Court filing
Transcript of Jury Selection as to Casey David Crowther held on 03/22/21 — USA v. Crowther (Dkt. 202, M.D. Fla. No. 2:20-mj-01094, docketed in No. 2:20-cr-00114)
Filed January 13, 2022 in USA v. Crowther; one of 318 filings from this case.
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2022-01-13 |
U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida · No. 2:20-cr-00114 · Doc. 202 · 2022-01-13 · Docket on CourtListener
Full text
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
FORT MYERS DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Fort Myers, Florida
)
) Case 2:20-CR-114-FtM-66MRM
Plaintiff )
) Monday, March 22, 2021
vs. )
) 9:37 a.m. to 6:06 p.m.
CASEY DAVID CROWTHER, )
) Courtroom 5D
Defendant )
_______________________________)
TRANSCRIPT OF JURY SELECTION
HELD BEFORE THE HONORABLE JOHN E. STEELE,
United States District Court Judge
Official Court Reporter:
Jeffrey G. Thomas, RPR, CRR
2110 First Street, Suite 2-194
Fort Myers, FL 33901
Telephone: (239) 461-2033
(Proceedings reported by Stenotype; Transcript produced by
computer-aided transcription.)
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A P P E A R A N C E S
COUNSEL FOR GOVERNMENT:
United States Attorney's Office
Middle District of Florida
United States Courthouse
2110 First Street
Room 3-137
Fort Myers, FL 33901
(239)461-2200
BY: TRENT REICHLING, ESQ.
MICHAEL V. LEEMAN, ESQ.
COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT:
FisherBroyles LLP
2390 Tamiami Trail North
Suite 100
Naples, FL 34103
BY: NICOLE HUGHES WAID, ESQ
BRIAN E. DICKERSON, ESQ.
* * *
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I N D E X
March 22, 2022 Vol. Page
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5
Preliminary Discussions
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5
Preliminary Instructions to the Jury
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7
Jurors Provide Personal Information
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Introduction of Counsel
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Voir Dire by the Court
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Sidebar Conference
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Voir Dire by Mr. Leeman
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Voir Dire by the Court
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Voir Dire by Mr. Dickerson
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Cause Challenges
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Peremptory Challenges
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Stricken Jurors Excused
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Preliminary Instructions to the Jury
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Jurors Provide Personal Information
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Introduction of Counsel
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Voir Dire by the Court
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Voir Dire by Mr. Leeman
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Voir Dire by Mr. Dickerson
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Sidebar Conference
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Cause Challenges
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Peremptory Challenges
(Index Continues on Following Page)
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I N D E X
(Continued From Previous Page)
Vol. Page
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Cause Challenge
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Discussion Re Schedule
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Voir Dire by the Court
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Excused Jurors Dismissed
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Jurors Provide Personal Information
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Counsel Introduced
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Voir Dire by the Court
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Voir Dire by Mr. Leeman
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Voir Dire by Mr. Dickerson
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Cause Challenges
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Peremptory Challenges
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Excused Jurors Dismissed
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Certificate of Court Reporter
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PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTIONS TO THE JURY
* * * P R O C E E D I N G S * * *
- - -
THE COURT: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. If
you wish, you may take off either your shield or your mask,
whatever's comfortable. I'll put mine back on after we finish.
My name is John Steele. I'm a United States District
Court Judge here in the Middle District of Florida. On behalf
of all the judges, I'd like to welcome you here this morning
for jury selection of a criminal case. I do realize that some
of you would rather be someplace else besides federal court,
and I do appreciate your presence here.
As I said, this morning we'll be selecting a jury to
try a criminal case. What I'm going to do is, first of all,
tell you what we're going to do, then we'll start going it.
We have 16 of you in the jury box. The remainder of
your number are still in the jury assembly room. I'm told they
can see me and hear me, and they think they're safe; but, based
upon past experience, later on this morning they may well find
themselves in your position, so I'd ask that they pay attention
to the questions as well.
What I'm going to do in a moment is start by having
each of you introduce yourself by reading the information --
you should have a sheet of paper, I hope -- so that the lawyers
can find out a little bit about yourself. When we've finished
those introductions, I'm going to ask some questions aimed at
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PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTIONS TO THE JURY
determining your qualification to sit on this particular case.
We'll try not to get personal, but there are some questions we
just have to ask. There may be some reason why this isn't the
case for you. You may know some of the people, you may know
some of the events. In any event, I'll ask a series of
questions.
When I finish, I allow the lawyers to ask brief
follow-up questions. When they finish, the process is the
lawyers are allowed to excuse a certain number of you for no
reason. If that happens, don't take it personally. That's
just the way the process is. We would normally do it at
sidebar, as they say; but, given the COVID situations, we don't
do that anymore. But we do have headsets that the lawyers and
I will wear, we turn on white noise, the idea being that you
not hear our conversations as we go through the jury selection
process, but you remain there so the lawyers can see who it is
and connect the face with the name.
When we go through that process, after the first
round, if we don't have enough jurors we'll refill the jury box
and go through the process all over again until we receive
enough jurors that are seated.
After we select the jury, we'll begin with opening
statements by counsel, if they choose to give one, then the
taking of the testimony.
In terms of the length of trial, the parties are
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JURORS PROVIDE PERSONAL INFORMATION
hoping to finish by the end of the week, but we're not sure.
So, for planning purposes, you should plan being here for a
couple days next week. If that doesn't happen, it's always
easier to tell jurors to go home early rather than stay longer.
So while we're hoping the end of the week, basically Monday or
Tuesday may be possible. So, in terms of planning, that's what
you should consider.
Now, as I say, the first thing I'd like to do is have
you introduce yourselves to us, and then I'm going to have the
parties introduce themselves to you, and then we'll proceed
that way. So we're going to proceed with Juror Number 1, which
is Mr., is it Kamath?
JUROR KAMATH: Yup.
THE COURT: And if you would give us the information
on that sheet, I would appreciate it.
JUROR KAMATH: My name is Narasimha Kamath. I reside
in Naples. I have lived for 16 years in Naples, and I have
lived for 20 years in Florida. My occupation is I'm a software
developer.
I'm married. My wife is also a software developer.
I have one child. He's ten years old.
I have a bachelor of engineering degree. I have not
had military service, no previous court experience, and no
previous jury service.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
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JURORS PROVIDE PERSONAL INFORMATION
Mr. Day?
JUROR DAY: Yes. My name is Norman Day. I'm a
resident of Naples, and have been for 17 years. I'm retired.
Married for -- and still married, 53 years.
My wife and I have two boys. One is a school
principal, and the other has taken over our family business.
I was not in the military. And my occupation prior
to retiring was a landscape contractor and commercial building
construction.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
JUROR DAY: I have had three other services on the
jury. One . . . one was a criminal trial --
THE COURT: Hang on a second, Mr. Day.
JUROR DAY: Two of them were civil.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, one criminal?
JUROR DAY: One criminal and two civil, and we came
to a verdict on all of them.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ms., is it Codol?
JUROR CODOL: My name is Cynthia Codol. I live in
Fort Myers. I've lived here for 20 years, I've been in Florida
for over 40. I'm retired, but I was an accountant.
I'm married. My husband is also retired. He was a
software developer. Between the two of us, we have five
children, ages 26, 28, 30, 34, and 36. Their professions are
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JURORS PROVIDE PERSONAL INFORMATION
bartender, college student, bar manager, software development,
software sales, and yoga instructor.
I have a bachelor in accounting. No military
service. No previous court experience. That's it.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Ms., is it Freymoyer.
JUROR FREYMOYER: Freymoyer.
THE COURT: Say that again?
JUROR FREYMOYER: Freymoyer. I'm Jeanne Freymoyer.
I live in Fort Myers. I've been here for . . . 17 years --
going on 17 years. I am an elementary school teacher for
Lee County.
I am married. My husband is a sales representative
for Pepsi. We have one daughter. She's six years old.
I have a bachelor's degree in education. No previous
military service, no previous court experience, and no previous
jury service.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ms. O'Brien?
JUROR O'BRIEN: My name is Patricia O'Brien. I live
in North Fort Myers. I've lived in Lee County for 22 years. I
have a bookkeeping and accounting degree. My husband works for
CenturyLink. He's been with them for 20 years.
I have three children. One is in the Marine Corps,
the other works for dispatch for 911, and the third one is a
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college student at Liberty University.
I have a bachelor's in bookkeeping and accounting,
and I never have sued or been sued, and I never had any prior
jury service.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ms. Blair?
JUROR BLAIR: My name is Shannon Blair. I live in
Naples. I've lived in Naples for 27 years, and in Florida for
my entire life. I am an insurance agent, and married. My
spouse is disabled by the VA. We have a 16-year-old child.
I have a bachelor's in biology. I have no prior
military service. I have no prior court experience. I served
on one civil jury, but it settled before it went any further.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Ms. Virdinlia?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Correct.
THE COURT: Am I close?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Yes. My name is Karen Virdinlia.
I live in Naples, Florida. I've been there for 12 years. My
husband and I run a Hallmark business. I have two adult
children, 30 and 33. One is a medical assistant, a
neurologist, and the other is a director of first-year students
at Saint Mary's College in California.
I have no military service experience. I have an
associate's degree in elementary education. Never been sued.
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And no jury experience.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr., is Schrock?
JUROR SCHROCK: Yes. My name is Mike Schrock. I'm a
resident of Naples. I've lived there for about five years, and
also lived in Florida for about the same period of time.
My occupation, I'm retired from my primary job, which
was I was a president and COO of Pentair Corporation, a public
company, headquartered in Minneapolis. Currently, I work on
several public company boards. I'm a director, chairman of the
board of Adcor Corporation, and I'm on one private company
board, and I also work with Oak Hill Capital Partners. I'm a
tenured consultant to them.
Let's see. I am married. My wife was a school
administrator.
I have two children. My daughter is a naval officer,
age 25. My son is a student at the University of Miami.
Level of education is a master's degree in business.
I have not had previous military service, and I have no court
experience previously, nor have I served on a jury.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Kelley?
JUROR KELLEY: My name is Anthony Kelley. I've lived
in Marco Island for the last three years, in Florida for the
last three years. I'm a golf professional. I am recently a
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widower. We did not have any children. I have a two-year
college degree. I have not served in the military. I have
never been sued, and I have served on a grand jury in
Massachusetts.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Combs?
JUROR COMBS: My name is Lloyd Combs. I'm a resident
of North Fort Myers. I've been here approximately eight years,
lived in Florida approximately the same. I am currently a
public safety lead for Lee health, retired policeman from the
Metropolitan Police Department, Washington, D.C.
Married. Spouse's occupation is real estate. We
have three children: 37, he has a garage in Pine Island; 30,
he's a writer in Martin County; and 26, he's a manager for a
country club.
I've got about three years of college, and ten-year
military veteran. Army. Lots of court experience. As a
witness.
THE COURT: I didn't understand if you were currently
retired or just have been retired?
JUROR COMBS: Retired from the police department,
currently working as a public safety lead for Lee Health.
THE COURT: Okay. And you've testified, you said, in
a number of criminal cases, I presume?
JUROR COMBS: Yes, sir.
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THE COURT: Was that based on your past occupation?
JUROR COMBS: Yes. Been many years.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ms. Guzman?
JUROR GUZMAN: My name is Elizabeth Guzman. I've
lived in Cape Coral for 22 years. In Florida I have been for
53 years. My husband and I own a locksmith business. We are
married. We have three children: 24, 22, and 26. One of them
works with us as a locksmith, my daughter is a photographer,
and my son works with AT & T.
I'm a high school graduate, and I don't have no
previous military or witness or previous jury.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. The Worthington?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: My name is Robert Worthington. I
live in Naples. Been in Naples for nine years, State of
Florida for nine years. Retired police officer, 22 years
experience. Previously worked for the County of Collier, heavy
equipment operator.
I'm currently married. My wife is a nurse at Collier
Community Hospital. Two children, 33 and 31. My daughter is
an optician, my son is a superintendent for the City of Naples.
I have a degree in criminal science. No military
history. Lots of witness testimony, criminal trials. And no
previous jury service.
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THE COURT: All right. Thank you. And I assume your
testimony came in the job that you're retired from currently?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: Yes.
THE COURT: How long have you been retired?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: Ten years.
THE COURT: Ten years? Thank you.
Mr. Perry?
JUROR PERRY: My name is John Perry. I live in the
city here. Lived here three years, and three years in Florida.
I'm retired from the U.S. Army. And I have two children that
left home shortly after high school, and I haven't seen them
since. I have an associate's in business science. I served in
the army for 20 years and retired. I have served in the
Monterey as a juror on four occasions.
THE COURT: Have you ever appeared as a witness in
court?
JUROR PERRY: No.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Miss Payne?
JUROR PAYNE: Yes. Hi. My name is Rica Payne. I've
lived in the State of Florida for all my life, 41 years. My
occupation is I'm a United States postal carrier. I'm a mail
carrier in Cape Coral. My husband, I'm married, he's also a
postal carrier in the cape as well.
We have one child together, she's two, and I have two
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previous kids from a previous marriage. Nineteen, she attends
Delaware State University. And I have a 13-year-old from a
previous marriage, he goes to -- he's in middle school.
My level of education is high school. Never been in
the military. I have been a plaintiff and a defendant. In a
divorce. And I never been on any jury duty. Or in jury.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Mr. Negron?
JUROR NEGRON: I apologize to the Court. I can't
read this, but I'll try to do. My name is Carlos Negron. I
lived in Cape Coral for 14 years. I'm a widow. I live with my
daughter. I worked in Fort Myers. I do AC. And I have five
children.
THE COURT: Have you ever been a witness in court?
JUROR NEGRON: No, sir.
THE COURT: Have you ever served on a jury before?
JUROR NEGRON: Yeah, in Detroit.
THE COURT: Was it a civil or criminal case?
JUROR NEGRON: Yes, civil.
THE COURT: I don't want to know the verdict, but did
the jury reach a verdict?
JUROR NEGRON: Yes.
THE COURT: And do you have trouble reading that
form?
JUROR NEGRON: Yes. I can't. My English, I can't
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INTRODUCTION OF COUNSEL
read that well.
THE COURT: Can you read any English, or just not
really?
JUROR NEGRON: Just a couple words.
THE COURT: Couple words. Thank you.
Ms. DiFazzio?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: My name is Pam DiFazzio. I live in
Cape Coral. I have lived in Florida and Cape Coral for
20 years. I'm retired. I was a . . . receptionist and a
dental assistant.
I'm married, and my husband is retired. He used to
work for a phone company. And we have no children.
Never had any military service, and I've never had
any court experience, and I've never had any jury service.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, the case, as I've said, is a
criminal case we're about to try. The case is the United
States of America versus Casey David Crowther. I'm going to
ask the attorneys to introduce themselves and anyone seated at
counsel table; and, when they've finished, my question to you
will be whether you know any of the people who have been
introduced.
Mr. Reichling?
MR. REICHLING: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
My name is Trent Reichling. I'm an Assistant United States
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
Attorney here in the Fort Myers Division of the United States
Attorney's Office in the Middle District of Florida. Seated to
my left, with this gray beard, is Michael Leeman. He's also an
Assistant United States Attorney. He also represents the
United States. Also seated with me at counsel's table is Brian
Kirby. He's a United States Secret Service Agent.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Miss Waid?
MS. WAID: Good morning. My name is Nicole Waid, and
I represent Casey David Crowther. Seated next to me is my
partner, Brian Dickerson. Next to Mr. Crowther is Julie Bryan,
who is our legal assistant. And next to her is Julie
Camponini, who is also working with the defense.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, do any of you believe you know
any of the people who have been introduced?
And we'll need to get some rules. If the answer is
no, I need to see some heads make shaking. If the answer is
yes, I need to see hands go up. We have one hand that I see.
Mr. Kamath?
JUROR KAMATH: Yes. I have heard and have seen him
on some news channels, but I don't remember in what context.
THE COURT: Okay. We may come back to that, but
that's fine for now.
Anyone else know any of the individuals? No one?
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
All right.
Now, at this point I'm going to summarize the second
superseding indictment in the case, and my follow-up question
will be whether you know anything about the case before you
came to court today.
The charging document is the second superseding
indictment. I'll probably just call it the indictment after a
certain point in time.
You need to understand that the indictment simply
sets forth the charges brought by the government. The
indictment does not create any presumption of guilt. Every
defendant is presumed -- I'm sorry. Is presumed to be
innocent. The indictment is just the legal process that gets
the case into court and finally in front of the jury.
In this case, as I said, there's a second superseding
indictment that alleges that Casey David Crowther made false
and fraudulent representations to Sanibel Captiva Community
Bank, a federally insured bank, in order to secure an
approximately $2.1 million Paycheck Protection Program loan for
his company, Target Roofing and Sheet Metal, Inc. Once the
loan was obtained, the defendant is alleged to have used the
proceeds for purposes the government claims to be
impermissible, including the purchase of a boat, and to pay off
debt owed to a former business associate.
The defense claims that the defendant entered into a
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
loan with Sanibel Captiva Bank on behalf of his company, Target
Roofing and Sheet Metal, Inc. pursuant to a temporary loan
guaranty program.
The defense claims that the loan documents, the CARES
Act, and the applicable PPP rules and guidelines state that the
interest and principal on the loan were eligible for
forgiveness if, during the designated period of time, Target
Roofing used a certain portion of the loan proceeds towards
payroll expenses and other forgivable expense. The defense
claims that the loan was obtained to pay and maintain
employees, and the funds were utilized for that purpose.
Do any of the prospective jurors know anything about
the case prior to coming to court today? Okay. I see a couple
hands. Let's start in the first row, Mr. Kamath,
without . . . .
JUROR KAMATH: Yeah, I heard about him on the news.
I mean I watched it on the news.
THE COURT: On the news? All right.
Miss Codol? I'm sorry. Mr. Day.
JUROR DAY: I've just seen some things on the news,
but I haven't read anything about it.
THE COURT: Okay.
And Miss Codol?
JUROR CODOL: Just a brief conversation on the
courthouse steps, because the WINK car was there, with some
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other people that were standing on the sidewalk as well.
THE COURT: Okay. A conversation with the other
people, or with the news people?
JUROR CODOL: With the other people.
THE COURT: Anyone else in the front row?
Second row? Ms. Blair.
JUROR BLAIR: What I've seen on the news, and I also
believe that I saw some real estate transactions, as well, that
the timing was a little suspect, but that is all hearsay.
THE COURT: Okay.
Mr. Schrock?
JUROR SCHROCK: Similar conversation, just
speculating about what the case might be about, and mentioned
this particular case. And then also news coverage that
reminded me of the news coverage that I had seen on the news.
THE COURT: Okay.
And Mr. Kelley?
JUROR KELLEY: Yes; just what I've seen on the news.
THE COURT: And, in the back row, let me start from
the other end, Mr. Perry.
JUROR PERRY: I also saw it on the news and read the
newspaper. I don't remember anything particular, and I didn't
form any opinion.
THE COURT: Okay. All right.
And, back row, anyone else? Ms. DiFazzio?
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JUROR DiFAZZIO: I just heard it on the news
yesterday.
THE COURT: Okay.
Other than what you may have seen on news or read in
the newspaper, does anyone have any personal knowledge about
any of the facts that have been summarized so far, the nature
of the case? No? All right.
I'm going to read a list of names of people who may
be witnesses in the case, and when I finish, my question will
be whether you think you know any of these people.
Timothy Hart, Jr., Brian Peterson, Diane Knott,
William Hernandez, Lana Hollier, Kristen DiIorio, Kyle DeCicco,
D E C I C C O, Colleen Clark, Evelyn Portinari, Steven Atkins,
Heather Mangus, Jennifer Briggs, Karen Ferranti, Dave Sims,
Mark Lively, Gina Noonan, Ryan Bradley, John Miller, Tracy
Wetter, Mike Hartman, Lee Lefkowitz, Brian Kirby, Thomas Doman,
Mary Beth Cvengros, Scott Ewin, Victoria Guerrero, Jessica
Hollobaugh, Glen Holt, Brad North, Nairobi Owens, Kenneth
Segura, Peter Zielinski.
Anyone think those names ring a bell, or that you may
know anyone? No one?
Now, normally we'll start the day at 9:00 o'clock,
work till noon, take one 15-minute recess midmorning, take an
hour for lunch, come back, work till 5:00, with another
midmorning recess. So that's going to be your typical day over
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the course of the next week or so.
Does anyone have any physical impairment that would
need to be accommodated with that type of a schedule? I saw
Mr. Schrock's hand first.
JUROR SCHROCK: It's just my knees. I need stretch
my knees about every 45 minutes. It's called Patellofemoral
knee syndrome. If I could sit on an end seat, that would be
fine; or I could stand up, or anyplace where I could stretch my
knees.
THE COURT: We can work that out.
Mr. Kamath?
JUROR KAMATH: I need frequent bathroom breaks.
THE COURT: When you say frequent?
JUROR KAMATH: Maybe once every hour.
THE COURT: Okay.
Anyone else? Mr. Perry?
JUROR PERRY: I'm 76 and have a prostate problem. I
don't think I can sit for three hours.
THE COURT: Okay.
Yes. Mr. Negron.
JUROR NEGRON: I have been taking my medicine for the
pain and everything. I didn't take it today, because I don't
know if I can . . . .
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NEGRON: Because it makes me drowsy.
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THE COURT: Probably not a good idea.
JUROR NEGRON: That's why I didn't take it.
THE COURT: All right. Anyone else?
Do any of the 16 of you know one another before
coming to the Court today? No one? All right.
Have any of you the ever studied law? No one? Okay.
JUROR VIRDINLIA: I haven't undertaken it as a
career. I have had a number of law courses.
THE COURT: In a law school or in a college?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: College.
THE COURT: Business law kind of things?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Yes. Business law.
THE COURT: And Mr. Worthington?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: Other than I got a degree in
criminal science.
THE COURT: So you took some law courses in that
regard?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Anyone else?
Have you or any members of your family ever worked
for the United States Government that you have not mentioned
already?
Ms. Payne.
JUROR PAYNE: My husband was in the military.
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THE COURT: Your husband was in the military. And
you work in the post office, as your husband does now.
JUROR PAYNE: We both work for the post office, yes.
THE COURT: Anyone else?
Ms. Virdinlia?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: I don't know if it counts. My son
did an internship with the U.S. Marshals.
THE COURT: Okay. Any idea how long ago that was.
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Oh, about ten . . . nine or
ten years ago.
THE COURT: All right. I was really focusing more on
your past employment with the government. Anyone? All right.
Does anyone presently have any litigation pending
with or against the United States Government? No one? Has
anyone ever had litigation with or against the United States
Government? Again, no one.
JUROR SCHROCK: You mean personally?
THE COURT: Yes.
JUROR SCHROCK: No.
THE COURT: You piqued my interest. Go ahead.
JUROR SCHROCK: Because of some of the businesses I
have been involved in have had issues with, you know, trade
compliance or something like that, so I've been involved in
that, but I've not been involved in a personal level. I've
been on the board of these companies as we worked our way
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through them.
THE COURT: Okay.
Does anyone anticipate litigation with or against the
United States Government? No one? All right.
Do any of you have any matter currently pending in
front of the United States Attorney's Office? Of any kind. No
one?
Do any of you have family members or close personal
friends in law enforcement, or have you been in law enforcement
in a previous career that you haven't told us about already?
And Mr. Schrock.
JUROR SCHROCK: Family members. And my dad was an MP
at the time. My uncle was a state policeman. My grandfather
was a Chicago City Policeman. And my nephew is -- my
brother-in-law was a Chicago policeman, my nephew was a
Valparaiso, Indiana, policeman.
THE COURT: And Ms. O'Brien?
JUROR O'BRIEN: My daughter was in dispatch and
stuff, and a CO, but for a prison. But that's not in the State
of Florida. Doesn't matter.
THE COURT: Okay. I wasn't limiting it to the State
of Florida.
JUROR O'BRIEN: Oh, okay. Yeah.
THE COURT: So your daughter does what again?
JUROR O'BRIEN: She worked for a Virginia state
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prison, and now she's going to be Fairfax County 911 dispatch.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Ms. Payne?
JUROR PAYNE: My cousin was previously the chief of
police.
THE COURT: Here in Fort Myers?
JUROR PAYNE: Here in Fort Myers.
THE COURT: Anyone else, law enforcement background?
All right.
Do any of you have strong feelings about law
enforcement, it could be either positive or negative, it
doesn't matter, that makes it difficult for you to sit and
judge the credibility of law enforcement officers fairly, just
in the same way you would any other witness? Anyone have
strong feelings?
Ms. Payne?
JUROR PAYNE: Yes. Personally, I had a domestic
issue that was put upon me from my previous husband, and
I . . . some things weren't handled before I was arrested, but
I was acquitted, like I didn't get in trouble because they
realized it was a lie, but it took months and months for them
to realize it was a lie. But I guess, if it was addressed
different before I was arrested, they would have seen that he
was telling a lie. But it's done and over with, but I think it
should have been handled a little bit differently.
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THE COURT: All right. If you're selected on a jury,
can you judge the credibility of all witnesses by the same
standard that the Court gives you, whether they're law
enforcement officers or civilians?
JUROR PAYNE: Yes. I respect everybody because I
want to be respected.
THE COURT: Okay.
Anyone else, strong feelings, pro or con, with regard
to testimony by law enforcement officers? No one?
Does anyone have a personal belief that would make it
difficult for you to sit in judgment of another person? After
all, that's what a jury is going to do, you're going to reach a
verdict in the case. Anyone have any issues doing that? No
one? Let me see those heads shake if the answer is no. Okay.
Now, as background for my next question, I'm going to
effectively give a jury instruction; and then my question will
be can you follow the instruction if you're selected on this
jury.
If you are selected to serve on the case, your
verdict will decide the disputed issues of fact. Under our
system of procedure, you are the sole judges of the facts. If,
at any time, I should make any comment regarding the facts, you
should disregard it.
The Court will decide the questions of law that arise
during the trial; and, before you retire to deliberate, the
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
Court will instruct you on the law that you are to follow in
reaching your verdict. Regardless of any opinion you may have
as to what the law should be, it would be a violation of your
sworn duty to base a verdict on any view of the law other than
that which is given to you by the Court. It would also be a
violation of your sworn duty to base a verdict upon anything
other than the evidence or the lack of evidence in the case.
In a criminal case such as this, the entire burden of
proof is upon the government, from the beginning to the end of
the trial, and this burden never shifts from the government to
the defendant. A defendant in any criminal case is presumed to
be innocent until the government, by competent evidence, has
shown his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The presumption of
innocence remains with a defendant as to each and every
material allegation in the indictment until it has been met and
overcome by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
A defendant has a constitutional right not to
testify. No juror is allowed to hold this against the
defendant, or to draw any adverse inference if the defendant
exercises his constitutional right not to testify.
You, as jurors, will be required to calmly, fairly,
and dispassionately consider all the evidence in the case, and
from the evidence, and from the law which the Court will give
you, arrive at your verdicts. You should not be swayed in the
performance of your duty by prejudice, sympathy, or any other
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sentiment.
Now, with that background, my question is can all of
you follow that instruction if you're called to serve as a
juror in this case? I see heads nodding or not.
Let me do it this way. Is there anyone who cannot
follow that instruction if you're called as a juror in this
case? No hands? All right.
Can I see, by a show of hands, if anyone has been
employed by a bank in the past?
Ms., let me get my sheet. Ms. O'Brien? Tell me
about your employment with the bank.
JUROR O'BRIEN: Oh, I was a teller at SunTrust.
THE COURT: Okay. A while ago?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yeah, it's been like . . . . Early
2000s. I don't even remember when. It's been a long time ago.
THE COURT: In the range of 20 years ago?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yeah. Within the past 20 years.
THE COURT: Okay.
Anyone else, previous employment with a bank? No
one? All right.
Have any of you ever been employed with the United
States agency the Small Business Administration? No one?
Have of any you ever obtained or been attempted to
obtain a loan either from the SBA or guaranteed by the SBA? No
one?
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The Small Business Administration has what they call
the Paycheck Protection Program. I think you'll hear the
testimony shorten that to PPP. Have any of you ever had any
involvement in the Paycheck Protection Program? No one?
Have any of you ever attempted to obtain a loan that
was guaranteed, or backed, by the SBA, for anything? No one?
Do any of you have any personal connection with the
Sanibel Captiva Community Bank? Again, no one.
Same question with regard to Target Roofing and Sheet
Metal Company. Do any of you have any connection, or have you
done business with that entity? No one?
There's also an entity called Crowther Roofing
Company that actually has nothing to do with this case, but
it's a relative of the defendant. So my question is if any of
you have had any business, at all, with Crowther Roofing
Company.
Ms. Blair?
JUROR BLAIR: The insurance agency I work for
represents Target Roofing and Sheet Metal.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? Okay.
And, in the back, Mr. Worthington?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: As one of my prior employments
after refiring from law enforcement, as a maintenance
superintendent, I used Crowther Roofing as our go to
contract -- roofing contractor.
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THE COURT: All right. As I just told you, other
than the name and the family relationship, Crowther Roofing has
nothing do with this case; so, for both of you, is there any
problem or any concern you would have, given your past
connections or dealings with Crowther, to being fair in the
determination in this case?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: No.
THE COURT: No? Either one of you?
Anyone else, business dealings, or any other dealings
with Crowther Roofing?
Do any of you have any past experience as either
accountants, financial planners, auditors, or bookkeepers? I
think some of you have mentioned already, but let's hit it
again if we can. Ms. Codol?
JUROR CODOL: So I was a CPA, so I worked for Coopers
Lybrand for six years. I've been the controller and a CFO for
various construction companies and country clubs. Also tax
accountant.
THE COURT: Okay.
Anyone else? Mr. Perry?
JUROR PERRY: In my background, I was in a lot of
business programming, system analysis --
THE COURT: You're gonna need to say that one more
time for me, please?
JUROR PERRY: With my IT background, I programmed
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businesses, in banking and payroll, that sort of thing.
THE COURT: All right.
Anyone else? Ms. O'Brien.
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yeah. For Collier County, I did
their ARAD, there and a few other places.
THE COURT: All right.
Now, one of the instructions that I'll be giving you
tells you that, during the course of the trial, you can't talk
to one another about the case as it goes along. You have to
wait until it's all over. I'll also tell you that you can't
talk to anyone else about it: Significant other, children,
nobody.
Part of the instruction also is you cannot do any
independent research. You can't get that phone out and start
plugging things in, you can't get on Google, or whatever else
people do these days, and you can't have conversations with
people. You can't be posting something on Facebook, saying
gee, I'm doing something really interesting, or gee, this is
really boring. You can't do that. You can use your device,
but you can't use any devices on anything about the case or
people involved in the case. You will have the best seat in
the house, and all the evidence you need will be coming from
the courtroom.
Every now and then, someone says I don't know if I
can do that. I'm always on my device, and I'm always doing
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SIDEBAR CONFERENCE
stuff.
My question is do we have any of those kind of people
here, or can all of you follow the instructions not to discuss
the case among yourselves, or not to discuss it or allow anyone
else to discuss it in your presence, not to do the research, or
look it up on any device? Anyone going to have any problem
with that instruction? No? Okay.
All right. We're going to try our first experiment.
This is a situation where I want to talk to the lawyers, but I
don't want you to hear. And we're not trying to be rude.
Normally we'd do it at sidebar, but we have these fancy things.
We're going see if they work. The clerk has some white noise
that they're going to put on and, if it's irritating, I'm
sorry. We'll try not do this very often, but it's necessary at
the moment, and so let's see if we can get it to work.
AT SIDEBAR
THE COURT: I can see Mr. Dickerson's lips move. I
couldn't hear him.
MR. DICKERSON: Can you hear?
THE COURT: That's good. And the government can hear
me, too?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Unintelligible).
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THE COURT: All right. The reason I started this, is
to get your input as to how you wish to proceed in regard to
the inquiry. And can you not hear me?
MS. WAID: No.
THE COURT: All right. We'll try it again.
The reason I went to, quote, sidebar, unquote, was to
get your input as to how you want to proceed with regard to the
pretrial publicity. What I was going to do is inquire of those
are jurors that had indicated just not so much what they had
heard or read, but where, and how frequently, and then, you
know, depending on if we have anyone who is an avid follower of
case, decide what to do individually with that person.
I did not intend to elicit specific, you know, what
do you remember, but I do anticipate asking if whatever it is
they can put it aside. So that's, at this point, my plan.
I really wanted to get your input as to your
thoughts, and if you thought anything else either should be
asked or a different procedure.
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, are we going to do these
headsets with them individually?
THE COURT: What I had just described I was going to
do as a group, without the headsets; and then, depending on the
answers, like I said, if we get someone who is an avid
follower, we may want to do the functional equivalent of an
individual voir dire.
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MR. DICKERSON: So I have eight people that have
followed and heard about it. I guess, as long as that first
question is not going to allow the juror to reveal too much to
the other jurors, and possibly poison other jurors, that would
be fine, and then we can move to individual sidebar type
questions.
THE COURT: If we need. At least, that's my hope.
Thoughts from the government?
MR. LEEMAN: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Let's try that and see where
we're at.
IN OPEN COURT
THE COURT: That was fun.
I want to go back to the areas of what you've heard
or read about the case before coming to court today. I don't
want you to tell me what it is that you heard or read, but what
I want you to do is tell me where it was that you got your
information, and how frequently, was it newspaper, or
television news, or -- you know, somebody mentioned a
conversation outside of the courthouse. I don't want you to
tell me what the conversation was, or what the broadcast was,
but some idea of how frequently you heard the information. And
my bottom-line question will be, whatever it was you heard, can
you put it aside, and decide the case based upon the evidence.
First let's try and find out a little bit more about
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SIDEBAR CONFERENCE
what you heard. And, Mr. Kamath, I think you had heard
something or read something.
MR. REICHLING: Yeah. It was all in the TV news.
THE COURT: TV news?
JUROR KAMATH: Um-hum.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have any recollection
as to how many times you recall?
JUROR KAMATH: I think, when the news first broke,
maybe I heard it a few days.
THE COURT: Okay. And did you pay attention to the
other, or not really?
JUROR KAMATH: Not really. I mean, as much as you
pay attention to the news.
THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything that you heard
that you couldn't put out of your head and decide the case
based upon what you hear in court?
JUROR KAMATH: I don't think so.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR KAMATH: But when I came here today, when you
said his name, that's when I remembered the news that I heard.
But I do not remember the context until you read out what was
the . . . .
THE COURT: Okay. And I asked a poorly phrased
question. Let me try it again. Can you put aside whatever you
may have heard in the news, and decide the case based only upon
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what you hear here, in court?
JUROR KAMATH: I think so.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, do you see that -- I can't
tell if you're thinking about it, or, I mean, if you're sure
you can.
JUROR KAMATH: I have to answer the question this
way, I will try my best not to think about what I have heard.
THE COURT: Okay.
On the front row. I'm forgetting now, Mr. Day, you
also heard something?
JUROR DAY: Well, I watch WINK News every day, and I
guess, as often as they would say something I would hear it on
wink news, but I haven't read anything about it or anything.
THE COURT: All right. Did you pay any more
attention to that news story than any others?
JUROR DAY: I wouldn't say so, no. It was just local
news, that's all.
THE COURT: Is there anything about the local news in
this case that you think would make it hard for you to put that
aside and decide the case based upon the evidence?
JUROR DAY: I served in three other trials, and I
think I was very fair and open in any of them; so, no, I don't
think there would be anything.
THE COURT: All right.
Ms. Codol, I think you had a conversation outside the
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courthouse?
JUROR CODOL: Yes.
THE COURT: Anything else besides that?
JUROR CODOL: No.
THE COURT: Was there anything about that
conversation that would make it hard for you to sit fairly,
based upon just the evidence in the case, and not whatever the
conversation was?
JUROR CODOL: No.
THE COURT: And again, that's a poor question on my
part. Can you sit fairly in this case, without regard to
whatever the conversation might have been?
JUROR CODOL: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
Anyone else in the front row? No?
Back row? Mr. Schrock?
JUROR SCHROCK: I was also in this conversation, and
it was a fairly high-level conversation, just about the basics
of the case, pretty much what you said. I have seen it
multiple times on the news, and have discussed the case with --
this PPP discussion is a fairly common discussion among a lot
of the people that I work with and associate with. And so
this -- this case had come up at that time. And so, you know,
we discussed it there. But again, fairly high level.
THE COURT: And when you say a fairly high level, you
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mean not about the case specifically, but about PPP?
JUROR SCHROCK: Well, about both. On PPP, I have a
number of friends who have accepted these loans, and then some
who have not. And there are a lot of opinions that have been
shared about this. And then about the case specifically has
come up as an example of this. But that's where I was
referring to at a fairly high level. It's just, oh, yeah, I
heard about this, and that kind of discussion.
THE COURT: All right. And whatever the
conversations were, and whatever the example was, do you think
you can put that out of your mind and decide this case based
upon the specific evidence that's brought in court?
JUROR SCHROCK: I believe I can, yes.
THE COURT: And, whatever the conversation, do you
feel that you have committed yourself to a certain position
that would make it hard for you to de-commit, so to speak, in
this case, if necessary?
JUROR SCHROCK: I would say, at the time, I reached
an opinion; however, I do believe I could -- there was no
commitment of myself in such a way that I don't feel like I was
making any commitment to anyone, and I do believe that I could
put that aside in favor of evidence.
THE COURT: All right.
And, Ms. Blair, you had raised your hand?
JUROR BLAIR: Yes. Similar to everyone, I had seen
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it on the news when it first broke. I did read from commentary
from the public about other transactions that were not covered
by the news that just seemed a little suspect; but I think that
was back in November or December. But I could put that aside.
I have no commitment either way.
THE COURT: All right. So if the evidence was
different than whatever you may heard or read, you could go
based upon the evidence?
JUROR BLAIR: Absolutely, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
In the second row, anyone else, that I've missed?
Third row? Mr. Perry.
JUROR PERRY: I read an article.
THE COURT: You read an article on a computer and
seeing it on the news?
JUROR PERRY: Yes, both media in this day and age.
THE COURT: Okay. And could you put aside whatever
it is you read? You could do that?
JUROR PERRY: I could.
THE COURT: All right.
And, Miss DiFazzio, I saw your hand up.
JUROR DiFAZZIO: I just heard it on the news too, but
I don't know anything more than what you have reported.
THE COURT: All right. Could you put aside whatever
it is you may have heard and remember, and base a verdict just
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upon the evidence that's presented?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: Yes.
THE COURT: Have I missed anybody in the back row?
I'm sorry. Mr. Worthington.
JUROR WORTHINGTON: I also have read newspaper
articles, editorials, and seen this on the news.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR WORTHINGTON: Quite a bit, from the inception
of it to just as recently as day before yesterday, I believe.
THE COURT: All right. Anything about the news
coverage and your memory of the news coverage that would make
it difficult for you to base a verdict simply upon the evidence
and not what you're hearing or remembering?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: I would say it would probably
make it difficult, just my general . . . .
THE COURT: Okay. I appreciate that.
Anyone else? In terms of knowing something about the
case from media sources or other similar sources? Have we got
everybody? Yes? Okay.
Now, as I said, the Court allows counsel to ask brief
follow-up questions, so we'll start with that process at this
point.
Counsel for the government, Mr. Leeman?
MR. LEEMAN: Good morning, everyone. Thanks for
being here. My name is Michael Leeman. I am a federal
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prosecutor.
I don't have many questions, for a lawyer, but I want
to start with Mr. Kamath, I believe. I hope I'm pronouncing
that correct.
You're a software engineer; is that right, sir? Do
you own your own business?
JUROR KAMATH: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Have you ever -- does -- your wife is
also a software engineer. Does she own her own business?
JUROR KAMATH: (Witness shakes head side to side.)
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Thank you.
Mr. Day, I think I followed along. You're currently
retired, if I'm correct?
JUROR DAY: Correct.
MR. LEEMAN: And I think it sounds like your son,
or -- I didn't write down if you had sons or daughters, but
your family continues your business?
JUROR DAY: Yes. I have two boys. One is an
elementary school principal, and the other one took over the
business when I retired.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. And that's a landscaping and --
JUROR DAY: Landscaping and commercial construction.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Do you know if that business took
a PPP loan, Paycheck Protection Program loan?
JUROR DAY: No.
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MR. LEEMAN: All right.
Miss Codol, let me just ask you this. I've only
heard the name once in my life, and it's a guy that sits right
next door to me, three stories down, and I just want to make
sure you're not related to him in any way, Kevin Codol is an
investigator with our office.
JUROR CODOL: He's my ex-husband from about 30 years
ago.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. I hadn't even planned to ask
that. I'm really glad I did.
JUROR CODOL: It's interesting. I was told he had
passed.
MR. LEEMAN: No; he's alive and well. Well, I
haven't seen him this morning, so I don't know --
JUROR CODOL: No; this was a while ago.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Well, thank you.
JUROR CODOL: Thank you, too, I think.
MR. LEEMAN: Miss Freymoyer, I don't think I have any
questions for you. Your husband is a sales rep? Can I just
ask the company?
JUROR FREYMOYER: Pepsi.
MR. LEEMAN: Miss O'Brien, you indicated you do
bookkeeping and accounting, or have?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Can you just give me an idea of what
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kind of company you do that for?
JUROR O'BRIEN: I used to do it for the Hyatt
Regency, and I haven't done any recently.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. So you don't do it anymore. Was
it sort of internal cost accounting?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yes. Then they outsourced it, and so
I just -- I mean, I'll do stuff for, you know, somebody that
needs help, small businesses or whatever, I'll help them out
there; but otherwise I just . . . no.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
Let's see here. Ms. Blair, you are an insurance
agent?
JUROR BLAIR: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: And is the company your own?
JUROR BLAIR: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Is the company a small one?
JUROR BLAIR: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay.
JUROR BLAIR: Well, define small.
MR. LEEMAN: Well, let me just ask you more directly.
Did the company take a PPP loan?
JUROR BLAIR: Not that I'm aware of.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. No more questions for you.
Miss Virdinlia?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Yeah.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
MR. LEEMAN: Lived in Naples. I actually missed
exactly what you said. It sounded like you, and I believe your
husband, owned some type of business. I have no idea what you
said.
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Home Watch.
MR. LEEMAN: Home Watch. Is that like a nursing --
in-home nursing, or could you explain what that is?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Yes. We have the snowbirds that
come down; and, when they're gone for the season, we take care
of their homes.
MR. LEEMAN: Small business? How many employees are
we talking about?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Just my husband and I, my daughter
part time.
MR. LEEMAN: And I think the Court asked everybody,
didn't take a PPP loan for that; right? All right.
Mr. Schrock, you mentioned you did consulting work, I
think. What type of consulting do you do?
JUROR SCHROCK: So I'm an operating consultant for
Oak Hill Capital, which is a private equity firm out of New
York. And so what I do is I'm on retainer with them, so I'm
kind of permanent. Even though I'm not a direct employee, I
permanently work with them. And then I help them -- I advise
them on companies to buy or not to buy. And then, if they
actually are successful in buying a company, I invest with
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them, typically, and then I would help them operate the
business in a better way.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Thank you.
Let's see here. Mr. Kelley, Marco Island, golf
professional. Are you employed by a golf course, sir, or is it
something that you do independently?
JUROR KELLEY: No. I'm employed at two courses owned
by the Marriott.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. And if you don't mind me asking,
sir, your wife, what had she done as a career?
JUROR KELLEY: My wife worked at golf courses, too,
along with me, in the food and beverage department.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Combs, is it?
JUROR COMBS: (Witness nods head up and down.)
MR. LEEMAN: North Fort Myers. Worked as a
policeman, now work at Lee health. Your spouse worked in real
estate, I think; is that right?
JUROR COMBS: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: What does she do in real estate?
JUROR COMBS: Sales.
MR. LEEMAN: Sales? Okay. Who does she work for?
Is it a large real estate firm, small real estate firm?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes; local large firm.
MR. LEEMAN: Local large firm. Any idea whether that
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company took PPP?
JUROR COMBS: I have no idea.
MR. LEEMAN: All right.
Ms. Guzman. Own a small locksmith business with your
husband? No PPP.
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: You did take PPP.
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Let me just ask you, any issues
in the loan process that lead you to feel strongly, one way or
the other, about the PPP program?
JUROR GUZMAN: No.
MR. LEEMAN: I would imagine, when you applied for
the loan as one of the two business owners, you familiarized
yourself with what you thought the law required; is that fair?
JUROR GUZMAN: Um-hum.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Are you going to be able to set
that aside, and listen to the law as the Court explains it, and
see what the evidence is, and render a verdict based on what
happens in here, not what you learned on the outside?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay.
THE COURT: Mr. Leeman, we have had a request to take
a morning break.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, sir.
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THE COURT: At the risk of interrupting you, I think
we're going to do that.
Let's take 15 minutes. If you'll just follow the
court security officers, they'll tell you where to go for the
recess.
(At 10:55 a.m., the jury venire was escorted from the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Counsel, there's actually one area that I
usually ask that I forgot to ask.
I normally ask jurors if they have any schedule
issues and conflicts. I didn't do that. So, after Mr. Leeman
finishes, I think I'll come back in, see if we have any
schedule conflicts, and then come back to the defense.
MR. DICKERSON: That's fine, Your Honor.
May I raise something right now?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. DICKERSON: With the jurors going out, the thing
that is going to be, I think, an issue, is if anybody has WINK
News, ABC, CBS, on their phone, there are alerts coming in
right now about the case.
THE COURT: Well, they don't have a phone with them
now.
MR. DICKERSON: That's what I'm getting at. But what
I'm just saying is some type of instruction -- they can't do
the research, but if they pop on their phone, there are going
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to be alerts there that would be defined as research, in my
mind; but if they hit that alert, they're going to read what's
being said, right now, by the news channels. So if there is
anything we can say not to access alerts, not view them,
something specific about that . . . .
THE COURT: I'll be happy to say anything you think
is appropriate, but I guess you need tell me a little bit more
precisely what you want them not to do.
MR. DICKERSON: I'll get it down, Your Honor.
(At 10:58 a.m., court was recessed.)
AFTER RECESS
(At 11:12 a.m., court was reconvened.)
THE COURT: All right. Are both sides ready to have
the jurors brought back?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I assume the jurors are ready.
(At 11:14 a.m., the jury venire was escorted into the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Mr. Leeman, you may proceed.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
I believe I left off with Ms. Guzman. I didn't have
any further questions for you, ma'am.
Mr. Worthington, I believe, is next.
Mr. Worthington, you indicated you were a retired
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
police officer; is that right?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: That's correct.
MR. LEEMAN: Where were you a police officer at, sir?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: Oakland, California.
MR. LEEMAN: You also indicated you have familiarity
with this case, and you may find it difficult to be fair?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: Just based on, probably, some
preconceived notions from the news media, and as well as my
experiences with the court.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. I understand, sir. Let me just
ask you, though, directly, will you be able to be fair, yes or
no?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: I'd say no.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Perry. I have your -- just a question. You said
you were retired army, sir?
JUROR PERRY: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: And then your actual work, though, now,
is IT work; is that right?
JUROR PERRY: I'm fully retired.
MR. LEEMAN: You are fully retired. The IT work had
something do with accounting?
JUROR PERRY: Business accounting.
MR. LEEMAN: Are you familiar with the rules of
accounting, or things like that?
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JUROR PERRY: Normally, how much of the application
to develop is to have a technician from the field, and he and I
develop a plan together, he with a technical background in his
area and I in mine.
MR. LEEMAN: Understood. Thank you, sir.
Miss Payne?
JUROR PAYNE: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: You and your husband both work for the
postal service?
JUROR PAYNE: Yes, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. A common agency our office deals
with is the United States Postal Inspection Service, which is
sort of the investigative arm of the postal service. Do you
ever work with those people?
JUROR PAYNE: The investigation, that actual person
that investigates for us?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, ma'am.
JUROR PAYNE: Yes. On one incident, there was an
issue with business they were dealing with. I don't know if I
perceived if it was drugs or something, but --
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. But you're not sort of in
constant or frequent contact with the postal investigators?
JUROR PAYNE: They come in our office if there is
something going on with our product or so forth, with packaging
and handling.
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MR. LEEMAN: Have you had any interaction with our
office, the United States Attorney's Office?
JUROR PAYNE: No, sir. Not technically, no, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: You also mentioned something, you had an
incident in your past, I don't want to put words in your mouth,
but left a bad taste.
JUROR PAYNE: Probably that particular incident with
me, some . . . .
MR. LEEMAN: Let me just ask you this before you get
into the details of it. What was the law enforcement agency
that was involved?
JUROR PAYNE: Fort Myers PD.
MR. LEEMAN: Not the United States Secret Service?
JUROR PAYNE: No, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: The FBI or DEA weren't involved?
JUROR PAYNE: No, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: Do you have a generally bad conception
of federal law-enforcement agencies? We're in federal court,
this is a United States Secret Service Agent. Does your bad
taste about the Fort Myers Police Department somehow transfer
over to the Federal Government?
JUROR PAYNE: I wouldn't say it was technically bad
taste with everyone, because my cousin was a chief of police.
I respect and I have a lot of friends that are cops also. Just
this particular -- some things are handled -- my case was
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really handled inappropriately, and it was never . . . it was
kicked out, but it shouldn't have went that far, if that makes
sense, because if somebody would have done their job right the
first time, I wouldn't even have been in that situation.
MR. LEEMAN: Understood. But that case didn't
involve federal law enforcement.
JUROR PAYNE: No, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you.
Mr. Negron. I wrote down you do AC installation
work?
JUROR NEGRON: Yup.
MR. LEEMAN: Own your own business or not?
JUROR NEGRON: No.
MR. LEEMAN: You work for who?
JUROR NEGRON: United Air Conditioning.
MR. LEEMAN: Do you know if it took PPP loans?
JUROR NEGRON: No.
MR. LEEMAN: All right.
And Miss DiFazzio?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Last but not least. Retired
receptionist?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: For what type of a business?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: I worked as a dental assistant, and
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I worked in an office, and I just did a lot of general . . .
like the last company I worked with was a forklift company.
But I'm retired for a long time now.
MR. LEEMAN: How long have you been retired?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: Ten years.
MR. LEEMAN: And you said -- I wrote -- I don't know
if I'm -- I'm not quoting, I don't think -- you said your
husband was a phone worker?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: Yeah. He's been retired for
20 years. But he worked for Ameritech in Illinois as a service
technician. Repair.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Got it. All right.
This one I'm going to address to everybody, and just
a show of hands if that has happened to you. I'm going to tell
you, at the outset, minor things . . . well, let me ask you
this. I want to know if anybody has been the victim of
something like a theft, or a burglary, or a robbery, or a
fraud. You know, I got my lunch money stolen in high school or
middle school, I don't need to hear about that. I'm talking
about something that's happened as an adult, and that had some
type of an impact on you.
Ms. Blair, I see your hand raised.
JUROR BLAIR: Our home was burglarized while I was on
vacation.
MR. LEEMAN: Recently?
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
JUROR BLAIR: Probably about eight years ago.
MR. LEEMAN: Was the perpetrator found?
JUROR BLAIR: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Is there anything about that, maybe the
perpetrator wasn't found, that left a bad taste in your mouth
in some way, or may have tainted you in some way that you can't
be fair to a person who's accused of fraud?
JUROR BLAIR: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Someone else.
Let's start with you, Mr. Kamath. Yes, sir.
JUROR KAMATH: Does credit card fraud count?
MR. LEEMAN: You were the victim of a credit card
fraud?
JUROR KAMATH: Yeah.
MR. LEEMAN: Did they find the person that was did
it.
JUROR KAMATH: No. I was given back the money, but I
don't know if he was found or not. And it was all for small
amounts.
MR. LEEMAN: Anything about that situation leave you
with either a bad taste in your mouth about the way that the
perpetrator was not found that you might be biased against law
enforcement in some way?
JUROR KAMATH: Not really.
MR. LEEMAN: How about the opposite? Anything about
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it that you were the victim of a crime that would lead you to
be unable to sit in a case where someone is accused of
something like fraud?
JUROR KAMATH: No.
MR. LEEMAN: All right.
Mr. Day.
JUROR DAY: Just some equipment, theft from my
business.
MR. LEEMAN: Theft from your business? How long ago?
JUROR DAY: Twenty years ago.
MR. LEEMAN: Did they find the guy or girl who did
it?
JUROR DAY: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Same question to you, anything about it
leave a bad taste in your mouth.
JUROR DAY: It's life.
MR. LEEMAN: Just life? Okay.
Mr. Schrock.
JUROR SCHROCK: Yes. My apartment was burgled in
Belgium when we lived there. That was the Belgian police,
which are kind of different from our police here in the United
States. Then my house was broken into in Minnesota, but once
again the perpetrators weren't found in any case, but again, no
lasting bad impressions, positive or negative. That's just the
way it goes.
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, sir, for sharing that.
Anybody else? All right. I don't see anybody else
with their hands raised.
If I may have a moment to confer with my co-counsel,
Your Honor?
THE COURT: May.
(Mr. Leeman and Mr. Reichling confer privately.)
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Well, thank you, ladies and
gentlemen, for your time.
THE COURT: There was one area, ladies and gentlemen,
that I normally ask, and I forgot; so let me interrupt counsel
and go back to that area.
As you recall, I told you that the case may last into
next week, Monday or Tuesday. Does anyone have a schedule
conflict if that were to happen?
And I see Ms. O'Brien's hand first?
JUROR O'BRIEN: I have a doctor's appointment
tomorrow morning.
THE COURT: When is that?
JUROR O'BRIEN: At 8:45 in the morning.
THE COURT: And how long would that normally take?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Probably I should be out by 9:15.
THE COURT: Okay. Anyone else in the front row with
a scheduling issue? Mr. Kamath?
JUROR KAMATH: I actually have a doctor's appointment
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
on the 5th of April, but I'm supposed to have my blood test
done, I think, 10 to 14 days before that. That's also
this week.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR KAMATH: No schedule as such, just a walk in,
but . . . .
THE COURT: Okay.
Anyone else in the first row?
Second row, Ms. Blair?
JUROR BLAIR: I have two doctors' appointments
this week. One is on Wednesday, I believe the other one is on
Thursday. I would have to see if they could be rescheduled,
but they were made about three months ago.
THE COURT: Do you know how long those would take
typically?
JUROR BLAIR: With Naples traffic, quite a while.
And I know, I believe it's the Thursday appointment, I actually
blocked myself off for about five hours from work.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Second row? Schedule issued?
Third row, Ms. Guzman?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes. I take care of my mother, and
she has a lot of health issues, and I'm constantly taking her
to doctors' appointments. And I also take care of my
five-year-old niece.
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THE COURT: Now, when you say you're constantly
taking your mother to doctors' appointments.
JUROR GUZMAN: She has COPD, and she has oxygen
tanks.
THE COURT: Are those scheduled appointments, or do
they come up . . . .
JUROR GUZMAN: Yeah, scheduled.
THE COURT: And do you have any scheduled for
next week or seven days?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yeah.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, yes?
JUROR GUZMAN: Probably yes.
THE COURT: Is there anyone else available to do
that?
JUROR GUZMAN: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
Ms. Payne. I'm sorry, Mr. Worthington.
JUROR WORTHINGTON: I have my COVID vaccine tomorrow
at 10:00 a.m.
THE COURT: Okay. Is that locally, or does it
involve travel?
JUROR WORTHINGTON: In Naples.
THE COURT: Miss Payne.
JUROR PAYNE: I just recently went and got my
daughter from school. She was supposed to have surgery
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
tomorrow, with Dr. Reynolds, but he's on emergency medical
leave. She's scheduled, now, Thursday, with Dr. Springer.
They're doing a surgery on the outside of her knee. She tore a
tendon on her knee, her left knee. Then, Friday, they're
taking her straight to therapy. And I have a dentist's
appointment tomorrow. I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Okay. You folks like doctors more than I
do.
JUROR PAYNE: No, sir. It's just my child. She
formerly tore her meniscus in her right knee.
THE COURT: Okay.
Anyone else in the back row, schedule conflicts? No?
All right. Thank you.
Counsel?
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
Good morning ladies and gentlemen of the jury. My
name is Brian Dickerson. Along with Nicole Waid, I represent
Casey Crowther. I'm just going to ask everybody some
questions, and then I have some general questions.
There's going to be testimony about a boat in this
case, so I'm going to go through and ask everybody, real quick,
does anybody here own a boat, have they owned a boat or do they
go boating regularly? If so, raise your hand.
Okay. Mr. Day? All right. Mr. Day, do you have a
boat, own a boat?
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JUROR DAY: I sold my last boat two years ago.
MR. DICKERSON: What kind of boat?
JUROR DAY: It was a 32-foot Sportsman.
MR. DICKERSON: So there's always that saying,
sometimes the best day of a boater is buying the boat and
selling the boat.
JUROR DAY: I loved it. I keep looking to buy
another one. Maybe I'll get smart and won't.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. How many boats have you bought
and sold in your lifetime?
JUROR DAY: I think it's five.
MR. DICKERSON: And have you made money on them, lost
money on them?
JUROR DAY: You don't make money on a boat.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. What's the largest boat you
had?
JUROR DAY: Thirty-two-foot.
MR. DICKERSON: Thirty-two?
Codol?
JUROR CODOL: Codol.
MR. DICKERSON: Sorry, ma'am. What's your boating
experience?
JUROR CODOL: Owned a boat, bought it, sold it, it
was a money pit. It was a sailboat. We now have a powerboat
at our cottage, and it's also a money pit.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
MR. DICKERSON: What about it is a money pit?
JUROR CODOL: It's just, you know, it needs repairs,
and we have to winterize it every year, and, you know, it's fun
to go out on it, but.
MR. DICKERSON: But it costs you money?
JUROR CODOL: Oh, yeah.
MR. DICKERSON: Miss O'Brien, you have a boat, boat
experience? What is it?
JUROR O'BRIEN: We have had a few. Like pontoon
boats, we have had them all. It just cost so much to upkeep.
But they're fun to go out. We're looking at another one right
now, but I'm like costs too much.
MR. DICKERSON: So your husband is looking for it,
and you're saying no? That's it right there? So he's the
boater, you just enjoy going boating but don't like the cost of
it to maintain.
JUROR O'BRIEN: It's like a Harley Davidson. Hundred
dollars, hundred dollars.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you know, when you sold the boat,
did you make any money or lose money when you sold the boat?
JUROR O'BRIEN: You don't want to use it, you just
want to give it away.
MR. DICKERSON: What kind of boat was it?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Last one was a pontoon boat, like a
party barge.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And how many -- you said three
boats?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yeah. Two of them were pontoons, and
the other one was like one -- I don't know, the bow that you
could sit up in?
MR. DICKERSON: Open deck?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yeah. I just ride on them.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
Mr. Schrock.
JUROR SCHROCK: I have two boats here in Florida, a
Pursuit 32-foot and a 15-foot Boston Whaler. 'And then I've
got a boat and a couple jet skis in Minnesota; a 25-foot wake
board boat, a Ski Nautique -- or Nautique Super Air, rather,
the 25, and then I've got these two jet skis.
MR. DICKERSON: Your boats down here in Florida,
bought and sold all the boats, or is that just the boats you
have now, but you had boats beforehand?
JUROR SCHROCK: Those are the first boats I have had
in Florida. I lived in Minnesota until about five years ago.
The ones in Minnesota I bought along the way.
MR. DICKERSON: With all the lakes in Minnesota?
JUROR SCHROCK: I lived in Chicago before that. I
lived in a lot of places, so if there's lake I get a boat.
MR. DICKERSON: What's your experience with boats as
far as selling them and buying them?
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JUROR SCHROCK: They're expensive, but I've enjoyed
them and, you know, they're like a fun thing if you . . . if
you're willing to put up with the issues. They're good.
MR. DICKERSON: With your prior business experience,
have you used your boats for entertaining clients?
JUROR SCHROCK: I mean, yes, but very mildly. I mean
it wasn't like I said hey, let's go all out on my boat.
They're people who maybe happened to be business associates,
and it's not like I wrote off any expenses, but very limited.
MR. DICKERSON: Mr. Kelley. What's your experience?
JUROR KELLEY: I have a 22-foot Hurricane. My first
and only boat.
MR. DICKERSON: And that's an open, right? Deck boat
like?
JUROR KELLEY: Yeah.
MR. DICKERSON: When did you buy that?
JUROR KELLEY: Five years ago.
MR. DICKERSON: What's your experience with the
Hurricane.
JUROR KELLEY: So far so good.
MR. DICKERSON: Is it a money pit for you too?
JUROR KELLEY: A little bit. A little bit. Not bad.
MR. DICKERSON: But maybe a money pit, but enjoying
it outweighs that money pit issue; right?
JUROR KELLEY: Yeah.
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MR. DICKERSON: Anybody raise their hand in the back
row that -- oh, Miss Payne. What's your experience with boats?
JUROR PAYNE: I like them. I like fishing. I'm a
tomboy, so . . . it was with my previous husband. He told it.
With my husband now, we're looking to buy one.
MR. DICKERSON: You're looking to buy one now, you
said?
JUROR PAYNE: We like fishing.
MR. DICKERSON: Anybody else here raise your hand if
you like fishing. Same people that like boats. Makes sense.
So with your boat, Miss Payne, was the old boat a
money pit or was it a good thing?
JUROR PAYNE: No it wasn't. It was something that we
had a little extra money, and we both like fishing, so we just
got it. And the kids enjoyed it, so it was good. So that's
why I want to get another one with my husband now. Just to get
away, especially with working at the post office, need get
away.
MR. DICKERSON: Get away.
JUROR PAYNE: Yes. Catch some fish and get some
happiness.
MR. DICKERSON: There you go.
I'm going to start asking some individual questions.
Mr. Kamath. You stated you think you can put aside,
but you think it's going to be a little difficult to set aside
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any prenotion that you have from the news media.
JUROR KAMATH: It might come up as the trial
proceeds. Like I said, I did not remember the details of the
case until the reverend judge pointed it out earlier. So, if
something like that happens, it will come back to my memory. I
cannot -- I mean, it's in the mind; right? I don't know, but I
can . . . .
MR. DICKERSON: Right. So if it comes back, and it's
in your mind, when you said you think you can put it aside, can
you put it aside during the trial if there's evidence in the
trial but you have something that comes in your mind from
watching the news media in the past, are you going to be able
to set that news media aside, and just listen to the evidence
in the trial, or it's going to make it difficult for you to be
unbiased?
JUROR KAMATH: I don't think it's going to be
difficult if they have -- I mean, if new evidence comes in
court, that, I think, will always take precedence over what I
hear from the news.
MR. DICKERSON: So when the Judge says you have to
take precedence over what you hear here versus out in the
media, do you think you'll be able to do that?
JUROR KAMATH: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. With regard to what you know
in the media, it's in the head or it's not. Looking, right
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now, here at Mr. Crowther, do you see him as innocent, or do
you see him as guilty?
JUROR KAMATH: I don't know. Neither. I don't know
whether he's guilty or not guilty.
MR. DICKERSON: So you don't see him innocent right
now?
JUROR KAMATH: I don't know either way. I cannot say
that he's guilty or he's innocent.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. But there's been no
evidence presented in this trial, at all.
JUROR KAMATH: That's correct.
MR. DICKERSON: And he's presumed innocent as he sits
here in trial. But you're saying, even knowing that he's
presumed innocent, you can't say whether or not, at this
moment, in your mind, he's innocent or guilty.
JUROR KAMATH: At this moment, again, I cannot say
that, because there has been nothing presenting in the court
here, so my mind still is whatever the media I heard, that
stayed in my mind.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. All right.
Mr. Day, with the -- your son taking over the
landscaping business, how long were you in the landscaping
business?
JUROR DAY: Forty-two years.
MR. DICKERSON: And you have been down here 17 years,
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so was the 17 years down here or before?
JUROR DAY: A little bit of both. The last few years
I gave the business with to my son and stayed on for a couple
of years as a remote manager.
MR. DICKERSON: Where is that business?
JUROR DAY: Massachusetts.
MR. DICKERSON: So you never ran a landscaping
business down here in South Florida?
JUROR DAY: No.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And with regard to your
experience with the news, when you see Mr. Crowther here today,
do you see him as innocent, or do you see him as guilty?
JUROR DAY: I don't see him any different than
anybody else in the room at this point.
MR. DICKERSON: No different than me right here;
right?
JUROR DAY: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
Miss Codol, with regard to Casey Crowther, when you
see him, do you see him as innocent or guilty?
JUROR CODOL: Looks pretty innocent to me.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And your experience in the
accounting world, when you were acting as a comptroller or CFO
for construction companies, presumably it was down here,
because you've been here for 20 years; right?
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JUROR CODOL: Um-hum, yes.
MR. DICKERSON: How long ago was it -- I guess, going
back, ten years ago you were doing it, five years ago, or are
you still doing it today?
JUROR CODOL: Oh, accounting?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes. You said you weren't doing
accounting anymore, but I'm just trying --
JUROR CODOL: Well, technically, I'm retired. I
still do work for friends and family, but I've been retired for
a couple of years now.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So when was the last time you
were, as you say working as a comptroller and CFO for various
construction companies?
JUROR CODOL: Construction companies would be about
12 years ago.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And in your experience dealing
with, right now, friends and family taxes, and then in
accounting, you had to deal with various IRS regulations all
the time?
JUROR CODOL: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And I guess, when you had an issue as
to when the regulations weren't clear to you, or maybe they
were -- you were trying to understand them, who did you go to
to try to figure out what the regulation change was, or how to
define it or how to interpret it?
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JUROR CODOL: Well, that . . . when I was in public
accounting, I would go to the partners or other members of the
firm. You know, you do your research, and if you ultimately
can't get an answer, then you send a letter to the IRS and get
an answer from them. When I was in the private sector, then I
would go to whoever our CPA firm was.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
JUROR CODOL: Let them decide.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And was it common, dealing
with federal regulations, to deal with regulations that either
conflict, or ambiguity, or problems with the regulations?
JUROR CODOL: Oh, absolutely.
MR. DICKERSON: All the time?
JUROR CODOL: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And then, in your experience dealing
with the regulation, and then if you have a written contract --
and I'm just, again, dealing with your experience with
contracts, which one controls as far as the regulation or the
agreement when you're an accountant dealing with a tax issue?
JUROR CODOL: Well, you know, if you're doing a tax
return, then you have to follow the regs. If you're putting
together financial statements, I would have to say there's a
lot of room for interpretation.
MR. DICKERSON: So, when you were at Coopers, and you
were putting together financial statements, the way an asset
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was defined or liability was defined in an agreement would
control; correct?
JUROR CODOL: Oh, boy, that's a tough one too,
because the regs tell you what assets fall under what
categories; but, obviously, every asset is not listed by its
specific name, so there's interpretation to determine what
categories they fall in. If something is listed
specifically -- because I was in construction, you know, assets
are generally listed by name. If there's some ambiguity, you
would go back to the contract.
MR. DICKERSON: So ambiguity, you would go back to
the contract and try to get some clarification.
JUROR CODOL: Yeah.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you.
Miss Freymoyer, you haven't been asked many
questions.
JUROR FREYMOYER: No. I like that.
MR. DICKERSON: So your husband is a sales rep with
Pepsi. And I guess, what is that, the regional sales rep?
JUROR FREYMOYER: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: So he goes into stores and tries to
sell Pepsi, or puts the stands up, or . . . .
JUROR FREYMOYER: A little bit of both.
MR. DICKERSON: I have to say, I mean, Fort Myers
17 years, no military, no criminal, no jury, no boat.
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MS. FREYMOYER: No boat. No. I live life simple.
MR. DICKERSON: You've just got the doctor's
appointment, that's it.
JUROR FREYMOYER: No; I don't even have those right
now.
MR. DICKERSON: Oh, no. That's you. I'm sorry,
Miss O'Brien. My bad.
I don't have anything to ask you.
JUROR FREYMOYER: Sounds good.
MR. DICKERSON: Thanks.
All right. Miss O'Brien, kind of going off of what I
was asking with Miss Codol, did you have any difficulty what
you were doing when you were working at the accounting and
bookkeeping? Was it with Hyatt Regency? I couldn't hear.
JUROR O'BRIEN: (Witness nods head up and down.)
MR. DICKERSON: When you were doing the bookkeeping,
I couldn't hear back there, was it with Hyatt Regency?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: So did you ever have to come into
issues where, doing the bookkeeping, regulations conflicted
with different documentation that you had?
JUROR O'BRIEN: I always -- if had I any issues, I'd
go to the comptroller, and we'd go through, and he'd say if I
needed to -- if I had something that didn't look right, I'd go
to him, and we'd get it all straightened out.
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MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And how was it, like did you
have deadlines in bookkeeping, as far as getting everything
done by the end of the month, quarter?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Oh, yes.
MR. DICKERSON: What's that like as far as
pressure-wise?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Oh, it's high pressure because, you
know, we had -- there's so many properties, you know, so you
had your -- you had to get everything done by a certain time.
So then the comptroller is on you, and he's got other things
that he brings in, so you have to get everything done by a
certain deadline. I mean, if you had to go through stuff from
last year just to bring it up, we'd get it done, but, you know,
I always had somebody above me that I could go to and say hey,
this doesn't look right, and then we'd go back through
everything.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. Did you ever have an
occasion where you actually completed the books and records,
and then later learned, or later have someone tell you that it
was wrong, and you had to go back and correct it?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just go back
through everything, and do the investigating, and, no matter
how long it took, I'd get it done. But, you know, if we had to
stay up late, we did it, go back through everything, check
everything, and get it correct, right, to where it needed to
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be.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And you say you've got a
doctor's appointment tomorrow?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yes. Local. It would be like 9:15,
at the latest, I would be out of there by.
MR. DICKERSON: And local, like Fort Myers local?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Yeah, not too far from here like
local.
MR. DICKERSON: So you would go to your appointment,
do you think you gone could be back here by 10:00?
JUROR O'BRIEN: Probably by 9:30.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
Miss Blair. How are you doing?
JUROR BLAIR: Good. How are you?
MR. DICKERSON: Doing all right. So, with regard to
your insurance company providing insurance coverage for
Crowther Roofing.
JUROR BLAIR: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you personally do that account?
JUROR BLAIR: No. I do not work on any commercial
accounts.
MR. DICKERSON: So what's your role then?
JUROR BLAIR: I work in the high net worth
personalized marketing division. I oversee that department.
And we work strictly on personalized insurance.
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MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So then that's why Crowther
Roofing, you've heard of them being a client of your company,
but no knowledge, no nothing, no influence.
JUROR BLAIR: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: And you did say that you read some of
the comments.
JUROR BLAIR: Social media is fun for that. So I did
read some comments, and I don't want to say too much --
MR. DICKERSON: That's fine.
JUROR BLAIR: -- but I did, and it was back when the
news first broke, and someone had made a comment about a
separate transaction, and I did look on public records, and it
coincided with what that comment was.
MR. DICKERSON: So you not only follow social media
and see the comments, you go and research on the comments.
JUROR BLAIR: So, in my job, researching is what I
do.
MR. DICKERSON: And that's what you find fun.
JUROR BLAIR: That is. It's solving a problem.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. So, in this case, does
that research that you've already performed, does give you an
impression, right here today, as far as whether Mr. Casey
Crowther, sitting there, as you're looking at him, is he an
innocent man as he's sitting there?
JUROR BLAIR: We are all innocent until proven
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guilty. So I don't have any bias either way.
MR. DICKERSON: So then you do see him as an innocent
man sitting there.
JUROR BLAIR: Yup. I mean, that transaction was
likely just coincidental in timing. There is no way for me to
know that.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So, with you being
inquisitive, and doing the research, when the Judge says, when
you're sitting here as a juror, you can't.
JUROR BLAIR: I know.
MR. DICKERSON: Are you going to be able to not go
home and look at that iPhone, or whatever you're using, not get
on the computer, not be able to be Dateline/20/20'ish, trying
to figure it out on your own?
JUROR BLAIR: Yup. So when I get off of here I will
be going home and probably working late trying to catch up from
being out all last week from work.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And, if you are selected as a
juror, whether it's five days, seven days, ten days, you would
not be doing any research, not looking at social media, not
looking at the news, news apps.
JUROR BLAIR: No. I've been trying to not watch the
news. It's depressing.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. So, when you look at
social media, do you think -- you investigate it. So, when you
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see something on social media, you don't automatically think
it's true, then; correct?
JUROR BLAIR: No.
MR. DICKERSON: What about in the news? When you see
something in the news, do you think it's automatically true, or
do you have to go investigate it to feel comfortable?
JUROR BLAIR: If I'm going to be repeating something,
I want to know that what I'm saying is correct, so I do my own
independent homework. I mean, the news is good for weather.
MR. DICKERSON: Is it?
JUROR BLAIR: Sometimes.
MR. DICKERSON: Hurricane Irma, I don't think so.
JUROR BLAIR: But it's good to have a high-level
awareness of what's going on around you, but everyone should
form their own educated opinions.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. That's fair. I appreciate
that.
Miss Virdinlia? Is that how you pronounce it?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Virdinlia.
MR. DICKERSON: The Home Health Watch business, has
that been going on for 12 years, since you've been down here,
or did you start it after you moved down here? What's the
story on that?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Well, my husband started . . . .
It's probably been about ten years.
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MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And so you started that
business from scratch.
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And how many employees do you have
now?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Just my husband and I. And my
daughter will come in on a Saturday morning when we need her.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. And that's off season
when you go in and check all the retirees or northerners when
they go back up north, watching their property.
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Your son doing the intern for the
U.S. Marshal, how much did you talk to your son about his
internship with the U.S. Marshal's Office?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Not a lot of detail. He didn't
talk that much about it, other than, after doing that intern,
he changed his major.
MR. DICKERSON: What did he change his major to?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: He's got a Ph.D. in administration
with colleges.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Made the shift big time.
And you did not apply for PPP?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: No.
MR. DICKERSON: You and your husband aren't employees
of your company, are you.
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JUROR VIRDINLIA: No.
MR. DICKERSON: So you probably weren't even eligible
for it, then; right? If you know.
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Honestly, I can't answer that. My
husband does the accounting and all of that. All the admin
stuff, the scheduling, dealing with the vendors, I do.
MR. DICKERSON: So, with your husband doing the
accounting side of that, and maybe he has the experience with
whether or not why you didn't apply for PPP, if the Judge says
you can't talk to your husband about anything about this case,
and you go home, and your husband is nudging you, saying what's
it about, you're not going to talk to him about it; right?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: And when you see I Casey Crowther
sitting there, do you see an innocent man or a guilty man?
JUROR VIRDINLIA: Innocent.
MR. DICKERSON: Mr. Schrock, you've got a lot of
background, sounds like, from being a former Pentair CEO. With
regard to your experience, when a regulation conflicts with
accounting principles, what would you do in the business world?
Or do now, as a consultant?
JUROR SCHROCK: Is it okay if I stand when I answer?
MR. DICKERSON: Is that okay, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may stand whenever you need to do so.
JUROR SCHROCK: I'm not sure if I a hundred percent
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understand the question. I do have experience with the
accounting regulations and when they conflict with, you know,
like actual activities. And, you know, part of my job was to
help resolve those things. So, like Sarbanes Oxley, for
example, when we have control issues and things, I'd have to
make sure that they were conformed to the regulations,
and . . . you know, like you said, I have had a lot of those
activities. Talked to the auditor all the time, and was
representative to the audit committee as part of my job.
MR. DICKERSON: And what's the purpose of an audit
committee?
JUROR SCHROCK: The audit committee really is to make
sure that the company complies with the regulations, and verify
the operating results, and, you know, make sure that the
company performs ethically and responsibly.
MR. DICKERSON: And, just for clarification, Pentair,
for everybody that doesn't know, is a huge company.
JUROR SCHROCK: At that time, it was a Fortune 500
company. Since I left, it split into three pieces, and one of
the pieces is still called Pentair. It's about $3 billion.
MR. DICKERSON: Billion?
JUROR SCHROCK: Billion, yes. It had probably 34,000
employees when I was there.
MR. DICKERSON: So a company of that size has
Sarbanes Oxley requirements and difference corporation
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requirements than a company that has, say, 35 employees.
JUROR SCHROCK: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: So have you consulted with companies
with 135 employees, small company -- or that's actually big,
but medium to big?
JUROR SCHROCK: Part of the Oak Hill Capital
responsibility would involve that, and the private company that
I'm on the board of, Safely, has subsidiaries and companies
that we bought of that size or smaller. So yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And when you're looking at those type
of companies, what type of issues do you find as far as a
problem, just . . . from -- comparing your experience as a big
company with having audit committees and all the management and
oversight versus a smaller company where you're trying to do
everything on your own from a management perspective?
JUROR SCHROCK: I would say all kinds of issues. You
do experience, every now and then, fraud, where somebody, you
know, takes a credit card, and buys something that they
shouldn't on a personal level, or you have a -- you know, but
there are good things too, where people do the right things.
So it runs the gamut, and almost everything you could think of
it.
MR. DICKERSON: And then, with regard to you making a
statement about you have had multiple decisions about the PPP
loan program.
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JUROR SCHROCK: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you have a perception or belief,
one way or the other, are you pro the PPP program, are you
against the PPP program?
JUROR SCHROCK: You want me to answer that as a yes
or no, or how -- what my feelings are on it?
MR. DICKERSON: Tell me what your feelings are.
JUROR SCHROCK: I would say I'm generally opposed to
it. I do believe that there are situations where it was
helpful, and helped businesses survive, and I think that's real
good; but I don't believe it was that well thought out, and I
think that there were some negative consequences, from just the
fact that it was done fairly quickly, and without necessarily
consideration of all consequences.
MR. DICKERSON: So you think the process of putting
this PPP program out was rushed.
JUROR SCHROCK: I do.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Do you understand whether the
PPP program was actually a loan from the banks to the
applicants, or do you believe it is somehow money paid from the
SBA to the applicants?
JUROR SCHROCK: I'm not clear on that. So I'm open
to learn.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. So if you, sitting here,
with your --
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JUROR SCHROCK: My understanding was that it was a
guaranteed loan that could be forgiven if you complied with
the . . . the restrictions on the loan.
MR. DICKERSON: So you understood it was a loan that
was guaranteed; and, if you complied with the restrictions for
the use, then it could be forgiven by the Federal Government.
JUROR SCHROCK: That was my understanding.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So, sitting here with that
understanding, if there's witnesses that may say something
exactly like that -- they may say something different, we don't
know, it's a trial -- are you going to be able to, say, put
that perception you have aside, and actually listen to the
testimonies of the witnesses as to what they say, and make a
decision based upon the evidence here in court, not based upon
your perception you had before?
JUROR SCHROCK: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. Kelley. Do you have any thoughts or
perception -- I know you didn't take out a PPP loan, but about
the PPP loan program?
JUROR KELLEY: No.
MR. DICKERSON: When you see Mr. Crowther sitting
here today, do you see him as an innocent man, or do you see
him as a guilty man?
JUROR KELLEY: I see him has an innocent man.
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MR. DICKERSON: Why is that?
JUROR KELLEY: I don't know if he's affluent or not,
but I've been dealing with country club people for 40 years,
and affluent people are country club members, and I kind of
treat them as special people. We have to. It's our job. So
that's my perception.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. Combs, I have to ask this question. That woman,
lady right there, Miss Nicole Waid, told me I need ask you what
district of the Metro DC police department you were in.
JUROR COMBS: I came up in the First District, but I
worked in the mobile crime lab.
MR. DICKERSON: Did you work with a Brian Waid?
JUROR COMBS: Not that I recall.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Miss Waid was a District U.S.
Attorney up there, and was in DC. I just wanted to make sure.
She thinks she recognizes you, so we're just asking to make
sure. You don't recognize her or remember her name.
JUROR COMBS: No.
MR. DICKERSON: And her sitting here today, even if
you guys actually worked on a case in the past, that's not
gonna change or influence how you sit and hear the evidence and
the witnesses here today.
JUROR COMBS: That's correct.
MR. DICKERSON: And when you see Mr. Crowther here,
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do you see an innocent man or a guilty man? I mean, you were
law enforcement.
JUROR COMBS: I don't see either. I understand the
burden of proof is on the government. I've seen good police
work and bad police work. So everybody gets a fair shake.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. But you don't see him, sitting
right here, as innocent. Even though you've heard zero
evidence, you don't see him as an innocent man?
JUROR COMBS: Presumed innocent, sure.
MR. DICKERSON: You don't have a mindset that he's
guilty just because he's sitting there.
JUROR COMBS: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, sir.
Ms. Guzman, how many employees does your locksmith
company have?
JUROR GUZMAN: Four.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And, out of them, what, three
of them are family members?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And you did not take any PPP loan.
Oh you did. You did take a PPP loan. That's right. Did you
apply for forgiveness already?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And your loan with four employees was
under 150,000 then; right?
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JUROR GUZMAN: Well, we got a loan for 15,000.
MR. DICKERSON: Yeah, but it was under 150,000.
Okay. And did you fill out the paperwork, or did someone else?
JUROR GUZMAN: My husband did.
MR. DICKERSON: So you didn't have anything to do
with it?
JUROR GUZMAN: No.
MR. DICKERSON: So which bank did you go through for
that PPP loan?
JUROR GUZMAN: One was Square.
MR. DICKERSON: Square? Oh, so you went on the
on-line one?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yeah.
MR. DICKERSON: Since you were under 150,000, did you
even have to supply any information for forgiveness? Do you
know?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes. He filled in an application.
MR. DICKERSON: And then you received the notice of
forgiveness?
JUROR GUZMAN: Notice of forgiveness.
MR. DICKERSON: Now, like I've been asking everybody
else, the Judge is going to tell you you can't talk to your
husband if you're selected. Going home, and your husband is
going to say what's this case about, and if you say PPP, and he
wants to talk about it, you can't do that. Are you going to be
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able to tell your husband I can't talk to you about this, the
Judge has said I can't do it? Are you going to be able to
comply with that?
JUROR GUZMAN: (Witness nods head up and down.)
MR. DICKERSON: And the taking care of your mother,
I'm concerned about that. So nobody else is taking care of
your mother right now?
JUROR GUZMAN: No. I'm the one to take care of her.
She lives with me.
MR. DICKERSON: So she's at your house right now?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you have medical appointments
coming up?
JUROR GUZMAN: Yes. We also have a nurse that comes
to our house once a week, and I have to translate for her.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. She speaks Spanish, and the
nurse doesn't speak Spanish. And when does that nurse come?
JUROR GUZMAN: She comes to help her with her
diabetic, and her oxygen is good.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. So are you going to be
able to sit here as a juror, if you're selected, and actually
concentrate and listen to all the evidence, or are you going to
be thinking about your mother and what she's doing, and
worrying about her?
JUROR GUZMAN: No. But maybe yeah. I probably will
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be worrying about her.
MR. DICKERSON: All I want is an honest answer.
There is no wrong answer.
JUROR GUZMAN: I would be worried about her. And
also I take care of a five-year-old.
MR. DICKERSON: Who is taking care of them right now?
JUROR GUZMAN: My husband is.
MR. DICKERSON: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
JUROR GUZMAN: A bad thing.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
Mr. Worthington, I don't have any questions for you.
You have had your say.
Mr. Perry, no offense, I couldn't hear some of your
answers, between the mask, and the glass and being that far
away. What did you say about the media? I thought you said
something, suspect, is that what you said? You didn't say that
the media, to me, is pretty suspect?
JUROR PERRY: I did not.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. What did you say about the
media? You were being asked questions about the media, whether
you believed the media.
JUROR PERRY: There's two panes of glass between us.
MR. DICKERSON: I understand.
JUROR PERRY: I am suspicious of all media as it is
today.
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MR. DICKERSON: So if you had ever heard anything in
the media, observed anything in the media, you don't
automatically believe it.
JUROR PERRY: I don't believe it.
MR. DICKERSON: That's what I thought you said. I
just couldn't hear.
When you see Mr. Crowther, do you see an innocent man
or a guilty man?
JUROR PERRY: Neither.
MR. DICKERSON: What do you mean?
JUROR PERRY: There's been no evidence produced at
this point.
MR. DICKERSON: Right.
JUROR PERRY: I have no decision to make.
MR. DICKERSON: So if he's presumed innocent, and
there's no evidence, he's not innocent still?
JUROR PERRY: Well, then he's innocent.
MR. DICKERSON: Say that again?
JUROR PERRY: He is innocent.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you. And you've . . . four
jury trials?
JUROR PERRY: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And found a verdict in each one?
JUROR PERRY: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: I didn't see -- how many of those
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
four were criminal trials?
JUROR PERRY: Two.
MR. DICKERSON: And, do you know, were they in
military court, state court, or federal court?
JUROR PERRY: State.
MR. DICKERSON: What state?
JUROR PERRY: California.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, sir.
Miss Payne, how are you doing?
JUROR PAYNE: Good.
MR. DICKERSON: You work for the United States Postal
Service.
JUROR PAYNE: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: You have a check that you get paid
for by the United States Government.
JUROR PAYNE: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: That is the lawyers for the United
States Attorney's Office for the United States Government.
JUROR PAYNE: Um-hum.
MR. DICKERSON: Your cousin was the Fort Myers Police
chief.
JUROR PAYNE: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: If a government agent, whether it be
Mr. Kirby or another agent, federal agent, takes the stand, are
you gonna give their testimony more weight because they're law
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enforcement, and work for the same government that you get your
check from?
JUROR PAYNE: No; because everybody is different, and
everybody is equal. Everybody is different. Like I can't
judge you or anyone if I don't know you. That would be like
somebody doing the same thing to me.
MR. DICKERSON: Right. So, when you're sitting there
right now, how do you see Mr. Crowther?
JUROR PAYNE: I don't know him. I don't see him any
way.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you see him innocent or guilty?
JUROR PAYNE: I can't tell if he's innocent. I don't
know anything about it. When we get the information, and we
find out, then I'll be able to determine that; but, right now,
I can't determine something that I don't know.
MR. DICKERSON: All right, but he's sitting at
counsel table with us, government is over here.
JUROR PAYNE: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: That's a little bit different than
you guys sitting in the jury box.
JUROR PAYNE: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: So do you see him, as he's sitting at
that table, that he's an innocent man until he's proven guilty,
or you just don't know?
JUROR PAYNE: I don't know. He's innocent, I guess,
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until we get the information to find out if he's guilty or not.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. That's fair. I understand
that. Thank you.
Mr. Negron?
JUROR NEGRON: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: There's going to be a lot of
documents that are in English in this case, and you stated that
you could read a little bit, a few words, but there's no
Spanish translation, I'll just tell you. Is that going to be a
difficulty.
JUROR NEGRON: It will be.
MR. DICKERSON: It will be?
JUROR NEGRON: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you think, if this case has a lot
of documentation in it that needs to be read, that you would be
able to effectively act as a juror? And read in English.
JUROR NEGRON: It would be tough. I mean, only way I
can do is like it happen before, that I went with everybody
sitting and discussing, you know, talking about it, is the only
way I can judge.
MR. DICKERSON: So you'd have to have somebody else
in the jury panel read part of that document to you?
JUROR NEGRON: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: That's not your own interpretation,
that's somebody reading it to you.
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JUROR NEGRON: Right.
THE COURT: That's fair. Thank you.
Miss DiFazzio?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: You did say you heard on the news,
yesterday, about this case.
JUROR DiFAZZIO: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: I don't want you to go into content,
but how long of a news story was it, and what channel was it?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: I think it was NBC, and I really
wasn't paying any attention until it said that the trial was
gonna start today.
MR. DICKERSON: And you figured you were part of that
jury?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: I knew I was coming today, and I was
like what? So that's how I put two and two together. I didn't
pay attention to the story itself.
MR. DICKERSON: After that, you didn't go and try to
replay it, or find out what this is actually about going to
happen today?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: No.
MR. DICKERSON: And, when you sit here, do you see
Mr. Crowther as an innocent man or a guilty man sitting at that
table?
JUROR DiFAZZIO: Innocent.
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MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, if I could have just a
brief moment?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Mr. Dickerson and Ms. Waid confer privately.)
MR. DICKERSON: No further questions, Your Honor.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Counsel, if you'd take a minute or two, take a look
at your notes, and then we'll don the headsets again for the
peremptory challenges.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you need to stand and
stretch, now is the time to do it. In a minute or two, counsel
and I will be back on the headphones. When we're on the
headphones I know we're not -- you're not supposed to be able
to hear us, but I need it quiet so we can hear each other, as
well. So you have a couple of minutes to stand and stretch,
and then, if you could be seated, that would be great.
MR. LEEMAN: May we move to that side of the room to
discuss?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Counsel conferred with their co-counsel and
clients.)
AT SIDEBAR
THE COURT: First of all, challenges for cause, if
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any, from the government?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Your Honor. The government
would believe cause challenges are in order for Juror Number 1,
Juror Number 9 --
THE COURT: I'm sorry, let's do this one at a time.
MR. REICHLING: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: The basis for Number 1?
MR. REICHLING: Mr. Kamath mentioned that he could
not be fair and impartial given his prior news perception of
the case.
THE COURT: From the defense, any objection?
MR. DICKERSON: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, you need to say that again.
I'm still not getting you.
MR. DICKERSON: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: There you go.
Back to the government, I believe you said Number 9?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Judge. The government believes
a cause challenge is in order. When Mr. Dickerson, excuse me,
asked about whether, looking at the defendant, if he is
innocent or guilty, Mr. Kelley made a comment about country
club people being special, and he couldn't say one way or the
other whether, Mr. Crowther, the defendant, was guilty or
innocent.
THE COURT: All right.
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CAUSE CHALLENGES
From the defense, any objection?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor. He did say he was
innocent. He just said that he works with a lot of affluent
people, but he did not say that he couldn't make a decision.
He said that he is innocent.
THE COURT: He said he's innocent because he's an
affluent person.
The Court's going to deny the challenge for cause.
MR. REICHLING: Judge, I'm sorry, I couldn't hear
what you said here. Are you denying the cause challenge?
THE COURT: That's correct.
MR. REICHLING: If I can just add, I believe
Mr. Kelley stated that he sympathizes with affluent people, was
my recollection what he have said.
THE COURT: Okay. Same ruling.
Still with the government, any additional challenges
for cause?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Your Honor. Juror Number 11,
Miss Guzman, indicated that she has to take care of her mother
all week, and daughter; and the government believes that would
make it difficult for her to sit during this trial.
THE COURT: All right.
From the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: We agree, Your Honor.
THE COURT: So do I. The challenge for cause for
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Juror Number 11 is granted.
MR. DICKERSON: Does the government have any other
challenges for cause?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Judge. I believe Juror
Number 12, Mr. Worthington, had indicated that he could not be
fair and impartial in this case.
THE COURT: Any objection from the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: That challenge for cause for Number 12 is
granted. From the government?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Judge. I have one more, for
Miss Payne, Juror Number 14. She had indicated her daughter
has multiple -- or at least a knee surgery this week, and she
had to take care of that.
THE COURT: That was on Thursday and Friday, as I
recall.
All right. Any objections?
MR. DICKERSON: I don't have anything, Your Honor, to
say that she can reschedule. Sorry. I'm not going to do that
to her.
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
MR. DICKERSON: I'm not going to do that to her. We
don't have a response.
THE COURT: The Court finds for cause on 14 based
upon doctors' appointments and surgery for her child.
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Continuing with the government, challenges for cause?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Your Honor. Juror Number 15
indicated he could not read English, and this case is very
heavily document intensive; so, for those reasons, we believe a
cause challenge is in order.
THE COURT: From the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: We concur.
THE COURT: So do I. Grant the challenge for cause
for Number 15.
Any other challenges for cause from the government?
MR. REICHLING: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Challenges for cause, if any, from the
defense?
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, my concern with Number 13
is his inability to hear. It was very difficult going back and
forth. I think that it will be very difficult for the juror to
be able to hear the testimony. So we move for cause for Juror
Number 13 because of his inability to hear and communicate.
The Court Reporter was having a difficult time hearing him, as
well.
THE COURT: All right.
What says the government?
MR. REICHLING: Judge, I believe that the issues with
hearing is because he's located in the back, behind a couple
panes of glass, as he indicated, so if --
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THE COURT: I'm having difficulty hearing you.
MR. REICHLING: I'm sorry, Judge, I'm just trying to
speak as softly as I can.
I believe that the Court can accommodate if he has
any hearing or speaking issues. Obviously, he's not going to
be speaking during the trial. He can be moved to the front.
And I believe his hearing issues may be attributed to the fact
that he's behind two panes of glass, as he stated during
Mr. Dickerson's voir dire.
THE COURT: I agree that he was very hard for us to
hear. I don't know that he was having problems hearing,
himself; and if he is selected, we can move his place in the
jury box, so the Court's going to deny the challenge for cause
for Number 13.
Staying with the defendant, any 1gal challenges for
cause?
MR. DICKERSON: Six, Your Honor, Miss Blair. She has
two doctor appointments this week, Wednesday and Thursday, that
were scheduled three months ago. And she's also the one doing
the research.
THE COURT: What says the government?
MR. REICHLING: We would agree with the doctors'
appointments, Judge. A cause challenge is fine.
THE COURT: So would I. I'll grant that challenge.
Additional challenges for cause from the defense?
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PEREMPTORY CHALLENGES
MR. DICKERSON: None, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We'll begin with the
peremptories. We'll alternate back and forth. First with the
government. So to the government first.
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, we couldn't hear you.
THE COURT: Okay. Can you hear me now?
MR. DICKERSON: Yeah.
THE COURT: We'll begin with peremptories. We'll
begin with the government for one peremptory, and then
alternate, the defendant for two, back to the government for
one, back to the defendant. The government has six, the
defendant has ten.
MR. DICKERSON: All right.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MR. REICHLING: Judge, at this time the government
would use its first peremptory challenge on Juror Number 3.
THE COURT: Ms. Codol.
To the defendant?
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, Juror Number 7.
THE COURT: Is for Virdinlia. All right. Does the
defense have a second one?
MR. DICKERSON: One second, Your Honor. And
Number 16, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Number 16. Back to the government.
MR. REICHLING: Sorry, Judge. The government would
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PEREMPTORY CHALLENGES
exercise its second peremptory challenge as to Juror Number 8,
Mr. Schrock.
THE COURT: Number 8. Back to the defendant.
MR. DICKERSON: One second, Your Honor.
Number 13, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Number 13 is Mr. Perry. All right. Is
there a second from the defendant?
MR. DICKERSON: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Back to the government?
MR. REICHLING: The government would exercise its
third peremptory challenge as to Juror Number 9.
THE COURT: Mr. Kelley. And back to the defense.
MR. DICKERSON: Nothing, Your Honor.
THE COURT: No challenge from the defendant?
MR. DICKERSON: No peremptory challenges, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Any additional ones from the government?
MR. REICHLING: Just one moment, Judge.
No, no peremptory challenges from the government,
Judge.
THE COURT: All right. I'm going to go through and
renumber the jurors one through however many we are, and make
sure we all agree.
Juror Number 1 will become Mr. Day. Number 2 will be
Ms. Freymoyer. Number 3 will be Ms. O'Brien. Number 4 will be
Mr. Combs. That's it.
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PEREMPTORY CHALLENGES
Does that concur with your notes?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Also on my notes, each side
has exercised three peremptory challenges. So does that also
concur with your notes?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think what I'll do, since it's 12:30,
is I'll excuse the jurors, tell the four they've been selected,
send everybody out for lunch. When I say home, I don't mean
literally home, but out to lunch, and come back in about an
hour, and we'll proceed. The four jurors we have selected I
intend to have seated in the spectator's section so they will
be present for the continuation of the voir dire examination of
the other jurors, in case anything comes up.
MR. DICKERSON: May I, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. DICKERSON: The ones that are already sitting in
the room, they are not going to have access to the phones
during the lunch break, correct?
THE COURT: I'm not sure that's correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Well, I have proposed language I can
give the judge, for right now just say they can't access their
phones until they're selected.
THE COURT: I'll do that.
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MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Thank you.
THE COURT: Okay.
IN OPEN COURT
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm
going to thank and excuse some of you. Those who are not
excused, what we're going to do is we're going to break for
lunch, and those of you that come back this afternoon will have
a seat in what is normally the spectators' section, and we'll
refill the box and go through it again. We'll focus our
attention on the newly seated jurors, and not the ones that
have been selected already, but sometimes something comes up
that new information is available, and you may want to tell us
about it. So we will have those of you on the jury in the
courtroom, as well.
I would like to thank and excuse, in the first row,
Mr. Kamath and Ms. Codol. The other three will remain. In the
second row, Mr. Combs will remain, and the rest will be thanked
and excused. In the third row, Mr. . . . well, in the third
row, all of you will be excused.
So the ones I want to remain are Mr. Day,
Ms. Freymoyer, Miss O'Brien and Mr. Combs. If you would remain
seated, the rest of you may be excused and this will complete
your term of jury service so you need not call that telephone
number tonight. All right? Thank you.
(At 12:32 p.m., the jurors left the courtroom with
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STRICKEN JURORS EXCUSED
the exception of the four chosen jurors.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
All right. The four of you have been selected so far
in the jury process; so, when we come back over lunch, I'd ask
the four of you to be seated in the spectators' section when
you're brought up. And in the same order, if you can, one,
two, three, four, is literally your numbering. Like I said, we
won't be asking you questions necessarily, but sometimes a
matter comes up.
During the recess, I need to give you an instruction
that I will repeat over and over during the course of the
trial; and you will get tired of it, but it's important.
You cannot discuss the case among yourselves, or
allow anyone to discuss it with you or in your presence. You
can't do any independent research of any kind, or communicate
with any device.
I don't know if anyone has a smartphone. I don't,
but I'm told that smartphones sometimes get messages, and
blasts for news broadcasts. You can't look at those. I mean
however it is you delete those, you delete it without opening
and reading it.
During the course of the trial, I anticipate some
publicity; so you can't watch the news or read newspaper
articles about the case. That applies to any device you have,
whether it's a cell phone or a smartphone of some sort. So if
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STRICKEN JURORS EXCUSED
you see something, just delete it. Otherwise, we've got to do
this all over again.
All right? We're going to break for about an hour,
and I'll see you then. Now you may go.
Yes?
JUROR DAY: Take the same seats when we come back?
THE COURT: No. When you come back, you're in the
spectators section. In the same order, but I've got you
written down, so we'll put you in the same order.
(At 12:35 p.m., the jurors were escorted from the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Does 1:40 work for everyone?
MR. DICKERSON: Do the jurors know not to use the
phone? That was on, right? Micki?
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Yes.
THE COURT: Obviously, I'll ask them when we get the
next 16.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. An hour.
(At 12:36 p.m., court was recessed.)
AFTER RECESS
(At 1:42 p.m., court was reconvened.)
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dickerson, there was
something you wanted to discuss?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
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STRICKEN JURORS EXCUSED
As we discussed before the break, the concern about
these notices being published by the local media, just one
example, how this is very concerning, one of them that I
received from NBC-2, is so factually accurate it says he also
takes responsibility for depositing more than 1 million of PPP
funding into his own account to make the lender believe he had
money for a down payment on the home when, in reality, he did
not have the cash.
So I mean not even factually . . . the media is
messing up the facts from what has occurred this morning, and I
just -- the Judge is doing everything he can, I get it. That's
how important it is, because if someone reads these alerts,
whether it's accurate or, like here, NBC-2 is completely
inaccurate, it is going to taint the entire jury, and then we
do all this work to select one, we're going to be dealing with
facts that aren't into evidence. So just by example,
Your Honor, of why we're so cautious on this.
THE COURT: All right. Well, it seems to me that, so
far, we've done everything we can.
MR. DICKERSON: Agree, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'll give them the instruction again and
once we get the actual jury, I'll repeat that; but, as you
know, there's nothing I can do with the media.
MR. DICKERSON: I understand that, Your Honor. I'm
just showing it so that you can see what we're talking about.
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THE COURT: All right.
Both sides ready for the jury?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm not sure what we've got here. Do we
have the four?
COURT SECURITY OFFICER: I have the four waiting out
here. We're waiting on the 16.
THE COURT: Be at ease then. We'll wait on the 16.
(At 1:56 p.m., the four jurors were escorted into the
courtroom.)
(At 1:57 p.m., the jury venire was escorted into the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. If
you're more comfortable, you can take the shields off and leave
your mask on, or vice versa, whichever you prefer.
My name is John Steele. I think you can hear me.
Hopefully, you could hear me this morning, and maybe see me.
That's the least important, as long as could you hear.
We're going to repeat the same process that we went
through with others with you. The first thing I want to do is
find out who you are, so we'll begin with the juror in Seat
Number 1, Miss Thompson? If you could give us the information?
I think you've got the sheet there.
JUROR THOMPSON: My name is Jennifer Thompson. I am
a Cape Coral resident. I have lived there 41 years, my whole
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life. I work retail at Wal-Mart, a co-manager.
I'm married. He is a beekeeper. I have two
children: Twenty-one, he's in college; and a daughter who is
26, she's a stay at home mother.
Education is high school. No service, no courts. I
did serve on a jury probably, I think it was like eight years
ago, and it was criminal.
THE COURT: And I don't want to know what the verdict
was, but was there a verdict?
JUROR THOMPSON: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
JUROR THOMPSON: You're welcome.
THE COURT: Miss . . . I'm going to mess this up, I
know. Letourneau.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Letourneau. My name is Roni
Letourneau. I live in Naples. I have lived in Naples for
five years. I have lived in Florida for 25 years. I have
worked in retail sales for J.McLaughlin.
I am married. My husband is manager of Collier
County Code Enforcement.
I have two daughters. One is 17, and she is in high
school. And my other daughter is going to FGCU, and works in
retail.
I have a high school graduate. I have not had any
military service, or any court experience. And I have been
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called for jury duty before, but have been dismissed.
THE COURT: All right. Could you tell me a little
bit about what your husband does in code enforcement?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Everything from building to
environmental issues, housing issues.
THE COURT: And does he actually make the inspection,
or --
JUROR LETOURNEAU: No, no. He's the manager.
THE COURT: And you said that was Collier County?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Turner.
JUROR TURNER: My name is Danny Turner. I live in
Florida and Naples for the past seven years. I am currently a
defense contractor.
I am married. My wife is a business and office
manager for an orthopedics practice.
I have three children: Twenty-six, he's a
third-grade teacher; sixteen, high school student; a
12-year-old middle school student.
I have an associate's degree in logistics management,
and I have 22 years retired from the United States Air Force.
I do not have any previous court experience. I was
on a court martial jury that did have a verdict.
THE COURT: And how long ago was that, roughly?
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JUROR TURNER: Many years. 15, 20 years ago.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, are you through with the list?
JUROR TURNER: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Could you tell me a little bit more about
your employment as a defense contractor?
JUROR TURNER: I currently am a defense contractor
for a small business out of North Carolina named Walsingham
Group. I oversee fuel contracts. And the other side of our
business is some security stuff.
THE COURT: And with what government agencies?
JUROR TURNER: My contracts currently are with
defense logistics agency.
THE COURT: How long have you been doing that?
JUROR TURNER: Seven years.
THE COURT: Mr. Rench?
JUROR RENCH: My name is William Rench. I live in
Marco Island, Florida. Twenty years. I am a superintendent
for a contractor in Collier County. I have been doing that for
ten years now.
Not married, but my spouse, we've been together for
12 years, and I have a six-year-old daughter. My spouse is an
account executive for a home healthcare agency in Naples.
High school education, no military service, no
previous -- well, I got in trouble once. That was 2007. No
jury -- well, I got Collier County jury duty, and then they
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just dismissed everybody, so there was no cases or anything.
So that's it.
THE COURT: Do you feel comfortable telling us about,
when you say you got in trouble once in 2007?
JUROR RENCH: I got in trouble. I was drinking and
driving and shouldn't have been. I got in trouble.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything about that situation that
would make it difficult for you to sit fairly to both sides in
a criminal case?
JUROR RENCH: No. No. I was guilty. I didn't fight
it or anything. I was in trouble.
THE COURT: Okay.
Mr. Reese?
JUROR REESE: My name is Rhys Reese. They're spelled
differently but pronounced the same. I have been a resident of
Naples and Florida for 11 years. I was in -- I was a
vice-president/COO of a company called Superior Well Services,
which I have since retired from. I am currently semiretired,
and I am a spec house builder.
I'm married. My wife is retired from cosmetics
sales. I have three children, and they're all in their '30s.
One is an office manager, one is a chef, and one is a baristo
in Hawaii.
I have a bachelor's degree in petroleum and natural
gas engineering. I've never been in the military. I've been
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all three, a witness, a plaintiff, and a defendant, in court,
state and federal. I have been called for jury duty, but I
have never been seated.
THE COURT: Have you been a witness at all -- both
levels?
JUROR REESE: Yes.
THE COURT: State and federal?
JUROR REESE: State and federal.
THE COURT: All right. And did you say you have been
a defendant and a plaintiff, state and federal?
JUROR REESE: State for sure. Probably federal as a
defendant.
THE COURT: And can you tell us a little bit about
the cases, both as a plaintiff and as a defendant?
JUROR REESE: Typically, they were over conflict of
interest. Trade secrets. Theft of intellectual property.
THE COURT: Those are in connection with your
business?
JUROR REESE: Correct.
THE COURT: Okay. And you --
JUROR REESE: Personal injury, too.
THE COURT: Were you the plaintiff or the defendant
in that one?
JUROR REESE: Always the defendant in those cases.
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
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JUROR REESE: Always the defendant in those cases.
THE COURT: Okay. And you said you had not sat on a
jury before.
JUROR REESE: No, I have never been placed on a jury.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Williams.
JUROR WILLIAMS: Yes. My name is Paul Williams. I
reside in Fort Myers. I've lived in Florida ten years.
Originally started in Marco Island. And I'm retired as a
property manager. I was with the same company for 34 years.
I'm single. I have no children.
I have an associate's degree in property management.
And I was not in the service. I've never been sued or
anything. I have been on a civil case in Naples about
three years ago. It was dismissed out of court.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Mr., is it Gucmeris?
JUROR GUCMERIS: My name is Al Gucmeris, I'm a
postmaster of Bonita Springs Post Office. Living in Cape
Coral. I have been there for 7 years same as Florida.
I'm married. And my wife also works for the post
office, but she's a mail carrier. I have two daughters. Both
are adults. One is a manager in IT, and the other is
unemployed.
No witness. Wasn't in court. I was called six
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times, five or six times, to the jury duty, but never been
selected.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Ms. Forde?
JUROR FORDE: My name is Akira Forde. I reside in
Clewiston, Florida. I've been there all my life, which is
30 years. I am a traveling medical assistant. Prior to that,
I was a branch manager.
I am married. My husband is a railroad conductor. I
have two kids, an 11-year-old and a four-year-old.
I have an associate's degree, and working on my
bachelor's degree in psychology. No military experience, no
court experience, and no jury experience.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Asmod?
JUROR ASMOD: My name is Ruben Asmod. I live in Cape
Coral. I have been there for like 14 years, in the city and in
the state. I work as a senior field technician in a private
telephone company for . . . since 2005.
I am married. We have two kids, 16 and 13 years old.
My wife work as a home care. For a year now.
I have a two-year degree from college. I have no
military service or whatever, and I don't have -- first time in
a jury. First time.
THE COURT: Thank you.
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Miss, is it Thro?
JUROR THRO: Yes. My name is Cynthia Thro. I have
lived in Englewood, Florida, for the past three years. I've
grown up in Florida my whole life. I am the principal of an
elementary school in North Port.
I am engaged. My fiancée works as an outside
salesman for a marine contracting company. I have no children.
I have a master's degree in leadership. No military,
and no court experience.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Priddy?
JUROR PRIDDY: Yes. I'm Russell Priddy. I live in
Immokalee. I have been there for about nine years. I have
lived in the Middle District of Florida here for about 35. My
wife and I own a cattle ranch. I also serve as president and
chairman of the board of Lee County Electric Co-op. I'm
married. My wife's previous occupation was in the banking
business.
We have two children: One, 29, that's a physician's
assistant; and one who is 32 that owns a tennis and wiffle ball
retail store here in Lee County.
I have a bachelor's degree plus a CFP designation.
No previous military service.
I have lots of experience with the court system. I
have been a witness, been a victim, many times, and had people
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in court. I have served as a juror maybe 40 years ago, in two
cases in South Carolina. One of them there was a verdict, and
I think one, after the jury was seated, they maybe had a plea
deal, and we disappeared.
THE COURT: Okay. Could you give me a summary of
your court experience that you mentioned?
JUROR PRIDDY: Well, I owned a couple convenience
stores over the years, and a large ranch. We have been victims
of theft, trespassing, burglary, armed robbery. The house has
been broken into. Most recently, my wife's horse was
slaughtered for meat. So the list of things that haven't
happened might be shorter.
THE COURT: Let's do it this way. Given all your
experience in the court type cases, including criminal
offenses, as you know, this is a criminal case. Is there
anything about your personal experience that you think would
make it difficult for you to sit fairly to both sides in a
criminal case?
JUROR PRIDDY: Yes, and I have anticipated that
question, and I have a very good relationship with law
enforcement. My wife's side of the family has a number of
retired law enforcement, retired marshal, retired state's
attorney investigator, sheriff's department. I probably have a
little prejudice towards the law enforcement side of things.
THE COURT: Well, we all may have a little prejudice
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in us, but the real question is, if you're selected as a juror,
you have to put aside, basically, everything, and just listen
to the evidence, and then base your verdict on what's presented
in court. And that means that a police officer could be
telling the truth, maybe not. You just have to wait and see.
Do you think you could do that, or do you think that's too much
to ask?
JUROR PRIDDY: No; I think I could probably . . . I
mean, being in business, you look at facts and make decisions,
and I think that's what this would be. You listen, and look at
the facts, and . . . make the right decision.
THE COURT: If you sat on a jury, do you think you'd
have any problem if you found the defendant guilty or not
guilty, not worrying about what anyone thought?
JUROR PRIDDY: No, sir.
THE COURT: No, you wouldn't worry?
JUROR PRIDDY: That wouldn't . . . .
THE COURT: Wouldn't bother you.
JUROR PRIDDY: That wouldn't bother me.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ms. Phelps?
JUROR PHELPS: My name is Susan Felps. I live in
Naples. I have been there for seven years. I have been in
real estate sales.
I'm married. My husband is retired now, as a home
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builder, as well.
I have two children, aged 29 and 28. One is a
software engineer, the other works at Disney.
I have a bachelor's degree in marketing. I've never
been in the military. No court experience, and no jury
service.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Dodson?
JUROR DODSON: Yes. My name is Jason Dodson. I live
in LaBelle, Florida. I've lived in Florida for seven years,
and LaBelle for two years. Let's see. I work for Comcast.
I am married. We have no children. Oh, I'm sorry.
My wife, she is disabled.
And then I have an associate's in computer science.
I have no military service, no court, and no jury service, or
jury selection, or anything.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
And is it Pham?
JUROR PHAM: Yes. My name is Duy-an Pham. Live in
Naples for 17 years, Florida for 20 years. I run a business
with my father, a nail salon.
I'm married. My wife stay at home now to take care
of kids. I have two children's. One is five-year-old, and one
is four months old.
I have some college, but never graduate. And I have
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no military stuff, or I don't know any court. Never sue or
been sued by anyone. I have been called for the grand jury
service once, but I successfully excused.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Smith?
JUROR SMITH: Yes. Duane Smith. I live in Punta
Gorda. Lived in -- there for 15 years, been living in Florida
for 20 years. My occupation is I work for Charlotte County,
construction foreman for a water company.
I'm married. My wife works for the City of Fort
Myers. Her occupation is in IT.
I have three kids, two that are 30, and one 33. One
works for the airport, in operations, one works for an
insurance company, and the other one is a . . . like a CEO of a
restaurant group.
High school educated. Six years in the air force.
Previous court experience, I got divorced. And I've been asked
to jury three times, but never served.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Ms. Graley?
JUROR GRALEY: My name is Anette Graley. I live in
North Fort Myers. Lived there for eight years. I have been in
Florida for 24 years. I'm an owner broker realtor.
I am married. My husband is a land development
engineer and a school bus driver for Lee County.
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INTRODUCTION OF COUNSEL
We have two children. They're 34 years old. One is
in the navy, and our daughter is a nurse.
Some college. No military service. I have sued
before. And I have served on a jury, and it was a criminal
case in Ohio.
THE COURT: And did the jury reach a verdict?
JUROR GRALEY: Yes, we did.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, at this time I'd like to have
the attorneys introduce themselves and anyone else seated at
counsel table, and then my follow-up question will be whether
you think you know any of the people who were introduced.
We'll begin with the government.
MR. REICHLING: Thank you, Your Honor.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is
Trent Reichling. This gentleman seated to my left is Michael
Leeman. We're both Assistant United States Attorneys here in
the Fort Myers Division of the Middle District of Florida.
Also seated with me at counsel's table is United States
service -- United . . . Secret Service Agent -- I'm sorry, it's
been a long day already -- Brian Kirby.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ms. Waid?
MS. WAID: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My
name is Nicole Waid, and myself along my partner, Brian
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
Dickerson, are representing Casey Crowther. Also at table are
Julie Bryan, our legal assistant, and Julie Camponini, who is
also on the defense team.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Do any of you believe you know anyone who was just
introduced? And again, you may have heard me tell this to the
others: If the answer is no, I need to see some heads shaking;
if the answer is yes, I need to see some hands go up. So all
I'm seeing is heads shaking.
I read a summary of the second superseding indictment
this morning. I know you all heard that. Let me do it this
way. Did you hear it, or do you want me to read that again?
You heard it? Okay.
Do any of you know anything about the case other than
what you heard today, this morning, in court, before coming to
court today? A couple hands. We've got some? Okay. I'm
going to come back to each of you that raised your hand, and
we'll talk about that in a little bit more detail.
On a normal day, like I said, we'll meet
at 9:00 o'clock in the morning, run till about noon, one break
in the morning, lunch for an hour, afternoon session 1:00
to 5:00, with break midafternoon. Anyone have any physical
impairment that would need to be accommodated with a schedule
like that? No one?
Again, we anticipate the case may go into next week,
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Monday or Tuesday. We're hoping that's not the case, but we
can't promise.
Miss Letourneau?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: I don't know if this is the right
time. I wrote a letter for excusal a couple weeks ago. I take
care of my parents. They both still live on their own.
They're in their '80s, and have health problems. I have a
daughter who was Baker Acted two years ago, who has mental
problems, that I need to keep my eye on.
THE COURT: Okay. I'll make a note of that.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Okay.
THE COURT: We'll come back to that subject for the
rest of you in a few minutes.
Anything with the Court's schedule that cause any
problems? Anyone? No?
Mr. Gucmeris?
JUROR GUCMERIS: April 1st my vacation starts, and
it's been rescheduled a long time ago, so that will extend
longer than that.
THE COURT: So April 1st is when you're leaving?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Yes.
THE COURT: And you'd rather go on vacation than be
here?
JUROR GUCMERIS: It's on the schedule, and I can't
cancel my wife.
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THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Well, you're taking me out of order. Let's do it
now.
Anyone else got any schedule problems? Mr. Reese?
JUROR REESE: I have a dental teeth cleaning this
Friday. It can always be moved.
THE COURT: Okay.
Anyone else? Yes. Ms. Letourneau?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: So my daughter, the younger one,
has therapy this Wednesday, and my father has the second
vaccination the fifth, and he has a doctor's appointment the
eighth.
THE COURT: Fifth and eighth of April.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: April, yes.
THE COURT: That shouldn't be a problem.
Okay. Any other scheduling issues?
In the back, Ms. Felps?
JUROR PHELPS: COVID shot. Thursday, I'm scheduled
to get my COVID shot.
THE COURT: Thursday.
JUROR PHELPS: Yes.
THE COURT: Morning, afternoon?
JUROR PHELPS: Morning.
THE COURT: Okay. Any other scheduling issues?
Miss Graley?
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JUROR GRALEY: April 1st we are moving to Tennessee.
Just if it runs into April.
THE COURT: I sure hope not. And I don't think it
will hit April 1st.
All right. Any other issues in terms of scheduling?
No? Okay.
Do any of the 16 of you know one another before
today? No one?
Have any of you ever studied law? Again, no one.
Have any of you, or members of your family, ever
worked for the United States Government that you haven't
mentioned already? No one?
Do any of you presently have any litigation pending
with or against the United States Government? Again, no one.
Have you ever had litigation with or against the
United States Government? Again, no one.
Do you anticipate litigation with or against the
United States Government? Again, no one.
Do you have any matter pending in front of a United
States Attorney's Office of any kind? No one?
Have any of you, or your close personal friends or
relatives, ever worked in law enforcement that you have not
mentioned yet?
Mr. Rench?
JUROR RENCH: Yes. I have a few friends that are
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Collier County Sheriffs, and I have one friend that's on the
Marco Island Police Force.
THE COURT: Anything about those relationships that
make it hard for you to sit in this particular case?
JUROR RENCH: No; just law enforcement, like he just
talked about a minute ago.
THE COURT: Can you put that aside and judge this
case fairly?
JUROR RENCH: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay.
Anyone else, law enforcement experience, either
yourself, close friends, relatives? No one?
Does anyone have such strong feelings concerning law
enforcement or law enforcement officers that you would not be
able to sit fairly in a criminal case? No one?
Do of any you have any personal belief that would
make it difficult for you to sit fairly in judgment of another
person? No one?
Now, I read a jury instruction, earlier this morning,
talking about the fact that you are the triers of fact. You're
the sole triers of fact. If I say anything about the case
other than the jury instructions, you should disregard it.
I will give you jury instructions at the end of the
case. You are obligated to follow those instructions.
I told you that the government had the burden of
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
proving the case beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden exists
now, it continues to the end of the case, and never leaves. It
never goes to the defendant.
I told you that a defendant has a constitutional
right not to testify, and that if the defendant exercised that
constitutional right, you could not draw any inference from
that.
I also told you that it was your obligation to decide
the case calmly, fairly, and dispassionately, based only on the
evidence, and no other sentiment.
Can all of you follow that instruction if you're
selected on this particular jury? I see heads nodding. All
right.
Have any of you ever been employed with a bank or a
lending institution?
Ms. Forde? Tell me a little bit about that.
JUROR FORDE: I was a branch manager for a local bank
in Clewiston. I did that for two and a half years, and then I
transferred over to the loan department, where I was in the
loan department for three months before I turned in my
resignation. Now I'm a traveling medical assistant.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Anyone else work in the banking industry?
Mr. Dodson?
JUROR DODSON: Yes. It was like 24 years ago. I was
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just a bank teller in Illinois. Basically like transaction in
the drive through, but that was it.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Anyone else? No?
Do any of you have any experience with the U.S. Small
Business Administration; either worked for it, for example, or
applied for a loan or a guarantee through the SBA?
Miss Letourneau?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: I have gotten a loan through them
before.
THE COURT: How long ago was that?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: That was after Irma.
THE COURT: And remind me when Irma was. That was
2017 maybe?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Four years ago maybe? Yeah.
THE COURT: Did the loan come from the SBA, or from a
bank and it was guaranteed --
JUROR LETOURNEAU: From SBA.
THE COURT: From SBA?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yeah.
THE COURT: Any difficulties with that process?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Anyone else, contacts with SBA?
Mr. Priddy?
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JUROR PRIDDY: Yes. And this may come later, but I
participated in the PPP program, as my son did.
THE COURT: You must be reading my notes, because
that's coming up right now. Go ahead. Tell me about it.
JUROR PRIDDY: I participated in it, and we have
since filed the documentation with the bank to -- for them to
review and it be passed on for forgiveness. Have not heard
back from SBA on that process, but that's where I believe both
of us, my son with his business, and we are with ours, is we
have, you know, submitted the documentation.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR PRIDDY: To have it forgiven.
THE COURT: And was this the first time you've had a
dealing with the SBA or an SBA guaranteed loan?
JUROR PRIDDY: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Anyone else, let me finish up with SBA and make sure.
Any contact with SBA at all?
Mr. Pham?
JUROR PHAM: Yes. I did PPP for my business.
THE COURT: And how long ago was that?
JUROR PHAM: After the COVID.
THE COURT: Did you get the loan?
JUROR PHAM: Yes, we got the loan, and got
forgiveness. I did a lot of second loans, second round for the
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PPP.
THE COURT: Okay. And did you know about the
forgiveness portion of that program?
JUROR PHAM: Yeah.
THE COURT: And have you applied for that yet?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
THE COURT: And has that been resolved yet?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
THE COURT: In your favor?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. And the second one is not resolved
yet.
JUROR PHAM: Not yet.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Anyone else participate in PPP program through SBA?
No one?
Now, have any of you ever done business with Target
Roofing and Sheet Metal Company? No one?
Now, as you heard me say, there's another roofing
company, Crowther Roofing, that has nothing do with this case,
but it's part of the relatives, so let me ask about that, as
well.
Have any you ever had business with Crowther Roofing?
Mr. Rench?
JUROR RENCH: Yes. As a superintendent, you know,
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like a 55, 60-person construction company in Naples, we do a
lot of business with a lot of subcontractors, with Crowther,
with CFAS I believe is another on, on the HVAC side. I just
finished up a dealership in north Naples can with Crowther in
December.
THE COURT: Anything about your business relationship
with Crowther that you think would impact your ability to sit
in this case?
JUROR RENCH: No. They came and told me that they
had nothing to do with it when it was on the news the first
time. You know, it's not us.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR RENCH: It was big in the rumors in the
construction trades, and everybody was talking about it.
Everybody was talking about the PPP loans, and who got one, and
who didn't get one. So it's a small world.
THE COURT: I guess the bottom-line question, again,
is can you put this that stuff aside, and decide this case
based upon what you hear in court, and not what you heard out
in the street?
JUROR RENCH: I guess so. They told me pretty much
that they weren't part of it, so it's separate.
THE COURT: Well, whether they're part of it or not,
I think I pretty much told you they're not part of the case, so
that's not going to be the issue that you have to decide.
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
JUROR RENCH: Okay.
THE COURT: So any problems that you foresee? No?
All right.
Anyone else? Any business dealings with Crowther
Roofing?
Now let me go back to what I asked earlier about
those of you who may have heard something about the case prior
to coming to court. Can I see a show of hands in terms of
media, or TV, or newspaper, or anything like that? Okay. I'm
going to just start in the front row.
Mr. Turner, I'm not particularly concerned about
having you tell me what it is you read or saw, but tell me
where, and how frequently, and those kinds of things.
JUROR TURNER: Originally seen the story on the news
when it first broke late last year, and then I seen it this
morning on the news before I came here.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR TURNER: That the trial was starting for it
today.
THE COURT: Between the two had you followed it?
JUROR TURNER: No. I haven't researched anything
or -- I mean, if it comes on the news, I'll watch it, but
nothing particular with it.
THE COURT: All right. Is there anything that you've
seen in the news coverage that you think would make it hard for
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you to sit and hear the actual testimony, and decide the case
based on that?
JUROR TURNER: No.
THE COURT: Mr. Turner, I think you had your hand
raised.
JUROR TURNER: That was me.
THE COURT: I'm sorry. Mr. Rench.
JUROR RENCH: I saw the news early on, and then the
Facebook post and all that, and the comments, and I read the
article but I didn't -- I thought it was over now.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR RENCH: I really didn't know what I was walking
into today, so. But I'm familiar with it.
THE COURT: Whatever you're familiar with, do you
think you can -- from whatever source, do you think you can put
that aside and base the case and base your decision on the case
that's presented?
JUROR RENCH: Yeah.
THE COURT: Mr. Reese, I don't know if you had your
hand up.
JUROR REESE: Again, I saw it on the media a year
ago, so I don't really have an opinion. A little distrust of
the media in general, so I'm not sure that we know what's true,
so . . . . And I don't think it's going to influence my
opinion at all.
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
THE COURT: Okay. So you think you can base a
decision on the evidence that you hear in court, and not what
you may have heard outside?
JUROR REESE: That's correct.
THE COURT: In the second row? Anyone there?
Mr. Asmod?
JUROR ASMOD: I saw it in a newspaper article on the
internet.
THE COURT: How long ago was that?
JUROR ASMOD: Last year? I think it was last year.
THE COURT: Anything more recently than that?
JUROR ASMOD: No. Not even I hear yesterday. I
haven't watched the news yesterday.
THE COURT: All right. That's good. Anything about
what you read a year or so ago that you think is going to make
it difficult to sit fairly in the case?
JUROR ASMOD: Not really. It's hard to -- because I
haven't seen the evidence, so it's hard to say that.
THE COURT: That's kind of exactly the point. No one
has seen the evidence yet.
Ms. Thro?
JUROR THRO: Just on the news about a year ago.
Nothing else.
THE COURT: Anything about what you saw make it
difficult, in your mind, to sit fairly?
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
JUROR THRO: No.
THE COURT: In the back row? Mr. Priddy?
JUROR PRIDDY: I just heard the news blurb. Probably
didn't even stop and listen very closely, because I don't watch
the news, and I don't participate in any social media of any
kind; but I was aware that the case was out there.
THE COURT: All right. Anything about what you heard
that you think would pose a problem to being fair in this case?
JUROR PRIDDY: No, sir.
THE COURT: Back row, Mr. Dodson?
JUROR DODSON: I just heard about it when it first
came out, but I haven't heard what was done, as well. I didn't
know nothing else about it. I heard about it like one time on
the TV, that was it.
THE COURT: Anyone else in the back row? I missed
Mr. Williams, I guess.
JUROR WILLIAMS: I just heard on the news, briefly,
approximately a year ago, I guess.
THE COURT: Anything that you heard that you think
would make it hard for you to be fair?
JUROR WILLIAMS: No. I don't recall too much about
it.
THE COURT: Anyone else that I missed?
Ms. Graley?
JUROR GRALEY: Just on the news, the media.
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THE COURT: Same?
JUROR GRALEY: Yes.
THE COURT: Same situation as the others?
JUROR GRALEY: Yes.
THE COURT: Anything that you heard that you feel
would make it difficult to be fair?
JUROR GRALEY: No.
THE COURT: Have I missed anyone?
Mr. Smith?
JUROR SMITH: Mine is the same. When it first came
out.
THE COURT: Anything stick in your mind that makes it
difficult for you to be fair?
JUROR SMITH: No.
THE COURT: One of the instructions I'll give
repeatedly during the course of the trial is you can't talk to
one another about the case as it progresses, you can't talk to
anyone else, you can't do your own independent research, and
that means, on whatever device you have, you can't get on and
start plugging in names, or people, or places; but in this day
and age it also means that, if you get some kind of news flash
sent to you, on your fancy watch, or your phone, you can't read
it. You have to just delete it if it relates to the case.
Is there anyone who says I just can't do that? You
know, I'm just so into this communication, the internet, that
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
if you send me a news flash, I'm gonna open it? Anyone like
that? No one?
Can you all follow an instruction from the Court not
to do that? Not to watch TV news, not to read newspapers about
it? You're going to have the best seat in the house. Is there
anyone that's gonna have a problem with that? Because, during
the course of the trial, every time we take a recess, I'm going
to tell you don't be talking about it. At the end of every
day, I'm going to tell you don't be looking on your phones or
any other device, or anything about the case.
You're all okay with that? Okay.
Mr. Leeman?
MR. REICHLING: Thank you, Your Honor.
Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Mike Leeman.
I'm a federal prosecutor here in Fort Myers. I have a few
questions for you all. It sounds like you were able to listen
before. Mine are going to be along the same lines. I'll just
go down the row.
Miss Thompson, you're first. Somebody said your
husband is a beekeeper; is that right?
JUROR THOMPSON: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: So some of these the Court might have
touched on, I might just go in a little bit further.
The beekeeping business, is that his?
JUROR THOMPSON: It is.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
MR. LEEMAN: And did he get a PPP loan for his
business? Did not. Okay. That's it for Ms. Thompson. Thank
you.
Ms. Letourneau, I've written down you do retail sales
for J.McLaughlin. I don't know what that is.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: It's a clothing store.
MR. LEEMAN: So sales in a clothing store. Is it a
big company, small company?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Out of New York. There's like 150
stores.
MR. LEEMAN: Something I should know about but I
don't; right?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Your husband is in code enforcement?
That's with Collier County?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Collier County.
MR. LEEMAN: So no PPP issues there. The SBA loan
you got for Irma.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Just to make sure I understand what you
got, you got a loan directly from the SBA; is that correct?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yes. This is like the building
you went to, they would loan you the money.
MR. LEEMAN: Was it, in fact, a loan?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yeah.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
MR. LEEMAN: You had to pay it back.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yes; I pay on it monthly.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Turner. Defense contractor. You said . . . I
think you said it was a little outfit up in North Carolina; is
that right?
JUROR TURNER: It is a small business.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Is it a small business that took
PPP funds.
JUROR TURNER: It is.
MR. LEEMAN: Were you, as an employee, a recipient of
payroll for those?
JUROR TURNER: I don't know if it, as -- I was a
recipient, personally.
MR. LEEMAN: Right.
JUROR TURNER: I know that's what it was used for
when they applied for the loan.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Your wife is a business manager
for a doctor of some type?
JUROR TURNER: Joint Implant Surgeons of Florida.
MR. LEEMAN: Probably a small business; right?
JUROR TURNER: It is a small business.
MR. LEEMAN: Do you know if they took PPP?
JUROR TURNER: From my understanding, she was told
that they did not. Because of healthcare, they were not
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
allowed to.
MR. LEEMAN: Twenty-two years in the air force?
JUROR TURNER: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. And . . . I think that's it
for me.
Mr. Rench, you live in Marco Island?
JUROR RENCH: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: A lot of friends who are police
officers, sounds like? Spouse is an account executive for home
healthcare?
JUROR RENCH: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: What's an account executive?
JUROR RENCH: She's like a marketer. She goes to
doctors' offices, and whenever a patient gets out of NCH or
something like that, and they need some . . . they need help at
home for a couple weeks, I think it goes through the Medicare,
I'm not sure, I think it's Medicare; but she just helps
facilitate to get the nurses to the people for a certain amount
of time, and then does it all over again, day in day out.
MR. LEEMAN: You mentioned you got into a little
trouble in 2007, DUI.
JUROR RENCH: Um-hum.
MR. LEEMAN: We had a person earlier who indicated
they had a run in with the law, left a bad taste in their
mouth. I didn't get that impression from you. Was that a --
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
JUROR RENCH: No, no. They were doing their job. I
was breaking the law. And I owned it.
MR. LEEMAN: Let me ask you about your -- you're a
superintendent doing construction work; is that right?
JUROR RENCH: Um-hum.
MR. LEEMAN: Let me ask you, you mentioned having
interactions with Crowther Roofing; is that right?
JUROR RENCH: Yeah.
MR. LEEMAN: Also a company called CFS?
JUROR RENCH: I think that's another Crowther
company.
MR. LEEMAN: If you had to return a verdict of guilt
in this case because the evidence proved that, would that put
you in any pressure at work? Would you feel pressure at work
not to return a verdict of guilt because you may be associated
with companies that are associated with Mr. Crowther?
JUROR RENCH: Possibly. I mean, I can always work
with the guys, so I don't have -- you know, they're great
people, and . . . .
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Rhys Reese. You live in Naples. You work -- you
are the vice-president, currently, of Superior Well Services?
JUROR REESE: I sold that business.
MR. LEEMAN: Now you build spec houses.
JUROR REESE: Yes.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
MR. LEEMAN: When you build spec houses, you go out
and get subcontractors?
JUROR REESE: I have a partner. He's goes out and
gets subs. I'm in the financial side.
MR. LEEMAN: And no business, that you're aware of,
in building those spec houses, with Target Roofing,
Mr. Crowther's company?
JUROR REESE: We use Greenlee.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Your wife is in cosmetics
sales?
JUROR REESE: She was. She's retired now.
MR. LEEMAN: She's retired now, as well. Did you
guys take a PPP loan?
JUROR REESE: No. We had no use for one.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Williams, property manager, retired?
JUROR WILLIAMS: Yup.
MR. LEEMAN: Really the only question for you, the
property management company, is that something you own?
JUROR WILLIAMS: No. I worked for a family company,
the same company for 34 years, I had about 20 properties, a
staff of about 40, 45 people. I retired in 2012 and moved down
to Marco. And they flew me back and forth for six months, and
then I a hundred percent retired, and I moved to Fort Myers.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. No further questions for you.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
Thank you.
So Mr. Gucmeris, sir. Postman? Is that right?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Postman.
MR. LEEMAN: Married to a postwoman?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Postmaster of Bonita Springs Post
Office.
MR. LEEMAN: Oh. The postmaster of the entire
office.
JUROR GUCMERIS: Yes, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: Oh. I understand. Okay. Your wife
also works at the post office?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Correct.
MR. LEEMAN: We had that earlier, with another juror,
as well.
JUROR GUCMERIS: I heard.
MR. LEEMAN: Love in the air at the post office,
sounds like.
All right. So you're a U.S. Government employee; is
that right?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Post office is not the government.
MR. LEEMAN: The post office is not the government?
JUROR GUCMERIS: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Walk me through that, because --
JUROR GUCMERIS: As postmasters, we know the post
office is not a part of the government.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
MR. LEEMAN: The United States Post Office is who you
work for?
JUROR GUCMERIS: It's not part.
MR. LEEMAN: Maybe just answer my question. You work
for the United States Post Office?
JUROR GUCMERIS: United States Post Office. And it
is not a part of the government.
MR. LEEMAN: Well, let's take that as true from you,
and I'll ask the question. Is there anything about working for
the post office that's gonna make you favor or disfavor the
United States Government in a criminal case?
JUROR GUCMERIS: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Excuse me?
JUROR GUCMERIS: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you.
JUROR GUCMERIS: You're welcome.
MR. LEEMAN: Miss Forde, from Clewiston; is that
right?
JUROR FORDE: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: You used to work at a bank?
JUROR FORDE: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: What was the bank's name?
JUROR FORDE: First Bank.
MR. LEEMAN: First Bank. All right. Left the bank,
now working as a traveling medical assistant?
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JUROR FORDE: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Is that something out on your own, or
are you working for a company?
JUROR FORDE: I work for a company, but we are
working for the State of Florida. I'm giving out -- well, not
giving out, but I'm doing registration out of Miami for the
vaccine.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. That's all the questions for you.
Mr. Asmod. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
Senior field technician for a telephone company?
JUROR ASMOD: Telecom company.
MR. LEEMAN: That's not your company?
JUROR ASMOD: T Mobile.
MR. LEEMAN: Your wife is in healthcare?
JUROR ASMOD: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Own her own business?
JUROR ASMOD: No.
MR. LEEMAN: No further questions for you.
Miss Turo?
JUROR THRO: Throw.
MR. LEEMAN: Sorry. You're an elementary school
principal?
JUROR THRO: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Your husband is a salesman for a marine
company is what I wrote. Could you remind me what that is?
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JUROR THRO: It's a dock and seawall company.
MR. LEEMAN: Small company, large company?
JUROR THRO: Small company.
MR. LEEMAN: Take PPP funds?
JUROR THRO: Yes, they did.
MR. LEEMAN: Was your husband paid with PPP funds?
JUROR THRO: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Mr. Priddy, I know you took a PPP loan.
Let me ask you, was it Sanibel Captiva Bank that you took the
loan from?
JUROR PRIDDY: No; it was --
MR. LEEMAN: You don't have to tell me who it was.
JUROR PRIDDY: A bank in Naples. No.
MR. LEEMAN: You own a cattle ranch; is that right?
JUROR PRIDDY: That's right.
MR. LEEMAN: Have you had any interaction with
Mr. Crowther or family members sort of in the cattle ranching
community, things like that? No? No familiarity with the
defendant or family members that might be in cattle ranching?
JUROR PRIDDY: I'm familiar with the name of the
company from their advertisements, and I think my wife may have
gotten an estimate five years ago for a job that they didn't --
we didn't do the job, so.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Your wife got an estimate from
Target Roofing in the past?
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JUROR PRIDDY: No, not Target; from Crowther.
MR. LEEMAN: I follow you. Your child owns a tennis
and pickleball store. And they got a PPP loan, as well.
JUROR PRIDDY: That's right.
MR. LEEMAN: You said you were a CFB. Just to make
sure, because people use a lot of acronyms, certified financial
planner?
JUROR PRIDDY: Yes. And not a very good one.
MR. LEEMAN: I don't actually even know, that
requires a license?
JUROR PRIDDY: It does, and I haven't kept it up for
the last 20 years probably.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. We'll get back to this. I think
I'm going to ask a more general question. You have been a
victim of a crime a number of times; is that right? All right.
Ms. Felps. Real estate sales. Own your own company?
JUROR PHELPS: No. I work for National Home
Builders.
MR. LEEMAN: Too big, perhaps, to have gotten PPP
funds?
JUROR PHELPS: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Your husband, though, is a homebuilder.
JUROR PHELPS: He's retired.
MR. LEEMAN: He's retired. How long has he been
retired for?
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JUROR PHELPS: Five years.
MR. LEEMAN: Mr. Dodson, live in LaBelle, work for
Comcast; is that right?
JUROR DODSON: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: What is it that you do with Comcast
though?
JUROR DODSON: I work from home now. We do
everything. Like we set up new accounts, troubleshooting, we
do everything. As far as like issues, we do a little bit of
selling, if you have a TV with internet.
MR. LEEMAN: Are you the guy, when the cable goes
out, you come help set it back up?
JUROR DODSON: I don't do that, no. I cherish my
life. No. I just do everything from home.
Q
Okay. You have an associate's in computer science; is
that right?
JUROR DODSON: Um-hum.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, sir.
Excuse me. Mr. Pham?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: You took PPP funds; is that right?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: And it's already been forgiven; is that
right?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
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MR. LEEMAN: You run that business with your father?
JUROR DODSON: That's my father's business.
MR. LEEMAN: Did you play any role in actually
applying for the PPP loan?
JUROR PHAM: I do like an independent investment
myself.
MR. LEEMAN: Say that again, sir?
JUROR PHAM: I apply for the PPP independent
contractor.
MR. LEEMAN: You contracted for somebody to do it.
JUROR PHAM: I do it for myself.
MR. LEEMAN: Oh, you did it.
JUROR PHAM: Yeah.
MR. LEEMAN: You are the one who filled out a
certification about what you would use the money for?
JUROR PHAM: Yeah.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Smith, let me see if I have any questions for
you. Your son is the CEO of a restaurant group. That sounded
interesting to me.
JUROR SMITH: He does soups and stuff for other
restaurants.
MR. LEEMAN: Is that a local company?
JUROR SMITH: No. He's up in Gorham, Maine.
MR. LEEMAN: Do you know if they could took PPP
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funds?
JUROR SMITH: I don't know.
MR. LEEMAN: I was confused if your job was with the
government or whether.
JUROR SMITH: It's with the county. I work with the
county.
MR. LEEMAN: No PPP there. Wife is in IT.
JUROR SMITH: Yeah. In the City of Fort Myers.
MR. LEEMAN: City of Fort Myers, no PPP.
Last but not least, Miss Graley?
JUROR GRALEY: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: North Fort Myers. Owner/broker/realtor
is what I wrote down. So you do own a small business.
JUROR GRALEY: Yes, I do.
MR. LEEMAN: Did you apply for PPP funds?
JUROR GRALEY: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Your husband works for Lee County as a
development engineer?
THE DEFENDANT: No. He worked for Mason and
Associates Engineering, and now he drives a school bus.
MR. LEEMAN: Oh, he used to be an engineer.
JUROR GRALEY: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Now he drives a school bus. No PPP
there.
Let me ask everybody here, first of all, you've
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heard . . . he was introduced anyway, he works for the United
States Secret Service, Brian Kirby, he's a case agent in this
case. Anyone have any run ins with the Secret Service? It's
not all protecting the President, so it's not a completely
crazy question. No? Okay.
Anybody have such strong opinions about the Secret
Service, good or bad, that you wouldn't be able to sit here and
listen to a Secret Service investigated case fairly? All
right.
I asked Mr. Priddy about Sanibel Captiva Community
Bank, he said no, but I also just want to ask more generally,
are any of you customers for that bank, or had been customers
in the past? Okay.
Last thing I'm really going to ask -- and,
Mr. Priddy, I guess you can sit this one out because you talked
about it a little bit -- but have any of you been the victim of
a theft, a burglary, a robbery, a fraud? I don't need any kind
of -- none of them are inconsequential, but something small,
something stolen out of your yard maybe -- but if you have,
raise your hands. I'm going to go one by one.
On the end, Mr. Reese?
JUROR REESE: I owned a company with 3500 employees,
so there was a tremendous amount of fraud and theft.
MR. LEEMAN: Within the company?
JUROR REESE: Yes. Just employee expense reports.
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We would cover meals and lodging, but pretty soon you're buying
tires for the family.
MR. LEEMAN: Sure. So let me just ask you, it sounds
like you had some court cases, maybe some of those related to
that. But I guess my question is, were any of those things
ever reported to the authorities; and, from there, did what the
authorities did leave a good or a bad taste in your mouth in
such a way you couldn't be fair in this case?
JUROR REESE: You fill out documentation so that we
could terminate correctly. But it wasn't all of them. We
never took anybody -- nobody ever went to court.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. All right.
JUROR REESE: We never got restitution on anything,
but we got them out of the system.
MR. LEEMAN: Got them out of your system.
JUROR REESE: Out of our system.
MR. LEEMAN: Mr. Rench?
JUROR RENCH: During work I have been witness to
break ins, arson, burglaries. They've all been reported. They
take my information and the DA -- nobody ever called me.
MR. LEEMAN: Nobody ever calls you back.
JUROR RENCH: Right.
MR. LEEMAN: The DA. State attorney.
JUROR GRALEY: State attorney.
MR. LEEMAN: Have you ever had any referrals to
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
federal law enforcement entities, like the FBI, or DEA, Secret
Service, anything like that?
JUROR RENCH: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Anybody else? Miss Forde.
JUROR FORDE: Domestic violence, burglaries.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Generally speaking, those are
state crimes. I'm assuming you didn't have interaction with
federal law enforcement agencies in those crimes; is that
right? Anything about your being a victim in those cases
prevent you from being fair in a case where there's an alleged
victim, or unfair to the government, who is bringing the case?
JUROR FORDE: No.
THE COURT: Somebody else. I did see one.
Mr. Guzmeris.
JUROR GUCMERIS: I had fraudulent activity on my
account, bank account, with Wells Fargo. So the security
service called me, and it basically took about six months, and
they cleared everything, separated all bad activity and . . . .
MR. LEEMAN: So you got your money back?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Yeah. My account was cleared.
MR. LEEMAN: And that was a Secret Service case, or
you said a security service?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Security service. That's from the
bank.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
Mr. Priddy, I saw you raise your hand. Okay?
JUROR PRIDDY: I mean, just the numerous cases we've
had in -- you know, some people have gone to jail, and some's
never been caught.
MR. LEEMAN: You know what, I did want to follow up
with you, because I don't think anybody really asked you that.
You have had a number of times where people have taken things
from you, killed a horse, some very serious things. Besides
being the victim in the case, do you hold any opinions about
law enforcement either not doing their job, or doing such a
great job that you couldn't be fair here?
JUROR PRIDDY: I mean, I support them. I think they
worked the cases and did what they could. It's a needle in a
haystack. Sometimes you can find it, and sometimes you can't.
MR. LEEMAN: Sure.
JUROR PRIDDY: You know, getting it prosecuted,
that's another step. Some you do, and some you don't. But no,
I don't hold any grudges against law enforcement.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Priddy.
Anybody else? In that back row? Mr. Smith.
JUROR SMITH: I had my identity stolen when I was in
military service.
MR. LEEMAN: Did you report it in some way to law
enforcement?
JUROR SMITH: Yeah. They came to arrest me, and I
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
was outside the country.
MR. LEEMAN: They came to arrest you.
JUROR SMITH: Yeah. Well, they said that's what the
MPs were there for. But once they figured out I had been out
of the country for six months.
MR. LEEMAN: What law enforcement agency was that?
JUROR SMITH: Military police. Air force SCI.
MR. LEEMAN: So you were ultimately exonerated.
JUROR SMITH: Well, I had been out of the country for
more time than it was done.
MR. LEEMAN: Did that leave a bad taste in your
mouth?
JUROR SMITH: The air force fixed it, and crushed it,
never heard about it again.
MR. LEEMAN: All right.
Miss Graley? Nothing?
Folks, that's really all the questions I had.
If I may just check with co-counsel first?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you folks.
THE COURT: Mr. Dickerson?
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I have some
questions, like you heard before I gotta follow up with
everybody on. I'm going to start off with the people that have
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answered about the PPP, received PPP; and then, also, I just
want everybody's thoughts on PPP.
Raise your hand if you are against the Paycheck
Protection Program. Nobody here has a problem with the
Paycheck Protection Program. Does anybody have any belief, as
far as the Paycheck Protection Program, as far as where the
money comes from? How many people think the money comes from
the SBA directly? Raise your hand. How many people thinks it
comes directly from a bank? Miss Thompson. Mr. Rench.
Anybody else thinks it comes directly from a bank?
Mr. Priddy, you received yours; right?
JUROR PRIDDY: I received mine, but I realized that
the bank was just the agent for the SBA when I applied for the
money.
MR. DICKERSON: So it's your thought that the
Paycheck Protection Program, the money was not the bank's
money, but somebody else's money?
JUROR PRIDDY: It was the bank's money that was
guaranteed by the Small Business Administration.
MR. DICKERSON: So you received your money from the
bank; correct?
JUROR PRIDDY: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: And then the SBA was guaranteeing
that money, and then you filed for forgiveness, you stated.
Correct?
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
JUROR PRIDDY: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Were you the person that was filing
for that forgiveness?
JUROR PRIDDY: My wife and I did it together. I
would have given her the payroll information printouts and tax
forms that we have to report the state and feds, she would have
gone over it and sent it on to the bank.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So you worked with your wife.
She gets the documentation from how much you spent on payroll,
and then she sends it to the bank.
JUROR PRIDDY: That's correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Was it your understanding that it was
how much you spent on payroll right away, or the entire 24-week
period?
JUROR PRIDDY: It was until that amount of money ran
out, but it was all payroll dollars.
MR. DICKERSON: What's your understanding if you did
not file those documents for forgiveness with the bank?
JUROR PRIDDY: That I would have to eventually have
to pay the bank back the money.
MR. DICKERSON: You just owed the money back; is that
correct?
JUROR PRIDDY: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, sir.
And, Miss Thompson, I believe you raised your hand on
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
what you thought. Can you expand on that a little bit?
JUROR THOMPSON: Not really. That's what I assumed
it came from.
MR. DICKERSON: The bank?
JUROR THOMPSON: Yeah.
MR. DICKERSON: So no basis, that's what you just
assumed.
Who else raised their hand, because I didn't see the
back row. Yes, Mr. Rench.
JUROR RENCH: Yeah. The person in the company
applied with the bank, the bank paid the loan out to the
business or whatever, and then the government, if it was
forgiven, was going to pay the bank back.
MR. DICKERSON: So it is your understanding, if there
wasn't any application for forgiveness . . . .
JUROR RENCH: Yeah, there was still a second step.
If it was over a certain amount, or below a certain amount, or
whatever.
MR. DICKERSON: And, if it wasn't forgiven, they had
to pay the loan back.
JUROR RENCH: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: I believe, Ms. Forde, did you have
your hand out? Miss Forde?
JUROR FORDE: No.
MR. DICKERSON: You didn't? Okay.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
Anybody else?
Again, you guys heard me ask the question, but I'm
going just going to do it this way, try to do it a little
quicker. Anybody here, sitting and looking at Mr. Crowther,
how many people who, raise their hand, see this man sitting
there at the table as an innocent man?
Mr. Pham, you don't have your hand up. Do you see
him as an innocent man?
JUROR PHAM: I don't know.
MR. DICKERSON: Voir dire is to ask you questions,
and just be honest and come out and tell us what you think so
we can know what you think. If you have a bias, if you have an
opinion, it doesn't matter. We just need to know it.
So, when you say you don't know, what do you mean you
don't know?
JUROR PHAM: I don't know nothing about whether he is
innocent or not.
MR. DICKERSON: So even when the Judge, when he did
his instructions that this man is presumed innocent, the burden
is on the government to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable
doubt, and he is sitting there innocent, you still don't
understand if you feel that he's innocent right there.
JUROR PHAM: Without the evidence? So I couldn't
tell that if he's innocent or not innocent.
MR. DICKERSON: So what do you think he is now,
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
sitting there?
JUROR PHAM: Like me.
MR. DICKERSON: But you're in a jury box, he's
sitting with two lawyers at a table, with the United States
Attorney's Office on the other side. So he's different.
So can you take what the judge said, and he is
innocent, sitting there, doesn't have to produce any evidence
at all, and it's up to the government to produce all evidence
and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt for him then to be
guilty?
JUROR PHAM: I didn't understand, sir, the question.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
JUROR PHAM: I'm sorry.
MR. DICKERSON: Can you accept that he is sitting
there innocent, and, unless the government proves, beyond a
reasonable doubt, the evidence, using the evidence, proves that
Mr. Crowther is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and
Mr. Crowther doesn't have to produce any evidence, can you
accept that?
JUROR PHAM: I do.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And you received PPP money, as
well.
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Now, I couldn't understand because,
between the masks and the glass, did you say you did it as an
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independent contractor?
JUROR PHAM: Yeah, I do as contractor.
MR. DICKERSON: So did your father file on behalf of
the business, and you filed as an independent contractor?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Were you involved with your father's
filing with the business for its PPP loan?
JUROR PHAM: I helped him to file it.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. And how did you help him?
JUROR PHAM: We went to the bank and, you know,
simple, and they needed everything.
MR. DICKERSON: When you say they needed everything,
what do you mean?
JUROR PHAM: Like the bank knew it. After I take my
dad over there, and, you know, give them some information, and
then the bank just send us some paper. You know.
MR. DICKERSON: So you just had to sign some
paperwork.
JUROR PHAM: Yes, and that's it.
MR. DICKERSON: Did you read the paperwork before you
signed it.
JUROR PHAM: They explained it.
MR. DICKERSON: Meaning the bank explained it?
JUROR PHAM: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: Did you read all the paperwork?
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JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And did your dad read all the
paperwork?
JUROR PHAM: I translate to him.
MR. DICKERSON: You translated to him?
JUROR PHAM: He doesn't understand English. He
doesn't understand. I translate it for him.
MR. DICKERSON: And then, when you said you filed for
the second round, is that you, individually, or your father?
JUROR PHAM: I filed for mine individually, and my
father filed for himself. For the business, they go through
the bank website.
MR. DICKERSON: And what bank was it?
JUROR PHAM: Regions Bank.
MR. DICKERSON: You actually went to an actual bank
office and completed the paperwork?
JUROR PHAM: For the first round, we do through the
bank. Second round, we go through website.
MR. DICKERSON: First round in person, second round
website.
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And you filed the independent
contractor version of the PPP program.
JUROR PHAM: I filed by the cabbage website.
MR. DICKERSON: I can't hear you what did you say?
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JUROR PHAM: I filed the PPP through the cabbage?
MR. DICKERSON: The cabbage?
JUROR PHAM: Yeah. That's for myself.
MR. DICKERSON: And did you understand the program
you were filing for with independent contractors was different
than the one your dad was filing for for the business?
JUROR PHAM: We understand that.
MR. DICKERSON: Right. Did you understand your form
that you -- the program you completed as an independent
contractor was different than the program your dad completed
for a business?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
Miss Graley, you said you did not apply for the PPP
program; is that right?
JUROR GRALEY: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Is there any reason why?
JUROR PHAM: We just felt we didn't need it.
MR. DICKERSON: So you felt that you were in an
economic state that you didn't have to worry about it, so you
didn't file for it.
JUROR GRALEY: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Mr. Smith. I'm trying to -- so was
Charlotte County, what are you exactly doing for Charlotte
County?
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JUROR SMITH: I'm a construction foreman for the
water department.
MR. DICKERSON: So is that just for the water
department physically, or do you go out and do inspections as
far as --
JUROR SMITH: I do some inspections of when
contractors have stuff open and have problems; but most of the
time I make repairs, install new service, maintaining the
public drinking water system.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
Miss Forde, when you were working at First Bank, you
said you were a branch manager for two to five years or two and
a half years?
JUROR FORDE: Two and a half years.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you. That's the Clewiston
branch?
JUROR FORDE: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And so you then had familiarity with
completing loan documents and doing the closings?
JUROR FORDE: Yes. I transferred over to the loan
side and was a loan processor.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So, with the loan processor,
tell me, at First Bank, what that responsibility is, what
you're doing on a daily basis.
JUROR FORDE: I didn't touch much, because I was new,
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so I didn't -- by the time I was working over, they was working
on the ends of the PPP loans, but I didn't really touch those
loans. Basically what I was doing was like satisfying like
mortgages.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So when did you -- I guess
when did you stop working at First Bank?
JUROR FORDE: December 28th.
MR. DICKERSON: Of 2020?
JUROR FORDE: 2020, yes.
MR. DICKERSON: So, then, in the spring of 2020, you
were dealing with basically all the mortgage rush when
everybody was trying to refinance their house.
JUROR FORDE: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. So you were dealing with
the responsibility of that.
JUROR FORDE: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. And so you were dealing
with the responsibility of that.
JUROR FORDE: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: And, with that, were you compiling
all the closing documents for the mortgage, or what was your
actual role? That's what I'm trying to get.
JUROR FORDE: Yeah, so, basically, the loan
documents -- I prepared the loan documents for closing,
or . . . . I did do some like forgiveness for the PPP. That's
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as far as I went for that.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay what do you understand as far as
the forgiveness letters for the PPP, what was that?
JUROR FORDE: Not much. The letters were on my desk
when I came in, and all I had to do was fold them and get them
in the mail.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So you didn't even read them,
you just mailed them. Working in the loan servicing
department, doing the real estate closings, did you encounter
the stress all of a sudden having to get the closing documents
together, something changing, and the pressure of getting it
ready so somebody can sign them?
JUROR FORDE: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: How busy was it at the bank
last year, that March/April time period, when the mortgage refi
was just at its height, and then you also had your issue with
knowing about the PPP loans?
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, I would object to the
relevance and the direction of the questioning, how busy the
bank is. It isn't reflective of any type of a bias.
THE COURT: You need to wrap up this area.
MR. DICKERSON: I will, Your Honor. Can I just get
an answer to that question though?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. DICKERSON: Can you answer that, ma'am?
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JUROR FORDE: It was really busy. There was a lot of
overtime given in the loan department for that.
MR. DICKERSON: And so what I'm getting at is you end
up leaving the bank, and going and working and doing the
traveling nurse; right?
JUROR FORDE: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Did you have any negative opinions
about the banking industry, or working for a bank?
JUROR FORDE: No.
MR. DICKERSON: So you had problem, that it was
pressure, but you just ended up leaving and going to another
job.
JUROR FORDE: No. I ended up leaving because I
wanted to go back into the nursing field.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. Thank you.
Mr. Turner, you said that the company in North
Carolina applied for the PPP loan?
JUROR TURNER: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: No involvement in that, or --
JUROR TURNER: I didn't have any involvement in that.
MR. DICKERSON: You were just aware that they did.
JUROR TURNER: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Miss Letourneau, you were talking
about your loan from the SBA after Hurricane Irma.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yes.
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MR. DICKERSON: How did you apply for that SBA loan?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: I think my husband heard something
at work from people, and then there was like a conference that
you would go to, and you went to that, and brought your
paperwork and everything, and applied for it. And I think it
as a couple.
MR. DICKERSON: So you applied for it right there at
the conference?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: So you reviewed the paperwork there,
signed it, and then you left, and then you found out if you
received --
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yes, he found out about it. He
took care of all that.
MR. DICKERSON: So you weren't involved in it.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: I was. I signed it.
MR. DICKERSON: When you read all that paperwork, was
there any restrictions on how you used that money?
JUROR LETOURNEAU: It had to be for the house only,
no material things or anything like that. So everything was
like new floor, we fixed the pool cage, we fixed the screens
for the pool cage.
MR. DICKERSON: And you just had to pay back that
money.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Yes.
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MR. DICKERSON: And you eventually did pay back that
money.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: Still paying it back.
MR. DICKERSON: So you don't have any negative will
towards the SBA at all.
JUROR LETOURNEAU: No.
MR. DICKERSON: Miss Thompson, you're at Wal-Mart;
right?
MS. THOMPSON: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: What are your duties at Wal-Mart?
MS. THOMPSON: I'm a co-manager.
MR. DICKERSON: Co-manager?
MS. THOMPSON: Um-hum.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Responsible for the employees,
payroll what are your -- I guess what are your -- in your
co-manager responsibilities, was is your responsibility?
MS. THOMPSON: Just to run the store.
MR. DICKERSON: Just to run the store?
If I can get everybody's hands as far as who owns a
boat? All right. Hold on. Pham, Smith, Rhys Reese. Did I
miss anybody else? Okay. I'll start with you, Mr. Reese.
What kind of boat? What's your experience of buying,
selling, owning boats?
JUROR REESE: Three boats. Chris Craft, an aluminum
dingy, a 24-foot Boston Whaler.
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MR. DICKERSON: And what is your experience? Is it a
good experience, do you make money, especially on the
Chris Craft, or negative, or what's your experience?
JUROR REESE: Wish I would have held onto the
Chris Craft.
MR. DICKERSON: Good boat isn't it.
JUROR REESE: I didn't have a good enough job.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
JUROR REESE: Boat stands for Break Out Another
Thousand.
MR. DICKERSON: Yup. But you have a boat now; right?
JUROR REESE: I do.
MR. DICKERSON: And, economically, you want the boat
for enjoyment; is that it?
JUROR REESE: I enjoy fishing. Yeah. It's worth the
expense.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
How about you, Miss Thro?
JUROR THRO: I have a 23-foot day sailer.
MR. DICKERSON: And when did you buy that boat?
JUROR THRO: Three years ago.
MR. DICKERSON: Assuming you still have it today;
correct?
JUROR THRO: Um-hum.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you enjoy the boat?
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JUROR THRO: Very much so.
MR. DICKERSON: So you've never experienced the
selling of the boat aspect.
JUROR THRO: No.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
Mr. Smith, you had your hand up.
JUROR SMITH: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: How many boats have you purchased and
sold, and what do you have?
JUROR SMITH: I have had four boats, and I currently
have a 19-foot Pro Skiff, Mako.
MR. DICKERSON: I would say you use it more for
fishing than anything then?
JUROR SMITH: Yeah. Fishing and just to get it out
of the harbor.
MR. DICKERSON: What's your experience with fishing?
JUROR SMITH: If you don't keep them that long, you
make better money on it.
MR. DICKERSON: What do you mean by that?
JUROR SMITH: A new boat is a new boat. You don't
start having problems until year four, year five. So that's
when I look to get rid of them.
MR. DICKERSON: So you're selling your boats at a
time period so that it doesn't start falling apart, and you can
make some money off of it, and don't have to worry about THE
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
maintenance later.
JUROR SMITH: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: And you've been successful with that?
JUROR SMITH: As successful as you can be.
MR. DICKERSON: Mr. Pham, you raised your hand;
right?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: How many boats do you have? How many
have you owned?
JUROR PHAM: One.
MR. DICKERSON: When did you buy that boat?
JUROR PHAM: Five years ago.
MR. DICKERSON: You still have it?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: What kind boat is that?
JUROR PHAM: Nineteen-foot Mako.
MR. DICKERSON: And you still have the boat, and you
still enjoy the boat.
JUROR PHAM: Yes; still enjoy the boat.
MR. DICKERSON: Anybody else have a -- oh.
JUROR PRIDDY: I don't have one currently, but I have
been a boat owner in the past.
MR. DICKERSON: Tell me about that experience.
JUROR PRIDDY: Twenty plus years ago, family style,
ski boats, recreational.
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MR. DICKERSON: Okay. You don't know from now back
then whether you were successful selling the boats or anything
like that?
JUROR PRIDDY: I donated the last one, but that was a
success.
MR. DICKERSON: There you go. Got the tax writeoff.
JUROR PRIDDY: I don't know if I took it or not.
MR. DICKERSON: All right.
Mr. Reese, the business you had before you were doing
the spec house, what was that? I didn't hear it specifically.
JUROR REESE: Oil field services.
MR. DICKERSON: Oil field services?
JUROR REESE: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: So educate me on it. What is that?
JUROR REESE: Did you ever hear of a company called
Halliburton?
MR. DICKERSON: Oh, yeah.
JUROR REESE: That's exactly how it worked.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. As big as Halliburton?
JUROR REESE: We were the fourth largest in the U.S.
MR. DICKERSON: And you were the VP/COO of that
company?
JUROR REESE: And cofounder, too.
MR. DICKERSON: And cofounder. And what was the name
of it?
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
JUROR REESE: Superior Well Services.
MR. DICKERSON: And, as the COO, what was your role
in the company?
JUROR REESE: I handled the -- well, budgeting, of
course. Review financials, signing documents. I was mostly in
the technology side of the company.
MR. DICKERSON: So that's why you had all the
experience in the trade secrets litigation.
JUROR REESE: Trade secrets. A lot of conflict of
interest situations. We had a lot of non-compete situations.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Did the company actually
contract with the Federal Government? At all?
JUROR REESE: We did work for . . . . Well, you
know, we probably did in Oak Ridge. Yup.
MR. DICKERSON: And were you the responsible party
for contracting, or you were just doing more of, it sounds
like, the financial?
JUROR REESE: No. We did some contracting -- well, I
mean, I knew what we were doing in Oak Ridge, yes.
MR. DICKERSON: When you were dealing with the
financial documents and contracts, like I asked the panel
before when you guys were downstairs, did you ever have to deal
with either the contracting conflicting with regulations, maybe
like the EPA regulations or things like that?
JUROR REESE: Oh, yeah, we were involved in that.
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MR. DICKERSON: And how did you handle that as far as
the conflict?
JUROR REESE: As in?
MR. DICKERSON: If you had a conflict between a
contract and a conflict between the actual regulations, how
would you handle that as the COO of the company?
JUROR REESE: We typically tried to remedy whatever
the situation was.
MR. DICKERSON: But I'm expecting some significant
experience with all the EPA regs.
JUROR REESE: Oh, yeah, all the time, yeah. Every
day.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. What was the height of the
employees that you had at that point in time?
JUROR REESE: At the end, at the day of sale, we had
like 3500 employees.
MR. DICKERSON: 3500?
JUROR REESE: Yes. We never worked in the State of
California, back to your EPA thing.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. I won't deal with that.
JUROR REESE: You can't get in.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, sir. Mr. Turner, coming
back to you, sorry I forgot to ask you this before. With your
contracting, are you actually the party involved with
contracting with the Federal Government, the defense logistics
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. DICKERSON
agency, or somebody involved with the individual contracts?
JUROR TURNER: I oversee the operations to ensure
we're following what the contractors -- how we proposed the
contract.
MR. DICKERSON: So you're the one that's actually --
you got the contract with the Federal Government, with the
defense logistics agency, and you're the one making sure that
the company is compliant with the contract.
JUROR TURNER: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: And how easy of a job is that?
JUROR TURNER: It's got its moments where it's
stressful.
MR. DICKERSON: I would assume so.
JUROR TURNER: Right now I oversee four different
locations around world, so it is . . . . But they're all
pretty much the same type of contracts, so for me it's
straight -- it's the same thing I did while I was in the
military.
MR. DICKERSON: So, from your military training,
you're dealing with the government then, you have to do it
again, just now in the private sector.
JUROR TURNER: But the guys actually working for me
are on military installations.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. You got a familiarity with
that.
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JUROR TURNER: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: It helps.
JUROR TURNER: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: Mr. Gucmeris, thank you by the way,
sir. Got a question for you. I am trying to understand it
too. So I know what Mr. Leeman was saying, U.S. Postal Office
is separate; but you're still funded by the United States
Government; correct?
JUROR GUCMERIS: That statement was incorrect. Post
office was disconnected with government in the '70s.
MR. DICKERSON: Right. So it's no longer a
government agency, but it's still funded by the United States
Government.
JUROR GUCMERIS: No, not really.
MR. DICKERSON: So just our writing a stamp does it?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Post office is a separate company,
and lives by its stamps and products for the services.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
JUROR GUCMERIS: The loans are credit amounts given
from the government, yes. Post office has about 50 or
$60 billion.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. So, then, as the
postmaster, is that just for the Bonita Springs, or is that
Southwest Florida, which office is that?
JUROR GUCMERIS: Bonita Springs.
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MR. DICKERSON: All right, and I'm assuming -- do you
have any role in the loan money from the Federal Government?
JUROR GUCMERIS: No.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, sir.
JUROR GUCMERIS: You're welcome.
MR. DICKERSON: May I have one brief second,
Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
(Mr. Dickerson and Ms. Waid confer privately.)
MR. DICKERSON: Just one question, Mr. Priddy. And
Mr. Pham. I think I asked this, but you first, Mr. Priddy.
Did I ask you that, if you did not submit for forgiveness, you
had to pay the loan back; correct? That's how you understood
it?
JUROR PRIDDY: Yes.
THE COURT: And, Mr. Pham, is that how you understood
it?
JUROR PHAM: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: No further questions.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Counsel if you'd take a few minutes and go over your
notes, and then we'll proceed.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you need to stand and
stretch, now is a good time to do it, before we get started.
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, may we move to this side of
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SIDEBAR CONFERENCE
the courtroom again?
THE COURT: You may.
(Counsel conferred before commencing sidebar.)
AT SIDEBAR
THE COURT: All right. Counsel, can you all hear me?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Can the government hear me? Challenges
for cause, if any, from the government? Challenges for cause
from the government?
MS. WAID: I can't hear anything, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I can hear you. Real well.
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, what about just sending
the jurors for a break, so maybe we can communicate better?
THE COURT: Can the defense hear me now?
(There was discussion off the record.)
IN OPEN COURT
THE COURT: All right. We're going do this the
old-fashioned way. We're going to take a recess and, while
you're on recess, we're going to do what we were going to do
outside your listening. So, if you follow The Court Security
Officer, he'll show you where you can be in recess. It will be
at least 15 minutes. It's a process, we're still working, so I
can't tell you exactly how long, but at least 15 minutes.
(There was discussion off the record.)
(At 3:39 p.m., the jury was escorted from the
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CAUSE CHALLENGES
courtroom.)
THE COURT: All right. We're back on the record
without any of the prospective jurors in the courtroom.
I believe what was said from the government is they
were excusing Mr. Rench -- or challenging him for cause,
rather, and I believe the defense did not object to that.
MR. DICKERSON: That's correct Your Honor.
MR. LEEMAN: That's correct from the government, as
well, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The Court will grant the
cause challenge for Mr. Rench. You have him as Number 20, I
have him as Number 4. But it's the same person.
All right. Proceeding with the government, any other
challenges for cause?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Challenges for cause from the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor. Miss Letourneau.
THE COURT: Number 2.
MR. DICKERSON: Yeah. She said she had to take care
of both her parents, her daughter was Baker Acted, she has
therapy with her daughter on Wednesday.
THE COURT: Yeah. Any objections?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: The Court will grant that challenge for
cause.
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Any other challenges for cause from the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Peremptories. You have each used three
in the first round, so we'll begin with the government.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor. We'd exercise one on
what sounds like will be Number 5 on yours, Number 21 on ours,
Mr. Reese.
THE COURT: Mr. Reese, yes.
Two from the defense, if you have two. You don't
have to stand. That the fine.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. The
two would be, Your Honor, Number 13 on yours and 14 on yours,
29 and 30 on the list.
THE COURT: Dodson is my 13, and Pham would be my 14?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Back to the government.
MR. LEEMAN: We would exercise on Mr. Gucmeris, who I
believe is seven, or 23.
THE COURT: That would be my seven; correct. To the
defense?
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, nine and ten on your
list, 25 and 26 on the master list.
THE COURT: That would be Asmod is Number 9, and Thro
is Number 10? Is that correct?
MR. DICKERSON: That's correct, Your Honor.
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THE COURT: All right. Back to the government?
MR. LEEMAN: We don't have any further peremptories,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Back to the defense.
MR. DICKERSON: Can I have one brief second,
Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
(Counsel for the defense confer privately.)
MR. DICKERSON: Okay, Your Honor, thank you. We
strike Number 1 and Number 6.
THE COURT: That's Ms. Thompson and Mr. Williams?
MR. DICKERSON: Correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
I believe the government has passed; am I correct?
MR. LEEMAN: We have, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So any further from the
defense?
MR. DICKERSON: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Could you remind me, I've got a note for
Juror, my Number 12, Ms. Felps. I just wrote down Thursday,
and I forget now.
MR. LEEMAN: She has a COVID shot.
MR. DICKERSON: I forgot.
THE COURT: Okay. Do we know anything more about
that, in the terms of when, or . . . .
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MR. DICKERSON: Thursday morning, she said, have the
COVID shot.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Anybody want do
anything about that, or just . . . .
MR. DICKERSON: Rescheduling it is a big deal. I
mean, unless we can get . . . .
MS. WAID: If we could ask what time, and the
location? It is not easy to get a COVID shot.
THE COURT: Yeah.
MR. DICKERSON: She's in Collier County, too,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: So there's going to be likely some travel
after the shot.
MR. DICKERSON: Correct.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DICKERSON: We have no objection for cause,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: What says the government?
MR. LEEMAN: We wouldn't object either, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. I think our time here is
unique enough that COVID is important enough that I'll grant
the challenge for cause.
All right. If you'll check my notes with yours, my
Number 3, Turner, would become Number 5. Juror Forde would
become Juror 6. Juror Priddy would become seven. Juror Smith
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would become eight. And Graley would become nine. According
to my notes. Does that correspond with yours?
MR. DICKERSON: Could you just say that one more
time, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Sure. Turner is Number 5. We have four
selected, so Turner becomes Number 5. Forde becomes Number 6.,
Priddy is seven, Smith is eight, and Graley is nine.
MR. REICHLING: Correct, Your Honor.
MR. DICKERSON: Does the government agree I've got
that right?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Judge. Sorry.
THE COURT: I'm just checking.
All right. What I would propose to do is excuse the
jurors that we've just excused for either cause or peremptory.
I'm thinking about sending the others home instead of making
them wait for the next round. But let me have your thoughts.
MR. DICKERSON: No objection, Your Honor, from the
defense.
MR. LEEMAN: Sending the others home, Your Honor? I
don't follow exactly.
THE COURT: The four that we having in the back, and
the five newly selected ones, instead of making the nine wait
in the courtroom for the next round, just send them home.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, I agree with that, Your Honor. I
was going to raise an issue about what we expected. There was
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a part of the government wondering if we should send witnesses
home, as well.
THE COURT: Unless they're the fastest witnesses on
earth.
MR. LEEMAN: They won't be.
THE COURT: Yeah, no. It will take us until 5:00, at
least is my guess, to get through the next round.
MR. LEEMAN: We'll let them know, Your Honor, so they
don't have to mill about the courthouse.
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, just an admonishment not
to touch any media or press before they leave.
THE COURT: I will.
The only other thing is, if my math is right, we have
17 jurors downstairs, and 16 seats. I propose we find a chair
someplace.
COURTROOM DEPUTY: We can put a chair down.
THE COURT: I don't want to leave one person down
there.
All right. Let's have the jurors brought back in.
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, I don't know if we asked any
of the jurors whether they recognized any of the witness names.
I recognize they probably heard them this morning. I don't
know if that's troubling or not.
THE COURT: Well, you know, I certainly thought I
had, but I couldn't swear to it.
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MR. LEEMAN: I think we did this morning.
THE COURT: We did this morning.
MR. LEEMAN: I don't know if we did on the second
round of people. I don't believe we did.
THE COURT: All right.
(At 4:01 p.m., the jury venire was escorted into the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Ladies and gentlemen, it was pointed out to me I
forgot to ask you a question. Do any of you know any of the
witnesses whose names I read off this morning? No one? All
right.
Now I'm going to thank and excuse some of you. Those
of you who are excused may leave, and this will complete your
service, so you do not need to call that telephone number
again. Those of you who would stay, if would you just stay in
your seats for a moment. You may need to move and let the
others get by you. And it's easier to tell you the ones that
are staying. Everyone else is going to be asked to leave.
In the first, Mr. Turner, if you would stay. In the
second row, Ms. Forde, if you would stay. In the third row,
Mr. Priddy, Mr. Smith, and Ms. Graley, if you would stay.
The others of you may be excused with the Court's
thanks.
JUROR PRIDDY: Your Honor, I may have misunderstood.
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Did you say I was dismissed?
THE COURT: I did not.
JUROR PRIDDY: You did not.
THE COURT: You may be seated. But that was a nice
try.
For you those of you who remain, what I'm going to do
with you five, and the four that have already been selected,
I'm going to send you home. We've got another round to do, but
there's no reason to have you sit for that.
I'm going to ask that you come back 9:00 o'clock
tomorrow morning into the jury room. They'll show you where
you're supposed to come back. 9:00 o'clock. We'll try and get
started as soon as we can. Hopefully, we'll finish picking the
jury today, so we'll be ready to start the trial then.
In the meantime, every time we take a recess, I'm
going to give you the same instructions, and it's very
important. Do not discuss the case among yourselves, or allow
anyone to discuss it with you or in your presence.
Do not read anything about the case. I do anticipate
that there will be publicity in print and other media. You may
not look at any of that. If you get something sent to your
device, you need to just exit out of that without reading it.
It's very important, like I said before. You have the best
seat in the house, and nothing good is going to come from
reading anything that you may get in the paper or various media
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sources.
So, with that, I'm going to excuse you for the
evening. I'll see you at 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(At 4:05 p.m., the jurors were escorted from the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: All right. Counsel, we'll take what I
suspect to be about a 15-minute recess while we get the seats
cleaned out and the other jurors brought up.
(At 4:06 p.m., court was recessed.)
AFTER RECESS
(At 4:27 p.m., court was reconvened.)
(At 4:27 p.m., the jury venire was escorted into the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: The jurors may be seated.
Be seated, please.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is
John Steele. I'm a United States District Court Judge. I'd
like to welcome you here this afternoon. My apologies for
keeping you locked up in the room downstairs. You're finally
out of it. If you wish to keep the shield, and take the mask
off, or vice versa, you may do so, whatever you find
comfortable.
The first thing that I'd like to do is find out who
you are, and then we'll introduce the parties, and proceed from
there.
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Mr., is it Treyvus?
JUROR TREYVUS: That's right.
THE COURT: You're Number 1, so let's start with you.
JUROR TREYVUS: Well, my name is Alexander Treyvus.
THE COURT: Let me just remind everyone, we have a
court reporter who has to hear you, so you have to speak loud
enough.
JUROR TREYVUS: I live in Fort Myers. Came down from
New York many years ago. Work as a limousine driver.
I'm married. My wife works as a caregiver. I have
two kids. My daughter is 18. She's a senior in high school
and works as a part-time in a coffee shop. My son recently
joined the navy, so he's in boot camp right now.
I never had court experience. I was called for jury
duty twice. Never been selected. My level of education, all
education been done in the Ukraine, so it's a little like an
associate's degree in the United States, in automotive
engineering. That's about it.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Mr. Rodriguez?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: My name is Leodan Rodriguez. I
have been in the state -- I have been in the City of Fort Myers
for 38 years. I have lived in Florida for my whole life,
40 years. I am currently unemployed, but I've worked in retail
for eight years, and then five years as a cake decorator. I'm
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currently single. I don't have any children.
I currently have a bachelor's degree in computer
science. I have not served in the military. I have never had
any court experience. And I have not previously been in jury
service.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Is it Mr. Hochman?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Yeah. Steve Hochman. Live in Fort
Myers. Been here in Fort Myers for 27 years, same with
Florida. I own a fitness company.
I'm engaged. My fiancée is a nuclear pharmacist.
One daughter. She's 15.
Bachelor's degree. No military experience. The only
court experience I had was I was subpoenaed and questioned by
federal prosecutors and the FBI on a quid pro quo case against
a pharmaceutical company, and in '91 I served on a jury in
Newark, New Jersey, criminal case, and we did have a verdict.
THE COURT: I did not hear your employment.
JUROR HOCHMAN: I own a fitness business. Fitness
company.
THE COURT: Fitness company. All right. Thank you.
When was the incident with you being subpoenaed by the FBI and
questioned?
JUROR HOCHMAN: 2010.
THE COURT: Was that here or someplace else?
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JUROR HOCHMAN: It was here local, but I had to fly
up to Boston.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Nieves?
JUROR NIEVES: My name is Christian Nieves. I have
been living in Cape Coral for about five years, been in Florida
for 12. Currently, I work for a drug corporation as a
supervisor.
I am going to be married one year from . . . from
now, at the end of the month. Happily. My wife works for a
local credit union. I have no children.
Level of education is high school. Never served in
the military. No court experience whatsoever. And I have been
summoned once, but was not selected.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Mr. Panzegraf?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: That's very good, sir.
Michael Panzagraf. I'm originally from Chicago. I
live in Port Charlotte, Florida. I have been down here
ten years. I was a Chicago firefighter for 30 years.
I'm married, I have married, my wife's a paralegal.
I have two grown boys. I have an associate's in fire science.
No military. Lots of previous court experience on both sides.
I worked also as a private investigator for 15 years in
Illinois, so I was in court often. I sued a car wash one time,
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30 plus years ago. And I served on -- I served as a juror one
time in Chicago, Cook County.
THE COURT: All right. Let me go back a little bit
to your employment. You were with the Chicago Fire Department
for how long?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Thirty years.
THE COURT: When was that? Or when did it end, I
guess?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Mid . . . 2005.
THE COURT: And, in that capacity, did you have
occasion to go to court?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: No.
THE COURT: All right. Then you said you became a
private detective in Cook County?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Right.
THE COURT: Is that when you made your court
appearances?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Right. Wayward spouses, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Primarily civil cases then?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Mostly, yes.
THE COURT: You said your wife is currently a
paralegal?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: She is.
THE COURT: And she's still working?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: She is.
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THE COURT: And what type of law firm does she work
for?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: She does real estate closings and
refinances. Paperwork on paperwork.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Miss Cohen?
Hang on. We're going to do this one right here. As
long as you're Miss Cohen.
JUROR COHEN: I am.
THE COURT: Okay. You're up.
JUROR COHEN: I'm Number 17.
THE COURT: You're right. Go.
JUROR COHEN: Okay. Great. Elisha Cohen. I live in
Naples, Florida. I have been in Naples for 15 years. I have
been in Florida for about 40. I am a teacher in Collier
County.
I am married. My spouse is a psychologist. We own a
psychology practice in both Fort Myers and Naples. I have one
child. He's 18 and in college.
I have a master's in education and public health. I
have no military service. I have sued, and I was a plaintiff
for underage drinking and open container at the University of
Florida. And I have no jury service.
THE COURT: When you say you've sued, you were a
plaintiff in what?
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JUROR COHEN: I was in a restaurant, and somebody
dropped a plate, and a shard came and cut me.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
JUROR COHEN: Thank you.
THE COURT: Miss Klein, now we're at you.
JUROR KLEIN: My name is Marian Klein. I live in
Bonita Springs. I have lived there for -- I have been a
resident for 21 years. I am retired. I was a teacher. And
much of my life was spent with serving on community boards,
particularly hospital boards, for 30 years.
I am married. My husband was and is retired. And
was a banker. And in investments. I have three sons. They
are all adult, and have children of their own, and they all
live in Michigan. One is in construction, one is an engineer,
and one is retired.
I'm a graduate from the university. And as well as
graduate studies. Additional. I have never served in the
military. I have never been sued. I have never been in court.
I have not served a jury, but was called to be a possible jury
juror but never seated.
THE COURT: And what bank did your husband retire
from?
JUROR KLEIN: Bank of America.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Miss Alvarez?
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JUROR ALVAREZ: My name is Anna Alvarez. I live in
Naples for the last four years. My occupation is mental health
clinician, supervisor.
I am divorced. I have two children, one of my own
and one adopted. One is 26, is a social worker. And the boy
is the (unintelligible).
My level of education is a master's in mental health.
I do not have jury service experience. I do not have previous
court experience or witness. Never been served. Never been in
court. I have no jury service.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Anderson?
JUROR ANDERSON: My name is Erik Anderson. I live in
Fort Myers for the last four years. Same for Florida. I'm a
retired railroad senior manager of rules and operating
practices. I am married. My wife is retired from raising
children. We've got two children. One, 41, works customer
service for Hormel, and the other is 37 and works in the
Collier County School District.
I have two years of college, but no degree. I served
in the U.S. Navy, and was honorably discharged. I've never
been in court, but I've been deposed multiple times from work
with the railroad. And I've been on a jury on a civil case in
Minnesota in the early 1980s, and in a criminal case in the
State of Iowa approximately ten years ago.
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THE COURT: Could you tell me a little bit more about
your occupation? And I understand that you're retired, but
what was it that you did for the railroad?
JUROR THRO: I actually wrote rules, wrote
timetables, and worked with the federal railroad administration
on compliance with federal regulations.
THE COURT: And how did that get you into court?
JUROR ANDERSON: Grade crossing accidents.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Mitchell?
JUROR MITCHELL: My name is William Mitchell. I'm
from Naples, Florida, and I've lived in Naples for 13 years.
And 21 years in the State of Florida. My occupation is City of
Naples Parks and Parkway Supervisor.
My marital status is married, and my wife's
occupation is independent travel consultant. I have two
children, aged eight and ten.
I have a bachelor's degree in English. I have served
in the U.S. Marine Corps, and was honorably discharged. I have
had -- I was a witness at a court martial once. And I had to
go to traffic court once. And I did serve on a jury -- I did
not actually serve, but I reported for jury duty.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Miss Shaw?
JUROR SHAW: My name is Leslie Shaw. I live in
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Naples. I have lived there for eight years. I have lived in
Florida for eight years, as well. I'm a physical therapist
assistant.
I'm married, and my husband is an emergency
management coordinator for Collier County. I have one child
who is three years old.
I have a master's in exercise science. No military
background. No court experience. And I've been called for
jury, but never made it in.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Ms. King?
JUROR KING: Hi. My name is Nicole King. I recently
moved to Estero, two months ago, from Naples, where I lived
there for five years. Prior, I lived in Chicago.
My occupation, I work for Collier County. I'm in the
convention and visitors bureau.
I am married. My husband also works for Collier
County. He's an environmental specialist. I have two children
of the ages of 12 and 14.
I do not have any previous military experience. I
have a bachelor's in business administration. I do not have
any previous court experience. I've never been sued, and I
have -- do not have any jury experience.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Kaufman?
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JUROR KAUFMAN: May name is Rick Kaufman. I live in
Fort Myers. I've there be for 15 years, and I've lived in
Florida for 45 years. I'm retired. My occupation was a
regional sales rep for a manufacturer of hospitality products
in the Southeastern United States and the Caribbean.
I am married. My wife is a teacher locally, here in
Fort Myers. I do have one child. Excuse me. Twenty-five.
Lives in Nashville. Works for a congressman.
My education is two years of college. No military
service. No previous court experience. I have been sued one
time. I have been on one jury, and we did get a verdict.
THE COURT: Do you remember if that was a civil or
criminal case?
JUROR KAUFMAN: Civil.
THE COURT: Ms., is it Bonany?
JUROR BONANY: That is correct. My name is Wendy
Bonany. I live in Fort Myers. I've lived there for 16 years,
and been in Florida for 32 years. I am a mortgage loan
originator.
I'm married. My husband is a supervisor at an
aluminum distributing company. I have two grown children; one,
27, who is a client retention manager, and one, 26, who is an
insurance agent for personal lines.
I have an associate's degree. I have not served in
the military, no previous court experience, and I have served
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on a jury in Lee County, it was a criminal case, and we did
reach a verdict.
THE COURT: Thank you. You said you worked as a
mortgage loan originator. Is that with a company?
JUROR BONANY: Yes. It's a privately owned company
here based in Fort Myers.
THE COURT: And what is the name of it?
JUROR BONANY: Mortgage Warehouse.
THE COURT: How long have you worked there?
JUROR BONANY: Ten years.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Weber?
JUROR WEBER: Hello. My name is Mike Weber. I live
in the City of Bonita Springs for 11 years, and in the state
11 years. I was a cabinetmaker for 20 years, and I have been
in medical sales for eight years. And four years when I lived
in Florida I had a fishing magazine I published down in Naples.
I'm married. My wife is the COO of a roofing company
in Naples. She also owns two businesses, or portions of them.
One is a website developer, one is a medical device place.
I have two daughters. One is 26. She is in
Wisconsin. She's a compliance engineer. The other daughter is
in Atlanta. She's in not sure.
I am a high school graduate. Three years in the
navy. No court experience, I have been called for jury duty
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but never served.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Bailey?
JUROR BAILEY: My name is Kenneth Bailey. I've lived
in the City of Fort Myers and Florida for the last ten years.
I'm currently unemployed. Recently, my previous employment was
a site manager at a vegetable research company.
I'm married. My wife is a registered nurse. I have
four adult children. One is a teacher here in Fort Myers, one
is a nurse, one is a private investigator, and the other is a
software developer.
I have a master of science degree. I have no
military service. My only credit is I had to sue once to get
out of my house. They refused to pay rent, refused to leave
the house, and they filed for bankruptcy, so I had to go to
court to get them out. I have no previous court experience or
service.
THE COURT: And Mr. Moore.
JUROR MOORE: I'm Richard Moore. I live in Cape
Coral, and we have lived there for the last five years. That's
as long as we've been in Florida. I'm a retired software
developer.
I'm married. My wife is a retired registered nurse.
We have two adult children. Our oldest daughter is 51, and an
assistant principal. And our son is doing cancer research for
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the University of California Davis.
I have two years of college, no previous military, no
previous court experience, and no previous jury.
THE COURT: Thank you.
All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to ask
the attorneys to introduce themselves and anyone seated at the
counsel table, and then the follow-up, of course, will be
whether you know any of these individuals counsel.
MR. REICHLING: Thank you, Your Honor.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Well, close to
evening. My name is Trent Reichling. Seated next to me is
Michael Leeman. We're both federal prosecutors with the U.S.
Attorney's Office in Fort Myers. Also seated at counsel table
is Brian Kirby. He's a Secret Service agent.
MS. WAID: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
Thanks for your patience. My name is Nicole Waid. And my
partner, Brian Dickerson, and I, represent our client, Casey
Crowther. Also at the table is Julie Bryan and Julie
Camponini, who are also part of the firm.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Do any of you believe you know any of the ladies or
gentlemen who have been introduced? And again, heads shaking
no, if the answer is no. I want to see hands raised if it's
going to be a yes.
I know you heard me read the summary of the second
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superseding indictment. Does anyone know anything about the
case before coming to court today other than what you've heard
in court?
All right. Let's do it this way. Mr. Rodriguez?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, I've heard a lot of it on TV.
THE COURT: Let me caution you, I don't want to know
what it is you heard, just where you heard it and when.
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Oh, yes. Most of it was during the
end of the year last year. It was mostly from like WINK TV,
NBC, and FOX4, and social media like Twitter it was mentioned a
couple of timings. And that's pretty much it. I don't read
the paper.
THE COURT: All right. Anything about what you read
or heard that you think would make it difficult to sit fairly
in the trial?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Not really, because most of it was
during the end of last year that I heard it, and I haven't
heard anything since. And just recently I just heard like
media speaking of it on the news.
THE COURT: Do you understand that, if you're
selected as juror, whatever you heard kind of goes out the
window, and all you can depend upon is the evidence that's
presented here in court?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yes, I understand.
THE COURT: Can you do that?
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JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
THE COURT: The next one who heard something about
the case in the front row? No? I'm sorry, Miss Cohen?
JUROR COHEN: Saw it on the news while watching the
news with my husband, and it stuck out because we also got a
PPP loan and so it kind of jumped out because we got one.
THE COURT: I'll get into that a little bit later,
but in terms of any media coverage, was that the extent of what
you know, from the media?
JUROR COHEN: Pretty much from the television news
and maybe something in the Naples News.
THE COURT: Is there anything that would make it
difficult in deciding the case solely on what you hear in
court?
JUROR COHEN: No.
THE COURT: Okay.
And in the second row? And Mr. Mitchell?
JUROR MITCHELL: I did. I heard it on WINK News just
briefly. I didn't read it anywhere, but that's where I heard
about the case.
THE COURT: Was that recently?
JUROR MITCHELL: That would have been last year.
Six months, eight months ago.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR MITCHELL: Just a brief news report. But I
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didn't see any real details.
THE COURT: Anything about what you heard or what you
remember that would make it difficult for you to sit fairly in
the case?
JUROR MITCHELL: No.
THE COURT: Others in the second row? Hands? No?
Third row? All right. Let's begin with Mr. Moore?
JUROR MOORE: I saw when it the case first broke on
the news last year, and I haven't really paid any attention to
it since then.
THE COURT: Anything about what you remember seeing
back then that would make it hard for you to sit fairly?
JUROR MOORE: No.
THE COURT: And I think Mr. Weber?
JUROR WEBER: Yes. I seen it in newspaper when it
first broke in the news.
THE COURT: Same question. Anything about what you
saw that would make it difficult for you to sit fairly?
Fifteen.
JUROR WEBER: No.
THE COURT: Anyone else?
In the back row, Miss Bonany?
JUROR BONANY: Just like everyone else, just on the
news when it broke late last year, and recently when it was
going to be coming to trial.
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THE COURT: Anything about what you heard that would
make it difficult for you to sit fairly to both sides?
JUROR BONANY: No, sir.
THE COURT: Anyone else that I missed know anything
about the case before coming to court today? Thank you.
Mr. Weber, I think you said your wife was the COO of
a roofing company, or maybe two?
JUROR SHAW: One.
THE COURT: One. All right. The company involved in
this case is a roofing company. Target Roofing Company. Do
you have any business or do you know if your wife has any
business with Target Roofing?
JUROR WEBER: I don't think we do.
THE COURT: How about Crowther Roofing?
JUROR WEBER: No.
THE COURT: Now, I read earlier a list of potential
witnesses. Does anyone think you may know any of those
witnesses? No one?
I think you're heard me explain the hours that I
anticipate we're going to have. Typically, we'll meet
at 9:00 o'clock, work til noon, break midmorning, lunch, and
then work 1:00 to 5:00 roughly, with a break in between.
With that kind of a schedule, does anyone have any
kind of impairment that needs to be accommodated?
Okay. Mr. Moore?
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JUROR MOORE: I have a doctors appointment tomorrow
at 8:30.
THE COURT: That's a little bit different issue, but
let's deal with that. How long would you anticipate that?
JUROR MOORE: I should be out of there in half an
hour.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Mr. Bailey?
JUROR BAILEY: I thought you said schedule conflicts,
and I have one for Wednesday. I have a job interview which is
really critical to my existence.
THE COURT: Okay. And that's Wednesday of this week?
JUROR BAILEY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Let's take schedule
conflicts.
In the back, then, Miss Bonany?
JUROR BONANY: I have an appointment that's
scheduled. I have to take my dog to Gainesville for some
specialty surgery that I've waited three months for this
appointment, and that is scheduled for Wednesday.
THE COURT: Okay. So if you're going to Gainesville,
that takes you out of pocket for a whole day, at least.
JUROR BONANY: Actually, we have to drive up tomorrow
night.
THE COURT: Anyone else in the back row? All right.
And, Ms. Alvarez, I see you.
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JUROR ALVAREZ: I am having difficulty with
transportation. My car broke down, and it's in the shop.
THE COURT: So your car is broke? And do you have
way of getting back and forth to court?
JUROR ALVAREZ: Today, yes.
THE COURT: How about tomorrow? I saw you go like
that, but I'm not sure how the record is going to . . . . Do
you know whether you can get here tomorrow?
JUROR ALVAREZ: I need to try.
THE COURT: Okay. You know, you have to get here for
the rest of the week, at least if you serve on the jury. Are
you going to be able to do that?
JUROR ALVAREZ: For the rest of the week?
THE COURT: Yes.
JUROR ALVAREZ: Probably.
THE COURT: Is that a yes?
MS. WAID: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
JUROR ALVAREZ: You're welcome.
THE COURT: Mr. Mitchell?
JUROR MITCHELL: I'm currently in a boot, and I have
a doctor's appointment tomorrow at 3:45. And I'm supposed to
get an MRI, but it's up in the air. So this all happened
pretty suddenly.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.
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Anyone else, schedule? Miss Cohen?
JUROR COHEN: I have my second COVID shot on
Thursday, at 2:45, and I also have physical therapy
at 3:00 o'clock on Wednesday.
THE COURT: The COVID shot, is that morning or
afternoon?
JUROR COHEN: 2:45 in the afternoon.
THE COURT: Oh, 2:45. Thank you.
All right. Anyone else? Schedule conflicts? Okay.
Do any of the 17 of you know one another before
coming to court today? No one?
Have of any you ever studied law? Again, no one.
Have any of you, or members of your family, ever
worked for the United States Government that you have not
mentioned already? No one.
Do any of you presently have any litigation pending
with or against the United States Government? No one?
Have you ever had any litigation pending with or
against the United States Government? Again, no one.
Do you anticipate such litigation with or against the
United States Government? Again, no one.
Do you have any matters pending in front of the
United States Attorney's Office of any kind? No one.
Have any of you, or members of your family, or close
personal friends, ever worked in law enforcement, that you
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haven't mentioned yet? No one?
Do any of you have particularly strong feelings about
law enforcement that would make it difficult for you to sit
fairly in a criminal case? Could be either positive or
negative. Doesn't matter.
Mr. Treyvus?
JUROR TREYVUS: Yes. In both cases it happened in
New York. The first one, my brother-in-law was told he was
dealing drugs. He was arrested. He lost his job and union
privileges. The case was dropped but his career was ruined.
Second time, it was somebody broke into my house and stole some
electronic devices. And we called the police, detectives came
in, did their job, and then I never heard from them. And I
tried to call, and no response, nothing. I mean, they were
both -- both occasion was in New York, not in Florida, but it
just left bad taste in my mouth.
THE COURT: All right. Is that something you can put
out of your mind, and judge the testimony of the witnesses.
JUROR TREYVUS: It's gonna be difficult to put it
this way.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.
Anyone else, strong feelings, pro or con, about law
enforcement or law enforcement officers? No one? All right.
Do any of have you any personal belief that would
make it difficult to sit in judgment of another person? No
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one?
You heard the instruction I read earlier this morning
in terms of what your function is. You're the trier of facts,
you're the only trier of facts in the case. The Court will
determine the law, and will instruct as the law which you must
follow.
I also told you that the burden of proof in this case
is upon the government, that the defendant literally doesn't
have to do anything. The government has the burden of proving
the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and if the
government fails to do that, you have to find the defendant not
guilty.
I also told you that a defendant is presumed
innocent, and literally, as I said, need not do a thing. The
defendant also has a constitutional right not to testify; and,
if the defendant exercises that right, you are not allowed to
draw any adverse inference from that.
Finally, I told you that your decision and your
verdicts had to be rendered calmly, fairly, and
dispassionately, based upon the evidence, and only the
evidence, not upon any other sentiment.
Is there anyone on the jury that could not follow
that instruction? No one?
Let me ask it a little bit differently. Can you
follow that instruction if you're selected in the case? All
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
right. I see all the heads nodding.
Have any of you done business with Target Roofing and
Sheet Metal, Inc.? No one?
Has anyone done business with Crowther Roofing? No
one?
Has anyone done business with Sanibel Captiva Bank?
Mr. Hochman?
JUROR HOCHMAN: I do my banking with them right now.
THE COURT: Okay. There may be witnesses or someone
from the bank may be a witness in the case. If that happens,
would that make any difference to you in terms of your ability
to sit fairly?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Not at all.
THE COURT: Have any of you had any contacts or
dealings with the U.S. Small Business Administration, SBA? No
one?
Ms. Cohen.
JUROR COHEN: Well, the PPP.
THE COURT: Getting right to that. My next question.
JUROR COHEN: I know.
THE COURT: Has anyone participated in the SBA PPP
Program? And, Miss Cohen, let's begin with you.
JUROR COHEN: Through my husband's psychology
practice, we secured an SBA PPP loan; and, as far as I know, to
this point we have submitted for the . . . what is it, for
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VOIR DIRE BY THE COURT
forgiveness? I don't know the status of it.
THE COURT: Okay.
And, Mr. Mitchell.
JUROR MITCHELL: Yes. My wife, through her business,
submitted for a PPP loan, and is going with the forgiveness as
well.
THE COURT: Do you know what the status of that is?
JUROR MITCHELL: I don't know.
THE COURT: Anyone else, either the PPP program or
SBA contacts?
Mr. Weber?
JUROR WEBER: My wife's business in Wisconsin, they
applied for a loan, they got it, and I think that it was
forgiven.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR WEBER: And I know that the company that she's
at now, she also got one.
THE COURT: Were you involved in that process?
JUROR WEBER: No.
THE COURT: All right.
Have any of you worked in the banking industry that
perhaps I haven't asked you about?
Okay. Mr. Moore?
JUROR MOORE: As a software developer, I worked for a
bank probably 30 years ago.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
THE COURT: All right.
And I think was it you, Mr. Hochman?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Yeah. I was a financial adviser with
Wells Fargo Advisers, and I worked in a bank. In a couple
different banks.
THE COURT: Okay.
Have we talked about not talking about the case with
anyone else? You've heard me say that multiple times? You've
heard me say you can't do your own independent research, you
can't get on the internet, you can't use your smartphone, if
you get a blurb, you have to cancel it out? You heard all of
that? Do I need to say it again to let you know how important
it is? No? And can everyone do it? All right. I see all the
heads nodding.
All right. Mr. Leeman?
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
Good afternoon everybody. It's getting late. I'm
sorry. I'll try to be quick.
My name is Mike Leeman. I'm a federal prosecutor in
Fort Myers.
I'll go person by person, I think. Mr. Treyvus, I
believe you're a limo driver. Is that a personal company of
yours?
JUROR TREYVUS: No. I work for the company.
MR. LEEMAN: Do you own the vehicle?
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
JUROR TREYVUS: No. I take out whatever vehicle is
assigned.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Is that a company that took
a PPP loan?
JUROR TREYVUS: No. I don't know, but I don't think
so. I wish they did.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. You said it would be more
difficult. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but my
understanding was it might be difficult to put past incidents
involving your brother out of your mind? He was -- I believe
you said he was falsely accused of dealing drugs, he was
exonerated, and, for that reason, you have strong feelings
about law enforcement?
JUROR TREYVUS: Well, what happened is, they found
out that he's illegal person. I can't blame law enforcement
for that. He's not using drugs. But, three years ago, he
passed away from overdose. But his whole job started from
that. And he came down here, he was electrician, he was
working as foreman for big company, and . . . he just got
fired. They did not do their investigation on their part or
the police. They just completely just dump him and kick him
out of the union, and that's how it all start.
MR. LEEMAN: What was the law enforcement agency
investigating that?
JUROR TREYVUS: It was NYPD.
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MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Rodriguez? A little bit? Sounds like you were,
at one time, in retail?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: When did that end?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: 2016?
MR. LEEMAN: 2016?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.
MR. LEEMAN: And, most recently, you did what?
JUROR TREYVUS: Well, I worked as cake decorator for
Publix.
MR. LEEMAN: Ah, for Publix. Okay. But you no
longer work for Publix.
JUROR TREYVUS: No.
MR. LEEMAN: When did that end?
JUROR TREYVUS: Two years ago. Right after that, I
wanted to start my own company, and then it didn't really work
out, so I never really finished it, and then COVID-19 came, so
I canceled the whole process of it.
MR. LEEMAN: So, in some sense, you're unemployed
because of what's been going on with the pandemic?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Kind of, yeah.
MR. LEEMAN: Understood. But do you have a
bachelor's in computer science, as well.
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
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MR. LEEMAN: Mr. Hochman. Most of interest to me,
you bank with Sanibel Captiva Bank?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Is that a personal banking relationship?
JUROR HOCHMAN: I have both personal and business
accounts there, but I have not done any business there except
for checking accounts.
MR. LEEMAN: You just have accounts there?
JUROR HOCHMAN: That's correct.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. You're not interfacing with
members of the bank to seek loans or things like that?
JUROR HOCHMAN: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Would you even know the name of a single
person at the bank?
JUROR HOCHMAN: I know there was a guy that I used to
work out with in the same gym, but beyond that I don't know his
name.
MR. LEEMAN: So the extent of it was he went to the
gym at the same time as you.
JUROR HOCHMAN: Correct.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. The fitness company, I did not
have -- I have you as the owner of it. I did not hear that you
had taken PPP loans for it?
JUROR HOCHMAN: I just launched it, so it wasn't
something that I would have been able to.
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MR. LEEMAN: It's new.
JUROR HOCHMAN: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Your wife is a pharmacist?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Nuclear pharmacist. And she is my
fiancée. Don't push it.
MR. LEEMAN: Does she work on her own, or is it part
of --
JUROR HOCHMAN: No, no. She works for Visar.
MR. LEEMAN: That's a what? Some of these things
I --
JUROR HOCHMAN: It's a joint between Lee Memorial or
Lee, I guess now, and Sarasota Hospital.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Follow that.
The subpoena in the quid pro quo case, I don't really
care to know what it's about, but were you subpoenaed as a
witness or as something else?
JUROR HOCHMAN: I don't know if I can really answer
that. Because I was involved with what was going on and they
called me, they called me in to ask me questions about it. But
I was not being . . . . I don't know the terminology. I
wasn't being tried for anything. They did tell me, if they
uncovered anything new in the process that was criminal, that
could change things.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay.
JUROR HOCHMAN: But no, I think I was just there as a
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witness. And it didn't go any further. I didn't go in front
of a grand jury.
MR. LEEMAN: And this was a federal subpoena?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Um-hum.
MR. LEEMAN: And the case, as you understand it, was
pending in the District of Massachusetts?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Yeah. I flew up to Boston for it.
MR. LEEMAN: Was anyone ever charged?
JUROR HOCHMAN: It was pharmaceutical company, and
they were found -- I don't know if they were found guilty, but
there was a huge fine. It was a whistle blower case. It
stemmed from one of my teammates. I was a sales rep.
MR. LEEMAN: Was it a civil case or a criminal case?
JUROR HOCHMAN: I don't know.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. That's fine.
JUROR HOCHMAN: Can a company be charged in a civil
case? I don't know how that works.
MR. LEEMAN: Fair enough. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Nieves, you worked for Target.
JUROR NIEVES: Target Corporation; correct.
MR. LEEMAN: Got it. Wife works for a local credit
union? Which one?
JUROR NIEVES: Suncoast Credit Union.
MR. LEEMAN: What does she do there?
JUROR NIEVES: She is a supervisor for the ITM
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department. They are their own standalone thing. Basically,
you drive up to the bank, and see the teller's face. She
operates as a supervisor for that branch.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Do you know if she had any role
in providing/facilitating PPP loans?
JUROR HOCHMAN: It doesn't pertain to her specific
job. It's just the transactions, and monitoring units.
MR. LEEMAN: So you don't have any special insight
into how PPP loans work?
JUROR HOCHMAN: No. All we talk about is our
employees' performance and how they don't meet our
expectations.
MR. LEEMAN: Got it.
Mr. Panzegraf. I thought I saw you raising your hand
a little bit when they were talking about if you had heard
anything about this case, but I don't think you got called on.
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Media. Just the media.
MR. LEEMAN: Just media. And is there anything about
what you've heard that would prevent from you sitting here and
being a fair and impartial juror?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Your worked as a private investigator,
that was in Chicago?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: You mentioned most of it was wayward
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spouses?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Domestic. Chasing wayward spouses.
MR. LEEMAN: Yeah? Okay. But you did mention some
criminal stuff. Could you give us a little insight into what
that was?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Staking out a drugstore, watching
for employee theft. Catch them on occasion.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Were you ever hired by defense
attorneys in a criminal case to be an expert?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: The attorneys did do both work, so
yes.
MR. LEEMAN: So you were hired by defense attorneys
to be an investigator?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Sure.
MR. LEEMAN: In a criminal case.
JUROR HOCHMAN: In a criminal case.
MR. LEEMAN: You don't do that line of work anymore
though?
MR. DICKERSON: No.
MR. LEEMAN: You never did it here, locally?
JUROR HOCHMAN: No.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
I'm going to continue down the line, even though I
think you're technically the last. Ms. Cohen?
JUROR COHEN: Yes.
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MR. LEEMAN: Your husband's company, or you and your
husband's company, sounds like it received a PPP loan?
JUROR COHEN: Yes. The psychology practice.
MR. LEEMAN: And did you have a role . . . sounds
like you applied for forgiveness, it may not -- it's still in
the process; is that right?
JUROR COHEN: I haven't even asked my husband in the
last few months. I know he filed the paperwork. I know that
they got back to him to make sure that if he needed to provide
additional support paperwork. That's honestly . . . .
MR. LEEMAN: So you're just out of the loop right
now.
JUROR COHEN: Yeah. I just haven't asked him about
it.
MR. LEEMAN: Did you have a role in filling out any
of the paperwork that was required to get the loan?
JUROR COHEN: I can't remember, to be honest,
because, the way the company is structured, somehow it's also
tied to our personal thing, so I don't remember if I had to
sign off on it or not.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. All right. Fair enough.
JUROR COHEN: We got it, though.
MR. LEEMAN: You're a teacher. You teach what?
JUROR COHEN: Science, biology, and genetics.
MR. LEEMAN: High school?
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JUROR COHEN: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you.
Miss Klein? Bonita Springs resident. Teacher.
Retired. You didn't say what you taught either.
JUROR KLEIN: I had a double degree in elementary
education and speech therapy, so I did both of those. Not at
the same time but.
MR. LEEMAN: Tell me about this hospital board you
served on. Was that something you sort of -- tell me about it,
I guess.
JUROR KLEIN: Well, I was on the board for 37 years.
Most of those, I was chairman of the board. I was probably on
the hospital board not because I had any medical background,
not nursing, not medical, but I had served on other boards in
the community, and somehow they thought I -- I had something to
offer.
MR. LEEMAN: Did a good job. Okay. Your husband was
banker, and you mentioned that he did investments. Was he an
investment banker?
JUROR KLEIN: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Who did he work for?
JUROR KLEIN: He had his own business.
MR. LEEMAN: Where was that?
JUROR GRALEY: In Kalamazoo, Michigan.
MR. LEEMAN: No longer doing that?
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JUROR COHEN: No. He's well retired.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. No further questions, Miss Klein.
Thank you very much.
Ms. Alvarez. I don't have any questions for you.
Sorry.
Mr. Anderson next. Railroad manager. Dealing with
rules and operations of some particular railroad. Was that a
government job, I guess that -- I know there's a lot of
interplay sometimes.
JUROR ANDERSON: No. Worked for the railroad
company.
MR. LEEMAN: You worked for a private railroad
company?
JUROR ANDERSON: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: When did you retire?
JUROR ANDERSON: 2012.
MR. LEEMAN: Been living the retired life since then?
JUROR ANDERSON: I did some consulting again,
basically teaching new hires on the railroad how to work
without getting hurt, for about two years, and then been living
the retired life ever since.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Mitchell? Your wife, I had written down your
wife, independent travel consultant. Could you tell me what
that is?
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
JUROR MITCHELL: Travel agent.
MR. LEEMAN: Travel agent.
JUROR MITCHELL: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Did she have her own travel agency.
JUROR MITCHELL: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: And my understanding is she did take a
PPP loan?
JUROR MITCHELL: Yes; as an independent contractor.
MR. LEEMAN: Did you help in any way with her
procuring that loan?
JUROR MITCHELL: No, I didn't.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Did she talk to you about
the process, at all? I mean, are you, in any way, familiar
with it because of your talks with her?
JUROR MITCHELL: I am somewhat familiar, just in an
ancillary regard and hearing some of the things she may have
shared, and frustration, or something like that.
MR. LEEMAN: You didn't help her fill out any of the
paperwork?
JUROR ANDERSON: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Did you look at any of the paperwork?
JUROR ANDERSON: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, sir.
Ms. Shaw?
JUROR SHAW: Yes.
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MR. LEEMAN: Physical therapist assistant.
JUROR SHAW: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Are you working for an entity or working
for yourself? How does that work?
JUROR SHAW: I work for Naples Community Hospital.
MR. LEEMAN: Big hospital?
JUROR SHAW: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Did they take PPP?
JUROR SHAW: That I don't know.
MR. LEEMAN: That you know of?
JUROR SHAW: I have no idea.
MR. LEEMAN: Husband also works for the county,
government agency?
JUROR SHAW: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. I don't have any further
questions for you.
Ms. King. All right. Thank you. You work for the
county, as well.
JUROR KING: Yes, I do.
MR. LEEMAN: And your husband works for the county as
well?
JUROR KING: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: I don't have any questions for you.
Thank you.
Mr. Kaufman. Your wife is a teacher.
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JUROR KING: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: And you are a retired regional sales
director. When did you retire, sir?
JUROR KAUFMAN: The end of November.
MR. LEEMAN: End of November, 2020?
JUROR KING: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: And the company?
JUROR KING: The company was Guess Supply. It's
owned by Cisco Food.
MR. LEEMAN: What does it supply? Foods?
JUROR KING: They supply hospitality products.
Towels, and sheets, and manufacture products.
MR. LEEMAN: Understood. Okay. When you were
employed there, I don't know the size of that company, strikes
me as big. It's large company?
JUROR KING: Yeah. I think another a worldwide
company.
MR. LEEMAN: It didn't get PPP funds that you know?
JUROR KING: No. They just let people go.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Thank you, sir.
Miss Bonany? Mortgage loan originator.
JUROR BONANY: Yes, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: Are you still employed as that.
JUROR BONANY: Oh, yes, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: How long have you been doing that for?
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
JUROR BONANY: Ten years.
MR. LEEMAN: Ten years. Okay. Husband is a
distributor at an aluminum company is what I wrote down, but
you were talking fast.
JUROR BONANY: I'm sorry. He's a supervisor at an
aluminum distribution company.
MR. LEEMAN: Is that a big company, small company?
JUROR BONANY: It is. It is part of a nationwide
company. Over 10,000 employees.
MR. LEEMAN: I'd say that's pretty big. Thank you.
Mr. Weber, PPP for wife's business. I think the
Judge did specifically ask you, you didn't pay a role in
filling it out in any way?
JUROR WEBER: No.
MR. LEEMAN: How about dinnertime conversation about
the PPP program? Did you guys sit down and have fun like that,
or not?
JUROR WEBER: She told me she applied for it.
MR. LEEMAN: As far as the details go?
JUROR KING: No.
MR. LEEMAN: All right. Let me ask you this.
Mr. Crowther is on trial here. He's presumed innocent. But he
owns a roofing company, as well. Had you heard of that roofing
company? Is it a competitor of where your wife works?
JUROR WEBER: I never heard of that one. I've heard
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of Crowther, the other one.
MR. LEEMAN: I mean, is Crowther Roofing a competitor
of where your wife works?
JUROR WEBER: I'm sure they are. Every roofing
company would be.
MR. LEEMAN: I don't know, but okay.
MR. DICKERSON: Because their company is pretty big
too.
MR. LEEMAN: What is the name of the roofing company?
JUROR KING: Island Roofing.
MR. LEEMAN: Island Roofing. Let me make sure that
was it.
All right. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Bailey?
JUROR BAILEY: Yes, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: Second to last. Have a job interview
coming up on Wednesday?
JUROR BAILEY: That's correct, sir.
MR. LEEMAN: For what type of a job?
JUROR BAILEY: It's for like a manager in a
greenhouse facility.
MR. LEEMAN: Sounds like similar to what you were
doing before.
JUROR BAILEY: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Your child is a private investigator.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
What can you tell us about that?
JUROR BAILEY: He used to work for Chase America, and
then he's working for a company out of Kentucky. He works from
home, but I don't really know the details of what his work
entails.
MR. LEEMAN: You don't know, sort of broadly, what he
investigates?
JUROR BAILEY: I know he investigates insurance
claims or insurance fraud. That's one thing I know he
investigates.
MR. LEEMAN: Does he get hired by attorneys of any
type?
JUROR BAILEY: No.
MR. LEEMAN: Maybe he's hired by insurance companies?
JUROR BAILEY: It's not an insurance company, it's a
company that does -- that's all he does, private investigation,
and he's hired as one of their private investigators, so it's a
nationwide company. I'm not sure of the details of his
involvement with that.
MR. LEEMAN: That's okay. Thank you, sir.
And, last but not least, Mr. Moore? Retired software
developer. When did you retire, sir?
JUROR MOORE: 2016.
MR. LEEMAN: 2016. You haven't really worked since
then?
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
JUROR MOORE: I've done some consulting part-time.
MR. LEEMAN: Software type stuff?
JUROR MOORE: Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Your wife is a retired nurse. Okay. I
don't have any questions for you.
Let me just sort of wrap this up broadly. You've all
heard it now, I'm not going to dwell on exactly what I'm trying
to get at here, but I've asked if you all have been a victim of
a crime, specifically some type of a theft crime, or something
related to theft, whether it's a burglary, or a robbery, or a
fraud, something where you are deprived of your property by
another. You, or your significant other, or close member of
your family. Anybody have anything like that, that we can talk
about?
All right. We're going to go through quickly.
Mr. Treyvus, just tell me about it briefly, if you
would.
JUROR TREYVUS: I explained that, just broken into my
house and stealing all the electronic devices.
MR. LEEMAN: But you never got the callback. Was
that an NYPD case, as well?
JUROR TREYVUS: Yup.
MR. LEEMAN: If the NYPD isn't involved in this case,
are you going to have any issue with law enforcement that might
be involved?
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JUROR TREYVUS: I don't want to say no, but I might.
MR. LEEMAN: You might?
JUROR TREYVUS: Yeah.
MR. LEEMAN: Why, just because the situation angered
you so much?
JUROR TREYVUS: Just happened back to back after my
brother-in-law, and just -- you know, like I said, just left a
bad taste in my mouth.
MR. LEEMAN: Fair enough.
Let's go down the line. Anyone else in the front
row? I believe Mr. Hochman?
JUROR HOCHMAN: I had a restaurant that was robbed a
few times.
MR. LEEMAN: A what was robbed?
JUROR HOCHMAN: A restaurant.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Robbed, or burgled? I don't know
if burgled's a word.
JUROR HOCHMAN: Broken into at night.
MR. LEEMAN: Broken into at night.
JUROR HOCHMAN: Took whatever was in the register and
whatnot.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay police do anything about it?
JUROR HOCHMAN: It was never resolved. I have no
animosity about it.
MR. LEEMAN: No animosity toward law enforcement.
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VOIR DIRE BY MR. LEEMAN
Okay.
Miss Cohen.
JUROR COHEN: Just credit card. But no dealings with
any law enforcement for it.
MR. LEEMAN: Did you even report it to law
enforcement?
JUROR COHEN: No.
MR. LEEMAN: But you have had somebody get some money
out of some cards you had, or accounts you had.
JUROR COHEN: Um-hum.
MR. LEEMAN: Fair enough.
Mr. Mitchell?
JUROR MITCHELL: Just my wife was a victim of
identity theft. We did call the authorities, and they came and
did what they could, but in the end it was a lot of footwork on
our part. It was very frustrating.
MR. LEEMAN: Did she get her money back?
JUROR MITCHELL: She did.
MR. LEEMAN: She did get her money back?
JUROR MITCHELL: She did.
MR. LEEMAN: What authorities did you speak to?
JUROR MITCHELL: Collier County Sheriff's Department
sent out a community services rep, and he was helpful. It
worked out as best as we could, but we never heard whether he
was ever caught.
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MR. LEEMAN: So no animosity against law enforcement
for that incident.
How about if a person is accused of a theft type
crime? Would you be able to set that incident aside and give
them a fair trial?
JUROR MITCHELL: I would be able to.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you.
Who else do we have? Anyone else? Mr. Kaufman?
JUROR KAUFMAN: Our house was burgled by a couple of
teenagers a couple of years ago. They stole some electronics,
money. They were caught in the house down the street by the
guy that was there. The police did a good job, sent the kids
to Oklahoma, to some camp, never saw them again.
MR. LEEMAN: Sounds like you don't have police
animosity from that. How about would you be able to set aside
any feelings you had for someone that might take the money of
others and give someone accused of something like a fair trial?
JUROR KAUFMAN: Fair trial, yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Also in the top row, Mr. Weber.
JUROR WEBER: I have a cabinet shop that was broken
into. Stole some equipment. I barely remember the details,
25 years ago.
MR. LEEMAN: Does it stand to reason that it's not
going to sway you a lot in one way or the other.
JUROR WEBER: It won't sway me.
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MR. LEEMAN: Okay. That's good. Thank you for
telling me.
Anyone else in the back row. All right.
Your Honor, may I just have a second?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you.
Mr. Hochman, just to follow up on the grand jury
subpoena, or the subpoena question, sounds like we don't
exactly know what it was. Was there anything about that
experience that you went through -- and I can't specify,
because I don't know a whole lot about it, but was there
anything that left a bad taste in your mouth about the U.S.
Government that the government couldn't be assured of a fair
trial in this case either?
JUROR HOCHMAN: No. That's not a problem.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Dickerson?
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
You've all heard my questions down in the room over
the intercom, so I'm going to try to cut to the chase as
quickly as we can here.
Good evening, first.
Mr. Treyvus, I understand the issue you have with the
New York Police Department. There's no New York Police
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Department here.
JUROR TREYVUS: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: I'm unaware of any police department
being a witness. We do have a Secret Service agent.
The fact that this is the Federal Government, which
is different than the New York Police Department, would that
enable you to look at the government and the defendant and not
have any bias towards either one of them?
JUROR TREYVUS: I don't know the answer to that.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So you can't say, before this
trial starts, that you could be --
JUROR TREYVUS: I cannot say definitely yes or no.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. How long ago was it with
the New York Police Department?
JUROR TREYVUS: One occasion was like six or
seven years ago, and the other one was a year ago.
MR. DICKERSON: So both within six to eight years?
JUROR TREYVUS: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Mr. Rodriguez, you mentioned you were
on Twitter when you saw media about Mr. Crowther. Did you do
any sharing, comments, did you read comments, did you look into
it?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, I did read some comments, but
it was mostly like local trending news. I did not understand
exactly what it was at the time. And then, when I clicked on
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it, saw some opinions on it. I didn't share, didn't have any
opinion on it at all. It didn't effect me personally. I just
knew about it because it was news. You know, my reading that.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And you don't have any
recollection what those comments were?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Most of them were negative at the
time.
MR. DICKERSON: Mr. Crowther, sitting here right now,
and with what the Judge said, that Mr. Crowther is presumed
innocent, the government's burden of proofing beyond a
reasonable doubt, do you see Mr. Crowther here as an innocent
man?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: I would say yes, because I can't
really judge him on anything other than what other people said.
I don't have my own opinion on it because I haven't heard any
evidence, obviously. Also, other people's opinions are not
really affecting, in the sense, because I just read things. I
don't form an opinion over other people's opinions.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So you think that you could
represent to the Judge and all of us here that you wouldn't
have any bias or prejudice about Mr. Crowther from what you've
already read before coming to this case?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: I would not have any explicit bias,
but it would be in the back of my mind, what I read; but it
wouldn't be something -- if I heard enough information, I
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probably would make it whatever opinion I would have got.
MR. DICKERSON: So are you saying you already have an
opinion in the back of your mind, right now, and you gotta hear
evidence and information to change that opinion?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Not to change, but you know how,
when you have an impression? That's what I should say. Like
an impression that I have from other people's writing? But
that's about it. I don't have an actual full opinion on it.
MR. DICKERSON: So you do have an impression.
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: I have as impression; yes.
MR. DICKERSON: And that impression is going to
influence you?
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: When you have an impression of
something, that's what you're thinking in the back of your mind
at the time. But I don't have any negative bias towards him.
I don't feel anything toward him.
MR. DICKERSON: All right.
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: You know what I mean? It's just
kind of like you heard something, but you don't really know
what's going on.
MR. DICKERSON: Right, but if I got an impression
when I go into something, instead of having a clean slate,
which is zero, I don't, I've got this impression, so I'm
requiring something to explain my previous impression before I
get to that clean slate.
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JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: So you've got --
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yes, I have that part, yes.
MR. DICKERSON: So you're not a clean slate, you have
an impression.
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: So we have to get to the clean slate
before we get this burden.
JUROR RODRIGUEZ: I guess. I'm sorry.
MR. DICKERSON: No reason to apologize. Don't
apologize. Thank you very much.
Mr. Hochman. Who are you a sales rep form?
JUROR HOCHMAN: Sanofi.
MR. DICKERSON: Sanofi. Okay. Was it over the
Hyalgan products? Bingo. All right. You're a Wells Fargo
adviser. When did you stop doing that?
JUROR HOCHMAN: 2016, I think, 2017, somewhere in
there.
MR. DICKERSON: And were you working for the --
JUROR HOCHMAN: I was employed by Wells Fargo
Advisers. They draw a very distinct line.
MR. DICKERSON: I get it. It's investment, not a
bank.
JUROR HOCHMAN: But they had one of their business
lines worked in the bank. So I didn't report to anybody in the
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bank, I reported to wealth management, which is down in Naples,
but I actually was just posted in the office.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And so since you were inside
the branch, you had no idea what that branch was doing as far
as anything -- mortgages anything like that, how it's done.
Well, that's a poor question. That's a poor question.
With your experience, you didn't have direct
experience with the paperwork and documentation that's needed
for closing of business loans or anything in that regard.
JUROR HOCHMAN: Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Did you -- on the investment
side, did you guys allow loans on like options, and loans on
the actual account, the private banking account?
JUROR HOCHMAN: On the brokerage side.
MR. DICKERSON: The brokerage side, yes. You were
involved in that.
JUROR HOCHMAN: If a client wanted to do that, yeah.
MR. DICKERSON: But you weren't involved in actually
getting all the paperwork together, all the loan documents to
do it.
JUROR HOCHMAN: I didn't like doing those,
personally, so I didn't do them.
MR. DICKERSON: Why didn't you like doing them?
JUROR HOCHMAN: They were risky.
MR. DICKERSON: You didn't like doing the loans
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because it was risky based on the account.
JUROR HOCHMAN: Right; the decision I was making for
my clients.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Thank you.
I'm going real quick, Mr. Nieves, to see if I have
anything on here. I will simply say I don't have any questions
for you.
Mr. Panzegraf, with the private investigator, how
much work did you do for defense lawyers? Criminal defense
lawyers. Smidgen? Like got a pia, ten percent of the pie,
20 percent?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Ten or less.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Go back a little. I'll come
back. I know I'm going to come back to you, I think. Are you
a fisherman?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: I am.
MR. DICKERSON: I'll just do it now then.
JUROR PANZEGRAF: I have a boat, too.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you have any boats?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Yup.
MR. DICKERSON: What kind of boat do you have?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: I have a center console.
MR. DICKERSON: How many times? One boat? You got
Lake Michigan up there in Chicago.
JUROR PANZEGRAF: I had a boat up there, but
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primarily down here.
MR. DICKERSON: What's your experience with your
boats?
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Lot of harbor fishing. Only a
25-footer. I don't go out in the gulf much. Once a week. I
hang with fishermen.
MR. DICKERSON: Hang with guys on boats? You like
your boat, and you like fishing.
JUROR PANZEGRAF: Yup.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you.
Miss Cohen.
JUROR COHEN: Um-hum.
MR. DICKERSON: You didn't do anything with the
paperwork, that you recall, as far as signing off on a PPP;
right?
JUROR COHEN: Right. I know what was covered, like I
know what it was supposed to be used for; but in terms of how
it was dealt with, I didn't.
MR. DICKERSON: What do you mean, you know what it
was supposed to be used for?
JUROR COHEN: Payroll. I know it had a certain
percent that it was supposed to be, I know it also changed
during the process of what the percent should have been.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you recall what that change was?
JUROR COHEN: I think they made it that less had to
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be used for payroll and more could be used for other things.
MR. DICKERSON: And you said your husband did file
for forgiveness.
JUROR COHEN: Um-hum.
MR. DICKERSON: Do you understand that, if you didn't
file for forgiveness, he would have to pay that loan back?
JUROR COHEN: Um-hum. That's why I questioned him
about it.
MR. DICKERSON: And what do you mean, questioned him
about it?
JUROR COHEN: To make sure that, okay, you don't have
to do only for this, not this.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So when you . . . you made the
comment you saw it on the news, you saw it in the news, and
then you had a conversation with your husband saying this is
what it's got to be used for, you have to use it for this to be
able to apply for forgiveness?
JUROR COHEN: No. I mean we had had the
conversations before, about applying for it, and what it could
be used for, how it was going to be used. And then, when we
were watching the news, it was just kind of like what it was
allegedly used for it.
MR. DICKERSON: Um-hum. And did you understand that
the money was to be used for the purpose, like you said, the
payroll, over the 24, weeks or did you have an understanding of
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that?
JUROR COHEN: I did have an understanding that it was
to cover a certain amount of time, and it had to be within
certain limits; yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And that experience, nothing
about your experience with the PPP loan, your husband's PPP
loan, influence or change your ability to be fair and impartial
today. Pardon me. Not today. This week.
JUROR COHEN: No.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you.
Miss Klein, how are you doing? The board position
that you had, the chairman for nine years, and were you on the
board for 37 years? How much accounting did you really go
into, as the chairman of the board, as far as the profits and
losses of the board, and reporting as far as a nonprofit?
JUROR KLEIN: Sitting on the finance committee, but I
relied on other people. I have no background in accounting.
MR. DICKERSON: So you're a teacher, chairman of the
board, you're relying upon the finance committee and those
people that know about that to handle it; correct?
JUROR KLEIN: Absolutely.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And so you weren't necessarily
getting the nitty-gritty of that aspect as the board president,
you were letting them do it?
JUROR KLEIN: I only became familiar with it, with
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the issues.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Since you were a teacher, you
weren't a finance person, you let the finance people handle it.
JUROR KLEIN: Right. I'm more of a governance issue.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. And what do you mean by
governance?
JUROR KLEIN: Making sure that they administer the
rules correctly.
MR. DICKERSON: The rules of the nonprofit, or the
rules of the 501(c)(3)?
JUROR KLEIN: Well, both. They're both involved.
MR. DICKERSON: All right.
JUROR KLEIN: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, ma'am.
Miss Alvarez. With the car situation, are you having
to like use a taxi to get here, or how are you getting to
court? With the Judge's question, you were hoping to get here
tomorrow.
JUROR ALVAREZ: No. Today I use the company car to
come here. I'm not supposed to do that. It's not for personal
use.
MR. DICKERSON: So you used your company's car for
the mental health counseling part to get here, and you're not
supposed to?
JUROR ALVAREZ: Yes.
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MR. DICKERSON: Do you have any way to get here
tomorrow, without using the company's car when you're not
supposed to?
JUROR ALVAREZ: No.
MR. DICKERSON: So, if you were to come here, you
would have to pay for a cab, or Uber, or something to get here?
JUROR ALVAREZ: I'm sorry?
MR. DICKERSON: If you didn't use your company's car,
you would have to pay money to either a cab driver or an Uber
to get here?
JUROR ALVAREZ: No.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. How would you get here then?
JUROR ALVAREZ: How would I get here?
MR. DICKERSON: Yeah.
JUROR ALVAREZ: I don't know.
MR. DICKERSON: So, right now, you don't know how
you're going to get here tomorrow if you're chosen for the
jury.
JUROR ALVAREZ: Exactly.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you.
Mr. Anderson. With your experience in the railroad,
working for the private company, and dealing with the federal
rules and regulations as it applies to railroad, how simple is
that versus how complicated is that?
JUROR ANDERSON: Depends on the regulation.
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Difficult because you would get different interpretations on
the regulations from different inspectors, but simple in the
fact that there's only certain things that we do, and certain
ways to do them, so.
MR. DICKERSON: So how would you deal with if you had
a different interpretation by different inspectors on the same
issue.
JUROR ANDERSON: I'd fly to Washington, D.C. for
help.
MR. DICKERSON: Who in Washington, D.C. could tell
you that?
JUROR ANDERSON: Well, we applied for help on one
issue in 2007, and in 2012, when I retired, we still hadn't
gotten an answer back.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. And how about this, I
gotta hit you four first, again, but if you have a boat, I'm
going through, just let me -- all right, you've got a boat?
JUROR ANDERSON: Yup. Got a boat. My sixth boat.
I'll never make any money off it. I love my boat. 22-foot
pontoon.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. So you're not buying your boat
for any type of investment, you're just buying your boat to
enjoy it.
JUROR ANDERSON: I'm not a fisherman, but I like to
go out on a little booze cruise sometimes.
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MR. DICKERSON: Responsible booze cruise; right?
Okay.
How about you four? Do any of you have boats?
Miss Klein? All right. Yeah? I knew about your boat. We
talked about your boat. Unless you got something else to say.
JUROR ANDERSON: You're welcome to come out on it.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you.
Mr. Mitchell.
JUROR MITCHELL: Yes, sir.
MR. DICKERSON: You mentioned in discussion with
Mr. Leeman about your wife discussing the frustration of PPP.
What did you mean by that frustration?
JUROR MITCHELL: Well, in her case, she has a travel
agency. It was more frustration due to COVID. You know,
nobody is booking, you're making cancellations. And she also
had to home school the kids at the time. And I was trying to
help with that, although I was still working, because I was
working for the city. So it was just general frustration of
having to work through that process along with everything else
that was going on.
MR. DICKERSON: So the process of doing the
application, getting the documentation in, the proof, in that
process?
JUROR MITCHELL: Getting everything done and -- you
know, she didn't really discuss most of that with me, but I
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could overhear those conversations as I was trying to home
school our kids, so I was aware of that some of the -- you
know, some of her conversations with other people who worked in
her field, in her industry, trying to give her pointers.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And, since this case has
nothing do with the travel world agency, what you heard, you
could push that aside if you're hearing a different type of
business, and the PPP program for businesses versus independent
contractors?
JUROR MITCHELL: Right.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Thank you.
I don't have anything for you. I'm good with
everything you had to answer.
JUROR SHAW: All right. Works for me.
MR. DICKERSON: And, Ms. King, the only question I
have for you is, you and your husband are both working for a
government agency, granted county government. Do you, when you
see a case here where it's the United States Government versus
an individual, since you work for a government agency, do you
put more weight on the government agency than the nongovernment
agency? Okay.
Mr. Mitchell, how about you? Same question? Because
you've got Naples parks, and you work for a city government.
If you see a government agency versus a citizen, do you give
more weight to the government just because you work with a
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government?
JUROR MITCHELL: No.
MR. DICKERSON: All right.
And your answer was no, Miss King?
JUROR KING: No.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you. I'm trying to hurry up.
Mr. Kaufman. What congressman does your 25-year-old
work for?
JUROR KAUFMAN: He works for Johnny Garrett, who is a
state congressman from the Murphysboro area, just outside
Nashville.
MR. DICKERSON: And with your experience working for
Guess Supply and Cisco Foods, did that with the PPP, you don't
know about any PPP application from Guess Services or Guess
Supply, so you really had no knowledge of whether PPP impacted
your employer's business at all; correct?
JUROR KAUFMAN: No, I did not. I would have no way.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay.
JUROR KAUFMAN: I was on this part of the company and
they were over there.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. Thank you.
Ms. Bonany, what kind of dog do you have?
JUROR BONANY: He's a Labrador Retriever.
MR. DICKERSON: How old?
JUROR BONANY: He just turned four. He doesn't
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produce any tears, so this surgery is a specialized surgery
that's gonna be done at the veterinary college, where there's
an eye specialist. They're going to redirect one of his saliva
glands up to his eye to lubricate it.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. I wish you best of luck with
that.
JUROR BONANY: Thank you.
MR. DICKERSON: Mr. Weber, Island Roofing, never
heard of Target, so you don't think there's an issue in your
mind as far as going back to your wife and saying hey, this is
Target Roofing, this may we one of your competitors.
JUROR WEBER: No. You told me not to talk about it.
I won't talk about it.
MR. DICKERSON: But it's your wife.
JUROR WEBER: When I read it in the paper, I asked
her if she knew who they were.
MR. DICKERSON: What did she say?
JUROR WEBER: She didn't know Target, but she did
know Crowther. Everybody knows Crowther.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Weber.
Mr. Bailey. Job interview. First job interview in a
while. When did you stop working in Felva?
JUROR BAILEY: The company closed its site in
December last year, so I been job hunting since January of
this year.
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MR. DICKERSON: Is this your first interview since
January?
JUROR BAILEY: No. I had two more interviews. This
is the third with this company.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. So it's a callback
interview.
JUROR BAILEY: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: All right. Thank you.
Only thing, Mr. Moore, are you do consulting
part-time, do you have a company that does that?
JUROR MOORE: Self-employed.
MR. DICKERSON: Under a company, or just do it on
your own?
JUROR MOORE: Just do it on any own.
MR. DICKERSON: So that wouldn't have any ability for
PPP.
JUROR MOORE: No. Darn it.
MR. DICKERSON: What did you say? I didn't hear.
JUROR MOORE: Darn it.
MR. DICKERSON: One second, Your Honor.
Mr. Mitchell, your MRI is tomorrow; right?
JUROR MITCHELL: No. I have an appointment on
Wednesday. I'm trying to get an MRI to get this thing off of
my foot. But it's like, last week, I got it put on at the end
of the week, and so he wants the MRI done so if he knows if
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CAUSE CHALLENGES
there's a tear on the Achilles. So, until then, I have to wear
the boot. I was hoping to get it off Saturday, but the
insurance company wouldn't approve it at that quick notice.
MR. DICKERSON: So you may have torn your Achilles.
JUROR MITCHELL: Not fully. Maybe a partial tear.
MR. DICKERSON: And that appointment is probably down
in Naples?
JUROR MITCHELL: Yes. The MRI would be in Naples,
Estero, for the podiatrist.
MR. DICKERSON: A 3:45 appointment in Estero?
JUROR MITCHELL: That's in Estero, yes.
MR. DICKERSON: Nothing else, Your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: Counsel, if you'd take a look at your
notes, and when you're ready, we'll proceed.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, if you need to
stand and stretch, now is a good time to do it.
AT SIDEBAR
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Leeman? Challenges for
cause, if any?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor. We would seek to
strike Juror Number 33, Mr. Treyvus, for cause. He's indicated
that he cannot treat law enforcement fairly, and the reasons
for that are some pretty raw sounding circumstances, including
his brother perhaps becoming addicted to drugs because he was
falsely accused by law enforcement.
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THE COURT: Any objection from the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: I have nothing to go against that,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: The Court will grant the challenge for
cause for Mr. Treyvus, which is your 33, my Number 1 this time
around.
Any other challenges for cause?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: From the defense, challenges for cause?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor. I think Juror
Number 2, 34, Mr. Rodriguez, also stated he did not have a
clean slate, at all. He's got that in the back of his mind.
He even said that we're going to have to go above to get the
clear slate. So I think he's got a bias already, before we
even start.
THE COURT: Any objection from the government?
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, I don't believe a juror is
required to start with a quote unquote clean slate. Everybody
brings something with them. He's indicated that he could be
fair and impartial, which I believe is the proper test, so we
do object to striking him for cause.
MR. DICKERSON: If I may, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. DICKERSON: He specifically got his information
from social media, Twitter, the comments. That's the thing
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that we're very concerned about. So his mindset is from going
to Twitter and reading comments and having that perception
already. He said that, that he has a mindset already.
THE COURT: The only reason you're going to prevail
on your cause is his testimony with regard to going to Twitter
and comments distinguish him from some of the others who just
heard the news and various other newspapers. The lack of a
clean slate, I suspect he was getting a little bit
philosophical with you. But he said what he said, and, given
the Twitter source, I do find that the challenge for cause is
appropriate, so that will be granted.
Any other challenges for cause from the defendant?
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, Miss Alvarez doesn't have
any manner in which how she's going to get here tomorrow or any
other day except using her company vehicle, which she's not
supposed to use, which she used today to get here.
THE COURT: Is that a challenge for cause?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I would concur. That will be granted.
Any other challenges for cause from the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, Mr. Mitchell has got the
doctor's appointment at 3:45 in Estero, and unless we're going
to break our trial for 3:45 . . . . He's got a possible torn
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PEREMPTORY CHALLENGES
Achilles. I think that would be justification for challenge
for cause.
THE COURT: From the government?
MR. LEEMAN: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'll hold off on that one. He's
otherwise a fine juror. If we don't need him, I'll excuse him
for cause, but let me see how that plays out.
MR. DICKERSON: That's fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Other challenges for cause?
MR. DICKERSON: Last one is Miss Bonany with her dog.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: The Court will grant the challenge for
cause for her.
MR. DICKERSON: And one more, Your Honor. I'm sorry,
probably don't need it, but, with Mr. Bailey, his third job
interview on Wednesday.
THE COURT: That's right.
What says the government?
MR. LEEMAN: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: The Court will grant that challenge for
cause.
MR. DICKERSON: Nothing further from the defense,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. As I read my notes, you each
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PEREMPTORY CHALLENGES
have one peremptory left. We'll start with the government.
MR. LEEMAN: We would exercise that on Juror
Number 37, Your Honor, Mr. Panzegraf.
THE COURT: All right. And for the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: Juror Number 36. Juror 36 is Mr.
Nieves.
THE COURT: All right. That would leave Mr. Hochman
as Juror Number 10, Miss King as Number 11, Mr. Anderson as
Number 12. I would grant the cause for Mr. Mitchell. And the
alternative is to have Ms. Shaw and Ms. King. And I would
propose two alternates. Is there anyone with a challenge to
either Ms. Shaw or King as alternates?
MR. LEEMAN: Not from the government, Your Honor.
MR. DICKERSON: Not from defense, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. I'll strike the rest of the
jurors then.
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Can you go through that one more
time?
THE COURT: Sure. So the jurors are as follows:
Number 10 will be Mr. Hochman. Number 11, Miss Klein. Twelve
is Mr. Anderson. Alternate Number 1 is Ms. Shaw. Alternate
Number 2 is Ms. King. And the rest will be excused.
Does that work fine with everyone's notes?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
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EXCUSED JURORS DISMISSED
IN OPEN COURT
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm
going to thank and excuse some of you, and the rest will
remain. It's easier just to say who's going to remain, and
then the others will be excused. You will not need to call
that telephone number. This will complete your term of jury
service in this case if you are excused.
In the first row, I would ask Mr. Hochman to stay.
In the second row, I would ask Ms. Klein, Mr. Anderson, and
Ms. Shaw to stay. In the third row, I would ask that Ms. King
stay. The rest you have will be excused with the Court's
thanks.
(Thereupon, the excused jurors left the courtroom.)
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, you're
included in the jury that we've selected. I'm going to ask
that you come back tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock, report to
the jury room. You're out of order, but we'll put you in the
right seats tomorrow morning, once we have all the other jurors
present.
I would repeat all the instructions you've heard
before about not talking about the case or allowing anyone to
discuss the case with you or in your presence. I do anticipate
some publicity about the case from various media sources, so
I'll again instruct you you are not to read or listen to any
such media reports about the case. As I've said several times
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now, you have the best seats in the house, and you will have
for the next week. So it's very important to all of us.
And I will see you up here as close to 9:00 o'clock
tomorrow morning as we can. And you may be excused.
(At 6:06 p.m., the jurors were escorted from the
courtroom.).
THE COURT: All right. Counsel, 9:00 o'clock
tomorrow morning.
MS. WAID: Thank you, Your Honor.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
(Thereupon, at 6:06 p.m., the above-entitled matter was
concluded.)
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
CERTIFICATE
I CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING TRANSCRIPT IS A TRUE AND
ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT FROM THE ORIGINAL STENOGRAPHIC RECORD IN
THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER.
Dated this 12th day of January, 2022.
_
JEFFREY G. THOMAS, RPR, CRR
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