Trump's Regulatory Rollback: Saving Americans $907 Billion and Counting (Senate Small Business Committee hearing, November 19, 2025)
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Printed record of the Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship hearing of November 19, 2025, Trump's Regulatory Rollback: Saving Americans $907 Billion and Counting, S. Hrg. 119–250. Chair Joni Ernst presided, the committee meeting at 2:33 p.m. in Room 428A of the Russell Senate Office Building with Senators Young, Hawley, Booker and Hirono present. The sole witness was Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel for Advocacy at the U.S. Small Business Administration. Ernst's opening statement describes overregulation as a consistent thorn in the side of Iowa small businesses, which lack staff dedicated to compliance or legal teams. The record adds a United States Chamber of Commerce letter dated November 19, 2025 and Mulligan's responses to questions from Ranking Member Markey.
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“Trump's Regulatory Rollback: Saving Americans $907 Billion and Counting (Senate Small Business Committee hearing, November 19, 2025).”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/trump-s-regulatory-rollback-saving-americans-907-billion-and-counting-277b9b9a1f/
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S. HRG. 119–250
TRUMP’S REGULATORY ROLLBACK: SAVING
AMERICANS $907 BILLION AND COUNTING
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
NOVEMBER 19, 2025
Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
(
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
62–295 WASHINGTON : 2026
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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
JONI ERNST, Iowa, Chair
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Ranking Member
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
RAND PAUL, Kentucky JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina COREY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
TODD YOUNG, Indiana CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
TED BUDD, North Carolina JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
JON HUSTED, Ohio
MEREDITH WEST, Republican Staff Director
SEAN MOORE, Democratic Staff Director
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CONTENTS
NOVEMBER 19, 2025
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Joni Ernst, United States Senator from Iowa ....................................................... 1
WITNESS
The Honorable Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel for Advocacy, U.S. Small
Business Administration, Washington, DC ....................................................... 3
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 6
ADDITIONAL LETTERS/STATEMENTS FOR THE RECORD
Unted States Chamber of Commerce
Letter Dated November 19, 2025 .................................................................... 30
QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
The Honorable Casey B. Mulligan
Responses to questions submitted by Ranking Member Markey ................. 32
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TRUMP’S REGULATORY ROLLBACK: SAVING
AMERICANS $907 BILLION AND COUNTING
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2025
UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:33 p.m., in Room
428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Joni Ernst, chairwoman
of the committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Ernst [presiding], Young, Hawley, Booker, and
Hirono.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST
CHAIR. I call the Committee on Small Business and Entrepre-
neurship to order. As I travel from river to river across Iowa, I
hear from small businesses about the consistent thorn in their side,
which is overregulation. In fact, when asked about federal regula-
tions, Iowans consistently tell me to bring back a simple message
to Washington bureaucrats; stay out of our way.
For a small business, regulatory compliance is more than just a
headache. It’s wasted time and money they’d rather put back into
their businesses. It forces folks to jump through hoops designed by
people who have never run a payroll, or had to scramble to keep
their doors open and their lights on.
In Iowa, most entrepreneurs do not have extra folks on hand
dedicated to compliance, or a legal team to comply with regulations
designed for large corporations, not to mention the endless time
and money to fight Uncle Sam if they miss one small paperwork
requirement.
Unfortunately, during the previous administration, federal bu-
reaucrats ignored the resources and bandwidth of our small busi-
nesses. During the Biden administration, a record shattering
107,262 pages of rules were added to the Federal Register, which
cost an estimated $1.8 trillion, with a T, trillion dollars, and added
256 million hours of paperwork onto the plates of small business
owners.
During President Biden’s last year in office alone, his adminis-
tration issued over 3,000 final rules. The regulatory costs of the
Biden administration’s reckless rulemaking were more than 15
times higher than President Trump’s first term, and over three
times higher than of Barack Obama’s entire presidency.
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The massive mountain of paperwork hours due to bureaucratic
red tape cuts into small businesses, bottom lines. It slows job cre-
ation and balloons compliance costs. It’s simply bad for business.
Since January, the Trump administration has published $702 bil-
lion in total regulatory cost savings, and cut 72.1 million hours of
paperwork, altogether, with additional deregulatory efforts. These
actions so far could save American taxpayers up to $907 billion.
