Status Conference (January 30, 2023) — United States v. Mark Scott Grenon, Jonathan David Grenon, Jordan Paul Grenon and Joseph Timothy Grenon, No. 21-cr-20242-CMA (Dkt. 286, S.D. Fla.)
Summary
This is the transcript of a status conference on January 30, 2023 before Chief U.S. District Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga in Case No. 21-cr-20242-CMA in the Southern District of Florida, entered on the docket 12/30/2023 as Document 286. The defendants Mark, Jonathan, Jordan and Joseph Grenon appeared with standby counsel. The hearing was set to address Paul Donnelly's motion to withdraw from representing Joseph Grenon, who had declined to meet with counsel; Paul Donnelly said the role of standby counsel had been misunderstood. At the government's request the court found the defendants competent to stand trial. Asked whether they wanted appointed counsel, the defendants answering for Mark and Joseph replied, "I am not that name."
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Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 1 of 19
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
2 MIAMI DIVISION
CASE NO. 21-cr-20242-CMA
3
4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Miami, Florida
5 Plaintiff, January 30, 2023
6 vs. 11:19 a.m. to 11:44 a.m.
7 MARK SCOTT GRENON, JONATHAN Courtroom 13-3
DAVID GRENON, JORDAN PAUL
8 GRENON and JOSEPH TIMOTHY (Pages 1 to 19)
GRENON,
9
Defendants.
10
STATUS CONFERENCE
11 BEFORE THE HONORABLE CECILIA M. ALTONAGA,
CHIEF UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
12
APPEARANCES:
13
FOR THE GOVERNMENT: MICHAEL HOMER, ESQ.
14 JOHN SHIPLEY, ESQ.
Assistant United States Attorney
15 99 Northeast Fourth Street
Miami, FL 33132-2131
16 (305) 961-9289
(305) 961-9111
17 Michael.homer@usdoj.gov
John.shipley@usdoj.gov
18
FOR DEFENDANT MARK SABRINA VORA-PUGLISI, ESQ.
19 SCOTT GRENON: (Standby Counsel)
Puglisi Carames
20 1900 North Bayshore Drive, Suite 1A
Miami, FL 33132-3002
21 (305) 403-8063
Sabrina@puglisicarames.com
22
FOR DEFENDANT ASHLEY KAY, ESQ. (Standby Counsel)
23 JONATHAN DAVID Assistant Federal Public Defender
GRENON: 150 West Flagler Street
24 Miami, FL 33130-1536
(305) 533-4236
25 Ashleydkay@gmail.com
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 2 of 19
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1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED:
2 FOR DEFENDANT JOHN WYLIE, ESQ. (Standby Counsel)
JORDAN PAUL GRENON: John W. Wylie, P.A.
3 40 Northwest 3rd Street, Ph 1
Miami, FL 33128-1838
4 (305) 586-1338
Jww@johnwylielaw.com
5
FOR DEFENDANT PAUL DONNELLY, ESQ. (Standby Counsel)
6 JOSEPH TIMOTHY Paul J. Donnelly, P.A.
GRENON: 1 Northeast 2nd Avenue, Suite 200
7 Miami, FL 33132-2523
(305) 757-3331
8 Donnellylaw@bellsouth.net
9 REPORTED BY: STEPHANIE A. McCARN, RPR
Official Court Reporter
10 400 North Miami Avenue
Thirteenth Floor
11 Miami, Florida 33128
(305) 523-5518
12 Stephanie_McCarn@flsd.uscourts.gov
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Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 3 of 19
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1 I N D E X
2 WITNESSES
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WITNESSES FOR THE GOVERNMENT: Page
4 --
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WITNESSES FOR THE DEFENDANTS: Page
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EXHIBITS
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EXHIBITS IN EVIDENCE IDENTIFIED ADMITTED
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15 MISCELLANEOUS
16 Page
Proceedings....................................... 4
17 Court Reporter's Certificate...................... 19
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1 (The following proceedings were held at 11:19 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: United States and Jonathan Grenon, Jordan
3 Grenon and Joseph Timothy Grenon.
4 MR. HOMER: Good morning, Your Honor. Michael Homer
5 and John Shipley on behalf of the United States.
6 MS. VORA-PUGLISI: Would you like us to just sit back
7 here?
8 THE COURT: Wherever you'd like to sit is fine.
9 (Pause in proceedings.)
10 THE COURT: Although I would imagine I would need to
11 hear from Mr. Donnelly.
12 MR. DONNELLY: I may have misunderstood my role. I
13 thought at the last hearing, we were elevated.
14 THE COURT: Oh, I don't think you've been elevated
15 quite yet.
16 (Pause in proceedings.)
17 THE COURT: That's all right. We'll clear it up. We
18 will have them out here and see what they have to say.
19 (Pause in proceedings.)
20 THE COURT: Mr. Wylie, you've been appointed as
21 standby counsel as well, right?
22 MR. WYLIE: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 (Pause in proceedings.)
25 THE COURT: Please be seated.
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 5 of 19
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1 We have with us today the Defendants, Mark, Jonathan,
2 Jordan and Joseph Grenon. We also have standby counsel for
3 each of the Defendants present as well. The case was set on my
4 calendar this morning to address Mr. Donnelly's motion to
5 withdraw from further representation of Joseph Grenon because
6 Mr. Donnelly has attempted on several occasions to meet with
7 his client and has been advised at FDC that Mr. Grenon did not
8 want to meet with him.
9 Mr. Donnelly, do you wish to proceed with that motion
10 or do you wish to withdraw it given that your role is standby
11 counsel?
12 MR. DONNELLY: Yes, Judge. I misunderstood the
13 hearing last before the Court. I thought that we had used the
14 term "elevated" to be regular counsel, and that was my
15 misunderstanding. So as I mailed correspondence to Joseph
16 Grenon and went to see him, I thought we were in a different
17 role.
18 So based on that and the fact that it was standby
19 only, I would withdraw the motion. I understand Mr. Grenon's
20 refusal.
21 THE COURT: Very good. Thank you.
22 And we have the Defendants present with regard to that
23 issue.
24 Mr. Joseph Grenon, is there anything you wanted to say
25 or be heard on today?
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1 DEFENDANT JOSEPH: I am not that name. I am the
2 beneficiary only of that name. And I am the living man Joseph
3 and here by special appearance. Let the record reflect that
4 the living man, I, do not consent to having a lawyer and do not
5 have an attorney.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 And is there anything that the other Defendants would
8 like to say or be heard on today?
9 DEFENDANT JONATHAN: Yes. I am not the name. I am
10 the beneficiary only of that name. And I am the living man
11 Jonathan and here by special appearance. Let the record
12 reflect that I, the living man Jonathan, wish to have the case
13 discharged. And also let the record reflect that I, living man
14 Jonathan, will petition the Supreme Court.
15 THE COURT: All right. Anything additional from the
16 other two Defendants?
17 DEFENDANT MARK: Yes. Let the record reflect, here by
18 special appearance, I am the living man called Mark. I am not
19 the name. I am only the beneficiary of that name. I wish to
20 have this case discharged and my sons and I released.
21 THE COURT: All right. Anything else from the
22 remaining Defendant?
23 DEFENDANT JORDAN: I am not that name. I am the
24 beneficiary only of that name. Let the record reflect that I,
25 living man Jordan, do not consent to having a lawyer, and I do
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 7 of 19
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1 not have an attorney. I am here by special appearance.
2 Cecilia, I wish to see your oath of office. Let the
3 record reflect that I was not answered.
4 I wish to -- does the prosecuting attorney have a
5 license to practice law? Let the record reflect that I was not
6 answered.
7 I would like to state a U.S. Supreme Court decision.
8 The common law is the real law, the supreme law of the land.
9 The codes, rules, regulations, policies and statutes are not
10 the law. Self vs. Rhay, 61 Wn. 2d 261.
11 Also, all codes, rules and regulations are for
12 Government authorities only, not human/creators, in accordance
13 with God's laws. All codes, rules and regulations are
14 unconstitutional and lacking due process. Rodrigues vs. Ray
15 Donavan, U.S. Department of Labor, 769 F.2d 1344, 1348 (1985).
16 There, every man is independent of all laws except
17 those prescribed by nature. He is not bound by any
18 institutions formed by his fellow man without his consent.
19 Cruden vs. Neale, 2 N.C. 338 (1796) 2 S.E.
20 The Supreme Court also has warned because of what
21 appears to be lawful commands, statutory rules, regulations and
22 codes, ordinances and restrictions on the surface, many
23 citizens, because of their respect for what appears to be law,
24 are cunningly coerced into waiving their rights due to
25 ignorance, deceptive practices, constructive fraud, barratry,
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 8 of 19
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1 legal plunder, conversion and malicious prosecution in inferior
2 administrative state courts. United States vs. Minker, 350
3 U.S. 179, 187, 76 S.Ct 281, 100 L.Ed 185 (1956).
4 I will also read the word of God. I believe the Bible
5 is the word of God. Psalms 119:161 says, Princes have
6 persecuted me without a cause, but my heart standeth in awe of
7 thy word. I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great
8 spoil. I hate and abhor lying, but thy law do I love. Seven
9 times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous
10 judgments. Great peace have they which love thy law and
11 nothing shall offend them.
12 Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation and done my
13 commandments. My soul hath kept thy testimonies and I love
14 them exceedingly. I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies
15 for all my ways are before thee.
16 And I do not consent to these proceedings.
17 THE COURT: Thank you.
18 Is there anything the Government wanted to add before
19 we conclude this morning's hearing?
20 MR. HOMER: Thank you, Your Honor. Just two things
21 for the record.
22 The first is with respect to the competency
23 evaluations that were done. All four of the Defendants for
24 Your Honor's sua sponte order underwent BOP competency
25 evaluations. The doctors at BOP, as Your Honor knows, found
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 9 of 19
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1 all four Defendants competent to stand trial; no indication
2 whatsoever to suggest they were incompetent. I would just
3 simply ask Your Honor to find for the record, especially given
4 the Defendants don't dispute those findings, that the
5 Defendants are, in fact, competent to stand trial.
6 THE COURT: I do make that finding.
7 MR. HOMER: Thank you, Your Honor.
8 And the second thing, also in an abundance of caution,
9 those four letters that came in from some unspecified
10 individual in Washington that requested appointed counsel in
11 the fall. We asked the Defendants -- I know Your Honor had
12 denied those motions since they were not from the Defendants or
13 from their counsel.
14 Your Honor, since those letters, I have spoken with
15 two of the Defendants about whether or not they do, in fact,
16 want counsel appointed. I don't believe Your Honor has seen
17 Mark Grenon or Joseph Grenon since receiving those letters
18 until today. By all indications from the Defendants'
19 statements in court today, in their filings, it certainly seems
20 to me that they do not seek appointment of counsel.
21 But I'd simply ask Your Honor to confer with Mark and
22 Joseph that they do, in fact, still intend to proceed pro se,
23 given that someone, apparently on their behalf and with their
24 permission, did request that the Court appoint counsel at some
25 point before they were last here, Your Honor.
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 10 of 19
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1 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. That's a good
2 suggestion.
3 The one who goes by the name of Mark Grenon, did you
4 want counsel appointed to represent you? I have Mr. --
5 Ms. Vora-Puglisi who is here as your standby counsel. But as
6 to the person who goes by Mark Grenon, did you want counsel
7 appointed to represent you?
8 DEFENDANT MARK: I am not that name. I am a living
9 man and I speak for myself. I have never consented to an
10 attorney, and I speak for myself. I do not have an attorney.
11 I do not consent to these proceedings.
12 THE COURT: Right. All right.
13 And as to the one who goes by the name of Joseph
14 Grenon, given the letter that was received, do you wish to have
15 counsel appointed to represent you? You presently have
16 Mr. Donnelly appearing as your standby counsel.
17 DEFENDANT JOSEPH: I am not that name. I am the
18 beneficiary of that name. I am a living man, and I am here by
19 special appearance. And let the record reflect that I, the
20 living man, do not consent to having a lawyer and do not have
21 an attorney. And I would also like to add that I do not
22 consent to these proceedings.
23 And I would like to ask you a question. Do you
24 believe the Holy Scriptures are true and the basis for natural
25 law?
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 11 of 19
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1 THE COURT: I think that concludes these proceedings.
2 MR. HOMER: Thank you, Judge.
3 DEFENDANT JOSEPH: But I am not done here.
4 DEFENDANT JORDAN: I have something to say.
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 DEFENDANT JOSEPH: I still have one more thing to say.
7 Would you answer that question or no? Okay. Let the record
8 reflect she did not answer.
9 Okay. I, the living man, believe that I am commanded
10 by the Holy Scriptures, which are true, and by my creator to go
11 to all the world and preach the gospel and heal the sick. I
12 also believe that our church beliefs, creeds are being
13 attacked, which are -- my God given unalienable rights are
14 being violated.
15 I, ma'am, believe, as said in Matthew 22:37-40, Thou
16 shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy hart, with all thy
17 soul and all thy mind. This is the first and great
18 commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love
19 thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all
20 the law.
21 I believe that -- the following to be my life creeds:
22 Do good deeds, do what is right, help -- good help for all
23 mankind, freedom for all mankind, enlightening others with
24 truth, helping one another and maintaining integrity in all
25 things.
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 12 of 19
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1 And I, man, also believe, as said in Mark 10:19, Thou
2 knowest the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill,
3 do not steal, do not bear false witness, defraud not, honour
4 thy father and mother. These are the things I, man, believe to
5 be the law of nature and commanded by my creator.
6 And I pray for everyone here to come and know Jesus
7 Christ as your personal savior and you will also have eternal
8 life with our creator.
9 DEFENDANT JORDAN: I have something to say.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 DEFENDANT JORDAN: I just noticed that any time that
12 God is mentioned, it seems that darkness or anything that is
13 opposed to him seems to want to run. So I have something to
14 share today, and I -- I'm going to take a little time since I
15 have the time to do it. It's on the record.
16 What do the following biblical, historical, modern day
17 people have in common: Goliath, Haman, Pharaoh, Herod, the
18 Pharisees, the Romans, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Fidel Castro
19 and the dictator Nicolae Ceausescu of Romania? I, the living
20 man, believe that they all were bullies.
21 What does this most famous word mean? The definition
22 of bully is one who is habitually cruel, insulting or
23 threatening to others who are weaker, smaller, in some way
24 vulnerable. And the actions and behavior of a bully, which is
25 called bullying, is abuse and mistreatment of someone
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1 vulnerable by someone stronger or more powerful.
2 If one studies the Bible and history, one will see
3 that bullies do not have the final say and their end is a sure
4 thing. I, the living man, believe what the Bible said David
5 did to Goliath the giant with the help of the Lord; also how
6 evil Haman built the gallow to hang the Jew Mordecai and ended
7 up being hung himself on it. I, man, have already spoken to
8 what happened to Pharaoh. I, man, hope everyone remembers
9 that.
10 King Herod was wicked and abusive and was eaten up of
11 worms and died instantly. The Pharisees and the Romans would
12 abuse the Jewish people and the Christians, and they met their
13 end in due time. I, man, belive that we all should know what
14 happened to Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini. And what about the
15 dictator Fidel Castro; did not Fidel suffer for some time of
16 cancer? Even the most powerful and abusive bullies have their
17 day, also.
18 Matthew 16:26, Jesus says, For what is a man profited
19 if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Or
20 what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
21 I, the living man, believe that the dictator Nicolae
22 Ceausescu of Romania ruled the country with sadistic cruelty
23 for 24 years. Dictator Nicolae and his wife systematically
24 looted billions from the nation's treasury while living like
25 capitalist royalty. I, man, believe he also created a
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1 Securitate with the largest network of spies and informants in
2 eastern Europe. Everyone knew that when the dreaded Securitate
3 hauled anyone away, they were never seen again.
4 But in 1989, Pastor Laszlo Tokes took a stand. He had
5 been told to muzzle his preaching, but Pastor Tokes refused to
6 compromise, so the secret police were coming to arrest him.
7 When told to hide, he said Martin Luther's words, Here
8 I stand. I can do nothing else. If I die, then I die. When
9 the goon squad went to arrest him, 300 parishioners surrounded
10 the church with arms locked in solidarity. Then thousands
11 joined in a revolution that began with tearing down the Berlin
12 Wall six weeks earlier, came to Romania.
13 Two days later, a hundred thousand people stormed
14 headquarters in Timisoar, shouting in unison, God is alive.
15 Jesus is alive. Almost a million people joined, and soon
16 thereafter, Dictator Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu were convicted
17 and executed. A pastor who died himself changed his country,
18 but the dictator who lived for himself was swept into the
19 dustpan of history.
20 I, the living man, believe what the Bible says about
21 how what one sows that he will also reap. I, the living man,
22 and my family have stood our ground in doing the works of our
23 Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Everyone who has gone against the work of the Lord
25 will have to give an account to the almighty God, our Lord and
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 15 of 19
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1 savior, Jesus Christ. Woe to them who have done evil and
2 continue to do evil and woe to those who do not repent from
3 their evil ways.
4 I, man, like what Psalm Chapter 94 says. And I, man,
5 believe what it says; therefore, I, man, recommend all to read
6 it. Here are a few of the final verses. Psalm 94:20-23 says,
7 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee which
8 frameth mischief by a law? They gather themselves together
9 against the soul of the righteous and condemn innocent blood.
10 But the Lord is my defense, and my God is the rock of my
11 refuge. And he shall bring upon them their iniquity and shall
12 cut them off in their own wickedness. Yea, the Lord our God
13 shall cut them off.
14 I, the living man, believe the following words are
15 from a well-known man of God. I belive God has led me to share
16 them today with a few modifications of my own. They have come
17 to a most critical moment as Elijah stood on top of Mount
18 Carmel, cried out to Israel in its hour of decision and between
19 two alters and two Gods. His voice now cries out to America
20 and the world and says to us, Choose this day whom you will
21 serve.
22 70-plus years ago, the chaplain in the United States
23 Senate cried out in the same voice and said to this nation, If
24 the Lord be God, then follow him. But if Baal, then follow him
25 and parish. Revelations Chapter 20, Verse 15 says, And
Case 1:21-cr-20242-CMA Document 286 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/30/2023 Page 16 of 19
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1 whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast
2 into the lake of fire.
3 Today, I, a living man, believe America stands at the
4 crossroads. And as Elijah came to the summit of Mount Carmel
5 to make a declaration, I, man, have come this day here to
6 declare that I, the living man, believe that there is only one
7 God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel and
8 all nations. And I believe he is -- he alone is the rock upon
9 which this nation has come into existence.
10 I, man, believe there is no other name under heaven
11 given among men which we must be saved, that name which we know
12 is Jesus, and its original form is Yeshua. Yeshua means "God
13 is salvation." That is the crux of the matter, not religion or
14 culture but the love of God, that God himself would take our
15 place in our judgment and overcome death, that we could be
16 saved. We will not bow down to Baal or any man for the Lord
17 Jesus Christ is the only true god.
18 John 3:16-21 says, For God so loved the world that he
19 gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him
20 should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not
21 his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world
22 through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not
23 condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already
24 because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten
25 son of God.
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1 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into
2 the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because
3 their deeds were evil, for everyone that doeth evil hateth the
4 light. Neither cometh to the light lest his deeds should be
5 reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that
6 his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God.
7 And that's -- that's what I wanted to read today. God
8 has given everyone in here an opportunity to hear the message
9 of salvation. Don't reject it. Adhere and listen.
10 DEFENDANT MARK: May I say one more thing before we
11 leave?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 DEFENDANT MARK: I, Mark, living man, believe what the
14 Lord our God states in God's Holy Scriptures. The book of
15 Deuteronomy, Chapter 19:15-21 states as follows about being
16 falsely accused: One witness shall not rise up against a man
17 for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth;
18 by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall the matter be
19 established. If a false witness rise up against any man to
20 testify against him that which is wrong, then both the men
21 between whom the controversy is shall stand before the Lord,
22 before the priests and the judges which shall be in those days,
23 and the judges shall make diligent inquisition.
24 And behold, if the witness be false and hath testified
25 falsely against his brother, then shall ye do unto him as he
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1 had thought to have done unto his brother; so shalt thou put
2 the evil away from among you, and those which remain shall hear
3 and fear and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil
4 among you.
5 And then I -- excuse me. And thine eye shall not
6 pity, but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth,
7 hand for hand and foot for foot. I am a living man and I work
8 for God and I believe his word, that this is how accusations
9 are handled, justly by God.
10 Also in the word of God it states how judges and
11 magistrates had to judge all people according to God's laws,
12 the natural laws. In the book of Ezra, Chapter 7, Verses 25
13 and 26, the Lord our God states: And thou, Ezra, after the
14 wisdom of thy God that is in thine hand, set magistrates and
15 judges which may judge all the people that are beyond the river
16 all such as know the laws of thy God and teach ye them that
17 know them not.
18 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God and the
19 law of the King, let judgment be executed speedily upon him,
20 whether it be unto death or to banishment or to confiscation of
21 goods or to imprisonment.
22 And I believe that all that happens in this courtroom
23 is being recorded in the throne room of God, the judge of all,
24 and all will give an account one day to the King of kings and
25 Lord of lords, Jesus Christ. May God's judgment and truth
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1 prevail. Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Thank you very much.
3 This hearing is concluded.
4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I do not consent to these
5 proceedings.
6 (The proceedings adjourned at 11:44 a.m.)
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C E R T I F I C A T E
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10 I hereby certify that the foregoing is an
11 accurate transcription of the proceedings in the
12 above-entitled matter.
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_12/21/2023_
15 DATE STEPHANIE A. McCARN, RPR
Official United States Court Reporter
16 400 North Miami Avenue, Thirteenth Floor
Miami, Florida 33128
17 (305) 523-5518
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