Court filing
Exhibit 15 Briggs Deposition Excerpts — Marshall v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC (Dkt. 142-20, E.D. Pa. No. 5:21-cv-04337)
Filed August 22, 2024 in Marshall v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC; one of 344 filings from this case.
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2024-08-22 |
U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania · No. 5:21-cv-04337-JMG · Doc. 142-20 · 2024-08-22 · Docket on CourtListener
Full text
Ex. 15 – Excerpts of Deposition of William Briggs,
dated August 22, 2024
Case 5:21-cv-04337-JMG Document 142-20 Filed 10/04/24 Page 1 of 10
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
215-341-3616 transcripts@everestdepo.com
Everest Court Reporting LLC
Page: 1 (1)
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA
2
3
ALICIA MARSHALL, et. al., )
4
individually and on behalf of )
all others similarly situated, )
5
)
Plaintiffs, )
6
vs. )Case No.
)5:21-cv-04337-JMG
7
PRESTAMOS CDFI, LLC., )
)
8
Defendant. )
9
10
11
REMOTE DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM BRIGGS
12
Thursday, August 22, 2024
13
Austin, Texas
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
Reported By: TRICIA J. LATHOURIS, CSR, RPR
22
JOB NO. 31471
23
24
Case 5:21-cv-04337-JMG Document 142-20 Filed 10/04/24 Page 2 of 10
Page 25
1 recall the specifics.
2 Q Okay. Well, when you say "I may have been
3 involved," is it your recollection that you had
4 purchased a defective product and received money in
5 compensation for that at some point in time?
6 A I have never received compensation from a
7 class action lawsuit.
8 Q Okay. When you say "never," you mean
9 either as a purchaser of a product or service or a
10 service provider, excepting this lawsuit and Capital
11 Plus?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Okay. What is your understanding of the
14 requirements to have a class action?
15 MR. LEDERER: Objection to form.
16 BY MR. ROGERS:
17 Q You can answer, Mr. Briggs. Let me just be
18 clear, Mr. Briggs.
19 Larry is going to object from time to time.
20 That does not relief you of the obligation to
21 answer. The only way that you are relieved of that
22 obligation is if Larry instructs you not to answer.
23 MR. ROGERS: So, with that, can you read back
24 my question, Tricia.
Page 26
1 (Record read as requested.)
2 MR. LEDERER: Objection to form. And, yes,
3 Mr. Briggs, to the extent you can answer, you can
4 answer.
5 A My understanding of class action -- I'm
6 sorry. Can we ask the question one more time?
7 MR. ROGERS: Let me restate it in a simpler
8 fashion.
9 BY MR. ROGERS:
10 Q What is a class action lawsuit?
11 A My understanding of what a class action
12 lawsuit, is that it is a certain type of lawsuit
13 generally composed of multiple class members, i.e.,
14 More than one or two parties, multiple parties, and
15 that there are certain requirements that distinguish
16 a class action lawsuit from, say, a normal lawsuit
17 where there are two parties.
18 Q And what requirements are you referring to?
19 A My understanding is that, generally, there
20 are civil procedure requirements and certain
21 elements that are required in order for a lawsuit to
22 be certified as a class action lawsuit.
23 Q Can you identify them for me, please?
24 A I can identify one, which is numerosity,
Page 27
1 and some other ones, but I am not an expert in class
2 action litigation.
3 Q You're not a lawyer, are you, Mr. Briggs?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q You used the term "class representative."
6 What is a class representative?
7 A Can you restate the question or restate it
8 in a different way?
9 Q What is a class representative?
10 A A class representative, as far as I
11 understand, is someone who is a part of the class, a
12 member of that class -- class action lawsuit.
13 Q Let's try this with an illustration.
14 The lawsuit that we are -- the lawsuit that
15 brings us together today is being brought on behalf
16 of a class.
17 Is that your understanding.
18 A Yes.
19 Q And that class has been defined by counsel
20 for the class; correct?
21 A Correct.
22 MR. LEDERER: Objection to form. He still may
23 answer.
24 BY MR. ROGERS:
Page 28
1 Q And is it fair to say that a class
2 representative is an individual that fits the
3 definition of the class? Is that your
4 understanding?
5 A That is my understanding.
6 Q And we're going to get to your report in a
7 little while because in your report you -- both your
8 reports -- you talk about class actions and class
9 definitions, and we're going to get into that in a
10 little bit, but let's take a step back, if we can.
11 When were you hired by Bailey Glasser in
12 this case? Not Capital Plus, but this case.
13 A I believe earlier this year I was hired.
14 Q Earlier in 2024?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Do you remember when?
17 A I don't remember the specific date.
18 Q How did you come to meet lawyers at Bailey
19 Glasser?
20 A I can't recall how the first introduction
21 was made. In my role I have introductions or
22 recommendations for my services made by a lot of
23 people that I'm not even aware of.
24 Q Did you negotiate your hourly rate with
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
215-341-3616 transcripts@everestdepo.com
Everest Court Reporting LLC
Page: 10 (25 - 28)
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Page 45
1 overall very proficient in discussing the Paycheck
2 Protection Program requirements.
3 Q When you say "expert" has a certain
4 meeting, is it your understanding that Judge Pittman
5 is using "expert" in terms of its legal meaning?
6 MR. LEDERER: Objection to form. You're asking
7 him to speculate regarding what Judge Pittman was
8 thinking?
9 BY MR. ROGERS:
10 Q I'm asking you what your understanding is.
11 You used the phrase "certain meanings of
12 the term 'expert,'" or something to that effect, and
13 I'm just asking you whether the "certain meanings"
14 you're referring to are legal.
15 MR. LEDERER: Objection to form. You can
16 answer.
17 A I can't say for sure.
18 BY MR. ROGERS:
19 Q I want to go back to page 5. Get out of
20 footnote 2 and go back to the paragraph that we
21 began with. It says, "These experts claim that any
22 failure to cancel a loan 'for whatever reason'
23 within 20 days of issuance of an SBA number would
24 'be inconsistent with the program and in violation
Page 46
1 of the rules.' But while this reading of the
2 provision would solve the commonalty issue here, the
3 Court disagrees with this interpretation."
4 Correct?
5 A That's what it says, correct.
6 Q Was there a reason you didn't feel it
7 relevant to your report, which is discussing what
8 you regard as the differences between Capital Plus
9 and this case, that the opinion you expressed in the
10 Capital Plus case was one that did not carry the
11 day?
12 MR. LEDERER: Objection to form. You can
13 answer.
14 A "The Court disagrees with this
15 interpretation" is the opinion of Judge Pittman.
16 BY MR. ROGERS:
17 Q I understand that.
18 Is that opinion relevant in your mind to
19 this case?
20 A That specific interpretation, I think, in
21 this case and -- I'm sorry, in the Capital Plus
22 case, my understanding was -- I just disagree with
23 that.
24 Q I appreciate that you disagree with that.
Page 47
1 I'm asking you whether the interpretation,
2 whether you agree or disagree, whether interpreting
3 this section of your opinion in Capital Plus is
4 relevant in this lawsuit?
5 And it's just your understanding. I
6 understand you're not a lawyer, and I'm not asking
7 you to give me a definition or legal relevance or
8 apply that term.
9 I'm just asking you whether the opinion
10 that you've given in the Capital Plus case is
11 relevant in any way to the opinion that you are
12 giving in this case?
13 A I believe the regulations were clear and
14 that cancellation, the 20-day cancellation, was one
15 of the more clearer things of that -- of the
16 program.
17 Q Did Judge Pittman grant class certification
18 in the Capital Plus case?
19 A My understanding is he did not.
20 Q You also mention -- and we can go to your
21 report for this -- in paragraph 32, after you note
22 the denial of class certification, you say,
23 "However, in this lawsuit, the class that the
24 plaintiffs allege is narrower than the class alleged
Page 48
1 in the Capital Plus." And you go on to say that
2 "The class here is not a nationwide class but only
3 covers those in the plaintiffs' respective states."
4 Correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q How does that affect your opinion in this
7 case?
8 A My opinion is that the narrower class is a
9 more precise definition, and the narrower class
10 result are more geared to those plaintiffs and
11 potential class members who were harmed.
12 Q And you say that -- based on the sentence
13 you write -- at least in part you write -- that "The
14 class in this case," the Prestamos case, "is not a
15 nationwide class."
16 Correct?
17 A That is my understanding, correct.
18 Q And I know we can agree that that is your
19 understanding. I mean, I'm not disputing that that
20 is your understanding.
21 Have you, in your professional life, dating
22 back to 1999, ever had occasion to analyze or
23 articulate the differences between a nationwide
24 class and a multi-state class?
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
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1 A I have not.
2 MR. LEDERER: Objection to form.
3 BY MR. ROGERS:
4 Q That's not an area of expertise of yours;
5 correct?
6 A As I established before, I am not an expert
7 in civil procedure.
8 Q Or class action practice?
9 A Correct.
10 Q So I'm just going to ask you one more
11 question about that section.
12 Why did you think it was necessary for you,
13 as a non-lawyer, to add to your expert report that
14 the difference between a nationwide class and a
15 multi-state class should matter here? Why did you
16 include that statement?
17 A I included that statement because overall
18 it is consistent with my belief that this narrower
19 case focuses on those who are harmed as opposed to
20 anyone who had participated in some form with the
21 Paycheck Protection Program, that it was a much
22 narrower focus on those who were harmed.
23 Q How did you come up with the idea to
24 differentiate on nationwide class and multi-state
Page 50
1 class?
2 A I wanted to know why -- what the difference
3 was myself.
4 Q You didn't know what the difference was
5 until someone told you; correct?
6 A I believe I took that from the Prestamos'
7 Second Motion to Dismiss.
8 Q Why don't we, actually, go to what you just
9 referred to, which is the Prestamos Motion to
10 Dismiss opinion, and then we'll move on. Again,
11 this is 36 pages.
12 Can you tell by looking at the face of it
13 whether it's the Prestamos Motion to Dismiss opinion
14 you just referred to?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You've read that decision?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So you are aware that in this case the
19 plaintiffs attempted to certify -- have attempted to
20 bring the case on behalf of a nationwide class;
21 correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q And you're aware that Judge Gallagher has
24 ruled that they can't do that; correct?
Page 51
1 A Correct.
2 Q So it is Judge Gallagher who is responsible
3 for the narrowing you refer to in paragraph 32 of
4 your report; correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q I want to talk about the PPP loan program
7 for a few minutes.
8 In your own words, what was the purpose of
9 the PPP?
10 A The PPP was a program, an emergency
11 program, that was put up March of 2020 in response
12 to the government-mandated shutdowns. The mission
13 -- or the ultimate goal of the PPP was to support
14 small businesses and their employees through the
15 worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.
16 Q Is it fair to say that the PPP differed
17 from other SBA loan programs in that it allowed for
18 a simplified application?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And that required borrower documentation
21 was streamlined so that the money could get out
22 quickly?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And that meant there would be minimal
Page 52
1 regulatory paperwork or other conditions?
2 A Correct.
3 Q But you agree that an applicant needed to
4 provide certain documents in order to get a PPP
5 loan?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And included in that group of documents
8 were documentation of payroll records?
9 MR. LEDERER: I'm sorry. Could you repeat the
10 question, please? Sorry.
11 MR. ROGERS: I'm going to rephrase it.
12 BY MR. ROGERS:
13 Q Among the documents required to be provided
14 were payroll records; correct?
15 A There were multiple types of documents that
16 could be provided.
17 Q Tell me what those were.
18 A Some examples include payroll records, tax
19 forms and/or bank records.
20 Q Okay. Were any of those required?
21 A I believe that some form of documentation
22 was required sufficient that the bank could make a
23 loan calculation determination.
24 Q When you say -- what do you mean by "loan
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
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1 A The lender -- I think different lenders had
2 different threshold amounts for determining whether
3 the applicant was eligible or not.
4 Q I'm not talking about -- what do you mean
5 by threshold amounts?
6 A I mean, whether the lender was able to use
7 a variety of resources, including payroll, tax
8 returns, I guess Schedule C, and bank records to
9 help them make -- as part of the application
10 process, or to make that decision.
11 Q Let me refine the hypothetical for you here
12 so that we can try to get an understanding of what
13 you're saying.
14 My hypothetical class member has no payroll
15 records. So put that to one side.
16 My hypothetical class member has no income
17 reported on the 1040. My hypothetical class member
18 has filed a Schedule C, which is the sole document
19 that it has filed with the Internal Revenue Service
20 that has income reported.
21 Are you with me so far?
22 A Yes.
23 Q My hypothetical sole proprietor wants a PPP
24 loan and is applying for a PPP loan. That person
Page 78
1 fills out an application. Okay? There is a form
2 application -- and I know that it has an equation --
3 and we can look at it -- maybe we'll look at it
4 after the next break if we're unable to reach a
5 common understanding here -- can look at it, it
6 talks about Schedule Cs.
7 And my question to you is: Under the
8 hypothetical illustration I have provided you, is
9 the Schedule C a required document to get a PPP
10 loan?
11 A It is a document that could help a borrower
12 get a PPP loan.
13 Q What document -- I'm going to ask this
14 question again.
15 What document -- in the hypothetical
16 example we're talking about, what document, if any,
17 would serve as a proxy for a Schedule C?
18 A I believe bank records were allowed as
19 well.
20 Q So you're saying to me, based on the work
21 you did at the PPP, that an applicant who was a sole
22 proprietor either needed to submit a Schedule C or
23 bank statements in order to qualify for a PPP?
24 A They needed to submit -- those were
Page 79
1 documents they could submit as part of the
2 application to then allow a lender to look at the
3 loan application.
4 Q Absent either document, was my hypothetical
5 person ineligible?
6 A I believe that the lender wouldn't have
7 reason to then make a loan. The lender would
8 request for documentation. The application by
9 itself was not sufficient.
10 Q Are you aware, from the work you've done at
11 the SBA and the work you've done with the PPP,
12 Womply and others since then, that there were
13 occasions when the lender -- whoever the lender is
14 -- concluded the documentation submitted is
15 insufficient?
16 A I -- yes. Generally speaking, yes.
17 Q Understood.
18 And am I correct that a lender -- am I
19 correct that an applicant that failed to submit
20 documents required by the lender was ineligible for
21 a loan?
22 A I wouldn't make a determination of an
23 eligibility based on not having documents. That is
24 for the lender to decide.
Page 80
1 Q I appreciate that.
2 If the lender made that determination,
3 would that strike you as consistent with PPP, based
4 on your experience as an administrator there?
5 A There was nothing -- an application in and
6 of itself was no guarantee that the lender would
7 submit that loan to SBA for processing.
8 Q I want to talk about the Form 1502.
9 You're familiar with that form?
10 A Yes.
11 Q In fact, both of your reports contain
12 references to that form; correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q So if we can just orient you as we move to
15 this new topic.
16 In paragraph 20 you say that the lenders
17 must file the Form 1502s to obtain a loan processing
18 fee; correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Was there any other reason that a
21 particular lender would need to file a Form 1502?
22 A A Form 1502 was both when a loan was
23 originated, as well as to update monthly on the
24 status of that loan.
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
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Page 89
1 with the borrower and/or the borrower's bank in
2 order to rectify the situation.
3 Q And let me just try to make this a little
4 more concrete. I want you to assume for purposes of
5 my question that I am Prestamos and that you are
6 Bank X where a particular sole proprietor who's
7 applied for a PPP loan has an account.
8 You with me so far?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And I get the application. It gets
11 approved. I file my 1502. I get the money. I send
12 an ACH payment of $10,000 to you, Mr. Briggs, at
13 Bank X.
14 Are you with me so far?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And you, Mr. Briggs, decide, after looking
17 through the records, just by way of example, that
18 this borrower we're talking about doesn't have an
19 account at Bank X. Okay?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q You're with me on this so far?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And so you return the money -- you reject
24 the attempt to deposit that I have made because,
Page 90
1 according to your records, the intended recipient of
2 the loan doesn't have an account with you.
3 Correct?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Okay. And that at least in some instances
6 -- and we don't have to quantify, and we don't have
7 to get into the reasons why -- at least in some
8 instances that occurred in the PPP; correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. And that in the situation I'm
11 describing, the hypothetical situation that I'm
12 describing, that money comes back to me and I
13 cannot -- I cannot pick up the phone or send an
14 email or get together with you in person and say,
15 "Mr. Briggs, this is an SBA-approved loan. This
16 person submitted the application. The application
17 was processed by our LSP, and the Federal Reserve
18 Board gave me the money. What's the problem here?
19 Take the money."
20 In that example, you would agree that I
21 can't force you to take the money; correct?
22 A You, as Prestamos, in this hypothetical
23 example, cannot force a bank to take money.
24 Q I want to go, now, to 46 of Castillo. I
Page 91
1 just want to read 46 and 47 together, just to orient
2 you. Because this is another 1502 issue.
3 It says here, "Prestamos was required to
4 submit 1502 monthly to report updates on the status
5 of PPP loans."
6 That is consistent with your understanding;
7 correct?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q In fact, you've said that in your report.
10 It then says, "During reverification and/or
11 the enhanced due diligence process, Prestamos would
12 keep the loan status as 'Funded' on Form 1502."
13 My first question is: Are you aware that
14 Prestamos had a process that Mr. Castillo refers to
15 "reverification"?
16 A I had not heard that specific term until
17 Mr. Castillo's report.
18 Q Was it your understanding, without regard
19 to the specific term "reverification" -- I'm going
20 to use a very simple term -- that Prestamos had a
21 process to give the borrower, whose loan was
22 rejected by the borrower's bank, a second chance to
23 get that loan?
24 Whether it's "reverification, enhanced due
Page 92
1 diligence," or whatever the technical term is, were
2 you aware, until Castillo's Declaration, that
3 Prestamos had a second chance process?
4 A I was not aware, until Castillo's
5 Declaration, of that specific process.
6 Q Okay.
7 A I was aware, in general, that most PPP
8 lenders had a process to manage their portfolios.
9 Q And did the process that you have just
10 testified to manage their portfolios, did this
11 portfolio management process include an effort to
12 get the loan back on track, to get the loan to the
13 borrower's account after the initial effort to do so
14 had been unsuccessful?
15 A I would hope that most lenders did that.
16 Q Okay. And you now would agree with me,
17 assuming Castillo's Declaration is accurate, that
18 Prestamos did that?
19 A I don't have the details of Prestamos's
20 exact reverification or enhanced due diligence
21 process. If you say to me that it was their effort
22 to then make a second chance to make sure that a
23 borrower got a loan, then I will assume that is
24 true.
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
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1 says, "I don't have -- Tricia doesn't have an
2 account here. I'm going to send the money back."
3 And what you said to me, in this
4 hypothetical, is that I, Ed Rogers, cannot force
5 you, Mr. Briggs, to keep that money that I have sent
6 you as a loan for Tricia.
7 Right? I can't force you to do that;
8 correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q So how can I disburse the loan in this
11 hypothetical? I've sent it to you. You have a
12 rejected it. I then provided Tricia with a second
13 chance, and she either doesn't have a Schedule C or
14 her bank statements aren't sufficient, whatever it
15 is. I tried again.
16 What am I supposed to do?
17 A So, I believe that you would also, from me,
18 the bank -- or Tricia's bank in this hypothetical,
19 would have an ACH code and information on which to
20 look at to resolve the issue.
21 Q So I've got an ACH code and it says --
22 MR. LEDERER: Mr. Briggs, was your answer
23 finished?
24 A And my understanding is that you would,
Page 102
1 then, work with the borrower to resolve the issue.
2 BY MR. ROGERS:
3 Q Okay. I want you to assume that the code
4 used was no account. That I went back to Tricia and
5 I said, "Bank, Mr. Briggs doesn't have an account.
6 Mr. Briggs has no record of you having an account
7 there."
8 And she says, "Well, I have an account
9 there."
10 And I say, "Well, send me some statements
11 or some evidence." She doesn't do that. She can't
12 do that. She doesn't have it. Okay?
13 What am I supposed to do -- I, Prestamos --
14 consistent with the PPP as you, Mr. Briggs,
15 understand it.
16 A I generally think you are supposed to work
17 with the borrower to resolve the issue.
18 Q I've told you I can't resolve the issue
19 because you won't take the money. I tried.
20 Okay?
21 A In that instance, the one thing I would not
22 do is report the loan as fully disbursed.
23 Q Would you, at that point, report the loan
24 as cancelled?
Page 103
1 A Yes. If after a 20-day period there was no
2 resolution as required by PPP regulations.
3 MR. ROGERS: Let me pause for a minute, and
4 we'll go off.
5 MR. LEDERER: When you say "off," off the
6 record?
7 MR. ROGERS: Whatever you want. We can stay on
8 the record for this.
9 MR. LEDERER: Okay.
10 I can take another short break now, or we
11 can complete the deposition without an additional
12 break, and I will just tell you that it will take us
13 45 minutes to do that.
14 So it's up to you, Mr. Briggs. Give or
15 take 45 minutes to complete this.
16 THE WITNESS: I have to go to the bathroom.
17 MR. ROGERS: Let me just ask. You want to take
18 a ten-minute break like we did before?
19 THE WITNESS: That would be great. Thank you.
20 MR. ROGERS: Then what we won't do, Mr. Briggs,
21 is take a lunch break, which would be 30 or 40
22 minutes.
23 THE WITNESS: I understand.
24 MR. ROGERS: And that's okay with you, Larry,
Page 104
1 and Tricia?
2 MR. LEDERER: Absolutely here.
3 THE REPORTER: Sure.
4 MR. ROGERS: We're going to come back in ten
5 minutes and see if we can't finish this.
6 (Recess held.)
7 BY MR. ROGERS:
8 Q Mr. Briggs, I want to go to your rebuttal
9 report at paragraph 16. This is in the middle of
10 your discussion about Mr. Swain. If you need to
11 refer back to earlier paragraphs to answer my
12 question, you'll let me know. I don't think you
13 will, but I don't want you to, you know, think I'm
14 trying to play a trick or anything.
15 A I understand.
16 Q I have a very straightforward question.
17 You say in paragraph 16 that Swain doesn't
18 "analyze or mention in his opening report the
19 allegations that Prestamos obtained advances from
20 the liquidity fund, or what Prestamos did with those
21 funds or the present status of the advances."
22 Correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Okay. Is it your view, consistent with
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
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Page 105
1 your understanding of, you know, the rules of the
2 program, purpose of the program, that Prestamos
3 should have returned the credit advances once the
4 second chance program had been exhausted and to -- a
5 particular borrower and it was clear that they
6 weren't going to get the loan?
7 A I am not clear, again, on the specific
8 guidance and regulations regarding what --
9 concerning the PPPLF, or the Paycheck Protection
10 Lending Facility, administered by the Federal
11 Reserve.
12 My sense, without understanding those
13 guidances, that those reserves probably should have
14 been returned.
15 Q Okay. Are you aware, from the Castillo
16 Declaration, that they were returned?
17 MR. LEDERER: Objection to form.
18 BY MR. ROGERS:
19 Q I can show you the Castillo Declaration, if
20 you would prefer. But I'm just trying to save you a
21 little time here.
22 A I would actually like to see that.
23 Q Sure.
24 A I don't recall that. But I'm not saying
Page 106
1 it's not in the report.
2 Q Okay. We can go to the Castillo
3 Declaration at 51. The one sentence -- it's the
4 last sentence -- it says, "In September 2021,
5 Prestamos returned the credit advances from the
6 Federal Reserve for loans that were ultimately not
7 funded."
8 Do you see that?
9 A Yes, I see that.
10 Q And with the qualification that you are not
11 an expert on the liquidity fund and that you aren't
12 familiar with its rules, would you agree -- I think
13 you said it was your sense that the money should
14 have been returned.
15 Is that your testimony?
16 A Correct.
17 Q So assuming Castillo is being accurate in
18 his Declaration, what Prestamos did with the credit
19 advances is consistent with what your sense is with
20 what they should have done with it, which was return
21 it?
22 A Correct.
23 Q If they had asked you -- if they had hired
24 you as a consultant, based on your experience in the
Page 107
1 program -- not in this lawsuit, but just as a
2 consultant in terms of their business practices --
3 you would have said, "Look, I'm not an expert on the
4 liquidity fund, but if you're asking my advice, my
5 advice is to return it"?
6 A No. My advice would be to talk to an
7 expert who's familiar with the liquidity program.
8 Q Fair enough.
9 But what they did is consistent with your
10 sense of what they should have done?
11 A In plain language, that money that was not
12 used to support a small business for that purpose, I
13 believe should be returned.
14 Q Okay. Now, I want to go to the opening
15 report at paragraph 52. We're now back to the
16 subject of the -- what I think you refer to as the
17 processing fee. Since this is the first time we're
18 talking about the processing fee, let's just get a
19 few basics out of the way.
20 Are you aware that the PPP entitled lenders
21 to a processing fee in connection with the
22 processing of loan applications?
23 A Correct.
24 Q And that at some point -- I think it was
Page 108
1 after you left the SBA, but I'm -- and you'll tell
2 me if you don't know about this -- at some point
3 those fees were sweetened or modified to encourage
4 more loans?
5 A My understanding is that the Economic Aid
6 Act that was passed in December of 2023 increased
7 the fees for certain levels -- certain loan amounts
8 that were, then, implemented in early 2021.
9 Q You said December 2023, but I think you
10 meant December 2020?
11 A Yes. I'm sorry. December 2020.
12 Q Okay. You say in various places that
13 Prestamos shouldn't have asked for a fee for loans
14 that ultimately did not make their way into the
15 borrower's account; right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q They should have waited until the funds hit
18 the borrower's account -- and stayed there
19 permanently, as opposed to hitting them and then
20 being bounced back like a handball against the wall?
21 A One perspective of the way I really look at
22 this is what I would say to the borrower, which is
23 that the lender says they have given you the money.
24 The SBA has paid them a fee. They also received an
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
215-341-3616 transcripts@everestdepo.com
Everest Court Reporting LLC
Page: 30 (105 - 108)
Case 5:21-cv-04337-JMG Document 142-20 Filed 10/04/24 Page 9 of 10
Page 117
1 Do you know Mr. Jordan?
2 A I can't recall. I may have met him.
3 Q And he says -- Castillo says, "Hello,
4 Craig. We are in the process of cancelling
5 disbursed loans and would like to know if you can
6 help us set up a meeting. We want to return the
7 fees to SBA and want to be a hundred percent
8 transparent with our process."
9 Do you see that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q I now want to go up to Mr. Jordan's
12 response -- by the way, this was in September.
13 Castillo asked the question on Tuesday, August 31,
14 2021.
15 Then the next day, September 1, 2021,
16 Jordan says let me find out and I'll get back to
17 you. Then he proceeds in the next email above the
18 one on the screen to respond. And he said, "David,
19 I did get a reply, but we have tried to take it a
20 higher level because I know how hard it would be to
21 cancel them all individually."
22 Are you aware that Prestamos had a
23 distinction with the SBA about the means of
24 cancelling loans? In other words, whether it could
Page 118
1 be done in bulk as opposed to individually. These
2 are cancelled loans we're talking about.
3 A This is the first time I'm seeing this
4 document.
5 Q And the first time you're familiar with
6 this issue with respect to Prestamos?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Okay. And then if you go to the second
9 paragraph, five lines down Jordan says, "PPP
10 processing fees. The lender is able to retain the
11 processing fees on these loans." Okay? These are
12 the cancelled loans.
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q Is that consistent with your understanding
15 and with the guidance that we just looked at with
16 the footnote? Is that consistent with those
17 documents?
18 A Generally speaking, yes.
19 Q Because it would be inconsistent if
20 Prestamos had been found guilty of fraud; correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q I want to now pull up --
23 A I don't believe Mr. Jordan would have the
24 ability to know that.
Page 119
1 Q Understood. Understood. I appreciate
2 that. I appreciate that.
3 And if Prestamos is found guilty of fraud,
4 then we're in a different ball game, but it's now
5 2024 and that hasn't happened, so I don't think we
6 need to worry about that hypothetical at the moment.
7 MR. LEDERER: Is there a question?
8 MR. ROGERS: Yeah, there's about to be a
9 question.
10 BY MR. ROGERS:
11 Q And the question is, relates to -- I want
12 to go back to the ACH return code discussion we were
13 having a couple of minutes ago.
14 Mr. Briggs, do you remember that?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q And you were generally familiar with OIG
17 guidance when you were at SBA; right?
18 A Generally, yes.
19 Q You tried to keep abreast of it?
20 A Oh, yes.
21 Q I'm actually going to show you some OIG
22 guidance from March of 2021. You'd been gone a
23 couple of months. But you'll tell me if that's
24 going to disable you from answering. You haven't
Page 120
1 been shy about that.
2 This is a document entitled Paycheck
3 Protection Program Application Fraud Indicators.
4 Do you see that?
5 A Yes.
6 Q It's a joint document between the OIG and
7 the US Secret Service; correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you were, I'm assuming from your
10 testimony earlier today and your experience, that
11 you were generally aware that the OIG focused, among
12 other issues, on application fraud?
13 A I think based on my time up to January
14 2021, January 20, 2021, the OIG was looking at all
15 aspects of the PPP program.
16 Q And included in that were the risks and
17 potential for application fraud?
18 A One of many subjects, correct.
19 Q So I want to just direct your attention,
20 first, to the section just underneath the line that
21 is entitled Application Fraud Indicators.
22 Do you see that?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And you can just read those to yourself.
Deposition of William Briggs
Alicia Marshall, et al. v. Prestamos CDFI, LLC
215-341-3616 transcripts@everestdepo.com
Everest Court Reporting LLC
Page: 33 (117 - 120)
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