Court filing
Deposition of D.J.B. — Klaassen v. Indiana University
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2021-07-12 |
U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana · No. 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC · Doc. 31-23 · 2021-07-12 · Docket on CourtListener
Summary
Excerpts from the deposition of D.J.B., a plaintiff appearing by his next friend and father in Klaassen v. The Trustees of Indiana University, Case No. 1:21-cv-00238, in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana, filed July 12, 2021 as document 31-23. The deposition was taken remotely on June 29, 2021 before a certified shorthand reporter, with examination by counsel for the university and later by counsel for the plaintiffs. The excerpts cover the reporter's preliminaries, the deponent's understanding of his involvement in the lawsuit, how his family came to contact the law firm, and his review of the complaint and its exhibits. An index lists two exhibits, a Signed Verification and a Verified Complaint for Declaratory and Injunctive Relief, and counsel asks about the verification page and the 254 paragraphs of the complaint. The excerpt is 13 pages.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Full text
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
FORT WAYNE DIVISION
RYAN KLAASSEN, JAIME CARINI, )
D.J.B., by and through his )
next friend and father, )
DANIEL G. BAUMGARTNER, )
ASHLEE MORRIS, SETH CROWDER, )
MACEY POLICKA, MARGARET ROTH, )
and NATALIE SPERAZZA, )
)
Plaintiffs, )
) CASE NO.
-vs- ) 1:21-cv-00238
)
THE TRUSTEES OF INDIANA )
UNIVERSITY, )
)
Defendant. )
DEPOSITION OF D.J.B.
June 29, 2021
Remote oral deposition of D.J.B., commencing
at 4:00 p.m. Central Standard Time, on the above
date, before CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968,
Registered Professional Reporter, Certified
Realtime Reporter and Notary Public.
GOLKOW LITIGATION SERVICES
877.370.3377 ph / 917.591.5672 fax
deps@golkow.com
Page 3
1
I N D E X
2
D.J.B. EXAMINATION
3
BY MS. RICCHIUTO.............. 4
BY MS. SIEBERT................ 45
4
5
6
7
E X H I B I T S
8
D.J.B. DEPOSITION EXHIBIT MARKED FOR ID
9
No. 1 Signed Verification 9
10
No. 2 Verified Complaint for 13
Declaratory and Injunctive
11
Relief
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page 2
1
APPEARANCES
All Parties Appearing Via Zoom Videoconference
2
3
ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
4
THE BOPP LAW FIRM
1 South 6th Street
5
Terre Haute, Indiana 47807
812-232-2434
6
BY: MELENA S. SIEBERT, ESQ.
msiebert@bopplaw.com
7
8
9
10
ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
11
FAEGRE DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH LLP
300 North Meridian Street, Suite 2500
12
Indianapolis, Indiana 46204
317-237-0300
13
BY: ANNE K. RICCHIUTO, ESQ.
anne.ricchiuto@faegredrinker.com
14
STEPHANIE GUTWEIN, ESQ.
stephanie.gutwein@faegredrinker.com
15
16
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
DANIEL BAUMGARTNER
LISA BAUMGARTNER
19
20
21
22
REPORTED BY: CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968
23
24
Page 4
1
THE REPORTER: All parties to this deposition
2
are appearing remotely and have agreed to the
3
witness being sworn in remotely.
4
Due to the nature of remote reporting,
5
please pause briefly before speaking to ensure all
6
parties are heard completely.
7
Counsel will be noted on the
8
stenographic record.
9
Counsel, do you so stipulate to the
10
remote swearing in of the witness?
11
MS. SIEBERT: We do. Plaintiff's counsel
12
does.
13
MS. RICCHIUTO: We do.
14
(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
15
sworn.)
16
MS. RICCHIUTO: Thank you.
17
D.J.B.,
18
called as a witness herein, having been first duly
19
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
20
EXAMINATION
21
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
22
Q. Hi, Daniel. My name is Anne Ricchiuto.
23
I'm a lawyer for Indiana University that's
24
defending them in this lawsuit, and I'm going to be
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 1 of 13
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
Page 5
1
the one taking your deposition today.
2
The only thing that I want to make sure
3
to add to the reporter's kind of technical comments
4
is that if we have any issues that arise, if you
5
lose us or we lose you or Melena loses us, we will
6
all let one another know and try to get back
7
together as quickly and as smoothly as we can.
8
As the reporter mentioned, your lawyer
9
might want to interpose some objections to some of
10
my questions and if she does that, that's fine.
11
You will still need to answer the question unless
12
she tells you not to.
13
Have you ever had your deposition taken
14
before?
15
A. I have not, no.
16
Q. Okay. So, just briefly about the
17
process, and this is -- it's an odd process and
18
it's especially odd to do kind of on the computer
19
from your house.
20
But you understand that you're under
21
oath to testify truthfully today to the best of
22
your ability, correct?
23
A. Yes.
24
Q. Okay. And I'm going to be posing
Page 7
1
you answer the question, I'm going to assume that
2
you understood it. Can we agree on that?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. Okay. And then the other thing that's
5
really hard is we know that we have the reporter
6
and she can only take down things that she can
7
hear. So, we have to do a good job of making sure
8
that we're answering audibly, and I can help you or
9
Melena can help you, you know. Shrugs or uh-uhs or
10
um-hmms, the things that we all say naturally just
11
don't transcribe very well. So, we'll try to work
12
as a team to make sure that we get answers on the
13
record that we can use going forward.
14
Now, I understand that you and your dad
15
have the same first and last name, is that right?
16
A. That is correct.
17
Q. Okay. And your lawyer and I I think
18
have agreed that I can call you Daniel during this
19
deposition. Is that okay with you? Are you
20
comfortable with that?
21
A. That's all right, yeah.
22
Q. Okay. Will you please state your name
23
for the record.
24
A. D.J.B.
Page 6
1
questions to you, and I'm interested in your
2
answers to those questions. So, I know that it's a
3
little bit confusing since your folks are with you,
4
but your answers are the ones that I'm interested
5
in.
6
Do you have any notes or documents with
7
you?
8
A. Yes.
9
Q. Okay. Are those notes that you created
10
or that someone created for you?
11
A. My parents helped me with them.
12
Q. Okay.
13
MS. RICCHIUTO: Melena, we'll want to request
14
a copy of those notes.
15
MS. SIEBERT: Okay.
16
MS. RICCHIUTO: Okay.
17
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
18
Q. If you make any other notes, Daniel,
19
while we are talking today, I just need to let you
20
know -- I need you to let me know so that your
21
lawyer can give those to me as well.
22
I'm going to try to ask clear questions
23
that make sense for you to answer. If you don't
24
understand my question, I want you to tell me. If
Page 8
1
Q. How old are you, Daniel?
2
A. I'm 17.
3
Q. When do you turn 18?
4
A. July 11.
5
Q. What is your understanding of your
6
involvement in this lawsuit?
7
A. To my understanding, I am -- I have been
8
given a religious exemption, and I'm looking to get
9
an exemption for mask and COVID testing.
10
Q. Okay. Who is the party to this lawsuit
11
as far as you know? Is it you or your dad?
12
A. My father.
13
Q. Okay. How did you become aware that
14
there was going to be a lawsuit suing Indiana
15
University?
16
A. My parents informed me after contacting
17
the law firm.
18
Q. Did they -- do you know, did they
19
contact Mr. Bopp's firm specifically?
20
A. They did, yes.
21
Q. Okay. Whose idea was it to participate
22
in the lawsuit? Was that something that you wanted
23
to do or something that your parents want to do?
24
A. We all agreed on it.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 2 of 13
3 (Pages 9 to 12)
Page 9
1
Q. Okay. I want to show you a document, if
2
I can pull it off, Daniel. Let's see. This will
3
be our first test.
4
MS. RICCHIUTO: Do you have -- do they have,
5
Melena, the exhibit portal up?
6
MS. SIEBERT: They were sent a link.
7
Do you have that up, Daniel, the link to
8
the exhibit portal that I sent to you all?
9
THE WITNESS: I do not have it up now, no.
10
MS. SIEBERT: If you could just --
11
MS. RICCHIUTO: No problem.
12
MS. SIEBERT: -- get that up. We can give you
13
a couple minutes. That's no problem.
14
Sorry to interrupt, Anne.
15
MS. RICCHIUTO: No, that's no problem.
16
THE WITNESS: We got it up.
17
(WHEREUPON, D.J.B. Deposition
18
Exhibit No. 1 was marked for
19
identification: Signed
20
Verification.)
21
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
22
Q. Okay. So, do you see a verification
23
page that's got kind of some blue writing across
24
the top?
Page 11
1
A. Yes.
2
Q. Okay. What does this verification
3
page mean?
4
A. That I have to answer to the best of my
5
knowledge and understanding.
6
Q. Okay. This is a document that was
7
filed -- I'll -- this is not meant to be -- this is
8
not meant to be a quiz, so I'll just give you some
9
context, Daniel.
10
This is a document that was filed with
11
the Complaint, which is the document that kind of
12
starts the lawsuit on behalf of you and some others
13
against IU. And people who are filing a lawsuit
14
that's called verified, they typically sign a
15
document like this to say that the things that are
16
about them in the lawsuit are true.
17
And, so, what I think this document does
18
is say that your dad has verified that the
19
information about you that's in the lawsuit that
20
we'll look at is all true. But it sounds like at
21
least this piece of paper, what didn't -- isn't
22
necessarily something that you were involved with.
23
Is that right?
24
A. That is correct.
Page 10
1
A. Yes.
2
Q. Okay, great.
3
MS. RICCHIUTO: Melena, do you have that too?
4
Are you able to get that?
5
MS. SIEBERT: I do.
6
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
7
Q. So now we are all looking at the same
8
document.
9
Is this a document that you've seen
10
before, Daniel?
11
A. I don't know.
12
Q. Okay. Is that your handwriting on it?
13
There is a printed name at the top and a signature
14
at the bottom. Is that your handwriting and
15
signature or is that your dad?
16
A. I'm not sure. It looks like my
17
father's.
18
Q. Okay. That's fine. Do you have any
19
understanding of what this verification does or
20
means? This is something that was filed with the
21
court in this case.
22
A. Yes.
23
Q. You do have an understanding of what it
24
means?
Page 12
1
Q. Yeah. And that's just fine. I'm
2
just -- today is just a day for me to get some
3
information. So, we're -- that's all I'm trying to
4
do is just understand.
5
Have you read the Complaint in this
6
case, the actual lawsuit document?
7
A. I have.
8
Q. Okay. Have you -- did you review all
9
the exhibits to it?
10
A. I did.
11
Q. Okay. Do you know, if I asked you if
12
you agree if everything in the Complaint is
13
accurate, would you be able to answer that?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. You agree that everything in the
16
Complaint is accurate?
17
A. I do.
18
Q. And is your answer to that question
19
limited to information about you or you agree that
20
everything in the whole 254 paragraphs is correct?
21
A. I believe that it is all correct.
22
Q. Okay. You are an incoming freshman, is
23
that right?
24
A. That is correct.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 3 of 13
4 (Pages 13 to 16)
Page 13
1
Q. Okay. Have you registered for your
2
classes yet?
3
A. I have, yes.
4
Q. What are you going to be studying?
5
A. I was planning on studying business.
6
Q. Okay. Do you have a dorm assignment or
7
living arrangements organized yet?
8
A. Nothing was assigned yet.
9
Q. Okay. Daniel, have you been vaccinated
10
against COVID-19?
11
A. I have not.
12
Q. Whose decision was it for you not to be
13
vaccinated against COVID-19?
14
A. It was my own.
15
Q. Do you have plans to get vaccinated in a
16
couple weeks when you turn 18 or thereafter?
17
A. I have no plans on getting vaccinated.
18
Q. Okay. I'm going to show you one other
19
document if I can. I think if you refresh that
20
website, you will see one more document pull up.
21
(WHEREUPON, D.J.B. Deposition
22
Exhibit No. 2 was marked for
23
identification: Verified Complaint
24
for Declaratory and Injunctive
Page 15
1
specifically about you. You're referenced as
2
Mr. D.J.B. or Plaintiff D.J.B. in this document.
3
Have you seen these specific paragraphs
4
before?
5
A. I have, yes.
6
Q. Okay. And are they accurate?
7
A. They are accurate, yes.
8
Q. Okay. And one of the things that they
9
say in paragraph 196 is that you sought and were
10
granted a religious exemption to the vaccine,
11
right?
12
A. That is correct.
13
Q. Do you see that?
14
A. That is correct, yes.
15
Q. Very briefly, can you just explain the
16
basis of your religious objection to the vaccine.
17
MS. SIEBERT: Anne, I'm going to object to
18
this line of questioning as any kind of State
19
involvement into the basis for religious exemption
20
would be unconstitutional.
21
Daniel, you may go ahead and answer.
22
BY THE WITNESS:
23
A. I have a moral conscience given to me by
24
God telling me that I do not need a vaccine because
Page 14
1
Relief.)
2
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
3
Q. And do you see at the top where there is
4
the numbers like page 1 of 55, kind of in the
5
left-hand corner?
6
A. Yes.
7
Q. Okay. We're going to be going to
8
page 42. So, you can either type 42 in that box or
9
you can scroll down to page 42. But we're looking
10
for the allegations starting with the one numbered
11
196.
12
A. I got it.
13
Q. Okay. Are we together?
14
MS. RICCHIUTO: Melena, are you good?
15
MS. SIEBERT: I am.
16
MS. RICCHIUTO: Okay, great.
17
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
18
Q. These paragraphs 196 through 200 of the
19
Complaint that's been marked as Exhibit 2, and you
20
can -- you're welcome to look at any part of the
21
document. This is the part I'm going to focus on.
22
But this is the lawsuit that was filed by your
23
lawyers on your behalf, yours and others.
24
Paragraphs 196 through 200 are
Page 16
1
I have natural antibodies.
2
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
3
Q. Okay. Then if we move on to paragraph
4
197, there is a reference to some extra
5
requirements applied to you. Do you see that
6
reference, Daniel?
7
A. I see that, yes.
8
Q. Do you have an understanding of what
9
extra requirements are being referenced in that
10
paragraph?
11
A. I do.
12
Q. Okay. And what are those?
13
A. Wearing a mask at all times on IU
14
property and being tested for COVID two times a
15
week.
16
Q. Okay. And it says that you also have a
17
sincerely held religious objection to those two
18
requirements. Is that accurate?
19
A. That is correct.
20
Q. Is that religious objection the same as
21
the one that you just identified or is it something
22
different?
23
MS. SIEBERT: Anne, I'm going to object again
24
to that line of questioning because of the same
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 4 of 13
5 (Pages 17 to 20)
Page 17
1
constitutional basis.
2
Daniel, you may answer.
3
BY THE WITNESS:
4
A. It is the same.
5
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
6
Q. Okay. Do you attend any kind of house
7
of worship, Daniel?
8
A. Yes.
9
MS. SIEBERT: Again, Anne, I'm going to object
10
to this specific line of questioning.
11
Daniel, you may answer this -- this
12
question.
13
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
14
Q. And I'm just looking for, if it helps,
15
I'm just looking for a yes or a no. I don't need
16
to know what it is or what religion it is.
17
A. Yes.
18
Q. Okay. Did you visit that -- that
19
physical location in person during 2020 at all?
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. Okay. About how many times?
22
A. I don't know.
23
Q. Was it closer to monthly, closer to
24
weekly, closer to daily?
Page 19
1
in place today?
2
A. I don't know.
3
Q. Okay. Were there times that you
4
physically attended this location and wore a mask?
5
A. Yes.
6
Q. Were there other times since March of
7
2020, without regard to your house of worship or
8
other places that you might exercise your religion,
9
that you have worn a mask specifically related, you
10
know, not Halloween, but specifically related to
11
the COVID-19 pandemic?
12
A. There were times I didn't have to.
13
Q. Okay. I'm trying to understand your
14
mask wearing practices and experiences since
15
March of 2020.
16
Like, for example, my parents live in
17
Illinois. I know the orders there have been pretty
18
stringent.
19
Have there been times since March of
20
2020 that you have worn a mask at any location?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. Can you give me some examples of places
23
that you have worn masks?
24
A. In school, at stores, two main examples.
Page 18
1
A. Monthly.
2
Q. Was there ever a time that that house of
3
worship required masking since the pandemic started
4
in March of 2020?
5
MS. SIEBERT: Anne, I'm going to object to
6
this line of questioning again, first, on
7
constitutional basis and, secondly, because
8
whatever his house of worship requires has nothing
9
to do with what IU may or may not require.
10
Daniel, I'll let you go ahead and answer
11
this question. But I would state that too many
12
more questions about his specific religious
13
practices will not be answered.
14
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
15
Q. And, again, I'm not asking a question
16
about your religious practices, Daniel. I'm just
17
asking if the physical location where you exercise
18
your religion, whether they had any masking
19
requirements since March of 2020.
20
A. Yes.
21
Q. Do you -- do you have any idea when
22
those were implemented?
23
A. I don't know.
24
Q. Do you have any idea if those are still
Page 20
1
Q. Have you, for example, flown on an
2
airplane?
3
A. Yes, I have.
4
Q. Did you have to wear a mask to do that?
5
A. Yes, I did.
6
Q. Okay. Do you attend a public school or
7
private school for high school? Did you I guess I
8
should say.
9
A. Private.
10
Q. Private. Okay. And were you required
11
to wear a mask at all times while you were at
12
school?
13
A. They had a rule, yes.
14
Q. And did you comply with it?
15
A. I did.
16
Q. Okay. So, stores, schools. So, schools
17
every day or were you on hybrid?
18
A. We were hybrid for the first semester.
19
Q. Okay. So, if I were trying to get a
20
sense of how often since March of 2020 you have
21
worn a mask, how would you help me identify that?
22
Is it every time you left the house, something
23
else?
24
A. It was not every time I left the house,
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 5 of 13
6 (Pages 21 to 24)
Page 21
1
no.
2
Q. Is it -- sorry. Go ahead.
3
A. In school they required masks around
4
once a week. The stores required masks. That was
5
basically it.
6
Q. So, schools, stores and your place of
7
worship are all places that you wore masks or have
8
worn masks since March of 2020. Does that sum up
9
your testimony?
10
A. That is correct.
11
Q. Okay. Anywhere else that you can think
12
of that you have worn a mask to protect yourself or
13
others from COVID-19 since 2020?
14
A. Nothing primarily, no.
15
Q. Okay. You -- the Complaint says, if we
16
turn back to the -- to the document, paragraph 198,
17
Daniel, which is on the next page there, it says,
18
"Mr. D.J.B.," that's you, "recently had a COVID
19
antibody test which revealed that he still has
20
antibodies."
21
Do you see that?
22
A. I do, yes.
23
Q. I want to ask you about that. When was
24
that recent COVID antibody test?
Page 23
1
COVID antibody tests?
2
A. I do not.
3
Q. What was the reason that you got an
4
antibody test in early June?
5
A. To see if I had the natural antibodies
6
for COVID.
7
Q. Was it just something you were curious
8
about or was there a reason that you were
9
interested in that information?
10
A. My mother wanted to see if I had natural
11
antibodies for COVID.
12
Q. And I assume you got that test at some
13
sort of medical facility, is that right?
14
A. That is correct.
15
Q. And then as a result of that test, the
16
Complaint says that you filed a medical exemption
17
at IU, which is a separate exemption from the --
18
from the religious exemption. Is that right?
19
A. Yes, that is correct.
20
Q. Okay. And that exemption was not
21
granted the Complaint says, is that right?
22
A. That is correct.
23
Q. Okay. What is the basis of your
24
understanding that you do not need to be vaccinated
Page 22
1
A. It was in the beginning of June.
2
Q. Okay. What was the result of that test?
3
A. The result showed that I still had COVID
4
antibodies.
5
Q. And when you say "still," tell me what
6
you mean by that.
7
A. That my body successfully fought off
8
COVID and I have the antibodies.
9
Q. Was there another time before the
10
beginning of June that you had a COVID antibody
11
test?
12
A. There was not, no.
13
Q. Okay. Your early June COVID antibody
14
test, did it tell you what level of antibodies you
15
have?
16
A. I'm not sure, no.
17
Q. Do you have any understanding of what
18
level of antibodies you need to be immune from
19
COVID?
20
A. I don't know.
21
Q. Do you have any understanding of how
22
long COVID antibodies last in the human body?
23
A. I don't know.
24
Q. Do you have any religious objections to
Page 24
1
if you have antibodies?
2
A. I have a moral conscience that has been
3
given to me by God telling me that I do not need
4
the vaccination.
5
Q. Okay. I just want to make sure that I
6
understand that answer. Does that answer depend
7
upon whether or not you have antibodies, Daniel?
8
A. I'm not sure what you're asking.
9
Q. Okay. That was not a very good
10
question. So, I'm glad you said that.
11
Earlier we talked about -- I think I got
12
a similar answer to the question about just kind of
13
generally what your objection was to receiving the
14
vaccine, and now I'm trying to understand what your
15
understanding is of why you wouldn't need to be
16
vaccinated if you have antibodies.
17
A. I believe that I do not need the COVID
18
vaccine because my moral conscience tells me that I
19
have the antibodies and I do not require the
20
vaccine.
21
Q. Okay. Is there anything else besides
22
your moral conscience that your understanding that
23
you don't need the vaccine is based on?
24
A. Can you please rephrase your question.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 6 of 13
7 (Pages 25 to 28)
Page 25
1
Q. Sure. Let's take a look at your
2
Complaint. And it says in 200 -- I just want to
3
make sure that you -- that I'm doing a better job
4
with my questions.
5
In paragraph 200 it said, the second
6
sentence says, "He objects to these extra
7
requirements as they are not necessary since he
8
already has natural antibodies."
9
Do you see that?
10
A. I do, yes.
11
Q. And that's what I'm trying to
12
understand. What is the basis for that
13
understanding, that masking and testing are not
14
necessary because you have natural antibodies?
15
A. I believe that I do not need the COVID
16
vaccine or to wear a mask or to be tested because I
17
have natural antibodies and according to my moral
18
conscience tells me I don't need them because of
19
that.
20
Q. Has a physician told you that you don't
21
need or any medical professional told you that you
22
don't need to mask or be tested because of your
23
antibodies?
24
A. No medical professional has directly
Page 27
1
Q. Did you know that you had COVID at the
2
time that you apparently had COVID?
3
A. I believed I did.
4
Q. Okay. So, tell me if I'm -- if I'm
5
getting this right. I don't want to put words in
6
your mouth.
7
Was there a time in 2020 that you
8
thought you might have had COVID but you just
9
didn't get tested to confirm that?
10
A. That is correct.
11
Q. Okay. Were you experiencing symptoms
12
that have been known to be associated with COVID?
13
A. Yes, I was.
14
Q. Okay. And that was sometime in 2020?
15
A. Correct.
16
Q. So, without knowing at the time whether
17
you actually had COVID, we get to June of 2021, and
18
I think you said your mom wondered if you had
19
antibodies, is that right?
20
A. That is correct.
21
Q. Do you know why she was interested in
22
whether you had antibodies in June of 2021?
23
MS. SIEBERT: It looks like they might have
24
frozen up, Anne.
Page 26
1
told me that, no.
2
Q. Has any medical professional told you
3
that you would not benefit from receiving the COVID
4
vaccine because of your antibodies?
5
A. No one has told me that, no.
6
Q. Okay. Have you had COVID in the past,
7
Daniel?
8
A. Yes, I have.
9
Q. Do you know how many times?
10
A. I've had it one time.
11
Q. When was that?
12
A. I'm -- I don't know.
13
Q. Was it in 2020 or 2021?
14
A. 2020.
15
Q. How did you know that you had it?
16
A. Because it showed up on the antibody
17
test.
18
Q. Okay. So, you just learned in June of
19
2021 that you had had COVID in 2020. Is that -- do
20
I understand your testimony right?
21
A. That is correct.
22
Q. Did you have any -- have you ever had a
23
COVID test?
24
A. I have not, no.
Page 28
1
MS. RICCHIUTO: I think you might be right.
2
(WHEREUPON, there was a short
3
interruption.)
4
THE REPORTER: Back on the record.
5
MS. RICCHIUTO: Thank you.
6
BY MS. RICCHIUTO:
7
Q. Do you know why your mom was interested
8
in June of 2021 in whether you had COVID
9
antibodies?
10
A. To file for a medical exemption from the
11
COVID.
12
Q. Okay. From the requirement at IU?
13
A. Yes, that's correct.
14
Q. Okay. Going back to when you believed
15
that you may have had COVID in 2020. What were
16
your symptoms?
17
A. Coughing, a high temperature fever, loss
18
of taste, loss of taste and smell.
19
Q. Is that it?
20
A. That was it, yes.
21
Q. For how long were you sick?
22
A. Two days.
23
Q. Did you need any medical care?
24
A. I did not, no.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 7 of 13
8 (Pages 29 to 32)
Page 29
1
Q. Did you miss school?
2
A. I was hybrid for those days.
3
Q. Was there a reason why if you had COVID
4
symptoms why you didn't get tested at the time?
5
A. I did not believe I needed to get
6
tested.
7
Q. Why not?
8
A. Because I believed that I had the COVID.
9
Q. Okay. So, you felt certain that you had
10
it and didn't think it was necessary to confirm
11
that with a test. Is that fair?
12
A. That is correct.
13
Q. On these days that you had symptoms,
14
were you living in a -- in a residence with other
15
people?
16
A. I was, yes.
17
Q. Did you wear a mask at that time?
18
A. I did not, no.
19
Q. Did anybody else in the residence wear a
20
mask on the days that you had COVID symptoms?
21
A. They did not, no.
22
Q. Why did you not wear a mask on the days
23
that you had COVID symptoms?
24
A. I felt it would be ineffective.
Page 31
1
COVID.
2
Q. Okay. So, it's not that you're not
3
likely to get COVID, correct?
4
A. Correct.
5
Q. Is there something that you're -- that
6
you're looking at or reading from, Daniel, when
7
you're answering my questions?
8
A. I'm looking at the document that was
9
shared.
10
Q. Okay. So, just to make sure that I
11
understand, this sentence about extremely minimal
12
risk of COVID to those in your age group, it's not
13
a belief that people in your age group are not at
14
risk to contract COVID. Is that correct?
15
Let me ask it a different way.
16
A. I'm not sure.
17
Q. That's probably too backwards. Let me
18
ask it a different way.
19
Do you agree that people in your age
20
group can and do contract COVID?
21
A. I do.
22
Q. And you yourself contracted COVID,
23
right?
24
A. That is correct.
Page 30
1
Q. Ineffective in what way?
2
A. From spreading it.
3
Q. Okay. So, you have -- do I understand
4
that it's your belief that masks are not effective
5
in preventing the spread of COVID?
6
A. That is correct.
7
Q. Okay. In paragraph 200 of the
8
Complaint, Daniel, which is where we were, it says
9
that you object generally to the extra
10
requirements, which we said were masks and testing
11
I think you said.
12
And then that last sentence says, you
13
object "given their unreasonableness and the
14
extremely minimal risk of COVID to those in his age
15
group." And I just want to ask you a few questions
16
about that.
17
What do you consider to be your age
18
group?
19
A. Young adults and teenagers.
20
Q. What is your understanding -- this says
21
that there's an extremely minimal risk of COVID to
22
those in your age group. What's your understanding
23
of the risk of COVID to those in your age group?
24
A. That I am highly likely to recover from
Page 32
1
Q. Okay. So, I just want to make sure that
2
I understand what it is that's the minimal risk,
3
and what I think your testimony was is that the
4
minimal risk is that you are likely to recover if
5
you do get it. Is that accurate?
6
A. That is accurate.
7
Q. Okay. Is there anything that you want
8
to -- is there any way that you want to say that
9
differently than the way that I've kind of restated
10
your testimony?
11
A. I do not, no.
12
Q. Okay. When you had COVID and were
13
living with others, was that your folks?
14
A. Yes, it was.
15
Q. Okay. Did either of them develop COVID
16
symptoms, either before or after you had your COVID
17
symptoms?
18
A. Not after, no.
19
Q. Okay. Did one or both of your parents
20
have COVID symptoms before you had yours?
21
A. My father.
22
Q. Okay. Do you know if your father had a
23
COVID test when he had symptoms?
24
A. I'm not sure.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 8 of 13
9 (Pages 33 to 36)
Page 33
1
Q. Did anyone in the house wear masks while
2
your father was experiencing his COVID symptoms?
3
A. No one wore masks, no.
4
Q. Do you know if you got COVID from your
5
father or from some other source?
6
A. I'm not sure who I got it from, no.
7
Q. Okay. You weren't part of like some
8
kind of contact tracing effort where someone
9
contacted you and said, "This kid you sit next to
10
in school has it," or something like that, is that
11
right?
12
A. That is correct.
13
Q. Do you have any reason to think that you
14
could have gotten COVID from someone other than
15
your dad?
16
A. I'm not sure now.
17
Q. With respect to the minimal risk of
18
COVID to those in your age group, do you -- I think
19
we said you agree that you can get COVID. Do you
20
agree that people in your age group can spread
21
COVID to others?
22
A. I agree with that.
23
Q. Okay. Can you explain to me
24
specifically how you are harmed by -- how you will
Page 35
1
to you if you are required to wear a mask on campus
2
this fall?
3
A. I believe there may be harm.
4
Q. And what would that harm be?
5
A. The mask itself harming my body.
6
Q. Okay. Let's talk about that.
7
What kind of harm are you worried about
8
resulting from wearing a mask?
9
A. Breathing in the fabrics which had been
10
proven to be harmful.
11
Q. Proven by whom?
12
A. The medical professional who spoke in
13
this case prior to this one or prior to today.
14
Q. Okay. I've got to try to figure out who
15
that might be.
16
Have you spoken to a medical
17
professional with respect to this case that told
18
you that breathing in fabrics have proven to be
19
harmful?
20
A. I have not spoken directly, no.
21
Q. Okay. Do you know the name of this
22
person?
23
A. I do not recall his name.
24
Q. Okay. But you think he's associated in
Page 34
1
be harmed by wearing a mask on campus in
2
Bloomington this fall?
3
A. I will feel discriminated against and
4
peer-pressured to get the vaccine.
5
Q. Okay. Where did those -- those are
6
things -- it sounds to me like those are things
7
that you are thinking might happen in the future,
8
right, that you will feel discriminated against and
9
peer-pressured.
10
Are those things that have happened to
11
you already?
12
A. I felt that way.
13
Q. Were you made to feel that way by
14
Indiana University?
15
A. I'm not sure.
16
Q. Or by other students at IU?
17
You haven't gotten to school yet, right?
18
So, I'm just trying to figure out if
19
these are things that you're worried about might
20
happen or things that have happened to you as a
21
result of your being an incoming student at IU.
22
A. These are things that I am worried about
23
happening.
24
Q. Okay. Any other harm that will result
Page 36
1
some way with this case?
2
A. Yes.
3
Q. Could he be somebody that maybe your
4
lawyers have hired to express some scientific
5
opinions?
6
A. I believe so, yes.
7
Q. Okay. Okay. So, this person says that
8
breathing in fabrics has proven to be harmful. And
9
what is the harm that results from breathing in
10
fabrics, either based on this person or based on
11
your own understanding?
12
A. I do not remember.
13
Q. But as you sit here you're concerned
14
that if you wear a mask in Bloomington this fall
15
you'll be harmed by breathing in the fabrics. Is
16
that accurate or not?
17
A. That is correct.
18
Q. Okay. Did you have that concern in 2020
19
when you wore a mask at school and stores?
20
A. I did, yes.
21
Q. Have you experienced any harm as a
22
result of wearing masks -- wearing a mask to school
23
and stores in 2020?
24
A. I have not yet.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 9 of 13
10 (Pages 37 to 40)
Page 37
1
Q. Okay. That was -- that was -- talk
2
about how masking might harm you. What is the harm
3
that you will experience, if any, from being tested
4
for COVID while you're at school at Bloomington?
5
A. Can you rephrase your question, please.
6
Q. Sure. One of the -- one of the things
7
that is at issue in this case is how or whether you
8
and the other Plaintiffs will be harmed if you are
9
required to wear a mask and undergo COVID testing
10
while you are at school this fall.
11
And, so, I want to -- I want to
12
understand what is the harm that you expect or
13
anticipate or are concerned about resulting
14
specifically from being COVID tested this fall at
15
Bloomington.
16
A. I'm not sure how to answer that.
17
Q. Okay. Well, let me start with something
18
easier.
19
Do you believe that you will be harmed
20
by being COVID tested in Bloomington this fall?
21
A. I do.
22
Q. Okay. In what way will you be harmed?
23
A. The chemicals of the cotton swab.
24
Q. Okay. Tell me more about that. Is this
Page 39
1
cotton swab harm?
2
A. I have not spoken to a medical
3
professional about those.
4
Q. So, when is -- when did you see this
5
document that identified the chemical issue and the
6
fabric issue?
7
A. I saw the document yesterday.
8
Q. Okay. So, that was after this lawsuit
9
was filed, is that right?
10
A. That is correct.
11
Q. Okay. And before you saw that document,
12
did you have any understanding of any harm that you
13
could experience or would experience if you wore a
14
mask on campus?
15
A. I believed that before, yes.
16
Q. Believed what before?
17
A. That masks and the fabrics in them could
18
cause bodily harm before seeing the document.
19
Q. Did you have a concern about the
20
chemicals on cotton swabs before yesterday?
21
A. Yes.
22
Q. And where did that concern come from?
23
When's the first time you had that concern?
24
A. I'm not sure.
Page 38
1
the cotton swab that would be used to conduct the
2
testing?
3
A. Yes.
4
Q. Okay. And tell me about the chemicals
5
of the cotton swab.
6
A. I don't know.
7
Q. Okay. Where does the -- where does your
8
understanding come from that there could be
9
chemicals on the cotton swab that would harm you if
10
you were COVID tested?
11
A. The medical professional who spoke in
12
this case earlier.
13
Q. Okay. Is this the same professional who
14
gave you the information about the fabrics?
15
A. Yes.
16
Q. Okay. Is he somebody that you've spoke
17
to live or got to see speak or is this something
18
that you've seen that he wrote down?
19
A. Seen what he wrote down.
20
Q. Have you ever talked to him?
21
A. I have not.
22
Q. Okay. Have you ever talked to any
23
medical professional about either the fabric, the
24
breathing in the fabrics harm or the chemical
Page 40
1
Q. Was it in 2020?
2
A. No.
3
Q. Do you know if it was before this
4
lawsuit was filed?
5
A. It was not.
6
Q. Okay. So, sometime after the lawsuit
7
was filed you became concerned that chemicals in a
8
cotton swab could harm you if you're tested for
9
COVID. Is that accurate?
10
A. That is correct.
11
Q. Okay. When are you scheduled to move to
12
campus?
13
A. I'm not sure. I believe it is the week
14
before classes start.
15
Q. I think that -- I think that's like the
16
early 20s. Does that sound right to you?
17
A. Sounds right, yeah.
18
Q. Okay. Does your move to Bloomington
19
depend upon whether an injunction is granted in
20
this case?
21
A. I'm not sure yet.
22
Q. What will that depend on?
23
A. The mask restrictions and the testing.
24
Q. Okay. So, you know you're exempt from
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 10 of 13
11 (Pages 41 to 44)
Page 41
1
the vaccine, right? So you won't -- you're free to
2
move to Bloomington without the vaccine. Is that
3
your understanding?
4
A. Yes.
5
Q. Okay. But if the -- if the Court
6
determines that it is appropriate for you to wear a
7
mask and undergo testing, is it your intention that
8
you will or won't move to Bloomington as scheduled
9
in August?
10
A. I have not decided yet.
11
Q. Okay. And what will that decision be
12
based on?
13
A. My moral conscience.
14
Q. Who will make that decision about
15
whether you go to Bloomington in August?
16
A. Myself.
17
Q. If you -- do you have any plans to get
18
another antibody test, Daniel?
19
A. Not as of now.
20
Q. If you were to get an antibody test in
21
the future and it reflected that you either no
22
longer had antibodies or a medical professional
23
told you that your antibodies were low enough that
24
they weren't, you know, clinically effective with
Page 43
1
A. Yes.
2
Q. Okay. And I don't -- I'm not allowed to
3
ask and I don't want to know what your lawyers
4
talked to you about. I'm going to hope that it --
5
that the experience wasn't as bad as maybe they
6
would have led you to believe that it could be.
7
But you don't have to answer. That's not a real
8
question.
9
Other than the meeting that you had with
10
your lawyers and the other Plaintiffs to prepare
11
for the deposition, do you -- you said you have had
12
no contact with the other Plaintiffs, is that
13
right?
14
A. I've had no contact, correct.
15
Q. Okay. Your antibody test, is that a
16
blood test?
17
A. It was a blood test, correct.
18
Q. Okay. And do you have any kind of
19
religious objection to blood testing?
20
A. I do not.
21
Q. Do you have religious objections to any
22
other medical procedures?
23
A. I do not.
24
Q. Have you -- I've got two little boys. I
Page 42
1
respect to COVID, would any of the views that we've
2
talked about in your deposition today, would any of
3
those views change?
4
A. No.
5
Q. So, regardless of whether or not you
6
have antibodies, you have a religious and practical
7
objection to masking. Is that fair?
8
A. That is correct.
9
Q. And regardless of whether or not you
10
have antibodies, you have a religious and/or
11
practical -- I mean, you tell me -- objection to
12
testing. I just want to make sure I understand
13
your views.
14
A. That is correct, yes.
15
Q. Okay. In terms of -- in terms of this
16
lawsuit, do you know any of the other Plaintiffs?
17
A. I do not, no.
18
Q. Have you had any communication with
19
them?
20
A. There was a prep virtual call yesterday
21
with them in there.
22
Q. Was that to talk about the depositions?
23
A. That is correct, yes.
24
Q. Okay. With your lawyers?
Page 44
1
don't know if you're an accident-prone person.
2
Are you a kid who needed like stitches
3
or who had broken bones a lot when you were growing
4
up?
5
A. I was not, no.
6
Q. Okay. Have you ever had to go to the
7
hospital?
8
A. A few times.
9
Q. Okay. And has there ever been -- and I
10
don't need to know what it is. But has there ever
11
been a treatment that's been offered to you
12
medically that you have refused based on a
13
religious objection?
14
A. I don't think so.
15
Q. Okay.
16
MS. RICCHIUTO: Melena, do you have any
17
questions that you want to ask your witness on the
18
record?
19
MS. SIEBERT: I just had actually just a
20
couple.
21
MS. RICCHIUTO: Okay. I'll pass the witness
22
for now. Okay.
23
MS. SIEBERT: I'm sorry. I missed that last
24
part, Anne.
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 11 of 13
12 (Pages 45 to 48)
Page 45
1
MS. RICCHIUTO: I just said I will pass the
2
witness for now, then.
3
MS. SIEBERT: Okay, great.
4
EXAMINATION
5
BY MS. SIEBERT:
6
Q. Actually, Daniel, I think I just have
7
one question.
8
Earlier Anne had asked you if you
9
thought that everything in the Complaint was
10
correct. Do you remember that?
11
A. Yes.
12
Q. Okay. And you, to my recollection,
13
answered that you thought everything was correct?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. Okay. I want to just clarify, were
16
you -- when you answered that question, were you
17
thinking about the specific allegations that might
18
relate to the other Plaintiffs' specific situations
19
or were you thinking more generally about the
20
Complaint?
21
A. I was thinking more generally.
22
Q. Okay. Do you have any basis of personal
23
knowledge for whether the allegations that
24
specifically relate to the other Plaintiffs are
Page 47
1
working from during his testimony.
2
MS. SIEBERT: Yes. Of course. He'll give
3
those to us. We'll review of course for any
4
privileged information. But then, yes, we will
5
send those along.
6
MS. RICCHIUTO: Okay.
7
(Time Noted: 4:58 p.m.)
8
FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NAUGHT.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Page 46
1
correct or not?
2
A. I'm not sure.
3
Q. Okay. Let me -- probably a bad
4
question.
5
Do you have any personal knowledge about
6
the background, either medical or religious or
7
personal background, of the other Plaintiffs?
8
A. I do not, no.
9
Q. Okay.
10
MS. SIEBERT: I think that's all I have.
11
MS. RICCHIUTO: Okay. Thank you. Thank you,
12
Daniel. Thank you to Mr. and Mrs. Baumgartner for
13
letting us talk to your son tonight. That's all
14
the questions that I have.
15
Melena, I don't know if you want to read
16
and sign or anything. I'll let you.
17
MS. SIEBERT: Read and sign would be great.
18
And I don't know exactly how the process
19
will be with roughs and the final and things like
20
that that come through, but we'll comply with
21
whatever timing needs to happen there.
22
MS. RICCHIUTO: Okay. And then the last thing
23
I just want to make sure that we have on the record
24
is the request for the notes that Daniel was
Page 48
1
I, CORINNE T. MARUT, C.S.R. No. 84-1968,
2
Registered Professional Reporter and Certified
Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify:
3
That previous to the commencement of the
examination of the witness, the witness was duly
4
sworn to testify the whole truth concerning the
matters herein;
5
That the foregoing deposition transcript
was reported stenographically by me, was thereafter
6
reduced to typewriting under my personal direction
and constitutes a true record of the testimony
7
given and the proceedings had;
That the said deposition was taken
8
before me at the time and place specified;
That the reading and signing by the
9
witness of the deposition transcript was agreed
upon as stated herein;
10
That I am not a relative or employee or
attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of
11
such attorney or counsel for any of the parties
hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in
12
the outcome of this action.
13
__________________________________
14
CORINNE T. MARUT, Certified Reporter
15
(The foregoing certification of this
16
transcript does not apply to any
reproduction of the same by any means, unless under
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the direct control and/or supervision of the
certifying reporter.)
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USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 12 of 13
13 (Pages 49 to 52)
Page 49
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INSTRUCTIONS TO WITNESS
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Please read your deposition over
4
carefully and make any necessary corrections. You
5
should state the reason in the appropriate space on
6
the errata sheet for any corrections that are made.
7
After doing so, please sign the errata
8
sheet and date it.
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You are signing same subject to the
10
changes you have noted on the errata sheet, which
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will be attached to your deposition.
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It is imperative that you return the
13
original errata sheet to the deposing attorney
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within thirty (30) days of receipt of the
15
deposition transcript by you. If you fail to do
16
so, the deposition transcript may be deemed to be
17
accurate and may be used in court.
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19
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Page 51
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ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT
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I, D.J.B., do hereby certify under
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oath that I have read the foregoing pages, and that
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the same is a correct transcription of the answers
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given by me to the questions therein propounded,
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except for the corrections or changes in form or
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substance, if any, noted in the attached Errata
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Sheet.
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_______________________________________
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D.J.B. DATE
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Subscribed and sworn
to before me this
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_____ day of ______________, 20____.
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My commission expires:______________
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____________________________________ Notary Public
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Page 50
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E R R A T A
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PAGE LINE CHANGE
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REASON: ____________________________
Page 52
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LAWYER'S NOTES
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PAGE LINE
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____ ____ ____________________________
USDC IN/ND case 1:21-cv-00238-DRL-SLC document 31-23 filed 07/12/21 page 13 of 13File and source
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