Senate hearing (119th Congress), RUNNING GOVERNMENT LIKE A SMALL BUSINESS: CUT WASTE, CRUSH FRAUD (PDF)
Summary
The printed record of a December 10, 2025 hearing of the Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, S. Hrg. 119–251, titled Running Government Like a Small Business: Cut Waste, Crush Fraud. Opening statements come from Senators Joni Ernst of Iowa and Edward J. Markey of Massachusetts. Witnesses are Luke Rosiak, an investigative reporter at The Daily Wire, who also submitted a real estate slide for the hearing record; Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette of the Project on Government Oversight; and John Hart, Chief Executive Officer of Open the Books, each with a prepared statement.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Full text
S. HRG. 119–251
RUNNING GOVERNMENT LIKE A SMALL BUSINESS:
CUT WASTE, CRUSH FRAUD
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
DECEMBER 10, 2025
Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
(
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
62–296 WASHINGTON : 2026
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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
JONI ERNST, Iowa, Chair
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Ranking Member
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
RAND PAUL, Kentucky JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
TODD YOUNG, Indiana CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
TED BUDD, North Carolina JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
JON HUSTED, Ohio
MEREDITH WEST, Republican Staff Director
SEAN MOORE, Democratic Staff Director
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CONTENTS
DECEMBER 10, 2025
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Joni Ernst, U.S. Senator from Iowa ....................................................................... 1
Edward J. Markey, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts ......................................... 3
WITNESSES
Mr. Luke Rosiak, Investigative Reporter, The Daily Wire .................................. 5
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 8
Submission for the Record—Real Estate Slide .............................................. 12
Mr. Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, Acting Vice President, Policy and Government
Affairs, Project on Government Oversight (POGO) ........................................... 13
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 15
Mr. John Hart, Chief Executive Officer, Open the Books .................................... 24
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 26
Submission for the Record—Graphs of Federal Spending ............................ 28
Dr. Courtney LaFountain, Acting Director, Financial Markets and Commu-
nity Investment, United States Government Accountability Office (GAO) ..... 31
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 33
ADDITIONAL LETTERS/STATEMENTS FOR THE RECORD
Aleut Federal, LLC—Letter Dated December 10, 2025 ....................................... 70
Department of Defense—Letter to Senator Sullivan Dated August 25, 2025 .... 73
GovCon Intelligence—Article Dated December 16, 2025 ..................................... 75
Minority Business Development Agency, U.S. Department of Commerce—
Report Dated June 2022: The Probability of Winning Federal Contracts:
An Analysis of Small Minority Owned Firms .................................................... 80
Montgomery County Chamber of Commerce GovConNet Council—Statement
Dated December 10, 2025 .................................................................................... 102
National Congress of American Indians (NCAI)—Statement Dated December
10, 2025 ................................................................................................................. 108
Old Harbor Native Corporation—Letter Dated December 10, 2025 ................... 111
Poarch Band of Creek Indians—Letter Dated December 10, 2025 ..................... 115
Senator Dan Sullivan—Statement Dated December 10, 2025 ............................. 118
Jessica Tillipman, Associate Dean, The George Washington University Law
School—Statement Dated December 10, 2025 ................................................... 121
United States Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship—
Letter to the U.S. Small Business Administration Dated October 30, 2025 ... 138
White House Council of Economic Advisors—Report Dated December 20,
2024: Racial Disparities in Government Contracting ....................................... 142
Women’s Procurement Circle—Statement Dated December 10, 2025 ................ 171
Alphabetized List of Additional Submissions for the Record, with Cor-
responding Online Links ..................................................................................... 175
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RUNNING GOVERNMENT LIKE A SMALL
BUSINESS: CUT WASTE, CRUSH FRAUD
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2025
UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:31 p.m., in Room
428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Joni Ernst, Chair of the
committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Ernst [presiding], Hawley, Husted, and
Hirono.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST
CHAIR. I call the Committee on Small Business and Entrepre-
neurship to order. We’ve all heard Washington, DC. referred to as
the swamp, but these days, it is looking more and more like a pig-
sty. While Iowa small businesses keep their books neat and tidy
and pinch pennies to balance their own budgets, they are the ones
who are hurt when the government is sloppy and reckless with
hard earned taxpayer dollars.
That’s why I made a promise to Iowans to make Washington
squeal. For over a decade, I’ve been exposing egregious Washington
waste with my monthly Squeal Awards. Some examples are too
outrageous to believe. I’m talking about bureaucrats approving PPP
loans for applicants who used pictures of dolls for IDs; imagine giv-
ing Barbie or Ken a taxpayer-funded loan. Not only that, but they
also believe folks claiming to be over 115 years old were alive and
well enough to be approved for 3,095 PPP and EIDL loans worth
$333 million, including $36,000 to a 157-year-old. That’s pure hog
wash!
But this is only the tip of the iceberg. Instead of boosting Main
Street, millions of your tax dollars were wasted through USAID to
fund Iraqi Sesame Street. And this one is unacceptable: Improper
payments, or the government tossing cash into the wrong trough,
have become commonplace.
In Fiscal Year 2024, federal agencies shoveled out $162 billion in
improper payments. The most frustrating part is how simple it is
to stop this waste. A report by the Pandemic Response Account-
ability Committee found that $79 billion in potential COVID fraud
could have been prevented if four basic questions were asked. One,
is the applicant’s social security number valid? Two, if valid, does
the name connected to that number match the name on the appli-
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cation? Three, does the birthday match? And lastly, is the indi-
(1)
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vidual alive? Seriously, folks that could have saved $79 billion right
there.
The good news is that we can prevent nearly all improper pay-
ments in the future with my DOGE in Spending Act that enacts
common sense guardrails—like those four simple questions. And
these quick fixes could not come soon enough. Six years after
COVID, scammers are still pigging out on SBA relief funds. I’m
proud this committee advanced my SBA Fraud Enforcement Act,
and I’m eager to see it become law.
Fraudsters snout-deep in pandemic-era shuttered venue and res-
taurant funds must be held accountable. Unfortunately, unless my
bill is passed by the Senate and signed into law, many of these
criminals will soon get away with it. During the prior administra-
tion, USAID repeatedly rebuffed my request for information, using
intimidation and shell games to hide where money is going, how
it’s being spent, and why. This is the same agency that handed
cash to violent terrorists, and funded dance classes in Wuhan. Yes,
the same Wuhan you are thinking of.
As a result of my oversight, I discovered firsthand USAID was
a rogue bureaucracy, operating with little accountability and, at
times, at odds with our nation’s best interests. My findings were
confirmed when, this summer, federal prosecutors convicted a
USAID contracting officer who raked in over $1 million in bribes
to steer more than $550 million in contracts to 8(a) program par-
ticipants.
Unfortunately, the SBA’s 8(a) program has been a magnet for
fraudsters since its inception. Decades of government watchdog in-
vestigations, bipartisan oversight hearings, a patchwork of reforms,
and what is there to show for it? Not a shred of evidence that the
program is worth taxpayers’ investment. It is refreshing to see an
administration take fraud as seriously as I do, and I applaud Ad-
ministrator Loeffler’s efforts to end 8(a) program scams for good.
In the meantime, I have launched my own 8(a) investigation and
introduced the Stop 8(a) Contracting Fraud Act to pause 8(a) no-
bid contracts government-wide until the SBA completes its audit.
I am also urging federal agencies government-wide to adopt this
common-sense moratorium.
Make no mistake, this waste hurts all our small businesses the
most. When COVID fraudsters cashed in, thousands of deserving
small businesses in Iowa were left out in the cold because funds
had run dry. When the Biden USAID sent money to every corner
of the world, small businesses here at home footed the bill as their
taxes skyrocketed.
When 8(a) programs divert government contracts to businesses
committing fraud, legitimate small businesses pay the price losing
jobs, revenue, and growth opportunities. Government contracting
should be based on eligibility and merit, not skin color. I promised
to make Washington squeal, and it is clear that this pig pen of a
swamp needs a thorough mucking out.
I want to thank our witnesses for bravely pulling on their rubber
boots and grabbing their buckets. Thank you all very much. Let’s
clean this up for American taxpayers and put our hardworking
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small businesses first. And I do look forward to hearing your testi-
mony.
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I now ask unanimous consent that a statement by Senator Dan
Sullivan of Alaska be entered into the record. Senator Sullivan has
been a fierce advocate for Alaskans and a partner in working to en-
sure fraud is eradicated from federal contracting. And without ob-
jection, so ordered.
I now recognize Ranking Member Markey for his opening state-
ment.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR MARKEY
Senator MARKEY. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. Today’s
hearing is called, Running Government Like a Small Business: Cut
Waste, Crush Fraud. Sounds important. A more accurate title, how-
ever, would be, Running Government Like a Trump Family Busi-
ness: Cutting Deals with Billionaires and Crushing Small Busi-
nesses. That’s what the title on this hearing should say. Because
this administration, the Trump administration, it’s chosen to focus
their energy on relentlessly attacking small businesses from tariffs,
to healthcare, to electricity prices, to contracts.
Yeah. They’re focused on small businesses, crushing Main Street.
Through the now defunct Department Of Government Efficiency, or
DOGE, the administration disproportionately cut contracts for
women-owned and minority-owned small businesses. Those are the
programs they cut. Additionally, 10 percent of all contracts cut by
DOGE were veteran-owned businesses, most of whom were vet-
erans disabled in the line of service. Can you imagine they cut 10
percent of those contracts for those vets? This is all since January.
While, we all want taxpayer dollars to be well spent, we should
take note of who this administration treats as expendable. It’s
those least able to defend themselves. It’s those least able to flatter
or provide gifts to the President and to his family.
The administration’s most recent fixation, SBA’s 8(a) program,
which is a program that gives small disadvantaged businesses
training, technical assistance, and federal contracting opportunities
for nine years. Now, those businesses are principally Black and
Brown owned in our country. That’s who they’re focusing on, cut-
ting that program for those people who are just a small business
trying to get a foothold in this American economy during this very
difficult economic time with healthcare costs, and with electricity
costs, and with the tariffs all zeroing in on small businesses.
This program was created by a Republican President, President
Nixon and signed into law in 1978. It has done a world of good for
tens of thousands of small businesses, and again, disproportion-
ately Black and Brown, providing access to billions in contracting
opportunities with the largest buyer of goods and services in the
country, the federal government.
Like any federal program, there have been rare cases of bad ac-
tors taking advantage of these resources and they should be held
accountable. They should be made to pay the price. But these rare
instances do not warrant an all out assault on a program that has
created good paying jobs, provided pathways to success for small
businesses, and created economic growth for our country.
In a hearing focused on waste, and fraud, and abuse, we just
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cannot avoid or ignore the elephant in the room: President Trump’s
pay to play system. To receive special status as a foreign country,
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you must gift the President a $400 million jetliner that he gets to
keep when he leaves the White House. That’s unbelievable. To get
a gold mine of government contracts, just pay for the President’s
golden ballroom. To receive an exemption from President Trump’s
terrible tariffs, simply give the President a lavish gift or pay to
dine at Mar-a-Lago.
Can a small business do that? No. They’re not dining at Mar-a-
Lago. They can’t afford it. You got to put up a million bucks to just
get in the door. This is not how honest, hardworking, small busi-
nesses get things done. This is how they get business done in The
Godfather, Godfather Part One. That’s what this White House is all
about.
Because when it comes to true oversight, who gets thrown under
the floodlights? It’s the little guys, the minority, small business
owner, the Black and Brown small businesses, the veteran-owned
small businesses, the local restaurant trying to make it through
the pandemic.
And what is it for? It’s all to help the big guys who hobnob with
the President and don’t want pesky small businesses competing
with them for customers or contracts. Those big guys say crush the
little guys, and by the way, give us all their money in tax breaks
for us, too.
If we’re serious about cutting waste, crushing fraud, helping
small businesses, let’s start at the top. The President’s handouts to
his billionaire buddies aren’t just corruption and an abuse of
power, it’s theft. Theft from small businesses, theft from hard-
working Americans, theft from our future. Every tariff exemption
handed out to the President’s political posse rigs the game against
small businesses trying to survive the President’s disastrous trade
war.
Small businesses had to take the President to the Supreme Court
to try to remove those tariffs on them. My hope is that they’ll rule
that way. But you never know with the Supreme Court. Every dol-
lar the Trump family gets by treating our government as their own
personal piggy bank is money stolen from everyday people. Presi-
dent Trump and his family raked in more than $1.8 billion in cash
and gifts just this year, the first 11 months. It’s Robin Hood in re-
verse. It’s Main Street versus Mar-a-Lago. That’s what this hearing
is all about.
And it’s time Congress does its job, and holds this President ac-
countable for turning the federal government into an arm of the
Trump business organization. The little guys are not the villains.
President Trump’s corruption, and waste, and fraud, and abuse is
America’s real villain, and I look forward to this hearing, Madam
Chair,
CHAIR. Thank you, Ranking Member Markey. And I want to ex-
tend a warm welcome to all of our witnesses. I’m thankful that you
took time out of your busy schedules to share your expertise and
insight with this committee.
I will now introduce our first witness, Mr. Luke Rosiak. Mr.
Rosiak is an Investigative Reporter at The Daily Wire, who has
covered waste in the federal government for nearly 20 years. He is
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the winner of the prestigious 2025 Dao Prize for best reporting on
government waste and the 2022 Media Research Center Bulldog
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Award for outstanding investigative journalism. Congratulations on
your recent Dao Award, and it is well deserved.
Next, Mr. John Hart is the CEO of Open the Books. Before join-
ing Open the Books, he served as the Communications Director to
late U.S. Senator Tom Coburn, where he helped pass landmark
transparency legislation that put federal spending online. His work
at Open the Books includes oversight reports on improper pay-
ments, government waste, and COVID fraud.
Our third witness, Dr. Courtney LaFountain, is the Acting Direc-
tor of Financial Markets and Community Investment at the Gov-
ernment Accountability Office, GAO, in Washington, D.C. Dr.
LaFountain earned her Ph.D. in economics from Washington Uni-
versity in St. Louis, Missouri. She is a recipient of the 2022 Arthur
S. Fleming Award, which recognizes federal employees for out-
standing public service. Thank you again.
And I now recognize Ranking Member Markey to introduce his
witness.
Senator MARKEY. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Chair. Dylan
Hedtler-Gaudette is the Acting Vice President of Government Af-
fairs at the Project on Government Oversight, or POGO. POGO
began in 1981 as a Pentagon watchdog. In the years since, they
have expanded to focus on the entire federal government, fighting
to achieve a more ethical, effective, and accountable federal govern-
ment.
Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette has covered a range of issues including
Congressional stock trading, Pentagon accountability, federal
spending issues, foreign influence and the Foreign Agents Registra-
tion Act, judicial ethics, and Congressional capacity amongst oth-
ers. POGO is one of my all-time favorites, and it’s so great to have
you here today. Thank you.
CHAIR. Great. Thank you, Ranking Member Markey. And briefly,
I’ll take a moment to explain our lighting system to our witnesses.
And Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, you just talk away, okay, so we’ll let
you know if time is expiring. There are three lights in front of you.
Green means go. Yellow means you are running out of time. And
red means wrap up your remarks. I ask unanimous consent that
the witnesses’ full statements be included in the record. Without
objection, so ordered.
As your written testimony has been made part of the record, the
committee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes.
And with that, Mr. Rosiak, we’ll start with you, and you are recog-
nized for five minutes for your testimony.
STATEMENT OF MR. LUKE ROSIAK, INVESTIGATIVE
REPORTER, THE DAILY WIRE, NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE
Mr. ROSIAK. Thank you, Senator Ernst, Senator Markey, com-
mittee members. It’s an honor to appear before all of you. I’ve been
an investigative reporter for nearly 20 years focused on waste,
fraud, and abuse in the federal government. I concluded many
years ago that the most openly abused and shockingly corrupt pro-
gram in the federal government is so-called ‘‘set aside’’. Contracting
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contracts are set aside from open competition for women and mi-
nority owned businesses and other groups.
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The Small Business Administration coordinates so-called 8(a)
contracting for agencies across the government. That gives this
committee an important jurisdictional vantage point for a big pool
of money at places like the Pentagon. Now, if you were doing some-
thing in your yard like taking down a tree, or doing some other
work on your property, you probably wouldn’t do that work unless
you called around and got, say, three quotes from different vendors.
You choose the one with the best value.
The government would build a tank without even trying to find
the best value first through this mechanism that we call set aside
contracting. The program was created in 1978, mostly to help Black
Americans start businesses since they’d been discriminated against
by the government. But I don’t believe any member of this com-
mittee would support the program if you see how it works, a half
century later.
At least five percent of all federal contracting dollars are diverted
through set-asides. But these billions don’t go to poor minorities in
your states. They go to insiders in the suburbs of DC, which are
already the wealthiest counties in the country. Very little goes to
Black Americans these days.
The racial composition of America is more complex than it was
back in 1978. In the case of first-generation immigrants, this re-
sults in an odd policy that the government is basically prioritizing
foreigners over Americans by one measure. South Asians, people
from the country of India gobble up a lion’s share of 8(a) contracts
while black Americans get only 15 percent. Not 50 percent, but 15
percent.
The scandal isn’t that there have been a few examples of abuse.
The scandal is that it’s hard to find one that isn’t. Pick a random
set a aside contract on USAspending.gov. I quickly chose OCT Con-
sulting LLC when preparing this testimony. So, this isn’t a noto-
rious fraudster that’s been in the news. I haven’t written about this
person. I literally just picked them off a list a couple days ago. It’s
a guy named Atul Kathuria, who lists a home in McLean, Virginia
as his company address.
He received 19 contracts from the federal government, totaling
$43 million without having to show that he had the best price or
the best services. The government didn’t even consider anybody
else. Now, normally it would be illegal to give a contract to a com-
pany with no competition. That can enable bribery and kickbacks.
It’s the kind of thing corrupt countries like Russia do. In this case,
it was legal because the government certified OCT Consulting as
a, ‘‘Subcontinent Asian Indian American-owned Small Business
8(a) Participant.’’
Well, perhaps the SBA forgot to check with the U.S. Census Bu-
reau. Indian Americans are the wealthiest demographic in America
with higher median income than whites. These contracts are in the
field of IT, which didn’t even exist during the era of government
discrimination. Indians have never been underrepresented in the
field of IT. They’re actually overrepresented in that field.
Now, a listing of DC’s most expensive real estate transaction
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shows that earlier this year, Atul bought an 11,000 square foot es-
tate replete with a wine cellar for $7 million. You can see it up
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there on the screen. Minority ownership is just to win a contract,
not to fix societal disparities at any meaningful scale.
Every staff member listed on OCT Consulting’s website is a
white man except for the owner and his wife. What did Atul do be-
fore he became a disadvantaged businessman and overcame all
odds to become a millionaire? He went to George Washington Uni-
versity, and worked for 15 years as a financial consultant at Ernst
and Young and Booz Allen Hamilton.
This kind of thing is a disgrace. You’ve all seen the video where
an exec from Native American 8(a) ATI Consulting was caught on
camera saying they just subcontract the work out to companies like
Accenture and keep a huge cut. The story here isn’t that a wily
businessman concealed this from the government and finally got
caught. It’s that 8(a) is actually a corrupt conspiracy between gov-
ernment procurement officers and big companies. The companies,
the beltway bandits, like Accenture, Booz Allen, Deloitte, Lockheed
Martin.
Somebody from government will be talking to a friend at one of
these companies and say, ‘‘I have some work that you guys might
be a good fit for. Let’s work together.’’ But if Booz Allen, say, has
to compete for it, they’ll have to make sure they charge less than
Deloitte. The process would take forever and there’s no guarantee
they’ll get it.
So, the contracting officer encourages the beltway bandit to seek
out a random 8(a) that’s listed waiting like a shell company on one
of the contract vehicles. The government can immediately award
the contract to the 8(a) knowing that they’ll subcontract the work
back to the big firm. It’s just a way to bypass competitive bidding
a process we have in place for a reason. So, the guy in the James
O’Keefe video didn’t swindle the government. We all knew the gov-
ernment knew there are skyscrapers down the street in Tyson’s
Corner, defense contractors working on advanced weapons that
don’t have to bid competitively for contracts because we say they’re
Alaskan Native corporations. Every one of us in this room knows
there are not Native Alaskans in those buildings.
8(a) creates a random group of influence-peddlers, who like lob-
byists, get rich by selling their access to government insiders for
the benefit of big business while driving up the costs for all of us.
This is the kind of thing people hate about Washington. You owe
it to voters to end this program.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Rosiak follows.]
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CHAIR. Thank you for the testimony, Mr. Rosiak. And next, we
will go to Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, you’re now
recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
STATEMENT OF MR. DYLAN HEDTLER–GAUDETTE, VICE
PRESIDENT OF POLICY AND GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS,
PROJECT ON GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT (POGO), WASH-
INGTON, D.C.
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Thank you, Chair Ernst, Ranking
Member Markey, and members of the committee. I appreciate the
opportunity to testify before you today on the important issue of
waste, fraud, and abuse in the federal government, particularly in
the federal contracting process. This is a really important and per-
sistent issue, and I’m pleased to see the Senate Small Business
Committee taking it up.
My name is Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, and I’m the Acting Vice
President of Policy and Government Affairs at the Project on Gov-
ernment Oversight, or POGO. We are a non-partisan, independent
watchdog group with nearly 45 years of experience promoting more
accountability, transparency, and effectiveness in federal govern-
ment. We literally exist to combat abuse of power and corruption,
which necessarily includes trying to root out waste, fraud, abuse,
and conflicts of interest.
As you can imagine from the name of our organization, we be-
lieve strongly in the power and the value of oversight. This hearing
today is a prime example of good oversight work. We believe
strongly that good oversight work is indispensable to the pursuit
of good governance. And this is why it’s been so alarming to see
what has been happening over the past year or so.
The current administration has systematically dismantled the
very foundation of the federal government that it is supposed to be
leading, which has included attacking key oversight institutions,
whether it’s firing Inspectors General, attacking oversight bodies
such as the Government Accountability Office, cutting off access to
key agencies or press and journalists, nominating manifestly unfit
and unqualified individuals to serve in critical oversight positions,
or largely relegating Congress to the sidelines.
The current administration has made a mockery of the very con-
cept of oversight and accountability in government. We also saw
the hyped, but largely failed, effort to root out waste, fraud, and
abuse under the auspices of the so-called Department of Govern-
ment Efficiency. Beyond that, we’ve seen direct assaults on the con-
stitutional structure of government, which has included the illegal
impoundment and withholding of Congressionally appropriated
funds and the unlawful firing of large numbers of federal workers.
We have already heard today, and we’ll continue to hear more
about the Small Business Administration’s 8(a) Business Develop-
ment Program. We should put this program in a little bit of context
at the outset here. All 8(a) contract dollars comprise about 5.4 per-
cent of the total $755 billion that were handed out in federal con-
tract last year, the vast majority of which are awarded to very
large, well-connected powerful corporations.
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If there are people taking advantage of the 8(a) program or any
other program in government, they should be held accountable. But
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14
we must realize that oversight bandwidth and resources are ex-
tremely finite and scarce, and we need to triage those resources,
and focus on the most egregious and the largest examples of waste,
fraud, and abuse. We should not select oversight targets on the
basis of political or ideological agendas.
My primary purpose here today is not to criticize, and complain,
and to point out bad things that have happened. I’m here to pro-
pose solutions. So, I want to focus on a couple of solution areas
here, but there are many more I lay out in my written testimony.
First, we must protect, strengthen, and preserve the independ-
ence and the effectiveness of key watchdog and oversight practi-
tioners such as Inspectors General and the Government Account-
ability Office. We must also sufficiently resource and fund those or-
ganizations so that they can perform their critical oversight duties
effectively.
The Senate also has an especially pivotal role to play in pro-
viding advice and consent on the nomination of the individuals who
should be leading those entities. And the Senate must never allow
the confirmation of politically compromised, unfit, and unqualified
individuals.
We must also take a long hard look at the ethics rules and the
enforcement of those rules that we have on the books currently.
They’re wholly insufficient to the task of rooting out corruption,
conflicts of interest in cronyism, which play midwife to waste fraud
and abuse. We must also halt the pernicious effects of the revolving
door between agencies and the very industries that those agencies
are supposed to oversee and regulate.
We have an opportunity before us here today, and in the rest of
the 119th Congress, to advance real common-sense reforms to pro-
mote government integrity and crack down on waste, fraud, and
abuse. Me and my organization stand ready, willing, and able to
partner with anyone who wants to turn those goals into reality.
Thank you for having me here today, and I look forward to an-
swering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette follows.]
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CHAIR. Thank you, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. We appreciate your
testimony. And next, we will move to Mr. Hart. Mr. Hart, you are
now recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN HART, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,
OPEN THE BOOKS, KNOXVILLE, MARYLAND
Mr. HART. Madam Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, and
distinguished Senators, thank you for the invitation to testify
today.
Every dollar saved in Washington is a dream realized somewhere
in America. Nowhere is that more true than in the small business
community. Small businesses aren’t just the engine of growth, they
are also teachers. They teach us that our Founders were right.
That Thomas Jefferson was onto something when he said the nat-
ural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to
gain ground. So, I commend this committee for truly listening, for
hearing, and we’re here, of course, because government doesn’t op-
erate like a small business.
Instead of doing more with less, government does less with more.
Over the past 100 years, the federal government has grown mas-
sively. In 1925, it’s been about $484 per person adjusted for infla-
tion. Today, that number is more than $20,000 per person. And in
our economy, we see this at work. The best way to make something
expensive is for government to make it affordable.
Sectors that have been the most lavishly subsidized, such as
healthcare and education have seen the worst inflation. On the
other hand, sectors that have not been as heavily subsidized such
as electronics tend to produce goods and services that get better
and more affordable over time. It’s pretty simple. TVs get thinner
while government gets bigger, while government borrows to avoid
hard choices.
Small businesses live in the real world of finite resources. Our
unsustainable safety net programs are absolutely the primary driv-
ers of our debt and deficit, in particular, healthcare fraud. But gov-
ernment salaries are part of the problem. Between 2020 and 2024,
government salaries rose 33 percent faster than private sector
wages.
Meanwhile, the number of federal employees earning more than
$200,000 a year rose by 82 percent to bring the number to 70,000
employees. And today, we have more than 400 agencies and sub-
agencies in the federal government. Do small businesses really
need 400 agencies to succeed, or would they be better off at 200,
100, or maybe the 4 our Founders authorized in the Constitution?
Instead of expanding federal agencies, we should be expanding
their agency. Meanwhile, the agency charged with helping small
businesses often misses the mark across the country. We see SBA
lending flowing to organizations that most Americans would never
consider small. SBA-backed loans have gone to Fortune 500 firms,
Rolex stores, Napa wineries, luxury spas, and plastic surgery cen-
ters. These aren’t the mom-and-pop shops Congress intended to
support.
Since 2023, our auditors found more than $105 million in SBA
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loans for private country clubs, beach clubs, tennis and racket
clubs, and yacht clubs. Nearly half of that in 2025 alone. Another
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25
11.8 billion went to highly capitalized investment funds and ven-
ture finance firms, which was aid to Wall Street, not Main Street.
And fraud and improper payments compound the problem. Dur-
ing the pandemic, the SBA issued paycheck protection loans to
50,000 entities on Treasury’s do-not-pay list, a failure that modern-
ized data systems could have prevented. Major law firms and ac-
counting firms received $1.4 billion despite showing little or no fi-
nancial hardship.
And of course, we all know age-related fraud also flourished. In
2021 and 2022, SBA issued 5,593 loans to businesses owned by
people who said they were 11 years old or younger. Now, I applaud
that initiative, but I think that may not be true. While 3,095 loans
went to borrowers aged 115 or older. That’s $645 million in ques-
tionable loans in just two years. You memorably noted, Senator
Ernst, some fraudsters uploaded pictures of Barbie dolls as forms
of ID to obtain loans. So, I guess that makes us all kin, you know,
accessories to the fraud and waste of our own taxpayer dollars.
But the good news is our system is amenable to change. Twenty
years ago, my late boss, Senator Tom Coburn, teamed up with a
young Senator from Illinois named Barack Obama to pass land-
mark transparency legislation that put all federal spending online
for the first time. Obama said it is not often that two Senators
from different parties are able to bridge the partisan divide in this
town and get something accomplished.
But the American people demand greater transparency and ac-
countability. And it is our honor and privilege. Indeed, it is our
duty to provide the tools to help make that possible. At Open the
Books, we are continuing that work. We’re encouraging real time
transparency and building next generation AI tools. We believe the
best way to thwart a surveillance state is with a surveillance citi-
zenry.
So, thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hart follows.]
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CHAIR. Thank you, Mr. Hart. And Dr. LaFountain, you are now
recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
STATEMENT OF DR. COURTNEY LAFOUNTAIN, ACTING DIREC-
TOR, FINANCIAL MARKETS AND COMMUNITY INVESTMENT,
GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE (GAO), WASH-
INGTON, D.C.
Dr. LAFOUNTAIN. Chair Ernst Ranking, Member Markey, and
members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to dis-
cuss GAO’s work on Small Business Administration programs.
SBA’s mission is to help Americans start, grow, and build small
businesses. Today, I’d like to discuss opportunities we’ve identified
for SBA to improve management of fraud risks, improper pay-
ments, and contracting programs to better meet that mission in the
future. And my testimony draws on recommendations from GAO
reports in these areas since the spring of 2020. So, I’ll begin with
opportunities to better manage fraud risks and improper payments
that surfaced during the pandemic.
SBA moved quickly to set up programs to respond to the
pandemic’s economic shock. And altogether, it made or guaranteed
more than $1 trillion in loans and grants, and assisted more than
10 million small businesses. But the speed of those loan approvals
came at the expense of oversight and fraud risk management, espe-
cially early on. Our work uncovered several weaknesses such as
heavy reliance on self-certification and pay-and-chase approaches,
rather than putting stronger upfront safeguards in place against
fraud and other improper payments.
So, where SBA has acted on our recommendations, we’ve seen
some clear improvements. It’s conducted fraud risk assessments,
and put controls in place to prevent funding from going to potential
fraudsters or ineligible applicants. And as of the end of Fiscal Year
2025, we estimate that improved oversight saved the government
at least $30 billion.
All that being said, fraud risks and improper payments didn’t
disappear with the end of the public health emergency. SBA’s pan-
demic programs still involve large numbers of loans and grants
being reviewed, monitored, and serviced. Because of that, SBA
needs to continue strengthening its safeguards, for example, by ex-
panding its use of data analytics for detecting fraud, strengthening
post-award monitoring, and improving processes for referring po-
tential fraud cases to its Inspector General.
In addition, SBA should enhance its capacity to identify and
track overpayments and subsequent recoveries. I also want to em-
phasize that the lessons learned about fraud risk management
from SBA’s pandemic programs do remain relevant for the agency’s
other programs. For example, the pandemic programs highlighted
the importance of conducting robust fraud risk assessments. And
we’ve reported recently on weaknesses in fraud risk assessments by
agencies participating in small business research programs, and we
identified steps SBA can take through its oversight role to help im-
prove the quality of those assessments should those programs be
reauthorized.
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Our work has also underscored the value of robust internal con-
trols and quality data for detecting bad actors and ineligible appli-
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cants. We’ve reported recently on weaknesses in the data systems
that SBA uses to certify its small businesses eligibility for con-
tracting assistance programs. And while we didn’t specifically ex-
amine those systems through the lens of fraud risk management,
a more secure, reliable system for validating, maintaining, and dis-
seminating information about program eligibility would clearly
help reduce risks.
Finally, in June, the SBA Administrator announced a review of
fraud in the 8(a) Business Development Program following a De-
partment of Justice investigation, that you’ve discussed, involving
bribery and businesses participating in the 8(a) program. Applying
the lessons that SBA learned about fraud risk management and its
pandemic programs could be applied to support this effort as well.
So, bottom line, with a more robust system of internal controls
and fraud risk management, SBA would be better placed to support
small businesses both during normal times and in future emer-
gencies, while also ensuring that taxpayer dollars go where they
should.
So, this concludes my opening remarks, and thank you again for
the opportunity to speak here today.
[The prepared statement of Dr. LaFountain follows.]
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56
CHAIR. Thank you everyone for the testimony, and we’ll move
into the question-and-answer portion of today’s hearing. And I now
recognize myself for five minutes for questions. And Mr. Rosiak,
we’ll start with you.
Today, the 8(a) program allows Washington insiders to sell gov-
ernment access and contract awards. What’s your assessment of
the program’s current oversight mechanisms and how effective
have they been in preventing abuse?
Mr. ROSIAK. So, oversight hasn’t worked and it’s not going to
work. Set asides are inherently extraordinarily vulnerable to cor-
ruption and fraud and waste. Wherever there’s the prospect of mil-
lions of dollars going to somebody without the usual competitive
process, the free market is going to find creative ways to get that
money to where it would otherwise have gone, which unfortunately,
often means big companies.
This waste is massive. If you look at, for example, the women-
owned businesses in certain industries, say, construction, asphalt
paving, things like that. Anecdotally, everybody that I talk to says
the vast majority of these companies are actually owned by the
husband of the woman that’s the supposed owner. But realistically,
how would the government ascertain who’s really in control of the
company? You’d almost have to—the government would practically
have to be in the bedroom with them there to see who’s exerting
control over this business. It’s not realistic.
In cases of pass throughs, the disadvantaged company is sup-
posed to retain 51 percent of the proceeds, but it’s virtually impos-
sible to stop pass throughs without having the sort of information
that the government would realistically never see. There’s so many
ways around it.
For example, if you partner with a non-disadvantaged company
that’s supposed to get 49 percent or less, you could put a lot of the
expenses on the disadvantaged side, including maybe even taking
some of the staff from the non-disadvantaged company, and tempo-
rarily hiring them, and putting them on the books of the disadvan-
taged company.
It’s trivial to hit that 51 percent marker. Not to mention that,
you know, in some cases, they may just keep 51 percent if they’re
too lazy to cook the books a bit. Just keep 51 percent as essen-
tially—you know, Senator Markey made a Godfather reference ear-
lier. That’s what I’ve heard. Some of these 8(a), a contractor lik-
ened himself to the mafia and said it’s basically like the protection
money or whatever you have to pay the mobsters to get these con-
tracts.
The big companies kind of know they have an unspoken agree-
ment with the procurement officers and these 8(a) contractors that
you got to cut them in on that. And I think that’s not going to
change. I don’t see any way around that without basically just end-
ing the practice of set asides.
CHAIR. Wow. Thank you for that response. Mr. Hart, I want to
go to something that you referenced in your testimony. You men-
tioned that your former boss, Senator Tom Coburn, someone that
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many of us respected so much, he worked with then-Senator
Barack Obama. You know, one of these instances where we have
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57
people of different parties that are coming together to really do
something good for our taxpayers.
And what they did, they wrote the law creating
USASpending.gov, and that’s a searchable public website of govern-
ment spending. My team spends a lot of time on that website. Was
it their intent for other transaction agreements, or the OTAs, to be
omitted from the website?
Mr. HART. Absolutely not. Senator, that was never their inten-
tion. And as you’ve noted, that’s a tremendous problem right now
with USAspending. And that is one of the reforms that we need to
do is immediately fix and patch that so that money cannot be hid-
den from taxpayers.
But we have to look at why did the Founders write transparency
into the Constitution? It’s important to note they used the word
‘‘shall’’ in Article I, section 9, clause 7. ‘‘Shall provide a regular ac-
counting of receipts.’’ They didn’t say you can provide that if you
feel like it, if it’s convenient for you, and your political opponents
and will punish your enemies. They said shall. So, it’s a require-
ment, and that language precedes the Bill of Rights in the First
Amendment itself.
So, transparency is a foundational first principle. It’s the oxygen
in the public square. We can’t speak if we can’t breathe. So, if they
wrote that today, I’m convinced they would demand real time
transparency be the norm. And our ambition 20 years ago wasn’t
just to pass a law, it was to create a norm and to create this as-
sumption that, of course, government spending’s online, of course
we can search what government is doing.
You know, government always lags behind technology. So, we
need to move very quickly to upgrade our transparency laws today.
CHAIR. Yeah, I agree. Because bottom line, if we don’t know who
is receiving taxpayer dollars and why, then there’s no way for us
to track that and hold recipients responsible for delivering what
they’ve promised to our taxpayers. So, I’m in complete agreement
with that. My time is expiring, and I’ll reserve the rest of my ques-
tions for another round. And with that, I will turn to Senator
Hirono of Hawaii.
Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Madam Chair. As we’re focusing on
waste, fraud, and abuse, you know, there’s just so much of that
rampant in this regime that I hardly know where to begin. And
while this is a Small Business Committee, and you want to focus
on waste, fraud, and abuse in small business segment, there is
massive waste, fraud, and abuse going on in our government.
And I only need to point out to things such as the destruction
of the White House and a ballroom being paid for by individuals
and corporations that seek to get support from this administration.
If that isn’t pay to play, I don’t know what is. You have the Border
Czar accepting $50,000 and what looks like bribes to him lending
contracts to people that he has a relationship or even ownership in-
terest in. Talk about ethical problems. There’s all that.
And meanwhile, this regime has gotten rid of all of the entities,
the independent entities such as the IGs, who might be able to
point out to us overseers that this kind of waste, fraud, and abuse
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is going on. I am also aware that the chair has sent letters to al-
most two dozen agencies and departments asking for—I don’t
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know, demanding, asking for a pause on the 8(a) program. I don’t
even know if these agencies or departments have the authority to
do such a pause.
Because we’re talking about contracts and who knows—you
know, I don’t even know what that means to pause, but to know
that the 8(a) program consists of entity-owned businesses, which
mean we are Alaska Native corporations, Native Hawaiian organi-
zations, tribal organizations, these are entities that have to give
back to the communities and who can access contracts, large con-
tracts up to $100 million. And the 8(a) also includes individual-
owned businesses, and they have to show that they are economi-
cally and socially disadvantaged.
So, Madam Chair, when you write a letter saying you want to
pause on the 8(a) program, you are basically focusing your atten-
tion on the native-owned businesses who hire thousands of people
giving back to the communities, all alleging massive fraud. I would
like to see that if there is fraud going on in the 8(a) program, as
if there is fraud in any other program, we should go after these
people. You don’t go in there and say wipe out the entire program.
So, I’d say that is definitely overkill, and I want to record my seri-
ous concern about what you are doing, Madam Chair.
I have a question for Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette. So, would you say
that you have an awareness of the 8(a) program? Would you say
that it is fraught with rampant fraud and abuse?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. No, no. I would say that, as you just
mentioned, with any program in the federal government, especially
ones that deal with money, there are going to be people who take
advantage of the system, bad actors.
Senator HIRONO. Yeah. And considering that the 8(a) program
consists of maybe $25 billion or so in contracts versus, what is it?
$755 billion?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. That’s right.
Senator HIRONO. I should think that there might be concerns
about waste, fraud, and abuse in all those entities getting the $755
billion in government contracts. And I am very aware of the need
for contract reform within the Armed Services Committee. Because
I have sat on that committee for over 12 years, and the former
chair of that committee has spent his entire time chairing that
committee trying to figure out how to do contracting reform.
So, we know that there are issues relating to oversight of all of
these that the amounts of federal dollars that go out. Now, this is
a desire to help entities that would otherwise have a hard time get-
ting a fair shake and getting a share of federal contracts. This com-
mittee is actually supposed to be supporting those efforts not to
support waste and fraud, of course not, but to enable entities that
would otherwise have a difficult time getting their opportunity to
provide services to our country.
When I think of all of the obvious conflict of interest and pay-
to-play activity that is going on, not to mention the President want-
ing $200 million from the Department of Defense, which he con-
siders his law firm, he considers Pam Bondi, his lawyer. He wants
the DOD to go after all his enemies. Well, what is that but abuse?
DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Why don’t we pay attention to those things.
CHAIR. You have two seconds, Senator.
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Senator HIRONO. I have run out of time.
CHAIR. Yes, thank you. And just because the member has
brought into question my motives. I did say pause on the 8(a) pro-
gram. I did not say cancel the 8(a) program, because of the recent
abuse that has been brought to light through various investigative
pieces of journalism.
Senator HIRONO. Why don’t you [Off mic.]
CHAIR. You are out of order Senator Hirono. Thank you.
So, because of the abuse that has existed in the system, and I
think most Americans, and especially, our small businesses, would
want us to open the books and provide transparency. So, that’s
what we were asking is a complete audit. Those that are fearing
audits perhaps shouldn’t be participating in federal government
programs. I began my political career as an auditor. I believe in
transparency and oversight.
So, next, we will recognize Senator Husted of Ohio.
Senator HUSTED. Thank you, Chair Ernst. And I appreciate what
you’re doing by raising this issue, and giving us an opportunity to
talk about it today. I’m just blown away by the idea that the people
think that given the events of the recent events, that fraud is not
an issue.
The COVID fraud in the system was outrageous, including unem-
ployment compensation. We’re dealing with an issue in Minnesota
right now where perhaps as much as a billion dollars was stolen
and money diverted away from what was supposed to be a food
program for poor kids into the hands of criminals.
And I was just on the Senate floor talking about the Affordable
Care Act premium subsidies, which we know have been ripped off
between—well, $21 billion and $27 billion according to different re-
ports, including one from the GAO. And this is a huge issue be-
cause people lose trust in government when they think their pro-
grams don’t work.
And I’m going to ask each to answer a yes or no question because
I’m interested in your take. Because I’ll tell you quick story. I was
with a road contractor that does aggregates, asphalts, and things
like that. And I asked him about—which he’s not part of any set
aside program. I said, ‘‘What do you think about these set aside
programs?’’ He said, ‘‘They don’t really bother me because every-
body who has a set aside just brings their trucks here, fills them
up with my stuff, my aggregates, marks up the price, and then de-
livers it to the same place that I would.’’
So, I’m going to ask a question. Is that illegal?
Mr. ROSIAK. Do you want one word?
Senator HUSTED. One word.
Mr. ROSIAK. Yes.
Senator HUSTED. Legal, Mr.——
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. No.
Senator HUSTED [continuing]. Gaudette? No?
Mr. HART. Yes.
Dr. LAFOUNTAIN. Based on our work, I actually don’t know the
answer, but I’d be happy to connect you with our experts on that.
Senator HUSTED. So, the answer I received back when I asked
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questions about it is that that’s not illegal. It is offensive. It’s not
how these programs would be designed, and it’s a ripoff to the tax-
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60
payers. I think we could all agree with that, though. And it may
not be illegal, but I hope, Chair, we work on this. That we make
that kind of stuff illegal because it’s not, in my opinion, what the
programs are supposed to be about.
And I know finding the fraudsters in the act is a hard thing to
do. But we have new technologies at our disposal, things like AI
tools. And so, I’m interested, I’ll start with you, Dr. LaFountain.
What tools could—tech tools like AI, is it possible that we could do
a better job with tools like that?
Dr. LAFOUNTAIN. So, let me share a couple of things that we’ve
learned from looking at the role of data analytics and similar tools
in fraud detection and prevention. We have definitely learned that
leveraging big amounts of information and big data across multiple
programs is really important for helping agencies detect and pre-
vent fraud.
We have also learned that leveraging external data, so an agency
needs to look outside of it of itself and, you know, find other ways
to validate information that it’s receiving. That’s another important
way for agencies to detect fraud. So, we do have some work looking
at how AI can be used for this purpose and in other in other pur-
poses. And we’d be happy to share the findings of that when we’re
completed our work.
Senator HUSTED. Okay. Mr. Hart, you have thoughts on that? Or
what other tools should we use? Because we have this fraud. I
mean, a lot of it apparently is in the missed design of these pro-
grams, right? That while they may be well intended and noble in
their pursuit, the practical application is that the fraudsters always
seemed to outwit government and misuse these programs, and
don’t use them for the purposes that they were intended.
Mr. HART. Well, thank you for that. I’ll try to be very brief, but
I have some experience in this. So, between stints when I worked
in the Senate, now to Open the Books, I was a consultant and
worked quite a bit with Silicon Valley companies who people
who’ve designed these technologies.
So, I’m excited about the technology for a couple reasons. What
AI can do is pattern recognition and pattern prediction. So, I was
just in London recently, and there are live facial recognition vans
everywhere. So, I found that very dystopian rather than reas-
suring. But what inspired me to think about is, can we do live
spending recognition? In other words, what we need to be doing
and what our organization is actually doing is using our data set.
We have the biggest data set of government’s spending ever assem-
bled.
To do AI, you need three things. You need big data, you need an
algorithm, and processing power. So, we’re actively working on
building tools that can do pattern recognition and then pattern pre-
diction. So, in a year or five years from now, we can run circles
around CBO and provide those tools to individual taxpayers and
make sure that that authority and that technology belongs with we
the people. That is achievable. And that’s what we’re working on
at Open the Books. Okay. Thank,
Senator HUSTED. Thank you for your time.
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CHAIR. Thank you, Senator Husted. I will now recognize Senator
Markey.
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Senator MARKEY. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Chair. And before I
begin my questions, I want to take note of who is here serving as
an expert on supposed fraud in the 8(a) program. I’ll let his words
behind me speak for themselves as to why he is unqualified to
speak on this program. Even Elon Musk suspended him from Twit-
ter for his extreme views. Mr. Rosiak’s history shows he starts with
a point of view, one which I find abhorrent, then spreads misin-
formation and conspiracy theories to support his views, and that is
not journalism.
For the past almost 50 years, the 8(a) Business Development
Program has broken down historical barriers that underserved
small business owners face when trying to contract with the federal
government. Decades of research backed by real stories of discrimi-
nation and statistical analysis, show that historical discrimination
has created an unequal playing field in government contracting. It
also shows that discrimination continues to this day working
against minority contractors.
Yet, programs like 8(a) are under an all-out attack from oppo-
nents within the government and outside the government who
claim the programs are ripe with fraud. While it is important to
root out instances of genuine fraud, these opponents aim to tear
down programs that address historical discrimination.
Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, how do programs like 8(a) program, and
other small business contracting programs, help competition help
to ensure that in the federal contracting space that there is room
that is made for access for the groups that historically had been
left out?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Thank you for the question, Senator.
Small businesses are, as everyone on this committee I think would
agree, the backbone of the American economy. However, they’re not
the backbone of the federal contracting system. And that is because
there are a handful of extraordinarily large, extraordinarily well
connected and powerful corporations who vacuum up the vast ma-
jority of federal contracting dollars. This is particularly true in the
defense industry space, but it’s true everywhere also.
So, SBA programs, and generally speaking, small business set
asides, are critical to trying to unlock the sort of stranglehold that
that small cadre of very large companies has on federal contracting
dollars. And when you expand and diversify and broaden the indus-
trial base, you make it healthier and more resilient. And then
when you have an eye toward broadening and diversifying even
within the small business contracting space and trying to make
sure that the playing field is the level for those who might want
to be in that space, you do an even better job of increasing the
health and the resiliency of the industrial base.
Senator MARKEY. Yeah. So, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, do you believe
small, disadvantaged businesses contracting programs make up for
make up the most fraud or waste in the federal government? Do
you believe they make up the most within just the federal con-
tracting space?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. And that’s a categorical no. No, it’s not
even close.
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Senator MARKEY. Do you believe the Trump administration’s ac-
tions towards 8(a) program are efficient or effective oversight?
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Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. I do not. I think if they cared deeply
about looking into 8(a) or any other program, they would have an
Inspector General do it because that’s who should be doing it. I also
think it’s a little bit too convenient that the program they’re tar-
geting happens to fall into a category of a sort of ideological or po-
litical viewpoint that they disagree with.
Senator MARKEY. Yeah. And they fired the best Inspector Gen-
eral in America in January who oversaw the SBA. They just fired
him. In June, the SBA announced the so-called audit of the 8(a)
program. And this month, SBA ordered all 8(a) firms to submit ex-
tensive documentation within 30 days over the holidays as a part
of their investigation. Oversight is important to make sure that
government programs are working properly, but I’m concerned that
the SBA’s investigation is politically motivated.
Dr. LaFountain, the GAO provides the standards for government
audits through what’s known as the Yellow Book. Can you tell us
how audits are done, and how your office typically conducts them?
Dr. LAFOUNTAIN. So, thank you for the question. I love to talk
about the Yellow Book. The Yellow Book is our nickname for the
Generally Accepted Government Auditing Standards, or GAGAS.
And this is a framework for conducting high quality audits with
competence, integrity, objectivity, and independence.
The Yellow Book is a big book, and it covers a lot of territory.
It explains the purpose of government auditing, which is to provide
objective analysis and information needed to improve government
performance and accountability. It includes standards for con-
ducting audits ethically, independently, and with sound profes-
sional judgment and other matters related to making sure we do
our work in a manner that’s transparent, independent, and ac-
countable throughout our auditing process.
Senator MARKEY. Yeah. Thank you. So, as I spoke about in my
opening statement, it is ironic that we’re here today to talk about
waste, fraud, and abuse, and are ignoring the elephant in the room.
President Trump’s supercharged pay-to-play system designed to
benefit his billionaire buddies and hurt small businesses.
Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, as an expert in oversight, could you ex-
plain how President Trump is using the federal contracting system
to reward donors and political supporters?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Sure. One especially brazen example of
this, and it’s been mentioned a couple times, but I think it’s worth
underscoring because of how conscious shocking it should be to ev-
erybody, is the East Wing Ballroom Project.
Recently a report came out from one of our colleague organiza-
tions, Public Citizen, that scanned all of the corporations and indi-
viduals who were donating to that vanity project. And it turned out
that a large number of them were big, prime contractors who, on
aggregate, held about $280 billion worth of federal contracts. I
think there’s a bit of a clear wink, nod, pay-to-play at the very
least, the appearance of such a relationship there.
Senator MARKEY. Yeah. And what effect do you see that pay-to-
play system having on small businesses?
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Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. I think the more the already well-con-
nected and the already powerful companies who receive contracts,
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63
the more they receive, the more you crowd out and close off oppor-
tunities for smaller businesses.
Senator MARKEY. And how does corruption or fraud in the 8(a)
program compare to what the administration is doing with its big
business contracting and backroom deals?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. I think in terms of scale and scope, it
doesn’t really compare at all.
Senator MARKEY. Yeah. Like an elephant to a mouse. Huh?
CHAIR. Thank you.
Senator MARKEY. So, yeah, we thank you. We thank you for your
great work on this. And I think you’ve helped to clarify what is
going on here today and how we still haven’t had hearing in any
one of the Republican-controlled committees on what the Trump
administration is doing to instill waste, fraud, and corruption into
the heart of the federal government. Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR. Thank you. And Mr. Rosiak, because your name was
brought up, if you would like to respond, you may respond.
Mr. ROSIAK. I can’t see it, but if I could have a copy of that post-
er framed, if possible, that would be amazing. You mentioned the
prospect of a President giving contracts to his friends. I think that’s
of concern to all of us. The mechanism to do it is when we have
safeguards against.
But let’s say purely hypothetically speaking, President Trump
wanted to steer a contract to SpaceX or to somebody who donated
a bunch of money to him. He can’t do that under the competitive
bidding process. He needs a mechanism to do it. So, what could
happen is you have a low-level SpaceX employee, have his wife cre-
ate a women-owned small 8(a) firm, and they get the sole source
contract, and then they sub it out, of course, to the people that they
work with closely. And it’s easy for the government to do with a
wink and nod, or just read between the lines that this is going to
wind up with SpaceX.
So, that’s the concern here. Is that procurement is like water. It
follows the path of least resistance. And when you have a loophole
like this, it creates all those things that nobody supports.
So, the other thing is, it’s not that there’s a couple reasons that
8(a) is in the spotlight now, but one of it is the Supreme Court. So,
students for fair admissions, the big Supreme Court dealing with
race that showed that this program is illegal. There’s a court case
called Ultima that has subjected 8(a) to an injunction right now.
So, we can’t have a hearing about 8(a) and talk about, oh, Trump
is against DEI, whatever, without recognizing it’s literally under
injunction right now.
So, this committee is going to have to go back and revisit the leg-
islation. And the SBA is going to have to, as the terms of a legal
settlement or a final court order, do a rulemaking process. But
right now, the government cannot treat people differently based on
race. So, if you have a minority set aside program without the mi-
nority, you’re left with just a random set aside program, which is
just rife for all sorts of exploitation.
CHAIR. Thank you. I appreciate——
Senator MARKEY. Madam Chair.
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CHAIR. I’m on my five minutes of questioning.
Senator MARKEY. Well, you gave him more time——
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CHAIR. This is part of my questioning.
Senator MARKEY. Oh, what you mean is I get recognized again?
CHAIR. You’ll get recognized again, Ranking Member Markey.
Thank you. So, I just want to get this straight. So, we were talk-
ing—in Ranking Member Markey’s line of questioning. He said, you
know, the largest amount of fraud, waste, abuse is not in the Small
Business Administration and its programs, I might be para-
phrasing a little bit. This is, however, the Small Business Com-
mittee, and that’s what we are focusing on today.
So, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, you said that no, that doesn’t happen
the most in the 8(a) programs. However, I did annotate or go
through quite a few billions of dollars of fraud or waste that hap-
pened within the 8(a) program, the PPP, and the EIDL loan pro-
grams. So, you are not saying to this committee that we should not
go after people committing fraud in these small business programs
of which the small business committee has jurisdiction. Am I cor-
rect?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Yes, absolutely, you should go after
fraud and waste wherever it exists. I think the point I was making
was more about sort of prioritization of resources than doing so.
CHAIR. Thank you for that clarification. And I would state as
well, I have focused on fraud, waste, and abuse for the past 11
years of my Senate career, regardless of what agency or what presi-
dent was at the helm. So, I think it’s fair to say that we fight for
American taxpayers, regardless of whether we have an -R, a -D, or
an -I behind our name. And that’s the purpose of today’s com-
mittee, is that we’re focusing on fraud that has cured with occurred
within these programs.
So, a question for the entire panel, just very quickly. Just last
week in my home state of Iowa, just to show I don’t pick on every-
body without recognizing issues in my own home state, there was
a former Cuban military sergeant who came to the U.S. illegally
after crossing the southern border and was sentenced to four years
in federal prison for his role in orchestrating a pandemic benefits
fraud conspiracy involving $2.4 million in fraudulently obtained
PPP loans. An illegal Cuban militant in Iowa applied for, and got,
$2.4 million in PPP loans.
Meanwhile, many of our Iowans were struggling to keep their
lights on during the COVID pandemic. So, because I only have 20
seconds left, we have a lot of egregious examples, but wouldn’t you
agree this is someone that should have been prosecuted? Mr.
Rosiak?
Mr. ROSIAK. Yes.
CHAIR. Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Yes.
CHAIR. Mr. Hart?
Mr. HART. Yes.
CHAIR. Ms. LaFountain?
Ms. LAFOUNTAIN. Based on our work, yes, it should be inves-
tigated.
CHAIR. Thank you. And I’ll recognize Ranking Member Markey
for a second round.
DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Senator MARKEY. Well, thank you. And again, I wasn’t going to
put it in the record, but I will. You know, one of Mr. Rosiak’s
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65
tweets just says, ‘‘Turns out lots of DEI hires are both dumber and
vastly moral than their competent predecessors.’’ And I don’t think
that the evidence would actually bear that out. I just think that ba-
sically continues to reflect a preexisting bias.
So, Mr. Hart, in your testimony, you call for transparency sur-
rounding contracting. A recent study found that donors to the
President’s Ballroom Project have received $279 billion in federal
contracts over the last five years. Mr. Hart, do you think those do-
nors to the ballroom should have to disclose their names?
Mr. HART. Well, Mr. Markey, what I believe is that in our Con-
stitution, the Founders describe transparency not as a two-way
street, but a one race, one-way street. In other words, as taxpayers,
we have the right to inspect the government’s checkbook.
However, the government does not have the right to inspect our
checkbook. I think that’s the constitutional standard of trans-
parency. And when we conflate those two, we actually dilute the
meaning of transparency in the Constitution.
So, I’m an equal opportunity oversight person. I think we should
look at the spending of everything. But if we expand the aperture
of the hearing to look at ballroom spending, we should also look at
healthcare fraud. And the Peterson Foundation found that there’s
$925 billion in healthcare fraud. So, the other title of the hearing
could be the Opportunity Cost of Fraud for Small Business, which
is extreme all over the federal government, particularly in the
healthcare sector.
Senator MARKEY. No, thank you. And this year I have sent a
number of letters to the SBA asking about DOGE’s activities. And
I requested a meeting with DOGE in February that has yet to
occur. And I’ve asked for that meeting with DOGE and the SBA
led by the chair over, and over, and over again. We haven’t had it.
DOGE is in like a witness protection program. You know, we know
they’re someplace they’re inside of SBA.
And by the way, the same thing is true over the Environment
Committee. No hearings over at Labor. No hearings. No hearings,
no hearings. They’re inside, you know, but we don’t have any hear-
ings on it. And we know there’s a lot of waste, and fraud, and
abuse, corruption going on. We just aren’t going to have any hear-
ings on it. And I think we’re going to finish the whole term without
ever having had a hearing on DOGE inside of these federal agen-
cies.
And that’s a crime in and of itself. You know, that we’re not
going to look at that. It’s hiding in plain sight right in front of us.
DOGE inside of these agencies, what kind of self-serving activities
are they engaging in? Who are they helping by the decisions which
they are making? What’s going on? Well, we’re the committee of ju-
risdiction, and we haven’t had a hearing yet. We haven’t had a
joint investigation yet. We have done nothing, you know, to find
out what is going on.
So, what little we do know about DOGE’s dealings at SBA is
coming from the media rather than SBA’s responses to my Con-
gressional request. I made this request over, and over, and over
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again. And in rare cases, where I’ve received a response, there is
no helpful information, which we get. They write their answer es-
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sentially in invisible ink—they don’t provide the information which
the public, Mr. Hart, is entitled to the transparency.
It’s a one-way street. It’s coming out of the federal government
to the American people, then they can judge what’s going on.
They’re not going to provide that information. And it’s my under-
standing that GAO also has had some trouble getting Adminis-
trator Loeffler and her team to respond to requests for information
of that is necessary for your work.
And I’m very glad to hear that GAO was conducting a govern-
ment-wide review of the administration’s efforts to implement the
President’s executive orders, including how DOGE has been used
to access data and make policy decisions without any transparency.
Who are they helping? What businesses are they helping? What
friends of the President are they helping? We don’t know. And it’s
not just SBA, it’s every agency. It’s the entire federal government.
So, Dr. LaFountain, is GAO looking to see how DOGE complied
with privacy and information law?
Dr. LAFOUNTAIN, Yes. We have a body of work, at least eight en-
gagements, ongoing on issues related to DOGE. And we do have
one engagement on DOGE and data protections that is looking at
compliance with privacy and information law.
Senator MARKEY. Okay. So, again, I reiterate to you, Madam
Chair, I request that this committee hold a hearing on GAO’s find-
ings about DOGE, specifically about their compliance with data
and information security laws. This would be especially helpful
since we never heard from DOGE, despite our efforts to get them
to brief our committee. And I make that again, as a special request
to you. I think the American public is waiting for the answers to
the questions they are asking about what’s going on inside of the
SBA.
CHAIR. Yes, and thank you. And DOGE does happen to be the
Democrat’s favorite boogeyman out there. And I do want to be clear
that under this administration, we are finally reining in govern-
ment spending and rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse.
So, during the pandemic and under the Biden Administration,
SBA loans were given out like candy. Let’s not forget that individ-
uals who used Barbie dolls as their photo identification were ap-
proved for SBA loans. This is totally unacceptable. In March, it was
announced that, due to DOGE’s hard work in this area, they have
uncovered more than 5,000 SBA loans equivalent to millions of dol-
lars where the listed borrower was 11 years old or younger.
Again, DOGE is the Democrat’s favorite boogeyman. If updating
outdated systems and saving taxpayers time and money scares
them, that says more about their priorities than ours. Are my
Democratic colleagues saying that we should be ignoring billions of
dollars of waste, fraud, and abuse because we’re focusing only on
SBA today and not the entire federal government?
The Biden administration tried to sweep this problem under the
rug. We aren’t doing that. In fact, we are going to do everything
we can to stop it from happening again and recollect every penny
that was stolen or misspent. As Chair of the Senate DOGE Caucus,
I agree with the aim of DOGE, which is to ensure that taxpayer
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dollars are being used effectively and that waste, fraud, and abuse
in the federal government is rooted out.
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And this demonstrates why, to truly create change within the
federal government, DOGE has been given access to many federal
agencies and department systems, which has allowed them to cut
through longstanding hurdles to find waste within each govern-
ment entity. And all Americans should know that DOGE employees
are federal employees. They are federal employees, subject to the
same background checks, privacy laws, and restrictions regarding
data sharing as any other federal employee.
So, if we want to discuss hypotheticals and leaked data, what-
ever might be out there, let’s talk about real leaks and failures,
starting with how a former IRS contractor leaked the private data
of more than 400,000 taxpayers, including President Trump’s.
Additionally, I’ve heard my colleagues question if DOGE has
saved money, and the answer is a resounding yes, and it’s trans-
parently listed on their website. DOGE is working to generate real
savings and estimates that it has saved about $214 billion so far.
DOGE is saving Americans money at across the federal bureauc-
racy. The Department of Veterans Affairs was paying $56,000 to
water eight plants. Yes, eight household plants for five years.
$56,000. I would’ve loved to have had that contract. Thanks to
DOGE, this contract was canceled, and those plants will be wa-
tered for free.
So, while DOGE keeps delivering more savings every day, Demo-
crats are more upset by the effort to stop wasteful spending than
by the misuse of Americans taxpayer dollars. As I’ve always said,
if you can’t find waste in Washington, D.C., there can only be one
reason: you are not looking. Shouldn’t we be pulling the plug on
government waste instead of those who are finding it?
I have one minute left. And I will go to Mr. Hart talking about
waste. I gave the egregious example of a Cuban illegal migrant mil-
itant who scammed the federal government for $2.4 million. Can
you provide any other egregious examples of where there has been
scams in the federal government?
Mr. HART. Well, Senator, unfortunately, I think one example we
haven’t touched on is that in Atlanta. There was a mail carrier who
stole paycheck protection program checks from people’s mailboxes
along as routes and used it to provide personal clothing, personal
expenses for himself.
And we have to ask why did that happen? And I believe it hap-
pens because when government gets in the business of deciding it
can pick winners and losers, what it ends up doing is punishing the
winners and rewarding the losers. And maybe instead of having a
federal Small Business Administration, we should return business
to business and business to the states and let them navigate the
questions, the economics of it.
CHAIR. And that is pretty profound. So, thank you for that. I
would also like to make sure the Ranking Member is aware that
on October 30th, I requested the SBA Inspector General to do an
audit of the 8(a) program. So, I ask unanimous consent that my let-
ter be entered into the record. And without objection, so ordered.
You want another round——
Senator MARKEY. Yes, please.
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CHAIR [continuing]. Ranking Member.
Senator MARKEY. Yes.
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68
CHAIR. You’re recognized for five minutes.
Senator MARKEY. Yeah. I would love to see the DOGE represent-
ative from SBA sitting here at a witness table under oath. Love to
see who that is. I think you and I right now would have about a
50 percent chance of picking that person out of a two-person line-
up. We have no idea who it is. We have no idea what their name
is. We don’t even know who they are, and we’re supposed to take
their word for it. We don’t even know their name.
How in the world can we give any respect to people who are too
afraid to have us know their names, too afraid to appear before
this committee? You know, they beg to be put in a witness protec-
tion program so that they can hide out, you know, from any scru-
tiny from the public. And yet, we’re supposed to respect the num-
bers which they’ve given us and we don’t even respect them. We
don’t even know who they are.
You know, this is like anonymity. This is like Soviet Russia. This
is like the deepest, darkest Kafkaesque-kind of a proceeding that
we’re operating on that we don’t have any information to give any
kind of respect to any number, which again, although I do know
one thing that the biggest part of the COVID fraud occurred in
2020 when Trump was President, although we’re not going to hear
that from—is that not correct from the GAO? Is that not an early
conclusion that you’ve reached?
Dr. LAFOUNTAIN. So, we did find that PPP and COVID Idle were
both more vulnerable to fraud early in the program. But I checked
with our experts, and we don’t have estimates that kind of break
it down from one year to the next.
Senator MARKEY. No, I get it. Very vulnerable to fraud during
the Trump administration. And you know, but we’re not going to
have a hearing on that, that’s for sure. That’s not going to happen
either. We’re putting Trump into a witness protection program as
well. And anyone who represents him and who would’ve had a re-
sponsibility for any of that.
But we’re not beyond like taking Black and Brown citizens who
have small businesses and somehow rather being able to smear
them. When the vast amount of all of the fraud, the elephants still
isn’t willing to come in here and to sit down. So, you know, maybe
we could let them come in, like they were ICE agents and just put
bags over their head. You know, maybe they could wear masks so
we wouldn’t identify them. You know, maybe we could just have
them sit out there and maybe mumble through their masks what,
what they found.
But we could at least cross-examine them. You know, we got to
at least hold them to an oath. But if they’re afraid to be recognized
the way ICE agents are maybe, you know, and that’s kind of a
characteristic of the Trump administration. People want to put on
their mask almost like they are in fact engaging in criminal behav-
ior. They are engaging in behavior which is unconstitutional, ab-
horrent to the rule of law in our nation that abhorrent to the due
process protections, which all of these people who are in all of these
programs are, are entitled to.
So, that’s pretty much my take on this. You know, unless, and
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until we have these people in here and testifying, we don’t owe
them any honest respect at all, any numbers, any representations,
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69
which they are making. And it is the GAO, it is the Inspector Gen-
erals who have to conduct the proper independent oversight of fed-
eral programs.
And unfortunately, this is not a hearing focused upon finding bi-
partisan solutions to problems that are relative. That’s what I
would like to do, rather than turning this into a star chamber, you
know, into a Kafka’s Trial where it’s impossible for us to actually
get to the accusers who are inside of DOGE and sending out infor-
mation, but without any ability to cross examine them.
So, we should be having real oversight hearings, Madam Chair.
We should be calling on the administration to make sure that SBA
programs are running the way they are supposed to. We should be
collaborating with the SBA Inspector General, with the GAO, so
that we can get to the bottom of what’s going on right now. Con-
gressional oversight is critical. It’s absolutely essential. And we
can’t do it if we don’t have the facts. We can’t do it if we can’t get
the information.
Otherwise, it just turns into political targeting of programs and
individuals who have invoked the political ire of particular seg-
ments of the Trump empire. And that’s just not real oversight. And
as members of this committee, we should do everything we can to
uplift small businesses. That’s not what this hearing is all about.
It’s stigmatizing those who are already most vulnerable historically
in terms of the durability.
So, again, we’re ignoring the elephant in the room, and we know
it’s the Trump administration officials who are inside all of these
agencies. Until we get to that GOP elephant, we’re not having real
hearings. We’re not doing real oversight. We’re just allowing for the
demonization of those who have always historically been most vul-
nerable. Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR. Thank you. And with that, we will go ahead and wrap the
committee. I will take a little bit of issue in describing the United
States of America as Soviet Russia. Those of us that served in uni-
form for this great nation feel otherwise. So, I just wanted to make
that very clear that I’m proud of my country, regardless of who is
at the helm, because our country is made of incredible men and
women from all walks of life.
So, if there are no further questions, I want to thank our wit-
nesses for being with us today. I ask unanimous consent that the
record of today’s hearing remain open for two weeks for members
to submit questions, revise and extend their remarks, and submit
additional information into the record. And without objection, so or-
dered.
With that, the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneur-
ship stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:55 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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151
DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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153
DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 200 here 62296A.126
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 201 here 62296A.127
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 202 here 62296A.128
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 211 here 62296A.137
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 212 here 62296A.138
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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167
DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 214 here 62296A.140
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168
DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 215 here 62296A.141
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169
DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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170
DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 219 here 62296A.145
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 220 here 62296A.146
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 222 here 62296A.148
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 223 here 62296A.149
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
Insert offset folio 224 here 62296A.150
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DMWilson on DSK7X7S144PROD with HEARINGS
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-119shrg62296.pdf
- Size
- 84,321,124 bytes
- SHA-256
- 6f90d185ce8b92b2a047d4c57f220f98df34cf55a1a48eff2962b5ffdbc7a930
- Our copy
- CHRG-119shrg62296.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov