Court filing
Transcript of Jury Trial, Day Three of Four, as to Casey David Crowther — USA v. Crowther (Dkt. 192, M.D. Fla. No. 2:20-mj-01094, docketed in No. 2:20-cr-00114)
Filed November 15, 2021 in USA v. Crowther; one of 318 filings from this case.
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2021-11-15 |
U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida · No. 2:20-cr-00114 · Doc. 192 · 2021-11-15 · Docket on CourtListener
Full text
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
FORT MYERS DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Fort Myers, Florida
)
) Case 2:20-CR-114-FtM-66MRM
Plaintiff )
) Thursday, March 25, 2021
vs. )
) 9:03 a.m. to 2:59 p.m.
CASEY DAVID CROWTHER, )
) Courtroom 5D
Defendant )
_______________________________)
TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL
DAY 3 OF 4, VOLUME 3 OF 4
HELD BEFORE THE HONORABLE JOHN E. STEELE,
United States District Court Judge
Official Court Reporter:
Jeffrey G. Thomas, RPR, CRR
2110 First Street, Suite 2-194
Fort Myers, FL 33901
Telephone: (239) 461-2033
(Proceedings reported by Stenotype; Transcript produced by
computer-aided transcription.)
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 1 of 177 PageID
4927
2
A P P E A R A N C E S
COUNSEL FOR GOVERNMENT:
United States Attorney's Office
Middle District of Florida
United States Courthouse
2110 First Street
Room 3-137
Fort Myers, FL 33901
(239)461-2200
BY: TRENT REICHLING, ESQ.
MICHAEL V. LEEMAN, ESQ.
COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT:
FisherBroyles LLP
2390 Tamiami Trail North
Suite 100
Naples, FL 34103
BY: NICOLE HUGHES WAID, ESQ
BRIAN E. DICKERSON, ESQ.
* * *
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 2 of 177 PageID
4928
3
I N D E X
March 25, 2021 Vol. Page
3
5
Preliminary Discussions
3
71
Discussion Re Jury Instruction
- - -
WITNESSES FOR GOVERNMENT
WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOIR DIRE
NAME Vol. Pg. Vol. Pg. Vol. Pg. Vol. Pg. Vol. Pg.
EVELYN PORTINARI
3
5
3
49
3
58
LEE LEFKOWITZ 3
61
3
68
DIANE KNOTT 3
75
3
110
3
134
- - -
GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS ADMITTED
Vol. Page
3
14
Defendant's Exhibit A3 Admitted
3
78
Government's Exhibits 153, 154, 155, 156, 157,
158, 159, 161, 163, 164 Admitted
3
79
Government's Exhibits 66, 138, 139 Admitted
3
80
Government's Exhibits 132 through 137 Admitted
3
81
Government's Exhibit 168 Admitted
3
108
Government's Exhibit 165 Admitted
- - -
(Index Continues on Following Page)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 3 of 177 PageID
4929
4
I N D E X
(Continued From Previous Page)
DEFENSE EXHIBITS ADMITTED
Vol. Page
3
8
Defendant's Exhibit A1 Admitted
3
13
Defendant's Exhibit A2 Admitted
3
16
Defendant's Exhibit A4 Admitted
3
17
Defendant's Exhibit A5 Admitted
- - -
Vol. Page
3
138
Defense Motion for Judgment of Acquittal
3
140
Discussion Re Forfeiture
3
141
Discussion Re Scheduling
3
143
The Court Takes Judicial Notice of Facts
3
143
Government Rests
3
144
Jury Instructed and Released for the Day
3
145
Jury Charge Conference
3
177
Court Recessed for the Day
* * *
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 4 of 177 PageID
4930
5
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
* * * P R O C E E D I N G S * * *
- - -
THE COURT: Good morning, everyone. Both sides ready
for the jury?
MS. WAID: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Have the jury step in, please.
Do you want to have your witness step in?
(At 9:05 a.m., the jury was escorted into the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please. And good morning,
ladies and gentlemen.
And I believe the government had finished their
direct?
MR. LEEMAN: It had, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. To the defense, then, please.
MS. WAID: Thank you, Your Honor.
EVELYN PORTINARI,
having been recalled as a witness by the Government, having
been previously called as a witness and duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Good morning, Miss Portinari.
A
Good morning.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 5 of 177 PageID
4931
6
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
Please let me know if you can't hear me or if you don't
understand a question, and I'll be happy too repeat it for you.
Is that okay?
A
Yes.
Q
I want to just kind of refresh the jury's recollection.
You are the human resources director for Target; is that
correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And how long have you worked at Target Roofing?
A
Two and a half years.
Q
I want to start off with an overview of Target. What
does Target do?
A
We are a roofing company that primarily is in commercial
roofing.
Q
Okay. And is that here in Southwest Florida?
A
Yes.
Q
Is the building located on Ortiz Avenue?
A
That is correct.
Q
And would it be accurate to state that the building sits
on approximately five acres of land?
A
Yes.
Q
And there are two buildings on that property, actually;
that correct?
A
That is correct.
Q
Can you explain to the jury what are the two buildings
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 6 of 177 PageID
4932
7
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
for?
A
Sure. So there is the main building, where all of our
clerical office staff works in. And then we have our sheet
metal shop that's attached to the back of that building. And
then there's a second building, which is a house, on the back
of the property, that is used for inventory and storage.
Q
Okay. And was it that house that you were actually
discussing yesterday when you were talking about the
administrative tasks being done by the hired workers?
A
That's correct.
Q
The main building that houses Target Roofing, would it
be accurate to say that it's about 20,000 square feet?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And 8,000 square feet of that is the warehouse;
correct?
A
That sounds about right.
Q
Okay. Or the metal fabrication shop that you discussed
previously; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And there's about 12,000 square feet of office
space; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
MS. WAID: I'm going to show you what has been
previously marked as Defense Exhibits A1 through A5. And we're
just going to talk about them. I'm going to show them to you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 7 of 177 PageID
4933
8
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
right now, and give copies to defense counsel and the Court
first.
Permission to approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may. Was that A1 through A5?
MS. WAID: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Thank you.
(Counsel provides evidence to the witness.)
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Let's start off with A1. Miss Portinari, what is A1?
A
It's an overhead photograph of the property.
Q
Okay. The property of Target Roofing?
A
That's correct.
Q
And is it fair and accurate depiction of the property of
Target Roofing?
A
Yes.
MS. WAID: Defense would move in Defendant's
Exhibit A1.
THE COURT: Any objections?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: A1 will be admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit A1 admitted.)
MS. WAID: Permission to publish?
THE COURT: You may.
MS. WAID: Thank you.
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 8 of 177 PageID
4934
9
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
MS. WAID: The picture is going to show up there,
Miss Portinari, and actually you're going to have it in front
of you as well.
And for the record, Your Honor, I'm going to drop off
a pen so she can mark on the exhibit for the jury. Is that
okay?
THE COURT: That's fine.
MS. WAID: Thank you.
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Okay, Miss Portinari. So this is Target Roofing, this
is where you work every day?
A
That's correct.
Q
Well, Monday through Friday at least; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And could you point out for the jury -- or put down --
point out, on this screen, kind of where your office is
located?
A
Currently or at the time?
Q
At the time.
A
It will be in this area here.
Q
So, for the record, you are -- mark it -- can you please
mark it on your picture? Yeah. Okay. And explain where it is
to the jury so that --
THE COURT: I think there's a way of having her touch
the screen and have it visible.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 9 of 177 PageID
4935
10
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
MS. WAID: I thought so too. That's what I was
hoping would happen.
THE COURT: Let's check here. Yes.
(The witness places a mark on the projected image.)
THE WITNESS: About right here.
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Okay. So that is where your office was located. And
when we say at the time, we're talking about in the beginning
of the pandemic, March/April 2020; is that correct?
A
That's correct.
Q
And did you have any windows in your office?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Can you show for the jury, on that picture, where
is the warehouse you were talking about located?
(The witness marks on the exhibit.)
A
Probably back in this section back here. So back here.
Q
And for the record, on your picture, can you actually
put W where that is located? And E for where your office is,
please? And the house that we discussed, could you actually
please put down -- mark and tell the jury where the house is
that you were discussing?
(The witness marks on the exhibit.)
Q
Okay. So -- and where do you park?
(The witness marks on the exhibit.)
A
Closer up against the building.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 10 of 177 PageID
4936
11
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
So would it be accurate to say that your parking space
sat least a football field away from the house that you were
discussing where the administrative tasks were taking place?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Can you please put P, for park, on the record?
And H for house? Okay.
And can you explain to the jury, what are all the trucks
on the side of the building?
A
Those are all our vehicles that are used on a daily
basis.
Q
Okay. And they're used for roofing.
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. For roofing projects and things of that nature?
A
Correct.
Q
And in the morning, can you show on this picture kind of
where the workers and the crew members would kind of congregate
to get together?
A
It would be in this warehouse space back here. Back in
here. They come through.
Q
Okay. But are you normally there when the crew members
first get there in the morning?
A
No.
Q
Okay. What time do the crew members normally get to
work?
A
About 5:30.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 11 of 177 PageID
4937
12
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
5:30 in the morning?
A
Yes.
Q
And what time do you normally get to work?
A
8:00 a.m.
Q
And, by the time you get to the office, are the crew
members normally on their projects already?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. So you wouldn't see them normally; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Pre-COVID you wouldn't see them normally; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
All right. We're going to move on to A2, please.
Don't -- just look at it first.
A
Oh.
Q
No, it's okay. On down by you, look at it. The one on
the copy that I gave you. And can you please tell me what it
is?
A
It's photographs of all of our company vehicles.
Q
Okay. And is that a fair and accurate depiction of your
company vehicles?
A
Yes.
MS. WAID: Okay. Defense would like to more in
Defendant's Exhibit A2.
THE COURT: Any objections?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 12 of 177 PageID
4938
13
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
THE COURT: A2 will be admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit A2 admitted.)
MS. WAID: Permission to publish?
THE COURT: I'm sorry. If I admit it, you can
publish it.
MS. WAID: Thank you.
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
BY MS. WAID:
Q
All right. So this is actually the fleet of company
cars for Target Roofing; is that correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And you would -- how many, at a normal time,
employees does Target actually employ on the books?
A
About 170, 180.
Q
So 170 and 180 people at any given time; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And would you be able to identify all 170 to 180
employees?
A
No.
Q
Would you be able to identify a hundred of those
employees?
A
No.
Q
Would you be able to identify 50 of those employees?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And some of the 50 actually work continuously for
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 13 of 177 PageID
4939
14
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Target; isn't that correct?
A
Yes.
Q
But there are many, many other employees who kind of
come and go; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
I'm going to have you look at your picture A3 and tell
me what that is.
A
That's the hallway.
Q
Okay. The hallway of Target Roofing?
A
Yes.
Q
And that's the inside building on Ortiz; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Is that a fair and accurate depiction of what the
building looks like?
A
Yes.
MS. WAID: We would like to admit Defendant's
Exhibit A3.
THE COURT: Any objections?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: A3 will be admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit A3 admitted.)
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Okay. So this is the hallway that you were discussing;
is that right?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 14 of 177 PageID
4940
15
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And was your office located on this hallway?
A
Yes.
Q
Can you point out where your office was located?
(The witness marks on the exhibit.)
Q
Okay. And, for that, can you just put O for me on your
piece of paper? Sorry, I know it's a lot of work.
Okay. Thank you.
And this is kind of a view down the entire length of the
building that we saw in A1; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And, during COVID, is this pretty much what that
hallway looked like?
A
Yes.
Q
Were you required to keep your door shut?
A
Yes.
Q
And were you required to stay in your office?
A
Yes.
Q
And were you told not to co-mingle with co-workers?
A
Correct.
Q
Can you please look at A4? What is it?
A
It's a picture of the warehouse shop area where we do
the metal fabrication.
Q
Okay. And is that a fair and accurate depiction of what
the warehouse looks like?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 15 of 177 PageID
4941
16
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
Yes.
MS. WAID: We'd like to admit Defense Exhibit A4 at
this time.
THE COURT: Any objections?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: A4 will be admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit A4 admitted.)
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
BY MS. WAID:
Q
So this is the warehouse; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And this is where you were stating that the workers, in
the morning, normally gather to go about their business; is
that accurate?
A
Correct.
Q
And even though you're not there in the morning, you
know that this is where they will come in and go during
the day, in and out; right?
A
During the morning? Yeah.
Q
Okay. Do you normally go down to the warehouse?
A
No. Not very often.
Q
Okay. Would you have any reason to go down to the
warehouse?
A
Maybe if I was looking for time sheets.
Q
Okay. But for the most part you stay in the main office
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 16 of 177 PageID
4942
17
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
section of Target; is that accurate?
A
Correct.
Q
And that is somewhat segregated from the warehouse
section.
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. The last one. We're looking at A5. Can you tell
me what that is?
A
It's an overhead picture of the building and the
property.
Q
When you stay building, are you talking about Target
Roofing?
A
That's correct.
Q
And is it fair and accurate depiction of Target Roofing?
The premises?
A
Prior to us moving into the building, yes.
Q
Okay. And why do you say prior to you moving into the
building? What's changed?
A
There's construction trailers out there which we were
working in originally.
Q
We'd like to admit Defense Exhibit A5.
THE COURT: Any objections?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: A5 will be admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit A5 admitted.)
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 17 of 177 PageID
4943
18
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Okay. So this gives an overview of the premises of
Target Roofing; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And, when you first moved in, you said there were
trailers. Can you tell me where those trailers were?
(The witness marks on the exhibit.)
Q
Okay. And those trailers were actually full of
documents; is that correct?
A
No.
Q
What were they filled with?
A
Those trailers we were working out of.
Q
Oh.
A
We had each division working in them. The trailer that
held all the documents is actually not in this picture.
Q
Okay. And when you -- why did you need a trailer with
documents and things of that nature? Can you explain that to
the jury?
A
Sure. We needed it because we had all of them working
in those construction trailers; and, as we added more staff, we
started running out of space to hold people. So we got a
storage container that we started moving documents into to
relieve space so that we could work within those trailers.
Q
Okay. And where would that storage trailer be located?
A
It was right here.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 18 of 177 PageID
4944
19
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
Okay. And that's because you actually moved into this
new building; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
So this is actually new construction that you were
building at the time; is that right?
A
Correct.
Q
And where was target located prior to that?
A
We were on Crystal Ave.
Q
And so you moved from Crystal Ave to build this new
construction on Ortiz Avenue; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And you moved all of your materials, and documents, and
everything into the Ortiz Avenue space; is that accurate?
A
That's accurate.
Q
Can you please, for the record, mark down on your
picture H for where the house is? And show the jurors where
the house is as opposed to . . . .
(The witness marks on the exhibit.)
Q
And what was in that house?
A
At that time, it was inventory.
Q
Okay. Thank you.
All right. Now, I want to talk to you a little bit
about the construction business; all right? So you work in the
roofing industry; correct?
A
Correct.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 19 of 177 PageID
4945
20
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
Okay. And how long have you worked in the roofing
industry?
A
Two and a half years.
Q
Okay. So just while were you at Target; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
All right. And, in the roofing industrial, would it be
accurate to say that there are new hires every day?
A
Not every day, but often.
Q
But often; okay. And some roofing projects can last two
days.
A
Correct.
Q
And some roofing projects can last months; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
All right. And sometimes you need two people for a
roofing project; right?
A
Only if it was service work would it just be two people.
Otherwise it's a crew.
Q
A crew. And sometimes that crew could be as big as 70
people.
A
Yes.
Q
So you're the head of human resources. You're the
director of that. So it's gotta be hectic when you get large
groups, would that be an accurate statement?
A
Yes.
Q
And oftentimes the payroll is going to fluctuate; is
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 20 of 177 PageID
4946
21
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
that accurate?
A
That's correct.
Q
Because you are in charge of payroll as well; is that
right?
A
Correct.
Q
And do you agree that many of the crew members hired by
Target are Hispanic immigrants?
A
Yes.
Q
And isn't that true for most construction companies in
Southwest Florida?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And isn't it true that these crew members often
jump from company to company, wherever a project may pop up?
A
Yes.
Q
And would it be accurate to state that many of these
crew members will actually travel through a state in order to
get work?
A
Yes.
Q
Now, do most of these crew members that you've actually
employed have driver's license?
A
No.
Q
And can you explain to the jury kind of what the process
is to gather documentation from the workers?
A
So when they come in to fill out their new-hire
applications, they know that they need to bring proper
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 21 of 177 PageID
4947
22
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
documentation that will be gathered and then brought to me, and
I'll make photocopies, double check all of the paperwork, and
then submit to the payroll company.
Q
Okay. And, for the most part, do most of the crew
members speak English?
A
No.
Q
Do they read?
A
No.
Q
Often do they need assistance from wives or girlfriends
to assist with fill out the paperwork?
A
Yes.
Q
Do they often need assistance from HR to fill out
paperwork?
A
Yes.
Q
And you actually have employees who work for you;
correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And how many employees work in the HR department?
A
At any given time, one. Sometimes two.
Q
Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.
A
At any given time, one. Sometimes two.
Q
Underneath you.
A
Yes.
Q
So two to three people are in the work HR department; is
that correct?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 22 of 177 PageID
4948
23
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
Yes.
Q
And, pre-COVID, would the HR department assist with
filling out paperwork and things of that nature?
A
Yes.
Q
And, post-COVID, after the precautions were put into
place, or safeguards put into place so there was minimal
contact between anybody inside, the internal staff and outside
crew members?
A
Yes.
Q
I'm going to draw your attention to March, 2020. Can
you explain to the jurors kind of what the financial situation
was at Target Roofing late December?
A
Yes. In late December, we were coming into a pretty
slow period. We didn't have a lot of work on the books for
quarter one. We knew we had some big projects coming up, but
it wasn't going to start until second quarter. So, in
December, we did a pretty large layoff of about . . . I don't
know, 50 to 60 people.
Q
Okay. And then what about January, 2020?
A
January, we were slow.
Q
February, 2020?
A
February, 2020, we did another layoff.
Q
Okay. And then COVID hit; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And was the company concerned about losing some of its
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 23 of 177 PageID
4949
24
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
largest projects?
A
Yes.
Q
And at that time that COVID hit in March, 2020, were
construction sites being shut down?
A
Yes.
Q
And were inspectors -- they stopped inspecting sites for
a period of time?
A
That's correct.
Q
And was the management team at Target concerned about
the financial condition of the company?
A
That's correct.
Q
Did the management team have a meeting about the
Paycheck Protection Program?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And can you tell the jurors what was discussed at
that meeting?
A
It was just discussed that the Paycheck Protection
Program was going to be coming out, and that we were going to
be applying for it.
Q
Okay. And what was the reason that you were going to be
applying for that money?
A
For payroll.
Q
For payroll. Okay. And it was to maintain employees;
correct?
A
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 24 of 177 PageID
4950
25
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
And, with that payroll monies, PPP money, would you be
able to rehire employees?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you assist in the application process?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you gather documentation to actually submit to the
Sanibel Captiva Bank?
A
Yes.
Q
And, as part of that documentation, did it include
payroll records?
A
Yes.
Q
And was the reason that it included payroll records so
that you could estimate how much payroll you would need to pay
over, at first, an eight-week period?
A
Yes.
Q
All right. Would you state that, when -- would it be
accurate to state that, when COVID hit, kind of you changed,
quote unquote, your normal operations at Target?
A
Yes.
Q
So the crew members, who were the ones that were kind of
gathering in the warehouse and things like that pre-COVID, did
they come into the main office building often?
A
Not really. They would, but not all the time.
Q
Okay. And, post-COVID, were crew members actually
allowed to come into the main office building?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 25 of 177 PageID
4951
26
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
No.
Q
And you took serious precautions, and implemented new
policies at Target, in order to deal with the pandemic; is that
accurate?
A
That's accurate.
Q
Okay. And masks were required?
A
Yes.
Q
Lots of hand sanitizer.
A
Yes.
Q
Everyone needed to stay six feet apart; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And you were actually instructed to stay in your own
office; is that accurate?
A
That's correct.
Q
And to the point where, even though many of you were
working from the office still, you actually had Zoom meetings
from your own offices; is that accurate?
A
That's correct.
Q
Okay. And normally, on those Zoom meetings, you were
including internal staff; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
Usually that would just include the management team. Is
that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
And is that who would normally be involved in any type
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 26 of 177 PageID
4952
27
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
of management meeting?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Would it be fair to say that you were, as we all
were, extremely concerned about COVID?
A
Yes.
Q
And, as was Mr. Crowther.
A
That's correct.
Q
All right. And so did Mr. Crowther then kind of take on
certain tasks in order to minimize contact between all of the
staff members?
A
Yeah.
Q
Okay. And some of the policies that we actually changed
at Target were some people telecommuted from home; correct?
A
Some people.
Q
Okay. Like who?
A
The sales staff did.
Q
All right.
A
Because we weren't able to get them their own space so
that they weren't in cubicles.
Q
Okay. And there were -- oh, and they worked in the
cubicles, kind of at the end of the building; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
So, for the record, that would be down almost by the
warehouse, right in front of the warehouse.
A
Correct.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 27 of 177 PageID
4953
28
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
Okay. And a lot of -- some of the duties that employees
could perform from home would include marketing; correct?
A
Um-hum.
Q
Sales; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Speaking to customers to allay their fears.
A
Yes.
Q
Talking to building inspectors to see when building
inspections would be back up on site; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Talking to vendors?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And trying to find materials because, at that
time, isn't it true that the materials kind of dried up, and it
was difficult to get roofing materials at that time?
A
Yes. I remember that being mentioned.
Q
Okay. Also, kind of the drafting of projects could be
something that could be performed at home, as well.
A
Yes.
Q
Now, you state -- we had discussed earlier how the
members of -- a lot of the crew members are Hispanic
immigrants; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
And in early March/April 2020, even into May, 2020,
there was a large COVID outbreak in the Hispanic community; is
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 28 of 177 PageID
4954
29
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
that accurate?
A
That is accurate.
Q
And this caused additional concern for Target employees;
correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And it placed employees at a higher risk.
A
Yes.
Q
And it actually turned out to be a legitimate concern;
correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Because Target had a COVID outbreak; is that right?
A
Yes, we did.
Q
And was it once or twice?
A
During that timeframe, it was once. That lasted a
few -- quite a few weeks. And then we had a second one
recently.
Q
Okay. And employees were actually hospitalized.
A
They did go to the hospital.
Q
Okay. And, because of that, then there were actually
more stringent policies and procedures put into place; isn't
that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And it's not that you weren't doing your job as
human resources director, it was that you were instructed to
stay in your office; correct?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 29 of 177 PageID
4955
30
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
That is correct.
Q
And you were instructed not to speak with workers for
your own health; is that right?
A
That is correct.
Q
Okay. But you continued to actually . . . receive the
information, the I-9 forms and the documentation; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And you continued to do payroll; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
So you continued to do your job responsibilities; is
that right?
A
Yes.
Q
You were just -- you were just isolated at the time.
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. And during that time many of us were isolated.
Correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. But the employees there at Target, specifically
because of those outbreaks, there were much more stringent
requirements; is that accurate?
A
That's correct.
Q
So, because of that, would you agree that Mr. Crowther
tried to keep contact between employees down to a minimum?
A
Yes.
Q
And he would take on tasks that he might normally not
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 30 of 177 PageID
4956
31
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
have handled so that internal staff had minimal contact with
the outside crew members.
A
Yes.
Q
And you stated earlier that, often, crew members need
assistance with filling out paperwork. Is that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
And does Mr. Crowther speak Spanish?
A
Yes, he does.
Q
And all right. And was this a task that Mr. Crowther
could have taken on to keep contact minimum amongst employees?
A
Yes.
Q
Because, as the owner of the company, it's Mr. Crowther
who's responsible for the safety of his employees. Is that
accurate?
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. And he took these precautions in order to keep
his employees safe.
A
Correct.
Q
All right. Now, yesterday Mr. Leeman talked to you a
little bit about -- and I think you -- Casey Crowther special
projects; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And would it be accurate to say that, during
natural disasters, Casey Crowther did take on special projects
for Target?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 31 of 177 PageID
4957
32
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Now, you weren't employed with Target during
Hurricane Irma, were you?
A
No, I was not.
Q
But you were employed with Target during Hurricane
Michael; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
And Hurricane Michael hit the Florida panhandle in 2017;
is that right?
A
2018.
Q
2018. Sorry. I can't remember what today is. In 2018.
And it actually devastated the Florida panhandle; is that
accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
And what did Mr. Crowther do when that happened?
A
He took a team of people up to Panama City, and they set
up . . . a camp up there, with different trailers, to roof up
in that area.
Q
Okay. And did they live in those trailers?
A
Yes, they did.
Q
For approximately how long?
A
It was a while. Five or six months maybe?
Q
Okay. So you would agree that this would be a special
project that the owner of the business took upon himself.
A
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 32 of 177 PageID
4958
33
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
All right. And, when the pandemic hit, did Mr. Crowther
respond to that disaster as well?
A
Yes.
Q
All right. He rehired the workers.
A
Yes.
Q
And that was with the PPP money.
A
Yes.
Q
He employed new workers.
A
Yes.
Q
He maintained the workers that he had.
A
Yes.
Q
And you some of the -- he also employed some family
members.
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And is it unusual for a family business to employ
family members?
A
In my history, no.
Q
Especially during a global pandemic.
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And, during that time, in order to actually
employ more people in the community, Target Roofing took
projects on, it reduced prices. Is that accurate?
A
That was discussed, yes.
Q
Okay. And because the intent of getting that PPP money
was for what reason?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 33 of 177 PageID
4959
34
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
To employ our employees and make sure that they were
paid.
Q
And that's exactly what happened; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And you actually handle the payroll, correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And so you know that those employees got paid.
A
Yes.
Q
I want to talk a little about these 39 workers that were
discussed yesterday. So these 39 workers were hired because
you were trying to bring on jobs on for workers in the
community; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And you stated 20 or the 39 were used for administrative
functions; is that right?
A
That's correct.
Q
And the remaining 19 were roofers.
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And you could only hire so many roofers at that
time because sites were still down; is that right?
A
I believe so, yes.
Q
Okay. Now, you stated in your testimony yesterday that
many of the workers were kind of shredding documents.
A
Correct.
Q
And you stated also, earlier in your testimony today,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 34 of 177 PageID
4960
35
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
that you had just moved into a new facility onto Ortiz; is that
is correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And we viewed that facility in the photos that I showed
you earlier; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
And so when you moved from that facility, would it be
accurate to say that you had documents and things that you
needed to get rid of?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And, like many of us did during the pandemic, did
Target decide to actually take on tasks they hadn't done
before, and do some kind of spring cleaning?
A
Yes.
Q
All right. And were these workers hired to kind of
clean out all of the old documents, and things of that nature,
from those trailers at that time?
A
They had already been moved from the trailers out to the
house, but yes.
Q
Okay. So that's an excellent point. Thank you for
reminding me. So they're originally in trailers; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And then they were -- the documents had been moved into
the house; is that right?
A
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 35 of 177 PageID
4961
36
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
So the house where we had on -- the H on, behind
the . . . let's just pull that up. Can you pull up A5, please?
Just so we're clear where that house was located. Can you
point to where the house is located on there?
(The witness marks on the exhibit.)
Q
Okay. And so the workers were hired to kind of -- the
documents were located, then, in the house.
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And those workers were hired to kind of clean --
shred those documents, clean that house; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And then they were actually asked to do additional
tasks, such as kind of renovate, and help bring that property
up to code; is that accurate?
A
I'm not sure on all those specifics.
Q
Okay. What is . . . what is your payroll company's
name?
A
Work Force Business Solutions.
Q
Okay. At that time, correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. And do you know a man named Mario Curia?
A
Yes.
Q
Who is he?
A
He handles the worker comp aspect of things. Worker's
comp.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 36 of 177 PageID
4962
37
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
And so is he an investigator? What does he do for you?
A
So he'll come out from time to time, and he'll go out
and inspect job sites. As far as my work with him, he's worked
with me whenever we've had to change people's worker's comp
codes, or go over to make sure that everybody is classified in
the correct codes.
Q
Okay. And would Mr. Curia normally conduct inspections
at Target?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. How often?
A
I'm not sure. Our director of operations handled that
more than I did.
Q
Okay. And for what reasons was he doing that?
A
On behalf of the payroll company.
Q
Okay. Do you recall if Mr. Curia conducted any on-site
inspections of Target in May, 2020?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. I'm going to show what you has been marked as
Defense Exhibit K.
(Counsel provides evidence to the witness.)
MS. WAID: Permission to approach?
THE COURT: You may.
MS. WAID: And permission to approach the witness?
THE COURT: You may.
MS. WAID: Thank you.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 37 of 177 PageID
4963
38
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
(Counsel provides evidence to the witness.)
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Miss Portinari, can you tell me what that is?
A
An inspection report that was given to our director of
operations.
Q
And are these inspections conducted as part of Target's
regular course of business? Sorry. I apologize.
Are these inspections conducted as part of Target's
regular course of business?
A
Yes.
Q
And are these reports maintained by the company in the
regular course of business?
A
Scott maintains them. How they're maintained I'm not
specifically sure of.
Q
Can you tell me what the date of that is?
A
May 19. But the audit was completed on May 18th.
Q
Okay.
A
Of 2020.
Q
All right. And do you recall Mr. Curia coming to . . .
to Target to do an inspection on May 18th, or do you recall him
being there around that time?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And that was during COVID.
A
Yes.
Q
All right. And do you recall him stating that he was
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 38 of 177 PageID
4964
39
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
there because of the administrative title provided to some of
those workers?
MR. LEEMAN: I'll object to hearsay, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WAID:
Q
But you saw Mr. Curia at your office; correct?
A
Mr. Curia met with me.
Q
Okay. In your office. In regards to an inspection of
the property; is that accurate?
A
In regards to the question of the description of those
workers on the worker's comp code.
MS. WAID: Okay.
Momentarily, court's indulgence, Your Honor.
(Ms. Waid and Mr. Dickerson confer privately.)
BY MS. WAID:
Q
So it was your understanding at that time that Mr. Curia
came to Target to discuss the administrative code; is that
accurate?
MR. LEEMAN: Objection, calls for hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. WAID: All right.
BY MS. WAID:
Q
So Mr. Curia was on the property of Target in
May 18/May 19; correct? May 18, I'm sorry.
A
May 18, yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 39 of 177 PageID
4965
40
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
And, after he was at the property on Target, was he in
the building?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Did he come to see you first?
A
Yes.
Q
And then where did you take him?
A
To Scott Ewins, our director of operations.
Q
Okay. And do you know where he went after he met with
Mr. Ewins?
A
No.
Q
But, after your conversation regarding administrative
issues, did you receive any type of complaint from WSB?
A
WBS?
Q
WBS, sorry.
A
No. They just had questions, and they said that Mario
would be coming out.
Q
Okay. And then Mario came out.
A
Correct.
Q
And, after Mario was actually in the building, he left.
A
Correct.
Q
And, after that, after he left the building, did you
receive any complaints from WBS about administrative tasks?
A
No.
Q
And they didn't send you any paperwork stating that
there was any issues with your administrative coding?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 40 of 177 PageID
4966
41
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
No.
Q
And you never heard about that administrative issue
again?
A
No.
Q
Okay. There comes a time when Congress changed the
rules from eight weeks to 24 weeks; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. When I say they changed it from eight weeks to
24 weeks, originally Target only had eight weeks to spend the
payroll; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And then Congress changed it to 24 weeks to spend the
payroll; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
And you were closely following those rules and
regulations because you were concerned about how payroll was
going to be spent; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And the target number -- sorry for the pun -- the
target number that you were trying to reach in payroll
expenditures was 2.1 million; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Because that's actually the amount of the loan from
Sanibel Captiva Bank; is that accurate?
A
Correct.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 41 of 177 PageID
4967
42
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
And so when Congress all of a sudden switches it up and
changes the rules, you have to change your strategy as well.
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. Meaning you kind of -- at this point in time,
prior -- during the eight weeks, you were trying to expend that
money to employees; correct?
A
Correct. The company was.
Q
You were taking projects at lower prices.
A
Yes.
Q
You were spending a lot of money on overtime.
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And that was in order to get those projects done.
A
Yes.
Q
And you had done special projects that you normally
wouldn't hire people for, but you were doing it because you
wanted to employ members of the community.
A
Yes.
Q
So, when they switched it to 24 weeks, you decide it may
be time to slow down a little bit and take a look at your
finances; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
And you decided it might be better to make better
decisions for the company long term, because you now had
24 weeks, and you needed to spend that payroll on your
employees; is that accurate?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 42 of 177 PageID
4968
43
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
Yes.
Q
So you decided to cut back on overtime?
A
Yes.
Q
And raise the price of your projects so that Target
could actually generate a little bit of profit?
A
Yes.
Q
All right. And these changes were actually made so that
you could keep the jobs of the workers who were regularly
employed at Target; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. So you let go of the additional workers that you
had hired during that eight-week term; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Not all of them. Correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And you let go of the family members, as well; is that
right?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And how many -- and so when all of these people
actually were let go, they were let go on the same day; is that
right?
A
Yes.
Q
And that day was chosen because it's the last date of
the pay period; is that accurate?
A
No. It was chosen because that was the last day that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 43 of 177 PageID
4969
44
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
they received a paycheck from Target.
Q
Okay. Thank you for the clarification.
All right. So I want to talk a little bit about checks.
Was it unusual for workers to not pick up checks?
A
No.
Q
All right. And approximately how many checks -- you
know -- over the past two weeks have not been picked up?
A
We had a container full of them. Like a file container.
Q
And could you give me an approximate number as to how
many those would be?
A
I mean there were a good amount in there.
Q
Good. Over a hundred?
A
Probably, yes. Yes.
Q
Okay. And what do you do with checks that aren't picked
up?
A
What I've been doing is just holding onto them.
Q
Okay. And, most recently, did you -- you stated
yesterday in your testimony that you actually submitted them to
the State of Florida --
A
Yes.
Q
-- correct? And you stated you submitted them to the
State of Florida because they are considered, quote unquote,
unclaimed funds; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
And does that mean that the -- so Target does not keep
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 44 of 177 PageID
4970
45
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
that money; correct?
A
No.
Q
All right. The State of Florida actually takes that
money in the event that somebody's going to come claim those
checks; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And Target, in fact, loses money on that transaction; is
that right?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Let's look a little bit at the I-9 documents that
you kind of -- we discussed at length yesterday. Just so the
jurors remember, kind of what is an I-9?
A
It's a document that you, as an employee, fill out,
stating that you are eligible to work within the United States.
Q
Okay. Now, I'm going to venture a guess that you are
not a fingerprint expert; correct?
A
No.
Q
Okay. Okay. But, as the HR director, you do know the
law surrounding hiring employees; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And the laws state that it is actually the
responsibility of the employee, not the employer, Target, to
accurately fill out the Form I-9; is that right?
A
Correct.
Q
And it is also the responsibility of the employee, not
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 45 of 177 PageID
4971
46
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
employer, to provide proper documents for identification and
work authorization; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. And, when the employer receives the I-9 and the
documentation, it is Target's obligation to review the
documents; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And accept them if they reasonably appear to be genuine
and relate to the individual presenting them; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
In other words, you are not required to be an expert in
reviewing the forms that determine authenticity of those
documents.
A
Correct.
Q
And have you rejected potential applicants before?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Can you just give -- give an example to the jury
of when that might have been?
A
I had an employee come to to us, that I can think of off
the top of my head, with documents that I knew did not belong
to him.
Q
Okay. And what did you do when that happened?
A
I told him he was not eligible for hire.
Q
Okay. But you actually have to be careful when
rejecting applicants as an employer, don't you.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 46 of 177 PageID
4972
47
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
A
Yes.
Q
Because the federal laws also -- there are laws
governing I-9s that contain antidiscrimination provisions.
Right?
A
Yes.
Q
And if Target engages in unfair documentary practices
during the I-9, discrimination, Target could be investigated
and civilly prosecuted for discrimination by the Department of
Justice; isn't that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Once an I-9 form is completed, and the documents
are gathered, what do you do with those documents?
A
They're put -- the documents -- the identification
documents are put in their personnel file, and the I-9s are in
a separate binder that they're contained in.
Q
Do you submit them to a government agency?
A
No.
Q
So you just hold onto them.
A
Yes.
Q
And they sit in the Target filing system.
A
Yes.
Q
In other words, completed I-9 forms remain in the
personnel files of the business indefinitely, without ever
being reviewed by anyone; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 47 of 177 PageID
4973
48
EVELYN PORTINARI - CROSS/WAID
Q
What percent of the PPP loan did Target spend on
payroll?
A
All of it.
Q
So all 2.1 million was spent on payroll; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And, in fact, during the covered time period, Target
spent over a million more than 2.1 million; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Did Target Roofing apply for forgiveness of that
loan?
A
No; not that I'm aware of.
Q
So the 3.2 million in payroll paid during the covered
period is actually going to be -- is being paid by Target
Roofing; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And now it's going to be paid with one-percent
interest pursuant to the loan; is that accurate?
A
Yes. If we don't receive forgiveness.
Q
Yes, if with you don't receive forgiveness, correct,
which Target Roofing hasn't applied for; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And the owner of Target Roofing, technically that money
is being paid by Mr. Crowther, as well; correct?
A
Yes.
MS. WAID: No further questions.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 48 of 177 PageID
4974
49
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Any redirect?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
Madam Deputy, I would like to use the ELMO. Does the
ELMO allow the witness to mark on the screen as well?
COURTROOM DEPUTY: I believe it does.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you.
May I proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
Miss Portinari, I'm putting up the Defense Exhibit A1.
And if you'd point on the screen to where the 39 employees that
were hired in May to shred papers and do roofing are.
A
That picture was taken at Christmas, so they were not
employed.
Q
If the picture was taken in May, you wouldn't be able to
do any better, would you?
A
No.
Q
What about Government's -- or, excuse me, Defense
Exhibit A2? There's a bunch of trucks owned by Target Roofing;
is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
Those trucks aren't registered in Casey Crowther's
personal name, are they?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 49 of 177 PageID
4975
50
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
A
I'm unsure.
Q
When you go to work, do you bring a lunch with you, or
do you go out to eat?
A
Both.
Q
Is there a lunchroom at Target Roofing?
A
There's a break area.
Q
Does it have a refrigerator in it?
A
Yes.
Q
Employees in the office put their drinks, or snacks, or
lunches in that refrigerator?
A
Yes.
Q
When you -- during the coronavirus time, have you been
bringing your lunch in, or going out to eat, or some
combination of both?
A
Both.
Q
Did you ever see Margaret Crowther in the lunchroom
during the time that she was employed?
A
No.
Q
Did you ever see Donald Peters in the lunchroom during
the period that he was employed?
A
Which Donald?
Q
Donald Peters?
A
No.
Q
Did you ever see Danielle Crowther in the lunchroom
during the time she was employed?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 50 of 177 PageID
4976
51
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
A
No.
Q
Is there a public bathroom, or there a bathroom for
employees, in the office as well?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you have a bathroom in your own personal office or
not?
A
No.
Q
So the bathroom is one shared by employees?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you ever see any of these individuals coming in or
out of the bathroom during the time they were employed?
A
No.
Q
How about Mr. Crowther in May of 2020? Do you believe
you saw him in the office during that time period?
A
Yes.
Q
Mr. Ewins is somebody who works for the company?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you see him in the office in May of 2020?
A
Yes.
Q
Mr. Caudill is somebody who works for the company?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you see him in the office in May of 2020?
A
Yes.
Q
So you were . . . . You weren't cloistered in your
office, not seeing anybody at all. That's not true, is it.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 51 of 177 PageID
4977
52
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
A
I was in my office, yes.
Q
You were in your office for the majority of the time,
like many Americans around the country; right?
A
Correct.
Q
But you weren't completely isolated in a way that you
didn't see other people in the office.
A
No; I would see people in the hallways.
Q
In fact, it's sounds like you met with somebody from
WBS; right?
A
That is correct.
Q
Okay. Now, as best as I understood your testimony,
there was a single trailer that housed a bunch of documents
that the company was storing; is that right?
