Promoting Opportunity: The Need for Targeted Federal Business Programs to Address Ongoing Racial Discrimination (Senate Small Business Committee hearing, May 6, 2024)
Summary
S. HRG. 118–385, the printed record of a field hearing titled Promoting Opportunity: The Need for Targeted Federal Business Programs to Address Ongoing Racial Discrimination before the Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, held May 6, 2024 in the 118th Congress. Opening statements come from Senator Benjamin L. Cardin and Senator Chris Van Hollen. The six witnesses are Natalia Luis, Tonya Lawson, Ronnette R. Meyers, Gary Moore, Andres Bernal and Gary Cunningham, each with a prepared statement. The record also lists additional letters and statements, including one from Senator Joni Ernst dated May 6, 2024 and others from Asian Americans Advancing Justice, the Association for Enterprise Opportunity and the Capital Region Minority Supplier Development Council.
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Cite this document
“Promoting Opportunity: The Need for Targeted Federal Business Programs to Address Ongoing Racial Discrimination (Senate Small Business Committee hearing, May 6, 2024).”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/promoting-opportunity-the-need-for-targeted-federal-business-programs-6470b72400/
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S. HRG. 118–385
PROMOTING OPPORTUNITY: THE NEED FOR
TARGETED FEDERAL BUSINESS PROGRAMS
TO ADDRESS ONGOING RACIAL DISCRIMINATION
FIELD HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
MAY 6, 2024
Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
(
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
56–458 WASHINGTON : 2024
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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire, Chair
JONI ERNST, Iowa, Ranking Member
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington MARCO RUBIO, Florida
BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts RAND PAUL, Kentucky
CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware TODD YOUNG, Indiana
MAZIE HIRONO, Hawaii JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada TED BUDD, North Carolina
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
SEAN MOORE, Democratic Staff Director
MEREDITH WEST, Republican Staff Director
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CONTENTS
MAY 6, 2024
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Benjamin L. Cardin, U.S. Senator from Maryland ............................................... 1
Chris Van Hollen, U.S. Senator from Maryland ................................................... 6
WITNESSES
Ms. Natalia Luis, Co-Owner, M. Luis Construction and M. Luis Products,
Silver Spring, MD ................................................................................................ 11
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 13
Ms. Tonya Lawson, President and CEO, Lawson Consulting, Fort Wash-
ington, MD ............................................................................................................ 19
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 21
Ms. Ronnette R. Meyers, President and CEO, JLAN Solutions, Washington,
DC .......................................................................................................................... 30
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 32
Mr. Gary Moore, Senior Business Consultant, Maryland MBDA Business
Center, Baltimore, MD ........................................................................................ 35
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 37
Mr. Andres Bernal, Vice President, MGT Consulting, Cincinnati, OH .............. 40
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 42
Mr. Gary Cunningham, Senior Advisor, The New School, New York, NY ......... 43
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 45
ADDITIONAL LETTERS/STATEMENTS FOR THE RECORD
Joni Ernst, U.S. Senator from Iowa
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 70
Asian Americans Advancing Justice (AAJC)
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 73
Association for Enterprise Opportunity (AEO)
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 92
Capital Region Minority Supplier Development Council (CRMSDC)
Statement dated May 8, 2024 ......................................................................... 96
Doles, Brenda, Healthcare Resolution Services, Inc.
Statement dated May 20, 2024 ....................................................................... 102
Legal Defense Fund
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 104
Minority Business Enterprise Legal Defense and Education Fund, Inc.
(MBELDEF)
Statement dated May 19, 2024 ....................................................................... 120
Minority Business Enterprise Legal Defense and Education Fund
(MBELDEF)
Joint Statement With Eight Other Organizations ......................................... 130
Missions Lenders Working Group
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 135
National Association of Women Business Owners (NAWBO)
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 137
National LGBT Chamber of Commerce (nglcc)
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 141
National Minority Supplier Development Council (NMSDC)
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 143
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IV
Page
Small Business Majority
Statements dated May 6, 2024 ........................................................................ 145
Trans Pacific Communications
Statements dated May 6, 2024 ........................................................................ 152
U.S. Black Chambers, INC
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 155
White, LaTanya, Concept Creative Group, LLC
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 159
Women Impacting Public Policy (WIPP)
Statement dated May 6, 2024 ......................................................................... 166
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PROMOTING OPPORTUNITY: THE NEED FOR
TARGETED FEDERAL BUSINESS PROGRAMS
TO ADDRESS ONGOING RACIAL
DISCRIMINATION
MONDAY, MAY 6, 2024
UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP,
Bowie, MD.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m., at Bowie
State University, Student Center Ballroom, Student Center, 14000
Jericho Park Road, Bowie, MD, Hon. Ben Cardin presiding.
Present: Senators Cardin [presiding] and Van Hollen.
Also Present: Representative Ivey.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARDIN
Senator CARDIN. Good morning, everyone. The Small Business
and Entrepreneurship Committee will come to order. I first want
to thank Senator Shaheen and Senator Ernst, the Chair and Rank-
ing Member of the Small Business Committee for allowing us to
hold this field hearing. Having previously chaired the Small Busi-
ness Committee, it is a great honor for me to chair this event with
Senator Van Hollen and Congressman Ivey and a distinguished
group of witnesses.
It could not be at a better location to hold this hearing, ‘‘Pro-
moting Opportunity: The Need for Targeted Federal Business Pro-
grams to Address Ongoing Racial Discrimination,’’ than here at
Bowie State University. To me this is the perfect place. Under the
leadership of Dr. Breaux, this campus has been a real magnet for
opportunities for small businesses. We recently opened the Wom-
en’s Business Center here at Bowie State University. This the old-
est of our Historically Black Colleges and Universities. We have
the Business Innovation Center located here. This has been a real
active campus for opportunities for underserved communities and
small business opportunities.
Before we get started I want to recognize Dr. Breaux for her ex-
traordinary leadership. She is one of our major players in Wash-
ington. We bring her there frequently. She has testified before our
committees, and she is really a superstar, and we have her right
here at Bowie State University.
Dr. Breaux. [Applause.]
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STATEMENT OF AMINTA BREAUX, Ph.D., PRESIDENT, BOWIE
STATE UNIVERSITY, BOWIE, MARYLAND
Dr. BREAUX. Thank you, Senator, and good morning, everyone.
[Chorus of good mornings.]
Alright, we have coffee on the outside there.
Good morning and welcome to Bowie State University. I am in-
deed Aminta Breaux, the very proud 10th President at BSU, and
I am so honored and pleased to welcome you here today and to
serve as the host site for the U.S. Senate Committee on Small
Business and Entrepreneurship field hearing, and to welcome you,
Senator Van Hollen, Representative Glenn Ivey, and, of course,
welcoming back our esteemed Chair for today, Senator Ben Cardin.
You are no stranger, as none of you are, to Bowie State University,
and we truly appreciate all of your support of higher education and
especially for our HBCUs.
I just want to say a few words before I let you go on with the
program for today. We are preparing for commencement that will
take place on May 24th, and I want to thank you all for your sup-
port throughout this year. For over 150 years, our HBCUs have
opened our doors to all in our society and provided a pathway to
upward social economic mobility for our graduates and for their
families.
And as many of you know, while HBCUs comprise just 3 percent
of the higher ed institutions in the nation, we produce 20 percent
of African American baccalaureate degrees and 25 percent of Afri-
can American graduates in STEM. Additionally, our HBCUs have
been shown to produce about $14.8 billion annually in economic
benefit to our country, and HBCUs generate about 134,000 jobs for
local and regional economies, according to one study.
And then Bowie State University, as I hope you all know by now,
we are growing, we are thriving, as we are raising to excellence,
the name of our strategic plan. But it is also the mantra by which
we live each and every day to serve our students.
As a result of the extraordinary efforts of our faculty, staff, and
student leaders we have recognized great achievements, including
a total growth in enrollment by 2.1 percent and a 25 percent in-
crease in graduate enrollment in 1 year. At the opening of this aca-
demic year, in the fall of 2023, we welcomed 6,400 students from
30 states, 37 foreign countries, and a total number of applications
reached just about 13,000 for just 1,000 seats. Does that get a
round of applause? [Applause.]
U.S. News and World Report ranks Bowie State University as
number 16 among the more than 100 HBCUs in the nation. It also
recognizes BSU as among the most innovative universities and as
a top performer for social mobility. And we are listed among the
nation’s top graduate school programs in nursing, computer
science, education, and public affairs.
And in addition to creating a pipeline of talent for the workforce,
as you just heard from the Senate, we here at Bowie State Univer-
sity champion the spirit of entrepreneurship, recognizing it as a
driving force for economic growth, for strengthening our commu-
nity. It is our vision here at BSU to ensure that every student
graduates with an entrepreneurial mindset, and some of the ways
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we help to inspire that entrepreneurial mindset include integration
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entrepreneurship into the curriculums across the disciplines and of-
fering entrepreneurship as a topic to our freshman year students
as they come in to the university.
We offer a concentration in entrepreneurship and small business
management in the College of Business, and we provide two post-
baccalaureate supplemental programs with stackable credentials.
One is an entrepreneurship 12-credit micro-credential and an 18-
credit hour entrepreneurship certificate. And as you came into the
campus, I hope you noticed the Entrepreneurship Living Learning
Community that bridges the learning environments from the class-
room to the residence halls, inspiring students to understand that
learning happens everywhere. That Entrepreneurship Living
Learning Community is home to over 500 students, and on any
given day they can get up and see ideation to creation in their
products and businesses. But most importantly again, we are help-
ing to inspire them to have an entrepreneurial mindset to navigate
this rapidly changing world.
I want to again thank Senator Cardin and Senator Van Hollen
for your support when you were here not too long ago for the con-
gressionally directed spending that brought out that center of ex-
cellence, and allowing for Bowie State University to lead the way
for other HBCUs to develop 8 (a) government contracting pro-
grams. So can you please give the Senators a round of applause.
[Applause.]
There are many more items to highlight, and the Senators know
this president can go on for a while. But I know you have an agen-
da. Let me welcome the Committee, welcome all of our elected offi-
cials. I would like to acknowledge the mayor of Bowie, Mayor Tim
Adams. Would you give him a round of applause please. [Ap-
plause.]
And finally, I invite you to see what I see here every day as we
are racing to excellence, the great excellence among our faculty,
staff, and students here at BSU. I know the weather is not as we
had hoped, but nonetheless I hope you get out across the campus.
It is a 300-acre campus here in Prince George’s County, and a gem
in Prince George’s County.
Once again, welcome. I am Aminta Breaux, the very proud 10th
president of Bowie State University, the oldest HBCU in the state
of Maryland. Thank you. [Applause.]
Senator CARDIN. I think you all can see why we are so proud of
Dr. Breaux, and thank you for the arrangement for this field hear-
ing. It could not be at a better location, and we thank you for your
hospitality.
You acknowledged the mayor of Bowie, Mayor Tim Adams. Tim,
would you like to say a word? We want to be welcomed by you, so
it would be nice.
STATEMENT OF TIM ADAMS, MAYOR OF BOWIE, MARYLAND
Mr. ADAMS. Thank you. I would simply like to quickly say thank
you to Dr. Breaux. It is always a pleasure to be here on the campus
of Bowie State University, as she said a number of times, the old-
est HBCU in the state of Maryland. I would like to thank Con-
gressman Ivey, Senator Van Hollen, and Senator Cardin, who is
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the Chair today.
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I would like to just say that I want to say thank you, because
as a resident of the state of Maryland I have closely followed your
work and have been consistently impressed by your commitment to
public service. You know, your tireless efforts in advocating for our
community, needs, and championing important causes such as
small businesses have not gone unnoticed. Your leadership and un-
wavering dedication to the betterment of our society are truly in-
spiring.
I would like to particularly express my appreciation for your
work on truly supporting small businesses and advocating for
them. Your commitment to small businesses has made a significant
difference in the lives of countless individuals, including myself.
Your ability to effectively communicate with constituents and listen
to their concerns is commendable. It is clear that you genuinely
care about the issues that affect our community, and your respon-
siveness and accessibility as a public servant have been truly re-
markable.
Once again, I want to extend my deepest gratitude for your serv-
ice and for representing our community with honor and integrity.
Your commitment to public service sets a shining example for the
future leaders and inspires me to be more engaged in our democ-
racy.
Thank you, Senator Cardin, for your outstanding service to our
community. I wish you continued success in all your future endeav-
ors.
Senator CARDIN. Thank you. I appreciate it. [Applause.]
I also wanted to acknowledge the real workhorses that are here,
our staff that really put together this hearing and worked with us
on these small business issues, Sean Moore, who is the Staff Direc-
tor of the Small Business and Entrepreneurship Committee;
Shivani Pampati, who is my key person for this particular hearing;
and Steve Chang. We thank the entire staff of the Small Business
Committee for what they have done.
We are also joined by Steve Umberger and Larry Webb, who are
the two directors of the offices, the regions that include the state
of Maryland, so we thank you both for being with us today. And
I want to acknowledge Terrance is here, representing Congressman
Hoyer, who has been a great champion of small businesses and of
course represents parts of Prince George’s County, as well.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARDIN
Senator CARDIN. This is the right venue for this hearing. I want
to take a moment to recognize that the topic we are discussing
today is not an easy one. Racial discrimination has plagued our
country since its inception. Let me just tell my colleagues, last
night I saw the world premier of ‘‘Ain’t No Back to a Merry-Go-
Round,’’ which is the story of the integration of Glen Echo Park,
which is, of course, in our community. I recommend the movie to
all of you. It was a real testament to the strength of a community
to fight for integration in 1960. Those struggles are still continuing
today. So I think it just motivated me more for why we are holding
this hearing today.
Racial discrimination has plagued our nation since its inception,
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and unfortunately we have not been able to truly reckon with our
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past in a way that completely breaks down the historical barriers
that racial discrimination has created.
I want to particularly thank our small business owners with us
today. This is not an easy task, and I applaud your bravery and
commitment to discussing the facts that racial discrimination ex-
ists today, and that it directly impacts your ability to operate and
grow you business. Not all business owners were as brave as you.
Fear in discussing this topic is unfortunately a common sentiment
and why this hearing is so critical.
So thank you again to the business owners here today for your
willingness to tell the story in an attempt to protect and highlight
the importance of targeted Federal programs, like the Small Busi-
ness Administration’s 8(a) program and the Minority Business De-
velopment Agency.
Attacks on programs across the Federal Government that level
the playing field for minority communities are affecting every facet
of our society, from education to small business. In the small busi-
ness space we are witnessing a widespread and coordinated legal
attack against public and private programs that aim to uplift mi-
nority small business owners and remedy disparities caused by ra-
cial discrimination. These programs provide tailored support for
communities of color, to address the impact of racial discrimination
that they continue to face. To say that I am disappointed by these
attacks and court decisions would be a grave understatement.
I am trained by Parren James Mitchell, the first Black congress-
man we had in the state of Maryland. He was the former Chair of
the Small Business Committee and used that opportunity to ex-
pand opportunity, providing the first set-asides for minority small
businesses. He was my congressman when he was first elected to
Congress, and he helped me a great deal when I was elected to
Congress in 1987.
The Small Business Administration’s 8(a) business development
program was codified in the 1970s. It is a 9-year program that pro-
vides socially and economically disadvantaged small businesses
with training, technical assistance, and contracting opportunities.
This program has helped contractors from minority and under-
served communities grow successful and sustainable businesses.
Given the most recent lawsuits against this program, 8(a) appli-
cants must now submit to the Federal Government explicit in-
stances of intentional discrimination on the basis of their race in
order to qualify for the program. This is not only invasive, but in-
credibly time consuming and costly for these business owners.
As our witnesses will attest, countless studies and other research
have proven time and time again that disparities exist in minority
business formations and ownership. Research has also dem-
onstrated that systemic discrimination is the primary factor behind
those disparities. Small business owners should be focusing on
building their businesses and getting the support they need. In-
stead, minority applicants to the 8(a) program must once again do
something that is all too familiar to them—prove themselves above
and beyond what is normally expected.
Additional obstacles like this are stark reminders of the histor-
ical barrier we have rightly done away with, such as poll taxes and
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literacy tests, redlining, and so much more. These policies were
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once considered by some to be reasonable standards, but have pro-
found intentional negative impacts on Black and brown commu-
nities.
As Congress, we must do more. We must ensure the 8(a) pro-
gram is not further stripped down through these legal attacks and
work to not only build it back to what it was once, but also to im-
prove it.
Most recently, the Minority Business Development Agency’s busi-
ness centers were challenged in the court. After more than 50 years
in existence through executive order, I was proud to codify, on a
bipartisan basis, the only agency explicitly dedicated to minorities
in the Federal Government. My partner in this effort was Con-
gressman Mfume in the House. Opponents of the agency argued
that they agency’s use of race in defining socially and economically
disadvantaged was somehow unfair or unjustified. To put an in-
junction on business services that uniquely tailor to the needs of
minority individuals is unconscionable.
These legal attacks threaten to reverse decades of progressive
policies created to help address the injustice and discrimination
that persists in our society and within the Federal Government.
Without targeted Federal programs, we leave a large swath of our
society behind, only strengthening historical barriers. It is impor-
tant that we, as a country, recognize that when we exclude parts
of our society we are actively undermining the social, political, and
economic potential of our country.
I am honored to be holding this hearing at Maryland’s oldest
HBCU, focusing on how targeted Federal programs address the im-
pact of racial discrimination and promote opportunity for minority
communities.
We have an incredible group of witnesses that will join us in this
discussion, but first, if I might, I am going to allow my two col-
leagues to make opening comments. I am pleased that both are
joining me. For those, I am sure you know, Senator Van Hollen is
not only a champion for small businesses, he chairs the Appropria-
tions Subcommittee of the Small Business Administration. I think
that is why we have our two regional directors that are here today.
Senator Van Hollen is here to challenge their budget.
Senator Van Hollen.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR VAN HOLLEN
Senator VAN HOLLEN. Well thank you, Senator Cardin, and I
want to start where Senator Cardin did, by thanking you, Dr.
Breaux, and Bowie State University not only for hosting us today
but for your amazing leadership. So it is great to be back on the
campus of Maryland’s oldest HBCU, and again, thank you.
Mayor Adams, thank you, as always, for the warm welcome to
Bowie, and it was great that Senator Cardin and I were able to join
you recently to provide some additional Federal funding to support
the city of Bowie.
It is wonderful to be here with my colleague from the House,
Glenn Ivey. We work very closely together on all issues, including
small business issues and minority-owned business issues.
And I do just want to give a special word of thanks to my friend
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and colleague, Maryland’s senior Senator, Ben Cardin. I think all
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of you know that he has announced that he is not running for re-
election. But as you can see what is happening today he has not
slowed down one bit. And throughout his entire career in public
service, he has always been a champion for small businesses and
minority-owned businesses. That has been his record, that is who
he is, and that is why today’s hearing is so important. He has
served for many years as the Chair of the Small Business Adminis-
tration, the authorizing committee for small businesses, and he, of
course, continues to serve on that committee. And like all of you
here, we recognize that there is an ongoing threat and attack on
the basic laws that provide for minority small businesses in re-
sponse to historic discrimination. So thank you to Ben Cardin for
being here. [Applause.]
Let me also join Senator Cardin in welcoming all of our wit-
nesses today. Thank you for coming here to provide your insights
on the unique challenges you have faced as small business owners.
Thank you for coming here to share your expertise on the signifi-
cance of programs like the Minority Business Development Agency
and the SBA 8(a) program, and how they can help us, and continue
to help us create a fairer, competitive environment for small busi-
ness owners and for our economy.
Minority business owners continue to face long-standing systemic
barriers in both the private and public sectors, even after decades
of building programs to try to remedy this. Lack of access to cap-
ital, networks, and contracts remain ongoing barriers to success for
many of these businesses. Yet small business owners, like all of
you who have joined us today and so many across Maryland and
the United States have pushed forward with resilience, fighting to
establish yourselves in a whole variety of business sectors, and
done so successfully. Entrepreneurs like yourselves have been
swimming upstream to contribute to this economy through the
work you do.
For centuries, governments at various levels have enacted poli-
cies and practices that systematically disadvantage minority entre-
preneurs, from discriminatory landing programs. Like the redlining
Senator Cardin mentioned, to zoning laws that stifled the growth
of minority-owned businesses, the hand of government has often
been used to reinforce existing inequalities rather than to dis-
mantle them.
This discrimination has had a profound impact on the ability of
minority small business owners to thrive. Denied access to capital,
resources, and opportunities, many talented entrepreneurs have
been unable to realize their full potential. They have faced higher
hurdles in obtaining loans, accessing contracts, and navigating reg-
ulatory environments, all because of the color of their skin or their
ethnic background.
Amidst this landscape there have been beacons of hope, pro-
grams like the Small Business Administration’s 8 (a) program, and
the Minority Business Development Agency. Thank you, Senator
Cardin, for codifying that once and for all in law. Those programs,
among others, have helped break down the barriers that we know
exist. By providing access to capital, technical assistance, and con-
tracting opportunities, these initiatives have empowered minority
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entrepreneurs to overcome the obstacles stacked against them.
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8
The 8 (a) program, in particular, has been instrumental in lev-
eling the playing field for minority-owned businesses. By offering
set-aside contracts and subcontracting opportunities to small busi-
nesses owned by individuals who historically have been socially
and economically disadvantaged, the program has opened doors of
opportunity that were previously shut. It has helped minority en-
trepreneurs gain a foothold in the industries where they were once
excluded, paving the way for greater economic inclusion and pros-
perity.
Similarly, the Minority Business Development Agency has been
a life line for minority entrepreneurs seeking guidance and sup-
port. Through its network of business centers across the country,
the agency provides technical assistance, access to markets, and
strategic advice to help minority-owned businesses grow and thrive.
I look forward to continuing to work with Senator Cardin in this
capacity on the Small Business Committee. As Senator Cardin
mentioned, I chair the Subcommittee of the Appropriations Com-
mittee that funds the Small Business Administration, as well as
the CDFI programs. They are such an important source of capital.
I look forward to working with all of you as we confront the attacks
that have been made and that are ongoing to these very, very im-
portant programs.
We have come a long way, but this is not the time to dismantle
the programs that have been successful at breaking down those
barriers and are needed today because those barriers remain in
place.
Thank you all for being part of this discussion. Senator Cardin,
again, thank you for convening this hearing.
Senator CARDIN. Thank you, Senator Van Hollen.
Our expert in the House of Representatives on the impacts of the
court cases on the 8 (a) program and the Minority Business Devel-
opment Agency is Glenn Ivey. He called me shortly after the court
decision as to what we could do to try to remedy the situation. We
are very fortunate to have his expertise in the House of Represent-
atives as we look for ways to deal with the realities and impact of
these court decisions, to make sure that we keep the tools available
to help minority small businesses.
Congressman Ivey.
STATEMENT OF CONGRESSMAN IVEY
Mr. IVEY. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate that. And I do want
to join in the chorus of, you know, I guess bemoaning a bit your
forthcoming retirement.
Senator CARDIN. I am still here, guys. [Laughter.]
I know you all have seen a lot of ads on television, so you know
there is an open spot.
Mr. IVEY. You know, when Michael Jordan retired they did a
tour, essentially, so he would go play in different cities. I remember
in one city they got him a rocking chair. So if you get a rocking
chair, don’t be surprised. We do want to make sure you are fully
recognized for the outstanding work that you have done.
And Chris, it is great working with you on these issues, and so
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many others. You know, it is fantastic to come in. I have only been
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9
in Congress for a year and change, but to join a team with this cal-
iber of leadership and skill is a real honor.
And I do want to thank Bowie State. You know, you did a great
job. The leadership you provided—I don’t think you have been here
so long, but you have really made a great impact already, and mak-
ing sure that the university continues to move in the right direc-
tion.
And to Tim Adams, yes, he is the mayor of Bowie, but he is also
a successful entrepreneur, in fact, maybe one of the most successful
minority entrepreneurs in the country. And when Jolene Ivey, the
chair of the County Council, and I did a joint hearing on this, Tim
was one of the great witnesses on that proceeding that did a great
job. So I am looking forward to hearing from the panel.
I just want to say a couple of things quickly, though. First of all,
I see so many friends in the audience from the fights over the
years. I first got into this in 1987, when I first came to the Hill.
I think you had just gotten there. In fact, Jolene was working for
you in 1987. And on the Small Business Committee, Congressman
Conyers was on it. Congressman Mfume was on it, as well.
And so I remember that year. President Reagan had decided to
attack the 8 (a) program, and he essentially tried to dismantle it.
Wedtech was the case that they used as sort of the point of attack.
And at the same time, they were trying to block effort, Congress-
man Mfume. Congressman Parren Mitchell had just left the Small
Business Committee, but his leadership continued. In fact, I see
the individuals from Minority Business Enterprise Legal Defense
Fund, which he founded when he left. Talk about not missing a
beat. He left Congress and he started MBELDEF like almost im-
mediately.
But we fought those fights then, and we were relatively success-
ful. We were able to preserve the 8 (a) program. In fact, there were
some changes that I thought, some were beneficial, some were
maybe less so. But it stayed, and it continued to move forward
roughly in the form that it had.
And the MBDA bill, as Senator Cardin mentioned, well, that took
a little while to get done, but it did get done. What was that, 2
years ago, I think it was, something like that? Huge achievement
over a long term to make that happen. So a lot of that push came
from Maryland. We have been the epicenter for these policy fights,
in some respects, and I think that is going to continue, as you can
see today.
But it is particularly heartbreaking then to look back on that his-
tory, and as soon as I get to Congress, and I hope it is not a causa-
tion or a correlation thing, but then we get the courts attacking
these programs that we spent all these years building up and
using. And it is especially problematic because it is not like these
programs, like people were really getting over before they started
attacking them. Yes, they were helpful. Yes, they were beneficial.
But there were still challenges in the programs as they existed be-
fore these court cases, so we know we have got a long way to go,
because we had a long way to go before these court cases even
came down.
And then when Ultima came down last summer, I was heart-
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broken, really, because it really went to the heart of a lot of the
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things we had been fighting so hard to get done. And it looked like,
unfortunately, a sign of things to come because they are sort of
gathering forces on the other side to continue these court attacks,
and they are not stopping. We just had another one come through
just the other day that is going to be kind of pushing this envelope
along the wrong direction, in my view.
So, you know, I think it is critical for us to do a couple of things,
and one is I am looking forward to hearing from you all. I know
you can’t learn when you are talking, so I am going to stop talking
in a second.
But I do want to lay this out real quick, though, because I think
it is important for us to think about recognizing the challenges that
are there with respect to these court cases, recognizing some of the
challenges that were growing for other reasons. For example, the
concentration and consolidation of a lot of these contracts have
made it harder for small businesses, in general, to get a chance to
even compete for these, much less small minority businesses to
compete, and have all the challenges that Ben and Chris laid out
with respect to capital and credit and the like. So I think we have
to figure out what to do with that.
Also, when we come back to this at the end, I think the question
of where do we go from here I think is a big one. I think we have
got some very good arguments we can make as far as why these
programs should stay in place and why they need to continue to
expand. On, in particular, from my perspective, the lessons we
should have learned from the supply chain issues coming out of
COVID, which is to the extent we can have businesses here in the
United States that are doing these services as opposed to overseas,
that is a great thing. If we can have minority businesses who are
doing them here in the United States, and utilizing people who are
not so much involved in the economic growth of the United States,
that is even better piece.
And I think it is also critical for us to make sure that we expand
the opportunities available so the American Dream, as we have
known it—and we saw it flourishing before it got sort of cut off at
the knees when some of these court cases came in.
So I do want to make sure that before we end the day we talk
a little bit about things that we can do. The Congressional Black
Caucus, you know, I appreciate Ben suggesting my role in that
with respect to figuring out how to approach the White House,
what to do with the courts, what to do with the Department of Jus-
tice, things that we can do to take on these challenges. And I think
it is critical for us to make sure we do those things now rather
than later.
Because the Biden administration has trillions of dollars coming
out from a Federal contracting standpoint. This is the worst pos-
sible moment for us to get cut off from the ability to compete fully
for those government contracts. It is generational wealth coming
out. Some of these contracts, like some of the bridges and tunnels
that you all have been hearing about on the news, those can turn
businesses around and turn them into not only just small minority
businesses but potentially primes and general contracts down the
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road.
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11
So it is critical for us to fight this fight, keep it moving in the
right direction, and I appreciate the leadership that you all have
provided in this. And with that I will yield back, and I look forward
to your testimony, and thank all of you all for coming today.
Senator CARDIN. Congressman Ivey, thank you for those com-
ments. Your point is just so well taken. We need to engage all of
the talent we have in our community for the full strength of Amer-
ica. There is no question about that. But it also provides a way of
dealing with the gaps that we have in our community, the wealth
gap. Small business entrepreneur opportunities for underserved
communities allow us to be able to build some wealth equities in
America. So I appreciate you mentioning both of those points.
