Court filing
14F — In re Bank of America California Unemployment Benefits Litigation (Dkt. 591-39, S.D. Cal. No. 3:21-md-02992)
Filed October 17, 2025 in In re Bank of America California Unemployment Benefits Litigation; one of 1415 filings from this case.
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court for the Southern District of California |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2025-10-17 |
U.S. District Court for the Southern District of California · No. 3:21-md-02992-GPC-MSB · Doc. 591-39 · 2025-10-17 · Docket on CourtListener
Full text
DX 14.F
REDACTED VERSION OF
DOCUMENT SOUGHT TO
BE SEALED PURSUANT TO
STIPULATED
PROTECTIVE ORDER
Case 3:21-md-02992-GPC-MSB Document 591-39 Filed 10/17/25 PageID.41664
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
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SAN DIEGO DIVISION
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Civil Action No. 21-MD-02992-GPC-MSB
____________________________________________________________
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IN RE: BANK OF AMERICA CALIFORNIA
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UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS LITIGATION
____________________________________________________________
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7
VIDEO DEPOSITION OF CHLOE NOEL EAST, Ph.D.
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May 15, 2025
____________________________________________________________
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APPEARANCES:
ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
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CAROLINE HUNSICKER, ESQ.
CONNIE K. CHAN, ESQ. (via remote)
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Altshuler Berzon LLP
177 Post Street, Suite 300
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San Francisco, California 94108
Phone: 415-421-7151
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Email: chunsicker@altshulerberzon.com
Email: cchan@altber.com
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16
and
JOSHUA B. SWIGART, ESQ. (via remote)
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ILANA PLATKIEWICZ, ESQ. (via remote)
Swigart Law Group, APC
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2221 Camino Del Rio S, Suite 308
San Diego, California 92108
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Phone: 866-219-3343
Email: josh@swigartlawgroup.com
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Email: ilana@swigartlawgroup.com
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important UI is for individuals who are receiving it as 09:28AM
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well as the harms that will be caused as a result of 09:29AM
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denying some UI benefits and the -- and to provide an 09:29AM
4
estimate of the cost faced by class members as a result 09:29AM
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of this denial. 09:29AM
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Q. And just for clarifying the record, by "UI" 09:29AM
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you mean unemployment insurance. 09:29AM
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A. Yes. Thank you. 09:29AM
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Q. Much shorter. 09:29AM
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And what you just testified to, that -- 09:29AM
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that was the assignment you were given in connection with 09:29AM
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this case; is that accurate? 09:29AM
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A. Yes. 09:29AM
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Q. Okay. Let's mark as Exhibit 2 your expert 09:29AM
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report. Have you seen this document before? 09:29AM
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(Exhibit Number 2 was marked.) 09:30AM
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A. Yes. 09:30AM
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Q. Does this accurately reflect your opinions 09:30AM
19
in this case? 09:30AM
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A. Yes. 09:30AM
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Q. Since -- what is the date of that report? 09:30AM
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A. The date is March 4, 2025. 09:30AM
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Q. As you sit here today, do you have anything 09:30AM
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you would like to change or amend from your report? 09:30AM
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A. No. 09:30AM
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Q. Do you intend to offer any additional 09:30AM
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opinions beyond what's contained in your report? 09:30AM
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A. Not as I sit here today, no. 09:30AM
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Q. So as you sit here today, the report, 09:30AM
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Exhibit 2, in front of you, accurately reflects your 09:30AM
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opinions that you intend to offer as of today in this 09:30AM
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case? 09:30AM
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A. Yes. Although I did review the two 09:30AM
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rebuttal reports by the Bank of America experts and have 09:31AM
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some thoughts based on those reports that may come up 09:31AM
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today as well. 09:31AM
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Q. Well, just for purposes of the record, 09:31AM
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let's put in the designations first and then I will 09:31AM
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clarify which reports you reviewed just so we can get that 09:31AM
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clear. 09:31AM
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A. Uh-hmm. 09:31AM
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Q. So let's do Plaintiffs' Supplemental Expert 09:31AM
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Designation as Exhibit 3. Have you seen this document 09:31AM
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before? 09:31AM
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(Exhibit Number 3 was marked.) 09:31AM
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A. Yes. 09:31AM
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Q. Does this accurately reflect your retention 09:31AM
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by Plaintiffs? 09:31AM
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A. Yes. 09:32AM
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Q. Okay. What's the date of this designation? 09:32AM
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Q. Now, is this one of the rebuttal reports 09:35AM
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you were referring to that you said you have reviewed and 09:35AM
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have certain opinions on? 09:35AM
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A. Yes. 09:35AM
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Q. Okay. And then let's mark as Exhibit 7 the 09:35AM
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McCrary report. 09:36AM
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Okay. So I would like to mark as 09:36AM
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Exhibit 7 the April 4, 2025, report by Justin McCrary. 09:36AM
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Have you seen this document before? 09:36AM
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(Exhibit Number 7 was marked.) 09:36AM
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A. Yes. 09:36AM
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Q. Is this the second rebuttal report you were 09:36AM
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referring to when you said you had reviewed two rebuttal 09:36AM
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reports by Bank of America? 09:36AM
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A. Yes. 09:36AM
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Q. Okay. So why don't we turn back to the -- 09:36AM
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I don't know the number -- Stango 2024 report, which is 09:36AM
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Exhibit 5. 09:36AM
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So to the extent you have any opinions on 09:36AM
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this report, which is dated October 2024, are those 09:36AM
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opinions contained in your expert report that is marked as 09:37AM
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Exhibit 2? 09:37AM
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A. Yes. 09:37AM
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Q. Do you have any additional opinions on the 09:37AM
25
report, which is marked as Exhibit 5, besides those that 09:37AM
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are contained in Exhibit 2? 09:37AM
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A. No, not today. 09:37AM
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Q. Okay. And so turning to Exhibit 6, which 09:37AM
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is the Stango report dated April 2025, and you testified 09:37AM
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you have seen this document before; correct? 09:37AM
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A. Correct. 09:37AM
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Q. So what, if any, are your opinions on this 09:37AM
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report -- 09:37AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 09:37AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) -- that is marked as 09:37AM
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Exhibit 6? 09:37AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Sorry. Objection. Vague. 09:37AM
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A. Can you provide some more information 09:38AM
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about what you mean, please? 09:38AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) Do you agree with his 09:38AM
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opinions in Exhibit 6? 09:38AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 09:38AM
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A. Some of the points made in this report I 09:38AM
19
do not agree with. 09:38AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) And which points are those? 09:38AM
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A. I do not have the list off the top of my 09:38AM
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head. I can go through and discuss, but I don't have a 09:38AM
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list off the top of my head. 09:38AM
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Q. And just to clarify again for purposes of 09:39AM
25
the record, your -- any additional thoughts you have on 09:39AM
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either Exhibit 6 or Exhibit 7 are not contained in 09:39AM
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Exhibit 2 because those post date the date of your report; 09:39AM
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is that accurate? 09:39AM
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A. Correct. 09:39AM
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Q. Okay. So just for purposes of refreshing 09:39AM
6
your recollection, why don't we take a look at the Table 09:39AM
7
of Contents. We will just look at the Table of Contents 09:39AM
8
for Exhibit 6. If you can read the Table of Contents at 09:39AM
9
Pages 1 and 2. 09:40AM
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Okay. So first, as you sit here today, do 09:42AM
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you intend to offer a supplemental report? 09:42AM
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A. No. 09:42AM
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Q. Okay. Are you in the process of preparing 09:42AM
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any further reports? 09:42AM
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A. No. 09:42AM
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Q. However you did testify you have additional 09:42AM
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thoughts and disagree with certain opinions in Exhibit 6; 09:42AM
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is that accurate? 09:42AM
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A. Yes. 09:42AM
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Q. Okay. So just to understand which opinions 09:42AM
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you disagree with, which I understand you're not in the 09:42AM
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process of preparing a report to set forth, after you have 09:42AM
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reviewed Pages 1 and 2 of Exhibit 6, have you identified 09:42AM
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any opinions contained therein which you disagree with? 09:42AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Confusing. 09:42AM
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A. So after reviewing Pages 1 and 2, the idea 09:42AM
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that the interest rate calculations cannot be applied 09:43AM
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classwide is something that I disagree with, and the idea 09:43AM
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that there needs to be a distinction made between certain 09:43AM
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types of class members is also something that I disagree 09:43AM
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with. 09:43AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) And why do you believe that 09:43AM
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the interest rate calculations can be applied classwide? 09:43AM
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A. I believe the interest rate calculations 09:43AM
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can be applied classwide because that's very consistent 09:43AM
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with how economists think about calculating the impact of 09:43AM
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a policy change or a business decision on a population. 09:44AM
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If the vast majority of a population is impacted in a 09:44AM
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given way, then it's standard practice to apply that most 09:44AM
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common experience to the entire population. 09:44AM
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Q. And then as to the second idea that you 09:44AM
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stated you disagree with, why do you disagree with the 09:44AM
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idea that there needs to be a distinction made between 09:44AM
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certain types of class members? 09:44AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates 09:44AM
21
testimony. 09:44AM
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A. So I do not think it's necessary to 09:44AM
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distinguish between different types of class members in 09:44AM
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order to get a reliable estimate of the harm caused on 09:44AM
25
class members. Again because this is very standard 09:45AM
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practice, that if there's a common experience that most 09:45AM
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people in the group have, that we, as economists, would 09:45AM
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be comfortable and think that is accurate to apply that 09:45AM
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most common experience to everybody in the group. 09:45AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) And are those opinions, 09:45AM
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although they are dated from March 2024, generally 09:45AM
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reflected in Exhibit 2? 09:45AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 09:45AM
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A. Yes. 09:45AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) Based on your previous 09:45AM
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review of Exhibit 6, is there anything you would change in 09:45AM
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your Exhibit 2? 09:45AM
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A. No. 09:45AM
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Q. And when I say "previous review," I mean 09:46AM
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not of the Table of Contents, Pages 1 and 2. But to the 09:46AM
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extent you had previously testified that you had reviewed 09:46AM
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Exhibit 6, after you have reviewed Exhibit 6, does that 09:46AM
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change your opinions in Exhibit 2? 09:46AM
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A. Thanks for clarifying. 09:46AM
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No, it does not. 09:46AM
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Q. Okay. So turning to Exhibit 7, which is 09:46AM
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the McCrary report April 2025. And you have seen this 09:46AM
23
document before; correct? 09:46AM
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A. Correct. 09:46AM
25
Q. Have you discussed this document with 09:46AM
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A. Yes. 09:53AM
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Q. Okay. I think we have -- and also in 09:53AM
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connection with Exhibit 7, you're not in the process of 09:53AM
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preparing a supplemental report in connection with the 09:53AM
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opinions listed by Mr. McCrary in Exhibit 7; is that 09:53AM
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accurate? 09:53AM
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A. Yes. 09:53AM
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Q. Okay. And do you -- you do not, as you sit 09:53AM
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here today, intend to offer a supplemental or additional 09:53AM
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report to address any opinion -- opinions that are 09:53AM
11
contained in Exhibit 7; is that accurate? 09:53AM
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A. Yes. 09:53AM
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Q. Okay. And what is your hourly rate in 09:53AM
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this matter? 09:54AM
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A. $400. 09:54AM
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Q. And approximately how many hours have you 09:54AM
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worked on this case? 09:54AM
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A. I'm guessing about a hundred. 09:54AM
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Q. And have you invoiced all of those hours? 09:54AM
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A. Not yet. 09:54AM
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Q. Okay. Did you review any materials in 09:54AM
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preparation for your deposition today? 09:54AM
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A. Yes. 09:54AM
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Q. What materials did you review? 09:54AM
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A. I reviewed my report, the Exhibit 5, 6 and 09:54AM
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Q. Are you aware of any errors in your report 10:02AM
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or opinions that you would like to amend? 10:02AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 10:02AM
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A. No, I am not aware of any. 10:02AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) Since the issuance of your 10:02AM
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report, have you changed any of your opinions? 10:02AM
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A. No. 10:02AM
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Q. And then you previously testified that the 10:02AM
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only additional documents you have reviewed since your 10:02AM
10
report are the additional expert reports; is that 10:02AM
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accurate? 10:03AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates 10:03AM
13
testimony. 10:03AM
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A. I reviewed the expert reports as well as 10:03AM
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some of the literature that is cited in those expert 10:03AM
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reports and the work papers that were provided to 10:03AM
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supplement the report by Justin McCrary. 10:03AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. Now turning to the 10:03AM
19
data listed under Appendix B, how did you decide what data 10:03AM
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to review in connection with this -- your representation 10:03AM
21
of Plaintiffs in this action? 10:03AM
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A. Well, I've been studying unemployment 10:03AM
23
insurance since 2012, so I'm very familiar with what are 10:03AM
24
the most commonly used and most useful datasets that 10:03AM
25
capture unemployment insurance received and also 10:04AM
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household finance -- financial information. So I used 10:04AM
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that background knowledge to make the decision. 10:04AM
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Q. And you decided on the three items that are 10:04AM
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listed under data in your Appendix B; is that accurate? 10:04AM
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A. Yes. 10:04AM
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Q. Was there any data that you decided not to 10:04AM
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use? 10:04AM
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A. No. 10:04AM
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Q. Were there any opinions that you were asked 10:04AM
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to provide that are not reflected in your report? 10:04AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Beyond the 10:04AM
12
scope. 10:04AM
13
A. No. 10:04AM
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MS. BRYS: Why don't we take a break here 10:04AM
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before we go into particular reports. 10:04AM
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THE DEPONENT: Sounds good. 10:05AM
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. Off record 10:05AM
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10:05 AM. 10:05AM
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(Recess from 10:05 AM to 10:17 AM) 10:17AM
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on record at 10:17AM
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10:17 AM. 10:17AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. Why don't we turn to 10:17AM
23
Exhibit 2. 10:17AM
24
A. Okay. 10:18AM
25
Q. And again just to clarify for the record, 10:18AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. So you have an 10:44AM
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understanding that some individuals may have received 10:44AM
8
paper checks from the state or from an agency to access 10:44AM
9
their unemployment insurance benefits. 10:44AM
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A. Yes. 10:44AM
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Q. And for the credit -- claim denial and 10:44AM
12
credit rescission class, they were still receiving their 10:44AM
13
UI benefits at that time to the extent they were not 10:44AM
14
members of the account freeze class or did not otherwise 10:44AM
15
receive their benefits via check or another means; is that 10:44AM
16
accurate? 10:44AM
17
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Compound. 10:44AM
18
A. That is my understanding, yes. 10:44AM
19
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. Do you have -- what 10:44AM
20
is your understanding of how the harm is calculated as to 10:44AM
21
the credit denial class to the extent you have any? 10:45AM
22
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection -- 10:45AM
23
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Or claim denial class. I 10:45AM
24
keep saying that. 10:45AM
25
A. Can -- can you clarify what you mean by 10:45AM
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"harm"? 10:45AM
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Q. What is your understanding of what -- to 10:45AM
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the extent you have one, of what the damages are to the 10:45AM
4
claim denial class? 10:45AM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection to the extent 10:45AM
6
that's beyond the scope of the report. 10:45AM
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A. So my understanding is that the 10:45AM
8
consequential damages are going to be calculated 10:45AM
9
potentially using an interest rate and that my assignment 10:45AM
10
was to think about an accurate estimate of that interest 10:45AM
11
rate. 10:46AM
12
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. And what is your 10:46AM
13
understanding of the interest rate? 10:46AM
14
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 10:46AM
15
A. Can you clarify what you mean by 10:46AM
16
"understanding of"? 10:46AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) You testified that your 10:46AM
18
assignment was to think about an accurate estimate of the 10:46AM
19
interest rate for consequential damages to the classes. 10:46AM
20
What in your opinion is the proper 10:46AM
21
interest rate that should be used? 10:46AM
22
A. In my opinion, the interest rate of 10:46AM
23
20.8 percent is an accurate and conservative estimate of 10:46AM
24
the cost faced by class members. 10:46AM
25
Q. And how do you come up with 20.8 percent? 10:46AM
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A. For this, I'll refer us to a paragraph in 10:46AM
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my report. Let me find the number here. 10:47AM
3
So for this it's in Paragraph 36. 10:47AM
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Q. And so does Paragraph 36 then accurately 10:47AM
5
refer to the basis by which you came up with 20.8 percent? 10:47AM
6
A. Yes, it does. Although this is sort of 10:47AM
7
building on earlier paragraphs that are explaining why a 10:47AM
8
credit card interest rate is an appropriate interest rate 10:47AM
9
since you could take an interest rate not from a credit 10:48AM
10
card as well. 10:48AM
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Q. And then why, in your opinion, is it 10:48AM
12
appropriate to take an interest rate from a credit card? 10:48AM
13
A. Because after my review of the literature 10:48AM
14
and of the data, the most common experiences of UI 10:48AM
15
recipients that have their UI benefits or part of their 10:48AM
16
UI benefits denied to them is going to be to borrow 10:48AM
17
either on either a credit card or something more 10:48AM
18
expensive than a credit card or to cut their spending or 10:48AM
19
some combination of the two. 10:48AM
20
Q. And in coming up with the amount of -- or 10:48AM
21
the -- strike that -- of the -- in coming up with the 10:48AM
22
20.8 percent interest rate, did that include any 10:48AM
23
consideration for the amount that would be borrowed? 10:49AM
24
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 10:49AM
25
A. No. It's my understanding that that will 10:49AM
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be factored into the method for consequential damages but 10:49AM
2
that's not factored into the 20.8 percent. 10:49AM
3
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. So to be accurate, 10:49AM
4
you didn't consider whether or not somebody was borrowing, 10:49AM
5
for purposes of your assignment, $5 or $2,000. 10:49AM
6
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates 10:49AM
7
testimony. 10:49AM
8
A. My assignment was to focus on an interest 10:49AM
9
rate that is representative of the costs of being denied 10:49AM
10
access to UI benefits. 10:49AM
11
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. And would it be 10:49AM
12
accurate to say that is irrespective of the UI benefits to 10:49AM
13
which they would not have access to? 10:50AM
14
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates 10:50AM
15
testimony. 10:50AM
16
A. I considered the amounts of UI benefits 10:50AM
17
that individuals were denied in thinking about the -- 10:50AM
18
in -- in understanding sort of the general outlines of 10:50AM
19
the situation here, but I did not consider that amount in 10:50AM
20
the 20.8 percent because the amount is not the thing 10:50AM
21
that's important. The thing that's important is the cost 10:50AM
22
of being denied benefits which is reflected in the 20.8. 10:50AM
23
Q. (By Ms. Brys) And is the 20.8 percent 10:50AM
24
reflective of the proper interest rate regardless of the 10:51AM
25
class? 10:51AM
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A. To clarify you mean the three classes we 10:51AM
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were talking about before? 10:51AM
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Q. Correct. 10:51AM
4
A. Yes, I agree. 10:51AM
5
Q. Okay. Are there any other opinions that we 10:51AM
6
haven't particularly discussed today in general overview 10:51AM
7
that are important in your report or by way of your 10:51AM
8
assignment that you intend to offer in connection with 10:51AM
9
this case? 10:51AM
10
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 10:52AM
11
A. I would just come back to the three main 10:52AM
12
opinions in my report. So the first is that UI benefits 10:52AM
13
provide this crucial safety net for individuals who are 10:52AM
14
experiencing a job loss because they're a highly 10:52AM
15
vulnerable and financially precarious group. And as a 10:52AM
16
result of that, the typical UI recipient does not have 10:52AM
17
enough savings to cover the loss of UI benefits even 10:52AM
18
partially or temporarily. 10:52AM
19
And then finally, that the credit card 10:52AM
20
interest rate is a good estimate and, if anything, an 10:52AM
21
underestimate of the cost faced by recipients who lost 10:53AM
22
access to their benefits. 10:53AM
23
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. And so you previously 10:53AM
24
testified that you reviewed certain articles in connection 10:53AM
25
with both your report and in preparation for your 10:53AM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) Did you do a survey of any 12:22PM
2
class members in connection with this case? 12:22PM
3
A. Thanks for clarifying. 12:22PM
4
No, I didn't. 12:22PM
5
Q. So would it be accurate to say you used 12:22PM
6
existing datasets instead of conducting surveys personally 12:22PM
7
as to an understanding of -- that forms the basis of the 12:22PM
8
opinions in your report? 12:22PM
9
A. Yes. I used the method that I use in all 12:22PM
10
of my research, which is taking advantage of large 12:22PM
11
representative datasets that are preexisting to 12:22PM
12
characterize a population. 12:22PM
13
Q. Okay. So generally speaking in your 12:22PM
14
research, you don't interview individuals who may be 12:22PM
15
impacted in connection with your opinions. 12:23PM
16
A. Generally that's correct, yeah. 12:23PM
17
Q. Are there ever situations where you do 12:23PM
18
interview individuals or individual situations? 12:23PM
19
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Overbroad. 12:23PM
20
A. Do you mean in -- in a research project? 12:23PM
21
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Correct. 12:23PM
22
Because you -- you testified that in your 12:23PM
23
research, you usually take advantage of large 12:23PM
24
representative datasets and you further testified that, 12:23PM
25
generally speaking, that's the method you use. 12:23PM
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What do you mean by suddenly lose access to UI benefits? 12:32PM
2
A. What I mean here is if individuals don't 12:32PM
3
have access to their full amount of UI benefits that 12:32PM
4
they're entitled to and that that happens suddenly or 12:32PM
5
quickly. 12:32PM
6
Q. Okay. Would it be -- are you referring to 12:32PM
7
a permanent or a temporary loss? 12:32PM
8
A. I'm not being specific in that sentence 12:32PM
9
because it actually doesn't matter if it's a permanent or 12:32PM
10
a temporary loss. Individuals are not going to be able 12:32PM
11
to cover their expenses regardless if it's permanent or 12:32PM
12
temporary. 12:32PM
13
Q. And in connection with your opinions in 12:32PM
14
this case, have you identified which of the class members 12:33PM
15
suddenly lost access to UI benefits? 12:33PM
16
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Confusing. 12:33PM
17
A. I'm not sure I understand what -- what 12:33PM
18
you're asking. 12:33PM
19
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Is your opinions in 12:33PM
20
Paragraph 20, which I understand is about the vast 12:33PM
21
majority of UI recipients in California, have you 12:33PM
22
identified of those in the class which ones in particular 12:33PM
23
are impacted or would your opinion in Paragraph 20 relate 12:33PM
24
to? 12:33PM
25
A. Well, what I'm focused on here is 12:33PM
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characterizing what is the most common experience among 12:33PM
2
UI recipients in California using this data that is 12:34PM
3
representative, and I'm doing that rather than analyzing 12:34PM
4
individual class member data. Because again, this is 12:34PM
5
sort of the common approach that economists will take 12:34PM
6
when they're trying to look at the effect of a policy 12:34PM
7
change or a business decision on individuals. 12:34PM
8
Q. Okay. If we could take a quick look at 12:34PM
9
Paragraph 23 of your report. 12:34PM
10
How many households were you looking at in 12:34PM
11
particular in Paragraph 23 of your report? 12:34PM
12
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 12:35PM
13
A. In which part of this paragraph are you 12:35PM
14
referring to? 12:35PM
15
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Of course I have the wrong 12:35PM
16
paragraph. 12:35PM
17
I think by way of -- I calculated that 12:35PM
18
even after receiving stimulus payments, most UI 12:35PM
19
recipients. 12:35PM
20
Is there any particular sample size you 12:35PM
21
looked at in making your opinions in Paragraph 23? 12:35PM
22
A. Well, just -- just a point of 12:35PM
23
clarification. When -- when -- when I say sample size, I 12:35PM
24
generally think of the number of households but when 12:35PM
25
I'm -- 12:35PM
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Q. Did you take any steps to ensure that the 01:34PM
2
population of UI recipients in California accurately 01:34PM
3
reflected the circumstances of proposed class members? 01:34PM
4
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 01:34PM
5
A. What do you mean by "accurately 01:34PM
6
reflected"? 01:34PM
7
Q. (By Ms. Brys) You testified earlier that 01:34PM
8
there are certain classes that are being proposed as you 01:34PM
9
understand in this litigation regarding unemployed -- UI 01:34PM
10
benefit recipients in the state of California. 01:34PM
11
So did you take any steps to ensure that 01:34PM
12
your use of the national sample accurately reflected the 01:34PM
13
proposed class members in this litigation? 01:34PM
14
MS. HUNSICKER: Same objection. 01:35PM
15
A. In this analysis -- well, in the -- in the 01:35PM
16
main analysis, I'm using the SIPP data that allows me to 01:35PM
17
look at California UI recipients and that sample should 01:35PM
18
be representative of the class members who are California 01:35PM
19
UI recipients during the same time period. 01:35PM
20
And then to extend to the SHED data and 01:35PM
21
make sure that it's reasonable to extend to the SHED 01:35PM
22
data, I make that comparison between California UI 01:35PM
23
recipients and the nationwide sample of UI recipients. 01:35PM
24
Q. (By Ms. Brys) And to the extent you can 01:35PM
25
recall, what is the size of the sample of the SHED data 01:35PM
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get a sense about the financial situation of households 01:40PM
2
who are likely eligible for the SNAP program or what's 01:40PM
3
called food stamps. 01:40PM
4
Q. Okay. And so would that be in connection 01:40PM
5
with any publications you have in connection with the SNAP 01:40PM
6
program? 01:40PM
7
A. Yes. 01:40PM
8
Q. And what publications would those be 01:40PM
9
specifically? 01:41PM
10
A. That is a report I put out through the 01:41PM
11
Hamilton project, which is a think tank within the 01:41PM
12
Brookings think tank. I do not remember when that came 01:41PM
13
out but sometime last calendar year. 01:41PM
14
Q. Okay. And in Paragraph 21, I understand 01:41PM
15
that based on the SHED data, you conclude that UI 01:41PM
16
recipients will have to turn to borrowing or cutting back 01:41PM
17
on necessities or a combination of the two when UI 01:41PM
18
recipients are cut off from their benefits; is that 01:41PM
19
correct? 01:41PM
20
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates the 01:41PM
21
report. 01:41PM
22
A. Can you repeat the question? 01:41PM
23
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. So in Paragraph 21, 01:41PM
24
it is my understanding in the last sentence that you 01:41PM
25
conclude that UI benefit recipients will have to turn to 01:42PM
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borrowing or cutting back on necessities or a combination 01:42PM
2
of the two when UI recipients are cut off from their 01:42PM
3
benefits; is that accurate? 01:42PM
4
A. So the way that I would frame what I'm 01:42PM
5
saying in this sentence is that because recipients are 01:42PM
6
going to have a hard time covering the loss of UI 01:42PM
7
benefits using their own savings, they're going to turn 01:42PM
8
to other measures. 01:42PM
9
But I just want to be clear I'm not saying 01:42PM
10
every single person will do this. I'm just saying that 01:42PM
11
this is the most common response among UI recipients; 01:42PM
12
that they're going to turn to some other way to finance 01:42PM
13
their spending, like borrowing or cutting back on 01:42PM
14
necessities or some combination. 01:42PM
15
Q. Okay. So it's not all UI benefits 01:43PM
16
recipients. It is the most common response; is that 01:43PM
17
accurate? 01:43PM
18
A. Yes. 01:43PM
19
Q. And what do you mean by cut off from their 01:43PM
20
benefits? 01:43PM
21
A. I mean when they are denied access to 01:43PM
22
their UI benefits or some of their UI benefits by the 01:43PM
23
bank. 01:43PM
24
Q. So even if it is a loss of $5 for a week, 01:43PM
25
your conclusion would still apply? 01:43PM
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A. Well, my understanding is that the median 01:43PM
2
amount that individuals lost access to was around $900 01:43PM
3
and the median length was almost three months, so that 01:43PM
4
would not be the typical experience of somebody in the 01:43PM
5
class. 01:43PM
6
Q. And so if you're referring to the median 01:43PM
7
length, you're not talking about a permanent loss to UI 01:44PM
8
benefits. You're talking about a temporary period of 01:44PM
9
time; is that accurate? 01:44PM
10
A. Yes. 01:44PM
11
Q. And that is just to a portion of their 01:44PM
12
benefits; is that accurate? 01:44PM
13
A. Yes. 01:44PM
14
Q. And your opinion is based on, again, the 01:44PM
15
median data. So you are not offering an opinion as to 01:44PM
16
every UI recipient regardless of the amount that was -- 01:44PM
17
lost access to or the period of time. It is based on the 01:44PM
18
median. 01:44PM
19
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates 01:44PM
20
report. 01:44PM
21
A. So my opinion is characterizing what is 01:44PM
22
the most common response to the loss of UI benefits and 01:44PM
23
this will be the case for the vast majority of people who 01:44PM
24
lost their UI benefits. 01:45PM
25
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Or access to part of it? 01:45PM
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remembering that, I can't say that for sure. 01:46PM
2
Q. (By Ms. Brys) So similarly based on the 01:46PM
3
SHED data, you conclude that 22 percent of UI recipients 01:46PM
4
in 2020 to 2021 reported having unpaid medical debt; is 01:46PM
5
that correct? 01:46PM
6
A. Yes. 01:46PM
7
Q. But it's possible that 78 percent did not 01:46PM
8
have unpaid medical debt. 01:46PM
9
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Calls for 01:47PM
10
speculation. 01:47PM
11
A. While people are receiving UI or have 01:47PM
12
recently received UI before they are denied, yes, that is 01:47PM
13
possible. 01:47PM
14
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. And so in -- I 01:47PM
15
believe it's in Paragraph 30, but you ultimately conclude 01:47PM
16
that credit card borrowing is the most common source of 01:47PM
17
borrowing for people who receive UI; is that correct? 01:47PM
18
A. Yes. 01:47PM
19
Q. Okay. I didn't know if you were reading. 01:47PM
20
A. Oh, sorry. 01:47PM
21
Q. You like to read. I don't want to rush 01:47PM
22
you. 01:47PM
23
A. I appreciate that. 01:47PM
24
Q. Okay. So to -- to come up with this 01:47PM
25
determination, I understand that you looked at two survey 01:48PM
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responses in particular. 01:48PM
2
Would it be accurate to say that you 01:48PM
3
looked at survey responses that said put it on my card 01:48PM
4
and paid it off in full at the next statement and put it 01:48PM
5
on my credit card and pay it off over time. 01:48PM
6
A. Yes. 01:48PM
7
Q. And so part of your claim that credit card 01:48PM
8
borrowing is the most common source of borrowing, is based 01:48PM
9
on individuals who indicated that they would put it on 01:48PM
10
their card and put it -- and pay it off in full at the 01:48PM
11
next statement. 01:48PM
12
A. Part of it is based on that, yes. 01:48PM
13
Q. Did you consider those who use credit card 01:48PM
14
borrowing but pay no interest because they do not carry a 01:48PM
15
balance between credit card statements? 01:48PM
16
A. Yes, I considered that. 01:48PM
17
Q. And how is that reflected in your report? 01:48PM
18
A. That's reflected in the report in this 01:48PM
19
question about what is the most common source of 01:49PM
20
borrowing among people who receive UI. 01:49PM
21
I included in this consideration 01:49PM
22
individuals who responded that they would put the $400 01:49PM
23
expense on their credit card and pay it off in full at 01:49PM
24
the next statement. 01:49PM
25
Q. So for the individuals who put it on their 01:49PM
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credit card and pay it off in full, wouldn't they not be 01:49PM
2
accruing credit card interest because they paid off the 01:49PM
3
balance in full on the next statement? 01:49PM
4
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 01:49PM
5
A. I don't think we can say that for sure 01:49PM
6
based on the data -- or that I can say that for sure 01:49PM
7
based on the data that I've reviewed because the question 01:49PM
8
is asking about the $400 expense and it's not clear if 01:50PM
9
individuals already have debt that they're carrying on 01:50PM
10
their credit card before the $400 expense is occurring. 01:50PM
11
Q. (By Ms. Brys) However, if the individual 01:50PM
12
marked that they would pay it off in full at the next 01:50PM
13
statement, what interest would they be accruing on that 01:50PM
14
$400 debt if they paid it off in full at the next 01:50PM
15
statement? 01:50PM
16
A. In terms of credit card interest, they 01:50PM
17
would not be accruing any. 01:50PM
18
Q. So would it be overestimating the cost of 01:50PM
19
borrowing for that class member? 01:50PM
20
A. What I would say is that while they're not 01:50PM
21
accruing credit card interest on that $400, it doesn't 01:50PM
22
mean that there's no cost associated with putting the 01:50PM
23
$400 on a credit card because the money still has to come 01:50PM
24
from somewhere, either spending that they were planning 01:51PM
25
to do otherwise or their savings. So it may not be 01:51PM
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reflected exactly in the credit card interest rate but 01:51PM
2
there's still a cost associated with that. 01:51PM
3
Q. And have you done studies on the 01:51PM
4
variability of credit card interest rates? 01:51PM
5
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 01:51PM
6
A. What type of studies do you mean? 01:51PM
7
Q. (By Ms. Brys) How would you determine what 01:51PM
8
the appropriate credit card interest rate should be for 01:51PM
9
the individuals about which you opine in your report? 01:51PM
10
A. For that analysis, I used estimates of the 01:51PM
11
credit card interest rate that were existing in the 01:51PM
12
literature and I talk about that in Paragraph 36. 01:51PM
13
Q. And so to the extent you're referencing the 01:52PM
14
literature, are you referencing the particular articles 01:52PM
15
listed in Footnotes 45 and 46? 01:52PM
16
A. Yes. 01:52PM
17
Q. And for purposes of understanding the 01:52PM
18
credit score, do those datasets or sources limit it to 01:52PM
19
California unemployment insurance benefit recipients? 01:52PM
20
A. No, those sources don't. 01:52PM
21
However the data that I'm bringing to 01:52PM
22
those sources do take account of that. So earlier in 01:52PM
23
that same paragraph, I calculated using the SHED data 01:52PM
24
that the median UI recipient in 2020 and 2021 had a good 01:52PM
25
credit score, and then I used these sources to estimate 01:53PM
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regardless of whether people who would use savings are 01:56PM
2
included in the sample. 01:56PM
3
Q. So in the statistical code, why did you 01:56PM
4
exclude individuals who would have used savings? 01:56PM
5
A. Primarily because the focus was to figure 01:57PM
6
out what the most common sources of borrowing are among 01:57PM
7
the sample. And therefore, that group was not important 01:57PM
8
to answering that question. 01:57PM
9
Q. So did you consider individuals who marked 01:57PM
10
using money from a bank loan or line of credit? 01:57PM
11
A. Yes. 01:57PM
12
Q. Okay. So you did not exclude those from 01:57PM
13
your statistical code like you excluded the ones who 01:57PM
14
currently have money in checking, savings or cash? 01:57PM
15
A. Correct. 01:57PM
16
Q. Did you consider individuals who had 01:57PM
17
borrowed from a friend or family member? 01:57PM
18
A. Yes. I considered them and that was much 01:57PM
19
less common than credit card borrowing, which is why I 01:57PM
20
didn't focus on them in the report. 01:57PM
21
Q. Did you consider individuals who marked 01:57PM
22
they would use a payday loan deposit, advance or 01:57PM
23
overdraft? 01:58PM
24
A. Yes. 01:58PM
25
Q. And why did you consider that population? 01:58PM
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A. Well, for this analysis, I was focused on 01:58PM
2
getting a sense about what are the borrowing options 01:58PM
3
available to UI recipients to get a sense about the 01:58PM
4
borrowing costs, and so I wanted to include different 01:58PM
5
types of potential borrowing. 01:58PM
6
Q. Did you include individuals who marked by 01:58PM
7
selling something? 01:58PM
8
A. Yes. 01:58PM
9
Q. And why did you include those by selling 01:58PM
10
something who marked that as their response? 01:58PM
11
A. So for this -- for selling something, 01:58PM
12
while it isn't a source of borrowing exactly, it is a, 01:58PM
13
sort of, financial mechanism that people use to deal with 01:58PM
14
changes in their finances. So it seemed important to -- 01:58PM
15
to think about that as a potential option as well. 01:58PM
16
Q. And so for purposes of understanding your 01:58PM
17
opinion, you are offering the interest rate of 01:59PM
18
20.8 percent as a representative interest rate; is that 01:59PM
19
accurate? 01:59PM
20
A. Yes. 01:59PM
21
Q. And is that 20.8 percent interest rate 01:59PM
22
applicable to all classes? 01:59PM
23
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Confusing. 01:59PM
24
A. All classes or all class members or... 01:59PM
25
Q. (By Ms. Brys) All -- all -- I guess we 01:59PM
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will start with all classes. So all of the claimed denial 01:59PM
2
class, the credit rescission class. Would you say that 01:59PM
3
the 20.8 percent is applicable to all different proposed 01:59PM
4
classes as you understand them? 01:59PM
5
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Confusing. 01:59PM
6
A. I would say it's applicable to the claim 01:59PM
7
denial, the credit rescission and the account freeze 01:59PM
8
classes that we were discussing earlier. 01:59PM
9
Q. (By Ms. Brys) And it is your opinion that 01:59PM
10
the 20.8 percent is representative to all individuals 01:59PM
11
within each of those classes. 02:00PM
12
A. It is my opinion that we can use 02:00PM
13
20.8 percent as a representative number of the cost faced 02:00PM
14
by class members, yes, in all three classes. 02:00PM
15
Q. So to the extent you look at, for instance, 02:00PM
16
the account freeze class, would your opinion change based 02:00PM
17
on the balance of the account at the time it was frozen? 02:00PM
18
A. No, it would not. 02:00PM
19
Q. What if the balance was negative? Would 02:00PM
20
that impact your opinion? 02:00PM
21
A. No, it would not because I'm focused on 02:00PM
22
the most common response and the cost of the most common 02:00PM
23
response. 02:00PM
24
Q. So would your opinion change if 12,000 of 02:00PM
25
the accounts were frozen for less than one week? 02:01PM
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MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Calls for 02:01PM
2
speculation. 02:01PM
3
A. It's hard to say given that I haven't seen 02:01PM
4
any data that suggests that that's the case. 02:01PM
20
Q. (By Ms. Brys) So even for a claim of less 02:02PM
21
than $5, you would still use the credit card borrowing 02:02PM
22
20.8 percent interest rate. 02:02PM
23
A. Yes. Because the 20.8 is representative 02:02PM
24
of the cost faced by the majority of class members. And 02:02PM
25
some will have slightly higher amounts and some will have 02:02PM
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slightly lower amounts but my goal is to provide a 02:02PM
2
representative number that can be applied to -- to all 02:02PM
3
class members. 02:02PM
11
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Is it your opinion that 02:02PM
12
those individuals would have taken on credit card debt? 02:02PM
13
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Calls for 02:02PM
14
speculation. 02:02PM
15
A. Again, my method is not trying to identify 02:02PM
16
which individuals would turn to credit card borrowing but 02:03PM
17
rather that most individuals returned to credit card 02:03PM
18
borrowing or some method that's more expensive than 02:03PM
19
credit card borrowing. 02:03PM
20
Q. (By Ms. Brys) But most is not all; 02:03PM
21
correct? 02:03PM
22
A. Correct. 02:03PM
23
Q. I can turn to more data. 02:03PM
24
So I understand you previously referenced 02:03PM
25
the Pulse data? 02:03PM
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loss of benefits to $5 or if it is a permanent loss 02:11PM
2
because UI benefits have ended, they've expired, your 02:11PM
3
opinions are the same? 02:11PM
4
A. Yes, my opinions are the same. Because 02:11PM
5
part of the value of UI benefits is that they're paid in 02:11PM
6
a timely manner because individuals need the benefits in 02:11PM
7
order to cover their spending needs. And so whether or 02:11PM
8
not it's temporary, my opinions don't change. 02:11PM
9
Q. And the amount that is lost, your opinions 02:11PM
10
don't change; is that -- 02:11PM
11
A. Correct. Uh-hmm. 02:11PM
12
Q. Do you know whether any class 02:11PM
13
representative here turned to expensive methods of 02:11PM
14
borrowing when a portion of their UI benefits were halted? 02:11PM
15
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Outside the 02:11PM
16
scope of the report. 02:11PM
17
A. I have seen information in the expert 02:11PM
18
report of McCrary that indicates that. 02:11PM
19
Q. (By Ms. Brys) And you understand that the 02:12PM
20
class representatives are seeking to represent the class? 02:12PM
21
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Calls for a 02:12PM
22
legal conclusion. 02:12PM
23
A. I do understand that, although it is 02:12PM
24
outside the area of my expertise. 02:12PM
25
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Did you review any materials 02:12PM
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that pertained to the class representatives in connection 02:12PM
2
with your report? 02:12PM
3
A. No, I did not, because I was focused on 02:12PM
4
getting a large and representative sample of UI 02:12PM
5
recipients in California. 02:12PM
6
Q. So for purposes of the record, you didn't 02:12PM
7
review any of their interrogatory responses or written 02:12PM
8
discovery responses. 02:12PM
9
A. Correct. 02:12PM
10
Q. None of the documents that they produced. 02:12PM
11
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Vague. 02:12PM
12
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Did you review the documents 02:12PM
13
that they produced in this case? 02:12PM
14
A. I did not. 02:13PM
15
Q. Did you review any of the deposition 02:13PM
16
testimony that the class representatives provided? 02:13PM
17
A. No. 02:13PM
18
Q. And so you didn't consider any of the class 02:13PM
19
representatives' responses or materials or documents in 02:13PM
20
forming your opinion in this case. 02:13PM
21
A. There's some sort of overall statistics 02:13PM
22
that were included in the expert report of Victor Stango 02:13PM
23
that I reviewed in preparing my report, but I did not 02:13PM
24
review any individual level data on class members, no. 02:13PM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) And so potentially the class 02:14PM
10
representatives, then, as I understand are nonrandom? 02:14PM
11
MS. HUNSICKER: It's outside the scope of 02:14PM
12
expertise. 02:14PM
13
MS. BRYS: I'm trying to understand what 02:14PM
14
she means by, "don't draw conclusions from small samples 02:14PM
15
sizes that are potentially nonrandom." 02:14PM
16
Q. (By Ms. Brys) What -- what do you mean by 02:14PM
17
that? 02:14PM
18
A. I mean that in a statistical sense, the 02:14PM
19
nine individuals might not be a random sample of the 02:14PM
20
entire class. 02:14PM
21
Q. They could just be the best. Okay. 02:14PM
22
So in Paragraph 32 of your report, you 02:14PM
23
stated that the costs of cutting consumption after the 02:15PM
24
loss of UI benefits are likely at least as high as the 02:15PM
25
cost of the preferred option of borrowing; is that 02:15PM
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is not higher if UI recipients are not required to cut 02:18PM
2
their consumption. Would that be accurate? 02:18PM
3
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Confusing. 02:18PM
4
A. Yeah, not higher than -- than what? 02:18PM
5
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Than the consumption they 02:18PM
6
did not have to cut. 02:18PM
7
MS. HUNSICKER: Same objection. 02:18PM
8
A. I think the -- so this sentence, just to 02:18PM
9
clarify, is not saying the value of UI benefits is the 02:18PM
10
same as the consumption that they have to cut. It's that 02:19PM
11
the value of UI benefits is larger, the more recipients 02:19PM
12
need to cut their consumption. 02:19PM
13
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. So for -- turning to, 02:19PM
14
again, the credit card interest rate. You conclude that 02:19PM
15
it is a conservative measure of the opportunity cost of 02:19PM
16
lost funds to the proposed class members. 02:19PM
17
Why do you opine that it is a conservative 02:19PM
18
measure? 02:19PM
19
A. This is for a couple of different reasons. 02:19PM
20
Primarily that the most common responses 02:19PM
21
are going to be borrowing on a credit card or cutting 02:19PM
22
consumption or -- and/or cutting consumption, and that 02:19PM
23
the cost of cutting consumption is going to be much 02:19PM
24
higher than the cost of borrowing because households are 02:19PM
25
reducing consumption on necessities like food and medical 02:20PM
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care. And so this -- applying the credit card interest 02:20PM
2
rate to the full population is a conservative estimate 02:20PM
3
for the many people who have to cut consumption. 02:20PM
4
Q. And then in connection with this opinion, 02:20PM
5
what evidence or data did you rely upon? 02:20PM
6
A. What do you mean "this opinion"? Which 02:20PM
7
opinion? 02:20PM
8
Q. The credit card interest -- the credit 02:20PM
9
interest rate as a conservative measure of the opportunity 02:20PM
10
cost of lost funds. 02:20PM
11
A. For this, I relied on a lot of different 02:20PM
12
things, which is why I'm being a little slow in 02:20PM
13
answering. 02:20PM
14
The literature that I reviewed all shows 02:20PM
15
that people cut consumption when UI benefits are less 02:20PM
16
generous or when UI benefits run out. And the analysis 02:21PM
17
that I did suggests that the most common responses are 02:21PM
18
borrowing on a credit card or some more expensive 02:21PM
19
borrowing or -- I should say the most common responses 02:21PM
20
are borrowing on credit card or cutting consumption, 02:21PM
21
which will be even more expensive. 02:21PM
22
Q. And then you opine in Paragraph 36 that the 02:21PM
23
median recipient had a good credit score. 02:21PM
24
A. Yes. 02:21PM
25
Q. Again, that is using the median to 02:21PM
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Q. Have you identified any data specifically 02:44PM
6
collected from this class? 02:44PM
7
MS. HUNSICKER: Asked and answered. 02:44PM
8
A. No. I've been focused on aggregate 02:44PM
9
representative data rather than individual data on the 02:44PM
10
class. 02:44PM
15
Q. And as I understand, you have not 02:45PM
16
identified any data specifically collected for this credit 02:45PM
17
rescission subclass; is that accurate? 02:45PM
18
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Asked and 02:45PM
19
answered. 02:45PM
20
(Interruption.) 02:45PM
21
MS. BRYS: Off record for a second. 02:45PM
22
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record 2:45 PM. 02:45PM
23
(Recess from 2:45 PM to 2:46 PM) 02:46PM
24
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record 2:46 PM. 02:46PM
25
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Okay. So turning back to 02:46PM
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the question. 02:46PM
2
I understand that you have not identified 02:46PM
3
any data specifically collected for the credit rescission 02:46PM
4
subclass identified in Mr. Regan's Paragraph 65; is that 02:46PM
5
accurate? 02:46PM
6
A. Correct. I was focused on aggregate and 02:46PM
7
representative data rather than on individual data on 02:46PM
8
class members. 02:46PM
21
Q. (By Ms. Brys) And I understand as to your 02:47PM
22
testimony today that you understand and you opine that the 02:47PM
23
aggregate measure or the accurate measure is the median. 02:47PM
24
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates 02:47PM
25
testimony. 02:47PM
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A. What do you mean by "accurate measure"? 02:47PM
2
Q. (By Ms. Brys) You have testified that you 02:47PM
3
have not collected data specifically to any of the classes 02:47PM
4
identified in the population as to those classes 02:47PM
5
themselves; is that accurate? 02:47PM
6
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Confusing. 02:48PM
7
A. I have not identified or I have not 02:48PM
8
analyzed any data on the class members specifically 02:48PM
9
because my assignment was to focus on calculating an 02:48PM
10
interest rate that could be used to measure the aggregate 02:48PM
11
harm to the class. And that by identifying this number 02:48PM
12
that can be representative of the majority of the class, 02:48PM
13
that that can lead to an accurate measure of the 02:48PM
14
aggregate harm. 02:48PM
15
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Have you identified any data 02:48PM
16
that used -- as to the class members that used UI benefits 02:48PM
17
to cover necessary expenses as opposed to luxury or 02:48PM
18
discretionary purchases? 02:48PM
19
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Asked and 02:49PM
20
answered. 02:49PM
21
A. I have not identified any -- any 02:49PM
22
individual-level data of class members because I wanted 02:49PM
23
to use a dataset that was representative of all 02:49PM
24
individuals rather than focusing on just some 02:49PM
25
individual's experiences. 02:49PM
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Q. (By Ms. Brys) Have you identified the 02:49PM
2
median debt carried by the class members' households? 02:49PM
3
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Asked and 02:49PM
4
answered. 02:49PM
5
A. I have not identified that because I 02:49PM
6
wanted to focus on data that is aggregate and 02:49PM
7
representative of the class as a whole rather than 02:49PM
8
individuals. 02:49PM
9
Q. (By Ms. Brys) And so is it your opinion 02:49PM
10
that the median debt carried by a class member household 02:49PM
11
is not representative of the class? 02:49PM
12
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates 02:49PM
13
testimony. 02:49PM
14
A. No, that's not my opinion. 02:49PM
15
My opinion is that that data is not -- 02:49PM
16
well, it's not even my opinion. 02:49PM
17
I focused on data that comes from a large 02:50PM
18
representative dataset given that my understanding is 02:50PM
19
that data does not exist for class members. 02:50PM
20
Q. (By Ms. Brys) Have you asked for that 02:50PM
21
data? 02:50PM
22
A. No. 02:50PM
23
Q. So you don't know if it exists? 02:50PM
24
MS. HUNSICKER: Objection. Misstates 02:50PM
25
testimony. 02:50PM
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think we've looked at this before. 03:02PM
2
A. Uh-hmm. 03:02PM
3
Q. In this one for the expenses, you've 03:02PM
4
included everything from rent and mortgage to credit card 03:02PM
5
bills, utility bills, student loans, et cetera. 03:02PM
6
A. In the sentence about the 21 percent, yes, 03:02PM
7
that's correct. 03:02PM
8
Q. And why did you identify those expenses in 03:02PM
9
particular? 03:02PM
10
A. I believe it was two factors. 03:02PM
11
One is that these are important bills that 03:03PM
12
individuals have to pay regularly and the data focuses on 03:03PM
13
these important bills that individuals have to pay 03:03PM
14
regularly. And so I was following what the data allowed 03:03PM
15
me to speak to. 03:03PM
16
MS. BRYS: What number are we on? 17? 03:03PM
17
MR. SHUCHART: Uh-hmm. 03:03PM
18
Q. (By Ms. Brys) So I would like to introduce 03:03PM
19
as Exhibit 17 a report by Levine dated April 2025. Have 03:03PM
20
you seen this document before? 03:04PM
21
(Exhibit Number 17 was marked.) 03:04PM
22
A. Yes. 03:04PM
23
Q. I take it -- have you seen this document 03:04PM
24
after the date on the first page of this document? 03:04PM
25
A. Yes. 03:04PM
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Q. Did you review this report in connection 03:04PM
2
with preparing for your deposition today? 03:04PM
3
A. Yes. 03:04PM
4
Q. Do you agree with his opinions in that 03:04PM
5
report? 03:04PM
6
A. I probably need more time -- 03:04PM
7
Q. Okay. 03:04PM
8
A. -- to page through every single opinion 03:04PM
9
but in general, yes I do. 03:04PM
10
Q. Oh. 03:04PM
11
A. Okay. 03:05PM
12
Q. Do you agree with the opinions reflected in 03:05PM
13
that report? 03:05PM
14
A. I agree with the opinions reflected, the 03:05PM
15
first and second opinion. The third I was not asked to 03:05PM
16
provide an opinion on so am not going to provide an 03:05PM
17
opinion on his opinion. 03:05PM
18
Q. Okay. So for purposes of making the 03:05PM
19
transcript easy to read, can you tell me which of -- can 03:06PM
20
you advise me which of the opinions, by reading them 03:06PM
21
aloud, that you agree with? 03:06PM
22
A. Sure. 03:06PM
23
The first one is use of a compound 03:06PM
24
interest rate is an appropriate measure of the 03:06PM
25
opportunity cost of delayed UI benefits, and the second 03:06PM
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is the credit card interest rate is a conservative 03:06PM
2
measure of opportunity of the cost of depriving UI 03:06PM
3
recipients of their benefits. 03:06PM
4
Q. And you do not have an opinion on whether 03:06PM
5
or not you agree with his third opinion, which is the 03:06PM
6
minimum wage is an appropriate measure of the value of 03:06PM
7
lost time for the customer service class. 03:06PM
8
A. Correct. 03:06PM
9
Q. And as I understand, that is because you 03:06PM
10
were not asked to form an opinion as to that opinion. 03:06PM
11
A. Correct. 03:06PM
12
Q. So turning to Paragraph 45 of his report, 03:06PM
13
have you reviewed this paragraph before? 03:07PM
14
A. Yes. 03:07PM
15
Q. And in it I believe he opines that class 03:07PM
16
members paid an effective interest rate of at least 03:07PM
17
15.9 percent. Do you see that? 03:07PM
18
A. Yes. 03:07PM
19
Q. Why do you and Levine in this report come 03:07PM
20
to different measurements on the credit card borrowing 03:07PM
21
rate for the class members? 03:07PM
22
A. Well, it's very common when two economists 03:07PM
23
are answering the same research question to review 03:07PM
24
slightly different research or slightly different data 03:07PM
25
and come to slightly different conclusions because of 03:07PM
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A. Okay. 03:31PM
2
Q. The last sentence here says, Taken 03:31PM
3
together, this evidence points to the vast majority of UI 03:31PM
4
recipients in California between 2020 and 2021 being 03:31PM
5
unable to cover their expenses if they suddenly lose 03:31PM
6
access to UI benefits. 03:31PM
7
Do you see that sentence? 03:31PM
8
A. Yes. 03:31PM
9
Q. What do you mean by if they suddenly lose 03:31PM
10
access to benefits -- UI benefits? 03:31PM
11
A. So here I mean if individuals are denied 03:31PM
12
some or all of the UI benefits that they are entitled to 03:31PM
13
without a lot of notice, you know, all of a sudden. 03:31PM
14
Q. And what is your understanding of who 03:31PM
15
suddenly lost access to UI benefits in this case? 03:31PM
16
A. My understanding is that all class members 03:31PM
17
suddenly lost access to UI benefits in this case. 03:31PM
18
Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether 03:32PM
19
members of the account freeze class suddenly lost access 03:32PM
20
to UI benefits? 03:32PM
21
A. So my understanding is that members of the 03:32PM
22
account freeze class in addition to having their account 03:32PM
23
frozen, which meant that they suddenly lost access to 03:32PM
24
their UI benefits because their account was frozen, that 03:32PM
25
they also suddenly lost access to benefits by having a 03:32PM
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claim denied. 03:32PM
2
Q. And is it your understanding that account 03:32PM
3
freeze class members were unable to access the UI funds in 03:32PM
4
their accounts while those accounts were frozen by the 03:32PM
5
bank? 03:32PM
6
A. It's my understanding that account freeze 03:32PM
7
class members were unable to access the funds while the 03:32PM
8
accounts were frozen. 03:32PM
9
There were some small subset of class 03:32PM
10
members who may have been able to access benefits on 03:32PM
11
paper checks but unclear how large that is. And 03:33PM
24
Q. Okay. What is your understanding of which 03:33PM
25
classes your proposed interest rate will be used to 03:33PM
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calculate damages for? 03:33PM
2
A. So it's my understanding that it's the 03:33PM
3
three classes we've been talking about, so the claim 03:33PM
4
denial class, the credit rescission class, the account 03:34PM
5
freeze class, plus the fifth class, which is the EMV chip 03:34PM
6
class. 03:34PM
7
Q. And what's your understanding of how the 03:34PM
8
20.8 percent interest rate that you proposed will be used 03:34PM
9
to calculate damages for the claim denial class? 03:34PM
10
A. The 20.8 percent interest rate that I 03:34PM
11
proposed will be used by multiplying this interest rate 03:34PM
12
by the amount of time the individuals lost access to UI 03:34PM
13
benefits and the principal amount of UI benefits that 03:34PM
14
they lost access to. 03:34PM
15
Q. And what is the principal amount of 03:34PM
16
benefits for a hypothetical claim denial class member? 03:34PM
17
A. It would be the amount of benefits that 03:34PM
18
they were denied because of indicator one. 03:34PM
19
Q. And what's your understanding of how the 03:34PM
20
interest rate you proposed will be used to calculate 03:34PM
21
damages for the credit rescission class? 03:35PM
22
A. The interest rate will be multiplied by 03:35PM
23
the amount of time individuals did not have access to 03:35PM
24
their full UI benefits multiplied by the principal amount 03:35PM
25
of UI benefits they were denied access to. 03:35PM
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Q. And what's your understanding of how the 03:35PM
2
20.8 percent interest rate you proposed will be used to 03:35PM
3
calculate damages for the account freeze class? 03:35PM
4
A. For the account freeze class, the interest 03:35PM
5
rate I propose will be multiplied by the length of time 03:35PM
6
individuals were denied UI benefits and multiplied by the 03:35PM
7
amount of UI benefits that that class was -- or that each 03:35PM
8
member of that class was denied. 03:35PM
9
Q. And what is your understanding of the 03:35PM
10
principal amount of UI benefits that an account freeze 03:35PM
11
class member was denied? 03:35PM
12
A. My understanding is that is the account 03:35PM
13
balance that was frozen in this account freeze class. 03:36PM
14
Q. And what's your understanding of the extent 03:36PM
15
to which account freeze class members might have continued 03:36PM
16
to receive ongoing benefits? 03:36PM
17
A. My understanding is that that was rare, at 03:36PM
18
least until March, and that there's no hard data that 03:36PM
19
suggests that most people were continuing to receive UI 03:36PM
20
benefits. 03:36PM
21
Q. And what is your understanding of how the 03:36PM
22
20.8 percent interest rate will be used to calculate 03:36PM
23
damages related to those delayed benefit payments? 03:36PM
24
A. Again, it will be multiplied by the length 03:36PM
25
of time individuals were denied access to UI benefits and 03:36PM
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the principal amount that they were denied. 03:36PM
2
Q. And the principal amount in this case for 03:36PM
3
the account freeze class related to their denied -- 03:36PM
4
delayed benefit payments would be what? 03:36PM
5
A. The amount of benefits that they were 03:37PM
6
denied access to. 03:37PM
7
Q. And is it your understanding that those 03:37PM
8
ongoing benefits were received right away? 03:37PM
9
A. No, it's not my understanding. 03:37PM
10
Q. What is your understanding of when they 03:37PM
11
were received, if at all? 03:37PM
12
A. It's my understanding that there was a 03:37PM
13
delay, but I don't have a good sense about the exact 03:37PM
14
length of that delay. 03:37PM
15
Q. Okay. Can you go to Paragraph 10(F) of 03:37PM
16
your report, please. 03:37PM
17
Your opinion here says, In my opinion, the 03:37PM
18
average credit card interest rate of 20.8 percent is an 03:37PM
19
appropriate figure to use to calculate the cost to class 03:37PM
20
members resulting from denial of access to their 03:37PM
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principal claim amounts and frozen account balances. 03:37PM
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Can you explain what you mean by that, 03:37PM
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please? 03:37PM
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A. Yes. 03:37PM
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So in my report, I review research and 03:38PM
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Page 50 of 52
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conduct my own analysis to come up with the 20.8 credit 03:38PM
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card interest rate as appropriate, if anything, 03:38PM
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underestimate of the cost faced by class members. And 03:38PM
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because my report is focused on providing this interest 03:38PM
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rate that will lead to an aggregate damages calculation, 03:38PM
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the important thing is that the 20.8 percent is 03:38PM
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representative of a large -- large number of class 03:38PM
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members, and so there might be some class members that 03:38PM
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have slightly lower interest rates that they face or 03:38PM
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slightly higher interest rates that they face. But when 03:38PM
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applying this average measure to the entire class and 03:38PM
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aggregating up, it will be just as good as taking those 03:38PM
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slightly lower or slightly higher and aggregating all of 03:38PM
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those up. It will be -- it will lead to the same 03:39PM
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estimate. 03:39PM
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Q. When you say "just as good," what do you 03:39PM
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mean by that? 03:39PM
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A. I mean it will lead to the same estimate 03:39PM
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of the aggregate damages. 03:39PM
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Q. Okay. Are all -- are all proposed class 03:39PM
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members individuals in California who received UI benefits 03:39PM
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in 2020 or 2021? 03:39PM
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A. Yes. All proposed class members are UI 03:39PM
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recipients in California who received benefits during 03:39PM
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2020 or 2021, which is why my analysis of the SIPP data 03:39PM
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CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER
I, DEANNA BAYSINGER, a Registered Professional
Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of
Colorado, commissioned to administer oaths, do hereby
certify that previous to the commencement of the
examination, the witness was duly sworn by me to testify
the truth in relation to matters in controversy between
the said parties; that the said deposition was taken in
stenotype by me at the time and place aforesaid and was
thereafter reduced to typewritten form by me; and that
the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of my
stenotype notes thereof.
That I am not an attorney nor counsel nor in
any way connected with any attorney or counsel for any of
the parties to said action nor otherwise interested in the
outcome of this action.
My commission expires:
November 8, 2026.
DEANNA BAYSINGER
Registered Professional Reporter
Notary Public, State of Colorado
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