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Restoring the SBA: Putting Main Street America First (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, March 11, 2025)

Summary

The printed record of a hearing before the Subcommittee on Oversight, Investigations, and Regulations of the House Committee on Small Business, Small Business Committee Document Number 119–005, titled Restoring the SBA: Putting Main Street America First, held March 11, 2025 in the 119th Congress. The subcommittee met at 10:02 a.m. in Room 2360 of the Rayburn House Office Building. The contents list opening statements by Hon. Mark Alford and Hon. Derek Tran. The three witnesses are Theodore J. Gutierrez of the Missouri Small Business Development Center, Alfredo Ortiz of Job Creators Network and Richard Trent of Main Street Alliance. Additional material for the record includes H.R. 2027, the Returning SBA to Main Street Act, an ABC letter and a DCUC letter.

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“Restoring the SBA: Putting Main Street America First (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, March 11, 2025).” Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/restoring-the-sba-putting-main-street-america-first-house-small-busine-af5d2f52f8/, SHA-256 4b834d4152ba49fa828960ca3c16fcb5717492bb66e2503e8cc1379a2981e00d.

Full text

                                                                         RESTORING THE SBA: PUTTING MAIN STREET
                                                                                     AMERICA FIRST


                                                                                                       HEARING
                                                                                                              BEFORE THE


                                                                          SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT,
                                                                        INVESTIGATIONS, AND REGULATIONS
                                                                                                                 OF THE


                                                                            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                                                                   UNITED STATES
                                                                             HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
                                                                                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
                                                                                                           FIRST SESSION


                                                                                                           HEARING HELD
                                                                                                           MARCH 11, 2025




                                                                                    Small Business Committee Document Number 119–005
                                                                                      Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov



                                                                                               U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                                                                         59–421                            WASHINGTON : 2025




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                                                                                         HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                                                                              ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                                                                                                   PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                                                                                                   DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                                                                                                    BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                                                                                                      JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                                                                                                    MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                                                                                                    NICK LALOTA, New York
                                                                                                   BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
                                                                                                     TONY WIED, Wisconsin
                                                                                                ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
                                                                                                      BRIAN JACK, Georgia
                                                                                                   TROY DOWNING, Montana
                                                                                         KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
                                                                                                    DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
                                                                                          NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                                                                                                MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                                                                                                 HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                                                                                                LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
                                                                                                    GIL CISNEROS, California
                                                                                                 KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
                                                                                                 GEORGE LATIMER, New York
                                                                                                     DEREK TRAN, California
                                                                                                  LATEEFAH SIMON, California
                                                                                                JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
                                                                                                  HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
                                                                                             MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire

                                                                                                LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
                                                                                                 MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director




                                                                                                                      (II)




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                                                                                                                   CONTENTS
                                                                                                                OPENING STATEMENTS
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Page
                                                                   Hon. Mark Alford .....................................................................................................            1
                                                                   Hon. Derek Tran ......................................................................................................            3

                                                                                                                           WITNESSES
                                                                   Mr. Theodore J. Gutierrez, State Director, Missouri Small Business Develop-
                                                                    ment Center (SBDC), Columbia, MO .................................................................                               8
                                                                   Mr. Alfredo Ortiz, Chief Executive Officer, Job Creators Network, Sugar
                                                                    Land, TX ...............................................................................................................        10
                                                                   Mr. Richard Trent, Executive Director, Main Street Alliance, North Bethesda,
                                                                    MD .........................................................................................................................    11

                                                                                                                            APPENDIX
                                                                   Prepared Statements:
                                                                       Mr. Theodore J. Gutierrez, State Director, Missouri Small Business De-
                                                                         velopment Center (SBDC), Columbia, MO .................................................                                    29
                                                                       Mr. Alfredo Ortiz, Chief Executive Officer, Job Creators Network, Sugar
                                                                         Land, TX ........................................................................................................          33
                                                                       Mr. Richard Trent, Executive Director, Main Street Alliance, North Be-
                                                                         thesda, MD ....................................................................................................            35
                                                                   Questions for the Record:
                                                                       None.
                                                                   Answers for the Record:
                                                                       None.
                                                                   Additional Material for the Record:
                                                                       H.R. 2027 - Returning SBA to Main Street Act .............................................                                   38
                                                                       ABC Letter ........................................................................................................          49
                                                                       DCUC Letter .....................................................................................................            51




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                                                                   RESTORING THE SBA: PUTTING MAIN STREET
                                                                               AMERICA FIRST

                                                                                                 TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2025

                                                                                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                                                                                         COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
                                                                                               SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT,
                                                                                              INVESTIGATIONS, AND REGULATIONS,
                                                                                                                     Washington, DC.
                                                                      The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:02 a.m., in Room
                                                                   2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mark Alford [chairman
                                                                   of the Subcommittee] presiding.
                                                                      Present: Representatives Alford, Van Duyne, Finstad, Downing,
                                                                   Tran, Cisneros, McIver, Simon, and Goodlander.
                                                                      Also Present: Representatives Williams, Velázquez, Gutierrez,
                                                                   Ortiz, Trent, and Wied.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Good morning, everyone. Before we get
                                                                   started, I want to recognize Congressman Brad Finstad from the
                                                                   great state of Minnesota to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance and
                                                                   a prayer.
                                                                      Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you. Please bow your heads. Dear Father,
                                                                   we thank you for (off mic)
                                                                      I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
                                                                   And to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, in-
                                                                   divisible, with liberty and justice for all.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Good morning, everyone. I now call the
                                                                   committee on Oversight, Investigations, and Regulation to order.
                                                                   Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the
                                                                   committee at any time.
                                                                      I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
                                                                      Welcome to today’s hearing which will focus on restoring the
                                                                   SBA to its original mission of serving Main Street America. First,
                                                                   I want to thank our witnesses, all three of you, for joining us today
                                                                   on your own time and your own dime. I really appreciate you being
                                                                   here. I hope this hearing will continue to be a productive dialogue
                                                                   on how we can ensure that the Small Business Administration re-
                                                                   turns to its mission to assist small businesses while increasing effi-
                                                                   ciency at the agency.
                                                                      Owning your own business is one of the most rewarding careers
                                                                   in our great nation. The SBA has dedicated resources to aid job
                                                                   creators who find themselves having a tough time navigating their
                                                                   entrepreneurial journey. Through the public private partnership
                                                                   with the Small Business Development Center, small businesses at
                                                                   all stages can receive critical counseling and training. SBDCs have
                                                                   many solutions to support main street, from preparing loan appli-
                                                                                                                      (1)




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                                                                   cations to workforce development. Since we spend taxpayer dollars
                                                                   providing these resources to entrepreneurs, we must ensure that
                                                                   these programs operate effectively and efficiently. Importantly,
                                                                   these programs must be consistent with the intent and mission of
                                                                   the SBA.
                                                                      Unfortunately, during the Biden-Harris administration, the SBA
                                                                   strayed from its core mission and prioritized politics and misguided
                                                                   policies over American small businesses. An overall theme was the
                                                                   SBA’s flawed operation that limited the agency’s day-to-day work.
                                                                   Notably, the agency’s work-from-home policy for SBA staff hin-
                                                                   dered its ability to execute its mission up until a few weeks ago
                                                                   thanks to President Trump and our new administrator.
                                                                      Biden’s SBA falsely claimed that it could operate remotely. But
                                                                   the reality was that the SBA was a ghost town. We saw it first-
                                                                   hand. When Members of this committee visited the SBA head-
                                                                   quarters, we found rows of empty desks, calendars that had not
                                                                   been moved since 2020. And this was when they knew we were
                                                                   coming. The Biden SBA repeatedly failed to deliver for America
                                                                   small businesses while also failing to conduct sufficient oversight
                                                                   of its programs. Instead, they focus on turning the agency into a
                                                                   voter registration arm of the Biden-Harris reelection efforts.
                                                                      It is critical that we conduct the necessary oversight over the
                                                                   SBA’s operations, especially for political initiatives like voter reg-
                                                                   istration that were well outside the scope of the agency’s core mis-
                                                                   sion, providing support to America’s small businesses.
                                                                      As I just mentioned, thanks to President Trump’s steps to ad-
                                                                   dress these egregious failures and more are being taken with the
                                                                   new SBA Administrator, Kelly Loeffler, during this hearing we will
                                                                   dive into what went wrong. However, it is equally vital to focus on
                                                                   creating positive change. These efforts should begin with the un-
                                                                   tapped potential of the SBA Office of Advocacy, better known as
                                                                   just Advocacy. The Office of Advocacy is supposed to serve as the
                                                                   independent voice for small businesses within the federal govern-
                                                                   ment, monitoring and ensuring compliance with the Regulatory Re-
                                                                   flexibility Act and helping policymakers better understand issues
                                                                   confronting small business owners.
                                                                      Over the years, though, Advocacy has faced several challenges in
                                                                   advocating for small businesses. Of top concern, the Biden adminis-
                                                                   tration has refused to even nominate an individual for the position
                                                                   of chief counsel of the Office of Advocacy, leaving the top small
                                                                   business advocate position vacant. Last Congress, the committee
                                                                   sent letters to then President Biden calling on him to fill the posi-
                                                                   tion. But instead, reckless rulemaking followed. While small busi-
                                                                   nesses were forced to endure Biden’s unprecedented onslaught of
                                                                   regulations, his administration shamefully did not prioritize ap-
                                                                   pointing an independent voice for small businesses. These failures
                                                                   have shown just how out of touch the SBA had become.
                                                                      It is time. It is time to return the SBA to its core mission and
                                                                   finally meet the needs of Main Street America. And that is why I
                                                                   am proud to announce that I have introduced the Returning SBA
                                                                   to Main Street Act in the U.S. House. The Returning SBA to Main
                                                                   Street Act was first introduced in the Senate by the Committee on
                                                                   Small Business and Entrepreneurship Chair, Senator Ernst. I am
                                                                   honored to introduce the House Companion Bill to ensure that the




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                                                                   SBA workforce is no longer centered around D.C. and will meet the
                                                                   needs of small businesses where they are, especially in rural com-
                                                                   munities in my district in Missouri’s 4th district.
                                                                      Today our office sent a letter to Administrator Loeffler request-
                                                                   ing that the SBA’s Kansas City Regional Office be moved to Colum-
                                                                   bia, Missouri, in accordance with her initiative to move SBA offices
                                                                   out of sanctuary cities. While Kansas City’s policies are only sanc-
                                                                   tuary city adjacent, Columbia offers a far superior alternative
                                                                   thanks to its closer proximity to the University of Missouri, Mis-
                                                                   souri’s Small Business Development Center, and the rural commu-
                                                                   nities that reflect the heart of America.
                                                                      Again, I want to thank the witnesses for being here today to tes-
                                                                   tify.
                                                                      And with that, I now recognize my friend and the distinguished
                                                                   Ranking Member from the great state of California, Mr. Tran, for
                                                                   his opening remarks.
                                                                      Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Chair Alford, and I am pleased to have
                                                                   the opportunity to serve as the Ranking Member of this important
                                                                   subcommittee. I look forward to working with you throughout this
                                                                   Congress to conduct robust oversight of the Small Business Admin-
                                                                   istration. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I hope
                                                                   to hear more today on how we can support our small businesses’
                                                                   access the tools they need to launch and grow successful busi-
                                                                   nesses.
                                                                      Let me begin by mentioning that under the Biden-Harris admin-
                                                                   istration, more than 21 million business applications were filed.
                                                                   The largest number in a single presidential term in the history of
                                                                   our nation. Women, minorities and immigrant entrepreneurs
                                                                   played a leading role in this historic surge. Business ownership
                                                                   doubled for black households while Latino and Asian American
                                                                   household reached a 30 year high. More Americans than ever were
                                                                   able to pursue the American Dream and that is a milestone that
                                                                   we should be celebrating today.
                                                                      We should also be focusing on the achievement of the previous
                                                                   administration. In fiscal year 2024, SBA approved more than
                                                                   76,000 loans in the 7A and 504 programs providing 37.7 billion to
                                                                   small businesses. The Microloan program, which provides loans up
                                                                   to $50,000, approved 94 million in new small dollar loans, meaning
                                                                   the smallest of the small businesses were able to access capital
                                                                   which can be so hard to come by and can be a barrier for growth.
                                                                   The resource partners offered free and low-cost counseling to hun-
                                                                   dreds of thousands of entrepreneurs to help them tackle the chal-
                                                                   lenges they face every day. And in part to SBA’s efforts, federal
                                                                   agencies awarded 28.4 percent of federal contracting dollars total-
                                                                   ing $178.6 billion to small businesses.
                                                                      The facts speak for themselves. Despite what you may hear
                                                                   today, SBA is committed to its mission of helping small businesses.
                                                                   That has been true under each administration, in large part be-
                                                                   cause of dedicated civil servants. Their work should be applauded,
                                                                   not demonized. SBA employees workday in and day—work day and
                                                                   night under the first Trump administration and through the Biden
                                                                   administration to implement emergency COVID programs that
                                                                   meant the very survival of millions of small businesses and non-
                                                                   profits in this country. I stand ready to work with everyone here




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                                                                   to ensure the integrity of programs and efficient government. But
                                                                   it cannot come at the expense of SBA staff working diligently to
                                                                   serve small employers.
                                                                      Turning to the environment today, we are in the midst of trou-
                                                                   bling and chaotic times. And in the roughly 2 short months of the
                                                                   Trump administration, we have lurched from one crisis to another.
                                                                   Late in the night on January 24th, President Trump fired SBA’s
                                                                   Inspector General Mike Ware without the 30-day advance notice to
                                                                   Congress or a reason as required by law. Mr. Ware testified before
                                                                   our committee multiple times about the potential fraud and the
                                                                   pandemic relief programs and was praised by Members on both
                                                                   sides of the aisle for his work to investigate and recover fraudulent
                                                                   pandemic funds. Which I should note occurred mostly under the
                                                                   first Trump administration.
                                                                      A couple of days later, OMB released a memo requiring all agen-
                                                                   cies to freeze federal funding, which led to widespread confusion for
                                                                   small businesses, lenders, resource partners and contractors. Small
                                                                   businesses rely heavily on SBA’s counseling, contracting and access
                                                                   to capital programs, and a disruption in funding, even for a short
                                                                   period of time, could impact the viability, cash flow and services of
                                                                   small businesses. While the memo was supposedly rescinded the
                                                                   next day, the White House press secretary said the freeze remained
                                                                   in full force and effect. Needless to say, these actions caused undue
                                                                   confusion, chaos and uncertainty.
                                                                      I, along with the Ranking Member, Rep. Nydia Velázquez, sent
                                                                   an oversight letter to the SBA expressing our concern over the ad-
                                                                   ministration’s action to freeze federal funding and to obtain a list
                                                                   of any and all programs that may have been affected. Then on Feb-
                                                                   ruary 3rd, we started hearing reports that Elon Musk and his
                                                                   DOGE team infiltrated the SBA, gaining access to all of SBA sys-
                                                                   tems, including human resources, contract and payment system.
                                                                   This breach has widespread implications for America’s 35 million
                                                                   small businesses, potentially endangering their private informa-
                                                                   tion. Despite sending two letters to the SBA, along with all the
                                                                   Democratic Members of the committee, we have yet to receive a le-
                                                                   gitimate response to our questions about Elon Musk and DOGE
                                                                   team accessing the systems within SBA.
                                                                      On Friday, February 7th, hundreds of SBA employees received
                                                                   termination notices, leaving them and their supervisors scrambling
                                                                   for information. Then on Monday, February 10th, SBA officials said
                                                                   it was a mistake only to receive a termination notice again on
                                                                   Tuesday, February 11th, but this time the firings were for real and
                                                                   effective immediately. Not only was this incredibly confusing, but
                                                                   it was mean-spirited, cruel and made clear that no meaningful
                                                                   thought went into the decision. And now small firms and farmers
                                                                   all over the country are reeling from the back-and-forth nature of
                                                                   tariffs with Canada and Mexico. The uncertainty has left many
                                                                   struggling to keep up.
                                                                      We have seen this before in June 2018 when the Trump adminis-
                                                                   tration launched a trade war with the EU over steel. America’s
                                                                   small distilleries were hit by retaliatory tariffs and saw production
                                                                   costs rise. For example, Cedar Ridge Distillery in Iowa faced higher
                                                                   prices for the steel used in their aging barrels, which led to higher
                                                                   costs in production and forced them to end plans for expansion.




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                                                                   Even the U.S. Chamber of Commerce has raised the alarm bells of
                                                                   small businesses scrambling to adjust to the current trade war. For
                                                                   example, take Pluie Inc., a Texas-based company that makes dia-
                                                                   per changing tables. They are now forced to revisit their budget, al-
                                                                   locating more for tariffs while cutting back on marketing.
                                                                     American small business cannot stomach the chaos, confusion
                                                                   and uncertainty of a Trump administration and they deserve bet-
                                                                   ter. It is time to work together and conduct real and meaningful
                                                                   oversight into the administration and the effect it is having on
                                                                   small businesses.
                                                                     I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today. Thank you.
                                                                   And I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Tran. I now recognize the
                                                                   Chairman of the full committee from the great state of Texas,
                                                                   Chairman Roger Williams, for an opening statement. Chair?
                                                                     Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Chairman Alford, and I am pleased
                                                                   to announce the first hearing organized by the subcommittee on
                                                                   Oversight and Investigation Regulations focuses on restoring the
                                                                   SBA to its foundational mission of serving Main Street America.
                                                                   And I also want to thank you, all the witnesses, for being here
                                                                   today, too.
                                                                     Now, since the SBA’s founding 70 years ago, its mission state-
                                                                   ment has renamed—remained the same, and that is to aid, counsel,
                                                                   assist and protect the interests of small business concerns. Unfor-
                                                                   tunately, under President Biden, the SBA deviated from its core
                                                                   mission of helping America start, grow and build resilient busi-
                                                                   nesses. For example, instead of listening to the very real hardships
                                                                   experienced by main street, like access to capital, inflation and reg-
                                                                   ulatory burdens, in 2024, the SBA entered into a memo—or an
                                                                   MOU with the Michigan Department of State, which allowed the
                                                                   SBA to arrest her voters at its events in Michigan and with a link
                                                                   to the SBA’s website.
                                                                     Now, registering voters is undeniably irrelevant to the SBA’s
                                                                   mission, and it is unconscionable that political activities were
                                                                   prioritized over the voices of small business owners. And further,
                                                                   the SBA has been operating both duplicative and unauthorized pro-
                                                                   grams over the years. This is particularly troubling since the most
                                                                   important programs are performed on the ground where staffing
                                                                   and resources are already stretched very thin.
                                                                     And it has recently come to the attention of the committee that
                                                                   the SBA may have attempted to leverage the Small Business De-
                                                                   velopment Centers to carry out duties that aligned with the Biden-
                                                                   Harris misguided policies and political initiatives, pulling them
                                                                   away from the counseling and training programs that main street
                                                                   and small business owners need.
                                                                     Now, to echo subcommittee Chairman Alford and the work of
                                                                   this subcommittee at large, we must make sure that we are both
                                                                   doing right by the taxpayer and entrepreneurs that the SBH pro-
                                                                   grams are streamlined, effective and efficient. Alongside President
                                                                   Trump and Minister Loeffler, there is a committee—we as a com-
                                                                   mittee remain focused on putting main street first. And I am glad
                                                                   to see Representative Alford introduce the House companion to
                                                                   Chair Ernst’s Returning SBA to Main Street Act. The critical legis-
                                                                   lation will ensure that the needs of main street are met by relo-




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                                                                   cating more of the SBA workforce to main street. In other words,
                                                                   in retail business, take the product to the customer. Ensuring that
                                                                   all SBA programs are running effectively is essential to meeting
                                                                   the needs of small businesses. And the idea shared today will help
                                                                   the SBA’s future and right-size the agency.
                                                                      So with that being said, I look forward to today’s important con-
                                                                   versation. Want to thank all of you again, and I yield back.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
                                                                      It is now my honor to recognize the Ranking Member of the full
                                                                   committee from the great state of New York, Ranking Member
                                                                   Velázquez, for an opening statement.
                                                                      Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
                                                                   Mr. Tran. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. The
                                                                   purpose of today’s hearing is to restore the SBA and put Main
                                                                   Street America first. Well, we are going to have to sift through the
                                                                   rhetoric to find the facts.
                                                                      Let’s begin by talking about the small business boom. More than
                                                                   21 million small businesses were created during the Biden admin-
                                                                   istration. And women and minorities led the way, starting more
                                                                   businesses, providing for their families and creating economic
                                                                   growth in their communities. We should be building on the pre-
                                                                   vious administration efforts. Instead, this administration in 3 short
                                                                   months has opted to upend one policy after another and injecting
                                                                   chaos, confusion and uncertainty for small businesses.
                                                                      Let’s focus for a minute on the President’s on-again, off-again
                                                                   tariff war with Canada and Mexico. It is a whiplash for employers
                                                                   simply trying to run their business. The bottom line is consumer
                                                                   prices will surge. Even the U.S. Chamber of Commerce recognizes
                                                                   this and publishes a report entitled ‘‘Small Businesses Are Afraid.’’
                                                                   They are worried that the added cost of tariffs will adversely im-
                                                                   pact their ability to remain competitive and turn a profit. Small
                                                                   businesses need certainty, and instead, they must adjust to chaotic
                                                                   economic policies.
                                                                      Turning to the SBA, we have a tech billionaire rifling through
                                                                   SBA data and we cannot get a straight answer from the SBA as
                                                                   to what data has been accessed and why, or even why they need
                                                                   it. Democrats on this committee sent numerous letters that have
                                                                   gone unanswered. And while this letter has gone unanswered, the
                                                                   newly confirmed administrator wasted no time walking through
                                                                   the SBA, pointing out empty desks for a photo op on her policy to
                                                                   end teleworking. What was not mentioned was the mass termi-
                                                                   nation of hundreds of employee’s days before. In less than a week,
                                                                   hundreds of employees were fired, only to be told it was a mistake.
                                                                   And then they were fired again, effective immediately. We are still
                                                                   waiting for the agency to respond to requests detailing the impact
                                                                   and breadth of the termination so we can understand how it serves
                                                                   the SBA mission.
                                                                      And most concerning are the recent reports that employees of
                                                                   SBA Fraud Risk Management Board, which was created in 2022 to
                                                                   root out waste, fraud and abuse at the agency have been termi-
                                                                   nated. And that is in addition to the President firing the SBA IG.
                                                                      How could we have spent 2 years in this committee talking about
                                                                   curbing fraud in the pandemic programs and sit idly by while the
                                                                   Trump administration is firing the key people who can investigate,




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                                                                   prevent and recover fraudulent funds? And now, we are hearing,
                                                                   not being informed that the new administrator is closing down six
                                                                   regional offices in Democratic cities, not less, with no plans to relo-
                                                                   cate them. I can only assume that this must be part of the reorga-
                                                                   nization, an effort to RIF federal employees, all in the name of
                                                                   complying with immigration executive orders. I hope we get assur-
                                                                   ances this won’t hinder the agency’s mission to provide assistance
                                                                   to small employers in this city as well as others.
                                                                     And while we are speaking of the SBA mission, which is to assist
                                                                   small employers in accessing capital and entrepreneurial develop-
                                                                   ment, I am curious as to why Administrator Loeffler likes the idea
                                                                   of SBA taking over the student loan process. Who is going to take
                                                                   care of this business? Firing the workforce that works at SBA? And
                                                                   where are the resources when they are cutting its budget? How
                                                                   does this fit the agency’s mission? That is the real question. While
                                                                   I appreciate the witnesses that are testifying today, I am frustrated
                                                                   that we do not have the SBA Administrator here to speak directly
                                                                   to us. We must conduct real oversight of the SBA and bring in the
                                                                   agency heads to shed light into what is going on behind closed
                                                                   doors.
                                                                     Thank you. And I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Ranking Member. Appreciate
                                                                   that.
                                                                     I will now introduce our witnesses for today.
                                                                     Our first witness is Mr. Ted J. Gutierrez. Mr. Gutierrez is the
                                                                   State Director of the Missouri Small Business Development Center
                                                                   in Columbia, Missouri, in the 4th Congressional District. Mr.
                                                                   Gutierrez joined the Missouri Small Business Development Center
                                                                   in 2022, following years of experience at the Virgin Islands, St.
                                                                   Louis, and Southern Illinois University locations. Prior to that, Mr.
                                                                   Gutierrez worked as a banker at Mid Country Bank and a Man-
                                                                   aging Director of the Jackson County Mass Transit District in Illi-
                                                                   nois. Mr. Gutierrez currently serves on the National Board for
                                                                   America’s Small Business Development Center and as an Edu-
                                                                   cation Director for the University of Missouri’s Extension Business
                                                                   Development Program. Mr. Gutierrez holds a Master’s of Business
                                                                   Administration from the University of Redlands in Redlands, Cali-
                                                                   fornia, and a Bachelor of Science from the University of New Mex-
                                                                   ico in Albuquerque. Thank you for joining us today, sir. I am look-
                                                                   ing forward to today’s important conversation.
                                                                     Our next witness here is Mr. Alfredo Ortiz. Mr. Ortiz is the chief
                                                                   executive officer of the Job Creators Network in Atlanta, Georgia.
                                                                   Mr. Ortiz joined the Job Creators Network in 2014. Prior to that,
                                                                   he served as vice president of CSM Bakery Products Food Service
                                                                   Division and as a consultant for Boston Consulting Group in their
                                                                   Washington office. He is also worked in marketing, new product de-
                                                                   velopment, and corporate strategy for Georgia Pacific, Kraft and
                                                                   others. Mr. Ortiz is currently a Board Member for the Georgia
                                                                   Chamber of Commerce and an Advisory Board Member for Littler’s
                                                                   Workplace Policy Institute. He is also the co-host of the Main
                                                                   Street Matters podcast. Mr. Ortiz holds a Master of Business Ad-
                                                                   ministration from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and a
                                                                   Bachelor’s in Economics from Pomona College in Claremont, Cali-




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                                                                   fornia. Thank you, sir, for being here today. I look forward to hear-
                                                                   ing your testimony and having a great conversation.
                                                                     We appreciate all of you being here today. And before we recog-
                                                                   nize the witnesses, I want to remind them that their oral testimony
                                                                   is restricted to 5 minutes. And our Ranking Member will now in-
                                                                   troduce the witness for the minority.
                                                                     Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
                                                                     I am delighted to introduce Mr. Richard Trent, the executive di-
                                                                   rector of Main Street Alliance. Mr. Trent had a dynamic career
                                                                   prior to joining the Main Street Alliance. As the Executive Director
                                                                   of Friends of Anacostia Park, Mr. Trent oversaw one of the East
                                                                   Coast’s largest environmental restoration projects. Today, he is
                                                                   working every day to create a level playing field for main street
                                                                   small businesses. His work has helped uplift communities all
                                                                   across the country and, in turn, boost their local economies. I look
                                                                   forward to your testimony, which will reflect the voices of the mom-
                                                                   and-pop small businesses. Thank you for being here.
                                                                     Chairman ALFORD. Again, just for the witnesses, I want to re-
                                                                   mind you that you have 5 minutes for your opening remarks. You
                                                                   will see a red clock in front of you that is set to 5 minutes, and
                                                                   when your time is expired, we will gavel you out and go to the next
                                                                   witness remarks. So thank you.
                                                                     I now recognize Mr. Gutierrez for his 5-minute opening remarks.
                                                                   Sir?
                                                                   STATEMENTS OF THEODORE J. GUTIERREZ, STATE DIRECTOR,
                                                                    MISSOURI SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT CENTER (SBDC);
                                                                    ALFREDO ORTIZ, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, JOB CRE-
                                                                    ATORS NETWORK; AND RICHARD TRENT, EXECUTIVE DIREC-
                                                                    TOR, MAIN STREET ALLIANCE

                                                                          STATEMENT OF TED J. GUTIERREZ, STATE DIRECTOR,
                                                                          MISSOURI SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT CENTER
                                                                     Mr. GUTIERREZ. Good morning Chairman Alford, Ranking
                                                                   Member Tran, Members of the committee, thank you for inviting
                                                                   me to testify today.
                                                                     My name is Theodore (Ted) Gutierrez, and I am the state direc-
                                                                   tor for the Missouri Small Business Development Center hosted by
                                                                   the University of Missouri Extension. Our network is dedicated to
                                                                   supporting and advancing the success of Missouri’s entrepreneurs
                                                                   and small businesses.
                                                                     We are a proud part of the nationwide Small Business Develop-
                                                                   ment Center system of 63 networks with over 900 locations and
                                                                   over 3,000 professional counselors, advisors, specialists and support
                                                                   staff.
                                                                     For over 43 years SBDCs have been providing one-on-one coun-
                                                                   seling services to small business owners and aspiring entre-
                                                                   preneurs at no cost. During that time, our member networks have
                                                                   developed a wide variety of services tailored to meet the needs of
                                                                   Main Street America.
                                                                     Some of the subject matter we counsel on and train include cy-
                                                                   bersecurity, export assistance, disaster recovery and resiliency,
                                                                   manufacturing, marketing, sales, ecommerce, accounting, financial
                                                                   statement analysis, business strategy development, business plan,




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                                                                   basic credit practices, pre-business startup planning, existing busi-
                                                                   ness expansion, and of course exit strategy and succession plan-
                                                                   ning, and many more as dictated by our statute.
                                                                      SBDCs continue to evolve to meet the needs of America’s small
                                                                   businesses. We are tasked with providing almost every conceivable
                                                                   form of technical assistance to small businesses in our respective
                                                                   states. Each SBDC network is nationally accredited which distin-
                                                                   guishes us among available resources. Our networks leverage the
                                                                   accreditation to evaluate and update our services to meet the
                                                                   changing needs of our clients who drive our services. Our economic
                                                                   impacts and performance numbers are based on attributed verified
                                                                   input from our clients.
                                                                      By sheer volume, locations and economic impact, the SBDC pro-
                                                                   gram is the number one resource in the United States and its terri-
                                                                   tories providing technical assistance and training for entrepreneurs
                                                                   and small businesses. In FY ‘22-’23, Congressional funding or in-
                                                                   vestment for America’s SBDCs translated to $216.4 million in fed-
                                                                   eral revenues generated and $327.2 million in state revenues gen-
                                                                   erated. Every federal dollar received rendered $1.59 in federal tax
                                                                   revenue and $2.40 in state tax revenue. A new job is created every
                                                                   6.5 minutes. A new business is started every 33.3 minutes. Our cli-
                                                                   ents experience an average of 15 percent annual sales growth com-
                                                                   pared to the national average of 6.2 percent with $6.6 billion in
                                                                   sales. SBDC is providing 90 percent of SBA’s access to capital as-
                                                                   sistance. SBDCs served 92 percent of SBA’s technical assistance
                                                                   clients.
                                                                      Despite SBDC’s economic impact generation and ROI, here are a
                                                                   few challenges we face. Funding priorities versus demand for our
                                                                   services, both federal and local. Political agendas which lead to
                                                                   mission drift. Funding to bring on more staff with industry exper-
                                                                   tise. Funding for technology and implementation in ways to reach
                                                                   additional small businesses in need of help, especially in rural
                                                                   America. Funding to provide disaster planning, resiliency and re-
                                                                   covery.
                                                                      Here are a few challenges faced by Main Street America. Confu-
                                                                   sion of resources available. Uncertainty of economic climate, i.e.,
                                                                   high interest rates, taxes. Supply chain disruption. Increased costs
                                                                   of the workforce, minimum wage laws. Finding and hiring people
                                                                   who are reliable and want to work. And of course, disaster recovery
                                                                   efforts and strategies for long-term recovery. SBDCs are the first
                                                                   responders to a natural disaster or disaster and SBDCs are there
                                                                   during and after the disaster.
                                                                      So we ask how can the SBA be restored? Simply by putting Main
                                                                   Street America first. The SBA is responsible for dispersing the allo-
                                                                   cated Congressional funding and administration of our grant pro-
                                                                   gram. It is important to distinguish that the SBDC is not part of
                                                                   SBA nor are employees of SBA.
                                                                      Over the years, SBDCs have worked with SBA administrators
                                                                   from every administration. We do that because SBA is our partner,
                                                                   just as our host universities, states, banks and economic develop-
                                                                   ment groups. The SBA is ready for clarity of purpose and vision to
                                                                   serve entrepreneurs and small businesses. The SBA should remain
                                                                   an advocate for the millions of small businesses in our country not
                                                                   focused on political agendas. SBA has many fantastic tools and




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                                                                   partners. They need to use them appropriately and efficiently. To
                                                                   regain public trust in the SBA, it must focus on providing resources
                                                                   and collaborate with partner programs such as the SBDC so every
                                                                   entrepreneur can work towards achieving their dream and con-
                                                                   tribute to the overall well-being of our economy. Every entre-
                                                                   preneur from the wheat fields to the shops of Main Street America
                                                                   should have the same opportunity for success.
                                                                      This concludes my testimony. Once again, thank you Chairman
                                                                   Alford and the committee for allowing me to speak here today.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Great timing. Thank you.
                                                                      Let’s go to Mr. Ortiz for his 5-minute remarks. Sir?
                                                                   STATEMENT OF ALFREDO ORTIZ, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,
                                                                               THE JOB CREATORS NETWORK
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Good morning, Chairman Alford and distinguished
                                                                   Members of the Oversight, Investigations, and Regulations Sub-
                                                                   committee.
                                                                      Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the vital topic
                                                                   of restoring the U.S. Small Business Administration. My name is
                                                                   Alfredo Ortiz and I am the CEO of Job Creators Network and the
                                                                   nation’s largest conservative small business advocacy organization.
                                                                      It is no secret that small businesses have faced historic chal-
                                                                   lenges over the past few years. These include the COVID pandemic
                                                                   and the heavy-handed government response, as well as the weak
                                                                   economy characterized by high inflation and overregulation. The
                                                                   Biden administration implemented a nearly $2 trillion regulatory
                                                                   burden that disproportionately harmed small businesses. Now,
                                                                   more than ever, small businesses need an effective agency in Wash-
                                                                   ington looking out for them.
                                                                      Unfortunately, the Small Business Administration has let entre-
                                                                   preneurs down over the past few years. Under the Biden adminis-
                                                                   tration, it prioritized political activities such as voter registration
                                                                   and diversity, equity, and inclusion over the real concerns of small
                                                                   businesses.
                                                                      Ignoring repeated urging from Chairman Williams and the
                                                                   broader small business community, the Biden Administration never
                                                                   even nominated a chief counsel for Advocacy, leaving a key office
                                                                   unfilled that could have acted as the voice of Main Street during
                                                                   this difficult period.
                                                                      The SBA also did not adequately require its staff to return to
                                                                   work, resulting in an office vacancy of 90 percent by one estimate.
                                                                   No wonder American small businesses have lost faith in the SBA.
                                                                      That changes with the trusted and proven leadership of Adminis-
                                                                   trator Kelly Loeffler. The SBA now has the opportunity to restore
                                                                   its core mission of helping small businesses. That means ending
                                                                   the agency’s politicization and bureaucracy, requiring staff to re-
                                                                   turn to work and engaging in rigorous oversight and accountability.
                                                                      Under the Chief Counsel of Economist Casey Mulligan, who suc-
                                                                   cessfully led Trump’s Council of Economic Advisors in his first
                                                                   term, the SBA’s Office of Advocacy can finally get the leadership
                                                                   it needs to be small businesses’ independent voice within the fed-
                                                                   eral government.
                                                                      The Office of Advocacy plays an important role in ensuring com-
                                                                   pliance with the Regulatory Flexibility Act, which the previous ad-




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                                                                   ministration routinely ignored to the detriment of small businesses.
                                                                   JCN is fighting to pass the Prove It Act, which fulfills the intent
                                                                   of the Regulatory Flexibility Act and gives small businesses a seat
                                                                   at the rulemaking table. But until then, a strong Office of Advocacy
                                                                   can reduce red tape and stand up for the small businesses in
                                                                   Washington.
                                                                      Once restored, the SBA can take steps to do even more good for
                                                                   small businesses. At the top of this list is prioritizing training pro-
                                                                   grams to teach entrepreneurs the skills they need to survive and
                                                                   thrive. Teaching small businesses how to fish so they can be suc-
                                                                   cessful for the long-term.
                                                                      The SBA should harmonize existing private sector small business
                                                                   efforts by the likes of Goldman Sachs and American Express in a
                                                                   public-private partnership small business training program. This
                                                                   program will teach entrepreneurs the basics of succeeding in to-
                                                                   day’s economy, including building a convincing business plan, iden-
                                                                   tifying suppliers and selling online.
                                                                      These efforts can significantly reduce the first-year small busi-
                                                                   ness failure rate, which currently stands at about 20 percent. De-
                                                                   creasing this failure rate to around 10 percent, let’s say, would re-
                                                                   sult in millions of more small businesses and millions of jobs over
                                                                   the years, significantly strengthening the American economy.
                                                                      A key component in this more effective SBA is heeding Chairman
                                                                   Alford’s recommendation to move personnel to regional offices clos-
                                                                   er to the small businesses they serve. It is impossible for the Wash-
                                                                   ington SBA to have its pulse on the needs of Main Street in com-
                                                                   munities from coast to coast. SBA loan making should also be con-
                                                                   ducted by third-party community banks with this lending expertise
                                                                   and community relationships.
                                                                      Under the leadership of Administration Leffler and Chief Coun-
                                                                   sel Mulligan as well as the oversight of this committee, the SBA
                                                                   can be restored and reinvented into the agency that the American
                                                                   small businesses want and need. Thank you very much for your
                                                                   time, and I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, sir.
                                                                      I now recognize Mr. Trent for his 5-minute opening remarks.
                                                                        STATEMENT OF RICHARD TRENT, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
                                                                                     MAIN STREET ALLIANCE
                                                                     Mr. TRENT. Chairman Alford and Ranking Member Tran, thank
                                                                   you for the opportunity to testify today.
                                                                     I am Richard Trent, the executive director of Main Street Alli-
                                                                   ance, representing over 30,000 small business owners nationwide.
                                                                   Our members span industries, but they share a fundamental need;
                                                                   a stable, predictable economy that allows them to plan, invest and
                                                                   grow. Unfortunately, that stability is being undermined not by
                                                                   market forces alone, but by reckless decision making that injects
                                                                   uncertainty into the economy and disrupts small businesses ability
                                                                   to operate.
                                                                     While some argue that regulations are the biggest burden on
                                                                   small businesses, our members tell us otherwise. Their greatest
                                                                   concerns aren’t red tape. Their instability at key agencies, policy
                                                                   reversals, and economic disruptions that shake their ability to plan
                                                                   for the future.




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                                                                     Today, I want to focus on three urgent issues that are fueling un-
                                                                   certainty and putting small business survival at risk.
                                                                     First, I will just say that SBA instability is hurting our entre-
                                                                   preneurs. The Small Business Administration is a lifeline for 35
                                                                   million small businesses. Yet recent mass firings, sudden program
                                                                   changes and bureaucratic delays have thrown thousands of entre-
                                                                   preneurs into limbo.
                                                                     Patrick DePula, owner of Salvatore’s Tomato Pies in Madison,
                                                                   Wisconsin, is actively repaying an economic injury disaster loan
                                                                   that kept his doors open during COVID. If the U.S. enters a down-
                                                                   turn, the SBA’s ability to offer hardship waivers will be critical.
                                                                   But staffing cuts raise serious concerns about whether those safe-
                                                                   guards will still exist.
                                                                     Shannon Burns, an entrepreneur and consultant in Alexandria,
                                                                   Minnesota, helps new small businesses craft business plans. With
                                                                   20 million new businesses launched since 2020, SBA’s resources
                                                                   are needed more than ever. Yet reduced staffing will limit access
                                                                   to these vital services.
                                                                     Molly Moon Neitzel, who testified here a few weeks ago, owner
                                                                   of Molly Moon’s Ice Cream in Seattle, Washington, was expanding
                                                                   her business when she learned of leadership changes and staffing
                                                                   cuts at the SBA. She had contracts signed and investments made,
                                                                   and any delay in finalizing her loan would have made that dev-
                                                                   astating for her.
                                                                     Decentralization must be strategic and planned, not weaponized
                                                                   in ways that create chaos for businesses. All of this is happening
                                                                   against a backdrop of inflationary pressures and market uncer-
                                                                   tainty. The trade war escalations and erratic tariff policies are al-
                                                                   ready impacting small businesses. 2 weeks ago, a Dodge Ram truck
                                                                   cost $80,000. Now it is $100,000. If that is what is happening to
                                                                   trucks, imagine the impact on restaurants, grocery stores and re-
                                                                   tailers that rely on imports. Ballooning deficits and corporate tax
                                                                   loopholes put upward pressure on interest rates.
                                                                     Second, it is important to note that federal funding freezes and
                                                                   data breaches are direct attacks on small business stability. When
                                                                   federal funding is frozen or misused, the first to feel the impact are
                                                                   small business owners who rely on these funds to keep employees
                                                                   on payroll and communities thriving.
                                                                     A tech entrepreneur in Utah lost multiple contracts when the
                                                                   freeze stalled nonprofit sales, disrupting a revenue pipeline. A Wis-
                                                                   consin childcare provider feared delays in state block grant funding
                                                                   would leave her unable to pay staff. And a researcher in Oak
                                                                   Ridge, Tennessee, had her federally funded projects suspended
                                                                   overnight, leaving her uncertain about her income and career.
                                                                     These aren’t abstract concerns. They are real businesses, real
                                                                   jobs, and real consequences. And when federal funds stop flowing,
                                                                   they don’t just delay government projects, they slow down entire
                                                                   economies.
                                                                     And beyond funding freezes, the DOGE seizures of sensitive IRS
                                                                   data is an existential threat. One of the world’s richest men now
                                                                   has access to bank statements, tax records and competitive finan-
                                                                   cial data of millions of businesses, including his own competitors.
                                                                   This is not draining the swamp; it is stocking it with more croco-
                                                                   diles. No CEO in America should have access to that kind of intel-




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                                                                   ligence, which destroys fair competition and erodes trust in govern-
                                                                   ment institutions.
                                                                      The third thing I will bring up is just that SBA office relocations
                                                                   and the Ernst Bill will hurt local economies. We have seen what
                                                                   happens when abrupt agency relocations gut institutional knowl-
                                                                   edge and destabilize communities. In 2019, the USDA moved two
                                                                   research agencies from D.C. to Kansas, and 75 percent of employ-
                                                                   ees resigned; stalling grants, research and hurting local businesses
                                                                   that relied on federal contracts.
                                                                      Now the Administrator’s memo mandates that SBA regional of-
                                                                   fices relocate from sanctuary cities, turning thriving small business
                                                                   hubs like Boston, Atlanta, Denver and Seattle into collateral dam-
                                                                   age for political posturing.
                                                                      I urge this committee to focus on practical, bipartisan solutions
                                                                   in light of the current economic uncertainty. Fully staff the SBA so
                                                                   it can meet the needs of entrepreneurs. Unfreeze critical funding
                                                                   that small businesses rely on. Block corporate access to sensitive
                                                                   financial data to preserve fair competition. And reject policies that
                                                                   inject instability into the economy and instead strengthen Main
                                                                   Street’s ability to compete.
                                                                      Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Trent. Well done.
                                                                      We now move to the Member questions. Under the 5-minute rule,
                                                                   I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
                                                                      Mr. Gutierrez, this morning I was proud to introduce the Return-
                                                                   ing SBA to Main Street Act. A companion bill to Chairwoman
                                                                   Ernst’s bill in the U.S. Senate. Mr. Gutierrez, over the past four
                                                                   years you have had firsthand experience working to fill the gap,
                                                                   somewhat big gap, left by a political SBA. Can you speak to us
                                                                   about how an SBA that is actually focused on Main Street could
                                                                   actually help small businesses?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you for the question, Congressman.
                                                                      You know, having SBA focus on what the mission and values of
                                                                   SBA should be on supporting small businesses is crucial. I know
                                                                   that several SBA field offices are short on staff. I know that many
                                                                   of them were not necessarily available to help as soon as help was
                                                                   needed. Therefore, we were able to fill the gap, along with some
                                                                   other resource partners as well.
                                                                      But SBA essentially just needs to focus on what it is they re
                                                                   doing and serving the small businesses, relying on its partners to
                                                                   work and to help on the front lines. Having SBA in the field would
                                                                   be a tremendous asset to small businesses, particularly in, you
                                                                   know, throughout the—throughout the Midwest, of course, working
                                                                   with the community bankers to having those subject matter ex-
                                                                   perts in the field would be amazing.
                                                                      Over the past few years, we have had one SBA representative in
                                                                   the field of Missouri down in Springfield, and the others were lo-
                                                                   cated in both St. Louis and Kansas City. So that is simply just not
                                                                   enough assistance from SBA throughout the state. And of course,
                                                                   anytime that assistance was needed, they typically referred them
                                                                   out to the partners such as SBDCs, the Women’s Business Centers,
                                                                   the Veterans Business Outreach Centers and SCORE as well.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. So what would it mean if we ended up mov-
                                                                   ing the Kansas City SBA office to Columbia?




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                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Well, Columbia will be very excited to have
                                                                   SBA presence there again. I believe that during COVID, the SBA
                                                                   office was removed at that time. And so, just having that local
                                                                   presence, that local subject matter, would do wonders because it
                                                                   will mean more availability to community bankers. Being central
                                                                   to the state would be more access throughout the state within a 5-
                                                                   or 6-hour drive anywhere across the state. And it would just serve
                                                                   as a signal that SBA is here and ready to help serve in the commu-
                                                                   nities.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Mr. Ortiz, SBA Administrator Loeffler has
                                                                   echoed the President’s return to office mandate. SBA staff are now
                                                                   required to be in the office 5 days a week. While this is a great
                                                                   start, you have further recommended that funding regional initia-
                                                                   tives like entrepreneur centers would be a more efficient use of tax-
                                                                   payer dollars. Please explain your reasoning for that recommenda-
                                                                   tion, sir.
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Thank you, Chairman Alford, for the question.
                                                                      Having education and innovation centers, I think, regionally clos-
                                                                   er to where there are small business owners are, would be ex-
                                                                   tremely, I think, well received by our small business owners. I
                                                                   doubt that there are too many small business entrepreneurs out
                                                                   there in, let’s say, Des Moines, Iowa, that decide, hey, I want to
                                                                   start my own small business. Let me get on a plane, fly up to D.C.,
                                                                   and enter the halls of SBA to help—help me do that. They need
                                                                   them there. They need them where they are, where the ideas are.
                                                                   We need to bring those resources to the people. Where the people
                                                                   are, not here in D.C.
                                                                      One of the recommendations I had made is let’s just close down
                                                                   the D.C. offices. I don’t see why we would need that. I think we
                                                                   need those resources out in the fields. We need support for folks
                                                                   like Mr. Gutierrez here. And we need to be able to support our
                                                                   small business owners where they are, which is in the fields be-
                                                                   cause they are not in D.C. And so, I think having the opportunity
                                                                   to do that, I think, would make the 1.4 billion, roughly, that is allo-
                                                                   cated for the department much more effective and more efficiently.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, sir.
                                                                      Mr. Gutierrez, back to you. Though the COVID-19 pandemic was
                                                                   declared over in ’23, Community Navigators programs continue
                                                                   well into 2025. In fact, that program’s set to sunset 9 months from
                                                                   now. Some people call it walking-around money for Biden-preferred
                                                                   organizations. It seems that Community Navigators has a reputa-
                                                                   tion for not being very efficient. Can you walk us through how the
                                                                   Community Navigators program duplicated efforts already done by
                                                                   SBDCs?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. So my understanding with the Community
                                                                   Navigators program is that each state was allocated a certain
                                                                   amount of funding and it was granted towards a certain NGO or
                                                                   nonprofit. And to be quite honest with you, the SBDCs in several
                                                                   states actually hosted the Navigators program. In the state of Mis-
                                                                   souri, we did not. We were actually never contacted by the Naviga-
                                                                   tors program. I cannot speak to any type of results, or any type of
                                                                   information produced by the Navigators program other than we
                                                                   knew they were there somewhere in Missouri, and I don’t even
                                                                   know if they are staffed anymore. So as far as duplication of ef-




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                                                                   forts, we were doing that all along for 43 years. We will be doing
                                                                   it for another 43 years.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you. I now recognize the Ranking
                                                                   Member for 5 minutes of questions.
                                                                      Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In less than a week, be-
                                                                   tween 400 to 700 SBA employees were terminated with notice, then
                                                                   informed the terminations were a mistake, and then fired effec-
                                                                   tively immediately, effective immediately. Many of these employees
                                                                   were veterans, injured or disabled workers, and workers with years
                                                                   of service. Mr. Trent, can you please share how these terminations
                                                                   will affect small businesses who rely on these employees for loans,
                                                                   disaster aid, and small business assistance?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. Well, I can say that well over half of our 30,000-
                                                                   plus membership have applied for funding through the SBA and a
                                                                   significant portion actually rely on different loan products or tech-
                                                                   nical assistance. Over the last couple years, the SBA has offered,
                                                                   honestly, a real bespoke service to small business owners. We have
                                                                   got members in our cohort who speak directly to regional officers,
                                                                   loan officers that help them drive business sustainability. So the
                                                                   mass firing of between 400 and 700 people will inevitably have a
                                                                   direct impact on entrepreneurs’ ability to successfully navigate the
                                                                   challenges that present themselves every single day as a small
                                                                   business owner.
                                                                      Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Trent. Last Thursday, Administrator
                                                                   Loeffler announced that she is relocating six regional SBA offices
                                                                   away from sanctuary cities. Can you describe the effect the closure
                                                                   of these offices will have on Main Street businesses in urban areas?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. Well, it is really unfortunate because what it means
                                                                   is that you have got honest, hardworking entrepreneurs that are
                                                                   now caught in the middle of a game of political football that none
                                                                   of them wanted to have anything to do with in the first place. I
                                                                   will say that the example from 2019, the relocation of the USDA
                                                                   offices, is a good example of what happens. When the USDA office
                                                                   was moved from D.C. to Kansas back in 2019, 75 percent of the
                                                                   workforce left. The local shops that depended on that regular foot
                                                                   traffic languished. And Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney at the time
                                                                   was actually caught saying that this was all designed just to fire
                                                                   people, essentially. So it would be good, I think that if we, if we
                                                                   talked about it in those sort of blunt terms is just like, yeah, we
                                                                   wanted, we would like to get rid of folks at the SBA. But this is
                                                                   a PR sleight of hand that is really disadvantaging folks. And the
                                                                   local economies will—that are—that thrive on that foot traffic in
                                                                   Atlanta and Boston and Denver are certainly going to feel the ef-
                                                                   fects of it.
                                                                      Mr. TRAN. Thank you for that. And then on March 3rd of 2025,
                                                                   the U.S. Chamber of Commerce published a report titled I’m Afraid
                                                                   Small Businesses Speak out on Tariffs. The report found that ter-
                                                                   rorists will have a real devastating impact on thousands of small
                                                                   businesses across the nation and on all Americans in the form of
                                                                   higher prices. What are you hearing from the small businesses in
                                                                   the Main Street Alliance?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. I have an inbox filled with terrified messages,
                                                                   phone calls, and text messages from small business owners that
                                                                   aren’t really sure how they are going to continue operating if some




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                                                                   of these tariffs go through. I mean, we saw a report released from
                                                                   NFIB, historically the conservative voice for small business Amer-
                                                                   ica, just came out and showed that February 12 percent of small
                                                                   business owners thought it was a good time to expand their busi-
                                                                   ness. That is a 5 percent drop from the previous month, the largest
                                                                   drop in that indicator since April 2020 when COVID struck. So you
                                                                   have got folks that are really scared out here and it is no laughing
                                                                   matter.
                                                                      Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Trent. I am going to shift to you, Mr.
                                                                   Gutierrez. SBDCs have received level funding over the years, yet
                                                                   you are being asked to do more and more with less and less. Can
                                                                   you please share the importance of full funding for the SBDCs?
                                                                   And how does lurching from one continuing resolution to another
                                                                   hurt SBDC’s ability to counsel small businesses?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you for the question. So when a CR
                                                                   happens to be quite honest with you, it doesn’t affect us because
                                                                   we all have to do what we do on a daily basis, and that is serve
                                                                   our clients. What it does is it promotes the reliance on our host
                                                                   universities to help or to offset any type of potential funding slow-
                                                                   down. And as far as SBDCs being out there and doing the things
                                                                   that we do, we just keep our head down, focused on serving those
                                                                   small businesses, and make sure that we are able to do what is
                                                                   asked of us, what is tasked of us through the grant program that
                                                                   we are tasked with, so.
                                                                      Mr. TRAN. So thank you, Chairman. I yield back.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Ranking Member. I now recog-
                                                                   nize Mr. Finstad from Minnesota for five minutes.
                                                                      Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
                                                                   holding this important subcommittee hearing today. And thank you
                                                                   to our witnesses for taking time to be with us. Over the past four
                                                                   years, small businesses across our country have been struggling to
                                                                   keep their doors open with the impacts of record high inflation,
                                                                   supply chain disruptions, and burdensome regulations hindering
                                                                   their growth. I have heard firsthand from small businesses across
                                                                   my district about the impact that they have felt over the last few
                                                                   years here and what it has meant to their businesses and opportu-
                                                                   nities or lack of opportunities across Southern Minnesota.
                                                                      So that being said, I want to go to Mr. Ortiz. As President CEO
                                                                   of the Job Creators Network, you know the important role the SBA
                                                                   plays in supporting small business owners. One of the things that
                                                                   I have seen in past experience working in federal government is
                                                                   the ability to meet the customers’ needs. And that is usually a rela-
                                                                   tionship based, face to face, how can I help you kind of situation.
                                                                   And so, I am really happy to hear that Administrator Loeffler has
                                                                   returned the SBA to in person work. And so, just want to know
                                                                   from you, do you believe this move will improve the services at
                                                                   SBA?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Congressman, thank you for the question. I believe
                                                                   the face to face is critical for the interaction for small business
                                                                   owners, for their success. I still would say that we have to get more
                                                                   people out to the field, to the resources where the small business
                                                                   owners are. It is great that there are some small businesses here
                                                                   in the D.C. area serving the community and serving Congress, but
                                                                   that is not where the bulk of our small businesses are. It is out in




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                                                                   the field. It is out, you know, in Pella, Iowa, in Portland, Oregon.
                                                                   It is all across the country. That is where they need to be, and that
                                                                   is where the resources need to be allocated. And so, I think it is
                                                                   a great step in the right direction, but I think we need to go fur-
                                                                   ther and we need to reallocate those resources out to the fields.
                                                                      Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you for that. And all I would say is preach,
                                                                   keep preaching. And I represent a district of 21 counties, pretty
                                                                   rural Southern Minnesota. And a lot of times these counties feel
                                                                   like they are flyover land for organizations like SBA. And so, I com-
                                                                   pletely agree with you.
                                                                      Moving a little bit. In February, I was proud to reintroduce, for
                                                                   the second time the House passed the Prove IT Act. And the
                                                                   PROVE IT Act, it received the Job Creators Network endorsement.
                                                                   And this bill would give our small businesses a voice in the regu-
                                                                   latory process as they work to serve their communities and pursue
                                                                   the American dream. What impact, Mr. Ortiz, do you think that
                                                                   the passage of this legislation would have on small businesses in
                                                                   navigating the regulatory environment?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Thank you, again, for the question, Congressman.
                                                                   This is a game changer for small businesses, no doubt about it.
                                                                   And we are glad to see that Senator Ernst also introduced the com-
                                                                   panion legislation in the United States Senate on this. This is crit-
                                                                   ical. I think for too long, agencies have been given a pass in terms
                                                                   of trying to do what they are supposed to do, which is show the
                                                                   impact to small businesses on regulations. Too many waivers have
                                                                   been signed to basically say, no, it is actually fine. And small busi-
                                                                   nesses have been hurt all along the way. They don’t have the re-
                                                                   sources to come and bring all their lawyers and, you know, 12 law-
                                                                   yers and everything else that they need at the end of the legislative
                                                                   process to try to challenge stuff and go to the Supreme Court. They
                                                                   don’t have the resources to do it. They are trying to run their busi-
                                                                   nesses 24/7. And so, having the opportunity to finally force agencies
                                                                   to actually consider the effect of regulation on small businesses is
                                                                   critical. And having the opportunity to have a seat at the table at
                                                                   the beginning of the process rather than the end of the process is
                                                                   absolutely critical. Again, this is a game changer, and I think we
                                                                   need to do everything we can to make sure that it passes quickly,
                                                                   swiftly, and in this Congress.
                                                                      Mr. FINSTAD. I appreciate those comments, and I couldn’t agree
                                                                   more with you. It is, you know, really a dereliction of duty from
                                                                   Congress because we pass these good intended laws, we leave it up
                                                                   to the regulatory state to create all the hoops, and loops, and bells,
                                                                   and whistles, and the rules and regulatory climate that our busi-
                                                                   ness has to live under with no opportunity to weigh in on, wait a
                                                                   minute, you know, this is going to impact us. And to your point,
                                                                   small businesses don’t have stables of lawyers and compliance offi-
                                                                   cers.
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Right.
                                                                      Mr. FINSTAD. And so, giving them more power in the regulatory
                                                                   process is something I am going to work hard for, so, I appreciate
                                                                   your support on that.
                                                                      One last question here for Mr. Gutierrez. As Missouri’s SBDC di-
                                                                   rector, you more than likely have a great pulse for what is impact-
                                                                   ing small businesses across your state. How has the regulatory en-




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                                                                   vironment impacted small businesses in your community? And
                                                                   what can we do here in Congress to ensure Main Street businesses
                                                                   have the ability to grow and prosper?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Sure. One big topic for a lot of small busi-
                                                                   nesses, well, for most small businesses, has been the Corporate
                                                                   Transparency Act that was introduced, I believe it was, last year,
                                                                   and then rescinded, and then paused, and going back and forth.
                                                                   That has some very, very tough situations——
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. The gentleman’s time has expired. I now
                                                                   recognize Mr. Cisneros from California for five minutes.
                                                                      Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The conclusion of
                                                                   the majority’s hearing memo included, you know, the SBA’s Mr.
                                                                   Ortiz’s testimony included ending the Agency’s politicization. Mr.
                                                                   Gutierrez shared that the SBA should not focus on political agen-
                                                                   das. Mr. Trent, you highlighted to us that this shouldn’t be about
                                                                   partisanship. We all agreed. And we should not be politicizing the
                                                                   SBA. And this committee has passed multiple bipartisan pieces of
                                                                   legislation, unanimously. So far, today, we heard the SBA should
                                                                   go to where the people are, put Main Street America first. Yet we
                                                                   have an administrator, an SBA administrator, targeting major cit-
                                                                   ies led by Democratic mayors as she seeks to close SBA regional
                                                                   offices in Boston, Seattle, Chicago, Atlanta, New York City, and
                                                                   Denver. And it is probably not long before my area of Los Angeles
                                                                   County is on that list as well.
                                                                      So, Mr. Trent, in your view, how does the brazen politicization
                                                                   of SBA to close offices in major metropolitan areas impact small
                                                                   businesses?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. Yeah, it impacts them directly. And listen, I feel for
                                                                   and have thousands of small business owners in rural areas, Min-
                                                                   nesota, Wisconsin. And I hear from them, you know, it is abso-
                                                                   lutely, it can be tough to access some of these SBA resources. And
                                                                   you know what, it is okay to talk about maybe moving a couple
                                                                   staff to different parts of the country to have more direct service
                                                                   for rural entrepreneurs. But the truth is that you have got hun-
                                                                   dreds of thousands of entrepreneurs concentrated in Atlanta, in
                                                                   Denver, in Boston, that are going to feel the effects of sort of this
                                                                   move away from these entrepreneurship hubs. And it is really un-
                                                                   fortunate, I would say. And we can already feel the rumblings, and
                                                                   it adds to this environment of uncertainty for entrepreneurs that
                                                                   are going to have to take on more costs, frankly, just to meet basic
                                                                   technical assistance needs.
                                                                      Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you for that answer. Again, Mr. Trent,
                                                                   you represent a nationwide network of over 30,000 small business
                                                                   owners, many of which depend on the SBA. In your testimony, you
                                                                   urge the committee to reject policies that inject instability into the
                                                                   economy. As we have seen with the Trump tariffs, the President is
                                                                   on again, off again, based on whoever is in his ear at that given
                                                                   moment. Main Street is getting whiplash. How important is it for
                                                                   small businesses to have stability?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. It is unbelievably important. So, around 50 percent
                                                                   of small businesses across the country are operating with about a
                                                                   month of operating reserves. So, we have got to be making deci-
                                                                   sions that are reflective of the fact that we respect these small
                                                                   business owners. We respect where they are, right, with that little




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                                                                   operating reserve. And the uncertainty around the tariffs, the will
                                                                   they, won’t they soap opera, it affects budgeting for entrepreneurs.
                                                                   It affects planning. It affects the way that they are thinking about
                                                                   growing their teams in the year ahead. And so, there are the direct
                                                                   impacts as tariffs start to come into play. But then there are the
                                                                   knock-on effects that we are really not going to be able to know the
                                                                   full extent of the problem until six months, a year from now.
                                                                      Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you. According to the SBA’s own website,
                                                                   the Office of the Inspector General provides independent, objective,
                                                                   and timely oversight to improve the integrity, accountability, and
                                                                   performance of SBA and its programs for the benefit of the Amer-
                                                                   ican people. The SBA administrator on day one said, from day one,
                                                                   the SBA will uphold the highest standards of accountability, per-
                                                                   formance, and integrity. Mr. Trent, how can the SBA have the
                                                                   highest standards if the office tasked to provide oversight is va-
                                                                   cant? Did President Trump’s illegal firing of the Inspector General
                                                                   already undermine the administrator wanting to uphold the high-
                                                                   est standards of accountability and integrity?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. It is going to be tough without someone in that of-
                                                                   fice as that Inspector General is not just the main person inves-
                                                                   tigating a lot of fraud and abuse within the agency, but also a
                                                                   sounding board for thousands and thousands of entrepreneurs
                                                                   across the country. So, with that post vacant, that is an ally for
                                                                   small business owners that is not there right now. And frankly, it
                                                                   is going to be scary for our entrepreneurial class.
                                                                      Mr. CISNEROS. All right, well, thank you for your testimony
                                                                   and I yield my time back.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Cisneros. I now recognize
                                                                   Chairman Williams from the great state of Texas for five minutes.
                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Mr. Trent, on
                                                                   a side note, thanks for being here.
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. You are saying Dodge pickups went up from
                                                                   $18,000 to $20,000?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. $80,000 to $100,000.
                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. Yeah, I am a Dodge pickup dealer.
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. It is a good truck.
                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. In Texas. And we are selling for $70,000.
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. So it sounds like a good profit off——
                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. So, you need to get down there and see me.
                                                                      Mr. Gutierrez, as we have been discussing, bloated and duplica-
                                                                   tive SBA programs waste taxpayers’ dollars and undermine the ef-
                                                                   ficiency of the effectiveness of services provided small business.
                                                                   Could you elaborate on ways the committee can streamline SBA
                                                                   programs?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Sure. I love the idea of having more SBA pres-
                                                                   ence in the field to serve the rural communities. I believe that
                                                                   there is a lot of programs that were created to duplicate some of
                                                                   the services that we have been doing for over 40 years. For exam-
                                                                   ple, I believe the Navigators program was designed to reach those
                                                                   underserved populations. We are already there. We are already
                                                                   serving the underserved populations from rural America to Main
                                                                   Street, Saint Louis, Main Street, Kansas City, to down in Joplin,
                                                                   Missouri. We do all that sort of stuff.




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                                                                      So to have that money duplicated to a whole new agency or orga-
                                                                   nization, you are recreating the wheel. We have been doing it for,
                                                                   like I mentioned, over 40 years. During the time that there was
                                                                   CARES Act money, we were allocated a large amount of money.
                                                                   Our results doubled or sometimes tripled in some of the areas.
                                                                      When that funding did go away, we were left with. We called
                                                                   what we believe would have been the COVID cliff where the money
                                                                   dried up, but the demand for our services didn’t. We are still at an
                                                                   all-time high. So the services that we provide, we often have up to
                                                                   two weeks before someone can come in and see one of our business
                                                                   counselors in the rural area. But as far as duplication of process,
                                                                   we are the ones, the first ones here. We will be the last ones out
                                                                   the door because we are here every day, doing what we need to do
                                                                   to serve Main Street America.
                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you. Mr. Ortiz, as you mentioned in your
                                                                   testimony, assessing the performance of SBA programs is impor-
                                                                   tant to maximizing utility of a taxpayer resource in aiding and sup-
                                                                   porting small businesses. So my question to you would be, what
                                                                   performance metrics would you suggest the SBA consider imple-
                                                                   menting to maximize the effectiveness of the SBA program?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Chairman Williams, thank you very much for the
                                                                   question. In this era of DOGE, I think trying to achieve that com-
                                                                   bination of effective and efficient is what we need to do here. And
                                                                   with the SBA, that is one of the things we need to do as well. I
                                                                   think it is important that we set metrics to know that we are suc-
                                                                   cessful. One of the biggest metrics that I see that we can do, and
                                                                   this is a very, very tangible one, is this failure rate of small busi-
                                                                   nesses. For example, the failure rate for small business first year
                                                                   is about 20 percent. And when you look into the number one reason
                                                                   why, it is because they don’t know how to create a business plan.
                                                                      So again, I go back to the teach the fishermen how to fish. Let
                                                                   us actually teach them how to create business plans. Imagine if we
                                                                   could reduce that failure rate in four years from 20 percent to 10
                                                                   percent. You have 33 million small business owners. One could ac-
                                                                   tually conceive that you create another 15 million small businesses
                                                                   by doing so. And if each small business employs two people, you
                                                                   have just added 30 million more American small businesses or jobs
                                                                   to those small businesses. And so, there is an important metric
                                                                   there that we need to take into account, establishing, I guess, this
                                                                   effective and efficient combination of a $1.5 billion agency. It is not
                                                                   necessarily about saving money. It is just about making those dol-
                                                                   lars work harder for American taxpayers.
                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, that is great. And we know that small
                                                                   business is the backbone of our country; 99 percent of the busi-
                                                                   nesses are small businesses; 75 percent of the workforce and pay-
                                                                   roll is done by small business.
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. That is correct.
                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. And we have got to keep risk and reward in
                                                                   their life all the time, where they can take some risk and get re-
                                                                   ward and not be burdened by regulations in the federal govern-
                                                                   ment. Easier to compete against each other than to compete
                                                                   against the federal government.
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. That is correct. But——




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                                                                      Mr. WILLIAMS. I think every single day. With that, Mr. Chair-
                                                                   man. They have never been cheaper than they are today, Mr.
                                                                   Trent, let me tell you that, okay. And thanks for letting me have
                                                                   fun with you, okay. I yield my time back.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I now recognize Mrs.
                                                                   McIver from New Jersey for five minutes.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member for
                                                                   having this hearing and thank you to our witnesses for joining us
                                                                   today. This hearing could not come at a better time considering the
                                                                   rapid changes occurring at the Small Business Administration.
                                                                   SBA’s work has helped turn the dreams of countless everyday en-
                                                                   trepreneurs into reality and has helped thousands climb up the so-
                                                                   cioeconomic ladder in America. My home district, the 10th District
                                                                   in the great state of New Jersey, is proud to host the SBA New Jer-
                                                                   sey Regional Office, providing important services all over the Gar-
                                                                   den State. For years, SBA employees have worked hard for the
                                                                   American people, and we owe it to them to ensure that they are
                                                                   treated fairly while performing their work for our communities.
                                                                      As mentioned in this committee hearing today, we have heard
                                                                   over and over again about the reckless firings of hundreds of em-
                                                                   ployees at SBA, including the probationary employees, which is
                                                                   why I introduced the MERIT Act to ensure that these employees
                                                                   are granted back their jobs immediately and the backpay.
                                                                      I have heard from many of you today about the strains on the
                                                                   Department, which obviously trickle down to the businesses and
                                                                   the support that they are able to get. So for each of the witnesses
                                                                   today, I would like to ask, do you support the firing of these hun-
                                                                   dreds of employees? We can start with Mr. Gutierrez.
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Under the current direction of the administra-
                                                                   tion, I would say yes.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. It is funny because in your opening statement,
                                                                   you said that they were short staffed. So, I mean, the SBA is al-
                                                                   ready short staffed, but you support the firing of these hundreds
                                                                   of employees that was just recently fired?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. I would say that the majority of the firings,
                                                                   from what I understand and what I have read, are out of the D.C.
                                                                   area as opposed to what is going on in the field. I know that the
                                                                   field has been really underrepresented, and I believe that when you
                                                                   have any type of transition like this that could lead to potentially
                                                                   more stability down the line, that is something that, from a private
                                                                   standpoint, that goes to efficiency. So, yes, I understand that there
                                                                   has been lots of jobs left or lost, but to my point earlier, those jobs
                                                                   are never out in the field, and they were never really affecting a
                                                                   lot of the regions that they were in.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. Do you know that for sure?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Well, I can speak directly to the Missouri and
                                                                   the Kansas City offices.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. But not for the entire, not for every office or
                                                                   every——
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Of course not. I can’t speak for across the na-
                                                                   tion.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. Okay, thank you. Mr. Ortiz?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. I worked at a consulting agency called Boston Con-
                                                                   sulting Group. This is something that we used to do day in and day




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                                                                   out, is trying to make sure that we have an organization that is
                                                                   more effective and efficient for, in this particular case, it is not an
                                                                   organization, but it is an agency that works for the federal govern-
                                                                   ment who actually is taxpayer funded. We have a responsibility to
                                                                   our small business owners to make sure that we have the most ef-
                                                                   fective and efficient not only agency, but people working for it. I
                                                                   was a small business owner, and I will tell you that I bet every-
                                                                   thing I had on my small business, and I wanted to make sure that
                                                                   every small business owner that goes to the SBA knows that they
                                                                   have the most effective and efficient people working in the Agency.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. It is a yes or no, Mr. Ortiz.
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Well, that is my answer, ma’am.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. So you don’t—it is yes or no. Do you support the
                                                                   firings of those people?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. I support a more effective and efficient agency.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. Okay, next. Mr. Trent?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. No.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you.
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. Yeah, I mean, I come at this work as a veteran fam-
                                                                   ily. And so, I think when I think of SBA, I think of veteran entre-
                                                                   preneurs. My grandfather served in World War II. My brothers,
                                                                   both in the Army. One went to, was deployed to Iraq. You have got
                                                                   thousands and thousands of veteran entrepreneurs who started
                                                                   businesses. That growth rate in veteran-owned businesses doubled
                                                                   in the first two years of the Biden administration. Now you have
                                                                   got those same veterans who served our country defending the free-
                                                                   doms that a lot of us take for granted, who have had the rug pulled
                                                                   out from under them as a result of these mass firings. It is shame-
                                                                   ful.
                                                                      Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much for that. I want to thank the
                                                                   witnesses, even those who kind of skated around the question. But
                                                                   the point of the matter is, is we have to make it make sense. We
                                                                   cannot sit up here and say that, you know, it is, we need a more
                                                                   efficient, we need to have more help at SBA. We hear from dif-
                                                                   ferent businesses all the time about the delay in assistance that
                                                                   they can get from SBA sometimes. So, saying—sitting up here say-
                                                                   ing that we support the firings or we don’t support, there is not
                                                                   enough staffing, it is just not all making sense. And we should be
                                                                   supporting our small businesses and making sure we are delivering
                                                                   to them as much assistance that we can do. That is our job here,
                                                                   not to be making things harder for them.
                                                                      Thank you. With that, I yield back.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent for
                                                                   Mr. Wied from Wisconsin to wave onto this hearing without objec-
                                                                   tion. So ordered. I now recognize Mr. Wied for five minutes.
                                                                      Mr. WIED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to speak
                                                                   in today’s hearing. And thank you to the witnesses who came here
                                                                   to share their experiences with us. Northeast Wisconsin is home to
                                                                   a wide variety of small businesses who have faced economic uncer-
                                                                   tainty due to an overreaching and overtaxing federal government.
                                                                   As a former small business owner myself, I know the challenges
                                                                   you must overcome to operate and grow a successful small busi-
                                                                   ness. Under this previous administration, small businesses across




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                                                                   the country faced increased regulatory burdens, which made start-
                                                                   ing, running, and growing a small business more difficult.
                                                                      At the same time, the Small Business Administration enacted
                                                                   policies, such as allowing its employees to work from home, that
                                                                   negatively impacted small businesses. It is important that as a
                                                                   committee, we address these broken and burdensome policies and
                                                                   make Main Street America great again.
                                                                      My first question is for Mr. Ortiz. In your opening statement, you
                                                                   spoke about the additional $2 trillion of regulatory burdens levied
                                                                   on businesses during the Biden administration. Having fewer em-
                                                                   ployees and less financial services, small businesses bear an in-
                                                                   creased burden of these additional regulations. As Members of the
                                                                   Small Business Committee, what should our top priority be to re-
                                                                   duce these regulations and provide immediate regulatory relief to
                                                                   small businesses?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Thank you very much for the question, Congress-
                                                                   man. One of the hardest things during the past four years under
                                                                   the Biden administration for small businesses was the regulatory
                                                                   environment that existed. About $1.8 billion that was placed on our
                                                                   businesses across the country. And also inflation. When you take
                                                                   those two together, it was a huge burden for small businesses. And
                                                                   quite frankly, when you look at it, compared to our large corpora-
                                                                   tions, it was an extreme danger, really, for our small businesses on
                                                                   Main Street. And so, we have to make sure that we reduce that
                                                                   regulatory environment.
                                                                      I heard the Congressman on this side talk about 21 million small
                                                                   business applications, for example, filed. In our cursory review of
                                                                   those 21 million small business applications, those are actually
                                                                   gross applications. So, for example, they are not actually net appli-
                                                                   cations. For example, if I had a business in New York and I am
                                                                   trying to flee New York to go to Florida because there are less
                                                                   taxes and less regulatory environment there. That Joe’s Pizza Place
                                                                   that moves from Texas, excuse me, from New York down to Florida
                                                                   is considered a new business, according to the Biden administra-
                                                                   tion numbers of those 21 million applications.
                                                                      And so, when we look at the net applications, actually, small
                                                                   businesses didn’t grow in those four years of the Biden administra-
                                                                   tion. They shriveled because of that regulatory environment and
                                                                   because of high inflation. And so, we have got to make sure that
                                                                   we address those, too. And the last I checked, the SBA is not a jobs
                                                                   bank. It is an environment. It is an agency that needs to serve the
                                                                   American small business owner, and there are 33 million of them
                                                                   that are struggling right now. Thank you.
                                                                      Mr. WIED. All right, thank you. I yield back.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Wied. I now recognize Ms.
                                                                   Simon from California for five minutes.
                                                                      Ms. SIMON. Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.
                                                                   We don’t have to argue that small businesses are the backbone of
                                                                   our economy. I love this committee because we consistently lift that
                                                                   up. You know, there are many issues that have been covered in
                                                                   this hearing, and I will repeat some of them. You know, my con-
                                                                   cern, the concern of many is that we have come together as a com-
                                                                   mittee with a profound mission of advancing opportunities for
                                                                   small businesses in this country.




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                                                                      You know, just in the last few days, we know that 403s and
                                                                   401(k)s have been thrown out of the window for folks. Folks have
                                                                   lost so much. We also know that in this committee, we have said
                                                                   together, cross aisle, we will make a commitment to disabled folks,
                                                                   to our veterans, to women-owned businesses, on Main Street, on
                                                                   Telegraph Street, on Broadway Streets. And here we are having a
                                                                   conversation, trying to figure out how to advance our way forward.
                                                                   I think we all know what we want. We want a more efficient sec-
                                                                   tor. We want a government agency that can show up at the doors,
                                                                   where the websites work.
                                                                      Within the last two weeks, hundreds of SBA workers have been
                                                                   fired. Fired. We are talking about closing down six agencies in
                                                                   major cities in this country. So, I want folks who are watching to
                                                                   know the dry cleaner, the auto repair dealer, the barber shop, the
                                                                   woman who called my office yesterday, who is starting a home care
                                                                   business to make sure that our elders have trained wonderful MAs
                                                                   at their homes every single day doing work that many of us have
                                                                   never done. Where is she going to go? She called from outside of
                                                                   my district to get support. You know what, she will be on the
                                                                   phone for hours. The websites, they were already difficult to access
                                                                   three administrations ago, four administrations ago. What are we
                                                                   doing? What are we doing?
                                                                      And now, we have this conversation that has become real, that
                                                                   tariffs have met the doors of our small businesses. We know that
                                                                   entrepreneurs are already working day and night to keep their
                                                                   doors open. We also know that the cost of doing business in the last
                                                                   couple of weeks has shot up. These policies are cruel. They are
                                                                   cruel and they don’t focus on low-income, and middle-income, and
                                                                   working-class people who are trying to get off a government dole,
                                                                   who want to make good for themselves, and offer the folks in their
                                                                   communities, and their sons, and their daughters, jobs. They want
                                                                   to send their kids to college.
                                                                      We are kicking them in the ribs. Not only the folks who work for
                                                                   Small Business Agency, but the folks who are on the ground. You
                                                                   hire an Inspector General and you fire them. You fire tons of work-
                                                                   ers, hundreds of workers. And then we have a policy that chooses
                                                                   to enact tariffs that will destabilize this country. It is cruel. And
                                                                   we know that. We don’t have to litigate that. Any one of us who
                                                                   have run small businesses, who have run payrolls. I have ran pay-
                                                                   rolls since I was 19 years old. I have hired hundreds of workers.
                                                                   I have trained workers to leave incarceration in the streets, in fos-
                                                                   ter care, to get jobs. Whether they are doctors or lawyers or med-
                                                                   ical providers, I have done that work. I know how hard it is to keep
                                                                   an institution alive when you are by yourself.
                                                                      Fine, close six agencies and see what happens to our economy.
                                                                   We will see. We will see. When you fire IRS workers, when you fire
                                                                   frontline workers in communities that are helping small busi-
                                                                   nesses. I have to ask, do we care? Do we truly care about folks on
                                                                   the ground?
                                                                      You know, I have one quick question, which I think I know the
                                                                   answer to. You know, with all that we are talking about, I want
                                                                   to say before I ask my question, and it will be quick. This fiscal
                                                                   year alone in my district, our local SBA office has served, served
                                                                   on the, like, literally on the front lines, 822 small businesses offer-




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                                                                   ing $351 million of direct loans to keep businesses afloat. If we
                                                                   care, we would advance those opportunities, not take them away.
                                                                   You are automating support through these actions.
                                                                      You know, Mr. Trent, only have a couple of seconds left. How can
                                                                   having field offices near metro areas be a strategic choice and also
                                                                   an effective use of taxpayer dollars to serve small businesses? How
                                                                   can having these offices near metro areas be a strategic choice to
                                                                   support small businesses? Just a quick answer.
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. I will just quickly say that because a lot of these
                                                                   city centers are hubs for entrepreneurship where there is a real
                                                                   preponderance of small business activity——
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. The gentlewoman’s time has expired. The
                                                                   Chair now recognizes Mr. Downing from Montana.
                                                                      Ms. SIMON. Thank you, sir.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to
                                                                   the witnesses. Under the Biden administration, SBA suffered from
                                                                   serious mismanagement that hindered the Agency’s ability to sup-
                                                                   port small business. You know, through irresponsible work from
                                                                   home policies, DEI mandates, and voter registration efforts, Biden’s
                                                                   SBA prioritized politics and bureaucracy over the interests of Main
                                                                   Street America.
                                                                      First, Mr. Gutierrez, your testimony demonstrates the power of
                                                                   small business centers, or SBDCs, to assist small businesses and,
                                                                   you know, produce a return on taxpayer investment. So, from your
                                                                   experience as the director of Missouri’s SBDC, how do they help
                                                                   support rural businesses which very often lack access to the infor-
                                                                   mation and training needed to thrive?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Thank you for the question. So, the Missouri
                                                                   SBDC serves all 114 counties in the city of Saint Louis. It is a
                                                                   large footprint across the state with 18 business service centers
                                                                   and two satellite locations. With a staff of 33 full-time folks. That
                                                                   is simply just not enough.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. Right.
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Unfortunately, we are not able to have a phys-
                                                                   ical presence. However, with the introduction of different tech-
                                                                   nologies, such as Zoom, Teams, things of that nature, we are able
                                                                   to reach more folks. We try to set up regional meetings where we
                                                                   are meeting with several different counties at once. We set up a re-
                                                                   volving schedule to meet with different cities, so we are there on
                                                                   a regular basis. But simply the fact is that we are stretched thin,
                                                                   just like many of our other partners in the field that are frontline,
                                                                   and we are doing as best as we can.
                                                                      I mentioned earlier that sometimes because of staffing issues and
                                                                   funding issues, it could take up to two weeks before they are able
                                                                   to see anybody in person at one of our rural business centers. We
                                                                   are just trying to do a lot with little.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you. So, how did the SBA’s work
                                                                   from home policies under the previous administration negatively
                                                                   impact your SBDC?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Quite honestly, they didn’t impact us at all be-
                                                                   cause we were on the ground. We were meeting with the busi-
                                                                   nesses on a regular basis. We knew that the SBA offices were
                                                                   there. We helped support them whenever possible. But during the
                                                                   last three or four years, we often found that traveling to the SBA




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                                                                   offices in both Kansas City and Saint Louis, unfortunately, the per-
                                                                   sonnel was not there.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. Okay.
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. I remember showing up for a meeting and no-
                                                                   body was there with the meeting with our SBA representative. So
                                                                   it is just a matter of, you know, we are doing the best we can to
                                                                   meet the needs of small business in rural America, and of course,
                                                                   obviously, Main Street America as well.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. Thanks. According to a 2024 report from this
                                                                   committee, the Biden administration attempted to leverage SBDCs
                                                                   to promote voter registration activities. Were you ever approached
                                                                   by the Biden administration to support their voter registration ef-
                                                                   forts?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. Fortunately, in the state of Missouri, we were
                                                                   not.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. Do you believe the administration would have
                                                                   approached you if Missouri were a more competitive state in their
                                                                   presidential politics?
                                                                      Mr. GUTIERREZ. I would like to think that we would not have
                                                                   been approached, but I can’t answer that hypothetical.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Sir. Moving on. Mr. Ortiz, in your
                                                                   testimony, you emphasize the truly egregious nature of SBA’s polit-
                                                                   ical activities under the Biden administration. How have these ac-
                                                                   tivities damaged SBA’s reputation as a reliable partner for small
                                                                   businesses across our country?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Thank you, Congressman, for the question. Unfortu-
                                                                   nately, small business owners just don’t believe and trust in the
                                                                   SBA anymore. I think they look to other partners outside of the
                                                                   SBA. And quite frankly, there are a lot of great partners out there.
                                                                   Goldman Sachs, American Express, for example, run some fan-
                                                                   tastic small business programs. Sir, Mr. Gutierrez runs great pro-
                                                                   grams as well. So, I think what we need to do is we need to restore
                                                                   confidence in the SBA.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. And what steps can SBA take to restore con-
                                                                   fidence with small business?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. Well, I mentioned already in the testimony, I think
                                                                   part of it is we got to move resources out to the fields. Better re-
                                                                   sources, more effective resources. I think, you know, certain folks
                                                                   were let go. I would question, and make the question is maybe they
                                                                   were—maybe they should have been let go because they weren’t ex-
                                                                   actly the most effective resources for our small business owners.
                                                                   We need to make sure that we ensure people who have the experi-
                                                                   ence to be able to make suggestions, for example, on how to create
                                                                   small business plans for small business owners. We talk a lot
                                                                   about, and the left talked about, the Democrats talked a lot about
                                                                   establishing small businesses need certainty, for example. Well, if
                                                                   they needed certainty, I wonder why they didn’t vote, for example,
                                                                   in the last budget, you know, the budget bill. None of them voted
                                                                   for a budget that included the extension of the Tax Cuts and Jobs
                                                                   Act. If they need certainty——
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. And how important do you think that is for
                                                                   Main Street America, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act?
                                                                      Mr. ORTIZ. It is hugely important. In 2017, with the Tax Cuts
                                                                   and Jobs Act, that provided the impetus for the successful economy




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                                                                   that we had was the two biggest parts of the small business needs
                                                                   were the tax deduction and the immediate expense——
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. The gentleman’s time has expired. We now
                                                                   recognize Ms. Goodlander from New Hampshire for five minutes.
                                                                      Mr. DOWNING. Thank you.
                                                                      Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you,
                                                                   Ranking Member Tran. I really believe deeply in the work of the
                                                                   Oversight Subcommittee. We all swore—one thing that unites us
                                                                   all in this committee and in Congress is we all swore an oath to
                                                                   protect and defend this important document, the United States
                                                                   Constitution. And one of the core responsibilities of Congress is
                                                                   oversight. It is because oversight is about transparency, which is
                                                                   essential to public trust. Oversight is essential to cracking down on
                                                                   waste, fraud, and abuse, which I am deeply committed to. Over-
                                                                   sight is about making sure that our government works for hard-
                                                                   working people. And that we give the American people and our
                                                                   small businesses the certainty that they need and deserve.
                                                                      Another core Constitutional responsibility of Congress is the
                                                                   power of the purse, the power to direct and control federal spend-
                                                                   ing. And that is because we live in a democracy and not in a mon-
                                                                   archy. And so, what we have seen in the last 51 days is an unprec-
                                                                   edented assault on this power of Congress. It is an assault that is
                                                                   lawless, it is dangerous, and it has had a really bad impact on so
                                                                   many of our small businesses and workers across this country and
                                                                   across New Hampshire.
                                                                      Mr. Trent, you testified that federal funding freezes are a direct
                                                                   attack on small businesses, on the stability that small businesses
                                                                   need. And that is certainly what I am hearing from small busi-
                                                                   nesses across New Hampshire who are unsure about whether they
                                                                   can keep workers on payroll; who aren’t sure how they are going
                                                                   to provide health care to those workers. I wondered if you could say
                                                                   more about what you are seeing from federal funding freezes across
                                                                   the country.
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. So, we have got hundreds of members that were di-
                                                                   rectly impacted by those funding freezes and the impact ripples
                                                                   throughout their own local economy. One member in New Glarus,
                                                                   Wisconsin, runs a childcare facility. Worried about state block
                                                                   grant funding. She thought that she might not be able to make
                                                                   payroll the next month and would have to fire half of her team.
                                                                      We have in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, a member who does
                                                                   groundbreaking research for the government. She logs into her
                                                                   funding portal one morning and finds that the funding that was
                                                                   supposed to be powering her work was nowhere to be found. To-
                                                                   tally, totally frozen. We have still got folks who are wrestling with
                                                                   these freezes, and everyone is just told to be excited about the in-
                                                                   coming deregulation regime. And so, it is really unfair. And we are
                                                                   certainly hearing from most of our members that this is something
                                                                   that is impacting them every single day.
                                                                      Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I should say also, the impact of these
                                                                   freezes has been on SBA workers in the state of New Hampshire.
                                                                   It is not just here in the Capital. It is across the country in field
                                                                   offices, which is harming our small businesses, too.
                                                                      Mr. Trent, you wrote about a subject that I care deeply about,
                                                                   fair competition. And I think it is another issue that should unite




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                                                                   us all here in Congress. Our antitrust and consumer protection
                                                                   laws are as old, the ideas in them are as old as America. It is about
                                                                   checking power. And here on the Small Business Committee, we
                                                                   are about bringing power back to our small businesses at a time
                                                                   when the American economy has never been more consolidated.
                                                                      You wrote about the impact of the unprecedented access that an
                                                                   unelected billionaire in the White House has to the sensitive data
                                                                   of small businesses and of people across the United States. You tes-
                                                                   tified that this destroys fair competition alongside the destruction
                                                                   of public trust. Can you say more about that?
                                                                      Mr. TRENT. So there is a reason why Walmart doesn’t have ac-
                                                                   cess to the books of the mom-and-pop stores right down the street
                                                                   from it. There is a reason why no other CEO in this country has
                                                                   access to the bank statements, taxpayer data, of small businesses
                                                                   because it is an unbelievably unfair advantage. And this includes
                                                                   the taxpayer data and bank statements of some of Elon Musk’s ac-
                                                                   tual competitors. And so, we need to be doing everything in our
                                                                   power to make sure that the playing field is level for small busi-
                                                                   nesses to compete.
                                                                      And I will just respond by respectfully disagreeing with some
                                                                   statements around deregulation and tax code that have been made
                                                                   with. Deregulation can be good, but very often the benefits accrue
                                                                   to the largest companies in the world. The repeal of Dodd-Frank
                                                                   and the lessening of restrictions around capital requirements inevi-
                                                                   tably led to the fallout of Silicon Valley Bank. J.P. Morgan was
                                                                   quick to gobble up thousands and thousands of depositors while a
                                                                   lot of different small banks languished. Right. The tax code, 82 per-
                                                                   cent of surveyed small business owners believe that the tax code
                                                                   is currently rigged against them, favoring large corporations. So
                                                                   you have got a growing sentiment among small business owners
                                                                   that things aren’t fair and we need to do something to fix that.
                                                                      Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. The gentlewoman’s time has expired.
                                                                      Ms. GOODLANDER. I yield back.
                                                                      Chairman ALFORD. All right. Thank you so much. I want to
                                                                   personally thank each and every one of you. Mr. Gutierrez, Mr.
                                                                   Ortiz, and Mr. Trent. It was a fascinating conversation today.
                                                                   Thank you for your testimony and your investment in small busi-
                                                                   nesses in our future. I want to thank Ranking Member Tran, and
                                                                   all the Members of this subcommittee, and also the staff, which
                                                                   really is the impetus and the hard work behind what goes on here.
                                                                   So thank you, staff. Without objection, Members have five legisla-
                                                                   tive days to submit additional materials and written questions for
                                                                   the witnesses to the Chair, which will be forwarded to the wit-
                                                                   nesses. I ask the witnesses to please respond promptly to those. If
                                                                   there is no further business, without objection, the committee is ad-
                                                                   journed.
                                                                      [Whereupon, at 11:30 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]




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                                                                                                           APPENDIX




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                                                                                                                      42




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                                                                                                                      43




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 43 here 59421.015


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                                                                                                                      44




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 44 here 59421.016


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                                                                                                                      45




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 45 here 59421.017


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                                                                                                                      46




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 46 here 59421.018


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                                                                                                                      47




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 47 here 59421.019


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                                                                                                                      48




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 48 here 59421.020


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                                                                                                                      49




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 49 here 59421.021


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                                                                                                                      50




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 50 here 59421.022


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                                                                                                                      51




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 51 here 59421.023


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                                                                                                                      52




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 52 here 59421.024


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                                                                                                                      53




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 53 here 59421.025


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                                                                                                                      54




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 54 here 59421.026


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                                                                                                                      55




                                                                                                                      Æ




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 55 here 59421.027


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CHRG-119hhrg59421.pdf
Size
5,905,122 bytes
SHA-256
4b834d4152ba49fa828960ca3c16fcb5717492bb66e2503e8cc1379a2981e00d
Our copy
CHRG-119hhrg59421.pdf
Original
www.govinfo.gov
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