And I know these savings will only grow as small businesses re-
cover from the previous administration’s regulatory onslaught. The
Trump administration is hard at work making sure agencies delete,
revoke, and rescind the harmful regulations of previous administra-
tions.
I’ve been pleased to work with Administrator Zeldin to help bring
common sense back to the Environmental Protection Agency, where
the Trump EPA has been especially busy. Just this week, the EPA
proposed an updated Waters of the United States, or WOTUS Rule,
to clarify what is covered by WOTUS. This proposed rule follows
my Clean Waters Act, which would codify that groundwater and
waste treatment systems are not navigable waters, and end this
government overreach for our farmers, landowners, and small busi-
nesses.
I am also glad that the EPA is working to overturn the agency’s
harmful Obama-era Endangerment Finding, which allowed far left
administrations to pave the way for EV mandates and Green New
Deal policies. The Trump EPA estimates that the Endangerment
Finding has been used to justify over $1 trillion in hidden taxes on
small businesses and American families. Revoking that finding
would save Americans $54 billion annually.
Today, our committee will hear from Chief Counsel for Advocacy,
Dr. Casey Mulligan. In any administration, the Office of Advocacy
is a valuable counterweight to the sprawling bureaucratic mess
that regulations create for small businesses.
Dr. Mulligan, thank you so much for your steadfast commitment
to identifying regulatory pain points that make it difficult for small
businesses to grow. It has been a personal mission of mine to end
the red tape nightmare that has tormented our small business
owners.
And earlier this year, I reintroduced the PROVE IT Act. My bill
requires agencies to consider both the direct and indirect costs for
small businesses before finalizing regulations. It requires Advocacy
to formally review federal agency certification of rules, and prove
that the federal government is fully compliant with existing law,
and it gives small businesses a voice in the rulemaking process to
shift the balance of power away from the administrative state and
back onto the Main Street.
I also introduced the RED TAPE Act, earlier this year, to expose
the true price tag of Washington’s red tape and end Biden shady
circular, A–4 scheme used to conceal the cost of federal regulations.
Just a few weeks later, President Trump issued Executive Order
14192, which mirrored my legislation and formally rescinded the
Biden-era guidance. This sort of common-sense legislation along
with the deregulatory action of this administration will truly lead
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to a golden age for America’s small business.
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I look forward to hearing from Dr. Mulligan today about further
ways we can work together to reduce regulatory burdens on small
firms. Ranking Member Markey is unable to make it today, so we
will go ahead, and we will start then with your statement. So, you,
Dr. Mulligan, are recognized. I’ll give you an introduction first, but
then, you will have five minutes for your opening statements.
And again, I would like to extend a warm welcome today to our
witness, Dr. Casey Mulligan. I’m thankful that you took the time
out of your busy schedule to be here with us, and I think it looks
like it might be a quick hearing today. We will have members come
and go throughout the day, but the committee is excited to hear
about the work of the Office of Advocacy, and your work to limit
the regulatory burdens on small businesses since your confirma-
tion.
In August, Dr. Mulligan was confirmed by the Senate, and cur-
rently serves as the SBA’s Chief Counsel for Advocacy. Prior to
this, he was a professor at the University of Chicago, specializing
in labor economics, public policy, and the impacts of regulation on
economic behavior.
During the first Trump administration, he served as chief econo-
mist for the White House Council of Economic Advisors. Dr. Mul-
ligan received his Bachelor of Arts from Harvard University, and
earned his Ph.D. in economics from the University of Chicago.
I ask unanimous consent that Dr. Mulligan’s full statement be
included in the record. And without objection, it is so ordered. And
with that, Dr. Mulligan, you’re recognized for five minutes for your
testimony. You may begin.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CASEY B. MULLIGAN, CHIEF
COUNSEL FOR ADVOCACY, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINIS-
TRATION, WASHINGTON, DC
Dr. MULLIGAN. Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, and mem-
bers of the committee, I’m honored to discuss with you the small
business effects of President Trump’s regulatory agenda. My testi-
mony does not necessarily reflect the views of the administration
or of the SBA.
Before I begin, I would like to thank the committee for sup-
porting my nomination to this position of Chief Counsel, and I look
forward to working with you to support America’s small businesses.
The Biden administration finalized 12,000 rules that would cost
almost $6 trillion. Against that backdrop, President Trump was
elected to stop, and I quote him, ‘‘ever expanding morass of com-
plicated federal regulation.’’ He directed agencies to identify regula-
tions that impose undue burdens on small businesses.
Advocacy is well positioned to help agencies follow in that direc-
tion. During my nomination hearing, I committed to prioritizing
meeting small businesses where they are, and I have done so in
person, in Iowa even, together with our regional advocates who
every day gather small business perspectives nationwide and bring
them into policy discussions here in Washington.
For years, small businesses burdened by regulations remained si-
lent, fearing retaliation. Now, they tell Advocacy that this adminis-
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tration is the first to listen and to understand. One even said that
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Advocacy quite literally saved Christmas, as agencies have been
seeking comment on candidates for deregulation.
My office has flagged roughly 300 issues, particularly those giv-
ing large organizations an artificial advantage over small ones. One
example is the Outpatient Prospective Payment System, which
pays hospitals more for identical services than it pays independent
physicians.
The Trump administration has already delivered substantial reg-
ulatory relief for small businesses. For example, the One Big Beau-
tiful Bill zeroed out the penalty on auto manufacturers that fail to
achieve Biden’s impossible fuel economy standards. With approxi-
mately 14 million Schedule C businesses owning vehicles, that
change alone positioned small entities to save tens of billions of
dollars.
In addition, President Trump and Congress removed 16 regula-
tions this year by way of the Congressional Review Act. More rule
changes are on the way. Among roughly 60 economically significant
rules so far, the largest savings likely come from the rule that the
chair mentioned, which is to stop greenhouse gas regulations of ve-
hicles. Without that action, vehicle quality would’ve fallen and
prices risen, costing small businesses about half a trillion dollars.
Another rule flagged by small businesses is the proposed OSHA
Heat rule. It would impose sweeping one-size-fits-all, and often ab-
surd requirements, on workplaces where heat is above certain tem-
peratures. During a meeting with Advocacy, an Arizona water-
melon farmer explained that the rule would require shade struc-
tures even though harvesting occurs at night when there’s no sun
to be shaded.
In contrast, well-designed deregulation increases competition and
productivity. President Trump’s first term was a case in point. Pre-
scription drug prices fell for the first time in decades. Deregulation
sharply reduced internet access prices. And that’s all about the
competition channel that we see in the Regulatory Flexibility Act.
While regulators are quick to sanction businesses when they vio-
late the requirements, they often fail to follow the rules Congress
set. A particularly frequent practice has been to unlawfully certify
important rules as not having a significant economic impact on a
substantial number of small entities. Such certifications are a path-
way to capricious enforcement actions.
In Orwellian fashion, 65 percent of the major rules from the
Biden administration were nonetheless said to lack significant ef-
fects on small businesses or otherwise not require any consider-
ation of those effects. Small businesses were saddled with at least
a hundred billion in costs without any acknowledgement that there
were costs.
President Trump’s Restoring Gold Standard Science Executive
Order initiates additional reforms that small entities have long
sought: decisions that rest on transparent data and reproducible
methods. For example, independent fishermen find the modeling of
fisheries by the Biden administration to be outdated and contrary
to the Magnuson-Stevens Act. Among other things, they point to
Georges Bank where closures aimed at protecting groundfish also
stopped scallop harvest, leaving an estimated $52 million in annual
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Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As Chief Counsel,
I will continue to listen and to work toward better policy for all
small businesses. And I would be happy to answer questions.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Mulligan follows.]
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CHAIR. Wonderful. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan. And we’ll begin the
questioning round, and I will recognize myself for five minutes for
questions.
So, Dr. Mulligan, the cost of living and affordability for Ameri-
cans, including our small businesses, has been top of mind for
President Trump in the first year of his second term. Overregula-
tion makes it difficult for small firms to stay in business, and it
also hurts every American family struggling with the cost of
childcare, home heating, and electricity, and housing affordability.
With the holidays around the corner, how has deregulation made
everyday items more affordable for our American families?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. And the answer is
much anticipated in the Regulatory Flexibility Act. It points to two
issues with regulatory overreach. One, is by discouraging the
smaller companies from entering the market. There’s less competi-
tion, and those bigger companies who are still there are free to
charge quite a bit.