I will now turn to our witnesses. Your full statements will be
made part of the record without any objections, since there is no
one here to object. [Laughter.]
I think we are safe on that. And you can proceed as you wish.
In the committee room we have a 5-minute time. I don’t see any
timer here, so you are going to probably be relieved from that. But
I would ask that you try to summarize in about 5 minutes to give
us a chance to be able to have a discussion here.
I will introduce you as you speak, since there are six of you. It
might just be easier to introduce you one at a time as you speak.
We will start with Ms. Natalia Luis, who is the CEO of M. Luis
Construction and M. Luis Products. She has 30 years of experience
operating her own businesses and guiding other businesses on their
growth. Her story is a testament to perseverance and resilience.
She is passionate about making an impact in her community, and
we are proud to have her business in Maryland.
You may proceed.
STATEMENT OF NATALIA LUIS, CO-OWNER, M. LUIS
CONSTRUCTION AND M. LUIS PRODUCTS, SILVER SPRING, MD
Ms. LUIS. Thank you, Senator. My name is Natalia Luis. Along
with my sister, who is here with me today, I own and operate M.
Luis Construction and M. Luis Products, companies based in Mary-
land that specialize in asphalt manufacturing, asphalt paving, con-
crete construction, and general contracting. I am here today be-
cause the programs that correct an even small amount of the dis-
crimination that minorities and women face in business are essen-
tial to our survival and success.
My family has faced devastating discrimination from the begin-
ning. Usually the discrimination is worse as we expand the busi-
ness, challenging white male dominance in our construction indus-
try. There have been all too many instances to recount, but I will
give you a few examples.
Some of my competition has gone through the extreme of tapping
my phones or posted big, tough guys outside of our business oper-
ations in an effort to intimidate us and our employees. We are
proud that we have a workforce that looks like our community, but
these bullies went to the extent of filming our employees and then
posted a video on social media with the title, ‘‘Are these the type
of people we want working in America?’’
They even tried to get the Federal Government to put us out of
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business. Normally a business like ours will get one or two labor
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audits every few years. We were hit with half a dozen in one year,
all due to our competitors making false claims against us, that is
that we were hiring illegal aliens. All the audits showed was that,
on average, we were not only paying contractually required wages,
but we were providing higher wages and better benefits to our mul-
tiracial, multiethnic, e-verified workforce.
Yet another instance was when we were seeking to work in one
of our counties. We were in a large meeting with 15 to 20 high
ranking officials when midway through the Director of Public
Works and Transportation looked at us and said, referring to the
other Portuguese-owned companies working in the county, ‘‘Why
don’t you and your cousins get together and figure out your bid be-
cause it seems like you don’t know how to do math.’’ This casual
racial belittlement in a public forum directly undermines our busi-
ness solely based on our minority status.
We have brought on board members and numerous outstanding
professionals, many of whom happen to be white males. After about
18 months with us, one of them confided in my sister and I that
while he was initially skeptical, he was astonished by the racial
and gender biases we faced. His experience with our minority-run
business brought challenges he had never faced before in his ca-
reer.
Senators and Representative, the bottom line is this: discrimina-
tion against minority and women business owners is as despicable
as it is pervasive. As I have detailed in my testimony, discrimina-
tion and the barriers it imposes affect the ability of our business
to operate and receive contracting opportunities. We can and we
will do our part to create a prosperous economy for all of us, but
we need you to protect the MBE, WBE, DBE programs for victims
of systemic discrimination and institutional racism. That is minori-
ties, women, veterans, people with disabilities. We are all counting
on you. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Luis follows:]
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Senator CARDIN. Well, thank you very much for your testimony.
[Applause.]
Our next witness is Ms. Tonya Lawson, who is the President and
CEO of Lawson Consulting. Her company works on innovative
workplace solutions through automation and AI. She has over 20
years of experience working for Federal contractors and operating
her own small business.
Ms. Lawson.
STATEMENT OF TONYA LAWSON, PRESIDENT AND CEO,
LAWSON CONSULTING, FORT WASHINGTON, MD
Ms. LAWSON. Senator Cardin, Senator Van Hollen, Representa-
tive Ivey, esteemed guests, thank you for inviting me to testify
today. My name is Tonya Lawson, and I own Lawson Consulting.
I am honored to be here to address race discrimination against mi-
nority-owned businesses as a matter of paramount importance to
minority entrepreneurs. I bring a perspective rooted in over two
decades of experience in the Federal Government and private sec-
tor contracting. I am also a representative of Black American small
business community that has faced discriminatory challenges for
centuries and continues to encounter discrimination that limits our
ability to grow and prosper. I would like to provide just a few ex-
amples.
A few years ago, I entered a partnership with a large majority-
owned government contractor to collaborate on Federal contract
with a small business/MBE requirement. Our team successfully se-
cured the contract. Unfortunately, after 2 years of collaboration it
became evident to me that this partnership would not foster my
company’s success or align with my core values. There were indica-
tions of discriminatory practices inside the larger company. Em-
ployees spoke openly about instances of discrimination against
Black employees, including disparities in promotion rates,
mentorship opportunities, and customer-facing roles. There was a
pervasive sense among Black employees that they needed to exceed
expectations significantly to advance, while white colleagues were
systematically favored.
This year, at a recent small business development event, where
networking plays a crucial role in fostering opportunities, I encoun-
tered a troubling instance of discrimination that highlights ongoing
challenges faced by Black-owned businesses. As I awaited in turn
in line to speak with a lead IT procurement representative, he
abruptly turned away when it was my turn to talk to me, opting
instead to converse with two white women who were not even in
line. Simultaneously, he held up his index finger at me, in a
dismissive gesture, indicating that I should wait.
The procurement representative initially was dismissive, but
after my persistence to engage him in conversation he eventually
was very impressed with my company’s capabilities and core com-
petencies, which focuses on process automation and artificial intel-
ligence.
I am not alone in experiencing situations like this. Discrimina-
tion is pervasive, and it is effect are long lasting. It is a reminder
of the barriers that we Black Americans so very often face in our
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businesses. The SBA 8 (a) and MBDA programs have been a life-
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20
line for countless minority small businesses like mine, providing
training, technical assistance, and access to Federal contracting op-
portunities.
Racism, discrimination, and gender discrimination still exist, es-
pecially for Black American business owners. Despite centuries
passing since era of slavery, the remnants of racial inequality re-
main in our society. Supporting Black American businesses is not
just about economic empowerment. It is about fostering a more in-
clusive and just society where everyone has a fair chance at pur-
suing the American dream. Thank you. [Applause.]
[The prepared statement of Ms. Lawson follows:]
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30
Senator CARDIN. Ms. Lawson, thank you for your comments also.
These are testimonies that need to be heard and documented, so
we appreciate it very, very much.
I will now go to Ms. Ronnette Meyers. Ms. Meyers is the Presi-
dent and CEO of JLAN Solutions. JLAN Solutions provides man-
agement and training services to Federal, state, and local govern-
ment agencies, and is a certified 8 (a) company. She has been pub-
licly recognized on multiple occasions, including receiving the
Biden-Harris Lifetime Achievement Award. Ms. Meyers also pre-
viously had a distinguished career in the Federal Government.
We look forward to hearing from you.
STATEMENT OF RONNETTE R. MEYERS, PRESIDENT AND CEO,
JLAN SOLUTIONS, WASHINGTON, D.C.
Ms. MEYERS. Good morning. Thank you so much. Thank you,
Senator Van Hollen, Senator Cardin, and Representative Ivey.
Thank you all. My name is Ronnette Meyers. I am the President
and CEO of JLAN Solutions.
My journey as an entrepreneur in government contracting, par-
ticularly within the 8 (a) program, has been profoundly shaped by
confronting and overcoming both overt and subtle discrimination
and adversity. This narrative is not just about my professional
growth but also about an expose of the persistent barrier that mi-
norities and women entrepreneurs frequently encounter, as well as
how these barriers directly affect my business operations.
Before launching my business, my journey as a technical spe-
cialist within the Federal Government was married by discrimina-
tion from the outset. Early on, I faced questions from my boss that
challenged not just my professional presence but also my racial and
gender identity. ‘‘Why are you here? Why did they send you?’’ he
asked.
Throughout my tenure I was isolated and marginalized. That is
how I felt. The toxic environment became unsustainable, prompting
me to seek new opportunities and embark on a journey of self-em-
ployment and entrepreneurship.
Transitioning to a government contractor role in Washington,
D.C., I found a workplace that valued my skills, where I felt like
a genuine sense of belonging, which gave me the inspiration to
start my own company, JLAN Solutions, in 2010, and eventually,
joining the 8 (a) program in 2018, a move that was fueled by ambi-
tion and resilience.
Yet this new beginning was quickly tempered by the harsh reali-
ties of entrepreneurship in a space where resources were unevenly
distributed, and support for minority-owned small businesses like
mine was minimal. My early partnerships with the majority-owned
businesses were promising but ultimately disappointing. These col-
laborations, which I hoped would bolster my business’ standing and
visibility, instead left me feeling exploited and sidelined.
The first partnership I formed to secure an opportunity with a
Federal agency disintegrated when the company’s leadership unex-
pectedly withdrew the partnership due to my company being a mi-
nority small business. A professional rejection that felt personal
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and left me devastated. It was not just a setback. It was a deeply
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31
personal blow that left me questioning my worth and my place in
this industry.
The subsequent challenge came when another majority-owned
business protested our successful contract bid, jeopardizing JLAN’s
financial stability and future growth. An employee from this com-
pany explicitly warned me about significant racial bias in the com-
pany, leading all of the minority-owned businesses to unite and ad-
dress the situation through a collective letter. This protest high-
lighted the systematic challenges minority businesses encounter,
from financial and structure barriers to discriminatory practices
that hinder their success.
Recently, at a networking event in Virginia, I was one of a few
Black women among predominantly white male peers. During the
networking session it was clear to me and the other Black women
that we were being dismissed by our peers. Our treatment was not
a reflection of capabilities but of systematic biases, prejudices that
continue to pervade our society.
The lessons of this journey are clear. While these experiences
have undoubtedly strengthened my resolve, I cannot overlook the
tangible losses that have been inflicted upon me and my family.
They have taken away real opportunities, both financial and emo-
tional.
Racial discrimination and the barriers it has imposed has often
hindered my business operations and ability to receive contracting
opportunities. Throughout these experiences, the role of the 8 (a)
program has been twofold. It has been a crucial lifeline, providing
access to opportunity otherwise out of reach, and it has been a con-
stant reminder of the disparities that persist in the business world.
Thank you. [Applause.]
[The prepared statement of Ms. Meyers follows:]
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35
Senator CARDIN. Thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Gary Moore is the Senior Business Consultant with the
Maryland MBDA Business Center. He has a background in sales,
construction, and government, and is an entrepreneur himself. He
has provided guidance and consultation to countless Maryland-
based businesses, helping connect them to opportunities in net-
working, capital access, and more.
Mr. Moore.
STATEMENT OF GARY MOORE, SENIOR BUSINESS CONSULT-
ANT, MARYLAND MBDA BUSINESS CENTER, BALTIMORE, MD
Mr. MOORE. Thank you. Good morning, Senator Cardin, Senator
Van Hollen, and Representative Ivey. Thank you for inviting me to
testify today.
My name is Gary Moore. I am the Senior Business Development
Specialist for the Maryland Minority Business Development Agency
under the U.S. Department of Commerce. I have been with the
Maryland MBDA Business Center for over 7 years. My primary re-
sponsibility is to keep in alignment with MBDA’s mission, which is
to foster growth and global competitiveness of minority business
enterprises.
In my role as a Senior Business Development Specialist for the
MBDA I help clients gain access to networks, information, and re-
sources, including programs like the SBA’s 8 (a) business develop-
ment program. I work with government agencies, institutions, and
privately held corporations on behalf of center clients, advocating
for access to capital, procurement opportunities, and providing
them with overall strategic business consulting. Our center has di-
rectly serviced over 1,000 minority businesses, where I have heard
countless stories of disparities in minority participation in private,
state, and local procurement opportunities.
One of my MBE clients bid on a non-MBE project and was the
lowest and most capable bidder. On any large project—this project
was for over $3 million—you must present your qualifications, fi-
nancials for bonding, references, and your capacity to do the work
before the bid so that all that is left to do while conducting a low-
bid meeting is verification of each line item.
When the client arrived at the meeting he knew the minute he
walked in, by the prime’s startled looks and subsequent questions,
they were not expecting a person of color. Instead of conducting a
normal low-bid meeting the questions shifted from the bid require-
ments to him as an individual. Statements were made such as,
‘‘You are very articulate,’’ and questions were asked such as, ‘‘How
did you grow your business to have a company in double-digit mil-
lions of revenue?’’ These are not statements and questions posed to
Caucasian business owners I speak with.
Though my client was highly qualified to perform the work, had
full bonding capacity of $3 million, and was the lowest bidder, it
was given to someone else who was of Caucasian descent.
Focusing on our client as an individual and not the company’s
success and ability to perform the work is blatant discrimination.
If an MBE is the most capable and is the lowest bidder, the MBE
is in a good position to win the award when MBE participation is
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required. This is not the case when MBE goals are not present or
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when primes are not held accountable to the goals. Before becom-
ing certified, our client had difficulty getting work with prime con-
tractors. Becoming certified has helped open doors for him in cases
where MBE utilization requirements are in place.
Our clients believe that the impact of Nuziard v. MBDA ruling
will hurt the same programs that have helped their businesses
grow, despite the ongoing discrimination faced in obtaining capital
and procurement opportunities. Our clients have expressed they
don’t need to have more of an opportunity than anyone else, just
the ability to compete on a level playing field.
These stories reflect the wider discrimination and barriers that
minority business owners face daily as it relates to denying MBE’s
access to capital, procurement opportunities, networks and re-
sources, as well as adverse treatment by Caucasian prime contrac-
tors, both in private and public sectors.
I want to say that one of my clients’ sentiments was this, that
this is not in the spirit of America, where if you work hard and are
in compliance with laws you can accomplish anything that you
want and succeed. Thank you. [Applause.]
[The prepared statement of Mr. Moore follows:]
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40
Senator CARDIN. Thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Andres Bernal is the Vice President of MGT Consulting
Group. He is a legal and quantitative researcher. His company is
currently conducting a disparity study for Maryland. Mr. Bernal
has extensive experience researching barriers and racial discrimi-
nation in Federal contracting space for minority-owned businesses.
STATEMENT OF ANDRES BERNAL, VICE PRESIDENT, MGT
CONSULTING, CINCINNATI, OH
Mr. BERNAL. Thank you, sir. Good morning. Thank you Con-
gressman Ivey, Senator Van Hollen, Senator Cardin for having me
here today.
My name is Andres Bernal, and I am the Vice President of MGT.
We are a nationally recognized public sector consulting firm. Since
1975, MGT has provided strategic, operational, and technological
solutions to government and education agencies in all 50 states.
I have nearly 20 years of direct disparity, consulting, quan-
titative, and qualitative experience analyzing all aspects of public
agency disparity research. In that time, I have authored or co-au-
thored more than 100 reports of findings of whether or not race,
ethnicity, and gender affects a person’s ability to do business in a
marketplace.
I have been asked to offer a few observations about historical
trends that have emerged regarding how minority-owned busi-
nesses are utilized by public entities.
Findings from hundreds of disparity studies conducted by MGT
and across the industry underscore a continuing opportunity for
targeted supplier diversity programs to address underutilization of
minority-owned businesses. Almost universally, the results from
disparity research continue to show that MBEs are substantially
underutilized, and that the markets where these MBEs are doing
business are under-realizing their opportunity to expand their en-
trepreneurial sector of their economies and to broaden economic
participation among MBEs.
When it comes to analyzing public contracting data, it is case law
and industry standard to use what the law refers to as a ‘‘disparity
index’’ to determine, statistically, if the race of business ownership
influences a business’s likelihood of availing itself of government
contracting opportunities. This index calculates how much public
entities utilize minority-owned businesses related to the avail-
ability of qualified MBEs in a given market area.
Looking at procurement data across the nation, what we see
throughout many jurisdictions, historically, is that, despite some
progress, MBEs are substantially underutilized across all goods
and services categories, such as construction, professional services,
and goods. In those rare instances in which there is parity in MBE
utilization or even overutilization of MBEs, what we see is a con-
centration among several companies, rather than an indication that
government agencies are consistently and broadly drawing upon
the local pool of qualified MBEs.
Furthermore, when we look at the private sector business activ-
ity and dynamics, the following observations are typically seen.
MBEs earn significantly less revenue than their majority-owned
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41
tics such as level of experience, education, and number of employ-
ees.
The same dynamic we see when we are looking at the likelihood
of MBEs to be self-employed compared to their majority counter-
parts. Studies after studies are showing the same thing that race,
ethnicity, and gender impacts a person’s ability to conduct busi-
ness.
The culmination of my research including qualitative studies,
disparity studies, regression analyses, continue to support the con-
clusion that public agencies across the nation have a significant op-
portunity to expand utilization of MBEs, thereby strengthening
their local economies and their communities through broader utili-
zation of qualified minority-owned businesses. Thank you. [Ap-
plause.]
[The prepared statement of Mr. Bernal follows:]
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43
Senator CARDIN. Thank you for your comments.
Gary Cunningham is the Senior Advisor with the Institute on
Race, Power, and Political Economy at The New School. Mr.
Cunningham works at the intersection of racial equity and entre-
preneurship. He has vast experience providing business consulta-
tion to minority business owners as well as advocating for minor-
ity-owned businesses.
His former experience includes being the former President of
Prosperity Now and the CEO of Minnesota MBDA Business Cen-
ter.
Mr. Cunningham.
STATEMENT OF GARY CUNNINGHAM, SENIOR ADVISOR, THE
NEW SCHOOL, NEW YORK, NY
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Van Hol-
len, and Congressman Ivey. I appreciate being here today.
One, I just want to thank you for holding this hearing at this
critical juncture in our history as Americans.
I sit here today on the shoulders of many proud ancestors, in-
cluding the Black Creek Freedmen from Muskogee, Oklahoma, that
were in part responsible for creating Black Wall Street. Many of
you might have heard of Black Wall Street. It sits as a pinnacle
of what can be achieved by African Americans in this country, and
it was destroyed in 1921, through a race riot that happened there
many years ago. And I would argue that we still have similar con-
ditions today, but may not be as vitriol as they were in 1921, but
they exist.
We are at a critical juncture in our nation’s history where many
of our hard-fought gains to create a more perfect union, where ev-
eryone, no matter who they are, no matter what their background,
can fully participate in the American Dream.
These issues are under assault and continuously, court case after
court case, and we cannot turn back the hands of time in this coun-
try. The American promise or the American contract is built upon
the idea that if you work hard, you apply yourself, you can move
up on the economic ladder of success. I would argue that this is not
the case, that all doors are not open for small businesses within
this country, particularly those based on the color of someone’s
skin.
If we are to sustain our democracy it is important that we take
action and continue to maintain what we have created, but also
build upon what we created, so that all Americans, no matter what
their skin color, no matter what their ethnic origins, can partici-
pate in our American democracy.
Despite the significant contributions of entrepreneurs of color to
the U.S. economy, which includes the launching of over 50 percent
of the new businesses that have been created in the last 10 years
have been created by people of color, creating 4.7 million jobs, these
entrepreneurs face systematic, systemic barriers to success. Access
to capital, which has already been mentioned, creates a critical
hurdle.
And there is study after study, both by the Federal Reserve and
by private industry, that shows that entrepreneurs of color have
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parts. The disparities in loan approval rates and higher interest
rates charged to minority-owned businesses highlight the system-
atic challenges of access to financial systems that impede entre-
preneurs of color from succeeding, in many cases.
Despite this, entrepreneurs of color have been a vital and critical
lifeline for American industry and for our economies, particularly
in local communities where they exist.
The government has a critical role in leveling the playing field.
This historic discrimination in lending practices and unequal ac-
cess to markets have curtailed the potential of minority entre-
preneurs. Addressing these challenges head-on is not only a matter
of equity but also economic necessity.
To dismantle these barriers, I propose not only to sustain but to
expand the initiatives like the Minority Business Development
Agency and the SBA’s 8 (a) small business development program.
Moreover, we must develop targeted financial products, such as
grants and low-interest loans, especially designed to meet the
unique challenges faced by minority entrepreneurs.
Finally, I would argue that the government bears a critical re-
sponsibility in not only breaking down systematic barriers but also
opening up access to markets, to ensure the success not only of mi-
nority entrepreneurs but all entrepreneurs. We strive to build a
more prosperous and inclusive economy. It is imperative that we le-
verage public and private sector solutions to empower these vital
contributors to our nation’s growth.
Let us pledge together to create a more inclusive and prosperous
future for every entrepreneur in our nation, recognizing the indis-
pensable role played by entrepreneurs of color.
Thank you very much, and I stand ready to answer any ques-
tions. [Applause.]
[The prepared statement of Mr. Cunningham follows:]
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Senator CARDIN. Thank you. Let me thank all six of our partici-
pants in this hearing. I think, Mr. Bernal, your research conclu-
sions are, you have got the exhibits here that gave you the specifics
that show that we have challenges, and that rather than removing
those challenges that sometimes there are more obstacles put in
the way of opportunity.
So yes, we could talk about one of the issues on contracting. We
find discriminatory practices of contracting authorities trying to
bundle contracts to make it impossible for minority businesses to
have a fair chance at a prime contract. They have to come in as
subcontractors. We also have the problems of established relations
of agencies, and they don’t want to open it up to additional oppor-
tunities. These are some of the challenges we have to deal with on
contracting.
And then we have the challenges on financing. Senator Van Hol-
len already mentioned CDFI program, which is one area that we
try to deal with the systemic challenges we have in the banking
community of established customers. It is hard to break that cycle.
And if you are a small business, is you are not as attractive as
larger small businesses, and you are more likely to have minorities
starting as smaller small businesses.
So all of that adds to the challenges that we have in the system.
But I want to concentrate at least my first question on the effec-
tiveness of the 8 (a) programs and MBDA, because that is the area
I think we have the experts here to talk about. We recognize what
the courts have done. We do not know the full impact of that yet.
We are still trying to figure that out. But could you give us some
examples or your observations as to whether the 8 (a) program has
been effective in removing some of these barriers, and can it be im-
proved, and what damage have the courts done to the 8 (a) pro-
gram by its interpretation? Whoever wants to start on that. Ms.
Meyers.
Ms. MEYERS. Sure. No problem. Thank you so much for that
question. I will just start a little bit about my history. So my
grandmother built a hair salon on the front porch of her house in
Youngstown, Ohio, where I am from. My grandfather worked in a
steel mill, and she had five children she needed to take care of, one
was with Down syndrome, so it afforded her the opportunity to be
home. But what it showed me or instilled in me was entrepreneur-
ship. I did not know it back then, but that is what it instilled with-
in me.
And then my mother is a 24-year United States Air Force vet-
eran. When she retired from the Air Force she started her business
in the government contracting space, and hence the legacy is al-
ready starting. And one day my mother and I sat down and we
started having a discussion about how do we build generational
wealth. How do we create legacy businesses, because we were not
born into this.
After that discussion, JLAN Solutions was born, and I named
JLAN after my four children—Jamie, Lenae, Asia, and Nia, be-
cause I wanted to instill entrepreneurship in them. And my daugh-
ter, Nia, my baby girl who is a rising junior at Pennsylvania State
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And so 21⁄2 of them have businesses now, because of this con-
versation, this strategy that we have built around entrepreneur-
ship. My son is 100 percent disabled, but he also played basketball
in high school, so he is a shooting coach, and he coaches people
around the DMV. And I have another daughter who is a graduate,
and she has a virtual assistance business, so she is helping people
around. And then my baby girl, during COVID, learned how to
braid. So at Penn State she is braiding everybody’s hair. So we are
instilling it in them.
But because of the 8 (a) program it has afforded us the oppor-
tunity to start creating generational wealth. It has afforded us the
opportunity to start these legacy businesses. My ultimate goal is to
get the children in the business—a couple of them are in there
now—and have them learn this business, be able to utilize the 8
(a) program as we go on, because now family members are able to
participate into this program.
But what it has taught me was business development. The 8 (a)
program has a lot of programs to help with business development.
And it has also given me access to training, leadership programs,
and executive coaches, things that we would normally not receive
for free. The APEX Accelerator, NMSDC programs like this have
just been phenomenal in helping us with access to capital, grants,
and contracting opportunities.
And now I am proud to say because of the 8 (a) program that
I am now the prime contractor on the majority of my Federal Gov-
ernment work. [Applause.]
Thank you. The challenges still exist in the access to capital, but
we are working on it. But the 8 (a) program has been great for me,
my business, my family, and my legacy.
Senator CARDIN. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms. Luis and Ms. Lawson, do you have any prime contracts or
are you all partnership or subcontracts? Have you been able to
break through with prime contracts with government?
Ms. LUIS. So maybe I can start on that. The majority of our work
is now prime contracting. We were very deliberate in that journey
because, as a subcontractor, it is harder to grow. It is harder to
grow.
I did want to also say that, Mr. Gary, that there was one single
day where as a prime contractor I lost four bids. That was not be-
cause I was not the low bidder—I was. In fact, we were the lowest
responsible bidder. That contract inevitably ended up being award-
ed to a multigenerational, majority contractor, which was incred-
ibly disappointing.
When we contract, we do not just look at the minimum require-
ments for MBE and WBE subcontracting opportunities. We actu-
ally have a mandate in our organization that we endeavor to al-
ways exceed with as much opportunity to the MBE and the WBE
community as possible. But it has taken decades to get there, and
only because of the support of the MBE and WBE programs have
we been able to break through.
Senator CARDIN. Ms. Lawson.
Ms. LAWSON. Yes. Thank you for that question. My journey is a
little different in that I have been doing government contracting
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say that minority businesses need to pull themselves up from the
bootstraps and just work hard and through merit that they will be
able to accomplish certain things, and my journey has been a
struggle. I have always been able to get subcontracting roles, never
a prime.
A lot of times when—well, yeah, on many occasions when I am
sitting down at the table I am the only Black female, Black small
business owner and female small business owner, sitting at that
table. And that is a big challenge to overcome the hurdles that are
put in front of me when there is potentially bias in the decision-
making process.
I have often thought to pursue the 8 (a) program, but I really
wanted to do it on my own. But you know what? I was not really
able to get to the level that I wanted to get. So as a result I am
now considering. I see the benefit, I am very familiar with the 8
(a) program, I am familiar with the benefits that could be achieved
from the 8 (a) program, going through the process of applying to
the 8 (a) program.
So if this program continues to get watered down or taken away,
given the fact that discrimination still exists in America, if this
program goes away it would even make it more difficult for small
businesses, minority businesses, women-owned businesses to
achieve any kind of success.
Senator CARDIN. Thank you. Senator Van Hollen.
Senator VAN HOLLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank all
of you for your testimony here. I think you provide very strong and
overwhelming evidence about the continuing need for the 8 (a) pro-
gram and the MBDA programs and other programs, in order to
level the playing field. Because as your testimony clearly points out
we have ongoing discrimination, as you mentioned, Mr. Bernal,
even with these programs in place. They are being underutilized,
right. Minority-owned businesses are still underutilized compared
to their potential, which means that we are not putting our full po-
tential on the table. So I agree with you, Mr. Cunningham, about
the need not only to preserve these programs but find ways to
make them even more effective.
As I think many of you pointed out, not only is this important
to have a fair shot and economic opportunity, but when there are
more competitors that are out there, this is also good for the Amer-
ican taxpayer. We want more competition in order to ensure the
taxpayers, as they go about choosing these businesses, have a fair
chance, and to allow those businesses to get in the game, to get in
the game.
So I do have a couple of questions with respect to the role that
I hear some of your competitors are playing in trying to undermine
your success. I think both Ms. Luis, I know Ms. Meyers, others
have talked about some of the harassment, some of the false infor-
mation put out there by competitors.
Can you talk a little bit more about how some of the primes that
I guess are concerned that they are going to lose a contract to one
of you, how they are undermining your efforts? Because as I listen
to you, Ms. Luis, your testimony, it seems to me that if you have
a pattern of a competitor making false allegations there we need
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ested in comments from any of you about what patterns you see
on that issue. Maybe we will start with you.
Ms. LUIS. Thank you, sir. So I will give you two examples today
about patterns. We started as a subcontractor and slowly but sure-
ly, organically, grew, mostly because of majority contractor inter-
ference. When we started bidding on larger paving contractors, that
is when the boxing gloves came out.
One of the ways that we were prevented from being successful,
for instance, is, let’s say I bid a mill and overlay program and I
had smaller patching crew, and I depended on subcontractors to
mill and overlay, and this happened. The larger contractors, the
larger paving contractors would threaten the existing MBE and
WBE subcontractors in that if those subcontractors bid to me or
worked for me, they would remove all of their work, their con-
tracted work, from them. So these smaller subcontractors refused
to bid to us, and in the public sector where I bid most of the time
you are outlining your MBE and your WBE participation. And it
became very, very difficult to obtain that at the time, and also to
complete our jobs. And we are under liquidated damages, so when
there was any kind of delay in the schedule there was a very large
financial hardship.
Another example is when we first purchased our asphalt plant
in Rockville from Lafarge we had accounts with every major as-
phalt manufacturer in Maryland. We had good accounts. We pur-
chased a lot of asphalt. It took us 6 years to negotiate that deal
with Lafarge, under complete secrecy, but we got it. And when it
was announced the response was extraordinary. It was almost un-
acceptable that an audacious female immigrant company would
have the ability to purchase that plant.
Asphalt is temperature sensitive, so you want to work around
plants that are nearby. When we purchased the plant, every single
manufacturer refused to sell us asphalt. So we had to take asphalt
from our Rockville plant, for instance to distances like City Center
Baltimore. I would like to say that we won an award for Falls Road
with our own asphalt from Rockville, but it was unnecessary be-
cause you can imagine it cost us three times, four times more in
hauling. It obviously reduced the productivity rates. It increased
overtime.
And so we are not economically viable for a number of years. And
so we went ahead and leased our second plant in the Baltimore city
area so we did not have that problem anymore.
Senator VAN HOLLEN. Well, thank you for shining a light on
those, what I would have to believe are clearly abusive practices,
and I guess the question is whether there is a way to make sure
there is a penalty attached to unfair competition.
Does anybody else want to comment on this particular issue?
Ms. MEYERS. Absolutely. Thank you so much. I really would like
to talk about the disparity or discrimination from large business to
small, majority-owned to minority-owned small businesses.
Just a few years ago we were part of a team on a large bid for
a government contracting opportunity in the IT space. The com-
pany won the bid. It was $650 million, and we had a workshare
of $9 million. The contract was protested by another large business.
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took almost 2 years for us to even get work. Where, in my testi-
mony, I talked about how all of the minority-owned businesses who
were on that winning contract, we had to write a letter to the om-
budsman in order to get work on the contract.
Because when large businesses, they do have a requirement to
do, I believe, about 35 percent to small business, so they utilize us
a lot to get work, but we do not necessarily see the work. It could
come in year 2, 3, 4, or 5. We do not know. By then we may or
may not still be in business. But they met their requirement. They
checked the box at the beginning. But there is no real account-
ability, from my perspective, of what I have seen.
But when that other majority-owned company won the contract
we got our subcontract agreement. Our agreement was for $4 mil-
lion. And I questioned it. I said, ‘‘Wait. We have a $9 million
workshare.’’ And they stated, ‘‘Oh, you are a minority-owned firm.
You are an 8 (a). You only qualify for $4 million, and that is all
you get.’’
So you can imagine how I felt, because we are ready to staff up.
You know, I have to talk to my staff, reduce our staff, because we
were expecting to grow from this. This was our foot in the door.
But like I said, we only had $4 million workshare.
And also, when I brought it to their attention, I talked to the vice
president of the company because I was upset. And he said, ‘‘I
apologize, but that is all we can do.’’ So it makes me think that
going forward I do not necessarily want to partner with this com-
pany anymore because of the way that they treat their small busi-
nesses.
And we like to show our customers who we are, what we do
every month. We like to do program management reviews and
highlight our employees and what they are doing. So we do this
with this company. So buried into our contract states that they can
hire our employees after 6 months. Early on I was young, naı̈ve
into the program, did not fully understand the contract, because at
the time I could not afford an attorney at the very beginning. And
so 6 months down the road they start hiring our employees, hired
them on a Friday, did not tell us.
So on Monday, Tuesday I reached out to our employees and said,
‘‘Hey, you haven’t input your timesheets.’’ ‘‘Oh, well, they told us
we work for them. We no longer had to input our timesheets.’’ No
notification to us. So, of course, me, I go back to the vice president
and have a conversation and still, ‘‘Well, I’m sorry. It’s in the con-
tract.’’
So bottom line is we started with six people. We now have one.
We were not a Tier 1 subcontractor, so we get what we get. It is
really frustrating that we are still treated like this, and there is
no real accountability.
I am sorry. I am a little emotional about that because it really
hurts us as minority-owned businesses, and we are really trying to
build something, to grow, and they are still hindering our growth.
Senator VAN HOLLEN. Do not be sorry. I would be emotional too.
I would be mad as hell.
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Ms. MEYERS. Yeah.
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Senator VAN HOLLEN. This is one of the reasons we wanted to
have this hearing. And again, thank you, Senator Cardin, for orga-
nizing it.
Senator CARDIN. Representative Ivey.
Mr. IVEY. I have more questions than I thought I was going to
have so I apologize in advance.
The $4 million versus $9 million, I was just kind of curious. Did
you approach the contracting officer about that? Did the govern-
ment know about it, or were you concerned about approaching the
CO, or how did that play out?
Ms. MEYERS. So we wrote a letter to the ombudsman, and the
ombudsman got involved with the Office of Small Disadvantaged
Business Utilization, the OSDBU, and then thereafter we started
seeing work but our workshare did not change. No one has ad-
dressed the issue of the decrease in the dollar value.
Mr. IVEY. And what department was it?
Ms. MEYERS. Which department?
Mr. IVEY. Mm-hmm.
Ms. MEYERS. Transportation.
Mr. IVEY. Interesting. Okay. How long ago was that?
Ms. MEYERS. So we are in year 4.
Mr. IVEY. No. I mean, how long ago was it that this popped up?
Was that 4 years ago?
Ms. MEYERS. Mm-hmm.
Mr. IVEY. Okay. Okay. I was going to ask about the new DOT
rules that just came out, but I will set that to the side for the mo-
ment.
Prebid conference was one I had a question about, as well, and
I guess this could be, well, not quite panel-wide. Mr. Bernal, I am
going to come back to you in a minute.
Back before the Ultima decision and some of those, they would
have the pre-bid conferences. Sometimes you ended up in a sce-
nario where there were discussions that were had, maybe promises
were made that were not kept down the road.
But I am kind of curious. To the extent there is a movement
away from, by the government, minority-specific race classifica-
tions, what happens in the pre-bid conferences now on these
issues? In other words, if you have a minority business, I guess
back in the day there would be like 35 percent minority business
utilization requirement. Is that still in place, or have they started
moving away from those because of you are not supposed to be des-
ignated as a minority business anymore?
Ms. MEYERS. So I would probably have Ms. Luis answer that be-
cause for us the pre-bid conferences we go to are more on the IT
side of the house, but construction is constantly pre-bid, and office
movement opportunities are pre-bid. But for us they just kind of
lay out what they are looking for, what the socioeconomic set-
asides, if there is going to be a set-aside or if it is just for a large
business. But they do tell us that before we get there of who is in-
vited.
We can go in and we can as our questions, but once we come out,
you know, you cannot speak to them anymore once the opportunity
hits the streets. So then we actually go ahead and bid on the oppor-
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tunity. But I think it is more prevalent in the construction realm.
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Mr. IVEY. Ms. Luis.
Ms. LUIS. So from a Federal funding component I generally bid
to the state, counties, municipalities, public/private sector, so I get
the Federal spend indirectly. The number one reason that we start-
ed bidding as a prime and letting go of some of our subcontracting
opportunities was because of those false promises. We would be
written in, and then really not utilized, or if so, often they would
come back after bid and try to renegotiate.
Over the years there has been a lot of clean-up of that, thanks
to your efforts. There are jurisdictions that are much better at ac-
countability than others. We try to stick to those. And as a prime
contractor, you know, when we first opened up our plant, one of the
difficult things for the minority- and women-owned business arena
was that they were not granted credit at asphalt plants because
the financial matrices that were used were similar to large bank-
ing. And so one of the things that we did is we removed all of that
and our team had to come to Cidalia and I and tell us why they
were not issuing credit to minorities and women-owned. And I
think when we work as a community and we try to make sure that
we are protectionists and we keep everyone at a fair play, then ev-
erything goes better. There has been improvement, for sure.
Mr. IVEY. Prompt pay. Again, this might be more of a sub-
contract question, but I had thought that, geez, the Prompt Pay-
ment Act was like in the ’80s or sometime, but now that I am back
in the middle of this stuff I am hearing complaints again about late
payments that are being made, sometimes for, frankly—they ap-
pear to me to be for strategic reasons as opposed to some legitimate
dispute about work that has been performed. I wanted to get a
sense of if that is something that you are seeing, as well, if that
is out there on the street too.
Ms. MEYERS. Definitely. You know, in the Federal Government,
as a small business, the FAR states that they can pay us within
15 days, if we ask, and generally they do comply. But when you
are a subcontractor there is a 45- to 60-day waiting period, where
we have to be financially stable in order to support these efforts.
The payments sometimes come in 45, sometimes in 60, sometimes
in 70 days. We still have to reach out and say we haven’t been
paid, it is in our agreement that we are supposed to be paid on
time, and we are still sometimes not paid on time.
It poses a challenge because they said, ‘‘Well, you know, our ac-
counting system is set up this way,’’ or ‘‘We haven’t been paid from
the government,’’ when in actuality the government pays. But it is
the primes that make us wait.
Mr. IVEY. Okay. Mr. Bernal, a couple of questions for you. I no-
ticed in your testimony you talked about disparity indexes and sort
of the scope of the studies that you do. It mentions in your testi-
mony it looks like you focus primarily on state and local govern-
ments.
Mr. BERNAL. Mm-hmm.
Mr. IVEY. All right. Do you have any familiarity with studies that
have been done that have targeted the Federal Government?
Mr. BERNAL. We do not do an overall Federal study, but there
are DOT studies that are involved with the Federal Government.
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But one of the things that we always see in the studies, and it is
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64
also because of case law, we need to be sure that when we are ana-
lyzing the issues, they are localized. What we see across all the
studies is a corroboration of what everybody has said today, that
race, ethnicity and gender impact a person’s ability to do business
in a certain jurisdiction.
And I think it is interesting to say, you know, when we look at
these targeted programs, such as the 8 (a), we just finished a study
for Baltimore that had an 8 (a) component, we do see progress. We
see progress in the utilization of minority businesses, subcontrac-
tors and sometimes even prime contractors.
But one of the things I really want to lay on this, as well, is the
economic impact that we see, as well. That is something that we
have started really looking into, what is the economic impact of
these programs. And all of what we see is that there is a true,
quantifiable impact, a positive impact to communities, to overall
communities, of having investments in these programs.
Mr. IVEY. One of the things that the judge in the Ultima case
wrote was that—he did not necessarily base his finding on it ulti-
mately, but he did question, or attack frankly, the studies that
were underlying. Basically he said there is insufficient information
from a records standpoint to justify the 8 (a) program continuing
in the way that it was, in other words, race-based classification for
admission into the program.
And you might not know what he had access to or not, but what
kind of programs or studies are out there, and what would be your
thought as to how the Federal Government could go about pulling
together those sorts of records? And I guess he wanted specific to,
they used to call them SI codes. What are they, NAICS codes now?
Okay. I apologize for my oldness on that. But I think he wanted
them specific to that too. So locality and also industry-specific
would probably be important, and also they have to be relatively
contemporary, I guess, based on what he said. He sort of argued
that they were so old that they would not be applicable.
How should the Federal Government go about pulling that to-
gether, and to what extent is there information that is already out
there along those lines?
Mr. BERNAL. And thank you, Congressman, for that question,
and you are right. I cannot speak to what the judge had in that.
But in my opinion I like to jokingly say, throw the kitchen sink at
these court systems. And what I mean by that is we already have
a lot of this data already, U.S. census data. That is a lot of the data
that we use in our disparity studies to analyze the private sector.
It looks at different levels of those NAICS codes throughout the en-
tire nation. It looks at it by jurisdiction. It looks at it in different
granularity. And we can use that to determine what is the impact
of race, ethnicity, and gender on a person’s ability to earn a certain
level of business revenue, on the likelihood to be self-employed.
So the data is available. It just needs to be used, like you said,
specifically to look at commodity code level, jurisdictional level, or
even the entire nation.
Mr. IVEY. All right. Last set of questions, and I guess, Ms. Luis,
these will be mainly for you. Bureau of Engraving is about to start
construction a few miles from here, maybe five or six miles. It is
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a $1.5 billion project, roughly. And I am assuming here is going to
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be a lot of asphalt, concrete, whatever, that is going to be needed
there.
When we took a look, we called them up and asked them about
what their goals were, and I think it was a 6 percent small busi-
ness goal, which I thought was shocking. And we are doubling back
to it, to make sure that I read that right, but a 6 looks like a 6.
I am pretty sure.
Had you heard about that? Did you bid on it? And then the fol-
low-up question is going to be—because we have got FBI coming,
we have got, tragically, but, you know, it has to get done, Key
Bridge is coming, the Baltimore Tunnel is coming. There is a lot
of stuff that is coming in the very near future right here in Mary-
land. And I am sort of curious as to what you are seeing and what
you think your chances are for participating in those.
What did they say, I think the bridge is going to be $1.7 billion,
Engraving is $1.4, FBI is like $3.5 or something. So literally bil-
lions of dollars coming just within a few mile radius of here. What
are you seeing? And if any of the others of you have any knowledge
of that, you speak up too. But we will start with you, Ms. Luis.
Ms. LUIS. Sure. So on those larger projects I tend to be artifi-
cially bid out because we have two divisions to our company, two
different companies. One is construction. The revenue cap is meas-
ured for retail road construction. For manufacturing it is based on
number of employees. That is the test.
Mr. IVEY. Number of employees that have not been stolen away
from your company, yeah.
Ms. LUIS. Yeah.
Mr. IVEY. I am sorry.
Ms. LUIS. No, it is okay. It is true.
When it comes to the DB factor, our business, even though I
have fought this quite a bit, our business tends to be tested on rev-
enue, and because it is a manufacturing plant, those revenues tend
to put us out of the ability to compete within the DB market.
We like to obviously participate as much as possible, but we are
typically subcontractors and utility organizations, such as WSSE or
BGE or Washington Gas, DC Water, and whatnot. When it comes
to the Federal spend I am relegated out.
Mr. IVEY. Anyone else?
Mr. MOORE. I would say that just about everything everyone said
here this morning I hear on a daily basis, three or four times a day.
And sometimes I feel like a little bit of a counselor, if you know
what I mean, because you have to deal with especially the emo-
tional part of it.
But with the infrastructure part we have had difficulty at the
Maryland MBDA with even getting our foot in the door to talk to
somebody. So if the Senator’s office, or your office called, they
would pick up the phone. And I would think that the MBDA and
the U.S. Department of Commerce, they would pick up the phone
for me too. But most of them know what the reason is why I am
calling, and so I don’t get any kind of communication back.
A lot of my client say—some of them do not even want to bid on
it. They have already got that. You know, they know who the
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money is going to. Why should they even bother? And that is also
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because that is things they see in their past and in their busi-
nesses.
So I have got to try and turn that around, and I am still knock-
ing the door for those things. And hopefully with your help I will
be able to get through and have somebody pick up the phone. That
is all I want is a phone call and an opportunity to speak and intro-
duce some of my clients, like M. Luis.
Ms. LUIS. If I could just add one small piece to that, I think one
of the solutions is because these are such large contracts, I think
one of the solutions is if the Federal space were willing to create
reciprocity with local certifications, such as Prince George’s County
or MDOT, I think you would quickly get to that 35, 40-plus per-
cent, because you have the businesses that are certified. It is get-
ting through the DBE, that for those kinds of dollars typically the
revenue cap inches everyone out.
Senator CARDIN. I can assure you that we heard you loud and
clear, and we will very much be engaged. To Representative Ivey’s
point about the amount of public construction that will take place
in the state of Maryland over the next few years, it is going to be
dramatic. So we will absolutely be working with the MBDA, so we
will do that.
I had one other point that I just wanted to raise and that is with
the court challenges to the MBDA programs, your thoughts as to
what Congress can do, what we can do, to make sure that the serv-
ices that are provided there can continue. We know it is going to
be a challenge, but we want to work with you in that regard.
It is not necessary for answering today, but we would appreciate
your technical support in making that a reality. Mr. Cunningham,
we also appreciate your help in that regard, with your experience
in Minnesota. So any thoughts there, please let us know.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I would say a cou-
ple of things. One is the MBDA is doing a fantastic job of working
with the demand of contractors that are coming in to do work with
the MBDA centers across the country. The issue is that there is
just not enough staff. When I was in Minnesota at the MBDA cen-
ter, one of the things we saw, we did a market analysis, and what
we found was we were only serving about 19, 20 percent of the
market that could have been served if we had enough staff. And
we were already overloaded.
I think all of the MBDA centers are seeing this kind of demand,
and that technical assistance and support that they are providing
is critical for these folks to be successful in what they are doing.
So I would argue that the number one thing is that we have to
increase the capacity of these organizations to do this work. This
is not only just good for minority entrepreneurs; it is good for the
country.
So I will stop there, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MOORE. And I think the budget was cut $1.7 million.
Senator CARDIN. We are now in the appropriations cycle for fiscal
year 2025, and that is one of our priorities is to try to help in re-
gard to budget support. But as you know, the real challenge is in
Representative Ivey’s court as we try to get reasonable caps in the
budget process, and this is one of the programs that are our pri-
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ority. So we will be working with you in that regard.
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I want to thank our witnesses. This has been extremely helpful.
I want to acknowledge Carlton Atkinson, Roderick Lewis, and my
staff for helping to put this all together today. I appreciate every-
one’s cooperation.
So let me just conclude by a quote from Parren Mitchell that my
staff put in front of me, which I think is very appropriate to con-
clude this hearing. And this is quoting from Parren Mitchell. ‘‘If
you believe in fighting racism you make a commitment for the rest
of your life. There is no getting off that train. You can’t say I’ll put
five years into fighting racism and now I’m finished. No. You are
not finished. Our job is to fight it every day, to continue to shove
it down, when it rises up, to shove it down even harder.’’
With that the hearing will stand adjourned, and we thank you
all for the fight to make our country a better place. [Applause.]
[Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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109
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00120 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
117
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00121 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
118
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00122 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
119
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00123 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
120
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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121
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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122
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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123
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00127 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
124
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00128 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
125
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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126
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00130 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
127
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00132 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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133
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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134
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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135
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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136
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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137
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00144 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
141
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00145 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
142
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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143
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00147 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
144
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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145
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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146
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00150 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
147
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00155 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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155
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156
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157
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158
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00163 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
160
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00164 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
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jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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163
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00167 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
164
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00168 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
165
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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166
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00170 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
167
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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168
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169
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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VerDate Sep 11 2014 01:24 Oct 31, 2024 Jkt 056458 PO 00000 Frm 00173 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 E:\HR\OC\A458.XXX A458
170
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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171
jgilmore on DSK126QN23PROD with REPORTS
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-118shrg56458.pdf
- Size
- 41,260,545 bytes
- SHA-256
- ef31dd33265963ac3704eb9fb90cb91df601ce2843dde666520199f4ed545854
- Our copy
- CHRG-118shrg56458.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov