And so how much -- much work left do you
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have on the coursework piece of it?
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A I am finished with coursework.
11
Q Okay. And then you have -- do you have
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exams that remain?
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A Yes.
14
Q And what are those?
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A I have two exams. One in organ
16
performance and the other for musicology. They're
17
both -- they're both called major field exams.
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Q And what -- tell me about what the process
19
of those exams is like.
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A The exam itself is an eight-hour written
21
exam, so you prepare for it for months, and then you
22
go in a room by yourself and you write for eight
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hours, and that's -- and then you're graded on it on
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a -- I think it's pass or fail. That part, I don't
25
remember so much, but, yeah.
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worked with IU to arrange that medical leave?
2
A Well, yes. There's two -- there's a
3
two-part answer. One is yes on the funding side of
4
it. The way our -- we have contracts with the
5
university for funding for a certain number of
6
years. So, yes, on that I had to work with them,
7
but on the other -- another aspect of the degree
8
program is that as long as you finish your
9
coursework within a seven-year period, you don't
10
have to come. Like, you can take a semester off if
11
you want to, and it's not a big deal. And I --
12
yeah. That's -- so it's a two-piece question, and
13
because I had funding, both of those applied to me.
14
Q Okay. When you said you have to finish it
15
in a seven-year period --
16
A Uh-huh.
17
Q -- if I do seven years from 2014, that
18
gets me, I think, to 2021. So does that mean you're
19
close to finishing or does that leave give you
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additional time to finish?
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A No. The leave -- so when I finish -- I
22
hope I said coursework. I meant -- that was --
23
Q Okay.
24
A -- an important part of my answer. We
25
have several timelines within our degree program.
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Q Okay. So you have two exams that you have
2
to take is what I understood you to say that you
3
haven't taken yet?
4
A Right.
5
Q When -- are you scheduled -- let me strike
6
that. Do you know when you might be taking these
7
exams?
8
A I only have a general -- a general
9
timeline.
10
Q What's that?
11
A Within the next academic year.
12
Q Okay. And you ultimately --
13
A I can tell you -- I can tell you
14
specifically. I took a minor field exam yesterday,
15
and that starts the exam timeline, which is one
16
year. So I have a year between yesterday -- I have
17
364 days to finish my other two exams.
18
Q Okay. That's nice you got it started.
19
A Yeah.
20
Q What was the process of taking your minor
21
field exam yesterday?
22
A It's similar to the major field exams,
23
except instead of writing for eight hours, I wrote
24
for four hours.
25
Q Where did you go to take that exam?
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 5 of 24
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A They're letting us take the exams
2
virtually right now.
3
Q Are you able to take -- I'm sorry. Go
4
ahead.
5
A Go ahead. No, I'm good.
6
Q So is it -- is it your -- is it accurate,
7
then, that you didn't have to go anywhere in
8
particular to take it? You could take it from
9
wherever you wanted?
10
A Yes.
11
Q Okay. Are you -- do you have the option
12
to take either of the major exams that you described
13
virtually?
14
A I don't remember. We're in the middle of
15
policy changes again in the school of music, so I
16
would have to check on those for the fall and the
17
spring semesters.
18
Q If you had wanted to take the major exams
19
sooner, could you take them whenever you wanted?
20
A Can you rephrase the question?
21
Q Sure. Are you able to pick the day when
22
you take your major exams?
23
A Yes.
24
Q Could you have taken them before today if
25
you had wanted to?
Page 23
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Q Do you like the recitals?
2
A I do now. I do now.
3
Q Yeah. Okay. So those major --
4
A It's a performance like -- it's like a --
5
it's a performance, like being in a courtroom in
6
front of a judge.
7
Q Pressure. Fun pressure?
8
A Uh-huh.
9
Q Besides the two major exams that you
10
described and the organ recital, I think, right, are
11
there other -- you said, then, I think the
12
dissertation was the other requirement for your --
13
to complete your doctorate in music; is that right?
14
A Yes.
15
Q And what's the timeline for that?
16
A We have up to seven years.
17
Q Seven years from when?
18
A Seven years from June 30th, 2022.
19
Q Okay.
20
A Or, no. Let me rephrase that. Seven
21
years from the date I finish my last oral exam.
22
Q Your last --
23
A It could be -- yes. So our major field
24
exams are two parts, they're written and oral. I'm
25
sorry. I forgot that part.
Page 22
1
A No. Not -- no, not -- one of them, no.
2
Not one of them. One of them is contingent on my
3
completing my next organ recital.
4
Q And when is that?
5
A This fall, early fall.
6
Q Is that something that IU scheduled for
7
the fall or is that something that you scheduled for
8
the fall?
9
A I'm going to wrap this answer to answer
10
your question about scheduling exams and recitals.
11
These recitals and exams are scheduled in
12
consultation with my professors and my committee
13
members. So they only let it -- we all agree -- I
14
have a say, too. We all determine on a date when I
15
can do my absolute best.
16
Q Okay. The recital that you were just
17
describing --
18
A Yes.
19
Q -- that's coming up, is that something
20
that you all have do in person or could you do that
21
virtually?
22
A That will have to be done in person.
23
Q During the pandemic before, did you have
24
any recitals?
25
A No, I did not.
Page 24
1
Q You're fine.
2
A Yeah.
3
Q Okay.
4
A So -- and the oral exams come close on the
5
heels of the major field exam, or of the written
6
part, yeah.
7
Q Okay. And then once you've completed your
8
major exams is when the timeline for your
9
dissertation starts?
10
A Yes.
11
Q Okay. So to complete your doctorate in
12
music, you have two major exams, both written and
13
oral left, the components of those. You have your
14
organ recital, and then after that you'll have to
15
turn to your dissertation; is that right?
16
A Yes. Hold on a sec. Sorry. I just put
17
my phone in airplane mode.
18
Q It's okay.
19
A There we go. I have -- just for
20
clarification, I do have two recitals.
21
Q Okay.
22
A Yeah. So my plan is to do one in the fall
23
and the next one in the spring.
24
Q So two required recitals is what you mean?
25
A Yes.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 6 of 24
7 (Pages 25 to 28)
Page 25
1
Q Is there any -- are there any other
2
requirements to complete -- not -- not to minimize
3
those, they're big obviously, but besides the
4
requirements that we've talked about, are there any
5
other requirements to complete your doctorate in
6
music?
7
A Not that I know of.
8
Q Okay. Turning to your Ph.D., when did you
9
start that program?
10
A I started that program in the fall -- in
11
August 2016.
12
Q Okay. And what is the nature of the work
13
that that program entails?
14
A Can you rephrase?
15
Q Sure. So Ph.D. programs are another thing
16
that I'm not super familiar with. So for that
17
program, do you attend classes? Do you teach?
18
What -- what are the requirements of that program to
19
complete it?
20
A Yes. Attending classes is important.
21
Taking -- taking the exams that we've talked about
22
is -- is a requirement, and writing a dissertation
23
is a requirement of that, and we do teach as well as
24
part of our program. The teaching is not required,
25
but it's an important opportunity for all of us, for
Page 27
1
A I did not actively work on my Ph.D.,
2
meaning I was not formally enrolled in classes, but
3
I did have incompletes related to the medical leave
4
-- related to the medical issues that prompted the
5
medical leave, and so I took that time actually
6
working -- while I was recovering, to finish some
7
incompletes.
8
Q So when you said that you were -- I think
9
you said -- did you say, "inactive"? Is that the
10
word that you used?
11
A Not actively.
12
Q Not actively working.
13
A Uh-huh.
14
Q So is that -- is that another program
15
where you have a certain amount of time to complete
16
it, and you can sort of choose when you're going to
17
be actively working on it?
18
A Yes. Yes. This degree, the musicology
19
degree, was tied to my doctorate, so the timeline
20
for the musicology degree was short -- was shortened
21
to five years instead of seven, and that's just for
22
completing the coursework part.
23
Q Five years from 2016?
24
A Uh-huh.
25
Q Okay. How much coursework do you have
Page 26
1
all of us there.
2
Q Okay. Have you been pursuing your
3
Ph.D. since 2016 only at Indiana University or was
4
there a time that you worked on part of that at a
5
different institution?
6
A No. I've only worked on it at Indiana
7
University.
8
Q Have you been pursuing it with --
9
consistently with no breaks since 2016 or did you
10
also take a break from your Ph.D. program?
11
A Sorry. Can you rephrase the question
12
again?
13
Q Sure.
14
A I know what you're asking, but I'm not
15
sure how to -- how to phrase my answer.
16
Q I'm just trying to understand, for your
17
doctorate program, I think you said you took -- took
18
some time -- took leave, medical leave, starting in
19
2018?
20
A Uh-huh.
21
Q And so I'm trying to understand whether
22
there was any point in pursuing your Ph.D. that you
23
took leave or a break from that program or whether
24
you have been, you know, consistently working
25
without any breaks since 2016.
Page 28
1
left for your Ph.D.?
2
A None. That is all complete.
3
Q Okay. Congratulations.
4
A Thank you.
5
Q So what do you have left to complete as
6
requirements for your Ph.D. program?