The other channel is productivity. We ended up using more re-
sources to do the same amount because of the extra paperwork and
extra compliance. So, electricity, for example, we need more re-
sources to make the same electricity, which means higher elec-
tricity prices for people. We’ve seen that throughout the energy
area in the last four years. Delivering energy to our consumers has
been quite difficult.
CHAIR. Good. And I appreciate that, and the fact that we are try-
ing to drive those costs down. And it’s just common-sense measures
that this administration is taking.
So, Dr. Mulligan, as your testimony had pointed out, small busi-
nesses across Iowa and America are hurting due to the compliance
costs that Washington bureaucrats don’t even think twice about.
For our small business owners, extra paperwork means less time
actually working to grow their businesses.
And as you know, as I discussed earlier, I’ve introduced the
PROVE IT Act to make bureaucrats prove that those proposed
rules do not harm small businesses. And it gives Advocacy further
tools to enforce their mission, and to ensure small businesses are
considered in the rulemaking process.
How would the tools given to your office in the PROVE IT Act
allow you to better interact with your federal partners, and what
legislative authority would you still need?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. My experience so
far in the Trump administration, which has just been a few
months, they’re extremely supportive of Advocacy and the small
businesses. They’re coming to me quite often asking, ‘‘What can we
do to make the rules better for small businesses?’’
But President Trump won’t always be our President. And then
what happens after that? And I think legislation would be quite
helpful to stop the practice that we saw so much in the last four
years of saying that a regulation is not meaningful for the small
businesses, when in fact, it’s quite meaningful and can sometimes
put them out of business.
CHAIR. Yes, we’ve seen that a lot through the years, and hope-
fully, we’ll be able to get the PROVE IT Act across the finish line.
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That is definitely a goal of mine.
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Recently, the CFPB released a proposed rule regarding small
business lending. And just this week, the EPA released a new pro-
posed WOTUS rule. How do these new rules compare to their pred-
ecessors in terms of their impact on small businesses?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Both of those rules, when they came out before
this administration, they were adding costs, as we heard in my of-
fice about those costs. And the new rules, they’re in the proposed
stage. They’re largely set to reverse what was done. And during the
process, I’ve seen in, even in preparing the proposed rules, there
was a lot of listening to small businesses, and those agencies told
us, ‘‘Wow we were glad to hear from them because we were able
to make a better proposed rule based on the wisdom that they
heard from outside the Beltway.
CHAIR. That is good. And I’ll just share a very abbreviated story,
but also when it came to farmers under the Biden WOTUS rule,
if a farmer who had not tilled his field for a while, if he decided
to farm that land again, there was additional cost because that
farmer was fined hundreds of thousands of dollars for disturbing
the land that he owned and intended to farm.
So, not only is there a cost of regulation and adhering to that
regulation, but then there’s the government overreach where you
can also be fined for simply doing your normal day-to-day activities
as a small business owner, which are farmers or small business
owners.
So, my time is expired. We’ll come back for additional questions,
but at this point, I will recognize the Senator from Hawaii, Senator
Hirono, for five minutes.
Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, you are the ad-
vocate, I suppose, for small businesses, right? You the counsel. So,
as I talk with small businesses in my state, the biggest thing that
they are concerned about right now are the President’s tariffs. But
you’re not talking about the tariffs as increasing costs for small
businesses in your testimony. Why not?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. I think the tariffs
you’re referring to came out around April 1st, and——
Senator HIRONO. Well, the President’s tariffs, they come and they
go. There’s a certain unpredictableness about it, and that that’s an-
other reason that small businesses are concerned, and that there
have already been billions of dollars in payments that businesses
have had to make. And by the way, so can you answer my ques-
tion? Why aren’t you talking about tariffs as being a cost driver for
small businesses?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Advocacy doesn’t make the rules about tariffs or
anything else. We have two things we do. Number one, we lis-
ten——
Senator HIRONO. But excuse me, your job is to, did you just say,
listen to small businesses and address their concerns, their concern
being impact of the tariffs?
Dr. MULLIGAN. One way. Number two, make sure those people
who do make the policy are aware of those concerns. And my posi-
tion is subject to Senate confirmation, even though the President
was incredibly quick to get me nominated, and the chair of this
committee was incredibly quick to get the hearing going. Somehow,
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the Senate did not finish the job until well after the trade policies
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were initiated. So, the chief counsel chair at those policy discus-
sions was empty.
Senator HIRONO. You are avoiding answering my question, you
know, that President Trump has imposed tariffs in April. And then,
as I said, they come and go. And my question to you is, knowing
that these tariffs are very detrimental in raising costs for small
businesses, why aren’t you talking about tariffs in your testimony?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. My job is to listen
to the small businesses, and to communicate to those who do make
the policies their concerns. Right on the heels of——
Senator HIRONO. And so, did you tell the people who are making
these policy decisions that the tariffs are hurting small businesses?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Let me explain to you how that worked. On the
heels of my confirmation, the government was shut down. So, while
I was able to listen—thank you, Congress, for the excellent funding
you gave my office so we could stay open. I was listening like crazy,
but it was not until the government reopened.
And let me tell you, last Wednesday, government was still closed.
The White House called me at 8:00 p.m. and they said, ‘‘Casey, get
over here. The government’s open tomorrow. The agencies need to
hear what the small businesses are telling you.’’
And I went there, and I sat close to——
Senator HIRONO. If I look a little frustrated, that’s because I am.
You wrote in your book, ‘‘Tariffs are taxes on small businesses.’’
And wouldn’t taxes on small businesses hurt small businesses? So,
you don’t need to be confirmed, or talk to them, or whatever.
You’ve written about it. So, why is it that we can’t hear what
you’re going to do to help small businesses deal with this on again,
off again, tariff situation.
By the way, I’ve talked to small businesses in Hawaii, and any-
body who imports anything, any part of a product that the Hawaii
businesses sell, and that goes for small businesses all across the
country, are having to pay higher costs.
So, there’s a chip maker in Hawaii, for example, he gets some of
his packaging from China. He’s had to pay more for his product,
which are chips. So, there is no question that these tariffs that
Trump tariffs are hurting small businesses. And yet, you’re not
here to tell us about how that is impacting small businesses. And
not to mention, I would like to ask you, are tariffs taxes? Yes or
no?
Dr. MULLIGAN. I just wasn’t able to finish answering your ques-
tion, which is what am I telling Trump people about the tariffs.
Senator HIRONO. I’m moving on——
Dr. MULLIGAN. I’m in the middle of telling that——
Senator HIRONO. I’m moving on to ask you; are tariffs taxes?
Dr. MULLIGAN. President Trump campaigned on changing the
composition of revenue——
Senator HIRONO. Are tariffs taxes?
Dr. MULLIGAN. They’re a source of revenue.
Senator HIRONO. Are tariffs taxes? Why aren’t you answering the
question? You said so in your book that tariffs are taxes.
Madam Chair, I don’t know why our witness, the single witness
we have, who’s supposed to be talking about impacts on small busi-
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nesses and how we can be of help, and the biggest impact that
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they’re having to face right now are the tariffs, and we have a wit-
ness who’s not responding to my questions. I thank you very much.
CHAIR. Thank you, Senator. And I would also respond that. What
the Trump administration is doing by releasing some of the over-
reach from the federal government on those small businesses, it
has created some equilibrium to any hurt that small businesses
may be feeling.
So, this is something that we can do for the long run, though,
is undo the pain of the pressure from some of these regulations
that are fine for larger corporations, but certainly do hurt those
smaller businesses. So, I appreciate that.
And I would also recommend that the members of the committee,
also, should be the ones advocating for their small businesses and
reaching out. If they feel that there is a concern from small busi-
nesses, they should take that to the administration. So, I know I
certainly do. I have those conversations with the President and the
administration.
And, Senator Booker, thank you so much. If you would go ahead
and direct your questions to the witness, you are recognized for five
minutes.
Senator BOOKER. Chairwoman, I really appreciate you. Thank
you for having this hearing. Gives us an opportunity to have a con-
versation.
Mr. Mulligan, I crisscross my state and really am interested in
the success of small businesses. They are the top job givers in our
state and job providers. It’s extraordinary to see these entre-
preneurs who risk their capital, and make serious investments in
not just the success of their businesses, but as you know, small
businesses radiate into our communities or are part of the fabric
of our towns, especially a state like New Jersey, which is runs on
our small towns.
One of my biggest concerns I hear from my small businesses
right now is just healthcare. They’re getting really stuck pretty
badly with healthcare costs. Congress did sweeping cuts to the fed-
eral healthcare funding programs, and has really given tax cuts not
to some of the small businesses, but seen a lot of them manure to
the benefit of the wealthiest there are.
And so, the CBO, which is the non-partisan Congressional Budg-
et Office, as you know, estimates the healthcare provisions in that
bill will increase our deficit by $907 billion from 2025 to 2034. And
the increases, the number of uninsured Americans, by 10 million
by 2034, and additional 4.2 million will lose their Marketplace cov-
erage because the law failed to extend the tax credit enhance-
ments, which lower annual premiums by more than $700 on aver-
age for people who receive them simultaneously.
The small business businesses with the Affordable Care Act are
facing premium increases of about, on average, 11 percent for 2026,
according to an analysis of premium preliminary rate filings from
318 insurers across all 50 states.
And so, when I just finished crisscrossing my state, having town
halls, I was stunned. I thought we were going to be talking about
other issues, but small business after small business talked to me
about literally the impossibility of covering healthcare or even
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imagining trying to cover it for people to work for.
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I had one woman who has a flower business in my state who
talked about not only will she have to forego health insurance, her
and her husband, in order to keep it for their children, but having
the challenges also of watching their employees who get it through
the Marketplace have to lose their insurance as well.
So, as the administration finalizes its regulations for the Trump
tax bill, will you advocate for the small business owners whose
prices are going up due to the administration’s economic policies,
or who will actually lose valuable employees, as some of the owners
told me that are going to go to places where they’re going to get
health coverage because they can no longer afford it themselves?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. The short answer
is yes. I listen to the small businesses, and then I report what I
hear to those who make the rules, and around healthcare in this
case. And like you, I hear a lot, and my staff hears a lot about
healthcare. We have a letter on our website where we’ve gathered
together, my count was 97 different healthcare issues, that we
heard about from small businesses. And the cost of insurance is
something that’s often cited.
One thing that’s often cited is the pandemic emergency. We hear
in so many different ways that rules that were put in place during
the pandemic are still there and the pandemic emergency doesn’t
end. And that really undermines a number of healthcare——
Senator BOOKER. I’m going to interrupt you because I got 90 sec-
onds. So, I get it. As a former mayor, the bureaucracy, the rules,
all of these things, this is where I find a lot of agreement with my
colleagues on the other side of the aisle. But the biggest issue, and
I’m not overstating this at all, was the staggering premium cost,
the staggering cost of people’s healthcare.
And you said, yes, I’ll advocate for that. But I’m wondering spe-
cifically when you’re saying on your own website, I think that you
were mentioning you’re having people bring this problem. I’m ask-
ing you then, what is the solution? What will you be specifically ad-
vocating for to deal with the number one issue?
And it’s anecdotal, but that I heard in county after county of
New Jersey, meeting with small business people, thinking I was
going to talk about other issues. But every conversation centered
around this staggering cost of healthcare. And I’m wondering, you
as a person that’s in a very important position, what specifically is
the solution, as you see it?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. We have 97 spe-
cifics in the letter, but if I were to organize them, as we did in the
beginning of that letter, really the Regulatory Flexibility Act prin-
ciples apply very well to those 97, which is there are a lot of regu-
lations that reduce competition in healthcare.
And I mentioned in my opening statement things that increase
the cost of healthcare by undermining independent physicians. And
the other aspect is wasted resources. To deliver the same
healthcare, we need more resources because of all the red tape.
Senator BOOKER. And have you thought about the consequences?
Because the immediacy of this, it starts at the end of the year,
what are the consequences going to be for small businesses that see
their costs going up tens of thousands of dollars; not being able to
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cover their families, or facing employees leaving? Have you thought
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26
about—because to me it seems like quite the tsunami that’s about
to hit small businesses with their costs going up 5 percent, 10 per-
cent, 15 percent just for health insurance alone.
Dr. MULLIGAN. What we have been doing at my office, and I’ve
been doing myself, is again, listening to what the small businesses
have to say and the problems that they express.
Senator BOOKER. But there’s no—you have no immediate solu-
tion, in your mind, for in January?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Well, I have 97 solutions that I heard from the
small businesses. They’re not from Casey Mulligan, they’re from
the small businesses. Some of them are immediate and others may
take more time.
Senator BOOKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAIR. Yes, thank you, Senator Booker. And I would say, as you
pointed out, there are steep premium increases. So, just simply al-
lowing subsidies to continue to flow doesn’t bring the cost of
healthcare down. So, I think this is something we all should be
able to work on together; is figure out what is going on in
healthcare that’s driving those costs up, and how do we actually
lower the cost of the healthcare so that it’s just not significant pre-
miums.
So, I hope that we all can come together and figure that out be-
cause, yes, our small businesses need an option that is affordable
and allows easy access to healthcare. So, thank you, God bless you.
And Senator Hawley, you are recognized for five minutes.
Senator HAWLEY. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Dr. Mul-
ligan, thank you for being here. Let me just start, if I could, by ask-
ing a little bit about rural businesses. This is something that I
talked to the administrator about when she was here for her con-
firmation hearings.
I was sort of surprised, fairly stunned actually, to see these num-
bers. The Biden administration’s SBA spent in Fiscal Year 2024
alone, out of 103,000 loans, only 12,500 of them went to rural busi-
nesses. 12 percent of the $56 billion in capital last fiscal year, $6
billion went to rural businesses. That’s less than 11 percent.
My state is majority rural. We have many, many small busi-
nesses throughout the state that are located in rural areas. And,
obviously, I think a key function of the small business administra-
tion is to protect and promote rural businesses. So, let me just ask,
what office—what role, rather, does your office, the Office of Advo-
cacy play in promoting rural small businesses?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. And we know from
a lot of our analysis and visiting in person, small businesses are
especially prominent in rural areas. And as I committed in my
nomination hearing and I have done in person, is to go out and
visit, go where they are. Don’t ask them to come to Washington,
go visit them.
We even had an instance a month or two ago where it was such
a remote area that my regional advocate took a mule for the last
couple of miles. And we’re really going to great lengths to hear
from—in that case, it was ranchers. And the ranchers were thrilled
that we were listening, and they were thrilled with the results that
we’re getting. And we came back to President Trump’s team to
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start to improve some of that poor policy in the rural areas.
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Senator HAWLEY. What steps do you think can Congress take to
ensure SBA prioritizes rural areas and rural businesses? Any rec-
ommendations you might have?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Maybe I’d like to meet with my staff and get back
to you. That’s a serious ask, and I don’t want to have a glib answer
to that. Certainly, there is lots of room because a lot of our policies
have not treated the rural areas well.
Senator HAWLEY. Yeah, understood. And I certainly, agree with
that, and I just want to point out that, you know, programs like
the 7(a) Loans, the 504 Certified Development Company Loans,
Disaster Recovery Assistance, these kinds of programs are abso-
lutely vital to rural America, in general, and to rural businesses in
particular. And they need support and advocacy from your office
and, and across the agency.
Let me just ask you for a second while I’ve got you here in my
remaining time. Let’s go back to talk a little bit about SBA’s 8(a)
Program. You’re familiar with the 8(a) Program, Dr. Mulligan?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Kelly Loeffler, that’s her area. Now, any regula-
tion that she puts out because she’s subject to the Regulatory Flexi-
bility Act, I would review, and again, hear from the small busi-
nesses and comment on that. So, I’m familiar with it from that per-
spective, but I’m not involved in making the 8(a) rules.
Senator HAWLEY. Well, I guess my question is this. I mean, the
8(a) has been back in the news recently for reports of all kinds of
corruption and waste of taxpayer dollars. You’ve got the most re-
cent example, ATI Government Solutions, which is a technology
services company, apparently that improperly, maybe fraudulently,
claimed ownership Native American ownership to get 8(a) status,
and has been exposed now for acting as a pass-through organiza-
tion to take unfair advantage of this program.
These things are happening. We’re seeing these reports pro-
liferate, and we don’t have an Inspector General at SBA. So, I
guess maybe my question should be, given what you just said a mo-
ment ago, I mean, do you think it’s time that we get an Inspector
General at SBA so that we’re able to address these allegations or
reports of fraud?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. I have been frus-
trated in that Senate confirmation process on how long it took. It
shouldn’t take that long. And you’re right, it’s taking way too long
for the SBA Inspector General.
Senator HAWLEY. Yeah, I think so, too. Thank you, Madam
Chair.
CHAIR. Thank you so much. And I’ll take five minutes additional
for a few more questions. I really appreciate your time today, Dr.
Mulligan.
I do want to turn to the great work that you have been doing
at the Office of Advocacy. You and your team have worked really
hard to shed light on a lot of these hard-to-understand regulations.
There’s a lot on the books that are small businesses. They don’t
have the time to research. They don’t have the time to understand.
They don’t have additional personnel to sort through all of that,
and it costs them money.
So, as you’ve traveled across the country, I know you’ve met with
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a lot of small businesses, you’ve had discussions with small firms.
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What is the top existing regulation that is currently negatively af-
fecting small businesses that those of us here in Congress can actu-
ally grab a hold of, or even something that exists that the adminis-
tration might be able to grab a hold of, and look at reforming or
rolling back?
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. There are regula-
tions in both categories, and in fact, working together like Congress
did on the Congressional Review Act, that small businesses are
very thankful for that. That gives them more durability and more
certainty going forward.
You know, a top one is a little bit hard. We just put on our
website, advocacy.sba.gov, a most wanted list. And there’s not just
one on there, but it’s a fairly short list. These are the ones we
heard most from the small businesses. And often, in a dollar sense,
they have costs well into the billions, just for one of the rules.
The 2024 Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification is one that
we hear a lot from small businesses that are involved or hope to
be involved in contracting, the 2024 Heat rule, quarterly payroll fil-
ings. And believe it or not, 15 years on, the Obamacares employer
mandate.
CHAIR. I wish we had had that question just a little bit ago. So,
yes, the mandate can be very, very costly, but I do hope that as
a Congress or as an administration, that we can all work together
to find some reasonable solutions to help our small businesses in
all of those areas.
So, following the bureaucratic nightmare created by the former
administration, the Trump administration has been really working
very hard to slash a lot of the regulations and red tape that are
out there that affect small businesses, and make it cheaper and
simpler for these small business owners to comply with federal reg-
ulations.
And your office has been playing a key role in that fight. So, Dr.
Mulligan, I intend to follow-up with, of course, perhaps a question
for the record. But as the first confirmed Chief Counsel for Advo-
cacy in a decade, and you noted that the seat had been vacant, but
you are the first one in a decade, I’m confident that you have many
well-informed ideas about how to strengthen and better that role
for the benefit of all of our small businesses.
So, if you would, briefly, because I only have a minute and a half
left, just briefly describe what you’ve thought about any legislative
changes that you would recommend that could be helpful to us, and
in addition to the PROVE IT Act, of course, because I would like
to see that over the finish line. But things that would allow us to
be good champions for our small businesses.
Dr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. One idea in the
spirit of the PROVE IT Act would maybe to require that any major
rule can’t be certified without the Chief Counsel’s approval. Let’s
stop the double-talk, the Orwellian doublespeak. That would be an
idea.
If you can, take a look at President Trump’s budget, it’s an excel-
lent budget. But one of the things that it does is really support the
Office of Advocacy to a much greater degree than the draft budget
that came out of the House. So, if the Senate could look at that,
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that would also, I think, be helpful.
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CHAIR. Wonderful.
Dr. MULLIGAN. And I know the small businesses are very appre-
ciative of what Advocacy is able to do now that it has a Senate-
confirmed leadership.
CHAIR. I think that’s great. And again, I’ll reform this question.
I’ll submit it for a question for the record. And then, as you’re hear-
ing from some of those small businesses, you said you had 97 dif-
ferent ideas or suggestions that are out there or topics. Perhaps
some of those might make its way here to the halls of Congress,
and we could actually work on some solutions for those small busi-
nesses.
So, I will stop the questions here, and do appreciate your time
today. I thank you. I know it is a busy day on the Hill, but thank
you for being here. I see that there are no further questions. So,
again, thank you for joining us.
I ask unanimous consent that the record of today’s hearing re-
main open for two weeks for members to submit questions, revise,
and extend their remarks, and submit additional information into
the record.
And without objection, it is so ordered.
And with that, the Committee on Small Business and Entrepre-
neurship stands adjourned. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan.
[Whereupon, at 3:14 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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