A
That's correct.
Q
What kind of a trailer was that?
A
It was a long construction Conex trailer.
Q
Okay. Is it a type of a trailer where it might take 20
people three weeks to empty it out?
A
I'm not sure.
Q
Okay. I'm asking you reasonably, ma'am. Is there some
reasonable belief that you might hold that that trailer held so
much material that it would take three weeks for 20 people to
clear it out?
A
Probably not.
Q
These 20 people were paid hourly; is that right?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 52 of 177 PageID
4978
53
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
A
They were paid piece rate.
Q
Piece rate?
A
Correct.
Q
What does that mean?
A
It means it was a flat rate for the amount of work they
got done.
Q
They roughly made about a thousand dollars per week, it
varied per person; right?
A
Sure. Yes.
Q
Twenty people, three weeks, roughly a thousand dollars
per week. That's approximately how much money to shred paper
in a trailer?
A
60,000.
Q
Were you ever asked to price alternative ways to shred
paper, perhaps hiring a company that comes out and picks all
this stuff up and shreds it themselves?
A
No.
Q
Now, you made several comments about the company using
PPP money to repay employees. What's your basis for stating
that they actually used the money they received pursuant to the
loan to repay employees?
A
Well, I knew that I -- I processed payroll, so I knew
that we were paying our employees and how much it was.
Q
Okay. My question is different. My question is not how
much the company paid on payroll during the time the PPP
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 53 of 177 PageID
4979
54
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
program was about, my company -- my question was, because I
understood your answer to be, and maybe I'm confused, that you
said PPP funds were used to pay $2.1 million of payroll during
the time period. Is that accurate, or do you not know?
A
Well, we spent over 2.1 million in payroll, so that's
what it was used for, was to pay --
Q
Let me try to be more precise, ma'am. The money that
was received from the bank, the PPP funds --
A
Yes.
Q
-- was that used to pay payroll? Those funds.
A
Yes. As my understanding, it was to be used to be paid
for payroll.
Q
Do you have any personal knowledge of whether
Mr. Crowther actually used some of those funds to purchase a
boat?
A
No.
Q
Okay. So, if he did, then your statement that he used
all of the $2.1 million to pay payroll would be inaccurate; is
that fair?
MS. WAID: Objection, Your Honor. Speculation.
THE COURT: I lost the last word you said.
Miss Waid?
MS. WAID: Oh. Speculation. I'm sorry, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. I just didn't hear you. I'm
sorry. Overruled.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 54 of 177 PageID
4980
55
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question, please?
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
If Mr. Crowther used money directly from the bank from
the PPP loan to buy a boat, then it wouldn't be accurate that
he spent all of the money he received from the bank on payroll,
would it.
MS. WAID: Objection, Your Honor. It's actually a
legal analysis as to how we're determining earmarked funds or
non-earmarked funds.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question again,
please?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, ma'am.
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
If Mr. Crowther used some portion of the PPP loan
directly to buy a boat, isn't it true that all of that money
was not then spent on payroll?
A
That would be correct.
Q
All right. This special project, I guess we're calling
it, for Mr. Crowther, the shredding papers in this special
batch of roofers who got -- whose paychecks were turned over
directly to Mr. Crowther, that ended June 5th; is that right?
A
That's correct.
Q
Okay. The coronavirus is still going on; isn't that
right?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 55 of 177 PageID
4981
56
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
A
That's correct.
Q
Mr. Crowther hasn't kept up this special way of getting
paychecks to employees by providing them to himself during --
as the coronavirus has raged for more than a year now.
A
That's correct.
Q
Do you still have a copy of Exhibit K in front of you?
It's the defense exhibit?
A
Yes.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay.
Your Honor, may I inquire -- I actually lost my
place. Was that entered into evidence?
THE COURT: Let me check. No.
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
Well, Ms. Portinari, this was presented to you, and you
all discussed it as a report that was generated by this
individual who worked for Work Force Business Solutions; right?
A
Yes.
Q
An individual who used to come out and look at things,
and check up on the company; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
This report actually states --
MS. WAID: Objection, Your Honor. Not in evidence.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 56 of 177 PageID
4982
57
EVELYN PORTINARI - REDIRECT/LEEMAN
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
This is a true and accurate copy of a report that was
provided to the Target Roofing; is that right? From that
company?
A
It was provided to Scott.
Q
It was provided to Scott?
A
Um-hum.
Q
Well, is it a true and accurate copy of something that
was done by WBS?
A
It appears to be.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay.
Your Honor, at this point in time I'd ask to
introduce the defendant's own exhibit, Exhibit K.
MS. WAID: Objection, Your Honor. I didn't enter it
into evidence. Lack of proper foundation. It is not a
business record. No foundation has been laid out.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
This report, ma'am, purports to relate to a site
inspection of a project in Naples, doesn't it.
MS. WAID: Objection, Your Honor, not in evidence.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A
Yes.
Q
It has nothing do with the site inspection of the Ortiz
Avenue address for Target Roofing, does it.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 57 of 177 PageID
4983
58
EVELYN PORTINARI - RECROSS/WAID
A
No.
(Mr. Leeman and Mr. Reichling confer privately.)
MR. LEEMAN: May I have a moment with my notes,
Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. LEEMAN: I don't have any further questions for
this witness.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Any recross?
MS. WAID: Just briefly, Your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Good morning again. Just briefly, how many break rooms
does Target Roofing have?
A
Just one area.
Q
Is there another break room in the warehouse?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. So more than one area actually. And there's an
office break room.
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And there are multiple bathrooms within the
building; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. And there's actually bathrooms outside; correct?
A
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 58 of 177 PageID
4984
59
EVELYN PORTINARI - RECROSS/WAID
Q
Okay. And your office, do you actually have a
refrigerator in your own office?
A
In the HR office next door. I have two -- we have two
HR offices.
Q
All right. When you were speaking earlier -- and I just
want to make sure I'm accurate about the 39 workers -- you
testified that you weren't sure if they were assigned other
tasks; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
And it's normally the project manager who handles what
new tasks would be performed; is that right?
A
That's correct.
Q
And you would not normally be involved in that process;
is that correct?
A
That's correct.
Q
And, speaking about Mr. Curia, were you his -- he was
your main contact; right?
A
In regards to the worker's comp codes, yes.
Q
And, on that date, it was your testimony that you met
with Mr. Curia in the office; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And then you actually directed him to Scott Ewins; is
that right?
A
Yes.
Q
And Mr. Ewins, what's his job?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 59 of 177 PageID
4985
60
A
He's the director of operations.
Q
And would it be in the normal procedure for Mr. Ewin,
then, to direct Mr. Curia to an actual work site?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay and he would then conduct another inspection of the
actual work site where the workers were located; is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
And a lot of that was for OSHA regulation purposes; is
that accurate?
A
Yes.
MS. WAID: Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Any further direct?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may stand down. Thank you.
(The witness left the witness stand and left the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
MR. LEEMAN: Lee Lefkowitz, Your Honor.
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. Good morning.
THE WITNESS: Good morning.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you are
about to give in the case now before the Court will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 60 of 177 PageID
4986
61
LEE LEFKOWITZ - DIRECT/LEEMAN
THE WITNESS: I do.
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you very much.
If you would please have a seat in the witness box.
And, once seated, if you would state your name, and spell it.
Thank you.
THE WITNESS: My name is Lee Lefkowitz.
LEE LEFKOWITZ,
called as a witness by the Government, and having been first
duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
If you could spell your last name, please, sir?
A
It's L E F K O W I T J.
Q
Good morning, Mr. Lefkowitz. Are you employed?
A
I am.
Q
By who?
A
The Social Security Administration.
Q
How long have you worked with the Social Security
Administration?
A
Twelve years.
Q
And what is it that you do for the Social Security
Administration?
A
I investigate allegations of fraud. I am a trainer. I
teach new employees. I coach them . . . regulations are
constantly changing, so I have to advise them on that. And I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 61 of 177 PageID
4987
62
LEE LEFKOWITZ - DIRECT/LEEMAN
also am a liaison with our congressional offices. When they
have inquiry, they generally will send it to our office.
Q
Can you give a basic description to the jury of how
Social Security numbers are generated and assigned to people
within the United States?
A
They're generated three different ways. The first way
is enumeration at birth, meaning when a child is born, usually
somebody goes to the hospital and takes the baby's information
and the information from the birth certificate as far as the
biographical information, and sends it to Social Security, and
we go ahead and assign the number and record all the
biographical information.
The second way is enumeration at entry. If someone is
coming in from a foreign country, I believe citizenship and
immigration have the ability to record the biographical
information from the country that they're coming from, and
contacts Social Security, and we assign that person a number.
The third way is somebody actually comes to a field
office and submits an application, provides their identifying
documents as far as birth certificate or immigration documents,
and we can assign that person a number.
Q
Okay. Is every possible combination of Social Security
numbers active at this time?
A
I believe so.
Q
Well, are -- a better question let me ask you, sir. Are
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 62 of 177 PageID
4988
63
LEE LEFKOWITZ - DIRECT/LEEMAN
there certain numbers that the Social Security controls which
are unassigned to any individual presently?
A
There are quite a few numbers that are unassigned.
Q
Okay. Understood. How does the Social Security
Administration keep track of who is assigned a particular
Social Security number?
A
We use a system called personal communication. It
actually stands for PCOM. And that's our main central system
that we have that houses every Social Security number that is
assigned to someone. It houses their biographical information,
it houses their earnings that are being reported by the
employers, it houses benefit amounts, it houses applications
for benefits. So it's got a wealth of information.
Q
Is that system open to the public?
A
No.
Q
Is it secured from the public, in fact?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Does every member of the -- or employee of the
Social Security Administration have access to that system, or
only authorized employees?
A
Authorized employees.
Q
All right. What is that -- PCOM? Am I saying that
right? P C O M?
A
PCOM. That's correct.
Q
That's the name of the database?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 63 of 177 PageID
4989
64
LEE LEFKOWITZ - DIRECT/LEEMAN
A
Yes.
Q
That system -- how does the Social Security
Administration use that system? What does it use it for?
A
We generally use it for applications for benefits,
meaning retirement benefits, disability benefits, survivor's
benefits.
We also have another program, that's outside of Social
Security Administration, that's actually called supplemental
security income, which is more of a welfare based program; but
in order to obtain those benefits, we need to be able to -- we
need to retain information on every person that's assigned a
Social Security number, so that way they get credit for the
earnings that they have through their lifetime, and we know how
much they made, how much they earned, how much they can receive
in benefits.
Q
Do you have access to that system in your role at the
Social Security Administration, sir?
A
I do.
Q
All right. And if you wanted to check the validity of a
Social Security number, whether it was assigned, or whether it
was assigned the same name, how would you do that when you go
into the system?
A
We have a number of queries that we can run on a Social
Security number. One query that we have is a called enumiter,
or numi for short we call it. That one actually has the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 64 of 177 PageID
4990
65
LEE LEFKOWITZ - DIRECT/LEEMAN
person's Social Security number, has their name, has their date
of birth, has their place of birth, has their sex, has their
parents' information, has the date that a card was actually
issued. So that's our biographical query that we can pull.
Q
Okay. Did there come a time in this case, more
recently, when you were asked to review the Social Security
numbers of 39 individuals against this PCOM database?
A
There was.
MR. LEEMAN: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
(Counsel provides evidence to the witness.)
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
Mr. Lefkowitz, I'm handing you what's been previously
entered into evidence as Government's Exhibit 150.
Miss Courtroom Deputy, I'd like to put it up on the
computer, if I could.
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, ma'am.
BY MR. LEEMAN:
Q
Mr. Lefkowitz, do you recognize that document?
A
I do.
Q
Okay. What is it?
A
It's a Social Security Card and a permanent resident
card.
Q
And speaking more generally about the entire exhibit,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 65 of 177 PageID
4991
66
LEE LEFKOWITZ - DIRECT/LEEMAN
was that what was provided to you to look up Social Security
numbers before you came in here today?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you enter each of these Social Security numbers into
that PCOM system to determine whether they were assigned or
mismatched?
A
Yes.
Q
So, every Social Security Card in this exhibit, you took
that number and entered it into the system and checked; is that
right?
A
Yes.
Q
Could you tell us the results of that check?
A
Out of the 39 employees, 20 of them were unassigned and
19 of them were mismatched.
Q
Okay. And could you provide a little insight -- without
providing anyone's actual name, could you provide a little
insight into the nature of the mismatch? Were they
misspellings of names, or how would you characterize it?
A
Everything was mismatched, whether was the name, the
place of birth, the sex. Those were the three that I was able
to generate. I wasn't able to determine if the parents' names
were mismatched or not, because it's not on the permanent
resident card. So.
Q
Okay. In your role within the Social Security
Administration, are you familiar with what Social Security
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 66 of 177 PageID
4992
67
LEE LEFKOWITZ - DIRECT/LEEMAN
Card -- what form they take? Meaning what they look like?
A
I do. So basically Section 205 of the Social Security
Act requires that we take measures to prevent the card from
being counterfeited. So, starting in April of the 2007, we
started putting the issue date on the bottom of the card, on
the bottom right-hand side of the card.
Q
I don't want you to -- I don't want you to state any
opinion about these cards, but talk about other features that
are found on a Social Security Card.
A
The issue date would be one. On the outside of the
card, in very, very tiny letters, it says "Social Security".
Q
Okay. In one place, or --
A
All around the card, where the line is, the outside
line, it actually says "Social Security".
MR. LEEMAN: Okay. Let me have a moment,
Mr. Lefkowitz.
Can I have a moment, Judge?
THE COURT: You may.
(Mr. Leeman and Mr. Reichling confer privately.)
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, I don't have any further
questions for the witness.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Counsel?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 67 of 177 PageID
4993
68
LEE LEFKOWITZ - CROSS/WAID
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. WAID:
Q
Good morning, Mr. Lefkowitz.
A
Good morning.
Q
You stated on direct that you conduct training for whom?
A
For the Social Security Administration, for our new
employees as well as our current employees.
Q
Okay. And you stated that you conducted training
because the regulations are constantly changing; is that right?
A
Absolutely.
Q
So that's actually a lot of training; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. Because when people -- when new regulations are
passed, people need to understand how those work. Correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. You also said you had access to a secure system
to run Social Security numbers; is that right?
A
Correct.
Q
All right. And what was the name of that system?
A
It's a system called PCOM.
Q
PCOM. Okay. And do employers have access to that
system?
A
No.
Q
So that's just a private system from the Social Security
Administration?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 68 of 177 PageID
4994
69
LEE LEFKOWITZ - CROSS/WAID
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. And you actually review these documents for a
living; right?
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. So you're seeing these documents on a daily
basis?
A
Correct.
Q
Okay. But a regular citizen does not review Social
Security cards on a daily basis, do they.
A
I mean, all of our employees do. I mean, we issue the
cards. We don't review cards. I mean, generally, we take the
application, we enter the biographical information, and the
system automatically generates a random number. The numbers
are now randomized. I know, in the past, that wasn't the case.
But as far as actually physically reviewing the cards, I don't
think our claims specialists do that, because we already have
the number.
Q
Right. Okay. And that's people within the Social
Security Administration; is that right?
A
Correct.
MS. WAID: Correct. Okay.
Court's indulgence for one moment, please?
(Ms. Waid and Mr. Dickerson confer privately.)
MS. WAID: Just briefly. Sorry about that.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 69 of 177 PageID
4995
70
BY MR. DICKERSON:
Q
You stated you reviewed 39 documents; correct? Did you
review any other documents from Target Roofing?
A
From? From Target Roofing?
Q
Yes.
A
No.
Q
So you were provided those 39 documents; is that
correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And you were provided those documents by the government;
correct is that accurate?
A
Correct.
Q
But you haven't reviewed any other records held in the
custody and control of Target Roofing; is that accurate?
A
No.
MS. WAID: Thank you.
Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may stand down. Thank you.
(The witness left the witness stand and left the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Good time for a recess, or do you have a
short witness?
MR. REICHLING: No, Judge. This is a good time for a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 70 of 177 PageID
4996
71
DISCUSSION RE JURY INSTRUCTION
recess.
THE COURT: Okay. Let's take a morning recess.
Approximately 15 minutes. Do not discuss the case among
yourselves, or allow anyone to discuss it with you or in your
presence. See you in about 15 minutes.
(At 10:23 a.m., the jury was escorted from the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: All right. Fifteen minutes.
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, may I just briefly ask a
question?
THE COURT: Sure. You've been doing it all morning,
but go ahead.
MR. LEEMAN: To you, Your Honor?
I just want to make sure that we're prepared for
the . . . the Court has had some, I guess, concern about the
jury instruction, perhaps the interplay between one and two.
Just to make sure I come in and have something appropriate to
say, I'm a little, I guess, unsure of exactly what the Court's
concern is. I'm hoping it might say a little more about it. I
just don't want to come in unprepared and waste the Court's
time.
THE COURT: Now you don't want to waste my time.
Yes. My concern is, in the mail fraud count -- I'm sorry, the
bank fraud count, the statute can be violated in one of two
ways. You've alleged both ways. The Eleventh Circuit pattern
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 71 of 177 PageID
4997
72
DISCUSSION RE JURY INSTRUCTION
instruction deals with it as if it's just a single offense.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And it mixes elements that apply to one
and not the other, according to the Supreme Court. Both of you
submitted the pattern instruction. I don't see that that's
right, and therein lies my concern, I guess. The
Eleventh Circuit tells me to use that pattern, and you folks
tell me to use that pattern, and doesn't seem . . . .
MR. LEEMAN: I believe it was one of your law clerks
has provided us a copy of a court's proposed instruction?
THE COURT: That's correct.
MR. LEEMAN: It looks like that may attempt to clear
up that issue. At first blush, it seems that that's acceptable
to the government; but we'll confer before we meet and see if
that's actually the case.
THE COURT: And that's my concern. And I would call
your attention to the fact that's not pattern, and that's
Steele on bank fraud. I mean, you know, I made it up. And,
you know, I think I'm right, but I really do want your input.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: The other one that you may want to think
about is the aiding and abetting. Part of it, in terms of the
cause language that may be appropriate, but I don't see aiding
and abetting otherwise. I know you've got it alleged in the
indictment, but that instruction may need to get shortened.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 72 of 177 PageID
4998
73
DISCUSSION RE JURY INSTRUCTION
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, sir. And we also -- it may turn on
exactly what the defendant puts on for a case. But certainly
we will be thinking about that and prepared to address it, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you.
THE COURT: Any other questions?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Fifteen minutes.
MS. WAID: Thank you, Your Honor.
(At 10:26 a.m., court was recessed.)
AFTER RECESS
(At 10:48 a.m., court was reconvened.)
THE COURT: Both sides ready for the jury?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor. I did want to inform
the Court that the next witness will be Diane Knott. She will
be testifying about summary exhibits. The Court is going to
hear that she's hoarse. We did not want to scare everyone. We
asked, she went and got a COVID test this morning, it's
negative. She also has her COVID vaccine card. She was fully
vaccinated, I think it was three weeks ago.
But just, given the condition of her voice, I wanted
to preview that with the Court. I don't believe the jury
needs -- I'll leave it up to the Court as to whether the jury
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 73 of 177 PageID
4999
74
DISCUSSION RE JURY INSTRUCTION
should be told that, but Miss Knott has indicated she does not
mind if that's shared, if that makes everyone more comfortable.
THE COURT: Thoughts?
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, I don't think that needs
to be shared with the jury. We're good with it.
THE COURT: Okay. If we see some reaction from the
jury, we'll revisit it, but let's just start with having her
called as a normal witness.
All right. Have the jury step in, please.
(At 10:49 a.m., the jury was escorted into the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Your Honor. The government
calls Diane Knott.
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Good morning, Miss Knott.
Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you are
about to give in the case now before the Court will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you very much. If you would
have the seat in the witness box and, once seated, if you would
state your name and spell your name. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: My name is Diane Knott, D I A N E,
K N O T T.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 74 of 177 PageID
5000
75
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
DIANE KNOTT,
called as a witness by the Government, and having been first
duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. REICHLING:
Q
Ms. Knott, where are you currently employed?
A
I'm currently employed by Guidehouse.
Q
And what's Guidehouse?
A
Guidehouse is a consulting firm.