7
A Just to clarify, it's sort of wrapped up
8
in what we -- what we talked about before. So at
9
this point, I -- it is a double doctorate, and
10
because they've tied them together, I think of it as
11
a timeline for, like -- and I think that's how
12
every -- my professors think of it, too. The -- so
13
I'll speak specifically to the Ph.D. portion since I
14
spoke to it as a whole before. The Ph.D. portion, I
15
have one major field exam, and then I have a
16
dissertation to write. This dissertation is the
17
same dissertation I spoke of when we talked about
18
all of my remaining requirements.
19
Q Okay. So when we were talking about the
20
two major exams with both the oral and written
21
components and the two recitals and the
22
dissertation, that -- that -- those requirements
23
will allow you to complete both of your pending
24
degrees?
25
A Yes.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 7 of 24
8 (Pages 29 to 32)
Page 29
1
Q Okay. And so besides those requirements,
2
are there any others that you have to satisfy for
3
either of your degrees?
4
A Not that I can think of.
5
Q Okay. For your -- for either of your
6
degrees, so I'll just talk about in general, as part
7
of pursuing these degrees, have you taught any
8
classes?
9
A Yes.
10
Q Tell me about that. What did you teach?
11
A In summer of 2017, I taught a class called
12
M401, which is -- which is undergraduate music
13
history, and -- and that's what we think of as early
14
music history. In summer of 2020, I taught M402,
15
which is also undergraduate music history, and we
16
think of that as more modern, like, romantic to
17
modern, and I need to clarify. When I say,
18
"taught," at this point, I was, like, teaching as an
19
associate instructor. So -- so we have -- yes. So
20
students -- so students have lectures with the
21
instructor of record, and then they'll work with me.
22
We'll have more conversation and dialogue.
23
Q Okay. When you taught in summer 2020 --
24
A Uh-huh.
25
Q -- did you teach class in person or
Page 31
1
campus. That's where we have instruments and the --
2
you know, concert halls. And I'm in Oklahoma at the
3
moment, so I have -- I'm friends with a lot of the
4
church musicians in Tulsa, so I'm practicing --
5
practicing there.
6
Q At churches in Tulsa?
7
A Uh-huh.
8
Q When's the last time that you were in
9
Bloomington?
10
A One sec. It was June. I've only been --
11
been here for a few weeks. Let me think real quick.
12
June 11th is when I came back to Oklahoma.
13
Q Are you from Oklahoma?
14
A Yes.
15
Q Okay. So when you say, "came back,"
16
your -- your previous home before going to --
17
A Well, yes. Actually this is my permanent
18
residence still.
19
Q Okay. So when you were in Bloomington in
20
June before you returned to Tulsa, how long had you
21
been in Bloomington?
22
A How long had I been in Bloomington
23
since -- can you rephrase your question?
24
Q Sure. I'm just -- I'm trying to figure
25
out -- you said that you were in Bloomington in
Page 30
1
online?
2
A No. I taught class online.
3
Q How was that experience for you?
4
A It -- it was -- it was fine. It worked
5
out okay.
6
Q Okay.
7
A We were all, you know --
8
Q Sorry.
9
A We were all -- I mean, everybody was
10
experimenting at that point.
11
Q Sure. Are there any other classes that
12
you've taught as part of your pursuit of these
13
degrees besides the two that we just talked about?
14
A No.
15
Q Okay. This summer, what have you been
16
spending your time doing?
17
A I was -- this -- I've been working towards
18
completing my degree requirements.
19
Q Okay. And when you say working towards
20
that, what is the nature of the work that you've
21
been doing?
22
A Practicing the pipe organ and studying for
23
the exam that I took yesterday.
24
Q Where do you practice?
25
A When I'm in Bloomington, I practice on
Page 32
1
June.
2
A Uh-huh.
3
Q When did you get to Bloomington that led
4
to you being in Bloomington in June for that
5
particular time period --
6
A For that time period?
7
Q -- that you were in June -- that you were
8
in Bloomington? Excuse me.
9
A I was -- I came home in March for -- yeah.
10
I came home in March for, like, a week, a couple of
11
weeks, and then I was in Bloomington since then.
12
Q How often do you go between Oklahoma
13
and -- or Tulsa and Bloomington?
14
A Uh-huh. Roughly speaking, two to three
15
months.
16
Q You'll go two to three months in
17
Bloomington and then return to Tulsa?
18
A Yes.
19
Q And when you return home, how long do you
20
usually stay before you go back to Bloomington?
21
A There -- there is no set time frame that
22
I'm in Tulsa. Some -- some trips are longer. Some
23
are shorter.
24
Q Okay. So is it -- was the last time -- I
25
understand that you went back to Tulsa in March, and
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 8 of 24
9 (Pages 33 to 36)
Page 33
1
then returned to Bloomington after a week, I think
2
you said?
3
A Yeah. It turned out to be a couple of
4
weeks.
5
Q Okay. And then you stayed in Bloomington
6
through June?
7
A Uh-huh.
8
Q Before -- for the 2020 to 2021 school
9
year, so last school year, did you spend most of
10
your time in Bloomington or where -- where were you
11
spending your time?
12
A I did spend most of my time in
13
Bloomington.
14
Q And where do you live when you're in
15
Bloomington?
16
A I live south of campus. I live in my own
17
housing.
18
Q Like, an off-campus house?
19
A Uh-huh.
20
Q Okay. Do you live by yourself or do you
21
have others that you live with there?
22
A I do live by myself.
23
Q Nice.
24
A Uh-huh.
25
Q When you return to and from Bloomington or
Page 35
1
A Uh-huh.
2
Q Yeah. Good for you.
3
A 11 hours is the longest. Sometimes I can
4
get home in 10 and a half, so, yeah.
5
Q Yeah. So that's, like, you need some
6
coffee for that.
7
A You do, and you don't do it for a weekend.
8
Q Yeah. Yes. Right. Okay. When you
9
decided to join this lawsuit, did you have an
10
opportunity to read the complaint before it was
11
filed?
12
A No. Oh, wait. I'm sorry. Can you
13
rephrase your question?
14
Q Sure. So to start the lawsuit, what
15
happens is, there's a document filed called a
16
complaint.
17
A Yes.
18
Q And so I'm wondering whether you read that
19
before it was filed.
20
A Yes, I did.
21
Q Okay. And did you read the exhibits to
22
that complaint?
23
A No. Only the portions pertaining to me.
24
Q So the exhibits are documents that are
25
attached to the complaint, that would be, like,
Page 34
1
Tulsa, however you want to think about it, do you
2
fly or do you drive or travel some other way?
3
A Yeah. It's usually one of the two, fly or
4
drive.
5
Q Okay.
6
A Typically drive.
7
Q Okay. Since March of 2020, have you flown
8
between Tulsa and Bloomington?
9
A No.
10
Q So each time you've returned to Tulsa,
11
have you -- you've driven?
12
A Yes.
13
Q How long is that drive?
14
A It's about 11 hours.
15
Q Yeah. Do you do that by yourself, it
16
sounds like?
17
A Uh-huh.
18
Q That's a long drive.
19
A Yeah. You get used to it.
20
Q Do you?
21
A Yeah.
22
Q Do you stop along the way?
23
A Yeah. I have my -- you know, I have the
24
places that I know I like to stop, and, yeah.
25
Q Do you do it all in one day?
Page 36
1
other documents. So did you look at those exhibits
2
at all?
3
A No, but I know that -- but I did read
4
through the actual complaint after -- I read through
5
the entire complaint after it was filed, and I know
6
the exhibits were there. I just didn't have time to
7
read them.
8
Q Sure. And before the complaint was filed,
9
did you read through the entire complaint or just
10
the part that applies to you?
11
A Just the part pertaining to me.
12
Q Okay. And then do you remember signing
13
what they call a verification page that would go
14
with the complaint?
15
A I don't remember what the name of the
16
document was.
17
Q Sure. And this is not a test, so I will
18
go ahead and show you what I'm talking about.
19
A Okay. Please do.
20
Q Yes.
21
A I'm sure it probably has my signature on
22
it, too.
23
Q Okay. So if you refresh your screen, you
24
should see something called Exhibit 1.
25
(Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 9 of 24
10 (Pages 37 to 40)
Page 37
1
A Hang on a sec. Oh, there we are.
2
Q Do you see a document called Exhibit 1?
3
A Yes.
4
Q Are you able to open that document?
5
A Yes, and I see it.
6
Q Does this document look familiar to you?
7
A Yes, it does look familiar.
8
Q Okay.
9
A Thank you for the refresher.
10
Q Yes. No problem. So what -- what do you
11
understand this document to mean?
12
A Can you restate the question, please?
13
Q Sure. So you -- is that your signature
14
there at the bottom?
15
A That is -- that is my signature.
16
Q Okay. So when you signed this, what did
17
you understand that you were signing it for?
18
A Yeah. Can you -- can you rephrase again?
19
The question is -- there's a -- yeah. There's --
20
I'm not exactly sure what your -- what your question
21
is. A rephrase would be helpful for me.
22
Q Sure. Do you -- what do you understand
23
the effect of this document to be? What do you
24
understand it to be saying?
25
A Okay. I understand the document to be
Page 39
1
A Not to my knowledge.
2
Q Have you ever had COVID symptoms and
3
thought you might have COVID?
4
A Yes.
5
Q When was that?
6
A In January of 2021.
7
Q And what caused you to think that you
8
might have COVID?
9
A So in truth, I didn't think I had COVID,
10
but the CDC guidelines and IU's guidelines, you
11
know, say if you have symptoms of anything that --
12
even, like, a cold, you would need to treat it as if
13
you possibly have COVID. So it was the CDC and IU
14
that led me to think that way.
15
Q So you -- is it right that you were
16
experiencing some kind of symptoms of illness in
17
January of 2021?
18
A Yes. Yes.
19
Q What were you experiencing?
20
A I'm going to have to think about that for
21
a sec. I don't remember for -- I don't remember for
22
sure. The one symptom I do remember was my voice
23
was hoarse.
24
Q And I think I understand you to be saying
25
based on the symptoms that you were experiencing at
Page 38
1
saying that I need to be truthful. I need to --
2
yeah. That's what I understand the document to be
3
saying.
4
Q Okay. Do you understand --
5
A You have to remember, I'm a musicologist,
6
so I'm going to go with, like, the primary document
7
in front of me, and -- and that's -- I'm assuming
8
you're speaking of the text in that document.
9
Q Yeah, sure. No. I just want your
10
understanding.
11
A Okay.
12
Q It's not -- nothing other than that. So
13
do you understand that this document meant that all
14
of the statements in the complaint about you were
15
true?
16
A Yes.
17
Q Okay. And do you still agree that that's
18
true?
19
A Yes.
20
Q Okay. I want to talk to you a little bit
21
about your experience with COVID. Everybody's
22
favorite thing to talk about. Have you ever had --
23
A We don't need -- we don't need cocktail
24
bars anymore.
25
Q Right. Have you ever had COVID?
Page 40
1
the time, you saw those symptoms listed on CDC
2
guidelines or IU's guidelines as potential
3
indications that you have COVID?
4
A Yes. I had -- I had other symptoms. I
5
don't remember what they were.
6
Q Okay.
7
A You know, malaise -- you know how -- how
8
illness creates general malaise.
9
Q Sure. And so you don't think that you had
10
COVID sitting here today?
11
A Yes. Yes. Wait a minute. I'm answering
12
your question in the affirmative. I do not think I
13
had COVID.
14
Q But you treated it as if you might have
15
COVID at that time?
16
A Yes.
17
Q Okay. I just wanted to make sure I
18
understood you.
19
A Uh-huh.
20
Q And when you thought, you know, you met
21
the guidelines that you may have COVID, what --
22
what, if anything, did you do differently because
23
there was a chance that you might have had it?
24
A I did follow the university's guidelines
25
to stay home. I paid to have a tele-consult with
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 10 of 24
11 (Pages 41 to 44)
Page 41
1
the Health Center so that I could get an expedited
2
COVID test.
3
Q So you were --
4
A And I cancelled --
5
Q Sorry. Go ahead.
6
A And I cancelled the meeting with one of my
7
professors in person.
8
Q Okay.
9
A Or I cancelled an in-person meeting with
10
one of my professors. Yeah.
11
Q So were you ultimately tested for COVID at
12
that time?
13
A Yes, I was.
14
Q What was the result of that?
15
A It was a negative test.
16
Q What kind of test did you have when you
17
got tested?
18
A They did two tests, a nasal swab and a
19
saliva test.
20
Q Okay. Other than that experience in
21
January of 2021, do you have any other times where
22
you thought you might have had COVID or experienced
23
COVID-like symptoms?
24
A Yes.
25
Q Okay. Tell me about that.
Page 43
1
in January of 2021?
2
A Yeah. It was, again, something going
3
around Oklahoma. I think it was some form of the
4
flu. I was sick for over a week.
5
Q Okay. Did you get tested for COVID at
6
that time?
7
A No.
8
Q How -- why not?
9
A There was no need to. We don't -- yeah.
10
Q During these different instances where you
11
have had symptoms of illness, whether or not they
12
are COVID, have you -- did you elect to wear a mask
13
while you were feeling ill?
14
A While I was feeling ill?
15
Q Uh-huh.
16
A Can you -- can you rephrase your question?
17
Q Sure. I'm just -- when you -- I think you
18
described one instance in October and two instances
19
in January of 2021 where you had symptoms that may
20
or may not have been COVID or some other illness.
21
I'm just wondering in any of those three instances
22
that you just described, did you wear a mask when
23
you were experiencing these symptoms at any time?
24
A Yes.
25
Q Okay. Why did you do that?
Page 42
1
A Okay. I acquired an illness here in
2
Oklahoma while visiting family, and -- and the
3
person in my family who we know had similar
4
symptoms, she got tested for COVID, and she knew --
5
and her test was negative. So I had no reason to
6
think that I had COVID because I had the same
7
symptoms as her, and her test was negative, so,
8
yeah.
9
Q So did you elect not to get tested at that
10
time?
11
A Yes.
12
Q When was that?
13
A October 2020.
14
Q Okay. Other than those two experiences,
15
have you had any other times where you thought you
16
had COVID potentially or COVID-like symptoms?
17
A I did have COVID-like symptoms in January
18
2021.
19
Q Apart from the instance that we just
20
talked about?
21
A Yes. Yes.
22
Q Okay.
23
A Yes. The first one we talked about was a
24
very quick cold that was gone in two days.
25
Q Can you tell me about this other instance
Page 44
1
A I wear a mask in the public spaces where
2
I'm required to, but I never feel like it's
3
voluntary. It always feels forced.
4
Q Okay. So when you were --
5
A So --
6
Q Go ahead.
7
A Yeah. So, it's never elective for me.
8
Q So when you were experiencing these
9
symptoms in October and then both times in January,
10
you wore a mask if you were going outside of your
11
house to a public space; is that right?
12
A Can you rephrase your question?
13
Q Sure. I'm just trying to understand --
14
maybe I'll do it less specifically, and you can tell
15
me. What -- what approach -- or let me think about
16
the best way to say this. What was your approach to
17
when you wore a mask and when you didn't when you
18
were experiencing these symptoms?
19
A Well, let me think back to that. When I
20
was experiencing those symptoms, I didn't want to be
21
out anyways. I wanted to be home sick, and I was
22
home as much as I could, so the times that I wore
23
masks, I probably did what I do when I'm well, which
24
is to wear it when required.
25
Q Okay.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 11 of 24
12 (Pages 45 to 48)
Page 45
1
A So ...
2
Q When you were at IU for the 2020-2021
3
school year and you were in Bloomington, did you
4
wear a mask when you were on campus consistent with
5
IU policy?
6
A Yes.
7
Q Were you ever a participant in the testing
8
during that school year at IU?
9
A Yes.
10
Q And what -- what was that experience like
11
for you?
12
A Can you be more -- can you rephrase your
13
question?
14
Q Sure. What is -- I'm just trying to
15
understand your experience with the COVID testing
16
while you were in Bloomington. Sort of how
17
frequently you might have been tested, you know,
18
what that experience, that process was like.
19
A Okay. I don't -- I don't remember how
20
frequently I was tested. It -- it was not -- it was
21
not very often. Do you -- the process is basically
22
they send you an email if -- if they want to test
23
you, and you have to go because that's -- that was
24
required for being on campus, and you spit into a
25
tube in a room full of other people and -- and you
Page 47
1
A Which time period?
2
Q Spring 2021.
3
A Yes.
4
Q And how frequently would you say you were
5
tested during that semester at IU?
6
A At first it was -- from the end of spring
7
and summer started blending together. I think
8
spring was less than 10 times.
9
Q Okay. And did you also wear a mask when
10
you were at the Bloomington campus in spring of
11
2021?
12
A Yes.
13
Q Have you had the COVID vaccine?
14
A No.
15
Q Do you have any plans to get the COVID
16
vaccine?
17
A No.
18
Q When you participated in that -- in the
19
activities on campus during the academic 2020-2021
20
school year, and you had to wear a mask and undergo
21
the testing that we were just talking about, did you
22
suffer any harm from that process?
23
A Yes, I did.
24
Q What was that?
25
A Yes. I struggled to breathe with the mask
Page 46
1
leave your tube and then you walk -- you walk out of
2
the facility.
3
Q Okay. And you said it was I think not
4
very many times. Do you think it was more or less
5
than 10 times?
6
A Less than 10 times. Can I ask -- I have a
7
clarifying question. For some reason in my mind, I
8
thought we were speaking of fall 2020. Are we
9
speaking of the entire academic year? What time
10
frame are we speaking of?
11
Q Sure. Thanks for clarifying. So it
12
sounds like the information you were just giving me
13
related to fall of 2020; is that right?
14
A Yes.
15
Q Okay. So we can talk now about maybe
16
spring 2021. Were you also tested during that time
17
period?
18
A Uh-huh.
19
Q And about how --
20
THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. What was the
21
answer?
22
MS. GUTWEIN: Thank you, Luke.
23
Q (BY MS. GUTWEIN) I'm sorry. He needs you
24
to say your answer out loud to my question. I said
25
were you also tested during that time period?
Page 48
1
on.
2
Q Okay.
3
A These things are in my medical record, but
4
I also had bad acne that would, like, scar my face.
5
That has cleared up since I've been away from
6
Bloomington and in Oklahoma where we don't have to
7
wear masks.
8
Q Okay. Any other harm that you suffered
9
from the masking and the testing?
10
A Well, I feel like it violates my freedom
11
of choice. I mean, that's definitely a harm, yes.
12
Yes. I have suffered harm in that -- in that way
13
because IU created a culture of containment and fear
14
where only one opinion is really allowed or
15
encouraged to be expressed, and where students and
16
faculty tell on each other, so, yes, those are all
17
harmful things, and I have felt -- yes, I have felt
18
fear.
19
Q What are you fearful of?
20
A Fearful of discrimination.
21
Q Is that -- so what about the masking
22
requirement in the 2020-2021 school year caused you
23
to be fearful of discrimination?
24
A Because I don't agree with the
25
requirements. I do it because I'm told -- because
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 12 of 24
13 (Pages 49 to 52)
Page 49
1
it was -- at that time it was the only -- yeah. It
2
was -- I was told I could -- that was what I had to
3
do to work towards the degrees that I've invested so
4
much time and money into, and so my fear was that
5
even though I disagreed and even though I had a
6
different opinion, I couldn't even express that
7
opinion.
8
Q And --
9
A And I'm not the only one who feels that
10
fear. Amongst my peers we can kind of figure out
11
who also is fearful. We have a way of finding each
12
other. Yeah. And, yeah, it's not just about
13
masking. It's also about personal expression and
14
the debate of ideas. Judge Leichty talked about
15
how, you know, the vaccine, the merits of it, are
16
being debated in the public square. Technically IU
17
is a public university, but we don't have those
18
kinds of debates. There's only one opinion
19
presented. So, yes, there's fear of being -- of
20
even being labeled as someone who could inflict harm
21
upon other people even though I know I -- I
22
personally can't because I'm under COVID protection.
23
Q Okay. So that's helpful. I want to back
24
up just a minute, though, just back to the masking
25
and the testing. So what I'm trying to understand
Page 51
1
A Yes.
2
Q Did you feel discriminated against for
3
wearing a mask during the 2020-2021 school year?
4
A For wearing a mask?
5
Q Yes.
6
A I'd like to think about that question if
7
it's okay. The mask isn't the only thing that makes
8
me feel discriminated against, but, no, I felt that
9
wearing the mask protected me from discrimination
10
because it's what everyone else is doing. Wearing
11
the mask kept me from standing out as someone who
12
disagreed with the policy.
13
Q Okay. And so is it fair to say, then,
14
that when you're talking about fear of
15
discrimination, that harm does not relate to the
16
last school year? It relates to this coming
17
semester, that you're fearful if you have to wear a
18
mask, you will be discriminated against?
19
A Can you be more specific by what you mean
20
with relating the two fears to each other? I'm not
21
sure what distinction you're making or wanting me to
22
make.
23
Q I'm just trying to understand whether -- I
24
think I heard you say that last school year when you
25
wore a mask during the 2020-2021 school year, you
Page 50
1
is, from the mask policy that you complied with in
2
the 2020-2021 school year, I heard you say that you
3
suffered harm because it made it more difficult for
4
you to breathe, and it --
5
A Yes.
6
Q -- also caused you to have acne. And then
7
I understood -- go ahead.
8
A It also gave me headaches.
9
Q Okay. And then I understood --
10
A And also there was potential harm. I
11
forgot that. I do work out with a trainer, and we
12
are required to wear masks even though it's him and
13
me and even though both of us might agree not --
14
that we're okay not wearing masks, we still have to
15
do it because we're in IU's building even though
16
we're in a room by ourselves. Deadlifting with a
17
mask is very dangerous, and we're required to do
18
that, because deadlifting requires you to suck in
19
enough air to fill your abdomen with air, and that's
20
what protects your -- your muscles and your -- your
21
back, and there have been times when I almost
22
injured myself because I was trying to execute a
23
deadlift with my face constricted by a mask.
24
Q Okay. You referenced fear of
25
discrimination?
Page 52
1
didn't fear being discriminated against or you
2
didn't experience being discriminated against for
3
wearing a mask; is that right?
4
A Yes.
5
Q I think I also understood you to say that
6
you are fearful of being discriminated against for
7
wearing a mask for this coming fall semester if you
8
have to wear a mask on IU's campus; is that right?
9
A May I give a full answer to that one?
10
Q Sure.
11
A Because the reasons for the discrimination
12
are different. This past school year we had no
13
vaccine requirements. The culture to get vaccinated
14
on campus is very strong. People ask each other
15
have you been vaccinated or they'll talk about
16
getting their COVID vaccine, and so while -- so in a
17
sense, getting the vaccine allows one to leave the
18
world of masks and testing. Not getting a vaccine
19
means you have to stay in the world of masks and
20
testing -- testing. So whereas wearing a mask in
21
the 2021 school year sort of kept me from being
22
discriminated against, things have changed. People
23
are leaving that world because they're getting
24
vaccinated. I'm going to have to wear a mask which
25
is a marker of choosing not to get the vaccine or
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 13 of 24
14 (Pages 53 to 56)
Page 53
1
not even choosing. It's not even my choice. It's
2
my doctor's medical opinion.
3
Q Are you aware that people who are
4
vaccinated can still have the option to wear a mask
5
if they want to?
6
A Yes.
7
Q Okay.
8
A People are not -- not everyone is choosing
9
that option.
10
Q Is it right that just by looking at
11
someone who is wearing a mask, you don't know
12
whether they're vaccinated or not?
13
A I -- I want to -- it's not a yes or no
14
answer.
15
Q How could you tell by looking at someone
16
whether they're vaccinated or not based on whether
17
they're wearing a mask?
18
A Part of the campus culture is that people
19
who are vaccinated are choosing not to wear the
20
mask. So most people on campus now are not wearing
21
masks unless they're required to.
22
Q I appreciate that --
23
A So that -- yeah. So that --
24
Q -- but that wasn't my question.
25
A No, but that is the context behind my
Page 55
1
Q Okay. Anything else?
2
A I'll leave it at that.
3
Q Okay. With respect to the testing that
4
you participated in --
5
A Uh-huh.
6
Q -- while in Bloomington last school year,
7
what harms, if any, did you experience from that?
8
A One is that I did not like giving up my
9
own -- my own -- I didn't like giving up my -- my
10
saliva because it contains, you know, personal
11
information about my biological makeup. That was
12
one harm.
13
Q Okay.
14
A Another harm was the amount of time it
15
takes, having to clear -- having to make time in
16
your schedule to go do it. Those are two I can
17
think of at the moment.
18
Q Okay. For the fall 2021 school year,
19
besides those two harms that you just identified, if
20
you were required to undergo testing during the fall
21
2021 school year, are there any other harms that
22
you're worried about related to that testing?
23
A Yes, actually, and, again, it's a
24
cultural -- it's a cultural harm. I shouldn't need
25
to be tested because -- so testing determines if
Page 54
1
question. Sure, you cannot tell by looking at
2
someone whether they've been vaccinated or not, but
3
the culture -- but there's a culture surrounding
4
that question, that context, and that's part of --
5
part of what this mandate has created. It's created
6
a culture of fear and intimidation and
7
discrimination against people who disagree with it.
8
So the culture dynamics are changing. It will be
9
much easier to assume that people who are wearing a
10
mask will not have had the vaccine.
11
Q Okay. We've talked about the harms that
12
you either experienced last school year or are
13
concerned about experiencing for the upcoming
14
semester related to masks. Besides the harms that
15
we've talked about, are there any other harms
16
related to masks that you can think of sitting here
17
today that you're concerned about or have
18
experienced?
19
A Yes. Yes. That wearing masks has created
20
this sense of distress among -- among people, and
21
the requirement has helped people to fragment and
22
break into small inner circles without
23
communicate -- you know, yes, all of those things.
24
The sense of the mandate creates isolation. I don't
25
know.
Page 56
1
you've had COVID, right, or not. People who get
2
vaccines don't have to be tested because they have
3
coverage for COVID. I have coverage for COVID.
4
Q Okay.
5
A And so the testing mandate discriminates
6
against my coverage for COVID and says it's not as
7
efficient as the vaccine when the science says
8
otherwise.
9
Q Okay. So --
10
A Actually not only the science. When my --
11
when my physician says otherwise. I can safely say
12
that.
13
Q So I understand that to be about you --
14
you're feeling as if you're being treated
15
differently from other people who you view as
16
similarly situated; is that right?
17
A Can you clarify "similarly situated"?
18
Q In that you view some individuals who have
19
been vaccinated and, therefore, according to you,
20
have coverage for COVID don't have to undergo the
21
testing and you have, you know, you believe you have
22
coverage for COVID and you do have to undergo the
23
testing?
