The Small Business Administration's Entrepreneurial Ecosystem: An Update and Next Steps with SBA's Resource Partners (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, May 19, 2021)
Summary
Printed record of a hearing of the House Committee on Small Business, Subcommittee on Innovation, Entrepreneurship, and Workforce Development, held May 19, 2021, titled The Small Business Administration's Entrepreneurial Ecosystem: An Update and Next Steps with SBA's Resource Partners, Small Business Committee Document Number 117–014. Opening statements came from Hon. Jason Crow and Hon. Young Kim. Witnesses were Charles Tee Rowe, president and chief executive officer of America's Small Business Development Centers; Bridget Weston, chief executive officer of the Service Corps of Retired Executives (SCORE); Corinne Hodges, chief executive officer of the Association of Women's Business Centers; and Patrick Montgomery, founder and chief executive officer of Kansas City Cattle Company. The appendix prints their statements and answers to questions from Crow.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
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“The Small Business Administration's Entrepreneurial Ecosystem: An Update and Next Steps with SBA's Resource Partners (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, May 19, 2021).”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/the-small-business-administration-s-entrepreneurial-ecosystem-an-updat-91f82ed855/
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THE SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION’S
ENTREPRENEURIAL ECOSYSTEM: AN UPDATE
AND NEXT STEPS WITH SBA’S RESOURCE
PARTNERS
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON INNOVATION,
ENTREPRENEURSHIP,
AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD
MAY 19, 2021
Small Business Committee Document Number 117–014
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
44–566 WASHINGTON : 2021
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman
JARED GOLDEN, Maine
JASON CROW, Colorado
SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
MARIE NEWMAN, Illinois
CAROLYN BOURDEAUX, Georgia
TROY CARTER, Louisiana
JUDY CHU, California
DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
ANTONIO DELGADO, New York
CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
ANDY KIM, New Jersey
ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri, Ranking Member
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
JIM HAGEDORN, Minnesota
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
ANDREW GARBARINO, New York
YOUNG KIM, California
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
BYRON DONALDS, Florida
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
MELISSA JUNG, Majority Staff Director
ELLEN HARRINGTON, Majority Deputy Staff Director
DAVID PLANNING, Staff Director
(II)
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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Jason Crow ...................................................................................................... 1
Hon. Young Kim ...................................................................................................... 2
WITNESSES
Mr. Charles ‘‘Tee’’ Rowe, President & Chief Executive Officer, America’s
Small Business Development Centers, Burke, VA ............................................ 5
Ms. Bridget Weston, Chief Executive Officer, Service Corps of Retired Execu-
tives (SCORE), Herndon, VA .............................................................................. 6
Ms. Corinne Hodges, Chief Executive Officer, Association of Women’s Busi-
ness Centers, Washington, DC ............................................................................ 8
Mr. Patrick Montgomery, Founder & Chief Executive Officer, Kansas City
Cattle Company, Kansas City, MO .................................................................... 10
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. Charles ‘‘Tee’’ Rowe, President & Chief Executive Officer, America’s
Small Business Development Centers, Burke, VA ..................................... 26
Ms. Bridget Weston, Chief Executive Officer, Service Corps of Retired
Executives (SCORE), Herndon, VA ............................................................. 37
Ms. Corinne Hodges, Chief Executive Officer, Association of Women’s
Business Centers, Washington, DC ............................................................. 47
Mr. Patrick Montgomery, Founder & Chief Executive Officer, Kansas
City Cattle Company, Kansas City, MO ..................................................... 56
Questions and Answers for the Record:
Questions from Hon. Jason Crow to Mr. Charles ‘‘Tee’’ Rowe and Answers
from Mr. Charles ‘‘Tee’’ Rowe ...................................................................... 65
Questions from Hon. Jason Crow to Ms. Bridget Weston and Answers
from Ms. Bridget Weston ............................................................................. 67
Questions from Hon. Jason Crow to Ms. Corinne Hodges and Answers
from Ms. Corinne Hodges ............................................................................. 69
Questions from Hon. Jason Crow to Mr. Patrick Montgomery and An-
swers from Mr. Patrick Montgomery .......................................................... 70
Additional Material for the Record:
Secure Towns .................................................................................................... 58
Veteran Business Outreach Center Testimony .............................................. 60
(III)
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THE SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION’S
ENTREPRENEURIAL ECOSYSTEM: AN
UPDATE AND NEXT STEPS WITH SBA’S
RESOURCE PARTNERS
WEDNESDAY, MAY 19, 2021
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON INNOVATION, ENTREPRENEURSHIP,
AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:15 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building and via Zoom, Hon. Jason
Crow [chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Crow, Davids, Phillips, Newman,
Bourdeaux, Houlahan, Williams, Tenney, Garbarino, Ms. Young
Kim, and Salazar.
Chairman CROW. Good morning. I call this hearing to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess at
any time.
Let me begin by saying that standing House and Committee
rules and practice will continue to apply during hybrid proceedings.
All members are reminded that they are expected to adhere to
these standing rules, including decorum.
House regulations require members to be visible through a video
connection throughout the proceeding, so please keep your cameras
on. Also, please remember to remain muted until you are recog-
nized to minimize the background noise. If you have to participate
in another proceeding, please exit this one and log back in later.
In the event a member encounters technical issues that prevent
them from being recognized for their questioning, I will move to the
next available member of the same party and I will recognize that
member at the next appropriate time slot provided they have re-
turned to the proceeding.
For those members physically present in the Committee room
today, we will continue to wear masks unless we are speaking here
and socially distant while the Chairwoman and Ranking Member
work with the office of the attending physician on updated guide-
lines and procedures. Members and staff are expected to wear
masks while in the hearing. With that said, members will be al-
lowed to briefly remove their masks when recognized by the Chair
for statement and questions. I know we all look forward to return-
ing to normal, but appreciate everyone’s patience while we
prioritize the health and safety of our staff and each other.
(1)
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America’s 30 million small businesses support more than 56 mil-
lion jobs and account for nearly half of our nation’s GDP. It is no
exaggeration to say that these small firms are the foundation of
our economy. But despite the fundamental importance of these en-
terprises, the road to small business ownership is fraught and
paved with obstacles for prospective entrepreneurs.
Recognizing the uphill climb facing many of those wishing to
start and run a business, the SBA offers a wide range of free or
low-cost counseling and training services to entrepreneurs. To de-
liver these services, SBA relies on its four primary resource part-
ners: Small Business Development Centers, or SBDCs; Women
Business Centers, WBCs; SCORE; and Veteran Business Outreach
Centers, VBOCs.
From first-time entrepreneurs looking to create a business plan,
the long-time business owners looking for new ways to achieve
growth, these resource partners support small firms through every
step of the business cycle. These entrepreneur development initia-
tives have proven to be the difference between success and failure
for many, many businesses.
According to SBA’s 2013 Impact Study, small businesses that re-
ceive 3 or more hours of counseling have higher survival rates than
firms that receive less counseling. In turn, these businesses go on
to earn more revenue and employ more workers.
Resource partners have also served as a critical lifeline for small
businesses throughout the pandemic. When COVID struck, re-
source partners sprang into action, got innovative, and helped mil-
lions of entrepreneurs navigate a once in a lifetime crisis. I saw
that myself in my own community as businesses adapted and did
what they need to do to survive. I have heard so many stories from
my constituents in my district who relied on SBA’s resource part-
ners when they had nowhere else to turn.
I hope today’s hearing allows us to learn more about these pro-
grams, hear about challenges they are currently facing, and exam-
ine how this Committee can improve and expand their reach. I am
especially interested in learning what more we can do to raise
awareness of these programs and ensure that the maximum num-
ber of small businesses are taking advantage of them.
Today we will explore the resource partners’ current diversity
initiatives and efforts Congress can take to drive an equitable re-
covery. During the 116th Congress, the House passed three sepa-
rate bills to improve the SBA’s entrepreneurial development pro-
grams. If enacted into law, these bills would substantially improve
the SBDC, WBC, and SCORE programs and make them accessible
to more small businesses.
Unfortunately, the Senate did not consider any of these bills. I
look forward to updating and advancing similar bills and finding
new ways to strengthen SBA’s entrepreneurial development pro-
grams.
With that, I now yield to the Ranking Member for her opening
statement.
