Streaming Success: Small Businesses in the Age of Digital Influence (House Small Business Committee hearing, September 17, 2025)
Summary
Streaming Success: Small Businesses in the Age of Digital Influence, a House Small Business Committee hearing of September 17, 2025. It was saved from www.govinfo.gov as a 32,035,422-byte PDF named CHRG-119hhrg61899.pdf.
Summary drafted by a model from the text of the original file linked on this page and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Cite this document
“Streaming Success: Small Businesses in the Age of Digital Influence (House Small Business Committee hearing, September 17, 2025).”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/streaming-success-small-businesses-in-the-age-of-digital-influence-hou-48416a657f/
, SHA-256 205f0ec9b202eabc1d339fcfdf511a2192ea5d790d4caf2def213c1c5c444a2d.Full text
STREAMING SUCCESS: SMALL BUSINESSES IN THE
AGE OF DIGITAL INFLUENCE
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD
SEPTEMBER 17, 2025
Small Business Committee Document Number 119–021
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
61–899 WASHINGTON : 2026
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
Congress.#13
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 5011 Sfmt 5011 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
NICK LALOTA, New York
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
TONY WIED, Wisconsin
ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
BRIAN JACK, Georgia
TROY DOWNING, Montana
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
GIL CISNEROS, California
KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
GEORGE LATIMER, New York
DEREK TRAN, California
LATEEFAH SIMON, California
JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire
LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director
(II)
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................ 1
Hon. Nydia Velázquez ............................................................................................. 2
WITNESSES
Ms. Kayla Moran, Founder and Attorney, Kayla Moran Law, Coral Gables,
FL .......................................................................................................................... 5
Ms. Christina Brennan, President, Renegade Talent Mgmt/CelebExperts LLC,
Endicott, NY ......................................................................................................... 7
Mr. Nicholas Luciano, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Tratter House,
Millsap, TX ........................................................................................................... 8
Mr. Jesse Appell, Founder and Owner, Jesse’s Tea House, Los Angeles, CA .... 10
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Ms. Kayla Moran, Founder and Attorney, Kayla Moran Law, Coral Ga-
bles, FL .......................................................................................................... 39
Ms. Christina Brennan, President, Renegade Talent Mgmt/CelebExperts
LLC, Endicott, NY ........................................................................................ 47
Mr. Nicholas Luciano, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Tratter
House, Millsap, TX ....................................................................................... 49
Mr. Jesse Appell, Founder and Owner, Jesse’s Tea House, Los Angeles,
CA ................................................................................................................... 51
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
Cornell University ............................................................................................ 54
Engine Letter .................................................................................................... 57
House Committee on Small Business Democratic Staff Letter .................... 60
House Committee on Small Business Democratic Staff Letter 2 ................. 79
(III)
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 0486 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 0486 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
STREAMING SUCCESS: SMALL BUSINESSES IN
THE AGE OF DIGITAL INFLUENCE
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2025
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 2:04 p.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
man of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Alford, LaLota,
Jack, Downing, King-Hinds, Schmidt, Patronis, Velázquez,
McGarvey, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros, Olszewski, Conaway, and
Goodlander.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to recognize
Congressman Alford from the great State of Missouri to lead us in
the pledge and the prayer. Would you please stand.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Chair.
Let’s go in that order. We’ll start with the Pledge of Allegiance.
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, in-
divisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Our dear Father in Heaven, we just thank you for this day.
Thank you that we have it to be here to make positive change for
America in small businesses. God, we thank you for our Chair and
our Ranking Member, for their leadership, and bringing this Com-
mittee together for the common purpose of supporting small busi-
nesses and making those improvements to the SBA where we can.
God, I thank you for the witnesses here today. Give them pa-
tience with us sometimes and us with them, and just help us to
learn something, that we can take that knowledge for the better-
ment of America, and give them a safe trip home. It is through
Jesus Christ we pray. Amen.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Amen.
Good afternoon, everyone. I now call the Committee on Small
Business to order.
And without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess
of the Committee at any time.
I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
Welcome to today’s hearing, titled ‘‘Streaming Success: Small
Business in the Age of Digital Influence.’’ Today we will examine
one of the fastest growing sectors of our economy: content creation.
While some may think of content creators only as online personal-
ities, they really are a new generation of entrepreneurs taking risk
in navigating the rapidly growing industry.
(1)
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
2
Content creators are more than just entertainers. They are small
business owners, entrepreneurs, and job creators. They have trans-
formed digital influence into sustainable careers by launching prod-
uct lines, providing education, and creating loyal communities
around everything from sports to law.
In fact, more than 1.5 million Americans now earn a full-time liv-
ing as creators. Americans are building small businesses through
platforms like YouTube. YouTube itself contributes $55 billion and
half a million jobs to the American economy. Globally, this sector
is already valued over $250 billion, and it is projected to drive $2
trillion in social commerce by 2026.
The impact of this economy goes far beyond the creators them-
selves. A single successful creator fuels jobs for editors, designers,
video producers, product manufacturers, and countless other small
businesses. This superb—or this spiderweb effect shows what con-
tent creators aren’t just building brands but powering an entire
ecosystem of small business growth. But as with any small busi-
ness, they face real challenges. Unique tax situations, unpredict-
able revenue streams, and costly intellectual property protections
create barriers for these small business owners. Like this Com-
mittee has seen too often, red tape makes it difficult for these en-
trepreneurs.
So the creator economy is a prime example of the American en-
trepreneur spirit. Creators are innovative, they are fiercely com-
petitive, and contribute greatly to America’s economy. By reducing
barriers and ensuring the government does not stand in the way,
we can ensure that these small businesses have the freedom to
thrive and grow in a digital economy. So I look forward to today’s
discussion.
I now recognize my distinguished Ranking Member and my
friend for her opening remarks, Ms. Velázquez from New York.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman—and good after-
noon, everyone—for calling this important hearing.
Like with any emerging technology, nobody could fully foresee
the economic and social implications of social media as it has been.
Since then, the landscape of social media has evolved. America is
now home to a novel content creation industry worth billions of dol-
lars.
Content creators come from assorted backgrounds, and their
paths to content creation are just as diverse. Many are owners of
traditional small businesses, looking to advertise their goods and
services to new audiences. Others post about topics that they are
passionate in, go viral, and connect with their devout following,
and a golden opportunity for ad revenue develops almost overnight.
With the low to nonexistent capital requirements and cost of start-
ing and operating a social media page, coupled with the prospects
of instant fame, it is no wonder so many American youths today
dream of becoming content creators.
America’s content creators often encounter longstanding issues
that this Committee has addressed time and time again. As the
world becomes more interconnected, especially in the online sphere,
tariffs are an outside barrier to content creators looking to grow
their small businesses through product and merchandise sales.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
3
This spring, I led 67 colleagues in sending a letter to the Trump
administration’s U.S. Trade Representative, Treasury Department,
Commerce Department, and SBA, calling on them to consider and
address the needs of small businesses in their tariff decisions. I
still have not received a response from the Trade Representative or
Commerce Secretary.
Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to enter the letter into
the record.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. With the new technologies and new industry
come new challenges. The rise of social media has also seen the
rise of online hate and harassment, the side effects of algorithmic
content creation, the proliferation of content harmful to children,
and the drowning of our discourse with AI slop. I would also be re-
miss if I did not address the elephant in the room: the ban on one
of America’s most important social media platforms, TikTok.
TikTok has given small businesses a lifeline in a sea of inflation,
labor shortages, and ever-changing consumer preferences. With
this tool in their toolboxes, small business owners can expand their
reach and sales far beyond their hometowns, making them profit-
able and sustainable. Now we are in TikTok limbo. After President
Trump’s attempt to ban TikTok through executive action and Con-
gress’ subsequent legislative action, he has suddenly U-turned and
is repeatedly delaying the ban’s enforcement for short periods of
time. In fact, the last delay was supposed to expire today and was
only reextended yesterday by 3 months.
President Trump claims he will reach a deal to keep TikTok
available in America within 30 to 45 days, but it hasn’t been final-
ized. Such short timeframes create uncertainty for the content cre-
ators that rely on this platform, rendering them unable to plan be-
yond a 2-month horizon and adding immeasurable pressure to their
business models.
America’s content creators deserve a federal government that is
willing and able to support their endeavors. That requires respon-
sive agency and strong, stable public policy conducive to a pros-
perous business environment. It also means enacting thoughtful
policies to rein in harmful content when necessary.
With that, I thank all the witnesses for your presence today, and
I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now will introduce our witnesses. First witness here with us
today is Ms. Kayla Moran. Ms. Moran is an attorney and the
founder of Kayla Moran Law based in Miami, Florida. Ms. Moran
began her career as a personal injury attorney before finding her
own firm—founding her own firm to represent creators and entre-
preneurs in the growing creator economy. She is also the host of
‘‘The Let’s Get Candid’’ podcast, where she inspires young women
to pursue their passions and build careers on their own terms. Ms.
Moran earned her J.D. from the University of Tennessee College of
Law, and holds a bachelor’s degree from the University of Central
Florida. We are looking to your testimony this morning—or today.
Our next witness here with us today is Ms. Christina Brennan.
Ms. Brennan is the president of CelebExperts located in New York
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
4
City. She began her career in sales with the New York Yan-
kees——
Did you sell them out?
Ms. BRENNAN. You know it. Top of the board.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay.—and quickly rose to the talent in-
dustry, becoming the youngest vice president of CelebExperts his-
tory, while growing a roster of over 30 exclusive influencers with
a reach of more than 46 million followers. Ms. Brennan now over-
sees partnerships, brand strategy, and talent management for top-
tier clients across the sports, food, and digital career industries,
having aggregated tens of millions of dollars for both startups and
Fortune 500 companies. Ms. Brennan earned her bachelor of
science in sports management from Syracuse University.
Thank you for joining us today.
The next witness we welcome today is a constituent of mine, Mr.
Nicholas Luciano from Weatherford, Texas. Mr. Luciano is the
founder and chief executive officer of Tratter House located in
Weatherford, as I spoke. Mr. Luciano worked as a mechanical engi-
neer for the U.S. Department of Defense before making a pivot in
2020 to launch his own brand and media company. Since then, he
has grown a digital audience of over 8 million, generated a 7-figure
revenue through brand deals and merchandise, and helped compa-
nies expand their online presence. Nicholas earned his bachelor’s
degree in mechanical engineering technology from the University of
North Texas, the Mean Green.
And thank you for traveling here from the great State of Texas
to testify for us today, Nicholas.
I now recognize the Ranking Member from New York, Ms.
Velázquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing before us
today.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Jesse Appell is a comedian and entrepreneur, owning and oper-
ating Jesse’s Teahouse, an e-commerce business specializing in
high-quality tea and tea accessories. Born and raised in the Boston
area, Mr. Appell became a Fulbright scholar, studying standup
comedy in China, an experience he leveraged to begin posting
about Chinese tea on TikTok during the COVID pandemic. Later,
he went viral, used the attention to launch a tea business, and still
posts today about his products, intercultural exchange, and his
greatest standup hits. His work has also been featured on TEDx,
PBS, NPR, and Chinese media. Mr. Appell holds a bachelor’s de-
gree in East Asian studies and international and global studies
from Brandeis University.
Welcome, Mr. Appell.
Chairman WILLIAMS. If you are a comedian, you are going to
do great up here.
We appreciate all of you being here again before us. And before
recognizing, I want to—I would like to remind that oral testimony
is restricted to 5 minutes in length. And if you see the light turn
on in front of you, if it is red, if it turns on, it means your 5 min-
utes has concluded and you should wrap up your testimony. And
if you keep going, you are going to hear this, and it will just get
louder and louder, and finally you are going to have to stop, okay.