24
A Yes. They similarly believe they have
25
coverage for COVID.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 14 of 24
15 (Pages 57 to 60)
Page 57
1
Q You don't believe that they have coverage
2
for COVID because of the vaccine?
3
A I believe that -- I don't feel comfortable
4
answering that question just because it gets outside
5
of my realm of expertise. It would literally be an
6
opinion.
7
Q That's okay. You're here to talk about
8
your opinions.
9
A I haven't -- I've only had hearsay. I
10
have not had time to research for myself. I've
11
heard that people can get COVID still. In fact, we
12
know that people -- we know that people don't
13
believe the vaccine is effective against COVID
14
because Anthony Fauci has been on the news lately
15
encouraging people to wear masks. So, no, they do
16
not believe -- people do not believe that the
17
vaccine is fully effective against COVID.
18
Q I'm asking what do you believe about the
19
vaccine? Do you believe it's effective against
20
COVID?
21
A No, I do not.
22
Q Okay. All right. I'm going to add
23
another exhibit. I understand that you have a
24
religious objection to the vaccine; is that right?
25
A Yes.
Page 59
1
A Okay.
2
Q -- look at paragraph -- I want to start by
3
looking at paragraph 194, which is on page 42, so at
4
the top of your -- go ahead.
5
A Is it okay if we take a brief break?
6
Q Sure.
7
A Like, five minutes? Is that okay?
8
Q Yeah. That's fine.
9
A Okay. All right. Thank you so much.
10
MS. GUTWEIN: Can we go off the record,
11
Luke?
12
THE REPORTER: Yes. We are off the
13
record.
14
(Briefly off the record.)
15
THE REPORTER: We are back on the record.
16
Q (BY MS. GUTWEIN) So right before we took
17
a break, I had added Exhibit 2. Are you able to
18
open that document?
19
A Yes. I have it open.
20
Q And I think I mentioned I want to start
21
with paragraph 194, which is on page 42. Can you
22
scroll to that paragraph?
23
A Yes.
24
Q Okay. Let me know when you're there.
25
A I'm here.
Page 58
1
Q Okay. And I understand that you applied
2
for and received an exemption from the vaccination
3
policy at IU based on your religious objection; is
4
that right?
5
A That is correct. Hold on a sec. I'm
6
trying to find that exhibit.
7
Q Oh, I didn't put it in yet.
8
A Oh. Okay.
9
Q Sorry. I'll let you know when I do.
10
A Uh-huh.
11
Q My understanding is that that religious
12
exemption means -- means that you could return to
13
campus in fall of 2021 without having to obtain the
14
COVID vaccine under IU's vaccination policy; is that
15
right?
16
A That is correct.
17
Q Okay. I'm going to add -- you should see
18
a document there now if you refresh called
19
Exhibit 2.
20
(Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)
21
A Okay.
22
Q Okay. And you can look at this as much as
23
you want. I want to talk specifically about the
24
statements in this that refer to you. So I want
25
to --
Page 60
1
Q Okay. So this paragraph says that you
2
obtained a religious exemption, which we just talked
3
about, but that you'd rather be exempt from the
4
vaccination policy for medical reasons; is that
5
right?
6
A Yes.
7
Q Okay. So I just -- I want to understand a
8
little bit about why you would prefer to have a
9
medical exemption over a religious exemption.
10
A Yes. The university environment tends to
11
privilege science over faith. So -- and I do have
12
scientific medical reasons for not wanting the
13
vaccine, and that's why I prefer it because that's
14
what universities privilege.
15
Q And when you say universities privilege
16
it, in what way do you think that the medical
17
exemption is privileged over the religious
18
exemption?
19
A Let me think for a moment. Because --
20
okay. Because the medical exemption is based in
21
science.
22
Q Sure. So what do you think will be
23
different about the exemption if you have a medical
24
exemption versus a religious exemption?
25
A It means that I -- there's less likelihood
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 15 of 24
16 (Pages 61 to 64)
Page 61
1
that I would be discriminated against for having a
2
different opinion.
3
Q Discriminated against by whom?
4
A My professors, my colleagues.
5
Q Do you know whether your professors would
6
know which exemption you have?
7
A I have not -- I have only been told
8
verbally by someone at the COVID hotline that my
9
professors would not have a way of knowing, but
10
you'd be surprised how much -- how much information,
11
like, is accessible by various people at the
12
university. So I don't know. I just -- I don't
13
feel comfortable with that answer anyways, and I
14
think that's because -- because -- because there is
15
religious discrimination against COVID or people are
16
being discriminated against for their religious
17
opinions on COVID and the vaccine.
18
Q How has IU discriminated against people
19
for their religious opinions on the COVID vaccine?
20
A I was told that two students were denied a
21
religious exemption when they applied for it.
22
Q Who told you that?
23
A Margaret Menge.
24
Q Other than hearing that from Margaret
25
Menge, have you had any opportunity to verify that?
Page 63
1
Q So what -- I guess what I'm trying to
2
figure out is, other than hearing it from Margaret
3
Menge and reading about it potentially, do you have
4
any way to know for sure whether or not those two
5
students actually applied for a religious exemption?
6
A I can't -- I can't see that I would. IU
7
would not broadcast something like that.
8
Q Okay. Do you have any way to know for
9
sure if they applied, whether IU actually denied
10
them religious exemption?
11
A I don't know them personally, so it's not
12
something that I would know from -- from knowing
13
them, but, no. The answer is no.
14
Q Other than --
15
A Now I'm thinking I should have gone and
16
done that, right? I just --
17
Q Other than this instance that you heard
18
about, about these two students, are you aware of
19
any other way that IU has discriminated against
20
people who have religious objections?
21
A Yes. I was discriminated against.
22
Q How so?
23
A I've had professors tell me not to speak.
24
Let me rephrase that. Well, the question is, what
25
are we considering religious; right? Does it mean
Page 62
1
A Well, I don't remember if that was part of
2
my research earlier this summer. I'm sorry. I
3
don't remember.
4
Q Do you know who the two students were that
5
you heard were denied religious exemptions?
6
A I don't remember their names. Actually I
7
think I remember reading about them. I'm not going
8
to say. I don't remember for sure. I just don't.
9
Q So is it right that you don't know the two
10
students who you believe were denied based -- denied
11
a religious exemption?
12
A No. I don't know them personally, and I
13
don't know their names.
14
Q Do you know -- do you personally know
15
whether they applied for and were denied a religious
16
exemption?
17
A Can you restate your question?
18
Q Sure. What information do you personally
19
have that causes you to be -- let me strike that.
20
Do you know, in fact, that they -- that those two
21
students that you have in mind applied for a
22
religious exemption?
23
A Can you define what you mean by "fact"?
24
Sorry. That's a term that's used very loosely these
25
days.
Page 64
1
that -- does that encompasses someone's opinion?
2
Sometimes that's what people -- sometimes that's
3
what religious refers to, not just a person's
4
position on faith, but the opinions about life in
5
general. So does -- do we mean religious in that
6
broader sense of the word or are we specifically
7
speaking to faith?
8
Q Well, you tell me. You told me that IU
9
will favor medical exemptions over religious
10
exemptions, and I'm interested in any instances in
11
which you're aware of that happening.
12
A I am so sorry. Can you state the question
13
one more time?
14
Q Sure. You -- I understood you to say that
15
you believe that IU will prefer medical exemptions
16
or individuals with medical exemptions over
17
individuals with religious exemptions.
18
A Yes.
19
Q I -- I want to know about --
20
A Yes.
21
Q -- any times that you know of where IU has
22
done that.
23
A Yes. Yes. Definitely in my program we
24
are encouraged to keep our personal faith out of --
25
out of our -- out of our -- I'm not sure how to say
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 16 of 24
17 (Pages 65 to 68)
Page 65
1
this. There's a culture, sort of an unspoken
2
culture, where if you -- there's like an academic
3
way to deal with faith and there's a nonacademic way
4
to express -- to express faith. Let me put it that
5
way. And the -- and the nonacademic expressions are
6
looked down upon. And, frankly, it's -- it's the
7
personal experience of talking about it. It's not
8
encouraged at school. We are only really allowed to
9
speak about it if we -- dealing with it in the topic
10
of evaluating faith or how it might have influenced
11
or, like, theological topics would have influenced a
12
composer like Bach. Other than that, you know, but,
13
again, that's a very -- but that's like putting the
14
science veneer on top of that rather than letting
15
religion or faith speak for itself.
16
Q Okay. I understand that to be in the
17
context of your studies. I'm interested in any
18
instance in which IU, that you're aware of, in which
19
IU has favored a medical exemption from the
20
vaccination policy over a religious exemption from
21
the vaccination policy.
22
A Okay. I have no idea.
23
Q Okay.
24
A Everything is still so new. People aren't
25
talking about it.
Page 67
1
Q What?
2
A I don't know who approves the religious
3
exemptions, but I have been told by people working
4
on the IU COVID -- who are part of the IU COVID
5
Response Team, sorry, I don't know their official
6
title, I do know that medical exemption goes before
7
a team of doctors to review and approve.
8
Q Okay. Any other differences between the
9
two exemptions that you know of?
10
A Yes. Because in a religious exemption,
11
they don't care -- they don't care if you have
12
coverage for COVID, which I have.
13
Q Right. So that relates to the criteria
14
for the exemption.
15
A Okay.
16
Q Any other differences between the effect
17
of having the exemption?
18
A And can you define what you mean by
19
"effect"?
20
Q Sure. When someone has -- what the effect
21
of obtaining a religious exemption is and what the
22
effect of obtaining a medical exemption is. We
23
talked about how both of those allow a student to
24
return to campus in the fall without getting
25
vaccinated. Are there any other differences between
Page 66
1
Q Okay.
2
A Yeah. Everything is still -- like,
3
there's still people figuring out what they're going
4
to do.
5
Q Do you understand that the consequence of
6
having a medical exemption and the consequence of
7
having a religious exemption as far as complying or
8
not -- as far as what you have to do under IU's
9
vaccination policy are the same?
10
A Can you restate the question, please?
11
Q Sure. Do you agree that the religious
12
exemption means that an individual who receives that
13
exemption does not have to get vaccinated for
14
COVID-19 to return to campus in the fall?
15
A Yes.
16
Q Do you agree that an individual who has a
17
medical exemption from the COVID-19 vaccination
18
policy does not have to get vaccinated for COVID-19
19
to return to campus in the fall?
20
A Yes.
21
Q Are there any other differences between
22
the exemptions besides one being, in your words,
23
science related and one being, you know, religious
24
or faith related that you know of?
25
A Yes, there are differences.
Page 68
1
the effect of each of those exemptions?
2
A Well, we -- just for the record, the
3
effect also includes that those students right now
4
must be masked and test -- tested.
5
Q Under both of those exemptions; correct?
6
A Yes. Yes. So, yeah, the effect isn't
7
just that a student can return to campus. It's that
8
they are restricted in other ways.
9
Q Any differences?
10
A Not that I'm aware of.
11
Q Okay. If we look -- I understand that
12
you -- if we look at paragraph 187 of the complaint,
13
which is Exhibit 2, it alleges that you were
14
horrified to discover that IU prohibits you from
15
receiving a medical exemption. What is the basis
16
for your understanding that you are prohibited from
17
receiving a medical exemption?
18
A I have two bases. One is the form itself.
19
I carefully looked at it to see if I met any of the
20
criteria listed for consideration for exemption, and
21
I did not. The other one is that I expressed my
22
concerns to my contact at student disabilities
23
for -- Disabilities Services for Students, and I
24
asked her, I said -- I said, "What do you know about
25
this exemption form and the mandate and my chances
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 17 of 24
18 (Pages 69 to 72)
Page 69
1
of getting a medical exemption?" And she said while
2
she can't speak for the committee, she has heard
3
that they are adhering to that form and to those
4
policies.
5
Q Okay.
6
A So I heard it from an IU -- from an IU
7
staff member.
8
Q Did you submit for a medical exemption?
9
A After I got the religious exemption I did
10
try, yes. Absolutely did.
11
Q So why did you try to do that if you
12
thought you didn't qualify for it?
13
A Because I thought about my preference. My
14
preference -- so I applied for the religious
15
exemption because I didn't think there was any way I
16
would get the medical exemption, but I felt like --
17
I felt like I had -- I preferred a medical
18
exemption. I have legitimate reasons for it, and so
19
that's why I reached out to IU.
20
Q What do you think that you would obtain
21
through a medical exemption that you have not
22
obtained through a religious exemption?
23
A I at least would achieve consistency
24
with -- with what I say and how I act around my
25
colleagues. I would never tell them that I disagree
Page 71
1
secure in having the religious exemption because I
2
feel like if IU can change their policy in one way,
3
they can change it in another way and actually
4
rescind that policy.
5
Q Okay. So do you have any reason to
6
believe that IU is going to change its religious
7
exemption policy besides the anecdote that you just
8
described?
9
A Not at the moment.
10
Q Okay. With respect to the two students
11
that you were just talking about, it sounds like
12
it's your understanding that they ultimately did
13
obtain a religious exemption?
14
A Yes. Actually I can tell you what would
15
lead me to have those concerns. Because I had a
16
policy change at my -- my school in the Jacobs
17
School. We were told when we came back to campus in
18
the fall semester that as long as we were in
19
practice rooms by ourselves and we had a 15-minute
20
window in between, you know, student, that we would
21
not have to wear masks. We could treat that as an
22
office space because it was just us in the room, and
23
that policy was changed, like, at the end of the
24
fall semester.
25
Q Okay.
Page 70
1
with IU's policies, I don't, but a lot of them do
2
know that I have been ill, and they're very
3
understanding when I say I can't get the vaccine for
4
medical reasons. I don't -- you don't find that
5
same understanding when you talk about it from a
6
faith perspective or religious perspective or a
7
difference of opinion perspective. So I would at
8
least, yeah, that's what I would -- that's what I
9
would gain.
10
Q Do you agree that you could tell your
11
colleagues now that you don't -- you can't get the
12
vaccine for medical reasons even with a religious
13
exemption?
14
A Yes. Yes.
15
Q So other than how you might talk about it
16
with your colleagues, what else, if anything, would
17
you gain from having a medical exemption rather than
18
a religious exemption?
19
A According to hearsay again, IU has
20
formally -- according to hearsay, we'll just call it
21
hearsay for now, IU did deny two students the
22
opportunity to have a religious exemption at first,
23
and they only caved and granted the students their
24
religious exemptions under pressure. Well, if
25
they've changed the policy, like, I don't feel very
Page 72
1
A So, yeah, IU changes policies after -- in
2
either direction, and so it creates an uncertain
3
environment, an environment when you don't know the
4
policy is going to be changed.
5
Q Do you have that same concern that the
6
policy could change with respect to a medical
7
exemption?
8
A Yes.
9
Q Okay.
10
A Medical and religious, both.
11
Q When you have referenced -- I think, if we
12
look at paragraph 193, there's a reference to a
13
medication that you're on.
14
A Yes.
15
Q You would know better than I would about
16
how to pronounce it. I'm going to take a stab.
17
Ivermectin?
18
A Yes.
19
Q Is that right?
20
A Good job.
21
Q Thank you. And it says here that your
22
understanding is that it protects you against COVID;
23
is that right?
24
A Yes.
25
Q What is the basis for that understanding?
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 18 of 24
19 (Pages 73 to 76)
Page 73
1
A My physician's -- my physician's advice.
2
Q And what did your physician tell you about
3
that?
4
A He told me that it provides coverage for
5
COVID.
6
Q So --
7
A Yeah.
8
Q -- what -- what does that mean? Did he
9
say it means you won't contract COVID?
10
A Yes.
11
Q So your understanding is that your
12
physician told you ivermectin will keep you from
13
ever contracting COVID; is that right?
14
A I wouldn't say, "from ever." He did not
15
express it in those words. Physicians aren't
16
that -- you know, they always know that there's a
17
percentage of -- there's always, you know, at least
18
a small percentage of people who fall outside that.
19
Yeah. He would not say, "ever" -- he never would
20
speak in absolutes like "ever ever." No
21
physician -- good physicians don't.
22
Q So there's still some risk even with that
23
medication that you could contract COVID?
24
A Yes. I suppose so. He and I didn't talk
25
about that part.
Page 75
1
activities at IU, and I had -- yeah. It was -- for
2
a couple reasons, the in-person activities at IU is
3
definitely one because they don't want you on campus
4
if you have COVID, and it's better to -- so I had to
5
know for -- you know, I had to know -- I had to know
6
from sure from a test if I had it.
7
Q And so one was to attend these in-person
8
activities at IU and another was to attend an
9
upcoming meeting or appointment with your physician
10
--
11
A Yes.
12
Q -- it sounds like?
13
A Yeah.
14
Q So for at least those two reasons, you got
15
tested?
16
A Yes.
17
Q But you were on this medication at that
18
time?
19
A Yes.
20
Q Okay. Do you know how much longer you
21
will be on this medication?
22
A No, I don't.
23
Q Are you aware that the FDA has not
24
approved ivermectin for treating or preventing COVID
25
in humans?
Page 74
1
Q How long --
2
A Well, actually I would like to -- if it's
3
possible, I would like to strike my answer. I don't
4
know what the answer to that question is because he
5
did not advise me.
6
Q How long have you been taking this
7
medication?
8
A Since before COVID.
9
Q Why did you get tested in October or
10
January if your understanding is you can't contract
11
COVID?
12
A Because of the -- because the university
13
requires that.
14
Q So when you were in Tulsa in October and
15
you got tested for COVID, that was because IU
16
required it?
17
A I did not get tested for COVID in October.
18
The only time I got tested for COVID of my own free
19
will, if you can even call it that, was in January.
20
Q Okay.
21
A And that's because I was trying --
22
actually it's because I had an upcoming appointment
23
with my -- with my physician.
24
Q You had an upcoming --
25
A I had -- I had -- I had in-person
Page 76
1
A Yes. I'm also aware that they haven't
2
fully approved the vaccine either.
3
Q Are you aware that the W -- the World
4
Health Organization advises that ivermectin
5
shouldn't be used to treat patients with COVID
6
outside of the clinical trials?
7
A Can you restate your question, please?
8
Q Sure. I just -- the World Health
9
Organization has published some information on
10
ivermectin in the context of COVID, and they -- they
11
have advised that ivermectin shouldn't be used in
12
patients to treat COVID outside of the clinical
13
trials that are going on right now. Are you aware
14
of that?
15
A It's been a while. You're refreshing my
16
memory. I'll say -- I'll say yes.
17
Q Okay.
18
A I will also say that the World Health
19
Organization changed its definition of "herd
20
immunity" last year.
21
Q Okay.
22
A So, again, we're seeing changes in
23
definitions and changes in policy which is creating
24
an uncertain environment for a lot of people. So
25
whether they're speaking to science, I don't know,
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 19 of 24
20 (Pages 77 to 80)
Page 77
1
but I do know that it has been documented and
2
published that they -- yes, that they have changed
3
definitions that were held for 100 years at least
4
about "herd immunity," so --
5
Q So whether it was --
6
A -- the short answer is yes.
7
Q You mentioned that --
8
A So the short of that is to say -- and just
9
because I'm aware that the World Health Organization
10
says that, doesn't mean -- it doesn't mean that I'm
11
going to trust their definition over my own
12
physician.
13
Q Sure. Okay. You mentioned that the FDA
14
has not -- has approved the COVID vaccines through
15
emergency use -- excuse me, if I could talk, the FDA
16
has approved the COVID vaccine through emergency use
17
authorization; is that right?
18
A I did not state that, but that was the
19
implication, yes.
20
Q Okay. And you said that when I was asking
21
you about whether you were aware that the FDA has
22
not approved ivermectin for treating or preventing
23
COVID in humans.
24
A Correct.
25
Q So, in your mind, what causes you to feel
Page 79
1
studies on the COVID vaccine?
2
A Not aware of that, no.
3
Q Have you reviewed any studies that the
4
medical community has performed on the COVID
5
vaccine?
6
A I am. I'm just -- I don't have specific
7
ones in mind right at this moment.
8
Q Okay. But you have looked at those at
9
some point, some studies?
10
A Briefly, yeah.
11
Q Okay.
12
A There's a lot of information coming out
13
all the time as you know.
14
Q That's true. If we look at paragraph 192
15
--
16
A Can I add to my answer because you were
17
asking in the context of COVID. In the context
18
of -- in the context of medical treatment in
19
general, ivermectin has been around a long time, and
20
it won the Nobel Prize as an effective drug, and it
21
has very minimal side effects. I don't notice when
22
I take it, which is -- yeah.
23
Q Okay.
24
A So, yeah. I think we need -- I think
25
that's important to recognize relative to the
Page 78
1
comfortable or safe taking ivermectin and knowing
2
that it, you know, believing that it will prevent
3
you from contracting COVID but causes you to be
4
concerned about the vaccines even though the FDA
5
hasn't, to your mind, fully approved, you know,
6
either of those in the COVID context?
7
A In the context of COVID? Okay. Because I
8
know of other -- I know of many studies that have
9
been done on ivermectin efficacy and COVID. Look,
10
I'm going to -- yeah. So there's been a lot of
11
studies done that the FDA did not reference in their
12
advice, and that the World Health Organization did
13
not reference in their advice. One of them -- those
14
studies were conducted in part with Eastern Virginia
15
Medical School, and I can tell you that some of
16
their -- the doctors who study there -- it's not
17
some, you know, you know, measly medical school in
18
the middle of nowhere. Some of the physicians that
19
had their residencies there now treat at Walter
20
Reed, which is where the president goes for their --
21
and the vice president and other high level
22
officials go for medical treatment. So, yeah,
23
people know what they're doing at that school, so I
24
have good reason to -- to trust that study.
25
Q Do you know whether they've performed any
Page 80
1
vaccine. Ivermectin has been around a lot, lot
2
longer.
3
Q Okay. I want to look back at Exhibit 2 in
4
paragraph 192.
5
A Okay.
6
Q At the end of that paragraph -- well, we
7
can say it -- it refers to you objecting to extra
8
requirements of masks and testing. Do you see that?
9
A Yes.
10
Q And we talked about that earlier.
11
A Yes.
12
Q And one of the reasons that it says that
13
you object is the extremely minimal risk of severe
14
complications or death from COVID to somebody in
15
your age group.
16
A Yes.
17
Q Do you see that?
18
A Uh-huh.
19
Q What do you consider to be your age group?
20
A You could say 30 to 40.
21
Q Okay.
22
A I guess.
23
Q Yeah. Whatever you -- I just wanted to
24
understand what you meant, so there's no right
25
answer. It's just, you know, when you're thinking
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 20 of 24
21 (Pages 81 to 84)
Page 81
1
about what you -- what you verified here, what age
2
group did you have in mind?
3
A That was -- we did not discuss a
4
particular range, so I -- I did not have anything in
5
mind.
6
Q Okay.
7
A Not at the time. And I -- we should
8
probably -- we should go with that.
9
Q Okay.
10
A Because, like I said, 30 to 40, I was -- I
11
was guessing now, but honestly we didn't talk about
12
that.
13
Q Okay.
14
A That was ...
15
Q So when you're thinking about the minimal
16
risk of severe complications or death to a
17
particular age group, what did you have in mind with
18
this sentence?
19
A Well, in my -- okay. In mind, I think of
20
age group really broadly because it's known that
21
COVID tends not to be deathly for someone -- sorry.
22
I'm thinking out loud. I was thinking, like, my age
23
group as anywhere from zero to, like, 70.
24
Q Okay.
25
A Just because the risks of dying from COVID
Page 83
1
the other whether --
2
A No.
3
Q -- anyone between the ages of 20 and 40
4
has died from COVID?
5
A Not factually, no.
6
Q Okay. And that's just fine.
7
A That's a good thing, I guess. It means my
8
friends are all still here, right?
9
Q Yes. That's true. That is good. That's
10
great. This paragraph refers to your objections to
11
the masking and testing requirements, and it talks
12
about how you have an objection for the reasons that
13
we just talked about, and because they're
14
unreasonable, and do you have any other objections
15
to the masking and testing requirements besides the
16
unreasonableness and the minimal risk of
17
complications listed here?
18
A Do I have -- sorry. Can you state that
19
one more time?
20
Q Sure. Besides the objections that are
21
listed here that you believe the masking and testing
22
requirements be unreasonable and that there is
23
minimal risks from COVID for people in your age
24
group, do you have any other objections to the
25
masking and testing requirements?
Page 82
1
or even being hospitalized now are so low for most
2
of the people in this world. It's really the
3
geriatric population and comorbidities and obesity.
4
No one talks about the obesity component, but my
5
economist friends wrote about the statistics on
6
that. A lot of people who have died from COVID were
7
obese, and clearly I'm not, and a lot of people in
8
my age group at IU anyways are pretty healthy, so
9
...
10
Q Are you aware that there are individuals
11
between the ages of 20 and 40 who have had to be
12
hospitalized for COVID?
13
A Yes.
14
Q And are you aware that there have been
15
individuals between the ages of 20 and 40 who have
16
died from COVID?
17
A I can't answer that specifically. My
18
assumption is that someone in -- at least one person
19
in every age group has died from COVID. That's my
20
assumption.
21
Q Okay.
22
A I can't back -- but it's as hearsay is my
23
knowledge that students have -- were not granted
24
their religious exemption from IU.
25
Q Right. So you just don't know one way or
Page 84
1
A Yes, I do.
2
Q Are they objections that we've talked
3
about today or are they other objections?
4
A They are objections that we've talked
5
about today. It's about the culture that goes along
6
with those tests -- masking and testing mandates.
7
The culture of, you know, students -- I mean, IU has
8
set up a -- has a -- has a form that you can fill
9
out if you find someone in noncompliance. Yes, I
10
have an objection based to the mandate itself, to
11
the fact that it -- that there's severe punitive --
12
punitive consequences attached to violating this
13
mandate. I object to the -- I mentioned the
14
culture, the culture of fear of tattle-telling on
15
other people. It has changed campus life. We do --
16
students do not trust each other like they used to
17
which is unfortunate. I also object to the fact
18
that such a culture has created an environment where
19
people feel free to ask each other if they've gotten
20
the vaccine which is private medical information. I
21
object to -- yeah. I have a lot of objections
22
wrapped up into that one.
23
Q Okay. Do you have any religious objection
24
to masking?
25
A Yes.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 21 of 24
22 (Pages 85 to 88)
Page 85
1
Q What is that?
2
MS. SIEBERT: Objection. You're asking
3
about her specific religious beliefs. That's beyond
4
the constitutional bounds of what you can ask.
5
MS. GUTWEIN: Are you instructing her not
6
to answer, Melena?
7
MS. SIEBERT: I am.
8
Q (BY MS. GUTWEIN) Why didn't you include
9
your religious objections when you listed your other
10
objections here to masking?
11
A I'm sorry. Can you -- can you -- when you
12
say, "here," that's the part I'm not sure about.
13
What do you mean?
14
Q Sure. In paragraph 192.
15
A Okay. So you're referring to the written,
16
not the spoken?
17
Q Yes.
18
A I actually want to take a moment just to
19
look through my comments, if that's okay.
20
Q Sure.
21
A Because I do -- yeah. I want to look for
22
a moment. Okay. My statement reflects my general
23
position, which is that I prefer to speak of my
24
objection -- even though I have religious
25
objections, I still prefer to speak of my objection
Page 87
1
what you will do if the court allows IU to continue
2
with its policies?
3
A Yes. Wait a minute. I'm sorry. What was
4
your question?
5
Q I asked you what you will do if the court
6
allows IU to continue with its policies.
7
A Uh-huh.
8
Q And you said you'd rather cross that
9
bridge once the court has issued its opinion.
10
A Uh-huh.
11
Q So I'm asking, does that mean you don't
12
know what you will do if IU can continue with its
13
COVID policies?
14
A Not concretely, no.
15
Q Is it possible that you will decide to
16
continue studying at IU even if you have to wear a
17
mask and participate in testing in the fall?
18
A It is possible, but only -- only because
19
I've sunk seven years into this degree. I cannot
20
just transfer to another school and pick up where I
21
started -- pick up where I left off. Doctoral
22
programs do not work that way.
23
Q And I commend you for all of the work that
24
you've done. That is real commitment.
25
A Thank you.
Page 86
1
in terms -- in medical terms.
2
Q Did you have a sincerely held religious
3
objection to masking over the last school year?
4
A Yes.
5
Q Do you have a sincerely held religious
6
objection to testing?
7
A Yes.
8
Q Did you have that objection over the last
9
school year?
10
A Yes.
11
Q So is it correct that you've had a
12
sincerely held religious objection to masking even
13
when you've been at home in Tulsa and opted to wear
14
a mask?
15
A Yes.
16
Q Okay. If the court --
17
A And where allowed -- where allowed, I
18
would not wear a mask.
19
Q Sure. Okay. If the court were to decide
20
that IU can maintain its policies that you're
21
challenging, what will you do for the fall 2021
22
semester?
23
A I prefer to cross that bridge when I --
24
after hearing the court's decision.
25
Q So is your testimony that you don't know
Page 88
1
Q Yeah.
2
A Yeah. I'm a year away from being able to
3
conduct the rest of my research away from campus,
4
so, yeah.
5
Q You see the light at the end of the
6
tunnel?
7
A It's getting closer.
8
MS. GUTWEIN: Yeah. Melena, I think I
9
have no further questions.
10
MS. SIEBERT: Thanks, Stephanie.
11
CROSS-EXAMINATION
12
BY MS. SIEBERT:
13
Q Jaime, I just have a couple of just
14
follow-up questions, and I was a band geek, but I
15
twirled a flag, so I don't -- my musical talent is
16
limited to that.
17
A How fun.
18
Q So I'm going to base some music questions
19
here on probably some stupidity honestly about it,
20
but I know you mentioned that one of the effects,
21
harms, that you -- you testified that one of the
22
harms you felt from having to wear the mask was that
23
it was hard to breathe; is that correct?
24
A Yes. Absolutely.
25
Q Is that especially true when you're
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 22 of 24
23 (Pages 89 to 92)
Page 89
1
playing the organ?
2
A Yes.
3
Q Okay.
4
A I had a professor -- my professor -- one
5
of my professors gave a recital in March, and she
6
had asked if she could perform it without wearing
7
the mask, and she was told no even though she was
8
the only person in the room other than the sound guy
9
who came in every so often. And so we all watched
10
it live stream, and she told me she was struggling
11
to breathe, and you could see that her glasses were
12
fogging up. So, yes, it was a hardship for her, and
13
I can see that. Like, I already have a struggle,
14
you know, a struggle with it, yes. I'm not -- I
15
don't want to have to give my recital under those
16
conditions. Other people at IU don't have to wear
17
masks when they perform. Football -- football --
18
excuse me, basketball players aren't doing it. I
19
don't see why musicians have to. We are -- the
20
organ loft is feet, feet away from other people in
21
the room, and we don't even fill, like, the concert
22
hall to capacity. Sorry. That's a long answer to
23
your question, but --
24
Q No. I learned a lot about organ playing
25
quite honestly there. So I just, you know, I can
Page 91
1
education to wear a mask in the fall?
2
THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Was there an
3
answer to the previous question?
4
THE WITNESS: No.
5
MS. SIEBERT: Sorry, Luke. We got ahead
6
of you, there. No. I believe -- Stephanie, do you
7
want to repeat your objection just so we can clarify
8
for Luke? Sorry.
9
MS. GUTWEIN: That's okay. For the
10
question that was unanswered, Luke, my objection was
11
leading.
12
Q (BY MS. SIEBERT) Okay. And, Jaime, I'd
13
like to rephrase that. So can you tell me what kind
14
of impact you think having a mask would have on your
15
education this next year?
16
A Okay. On my education?
17
Q Yes.
18
A Having a mask would -- it would cause
19
physical harm in highly -- in high performance
20
situations by limiting the amount of oxygen I can
21
take in, especially during performances when -- when
22
I need as much oxygen as possible to perform at my
23
very best. I actually -- I saw my professor's
24
recital. She made more mistakes than she ever does.
25
She's a very precise person, and I'm concerned
Page 90
1
envision -- you know, my husband was a trumpet
2
player, so I can envision how it would be hard, you
3
know, that breath and so forth is more intricate and
4
involved with that kind of music playing, but I was
5
just wondering how that impacted organ playing, so
6
to speak.
7
A Yes. Organ playing -- we don't think of
8
musicians as being athletes, but we definitely are.
9
Q Yeah.
10
A An organist especially because we use our
11
whole body. We play with our feet, too, so we're
12
using all of our extremities to be very precise.
13
Yeah.
14
Q So is it --
15
A So the precision again is part of the
16
culture of music now, and that can create extra
17
stress which impacts everything, your cortisol
18
response, your heart rate, your breathing, yeah.
19
Q Okay. So is it fair, then, to say that if
20
you are required to wear a mask in the fall during
21
your recitals and any other organ practicing or
22
whatever that you're doing on campus, that that
23
would impact your education negatively?
24
MS. GUTWEIN: Objection. Leading.
25
Q (BY MS. SIEBERT) How would it impact your
Page 92
1
that -- and I'm concerned that that could happen to
2
me as well simply because I can't get the oxygen I
3
need to function properly at the level that Jacobs
4
requires. It's one of the best music schools in the
5
world. So -- so their standards are -- so they have
6
very high standards.
7
Q Jaime, just curious. What do you want to
8
do with your -- your degrees, your Ph.D. and your
9
doctorate, after? Do you want to teach or perform
10
or what do you want to do?
11
A Probably a combination of those things.
12
Perhaps also work in the music industry since I'm
13
very interested in music ownership.
14
MS. SIEBERT: Very cool. I have no
15
musical talent, so I'm impressed. So that's it for
16
me.
17
MS. GUTWEIN: I have no further questions.
18
THE REPORTER: Does the witness want to
19
read and sign?
20
MS. SIEBERT: Yes, please.
21
MS. GUTWEIN: Can we go off the record?
22
THE REPORTER: We are off the record.
23
(Deposition concluded at 2:55 p.m. CST)
24
25
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 23 of 24
24 (Pages 93 to 95)
Page 93
1
JURAT
2
KLAASEN, ET AL. VS. TRUSTEES OF INDIANA UNIVERSITY
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I, Jaime Carini, do hereby state under
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oath that I have read the above and foregoing
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deposition in its entirety and that the same is a
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full, true and correct transcription of my testimony
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so given at said time and place.
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_________________________________
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Signature of Witness
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Subscribed and sworn to before me, the
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undersigned Notary Public in and for the State of
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_________ by said witness, Jaime Carini, on this
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________day of__________________, 2021.
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_________________________________
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NOTARY PUBLIC
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MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:___________
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JOB FILE #151678
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Page 95
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CERTIFICATE
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I, D. Luke Epps, Registered Professional
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Reporter, and Certified Shorthand Reporter, do
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hereby certify that prior to the commencement of the
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examination, Jaime Carini was duly remotely sworn by
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me to testify to the truth, the whole truth and
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nothing but the truth.
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I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing is
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a verbatim transcript of the testimony as taken
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stenographically by me at the time, place and on the
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date hereinbefore set forth, to the best of my
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ability.
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I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a
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relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of
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any of the parties to this action, and that I am
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neither a relative nor employee of such attorney or
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counsel, and that I am not financially interested in
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the action.
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____________________________
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D. Luke Epps, CSR, RPR
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Dated: June 8, 2021
Page 94
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ERRATA SHEET
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KLAASEN, ET AL. VS. TRUSTEES OF INDIANA UNIVERSITY
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DEPOSITION OF JAIME CARINI
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REPORTED BY: D. LUKE EPPS, CSR, RPR
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DATE DEPOSITION TAKEN: JUNE 1, 2021
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JOB FILE NO. 151678
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PAGE LINE IS SHOULD BE
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___________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-22 filed 07/12/21 page 24 of 24File and source
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