Ms. YOUNG KIM. Thank you, Chairman Crow. Following a year
of unprecedented state and local government shutdowns and regu-
lations, and hampered demand due to COVID-19, small businesses
are collectively starting to recover. The SBA’s entrepreneur devel-
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opment programs have long served as a resource to small busi-
nesses across the country. During the COVID-19 outbreak small
businesses in record numbers turned to the resource partners to
navigate the SBA’s emergency relief programs, including the Pay-
check Protection Program, the Economy Injury Disaster Loan Pro-
gram, the Shuttered Venue Operator’s Grant, and also the Res-
taurant Revitalization Fund and many others.
Through cooperative agreements, the SBA’s ED programs pro-
vide our nation’s entrepreneurs with free or low-cost training and
counseling on marketing, finance, technology, exports, human re-
sources, and more. We have all heard from constituents about how
Veterans Business Outreach Centers and Small Business Develop-
ment Centers, Women’s Business Centers, and the Service Core of
Retired Executives program can serve as valuable tools to small
businesses in their quest to grow their business, expand their con-
sumer base, gain access to capital, navigate government programs
and regulations, and meet their labor demands.
With states opening and vaccines being distributed, our nation’s
job creators are eagerly anticipating a return to normal business
operations and the SBA’s entrepreneur development partners can
help. However, as small businesses continue to reopen their doors
and start their path to recovery, they are met with the obstacle of
proposed tax increases, regulations, and a tight labor market.
The Department of Labor reported job openings reached a record
high of 8.1 million in March. According to NFIB’s April jobs report,
small business owners are experiencing the highest-ever reading of
unfilled job openings since polling started in 1973.
I look forward to learning more today about how the SBA’s entre-
preneur development programs can serve our small business own-
ers in combatting these challenges so they can continue to create
jobs, skill employees, innovate, and serve their communities. As
members of the Committee, we must also ensure the SBA is man-
aging these programs properly and administering the necessary
oversight. In light of recent SBA Office of Inspector General re-
ports, entrepreneur development programs must be examined
closely to ensure duplication does not occur and waste, fraud, and
abuse is prevented.
Today, we will hear from the associations that represented these
programs and also hear from Mr. Patrick Montgomery, who is a
small business owner and veteran who has utilized these programs,
on the effectiveness of technical assistance programs in supporting
small businesses and entrepreneurs in recovering from the pan-
demic and beyond.
So, I want to thank all of our witnesses who are here today in
person and on the virtual call for providing your testimonies. And
I yield back.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Ms. Kim. The gentlewoman yields
back.
I want to take a moment to explain how this hearing will pro-
ceed. Each witness is going to have 5 minutes to provide a state-
ment and each Committee member will have 5 minutes for ques-
tions. Please ensure that your microphone is on when you begin
speaking and that you return it to mute when you are finished.
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And with that, I would like to introduce our witnesses. Our first
witness today is Mr. ‘‘Tee’’ Rowe, president and CEO of America’s
SBDC. Mr. Rowe has been with America’s SBDC since August
2009. He has a long history for advocating for America’s small busi-
nesses, including serving as counsel for this Committee from 1991
to 2001, so you have done your time on the Hill. Mr. Rowe has
been a valuable advocate for the SBDC program and we are
pleased he is joining us again today. Welcome back, Mr. Rowe.
Our second witness is Ms. Bridget Weston, CEO of SCORE. As
CEO, Ms. Weston provides extensive leadership in works directly
and collaboratively with the board of directors to establish a vision
and direction of SCORE. In her 10 years with the organization she
has developed an in-depth understanding of the needs and chal-
lenges facing SCORE staff, its 300-plus chapters, and over 10,000
volunteers. Welcome back, Ms. Weston.
And our third witness is Ms. Corinne Hodges, CEO of the Asso-
ciation of Women Business Centers, AWBC. Ms. Hodges joined the
AWBC as CEO in 2019 and is charged with bringing about en-
hanced sustainability and increased capacity to the Association and
its members. Welcome back, Ms. Hodges.
I will now yield to the Ranking Member, Ms. Kim, to introduce
our final witness.
Ms. YOUNG KIM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our next witness
is Mr. Patrick Montgomery. As mentioned earlier, he is a veteran,
entrepreneur, and the chief executive officer and founder of KC
Cattle Company. After completing the Ranger Assessment and Se-
lection program in April 2011, Mr. Montgomery reported to the 1st
Ranger Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment. While serving as a rang-
er, Mr. Montgomery completed two combat deployments to Afghan-
istan. He served as an assistant gunner, anti-tank team leader,
shooter for a sniper team, gun team leader, and weapons squad
leader.
Following his service in the military, Mr. Montgomery completed
his bachelor of science in animal science at the University of Mis-
souri. And during his last semester in 2016, he created the busi-
ness plan for KC Cattle Company.
While building his business, Mr. Montgomery completed his exec-
utive MBA program through the University of Missouri College of
Business. Mr. Montgomery founded KC Cattle Company with the
mindset of bridging the gap between agriculture and the consumer.
His company provides the highest quality Wagyu beef via mail
order to consumers in all 50 states and is 100 percent veteran-
owned and a 100 percent veteran-operated company.
Mr. Montgomery, thank you for joining us today and thank you
for your service to our great nation.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Ms. Kim. And welcome, Mr. Mont-
gomery. It is good to have a fellow Ranger joining us today. Rang-
ers lead the way, although you did serve in our nation’s second best
Ranger battalion. That is an inside joke amongst us rangers. But
thank you, Mr. Montgomery. I appreciate you joining us here.
So, let us begin with Mr. Rowe. Mr. Rowe, you are now recog-
nized for 5 minutes.
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STATEMENTS OF CHARLES ‘‘TEE’’ ROWE, PRESIDENT & CHIEF
EXECUTIVE OFFICER, AMERICA’S SMALL BUSINESS DEVEL-
OPMENT CENTERS; BRIDGET WESTON, CHIEF EXECUTIVE
OFFICER, SERVICE CORPS OF RETIRED EXECUTIVES
(SCORE); CORINNE HODGES, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,
ASSOCIATION OF WOMEN’S BUSINESS CENTERS; PATRICK
MONTGOMERY, FOUNDER & CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,
KANSAS CITY CATTLE COMPANY
STATEMENT OF CHARLES ‘‘TEE’’ ROWE
Mr. ROWE. Thank you, Chairman Crow, Ranking Member Kim,
members of the Committee. Thank you for inviting me to testify.
I am a little thrown off because I am thinking about mail order
Wagyu right now.
I am president of America’s SBDC, the Association of Small Busi-
ness Development Centers. For 40 years, SBDCs have been pro-
viding services to small business owners throughout the nation. We
operate out of host institutions and operate statewide. We may be
headquartered at colleges, but our centers are in our communities.
That is why you will fine SBDCs at the International Rescue Com-
mittee in El Cajon or the East Los Angeles Initiative or the Boul-
der Public Library.
SBDCs help small businesses at all stages. Fifty percent of our
clients are women, roughly 10 percent of our clients are veterans,
and minority clients comprise over 38 percent of our client base.
Every year we provide over 1-1/2 million hours of counseling and
training to over 500,000 small business owners and their employ-
ees. And that assistance has generated great results. From 1990 to
2019, our clients accessed $76.5 billion in capital, increased their
sales by $127 billion, and created 3.3 million jobs, and they gen-
erated over $11 billion in tax revenue.
As I laid out in my written statement, we offer a wide variety
of assistance, and you can find more of that by following the link
to our annual report. However, I would like to focus on just a cou-
ple of things.
First, cybersecurity. SBDCs have a new cybersecurity program
based on DOD’s cybersecurity maturity model. It covers all facets
of the DOD guidance in order to provide security education for
small business owners.
We also have a new program, Secure Towns. Through it, SBDCs
work with chambers, development organizations, and local busi-
nesses to raise awareness and reduce cybersecurity threats.
Regarding the COVID pandemic response, over the last year we
have probably done close to 3 years’ worth of work. We have par-
ticipated in over 3,500 webinars and assisted over 315,000 people
in just the early months of the pandemic. As an example, the Penn-
sylvania SBDC launched nine new centers to provide services
aimed at weathering the pandemic.
We also assisted in provided helping get small businesses financ-
ing through PPP, EIDL, SVOG, and now the Restaurant Revital-
ization Fund. And as the demand surged, SBDC shifted on line,
which will continue to be a significant alternative. It improves our
productivity and allows broader use of specialized skills.
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And our client survey showed that the most requested program-
ming, ‘‘Finding New Customers,’’ is also the frequently most men-
tioned challenge. And they also want strategic planning and digital
marketing and social media and search engine optimization. In
other words, going forward we see small businesses as increasingly
reliant on technology. These changes may present a real challenge
to some communities with limited broadband access.
To overcome that, SBDCs are increasing our outreach. In Chi-
cago’s Southlands, the SBDC works with the Resurrection Project
and the Urban League to ensure that services reach all commu-
nities. Likewise, the Houston SBDC is teaming with the Great
Houston Black Chamber. They are creating a new business insti-
tute to improve access to capital and business growth. And to fur-
ther these efforts, the SBDCs have become the inclusivity challenge
based on the Northern California SBDC’s Inclusivity Project.
The challenge is simple: Do more. Based on local needs, SBDCs
will establish more connections and provide more services. It is all
about helping entrepreneurs, all entrepreneurs, overcome impedi-
ments to their success. That effort is complementary to the new
Community Navigators program. In fact, several SBDCs are al-
ready engaged in pilot programs for community navigators.
We would like to find the best ways to deliver services to all
small businesses and leverage all the capacity available. To that
end we strongly support reauthorization of the Entrepreneurial De-
velopment Programs. We think it is time to review and renew the
commitment to assisting small business.
Now I have got one last item and that is about the CARES Act
and the resource partner training platform. We would really like
to know what we should think of for its future.
That concludes my testimony. I look forward to any questions.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Mr. Rowe. Ms. Weston, you ware
now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF BRIDGET WESTON
Ms. WESTON. Thank you, Chairman Crow, Ranking Member
Kim, and members of the Committee. Thank you for the oppor-
tunity to offer testimony today.
SCORE is the nation’s largest network of volunteer business
mentors with more than 10,000 volunteers across 240 chapters, of-
fering free and confidential advices, and educational workshops to
small business owners. Founded in 1964 as a resource partner of
the SBC, SCORE has helped more than 11 million entrepreneurs
start, grow, or troubleshoot their business. Last year, SCORE
helped its clients to start over 45,000 new businesses and create
nearly 75,000 new jobs. And despite the challenging business cli-
mate of the pandemic, SCORE helped 82 percent of our clients stay
in business throughout the year.
We believe SCORE is the most effective, efficient business forma-
tion and job creation engine funded by the federal government. In
2020, our cost to create a new job was $156 and $259 to create a
new business. For every $1 appropriated to SCORE, our clients re-
turned $67 in new federal tax revenue, further demonstrating
SCORE is a good steward of the federal dollar.
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SCORE volunteers are the lifeblood of our organization and are
passionate about helping small businesses succeed. Volunteers
come from all across the country with diverse backgrounds and ex-
perience in different industries. Our core services are mentoring,
educational workshops, and online resources. Last year, SCORE
volunteers held over 315,000 mentoring sessions, guiding and sup-
porting our clients through the tremendous challenges brought on
by the pandemic. Many business owners told us they would not
have applied for a PPP, EIDL, or Restaurant Revitalization loan
without a SCORE mentor to walk them through the process. Our
high rates of client satisfaction are captured in our Net Promoter
Score of 87, which 70 being considered excellent.
In addition to mentoring, SCORE provides virtual webinars on
our website. And SCORE chapters offer local workshops that are
in-person or virtual. These workshops drew over 464,000 attendees
last year.
One of SCORE’s key areas of focus is fostering diversity, equity,
and inclusion for clients and volunteers. Women and minority vol-
unteers climbed to 38 percent of total volunteers last year. This 5
percent increase represents the single biggest annual growth since
we began tracking these metrics in 2012.
SCORE currently serves a diverse range of small business own-
ers. Sixty percent of our clients are women and 46 percent are mi-
norities. Earlier this year, SCORE launched the SCORE for Black
Entrepreneurs as part of our SCORE for All Initiative to help serve
disadvantaged businesses. We plan to add more SCORE for All
campaigns to help these businesses survive and thrive, supporting
women, rural entrepreneurs, veterans, the 50 and older commu-
nity, and persons with disabilities.
SCORE is working harder than ever to reach underserved entre-
preneurs, leveraging our community relationship nationally and lo-
cally. National partnerships include the BIPOC Support Founda-
tion, Women Entrepreneurs Grow Global, the National Black
Chambers, and the Latino Coalition, who introduce us to new com-
munities of small business owners. We also collaborate with our
fellow resource partners here today nationally and locally.
Across the nation SCORE chapters are integrated in their com-
munities, reaching, guiding, and providing access to necessary re-
sources. When the pandemic hit SCORE pivoted to delivering vir-
tual mentoring and education without missing a day of service. We
accommodated a 30 percent increase in services last year. And
while the House of Representatives supported additional funding
for SCORE’s COVID-19 response, ultimately SCORE did not re-
ceive any relief funding.
Nevertheless, we were able to stand up our Small Business Resil-
ience Program, connecting SCORE mentors and educational re-
sources to entrepreneurs to help them successfully navigate federal
and local government programs, adapt to change, launch new busi-
nesses and inspire their customers to rally around their business.
SCORE’s Small Business Resilience hub has served 730,000 people
since its launch in March 2020. Now we are at capacity and will
not be able to grow without additional resources.
Based on SCORE’s continued demonstrated impact, increased de-
mand for services, and our plans to reach more business owners in
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underserved and disadvantaged communities, SCORE is respect-
fully requesting an increase of 9-1/2 million in funding for a total
appropriation next year of 21.7 million. I want to thank the Chair-
man and Ranking Member for leading the joint letter in support
of robust funding for SCORE and thank all of the Members who
signed. The additional funding would be spent to increase men-
toring and education by reducing administrative burden on volun-
teers, provide more direct funding to local chapters for community
outreach, and focus to help more underserved businesses.
With this relatively small investment we can provide even great-
er value to business owners and the economy. This increased fund-
ing would allow us to deliver more than half a million additional
client services with a projected outcome of 100,000 additional new
businesses started or jobs created. SCORE’s mentoring and edu-
cation are critical to helping small businesses overcome their chal-
lenges and succeed. SCORE stands ready to help our nation’s most
vulnerable small business owners so they can keep their doors open
and keep people employed.
Thank you very much for your time. I look forward to your ques-
tions.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Ms. Weston. Ms. Hodges, you are
recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF CORINNE HODGES
Ms. HODGES. Thank you, Chair Crow, Ranking Member Kim,
and distinguished members of the Subcommittee. The Association
of Women’s Business Centers works to secure empowerment and
economic opportunities for women by supporting and sustaining the
national network of 135 Women’s Business Centers that provide
counseling, training, mentoring, business development, and access
to capital. And while all WBCs operate brick-and-mortar locations,
many have opened additional satellite locations, remote support, or
even mobile units to serve the hardest to reach entrepreneurs.
Women’s Business Centers are essential to this period of eco-
nomic recovery. And women entrepreneurs play a key role in our
nation’s economy, but, unfortunately, the pandemic has challenged
them disproportionately. Women are exiting the workforce to care
for families, particularly among low-income populations as well as
communities of color. Women seeking flexibility and necessary
household income turn to entrepreneurship.
For existing businesses the pandemic presented challenging cir-
cumstances since women are more likely to have service-based
businesses, such as childcare centers, salons, food services, et
cetera, where rates of closure reached as high as 40 percent. As a
result, an unprecedented number of women have found entrepre-
neurship at their local Women’s Business Center.
In 2020, Women’s Business centers had nearly 200,000 client en-
gagements and assisted clients in accessing $362 million in busi-
ness capital, more than double the previous year. They also helped
clients retain and create new jobs, nearly 70,000 nationwide. Not
only are WBCs seeing more small business clients, those clients are
returning for services at a higher rate, averaging 4 hours per cli-
ent.
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But we could not have accomplished all of this without the lead-
ership of this Committee, so allow me the opportunity to say thank
you to this group of members and their diligent staff. The addi-
tional Women’s Business Center funding and waiver of the match-
ing requirement allowed Women’s Business Centers the resources
and flexibility they needed to respond to these surges in demand
by hiring additional staff, providing essential counseling, and men-
toring to convey rapidly changing federal program and loan guid-
ance.
This year provides us a reminder of the importance of serving
underserved communities. In 2020, 70 percent of the individuals
Women’s Business Centers served were women and 56 percent
were people of color. And as detailed in my written testimony,
Women’s Business Centers and AWBC have led the way in reach-
ing BIPOC women business owners and we hope to share these
best practices.
Women’s Business Centers have a proven track record of pro-
ducing exceptional results with limited resources. While Women’s
Business Centers exceed their goals when it comes to client service
and performance, there are challenges faced within the technical-
ities of operating the program. And so for this reason, AWBC con-
tinues to advocate for reauthorization and modernization.
