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Home Court filings Bofa Ca Unemployment In re: Bank of America California Unemployment Benefits Litigation — S.D. Cal., No. 21-md-02992 14F — In re Bank of America California Unemployment Benefits Litigation (Dkt. 591-39, S.D. Cal. No. 3:21-md-02992)

Court filing

14F — In re Bank of America California Unemployment Benefits Litigation (Dkt. 591-39, S.D. Cal. No. 3:21-md-02992)

Filed October 17, 2025 in In re Bank of America California Unemployment Benefits Litigation; one of 1415 filings from this case.

Record facts

CourtU.S. District Court for the Southern District of California
Filed2025-10-17

U.S. District Court for the Southern District of California · No. 3:21-md-02992-GPC-MSB · Doc. 591-39 · 2025-10-17 · Docket on CourtListener

Full text

DX 14.F 
REDACTED VERSION OF 
DOCUMENT SOUGHT TO 
BE SEALED PURSUANT TO 
STIPULATED 
PROTECTIVE ORDER 
Case 3:21-md-02992-GPC-MSB     Document 591-39     Filed 10/17/25     PageID.41664 
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               UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
              SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
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                     SAN DIEGO DIVISION
3
 Civil Action No. 21-MD-02992-GPC-MSB
 ____________________________________________________________
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 IN RE:  BANK OF AMERICA CALIFORNIA
5
 UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS LITIGATION
 ____________________________________________________________
6
7
      VIDEO DEPOSITION OF CHLOE NOEL EAST, Ph.D.
8
                      May 15, 2025
 ____________________________________________________________
9
10
 APPEARANCES:
 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
11
           CAROLINE HUNSICKER, ESQ.
           CONNIE K. CHAN, ESQ. (via remote)
12
           Altshuler Berzon LLP
           177 Post Street, Suite 300
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           San Francisco, California  94108
           Phone:  415-421-7151
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           Email:  chunsicker@altshulerberzon.com
           Email:  cchan@altber.com
15
16
           and
           JOSHUA B. SWIGART, ESQ. (via remote)
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           ILANA PLATKIEWICZ, ESQ. (via remote)
           Swigart Law Group, APC
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           2221 Camino Del Rio S, Suite 308
           San Diego, California  92108
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           Phone:  866-219-3343
           Email:  josh@swigartlawgroup.com
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           Email:  ilana@swigartlawgroup.com
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 important UI is for individuals who are receiving it as      09:28AM
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 well as the harms that will be caused as a result of         09:29AM
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 denying some UI benefits and the -- and to provide an        09:29AM
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 estimate of the cost faced by class members as a result      09:29AM
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 of this denial.                                              09:29AM
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           Q.   And just for clarifying the record, by "UI"   09:29AM
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 you mean unemployment insurance.                             09:29AM
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           A.   Yes.  Thank you.                              09:29AM
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           Q.   Much shorter.                                 09:29AM
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                And what you just testified to, that --       09:29AM
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 that was the assignment you were given in connection with    09:29AM
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 this case; is that accurate?                                 09:29AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:29AM
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           Q.   Okay.  Let's mark as Exhibit 2 your expert    09:29AM
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 report.  Have you seen this document before?                 09:29AM
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                (Exhibit Number 2 was marked.)                09:30AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:30AM
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           Q.   Does this accurately reflect your opinions    09:30AM
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 in this case?                                                09:30AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:30AM
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           Q.   Since -- what is the date of that report?     09:30AM
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           A.   The date is March 4, 2025.                    09:30AM
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           Q.   As you sit here today, do you have anything   09:30AM
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 you would like to change or amend from your report?          09:30AM
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           A.   No.                                           09:30AM
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           Q.   Do you intend to offer any additional         09:30AM
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 opinions beyond what's contained in your report?             09:30AM
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           A.   Not as I sit here today, no.                  09:30AM
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           Q.   So as you sit here today, the report,         09:30AM
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 Exhibit 2, in front of you, accurately reflects your         09:30AM
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 opinions that you intend to offer as of today in this        09:30AM
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 case?                                                        09:30AM
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           A.   Yes.  Although I did review the two           09:30AM
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 rebuttal reports by the Bank of America experts and have     09:31AM
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 some thoughts based on those reports that may come up        09:31AM
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 today as well.                                               09:31AM
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           Q.   Well, just for purposes of the record,        09:31AM
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 let's put in the designations first and then I will          09:31AM
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 clarify which reports you reviewed just so we can get that   09:31AM
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 clear.                                                       09:31AM
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           A.   Uh-hmm.                                       09:31AM
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           Q.   So let's do Plaintiffs' Supplemental Expert   09:31AM
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 Designation as Exhibit 3.  Have you seen this document       09:31AM
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 before?                                                      09:31AM
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                (Exhibit Number 3 was marked.)                09:31AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:31AM
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           Q.   Does this accurately reflect your retention   09:31AM
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 by Plaintiffs?                                               09:31AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:32AM
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           Q.   Okay.  What's the date of this designation?   09:32AM
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           Q.   Now, is this one of the rebuttal reports      09:35AM
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 you were referring to that you said you have reviewed and    09:35AM
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 have certain opinions on?                                    09:35AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:35AM
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           Q.   Okay.  And then let's mark as Exhibit 7 the   09:35AM
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 McCrary report.                                              09:36AM
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                Okay.  So I would like to mark as             09:36AM
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 Exhibit 7 the April 4, 2025, report by Justin McCrary.       09:36AM
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                Have you seen this document before?           09:36AM
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                (Exhibit Number 7 was marked.)                09:36AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:36AM
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           Q.   Is this the second rebuttal report you were   09:36AM
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 referring to when you said you had reviewed two rebuttal     09:36AM
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 reports by Bank of America?                                  09:36AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:36AM
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           Q.   Okay.  So why don't we turn back to the --    09:36AM
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 I don't know the number -- Stango 2024 report, which is      09:36AM
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 Exhibit 5.                                                   09:36AM
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                So to the extent you have any opinions on     09:36AM
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 this report, which is dated October 2024, are those          09:36AM
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 opinions contained in your expert report that is marked as   09:37AM
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 Exhibit 2?                                                   09:37AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:37AM
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           Q.   Do you have any additional opinions on the    09:37AM
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 report, which is marked as Exhibit 5, besides those that     09:37AM
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 are contained in Exhibit 2?                                  09:37AM
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           A.   No, not today.                                09:37AM
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           Q.   Okay.  And so turning to Exhibit 6, which     09:37AM
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 is the Stango report dated April 2025, and you testified     09:37AM
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 you have seen this document before; correct?                 09:37AM
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           A.   Correct.                                      09:37AM
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           Q.   So what, if any, are your opinions on this    09:37AM
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 report --                                                    09:37AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            09:37AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  -- that is marked as           09:37AM
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 Exhibit 6?                                                   09:37AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Sorry.  Objection.  Vague.    09:37AM
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           A.   Can you provide some more information         09:38AM
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 about what you mean, please?                                 09:38AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Do you agree with his          09:38AM
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 opinions in Exhibit 6?                                       09:38AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            09:38AM
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           A.   Some of the points made in this report I      09:38AM
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 do not agree with.                                           09:38AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And which points are those?    09:38AM
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           A.   I do not have the list off the top of my      09:38AM
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 head.  I can go through and discuss, but I don't have a      09:38AM
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 list off the top of my head.                                 09:38AM
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           Q.   And just to clarify again for purposes of     09:39AM
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 the record, your -- any additional thoughts you have on      09:39AM
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 either Exhibit 6 or Exhibit 7 are not contained in           09:39AM
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 Exhibit 2 because those post date the date of your report;   09:39AM
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 is that accurate?                                            09:39AM
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           A.   Correct.                                      09:39AM
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           Q.   Okay.  So just for purposes of refreshing     09:39AM
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 your recollection, why don't we take a look at the Table     09:39AM
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 of Contents.  We will just look at the Table of Contents     09:39AM
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 for Exhibit 6.  If you can read the Table of Contents at     09:39AM
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 Pages 1 and 2.                                               09:40AM
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                Okay.  So first, as you sit here today, do    09:42AM
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 you intend to offer a supplemental report?                   09:42AM
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           A.   No.                                           09:42AM
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           Q.   Okay.  Are you in the process of preparing    09:42AM
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 any further reports?                                         09:42AM
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           A.   No.                                           09:42AM
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           Q.   However you did testify you have additional   09:42AM
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 thoughts and disagree with certain opinions in Exhibit 6;    09:42AM
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 is that accurate?                                            09:42AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:42AM
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           Q.   Okay.  So just to understand which opinions   09:42AM
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 you disagree with, which I understand you're not in the      09:42AM
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 process of preparing a report to set forth, after you have   09:42AM
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 reviewed Pages 1 and 2 of Exhibit 6, have you identified     09:42AM
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 any opinions contained therein which you disagree with?      09:42AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Confusing.        09:42AM
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           A.   So after reviewing Pages 1 and 2, the idea    09:42AM
2
 that the interest rate calculations cannot be applied        09:43AM
3
 classwide is something that I disagree with, and the idea    09:43AM
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 that there needs to be a distinction made between certain    09:43AM
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 types of class members is also something that I disagree     09:43AM
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 with.                                                        09:43AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And why do you believe that    09:43AM
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 the interest rate calculations can be applied classwide?     09:43AM
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           A.   I believe the interest rate calculations      09:43AM
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 can be applied classwide because that's very consistent      09:43AM
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 with how economists think about calculating the impact of    09:43AM
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 a policy change or a business decision on a population.      09:44AM
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 If the vast majority of a population is impacted in a        09:44AM
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 given way, then it's standard practice to apply that most    09:44AM
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 common experience to the entire population.                  09:44AM
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           Q.   And then as to the second idea that you       09:44AM
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 stated you disagree with, why do you disagree with the       09:44AM
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 idea that there needs to be a distinction made between       09:44AM
19
 certain types of class members?                              09:44AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates         09:44AM
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 testimony.                                                   09:44AM
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           A.   So I do not think it's necessary to           09:44AM
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 distinguish between different types of class members in      09:44AM
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 order to get a reliable estimate of the harm caused on       09:44AM
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 class members.  Again because this is very standard          09:45AM
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 practice, that if there's a common experience that most      09:45AM
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 people in the group have, that we, as economists, would      09:45AM
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 be comfortable and think that is accurate to apply that      09:45AM
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 most common experience to everybody in the group.            09:45AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And are those opinions,        09:45AM
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 although they are dated from March 2024, generally           09:45AM
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 reflected in Exhibit 2?                                      09:45AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            09:45AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:45AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Based on your previous         09:45AM
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 review of Exhibit 6, is there anything you would change in   09:45AM
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 your Exhibit 2?                                              09:45AM
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           A.   No.                                           09:45AM
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           Q.   And when I say "previous review," I mean      09:46AM
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 not of the Table of Contents, Pages 1 and 2.  But to the     09:46AM
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 extent you had previously testified that you had reviewed    09:46AM
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 Exhibit 6, after you have reviewed Exhibit 6, does that      09:46AM
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 change your opinions in Exhibit 2?                           09:46AM
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           A.   Thanks for clarifying.                        09:46AM
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                No, it does not.                              09:46AM
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           Q.   Okay.  So turning to Exhibit 7, which is      09:46AM
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 the McCrary report April 2025.  And you have seen this       09:46AM
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 document before; correct?                                    09:46AM
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           A.   Correct.                                      09:46AM
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           Q.   Have you discussed this document with         09:46AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:53AM
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           Q.   Okay.  I think we have -- and also in         09:53AM
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 connection with Exhibit 7, you're not in the process of      09:53AM
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 preparing a supplemental report in connection with the       09:53AM
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 opinions listed by Mr. McCrary in Exhibit 7; is that         09:53AM
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 accurate?                                                    09:53AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:53AM
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           Q.   Okay.  And do you -- you do not, as you sit   09:53AM
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 here today, intend to offer a supplemental or additional     09:53AM
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 report to address any opinion -- opinions that are           09:53AM
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 contained in Exhibit 7; is that accurate?                    09:53AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:53AM
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           Q.   Okay.   And what is your hourly rate in       09:53AM
14
 this matter?                                                 09:54AM
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           A.   $400.                                         09:54AM
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           Q.   And approximately how many hours have you     09:54AM
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 worked on this case?                                         09:54AM
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           A.   I'm guessing about a hundred.                 09:54AM
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           Q.   And have you invoiced all of those hours?     09:54AM
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           A.   Not yet.                                      09:54AM
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           Q.   Okay.  Did you review any materials in        09:54AM
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 preparation for your deposition today?                       09:54AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          09:54AM
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           Q.   What materials did you review?                09:54AM
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           A.   I reviewed my report, the Exhibit 5, 6 and    09:54AM
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           Q.   Are you aware of any errors in your report    10:02AM
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 or opinions that you would like to amend?                    10:02AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            10:02AM
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           A.   No, I am not aware of any.                    10:02AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Since the issuance of your     10:02AM
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 report, have you changed any of your opinions?               10:02AM
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           A.   No.                                           10:02AM
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           Q.   And then you previously testified that the    10:02AM
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 only additional documents you have reviewed since your       10:02AM
10
 report are the additional expert reports; is that            10:02AM
11
 accurate?                                                    10:03AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates         10:03AM
13
 testimony.                                                   10:03AM
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           A.   I reviewed the expert reports as well as      10:03AM
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 some of the literature that is cited in those expert         10:03AM
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 reports and the work papers that were provided to            10:03AM
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 supplement the report by Justin McCrary.                     10:03AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  Now turning to the      10:03AM
19
 data listed under Appendix B, how did you decide what data   10:03AM
20
 to review in connection with this -- your representation     10:03AM
21
 of Plaintiffs in this action?                                10:03AM
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           A.   Well, I've been studying unemployment         10:03AM
23
 insurance since 2012, so I'm very familiar with what are     10:03AM
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 the most commonly used and most useful datasets that         10:03AM
25
 capture unemployment insurance received and also             10:04AM
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 household finance -- financial information.  So I used       10:04AM
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 that background knowledge to make the decision.              10:04AM
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           Q.   And you decided on the three items that are   10:04AM
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 listed under data in your Appendix B; is that accurate?      10:04AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          10:04AM
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           Q.   Was there any data that you decided not to    10:04AM
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 use?                                                         10:04AM
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           A.   No.                                           10:04AM
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           Q.   Were there any opinions that you were asked   10:04AM
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 to provide that are not reflected in your report?            10:04AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Beyond the        10:04AM
12
 scope.                                                       10:04AM
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           A.   No.                                           10:04AM
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                MS. BRYS:  Why don't we take a break here     10:04AM
15
 before we go into particular reports.                        10:04AM
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                THE DEPONENT:  Sounds good.                   10:05AM
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                THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  All right.  Off record     10:05AM
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 10:05 AM.                                                    10:05AM
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                (Recess from 10:05 AM to 10:17 AM)            10:17AM
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                THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on record at    10:17AM
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 10:17 AM.                                                    10:17AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  Why don't we turn to    10:17AM
23
 Exhibit 2.                                                   10:17AM
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           A.   Okay.                                         10:18AM
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           Q.   And again just to clarify for the record,     10:18AM
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6
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  So you have an          10:44AM
7
 understanding that some individuals may have received        10:44AM
8
 paper checks from the state or from an agency to access      10:44AM
9
 their unemployment insurance benefits.                       10:44AM
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           A.   Yes.                                          10:44AM
11
           Q.   And for the credit -- claim denial and        10:44AM
12
 credit rescission class, they were still receiving their     10:44AM
13
 UI benefits at that time to the extent they were not         10:44AM
14
 members of the account freeze class or did not otherwise     10:44AM
15
 receive their benefits via check or another means; is that   10:44AM
16
 accurate?                                                    10:44AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Compound.         10:44AM
18
           A.   That is my understanding, yes.                10:44AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  Do you have -- what     10:44AM
20
 is your understanding of how the harm is calculated as to    10:44AM
21
 the credit denial class to the extent you have any?          10:45AM
22
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection --                  10:45AM
23
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Or claim denial class.  I      10:45AM
24
 keep saying that.                                            10:45AM
25
           A.   Can -- can you clarify what you mean by       10:45AM
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 "harm"?                                                      10:45AM
2
           Q.   What is your understanding of what -- to      10:45AM
3
 the extent you have one, of what the damages are to the      10:45AM
4
 claim denial class?                                          10:45AM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection to the extent       10:45AM
6
 that's beyond the scope of the report.                       10:45AM
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           A.   So my understanding is that the               10:45AM
8
 consequential damages are going to be calculated             10:45AM
9
 potentially using an interest rate and that my assignment    10:45AM
10
 was to think about an accurate estimate of that interest     10:45AM
11
 rate.                                                        10:46AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  And what is your        10:46AM
13
 understanding of the interest rate?                          10:46AM
14
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            10:46AM
15
           A.   Can you clarify what you mean by              10:46AM
16
 "understanding of"?                                          10:46AM
17
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  You testified that your        10:46AM
18
 assignment was to think about an accurate estimate of the    10:46AM
19
 interest rate for consequential damages to the classes.      10:46AM
20
                What in your opinion is the proper            10:46AM
21
 interest rate that should be used?                           10:46AM
22
           A.   In my opinion, the interest rate of           10:46AM
23
 20.8 percent is an accurate and conservative estimate of     10:46AM
24
 the cost faced by class members.                             10:46AM
25
           Q.   And how do you come up with 20.8 percent?     10:46AM
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           A.   For this, I'll refer us to a paragraph in     10:46AM
2
 my report.  Let me find the number here.                     10:47AM
3
                So for this it's in Paragraph 36.             10:47AM
4
           Q.   And so does Paragraph 36 then accurately      10:47AM
5
 refer to the basis by which you came up with 20.8 percent?   10:47AM
6
           A.   Yes, it does.  Although this is sort of       10:47AM
7
 building on earlier paragraphs that are explaining why a     10:47AM
8
 credit card interest rate is an appropriate interest rate    10:47AM
9
 since you could take an interest rate not from a credit      10:48AM
10
 card as well.                                                10:48AM
11
           Q.   And then why, in your opinion, is it          10:48AM
12
 appropriate to take an interest rate from a credit card?     10:48AM
13
           A.   Because after my review of the literature     10:48AM
14
 and of the data, the most common experiences of UI           10:48AM
15
 recipients that have their UI benefits or part of their      10:48AM
16
 UI benefits denied to them is going to be to borrow          10:48AM
17
 either on either a credit card or something more             10:48AM
18
 expensive than a credit card or to cut their spending or     10:48AM
19
 some combination of the two.                                 10:48AM
20
           Q.   And in coming up with the amount of -- or     10:48AM
21
 the -- strike that -- of the -- in coming up with the        10:48AM
22
 20.8 percent interest rate, did that include any             10:48AM
23
 consideration for the amount that would be borrowed?         10:49AM
24
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            10:49AM
25
           A.   No.  It's my understanding that that will     10:49AM
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1
 be factored into the method for consequential damages but    10:49AM
2
 that's not factored into the 20.8 percent.                   10:49AM
3
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  So to be accurate,      10:49AM
4
 you didn't consider whether or not somebody was borrowing,   10:49AM
5
 for purposes of your assignment, $5 or $2,000.               10:49AM
6
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates         10:49AM
7
 testimony.                                                   10:49AM
8
           A.   My assignment was to focus on an interest     10:49AM
9
 rate that is representative of the costs of being denied     10:49AM
10
 access to UI benefits.                                       10:49AM
11
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  And would it be         10:49AM
12
 accurate to say that is irrespective of the UI benefits to   10:49AM
13
 which they would not have access to?                         10:50AM
14
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates         10:50AM
15
 testimony.                                                   10:50AM
16
           A.   I considered the amounts of UI benefits       10:50AM
17
 that individuals were denied in thinking about the --        10:50AM
18
 in -- in understanding sort of the general outlines of       10:50AM
19
 the situation here, but I did not consider that amount in    10:50AM
20
 the 20.8 percent because the amount is not the thing         10:50AM
21
 that's important.  The thing that's important is the cost    10:50AM
22
 of being denied benefits which is reflected in the 20.8.     10:50AM
23
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And is the 20.8 percent        10:50AM
24
 reflective of the proper interest rate regardless of the     10:51AM
25
 class?                                                       10:51AM
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           A.   To clarify you mean the three classes we      10:51AM
2
 were talking about before?                                   10:51AM
3
           Q.   Correct.                                      10:51AM
4
           A.   Yes, I agree.                                 10:51AM
5
           Q.   Okay.  Are there any other opinions that we   10:51AM
6
 haven't particularly discussed today in general overview     10:51AM
7
 that are important in your report or by way of your          10:51AM
8
 assignment that you intend to offer in connection with       10:51AM
9
 this case?                                                   10:51AM
10
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            10:52AM
11
           A.   I would just come back to the three main      10:52AM
12
 opinions in my report.  So the first is that UI benefits     10:52AM
13
 provide this crucial safety net for individuals who are      10:52AM
14
 experiencing a job loss because they're a highly             10:52AM
15
 vulnerable and financially precarious group.  And as a       10:52AM
16
 result of that, the typical UI recipient does not have       10:52AM
17
 enough savings to cover the loss of UI benefits even         10:52AM
18
 partially or temporarily.                                    10:52AM
19
                And then finally, that the credit card        10:52AM
20
 interest rate is a good estimate and, if anything, an        10:52AM
21
 underestimate of the cost faced by recipients who lost       10:53AM
22
 access to their benefits.                                    10:53AM
23
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  And so you previously   10:53AM
24
 testified that you reviewed certain articles in connection   10:53AM
25
 with both your report and in preparation for your            10:53AM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Did you do a survey of any     12:22PM
2
 class members in connection with this case?                  12:22PM
3
           A.   Thanks for clarifying.                        12:22PM
4
                No, I didn't.                                 12:22PM
5
           Q.   So would it be accurate to say you used       12:22PM
6
 existing datasets instead of conducting surveys personally   12:22PM
7
 as to an understanding of -- that forms the basis of the     12:22PM
8
 opinions in your report?                                     12:22PM
9
           A.   Yes.  I used the method that I use in all     12:22PM
10
 of my research, which is taking advantage of large           12:22PM
11
 representative datasets that are preexisting to              12:22PM
12
 characterize a population.                                   12:22PM
13
           Q.   Okay.  So generally speaking in your          12:22PM
14
 research, you don't interview individuals who may be         12:22PM
15
 impacted in connection with your opinions.                   12:23PM
16
           A.   Generally that's correct, yeah.               12:23PM
17
           Q.   Are there ever situations where you do        12:23PM
18
 interview individuals or individual situations?              12:23PM
19
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Overbroad.        12:23PM
20
           A.   Do you mean in -- in a research project?      12:23PM
21
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Correct.                       12:23PM
22
                Because you -- you testified that in your     12:23PM
23
 research, you usually take advantage of large                12:23PM
24
 representative datasets and you further testified that,      12:23PM
25
 generally speaking, that's the method you use.               12:23PM
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 What do you mean by suddenly lose access to UI benefits?     12:32PM
2
           A.   What I mean here is if individuals don't      12:32PM
3
 have access to their full amount of UI benefits that         12:32PM
4
 they're entitled to and that that happens suddenly or        12:32PM
5
 quickly.                                                     12:32PM
6
           Q.   Okay.  Would it be -- are you referring to    12:32PM
7
 a permanent or a temporary loss?                             12:32PM
8
           A.   I'm not being specific in that sentence       12:32PM
9
 because it actually doesn't matter if it's a permanent or    12:32PM
10
 a temporary loss.  Individuals are not going to be able      12:32PM
11
 to cover their expenses regardless if it's permanent or      12:32PM
12
 temporary.                                                   12:32PM
13
           Q.   And in connection with your opinions in       12:32PM
14
 this case, have you identified which of the class members    12:33PM
15
 suddenly lost access to UI benefits?                         12:33PM
16
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Confusing.        12:33PM
17
           A.   I'm not sure I understand what -- what        12:33PM
18
 you're asking.                                               12:33PM
19
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Is your opinions in            12:33PM
20
 Paragraph 20, which I understand is about the vast           12:33PM
21
 majority of UI recipients in California, have you            12:33PM
22
 identified of those in the class which ones in particular    12:33PM
23
 are impacted or would your opinion in Paragraph 20 relate    12:33PM
24
 to?                                                          12:33PM
25
           A.   Well, what I'm focused on here is             12:33PM
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 characterizing what is the most common experience among      12:33PM
2
 UI recipients in California using this data that is          12:34PM
3
 representative, and I'm doing that rather than analyzing     12:34PM
4
 individual class member data.  Because again, this is        12:34PM
5
 sort of the common approach that economists will take        12:34PM
6
 when they're trying to look at the effect of a policy        12:34PM
7
 change or a business decision on individuals.                12:34PM
8
           Q.   Okay.  If we could take a quick look at       12:34PM
9
 Paragraph 23 of your report.                                 12:34PM
10
                How many households were you looking at in    12:34PM
11
 particular in Paragraph 23 of your report?                   12:34PM
12
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            12:35PM
13
           A.   In which part of this paragraph are you       12:35PM
14
 referring to?                                                12:35PM
15
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Of course I have the wrong     12:35PM
16
 paragraph.                                                   12:35PM
17
                I think by way of -- I calculated that        12:35PM
18
 even after receiving stimulus payments, most UI              12:35PM
19
 recipients.                                                  12:35PM
20
                Is there any particular sample size you       12:35PM
21
 looked at in making your opinions in Paragraph 23?           12:35PM
22
           A.   Well, just -- just a point of                 12:35PM
23
 clarification.  When -- when -- when I say sample size, I    12:35PM
24
 generally think of the number of households but when         12:35PM
25
 I'm --                                                       12:35PM
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           Q.   Did you take any steps to ensure that the     01:34PM
2
 population of UI recipients in California accurately         01:34PM
3
 reflected the circumstances of proposed class members?       01:34PM
4
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            01:34PM
5
           A.   What do you mean by "accurately               01:34PM
6
 reflected"?                                                  01:34PM
7
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  You testified earlier that     01:34PM
8
 there are certain classes that are being proposed as you     01:34PM
9
 understand in this litigation regarding unemployed -- UI     01:34PM
10
 benefit recipients in the state of California.               01:34PM
11
                So did you take any steps to ensure that      01:34PM
12
 your use of the national sample accurately reflected the     01:34PM
13
 proposed class members in this litigation?                   01:34PM
14
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Same objection.               01:35PM
15
           A.   In this analysis -- well, in the -- in the    01:35PM
16
 main analysis, I'm using the SIPP data that allows me to     01:35PM
17
 look at California UI recipients and that sample should      01:35PM
18
 be representative of the class members who are California    01:35PM
19
 UI recipients during the same time period.                   01:35PM
20
                And then to extend to the SHED data and       01:35PM
21
 make sure that it's reasonable to extend to the SHED         01:35PM
22
 data, I make that comparison between California UI           01:35PM
23
 recipients and the nationwide sample of UI recipients.       01:35PM
24
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And to the extent you can      01:35PM
25
 recall, what is the size of the sample of the SHED data      01:35PM
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 get a sense about the financial situation of households      01:40PM
2
 who are likely eligible for the SNAP program or what's       01:40PM
3
 called food stamps.                                          01:40PM
4
           Q.   Okay.  And so would that be in connection     01:40PM
5
 with any publications you have in connection with the SNAP   01:40PM
6
 program?                                                     01:40PM
7
           A.   Yes.                                          01:40PM
8
           Q.   And what publications would those be          01:40PM
9
 specifically?                                                01:41PM
10
           A.   That is a report I put out through the        01:41PM
11
 Hamilton project, which is a think tank within the           01:41PM
12
 Brookings think tank.  I do not remember when that came      01:41PM
13
 out but sometime last calendar year.                         01:41PM
14
           Q.   Okay.  And in Paragraph 21, I understand      01:41PM
15
 that based on the SHED data, you conclude that UI            01:41PM
16
 recipients will have to turn to borrowing or cutting back    01:41PM
17
 on necessities or a combination of the two when UI           01:41PM
18
 recipients are cut off from their benefits; is that          01:41PM
19
 correct?                                                     01:41PM
20
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates the     01:41PM
21
 report.                                                      01:41PM
22
           A.   Can you repeat the question?                  01:41PM
23
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  So in Paragraph 21,     01:41PM
24
 it is my understanding in the last sentence that you         01:41PM
25
 conclude that UI benefit recipients will have to turn to     01:42PM
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 borrowing or cutting back on necessities or a combination    01:42PM
2
 of the two when UI recipients are cut off from their         01:42PM
3
 benefits; is that accurate?                                  01:42PM
4
           A.   So the way that I would frame what I'm        01:42PM
5
 saying in this sentence is that because recipients are       01:42PM
6
 going to have a hard time covering the loss of UI            01:42PM
7
 benefits using their own savings, they're going to turn      01:42PM
8
 to other measures.                                           01:42PM
9
                But I just want to be clear I'm not saying    01:42PM
10
 every single person will do this.  I'm just saying that      01:42PM
11
 this is the most common response among UI recipients;        01:42PM
12
 that they're going to turn to some other way to finance      01:42PM
13
 their spending, like borrowing or cutting back on            01:42PM
14
 necessities or some combination.                             01:42PM
15
           Q.   Okay.  So it's not all UI benefits            01:43PM
16
 recipients.  It is the most common response; is that         01:43PM
17
 accurate?                                                    01:43PM
18
           A.   Yes.                                          01:43PM
19
           Q.   And what do you mean by cut off from their    01:43PM
20
 benefits?                                                    01:43PM
21
           A.   I mean when they are denied access to         01:43PM
22
 their UI benefits or some of their UI benefits by the        01:43PM
23
 bank.                                                        01:43PM
24
           Q.   So even if it is a loss of $5 for a week,     01:43PM
25
 your conclusion would still apply?                           01:43PM
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           A.   Well, my understanding is that the median     01:43PM
2
 amount that individuals lost access to was around $900       01:43PM
3
 and the median length was almost three months, so that       01:43PM
4
 would not be the typical experience of somebody in the       01:43PM
5
 class.                                                       01:43PM
6
           Q.   And so if you're referring to the median      01:43PM
7
 length, you're not talking about a permanent loss to UI      01:44PM
8
 benefits.  You're talking about a temporary period of        01:44PM
9
 time; is that accurate?                                      01:44PM
10
           A.   Yes.                                          01:44PM
11
           Q.   And that is just to a portion of their        01:44PM
12
 benefits; is that accurate?                                  01:44PM
13
           A.   Yes.                                          01:44PM
14
           Q.   And your opinion is based on, again, the      01:44PM
15
 median data.  So you are not offering an opinion as to       01:44PM
16
 every UI recipient regardless of the amount that was --      01:44PM
17
 lost access to or the period of time.  It is based on the    01:44PM
18
 median.                                                      01:44PM
19
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates         01:44PM
20
 report.                                                      01:44PM
21
           A.   So my opinion is characterizing what is       01:44PM
22
 the most common response to the loss of UI benefits and      01:44PM
23
 this will be the case for the vast majority of people who    01:44PM
24
 lost their UI benefits.                                      01:45PM
25
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Or access to part of it?       01:45PM
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 remembering that, I can't say that for sure.                 01:46PM
2
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  So similarly based on the      01:46PM
3
 SHED data, you conclude that 22 percent of UI recipients     01:46PM
4
 in 2020 to 2021 reported having unpaid medical debt; is      01:46PM
5
 that correct?                                                01:46PM
6
           A.   Yes.                                          01:46PM
7
           Q.   But it's possible that 78 percent did not     01:46PM
8
 have unpaid medical debt.                                    01:46PM
9
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Calls for         01:47PM
10
 speculation.                                                 01:47PM
11
           A.   While people are receiving UI or have         01:47PM
12
 recently received UI before they are denied, yes, that is    01:47PM
13
 possible.                                                    01:47PM
14
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  And so in -- I          01:47PM
15
 believe it's in Paragraph 30, but you ultimately conclude    01:47PM
16
 that credit card borrowing is the most common source of      01:47PM
17
 borrowing for people who receive UI; is that correct?        01:47PM
18
           A.   Yes.                                          01:47PM
19
           Q.   Okay.  I didn't know if you were reading.     01:47PM
20
           A.   Oh, sorry.                                    01:47PM
21
           Q.   You like to read.  I don't want to rush       01:47PM
22
 you.                                                         01:47PM
23
           A.   I appreciate that.                            01:47PM
24
           Q.   Okay.  So to -- to come up with this          01:47PM
25
 determination, I understand that you looked at two survey    01:48PM
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 responses in particular.                                     01:48PM
2
                Would it be accurate to say that you          01:48PM
3
 looked at survey responses that said put it on my card       01:48PM
4
 and paid it off in full at the next statement and put it     01:48PM
5
 on my credit card and pay it off over time.                  01:48PM
6
           A.   Yes.                                          01:48PM
7
           Q.   And so part of your claim that credit card    01:48PM
8
 borrowing is the most common source of borrowing, is based   01:48PM
9
 on individuals who indicated that they would put it on       01:48PM
10
 their card and put it -- and pay it off in full at the       01:48PM
11
 next statement.                                              01:48PM
12
           A.   Part of it is based on that, yes.             01:48PM
13
           Q.   Did you consider those who use credit card    01:48PM
14
 borrowing but pay no interest because they do not carry a    01:48PM
15
 balance between credit card statements?                      01:48PM
16
           A.   Yes, I considered that.                       01:48PM
17
           Q.   And how is that reflected in your report?     01:48PM
18
           A.   That's reflected in the report in this        01:48PM
19
 question about what is the most common source of             01:49PM
20
 borrowing among people who receive UI.                       01:49PM
21
                I included in this consideration              01:49PM
22
 individuals who responded that they would put the $400       01:49PM
23
 expense on their credit card and pay it off in full at       01:49PM
24
 the next statement.                                          01:49PM
25
           Q.   So for the individuals who put it on their    01:49PM
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 credit card and pay it off in full, wouldn't they not be     01:49PM
2
 accruing credit card interest because they paid off the      01:49PM
3
 balance in full on the next statement?                       01:49PM
4
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            01:49PM
5
           A.   I don't think we can say that for sure        01:49PM
6
 based on the data -- or that I can say that for sure         01:49PM
7
 based on the data that I've reviewed because the question    01:49PM
8
 is asking about the $400 expense and it's not clear if       01:50PM
9
 individuals already have debt that they're carrying on       01:50PM
10
 their credit card before the $400 expense is occurring.      01:50PM
11
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  However, if the individual     01:50PM
12
 marked that they would pay it off in full at the next        01:50PM
13
 statement, what interest would they be accruing on that      01:50PM
14
 $400 debt if they paid it off in full at the next            01:50PM
15
 statement?                                                   01:50PM
16
           A.   In terms of credit card interest, they        01:50PM
17
 would not be accruing any.                                   01:50PM
18
           Q.   So would it be overestimating the cost of     01:50PM
19
 borrowing for that class member?                             01:50PM
20
           A.   What I would say is that while they're not    01:50PM
21
 accruing credit card interest on that $400, it doesn't       01:50PM
22
 mean that there's no cost associated with putting the        01:50PM
23
 $400 on a credit card because the money still has to come    01:50PM
24
 from somewhere, either spending that they were planning      01:51PM
25
 to do otherwise or their savings.  So it may not be          01:51PM
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1
 reflected exactly in the credit card interest rate but       01:51PM
2
 there's still a cost associated with that.                   01:51PM
3
           Q.   And have you done studies on the              01:51PM
4
 variability of credit card interest rates?                   01:51PM
5
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            01:51PM
6
           A.   What type of studies do you mean?             01:51PM
7
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  How would you determine what   01:51PM
8
 the appropriate credit card interest rate should be for      01:51PM
9
 the individuals about which you opine in your report?        01:51PM
10
           A.   For that analysis, I used estimates of the    01:51PM
11
 credit card interest rate that were existing in the          01:51PM
12
 literature and I talk about that in Paragraph 36.            01:51PM
13
           Q.   And so to the extent you're referencing the   01:52PM
14
 literature, are you referencing the particular articles      01:52PM
15
 listed in Footnotes 45 and 46?                               01:52PM
16
           A.   Yes.                                          01:52PM
17
           Q.   And for purposes of understanding the         01:52PM
18
 credit score, do those datasets or sources limit it to       01:52PM
19
 California unemployment insurance benefit recipients?        01:52PM
20
           A.   No, those sources don't.                      01:52PM
21
                However the data that I'm bringing to         01:52PM
22
 those sources do take account of that.  So earlier in        01:52PM
23
 that same paragraph, I calculated using the SHED data        01:52PM
24
 that the median UI recipient in 2020 and 2021 had a good     01:52PM
25
 credit score, and then I used these sources to estimate      01:53PM
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1
 regardless of whether people who would use savings are       01:56PM
2
 included in the sample.                                      01:56PM
3
           Q.   So in the statistical code, why did you       01:56PM
4
 exclude individuals who would have used savings?             01:56PM
5
           A.   Primarily because the focus was to figure     01:57PM
6
 out what the most common sources of borrowing are among      01:57PM
7
 the sample.  And therefore, that group was not important     01:57PM
8
 to answering that question.                                  01:57PM
9
           Q.   So did you consider individuals who marked    01:57PM
10
 using money from a bank loan or line of credit?              01:57PM
11
           A.   Yes.                                          01:57PM
12
           Q.   Okay.  So you did not exclude those from      01:57PM
13
 your statistical code like you excluded the ones who         01:57PM
14
 currently have money in checking, savings or cash?           01:57PM
15
           A.   Correct.                                      01:57PM
16
           Q.   Did you consider individuals who had          01:57PM
17
 borrowed from a friend or family member?                     01:57PM
18
           A.   Yes.  I considered them and that was much     01:57PM
19
 less common than credit card borrowing, which is why I       01:57PM
20
 didn't focus on them in the report.                          01:57PM
21
           Q.   Did you consider individuals who marked       01:57PM
22
 they would use a payday loan deposit, advance or             01:57PM
23
 overdraft?                                                   01:58PM
24
           A.   Yes.                                          01:58PM
25
           Q.   And why did you consider that population?     01:58PM
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           A.   Well, for this analysis, I was focused on     01:58PM
2
 getting a sense about what are the borrowing options         01:58PM
3
 available to UI recipients to get a sense about the          01:58PM
4
 borrowing costs, and so I wanted to include different        01:58PM
5
 types of potential borrowing.                                01:58PM
6
           Q.   Did you include individuals who marked by     01:58PM
7
 selling something?                                           01:58PM
8
           A.   Yes.                                          01:58PM
9
           Q.   And why did you include those by selling      01:58PM
10
 something who marked that as their response?                 01:58PM
11
           A.   So for this -- for selling something,         01:58PM
12
 while it isn't a source of borrowing exactly, it is a,       01:58PM
13
 sort of, financial mechanism that people use to deal with    01:58PM
14
 changes in their finances.  So it seemed important to --     01:58PM
15
 to think about that as a potential option as well.           01:58PM
16
           Q.   And so for purposes of understanding your     01:58PM
17
 opinion, you are offering the interest rate of               01:59PM
18
 20.8 percent as a representative interest rate; is that      01:59PM
19
 accurate?                                                    01:59PM
20
           A.   Yes.                                          01:59PM
21
           Q.   And is that 20.8 percent interest rate        01:59PM
22
 applicable to all classes?                                   01:59PM
23
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Confusing.        01:59PM
24
           A.   All classes or all class members or...        01:59PM
25
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  All -- all -- I guess we       01:59PM
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1
 will start with all classes.  So all of the claimed denial   01:59PM
2
 class, the credit rescission class.  Would you say that      01:59PM
3
 the 20.8 percent is applicable to all different proposed     01:59PM
4
 classes as you understand them?                              01:59PM
5
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Confusing.        01:59PM
6
           A.   I would say it's applicable to the claim      01:59PM
7
 denial, the credit rescission and the account freeze         01:59PM
8
 classes that we were discussing earlier.                     01:59PM
9
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And it is your opinion that    01:59PM
10
 the 20.8 percent is representative to all individuals        01:59PM
11
 within each of those classes.                                02:00PM
12
           A.   It is my opinion that we can use              02:00PM
13
 20.8 percent as a representative number of the cost faced    02:00PM
14
 by class members, yes, in all three classes.                 02:00PM
15
           Q.   So to the extent you look at, for instance,   02:00PM
16
 the account freeze class, would your opinion change based    02:00PM
17
 on the balance of the account at the time it was frozen?     02:00PM
18
           A.   No, it would not.                             02:00PM
19
           Q.   What if the balance was negative?  Would      02:00PM
20
 that impact your opinion?                                    02:00PM
21
           A.   No, it would not because I'm focused on       02:00PM
22
 the most common response and the cost of the most common     02:00PM
23
 response.                                                    02:00PM
24
           Q.   So would your opinion change if 12,000 of     02:00PM
25
 the accounts were frozen for less than one week?             02:01PM
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                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Calls for         02:01PM
2
 speculation.                                                 02:01PM
3
           A.   It's hard to say given that I haven't seen    02:01PM
4
 any data that suggests that that's the case.                 02:01PM
           
   
  
   
 
    
 
                                    
           
   
            
           
   
     
 
             
           
   
                                           
           
   
        
 
                                      
                
  
  
         
 
                                                 
           
   
      
 
  
      
 
      
 
               
20
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  So even for a claim of less    02:02PM
21
 than $5, you would still use the credit card borrowing       02:02PM
22
 20.8 percent interest rate.                                  02:02PM
23
           A.   Yes.  Because the 20.8 is representative      02:02PM
24
 of the cost faced by the majority of class members.  And     02:02PM
25
 some will have slightly higher amounts and some will have    02:02PM
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1
 slightly lower amounts but my goal is to provide a           02:02PM
2
 representative number that can be applied to -- to all       02:02PM
3
 class members.                                               02:02PM
           
   
         
 
     
 
        
 
                                               
                
  
  
       
 
                                                       
           
   
                              
11
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Is it your opinion that        02:02PM
12
 those individuals would have taken on credit card debt?      02:02PM
13
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Calls for         02:02PM
14
 speculation.                                                 02:02PM
15
           A.   Again, my method is not trying to identify    02:02PM
16
 which individuals would turn to credit card borrowing but    02:03PM
17
 rather that most individuals returned to credit card         02:03PM
18
 borrowing or some method that's more expensive than          02:03PM
19
 credit card borrowing.                                       02:03PM
20
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  But most is not all;           02:03PM
21
 correct?                                                     02:03PM
22
           A.   Correct.                                      02:03PM
23
           Q.   I can turn to more data.                      02:03PM
24
                So I understand you previously referenced     02:03PM
25
 the Pulse data?                                              02:03PM
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1
 loss of benefits to $5 or if it is a permanent loss          02:11PM
2
 because UI benefits have ended, they've expired, your        02:11PM
3
 opinions are the same?                                       02:11PM
4
           A.   Yes, my opinions are the same.  Because       02:11PM
5
 part of the value of UI benefits is that they're paid in     02:11PM
6
 a timely manner because individuals need the benefits in     02:11PM
7
 order to cover their spending needs.  And so whether or      02:11PM
8
 not it's temporary, my opinions don't change.                02:11PM
9
           Q.   And the amount that is lost, your opinions    02:11PM
10
 don't change; is that --                                     02:11PM
11
           A.   Correct.  Uh-hmm.                             02:11PM
12
           Q.   Do you know whether any class                 02:11PM
13
 representative here turned to expensive methods of           02:11PM
14
 borrowing when a portion of their UI benefits were halted?   02:11PM
15
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Outside the       02:11PM
16
 scope of the report.                                         02:11PM
17
           A.   I have seen information in the expert         02:11PM
18
 report of McCrary that indicates that.                       02:11PM
19
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And you understand that the    02:12PM
20
 class representatives are seeking to represent the class?    02:12PM
21
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Calls for a       02:12PM
22
 legal conclusion.                                            02:12PM
23
           A.   I do understand that, although it is          02:12PM
24
 outside the area of my expertise.                            02:12PM
25
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Did you review any materials   02:12PM
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 that pertained to the class representatives in connection    02:12PM
2
 with your report?                                            02:12PM
3
           A.   No, I did not, because I was focused on       02:12PM
4
 getting a large and representative sample of UI              02:12PM
5
 recipients in California.                                    02:12PM
6
           Q.   So for purposes of the record, you didn't     02:12PM
7
 review any of their interrogatory responses or written       02:12PM
8
 discovery responses.                                         02:12PM
9
           A.   Correct.                                      02:12PM
10
           Q.   None of the documents that they produced.     02:12PM
11
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Vague.            02:12PM
12
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Did you review the documents   02:12PM
13
 that they produced in this case?                             02:12PM
14
           A.   I did not.                                    02:13PM
15
           Q.   Did you review any of the deposition          02:13PM
16
 testimony that the class representatives provided?           02:13PM
17
           A.   No.                                           02:13PM
18
           Q.   And so you didn't consider any of the class   02:13PM
19
 representatives' responses or materials or documents in      02:13PM
20
 forming your opinion in this case.                           02:13PM
21
           A.   There's some sort of overall statistics       02:13PM
22
 that were included in the expert report of Victor Stango     02:13PM
23
 that I reviewed in preparing my report, but I did not        02:13PM
24
 review any individual level data on class members, no.       02:13PM
           
   
     
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9
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And so potentially the class   02:14PM
10
 representatives, then, as I understand are nonrandom?        02:14PM
11
                MS. HUNSICKER:  It's outside the scope of     02:14PM
12
 expertise.                                                   02:14PM
13
                MS. BRYS:  I'm trying to understand what      02:14PM
14
 she means by, "don't draw conclusions from small samples     02:14PM
15
 sizes that are potentially nonrandom."                       02:14PM
16
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  What -- what do you mean by    02:14PM
17
 that?                                                        02:14PM
18
           A.   I mean that in a statistical sense, the       02:14PM
19
 nine individuals might not be a random sample of the         02:14PM
20
 entire class.                                                02:14PM
21
           Q.   They could just be the best.  Okay.           02:14PM
22
                So in Paragraph 32 of your report, you        02:14PM
23
 stated that the costs of cutting consumption after the       02:15PM
24
 loss of UI benefits are likely at least as high as the       02:15PM
25
 cost of the preferred option of borrowing; is that           02:15PM
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 is not higher if UI recipients are not required to cut       02:18PM
2
 their consumption.  Would that be accurate?                  02:18PM
3
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Confusing.        02:18PM
4
           A.   Yeah, not higher than -- than what?           02:18PM
5
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Than the consumption they      02:18PM
6
 did not have to cut.                                         02:18PM
7
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Same objection.               02:18PM
8
           A.   I think the -- so this sentence, just to      02:18PM
9
 clarify, is not saying the value of UI benefits is the       02:18PM
10
 same as the consumption that they have to cut.  It's that    02:19PM
11
 the value of UI benefits is larger, the more recipients      02:19PM
12
 need to cut their consumption.                               02:19PM
13
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  So for -- turning to,   02:19PM
14
 again, the credit card interest rate.  You conclude that     02:19PM
15
 it is a conservative measure of the opportunity cost of      02:19PM
16
 lost funds to the proposed class members.                    02:19PM
17
                Why do you opine that it is a conservative    02:19PM
18
 measure?                                                     02:19PM
19
           A.   This is for a couple of different reasons.    02:19PM
20
                Primarily that the most common responses      02:19PM
21
 are going to be borrowing on a credit card or cutting        02:19PM
22
 consumption or -- and/or cutting consumption, and that       02:19PM
23
 the cost of cutting consumption is going to be much          02:19PM
24
 higher than the cost of borrowing because households are     02:19PM
25
 reducing consumption on necessities like food and medical    02:20PM
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 care.  And so this -- applying the credit card interest      02:20PM
2
 rate to the full population is a conservative estimate       02:20PM
3
 for the many people who have to cut consumption.             02:20PM
4
           Q.   And then in connection with this opinion,     02:20PM
5
 what evidence or data did you rely upon?                     02:20PM
6
           A.   What do you mean "this opinion"?  Which       02:20PM
7
 opinion?                                                     02:20PM
8
           Q.   The credit card interest -- the credit        02:20PM
9
 interest rate as a conservative measure of the opportunity   02:20PM
10
 cost of lost funds.                                          02:20PM
11
           A.   For this, I relied on a lot of different      02:20PM
12
 things, which is why I'm being a little slow in              02:20PM
13
 answering.                                                   02:20PM
14
                The literature that I reviewed all shows      02:20PM
15
 that people cut consumption when UI benefits are less        02:20PM
16
 generous or when UI benefits run out.  And the analysis      02:21PM
17
 that I did suggests that the most common responses are       02:21PM
18
 borrowing on a credit card or some more expensive            02:21PM
19
 borrowing or -- I should say the most common responses       02:21PM
20
 are borrowing on credit card or cutting consumption,         02:21PM
21
 which will be even more expensive.                           02:21PM
22
           Q.   And then you opine in Paragraph 36 that the   02:21PM
23
 median recipient had a good credit score.                    02:21PM
24
           A.   Yes.                                          02:21PM
25
           Q.   Again, that is using the median to            02:21PM
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5
           Q.   Have you identified any data specifically     02:44PM
6
 collected from this class?                                   02:44PM
7
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Asked and answered.           02:44PM
8
           A.   No.  I've been focused on aggregate           02:44PM
9
 representative data rather than individual data on the       02:44PM
10
 class.                                                       02:44PM
           
   
  
    
 
    
 
                       
           
   
                                          
15
           Q.   And as I understand, you have not             02:45PM
16
 identified any data specifically collected for this credit   02:45PM
17
 rescission subclass; is that accurate?                       02:45PM
18
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Asked and         02:45PM
19
 answered.                                                    02:45PM
20
                (Interruption.)                               02:45PM
21
                MS. BRYS:  Off record for a second.           02:45PM
22
                THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Off record 2:45 PM.        02:45PM
23
                (Recess from 2:45 PM to 2:46 PM)              02:46PM
24
                THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  On record 2:46 PM.         02:46PM
25
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Okay.  So turning back to      02:46PM
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 the question.                                                02:46PM
2
                I understand that you have not identified     02:46PM
3
 any data specifically collected for the credit rescission    02:46PM
4
 subclass identified in Mr. Regan's Paragraph 65; is that     02:46PM
5
 accurate?                                                    02:46PM
6
           A.   Correct.  I was focused on aggregate and      02:46PM
7
 representative data rather than on individual data on        02:46PM
8
 class members.                                               02:46PM
           
   
       
 
      
 
                                                     
           
   
                                          
           
   
               
 
      
                
  
  
         
 
                                                    
           
   
            
 
            
 
          
 
       
21
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And I understand as to your    02:47PM
22
 testimony today that you understand and you opine that the   02:47PM
23
 aggregate measure or the accurate measure is the median.     02:47PM
24
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates         02:47PM
25
 testimony.                                                   02:47PM
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           A.   What do you mean by "accurate measure"?       02:47PM
2
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  You have testified that you    02:47PM
3
 have not collected data specifically to any of the classes   02:47PM
4
 identified in the population as to those classes             02:47PM
5
 themselves; is that accurate?                                02:47PM
6
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Confusing.        02:48PM
7
           A.   I have not identified or I have not           02:48PM
8
 analyzed any data on the class members specifically          02:48PM
9
 because my assignment was to focus on calculating an         02:48PM
10
 interest rate that could be used to measure the aggregate    02:48PM
11
 harm to the class.  And that by identifying this number      02:48PM
12
 that can be representative of the majority of the class,     02:48PM
13
 that that can lead to an accurate measure of the             02:48PM
14
 aggregate harm.                                              02:48PM
15
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Have you identified any data   02:48PM
16
 that used -- as to the class members that used UI benefits   02:48PM
17
 to cover necessary expenses as opposed to luxury or          02:48PM
18
 discretionary purchases?                                     02:48PM
19
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Asked and         02:49PM
20
 answered.                                                    02:49PM
21
           A.   I have not identified any -- any              02:49PM
22
 individual-level data of class members because I wanted      02:49PM
23
 to use a dataset that was representative of all              02:49PM
24
 individuals rather than focusing on just some                02:49PM
25
 individual's experiences.                                    02:49PM
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           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Have you identified the        02:49PM
2
 median debt carried by the class members' households?        02:49PM
3
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Asked and         02:49PM
4
 answered.                                                    02:49PM
5
           A.   I have not identified that because I          02:49PM
6
 wanted to focus on data that is aggregate and                02:49PM
7
 representative of the class as a whole rather than           02:49PM
8
 individuals.                                                 02:49PM
9
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  And so is it your opinion      02:49PM
10
 that the median debt carried by a class member household     02:49PM
11
 is not representative of the class?                          02:49PM
12
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates         02:49PM
13
 testimony.                                                   02:49PM
14
           A.   No, that's not my opinion.                    02:49PM
15
                My opinion is that that data is not --        02:49PM
16
 well, it's not even my opinion.                              02:49PM
17
                I focused on data that comes from a large     02:50PM
18
 representative dataset given that my understanding is        02:50PM
19
 that data does not exist for class members.                  02:50PM
20
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  Have you asked for that        02:50PM
21
 data?                                                        02:50PM
22
           A.   No.                                           02:50PM
23
           Q.   So you don't know if it exists?               02:50PM
24
                MS. HUNSICKER:  Objection.  Misstates         02:50PM
25
 testimony.                                                   02:50PM
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1
 think we've looked at this before.                           03:02PM
2
           A.   Uh-hmm.                                       03:02PM
3
           Q.   In this one for the expenses, you've          03:02PM
4
 included everything from rent and mortgage to credit card    03:02PM
5
 bills, utility bills, student loans, et cetera.              03:02PM
6
           A.   In the sentence about the 21 percent, yes,    03:02PM
7
 that's correct.                                              03:02PM
8
           Q.   And why did you identify those expenses in    03:02PM
9
 particular?                                                  03:02PM
10
           A.   I believe it was two factors.                 03:02PM
11
                One is that these are important bills that    03:03PM
12
 individuals have to pay regularly and the data focuses on    03:03PM
13
 these important bills that individuals have to pay           03:03PM
14
 regularly.  And so I was following what the data allowed     03:03PM
15
 me to speak to.                                              03:03PM
16
                MS. BRYS:  What number are we on?  17?        03:03PM
17
                MR. SHUCHART:  Uh-hmm.                        03:03PM
18
           Q.   (By Ms. Brys)  So I would like to introduce   03:03PM
19
 as Exhibit 17 a report by Levine dated April 2025.  Have     03:03PM
20
 you seen this document before?                               03:04PM
21
                (Exhibit Number 17 was marked.)               03:04PM
22
           A.   Yes.                                          03:04PM
23
           Q.   I take it -- have you seen this document      03:04PM
24
 after the date on the first page of this document?           03:04PM
25
           A.   Yes.                                          03:04PM
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1
           Q.   Did you review this report in connection      03:04PM
2
 with preparing for your deposition today?                    03:04PM
3
           A.   Yes.                                          03:04PM
4
           Q.   Do you agree with his opinions in that        03:04PM
5
 report?                                                      03:04PM
6
           A.   I probably need more time --                  03:04PM
7
           Q.   Okay.                                         03:04PM
8
           A.   -- to page through every single opinion       03:04PM
9
 but in general, yes I do.                                    03:04PM
10
           Q.   Oh.                                           03:04PM
11
           A.   Okay.                                         03:05PM
12
           Q.   Do you agree with the opinions reflected in   03:05PM
13
 that report?                                                 03:05PM
14
           A.   I agree with the opinions reflected, the      03:05PM
15
 first and second opinion.  The third I was not asked to      03:05PM
16
 provide an opinion on so am not going to provide an          03:05PM
17
 opinion on his opinion.                                      03:05PM
18
           Q.   Okay.  So for purposes of making the          03:05PM
19
 transcript easy to read, can you tell me which of -- can     03:06PM
20
 you advise me which of the opinions, by reading them         03:06PM
21
 aloud, that you agree with?                                  03:06PM
22
           A.   Sure.                                         03:06PM
23
                The first one is use of a compound            03:06PM
24
 interest rate is an appropriate measure of the               03:06PM
25
 opportunity cost of delayed UI benefits, and the second      03:06PM
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 is the credit card interest rate is a conservative           03:06PM
2
 measure of opportunity of the cost of depriving UI           03:06PM
3
 recipients of their benefits.                                03:06PM
4
           Q.   And you do not have an opinion on whether     03:06PM
5
 or not you agree with his third opinion, which is the        03:06PM
6
 minimum wage is an appropriate measure of the value of       03:06PM
7
 lost time for the customer service class.                    03:06PM
8
           A.   Correct.                                      03:06PM
9
           Q.   And as I understand, that is because you      03:06PM
10
 were not asked to form an opinion as to that opinion.        03:06PM
11
           A.   Correct.                                      03:06PM
12
           Q.   So turning to Paragraph 45 of his report,     03:06PM
13
 have you reviewed this paragraph before?                     03:07PM
14
           A.   Yes.                                          03:07PM
15
           Q.   And in it I believe he opines that class      03:07PM
16
 members paid an effective interest rate of at least          03:07PM
17
 15.9 percent.  Do you see that?                              03:07PM
18
           A.   Yes.                                          03:07PM
19
           Q.   Why do you and Levine in this report come     03:07PM
20
 to different measurements on the credit card borrowing       03:07PM
21
 rate for the class members?                                  03:07PM
22
           A.   Well, it's very common when two economists    03:07PM
23
 are answering the same research question to review           03:07PM
24
 slightly different research or slightly different data       03:07PM
25
 and come to slightly different conclusions because of        03:07PM
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           A.   Okay.                                         03:31PM
2
           Q.   The last sentence here says, Taken            03:31PM
3
 together, this evidence points to the vast majority of UI    03:31PM
4
 recipients in California between 2020 and 2021 being         03:31PM
5
 unable to cover their expenses if they suddenly lose         03:31PM
6
 access to UI benefits.                                       03:31PM
7
                Do you see that sentence?                     03:31PM
8
           A.   Yes.                                          03:31PM
9
           Q.   What do you mean by if they suddenly lose     03:31PM
10
 access to benefits -- UI benefits?                           03:31PM
11
           A.   So here I mean if individuals are denied      03:31PM
12
 some or all of the UI benefits that they are entitled to     03:31PM
13
 without a lot of notice, you know, all of a sudden.          03:31PM
14
           Q.   And what is your understanding of who         03:31PM
15
 suddenly lost access to UI benefits in this case?            03:31PM
16
           A.   My understanding is that all class members    03:31PM
17
 suddenly lost access to UI benefits in this case.            03:31PM
18
           Q.   Do you have an understanding as to whether    03:32PM
19
 members of the account freeze class suddenly lost access     03:32PM
20
 to UI benefits?                                              03:32PM
21
           A.   So my understanding is that members of the    03:32PM
22
 account freeze class in addition to having their account     03:32PM
23
 frozen, which meant that they suddenly lost access to        03:32PM
24
 their UI benefits because their account was frozen, that     03:32PM
25
 they also suddenly lost access to benefits by having a       03:32PM
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 claim denied.                                                03:32PM
2
           Q.   And is it your understanding that account     03:32PM
3
 freeze class members were unable to access the UI funds in   03:32PM
4
 their accounts while those accounts were frozen by the       03:32PM
5
 bank?                                                        03:32PM
6
           A.   It's my understanding that account freeze     03:32PM
7
 class members were unable to access the funds while the      03:32PM
8
 accounts were frozen.                                        03:32PM
9
                There were some small subset of class         03:32PM
10
 members who may have been able to access benefits on         03:32PM
11
 paper checks but unclear how large that is.  And             03:33PM
 
        
 
       
 
      
 
         
 
                             
           
   
      
 
    
 
     
 
                                                      
           
   
      
 
         
 
        
24
           Q.   Okay.  What is your understanding of which    03:33PM
25
 classes your proposed interest rate will be used to          03:33PM
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 calculate damages for?                                       03:33PM
2
           A.   So it's my understanding that it's the        03:33PM
3
 three classes we've been talking about, so the claim         03:33PM
4
 denial class, the credit rescission class, the account       03:34PM
5
 freeze class, plus the fifth class, which is the EMV chip    03:34PM
6
 class.                                                       03:34PM
7
           Q.   And what's your understanding of how the      03:34PM
8
 20.8 percent interest rate that you proposed will be used    03:34PM
9
 to calculate damages for the claim denial class?             03:34PM
10
           A.   The 20.8 percent interest rate that I         03:34PM
11
 proposed will be used by multiplying this interest rate      03:34PM
12
 by the amount of time the individuals lost access to UI      03:34PM
13
 benefits and the principal amount of UI benefits that        03:34PM
14
 they lost access to.                                         03:34PM
15
           Q.   And what is the principal amount of           03:34PM
16
 benefits for a hypothetical claim denial class member?       03:34PM
17
           A.   It would be the amount of benefits that       03:34PM
18
 they were denied because of indicator one.                   03:34PM
19
           Q.   And what's your understanding of how the      03:34PM
20
 interest rate you proposed will be used to calculate         03:34PM
21
 damages for the credit rescission class?                     03:35PM
22
           A.   The interest rate will be multiplied by       03:35PM
23
 the amount of time individuals did not have access to        03:35PM
24
 their full UI benefits multiplied by the principal amount    03:35PM
25
 of UI benefits they were denied access to.                   03:35PM
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           Q.   And what's your understanding of how the      03:35PM
2
 20.8 percent interest rate you proposed will be used to      03:35PM
3
 calculate damages for the account freeze class?              03:35PM
4
           A.   For the account freeze class, the interest    03:35PM
5
 rate I propose will be multiplied by the length of time      03:35PM
6
 individuals were denied UI benefits and multiplied by the    03:35PM
7
 amount of UI benefits that that class was -- or that each    03:35PM
8
 member of that class was denied.                             03:35PM
9
           Q.   And what is your understanding of the         03:35PM
10
 principal amount of UI benefits that an account freeze       03:35PM
11
 class member was denied?                                     03:35PM
12
           A.   My understanding is that is the account       03:35PM
13
 balance that was frozen in this account freeze class.        03:36PM
14
           Q.   And what's your understanding of the extent   03:36PM
15
 to which account freeze class members might have continued   03:36PM
16
 to receive ongoing benefits?                                 03:36PM
17
           A.   My understanding is that that was rare, at    03:36PM
18
 least until March, and that there's no hard data that        03:36PM
19
 suggests that most people were continuing to receive UI      03:36PM
20
 benefits.                                                    03:36PM
21
           Q.   And what is your understanding of how the     03:36PM
22
 20.8 percent interest rate will be used to calculate         03:36PM
23
 damages related to those delayed benefit payments?           03:36PM
24
           A.   Again, it will be multiplied by the length    03:36PM
25
 of time individuals were denied access to UI benefits and    03:36PM
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 the principal amount that they were denied.                  03:36PM
2
           Q.   And the principal amount in this case for     03:36PM
3
 the account freeze class related to their denied --          03:36PM
4
 delayed benefit payments would be what?                      03:36PM
5
           A.   The amount of benefits that they were         03:37PM
6
 denied access to.                                            03:37PM
7
           Q.   And is it your understanding that those       03:37PM
8
 ongoing benefits were received right away?                   03:37PM
9
           A.   No, it's not my understanding.                03:37PM
10
           Q.   What is your understanding of when they       03:37PM
11
 were received, if at all?                                    03:37PM
12
           A.   It's my understanding that there was a        03:37PM
13
 delay, but I don't have a good sense about the exact         03:37PM
14
 length of that delay.                                        03:37PM
15
           Q.   Okay.  Can you go to Paragraph 10(F) of       03:37PM
16
 your report, please.                                         03:37PM
17
                Your opinion here says, In my opinion, the    03:37PM
18
 average credit card interest rate of 20.8 percent is an      03:37PM
19
 appropriate figure to use to calculate the cost to class     03:37PM
20
 members resulting from denial of access to their             03:37PM
21
 principal claim amounts and frozen account balances.         03:37PM
22
                Can you explain what you mean by that,        03:37PM
23
 please?                                                      03:37PM
24
           A.   Yes.                                          03:37PM
25
                So in my report, I review research and        03:38PM
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 conduct my own analysis to come up with the 20.8 credit      03:38PM
2
 card interest rate as appropriate, if anything,              03:38PM
3
 underestimate of the cost faced by class members.  And       03:38PM
4
 because my report is focused on providing this interest      03:38PM
5
 rate that will lead to an aggregate damages calculation,     03:38PM
6
 the important thing is that the 20.8 percent is              03:38PM
7
 representative of a large -- large number of class           03:38PM
8
 members, and so there might be some class members that       03:38PM
9
 have slightly lower interest rates that they face or         03:38PM
10
 slightly higher interest rates that they face.  But when     03:38PM
11
 applying this average measure to the entire class and        03:38PM
12
 aggregating up, it will be just as good as taking those      03:38PM
13
 slightly lower or slightly higher and aggregating all of     03:38PM
14
 those up.  It will be -- it will lead to the same            03:39PM
15
 estimate.                                                    03:39PM
16
           Q.   When you say "just as good," what do you      03:39PM
17
 mean by that?                                                03:39PM
18
           A.   I mean it will lead to the same estimate      03:39PM
19
 of the aggregate damages.                                    03:39PM
20
           Q.   Okay.  Are all -- are all proposed class      03:39PM
21
 members individuals in California who received UI benefits   03:39PM
22
 in 2020 or 2021?                                             03:39PM
23
           A.   Yes.  All proposed class members are UI       03:39PM
24
 recipients in California who received benefits during        03:39PM
25
 2020 or 2021, which is why my analysis of the SIPP data      03:39PM
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CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 
I, DEANNA BAYSINGER, a Registered Professional 
Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of 
Colorado, commissioned to administer oaths, do hereby 
certify that previous to the commencement of the 
examination, the witness was duly sworn by me to testify 
the truth in relation to matters in controversy between 
the said parties; that the said deposition was taken in 
stenotype by me at the time and place aforesaid and was 
thereafter reduced to typewritten form by me; and that 
the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of my 
stenotype notes thereof. 
That I am not an attorney nor counsel nor in 
any way connected with any attorney or counsel for any of 
the parties to said action nor otherwise interested in the 
outcome of this action. 
My commission expires: 
November 8, 2026. 
DEANNA BAYSINGER 
Registered Professional Reporter 
Notary Public, State of Colorado 
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