I know you will do it just right. So anyways, it will be easy.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
5
I now recognize Ms. Moran for her 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENTS OF MS. KAYLA MORAN, FOUNDER & ATTORNEY,
KAYLA MORAN LAW; MS. CHRISTINA BRENNAN, PRESIDENT,
CELEBEXPERTS LLC; MR. NICHOLAS LUCIANO, FOUNDER &
CEO, TRATTER HOUSE; AND MR. JESSE APPELL, FOUNDER &
OWNER, JESSE’S TEAHOUSE
STATEMENT OF KAYLA MORAN
Ms. MORAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ms. Ranking Mem-
ber of the Committee, for the opportunity to speak with you today.
And thank you to my fellow experts for joining me in giving cre-
ators in the creator economy a platform.
My name is Kayla Moran, and I am the founder and managing
attorney of Kayla Moran Law, a dedicated creator economy firm
with an innovative creator-first approach to help influencers and
entrepreneurs build, scale, and protect their businesses. I am a
first-generation American born to a Latin family in Miami. My fa-
ther is a Marine Corps veteran turned banker, and my mother is
an operations executive.
I entered this industry as a creator myself in 2018, and during
the rise of TikTok, I realized creators need lawyers who understand
their perspective. I have been a small business owner in the creator
economy for over 4 years, first as a blogger and podcast host, then
as an influencer manager, and now as an attorney.
The story of American entrepreneurship is changing. Today, the
storefronts of main street have moved online. The creator economy
with its low barriers to entry and flexibility open new career paths
for Americans. Starting in its early years with bloggers and evolv-
ing into marketing agencies hiring social media influencers, the
creator economy has disrupted traditional and costly multimillion
dollar marketing productions. It has become a very lucrative career
path, and now creators need Congressional backed support and
protection to support and protect them as they navigate the indus-
try as it continues to grow.
Running a business from a phone allows millions of Americans
to turn their skills, voices, and ideas into businesses. Creators can
turn side hustles into careers, stay at home while still putting food
on the table, and students can even pay their way through college.
While the average American may discredit influencing as a
hobby, Goldman Sachs, in their 2023 creator economy report, pro-
jected the industry could grow to almost $0.5 trillion by 2027. In
the U.S., there are full strategic teams at marketing agencies
sourcing the right influencer for their client’s marketing goals and
allocating million-dollar budgets. And these businesses, at the
heart of economic growth, deserve the same protections as tradi-
tional ones.
The Small Business Administration’s mission of providing aid
and protecting the interest of small business owners should be ex-
tended to this industry. Creative entrepreneurs need access to dedi-
cated creator economy experts, including lawyers, accountants, and
wealth management services, to give them the same level of sup-
port and protection the SBA provides to restaurants and mechanic
shops so they feel equally valued and respected.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
6
The rise of the creator economy has elevated the importance of
the right of publicity, the ability to commercialize your name,
image, and likeness, and it requires federal attention. Currently
this right is governed by a patchwork of inconsistent State laws
originally designed to protect privacy, which gives little guidance to
creators across State lines. Federal statutory guidance would be
helpful to us as service professionals seeking to standardize a very
cyclical industry.
Managers are not always equipped with the resources to support
their clients. Perhaps creator economy lawyers having a federal li-
cense similar to the patent bar could be a solution. If creators know
to hire an attorney, they turn to their neighborhood lawyer, but the
issues impacting this growing cohort of American entrepreneurs
needs dedicated and tailored support, which we could provide if we
were not in fear of triggering unauthorized practice-of-law issues.
Another growing concern is the concentration of power among a
few large marketing agencies. This trend toward monopolization is
creating a severe imbalance in bargaining power between con-
tracting parties. Due to the overall lack of education and the legal
implications of intellectual property ownership and other deal
terms, marketing agencies are restricting a creator’s ability to ne-
gotiate their rights while continuing to offload their responsibilities
of production and distribution, leaving all parties frustrated.
Similarly, the one-sided payment terms marketing agencies rely
on hinder a creator’s ability to earn a steady income. Often pay-
ment terms are net 60 or net 90, meaning a creator won’t be paid
for their work for up to 3 months, and payments are still late or
they never come. Unfortunately, creators are unaware that they
can sue in small claims court. And the ineffective governing law
clauses in these agreements, if they are present at all, are yet an-
other disadvantage they face.
While Congress is currently acknowledging the mental health of
minors on social media, and there are a few scattered State laws
that require protective financial trust for children performers, an-
other issue is the lack of national oversight enabling forum shop-
ping and exploitation of child creators where no regulations exist.
And, lastly, there are growing platform volatility issues creators
face with the rise of AI and account hacking. Right now, a creator’s
only mechanism to recover their account and loss of income is a
Digital Millennium Copyright Act takedown. However, because a
DMCA takedown action often requires registration of an account
holder’s trademarks and/or copyright, which is cost prohibitive at
volume, and creators are often unaware these traditional IP protec-
tions are available to them, it is not the most feasible option. This
impacts small businesses using social media as well, where there
is a growing practice of bigger companies using the DMCA take-
down tools built into platforms to restrict and shut down their com-
petition, what are traditionally considered unfair trade practices.
I hope I have demonstrated today how creators are small busi-
ness owners and how they need the same infrastructure of support
and protection that other American entrepreneurs receive. This is
a pivotal moment, and I am honored to be here. Thank you, and
I look forward to your questions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Great job.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
7
And I now recognize Ms. Brennan for her 5-minute opening re-
marks.
STATEMENT OF CHRISTINA BRENNAN
Ms. BRENNAN. Good afternoon, Chairman Williams, Ranking
Member Velázquez, and distinguished Members of the Committee.
My name is Christina Brennan, and I am honored to appear before
you today to discuss the impact of social media on small busi-
nesses, entrepreneurs, and local economies.
When people think of social media, they often picture a feed of
birthday photos, vacation selfies, or the occasional ‘‘no excuses’’
gym post. But beneath the surface is an entire web and ecosystem
of commerce. Social media is a marketplace, a workplace, and in
many cases, a lifeline for small and large businesses alike.
In the United States, the social media industry has grown into
a multihundred-billion-dollar industry, touching everything from
advertising and publishing to retail and entertainment. But its im-
pact is perhaps most deeply felt by small businesses. For a res-
taurant owner, a craftsman, or a young college athlete building her
brand, social media isn’t just marketing, it is survival and it is
scale.
For influencers, whether they have a few hundred followers or
millions, revenue streams are diverse: brand partnerships, affiliate
revenue, platform payments, merchandise, and even their own
product lines. Every influencer fuels an ecosystem of offshoot busi-
nesses: attorneys, assistants, editors, publishing houses, and man-
agers like myself. Some even play strategic roles in fundraising and
acquisitions for emerging startups.
Consider Azuna, a Buffalo-based brand whose digital strategy
helped it scale to 25 employees, a Buffalo Bills partnership, and
four agencies. Additionally, they have contracted over 100
influencers, some of which sit on their cap table. Or Chef Darian
Bryan, an immigrant entrepreneur with multiple restaurants and
a recent Snickers campaign at Highmark Stadium creating food so
delicious it would make you want to break a table. These are local
economic engines powered by digital reach.
And the beauty of social media is its accessibility. I helped scale
CelebExperts and Renegade Talent Management while living out-
side Fort Bragg, North Carolina, as a proud military spouse. Un-
like many in my community who face staggering unemployment
rates, I was fortunate to continue my career remotely. Social media
allows for people to earn a living, contribute to their families, and
bring economic opportunity to their hometowns in various loca-
tions, whether that is Buffalo, Fayetteville, or Endicott, New York.
Most recently, our organization has begun work in the NIL
space, specifically, young, dynamic women who are learning to
build long-lasting businesses around passions that they love. This
next generation represents not just a cultural shift but a chance to
democratize entrepreneurship itself.
But as powerful as this industry is, it faces real challenges.
Today, I would like to highlight three. First, cash flow. Too often,
influencer partnerships are paid months after services are deliv-
ered. For many creators and small businesses, waiting that long is
not just difficult, it is unsustainable. I do want to add, we were one
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
8
of the first ever influencer agencies, and that is not how it was
when this originally started.
Second, the rise of AI. We are entering a world where it is in-
creasingly difficult to know what is real and what is fake. Bot
influencers, content theft, dubbing, and misrepresentations don’t
just hurt credibility, but it can have dangerous consequences.
Third, the resource gap. Many new entrepreneurs lack the
knowledge to navigate contracts and offers. Education and trans-
parency in this space are critical. This isn’t just about the creators
I manage, it is about the creators I don’t.
Social media is no longer just about pictures and posts. It is
about people, jobs, and communities. It deserves thoughtful consid-
eration, protection, and support as we navigate its future together.
Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Luciano for his 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS LUCIANO
Mr. LUCIANO. Good afternoon, Chairman, Ranking Member,
and Members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to
speak with you all today. My name is Nick Luciano. I grew up in
Maryland, not far from here, but for the last 10 years, I have called
Weatherford, Texas home. I came to Texas, fell in love with the
western lifestyle—riding, roping, and rodeo—and I built my life
there.
Before I ever made a piece of content, I earned a degree in me-
chanical engineering technology from the University of North
Texas, and worked for 3 years as a mechanical engineer for the De-
partment of Defense. My job was to design protective systems and
run high-speed cameras to safeguard our soldiers. That experience
taught me problem solving, systems thinking, and responsibility at
the highest level.
I bring that same mindset to the digital space. Along the way,
I have built an audience of over 8 million followers across plat-
forms, and I have created the third most-liked TikTok in the entire
world. That moment showed me that, not only the global impact of
this new digital landscape, but also that I have played a role in
help crafting and shape it.
I first started posting content not to get famous but to help peo-
ple. I realized that something as simple as a video could reach
someone at just the right time. In college, I would get messages
from classmates saying my posts encouraged them to keep pushing
forward. But years later, I have received messages from people say-
ing that my videos have literally saved their lives.
One man wrote—he actually emailed me while he was sitting on
the tailgate of his truck, ready to end it all, but after coming across
my video, he didn’t pull the trigger. I was crying in an airport
when that happened. Moments like that showed me that this work
is bigger than clicks and likes. It is about impact. It is about using
digital platforms to reach people, to build trust, and to create posi-
tive changes.
That is where my journey shifted from being ‘‘just an influencer’’
to becoming what I call a creatorpreneur. Influencers chase trends
and attention, but creatorpreneurs like me build businesses, solve
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
9
problems, create jobs, while still connecting with millions of people
online. For me that meant founding Tratter House, the first west-
ern lifestyle content house. What started as a group of creators
under one roof, grown into a business that partners with major
brands like Ariat, Spotify, Red Bull, et cetera; and we support art-
ists like Bailey Zimmerman and Will Moseley; and now we are fo-
cused on artist development and marketing strategy.
We don’t just post videos, we roadmap careers. We help artists
build merchandise lines, manage online stores, and craft content
strategies that cut through the noise. We also run a nonprofit, the
Tratter Foundation, where every year we fly a family to Texas to
give them a once-in-a-lifetime western experience.
Tratter House has created jobs directly—my cofounders, full-time
team members, editors, accountants, merch members—and indi-
rectly, through partnerships with printers, fulfilment companies,
record labels, rodeos, and a bunch of small businesses across the
country.
Our biggest win to date has been helping our new artist, Tyce
Delk. We launched his debut single. And with our strategy, his
very first release hit over 5 million streams in just under a month,
reached number one on Spotify Viral 50 in both the USA and Can-
ada, climbed to number six on Texas radio, and charted globally.
That is not just a viral moment, that is building a foundation for
a sustainable career, and it is proof that digital creators like me
can generate real economic results.
But here is the challenge. When many people hear the word
‘‘influencer,’’ they picture kids making silly videos for clicks, and
that is a stigma that I want to break. Behind the scenes, many of
us are educated, disciplined, and purpose-driven. We are running
teams, managing payrolls, filing taxes, and partnering with brands
and other small businesses. We are contributing to the economy
just like any other entrepreneur. That is why the term I prefer is
‘‘creatorpreneur,’’ because, yes, I create content, but I also employ
people, serve clients, and build businesses.