Q
And before working for Guidehouse, where did you work?
A
I worked as a contractor for Forfeiture Support, as a
contractor for the United States Attorney's Office.
Q
And that's the United States Attorney's Office in the
Middle District of Florida?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
And, before that, where did you work?
A
Before that, for 29 years I was a special agent with
Internal Revenue Service Criminal Investigation.
Q
And that's the IRS; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Now, in this particular case, were you asked to review
bank records and financial documents?
A
Yes, I was.
Q
And I'm going to ask that you look at the exhibits there
that are before you. You should see Exhibits 31, 33, 35, and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 75 of 177 PageID
5001
76
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Exhibits 67 through 131, and there should also be an
Exhibit 148 and 120 that's in that one pile there that you're
looking at --
A
Okay.
Q
-- also, that have already been entered into evidence as
those government's exhibits that I indicated.
A
Okay.
Q
And then to your right, I believe, you should see other
bank records that are not currently in evidence, but could you
take a look at those and confirm that you reviewed those as
part of this case?
(Witness examines evidence.)
A
Okay.
Q
And the records that you reviewed, how many accounts, in
total, would you say that you reviewed for this case?
A
Approximately ten.
Q
And were they with various financial institutions?
A
Yes.
Q
And what were some of those financial institutions?
A
Sanibel Captiva Community Bank, Bank of America,
Finemark Bank, and J.P. Morgan Chase Bank.
Q
And were the J.P. Morgan Chase records, were those
credit card records?
A
Yes.
Q
Were those records voluminous?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 76 of 177 PageID
5002
77
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
A
Yes.
Q
Did you create some summary exhibit charts to make it
easier for the jury and others to sort of synthesize and
understand what's contained within those records?
A
Yes, I did.
Q
Now, would you look at Government's Exhibits 153, 154,
155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 161, 163, 164, and I think that should
be it.
A
Yes. These are the summary charts that I prepared.
Q
Are they fair and accurate copies of the summary charts
that you prepared in this case?
A
Yes.
MR. REICHLING: The government would move to admit
Exhibits 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 161, 163, and 164
in evidence.
THE COURT: Any objections to those exhibits?
MR. DICKERSON: Just, Your Honor, if I could have a
chance to go through them real quick?
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. DICKERSON: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And just so I have it right, 160 and 162
are not being offered?
MR. REICHLING: That is correct, they are not, Judge.
THE COURT: The Court will admit 153, 154, 155, 156,
157, 158, 159, 161, 163, and 164.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 77 of 177 PageID
5003
78
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
(Government's Exhibits 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158,
159, 161, 163, 164 admitted.)
BY MR. REICHLING:
Q
And, Miss Knott, that middle stack of exhibits, could
you take a look at those? I know you looked at them
previously. That should contain Government's Exhibits 139, 66,
132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, and 168.
A
Yes. Did you say 138?
Q
I said 137. I said 168. If any of those exhibits are
not there, please let me know.
A
No; I believe they're all there, but there's also a 138
there.
MR. REICHLING: Let me -- if I may approach the
witness again, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. REICHLING:
Q
Is there also a Government's Exhibit 138 in front of
you?
A
Yes.
Q
Now, what are Exhibits 138, 139, and 66?
(Witness examines evidence.)
A
They're Bank of America documents.
Q
And do those documents each contain business record
certifications?
A
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 78 of 177 PageID
5004
79
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Q
And are they fair and accurate copies of the Bank of
America records that you reviewed in this case?
A
Yes, they are.
MR. REICHLING: At this time, Your Honor, the
government would move in what's been previously marked as
Government's Exhibits 138, 139, and 66 into evidence.
MR. DICKERSON: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Exhibits 66, 138, and 139 will be
admitted.
(Government's Exhibits 66, 138, 139 admitted.)
BY MR. REICHLING:
Q
Can you also take a look at Government's Exhibits 132,
133, 134, 135, 136, and 137?
A
Yes. These are the FineMark Bank records that I
reviewed.
Q
And do they all contain business record certifications?
A
Yes, they do.
Q
And are they fair and accurate copies of the FineMark
statements that you reviewed in this case?
A
Yes, they are.
MR. REICHLING: At this time, Your Honor, the
government would move what's been previously marked as
Government's Exhibits 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, and 137 into
evidence.
MR. DICKERSON: Just give me one second to finish
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 79 of 177 PageID
5005
80
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
reviewing them real quick, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. DICKERSON: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: The Court will admit Exhibits 132 through
137.
(Government's Exhibits 132 through 137 admitted.)
BY MR. REICHLING:
Q
And finally, Miss Knott, could you look at Government's
Exhibit 168, please?
(Witness examines evidence.)
A
Yes. These are the J.P. Morgan Chase records that I
reviewed.
Q
And for what account?
A
It is for the credit card account.
Q
For Target Roofing?
A
Yes.
Q
And is there a business record certification attached to
those documents?
A
Yes, there is.
Q
And is that a fair and accurate copy of the J.P. Morgan
Chase credit card statements that you reviewed for this case?
A
Yes.
MR. REICHLING: Your Honor, at this time the
government would move what's previously been marked as
Government's Exhibit 168 into evidence.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 80 of 177 PageID
5006
81
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
MR. DICKERSON: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: 168 will be admitted.
(Government's Exhibit 168 admitted.)
BY MR. REICHLING:
Q
Now, Miss Knott, what is the general timeframe of these
documents that you reviewed?
A
January of 2020 through September of 2020.
MR. REICHLING: And I'd like to begin by taking a
look at your summary exhibit, which is, I believe, Government's
Exhibit 158.
And permission to publish? I believe this has
already been admitted into evidence, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may publish anything that's been
admitted.
MR. REICHLING: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
BY MR. REICHLING:
Q
Could you explain to the jury what this is, Miss Knott?
A
This is a summary of the Target Roofing and Sheet Metal
PPP loan bank account ending in 6781.
Q
And you've reviewed the signature cards for this
account; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And who was the authorized signer on this account?
A
Casey Crowther.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 81 of 177 PageID
5007
82
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Q
And was this account opened in April of 2020?
A
Yes.
Q
Now, your chart here has various columns. Could you
just briefly tell the jury what each column means?
A
Well, the first column, under date, would be the date of
the transaction. The second column, for deposit, would be the
amount of the deposit deposited to the account. The source
column would be the source of the deposit item. The withdrawal
account -- or the withdrawal column would be the amount that
was withdrawn from the account. The payee would be the
destination of the money being withdrawn. And the balance
would be the balances at the end of the day of the transaction.
Q
What was the balance of the account on April 10, 2020?
A
On April 10th, the balance was zero.
Q
And when did that change?
A
On April 14th of 2020.
Q
Now, you indicate here that the source is SBA PPP loan
funding SBA. Is that taken from the actual bank statement that
you reviewed?
A
Yes.
Q
And what's the amount that was deposited into the
account?
A
$2,098,700.
Q
What's the first transaction following that deposit?
A
Two days later, on April 16th, there's a withdrawal for
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 82 of 177 PageID
5008
83
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
$126,000.
Q
And do you recall where that money goes to?
A
That money is transferred to the Target Roofing
operating account.
Q
And the . . . payee states: "Loan from Casey." Is that
located -- is that contained on the bank statement that you
reviewed?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
Now I'm going to show Government's Exhibit 153. Could
you just briefly tell the jury what Government's Exhibit 153
is?
A
153 is a summary of the Target Roofing and Sheet Metal,
Inc. operating account ending in 1791.
Q
And, as part of your review of these financial records
pertaining to this account, did you look at signature cards
that belong to that account?
A
I did.
Q
And who was the authorized signer on this account?
A
Casey Crowther was one of the signers on the account.
Q
Now, I'm going to go to, I believe it's going to be
Page 24 of this exhibit. And before I do that, Diane -- excuse
me, Miss Knott -- could you just tell the jury again, are these
the same columns that you had previously had in Government's
Exhibit 158?
A
They are. There's only one other column added, and it's
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 83 of 177 PageID
5009
84
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
just a check number column.
Q
And does that check number correspond with a check that
was issued from the account?
A
Yes.
Q
Now, on Page 24 of the document, towards the bottom of
your exhibit on Government's Exhibit 153, I'm going to Zoom in
here, is that a record of the money being put into the Target
Roofing operating account, Account 1791?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
Now, after that's done, is there a similar corresponding
withdrawal in an amount that's close to $126,000?
A
Yes. The following day, there is a payment to the Chase
credit card for $125,145.30.
Q
And is that what I am showing here on Page 25 of
Government's Exhibit 153?
A
Yes.
Q
And you stated that you have actually reviewed the Chase
credit card statements for that period of time; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And did you confirm that those funds did, in fact, go to
pay down that Chase credit card balance?
A
I did.
Q
Now I'm going to publish what's been previously admitted
as Government's Exhibit 161. Is this a summary of credit card
related payment withdrawals that have been made from the Target
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 84 of 177 PageID
5010
85
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Roofing operating account?
A
Yes.
Q
And could you just tell me -- of course, these may be
self-explanatory -- but what each one of these three columns
means?
A
Well, the date column is the date of the withdrawal.
The withdrawal column is the amount of the withdrawal. And the
payee shows that the payment was made to Chase credit card
ePay.
Q
Before April 17th of 2020, had there been any payments
made to the Chase credit card that came anywhere near $125,000?
A
No. They were all approximately ten to 20,000.
Q
Now, of course, we talked about your review of these
Chase credit card statements, which, let me get the exhibit
number correct here, should be Government's Exhibit 168. If
you could take a look at them.
A
Okay.
Q
What were the previous month balances owed on the credit
card for this J.P. Morgan Chase credit card for the months of
January, February, and March?
A
Well, in January the credit card balance was
$119,214.55. And the February balance was $123,279.26. And
the March balance was $122,498.28.
Q
Now I'd like you to tell the jury, based on your looking
at that -- those credit card statements, what is the max of the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 85 of 177 PageID
5011
86
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
credit card, what's the maximum credit limit?
A
The maximum credit card limit? Let me look for it.
(Witness examines evidence.)
Q
And, if I may, I can zoom in on it here in Government's
Exhibit . . . I think it's 168. Stated there revolving credit
amount?
A
The revolving credit amount is $150,000.
Q
Now I'd like you to take a look at Bates Stamp
Number 035, for Page 35 with a Bates number.
A
Okay.
Q
Towards the top of that exhibit -- towards the top of
Bates Exhibit 168, Page Number 35, could you tell the jury if
there is a transaction to a Sara Bay Marina?
A
Yes. On April 20th, there is a $5,000 charge to Sara Bay
Marine in Sarasota, Florida.
Q
And this transaction was made after the $125,000 payment
was made on the credit card to pay the balance down?
A
That's correct.
Q
If you could just tell the grand -- tell the jury, what
kind of transactions are on this credit card?
A
Well, there are some business transactions, but there
are also personal transactions involving restaurants, main
building payments, many equestrian related payments to feed
stores and ranches.
Q
And does it appear that Casey Crowther, of course, is an
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 86 of 177 PageID
5012
87
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
authorized user of that credit card?
A
Yes, he is.
Q
And are there other authorized users of the credit card
as well?
A
Yes, there are.
Q
And does the credit card statement segregate each
authorized user's use of the credit card?
A
Yes, it does.
Q
And the $5,000 marina transaction on April 20th, 2020,
was that from Casey Crowther's use of the credit card?
A
Yes, it was.
Q
Now I want to go back to Government's Exhibit 158, which
is, I believe, your summary chart of the PPP account that you
mentioned. Following the loan from Casey entry on April 16,
2020, what is the next transaction?
A
On April 20 -- excuse me, April 21st, there's an
outgoing wire transfer to Steven Adkins for $100,000.
Q
And can you take a look at Government's Exhibit 31
that's already in evidence?
A
Okay.
Q
And what was the purpose of that wire transfer?
A
It states that the purpose of the wire is a payroll
transfer.
Q
Now, after that transaction on April 21st, 2020, what is
the next transaction?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 87 of 177 PageID
5013
88
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
A
Next transaction is the following day, on April 22nd,
for $3,300, and it's a transfer to the personal account ending
in 3439.
Q
And when you say a personal account, who were the
account holders?
A
Casey Crowther and Margaret Crowther.
Q
And you created a chart summarizing that particular
account; correct?
A
I did.
Q
And I believe that is Government's Exhibit 157.
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
Q
Is that the summary exhibit you created for account
3439?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
And does it show the money, the $3,300 being deposited
into this account?
A
Yes. On April 22nd.
Q
And is that shown here?
A
Yes.
Q
And is there a subsequent corresponding transaction in a
similar amount that involves a withdrawal from the account?
A
Yes. There's a $3,330 Venmo payment made the
following day.
Q
Now I'm going to go back to Exhibit 158, which is the
summary of the PPP account. What is the balance on the account
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 88 of 177 PageID
5014
89
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
at this point with the funds that are in the PPP account?
A
After the $3,300 withdrawal there, the balance is
$1,869,400.
Q
What is the next transaction, then, after that $3,300
Venmo transfer that went to the personal account?
A
The next transaction is on April 24th of 2020. It's an
outgoing wire transfer to Sara Bay Marina for $689,417.
Q
Can you take a look at Government's Exhibit 33? It
should be in that stack there of exhibits. And is that the
wire transfer ticket for that transaction?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
And what was the purpose of that wire?
A
The purpose of the wire states equipment purchase.
Q
Now, going back to Government's Exhibit 158, it appears
there's a $20 outgoing wire fee that is applied towards that
wire transfer?
A
That's correct.
Q
And, at that point, how much money is left in that PPP
account?
A
The balance is $1,179,163.
Q
And what happens with that money after April 24th, 2020?
A
On May 7th, the balance of the account is transferred to
the Target Roofing and Sheet Metal operating account ending in
1791.
Q
I'm going to go back to Government's Exhibit 153, which
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 89 of 177 PageID
5015
90
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
I believe is the summary of the operating account. And I'd
like to direct your attention to Page 30 of that document.
A
Okay.
Q
And I'm going to zoom in on it here, on the projector.
But is this the transfer in of the funds into the operating
account on 5/7/2020?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
And that's where I have the little mouse thing up there;
right?
A
That's correct.
Q
All right. What's the next financial transaction in the
main operating account for Target Roofing after that money is
deposited?
A
On the same day, there's an $800,000 online transfer to
a loan number ending in 0854, which is a line of credit.
Q
And have you reviewed documents concerning this
particular line of credit?
A
Yes.
Q
And who is this a line of credit for?
A
It's a line of credit for Target Roofing.
Q
Now I would like you to take a look at Government's
Exhibit 120. It's going to be in that large stack of documents
that's already been admitted into evidence. I hope it is, at
least.
A
Okay.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 90 of 177 PageID
5016
91
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Q
I'm going to direct your attention to Page Number 6 of
that document.
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
Q
Is this the . . . statement for this line of credit?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
And on the date that these funds were transferred over
to pay down the balance of the line of credit, which I believe
is going to be reflected in the bottom of Page 6 of
Government's Exhibit 120, did you know what the maximum
available line of credit was for this? For this particular
line of credit loan?
A
I'd have to look at it. I'd have to guess. But I want
to look at it to make sure I say the right thing.
Q
Okay. And I believe there's a government's exhibit
there, Government's Exhibit 148, that you can take a look at.
Tell me if you recognize it after you take a look at it.
A
Yes. The credit line is for 1.5 million.
Q
And is that document you have before you, what's its
title?
A
What is it titled you say?
Q
Yeah.
A
It's titled "Amended Restated Increased and Renewal
Revolving Line of Credit Promissory Note."
Q
And was that a document that was executed when the line
of credit amount was increased to $1.5 million?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 91 of 177 PageID
5017
92
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
A
Yes.
Q
Now, on the date that the funds were transferred into
paying down this line of credit, what was the balance on the
line of credit? Was it $800,000 approximately?
A
Yes.
Q
So, once this line of credit was made, the balance in
the line of credit was zero?
A
That's correct.
Q
And you mentioned, I believe it was, Government's
Exhibit 148, which I want to get to here momentarily. Is there
a provision contained within Government's Exhibit 148
concerning the use of the line of credit proceeds?
A
Yes, there is.
Q
And is that contained on Page 2 of Government's
Exhibit 148?
A
Yes.
Q
And what does it say? Could you read it for me?
A
It says, "Use of proceeds. Proceeds of this note shall
be used solely as a working line of credit to assist with
processing work orders and purchasing supplies to complete
jobs."
Q
Now, in your review of the main operating account for
Target Roofing and Sheet Metal, were you able to determine how
rent was paid by the business for, I would assume it's
commercial property?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 92 of 177 PageID
5018
93
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
A
Yes. It was transferred into a separate account, and
then the payment was made from there.
Q
And do you recall -- and I could put it up here. I will
put it up here on the projector. What account that was?
A
It was transferred into an account -- a Laredo account.
I believe it's 8115.
Q
Now I'm going to show you Government's Exhibit 163, and
I believe it's a summary of all the rent payments that were
made out of that Target Roofing main operating account? If you
can confirm that after you take a look at it, that would be
helpful.
A
Yes, that's correct.
Q
Before the date of May 21st, 2020, what was the amount
of money that was being transferred to this Laredo account that
you referenced every month?
A
$13,130.33.
Q
And did that increase at some point in time?
A
Yes. The next month, on May 21st, it increased to
$22,000.
Q
Now, you have done a summary exhibit of the
corresponding account breaking down deposit and withdrawals for
this account ending in 8115, which is the Laredo account?
A
Yes, I have.
Q
I think that's Government's Exhibit 159.
A
Yes. This is a summary that I created.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 93 of 177 PageID
5019
94
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Q
Now I'll have you look at just the first page of your
exhibit here. Typically, and I'll look at the transaction on
1/24/2020, could you just generally break down what happens in
this account? And I believe the column second to the left is
the incoming deposit amount?
A
Yes, that's correct.
Q
And the account next to it is the entry of what it is?
A
Yes.
Q
And is that the money being transferred over to this
Laredo account?
A
Yes.
Q
And then, after that happens, when it's transferred over
from the main operating account of Target Roofing, what is the
next transaction?
A
Are you talking about the rent payments?
Q
Following the rent payment on 1/24 of $13,130.33, what's
the next transaction?
A
Yes. A payment is made out to the commercial real
estate loan for $14,550.60.
Q
And does that $14,550.60 mortgage payment change in
the months of May and June, if you know?
A
I don't believe so. It remains the same.
Q
And let me ask you this: There's another transaction
here, of $1,500, it looks like it happens on January 24th,
2020, in the amount of $1,500 on July 31st, 2020, for 15,000,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 94 of 177 PageID
5020
95
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
and then once again on February 13th, and so on and so forth.
Where is that money going to?
A
Yes; it's a weekly deposit for $1,500, and then it's --
the next day, that same $1,500 is transferred into Casey and
Margaret Crowther's personal account.
Q
Now, just going back to what I was talking about, about
the rent and, also, these corresponding mortgage payments, I'm
gonna zoom in on . . . . I'm going to have you take a look at
the bottom of the first page of that exhibit. At the
last . . . transaction on that particular exhibit, for
May 21st, 2020. What's the amount of money being deposited
into the account?
A
$22,000.
Q
And that was an increase from the prior deposits that
were made into the account?
A
Yes.
Q
And then the corresponding payment made for mortgage,
does that -- well, I'm not good at zooming in here. Is that it
there?
A
Yes. That's the $14,550.60 payment to the commercial
real estate loan.
Q
Now, you've reviewed the signature cards and other
account related documents for that Laredo account?
A
Yes.
Q
And who is the authorized signer on that account?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 95 of 177 PageID
5021
96
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
A
May I look at the signature card?
Q
Yes. I'll try and get you the exhibit number as quick
as I can. It should be -- well, there's two signature cards.
I believe it's for 8841; correct? Is that the account we're
talking about?
A
The Laredo is 8115.
Q
I'm sorry. It should be . . . Government's Exhibit 121.
My apologies.
A
Yes. There's two signatures on this account: Steve
Adkins and Casey Crowther.
Q
Okay. Now I want to talk about these other -- some of
these other financial institutions that you looked at, of
course besides the J.P. Morgan Chase account. I want to talk
about the Bank of America account that you looked at.
A
Okay.
Q
Whose account was that?
A
Casey Crowther and Margaret Crowther's.
Q
And from what -- from your looking at those particular
records, was this a personal account?
A
Yes.
Q
And is this also the account that Mr. Crowther and
Mrs. Crowther would receive direct deposits in regarding
employment?
A
Yes.
Q
And did you create a summary exhibit of that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 96 of 177 PageID
5022
97
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
particular -- for that particular account?
A
I did.
Q
See if I can get the right exhibit number here. I
believe it's Exhibit 156.
A
Yes, that's correct, that's the exhibit that I created.
Or the summary chart that I created.
Q
Now I want to direct your attention to May of 2020 on
your chart. Is there incoming direct deposits that are made
from a Workforce Business DES, specifically on May 1st of 2020?
A
Yes; there is a deposit for Casey Crowther.
Q
And does there come a time, in your review of these
transactions -- and in looking at this . . . sorry. It's not
up there. My apologies. And I'm just -- just to show you
again, so that the jury can see it, that's the May 1st
transaction, it's the Workforce Business Direct deposit;
correct?
A
That's correct.
Q
Now, does there come a time in which this same entry for
a direct deposit is not only for Mr. Crowther, Casey Crowther,
but it's also for a Margaret Crowther?
A
Yes; on May 22nd.
Q
And is that shown there, on your exhibit that I have
projected up above you?
A
Yes.
Q
And what's the direct deposit amount for Margaret
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 97 of 177 PageID
5023
98
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Crowther?
A
$1,591.48.
Q
And what's the direct deposit amount for Casey Crowther,
the owner of Target Roofing?
A
$1,567.11.
Q
Now, you've reviewed deposits, of course, associated
with this account, other than the direct deposits that are put
into this bank account weekly or every month; is that correct?
A
That's correct.
Q
And have you also reviewed checks that have been
deposited into the account?
A
Yes.
Q
I'd like to direct your attention to August 20th of
2020.
A
Okay.
Q
Should be on Page 5 of your exhibit.
A
Yes.
Q
Could you read that deposit on August 20, 2020, that is
in an amount of around $900?
A
It's a deposit for $942.90. And the source is WBS, and
the check is made payable to Agustin Castillo.
Q
Now, have you actually taken a look at this check that
was deposited into that account?
A
Yes, I have.
Q
And I'm getting the exhibit number for you now, because
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 98 of 177 PageID
5024
99
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
it is in front of you. It should be Government's Exhibit 66.
A
Yes. This is the check that was deposited.
Q
And that was the check that was deposited on August 20
of 2020; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And I'm going to publish it here. And, of course, the
first page is the business record certification?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
Could you read from Government's Exhibit 66, Page 2, and
tell me who the person who was paid, the payee for this check?
A
The check says pay to the order of Agustin Castillo.
Q
And is there a memo section to this check?
A
There is a memo section that indicates pay period dates
of May 18th of 2020 to May 24th of 2020.
Q
And what is the date on the check that the check was
issued?
A
May 29th of 2020.
Q
And who appears to be the issuer of this check?
A
WBS, which is a payroll company.
Q
And have you looked at the back of the check?
A
Yes.
Q
And it's obviously up and down, but could you read --
that's the purpose of the back of a check?
A
Well, the back of the check would be signed by the
person that is seeking to cash or deposit the check.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 99 of 177 PageID
5025
100
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Q
And what does the top line say? And you've got the
exhibit before you, too, so if it's hard for you to read off
that, you could read off the physical exhibit.
A
The top line says: "Pay to Casey Crowther."
Q
And then, three lines down, could you make out what that
is?
A
It appears to be the signature of Agustin Castillo.
Q
And then, below that, what's that, just another
signature?
A
It appears to be Casey Crowther's signature.
Q
Now, you've conducted a review of quite a few different
bank accounts, as we've discussed, and specifically with the
Target banking accounts and other accounts. Did you review
records concerning another account, called Jade Avenue?
A
Yes.
Q
And was Mr. Crowther the authorized signer on that
account?
A
Yes.
Q
And you also, of course, looked at FineMark records?
A
I did.
Q
And these Bank of America records that we've talked
about.
A
That's correct.
Q
Now, you have created an exhibit, I believe it
summarizes deposits that were made in account 1791, and I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 100 of 177 PageID
5026
101
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
believe that's Government's Exhibit 154. And this is the main
operating account again?
A
Yes.
Q
And there are different row labels. Could you explain,
for the sum of deposit column, what those row labels mean?
What are they?
A
Well, this is a summary of all of the deposits added
together. So, for instance, the top line would say 7-Eleven.
So 7-Eleven would be all of the . . . would be all of the
deposits made from 7-Eleven for that particular year. So in
May there was a penny made from 7-Eleven, in July there was
$3,445.20, and in August there was $1,174.56.
Q
And does this sum of deposits -- I've got general
categories here. I see non-cash business receipts. What's
that?
A
That was -- the deposits to the Target Roofing account
included numerous checks every month from people who were
having their roof done, so the check amount -- the checks were
very voluminous. So we lumped them together as non-cash
business receipts, which would mean they were all in check
form, there was no cash within those deposits.
Q
Now, I notice that the amount for September is $38,000.
Is that because you only looked at a few days in the month of
September?
A
Yes, that's correct.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 101 of 177 PageID
5027
102
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Q
And that would have been up to September 2nd of 2020?
A
Yes.
Q
Now, I don't see anything here indicating that there
were any cash deposits that were made in the account over the
course of these months. Would you have entered an entry for
cash deposits?
A
I would have had there been some cash deposits during
that timeframe.
Q
And did you see any cash deposits made into the main
operating account between the months of January and September,
at least any that would have caught your eye?
A
There were no cash deposits up through September 2nd.
Q
Now, what about the other records regarding Target
Roofing? Of course, we talked about the PPP account. Were
there any cash deposits in that account?
A
No.
Q
What about that Laredo account, if you recall, if there
were any cash deposits inside of that.
A
No.
Q
And the Jade Avenue account, were there any cash
deposits into that account?
A
No.
Q
And the personal account that's at Sanibel Captiva Bank
with Margaret Crowther and Casey Crowther, were there any cash
deposits that you recall?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 102 of 177 PageID
5028
103
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
A
No.
Q
Now I want to show what's been introduced into evidence
already as Government's Exhibit 165.
(Evidence was published via the projector.)
Q
Have you got it in front of you?
A
Yes.
Q
Could you just briefly explain this -- what each column
means in this particular chart?
A
Well, the first column, under the date column, is the
date of the transaction.
The second column indicates what happened on that date.
The third column is the amount of the transaction.
The next column, where it says balance of 6781, which is
the PPP account, would be the ending balance after the
transaction.
The next column, it says balance of account 1791, Target
operating account, is the actual balance at the end of
that day.
And then the next column, after the dark black line,
says balance of 1791 if account is reimbursed by utilities,
payroll, and rent expenses. That particular amount in that
column is . . . is the balance of the 1791 account in the
previous column.
And then I would add in any payments that were made for
utilities, payroll, and rent, to give . . . to give Target
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 103 of 177 PageID
5029
104
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Roofing the benefit of having those expenses reimbursed.
And then there are three other columns that are the
balances of the Crowther personal account, the balance of the
Jade Avenue account, and the balance of the Laredo account.
And then the final column is the total of the previous
four accounts.
Q
Now, on the date of the 4/24/2020 wire to Sara Bay
Marina, I'd like you to tell the jury what the account balance
is in the 1791 operating account if you did not apply credit
for the utilities, rent, and . . . payroll expenses that you
saw in that account.
A
That amount would be in the fifth column, on the date
4/24/2020, and the balance would have been $131,768.58.
Q
And what was the balance . . . . What was the balance
in the personal account at Target Roofing for Casey and
Margaret Crowther, the account ending in 2439 on that date?
A
May 24th of 2020 balance in the personal account was
$5,286.60.
Q
And what about the Jade Avenue account?
A
The balance was $418.10.
Q
And what about the Laredo Avenue account?
A
The balance was $27,603.04.
Q
On the date that the money was wired to Sara Bay Marina,
were there sufficient funds in other accounts outside of the
PPP account to pay for the 689,000 wire transfer?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 104 of 177 PageID
5030
105
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
A
No.
Q
And, up until this point in time, you saw no record of
any cash deposits; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Now, I'd like to go down to this credit section that you
gave credit for for various payments that were made between the
date of 4/14, which is the day Target Roofing received its PPP
account, and the date that the wire transfer was sent to Sara
Bay Marina. Could you break down what payroll had been paid
towards -- what withdrawals were made to WBS on -- from the
1791 account on the dates of 4/20, 2020, and 4/24, 2020?
A
On April 20th of 2020, there was a payment to the
payroll, the payroll company WBS, for $96,624.31. And then
there was another payment, on April 24th of 2020, the same
purpose, for $127,775.99.
Q
Now, from your review of the account records concerning
the PPP account and the main operating account, was there any
transfer of funds -- and we already sort of talked about
this -- from the PPP account to the main operating account
between these dates to cover any of these payroll expenses?
A
No.
Q
And what were the two utility payments that you had
identified there? And it says FPL. We're probably all
familiar, but what is FPL?
A
Florida Power & Light electric bill.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 105 of 177 PageID
5031
106
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Q
And what were the bills?
A
One was for $45.88, and one was for $1,074.34.
Q
And then what about rent? What was the rent payment
between the dates of 4/14 and 4/24?
A
There was a rent payment transferred to the Laredo
account for $13,130.33.
Q
Were any of the funds from the PPP account transferred
to the Target Roofing main operating account to pay for any of
these expenses that we just talked about?
A
No.
Q
Had Mr. Crowther applied -- or sort of repaid himself
for paying for these expenses, what would the balance have been
in the main operating account on the day of the wire for the
boat? And I'm going to zoom in on it here.
A
The balance would have been $370,419.43.
Q
And would that have -- would that, along with the
balances in the personal account, 3439, the account balance in
the Jade Avenue account, and the account balance in the Laredo
Avenue account, covered the cost of the wire transfer on
April 24th, 2020?
A
No.
Q
And is this red box here the sum of the credit applied
for those particular expenses, the various accounts we just
talked about, as well as the main operating account?
A
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 106 of 177 PageID
5032
107
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
Q
Now I want you to just briefly explain here, because I
see there's an entry of 3/24, says 2021, but I believe you
meant 2020; is that correct?
A
Yes, that's correct.
Q
And why did you create this particular column, or row?
A
Just to show what the account balances were like in the
previous month.
Q
And was there any difference in the account balance back
in March than in April with the main operating account?
A
Just slightly. They were similar balances though.
Well, I mean, actually, the balance -- yes, the balance in the
previous month was actually more than double. $287,849.37.
Q
And is that what I've got the little mouse over?
A
Yes, correct.
Q
And then this was -- the bottom here, is that the
balance that was actually in the account on the day of the wire
transfer for the boat?
A
Yes.
MR. REICHLING: One moment, Your Honor, if I may just
confer with co-counsel.
THE COURT: You may.
(Mr. Reichling and Mr. Leeman confer privately.)
MR. REICHLING: Your Honor, I have no further
questions at this time.
THE COURT: Okay. Let me check an exhibit number
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 107 of 177 PageID
5033
108
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
here. You made reference to an Exhibit 165?
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Judge, I did.
THE COURT: Did you want that to be admitted?
MR. REICHLING: I thought I admitted it into
evidence, but I will do it now.
THE COURT: I don't have it on my list, nor does the
Courtroom Deputy.
MR. DICKERSON: It's all right, Your Honor. I don't
have it on my list, either, but we have no problem with it
being admitted.
THE COURT: We'll admit 165 then.
(Government's Exhibit 165 admitted.)
THE COURT: Mr. Dickerson, would you like to have
lunch or start your cross?
MR. DICKERSON: I think it would be best to have
lunch, Your Honor, because this is going to be a lengthy cross.
THE COURT: Okay. Let's take an hour for lunch. Did
that work all right yesterday, an hour? All right. About 1:00
o'clock we'll get started. Don't discuss the case among
yourselves or allow anyone to discuss it with you or in your
presence. See you at 1:00.
(At 11:54 a.m., the jury was escorted from the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: All right. 1:00 o'clock.
(At 11:55 a.m., court was recessed.)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 108 of 177 PageID
5034
109
DIANE KNOTT - DIRECT/REICHLING
AFTER RECESS
(At 1:01 p.m., court was reconvened.)
THE COURT: Both sides ready for the jury?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
May I ask, briefly, before they come in, the
government believes it's close to resting its case. One thing
the government would ask the Court to do, if the Court is
inclined to do this, is take judicial notice of its docket, and
just state to the jury that, on September 2nd, Mr. Crowther was
informed of the charges in this case.
That's the date of his initial appearance, that's the
date through which Miss Knott's financial analysis goes
through, and so it may be relevant to the government's -- well,
we do believe it's relevant, and anything after that in his
bank accounts would be done with knowledge that he's being
pursued for criminal charges.
THE COURT: We'll see how the rest of the case,
including cross, goes.
All right. Have the jury step in, please.
(At 1:02 p.m., the jury was escorted into the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Mr. Dickerson, you may proceed.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 109 of 177 PageID
5035
110
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. DICKERSON:
Q
Good afternoon, Mrs. Knott.
A
Good afternoon.
Q
My name is Brian Dickerson. I'm counsel for
Mr. Crowther. I'll be asking you some questions based on the
government's questions.
I believe you testified that you were formally employed
by this U.S. Attorney's Office; correct?
A
That's correct.
Q
And when --
A
Well, as a contractor. Yes.
Q
You were hired as a contractor by the U.S. Attorney's
Office in what time period?
A
I was hired by Forager Support Associates as a
contractor position for the United States Attorney's Office.
And that timeframe was March of 2017 through September of 2020.
Q
Okay. Thank you very much.
I didn't catch the -- I guess the base of your testimony
here. You're not here as a fact witness; correct?
A
No.
Q
And you're not here to provide any opinion, at all;
correct?
A
That's correct.
Q
You're just here to summarize documents.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 110 of 177 PageID
5036
111
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
A
That's correct.
Q
And if you need to take a drink of water, or take a
break, just let me know.
A
That's okay. I apologize for my voice.
Q
You don't have to apologize.
So the purpose here for you, you were told to come here
and summarize documents.
A
Yes.
Q
And you made reports, the summary reports, based upon
you summarizing these documents.
A
Correct.
Q
Who told you to create these reports?
A
I was asked by the United States Attorney's Office.
Q
Okay. And, when we look at these reports, do they give
you the precise instruction as to what they wanted you to
specifically look at in the reports?
A
No. They just asked me to summarize the bank documents.
Q
All right. So, when we are looking at these various
columns on your various summaries, you're the one that
independently selected the date, the withdrawal, the payee,
you're the one that made that determination that that's what
you wanted on your summary document?
A
I've been creating summary documents like that for
35 years, so that's what, usually, my summary document looks
like.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 111 of 177 PageID
5037
112
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
So you have your own basis for what you're going to
choose to summarize in these documents.
A
Well, I make it reflect what was on the bank statements.
Q
All right. So was there any limitations on what you
complete in your summary?
A
As with respect to what?
Q
Were there any limitations as to the request we want you
to summarize these documents from the U.S. Attorney's Office,
was there any limitation on what you were to summarize?
A
No. Other than, you know, just summarize January
through September 2nd.
Q
All right. So you were limited to that January, 2020,
time period.
A
Well, the bank records started on January 1st, so
that's -- I didn't have any records prior to that.
Q
Thus you were limited to start January, 2020.
A
Correct.
Q
And you just reviewed bank records; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And you didn't review all the financial information for
Target Roofing in this analysis.
A
As far as records from Target Roofing? You mean like
journals, or things like that?
Q
Correct.
A
No; I didn't have access to anything like that.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 112 of 177 PageID
5038
113
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
So you weren't provided any QuickBooks or financial
documents of Target Roofing to complete this analysis.
A
No.
Q
In one of Mr. Reichling's questions, he asked you what
the sum of a specific record was. I believe it's 164. What
did you mean by sum? And I'm not going to go to that. I'm
just trying to figure out what you meant by sum. Asking you
what you think it was.
A
I would need to see the records to see what context it
was used in.
Q
No problem. 165. Are you --
A
And he asked me the sum of what?
Q
He asked you what the sum of the total for Document 165,
and you came up with the answer of 403,000.
A
Correct. That was the sum of the previous four
accounts.
Q
Okay. And I'm just asking what is your definition of
sum?
A
It's an addition.
Q
Of all of the previous figures, expenses? That's what
I'm just asking.
A
It's the sum of certain accounts.
Q
So your answer to that was basically you summed up the
previous numbers to get that total number.
A
Correct.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 113 of 177 PageID
5039
114
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
Okay. If you would look at Government's Exhibit 153.
And go to Page 26.
A
Okay.
Q
I'm looking at 4/23/2020. That is a -- what you would
define as a non-cash business receipt?
A
Okay.
Q
Is that correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Because that's your description of them; correct?
A
Yes.
Q
And that's for 101,000; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And then, 4/24, you have a deposit of $1,242.08;
correct?
A
Correct.
Q
4/24, deposit of 49,177; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And 4/24, there's a second deposit; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And that's for $82,349.16?
A
Correct.
Q
4/27, a deposit for $55,362.05? Correct?
A
Yup. Yes.
Q
And I just want to look at two more. 4/29, 192,621.63.
Correct?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 114 of 177 PageID
5040
115
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
A
Correct.
Q
April 30th, another $90,757.03.
A
Yes.
Q
And that's where we're finished. On May 1st, there's a
deposit for $6,928.50, and then a second deposit that day of
$179,312.71; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
You didn't total up those specific dollar amounts to
figure any analysis; correct? In your report. Your summary.
A
I didn't total them where?
Q
You didn't make a summary of the sums of those deposits.
A
There is a summary of deposits. There is a summary of
deposits.
Q
Right. But the ones that I just discussed, from
April 23rd to May 1st, you don't have a report specifically
with the sum of those deposits.
A
No, I don't.
Q
Right. And you would agree with me those deposits are
all made within seven days of April 24th, 2020; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Now, when you're conducting your analysis -- I'm sorry,
you're creating your summary sheets, that's not on a cash or an
accrual type basis; correct?
A
No; it's just a . . . it's a summary of the transactions
on the bank statements and the balance in the account is as of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 115 of 177 PageID
5041
116
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
that day.
Q
So it is just that is the balance in that account on
that given day demonstrated by the bank statement.
A
Correct.
Q
And a bank statement, I think you testified, won't show
cash on hand; correct?
A
You mean, if you have cash somewhere else, would a bank
statement show that you have cash sitting at home?
Q
Well, how about petty cash is pretty common with a
business; is that right?
A
Right.
Q
And it doesn't show petty cash, does it.
A
Not a bank statement, no.
Q
And it doesn't show cash that somebody personally has;
is that correct?
A
Correct.
Q
So you would agree with me that these summaries are just
limited to these bank statements, and not subject to any
financial transactions.
A
That's correct.
Q
And you would agree with me that the deposits show
actually when the checks cleared, or was your analysis when
they actually deposit it in the bank?
A
It is when they clear, which is what is in the bank
statement.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 116 of 177 PageID
5042
117
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
And, when monies are cleared, is that the same day as
they're deposited?
A
It could be, but it's usually when the bank in which it
was drawn on received notice that the bank -- that the cash has
been declared. Or has been cashed.
Q
So then these bank statements are just showing when they
were actually cleared, not when they were actually -- I mean
the deposits were physically deposited at the bank.
A
Correct. Let me go back. Are you talking about
withdrawals, or are you talking about deposits?
Q
I didn't mention anything about withdrawals.
A
Okay. If we're talking about deposits, we're talking
about the day -- the bank statement is going to reflect the day
that that particular check was deposited into the bank.
Q
Okay. So your reflection on these summary reports, 5/1
is the day that that $86,928.90 was deposited, not when it
cleared.
A
Correct. It's the day it's deposited. When you bring
in money into a bank, you bring it in on May 1st, then it's
gonna reflect the deposit on May 1st. Now, I mean the check
may take a couple of days to clear the person who wrote the
check into their bank account. It may not reflect the same day
on the person who wrote the check, but the deposit is going to
be the day that you actually brought the check in and deposited
it into the bank.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 117 of 177 PageID
5043
118
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
That's all I'm trying to ask. I'm trying to get your
definition of what you used to do your summary.
A
Yes; which is what the bank statement would reflect.
Q
And I believe you also did a summary of payroll;
correct?
A
Yes.
Q
I believe that's Exhibit 164. I apologize if I take
time trying to find it.
A
Okay.
Q
And that's Exhibit 164. And what -- and again, is this
exhibit --
A
What is the exhibit? The exhibit is a . . . just a
reflection of the withdrawals to Workforce Business Services
and the date that the transaction was made.
Q
And Workforce Business Services is the payroll; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
So this is -- I'm just trying to clear the -- if we look
at 4/20, that is the day that the payroll was paid, or
processed? Do you know? For your summary?
A
Since that has a column with check numbers in it, that
means that they wrote a check to Workforce Business Services.
So you'd have to look at the actual check to see the date they
wrote the check. That would be the date that the check
actually cleared the bank.
Q
So the date is just the date of the check; correct?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 118 of 177 PageID
5044
119
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
A
No. The date is the date that it cleared the bank.
Q
All right. So, on your report here, summary, the date
is when it cleared, the check number, but you don't have the
date of the check.
A
I could look at the actual check and look at the date of
the check.
Q
Okay. So you could make a review and make that
determination.
A
Sure.
Q
Can you do this? Do you have the ability to total up
any numbers on your summary report? I doubt you have a
calculator or anything; correct?
A
No, I don't.
Q
Okay. What if you were to take from April 24th, 2020,
the top of the chart, down to 8/13/2020, what would be -- and I
know you can't do it in your head. Do you know what the sum of
those payroll expenses would be?
A
Can I have a calculator?
Q
I can give you my iPhone if you would like to use it.
MR. REICHLING: I'm going to object. This is a waste
of time. To use it to do calculations? What point is the
defense trying to make here? I'm trying to figure it out.
THE COURT: Well, the objection is overruled.
To the extent you've got a calculator and want to
give it to her, or an iPhone with a calculator, you may do so.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 119 of 177 PageID
5045
120
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
(Mr. Dickerson provided an iPhone to the Courtroom
Deputy, who cleaned it and provided it to the witness, who
uses the iPhone to make mathematical calculations.)
THE WITNESS: Okay. It's a rough calculation. I
didn't put in the pennies.
MR. DICKERSON: I accept that.
THE WITNESS: It's, I come up with $3,001,287.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. And keep that open because
then we'll go back to those deposits.
BY MR. DICKERSON:
Q
If you could, the sum of the deposits from 4/23, do you
want me to read them off for you, or I can just enlarge it for
you?
A
Yes, please.
Q
Okay. 63,352.
A
Okay.
Q
I'm going to the next one, ma'am.
A
Oh.
Q
192,621.
A
Okay.
Q
90,757.
A
Okay.
Q
86,928.
A
Okay.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 120 of 177 PageID
5046
121
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
179,312.
A
Okay.
Q
And what is that sum?
A
602,980.
Q
Thank you. Hopefully, we won't have to use the
calculator again. You can put it aside.
If you could look at Exhibit 159, please, ma'am.
A
Okay.
Q
And which document is this?
A
This is a summary of the Laredo, LLC account ending in
8115.
Q
And I believe the government asked you about various
rent payments on this document; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
What about March? There's several rent deposits on
March that are over just that $13,130; correct? I'm looking
at . . . the first one starts on 3/5/2020.
A
3/5/2020, there's a deposit for $1,500.
Q
And going down to 3/26, there's more than just that
one monthly rent payment; correct?
A
Yes. There's a monthly rent payment, and then there's a
loan payment. Correct.
Q
And what is this $5,069.67?
A
It's a loan payment. It says principal is 1,681.78, and
interest is $3,387.89.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 121 of 177 PageID
5047
122
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
Okay. Thank you. You also discussed a payment of 3300
that went into the personal account and then went to Venmo;
correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And what is Venmo?
A
Venmo is just an app that is used to pay someone else
money.
Q
And that's the ability to -- if you have that app, you
can transfer money back and forth?
A
Correct.
Q
Do you know what that transfer was for from Venmo?
A
No. You can't tell from the statement.
Q
Do you know, does Target Roofing have a Venmo account?
A
I would not know.
Q
All right. So you didn't have any Venmo account
statements in your review; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
You were also asked about a Bank of America deposit.
A
Yes.
Q
Were you asked to specifically look that the deposit, or
did you look at all deposits made at Bank of America?
A
I looked at all the deposits.
Q
All right. So that one deposit in the Bank of America
bank record was not pointed out to you for you to review?
A
I mean, it was -- it was discussed, but I -- I reviewed
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 122 of 177 PageID
5048
123
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
the entire account, but it was discussed. I mean, when I make
a deposit like that, I'll look at all the deposit items and
indicate what's reflected on the records.
Q
Other than that one deposit of $942.90 -- and it's
Exhibit 156 if you need to look at it.
A
156. Is it -- are you talking about the deposit item?
Q
I'm talking it's the Bank of America, Government's
Exhibit 156, it looks like a summary that you created --
A
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about the
actual deposit item. Yes, I have it.
Q
Okay. With regard to this Bank of America account, is
it your understanding that this account was opened on
3/13/2020?
A
No.
Q
So I guess I'm asking why does this account analysis
start on 3/13/20 and the other analyses for the other accounts
start on January 1st, 2020?
A
Probably because I actually was running out of time. I
just -- I have another job that I was doing, and I just didn't
have the time; and the deposits before that timeframe just did
not appear relevant to the case, so I started it with 3/13,
because that's when the bank statements for March started.
Q
How much time did you have to perform this summer?
A
To perform this particular summary?
Q
All of the summaries.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 123 of 177 PageID
5049
124
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
A
A couple of months. But I'm working another job that I
work 50 hours a week.
Q
Okay. So this is like a side job, then?
A
Yes.
Q
And so, for this document, did you have the statements
starting in January, 2020?
A
Yes.
Q
All right. So this is just an example you chose to make
your summary to start at 3/13/2020.
A
Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: Could I publish, Your Honor? Thank
you.
BY MR. DICKERSON:
Q
And this is the account that the $942.90 was deposited
in; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Do you recall the date?
A
I believe it was August 20th, I want to say.
August 20th, yes. On Page 5.
Q
If you need to, please do, but is there anywhere else in
your summaries where there's any other deposit by Mr. Casey
Crowther of employee checks other than this one for $942.90?
A
Not that I'm aware of. There were a few -- if you'll
notice, like in March, there were a few deposits that just say,
"Mobile Deposit," and the deposit item was not available from
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 124 of 177 PageID
5050
125
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
the bank.
Q
And that was in March of 2020?
A
Yes. On the first page.
Q
3/25, there's two of them?
A
Yes.
Q
So you can't say, at all, what those deposits are for.
A
No. Because the bank didn't provide the deposit item.
Q
Okay. And then I'm going to go to Exhibit 165. And
this is the exhibit that you were asked as far as the sum;
correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Now, I want to go down to utilities, payroll, and rent,
payment to WBS, payment for monthly rent. Did you select the
utilities, payroll, and rent categories for this calculation?
A
I did.
Q
You did?
A
Yes.
Q
And so that 238,650 is the sum of those expenses?
A
Correct.
Q
And is there any reason why you didn't pick rent for
equipment?
A
Rent for equipment?
Q
Yes.
A
I wasn't aware of any rent for equipment. And I'm not
sure that the rent for equipment is covered under PP. PPP.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 125 of 177 PageID
5051
126
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
Well, I guess that's my issue. Those topic areas right
there, you're including that because your belief that they're
covered by PPP? Is that why that's on that summary?
A
Yes. Because I believe that that's what's covered,
that's what the PPP money was authorized to be used for.
MR. DICKERSON: Give me one second, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Sure.
(Mr. Dickerson and Ms. Waid confer privately.)
MR. DICKERSON: May we have a sidebar, Your Honor?
THE COURT: We can try.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you.
AT SIDEBAR
THE COURT: All right. Can the defense hear me?
MR. DICKERSON: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. REICHLING: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: How about the prosecutor? Good now? All
right. Mr. Dickerson?
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, the witness is a summary
witness. She is just supposed to be taking summarized
information from an admitted document. A voluminous document.
What she just stated there is that she is performing
an analysis and her opinion as to what is an allowable expense
under the Paycheck Protection Program. That goes beyond a
summary witness in every form and fashion, because they're not
supposed to be doing an analysis, they're supposed to be taking
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 126 of 177 PageID
5052
127
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
data, and doing summaries, and calculating sums. But she's
giving opinions on what is or is not an allowable expense.
THE COURT: Can the attorneys hear me? All right. I
understand your point, but she responded to the question you
asked, so my thought is don't ask that kind of question again.
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, it doesn't matter what
question I ask. The information she has on there is analysis.
It's not a summary.
THE COURT: No, that's not true. I don't believe so.
You can ask her, but that's the . . . figures that she's drawn
for those categories. Now, why she chose those categories, as
she pointed out, may relate to --
(The sidebar system malfunctioned.)
THE COURT: All right. I guess my point,
Mr. Dickerson, you asked a question and got the answer. And to
your point that it shouldn't be on the chart, it's properly on
the chart. Presumably, the numbers are right. And you
certainly can ask where she gets the numbers and, if you want,
you know, why she chose those numbers or those categories as
opposed to others.
MR. DICKERSON: And then I'm going to be eliciting
opinion testimony.
THE COURT: You may not want do that, but that's your
call.
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 127 of 177 PageID
5053
128
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
IN OPEN COURT
THE COURT REPORTER: We can't do this. I'm sorry.
I'm getting feedback.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dickerson, you may
proceed. Your last motion, which I did hear despite the
feedback from the mikes, will be denied.
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. DICKERSON:
Q
Ma'am, you were making the determination to select
utilities, payroll, and rent. Correct?
A
Correct.
Q
You were not just writing down and creating a summary.
You were actually making a determination as to what to include
on Exhibit 165.
A
I was trying to give Mr. Crowther the benefit of certain
expenses that could be reimbursed by the PPP funds.
Q
And so did you actually analyze all of the expenses that
could be utilized in PPP funds?
A
I looked at the expenses during that timeframe for those
ten days.
Q
Are there any supplier costs included in your analysis?
A
No. Because I didn't believe those were covered under
the PPP reimbursement.
Q
And have you read the interim rule from February 25th,
2021?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 128 of 177 PageID
5054
129
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
A
There's many, many rules, so I can't say I've read them
all, no.
Q
I'm just specifically asking -- that was a month ago.
Did you read the interim rule from February 25th, 2021?
A
No.
Q
So you're unaware that, if you are going to do an
analysis on allowable -- reimbursable PPP expenses, that
supplier cost are included?
A
I'm not aware of what was -- what was included as of
February 5th.
Q
Have you read and reviewed every interim rule regarding
application of forgiveness?
A
No. Not every one, no.
Q
Did you include any covered worker protection in your
analysis?
A
I mean, what I included was right there.
Q
All right. So you didn't include it.
A
It's not on there. If there was one, then I guess I
didn't list it because it's not on that sheet.
Q
So you don't know whether that is --
A
I don't know if there was an expense of that date, and I
don't know whether it's -- I don't know that it's reimbursable
by PPP funds.
Q
Because you haven't read the February 5th, 2021 IFR.
A
No. February 5th of 2021?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 129 of 177 PageID
5055
130
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
Q
Yes.
A
No.
Q
What about group healthcare? Did you include that with
win your summary?
A
No. It's not on there. I just included those items.
Q
And group healthcare is a forgivable expense; correct?
A
I'm not here to be an expert on the PPP forgiveness.
Q
All right. So then we go back to the numbers you did
select. Those aren't necessarily accurate as to what is
permissible, allowable, forgivable; that's just what you
thought you should include in that summary.
A
At that time, yes.
Q
Okay. And, doing a summary analysis just based upon the
bank records, you're unaware if any expenses have been paid
with cash; correct?
A
I wouldn't have any knowledge of any cash payments. I
haven't reviewed anything -- I've only reviewed bank
statements, so I don't know of any cash payments.
Q
Kindly answer the question, but answering the question
directly. You're unaware, then, since you just did a bank
statement analysis -- I mean summary, of whether any cash was
used to pay any expenses.
A
That's correct. I'm unaware of that.
Q
Showing Exhibit 161. This is your analysis as to the
Target Roofing and Sheet Metal operating account; correct?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 130 of 177 PageID
5056
131
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
A
Correct.
Q
And this is where you're stating that the operating
account was making payments to Chase credit card; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And you noted that the 0417. I believe, from your
testimony, you thought that stuck out because it seemed like a
lot for that month; correct?
A
I didn't say anything stuck out. I just am making the
summary of the payments to Chase credit cards.
Q
And that summary was 125,145 on 4/17.
A
Yes.
Q
But you agree would with me, when you look at
February's, if you were to do a sum of February's payments
starting 2/3 to 2/28, significant payments are being made to
that credit card payment through this operating account;
correct?
A
Correct. Yes.
Q
Same in January; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
So, if you actually look at the entire picture, there's
significant amount of sums being paid each month in January,
February, and March; correct?
A
Correct.
Q
Going back to your 165, is there any specific reason why
you only selected the balance of Target operating account 1791,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 131 of 177 PageID
5057
132
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
the balance of the Crowther personal account 1439, the balance
in the Jade account 8841, and the balance in the Laredo account
8115?
A
Those were the accounts that had balances at Sanibel
Captiva Bank.
Q
So you were not provided with the bank statements from
FineMark account? FineMark Bank?
A
I was. But this was just about -- this was just a
picture of the balances at Sanibel Captiva Bank.
Q
Oh. So it's not actually a summary picture of all the
accounts available on 4/24/20.
A
No.
Q
So it excludes the FineMark account 4732.
A
Well, the reason for that was because the reason for
this particular spreadsheet was to show the financial picture
at Sanibel Captiva Bank, because that's where the funds were --
for the boat were wired out of. They were wired out of Sanibel
Captiva Bank, so someone at Sanibel Captiva Bank could not know
what the financial picture was at FineMark Bank or Bank of
America.
Q
All right. So that helps, because there's no title on
this Document 165 that says this is just limited to Sanibel
Captiva Bank. Correct?
A
No, there's no title on this.
Q
So there are other bank accounts that would show, with
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 132 of 177 PageID
5058
133
DIANE KNOTT - CROSS/DICKERSON
regard to those balances on that day, a different number, a
different sum than your $403,727; correct?
A
Correct, yes. This wasn't -- this wasn't meant to be a
picture of Casey Crowther's entire financial picture.
Q
That makes a lot more sense. And this also isn't
including cash either; correct?
A
No, there's no cash on this statement. Or summary
chart.
Q
So, if there is cash, that number would be different as
far as the financial picture; correct?
A
If we were looking at his entire financial picture, it
would be a different -- completely different chart.
Q
And were you provided from the government any
information with regard to Casey Crowther having cash, a
significant amount of cash, from March, 2020?
A
No.
Q
Because it was just limited, this summary, to bank
statement only.
A
Correct.
MR. DICKERSON: One second, Your Honor?
(Mr. Dickerson and Ms. Waid confer privately.)
MR. DICKERSON: Thank you very much, ma'am.
THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
THE COURT: Any redirect from the government?
MR. REICHLING: Very briefly, Judge.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 133 of 177 PageID
5059
134
DIANE KNOTT - REDIRECT/REICHLING
THE COURT: You may.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. REICHLING:
Q
Miss Knott, I'm not even going to project anything on
the screen, because I don't think it's necessary. If you'd go
to Government's Exhibit 165 in front of you, the paper exhibit?
A
Yes.
Q
Let me ask you, defense counsel asked about these
FineMark accounts; right? These FineMark accounts? These were
accounts for Margaret Crowther, correct?
A
Correct.
Q
And they are also business accounts. I think one was
for a rodeo?
A
That's correct.
Q
And some other Crowther horsing related business?
A
Correct.
Q
Was any of that money transferred over to these Target
Roofing accounts to wire Sara Bay Marina?
A
No.
Q
And counsel -- defense counsel asked about this
February 2021, interim rule. These records are from April,
2020; right?
A
Yes.
Q
And you talked about giving the defendant the benefit
here. What is his real account balance in the account 1791 on
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 134 of 177 PageID
5060
135
4/24, when the wire from his PPP account was sent to Sara Bay
Marina to buy a $689,417 boat?
A
The actual balance in that account was $1,311,768.
MR. REICHLING: No further questions.
THE COURT: Any recross?
MR. DICKERSON: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may stand down. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
(The witness left the witness stand.)
THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, may we have a moment to
confer?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. LEEMAN: May we speak with the Courtroom Deputy
to check the exhibit list to make sure the appropriate exhibits
are in?
THE COURT: You may.
(Counsel for the government confer with the Courtroom
Deputy privately.)
MR. DICKERSON: I want to get my phone back.
COURTROOM DEPUTY: No, you can't have it back.
THE COURT: We'll mark it as an exhibit.
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, I'd ask if the Court would
consider taking judicial notice of the matter we discussed
moments before?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 135 of 177 PageID
5061
136
THE COURT: I'll deal with that momentarily.
MR. LEEMAN: Well, Your Honor, we have no further
witnesses to call, so . . . . Yes, sir. I would just like to
have a ruling on the evidence before I ask to rest, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I understand.
Ladies and gentlemen, there's a matter that the
lawyers and I have to talk about, and it's pretty clear it's
going to be just easer to excuse you rather than try to use the
system here. I'll say 15 minutes, but I don't know.
Again, please do not allow anyone to discuss the case
among yourselves, or allow anyone to discuss it with you or in
your presence. We'll get you back here just as soon as we can.
(At 1:52 p.m., the jury was escorted from the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
All right. First of all, with regard to the judicial
notice, let's see if this is going to be simple.
Is there any objection from the defense?
MR. DICKERSON: No. No objection that he was
arrested on September 2nd. If that's what the judicial is he's
asking for.
THE COURT: I think the judicial notice was that he
was . . . let me have the government state how you want me to
say it.
MR. LEEMAN: Frankly, for the record, Your Honor, I'd
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 136 of 177 PageID
5062
137
rather it not be said he was arrested, which might be viewed as
a little more inflammatory. We'd just ask that he had his
initial appearance, and was informed of the charge, on
September 2nd.
THE COURT: September 2nd of 2020?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And, of course, the charges were --
MR. LEEMAN: At that time, it was a complaint,
Your Honor, and it was bank fraud. No. I'm sorry.
MR. REICHLING: My apologies.
MR. LEEMAN: It was a false statement to a financial
institution. But it involved the same conduct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: So you want me to tell them that, on
September 20th of 2020, the defendant had his initial court
appearance on a complaint charging . . . false statement to a
bank?
MR. LEEMAN: False statement to a financial
institution in connection with his obtaining the PPP loan. And
the date was September 2nd, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dickerson?
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, I think, if the
government is going to be asking for this, we should be
accurate. And it should be accurate that he was arrested, and
had his first appearance, whatever they want as far as the
court appearance. But it's not like he just walked down and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 137 of 177 PageID
5063
138
DEFENSE MOTION FOR JUDGMENT OF ACQUITTAL
agreed to go to the court.
THE COURT: If you want the arrest part in, I'll put
it. I wouldn't otherwise, but if you want it.
MR. DICKERSON: Yes.
THE COURT: So be it. So you want me to say he was
arrested, and had his initial appearance, etcetera.
MR. DICKERSON: Correct. But . . . but I don't know
why we have to go into the charge, because then the question is
going to be is that charge a different charge than this case,
and I think, we go into that, there's going to be questions in
the jurors' minds that shouldn't be there, and it would be
prejudicial.
THE COURT: How about if I say something like on
September 20th, 2020, the defendant was arrested and had his
initial appearance in this case.
MR. DICKERSON: That would be great.
THE COURT: Does that work for the government?
MR. LEEMAN: Acceptable, Your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. I'll do that once we get the
jury back, and then I'll call upon the government to rest.
Let's assume for the moment that the government has
rested. Any motions from the defendant?
MS. WAID: Yes, Your Honor. We move for -- motion
for judgment of acquittal pursuant to Rule 29A. And,
Your Honor, we actually have a written motion. We're also more
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 138 of 177 PageID
5064
139
DEFENSE MOTION FOR JUDGMENT OF ACQUITTAL
than happy to argue it orally, as well. We have a 22-page
written motion.
THE COURT: Well, we're going to do it this way.
You're going to proceed with your testimony. I'll be happy to
read the motion, or read the memo, and take it under
advisement; but I'm not going to read 22 pages on the jury's
time.
MS. WAID: Right. Of course, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We can do that. If you
haven't filed it, go ahead and do that, and I'll basically take
the motion under advisement. At least until I've had a chance
to read it.
MS. WAID: Okay, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And then, if I grant it, obviously, we're
done.
MS. WAID: Right.
THE COURT: And let me just check with the
government. May I presume the government, whatever is stated
in the motion, opposes it?
MR. REICHLING: Of course, Your Honor; yes.
THE COURT: All right.
Do you have a copy ready for me?
MS. WAID: Your Honor, I do. I just need to --
there's a typo on Page 8, but I'm just gonna -- when I file it,
I will fix the typos; but I will give them to the Court and to
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 139 of 177 PageID
5065
140
DISCUSSION RE FORFEITURE
the government now, so everybody has a copy.
THE COURT: Okay.
So the government will rest. Does the defense
anticipate calling any witnesses?
MS. WAID: Your Honor, can we just briefly speak with
the client?
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. WAID: Thank you.
(Counsel for the defendant confer with the defendant
privately.)
MS. WAID: Your Honor, the defense is not going to
present any witness testimony.
THE COURT: All right.
Are you folks ready for a charge conference?
MR. LEEMAN: I do believe we are, Your Honor. We've
had a chance to look at the jury instructions, the verdict
form, and I've made some notes. I think I have a grasp on the
Court's issue with the proposed jury instruction that we
submitted originally.
THE COURT: Before we get into -- well, I am sorry.
Let me hear from the defense. Are you all set?
MS. WAID: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. And what is the pleasure with
regard to the forfeiture? I assume the house is moot because
of the other case and the plea, so we have the . . . boat, I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 140 of 177 PageID
5066
141
DISCUSSION RE SCHEDULING
guess?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor. I don't think a jury
determination is due on the guilty plea as it relates to the
house. My understanding, though I haven't spoken with her in a
couple days about it, is that they won't be requesting a jury
determination on the boat upon a guilty verdict. If it's not
guilty, obviously, it really doesn't matter. So I'll let her
speak. But we're prepared to move forward either way.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. WAID: That's correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Which part of it? That, if there's a
guilty verdict, the forfeiture will be decided by the Court?
MS. WAID: Yes, Your Honor. If there is a guilty
verdict, we would prefer that it be decided by the Court and
not go to the jury.
THE COURT: Okay. Now, with regard to the jury
instructions, how about if -- let me have The Court Security
Officer tell the jurors we're going to be more than 15minutes,
just so that they don't get antsy, but I guess, as I see how
this plays out, I'll do the charge conference, closing
arguments, and jury instruction, I think, all yet this
afternoon. Unless you plan on taking a real long time with
closings.
MR. LEEMAN: I would tell the Court our preference
would be to close in the morning.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 141 of 177 PageID
5067
142
DISCUSSION RE SCHEDULING
THE COURT: Really.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor. I think, first, we
have the Rule 29 issue to respond to. It sounds like that will
be filed. We would be able to get our response ready for that,
give it to the Court, and then close in the morning. Of
course, you know, we're at the mercy of the Court; but that
would be our preference.
THE COURT: I like the way you phrase it, at the
mercy of the Court. We'll see how merciful we get.
What says the defense in terms of the scheduling?
MS. WAID: Your Honor, we can close today, if that's
what the Court prefers. We'll leave it to the discretion of
the Court.
THE COURT: Well, my guess is, if we close today, the
jury is going to be coming back tomorrow in any event. If we
do this starting at 9:00 o'clock, how long do you anticipate
for closing.
MR. LEEMAN: I wouldn't anticipate much more than
30 minutes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And for the defense?
MR. LEEMAN: Without rebuttal.
MR. DICKERSON: 30 to 45 minutes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: So we're talking, at most, two hours for
both sides, maybe 30 minutes for jury instructions. That
actually would work. I think.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 142 of 177 PageID
5068
143
GOVERNMENT RESTS
Well, if we're's going to do that, we might as well
send the jury home. I might, we'll call them back so you can
rest, and I'll give them the judicial notice part. But we can
send them home, if that's the way we're going to do it.
MR. DICKERSON: Acceptable.
THE COURT: All right. Let's see if we can get the
jury back up. I don't think they're out there, so you can be
seated. Unless you'd like to stand.
All set? All right. Have the jury step in, please.
(At 2:05 p.m., the jury was escorted into the
courtroom.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Ladies and gentlemen, the Court has taken judicial
notice of a fact, and all that means is that what I'm about to
tell you you can assume to be correct, and neither side needs
to present any additional evidence to establish this fact.
The Court will take judicial notice that, on
September the 2nd of 2020, Mr. Crowther was arrested and had
his initial appearance in court in this case.
The government may proceed.
MR. REICHLING: At this time, Your Honor the United
States of America rests.
THE COURT: All right.
Counsel, anything from the defense?
MS. WAID: Nothing from the defense, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 143 of 177 PageID
5069
144
JURY INSTRUCTED AND RELEASED FOR THE DAY
THE COURT: Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, both sides have rested their
case now, and we've discussed the next step in the procedure.
And what I'm going do is send you home, because we have some
things that the lawyers and I need to do before closing
arguments.
We're going to have you come back in the morning,
we'll have closing arguments, the jury instructions, and then
you'll begin your deliberations. Between now and then, it's no
secret what we're going to be doing. We'll be going over the
charge, the instructions that I'm going to give you in the
morning so both sides will know what it is I'm going to tell
you the law is before they make their closing arguments to you.
The alternative was to make you wait while we do that, and then
do it, and we kind of run into too close to 5:00 o'clock.
Bottom line, I'm going to send you home early, have
you come back fresh at 9:00 o'clock, and then we'll finish up
tomorrow, or however long it takes.
What it means, again, is you cannot discuss the case
among yourselves, or allow anyone to discuss it with you or in
your presence. You can't do any independent researching, or
any media searches, or watch news, or read newspapers, or any
kind of media, with regard to this case. You still have the
best seat in the house. See you in the morning, 9:00 o'clock.
(At 2:08 p.m., the jury was escorted from the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 144 of 177 PageID
5070
145
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
courtroom.)
THE COURT: All right. Be seated, please.
All right. The way I usually do this is the Court
has given you -- my law clerk has given you, this morning, the
Court's draft jury instructions. I'll just go through page by
page, and take any comments or objections as we go. At least
the beginning part of this is mostly Eleventh Circuit pattern.
And the end turns out to be the Eleventh Circuit pattern.
Page 1, it's actually unnumbered, but the first page,
any objections or comments there?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Page 2. And this is the version of the
Eleventh Circuit pattern that references the defendant's not
testifying.
And, Mr. Crowther, I gather from what's happened that
it is your decision not to testify in the case; is that
correct?
THE DEFENDANT: That is correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Any objections or comments
with regard to Page 2 of the proposed instructions from the
attorneys?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Page 3, burden of proof, reasonable
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 145 of 177 PageID
5071
146
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
doubt, any objections or comments there?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Page 4, talking about evidence, direct
and circumstantial, that goes over to Page 5., any objections
or comments there?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Page 6 is the credibility instruction.
Any comments or objections there?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Page 7, again, relates to credibility. I
was thinking about this one. I guess my thought is to keep it
in there based upon Mr. . . . I think his name was DeCicco?
MS. WAID: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Any thoughts or objections to this
instruction?
MR. LEEMAN: The government doesn't have an objection
to the instruction, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No objection from the defense.
THE COURT: All right. Number 8, actually, I'm not
sure we need anymore. This was the expert, and I don't think
we had an expert. Unless someone --
MR. LEEMAN: The government objects to it,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 146 of 177 PageID
5072
147
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
Your Honor.
MS. WAID: We don't need it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Strike that.
Number 9 is a note-taking instruction. Any
objections or comments there?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: What Page are we on? I'm sorry,
Your Honor. Mine didn't have an expert in ours.
THE COURT: Oh, yours didn't have a Page 8?
MS. WAID: Okay. No. Sorry. I got ahead.
THE COURT: I'm at Page 9.
MS. WAID: Okay. Thank you. I don't have any
problem with Page 9.
THE COURT: All right. In beginning of Page 10, we
start getting the instructions. Any objections or comments
with regard to Page 10?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: None to 10, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Page 11, 12, 13, 14, to the top of 15,
all relate to Count 1. You can do that either by page, or in
total, whatever your preference is.
Let's start with Page 11, I guess. Any objections or
comments?
MR. LEEMAN: Not to Page 11, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: None to Page 11, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 147 of 177 PageID
5073
148
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
THE COURT: All right. Let's look at Page 12 then.
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, I guess we -- we do have a
comment. I don't think it's an objection because there's not
really any of the material that the government finds
objectionable. We would have a suggestion as to the order of
some things. There are definitional sections, I guess. The
first one is a scheme to defraud. And then there's and intent
to defraud, and then the Court has moved -- goes through those
definitions, indicates that the parties have stipulated to
financial institution, and then it moves on to the second
alternative method.
The government's suggestion, Your Honor, would be to
move all the definitions until after the alternatives are
stated. It thinks that might be a little simpler to read. It
would also, I think, more importantly, there are definitions
that are listed after the second alternative, and vice versa,
that relate to the other count.
For instance, the definition of the word "false or
fraudulent," which occurs after the second alternative method,
is actually relevant to the first alternative because, in a
scheme to defraud, the word "false" is used.
And the same applies to the word "material."
Material is defined after the second alternative, but material
is also, obviously, a fact needed to prove a scheme to defraud.
So I don't think anything is lost by moving all of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 148 of 177 PageID
5074
149
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
the definitions to after the two alternatives are stated, and
that would be our first suggestion, Your Honor.
And I think, for the same reason, we could just have
a single reference to Sanibel Captiva Bank being an insured
financial institution.
THE COURT: So essentially start out with the
elements for both alternatives, and then get into the
definitions?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. I think, as I recall, that's
the way the pattern is.
MR. LEEMAN: It is, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Any thoughts?
MS. WAID: Yeah. We were going to suggest,
Your Honor, that . . . . That the intent to -- that just the
intent to defraud, Part B, defined again after the second
alternative because it is not in there, and it . . . so we have
two sets of definitions was what we were going to suggest one
way to write it, but including intent to defraud after the
second.
THE COURT: So putting it after both basically does
what you want?
MS. WAID: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. I'm not opposed to
moving all those definitions until after the elements and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 149 of 177 PageID
5075
150
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
deleting the one that would be redundant. So I would take, on
Page 12, the definition of scheme to defraud, intent to
defraud, the last paragraph about the government does not need
to, and then the stipulation, and literally move that until
after the three elements. And I think I'd move it in front of
what is now the paragraph that says, "Statement or
representation is false," etcetera.
MS. WAID: Yes. We'd agree with moving it into the
front, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And then, on Page 14, I would delete
where I say, again, "The parties have stipulated," because we
will have moved the other paragraph there, so I will have said
that once.
Is there anything else that's redundant, or the order
needs to get rearranged?
MR. LEEMAN: Your Honor, the government would
suggest -- sort of following that definitional section, we have
a section that talks about the statute specifying multiple
alternative ways in which an offense may be committed. It's
sort of the standard conjunction language that I think is
usually in the jury instructions.
I was wondering if the Court might consider moving
that, because the Court has added this sort of language to the
jury instruction earlier which talks about alternative methods
of proving bank fraud, and we wondered if it might make sense
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 150 of 177 PageID
5076
151
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
to move what begins on Page 14, sort of earlier into the
instruction, where the Court is discussing that bank fraud may
be committed in alternative ways.
THE COURT: Well, I wasn't really sure where I was
going to put that, so that's . . . it kind of got stuck in the
end. So I'm not necessarily opposed, but where is that you
think it might more properly belong?
MR. LEEMAN: So if we take the paragraph beginning,
"Where a statute specifies," and we place it immediately before
the sentence that begins, "As to the first alternative method."
THE COURT: All right. Let me take a look.
MS. WAID: That makes sense to us. We have no
objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I like that. Not that it matters much,
but.
MR. LEEMAN: It matters to me, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And when I say I like it, I mean I'll do
it.
MR. LEEMAN: Okay.
THE COURT: All right. What's next?
MR. LEEMAN: The only other suggestion the government
has for this instruction is at the paragraph we were just
talking about, which sounds like it will be moved earlier in
the instruction.
There is some worry the government has about
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 151 of 177 PageID
5077
152
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
alternatives being sort of viewed as one or the other, and not
potentially both. We would like a sentence -- and I think most
logically is at the end of that paragraph -- you may find the
defendant not guilty of both alternatives, guilty of both
alternatives, or guilty of one of the alternatives and not the
other.
I just do worry the use of the word will
"alternative" suggesting that they're mutually exclusive,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: I understand the concern. I'm not as
enthused about the verbiage as I was about moving the
paragraph, I guess.
MS. WAID: Your Honor, I think the verdict form
covers that.
THE COURT: Well, you know, I was reading the
sentence that says the verdict form given to you will address
both alternative methods, and then the verdict form . . . . I
guess, when I'm explaining the verdict form, I can verbally
tell them it's alternative one, alternative two, or both. Or
neither.
MS. WAID: We'd say neither first.
MR. LEEMAN: We can put neither first, Your Honor.
That's not an issue with the government.
THE COURT: I've got the not guilty first as it is,
so.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 152 of 177 PageID
5078
153
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
MR. LEEMAN: I saw that.
THE COURT: But if I do that, does that take care of
your concern, or do you still want something?
MR. LEEMAN: I think it does, Your Honor. We just
don't want anyone operating under the assumption that they have
to pick one or the other. So something just sort of clearly
stating that, if neither alternative applies, he's not guilty
of both; if both apply, he's guilty of both.
THE COURT: All right. I think, obviously, that's a
correct statement of the law, and I'll do it with the verdict
explanation.
Anything else with regard to the Count 1 charge?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No, Your Honor. Well, just a technical on
Page 13. It's your second paragraph. It says Sanibel Captive
Community Bank, instead of Captiva.
THE COURT: Captive Community Bank? Yeah. Thank
you. All right. Let's go to Count 2, then, on Page 15, over
to 16. Any objections or comments with regard to that?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: Not from the defense, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Page 17 and 18 and 19 relate
to the illegal money -- monetary transaction. Any objections
or comments there?
MR. LEEMAN: We have one comment, Your Honor. I did
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 153 of 177 PageID
5079
154
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
not see an indication that the parties had stipulated that the
transfers had affected interstate commerce.
THE COURT: I did not put that in. You're right.
MR. LEEMAN: I think, logically, Your Honor, if the
Court is inclined to put it in, it could go on Page 18, "As you
know, the parties have stipulated that Sanibel," it says
"Captive" again, I hadn't seen that, "was a financial
institution at all material times." And then, perhaps,
language that says . . . .
THE COURT: "The parties have also stipulated"?
MR. LEEMAN: "The parties have also stipulated that
the transfers at issue in Counts 3 and 4 affected interstate or
foreign commerce."
MS. WAID: No objection to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. I'll add that there.
Okay. Anything else as to Pages 17, 18, or 19?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I don't know who said the no.
MR. LEEMAN: I did, Your Honor.
MS. WAID: None, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Page 20 is the aiding and
abetting that I was suggesting before. Not all of it seems to
apply. Maybe none of it. I don't know.
MR. LEEMAN: I agree, Your Honor, that all of it
doesn't apply. My understanding of the aiding and abetting
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 154 of 177 PageID
5080
155
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
statute is it does hold an aider and abettor liable as a
principal, but it also allowed a person who directs the actions
of others which may further the scheme to be held liable for
that scheme. Sort of the agency theory.
So what the government suggests, Your Honor, is
deleting all of the language beginning with, "A defendant aids
and abets a person if the defendant," down through the end of
the page. The only instruction would relate to the agency
portion of 18 United States Code 2, which says it's possible to
prove the defendant guilty of a crime even without evidence
that the defendant personally performed every act charged.
I think that -- I think this is an appropriate
instruction in this case because some of the evidence which has
been elicited and mentioned in the opening statement about the
possibility that Mr. Crowther's signatures were added to
documents by others within his company, and that they were all
working together to get this loan.
THE COURT: I would also propose to leave the first
two paragraphs as is, and delete the rest of the paragraphs on
that page, which I think is what Mr. Leeman just said I should
do.
What says the defense?
MS. WAID: So you just want to keep the first two
paragraphs. Is that my understanding?
THE COURT: I am. I think that goes to the cause
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 155 of 177 PageID
5081
156
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
portion. For example, he doesn't have to do the wire fraud,
the bank can do it; but if he caused them to do it, he has
liability.
MS. WAID: That's fine.
THE COURT: Number 21 is a good-faith instruction. I
believe this came from the defense. Any objections or comments
to that?
MS. WAID: Not from us, Your Honor.
MR. LEEMAN: Just thinking about something for
a minute, Your Honor, if I might.
THE COURT: You may.
MR. LEEMAN: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Page 22, again I believe this is from the
defense, on Interim Final Rules. Any objection or comments?
MR. LEEMAN: The government doesn't object,
Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No objection from the defense.
THE COURT: Page 23, we get back into the
Eleventh Circuit patterns, on or about, knowingly, separate
counts, etcetera. Any objection or comments to 23?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor, not from the government.
MS. WAID: No, Your Honor, not from the defense.
THE COURT: Twenty-four. Again, I believe most of
this is Eleventh Circuit pattern. Any objection or comments?
MR. LEEMAN: Not from the government, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 156 of 177 PageID
5082
157
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
MS. WAID: None from the defense, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Twenty-five is yet another caution about
electronic media and whatnot. Any objection or comments from
25 to 26?
MR. LEEMAN: No objection from the government,
Your Honor.
MS. WAID: No objection from the defense, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And, finally, Page 27 talked about an
explanation of the verdict, etcetera. Any objections or
comments there?
MS. WAID: None, Your Honor.
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor; not from the government.
THE COURT: All right.
Now that the testimony is over, is there any
instruction that I haven't given that anyone thinks I should?
MS. WAID: Your Honor, we had requested an ambiguity
instruction pursuant to Harra in our original submission.
THE COURT: Yeah. I remember that. I remember
rejecting it.
MS. WAID: I noticed that.
THE COURT: But tell me again, or tell me why, and
where you think it's appropriate.
MS. WAID: So we would argue it's appropriate because
the regulations are so ambiguous. Even to the statute. They
completely contradict the statute. So you have the CARES Act,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 157 of 177 PageID
5083
158
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
and then the Interim Final Rules, which are actually supposed
to interpret the CARES Act, and they, in fact, conflict with
each other.
Even the Interim Final Rule admits, in its
February 5th, 2021, publication, that the rules are
conflicting; and they still haven't figured out what the rules,
in fact, should be, and they're trying to fix
misinterpretations in guidance.
There's people . . . . We believe that it should be
in there -- the ambiguity instruction should be in there
because it's any reasonable interpretation; and the
government's own witnesses interpreted it almost the same way
that Mr. Crowther did --
THE COURT: Well, tell me where in the instructions.
I mean, all that may be true, but the bank fraud statute isn't
ambiguous, and the 1014 offense isn't ambiguous. So where do
you put that in connection with the charged offenses?
MS. WAID: Well, I believe, because the PPP program,
Paycheck Protection Program, was named so many times within the
indictment the two actually go hand in hand. You can't have a
bank fraud, there wouldn't have been a submission, unless it
was through the PPP program. So it's those regulations that
everybody was following, including the bank itself, in order to
figure out how the program was going to be administered and how
the loan proceeds could be administered. So I don't think you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 158 of 177 PageID
5084
159
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
can separate the two.
THE COURT: Well, isn't that covered by your
good-faith instruction that I'm actually giving?
MS. WAID: I don't think it is actually covered by a
good-faith instruction because I think that, where the law is
so obviously conflicting, like it was in Harra, that our
argument is such that the government would need to prove that,
beyond a reasonable doubt, any reasonable interpretation --
and, as we saw before the Court, there were many reasonable
interpretations of this statute. I completely disagree with
the government's interpretation of the CARES Act.
THE COURT: Well, is there any evidence of any
reasonable interpretation that would authorize the purchase of
an in excess of half a million dollar boat?
MS. WAID: Yes, there is.
THE COURT: What is that?
MS. WAID: The sum of the loan proceeds needed to be
used for forgivable expenses, and that's exactly what happened.
I mean, that's what the law states, the sum of the loan
proceeds need to be used on -- in order to be forgiven, the sum
of the loan proceeds need to be used on forgivable expenses.
And forgiveness -- we haven't even applied for forgiveness
here, Your Honor; so it's just a loan, and that's it.
And I think what's happening -- it's hard to argue
when I'm sitting down. I think what's happening is there is a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 159 of 177 PageID
5085
160
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
distinct confusion, which is exactly why I would like an
ambiguity, because there's a -- the government keeps confusing
kind of the CARES Act disclosures in those loan documents which
don't come into play until forgiveness has in fact been applied
for, and Target has never applied for forgiveness.
So, really, it's the loan documents that we should be
looking at, and nowhere within those loan documents is it
discussing anything regarding what . . . what may, or if, or
need, the loan documents conflict themselves. Half the time
they say you may use these, half the time they say you will use
these. That's exactly what the statute says.
The CARES Act says you may use these, the Interim
Final Rule says you will use these. It's completely
conflicting. And we actually argue this is Rule 29, so it
might shed a little light for the Judge as well; but, in our
determination, there is so much ambiguity in those regulations,
or even -- I think it actually is violating Mr. Crowther's due
process rights.
Furthermore, the government is requiring additional
regulations. So the government's theory is that those funds
are specifically earmarked proceeds; but there's no regulation
that states that. And John Miller, who is the SBA witness,
stated there is no regulation that says they can't be
commingled; there is no regulation that says anything about
bank accounts; there is no regulation that says that this is --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 160 of 177 PageID
5086
161
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
these are specifically earmarked proceeds.
So the government's theory is I give you ten dollars,
and -- you know, and someone else gives another ten dollars,
you put this ten dollars in your right pocket, you put this
other ten dollars in your left pocket, you go down to the
store, the government is saying you must use this money out of
your right pocket, and not out of your left. But money is
fungible, and nowhere in the regulations, and nowhere in the
CARES Act does it say otherwise. There is just no regulation.
They rushed it through, and they might not even like
that, but you can't make more stringent requirements on a
person. They think the intent of the law is this. It's so
ambiguous, conflicting with unto itself, from the statute to
the regulations, to the loan documents, to the Cares Disclosure
Act, and the testimony of the witnesses as well, all of them,
that I think everyone is thoroughly confused.
You can see exactly where an ambiguity jury
instruction would make the jurors think and have to hold the
government to the standard upon which it should be, that any
reasonable interpretation they have to prove beyond a
reasonable doubt; and that's not an unreasonable interpretation
of the CARES Act. We know that through the testimony of the
witnesses because everybody said the same thing, it's a loan.
THE COURT: I'm not sure . . . if you said it, I'm
not sure I appreciate it. Where do you want that instruction?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 161 of 177 PageID
5087
162
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
MS. WAID: Oh. I'm sorry if I didn't say that. We
would like that instruction -- we had put it right before the
Interim Final Rules instruction that we had. So I assume it
would be Page 22.
THE COURT: Do you want it either before or after?
MS. WAID: I'd prefer it before, but.
THE COURT: Before, okay. So basically after your
good-faith instruction.
MS. WAID: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
What says the government?
MR. LEEMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. I guess, without
getting -- I don't feel confused about the CARES Act or the
evidence in this case, Your Honor, and I don't feel like we've
been confusing the issues. This is a straightforward case of,
when Mr. Crowther applied to a bank, whether he said something
which was false. He promised to use these things in particular
ways, and he did not. The fact that the CARES Act and the IFRs
have changed a number of times is indisputable; but not a
single witness has come up and suggested that any change to any
of those IFRs has ever allowed someone like Mr. Crowther to
purchase a boat in his own name, which he has done. So I think
this focus and repeated pointing to the program as somehow,
itself, is confusing is missing the point.
One very narrow portion of this program never
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 162 of 177 PageID
5088
163
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
changed, not once, and it's what -- it's whether a person can
use funds like this to buy personal property in their own name.
So I think -- if I could point out a few reasons why this
ambiguity instruction actually conflicts with the standard
instructions that are used countless times, over, and over, and
over, in this district.
In the fraud -- bank fraud instructions, Your Honor,
there are a couple of things, and it talks about . . . a . . .
the falsity. It defines what false is. And I'm reading from
the standard instruction. "A statement or representation is
false or fraudulent if it's about a material fact that the
speaker knows is untrue, or makes with reckless indifference as
to the truth, and makes with an intent to defraud. A statement
or representation may be false or fraudulent when it's a half
truth, or effectively conceals a material fact, and is made
with an intent to defraud."
So under a fraud case, Your Honor, the government is
not under a burden to prove that something is absolutely false.
It can be half true under the standard jury instruction.
It's also possible that the statement's made and the
person doesn't even know if it's true or not, it's just made
with reckless indifference; which certainly is a possibility
with Mr. Crowther, considering he's suggested, multiple times,
or at least the arguments flowing from the evidence have
suggested that he hadn't signed these documents. At a minimum,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 163 of 177 PageID
5089
164
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
it appears through there is evidence that he was recklessly
indifferent to what he was stating in these things if he didn't
sign them.
So when we have this definition, which they call an
ambiguity definition, but what it's really doing is changing
the definition of what falls is under the very standard bank
fraud definitions, that is . . . problematic, I think,
Your Honor. It's raising the government's burden. We
certainly have a high burden, it's always our burden; but we're
not required to meet some super burden simply because the
defendants believe we're confused. This instruction -- fraud
instruction is perfectly adequate.
I would say what the defendant is also attempting to
do here, this appears to not only relate to the fraud count,
but any evidence. They -- the way this -- the way the jury
instruction is written, it says to prove that any statement was
false.
Well, there are a lot of statements in this case that
are false, or at least the government believes they were false:
Statements about payroll, statements about equipment,
statements about employees and whether they existed or not.
You know, to the extent this is some overarching definition of
what false is, and then it refers to loan documents, and
interim rules, and things like that, that appears to be: A,
incorrect; B, also confusing to the jury. Why would this be in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 164 of 177 PageID
5090
165
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
a stand alone instruction?
As it relates to the false statement case,
Your Honor, I think the reason -- the reason an instruction
like this, again, doesn't make -- doesn't pass muster, if you
look at the instructions for false statement, a statement or
report -- false is defined again. A statement or report is
false if it's untrue when made. When made, Your Honor.
So these references -- Mr. Dickerson, today, got up
and referenced an IFR that was created in February of 2021,
many, many months after the time that Mr. Crowther bought the
boat. To the extent that they bear on -- it's impossible that
these IFRs bear on the truthfulness of a statement when made.
The question would be what did he mean when he said
it, and what was the law then? And the facts actually show
there wasn't even an IFR until April 15th, the day after
Mr. Crowther got the loan.
So again, Your Honor, I raise these things . . . the
government appreciates the sentiment, it understands the
defendant's argument in this case, but putting this instruction
in I think absolutely risks confusing the jury about multiple
different issues. It changes the pattern instructions in a way
that I don't think are anticipated or correct; and so, for that
reason, we object to it being placed anywhere in the
instructions.
THE COURT: Ms. Waid, how would your proposed
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 165 of 177 PageID
5091
166
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
instruction work? I'm looking at it now, and you want an
instruction saying the government has to prove beyond a
reasonable doubt that the statement was not true under any
reasonable interpretation of the loan documents provided by the
lender and the Interim Final Rules pursuant to the PPP. The
testimony is there's a number of different Interim Final Rules,
most of which, maybe all of which, postdate the application.
So how could they be possibly relevant to whether or not
Mr. Crowther has made a false statement on day one when the
regulations don't come in until day four, five, six, whatever?
MS. WAID: Well, first, Your Honor, I would
actually -- we could include the CARES Act in that, because
that actually predated the IFRs, they're just an interpretation
of the CARES Act. And, second of all, the IFRs actually do
come into play because Mr. Crowther hasn't applied for
forgiveness yet, so he's still following those changes in the
IFRs.
But I did just briefly want to --
THE COURT: Well, wait a second.
MS. WAID: Okay.
THE COURT: I don't understand that at all. The fact
that he hasn't yet applied for forgiveness, and may never, I
mean, I don't know, how does that impact whether he lied on the
application?
MS. WAID: The Court's indulgence.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 166 of 177 PageID
5092
167
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
THE COURT: Mr. Dickerson, I know I have a one
attorney rule, but if you want to -- might be easier if you
just want to argue.
MR. DICKERSON: All right, Your Honor. The SBA time,
Exhibits 6 and 8, specifically say it is applying to SBA loan
proceeds, Your Honor. We have Mr. Miller specifically stating
there are two times in these loans that the SBA loan proceeds
apply. That is when, A, the loan is applied for forgiveness to
the bank, the bank approves, submits it to SBA, and then SBA
approves and then pays out the forgiveness, so it goes back to
the bank. The second time is when there's a default. That's
Mr. Miller's testimony and Mr. DeCicco's testimony agree.
Mr. DeCicco saying these are loan proceeds from the bank, it is
not SBA loan proceeds.
That application, their bullet point on Page 2 of six
and eight, exhibits, say SBA loan proceeds to be used. It does
not say anything about just general bank loan proceeds. If
there were that case, then the bank's own documents, being the
promissory note, which off the top of my head I believe is
Exhibit 9, and either 11 or 14 is the note -- I mean the actual
agreement -- would have the use of proceeds provision in it
just like the line of credit. But it doesn't.
And, in fact, Your Honor, the promissory note,
Exhibit 9, says you may apply for forgiveness if you use the
proceeds for, and it gives those same lists of proceeds that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 167 of 177 PageID
5093
168
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
the government keeps harping on that is limited to an SBA loan
proceed which kicks in when there is a forgiveness or there is
a default.
So, no . . . . The complication that we're having
this discussion alone shows the ambiguity, because the
application specifically says SBA loan proceeds. Mr. Miller
testified there are no SBA loan proceeds in this loan, so did
Kyle DeCicco. So I don't understand why ambiguity wouldn't be
there because the two witnesses said there are no SBA loan
proceeds in these actual loans.
THE COURT: So the applicant can lie without penalty?
MR. DICKERSON: No, it's not the applicant can lie.
The applicant agrees that, if there are SBA loan proceeds in
the loan, that the use of those funds have to be for that
limited purpose. And when you look at the CARES Act,
Your Honor, it says the sum of all expenses under the
forgiveness provision for these items matters.
It does not say, anywhere in the CARES Act, or any of
the IFRs, that the dollar coming out of the SBA loan proceed
application that is then the actual bank approving, and the
bank issuing their own documents, and the bank's own documents,
Your Honor, say you may use the proceeds for those purposes.
So when the bank's own document says you may use the proceeds
for those purposes, that's controlling until there is that
filing of forgiveness.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 168 of 177 PageID
5094
169
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
Now, if Mr. Crowther didn't use any of the bank's
money for any forgivable expense, and then he filed for
forgiveness, and he did not have any sum of forgivable expenses
in that application, then, once the government, SBA, approves
the loan and pays the reimbursement for that loan for expenses
that are not forgivable, or were false, fictitious, then yes,
Your Honor, that's when it comes full circle. But that SBA
document specifically limits itself to SBA loan proceeds, not
the bank.
Mr. Miller even said, no, that's the bank's money.
Even the government, in their indictment, says it's the bank's
money. It's not SBA money.
THE COURT: All right. I'm not inclined to give the
ambiguity instruction as requested in Docket --
Document Number 93. I think it's covered by the definition of
a false statement and the other aspect of the fraud that we set
out. I'll take a look at it again. But that's my -- at least
my initial inclination.
I think I have asked, and I'm not sure I finished, is
there any other instructions that I have not included that you
think should be included? I think, Miss Waid, I'm still with
you.
MS. WAID: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: From the government?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 169 of 177 PageID
5095
170
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
THE COURT: The verdict form. Let's discuss that.
Obviously, it's shorter. Any either objections or comments
from any portion of the verdict form?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor. I believe any concerns
we may have had, I think is going to be remedied by what the
Court explained it would intend do to indicate these things are
either, neither, or both.
THE COURT: Okay.
MS. WAID: We're okay, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I do have one question. This and in the
instructions for the Counts 3 and 4, we're kind of
interchangeably using the terms "illegal monetary transaction"
and "money laundering". Apparently, nobody has an issue with
that; so, if you're comfortable with it, I am too.
MR. LEEMAN: We are, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Miss Waid?
MS. WAID: I'd actually prefer to track the jury
instruction.
THE COURT: Well, the offense, and I believe the jury
instruction, the offense is an illegal monetary transaction.
MS. WAID: Okay.
THE COURT: Everybody calls it money laundering,
but --
MS. WAID: Right. Then we're fine with that,
Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 170 of 177 PageID
5096
171
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
THE COURT: All right. We'll leave that as it is
then.
All right. If you want to hang around, hopefully
we'll get the changes within half an hour or so, and you can
see the Court's version tonight. If not, obviously, it will be
ready in the morning.
Anything else we can do?
MR. REICHLING: I don't believe so, Your Honor.
Thank you.
MS. WAID: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We'll be in recess until --
MR. DICKERSON: Your Honor, we just -- with regard to
closing arguments and the opening arguments from the government
calling our client a liar, we're just asking for the Court not
allow the government to call our client a liar in closing.
There's plenty of case law as far as calling people --
THE COURT: You're concerned with the literal term
"liar," as opposed to accusing him of making false statements.
MR. DICKERSON: Correct. Calling him a liar, "He's a
liar," that's the problem. They can talk they think the case
has false statements, that's different; but calling someone a
liar cannot be done in closing.
THE COURT: Do you see it differently?
MR. LEEMAN: I'm not sure that I agree with that,
Your Honor. I don't have case law off the top of my head. I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 171 of 177 PageID
5097
172
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
don't believe we did call him a liar in opening. I believe we
said he has a lying problem, which I think we've proven. I
would intend do it again. If I've run afoul of some case law
I'm not aware of it, but lying would seem to be making a false
statement. That's exactly what we're doing here. We're trying
to speak to a jury of the community. I don't understand why I
can't use common parlance to describe what Mr. Crowther has
done.
Obviously, if that's inappropriate under the law, I'd
be happy to not do it; but if the Court's asking me on the spot
whether I'd commit to it, I would prefer some time to look into
the case law.
THE COURT: I'd suspect that Mr. Dickerson -- let me
see if he and I are on the same page here -- that there's a
difference between saying a defendant is a liar and saying a
defendant lied.
MR. DICKERSON: If there is a lie, yes. But saying
that they're a liar is completely different. Calling them out
as a liar, yes; but if they're saying he didn't tell the truth
on a document, as represented, that's one thing. But calling
him a liar is the issue.
THE COURT: So they take Exhibit 6, for example, and
point to a portion of it and say the defendant lied here,
that's permissible; but calling the defendant, generally, a
liar, is not?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 172 of 177 PageID
5098
173
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
MR. DICKERSON: Correct.
THE COURT: I think we're on the same page. And I
can't give you case law off the top of my head either, but the
cobwebs of my mind I think you're going to find . . . .
MS. WAID: Your Honor, we can e-mail it. We've got
the case law. I've done it. So I can e-mail to the government
and the Court.
MR. LEEMAN: We'll take a look at it Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. That's fine. Anything else?
MR. DICKERSON: Just one other issue, Your Honor.
With regard to Exhibit 167 for the government, that's the
e-mail from Brad Smith that doesn't have the attachments. We
have all the attachments, so that he can have all the
attachments. And we've made that objection previously, that he
needs to have all the exhibits.
THE COURT: I do remember the objection. So you just
want to attach those to 167?
MR. DICKERSON: Correct.
THE COURT: Any objections?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, Your Honor. We introduced what we
believed was relevant while the case was open. There are any
number -- I don't believe every e-mail is required to contain
everything it ever had. If there's an argument that somehow
what's been submitted is misleading, of course we could be
required to complete that; but that's not what's being made.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 173 of 177 PageID
5099
174
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
That e-mail was introduced for a limited purpose, to
show that an application was made at a particular time. Those
other attachments are substantive, has lots to relate to what I
think the defendant would want to say, but they were not
attached, they're not relevant to the government's case; and,
after the case is closed, we would view it as improper. We
also don't think we're under a duty to have included them in
the first place, but what I said before, the document was what
we purported it to be, which was an e-mail that contained one
of the attachments that was sent at the time.
THE COURT: Refresh my memory as to what the
attachments are.
MR. LEEMAN: The e-mail, Your Honor, was the Target
Roofing submitting to the bank its application -- one of its
applications for the loan. Also attached with it is voluminous
paperwork -- I can't say voluminous off the top of my head,
Your Honor -- paperwork supporting payroll numbers. Payroll
numbers of the bank. And to the extent payroll is a big part
of their defense here, sort of back-dooring this in after the
case is closed, is . . . . We don't believe it's proper.
And so what the government introduced was the e-mail
to prove the time the application was submitted, that
Mr. Crowther was copied on it, that he was aware of it, and
that the application did, in fact, come to the bank as the bank
received it. And that's what's in evidence right now,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 174 of 177 PageID
5100
175
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
Your Honor.
These other things, about payroll, they're not in, I
don't believe there's anything misleading about having left the
payroll numbers out, so we'd object to it being added after the
fact, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Would I be correct that you had the
attachments all along?
MR. LEEMAN: Yes. I would highly assume that we've
had those documents, Your Honor. I can't -- without having our
discovery file in front of us, but yes, we have, generally
speaking, all of the e-mails. And we made decisions to leave
things out because they don't pertain to our case, we don't
want to bury the jury with irrelevant documents that aren't
ours; so they were left out, they were omitted, and it's not
misleading in any way. I haven't heard any argument that it's
misleading. They are just wanting to move in evidence that
helps them.
THE COURT: That's a surprise from the defense.
The Court will allow that exhibit to be . . . hang on
a second here.
(The Court confers with the Courtroom Deputy
privately.)
THE COURT: The Court will allow the attachments that
were not included with the exhibit to be admitted and attached
to, I think you said, 167?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 175 of 177 PageID
5101
176
JURY CHARGE CONFERENCE
MR. DICKERSON: Correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Leeman, do you want that separately
marked, so you can distinguish between what you presented and
what the exhibit looks like now?
MR. LEEMAN: I'm not sure -- I've yet to -- I'm
trying to think of different ways this may play out
where . . . . I think the only reason to keep it separate
would be in order to ensure that we have a clean record in case
anyone ever makes anything of this issue. So I would prefer
that it be made separate somehow, at least for sort of record
notification purposes. I'm certainly open to ideas on how to
do that. I don't have one at the moment.
THE COURT: Well, someone can put in the record the
number of pages of your exhibit; and then, when we have 40
pages more, we'll know the last 35 are the defendant's.
MR. LEEMAN: We could do that.
THE COURT: Or something like that.
MR. LEEMAN: We do could do that, Your Honor, if I
could retrieve the exhibit.
THE COURT: Sure. We don't need to be on the record,
I don't think, to do this. You two can work it out, and if you
can't, you can tell me in the morning, and I'll fix it.
MR. LEEMAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. LEEMAN: No, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 176 of 177 PageID
5102
177
COURT RECESSED FOR THE DAY
MR. DICKERSON: Not from the defense, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. I'll see you at 9:00 o'clock.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
(At 2:59 p.m., court was recessed, to be reconvened
at 9:00 a.m., on Friday, March 26, 2021.)
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 2:20-cr-00114-JES-M_M Document 192 Filed 11/15/21 Page 177 of 177 PageID
5103File and source
- File
- gov.uscourts.flmd.381779.192.0.pdf
- Size
- 491,718 bytes
- SHA-256
- ac02599bdf6834698f5624bc43d104c9cd114073a5bd29cf5dbbf2cb985e61d0
- Original
- PACER (login required)