Regulatory and grant compliance inconsistencies and inefficien-
cies can create challenges for even the highest performing Women’s
Business Centers. The recent OIG report identified specific findings
that we see would be remedied by a modern redesign of the Wom-
en’s Business Center program. We urge Congress to establish a
structured accreditation program that ensures accountability to na-
tional standards for client service, including management and oper-
ational aspects. In addition, an increased individual grant level
would effectively allow centers to raise awareness for their services
and to reach deeper into marginalized and rural communities.
AWBC endorsed and fully supports the Women’s Business Cen-
ters Improvements Act from the 116th Congress. Had that legisla-
tion been enacted we believe Women’s Business Centers would
have been better positioned to respond to the pandemic. We urge
this bipartisan legislation be enacted swiftly.
Similarly, newer and smaller centers would stand to benefit from
additional oversight and guidance to achieve maximum results.
AWBC is exploring ways to support centers with greatest needs, in-
cluding the smallest and newest centers. We seek savings for tax-
payers using economies of scale for common purchases, like tech-
nology tools. We hope to work with this Committee to explore ways
to achieve those economies of scale and modernize the program.
We are proud of our partnership with SBA to ensure America’s
resource partners have the important information to support entre-
preneurs. We urge Congress to ensure the investment and the re-
source partners training portal continues beyond COVID. We ask
this Committee and the 117th Congress to take the following ac-
tions: fully fund the program at $30 million for core funding; pro-
vide additional $48 million for COVID-related appropriation; reau-
thorize the program similar to legislation, like H.R. 4405; and en-
sure WBCs are partners of choice for engaging women business
owners in any future jobs and infrastructure package.
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Thank you so much. I look forward to your questions.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Ms. Hodges. And Mr. Mont-
gomery, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF PATRICK MONTGOMERY
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Thank you, Chairman and members of the
Subcommittee. I am honored to have the opportunity to represent
the health and voice for small businesses across the nation. I con-
sider myself blessed to live in a country where I have the oppor-
tunity to address the leaders of my nation coming from my humble
beginnings. ‘‘That these dead shall not have died in vain. Govern-
ment of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish
from this earth.’’ Remembering the rangers who gave all so I can
sit here before you, I aim to give an honest representation of my
business and experiences for them.
According to the Kauffman Foundation, the number of adults
owning businesses have been declining since the 1990s. In a sepa-
rate study by the Brookings Institute, the number of startups has
fallen by half since 1978. These studies are troubling for America
remaining the leader of the free world. Entrepreneurship is directly
linked to job growth, wage growth, GDP, and innovation. Capital
and advice are the quintessential needs of a new idea embarking
on the journey to become a successful business.
My journey to entrepreneurship started during my last semester
of my undergrad at the University of Missouri at Columbia. I had
put the business plan for KC Cattle Company together and was
looking for a seed investment to get started once I graduated. I
cleared out my wife and I’s savings and contributed to the profit
we made from selling our home in Columbia.
I researched grants, government subsidized loans, and other gov-
ernment resources. I took advantage of using the University of Mis-
souri’s Extension program for advice and grant applications. I
spoke with the USDA and banks regarding USDA and SBA loans.
I was asking for $250,000 to make it through the first 3 years of
owning my business to establish a viable business model. I did not
have collateral or historic sales, so selling this to a lender proved
impossible. I ended up raising half this amount from friends and
family.
I boot-strapped those first 3 years and made the resources I had
work. I used my GI Bill to complete my MBA. The stipend from
the GI Bill was my salary for those first 2 years of owning my busi-
ness. We found success in our e-commerce business in 2019 and
continued thriving in 2020 despite huge restraints on our supply
chain from large processors throughout the country shutting down.
2021 is proving to present its own set of challenges with rising
costs across the board and constraints on the labor market. From
2017 through 2021, the government resources I used to help scale
my business was the SBDC’s ScaleUP! KC program, SBDC’s mar-
keting data resources, an SBA 7(a) line of credit, an SBA PPP loan,
my post 9/11 GI Bill, and the Missouri Extension program.
Specifically speaking about the SBDC, ScaleUP! KC was a great
resource for thinking through how I am going to scale my business.
Developing processes, thinking about our operating environment,
and implementing the Entrepreneurial Operating System were
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some of my key takeaways. While completing this, I discovered I
could use the SBDC for gaining specific insights into our target de-
mographic by using information from our email list. I was I the
process of paying a marketing firm $8,000 to do this for us. The
SBDC did it for free, which allowed us to free up that cash to be
able to hire new employees during the height of the pandemic.
The resources I used from the government were essential to cre-
ating a successful business. As stated before, capital and advice are
the lifeblood for startups. Without the resources stated above, I
would have never been able to get to where we are as a company.
However, these resources are not very easy to find as a small
business and not easily accessible those first few years of trying to
create a viable business model, specifically at the capital side. A
few ideas I had while thinking through my talking points for this
discussion.
One, when filling out a new corporation with the state, what if
the entity received information about available resources along
with their formation documents from the state and IRS?
Secondly, although the SBA has some great lending options, all
of them are for established businesses. What if there was a pro-
gram specifically for startups trying to breathe life into a new idea?
This lending option could be paired with advisors from the SBDC
to help work through the problems associated with a startup and
help the individual network their new businesses. Startups are
risky, but I would argue these loans could be a better investment
for the government and the individual than student loans. We need
individuals to have the means to pursue good ideas in this country.
In conclusion, I believe the resources available from the SBA and
affiliate partners are crucial for new businesses to succeed. How-
ever, I think these resources are not always easy to find or easy
to access when starting a new company. Making resources, both
capital and knowledge, available to aspiring entrepreneurs is crit-
ical to the United States remaining the gold standard for innova-
tion and envy throughout the world.
Thank you for this opportunity to speak with you. And I look for-
ward to your questions.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Mr. Montgomery. And thank you
to all the witnesses for everything you shared with us. I appreciate
many of the comments and observations.
I am going to begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes. And Mr.
Rowe, I want to start with you.
You had mentioned cybersecurity as a really essential element
here and the cybersecurity maturity model. I represent a state and
district that has one of the largest defense aviation and aerospace
industries in the country. In fact, I have over 250 primary small-
and medium-sized businesses that serve within that industry, and
cybersecurity is a huge issue. And, you know, our adversaries
looked to target now our supply chain in those small- and medium-
sized businesses that oftentimes do not have the resources to ade-
quately bolster their cyber defenses. So, I am particularly inter-
ested in how we can assist with that process.
Yet, at the same time, many of those businesses in the industry
have told me, you know, expressed concern about the maturity
model and reluctance to a one-size-fits-all approach because small-
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er companies, 10-, 15-employee companies, don’t have the resources
to necessarily comply with that.
So, with that lead-in, could you just describe for me the tension
there between adequately rolling out that model and those re-
sources? And how do we adequately address the issue that smaller
businesses may not have the resources, but, at the same time, they
are primary targets as well and they need to be secured?
Mr. ROWE. You are absolutely right, Mr. Crow, that those folks
further down in the supply chain are a prime target. At the same
time, they don’t have, you know, a chief information security officer
and all of those extra employees that they might need.
So, what we focused on with the cybersecurity maturity model is
getting more small businesses to what they call level one. They
may not be certified yet, but we are getting them the very basics.
But we are also working with sponsors to have the opportunity to
give them more information, to get them, you know, a firewall or
whatever they might need.
And that goes along with what we are doing with Secure Towns.
Now, we have just started this in Culpeper, Virginia, but we would
like to expand it to other towns and cities where it has to become,
you know, a global approach.
I have got an example. You know, I had a court date cancel be-
cause the courthouse got hacked, ransomwared [sic]. It is not just
businesses. It is our city governments, it is our courthouses, it is
everywhere. And where we are trying to go is giving them the most
information they can handle at the time to get them at that first
level. And where they have to go from there, it has been a process
working with DOD and all the other agencies.
Chairman CROW. Okay, thank you, Mr. Rowe.
Ms. Weston, I would like to talk about a bill that Mr. Balderson
from Ohio, who was the Ranking Member on this Committee last
Congress, we have a bill called the Next Generation Entrepreneur-
ship Core Act, which I am sure you are aware of. And really what
we aim to do is help catalyze entrepreneurship, particularly in un-
derserved communities with wraparound services, a fellowship pro-
gram, you know, 320-plus fellows a year to provide mentorship, off-
set costs, and really help lift up those entrepreneurs by reducing
barriers that they face, particularly in the areas where they face
more barriers than other entrepreneurs.
So, I would just like to have your thoughts on the impact of a
bill like that or an effort like that, that recognizes that not all com-
munities face the same barriers to entrepreneurship, and yet there
is great value in making some targeted investments within those
communities to unleash innovation.
Ms. WESTON. Thank you so much for the question. And SCORE
is a strong supporter of the Next Generation Entrepreneurship bill.
We know that disadvantaged and underserved communities have
unique needs and unique challenges. And one of the things that we
believe is by creating equity-based programming that brings train-
ing and mentorship focused on those needs will help elevate and
reduce barriers. And when we see more success with those entre-
preneurs who have the drive, have the desire, but have a lot of
hurdles in their way, we know that the mentorship and the train-
ing will help them overcome. And this bill, the training will then
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be available for other entrepreneurs. They will see these successes.
They will be able to take advantage of the training and the re-
source partners.
And as we heard, awareness is a key problem. Once we can get
access to these entrepreneurs to help them learn about the myriad
of resources available they are more likely to succeed.
So, we are very excited about the bill and hope that it passes.
Chairman CROW. Thank you. And then I will add that it is not
just bipartisan in the House, but we also have Senator Coons and
Senator Scott in the Senate that are championing it in a bipartisan
way on the other side of the Capitol as well. So, thank you.
My time is done, so I would like to now recognize Ms. Kim, the
Ranking Member, for 5 minutes.
Ms. YOUNG KIM. Thank you, Chairman. So, thank you so much
for all your testimonies.
And so we heard that small businesses are unaware of these
wonderful programs that are out there. So, what steps have you
taken during the pandemic, especially during the pandemic, to help
small businesses find your organization? And additionally, who will
your organization change and adapt to assist small businesses as
they continue to recover? This to all of you.
Mr. ROWE. Well, with the CARES Act funding is actually the
first time that an SBDC was allowed to use some of the funds for
marketing. So, our folks had been reaching out usually through so-
cial media because it is actually the most cost-effective. But that
has been a huge problem all along as we were literally prohibited
from marketing our services by the SBA. I guess the pandemic
changed some minds. And so that is where we have gone.
We also partner with companies like Google and Microsoft and
Thrive to use their resources to get the word out. We had a resil-
iency guide that we worked on with Google and, you know, ex-
panded our reach through that.
Ms. YOUNG KIM. Okay.
Ms. WESTON. With SCORE, one of the things we focus on is
what our clients and others small business centers are saying that
they need help with. And so the content that we create and share
with our local chapters is also online and, of course, SEO, search
engine optimization, is a key way that people are finding our con-
tent, finding it valuable, and then pairing it with a mentor or a
workshop.
Our local and national partnerships are another key area. By
reaching new markets, like not just the partners I spoke about, but
other corporate partners, they can amplify the message that
SCORE and our other resource partners are here. I do believe that
the SBA is a valued partner in helping to get the word out and I
think there are things we can do to improve that because we know
and we heard from the Chairman’s testimony that when people are
paired with SCORE or SBDCs or Women’s Business Centers, the
businesses are more likely to be successful.
Ms. HODGES. If I could also just add partnership with con-
stituent offices has been a really valuable way to direct traffic. So,
when small businesses are asking who can help us and you send
them to any of us, they can locate a center. That has proven to be
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a huge, I think, source of where a lot of our growth came from,
from the Women’s Business Center side.
There is truly still a problem, though, with the awareness among
the communities. I saw a survey from a couple of years ago, still
more than 80, 85 percent of women business owners in our case
know about a Women’s Business Center. And similar numbers in
our poll related back to SBDCs and SCORE as well.
So, we do have to still continue to push the word, but there are
limitations with the funding that has to be applied toward pro-
gramming versus some of that kind of paid-for advertising.
Ms. YOUNG KIM. Sure. I mean, we do know that there are great
programs, but many people are having difficulty finding those pro-
grams. So, let me direct this question to Mr. Montgomery.
In your testimony you mentioned that SBA’s resources are not al-
ways easy to find or easy to access when starting a new company.
So, do you think entrepreneurs would benefit from more stream-
lined resources? Are four separate SBA resource partners duplica-
tive?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I wouldn’t say they are duplicate at all. I
just think they are tough to find, you know. Regarding the SBDCs
specifically, we actually had a representative reach out to me about
that specific program. And once I was able to, you know, partici-
pate in the program, I found all these additional resources that I
had no idea existed.
So, you know, I think probably one of the main touching points
is normally a bank that you are trying to go through for an SBA
loan, so, you know, maybe there is some kind of synergy there for
marketing for these other free programs.
Ms. YOUNG KIM. Thank you. Let me direct my last question to
Ms. Weston.
You know, we talked about in my opening statement the SBA’s
Office of Inspector General releasing the audit. And that was an
oversight of your SCORE association and found that the program
officials did not properly oversee SCORE’s use of federal funds.
And then you also talked about that you did not get any additional
funding. So, can you provide an update on the corrective actions
that are being implemented by your organization?
Ms. WESTON. Absolutely. I appreciate the question. The Office
of Inspector General’s report was released in April of 2019, and it
was on fiscal year 2017 and the first quarter of 2018. Two months
after that report, there was a leadership change at the organization
and less than a month after that we put together a comprehensive
plan to address all of the findings in the OIG report. Less than a
year later, every finding was closed.
SCORE has a culture of compliance. We have centralized our ac-
counting, so that every chapter dollar that is spent we can recog-
nize and share with the SBA whether it was restricted or unre-
stricted. We have brought on a compliance manager to ensure that
we are following all the processes and procedures related to our
terms and conditions in the CFR 200. Our procurement processes
have been strengthened. And in cooperation with the SBA, we are
following what they have suggested, our board of directors has sep-
arated the association and the foundation. Our compensation policy
has been enhanced in terms of salary data, limiting performance
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pay. And our whistleblower policy has been updated and every vol-
unteer sees it every year by taking a required code of ethics.
Ms. YOUNG KIM. Thank you. They say that our time is over,
so I yield back.
Chairman CROW. Thank you. The gentlewoman yields back.
Now I will recognize the gentlewoman from Kansas, Ms. Davids,
also the Chairwoman of the Subcommittee on Economic Growth,
Tax, and Capital Access, for 5 minutes.
Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you, Chairman. You know, our SBA re-
source partners have served a really invaluable role during this
pandemic and that includes providing guidance and assistance to
small businesses on some of the SBA relief programs that we have
talked about today. You know, the resource partners in the Kansas
Third have helped a lot of businesses, countless businesses, navi-
gate the federal programs that exist and help access the resources
available to them. And, you know, I think while we heard about
some of this already, but, you know, when we are talking about the
Women’s Business Center increasing its reach by like 22 percent,
we know that these things are really, really important.
So, I want to start, Mr. Rowe, how can we learn lessons from this
pandemic and further empower our resource partners in the long
term? And, you know, that could be challenges and also opportuni-
ties.
Mr. ROWE. I think the—and I am as bad with this as I am on
a Zoom call. I think the biggest thing we have learned is that we
can get a lot more mileage out of being online. But we also have
to be really careful not to isolate ourselves. And we do spend an
inordinate amount of time collaborating, whether it is with
SCORE, Women’s Business Centers, or with the Procurement Tech-
nical Assistance Centers. And for us the big thing is how do we
break down the silos to make sure that all of the information and
all of our capability and capacity is getting out to the community?
I know we did, you know, gobs of town halls with Members like
yourself. We can always do more. I think it would be great if every
Member’s website had a small business assistance banner on it
where they could link to our services. I think we have learned a
lot that sometimes folks just can’t see because we are not raising
our hands.
Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I kind of want
to—another piece of this is the Women’s Business Centers and I
know that, Ms. Hodges, you mentioned this in your testimony that
reauthorizing the Women’s Business Center program is, of course,
really important. I know I was proud to introduce the Women’s
Business Center Improvement Act. It passed the House in 2019. I
intend to reintroduce that piece of legislation later this year.
But, you know, can you elaborate a bit on how the Improvement
Act might either have better helped you respond to the pandemic,
which I think you mentioned, but also just kind of moving forward
how that is going to help us get on the other side of this economic
crisis?
Ms. HODGES. Gladly. Thank you, Representative Davids. Clear-
ly, had we addressed the modernization prior to the pandemic, we
would not have been still strapped with the $150,000 grant cap
that we had 30 years ago when the program was initially intro-
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duced. And so we were in a position with the CARES Act funding,
gratefully, to be able to scale up, but we were so far behind. And
now as we see the CARES Act funding coming to fruition, we are
at a position—we will be in a position to now have to scale back.
And so just when the economy is now recovering, we have a tre-
mendous opportunity to take a really strong look at the program.
Everything that was in the bill that you introduced and passed was
great and was a move in the right direction in terms of increasing
the grant cap, introducing accreditation and standards of quality.
But the reality is none of those things have been able to be en-
acted, and so we are back at square one, basically 30 years ago,
and still trying to run a modern program serving modern techno-
logical challenges, like the Chairman mentioned with cybersecurity,
problems that were never envisioned when the program was ini-
tially thought of and piloted. And so we really just need to take a
modern look at what services we know that women and particu-
larly marginalized communities need to receive.
Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you. I have one quick question for Mr.
Montgomery. This weekend I am having a cookout. Should I get
the ribeye or the strip steak?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I am a ribeye guy all day long.
Ms. DAVIDS. Okay, very good. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair-
man. I yield back.
Chairman CROW. Thank you. The gentlewoman yields back. And
now I would like to recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Wil-
liams, the Vice Ranking Member of the Committee. And I don’t al-
ways root for the Atlanta Braves, but when I do it is because of
you, Roger.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Chairman CROW. The gentleman is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In April 29th, we
talked about the Inspector General releasing an audit of the
SCORE association showing some abuses in taxpayer dollars. You
have addressed that a little bit today. But it was over 700,000 in
federal grants were used for excessive staff bonuses, unallowable
contracts, it even covered the cost of alcohol. And these findings
were extremely troubling to a lot of us and should make us as law-
makers consider SCORE’s ability to continue to receive federal
funding unless these changes are made.
I guess the question I would have is, were these accusations
true?
Ms. WESTON. There were some instances where we did not fol-
low proper procedures in terms of contract documentation, proper
bidding, and we did not have a formal compensation policy that
limited fair pay across all of the staff in the organization. We now
have a compliance manager, we have a procurement policy, we
have a compensation policy, and those have been addressed now for
over a year.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Okay. The people that caused the problem, are
they still there? And how are they going to change their ways?
Ms. WESTON. They are not.
Mr. WILLIAMS. They are gone, right? Another question I have
is you talked about—I am a small business owner. I own car deal-
erships back in Texas and 51 years, so main street is important to
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me and I appreciate what you are doing. But when we talk about
tax increases, which is happening now, how is that going to affect
your small businesses?
Ms. WESTON. Well, I believe that SCORE and our other re-
source partners are here to help small businesses navigate no mat-
ter what challenges and hurdles are put in front of them.
Mr. WILLIAMS. But it is going to hurt them, isn’t it?
Ms. WESTON. I cannot speak to——
Mr. WILLIAMS. If you pay more taxes, you pay more taxes.
Ms. WESTON. What we know is that regardless of the hurdles
thrown in front of small businesses, we will be able to help them
navigate and figure out ways to overcome.
Mr. WILLIAMS. To overcome paying more taxes.
Ms. WESTON. To overcome the challenges for any small busi-
ness owner.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Okay. All right. Mr. Rowe, in your testimony
you discussed Small Business Development Centers’ inability to
serve all counties. As someone who represents some very rural
areas of Texas, I have seen unique challenges facing people who
choose not to live in populated cities. Whenever you are dealing
with federal programs I am concerned that a majority of funding
and focus is being used in major metropolitan or urban areas.
So, my question is, how is the SBDCs currently making sure that
programs are beneficial to all Americans, no matter where they de-
cide to open their business?
Mr. ROWE. Well, just for instance, in Texas, A, if you look at my
written testimony, for years the UTSA, South-West Texas Border
Region SBDC has been hosting the Texas State Rural Business
Conference. So, as a result, I continue to get emails from your col-
league, Sid Miller.
And that is a very real effort by us to share information with eco-
nomic development organizations throughout the state of Texas.
We have similar efforts, whether it is, you know, Wyoming, Mon-
tana, all of the states where we are dealing with significant rural
areas. And frankly, in our network that is every place but the Dis-
trict of Columbia.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Okay. All right. Having access to capital and a
strong business plan are critical components of any entrepreneur
looking to take a chance and start a new career. The SBA has re-
sources available to try to help these individuals, but they are often
unknown to people, and we talked about that today, who are just
starting out or they are difficult to navigate.
So, Mr. Montgomery, I am familiar with your industry, also. I
run a few head back in Texas. And as someone who benefited from
the SBDC assistance, what recommendations can you give the SBA
partners to improve outreach to aspiring entrepreneurs? Because
you are a great example.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Just like you were saying, Representative,
during that initial time period, especially when you are making
your business plan and you are searching for capital, you know,
that capital is incredibly important to kind of get your start, you
are having a lot of conversations with banks specifically. You know,
for me it was the USDA, looking at some of those subsidized loans.
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So, I think there is a touch point there for banks to be able to
educate folks about these additional resources that are available,
especially SCORE. I didn’t even know that existed and what a
great opportunity to kind of have an advisor when you are initially
trying to avoid making what I like to call tuition payments.
In addition to that, social media and also what I was mentioning.
I mean, you have to get those formation documents from the gov-
ernment, so maybe an additional pamphlet with some of those free
resources I think would be crucial.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Okay. Well, you got a great story. We appreciate
all of you being here today. I yield my time back.
Chairman CROW. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. I
would now like to recognize the gentlewoman from Illinois, Ms.
Newman, for 5 minutes.
Ms. NEWMAN. Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Ranking
Member. And thank you to all of our great guests today. Wonderful
comments and my sincere hope is that those pieces of legislation
that were offered in the 116th pass in the 117th.
And I also want to thank, special thanks to the Women’s Busi-
ness Centers for helping get my amendment passed to extend the
waiver. So, bravo on all of you.
I do have a couple of questions. The first one is directed to our
friends at WBC and perhaps Ms. Hodges could answer. One of the
huge issues as we head into a better economy and a healthy Amer-
ica is that women, as you cited, women have been inordinately dra-
matically lopsidedly affected by the pandemic and their ability to
stay in their jobs, mostly due to childcare. Similarly, they are now
wanting to start businesses in their homes because they have to be
home with their kids.
So, with that, what are your recommendations? And is there any-
thing we can do as a Committee or a Congress to supplement your
efforts to help all of these women entrepreneurs?
Ms. HODGES. Thank you for all of your work and for the ques-
tion, Representative Newman. I think there are a lot of things that
we can do to enhance the capacity of the Women’s Business Cen-
ters to serve more. Thanks to the pandemic, we have experienced
what being at capacity is like.
There are, in some cases, Women’s Business Centers that a
woman who is interested in startup, and I would echo everything
you have stated, the startup requests are the greatest need at the
present moment. Those are very high, intense, resource-intense
types of counseling requirements and training requirements. And
we are at capacity. If you had an idea to start a business and called
a Women’s Business Center, you may have to wait weeks to get an
appointment because there is just not available staff or time at
even as many hours as they are working in a day.
And so I would tell you, I think the single greatest thing we can
do is just to increase the capacity of those who are proven to help
women succeed regardless of what their goals are, whether it is to
work in the home or elsewhere.
Ms. NEWMAN. Thank you so much. And I yield back.
Chairman CROW. The gentlewoman yields back. I will now rec-
ognize the gentlewoman from New York, Ms. Tenney, for 5 min-
utes.
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Ms. TENNEY. Thank you, Ranking Member, and also the Chair-
man. I am so grateful for you to put this Committee together.
I am a small business owner as well and I have just a few ques-
tions about some of our Small Business Development Centers. My
son is also a captain in the Marine Corps and he also deals with
issues with some of his command and people that are leaving the
Marine Corps and getting their assistance. But you were talking
about different—and I am addressing this Mr. Rowe. You men-
tioned in your testimony that there are specialized programs in
several states to assist veterans with pre and post deployment. Vet-
erans, you know, base their—you know, I am just curious in your
work with veterans, I would be curious to hear your viewpoint, and
I know my son has his own, but what do you think are some of
the biggest obstacles in veterans accessing some of these SBA pro-
grams when they first come out? Because I know that has been an
issue that has been raised by a number of people, a number of vet-
erans in my community.
Mr. ROWE. Well, one of the concerns, one of the problems is
making sure that we are not siloing off our resources. We have got
Veterans Business Ownership Centers working and lot of them go
on base. SBDCs used to do this as well offering transition assist-
ance.
Ms. TENNEY. Okay.
Mr. ROWE. And we sort of got slid out of that. But really it is
just talking between organizations to make sure that the services
are there. I know, for example, our network in South Carolina has
a great relationship with the Marine Corps and has worked there
regularly over the years providing transition assistance.
Some of it is on us. If we offer someone assistance while they are
mustering out and then, you know, they go from, say, South Caro-
lina and they go home to wherever that is, we need to do a better
job of making them aware that there can be a continuum of that
assistance. They can go from the South Carolina SBDC to the
Texas SBDC and continue getting that assistance, get all the infor-
mation they need to keep moving on.
Ms. TENNEY. If you could pick one, Mr. Rowe, if you could pick
one policy that you would like to change by SBA to make it better
and more accessible to veterans what would it be?
Mr. ROWE. I think probably one of the greatest things would be
allowing SBDCs to operate and compete for the Veterans Business
Ownership Center program offices. We could vastly expand things.
It has been a little bit siloed.
Ms. TENNEY. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I just
have a quick question for Ms. Weston. I don’t see my timer on
there, but you stated SCORE respectfully requests an increase of
9.5 million in funding for fiscal year 2022 for a total amount of the
appropriation being 21.7 million. Should the SBA recover the
713,000 and change of unallowable and unsupported costs as rec-
ommended by the SBA’s Office of Inspector General prior to new
funding?
Ms. WESTON. Thank you for that question. We have already
paid back the amount of funding that was required from the SBA.
After more work with the SBA and the OIG report, we were able
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to provide more documentation on the allowability of contracts and
we only had to pay back half of that 713,000. It is all paid back.
Ms. TENNEY. That is fantastic. I wanted to hear that. Great to
hear that and would like to address my next question to Ms.
Hodges.
I am a woman-owned business. My family business has been
around since 1946. Eight out of 10 of our shareholders are women-
owned, but, unfortunately, we can’t get a woman-owned designa-
tion in New York. But I am concerned about, you know, how we
continue to outreach to women. I know there is a lot of women
mentors and leaders, but what do you recommend, you know, in
terms of especially in the lending space?
There are a lot of issues with women being able to access money
and loans to get their business underway. I am working with a
number of women now who have got fantastic business plans and
we are struggling to get lenders to really push to get them the
money they need. What type of outreach would you do to close this
gap? And what do you recommend? If you could just pick one thing
because I know my time is short.
Ms. HODGES. If I just had to pick one thing it would be to be
able to put money into the marketing. We just don’t have the
money to put into marketing and without dollars it is really dif-
ficult to people who don’t know that you are trying to reach them.
So, whether that is radio or billboards or other paid advertising,
definitely there. But access to capital, you are right, is the number
one barrier.
Ms. TENNEY. Thank you. I appreciate that because it definitely
is a marketing issue. We try to mentor as many women as we can
and it is a—got great business plans, we just need the lenders to
let that money flow to them so they can create and produce jobs.
Thanks so much. I appreciate everyone. And I yield my time
back.
Chairman CROW. Thank you. The gentlewoman yields back. I
will now recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr. Garbarino,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. GARBARINO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And
thank you to all the witnesses that are here today. It has been
great testimony so far.
My first question is for Mr. Montgomery. Small business owners
have expressed concerns regarding the proposed tax increases, reg-
ulations, inflation, labor shortages. What do you see as your biggest
barrier to growing your business?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right now it is inflation hands down. I
mean, we have seen cost increases across the board on our cost of
goods just within the first 3 months of this year. And we expect to
see some more in the upcoming months, which is—it is scary, so
we are starting to kind of plan around that for probably the next
year here.
Mr. GARBARINO. How do you plan around that? Do you have
to raise your own prices or how are you planning to address that?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yeah, I mean, we—yes, sir. So, we have
done four price increases in the last year. Processing started going
up last year with the constraints on that market. I think we are
probably at the top of the consumer surplus of what, you know,
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customers are willing to pay for our product. So, now we have to
kind of think smarter and probably less money in marketing and
just to offset that cost to make sure that we are not losing money
this year.
Mr. GARBARINO. Okay. And as a small business, you know, it
fluctuates, right? Some years you do well, some years you don’t do
well. So, if you have a profitable year, do you have to, you know,
make those profits last several years in case there is a loss? You
know, you are not guaranteed a profit every year, correct?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. That is definitely correct, especially being
a startup, you know.
Mr. GARBARINO. Okay. No, I appreciate that and I appreciate
you addressing the inflation issue. We have been hearing that a lot
from a lot of different people.
I have another question. This is for pretty much any of the wit-
nesses, whoever wants to jump in. According to the NFIB April
jobs report, small business owners are experiencing the highest
ever readings of unfilled job openings since the polling started in
1973. What can BBOCs, SBDC, WBCs, and SCORE mentors do to
help small businesses find employees?
Ms. WESTON. Well, I will start. One of the things that I believe
all of our resource partners do is really understand what the spe-
cific needs of the business are. We have seen since all of 2017 from
a SCORE Megaphone of main street report that it was becoming
more challenging to hire workers because of various trends, the gig
economy being one of them, childcare needs being another. And
what we are able to do is sit there and look at the resources and
limitations for every small business owner and help them decide is
a full-time employee best, a part-time employee, contractors. And
make sure it makes sense for them while still working towards
that goal of being profitable and maintaining profitability.
Mr. GARBARINO. Anyone else? All right. I appreciate——
Mr. ROWE. I think——
Mr. GARBARINO. Oh, sorry, please.
Mr. ROWE. Sorry, sir. I just had a quick thought on it. I think
one of the big things we work on at SBDCs is—and, for example,
some of our SBDCs colocate with the Workforce Development
Boards, is trying to understand the changes in the labor market.
You know, the pandemic has affected so much behavior that it has
almost become a marketing tool sometimes for a small business to
say, hey, we have got a safe, serious workplace and we need help.
So that is just one of the things we are trying to accomplish.
Mr. GARBARINO. I appreciate that. And actually back to Mr.
Montgomery. What is the labor situation with your small business?
Inflation we said is number one, but are you having any trouble
filling spots?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. We are. So, we just came out of our slow
season and seasonality is our business, so we are just now starting
to try to hire some part-time folks. Going into grilling season here.
We did a $3 across the board increase on our hourly wage, going
from 12 to a minimum of $15 an hour, going up to 18 based on ex-
perience, and we are still not getting applicants. So, it is a problem
we are working right now and I don’t think I have a good solution
yet, so.
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Mr. GARBARINO. No, I appreciate that and I hope you are able
to fill those slots so you can remain to be profitable. But that is
it with all the questions I have. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I
yield back.
Chairman CROW. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. I will
now recognize the gentlewoman from Georgia, Ms. Bourdeaux, for
5 minutes.
Ms. BOURDEAUX. Thank you, Chairman Crow and Ranking
Member Kim. The SBA’s resource partners provide entrepreneurs
with some wonderful resources and really advanced this Commit-
tee’s shared interest in promoting entrepreneurship and small busi-
ness growth. My office worked closely with our local Small Busi-
ness Development Centers and have greatly appreciated their ef-
forts during the pandemic.
Just a follow-up question, though, on that for Mr. Rowe. One of
the questions we received from our Small Business Development
Center and we are interested in what your answer might be, is
that given how the pandemic has really increased the SBDC’s pro-
file in our community, they are concerned about what is going to
happen after the pandemic when all of a sudden they are very,
very well-known for this great assistance that they have provided?
And wanted to get your thoughts about what resources might be
needed going forward.
Mr. ROWE. Thank you, ma’am. Appreciate the question. What
we are looking for, and I appreciate the many Members who co-
signed the letter that Congressman Larson and Mr. Balderson and
Congressman Young initiated, we are looking for an appropriation
of $150 million. What that would do is essentially help us not fall
off a resource cliff, if you will. We have our regular appropriation
and then the very generous additional appropriation under the
CARES Act. We have beefed up staff and resources and we want
to be able to maintain those resources because, frankly, we don’t
see a diminishing amount of demand. Like the Women’s Business
Centers, very often we are having to, you know, schedule people
several weeks out because there is just so many hours in a day.
Ms. BOURDEAUX. Okay. In your testimony, well, another issue
we have is we have a diverse community in the Seventh District.
About 25 percent of the people in my district were born outside of
this country. And so we are very, very interested in the Community
Navigator program and really working on building our capacity to
reach out to these diverse communities, many of whom are very en-
trepreneurial, they have got small businesses, but they may speak
a different language. There may be all sorts of different barriers.
In your testimony you mentioned that several SBDCs have al-
ready engaged in pilot programs for the Community Navigator pro-
gram. And I was just curious how those efforts are going. Do you
see a use for the Community Navigator model at SBA in reaching
small businesses in underserved communities, like the ones I am
talking about in my district, beyond the pandemic?
Mr. ROWE. Well, I think there is obviously a need. That is why
we are working on our own on the inclusivity challenge. The simple
fact is there are 30 million small businesses and I don’t know how
many aspiring entrepreneurs in this country. And it is going to
take a massive effort for us to make sure we are hitting everyone.
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Community Navigators is a great start. We work hard to find the
associations and the organizations that we can work with to get out
to those communities. And it is a constant effort.
Ms. BOURDEAUX. Do any of the other panelists have any
thoughts on this? I saw you, Ms. Hodges, nodding on that.
Ms. HODGES. Thank you, Representative Bourdeaux. So many
fond thoughts of Georgia. I spent many years there and we have
a very strong Women’s Business Center presence in Georgia and a
new one that opened in Savannah. And I think about how the
Community Navigator program can complement and can also chal-
lenge as we think about our program.
We know that the Community Navigator challenge has a tremen-
dous funding instrument attached, $100 million. And really, how
can you put a price tag on the health of small business in our econ-
omy?
However, our experience in working with the Small Business Of-
fice of Entrepreneurial Development is that they are themselves
somewhat taxed in terms of levels of staff and resources. It is not
their fault. This is a situation not by their making or their design.
And so, in some ways, we find it can be somewhat of a competi-
tion for resources, for attention to do the things that, quite frankly,
Women’s Business Centers have been doing for three decades and
have been doing extremely well with many fewer resources. If you
compare the $30 million ask of Women’s Business Centers with
$100 million ask of a brand-new, never tested Community Navi-
gator program, one can ask a lot of questions.
That being said, we embrace every opportunity to partner. We
canvass every community for every asset, for every opportunity to
reach into those communities and serve. And so as soon as the
Community Navigator program officially launches, we will embrace
it and we will make the most of it as we do every dollar and every
resource we have ever gotten.
Ms. BOURDEAUX. Good. Thank you so much. And I yield back.
Chairman CROW. Thank you. The gentlewoman yields back. I
will now recognize the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Phillips,
Chairman of the Subcommittee on Oversight Investigations and
Regulations, for 5 minutes.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to our
witnesses today.
Mr. Montgomery, I would like to start with you. I celebrate your
story and am particularly intrigued by your testimony regarding a
lack of lending options available for startups and new businesses
compared to the SBA programs that exist that seems to be more
focused on existing businesses or incumbent businesses, as politi-
cians would probably prefer to say.
I have authored legislation myself, called the New Business Pres-
ervation Act, that would enable states to set up pools of capital
alongside private investors and venture capital to support scalable
high-growth companies headquartered particularly in America’s
heartland.
So, if you would take a moment and provide some more detail
on your proposal to increase financial support for individuals pur-
suing new business ideas and how a program like the New Busi-
ness Preservation Act might play a role in addressing this gap.
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Mr. MONTGOMERY. Thank you, Representative Phillips. I ap-
preciate the question.
First, I will kid of start with my experience. Like I was referring
to in my testimony, you know, we are asking for a quarter-million
to kind of make it through those first 3 years of creating a viable
business. Obviously, it proved almost impossible. I think the USDA
subsidized loans through the FSA office. They offered me 16,000,
which was kind of enough to drown myself without actually suc-
ceeding.
So, I think what you are proposing is exactly what I am thinking.
There needs to be capital for people with good ideas, that have a
solid business model. Because there is definitely plenty of advice
out there for aspiring entrepreneurs, but the capital is not always
as easy to come by. And I think that is imperative because you
need both those things to get off the ground.
Mr. PHILLIPS. All right. I appreciate that. And thank you once
again.
Mr. Rowe, in your testimony you mentioned that the SBDC ac-
creditation process is built on the Baldrige standards. I have devel-
oped another bill that is called the Honest Enterprise Act that
would use the same framework to encourage and reward companies
for excellence in creating inclusive workplaces. And I think this
kind of stakeholder capitalism has to be baked into businesses at
the earliest stages.
So, what kind of counsel might you provide, if any, that might
encourage prospective business owners to consider more than just
their profits and the management and benefits of their employees
and their communities and the role that they can play in protecting
the environment? How can we provide those incentives?
Mr. ROWE. Well, I think the first thing is providing incentives.
I think it is great to want people to conserve energy, let us say,
and have a green workplace. To offer them a tax credit is even bet-
ter.
I think as far as the workplace ethos goes, one of the things we
work on at SBDCs is succession planning. We have done a lot of
it, particularly in the state of New York, implementing Senator
Gillibrand’s bill. And that was really how do we take a current
business model and help plant it into an employee-owned model?
And that, for us, has provided a lot of ways to take both senior en-
trepreneurs and bring younger businesspeople into the marketplace
and sort of open that up.
Now, just quick to go back to your question of Mr. Montgomery,
one of things we could think about is steering the funds in the
SSBCI program towards startup entrepreneurs. That is up to every
individual state on how they use those funds, but very often they
are tending to a venture model that really is geared toward estab-
lished businesses.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Great. I have to say, your remarks about employ-
ees’ ESOPs, Employee Stock Ownership Programs, and how we
might use thoughtful policy to not just encourage, but provide in-
centives for businesses of all sizes. To do so is, I think, a grand op-
portunity for those of us who believe in compassionate capitalism.
I see my time has, unfortunately, expired, but thanks again for
our witnesses. And I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
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Chairman CROW. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. No
other members?
Okay. It looks like we have no other members with questions
right now, so I want to thank again all of our witnesses for partici-
pating today. Thank you and your organization staff for your ef-
forts in preparing for the testimony and for your work during the
pandemic and economic downturn.
And I want to thank in particular Mr. Montgomery for your time
because I know as a business owner and somebody who is dealing
with a lot of challenges, your time is extremely valuable, so taking
time to share your insights has been very useful to us.
And at the beginning of the testimony you said you endeavor to
keep faith with our fellow rangers by giving earnest and honest
and good testimony, and I will say that you accomplished that mis-
sion. So, we thank you very much for your time.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Thank you, Chairman.
Chairman CROW. So, with that, you know, we have identified a
number of issues that I think falls within the purview of this Com-
mittee and Congress. This Committee has a long history of working
bipartisan, in a bipartisan fashion to find practical and pragmatic
solutions to these issues. You have identified a number of things
and areas of improvement for us to continue to work on. And we
appreciate that very much. I look forward to working with all of my
colleagues to find those solutions and to make sure that we are ful-
filling what is our unified and joint mission, and that is supporting
our small businesses around the country to grow our economy, to
grow jobs, and to achieve the American dream.
So, I would ask unanimous consent that members have 5 legisla-
tive days to submit statements and supporting materials for the
record. Without objection, so ordered.
And if there is no further business to come before the Committee,
we are adjourned today.
[Whereupon, at 11:36 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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APPENDIX
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VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00055 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
52
SBD026 with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 97 here 44566.027
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00056 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
53
SBD026 with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 98 here 44566.028
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00057 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
54
SBD026 with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 99 here 44566.029
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00058 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
55
Insert offset folio 100 here 44566.030
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00059 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
56
Insert offset folio 101 here 44566.031
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00060 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
57
Insert offset folio 102 here 44566.032
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00061 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
58
Insert offset folio 103 here 44566.033
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00062 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
59
Insert offset folio 104 here 44566.034
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00063 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
60
Insert offset folio 105 here 44566.035
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00064 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
61
Insert offset folio 106 here 44566.036
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00065 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
62
Insert offset folio 107 here 44566.037
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00066 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
63
Insert offset folio 108 here 44566.038
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00067 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
64
Insert offset folio 109 here 44566.039
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00068 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
65
Insert offset folio 110 here 44566.040
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00069 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
66
Insert offset folio 111 here 44566.041
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00070 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
67
Insert offset folio 112 here 44566.042
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00071 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
68
Insert offset folio 113 here 44566.043
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00072 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
69
Insert offset folio 114 here 44566.044
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00073 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
70
Æ
Insert offset folio 115 here 44566.045
SBD026 with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 15:08 Oct 13, 2021 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00074 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6011 F:\DOCS\44566.TXT DEBBIE
File and source
- File
- CHRG-117hhrg44566.pdf
- Size
- 38,928,164 bytes
- SHA-256
- 3aa6108af09932ef47efe4b632bdfe602a0420c5b4992ab55f1462771622c1b1
- Our copy
- CHRG-117hhrg44566.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov