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SBA's Role in Climate Solutions (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, July 21, 2021)

Summary

The printed record of a hearing, SBA's Role in Climate Solutions, held July 21, 2021 by the Subcommittee on Oversight, Investigations, and Regulations of the House Committee on Small Business, Small Business Committee Document Number 117–027. Hon. Dean Phillips and Hon. Beth Van Duyne gave opening statements. Four witnesses testified: Laurel Walk, Chief Lending Officer of Colorado Lending Source, Ltd., Denver, CO, for the National Association of Development Companies; Rick Chapman, General Manager of The Port of Sunnyside Club, Inc., Stillwater, MN, for the Midwest Marina Association; Dr. Lynn Abramson, President of the Clean Energy Business Network; and Mark Glenn, Owner and Chief Executive Officer of FASTSIGNS, Carrollton, TX, for the International Franchise Association. Additional material came from Clearly Clean Products.

Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used

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“SBA's Role in Climate Solutions (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, July 21, 2021).” Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/sba-s-role-in-climate-solutions-house-small-business-subcommittee-hear-e89174eac4/, SHA-256 5fbc3ee3d2f300a3c221116d54afd0110f4a94200055f2bc017a662cbb366af9.

Full text

                                                                                SBA’s ROLE IN CLIMATE SOLUTIONS


                                                                                                  HEARING
                                                                                                         BEFORE THE


                                                                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT,
                                                                   INVESTIGATIONS, AND REGULATIONS
                                                                                                            OF THE


                                                                       COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                                                              UNITED STATES
                                                                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
                                                                             ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
                                                                                                       FIRST SESSION


                                                                                                       HEARING HELD
                                                                                                        JULY 21, 2021




                                                                                Small Business Committee Document Number 117–027
                                                                                  Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov




                                                                                           U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                                                                    45–123                             WASHINGTON : 2021




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                                                                                    HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                                                                       NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman
                                                                                                JARED GOLDEN, Maine
                                                                                                JASON CROW, Colorado
                                                                                               SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
                                                                                              KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
                                                                                              DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
                                                                                               MARIE NEWMAN, Illinois
                                                                                           CAROLYN BOURDEAUX, Georgia
                                                                                               TROY CARTER, Louisiana
                                                                                                 JUDY CHU, California
                                                                                            DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
                                                                                            ANTONIO DELGADO, New York
                                                                                          CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
                                                                                                ANDY KIM, New Jersey
                                                                                               ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
                                                                                    BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri, Ranking Member
                                                                                               ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
                                                                                              JIM HAGEDORN, Minnesota
                                                                                              PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                                                                                              DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                                                                                             CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
                                                                                           ANDREW GARBARINO, New York
                                                                                                YOUNG KIM, California
                                                                                               BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                                                                                               BYRON DONALDS, Florida
                                                                                               MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
                                                                                            SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin

                                                                                          MELISSA JUNG, Majority Staff Director
                                                                                     ELLEN HARRINGTON, Majority Deputy Staff Director
                                                                                             DAVID PLANNING, Staff Director




                                                                                                                  (II)




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                                                                                                               CONTENTS
                                                                                                            OPENING STATEMENTS
                                                                                                                                                                                                Page
                                                              Hon. Dean Phillips ..................................................................................................               1
                                                              Hon. Beth Van Duyne .............................................................................................                   3

                                                                                                                       WITNESSES
                                                              Ms. Laurel Walk, Chief Lending Officer, Colorado Lending Source, Ltd., Den-
                                                                ver, CO, testifying on behalf of the National Association of Development
                                                                Companies (NADCO) ...........................................................................................                     5
                                                              Mr. Rick Chapman, General Manager and Certified Marina Manager (CMM),
                                                                The Port of Sunnyside Club, Inc., Stillwater, MN, testifying on behalf
                                                                of the Midwest Marina Association in his role as President ............................                                           7
                                                              Dr. Lynn Abramson, President, Clean Energy Business Network, Washington,
                                                                DC ..........................................................................................................................     8
                                                              Mr. Mark Glenn, Owner and Chief Executive Officer, FASTSIGNS,
                                                                Carrollton, TX, testifying on behalf of the International Franchise Associa-
                                                                tion (IFA) ..............................................................................................................        10

                                                                                                                        APPENDIX
                                                              Prepared Statements:
                                                                  Ms. Laurel Walk, Chief Lending Officer, Colorado Lending Source, Ltd.,
                                                                    Denver, CO, testifying on behalf of the National Association of Develop-
                                                                    ment Companies (NADCO) ..........................................................................                            27
                                                                  Mr. Rick Chapman, General Manager and Certified Marina Manager
                                                                    (CMM), The Port of Sunnyside Club, Inc., Stillwater, MN, testifying
                                                                    on behalf of the Midwest Marina Association in his role as President ....                                                    34
                                                                  Dr. Lynn Abramson, President, Clean Energy Business Network, Wash-
                                                                    ington, DC .....................................................................................................             38
                                                                  Mr. Mark Glenn, Owner and Chief Executive Officer, FASTSIGNS,
                                                                    Carrollton, TX, testifying on behalf of the International Franchise Asso-
                                                                    ciation (IFA) ..................................................................................................             46
                                                              Questions for the Record:
                                                                  None.
                                                              Answers for the Record:
                                                                  None.
                                                              Additional Material for the Record:
                                                                  Clearly Clean Products, LCC ...........................................................................                        53




                                                                                                                               (III)




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                                                                         SBA’s ROLE IN CLIMATE SOLUTIONS

                                                                                           WEDNESDAY, JULY 21, 2021

                                                                                   HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                                                                                   COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
                                                                                          SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT,
                                                                                         INVESTIGATIONS, AND REGULATIONS,
                                                                                                                 Washington, DC.
                                                                 The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:01 a.m., in Room
                                                              2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Dean Phillips [chair-
                                                              man of the Subcommittee] presiding.
                                                                 Present: Representatives Phillips, Newman, Craig, Chu, Evans,
                                                              Van Duyne, Hagedorn, Meuser, and Donalds.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. Good morning, everybody. I am going to
                                                              call the meeting to order.
                                                                 And without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess
                                                              at any time.
                                                                 Let me begin by saying that standing House and Committee
                                                              rules and practice will continue to apply during hybrid proceedings.
                                                              All members are reminded that they are expected to adhere to
                                                              these standing rules including decorum.
                                                                 House regulations require members to be visible through a video
                                                              connection throughout the proceeding, so please keep your cameras
                                                              on. And please remember to remain muted until you are recognized
                                                              to minimize background noise. If you have to participate in another
                                                              proceeding, please exit this one and log in later.
                                                                 In the event a member encounters technical issues that prevent
                                                              them from being recognized for their questioning, I will move to the
                                                              next available member of the same party and I will recognize that
                                                              member at the next appropriate time slot provided they have re-
                                                              turned to the proceeding.
                                                                 For those members and staff physically present in the Committee
                                                              room today, we will continue to follow the most recent OAP guid-
                                                              ance. Masks are no longer required in our meeting space for mem-
                                                              bers and staff who have been fully vaccinated. All members and
                                                              staff who have not been fully vaccinated are still required to wear
                                                              masks and socially distance. I sincerely hope we do our part to pro-
                                                              tect each other and our staff.
                                                                 I will move to my opening statement.
                                                                 The coronavirus pandemic may have been the most severe and
                                                              widespread shock to the global economy in recent memory. It was
                                                              a harsh reminder of the economic and social injury that come with
                                                              being unprepared. And America’s small businesses have been par-
                                                              ticularly hard hit, which is why Congress quickly established emer-
                                                              gency relief programs like the Paycheck Protection Program, which
                                                                                                                  (1)




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                                                                                                                  2

                                                              has provided more than $798 billion in economic aid to 8.5 million
                                                              small businesses and nonprofits across our country.
                                                                 But throughout the pandemic, we have witnessed the heart-
                                                              breaking human cost of a slow and oftentimes uncoordinated re-
                                                              sponse and our businesses are still battling the economic con-
                                                              sequences.
                                                                 I look forward to this Subcommittee hearing and I look forward
                                                              to future hearings on the challenges that inflation and labor short-
                                                              ages are also posing to small businesses. But today, I want to focus
                                                              our attention on how the lessons of the COVID-19 pandemic can
                                                              help inform our response to another looming crisis, and that is our
                                                              rapidly changing climate.
                                                                 Scientists and experts have long warned of the devastation of a
                                                              pandemic scale climate crisis, but recently, those predictions have
                                                              transformed into devastating realities. Today, historic droughts,
                                                              rising sea levels, and other extreme weather events pose a signifi-
                                                              cant risk to life as we know it and to our businesses. In the same
                                                              way that we could not have imagined how the pandemic would
                                                              alter our lives and livelihoods, we can hardly anticipate the chal-
                                                              lenges that await us if our conservation and sustainability efforts
                                                              remain unrealized. With small firms accounting for 99 percent of
                                                              all businesses and much of our economic growth, they will be im-
                                                              portant participants in the fight against climate change. Busi-
                                                              nesses, governments, and individuals have a vital role to play as
                                                              we work to manage disruption risk, invest in more resilient infra-
                                                              structure, reduce our carbon footprint, and build a green economy.
                                                                 While short-term economic challenges, such as unemployment,
                                                              supply chain management issues, labor shortages, inflation, and
                                                              shipping delays are important outstanding matters, global environ-
                                                              mental threats only stand to worsen if these issues in the long
                                                              term and the fact of the matter is we must be solving for each and
                                                              every one of them.
                                                                 This will present monumental challenges but also immense op-
                                                              portunities. By innovating to go green, small businesses can help
                                                              create new industries and great paying jobs as part of the clean en-
                                                              ergy economy. The clean energy economy already covers many in-
                                                              dustries that are dominated by small businesses. For example, the
                                                              construction, manufacturing, and renewable energy sectors all have
                                                              a very high percentage of small firms. In 2020, renewable energy
                                                              provided 21 percent of energy consumption in the United States
                                                              and fossil fuel consumption hit its lowest level since 1991.
                                                                 As the federal government prioritizes combatting climate change,
                                                              the renewable sector will continue to grow. As the adoption of wind
                                                              and solar and other renewable energy systems increase, small busi-
                                                              ness owners stand to benefit.
                                                                 Going green also presents many benefits for small businesses on
                                                              a micro level. Green energy is often the cheapest way to power a
                                                              business and switching to renewables can often boost an entre-
                                                              preneur’s bottom line. Small business owners who save money
                                                              through energy efficiency improvements can reallocate it to capital
                                                              expenditures to make their enterprises more competitive and prof-
                                                              itable. Renewable investment can also uplift the American economy
                                                              as a whole. Seizing on the opportunities the green economy creates




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                                                                                                                  3

                                                              can help revitalize America’s energy production, manufacturing,
                                                              and position America as a clean energy leader in the world.
                                                                 These benefits make it plain that the federal government must
                                                              offer adequate incentives for businesses to go green. The SBA has
                                                              a clear role in supporting the small businesses that want to make
                                                              the transition to renewables. The agency already has several pro-
                                                              grams that supply small firms with capital to undergo business im-
                                                              provements, purchase assets, and rebuild after disasters. It is vital
                                                              that we take a close look at these programs and find ways to opti-
                                                              mize them to serve businesses that wish to switch to renewables
                                                              or make other climate related decisions.
                                                                 Investing in energy infrastructure improvements or preparing a
                                                              business for future weather events can be costly endeavors as we
                                                              all know. That is why the SBA’s programs must ensure that they
                                                              are set up to help small businesses confronting the realities of the
                                                              climate crisis. By crafting programs that understand the level of
                                                              vulnerability small firms face, we can better prepare for future en-
                                                              vironmental threats to our nation, its economy, and the health of
                                                              our fellow citizens. I hope this hearing will enable us to increase
                                                              the resilience of small businesses that were very affected by the
                                                              pandemic and continue to need our support in their endeavors.
                                                                 Now I would like to yield to the Ranking Member, Ms. Van
                                                              Duyne, for her opening statement.
                                                                 Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                 Small businesses are the lifeblood of the American economy.
                                                              They spur innovation, provide the majority of jobs, and keep Amer-
                                                              ica’s uniquely entrepreneurial spirit thriving. At the beginning of
                                                              2020, we saw small business success at record levels, and as every-
                                                              one on this Committee is brutally aware, the COVID-19 pandemic
                                                              brought the economy to a standstill. These shutdowns forced small
                                                              businesses to temporarily close their doors, lay off their employees,
                                                              and for some shattered their dreams entirely.
                                                                 But even while enduring such a difficult moment in our nation’s
                                                              history, the resilience of America’s entrepreneurs shine through.
                                                              Small businesses quickly adapted to this new environment and the
                                                              SBA’s COVID relief programs including the successful Paycheck
                                                              Protection Program helped many of America’s smallest employers
                                                              keep the bills paid as they waited to reopen.
                                                                 Yet even after getting past seemingly never-ending state and
                                                              local restrictions, small businesses are now facing unexpected com-
                                                              petition from the federal government. The Biden administration
                                                              seems relentless in its attempt to destroy small businesses. Today,
                                                              the businesses fueling growth in our communities are experiencing
                                                              massive labor force shortages, rapidly increasing inflation, and an
                                                              unreliable supply chain. And unfortunately, all of these individ-
                                                              ually disastrous issues have something in common—tone-deaf Fed-
                                                              eral policies.
                                                                 To top it all off, the small businesses I have spoken with are al-
                                                              ready preparing for the next disaster. This administration is hurl-
                                                              ing their way which is tax hikes. After meeting with countless
                                                              small businesses back at home in North Texas, there was not one
                                                              that I talked to who has not already increased wages and benefits
                                                              to attract workers and yet they are still struggling to find good
                                                              help.




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                                                                 So last week, with the help of local elected officials, I hosted a
                                                              job fair to connect these hurting businesses with workers looking
                                                              for their next opportunity. If there is one takeaway that I can
                                                              share today it is that America is ready to reopen. We need to give
                                                              small business the room to succeed and allow American workers to
                                                              earn their way forward.
                                                                 While I left that job fair with a great sense of optimism in the
                                                              people of this country and their never-ending resiliency, the work
                                                              here in Congress is far from over. Prices today are notably higher
                                                              than at this time last year and the solution given by this adminis-
                                                              tration is to spend trillions more. And who will fit the bill? The
                                                              exact same small businesses and employees we are allegedly trying
                                                              to help.
                                                                 Small businesses can lead this recovery but they must be given
                                                              the opportunity to do so in their own way. The American entre-
                                                              preneur, not this administration’s checkbook, is our country’s great-
                                                              est asset. I look forward to promoting an environment in which
                                                              small businesses can once again drive our country forward.
                                                                 I want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us here today,
                                                              Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you, Ms. Van Duyne. The
                                                              gentlelady yields back.
                                                                 Now I will take a moment to explain how this hearing will pro-
                                                              ceed. Each witness will have 5 minutes to provide a statement and
                                                              each Committee member will have 5 minutes for questions. Please
                                                              ensure that your microphone is on when you begin speaking and
                                                              that you return to mute when you are finished.
                                                                 With that, I will begin to introduce our witnesses.
                                                                 Our first is Ms. Laura Walk. Ms. Walk is the chief lending officer
                                                              with Colorado Lending Source, a certified development company
                                                              with a mission to foster the economic growth of diverse small busi-
                                                              nesses. Colorado Lending Source utilizes the SBA 504 and 7(a) loan
                                                              programs to offer access to capital for entrepreneurs as well as the
                                                              SBA Community Advantage and Colorado main street programs.
                                                              Ms. Walk has assisted in the approval of over 1,400 SBA 504 loans
                                                              which have created more than 10,000 jobs and injected over $2 bil-
                                                              lion into the economy. We appreciate you being with us today, Ms.
                                                              Walk.
                                                                 Our second witness is Mr. Rick Chapman, the general manager
                                                              of Sunnyside Marina on the St. Croix River in Minnesota and the
                                                              president of the Midwest Marina Association representing 25 mari-
                                                              nas on the St. Croix River, the Mississippi River, Lake
                                                              Minnetonka, and Lake Superior, with over 6,000 boaters. Mr.
                                                              Chapman is also a resident of Bloomington located in my district,
                                                              Minnesota’s 3rd. We appreciate you being with us today, Mr. Chap-
                                                              man.
                                                                 Our third witness is Dr. Lynn Abramson, the president of the
                                                              Clean Energy Business Network, the small business voice for the
                                                              clean energy economy, representing over 3,000 businesses in all 50
                                                              states. Dr. Abramson has a Ph.D. in marine and atmospheric
                                                              sciences from Stoney Brook University where her research on car-
                                                              bon cycle processes spurred her interest in advancing low carbon
                                                              energy solutions. We appreciate you being with us, Doctor.
                                                                 Now, Ms. Van Duyne, will introduce her witness.




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                                                                Ms. VAN DUYNE. Our fourth witness is Mark Glenn. Mr. Glenn
                                                              is the owner and chief executive officer of four different
                                                              FASTSIGNS locations in the Dallas area and one in Carrollton,
                                                              Texas, which is actually in my district. FASTSIGNS is a banner
                                                              and graphics sign company with franchise locations across the
                                                              globe. Prior to being a franchisee owner with his wife Shawn and
                                                              employing approximately 30 workers, Mr. Glenn worked in the cor-
                                                              porate headquarters office of FASTSIGNS in Carrollton, Texas.
                                                              With a business management degree from Southeastern Oklahoma
                                                              State University, Mr. Glenn brings an entrepreneurial spirit to his
                                                              company daily. Mr. Glenn, we appreciate you taking time away
                                                              from your busy schedule running four different small businesses,
                                                              and I know your expertise as a business owner will be important
                                                              as we continue to examine the small business ecosystem.
                                                                I thank you for joining us this morning. I would like to welcome
                                                              all of the other witnesses as well. I look forward to this morning’s
                                                              conversation and I yield back.
                                                                Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you, Ms. Van Duyne. And I join you
                                                              in welcoming all of our witnesses.
                                                                And we will start with Ms. Walk. You are recognized for 5 min-
                                                              utes for your opening statement.

                                                              STATEMENTS OF LAUREL WALK, CHIEF LENDING OFFICER,
                                                               COLORADO LENDING SOURCE, LTD.; RICK CHAPMAN, GEN-
                                                               ERAL MANAGER AND CERTIFIED MARINA MANAGER (CMM),
                                                               THE PORT OF SUNNYSIDE CLUB, INC.; LYNN ABRAMSON,
                                                               PRESIDENT, CLEAN ENERGY BUSINESS NETWORK; MARK
                                                               GLENN,  OWNER   AND  CHIEF   EXECUTIVE   OFFICER,
                                                               FASTSIGNS

                                                                                           STATEMENT OF LAUREL WALK
                                                                Ms. WALK. Good morning, Chairman Phillips, Ranking Member
                                                              Van Duyne, and distinguished members of the Subcommittee.
                                                              Thank you so much for having me today.
                                                                My name is Laurel Walk and I am the chief lending officer at
                                                              Colorado Lending Source, a certified development company, or
                                                              known as a CDC, based here in Denver, Colorado.
                                                                Colorado Lending Source is also a member of the National Asso-
                                                              ciation of Development Companies (NADCO), the trade association
                                                              representing more than 200 private, nonprofit CDCs. I am also
                                                              pleased today to testify on behalf of NADCO and my CDC col-
                                                              leagues.
                                                                I am honored to discuss the role of the Small Business Adminis-
                                                              tration lending programs, particularly the 504 program in sup-
                                                              porting a resilient 21st century economy, including lending in the
                                                              energy space.
                                                                First, the 504 program is SBA’s premier economic development
                                                              tool and CDCs who deliver the program are dedicated to building
                                                              strong communities across the country. The program is primarily
                                                              used to finance real estate, including new construction, remodeling,
                                                              retrofitting existing real estate and equipment. The program also
                                                              has specific energy reduction goals that allows borrowers to access
                                                              more capital.




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                                                                 Like other public policy and job creation goals, the energy-related
                                                              goals of the program have made a real impact. Colorado Lending
                                                              Source was able to see this impact firsthand when we partnered
                                                              with the Garden of the Gods resort in Colorado Springs on two dif-
                                                              ferent projects. Their second project was made possible by using
                                                              the renewable energy program. The business is women-owned and
                                                              our borrowers, Brenda Smith and Judy Mackey have stated that
                                                              thanks to the renewable energy program, the property has been
                                                              able to improve their energy efficiency. All of this equipment not
                                                              only saved money in the first year that they were installed but con-
                                                              tinues to save and provide energy efficiency.
                                                                 There are many small businesses that must make hard choices
                                                              regarding what they can afford to do at any time. We see the re-
                                                              newable energy program as a way for businesses to focus on energy
                                                              efficiency at the same time they are improving their property.
                                                                 The scope and reach of the 504 program could be broadened.
                                                              First, Congress should consider reducing the required equity injec-
                                                              tion for green energy projects from 10 percent to 5 percent. This
                                                              is something the Small Business Committee has already considered
                                                              and included for manufacturing loans in the bipartisan 504 Mod-
                                                              ernization and Small Manufacturing Enhancement Act of 2021. In
                                                              particular, a smaller equity injection from the borrower would in-
                                                              crease access to smaller projects under $500,000. This is a category
                                                              often overlooked by traditional lending.
                                                                 As small businesses compete for commercial real estate in today’s
                                                              market, a smaller equity requirement would truly expand access to
                                                              capital for those businesses and allow them to conserve precious
                                                              capital while filling a gap in conventional financing which 504 was
                                                              created for.
                                                                 Secondly, Congress should consider increasing the loan size for
                                                              renewable energy projects which is another enhancement provided
                                                              for manufacturers in H.R. 1490.
                                                                 As small businesses recover and look to scale, the current loan
                                                              size, coupled with real estate and construction costs will likely im-
                                                              pact the ability of the program to help small businesses achieve
                                                              their scaling goals in the future.
                                                                 SBA’s local district offices could also partner more actively with
                                                              at least one resource partner such as their local small business de-
                                                              velopment center to promote the benefits of implementing the al-
                                                              ternative energy sources.
                                                                 There are also administrative changes the SBA could make. For
                                                              example, there is an instituted cap of $16.5 million as the max-
                                                              imum amount of 504 loans for a borrower under the existing en-
                                                              ergy goals for the program. SBA could reassess and consider elimi-
                                                              nating this. One of the benefits that we have heard over and over
                                                              from our borrowers is the ability to come back and utilize the pro-
                                                              gram as they grow which happens with the energy program.
                                                                 Finally, but very importantly, the 504 program is available to
                                                              borrowers across the country thanks to an annual authorization by
                                                              Congress. The authorization level for the amount of 504 loans that
                                                              can be approved has been at $7.5 billion for years. The combination
                                                              of recovering from the pandemic and the higher profile the SBA
                                                              has created has resulted in high demand. As an industry, we are
                                                              thrilled to be helping so many small businesses. However, we have




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                                                              real concerns about the possibility of reaching the $7.5 billion cap
                                                              before the end of the fiscal year. If the program reaches the author-
                                                              ization cap, the program will shut down and we will be unable to
                                                              make any 504 loans. It is critically important the program be avail-
                                                              able to small businesses during this integral recovery period. The
                                                              CDC industry supports efforts to provide flexibility for the adminis-
                                                              trator to increase the 504 authorization cap up to 15 percent which
                                                              is consistent with the 7(a) program.
                                                                 Thank you again for having me here today and I look forward
                                                              to answering any questions.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you, Ms. Walk.
                                                                 Now, Mr. Chapman, you are recognized for 5 minutes for your
                                                              opening statement.
                                                                                       STATEMENT OF RICK CHAPMAN
                                                                 Mr. CHAPMAN. Chairman Phillips and Ranking Member Van
                                                              Duyne, and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the op-
                                                              portunity to appear before you today to discuss the Small Business
                                                              Administration’s role in climate solutions.
                                                                 My name is Rick Chapman. I live in Bloomington and work in
                                                              Stillwater, Minnesota, the land of 10,000 lakes. And like 70 percent
                                                              of my fellow Minnesotans, I am an outdoor enthusiast. I am fortu-
                                                              nate that I am also able to further foster the enjoyment and protec-
                                                              tion of our great outdoors through my role as general manager and
                                                              certified marina manager at Sunnyside Marina, a private marina
                                                              on the St. Croix River. I also serve as the president of the Midwest
                                                              Marina Association, representing 25 marinas on the St. Croix
                                                              River, Mississippi River, Lake Minnetonka, and Lake Superior
                                                              with over 6,000 boaters.
                                                                 MMA works collaboratively with the National Marine Manufac-
                                                              turers Association, the Association of Marina Industries, and the
                                                              Marine Retailers Association of the Americas. Sunnyside Marina,
                                                              along with other marinas on the St. Croix River, have been leaders
                                                              in the state’s Clean Marina program as part of a national program
                                                              that encourages marina operators and recreational boaters to pro-
                                                              tect water quality by engaging in environmentally sound operating
                                                              and maintenance procedures.
                                                                 I am proud to report we were the first marina in Minnesota to
                                                              install a water recycling system to capture, filter, and reuse the
                                                              water we use to wash boats at the end of the season, helping to
                                                              keep acids and metals out of the water. Lead by the recreational
                                                              boating industry, the outdoor recreation economy is a major con-
                                                              tributor to the U.S. economy accounting for 2.1 percent of GDP,
                                                              $788 billion in economic output, and most importantly, 5.2 million
                                                              American jobs. New powerboat sales in the U.S. increased last year
                                                              by an estimated 13 percent compared to 2019, reaching a 13-year
                                                              high. Four hundred fifteen first-time boat buyers entered the mar-
                                                              ket in 2020.
                                                                 This rise in outdoor recreation has both showcased the popularity
                                                              of such activities as a safe and fun way to spend time with loved
                                                              ones and illuminated one of the most pressing issues facing our in-
                                                              dustry. We need resilient infrastructure to protect access to recre-
                                                              ation and marine businesses and can adapt to our rapidly changing
                                                              climate.




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                                                                 Small businesses in the outdoor sector depend on robust infra-
                                                              structure to be able to make their living and they often face the
                                                              brunt of natural disasters like flooding, wildfires, hurricanes,
                                                              earthquakes, tornadoes, and mega droughts, leaving them damaged
                                                              and unable to operate. When they are unable to operate, the jobs
                                                              and families they support are at risk. Local economies depend on
                                                              small businesses like these.
                                                                 According to FEMA, natural disasters have cost the U.S. $800
                                                              billion in the past decade and have been the direct cause of thou-
                                                              sands of businesses shutting down. Small businesses are particu-
                                                              larly susceptible to these dire economic effects with 40 to 60 per-
                                                              cent never reopening after a natural disaster.
                                                                 I thank the Committee for holding today’s hearing to discuss how
                                                              the SBA can better support small businesses in providing climate
                                                              solutions and for allowing me to shine a light on the significant
                                                              role small businesses play in driving the outdoor economy. Small
                                                              businesses in our industry are in jeopardy without investments in
                                                              climate resilient recreation infrastructure. The time to fortify recre-
                                                              ation infrastructure from the impacts of climate change is now.
                                                              Fortunately, a bipartisan infrastructure deal is in negotiation and
                                                              infrastructure resiliency is a primary for both the administration
                                                              and the bipartisan group of senators leading this process.
                                                                 The infrastructure package presents an opportunity to utilize the
                                                              SBA as a resource to help small businesses protect themselves from
                                                              the costly damages of climate change. To accomplish this, Congress
                                                              should include language from the PREPARE Act and the resiliency
                                                              title of any infrastructure package that moves forward. To allow
                                                              small businesses to access much needed capital, to invest in dis-
                                                              aster resilient infrastructure, this landmark legislation will allow
                                                              the SBA to make low interest, fixed rate loans of up to $500,000
                                                              to small businesses to invest in their properties to protect against
                                                              natural disasters.
                                                                 We applaud the Committee on small business in spearheading
                                                              this proposal that would create an integral tool for building more
                                                              resilient recreation access, protecting vulnerable communities, and
                                                              rebuilding local economies. The recreational boating industry looks
                                                              forward to continue to work with the members of this Sub-
                                                              committee and other Committees of jurisdiction to protect and ex-
                                                              pand opportunities for recreation going forward. And we thank you
                                                              very much for the opportunity to appear today and I look forward
                                                              to taking your questions.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you, Mr. Chapman.
                                                                 And now I recognize Dr. Abramson for 5 minutes for your open-
                                                              ing statement.

                                                                                      STATEMENT OF LYNN ABRAMSON
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. Thank you, Chairman Phillips, Ranking Mem-
                                                              ber Van Duyne, and members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for
                                                              the opportunity to testify today on the SBA’s role in climate solu-
                                                              tions.
                                                                 I also want to take a moment to thank the Committee on Small
                                                              Business for providing critical lifelines of support for small busi-
                                                              nesses throughout the COVID-19 pandemic.




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                                                                I am Lynn Abramson, president of the Clean Energy Business
                                                              Network, which serves as a small business voice for the clean en-
                                                              ergy economy. Our nonpartisan, nonprofit organization works with
                                                              more than 5,000 small and mid-size clean energy business leaders
                                                              across all 50 U.S. states and a very broad spectrum of energy tech-
                                                              nologies.
                                                                These businesses include innovators like Exergy Predictive in St.
                                                              Paul, Minnesota, which is developing cloud computing to support
                                                              electric vehicle fleet deployment. And they include UHV tech-
                                                              nologies in Fort Worth, Texas, which has developed an X-ray tech-
                                                              nology to enable faster and more efficient recycling of scrap metals.
                                                                I would like to share with you my perspective of clean energy as
                                                              an economic engine, the role of small businesses, and what policies
                                                              can best support our nation’s clean tech entrepreneurs.
                                                                First, clean energy drives a competitive economy. The past dec-
                                                              ade has seen significant growth in energy efficiency, natural gas,
                                                              and renewable energy. Today, more than 3 million Americans earn
                                                              a living in the clean energy economy with roughly 70 percent of
                                                              those workers employed by small businesses.
                                                                As we rebuild our economy investing in new clean energy tech-
                                                              nologies is one of the best things that we can do to create good jobs
                                                              for regular people right now while reaping long-term benefits for
                                                              decades to come.
                                                                First, we must continue to invest in energy innovation programs
                                                              such as the American Made challenges, the advanced research
                                                              projects, agency energy, and the small business innovation research
                                                              and small business technology transfer programs.
                                                                There are also a number of ways we can make these crucial pro-
                                                              grams even more accessible and impactful for entrepreneurs. I
                                                              have outlined these recommendations in my written testimony and
                                                              I am happy to speak on them further.
                                                                We must also continue to build an ecosystem of entrepreneurial
                                                              support throughout the nation through regional centers such as the
                                                              national laboratories, incubators and accelerators, and small manu-
                                                              facturers. And we must improve financing opportunities for dem-
                                                              onstration projects to overcome the final valley of death to commer-
                                                              cialization and help turn energy innovations into successful compa-
                                                              nies.
                                                                Finally, we must strengthen Federal coordination to help entre-
                                                              preneurs access the breadth of available programs to support their
                                                              work. The Small Business Administration can play an important
                                                              role in coordinating with other Federal agencies to curate and pro-
                                                              mote such information.
                                                                My written testimony includes a link to a letter signed by more
                                                              than 200 business leaders urging Congress to act swiftly on an in-
                                                              frastructure package that addresses such recommendations. We
                                                              hope that the Senate’s bipartisan Energy Infrastructure Act and
                                                              the House’s LIFT Act will provide a basis for bicameral, bipartisan
                                                              negotiation and enactment of an infrastructure deal.
                                                                Investing in American technology has a history of paying off.
                                                              From landing a man on the moon to putting computers in our pock-
                                                              ets, to developing COVID vaccines, government investment has
                                                              been key to America’s success. It is time to empower America’s
                                                              small clean energy businesses to unlock their most brilliant ideas




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                                                              for tackling climate change while building the economy of the fu-
                                                              ture.
                                                                Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
                                                                Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you, Doctor.
                                                                And now I recognize Mr. Glenn for 5 minutes for your opening
                                                              statement.
                                                                                           STATEMENT OF MARK GLENN
                                                                 Mr. GLENN. Good morning, Chairman Phillips, and Ranking
                                                              Member Van Duyne.
                                                                 Thank you for your strong bipartisan support efforts to save
                                                              businesses like mine through the pandemic. I was a recipient of
                                                              PPP loans and I am grateful for your support. It really made a dif-
                                                              ference in our business.
                                                                 My name is Mark Glenn, and I am the CEO and multiunit owner
                                                              of four FASTSIGNS locations in the Dallas area. My wife Shawn
                                                              and I became business owners in 2011 after spending 15 years in
                                                              the corporate headquarters of FASTSIGNS. FASTSIGNS is a sign
                                                              and visual graphics company and is the sign industry’s leading
                                                              franchise system. The system is 100 percent owned by franchisees
                                                              just like me. I do believe that all stakeholders, including small
                                                              businesses, have a role to play in the responsible, sustainable stew-
                                                              ardship of our planet. But, as a small business owner still recov-
                                                              ering from the pandemic, my main focus right now is on rebuilding
                                                              our employee team and navigating policy uncertainties that may
                                                              have real world bottom line impacts on our balance sheet.
                                                                 I would like to share my experience with the critical labor short-
                                                              age issue. It is real and it is crippling to the business. My four loca-
                                                              tions generally have 28 to 30 staff. I currently have four open posi-
                                                              tions that cannot be filled right now due to a lack of quality appli-
                                                              cants. That is roughly 10 percent of my workforce is unfilled. I
                                                              strive to be an employer of choice through competitive wages and
                                                              career building opportunities. These are good paying jobs in a
                                                              strong industry with a career that can be built upon. We have
                                                              made extraordinary efforts to recruit and hire talented candidates.
                                                              Not only have we posted job openings on traditional online job plat-
                                                              forms and on social media, but we are offering referral incentives
                                                              and joining local job fairs like the one recently hosted by Ranking
                                                              Member Van Duyne.
                                                                 My on-the-ground experience is that the expanded unemploy-
                                                              ment insurance is keeping people home right now. I fully under-
                                                              stand and I appreciate that there are continued childcare chal-
                                                              lenges as we come out of the pandemic, but my firsthand real-world
                                                              experience is that candidates are sharing during these hiring proc-
                                                              esses.
                                                                 The staffing shortage is without a doubt my biggest hurdle to
                                                              meet customer service and market needs. I am worried about po-
                                                              tential tax increases and threats to the franchise business model.
                                                              Policy uncertainties have real-world impacts because our everyday
                                                              business decisions rely on certainty. For those of us outside of
                                                              Washington, D.C., we often hear about potential tax increases asso-
                                                              ciated with infrastructure, spending, or budget debates. I want to
                                                              emphasize that increasing taxes on small businesses can take the
                                                              lifeblood needed to help with this recovery. This forces us to take




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                                                              cash and allocate to taxes rather than increasing pay for staff or
                                                              creating promotional opportunities for our employees.
                                                                 As you know, small businesses’ incomes appear on their personal
                                                              tax return. There is a real difference between a hedge fund man-
                                                              ager’s tax return showing over $1 million in income where zero jobs
                                                              are created and a small business owner that shows a profit that
                                                              is essential to take risk and create jobs.
                                                                 I am concerned about the House’s support for the PRO Act and
                                                              how close this bill is to becoming law. I am concerned about how
                                                              franchise brands will react to the increased liability.
                                                                 As franchise contracts come up for renewal, franchise brands will
                                                              be encouraged to convert locations into corporate locations. These
                                                              policies hurt small business owners the most. I welcome the oppor-
                                                              tunity to work with you to find a better solution for workers and
                                                              business owners. The franchising sector needs certainty and should
                                                              be supported, especially because it provides wealth-building oppor-
                                                              tunities that are important for underserved communities. Fran-
                                                              chising is also good paying jobs.
                                                                 In my written testimony, I included a new study by IFA and Ox-
                                                              ford Economics that shows a wage and benefit premium associated
                                                              with franchise jobs in certain industries. Thirty-two percent of re-
                                                              spondents also said they would not be business owners without
                                                              franchising which translates to about 60,000 small businesses
                                                              across the economy. That percentage was even higher for women-
                                                              owned and first-time business owners. Franchisees also have mate-
                                                              rial higher sales on average than independent small businesses in-
                                                              cluding among women and people of color. Together, I truly believe
                                                              we can build a stronger economy if the right policy environment is
                                                              provided.
                                                                 Thank you again for allowing me to testify today. I look forward
                                                              to your questions.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you, Mr. Glenn. And gratitude to
                                                              all of our witnesses for being with us today and for your work and
                                                              engagement on this issue.
                                                                 I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes. My first ques-
                                                              tion is to you, Ms. Walk.
                                                                 You spoke of the 504 program which, of course has accelerated
                                                              in the post-pandemic economy as businesses and optimism have
                                                              improved, but you reference that we may be hitting the $7.5 billion
                                                              cap sooner than expected which would cause the program to shut
                                                              down before the end of the fiscal year. So could you elaborate for
                                                              our Committee how a 504 program shutdown would impact the
                                                              ability of small businesses to access affordable growth capital?
                                                                 Ms. WALK. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for your question. Yes.
                                                                 Since the recovery 504 volume has been higher than we have
                                                              seen in a long time and we have seen more and more businesses
                                                              taking advantage of the program with its low interest rates and
                                                              long-term fixed rate for the borrower, it is very attractive for busi-
                                                              nesses that are looking to purchase real estate. Overall, nation-
                                                              wide, we are up 37 percent in volume which just shows the appe-
                                                              tite of businesses that are looking to make that commitment and
                                                              purchase a building and really recovery from the pandemic
                                                              robustly.




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                                                                 If the program were to shut down, all of those businesses would
                                                              be in a waiting pattern until the program reopened in October, and
                                                              that would be very detrimental for our businesses. Businesses that
                                                              are out trying to purchase real estate are competing with investors
                                                              and other entities that have more cash. They are constantly being
                                                              told if they do not meet their closing deadlines they will not get the
                                                              property. If there is a delay in how they get their financing, or
                                                              worse, if they are not able to get the financing they were planning
                                                              on with a lower equity requirement, they will lose the property and
                                                              that could seriously impact their business.
                                                                 One of the wonderful pieces of the 504 program is that it allows
                                                              borrowers to bring 10 percent equity injection to the project. Typi-
                                                              cally, on a conventional commercial real estate loan you are seeing
                                                              that at 20-25 percent. So that savings of capital is so critical for
                                                              our businesses. And if there was anything that would hinder that
                                                              from the program, if there was a pause, if businesses had to wait,
                                                              it would be very detrimental.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. So fair to say that time is of the essence?
                                                                 Ms. WALK. Yes. Very much so.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. All right. Thank you.
                                                                 Mr. Chapman, you spoke of natural disasters, of course, impact-
                                                              ing small businesses throughout the country from powerful storms
                                                              to fires to drought to low water levels. And of course, in our home
                                                              state of Minnesota, oftentimes even a lack of snow during the win-
                                                              ter season are affecting small businesses. What can you tell us
                                                              about how your business has adapted throughout the pandemic and
                                                              what lessons have you learned that might support our response to
                                                              climate events in the future?
                                                                 Mr. CHAPMAN. Well, so currently in Minnesota right now we
                                                              are experiencing low water. And the thing about the climate
                                                              change is we do not know whether it is going to be low water or
                                                              high water or what the issue is going to be. But that is why we
                                                              spend so much time talking about infrastructure because all of that
                                                              infrastructure, from locks and dams to just simple things that we
                                                              have to do to prepare for high water, for instance, making sure
                                                              that power sources are above the highest waterline and making
                                                              sure that fuel tanks are secure if they are above ground. Those are
                                                              the kind of things that unfortunately we often react to after the
                                                              disaster has occurred instead of being proactive and having those
                                                              things in place before the disaster occurs. So I think that the Small
                                                              Business Administration could really help in this situation espe-
                                                              cially with small marinas, small individual owners to help them
                                                              prepare before the disaster strikes if you will. I do not know if I
                                                              did a great job of answering that question.
                                                                 In regards to the pandemic, I should just say the pandemic had
                                                              the opposite effect on the recreational boating industry. I am sure
                                                              all of you know that anything to do with outdoor activity is seeing
                                                              an enormous boom. We were not expecting this. I was last March
                                                              applying for payroll protection and then all of a sudden we had the
                                                              busiest season we have ever had and now we are doing it again
                                                              this year with even a busier season. So the pandemic for us has
                                                              been incredibly good for business. I feel sorry for small businesses
                                                              that cannot say that but for the recreational boating industry, we
                                                              are really seeing a boom because of the pandemic.




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                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. And fair to say that you would like to see
                                                              Congress and the SBA prioritize resiliency, investments, and sup-
                                                              port?
                                                                 Mr. CHAPMAN. Absolutely. That is the whole point is trying to
                                                              make sure that we are building better before the disaster strikes
                                                              would be really beneficial to these small operators. I represent a
                                                              number of privately, family-owned marinas from the Midwest Ma-
                                                              rina Association and that is what they are telling me is that it
                                                              would be really, you know, it is not just the locks and dams which,
                                                              you know, falls on the Army Corps. It is the stuff that we can do
                                                              at our individual marinas to help prepare ourselves for the disaster
                                                              that might be coming next.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. And I think you just coined a new phrase:
                                                              build back better before. You just added another B to that one.
                                                                 Thank you. I appreciate your answer.
                                                                 Last month, the International Trade Center at the United Na-
                                                              tions issued a report on the pandemic entitled ‘‘Empowering a
                                                              Green Recovery.’’ The report states that while the range of likely
                                                              impacts varies depending on the model used, the economic damage
                                                              of climate change could be as bad as having a pandemic the size
                                                              of COVID-19 every 10 years.
                                                                 Ms. Abramson, the pandemic revealed just how vulnerable small
                                                              businesses are to unanticipated economic events. So why is it im-
                                                              portant that we have a conversation about aligning our resources
                                                              to mitigate climate events now as businesses are still struggling to
                                                              recover from COVID-19 impacts?
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. Thank you.
                                                                 I think some of the points that both Ms. Walk and Mr. Chapman
                                                              raised resonate with the clean energy businesses that I work with,
                                                              as well as their customers, the small businesses around the nation
                                                              in terms of preparation. And so you raised earlier the concern
                                                              about how COVID-19 caught us all unprepared and unaware. And
                                                              I think it has really highlighted how much we need to anticipate
                                                              and plan for risk. And certainly, climate change related natural
                                                              disasters, you know, extreme weather, as well as sort of the chang-
                                                              ing impacts on our economy are things that we need to prepare for.
                                                              So investing in resilient infrastructure up front to better accommo-
                                                              date these changes is absolutely critical for all of our small busi-
                                                              nesses.
                                                                 And I think in addition to the general impact that it will have
                                                              on our economy and in helping businesses of all sizes prepare for
                                                              these extreme weather events, it also helps to generate new indus-
                                                              tries and jobs. And so we actually saw that prior to the COVID-
                                                              19 pandemic the clean industries were the growth sectors of the
                                                              U.S. energy economy and were adding all sorts of new diversified
                                                              technologies to our portfolio. And generating some very high-paying
                                                              jobs in the process. So I think that we can really achieve a double
                                                              benefit by investing in clean and resilient technology that not only
                                                              helps us better withstand some of the stressors on our economy but
                                                              also helps to generate new industries.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you.
                                                                 And forgive me, my time is long expired. Forgive me.
                                                                 I am going to turn it over to Ms. Van Duyne for 5 minutes.
                                                                 Ms. VAN DUYNE. Great. Thank you.




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                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. For 3 minutes.
                                                                 Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much.
                                                                 Mr. Glenn, in your testimony—first of all, thank you very much.
                                                              I appreciate your testimony. You state that the primary challenge
                                                              we, as small business owners face with staffing has come from the
                                                              expanded unemployment benefits which has become a small busi-
                                                              ness owner’s biggest hurdle to recruiting and hiring candidates.
                                                              Why do you believe this is such a hurdle and what should Congress
                                                              do moving forward?
                                                                 Mr. GLENN. Thank you for the question. I am happy to address
                                                              that.
                                                                 Not only me, but just in talking with other small business own-
                                                              ers, the issue has been the same. We have gone, just as a side note,
                                                              we as a sign company have gone and offered signage, now hiring
                                                              signage to business neighbors of ours in the community. And we
                                                              are trying to do everything we can. But the real issue is the com-
                                                              petition is the federal government with the added unemployment
                                                              subsidies that many have been receiving. A plus for us here in the
                                                              state of Texas as Governor Greg Abbott has declined as of late last
                                                              month, declined the Federal benefit for recipients receiving these.
                                                              That has helped some with that. But just to give you an example,
                                                              we have ads out on job lines. And these are good positions. These
                                                              are graphic designer positions. These are equipment operators. And
                                                              these are sales positions with a very competitive earning range.
                                                              And we have received resumes with no qualification at all that just
                                                              were not legitimate candidates for us. And so that is the type of
                                                              challenges we are facing as small business owners. And again, it
                                                              is just not isolated with me. I stay very close to the business com-
                                                              munity and through the chambers, the local chambers and busi-
                                                              ness associations, and we are all facing the same here. And fortu-
                                                              nately for me and the ones, the others that I speak with, the major-
                                                              ity of us are in Texas and it is not as bad. It would really be a
                                                              tough time if we were not in the state of Texas and were still up
                                                              against these challenges. And people are not leaving their homes
                                                              to seek jobs because financially, in my opinion, they do not have
                                                              to at this point.
                                                                 Ms. VAN DUYNE. All right. Thank you.
                                                                 As you know, this administration is proposing a number of
                                                              changes to the Tax Code to pay for their spending plans. While de-
                                                              tails continue to be debated, how could tax increases impact small
                                                              businesses? And do you believe that it could impact investment de-
                                                              cisions?
                                                                 Mr. GLENN. It would absolutely impact decisions that a small
                                                              business owner would be forced to take. It would be critical for us
                                                              that that cash would be at the expense of the operation of the busi-
                                                              ness. The investment to our employees. The additional training.
                                                              With the taxes we currently pay, I look at the taxes that I pay each
                                                              year, and if I knew that money did not have to go to those areas,
                                                              I think of all the other things that I could do to improve the busi-
                                                              ness, to add more jobs. So it is very concerning with the uncer-
                                                              tainty of any new taxes coming to us that we, as small
                                                              businessowners, would shoulder the burden of those payments. It
                                                              is very concerning.




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                                                                 Ms. VAN DUYNE. Can you talk about the impact of rising costs
                                                              and inflationary pressures on small businesses that operate on the
                                                              margins as yours does? And do you think Congress should avoid
                                                              policies that would increase inflation?
                                                                 Mr. GLENN. Congress should avoid that by all means. Let cap-
                                                              italism work at its best and free flowing without any interference.
                                                              We have seen with our materials, specifically our plastic materials
                                                              used to create signs are petroleum-based in many cases. We have
                                                              seen increases along those around 30 percent so far. And it is still
                                                              coming up. Not only the increases but shortages. Additionally, alu-
                                                              minum products have gone up drastically for us. About 30 percent
                                                              of our revenue is aluminum products and those have not only with
                                                              shortages but increasing costs for us, we are very reluctant to stay
                                                              competitive in the market to pass along those increases. We are ab-
                                                              sorbing some of that in our pricing but it comes to a point where
                                                              you can no longer do that and sustain the business and make a
                                                              profit. It is very challenging and the last thing we want is the gov-
                                                              ernment to become a factor with that.
                                                                 Ms. VAN DUYNE. We have discussed a number of challenges
                                                              facing small businesses today from labor shortages to inflation to
                                                              taxes. The topic of today’s hearing is the SBA’s role in climate solu-
                                                              tions. When you think back on the last year, where did the climate
                                                              issue rank in your list of concerns and do you think the SBA
                                                              should be focusing on it over items like access to capital and labor
                                                              issues?
                                                                 Mr. GLENN. If I look back at the past 16 months or basically
                                                              all of 2020, the environmental issues would rank relatively low con-
                                                              sidering the other issues that were much more urgent as a result
                                                              of the pandemic. And these were things that as a small business
                                                              owner we, in many cases, had to totally reshape our business
                                                              model. I was very fortunate that we were buffered by some of that
                                                              with COVID-related signage. We did have some nice projects that
                                                              kept people employed. But at the height of the uncertainty, we
                                                              were making those adjustments as well. So any climate issues, they
                                                              were not top of mind with not only just me but other small busi-
                                                              nesses outside my industry as well. It is not something that we
                                                              were forced to deal with at the time. It was more how do we react
                                                              and adjust our business to the uncertain economy of the past 12
                                                              months?
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you, sir. The gentlelady’s time is
                                                              expired.
                                                                 Now I recognize the gentlelady from California, Ms. Chu, for 5
                                                              minutes.
                                                                 Ms. CHU. Dr. Abramson, as the clean economy rebounds from
                                                              COVID and resumes its enormous growth across the country, it
                                                              will be especially important to ensure that we have a trained work-
                                                              force that can quickly step into skilled high-paying union jobs in
                                                              the green economy. And we have an incredible opportunity to do
                                                              that through President Biden’s American Jobs Plan, especially
                                                              through a new civilian climate corps. That is why I introduced H.R.
                                                              4220, the National Climate Service Corps and Careers Network Act
                                                              of 2021 which would create a new program under AmeriCorps to
                                                              complete climate-related projects. But most importantly, this bill
                                                              will also create a new climate careers network to connect partici-




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                                                              pants with high-paying, long-term careers using the skills they ac-
                                                              quired in the corps.
                                                                 So could you talk about the job placement needs of small busi-
                                                              nesses in the clean energy industry today and how you see that de-
                                                              mand increasing as we make major investments into
                                                              decarbonization? How can both a climate service corps and a dedi-
                                                              cated climate careers network help clean energy small businesses
                                                              find qualified and trained marine energy workers?
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. Thank you, Congresswoman. I think that is a
                                                              very important issue and I just want to acknowledge, I think some
                                                              of the labor shortages that Mr. Glenn spoke about are challenges
                                                              we have seen across small businesses. But unlike I think more typ-
                                                              ical small businesses, the clean energy economy has faced those
                                                              labor shortages prior to the pandemic and I think the major factor
                                                              influencing those shortages has been the lack of appropriately
                                                              trained and skilled workers to support our industry.
                                                                 The U.S. Energy Employment Report, which is an annual report
                                                              tracking trends in the clean energy economy and workforce has
                                                              consistently reported that small businesses and large corporations
                                                              in the clean energy sector face a shortage of appropriately skilled
                                                              workers. And so I think getting more of these kinds of economic op-
                                                              portunities in front of communities training workers, whether it is
                                                              through apprenticeship type programs such as what you are envi-
                                                              sioning, working with our community colleges as well as our higher
                                                              institutions of learning to make sure we are training people for the
                                                              jobs of the future is very important.
                                                                 I also want to note that I believe that workforce development is
                                                              critical to ensuring that the clean energy industry is more rep-
                                                              resentative of the United States population as a whole. And we
                                                              have seen that, for example, across energy sectors, and this is
                                                              broadly speaking, women represent about 23 to 32 percent of the
                                                              workforce in the energy economy compared to roughly half of the
                                                              workforce nationwide. And specifically, when it comes to small
                                                              business leadership and ownership, we see that only about 7 to 8
                                                              percent of the Department of Energy’s small business innovation
                                                              research awards are going to women-owned or minority-led busi-
                                                              nesses. So this is a significant concern. I think that we see that the
                                                              clean energy sectors are the growth sectors of the energy economy,
                                                              and if we do not make sure that these are inclusive sectors then
                                                              we will definitely be leaving whole segments of our population out
                                                              of that potential for economic growth.
                                                                 Ms. CHU. Thank you for that.
                                                                 Mr. Chapman, I am so glad that you are here to talk about the
                                                              importance of community resiliency for the small business econ-
                                                              omy. We know that climate cost disasters are increasing and hav-
                                                              ing a terrible disproportionate impact on small businesses. In Cali-
                                                              fornia, my state, wildfires in 2018 caused $150 billion in economic
                                                              damage. And now that the state faces a historic drought, we have
                                                              to prepare for a fire season that could be even more damaging. So
                                                              that is why the National Climate Service Corps that I talked about
                                                              could improve community resilience and complete projects that
                                                              would address sustainability.




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                                                                 Could you talk about what it would mean for your industry to
                                                              mobilize thousands of young people across the country to complete
                                                              these projects?
                                                                 Mr. CHAPMAN. Yeah. So we are also experiencing in the rec-
                                                              reational boating industry I think the same thing that happens to
                                                              a lot of industries in regards to finding the right or the qualified
                                                              employees. And part of it is just because right now for us it is spe-
                                                              cifically technicians. It is specifically the technicians that work on
                                                              the boats. I know that the automobile industry is having the same
                                                              issue but trying to find those kind of skilled people just to come
                                                              into the industry is very, very difficult. So a program like what you
                                                              are talking about which would potentially bring young people into
                                                              an industry that we are having a hard time getting young people
                                                              to come into would be extremely beneficial.
                                                                 Ms. CHU. Thank you.
                                                                 I yield back.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. The gentlelady yields back.
                                                                 And now I recognize the Ranking Member on the Subcommittee
                                                              on Underserved, Agricultural, and Rural Business Development,
                                                              Mr. Hagedorn, the gentleman from Minnesota.
                                                                 Mr. HAGEDORN. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that.
                                                                 I agree with Ranking Member Van Duyne. I think this hearing
                                                              is a little bit offtrack. We should probably be focusing more on the
                                                              supply chain issues, labor shortages, and things that are really af-
                                                              fecting our small businesses now. And frankly, I do not think there
                                                              is any discernible positive outcome that anybody can point to as to
                                                              these changes that people are talking about making. I would just
                                                              add this though: you know, technology is great and we want better
                                                              products, higher quality products, but they need to be at the same
                                                              price. They need to be as reliable. And we do not always get that
                                                              in this whole green energy sector. As a matter of fact, to put this
                                                              in perspective, look, China, Communist China alone emits more
                                                              carbon than all the developed countries in the world. Three times
                                                              more than the United States. So I think we can talk about changes
                                                              here of small businesses but it is going to mean nothing compared
                                                              to what has to happen. If you think this is the big problem, you
                                                              have got to go after China. You are going to have to go after India.
                                                              And I do not think we should be taxing and burdening our own sec-
                                                              tors more than that. If you really want to help the world get rid
                                                              of carbon emissions, we should be producing way more natural gas
                                                              in the United States, like in Congressman Meuser’s district and ex-
                                                              porting that to China so they can produce electricity cleaner, have
                                                              more nuclear power. These are the things that make the big dif-
                                                              ference. And so those are great jobs in the United States. That
                                                              means it creates wealth in the United States. It puts China in a
                                                              position where they are dependent on us. But instead, this admin-
                                                              istration under Biden attacking U.S. energy, going after the life-
                                                              blood of our economy, it is absolutely I think disgusting what they
                                                              are doing. And they are going to destroy our economy and our way
                                                              of life if we are not careful and we cannot let that happen.
                                                                 So, you know, we do not want to exchange U.S. energy independ-
                                                              ence for dependence on China. And that is what we would have
                                                              with a ‘‘clean energy economy.’’ China has cornered the market for
                                                              the most part on rare materials and the minerals that we need for




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                                                              solar panels, wind generators, batteries for lithium. Why do we
                                                              want to be dependent on China? Why would we not be dependent
                                                              on the United States, independent like we are now, and we are
                                                              going to lose that very quickly. It makes absolutely no sense. Our
                                                              country became a great economic power because of homegrown U.S.
                                                              energy, reliable, abundant, affordable, and we do not want to get
                                                              away from that.
                                                                 So Dr. Abramson, I will ask you this. I have never met a small
                                                              businessperson that said increase my energy costs. Not one. As a
                                                              matter of fact, lower energy cost is really good for business. So I
                                                              do not know if you represent any manufacturers or people like that
                                                              but some of these manufacturers spend 15, 20, 30 percent of every-
                                                              thing they do and they produce on energy. So we are going to swap
                                                              out energy sources that are low cost with energy sources that are
                                                              not as low cost and certainly not as reliable. How does that help
                                                              small businesses in that sector, manufacturing especially?
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. Thank you, Congressman. And I agree with
                                                              you. I think that reducing energy cost is critical for small busi-
                                                              nesses and manufacturers. And we actually, frankly, have a lot of
                                                              manufacturers of clean energy technologies within our network.
                                                              And they are consumers of energy as well.
                                                                 Mr. HAGEDORN. That is a piecemeal thing. The policies that
                                                              the Democrat party is talking about are top-down Washington,
                                                              D.C. policies that are going to pick winners and losers in the en-
                                                              ergy sectors and they are going to swap out all sorts of traditional
                                                              technology for new technology. The new technology is not as reli-
                                                              able. The new technology is much more expensive and you cannot
                                                              even do it on a grand scale today. It is not even feasible. If you
                                                              went and did it today, we could not produce the electricity that we
                                                              needed. So I mean, I understand you can have a business that puts
                                                              up solar panels or something and you can say that is cheaper, but
                                                              we are talking about the whole economy and we are talking about
                                                              our whole energy sector. How is that going to be good to increase
                                                              energy prices for our small businesses?
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. Well, I want to actually start by clarifying
                                                              some of the businesses within our network do work in the indus-
                                                              tries you mentioned such as natural gas and nuclear energy. And
                                                              one of the things that we advocate for is a portfolio-based approach
                                                              to diversifying our energy economy. And investing across the board
                                                              in energy innovation. And some of the things you highlighted in
                                                              terms of America’s leadership in the energy economy I fully agree.
                                                              I mean, we need to look at our critical minerals. We need to look
                                                              at technologies across the board including looking at our fossil en-
                                                              ergy industry and ways to help it decarbonize and keep up with
                                                              some of the technology innovations that we are seeing across the
                                                              globe.
                                                                 Mr. HAGEDORN. Everybody is crossways here. I mean, in Min-
                                                              nesota, we have a mine up in Northern Minnesota that could
                                                              produce all the copper we need but the people on the left do not
                                                              want us to go get that copper. Instead, we have to rely on, for in-
                                                              stance, China and others. And I think that, I agree, nuclear power
                                                              is good. All these other things. But if we cannot swap out the tech-
                                                              nology and keep it as low cost, reliable, and abundant, we should




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                                                              not do it. And like I said, if you are really concerned about this
                                                              issue, I would focus on China.
                                                                 I yield back.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. The gentleman’s time is expired.
                                                                 I just remind my colleagues, this is not a hearing about China.
                                                              It is not a hearing about mining. It is not a hearing about the
                                                              price——
                                                                 Mr. HAGEDORN. Why is not a hearing on whatever I want to
                                                              talk about, sir?
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. I am just reminding colleagues that to-
                                                              day’s hearing is about how we support small businesses in our
                                                              country, in Pennsylvania and Minnesota and California and Indi-
                                                              ana and Texas, those who are suffering from the consequences of
                                                              climate change, which is real. Plain and simple. Fires, low water
                                                              tables, lack of snow. That is what today’s——
                                                                 Mr. HAGEDORN. So what are you talking about doing today
                                                              that is going to change anything tomorrow?
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. So that is what today’s topic is and I ask
                                                              that my colleagues focus on that.
                                                                 Now I recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Evans,
                                                              for 5 minutes.
                                                                 Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
                                                                 My question is to Ms. Walk. There are a number of job opportu-
                                                              nities in both construction and installation of energy efficient up-
                                                              grades. How does the increase of energy efficiency and the de-
                                                              creased cost of electric renewable energies help to keep the energy
                                                              intense American business competitive in a global economy and
                                                              how can the 504 program help small businesses achieve this
                                                              growth and competitiveness?
                                                                 Ms. WALK. Thank you for the question.
                                                                 You know, we have seen when our businesses are installing and
                                                              looking to the green energy pieces to add renewable energy, you
                                                              know, working closely with those providing installation. We have
                                                              seen an increase in that really statewide here in doing that. And
                                                              I think, the more that small businesses have access to renewable
                                                              energy, the more that it makes sense for them from a business per-
                                                              spective, like some of the businesses I highlighted in my testimony.
                                                              You know, the first business I talked about within there, the Com-
                                                              edy Club, their decision to include solar really ended up being a
                                                              huge cost savings. You can see that in the comments that we heard
                                                              from our other businesses as well. Something that they really were
                                                              not considering but came about because of the 504 program ended
                                                              up really having a great impact for the business, for the bottom
                                                              line, and for the overall energy consumption of the business. So I
                                                              think the 504, by taking what is in place, the 504 has a great sys-
                                                              tem in place. It is a program that has been well-established. And
                                                              increasing those enhancements and making it more attractive to
                                                              small businesses helps the entire energy consumption deplete and
                                                              it helps our businesses save capital.
                                                                 Mr. EVANS. Do you have any kinds of suggestions of how we can
                                                              augment the program in any way?
                                                                 Ms. WALK. Yeah. As I outlined, I think, one of the things that
                                                              we could do especially with the equity injection, I think if we could
                                                              open the program for businesses that are utilizing renewable ener-




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                                                              gies and reduce the equity requirement from 10 to 5 percent would
                                                              be phenomenal. I think that would be a savings that would be wel-
                                                              comed by all of our borrowers as capital has become so critical. It
                                                              is something you have heard over and over here today. I think you
                                                              could look to increase the cap for energy projects as well. Right now
                                                              it is at the 5.5. I think as costs increase, construction real estate,
                                                              increasing that makes the program more dynamic for the years to
                                                              come.
                                                                 Mr. EVANS. I thank you and I yield back the balance of my
                                                              time, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                 And now I recognize the Ranking Member on the Subcommittee
                                                              on Economic Growth, Tax, and Capital Access, Mr. Meuser, for 5
                                                              minutes.
                                                                 Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Chairman Phillips. I appreciate that.
                                                              Thank you, Dr. Abramson and all the other witnesses with us
                                                              today. I appreciate you being here very much. It is an interesting
                                                              topic.
                                                                 You know, I think it is okay, and I take the Chairman’s words
                                                              and my colleagues into consideration but I think it is fine to look
                                                              at the big picture here. Small businesses, what we can do for them,
                                                              the effects of climate change and how we can truly, what we can
                                                              do to create an environment to help them be more competitive yet
                                                              drive the idea of a cleaner climate; right? I mean, I think we all
                                                              want the cleanest environment possible in the shortest time pos-
                                                              sible that is economically feasible. It must be economically feasible.
                                                              And you know what is interesting about this debate, I tend to
                                                              think that it has been polluted by politics; right? I mean, you are
                                                              either in this debate, you are either a knuckle-dragging, climate-
                                                              denying neanderthal or you are an environmental wacko; right?
                                                              There are a lot of us in between. I certainly see myself as very
                                                              much in between.
                                                                 So natural gas, we went through that. It has lower costs for busi-
                                                              nesses, so particularly in Pennsylvania. We have some of the low-
                                                              est energy costs in the country, which absolutely should make us
                                                              more competitive. It has also made the United States 2 years in
                                                              the row having the least level of carbon emissions. We have to
                                                              admit that. We can call it a transitory energy source and all, and
                                                              that is fine. Let’s get to something that is better. But it has proven
                                                              to be important in both ways, costs and the environment.
                                                                 And do you know what is interesting? All of us as members and,
                                                              you know, you visit small businesses, mid-size businesses, large
                                                              businesses. They are finding it to be kind of cool to become green;
                                                              right? I mean, there are all kinds of new energy efficiency meas-
                                                              ures taking place. You know, the lights are going off when you
                                                              leave a room. They are investing in solar panels. Employees like
                                                              it. You know, it is a trend. It is a private sector trend and it is hap-
                                                              pening in rural Pennsylvania and in urban Pennsylvania. So it
                                                              must be throughout the country as well. So those are very impor-
                                                              tant things.
                                                                 So what we need to do is we need to help businesses do that. We
                                                              can remind them. Groups like yours I think are good to make sure
                                                              they know what is available, what the resources are, what sort of
                                                              tax credits. But at the same time that we are talking about low in-




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                                                              terest loans, we cannot be talking about tax increases because
                                                              China does fall into the big picture here; right? Because when our
                                                              small businesses become less competitive, that makes frankly the
                                                              Amazons more attractive. And, you know, unfortunately, most of
                                                              what people buy from Amazon comes from China where China, by
                                                              the way, is making something like one coal plant, building one coal
                                                              plant a week or something insane like that. So it does come into
                                                              play here and it is sort of a big picture situation.
                                                                 As well, what we have done with gasoline. Look at the cost of
                                                              gasoline. That is because of the rattling of the oil industry; right?
                                                              And at the same time, I do not know how many people know this,
                                                              Russia’s imports to the United States for oil is at an all-time high.
                                                              So what sense does that make; right? We do it in a cleaner way.
                                                              We should pursue that with, again, economically feasible regula-
                                                              tions.
                                                                 So, and we do have many tax credits, Dr. Abramson and others;
                                                              right? I mean, it is 26 percent Federal reduction for solar panels.
                                                              Okay. That is fine. States have additional. Many states do. We
                                                              have a $7,500 tax credit for EVs. Right? So wind turbines have
                                                              very extended programs and they are very controversial in Penn-
                                                              sylvania because they are not so environmentally friendly when
                                                              you put them in. They are really troublesome, particularly if they
                                                              are near any residential areas.
                                                                 Anyway, I have said a lot. I am going to ask you, since you are
                                                              sitting here, Dr. Abramson, to react to some of the things that I
                                                              have said.
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. Thank you. And there is a lot to unpack there.
                                                              But first, I want to thank you for your comments that this does not
                                                              have to be such a political issue. And I want to point out that a
                                                              lot of our members are all across the political spectrum and are in
                                                              this because they see this as an economic opportunity. And you
                                                              talked about some of that. And I want to highlight that, yes, nat-
                                                              ural gas has played a huge role in the decarbonization of our econ-
                                                              omy as well as the growth of affordable clean energy. And we really
                                                              believe that setting goal-based approaches for what directions we
                                                              want to see in terms of decarbonization as well as affordability and
                                                              reliability and resilience and then allowing different technologies to
                                                              compete in that market is really the way to get there rather than
                                                              necessarily picking winners and losers. That does not mean we do
                                                              not necessarily want to invest in technology hurdles to overcome
                                                              particular challenges that the hydrogen economy might face or
                                                              storage or solar, et cetera. But we think that market-based ap-
                                                              proaches are the way to go.
                                                                 On the Tax Code issues, I mean, we have focused more on the
                                                              incentive side of things and I do believe that the clean energy tax
                                                              incentives have been critical for fostering market pathways to help
                                                              reduce the costs of these technologies and really get them to the
                                                              point where now increasingly the cleanest sources of energy are be-
                                                              coming the cheapest and I am really interested to see the conversa-
                                                              tions going on in both the House and Senate. And in fact, in the
                                                              House, in quite a bipartisan manner, looking at potential pathways
                                                              down the road where we can encourage sort of technology-neutral,
                                                              goal-based approaches to the Tax Code. I think the certainty that
                                                              has been provided with technology-specific tax credits has been in-




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                                                              credibly valuable but we recognize that ultimately at some point,
                                                              you know, we have to think about these goal-based approaches.
                                                              And so——
                                                                 Mr. MEUSER. Thank you. I am sorry.
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. Yeah.
                                                                 Mr. MEUSER. I am way past my time.
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. No worries, but thank you very much, Con-
                                                              gressman.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. The gentleman’s time is expired but we
                                                              are going to move to a brief second round. And frankly, Mr.
                                                              Meuser, I really appreciate this exchange and your comments, and
                                                              if you are willing, we can come back to it in a moment.
                                                                 With that, we will move to a second round. I will recognize my-
                                                              self for 5 minutes.
                                                                 Mr. Chapman, I think you would agree, as probably most Com-
                                                              mittee members would agree and most small business owners, the
                                                              labor shortage is an issue. Inflation is an issue. Energy costs are
                                                              an issue. Tax burdens are a challenge. But because today’s topic is
                                                              about the effects of climate change on business and how we can
                                                              support small businesses, describe for us what you think would
                                                              happen if we addressed all those other issues but we did nothing
                                                              to support resiliency amongst small businesses in the United
                                                              States.
                                                                 Mr. CHAPMAN. Yeah. It is a tough topic, right, because I was
                                                              just thinking as I was listening to this last response that I just
                                                              wanted to use an example of something so simple that Sunnyside
                                                              Marina just took advantage of. We just changed out our lighting.
                                                              We went to all LED lighting in our warehouse, in our shop, in our
                                                              ship store. We spent about $8,000 to do it. Excel Energy was nice
                                                              enough to give us a rebate of about $2,000. So we put $6,000 into
                                                              this project. But guess what else happened? We lowered our elec-
                                                              tric bill by $200 a month, which obviously is going to pay off quick-
                                                              ly; right? So, you know, these are simple things that can be accom-
                                                              plished without, you know, really changing the world.
                                                                 But in regards to how we look at climate change and how we
                                                              look at what kind of things can happen to us, again, we are in a
                                                              low water situation right now. We literally have boats in St. Paul,
                                                              Minnesota, that are in their slips, sitting on the ground. They do
                                                              not have enough water to float. That is obviously a dredging issue.
                                                              But all of these things are related to climate change; right? So
                                                              what happens if we do not do anything? If we do not try to give
                                                              these small businesses the opportunity again to be prepared to
                                                              spend the money that they need to spend and with the help of the
                                                              Small Business Administration maybe lending them money to help
                                                              get some of this dredging done or get some of this other stuff done
                                                              that needs to be accomplished in order for them to stay in business.
                                                              You know, we need to see these small businesses not be able to
                                                              succeed simply because we do not want to address the issue just
                                                              because it might be related to climate change.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. I appreciate it, Mr. Chapman.
                                                                 Mr. Glenn, I know you are in Texas, a small business owner, and
                                                              you referenced a lot of the challenges small businesses face, and I
                                                              concur. They are all issues that we should consider and address.
                                                              But maybe share with us for a few moments if you would about




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                                                              what impact on your business you are seeing in Texas relative to
                                                              changing climate, weather events, droughts, the like. And equally
                                                              importantly, on your customers. The ones that come to you for
                                                              signs.
                                                                 Mr. GLENN. Sure. Thank you for the question.
                                                                 You know, one of the things we have seen and observed is we
                                                              have directly been impacted with some of the things, and one of the
                                                              most recent impacts climate-wise was the winter storm that Texas
                                                              faced in February. We were closed, along with most other busi-
                                                              nesses. We were closed for over a week so that definitely hurt
                                                              things. We had to be innovative on how we reacted to that. We set
                                                              people up remotely for work environments and tried to make do as
                                                              best we could with the business. But in terms of some of the things
                                                              that we do environmentally and how we can contribute to that, I
                                                              would like to share a little bit about what we do in our business
                                                              and some of the characteristics of the things that we have and
                                                              where we can kind of shrink our carbon footprint.
                                                                 So 30 percent of my revenue of selling signs is aluminum sign-
                                                              age. That is various types of signs made from aluminum products
                                                              is 30 percent. So in an ideal world we would use a 4-by-8 sheet of
                                                              aluminum, cut the sizes we need from that. In an ideal world we
                                                              would have zero scrap. But that is not reality. We have remnants.
                                                              We have scraps. And at 30 percent of a $5 million business, that
                                                              is a fair amount of scraps and aluminum that otherwise we could
                                                              just discard. But we make a point, 100 percent of that is recycled.
                                                              And, you know, aluminum has a lot of different uses other than
                                                              just the sign industry, of course.
                                                                 But to put that in perspective, in our volume and in our oper-
                                                              ation and within my production areas, that equates to three or four
                                                              trailer loads of scrap aluminum that we are recycling every year.
                                                              And so those are things like that. You know, Mr. Chapman men-
                                                              tioned LED lights. We have done that. You know, these are the
                                                              small things that will make a difference with us.
                                                                 Another thing I would bring up, too, and this is really something
                                                              that is probably not on the surface that anyone would thing about
                                                              but we have wide-format sign printers in our business. And the ink
                                                              cartridges, and how many ink cartridges we go through in a year,
                                                              and just in my operation, extrapolate that out within the industry,
                                                              but we make a point to recycle the ink cartridges. And keep in
                                                              mind, these cartridges are approximately the size of a small
                                                              shoebox. So they are not something that you would just want to
                                                              toss anywhere. So there is a recycling program for that as well.
                                                                 So these are some things that in our business that we do to try
                                                              to impact or lessen the impact that we have on the environment.
                                                              And so I just wanted to share those with you and just kind of let
                                                              you know kind of what we are doing out here, you know, on those
                                                              fronts.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. Thank you, sir. And we salute and cele-
                                                              brate those efforts with gratitude.
                                                                 With that I will recognize my friend from Pennsylvania, Mr.
                                                              Meuser, for another 5 minutes.
                                                                 Mr. MEUSER. Well, thanks again, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                 So, Dr. Abramson, you went through a list earlier of some of the
                                                              things and resources and advocacies and assets you have available




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                                                              for small business. Could you give me a summary of how you could
                                                              help and advocate some businesses in my district or any of our dis-
                                                              tricts for that matter?
                                                                 Ms. ABRAMSON. Thank you, Congressman.
                                                                 So I think one of the important things we have talked about is
                                                              trying to help make energy affordable for all small businesses. And
                                                              I think some of the programs that we discussed today, 504, other
                                                              sorts of financing assistance for modernizing energy infrastructure
                                                              and ensuring that our small businesses are getting the most out of
                                                              their money is really critical. And we see those kinds of assistance
                                                              programs provided at the Federal, state, and utility level.
                                                                 On the flipside, too, we have the providers of energy technologies,
                                                              and I have spoken a lot about energy innovation in this hearing.
                                                              And I would say about a quarter to a third of the members that
                                                              I work with are earlier stage companies. And they really excite me
                                                              because they represent the promise of the energy future and the
                                                              economy.
                                                                 And so I mentioned some of the critical Federal investments that
                                                              are very important to helping to get their ideas off of the table and
                                                              turn them into real businesses. And those include things like RPE,
                                                              SBIR, America’s Seed Fund, America Made Challenges program.
                                                              And these have enjoyed bipartisan support because these types of
                                                              programs really have helped with energy innovation and address-
                                                              ing our competitiveness son a global scale.
                                                                 We have outlined some proposed improvements to make some of
                                                              these programs even more impactful and accessible. And so actu-
                                                              ally, in my written testimony, I have included a link to a letter
                                                              where we have 115 business signatures recommending some im-
                                                              provements to SBIR. These are all pretty much low or zero cost
                                                              types of proposals that can be administered, some of them accom-
                                                              plished through administrative action and some through legisla-
                                                              tion. And they include things like trying to make the various SBIR
                                                              programs across the Federal agencies more uniform, learn what is
                                                              working best at particular agencies and apply those best practices
                                                              across the board. They include things such as making permanent
                                                              certain pilot programs that have helped these agencies improve
                                                              their administration of the programs or commercialization, pro-
                                                              viding more flexibility to small businesses in how they can use
                                                              their technical and business assistance funds, encouraging the use
                                                              of short form applications for the first round of review so that com-
                                                              panies do not waste their time on 60-page applications if it turns
                                                              out their technology is not a good fit.
                                                                 And then one thing I wish that we could sort of get a message
                                                              across to the Department of Energy in particular to learn from
                                                              some of the other agencies is they have sort of in recent years
                                                              adopted a practice of allocating their SBIR funds, which is a 3.65
                                                              percent set-aside of their extra grant funds according to the specific
                                                              subaccounts of the agency. And we do not think that that is the
                                                              best way to do it. Just sort of allocating it across the broader ac-
                                                              counts such as Office of Science, Energy Efficiency, Renewable En-
                                                              ergy, and Fossil Energy would be better because right now the way
                                                              they are doing it, for some of the smaller accounts they can maybe
                                                              cobble together one SBIR award a year. And it also kind of hinders




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                                                              their flexibility to call for more open solicitations for novel tech-
                                                              nology ideas that might not be envisioned.
                                                                 So those are just a handful of the recommendations. Our letter
                                                              details these in further depth but I think, in sort, basically, on both
                                                              the customer side and the provider side we really need to think
                                                              about what small businesses need and make sure that the federal
                                                              government is supporting them.
                                                                 Mr. MEUSER. That is great.
                                                                 I have limited time. I just want to ask Mr. Glenn, is there some-
                                                              thing you are hearing today or do you have any further comments
                                                              where we can advocate for you or perhaps resources discussed dur-
                                                              ing this hearing would be of use to a business like yours?
                                                                 Mr. GLENN. Sure. Thank you for inquiring and checking with
                                                              me on that. As a small business owner, the fear for us is uncer-
                                                              tainty. And we look for certainty practically in every step of the
                                                              way where we can make the best decisions for our business. And
                                                              you know, as an entrepreneur you have to be a certain amount of
                                                              a risk taker. So with uncertainty, that just increases risk. You
                                                              know, but the largest thing and some of the largest concerns which
                                                              I have touched on in my testimony is what is the chances of addi-
                                                              tional tax burdens? Those are things that quite frankly will keep
                                                              me up at night. It is, how does that impact my cashflow? How does
                                                              that impact my balance sheet? If it does, how do I make the adjust-
                                                              ments? All of these series of events are what goes through a small
                                                              business owner’s mind as far as how do I adjust? You have to con-
                                                              stantly be aware of what are your challenges of the day, so to
                                                              speak? What are the long-term challenges? What are the imme-
                                                              diate challenges? And those are the things that we look for to
                                                              thrive with our business and to create more jobs and to become
                                                              profitable and create wealth is, you know, taking out some of the
                                                              uncertainty that could originate from the government. And you
                                                              know, quite frankly, let capitalism work to its fullest extent and
                                                              without interference. And there is a long history of that and a long
                                                              history of success with that. And so those are the things that a
                                                              small business owner, that is some of their greatest concerns is
                                                              what I would add.
                                                                 Mr. MEUSER. Thank you very much. I appreciate your testi-
                                                              mony.
                                                                 I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                 Chairman PHILLIPS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                 And with that, we will conclude our questioning.
                                                                 And I want to thank all of our witnesses. Heartfelt gratitude for
                                                              joining us today. Your testimony has shed light on the economic
                                                              challenges that you are all facing, that the country is. But also the
                                                              opportunities that lie ahead for us.
                                                                 You know, climate change is real. We are seeing it right in front
                                                              of our eyes, whether it is Mr. Glenn having to close his business
                                                              for a week because of winter storms in Texas; whether it is boats
                                                              sitting on lakebeds in Minnesota or a lack of snow in Northern
                                                              Minnesota for snowmobilers, not to mention the horrors we are see-
                                                              ing in the West right now as fires rage. It is real. The question is,
                                                              are we going to do something about it? Are we just going to hope
                                                              that businesses survive? I would argue, and I believe my colleagues
                                                              agree, and the point of today’s hearing was to elevate the need to




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                                                              provide investment resources to small business to become more re-
                                                              silient. That is what this hearing is all about, how to protect small
                                                              businesses.
                                                                 COVID-19 has only highlighted that even the most sophisticated,
                                                              well-staffed, well-resourced and profitable companies are still ter-
                                                              ribly vulnerable to unanticipated shocks. We have learned that
                                                              there has to be greater government capacity to anticipate and then
                                                              deal with major public crises. And for members of this Committee,
                                                              I believe that means working to ensure that small businesses have
                                                              support from the SBA and other programs as they experience the
                                                              consequences of climate change. The crisis poses challenges, of
                                                              course, for American small businesses and the SBA programs have
                                                              to anticipate those and reflect that reality.
                                                                 On this Committee, many of us like to say there is no partisan-
                                                              ship when it comes to small businesses, and I think the same
                                                              should go for the protection of our planet. Not just the planet, mind
                                                              you. This is about our children and our grandchildren. Earth will
                                                              survive. Earth will survive. The question is, will our children sur-
                                                              vive? Will humanity survive these consequences. The question is
                                                              not whether they are manmade or not. The question is how are we
                                                              going to accommodate it, anticipate it, and address it, and that
                                                              should be our concern. And small businesses as the backbone of our
                                                              entire economy, have to be prepared for these realities.
                                                                 So I look forward to working with my colleagues on both sides
                                                              of the aisle as we seek to ensure that small firms benefit from the
                                                              creation of a more sustainable and resilient economy and ulti-
                                                              mately, a more livable planet for our descendants.
                                                                 I would ask for unanimous consent that members have 5 legisla-
                                                              tive days to submit statements and supporting materials for the
                                                              record.
                                                                 And without objection, so ordered.
                                                                 And if there is no further business to come before the Committee,
                                                              we are now adjourned. And I thank you all.
                                                                 [Whereupon, at 11:20 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]




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                                                                                                   APPENDIX




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