My vision for the future is clear. The creators who endure—who
build trust, and serve their audiences, and innovate in business—
are the next generation of entrepreneurs. We are not just chasing
clicks; we are building foundations. We understand how to attract
millions of people online, nurture those relationships, and channel
that trust into businesses, nonprofits, and movements that make a
real difference.
And if I could leave you with one takeaway, it is this: People like
me aren’t in it for the money and fame. We are in it to change
lives, build businesses, and strengthen communities. We are part
of a new economy, one rooted in trust, creativity, and purpose. So
when you think about influencers, I ask you to see us not as just
entertainers but creatorpreneurs—innovators, small business own-
ers, and job creators who are here to stay.
Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your questions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize Mr. Appell for his 5-minute opening remarks.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
10
STATEMENT OF JESSE APPELL
Mr. APPELL. Good afternoon, Chairman Williams, Ranking
Member Velázquez, and Members of the Small Business Com-
mittee, and to everybody watching on YouTube. I want to thank
you all for the honor and opportunity to represent my fellow cre-
ator small businesses and to farm the aura of this esteemed cham-
ber.
My name is Jesse Appell. I am the founder of Jesse’s Teahouse.
I run an online teahouse, which is really two businesses—it is a
media company and an e-commerce business. Every day, my 1.5
million followers watch me make and drink tea, and some of these
followers actually buy the tea that I drink. As of today, we have
sent over 80,000 orders to customers all over the country.
I source my teas from farmers in China and Taiwan, many of
whom I met during my time as a Fulbright research fellow in
China. My work as a cultural ambassador has now moved online,
and I spend several months a year in Asia, going to tea mountains,
filming videos with our farmers so people can see the tea that they
are drinking and know the people who grow it. I started this busi-
ness with my own savings from my dad’s kitchen during COVID,
and it has just been amazing to see how it has grown.
I get tons of messages from customers who have shared a tea
time with their spouse or kids or parents, but sometimes emails
even go deeper. One customer was a veteran who told me that the
ritual of tea making, along with the socialization of inviting people
over, was the best treatment for PTSD that he had found so far.
Another told me that he had replaced hard drugs with tea, swap-
ping one habit for another and the mantra, ‘‘Only tea in the house.’’
All of this good is possible because of two uniquely American pil-
lars: a free internet, where I can share my story; and a free market
that allows me to sell the best tea in the world. It is to the protec-
tion and improvement of those free systems that I hope to call the
committee’s attention today.
On challenges related to internet freedoms, the most immediate
issue for my business is the potential banning of TikTok. A few
hours before this statement was due, news broke that there was a
TikTok deal. And if there is a good deal, I think that is excellent
news for creators. If TikTok is banned, I lose 600,000 followers and
sales losses likely in the hundreds of thousands.
But even if the TikTok deal is perfect, this process was not com-
fortable for creators. There was a real chance that creating what
amounts to an American version of the great firewall, which would
have solved this problem with reactive isolation rather than the
American ideals of openness, law, and transparency. And in the
end, a deal is not a law and deals can be undone, so I urge Con-
gress to codify any deal.
Because even if every national security issue with TikTok were
resolved, the battle on copyright enforcement, on data privacy, and
algorithm manipulation, these all continue. And as Congress con-
siders these issues, I hope that you will consult us creators. I defi-
nitely don’t want foreign powers manipulating my algorithm, but
I also don’t want domestic CEOs or even a for-profit board manipu-
lating my algorithm. Creators want clearly defined rules which all
platforms will play by, not just foreign ones.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
11
As for challenges in the free market, the recent tariffs have had
a devastating impact on my business. I estimate that we have lost
approximately $250,000 in sales as a direct result of the most re-
cent trade war. I run a subscription tea club where every 3 months
I send new teas to all the subscribers, but our May subscription
box just sat in the port during the trade war, and we couldn’t send
it. We had to skip it all together. We also couldn’t get a single re-
stock shipment in from the entire time between January and Au-
gust. This is all in addition to the increased taxes.
Further, the chaotic nature of the policy changes has also been
a challenge. I woke up one day to find the de-minimis clause had
been closed completely, without exception. The Postal Service had
to shut down all packages coming from China while they awaited
further instructions. Then it was reversed, and then it was rein-
stated. And will it be reversed again? It is hard to tell.
Developing a new product takes 6 to 9 months, and it is hard for
me to know what U.S. trade policy will be in 6 to 9 months. And
beyond my personal stake, should it really be necessary for small
business owners to need day-to-day updates on my new trade policy
issues in order to run a small business?
In the end, I sell tea. I am a tea guy. There are no national secu-
rity implications and no jobs to be gained from a tariff. And yet the
real jobs that I have created for myself and my five American em-
ployees have been staked as leverage and are being treated as less
important than hypothetical jobs that might come from a hypo-
thetical success of the tariff. I urge the Members to consider ex-
empting small businesses from these tariffs. As small business, we
simply do not have the resources to withstand these added costs
and uncertainties.
Finally, I want to thank the Members for their time and atten-
tion. I paid for my own ticket to come here and share my experi-
ences in good faith. If any Members believe I can be of help in any
way going forward, please contact me. I am here to try to solve
these problems.
A wise man once said, Do it for the ’gram. Today, I do not just
for the ’gram, but for America and all creators.
Thank you very much.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Thank you all for that, and we will now move to the Member
questions under the 5-minute rule.
I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Luciano, you left your career at the Department of Defense
to pursue content creation full time, as you said, in a leap that
many would see as unconventional. But today, we are seeing more
people make that jump. So the question is, what aspects of the con-
tent creator industry inspired you to make that transition? What
opportunities motivated your decision?
Mr. LUCIANO. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question. Honestly,
what motivated me was to start a purpose-driven career. I loved
working for the Department of Defense, but there was always a fire
in me to help people. And I felt like me, myself, as a Christian, it
gave me the reach to talk about my faith and talk about mental
health in ways that were unconventional, especially with the start
of TikTok.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
12
I realized very quickly, me being a systems guy, that the systems
of this algorithm were built different and I wanted to use it for
good. So I downloaded TikTok at my desk in 2019, and the rest is
history. And I have been able to work with dream brands and start
my own businesses, and I feel like I am walking in a path of pur-
pose. So that is really the main driver behind it.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Ms. Brennan, the rise of name, image, and likeness—something
we are all interested in—has changed the landscape for athletes
and creators, opening new doors for entrepreneurs, and estab-
lishing a lasting market presence. So the question is, how have you
worked with your clients to navigate this space when it comes to
protecting and strengthening their personal brands?
Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. You
know, it is a really cool time to be involved with, you know, young
athletes, because they are able to finally monetize their brands and
build businesses beyond just what they do. They can explore pas-
sions and build out big programs. I mean, we are talking about eq-
uity programs and things like that, interests outside of their sports.
I have worked with companies like IPSY Beauty Box, and that
is really exciting, because you think athlete, okay, you think ball
and stick, things like that, but you don’t necessarily think about
the offshoot businesses created because of that. And that has just
been a honor and a blessing. We work with—our firm works with
both NIL athletes and pros, and it has just been incredible to see
these young women grow, learn more about business, and have real
passions and goals outside of their sport as well, further extending
their longevity, may I add, as well. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. This question will be to all of you
in my remaining time, so we will start down here and move. Con-
tent creation has become a powerful driver in today’s economy, ex-
panding opportunities for entrepreneurship. So from each of your
perspectives, how important are creators to the American economy
and their communities?
Ms. MORAN. Thank you for the question. I think as many of us
have said, it creates jobs not only for ourselves, but I have my staff
here with me, some of them, my family helps me out, and I do pay
them when they create content for me. I think also, as Jesse has
said, you know, they create sales. They are creating product lines
and merch and beauty companies and service businesses and prod-
uct-based businesses as well. So I think they are a driver of the
economy because, as we are here, it is a small business, and at the
end of the day, this country is built on small businesses.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. That is right. Thanks.
Ms. BRENNAN. Seventy-seven percent of small businesses in the
United States use social media for essential functions, such as
sales, marketing, and customer service, according to
BusinessDasher. That is significant, and I would argue that that
is a dated number. Social media is not just a vehicle for sales; it
is branding, it is voice, and it is connecting with the consumer.
Small businesses have the opportunity to geo tag where they are
and have this plethora of, you know, new views and new opportuni-
ties that come from that. I work with Azuna, the Buffalo-based
company, and they are expanding like wildfire due to their digital
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00016 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
13
strategy. It is impressive and it is incredible. And they are inter-
twined with the creator economy. It is a really exciting time, and
I am looking forward to, you know, finding additional ways that
these creators can expand. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. We have got 50 seconds, so, Mr.
Luciano, if you could come and then we will finish up——
Mr. LUCIANO. Yes, sir. I will make it brief. I will just reference
a video of mine where I adopted a dog at a local shelter in Stephen-
ville, went viral, and we started an annual event called K-9s and
Coffee, where we brought all small businesses together to help
raise money to fund a new shelter because they are underfunded
in the local community.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Good.
Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Chairman. For my part, I just want to
add more of a spiritual addition here. The enjoyment that I get out
of life of being my own boss, going in my own direction, doing what
I love to do, this is, I think, what really is making creators so eager
to find a way to make a living so that they can live this kind of
lifestyle. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Great. Well, I will yield my time back.
I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of questions.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Appell, how do small businesses and content creators earn
money and grow on social media?
Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Congresswoman. There is a couple
ways you can make money. One of them is you can make money
off of views. If you get enough views, they will pay you for the
views, different platforms will. People can do branding deals and
merchandising deals; the other witnesses have talked about that.
Another way is by creating your own brand and essentially going
way beyond merch, so rather than just the T-shirt or a hat with
my name on it, to be able to sell tea pots and equipment and spe-
cialized teas and stuff like that. So there are various ways that cre-
ators can make money.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you. And you mentioned the tariff
wars. President Trump’s escalating trade wars have caused tariff
rates to change often. What business uncertainty did that pose?
Mr. APPELL. Thank you. It adds a lot of uncertainty. It is very
difficult to price items when I don’t know how much I am paying
for them. During the—kind of the worst parts of the tariff war, I
had already had boats with tea that had left the port, and I didn’t
know what I would be paying for them when they would arrive.
That was an extreme version of this. But even beyond it, if a tax
is raised, I can kind of adjust, but it is difficult to know how much
extra I should adjust based off of future uncertainty given that we
are working on 60- or 90-day schedules until the next deal.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. What knowledge do you need to navigate the
tax tariffs?
Mr. APPELL. Obviously, we need to spend a lot of time, a lot
more than before, keeping our eyes on the news, keeping our eyes
on tweets where a lot of times the news breaks earlier than other
places. And also, I need to spend a lot more time communicating
with my suppliers in China. They are ready to go. I am ready to
go. They message me asking what is going on, and I feel like I owe
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
14
them at least an explanation of my best understanding of what is
going on with the U.S. trade policy. They are not going to get it
anywhere else. So there is a lot of extra communication that comes
into effect that is completely unrelated to the tax price.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. The President says that China will move
TikTok to U.S. ownership, but he hasn’t closed a deal. Instead, he
paused the TikTok ban for 3 months. Do you feel whiplash from
the constantly changing news?
Mr. APPELL. Yeah. I mean, we don’t know what is going to hap-
pen with the platform. As a creator and an artist, my reaction has
been to put my head down and try to keep creating. But that could
mean, if it is banned, I have just put more time and energy into
a platform that is now destroyed.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Secretary Bessent says President Trump was
willing to let TikTok go dark today. Does that scare you?
Mr. APPELL. Yes.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Last year, Committee staff issued a report
warning that AI-made content is unfairly crowding out human cre-
ators.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter the report into the record.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. How does AI slop compete with your content?
Mr. APPELL. Sure. So the most basic thing is when you are on
an app, which is primarily recommendation based, they have a mix
of things that come up on that feed, and a lot of that stuff can be
determined to be AI slop, or at the very least is perhaps not the
best, like, you know, real creator content that is out there. That
gums up the air waves. It makes a very bad user experience for
people who are trying to watch quality media. And for some indus-
tries, it is much worse than others.
I am here today as a tea guy, but I will say as a standup come-
dian, go and check when you see a standup video, check to see if
it is the actual standup comedian posting. I would say 9 out of 10
times it is all stolen, and we work for a long time to get a couple
jokes onto a TV show. To have that just stolen and repeated or to
have the video on the top while somebody plays Subway Surfer on
the bottom, you know, this is very discouraging to people who real-
ly want to put time and energy into making really good content.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Ms. Brennan, anything to add on AI risk for
creators?
Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. Yes. The
content theft and dubbing over words is extremely dangerous. I
represent a number of medical professionals, including a surgeon.
At one point his content was taken and they dubbed over a com-
pletely different ad, were using it in whitelisting and targeting, and
people were buying this product. Now, this was an overseas com-
pany selling it, so that adds additional complications. But that is
dangerous. They know this doctor because he has millions of fol-
lowers and he is a practicing surgeon. So, you know, that is a very,
very big problem.
I think AI can be helpful as well. When we are talking about con-
tent scraping from, you know—for children’s sake, I think it can be
a very, very helpful tool. But it has to have a human element to
it, and it always has to be checked. Thank you.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
15
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Stauber from the great State of Minnesota
for 5 minutes.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Chair Williams and Ranking Mem-
ber Velázquez, for holding the hearing today, and all the witnesses
for your testimony.
In northern Minnesota, small businesses are the backbone of our
economy, and many of these entrepreneurs are blending online con-
tent with traditional operations to expand their customer base,
build brand recognition, and reach markets well beyond Min-
nesota’s Eighth Congressional District.
The digital economy isn’t just about influencers in Los Angeles.
It is the real estate agent in Brainerd, Minnesota, looking to reach
new buyers. It is the photographer in Duluth who is looking to
share their portfolio capturing the beauty of northern Minnesota.
These creators are building something real, and like every other
small business, they face red tape that Washington is too slow to
recognize.
Mr. Luciano, you have turned your platform into a full-fledged
business. Can you talk about the biggest challenges to formalizing
your operation, particularly in accessing capital?
Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. I mean, the biggest challenge as far as ac-
cessing capital is just education, the misrepresentation of what we
do. So a lot of the times you are having to tell people that I am
not just an influencer in it for clicks and likes, that I am actually
like these small businesses in the squares. And just because you
can’t see it on a storefront doesn’t mean we are not in our houses
doing live streams and trying to build revenue.
And luckily, I have partnered with CrowdSurf to explore the
funding side of things, so I am taking investments in my business
as well. So it has been really interesting to explore, and I am look-
ing forward to actually having people in my back pocket to make
them proud when I make Tratter House a flourishing company.
Mr. STAUBER. Ms. Brennan, what risk do creators face when
handling contracts and business deals on their own, and what pro-
tections do they need to avoid exploitation?
Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. When cre-
ators start, it is not necessarily given that they have a business de-
gree from Harvard. So there is a inherent lack of education in the
creator economy, and they deserve to receive that education,
whether that is through the platforms or something else. Education
is fundamental to decision-making processes. You know, you have
to be informed to be able to make the decision if you want to go
forward or not and understand the implications that come to that.
As far as management, oftentimes creators, especially when they
are first starting, have not quite hit their revenue where it makes
sense from a business perspective to pursue. So they are doing it
on their own, and that can have longstanding implications to their
business. Thank you.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you. I am glad you said you don’t have
to have a business degree from Harvard, because you are looking
at two Lake Superior State University grads out of Sault Ste.
Marie, Michigan.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
16
Ms. Moran, as not only a creator but someone who advises cre-
ators, are there specific legal or tax hurdles that disproportionately
impact new digital entrepreneurs, especially those who are just
starting to grow their digital business?
Ms. MORAN. Thank you for the question. As Ms. Brennan said,
I think a lot of times they think I need to have a manager to help
me make a business and make more money, but they don’t think
of the legal implications of the contracts that they are signing or
if there is a contract at all, especially when the tax season comes
around. On Monday, the Q3 estimated taxes were due. I paid mine.
I don’t know if a lot of these creators know that they need to be
doing that, and then come April, there is a really large tax bill that
they are frightened by.
And, you know, having advisers and people who can assist them
in understanding what a business is—because as we said, a lot of
them, they know they are small businesses. Even when they start
out, once you start making money, you are a business, and I think
we know that inherently. We don’t necessarily think of, you know,
the formalization of it, starting an LLC to protect their intellectual
property, you know, having a lend-out company, who is the con-
tracting party. A lot of them let their managers sign for them,
which isn’t necessarily bad, but having an understanding of what
that means. Yeah, there is a lot of things to consider, honestly.
Mr. STAUBER. With my last 50 seconds, I would like to take a
quick poll of all of our entire panel. Within the last year, has your
content creator business hired another small business to help your
business in any way? Ms. Moran?
Ms. MORAN. An accountant and employees.
Mr. STAUBER. Ms. Brennan?
Ms. BRENNAN. We have been established for a long time, so we
do have parties we work with. We continue to expand our creator
roster, which expands our business. Thank you.
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Luciano?
Mr. LUCIANO. Yes. And I am proud to shout out my tax team,
Decipher Financials.
Mr. STAUBER. Perfect.
Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, because they have helped—they under-
stand me as a creator to get my taxes right.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you.
Mr. Appell?
Mr. APPELL. Yes. We have been working with Rare Flower
Media in Los Angeles for additional editing help and social media
posting.
Mr. STAUBER. Perfect. Good shout-out to those folks.
Mr. APPELL. Represent.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, all. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of Michigan
for 5 minutes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
And thank you so much to our incredible, young entrepreneurs
for being here today. We recognize the work that you do is a part
of generating not only important content but drawing others to in-
credible products that are already in the market. We know increas-
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
17
ingly businesses rely on content creators to help elevate their prod-
ucts in the absence of a traditional advertising market space. You
all can help get this content out to where it needs to be.
As the mom of two pre-teen and teen boys, who are constantly
telling me all about the latest trends that they see online, I can tell
you, I know firsthand about the importance of your work.
Ms. Appell [sic], I want to thank you for joining us here today
and giving us an idea of what it is like to be a content creator in
an ever-changing economic and social landscape. As social media
continues to evolve with technology, I am curious about your
thoughts on the use of Generative AI in content creation. We know
Gen AI can be used to augment a wide variety of online content.
Have you used or considered using Gen AI for your business, and
are you concerned about the potential for Gen AI to pose unfair
competition for human creators?
Ms. MORAN. Are you speaking to me or to Ms. Brennan?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. To you.
Ms. MORAN. Me, okay.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah.
Ms. MORAN. I just wanted to double-check. I have actually con-
sidered using AI in my business. I think sometimes there is a lot
of concern with the open-source/close-source situation in a legal ca-
pacity. Actually, one of my associates was telling me about a new
AI legal tool, so I have some research to do when I get back to my
hotel room.
But I think—yeah, I mean, I am not going to say I don’t use
ChatGPT or Claude. I do prefer Claude sometimes. I think it is just
educating creators on not putting a full contract with personally
identifying information into ChatGPT—no names, no addresses,
company names, things like that.
For creators using AI, I think making sure they understand
where they are getting their information from and always checking
sources when they get an output, making sure that the information
that ChatGPT or whatever AI tool they are using is, you know, it
is accurate and correct information. There is history of it making
up case law or stories and facts.
I think also for creators, I get clients asking me all the time,
when I create content for my clients as a social media manager,
can I use a Pinterest image in a graphic that I make? You know,
they want to understand the licensing. I think understanding, most
of us, when we sign up for a new account, we check, yes, we read
the terms of service. None of us actually read the terms and condi-
tions of anything, because they are really long, but I think making
sure you understand what you are agreeing to.
When CapCut changed the terms a couple months ago, you
know, I created a video explaining what these terms of service
changes are and what they mean for you as creators. And I think
a lot of people are really upset by them, but no one has stopped
using CapCut. So I think making sure you know what you are
using.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Do you think—I want to stick on this
question line just a second, because it is such a new and emerging
technology. And I—you know, I agree with the gist of what you
were saying, which is it can be such a helpful and important tool
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
18
for content creators, but there is a lot of parameters and rules of
the road people need to understand.
Do you think content creators and young people in particular are
getting the education they need around how best to use these tools,
whether in school or, you know, is that potentially a lane for, you
know, the SBA?
Ms. MORAN. I think both. I think there is room for education
from fellow creators. I think knowledge creators are a really grow-
ing community of creators. Professionals ourselves, we are content
creators. That is how we market our services to other creators. I
think having the SBA provide guidance, you know, resources, you
know, having a database of experts to go to, not just lawyers and
accountants but also, you know, an AI expert, someone explaining
what these terms mean.
But I think there is also—the issue is a lot of misinformation.
There is, myself included, multiple creators, every single time a
new status update changes or something, we are sharing what this
actually means in a video, but then someone is discrediting us be-
cause they don’t want that to be true.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah.
Ms. MORAN. And I think, again, flagging ‘‘is this correct infor-
mation?’’ is important.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Thank you. My time is expiring here, but
really, really appreciate your comments. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri for
5 minutes.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ranking
Member Velázquez, for this important hearing.
Today’s hearing is about more than social media. It is about rec-
ognizing that digital creators are America’s next generation of
small business owners. Whether it is a farm family sharing their
story on YouTube—we have several of those in my district, Mis-
souri—a veteran teaching lessons on Instagram, or young entre-
preneurs selling products online, creators are turning influence into
real businesses that drive jobs and growth, some 1.5 million con-
tent creators in America. Social commerce projected to reach $2
trillion by 2026.
But like many small businesses, they are running into barriers,
from confusing tax rules to trouble accessing capital, simply be-
cause their income looks different on paper. Our job on this Com-
mittee is to make sure that Washington does not hold back innova-
tion. Supporting creators is not about promoting trends. It is about
empowering small business owners, like yourselves, who are driv-
ing economic growth in the digital age.
My mom is 84 years old. She is in assisted living down in Hous-
ton, Texas, area, and we spend a lot of time on the phone now talk-
ing about her memories as a child. She talks a lot about the family
sitting around listening and watching the radio, before there was
television, and then her dad going to the town square to the radio
store where they had just put a television in the window, and they
would stand around and watch a test pattern.
We have gone a remarkable way in the last 80 years in America.
From the Founding Fathers, the money was in independent print-
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
19
ing presses, then it transitioned to newspapers, then the money fol-
lowed radio when it was invented, and then television and then
cable, and now social media. And I look forward to telling my
granddaughter, who is only 9 months old—her name is Naomi—
about when social media came on to the scene and content creators
and the difference that it made in our society and in our economy.
So I applaud what you are doing. And I think our job here is to
try to find ways that we can help you be even more successful than
you are. It is an inspiration to me and I think the Chair and the
Ranking Member and others on this Committee just the spirit of
entrepreneurism that you guys have captured, that you have
reached beyond the boundaries that some have been standing in
your way to find a way to do business online, and seeking out these
guardrails for protecting your business, to make more money, and
to make sure that we stay in these lanes, especially with the ad-
vent of AI.
So I just want to know, Ms. Brennan, how can we—there is a lot
of generalities out there, but what do we need to be look—we prob-
ably should have looked 10 years ago at this, but what can we do
now to help you and the industry be even more successful for the
economy of America and main street?
Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you for that question. And I think it
comes back to education. I think, you know, tax breaks are always
helpful for new businesses that are starting and coming up, specifi-
cally creator-led businesses. If we are identifying these individ-
uals—and they are—as the next generation of entrepreneurs, they
deserve the same protections and education on how to grow. I think
that is a really dynamic way.
And then looking at it from perhaps the NIL standpoint, where
there is a lot of marketing deals. And I am going to speak to mar-
keting deals. I am not going to speak to the actual contracts with
the universities. Right now, it is not a national registration for
agents. Right now, it is segmented by the States and it varies, and
it becomes costly for small businesses. For the big guys, it is no
problem, but you start adding up those bills and start swiping
those credit cards and it adds up. These athletes deserve to be pro-
tected. However, you know, let’s kind of avoid the barriers to entry
that aren’t necessary. Thank you.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you very much.
Mr. Luciano, appreciate your work. I have seen a little bit online.
What drives you to do this? You said you wanted to give something
back, you wanted to make a difference. Expound on that just a lit-
tle bit.
Mr. LUCIANO. For me, I refer to the younger you principle.
When I was 16 years old, I really struggled with my mental health.
And I go around to FFA events across the country, and I speak to
16-year-olds on the daily. And to see them do what I want to do
is amazing, but I also want to protect them and their mental
health, and as these ladies were saying, the misinformation that
can be harmful. So I just want to put a good message out into the
world and protect these kids as they take in this media.
Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you. There is a lot of hate out there
right now, especially after last week. And I applaud what you are
doing. Thank you. God bless you.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
20
And I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New Jersey
for 5 minutes.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much, Chairman, and thank you to
the Ranking Member. Thank you so much for holding this hearing.
I want to thank our witnesses today for joining us.
Online content creators are not just influencers. They are entre-
preneurs, job creators, innovators, and small business owners. They
deal with money management, taxes, compliance, and marketing
engagement like any other business. But they face unique chal-
lenges, as we have heard already from some of our testimony
today, unique challenges when their primary storefronts are intan-
gible online platforms.
Content creation can often make or break a small business. Con-
gress must identify where federal policy can help creators operate
on a level playing field, protect their business revenues, and com-
pete fairly in a consolidated and often crazy online marketplace.
With that, we heard some testimony from Mr. Appell about how
the tariffs have, you know, definitely disrupted your regular, nor-
mal process. And I am sorry to hear that, especially when you talk
about $250,000, that is a lot of money, and even the unsettledness
of where your business is going and how to plan for that.
I would love to hear more from some of the other panel members.
Based on your experience, how have the tariffs impacted content
creators’ ability to maintain product quality, affordable pricing, and
customer satisfaction? We can start at the end.
Ms. MORAN. For me, I am in the service-based business and my
clients as well, digital content creation, but I think access to per-
sonal capital. You know, income isn’t coming in. Money isn’t going
as far as it used to, so not having the ability to hire service profes-
sionals to guide them.
I heard from a lot of my creator friends. They, you know, filed
their own taxes this year instead of hiring an accountant last year.
Hopefully things went well. We won’t know until, you know, re-
funds come through or things like that.
Yeah, I just don’t think money is going as far as it used to, and
so people are skipping steps where they can—to cut costs. And I
understand that, but it is also worrisome. You know, people don’t
want to hire a lawyer to read their contracts, but these are really
bad contracts. Sometimes they are very one-sided. They are very
favorable to the marketing agencies or to the brands directly if
they are the contracting party.
So I think, you know, skipping steps is dangerous.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you.
Ms. Brennan?
Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. With the tariffs came uncertainty,
and I think it is going to go back to education and how to mitigate
risk as a business owner because, again, that is what these people
are, they are business owners.
How do you mitigate risk? How do you have multiple streams of
income coming from everywhere? And again, I will hit on it again.
It is about the creators I don’t manage, the creators that maybe
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00024 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
21
don’t have a manager in their corner with, you know, tons of dif-
ferent services.
As far as the tariffs and small businesses, I did hear from one
small business that due to the, I guess you could say the exit of
two very, very big ad buyers, it actually led to less competition as
far as ad buying and ad auction, giving them a really interesting
opportunity to grow. And if we can build off of that in a very
unique way, right, hiring more influencers and local creators and
things like that, I think that is a home run.
So, yes, tariffs definitely cause uncertainty, and I can’t say what
the impact will be year-to-date, but, again, it is going to go back
to education and mitigating risk as a business owner. Thank you.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much.
Mr. Luciano?
Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. For me, I have built my brand, and we go
around the country. We set up booths from FFA events to the NFR,
and just over the years, we have had to hike up prices. So we see
people come by the booth and go, $40 for a cap? No way. When I
used to be able to sell it for $29 4 years ago, right.
So it has just been me seeing the prices hike up, and then, in
turn, that affects my top line, and then I am not able to, you know,
reinvest as much as I can back into that revenue stream.
Mrs. MCIVER. Yeah. Thank you so much for that.
Anything you want to add to that? I know you already spent
some time talking about it, but anything else you might want to
add, I would love to hear.
Mr. APPELL. Sure. I would just like to add, I mean, I came to
tea through being a full-bred scholar in China and drinking tea
and meeting tea farmers there and speak Chinese. For me, this is
not a matter of, oh, if the market is cheaper to sell Japanese tea
or Indian tea, oh, we will just switch it. On paper, you might be
able to do that, and maybe to the country it will look on paper like
there is a similarity between the business.
For me, that would be not only just a total upheaval of my life,
and I would have to learn Japanese, but it is also—again, spir-
itually, the best part of being a creator is I get to chase what I real-
ly care about, and I get to do it with the people that I love, and
I get to do it with the people who have been good to me, and I can
be good to them, and sometimes they are in China.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much for sharing, to each of you.
With that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And now I recognize Mr. LaLota from the great State of New
York for 5 minutes.
Mr. LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your lead-
ership on this issue.
Ms. Moran, how are you doing?
Ms. MORAN. Good. How are you?
Mr. LALOTA. Good. My memo here says that the internet con-
tent creation industry is a $250 billion industry as of 2023, but it
is expected to grow to $500 billion by 2030.
And you are an attorney who represents a lot of internet content
creators?
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
22
Ms. MORAN. Yes. Most of my clients are talent directly or talent
management agencies, like Ms. Brennan here. So there are hun-
dreds of creators and hundreds of talent managers in this country,
and there is a lot of money circulating.
Mr. LALOTA. Yeah. And about what kind of content do they
often create?
Ms. MORAN. Anything from fashion and beauty to educational
content, mental health, sports, anything. It could be anything you
want.
Mr. LALOTA. Cool. And on what platforms do they usually place
this content?
Ms. MORAN. I think the majority of creators use your main
three: TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. But there is Twitch, stream-
ers, gamers. There is—I can’t think of any right now. I am blank-
ing. Lemon 8, which is owned by ByleDance as well. Facebook is
still a primary source for some companies. Yeah, there is—
Pinterest is another one. There are several.
Mr. LALOTA. This hearing is enlightening for me because I
didn’t realize how big this industry is, and you four are able to tell
us exactly how big it is and where it reaches and whatnot.
I take it that because you are an attorney, you probably don’t
work for free?
Ms. MORAN. No, I do not.
Mr. LALOTA. Good. Good for you. You should charge.
Nevertheless, so the clients that pay you, they are profitable too.
They are paying taxes. They are feeding their families. They are
contributing to society?
Ms. MORAN. I would hope so.
Mr. LALOTA. Good.
Ms. MORAN. I always advise them to do so, yes.
Mr. LALOTA. Smart. That wasn’t a trick question, I promise.
Ms. Brennan, I really want to spend my time talking to you
about the New York Yankees, the greatest sports franchise we
have ever seen on the face of this Earth. I am going to try to stay
a little focused here and not spend my time on that.
But knowing how economically viable the industry that you are
involved in is, when a entrepreneur’s content gets stolen or copied,
how damaging could it be to that person’s ability to operate as a
small business?
Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. It can be
extraordinarily damaging. I gave the example of a surgeon who had
his content stolen, and it was used by a offshore brand to sell a
supplement that wasn’t even third-party tested. He got DMs from
people who follow him saying they bought it because they saw he
endorsed it. And that is scary.
So that is a very, very, very big issue, because that is not just
an issue of, you know, credibility; that is an issue that maybe has
safety implications. So those situations should be, you know,
thought of in high regard. Thank you.
Mr. LALOTA. Great. So when an individual’s work product gets
stolen, it is damaging to the individual. What about the rest of the
industry? Does it have a chilling effect on the rest of the industry?
Do people then want to put less resources into creating the content
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
23
because they anticipate, perhaps reasonably, that their stuff is
going to be stolen?
Ms. BRENNAN. That is a great question, and I don’t necessarily
have a full answer for you. What I can say is, from a consumer
standpoint, if we are seeing content that is stolen with AI dubbing,
and there are no disclosures, that is a big issue. So from a con-
sumer standpoint, when we go to purchase products, what is it
doing to that consumer’s psyche? Is it real? Is it fake?
I believe right now as far as the disclosures go, they are optional
for the parties using it, but as a consumer, I would like to know
if something is heavily edited using AI. I would like to know if it
is a CGI influencer who are taking brand deals that are valued at
a lot of money when they are not real people or groups of people,
and that needs to be clearly disclosed.
Mr. LALOTA. Great.
Mr. Appell, I am going to go to you now.
Mr. APPELL. Yes.
Mr. LALOTA. What are you drinking over there?
Mr. APPELL. I am drinking ancient tree red tea with roses in
it from Yunnan, China. It is great.
Mr. LALOTA. You are welcome. I know you did the——
Mr. APPELL. I can make you some if you would like.
Mr. LALOTA. I wanted to make sure we got the YouTube version
of it.
Mr. APPELL. Thank you.
Mr. LALOTA. Tell me, piggybacking on what I just said before,
how does a lack of consistent right of publicity protection leave
small creators especially vulnerable?
Mr. APPELL. Yes. So my business is called Jesse’s Teahouse. So
one of the reasons I did that is because it is very hard to fake
Jesse. I make the tea myself. I show the farmers we work with. All
of these things really are antipiracy ways of going about business.
You know, I learned definitely from my career as a comedian on-
line the content will be stolen. The question is not whether it will
be stolen. The question is when they steal the content, does it help
your business or hurt you?
If people decide to steal Jesse’s Teahouse videos with Jesse
hosting, they are really kind of advertising for me. But this was a
long workaround that it took really a decade of dealing with a very
leaky rights protection system for creators that led me to figure out
this very specific way I could try to protect my rights without any
additional regulation.
Mr. LALOTA. Great. Thanks.
Mr. APPELL. Thank you.
Mr. LALOTA. Mr. Luciano, great that you are here. My time has
expired. Thanks for being here, sir.
I yield.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Dr. Conaway from the great State of New Jersey
for 5 minutes.
Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, Messrs. and Mrs. for—not Mrs. Mrs.? Anyway,
thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for presenting yourself here today
and giving very important information at least to yours truly who
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
24
is not involved very much with social media at all, believe it or not.
But it has not passed me by exactly, but I don’t spend a lot of time
there because I don’t have that much time, but I am glad you are
doing very well at the work that you are doing, and clearly it is
work that you love doing, and it is always nice to hear from people
who are enjoying their work.
One of the things that struck me as I listened to your comments
as small business persons and understanding the environment in
which we all operate today, how has Big Tech, if you will, how does
that impact you? And do you have some suggestions about how we
defend your space and your purchase in this economy?
Anybody can take it. That is a round-robin question.
Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I will go for it. I like to specifically speak
to like Meta and how these certain platforms offer verification proc-
esses through our actual identity and through our government pa-
perwork, but when—specifically me, there are thousands of fake ac-
counts of me, but I am paying this platform with my government
ID to say that I am who I say I am. So when I report an account,
why isn’t it not taken down immediately?
So that is one of the big things where I was like, you know, peo-
ple are DM-ing me about crazy things that have happened from a
fake profile of mine.
Mr. CONAWAY. So more focus by the Justice Department, I pre-
sume, on this kind of trade violation, I suppose.
Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. Yeah, it is just very easy to steal some-
one’s content.
Mr. CONAWAY. Ms. Moran?
Ms. MORAN. Yes. To piggyback off that, I think also there is a
lot of disincentivizing of creators disclosing with the FTC guide-
lines that they are monetizing their content because the platforms
don’t push it out. So not only is there fake accounts being made
and harassment and bullying, but also creators don’t want to put
these disclosures on, that they are contractually obligated to do so
and legally obligated to do so, because then the content won’t get
pushed out and then the views won’t be as high and then they
might not hit the targets that the contract set to get bonus money.
So Big Tech disincentivizing disclosures is a big issue. I think
also these big companies, not just tech but any big company, there
is this trend of monopolization. So these contracts are very one-
sided. They are very unfavorable to the small businesses, to the
creators.
And, again, there is not a lot of education on what these contract
terms mean. Also, arbitration. A lot of these contracts have arbitra-
tion clauses in it instead of a mediation clause or suing in small
claims court.
These contracts are not that big. Some of them are. Some of
them can be very lucrative, but a lot of times being lucrative is at
volume. But these deals are, for the most part, 2 to 5 to 10 to
$20,000, and arbitration is just not feasible at that point.
Mr. CONAWAY. That is another issue.
Ms. Brennan, just quickly, if you can, because I do want to get
to another question.
Ms. BRENNAN. So I like the saying, if you can’t play nice, you
can’t play at all. So these companies that are stealing this data,
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00028 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
25
and perhaps they didn’t know, right. Let’s assume the positive and
they didn’t know. Have some sort of step and education where they
have to complete it. Similarly to, you know, if you commit a crime,
you have to go through some sort of program, right. And if you
can’t play nice, you can’t play at all because this is a serious issue.
Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you.
Mr. Appell?
Mr. APPELL. Yes. And just really briefly on that. I think the al-
gorithm and the lack of control about what legally you can do with
a recommendation algorithm is something that can be looked at.
I have 1.5 million followers, but there is no law that says they
have to show my video to anyone. I have worked on it for years to
build the accounts, but will they show it? Maybe not.
Additionally, if, you know, any given tech company realizes that
they make marginally more money showing coffee videos rather
than tea videos, they could just only show coffee videos and never
show tea videos, and I would never know. I have to work endlessly
hoping they show it.
Mr. CONAWAY. And just for the record, you know, hate speech
has been mentioned. It is certainly something that is top of mind.
Many persons in minority communities face discrimination online.
If they say something that is unpopular or perceived as being un-
popular, the Big Tech companies, those who are sort of controlling
access to the world digitally, can censor them, quite frankly.
Have any of you experienced hate speech or censorship in the
things that you have been doing?
And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
for 5 minutes.
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the
witnesses for being here.
You know, this is an exciting topic for me. You are coming out
of technology. This has been something that we have been talking
about since my formative years.
And my last job before I was in Congress, I was a regulator of
the insurance and securities industries in the State of Montana,
and artificial intelligence, machine learning, big data all became a
big part of the conversation on how we make use of this as a tool
and understand really where, you know, reasonable sideboards are
so you inspire and, you know, invoke innovation in the United
States of America. Make sure that we continue to be innovators
there but understanding what the implications are, and some of
these conversations have just been really, really intriguing.
You know, a couple of top line comments. Artificial intelligence
is really set to transform the whole scope of the American economy,
you know, including revolutionizing how business owners invest in
their ventures, employ workers, manufacture products, and, you
know, as I mentioned before, even, you know, how it rates insur-
ance.
There are so many opportunities there, and a lot of folks are, you
know, excited about the opportunity but concerned about what it
means, because a lot of folks just want to be able to look into that
black box. And, you know, I always say, well, once that black box
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00029 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
26
has an N equals infinity matrix, you know, network in there, how
does any human understand it. So there are interesting problems
before us.
Ms. Moran, in your testimony, you discussed the growing role
that artificial intelligence will play in the digital creator economy.
Notably, you highlight some AI-associated challenges that online
content creators face in forwarding their brands, including, you
know, deepfakes and account hacking.
So with computing and machine learning capabilities set to be-
come more and more powerful in the coming years, how do you
think online small businesses and creators are positioned to deal
with these AI-associated challenges going forward?
Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I think as we have all said, education,
and I think disclosure, disclosing that AI is being used and in what
capacity it is being used, to the extent. Having a percentage of how
much AI can be used or how much is inputted versus output. I
mean, I don’t know how feasible that really is, but I think edu-
cation and disclosure are primary things with deepfakes.
I know there are countries, in Europe primarily passing copy-
right laws. Denmark passed a law that you could copyright your
face, basically, so they can’t make deepfakes. I don’t know if that
is feasible here but some sort of regulations.
Mr. DOWNING. So I am glad you brought up, you know, foreign
countries. So from your experience, what foreign countries and ac-
tors are the most culpable for promulgating malicious activities like
hacking and spam accounts and, you know, target online creators?
Ms. MORAN. I think there is a big—I don’t know if I necessarily
want to call out specific countries, but there are countries that are
associated with bot followers. So a lot of times companies or people
will maliciously purchase followers for an account that they want
to blow up to then try to steal the account, or, you know, I will
offer you $500,000 to buy your account from you, and, you know,
you have to—you should sell it because now it is no longer yours.
Mr. DOWNING. Right.
Ms. MORAN. And so that is a business model that also needs
regulation, but a lot of times these followers are coming from who
knows where.
Mr. DOWNING. Right. So despite these challenges, the growing
power of AI also has incredible potential to assist entrepreneurs as
well, including those based online. So what do you think could be
some positive developments that could come from AI that could
help digital creators generate better content to better compete in
the online economy?
Ms. MORAN. Efficiency. AI is a great tool for efficiency. You
know, I have friends who have created tech apps with closed source
AI tools where I can upload a video. It can watch my video and cre-
ate a script for me——
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you.
Ms. MORAN.—instead of me sitting and scripting out the video
itself. So things like that are really helpful.
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you.
Ms. Brennan, from your experience managing your clients’ online
presence, what has your experience been with AI? How has it
factored into your firm’s business strategy and operations?
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
27
Ms. BRENNAN. I think that is a great and multifaceted answer.
As far as the pros, it can, you know, detect, you know, potentially
harmful content as far as the user experience, so that is great. We
want everyone safe online, including our children. And then as far
as efficiency and accessibility, that is quite helpful if you are a
small business and you don’t have the resources to, you know,
produce more jobs at the time.
As far as cons, the fake AI influencers, that is scary, and the con-
tent theft and dubbing over people’s name, image, and likeness and
creating false ads with faulty supplements—and I can go on and
on with that—that needs to be regulated. There has got to be clear
disclosures, and when there is a concern, it has to be escalated and
escalated quickly to remedy that.
Mr. DOWNING. Right. Unfortunately, I have run out of time,
but I really appreciate you all participating.
And I yield my time, Mr. Chair.
Ms. KING-HINDS. [Presiding.] Thank you.
I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from New Hampshire for 5 min-
utes.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Madam Chair, thank you.
To our witnesses, I just want to thank you so much for being
here today. I know you are not doing it for the ’gram. And I have
a confession to make. Herb and I had to Google what that meant,
but now we know, and we know you are not doing it for the ’gram.
You are doing it for America.
And so I am farming your aura, another phrase I didn’t know
about until today, so thank you for that. Because you are talking
about freedom; you are talking about fairness; you are talking
about public safety in the most important arena of the present and
the future, and that is the digital world.
Much of what has been discussed today really cuts across small
businesses across our country. You know, you have talked about
the high cost of doing business both because of regulatory red tape,
and I am making lists and taking names. You show me red tape.
Let’s work together to cut it. That is why I am on this Committee.
You have talked about the high cost of lawless trade wars, and
I want to thank you, Mr. Appell—am I pronouncing that right?
Mr. APPELL. Appell.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Appell. Jesse.
Mr. APPELL. Yes.
Ms. GOODLANDER.—for quantifying just part of the invoice
that you are paying as a result of these trade wars.
We have got a bill, the Small Business Liberation Act, that
would protect small businesses from these lawless trade wars, and,
look, this is basic fairness. You shouldn’t be paying this kind of tax,
and it is especially ironic for someone who has got a tea shop, be-
cause we all know how this great experiment, the United States of
America, began.
But I want to say, you know, the creator economy, when we talk
about the creator economy, Ms. Brennan, you mentioned 77 percent
of small businesses use social media. I agree with you. That is, I
would think, a real undercount, and I see it every day on this job.
You know, I was in a great town in my district, Littleton, New
Hampshire. I met a fellow millennial who owns a small business
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
28
called Tailswag, and it is an amazing—it is right on main street
in Littleton, New Hampshire. It is a pet boutique, a treat bar. I
had never been to a small business quite like this.
You know, she has used social media so effectively, and I will
give you all a pitch. Dachtoberfest is happening. Littleton, New
Hampshire, October 4, 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. She advertised this on the
’gram, among other social media platforms. And as a direct result
of this one post, we saw a booming business in Littleton, New
Hampshire.
It is a win, win, win. Everyone wins when these platforms can
be used to the effect that we all want to see them being used for.
Now, I came to Congress having worked in the Department of
Justice in the Antitrust Division. So I spent a lot of time thinking
about the harms and abuses of power we see from Big Tech monop-
olists. And, you know, you have touched on so many today, but I
really want to invite you—and I am going to be sending you, I hope
it is okay, questions for the record, because there is so much in
your testimony that I think we could really benefit from in this
Committee.
But I wanted to just put the question out. You know, part of the
challenge with Big Tech monopolists is they are really these days
getting to make big decisions about who gets heard and who gets
paid and how much. And I just—I want to throw this out to the
panel.
And I am sorry I have taken up so much time in my questions
because I am just so grateful that you are here, and I hope we can
stay in close touch.
When you think about—you mentioned there are many methods
of being paid, but when you think about how Big Tech gatekeepers,
Big Tech monopolists are actually controlling the purse strings and
controlling the microphones, what would you point us to as your
top priorities for barriers that you are facing that you really believe
Congress has got to tackle?
Ms. MORAN. I can start.
I think payment terms. I think, a lot of these payment terms are
net 60 and net 90, meaning creators aren’t being paid for 2 or 3
months after the work, if they even get paid at all. I think having
thresholds. Maybe if it is under a certain amount, it needs to be
net 30.
I don’t know. There are so many different ways that this could
be framed, but having some sort of regulation on payment terms
would be really, really helpful. And I think also having, you know,
in our termination clauses that if the creator terminates for what-
ever reason—life happens, things happen—force majeure clauses
and pro rata shares in our termination clauses are really helpful.
I think also indemnification clauses, limitations of liability, caps on
damages. Creators are small businesses. We can’t go up against a
Big Tech company and have unlimited damages. We don’t have
that money.
Ms. GOODLANDER. And you don’t have an army of lawyers to
do it.
Ms. MORAN. No.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, my time has passed, but I want to
thank you all and really look forward to working with you.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00032 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
29
Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the Northern Mariana Is-
lands, the great Northern Mariana Islands for 5 minutes.
Mrs. KING-HINDS. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Rank-
ing Member, and Hafa Adai.
So I credit my election to my relationship with social media
influencers. I come from the island of Tinian, and the island of
Tinian has one of the smallest population in the Northern Mariana
Islands. And no one from my island ever wins a commonwealth-
wide election. I am the first, and I credit that, basically, to the
work that was put in by Palm Treo. I have to give them a shout-
out because they totally helped out.
And I also had the privilege of hosting the first ever Palm Treo
social media awards. And this is where I kind of learned, you
know, the value and the importance and all the work that goes be-
hind content creating.
And as I sit here and as I listen to what Ms. Goodlander was
talking about, right, you know, just the intricacies of these con-
versations, and I think about the social media influencers back
home who are struggling to go, you know, from having an online
presence into actually developing a sustainable business, and as I
tie in Mr. Luciano’s statement about, you know, just the challenge
in terms of classification, right, and what all this means with re-
gards to regulations, IRS taxes, and so that is the kind of conversa-
tion that I want to have with all of you today.
And I want to hear more from you, Ms. Moran, because you are
an attorney and, obviously, you have helped a lot of these people
get through some of these legal hurdles. And so if you could just
start off by kind of sharing, you know, what are those—what are
a couple of the top barriers that these entries to the market are—
that Congress can assist with in terms of regulations?
Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I think to Nick’s point earlier about not
knowing how to classify yourself on a cap table, I think a lot of
times the mindset of an entrepreneur as a small business, once you
start making money, you are now a business. So I think having
them have guidance from the SBA and other organizations. You
know, access to lawyers who can help them draft an operating
agreement or file for their LLC. Knowing what address to put on
an LLC, because some States don’t let you put a P.O. box, but you
don’t want your address publicly out there because for mental
health and safety concerns.
So I think having guidance on when and how to formalize a busi-
ness could be really helpful.
Ms. KING-HINDS. Okay. How about we just move down the line
and get your thoughts on the matter.
Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. Yeah, I would agree with Ms.
Moran. Education is a huge component to this. You know, how do
you classify yourself? It is for the people who don’t have access to
all the things a management firm may bring—attorneys, account-
ants, things like that. So really education on what they can do to
build their business would be crucial. Thank you.
Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I will touch on what Kayla said, but just
classifying yourself. Like, there were no resources for me to under-
stand in order to go from once I am making money to this thresh-
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
30
old to now I am making this amount of money, okay, I need to be
classified as an S corp and pay myself a proper payroll, right. So
I had to learn all of that myself.
And then I have had to seek out resources to understand what
I am actually trying to do. So that is why my whole accountant
team, their entire team just works with creators alone, because I
have actually had the other—my other accountant team, they
didn’t know how to classify me, and I had to go re-amend all my
taxes from the past couple of years.
So those are some challenges I face as a creator.
Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Congresswoman. I agree with every-
thing that they have said as well. I would add an extra loop, an
extra element to this.
I sell a physical item, and so I sell my tea in every State in the
country. You know, even in like, you know, big cities, you would
be surprised how hard it is to find really good Chinese tea. So that
means that I have to pay State sales tax in every State in the
country. That means a separate registration in every State income
tax board.
I hire a third-party company to do this, which is just a total loss
to the business in terms of the processing fee that I need to pay
them to be able to register 50 different times. Some are quarterly.
Some are every year. Some are, you know, biannually.
There are different definitions of what makes a nexus of sales
that requires me to register. Every State has different amounts
that you have to pass before you have to register. It is a very con-
fusing system, and I am not sure federally what can be done about
that, but as a small business who is trying to pay their State sales
taxes, it is incredibly difficult. And if I didn’t, basically, just pay
somebody else to solve that problem for me, there is absolutely no
way I could do it.
Ms. KING-HINDS. All right. I am about to run out of time, but
before I do, I want to give a shout-out to Zori Talks and Eddie C
who are amazing content creators from the CNMI.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield my time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now ask Mr. Olszewski from the great State of Maryland for
5 minutes.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Chairman Williams. I
want to thank our Ranking Member Velázquez, and to our wit-
nesses, for your time today. It is truly exciting to be with you to
discuss the social media landscape that has led many Americans to
entrepreneurial adventures beyond their wildest dreams.
Back home in Maryland’s Second, local social media accounts like
Marianne Mehrer’s Home Sweet Baltimore are helping to con-
tribute to the success of businesses in our region. Marianne pro-
vides amazing real estate advice through her content while also
shouting out some great small businesses that stimulate Mary-
land’s economy. Douglas Clayton has a Charm City Food Adven-
tures account that uplifts local restaurants and food festivals. And
these are the constituents, like all of you, who are creating busi-
ness opportunities for themselves while also boosting brick and
mortar businesses and small businesses in our district. It is such
a positive thing.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
31
But we know that as these industries arise, the federal govern-
ment has to make sure that we are working harder to support and
protect our constituents from the harms that can and do exist on-
line. As the father of a young daughter who just started fourth
grade this year, I am especially acutely aware of the dangers that
our children are exposed to online in particular.
In Maryland, our State police have launched the Internet Crimes
Against Children Task Force, alongside 61 task forces across the
nation. They have partnered with State, local, and federal law en-
forcement on a month-long initiative to combat online child exploi-
tation. The task force has initiated 595 investigations, resulting in
41 arrests and 17 child victims rescued from ongoing abuse.
While it is horrific that resources even need to be used to combat
these crimes, there is no excuse not to battle this epidemic head-
on in a bipartisan way.
So I look forward to advancing bipartisan legislation that works
to protect everyone online, both from crimes as well as the hate
speech which is so pervasive today. We know the web is a powerful
tool that can connect Americans in positive ways, and that is need-
ed now more than ever.
So with that, I will ask a question of all the panelists, and I hope
I can save time for one other issue for Ms. Moran. But I just want
to ask everyone, what actions might you recommend Congress take
that can both help us better protect children from being exposed to
violence, harassment, hate speech, and more, while also ensuring
that you can do your jobs and grow your businesses effectively? I
think there is a balance to be struck, but we want to be doing both.
So I just want to open it up for the panel.
Mr. APPELL. I think from my perspective, I really like the idea
of saying—you know, looking at the internet as a village, and if
somebody breaks the law in the village once, do you let them create
another account? Do you let them create another hundred ac-
counts? Do you have some sort of thing that they have to go
through where they recognize the problem that they had with the
first account and with the first speech before they are able to go
on and then continue to speak?
I think different issues should be dealt with differently, but I like
the idea of having the internet be full of people that are, you know,
being righteous actors. And if there are people that are problematic
actors, that they are just not allowed right back onto the internet
immediately with no problem after they have been caught.
Mr. LUCIANO. I would say for me it starts with, like, the par-
ents at home, with really just filtering the amount of screen time
that kids have because that can—down the line, especially because
I am really big into mental health, that can, you know, carry down
through generations. So just starting with the parents and really
educating on what it means to limit screen time and—yeah.
Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah, I would agree with Mr. Appell. Repeat of-
fenders cannot be on those platforms. If there is an issue, whether
it is dealing with a child or whether it is dealing with an adult get-
ting harassed, and there is, you know, a process where it goes
through discovery beyond just AI, because I know some of the plat-
forms just look at AI and there is no human interaction, that needs
to be dealt with, and it needs to be dealt with and addressed by
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
32
another human being. It can’t just be banned, here we go, we are
done. Maybe some intervention further than that would be helpful.
Thank you.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Ms. Moran, in addition to your answer on this,
if you can also respond to—I know that you have called the TikTok
ban and President Trump’s repeated short-term delays an emo-
tional roller coaster. In your 30 seconds, if you can both answer
that question and elaborate on what you mean by that roller coast-
er.
Ms. MORAN. Sure. I think the Coogan laws—you know, States
like California, Utah, Illinois have passed Coogan laws for child
performers having trust accounts. Parents have to put a percentage
away that is in a trust for children that when they turn 18 they
can access.
We have seen this a lot with actors like Jennette McCurdy from
iCarly. You know, when her mom passed away, she got access to
her income and realized that it was all gone. Her parents took it.
And she is not the only one.
Children performers’, family vlog channels are very popular on
YouTube and TikTok, and these creators are being exploited by
their own parents for money, and they are not getting to see any
of that. So I think federalizing Coogan laws or incentivizing States
to pass Coogan-type laws would be really, really helpful.
And then with the TikTok ban, I think—I mean, Jesse and Nick
have said it too, but it hurts not knowing, you know, can I post
content today? Is anyone going to see it? You know, not knowing
that TikTok got pushed back, I created a lot of content during the
ban in December and January. I was abroad. I was in Europe, and
I was waking up early to talk about it.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is up.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you for that.
I thank the Chairman for his indulgence.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Next, I now recognize Mr. Jack from the
great State of Georgia for 5 minutes.
Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I
want to commend you and the staff of this incredible Committee
on convening this hearing. It is exciting. As a member of the gen-
eration of many of our panelists, it is exciting to see you all accom-
plishing incredible things.
And I am curious. One of the questions I would love to start with
is, as somebody who obviously follows, you know, content creators
that are working to generate small business leads for people across
my community, I am interested in talking about search engine opti-
mization. I am interested in learning how you all navigate that.
So we can go down the line, and we will start with Ms. Moran.
I would love for you to explain to this Committee how you navigate
the topic of SEO.
Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I mean, I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t
for SEO. You know, Danielle found me through Instagram, and
now Instagram is searchable. When you Google someone, you
know, whatever was in the caption of your post or your video on
Instagram now comes up on Google. That was recent as of like I
think 2 weeks ago.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
33
So I think, you know, platforms are starting to understand that
search engine optimization is not just for small businesses and
marketing of products and service-based businesses but also cre-
ator content, because there is a lot of really great education, and
there are a lot of really great businesses using social media because
it is cost-effective. It is more affordable for businesses to use digital
marketing than traditional multimillion dollar productions and
commercials.
Mr. JACK. Wonderful. Thank you.
Please.
Ms. BRENNAN. I think we are seeing the rise of blogging again,
which is an interesting platform that kind of took a little bit of a
break. And as there is more competition in SEO, it will become
costlier. So going back to education and resources, as well as fund-
ing for these small businesses will help them compete in an ever-
growing landscape.
Mr. JACK. On what platforms are you seeing that expansion of
blogging? Is it now that X has long-form posts, or are you seeing
it in different—I mean, it used to be Tumblr, but I am curious
what it is now.
Ms. BRENNAN. That is a great question. So there is SEO on the
platforms and then there is traditional blogs. So a lot of these cre-
ators have their own websites where they are SEO-ing various
things. And Substack, yes. Thank you. Substack as well.
Mr. JACK. Sure. Thank you.
Please.
Mr. LUCIANO. So me personally, as a creator, I rely more on
SEO with optimizing my landing pages for where I am trying to
drive traffic, but as far as online creation, I am really in the space
of like audience retention. So I build my platforms as far as like
strong hooks, ping points, et cetera, going down to the bare bones
of marketing.
So the SEO for me is literally just trying to optimize my pages
of where I am driving traffic online. But organically, I want people
to connect with me with strong hooks, ping points, resolutions, calls
to actions, stuff like that.
Mr. JACK. Helpful context.
Please.
Mr. APPELL. Yes. Thank you, Congressman, for your question.
I agree with Mr. Luciano. I feel like as a creator, if I do a really
good job of making awesome content, making videos, sharing what
I know and what I care about, that those people will fight through
bad searches to find my website. But if I just have a mediocre—
mediocre at everything, SEO will not save me.
Now, that is kind of my mentality. I don’t know if that is literally
true, like, in the numbers, but I think that is a healthy mentality
to have as a creator, to try to focus on the video.
We do do SEO now, especially as the business has gotten bigger,
to try to get more people who may have seen a video of mine once
on a train 7 months ago and now they want tea. You know, that
can help that person find my website if they have already had a
real interaction with me online.
But I think that as a business owner, you are asking—I would
be asking a lot of SEO to convert somebody who has like never
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
34
seen me, doesn’t know the brand, doesn’t know the tea. That is not
really how I would look to use it. I think it is that final push to
get somebody who already does know you up to the top of the list.
Mr. JACK. Wonderful. And I have got just a minute left. So I am
curious, on an analytics perspective, if you could share with the
Committee, are you using Google Trend? What analytic structure
are you using to help at least see how successful your advertising
has been?
And we can start with you and go as far as we can.
Ms. MORAN. I mean, each platform has its own analytics tools.
I think Google Alerts are great to see, you know, what people are
searching for and what comes up when they are searching. But I
have a newsletter on beehiiv, and beehiiv has really great analytics
for email open rates and, you know, click rates within an email,
but each platform has its own tools.
Mr. JACK. Thank you.
Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah, I think it is really important to look at
the platform specifically, but I do want to voice that there are ag-
gregate platforms that companies can buy, and I hate to say it but
a lot of times they are wrong. So businesses are then getting this
data, and it is based on things that aren’t correct.
So there is another, I guess you could say, issue that needs to
be addressed there. Thank you.
Mr. JACK. Thank you.
Please.
Mr. LUCIANO. My bread and butter has always been audience
retention, so I look at retention curves and I look at, you know—
I mean, TikTok specifically has done a great job of including more
analytics of where we can improve our videos.
Mr. JACK. Thank you.
Lastly.
Mr. APPELL. Yeah. I also look at creator—like, the interaction.
If I am getting great comments from people that really care about
what I am talking about, I kind of hope that the rest of it is going
well. But, you know, in terms of raw analytics, I use the Google
Analytics platform.
Mr. JACK. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chairman, I think this is a great hearing. I appreciate you
for convening it, and I yield back my time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Schmidt for 5 minutes.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you
for convening this, thank the witnesses, and express my apologies
for my late arrival. It wasn’t a lack of interest. I will never get back
the last 5 hours of my life in the Judiciary Committee with Direc-
tor Patel. And it was a—let’s just say I am in the mindset where
sort of the darkness of human nature is currently on my mind. So
this is uplifting.
Tea would do it. That would be fantastic, yeah. Although Kash
would say it is spiked with something we imported from China. So,
you know, it is a whole different deal.
So sort of in that spirit, let me ask you a question. It is kind of
the flip side of what our colleague from Maryland asked you. He
asked you your initial thoughts using the illustration of child ex-
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00038 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
35
ploitation and ICAC work online, you know, what can be done to
make things safe. Let me ask you the flip side of that.
One of the things the Director said to us repeatedly today in
multiple contexts—and it wasn’t an internet hearing. It was a
wide-ranging around the world, and yet he came back I think four
or five times when asked, you know, what is the one thing we could
do in Congress that would make America safer. And he said, give
us more eyes and tools to find bad guys doing bad things online.
It was a constant theme.
Let’s assume for the sake of discussion we take that advice and
try to figure out from very smart people what things we could do
that would be helpful. From your vantage point, what should we
be keeping in mind so that we don’t throw the baby out with the
bath water, kill the goose that laid the golden egg—pick the meta-
phor that you want—but so we don’t foul up the good things you
are doing online while we are trying to address the really awful
things a lot of folks are doing online?
We can just go down the line.
Mr. APPELL. I may have a little unconventional angle on this
because I spent 10 years in China doing Chinese social media. And
in China, political interests were always the thing that was dic-
tating what the people who are regulating the internet were doing.
It wasn’t business. It wasn’t art. It was politics.
And so I think finding a way that if we have the eyes and the
ears to be able to go and catch bad people on the internet, that it
can be done in a data-forward way as opposed to a politics-forward
way. And make sure that those tools are used and people know
that they are being adjudicated fairly and not because of any given
political cycle. Thank you.
Mr. LUCIANO. I will actually give you an interesting story on
this topic of the bad guys. My dad was robbed. I am from Mary-
land. My dad lives in Maryland, and his Side-by-Side was stolen.
And me as a creator, I went to the internet and was like, hey, this
is the footage. This is what happened. And literally the entire—I
am from Cecil County, Maryland. Cecil County came together
through comments and through—like singular comments of people
going to work at 4 a.m. in the morning, I saw that Side-by-Side
riding down the road. And through that we were able to catch the
guy.
So I think things like that are really great, and social media has
that community aspect where, even if it is not regulated, like, sin-
gle comments can help things like that go a long way to catch the
bad guys.
Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. And I think there was a documen-
tary around cats that did something similar where there were
internet sleuths around there. I won’t say the name of the docu-
mentary. You will have to look that one up.
But as far as, you know, using AI for good, scraping is wonderful,
because if we can catch these guys before the content even airs,
and I am talking about explicit images, things that have to do with
children, I mean, that is a win.
Now, the guidelines need to be clear and explicit. So that is a
very, very, very important factor in this sort of, I guess you could
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
36
say, content policing and, you know, the safety of our kids. Thank
you.
Ms. MORAN. And I will zoom out a little bit from just the AI
aspect of it, but I think mental health, which I think we can all
attest to, community. Brands can build businesses using commu-
nity. They can build community first and then launch a product,
and then they have sales immediately built into that.
But I think also, at least for me, I wouldn’t be here today if I
hadn’t had a community online when I was in law school in my
darkest days, and the rise of social media really allowed me to have
a voice and share it and find like-minded people.
And I think for children as well, there are really great tools.
There are a lot of, you know, learn how to read, learn how to color,
learn your numbers, online educational programming using social
media that could be really, really helpful.
And I think if we regulate and disclose when AI or bad actors
are being, you know—when they are caught and they are taken
down and banned from using the platform so more good content
can keep coming up.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Thank you.
Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Patronis from the great State of Florida for
5 minutes.
Mr. PATRONIS. Thank you, Chairman. Thank y’all for being
here.
I am not going to try to lead with questions—or lead you with
my questions I am asking, but let’s talk Section 230. How impor-
tant is its existence to each of you?
Ms. MORAN. Can you expand on the section, please?
Mr. PATRONIS. If we repealed Section 230, would your life
change?
Ms. MORAN. Can you expand what the section is for those who
don’t know?
Mr. PATRONIS. Oh, Section 230 is providing liability protection
to social media companies.
Ms. MORAN. I mean, I think that would be really helpful, espe-
cially from the legal perspective. I think, again, the education, the
regulation, the disclosure, limiting liability for creators if they are,
you know, being the one violating these platforms. But I think the
platforms being regulated and held accountable.
Mr. PATRONIS. Sure.
Ms. BRENNAN. I don’t know enough about the section to be able
to talk about it. As far as limitation of liability as far as creators
are concerned, that would be very helpful in navigating the busi-
ness and the landscape that is ever changing. Thank you.
Mr. PATRONIS. Great. Thank you.
Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I don’t know enough about the section to
form an opinion on it.
Mr. PATRONIS. Got you.
Mr. APPELL. I don’t know specifically about that section either,
other than I think the responsibility on the side of both the plat-
forms and the creators is important. If we all know that everybody
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00040 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
37
has responsibility for what they are putting up, you generally will
get better actions, I think.
Mr. PATRONIS. Cool. So parent of a 14-year-old and a 17-year-
old. It is fascinating. When I was a kid, I would open up this cata-
log called JCPenney, and I would circle all the things I wanted for
Christmas in it. Now, because of what my children now are able
to find, they are writing very detailed lists because of how they
have been influenced on social media of the exact model, color,
style, model number of what they want. It is crazy. Their desire for
different colognes and how social media has steered—you are
laughing because you know exactly what I am talking about, and
it is so stinking powerful.
So now here is my concern. Should the liability—if we were going
to try to regulate this for the health of our kids, is it easier for us
to say, all right, Congress, if you want to fix this, why don’t you
just fix it with two players, and that is Apple and Google, or do
you go out there and create a solution that is going to affect every
social media company, or do you do both?
I would love any input you have about that.
Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah. Thank you for that question. I think it
needs to be everything, because we don’t know the next social
media platform and how fast it is going to grow. So instead of
being, you know, perhaps, behind, we get ahead. And I also think
it is really important to look at biometric information and how that
is being collected and how that is being used.
Mr. PATRONIS. Elaborate.
Ms. BRENNAN. So I know Illinois, I think back in 2008, passed
the Biometric Information Privacy Act, and that has to deal with—
and, again, please look into this, but to my understanding, it dealt
with written consent, clear consent. And as soon as the content or
the information that was being, you know, collected was done with,
they delete it and it couldn’t be sold.
So I think we need to look into that as far as, not only collecting
content, but when companies buy it, can they pair it up with the
users there so they can create a full, you know, image.
And I know the EU—I will let Ms. Moran speak to that. And the
legal implications did pass some, you know, data protection acts.
Mr. PATRONIS. Yeah, I think they are a little more—a little
stronger in their protections than here.
Ms. MORAN. I mean, in general, the EU has a lot stronger pro-
tections for things, even beauty products and chemicals and things.
So, yeah, I think looking to other countries that have done similar
things.
I like the idea of biometric regulation. You know, companies, you
know—an influencer’s swimwear line, they use where their cus-
tomers are coming from. You know, how many times did they shop
this year? What colors do they like? What prints do they like to,
you know, design new collections. But how much information are
they really getting? And, yeah, what are they doing with it? Maybe
they are not selling it, but bad actors are coming in and hacking
into it and selling it.
Mr. PATRONIS. So do you think—again, getting back to the
question, do you think, if Congress was going to act on trying to
create some protections, do we just put the expectations on Google
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00041 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
38
and Apple because they have the market share, or do you go and
pivot to Facebook, Meta, Twitter, TikTok?
Ms. MORAN. I think, as Christina said, I think everybody. I
think those two for sure, Apple, Google. Start there. Meta, they are
a monolith. You know, they own Instagram, they own Edits, they
own—what is the other one? They own WhatsApp. You know, they
are huge.
So I think going after Meta as well, and then through TikTok
and Snap Inc. Even Uber and Lyft, you know, they are using social
media as well. The dating apps. Like, everybody.
Mr. PATRONIS. Yeah. Don’t get me started on dating apps.
Mr. APPELL. And then just very briefly, I think it is a good
thing for the country if everybody plays by the same rules. But that
being said, if we do have one or two parties that are just bigger,
making sure those people play by the rules as a way to make sure
everybody else knows the rules have changed would be great.
Mr. PATRONIS. Great. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is up. I appreciate you all.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
What a great hearing this has been. We appreciate all of you,
and I would like to thank all of our witnesses for your testimony
and for appearing before us today.
Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to submit ad-
ditional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the
Chair which will be forwarded to the witnesses. So I ask the wit-
nesses to please respond promptly if that happens.
And if there is no further business, without objection, the Com-
mittee is adjourned. And we want to come down and shake your
hand, so don’t leave yet.
Thank you.
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00042 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
39
APPENDIX
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 39 here 61899.001
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00043 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
40
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 40 here 61899.002
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
41
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 41 here 61899.003
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00045 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
42
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 42 here 61899.004
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
43
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 43 here 61899.005
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00047 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
44
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 44 here 61899.006
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00048 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
45
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 45 here 61899.007
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00049 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
46
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 46 here 61899.008
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
47
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 47 here 61899.009
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00051 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
48
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 48 here 61899.010
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00052 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
49
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 49 here 61899.011
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00053 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
50
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 50 here 61899.012
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00054 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
51
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 51 here 61899.013
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00055 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
52
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 52 here 61899.014
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00056 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
53
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 53 here 61899.015
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00057 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
54
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 54 here 61899.016
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00058 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
55
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 55 here 61899.017
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00059 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
56
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 56 here 61899.018
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00060 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
57
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 57 here 61899.019
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00061 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
58
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 58 here 61899.020
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00062 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
59
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 59 here 61899.021
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00063 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
60
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 60 here 61899.022
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00064 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
61
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 61 here 61899.023
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00065 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
62
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 62 here 61899.024
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00066 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
63
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 63 here 61899.025
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00067 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
64
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 64 here 61899.026
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00068 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
65
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 65 here 61899.027
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00069 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
66
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 66 here 61899.028
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00070 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
67
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 67 here 61899.029
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00071 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
68
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 68 here 61899.030
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00072 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
69
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 69 here 61899.031
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00073 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
70
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 70 here 61899.032
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00074 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
71
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 71 here 61899.033
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00075 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
72
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 72 here 61899.034
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00076 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
73
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 73 here 61899.035
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00077 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
74
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 74 here 61899.036
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00078 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
75
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 75 here 61899.037
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00079 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
76
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 76 here 61899.038
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00080 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
77
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 77 here 61899.039
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00081 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
78
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 78 here 61899.040
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00082 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
79
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 79 here 61899.041
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00083 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
80
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 80 here 61899.042
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00084 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
81
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 81 here 61899.043
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00085 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
82
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 82 here 61899.044
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00086 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
83
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 83 here 61899.045
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00087 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
84
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 84 here 61899.046
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00088 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
85
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 85 here 61899.047
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00089 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
86
Æ
SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 86 here 61899.048
VerDate Mar 15 2010 13:01 Feb 03, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00090 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6011 F:\DOCS\61899.TXT DEBBIE
File and source
- File
- CHRG-119hhrg61899.pdf
- Size
- 32,035,422 bytes
- SHA-256
- 205f0ec9b202eabc1d339fcfdf511a2192ea5d790d4caf2def213c1c5c444a2d
- Our copy
- CHRG-119hhrg61899.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov