Markup of H.R. 1163, H.R. 2027 and Other Bills (House Small Business Committee hearing, April 30, 2025)
Summary
The printed record of a markup hearing before the Committee on Small Business of the U.S. House of Representatives, One Hundred Nineteenth Congress, First Session, on April 30, 2025 (Small Business Committee Document Number 119–009). The bills marked up were H.R. 1163, the Prove It Act of 2025; H.R. 2027, the Returning SBA to Main Street Act; H.R. 2987, the CEASE Act; H.R. 2931, the Save SBA from Sanctuary Cities Act; H.R. 2968, the Business over Ballots Act; H.R. 2965, the Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act of 2025; and H.R. 2966, the American Entrepreneurs First Act. The committee is chaired by Roger Williams, with Nydia Velázquez as Ranking Member. The vote index records final passage of H.R. 2968, H.R. 2027 and H.R. 2966 as amended by recorded votes of 15 AYES to 11 NAYS, and several minority amendments failing by 11 AYES to 15 NAYS.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Cite this document
“Markup of H.R. 1163, H.R. 2027 and Other Bills (House Small Business Committee hearing, April 30, 2025).”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/markup-of-h-r-1163-h-r-2027-and-other-bills-house-small-business-commi-f2c1082b2d/
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MARKUP OF: H.R. 1163, PROVE IT ACT OF
2025; H.R. 2027, RETURNING SBA TO MAIN
STREET ACT; H.R. 2987, CAPPING EXCESSIVE
AWARDING OF SBLC ENTRANTS (CEASE) ACT;
H.R. 2931, SAVE SBA FROM SANCTUARY CITIES
ACT; H.R. 2968, BUSINESS OVER BALLOTS ACT;
H.R. 2965, SMALL BUSINESS REGULATORY RE-
DUCTION ACT OF 2025; H.R. 2966, AMERICAN
ENTREPRENEURS FIRST ACT
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD
APRIL 30, 2025
Small Business Committee Document Number 119–009
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
60–590 WASHINGTON : 2026
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
NICK LALOTA, New York
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
TONY WIED, Wisconsin
ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
BRIAN JACK, Georgia
TROY DOWNING, Montana
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
GIL CISNEROS, California
KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
GEORGE LATIMER, New York
DEREK TRAN, California
LATEEFAH SIMON, California
JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire
LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director
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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................ 1
Hon. Nydia Velázquez ............................................................................................. 2
APPENDIX
Additional Material for the Record:
H.R. 1163 - Prove It Act of 2025 ..................................................................... 56
H.R. 2027 - Returning SBA to Main Street Act ............................................. 69
H.R. 2987 - Capping Excessive Awarding of SBLC Entrants (CEASE)
Act .................................................................................................................. 80
H.R. 2931 - Save SBA from Sanctuary Cities Act ......................................... 82
H.R. 2968 - Business over Ballots Act ............................................................ 88
H.R. 2965 - Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act of 2025 ................... 92
H.R. 2966 - American Entrepreneurs First Act ............................................. 95
Amendments:
Amendment to H.R. 1163, offered by Mr. Finstad ......................................... 98
Amendment to H.R. 2027, offered by Mr. Alford ........................................... 112
Amendment to H.R. 2987, offered by Mr. Bresnahan ................................... 122
Amendment to H.R. 2931, offered by Mr. Finstad ......................................... 123
Amendment to H.R. 2968, offered by Mr. Williams ...................................... 129
Amendment to H.R. 2965, offered by Ms. Van Duyne .................................. 132
Amendment to H.R. 2966, offered by Ms. Van Duyne .................................. 135
Williams Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2968 - ‘‘Business over Ballots Act’’
was AGREED TO by a voice vote ................................................................ 138
Alford Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main Street
Act’’ was AGREED TO by a voice vote ........................................................ 139
Van Duyne Amendment, no. 1, H.R. 2966 - ‘‘American Entrepreneurs
First Act’’ was AGREED TO by a voice vote .............................................. 270
Finstad Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2931 - ‘‘Save SBA from Sanctuary
Cities Act’’ was AGREED TO by a voice vote ............................................. 140
Bresnahan Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2987 - ‘‘Capping Excessive Award-
ing of SBLC Entrants (CEASE) Act’’ was AGREED TO by a voice
vote ................................................................................................................. 141
Van Duyne Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2965 - ‘‘Small Business Regulatory
Reduction Act of 2025’’ was AGREED TO by a voice vote ........................ 142
Finstad Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’ was
AGREED TO by a voice vote ....................................................................... 143
Conaway Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2968 - ‘‘Business over Ballots Act’’ ... 144
Velázquez Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2968 - ‘‘Business over Ballots
Act’’ ................................................................................................................. 146
Conaway Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main
Street Act’’ ..................................................................................................... 147
McIver Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main
Street Act’’ ..................................................................................................... 150
Morrison Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main
Street Act’’ ..................................................................................................... 151
McIver Amendment, no. 2, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main
Street Act’’ ..................................................................................................... 152
Cisneros Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2931 - ‘‘Save SBA from Sanctuary
Cities Act’’ ...................................................................................................... 153
Velázquez Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2931 - ‘‘Save SBA from Sanctuary
Cities Act’’ ...................................................................................................... 154
Olszewski Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2965 - ‘‘Small Business Regulatory
Reduction Act of 2025’’ ................................................................................. 157
Morrison Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2965 - ‘‘Small Business Regulatory
Reduction Act of 2025’’ ................................................................................. 158
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IV
Page
Amendments—Continued
Goodlander Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’ ......... 159
McGarvey Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’ ........... 160
Velázquez Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’ ........... 162
Olszewski Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’ ........... 165
Support Documents:
E Vote Results .................................................................................................. 167
ABC letter ......................................................................................................... 188
AFGE letter ....................................................................................................... 189
AFL-CIO letter .................................................................................................. 190
ASBC letter ....................................................................................................... 192
CSS letter 1 ....................................................................................................... 195
CSS letter 2 ....................................................................................................... 197
HSBC Minority letter 1 .................................................................................... 199
HSBC Minority letter 2 .................................................................................... 203
HSBC Minority letter 3 .................................................................................... 207
HSBC Minority letter 4 .................................................................................... 211
HSBC Minority letter 5 .................................................................................... 216
JCN letter ......................................................................................................... 219
NAHB letter ...................................................................................................... 222
NFIB letter ........................................................................................................ 223
NH Delegation letter ........................................................................................ 225
NSBA letter ....................................................................................................... 227
Philips Policy Consulting letter ....................................................................... 229
SBE Council letter 1 ......................................................................................... 234
SBE Council letter 2 ......................................................................................... 236
U.S. Chamber of Commerce letter .................................................................. 238
WSJ letter ......................................................................................................... 241
Votes:
Conaway Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2968 - ‘‘Business over Ballots Act’’
FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ................................ 249
Velázquez Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2968 - ‘‘Business over Ballots
Act’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ........................ 250
Final Passage to H.R. 2968, ‘‘Business over Ballots Act’’ as amended
was PASSED by a recorded vote of 15 AYES to 11 NAYS ........................ 251
Conaway Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main
Street Act’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ............ 252
McIver Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main
Street Act’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ............ 253
Morrison Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main
Street Act’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ............ 254
McIver Amendment, no. 2, to H.R. 2027 - ‘‘Returning SBA to Main
Street Act’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ............ 255
Final Passage to H.R. 2027, ‘‘Returning SBA to Main Street Act’’ as
amended was PASSED by a recorded vote of 15 AYES to 11 NAYS ....... 256
Final Passage to H.R. 2966, ‘‘American Entrepreneurs First Act’’ as
amended was PASSED by a recorded vote of 15 AYES to 11 NAYS ....... 257
Cisneros Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2931 - ‘‘Save SBA from Sanctuary
Cities Act’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ............. 258
Velázquez Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2931 - ‘‘Save SBA from Sanctuary
Cities Act’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ............. 259
Final Passage to H.R. 2931, ‘‘Save SBA from Sanctuary Cities Act’’ as
amended was PASSED by a recorded vote of 15 AYES to 11 NAYS ....... 260
Final Passage to H.R. 2987, ‘‘Capping Excessive Awarding of SBLC En-
trants (CEASE) Act’’ as amended was PASSED by a recorded vote
of 15 AYES to 11 NAYS ............................................................................... 261
Olszewski Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2965 - ‘‘Small Business Regulatory
Reduction Act of 2025’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to
15 NAYS ........................................................................................................ 262
Morrison Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 2965 - ‘‘Small Business Regulatory
Reduction Act of 2025’’ FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to
15 NAYS ........................................................................................................ 263
Final Passage to H.R. 2965, ‘‘Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act
of 2025’’ as amended was PASSED by a recorded vote of 15 AYES
to 11 NAYS .................................................................................................... 264
Goodlander Amendment, no, 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’
FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ................................ 265
McGarvey Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’
FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ................................ 266
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Page
Votes—Continued
Velázquez Amendment, no. 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’
FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ................................ 267
Olszewski Amendment, no, 1, to H.R. 1163 - ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’
FAILED by a recorded vote of 11 AYES to 15 NAYS ................................ 268
Final Passage to H.R. 1163, ‘‘Prove It Act of 2025’’ as amended was
PASSED by a recorded vote of 15 AYES to 11 NAYS ............................... 269
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MARKUP OF H.R. 1163, PROVE IT ACT OF 2025;
H.R. 2027, RETURNING SBA TO MAIN
STREET ACT; H.R. 2987, CAPPING EXCESSIVE
AWARDING OF SBLC ENTRANTS (CEASE)
ACT; H.R. 2931, SAVE SBA FROM SANCTUARY
CITIES ACT; H.R. 2968, BUSINESS OVER BAL-
LOTS ACT; H.R. 2965, SMALL BUSINESS REG-
ULATORY REDUCTION ACT OF 2025; H.R.
2966, AMERICAN ENTREPRENEURS FIRST
ACT
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2025
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:49 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
man of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Meuser, Van Duyne, Alford,
LaLota, Finstad, Bresnahan, Schmidt, Velázquez, McGarvey,
McIver, Cisneros, Morrison, Olszewski, Conaway, and Goodlander.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The committee will now come to order. A
quorum is present and without objection, the Chair is authorized
to declare a—a a new Chair here for minute. Here you go. Without
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the com-
mittee at any time.
Before we get into the main business today, I want to ask unani-
mous consent to waive Mr. Jimmy Patronis from the great state of
Florida on to the committee. He will serve as a Member of the Sub-
committee on Oversight, Investigations, and Regulations, the Sub-
committee on Rural Development, Energy, and Supply Chains, and
the Subcommittee on Innovation, Entrepreneurship, and Workforce
Development. Without objection, so moved.
As required by the House rules a copy of the legislative measures
have been made available to Members and the public at least 24
hours in advance, and pursuant to committee rule 13 and House
rule 11, all votes will be rolled at the end of the meeting.
And like the last markup we will use electronic voting. Without
objection, the committee will vote electronically in accordance with
the committee rules and regulations developed by the Committee
on Rules and House Administration.
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2
I now recognize myself for opening remarks. Here on this com-
mittee we stand up for hard-working entrepreneurs and small busi-
ness owners. We understand that it is our job to put forward mean-
ingful policy solutions that encourage growth and make it easier,
not harder, for small businesses to grow and to thrive.
In today’s markup, we will consider seven bills that address the
needs of small business owners across the country. These bills take
steps to restore accountability and trust in the Small Business Ad-
ministration. We have a job on this committee to be a voice for
main street here in Washington.
Under the Biden-Harris administration small businesses and en-
dured an unprecedented regulatory assault. Those policies contin-
ually undermine the SBA’s mission and its core functions. The bills
in this markup correct those wrongs and support the Trump ad-
ministration policies to ensure that the federal government puts
American entrepreneurs first again.
Last Congress this committee fought job-killing regulatory bur-
dens that shackled small businesses. We even heard from small
business owners that they were told by government officials that
the goal was to drive small businesses out of business.
To add insult to injury, the Biden administration removed the
SBA lending standards to put American tax dollars at risk by ap-
proving loans for borrowers who were not able to repay them. For
4 years the Biden-Harris SBA moved the agency and its employees
further away from its mission of serving Main Street America.
The SBA began unprecedented activity like electioneering and
approving loans for illegal immigrants. This committee and the
Trump administration have heard small business loud and clear
that guardrails must be put up and is what Administrator Loeffler
has done in just a few months as SBA administrator.
Today’s bills work to ensure that no future administration will
be able to end this kind of assault on small businesses. Those com-
mon sense bills are another step forward in unleashing small busi-
ness from the government burdens to bring about the golden age
of main street.
As Chairman I am committed to funding or defining real legisla-
tive solutions to help small businesses grow and thrive. I would
like to thank our Members for bringing these bills forward for con-
sideration in today’s markup. And I am incredibly proud to see our
committee generating sound, responsive legislation to support Main
Street America.
With that, I yield to my friend and my distinguished Ranking
Member from New York, Ms. Velázquez.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to
welcome Mr. Patronis to the committee, and we look forward to
working with you throughout this Congress.
But, Mr. Chairman, before I make my statement I just have to
put into the record the fact that there hasn’t been presented any
shred of evidence that undocumented immigrants have been given
any loans. And if there exists any evidence, please bring it forward.
And the first thing that you need to do is to get the adminis-
trator to come before this committee and testify about the many
issues that we need to tackle within the Small Business Adminis-
tration.
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Let me begin by saying that the timing and content of this mark-
up is ill-conceived. We are in the midst of reconciliation and a vast
majority of our Members cannot attend due to conflicts. It doesn’t
make sense to move controversial bills without giving all Members
a fair opportunity to participate and offer amendments.
Aside from the Member conflicts, these bills, which put major or-
ganizational changes into statute having been vetted and no over-
sight has been conducted.
Committee Democrats sent five letters to Administrator Loeffler
on some of these issues and they have all gone unanswered. We
need the information and the administrator should be here testi-
fying on the mass firings, program costs, relocation of district and
regional offices, and new changes to the lending programs.
Instead, we are getting stonewalled by the administration and
marking up bills without hearings, briefings, or any vetting on
some of these policies.
Small businesses are concerned about tariffs and we should be
working together to hold an oversight hearing on the administra-
tion’s reckless policies that have wreaked havoc, chaos, and confu-
sion across our country. And by the way, the GDP report released
this morning indicates our economy shrank 0.3 percent over the
last 100 days.
According to the MetLife and Chamber of Commerce Small Busi-
ness Index, only 29 percent of small businesses feel good about the
nation’s health and 58 percent ranked inflation as their top con-
cern. Let’s not forget President Trump promised to lower inflation.
Instead, he picked a fight on tariffs with Canada, Mexico, and
other countries.
Prices are beginning to surge and small businesses are paying
the price. The Wall Street Journal recently reported on several
small businesses that are on the verge of extinction because they
cannot afford the added costs.
And if that is not bad enough, the policy can be changed with
a tweet causing undue uncertainty for small businesses. I would
like to enter the Wall Street Journal article into the record.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. With that said, I cannot support the certain
bills we are considering today because the process has been ill-con-
ceived. I ask of the Chairman again that he demand Administrator
Loeffler testify to explain the reorganization and programmatic pol-
icy changes before marking up these bills.
Thank you and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Does any other Member seek recognition
for the purpose of making an opening statement? Okay. Seeing
none, we will now move to consideration of the first bill.
H.R. 2968
The committee now moves into consideration of H.R. 2968, the
Business Over Ballots Act that I introduced earlier this month. The
clerk will report the bill.
The CLERK. H.R. 2968, a bill to limit the authority of the Small
Business Administration——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 2968 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment. I have an amendment in the
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nature of a substitute at the desk that has been distributed in ad-
vance. The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R.
2968 offered by Mr. Williams——
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved. Without objection, the amend-
ment is considered as read and the substitute will be considered as
base text for the purpose of further amendment. I now recognize
myself for a statement on the bill and the amendment.
The SBA is many things to a small business. They can help with
everything from facilitating business loans to helping veterans find
a pathway to entrepreneurship. What the SBA is not, however, is
a voter registration arm of a presidential reelection campaign. But
that is what the Biden-Harris administration attempted turn the
SBA into until this committee found out and launched an extensive
investigation into the matter last year.
After stonewalling us for months, I issued three subpoenas to the
SBA resulting in a treasure trove of documents. The documents re-
vealed that the Biden-Harris SBA tried to cut deals with swing
states to encourage in electioneering, including with the governor
and the secretary of state of Michigan. The SBA moved so far be-
yond of helping main street start businesses that the agency was
almost unrecognizable.
This bill makes it clear that the role of the Small Business Ad-
ministration is to help small businesses, not register voters. This
bill is common sense, and I hope my colleagues across the aisle
agree that there is no room for electioneering at the SBA.
I urge all of my colleagues to support this bill.
Does anyone else wish to speak on the bill and the amendment?
Mr. MEUSER. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Mr. Meuser from the great state of Penn-
sylvania.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Your bill, the Business
Over Ballots Act, would prevent the SBA from using their valuable
taxpayer-funded resources to further the political campaign of pres-
idential candidates as it occurred under the previous administra-
tion under Administrator Guzman.
Not that our new administration or leadership, new adminis-
trator or leadership would expend valuable resources on such ac-
tivities, but during a time when our nation’s small business owners
were struggling with suffocating inflation, burdensome regulations,
workforce shortages, and difficulty accessing capital, the SBA
prioritized their efforts to inappropriately influence the election
prospects of President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Har-
ris.
Along with entering into a new voter registration memorandum
of understanding with the Michigan Department of State, the SBA
hired Jennifer Kim as an associated administrator in the office of
field operations, if I recall correctly, at a salary of something like
$225,000.
Unlike many employees at the SBA, Ms. Kim specialized pri-
marily in politicizing, in political organizing, campaigning, and reg-
istering voters. Ironically, her only previous experience with small
business was what one would describe as a left wing environ-
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mentalist organization that campaigned for increased government
regulations that very often were harmful to small businesses.
Thankfully, under the leadership of Administrator Loeffler, we
now have an SBA that is actually focused on the need of America’s
small businesses and not electioneering in swing districts.
Mr. Chairman, this legislation is essential to prevent gross ad-
ministrative malpractice and to ensure that the SBA focuses solely
on its mission to aid, counsel, assist, and protect the interests of
small business.
Using agencies to campaign politically is wrong, is not ethical, it
violates the Hatch Act, and if we do not fix this now permanently
we perhaps could be perceived as endorsing the actions of the pre-
vious administration.
I urge my colleagues to support the bill, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Does anyone else wish to speak on the bill and the amendment?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes. You don’t have anybody?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I don’t think so.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Seeing none, I would like to recog-
nize the Ranking Member to speak on the bill and the amendment.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Williams. I am opposed to
H.R. 2968. In the last Congress, the majority launched a heavy-
handed investigation issuing multiple subpoenas of public servants
and firing off numerous oversight letters demanding documents
without a scope from SBA and the White House. And after a year-
long investigation into SBA’s actions and 3 business days before
the markup we received a copy of this bill.
I am curious. Why aren’t we applying the same level of robust
oversight to the administration’s reorganization and relocation of
the regional offices?
Let’s set the record straight. The bipartisan—bipartisan—Na-
tional Voter Registration Act allows states to designate federal
agencies as voter registration agencies. That is the law.
To that end, SBA and the Michigan Department of State signed
a memorandum of understanding, or MOU, allowing the Michigan
Department of State to create a unique URL to place on SBA’s
website to drive online voting registration. It permitted the Michi-
gan Department of State to register voters at SBA district office
outreach events in Michigan. The cost to the American taxpayers
were minimal.
And despite loud claims to the contrary, resources were not di-
verted from small businesses. The committee was briefed by SBA,
information was shared, and thousands of pages of documents were
provided. We have had multiple hearings where the majority’s
claims were thoroughly debunked.
We have sat through two transcribed interviews of SBA employ-
ees and yet no evidence was uncovered to support their claims. It
is unsettling that the majority wants to offer a bill to prohibit the
SBA from promoting voter registration.
The previous administrator testified that no one used the link to
register to vote. The link is no longer on the SBA’s website. It is
a non-issue.
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6
This bill is purely a messaging bill designed to distract us from
the president’s intentional tanking of the economy and the result-
ing tumbling of the market. I am opposed to this measure, and I
urge my colleagues to vote against it.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. The gentlelady yields back. I thank
you.
And does anyone else wish to offer an amendment? Yes, sir? For
what purpose does the gentleman seek recognition?
Mr. CONAWAY. I have an amendment at the desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. There is an amendment at the
desk. We will briefly pause while staff distributes the amendment.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read.
I now recognize the Mr. Conaway, Dr. Conaway, for 5 minutes
on the amendment.
Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I stated, I would
like to offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R.
2968, the Business Over Ballots Act. I oppose H.R. 2968 because
the basis for this bill is unfounded.
For context, in March of 2024, the SBA with the Michigan De-
partment of State signed a memorandum of agreement under
which the SBA did the following: placed a link on the Michigan dis-
trict office website, the Michigan Department of State’s existing on-
line voter registration form and agreed to allow the Michigan De-
partment of State staff to conduct in-person voter registration
events.
These actions are consistent with the National Voter Registration
Act of 1993 wherein ‘‘state governments may designate entities, in-
cluding federal agencies, as voter registration agencies responsible
for facilitating access to voter registration.’’
Now, who could be against that activity? It is the number one
item or right that protects freedom here in our country.
The House Small Business Committee Republicans launched an
investigation alleging that activities were not within the statutory
mission of the SBA. Ultimately, their investigations amounted to
nothing as on September 18th Administrator Guzman testified be-
fore the committee that zero individuals had registered as a result
of this link.
In reality under the Biden administration, the SBA helped in-
crease small business growth and development with more than 20
million new small business applications being processed by the
SBA resulting in 60 million new jobs and driving unemployment to
historic lows.
With the SBA’s shrinking workforce the agency already has a
limited capacity to manage their ultimate directive, which is to
serve and advance the growth of the American small business.
Adding the student loan portfolio under the jurisdiction of the SBA
runs contrary to the House’s projected ethos of government effi-
ciency.
H.R. 2968 is purely a messaging bill meant to distract the public
from the actions undertaken by the Trump administration to deci-
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mate federal agencies like the SBA in the name of government effi-
ciency while adding programs like the student loan portfolio, which
my amendment would prohibit, would be consistent with the SBA’s
overriding mission to support and develop small businesses in our
country.
I urge my colleagues to support this amendment so that we can
focus on the real issues that small businesses are facing, not manu-
factured ones. With that, I will close my statement on my amend-
ment.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Is there any further debate on the amendment?
Mr. Meuser from the great state of Pennsylvania.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I oppose this amend-
ment requesting documents and communications from the SBA as
an exercise—oh, I am sorry. We have got the Conaway amendment.
I began in the wrong spot, my apologies.
The administration is looking into ways into restructuring the
administration of federal student loans in a manner that would
allow them to operate more efficiently and effectively. The SBA is
a candidate to take over this responsibility.
This amendment would prevent the administration and Congress
from moving forward from even considering this proposal. Further,
this amendment is not germane to the narrow scope of the under-
lying bill. I urge my colleagues to vote no.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. The gentleman yields back.
Is there any further debate on the amendment?
Okay. I move to strike the last word. Conaway amendment No.
182968, unfortunately, this amendment is an attempt to distract
from the fact that the Biden administration was attempting to reg-
ister Democratic voters in a swing state during the last presi-
dential election.
Utilizing executive branch agencies to interfere in elections is un-
acceptable, and I urge my colleagues to vote against this amend-
ment.
Is there any further debate on the amendment?
Mr. MCGARVEY. I have got to read a statement.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Mr. McGarvey from the great state
of Kentucky.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and our Ranking
Member Ms. Velázquez, who is not here will make remarks on her
behalf. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Our colleagues have raised serious concerns about the deeply
misguided proposal to transfer student loans to the SBA. We have
requested additional information from the administrator on the
proposal but have not received any answers on how such a transfer
would occur and what will be required of the SBA.
We continue to believe there will be negative consequences for
both students and small businesses if this proposal were to become
a reality, especially without any congressional oversight.
I applaud Dr. Conaway for offering this amendment today and
make it clear that the student loan portfolio cannot be moved to
SBA by executive decree and urge all of colleagues to support it.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
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The question now occurs on the amendment offered by the gen-
tleman—from Dr. Conaway.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
All right. Now, does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Okay. A recorded vote has been requested and a roll call vote is
ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Mr. MCGARVEY. I will offer an amendment.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. There is an amendment at the
desk. We will briefly pause while staff distributes the amendment.
Okay. The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 2968——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read.
I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from Kentucky for 5 minutes on
the amendment.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I offer this amend-
ment on behalf of Ranking Member Velázquez, who has to be in
another markup right now. Ms. Velázquez’s amendment would re-
quire the SBA to provide the committee with information on the
administration’s deeply misguided proposal to transfer the student
loan portfolio to the SBA.
It is unclear to what extent the administrator was involved in
these discussions or decisions prior to the president’s announce-
ment, but given the massive cost of administering and servicing
student loans that would be imposed on the SBA additional con-
gressional action and oversight is warranted.
The committee must have this information to understand the im-
pact on small businesses, the SBA and its programs, staff, re-
sources, and legal authorities, as well as the student loan bor-
rowers. I therefore urge all of my colleagues to support Ms.
Velázquez’s amendment.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Van Duyne from the great state of Texas.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much. Requesting documents
and communications from the SBA is an exercise that is completely
out of scope for this amendment, particularly for student loan ad-
ministration that has not yet begun at the agency, so the bill that
we have drafted here today is plain and simple.
Though my colleagues on the other side of the aisle do not be-
lieve that the SBA should be involved with administering student
loans, I get that, but they should be focused on making sure that
no federal agency should be involved in influencing elections. And
I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
Is there further debate on the amendment? Okay. I move to
strike the last word, and this bill is solely focused on the voter reg-
istration activity of the SBA, not an oversight exercise to gain ac-
cess to internal communications at the SBA.
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The SBA lost its way under the last administration and must be
refocused to serve America’s Main Street and not register voters.
So, I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
Is there further debate on the amendment? The question now oc-
curs on the amendment offered by myself from Texas—oh, Mr.
McGarvey, I am sorry, from Kentucky.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, no.
In the opinion the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Mr. Chairman, Ms. Velázquez would like to re-
quest a recorded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. A recorded vote has been requested
and a roll call vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amend-
ment are postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment? The question now
occurs on the adoption of the substitute amendment offered to H.R.
2968 by me.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. The amendment in
the nature of the substitute H.R. 2968 is adopted.
Mr. ALFORD. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. The question—okay. The question is now
on favorably reporting H.R. 2968 as amended to the House.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair——
Mr. ALFORD. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. You are recognized. Yes. For what pur-
pose does the gentleman seek recognition?
Mr. ALFORD. I ask for a recorded vote, please.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested. A
roll call vote is ordered, so pursuant to committee rule 13 and
House rule 11, further proceedings on the bill are postponed.
H.R. 2027
The committee now moves to consideration of H.R. 2027, the Re-
turning SBA to Main Street Act introduced by Representative
Alford from the great state of Missouri.
The clerk will report the bill.
The CLERK. H.R. 2027, a bill to require the administrative——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 2027 considered
as read and open for amendment. The bill’s sponsor, Mr. Alford,
has an amendment in the nature of a substitute at the desk. The
amendment has been distributed in advance and the clerk will re-
port the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R.
2027 offered by Mr. Alford——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read and the substitute will be considered as base text
for the purpose of further amendment.
I now recognize the sponsor of the bill and the amendment, Mr.
Alford from Missouri, for a statement.
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Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for this
markup session Ranking Member Velázquez.
Look, this committee exists in Congress to champion main street.
That is what we are all about. That is what we will continue to
be all about under the direction of our Chairman to make sure that
small businesses that employ about half of all Americans can con-
tinue to thrive.
Our role is to help lower the barriers to creating small busi-
nesses and to support small businesses that already exist with the
capital and counseling that they need to survive.
For 4 years the SBA stepped away from that core mission. Under
the previous administration, the SBA deliberately pulled back from
the field their staff, they stayed home and stayed focused on the
registering Democratic voters.
Did everyone get that? Instead of doing their jobs they were more
concentrated about registering Democrat voters. And this is why
we are proud to introduce the Returning SBA to Main Street Act
to force the SBA out of the swamp and back on main street.
By relocating these workers, Mr. Chairman, into the commu-
nities that they serve, we can provide our nation’s small businesses
with the support they deserve and reduce wasteful spending on un-
used office space that we personally saw on our miniature codel
over there almost 2 years ago now.
I am proud to work with Chair Joni Ernst on this critical legisla-
tion to drain the swamp and ignite a new golden age for the back-
bone of our economy, America’s small businesses. I strongly sup-
port this legislation and urge my colleagues to do the same.
Let’s get back to main street and back to the business of doing
business in America, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. And does
anyone else wish to speak on the bill and the amendment? Okay.
If none and seeing none, I would like to recognize—I am sorry.
Okay, I have got you.
I recognize from Kentucky.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Williams, and on behalf of our
Ranking Member Ms. Velázquez I want to say that I am opposed
to H.R. 2027 the Returning SBA to Main Street Act. I agree that
main street is a major, massive priority, but this bill is another
messaging bill that attacks federal employees and will harm our
nation’s 34 million small businesses.
The vast majority of the SBA’s workforce is already in the field
in either loan or processing centers or in the 68 district offices and
10 regional offices. As of December 2024, only 12 percent of SBA’s
workforce was located at its headquarters and these employees are
focused on programmatic matters.
The SBA had roughly 640 employees in their district offices who
were specifically trained to provide customer service to small busi-
nesses, but here is the reality. The new administrator is cutting
the workforce by 43 percent and without a clear coordinated strat-
egy.
I am hearing that has resulted in a 20 percent reduction to field
operations staff, but I would love to have her come and testify to
this committee and explain the situation and the staffing numbers
to us in person so we can better understand this.
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I ask my colleagues, does this bill relocate 30 percent of employ-
ees at headquarters to other parts of the country? Does it make
any sense if we are left with minimal employees? How can we relo-
cate employees if we have no idea what the agency staffing reality
is and where the staff are even left in each office and location
around the country? Put simply, it does not.
It is a messaging bill designed to distract us from the harmful
tariff policies that are fueling inflation across the country. In the
end, small businesses will bear the brunt of these ill-conceived poli-
cies.
If Republicans want more people in the field then they shouldn’t
have fired or forced people into early retirements. They should
have invested in the employees who are specifically trained in cus-
tomer service outreach and engagement.
This bill also comes with a hefty price tag and does nothing to
control government spending. The SBA signed a 20-year lease in
November 2020 and the cost of breaking the lease will run in the
millions. And there is a cost to relocating employees to other parts
of the country, even if the agency is not paying the relocation ex-
penses.
I would like to enter into the record a letter from the American
Federation of Government Employees and the AFL-CIO stating,
‘‘this bill will cause the loss of highly trained and skilled SBA em-
ployees with decades of institutional knowledge, training, and ex-
pertise in their local market and established connections to local
lenders and small businesses allowing them to provide critical serv-
ices to the American public in times of need.’’
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
Mr. MCGARVEY. AFGE goes on to write that ‘‘this bill will limit
an employee’s ability to participate in union activities, including
limiting protections under the collective bargaining agreement or
master labor agreement and banning a private right of action for
wrongful termination.’’
In closing, I urge my colleagues to oppose this bill that will harm
SBA employees and diminish services to America’s 34 million small
businesses. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. And I will recognize myself for a state-
ment. I rise in support of H.R. 2027, the Returning SBA to Main
Street Act introduced by my friend Representative Alford from the
great state of Missouri.
Main Street America is filled with small businesses that provide
all types of goods and services. From small manufacturers to cut-
ting edge innovators, these entrepreneurs are located all over our
great nation. Yet in true fashion of the federal bureaucracy, the
agency tasked with assisting main street isn’t located on main
street, but in Washington, D.C..
Since day one, President Trump has issued executive orders to
streamline the government. This led Administrative Loeffler to
take action last month. She announced that at least 30 percent of
the SBA staff are relocating to where small businesses are, simply
on main street.
So, by moving the SBA employees back to main street, H.R. 2027
will ensure that the SBA is more responsive and in tune with small
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businesses across this great country. So, I urge all my colleagues
to support this bill.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Mr. CONAWAY. I have an amendment at the desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So recognized. There is an amendment at
the desk, and we will briefly pause while staff distributes the
amendment.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 2027 offered by Mr.——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read.
I now recognize the gentlewoman—or Dr. Conaway, I am sorry,
Doctor, for the amendment.
Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to offer
an amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R. 2027, the Re-
turning SBA to Main Street Act.
On March 21, 2025, SBA Administrator Kelly Loeffler announced
an agency-wide reorganization that includes a 43 percent workforce
reduction. Additionally, according to the American Federation of
Government Employees, there is a large amount of pressure for
employees to leave the voluntary separation via—or rather the vol-
untary separation incentive payment or a reduction in force. These
reductions in force remain under way at the SBA.
These actions have essentially kneecapped the SBA by shrinking
an already understaffed workforce. H.R. 2027 would relocate 30
percent of SBA employees from headquarters to other parts of the
country and is, unfortunately, another messaging bill that further
puts strain on the federal workforce.
This bill will ultimately hurt the 34 million small businesses in
the United States, which are the engine of employment in our econ-
omy and our country.
Moreover, this bill is not necessary because the majority of the
workforce is currently in the field. Along with being in the field,
the SBA is being directed to shrink their workforce. What we
should be doing is advocating for an increase in resources to the
SBA so they can continue to drive our economy, the economy in our
country.
SBA district offices need to conduct outreach, engagement, and
customer services. That should be our goal, not to target federal
employees in the name of government efficiency. My amendment
would require the U.S. Government Accountability Office to con-
duct an analysis of the SBA administrator’s reorganization plan.
Under the bill the following would be required: the cost of termi-
nating or modifying the leases on government, that is SBA, build-
ings and offices and relocation costs for federal employees; the ef-
fect such a plan would have on legally binding collective bargaining
agreements; the effect of the transfers on SBA’s performance pro-
gram and services provided to small businesses; a description of
any challenges faced with the relocation of the agency’s workforce;
a detailed and comprehensive estimate of the cost of these reforms;
and an explanation as to how they will be funded.
I urge my colleagues to support this amendment. With that, I
yield back.
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Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Is there any further debate on the amendment?
Mr. ALFORD. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, what does the gentleman need?
Mr. ALFORD. Debate on the amendments, sir.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. I now recognize Mr. Alford from
Missouri.
Mr. ALFORD. Mr. Chair, this amendment creates just another
bureaucratic hurdle that is going to create even more delays in the
needed reforms of the Small Business Administration. A yearlong
review process? It is only going to slow down the agency’s ability
to be responsive to small businesses, another year of delays for
analysis is just going to hurt our small business owners even fur-
ther.
Instead of prioritizing main street, this amendment protects SBA
headquarters’ staff while missing the point of the SBA priorities,
which is to serve small business owners, not federal employees.
Let me repeat this. The SBA’s mission is not to protect the fed-
eral employees. It is to protect and grow small businesses on main
street.
At the time when the SBA should be cutting red tape, this
amendment adds more of it by forcing the SBA to spend more time,
more resources, more energy, more people on duplicative reporting
instead of delivering real results for the American people and
America’s small businesses.
Mr. Chair, I highly recommend that we vote no on this amend-
ment, and let’s get this thing done and get to concentrating on
Main Street America. That is what the president United States
wants. That is what the administrator wants, Kelly Loeffler, and
that is what this committee should be all about.
And with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Is there any further debate on the amendment?
I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from Kentucky.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And on behalf of
our Ranking Member Ms. Velázquez, I applaud Dr. Conaway for of-
fering this common sense amendment that would have GAO review
any proposal to relocate staff that is based on numbers. And that
is what we need to do.
So, we are here to protect main street. We are here to protect
small businesses. We want to do things that make sense. It would
be really helpful if the administrator would come and answer any
of these questions here.
But again, only 12 percent of the workforce is based out of SBA
headquarters and arbitrarily moving some employees with no co-
ordination with the administration’s 43 percent workforce reduc-
tion does not make sense at this time.
Instead, the GAO should review these ill-conceived plans for the
actual impact on the small businesses that rely on the SBA for
loans, contracting, disaster assistance, and other SBA programs
that impact their businesses and livelihoods.
I urge all of my colleagues to support this amendment, and, Mr.
Chairman, I yield back.
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Chairman WILLIAMS. I move to strike the last word and let me
say this. This amendment will cause unnecessary delay, and thus,
I urge my colleagues to simply vote against it.
The question now occurs on the amendment offered by myself—
or by Mr. Conaway, I am sorry, from him.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, of the noes have it and the amend-
ment is not agreed to.
A recorded vote has been requested. A roll call vote is ordered
and further proceedings on the amendment are postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Ms. MCIVER. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. There is an amendment at the desk. We
will briefly pause while staff distributes the amendment. Okay.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R.——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read.
And I now recognize Congresswoman McIver for 5 minutes on
the amendment.
Ms. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to the Rank-
ing Member. Today I am offering an amendment in response to the
extraordinary instability we see at the Small Business Administra-
tion and the lack of communication from the SBA administrator
has shown to Members of this committee.
My amendment would prevent this bill from taking effect unless
the SBA administrator appears before this committee to testify
about her reorganization plan for the SBA.
This week marked the first 100 days since the Trump adminis-
tration assumed control of the SBA. Before this administration, the
SBA helped guide millions of small businesses out of the chaos of
COVID-19 pandemic and into an era of historic growth under the
Biden-Harris administration.
In just the last 100 days, we have seen a spree of firings, an-
nounced plans to shutter critical needed SBA offices with no re-
placements, and plans to shift the entire federal student loan port-
folio to SBA, all of this occurring while the SBA continues with its
plans to cut nearly half of its workforce.
Despite these dramatic and disruptive changes, the adminis-
trator has yet to appear before this committee to explain the SBA’s
recent actions or present any vision for the agency’s future. This
lack of transparency is unacceptable, and it should be unacceptable
to everyone here on this committee.
Earlier this month, the SBA even announced an internal inves-
tigation targeting staff for speaking to press and communicating
with former colleagues. This is a clear attempt to silence whistle-
blowers and conceal the full extent of the administrator’s destruc-
tive mismanagement of SBA.
So now we have a situation where the SBA administrator is not
facing any meaningful oversight, which is our job, while the SBA
tries to intimidate its own staff for speaking out about how the
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agency is being run. How can Congress legislate for the American
people without the facts on the ground?
Our small businesses deserve better. Congress deserves answers
and the American people deserve an SBA that is stable, account-
able, and focused on helping entrepreneurs, not serving an eco-
nomically destructive political agenda or operating in secrecy.
For these reasons, I urge my colleagues to support this amend-
ment. With that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. And is there
further debate on the amendment?
Mr. FINSTAD. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Mr. Finstad for 5 min-
utes.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. This amendment could
significantly delay the process of bringing SBA employees back to
underserved areas and creates unnecessary bottlenecks. The re-
quirements for testimony introduces an additional layer that delays
face-to-face communication by the SBA to our small businesses.
And, in fact, this bill, the underlying bill that we are talking
about here today, really is all about Congress taking control of the
direction and the shortfalls of SBA. And so with that being said,
I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Is there any further debate on the amendment?
Mr. ALFORD. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. ALFORD. Over here, sir.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Yes sir.
Mr. ALFORD. Look, Kelly Loeffler is not here today. We are here
today to mark up this bill to get it out to get the SBA out into
Main Street America.
And I know that the Member who offered this amendment, Ms.
McIver, was not here I believe during our last term, but I was. And
a lot of people were here who are sitting here now who repeatedly
asked for Administrator Guzman to come and explain herself as to
why she was turning the SBA into an electioneering arm of the
Democrat party?
Now, she refused to do that. We went to see her at her office.
She gave us a little tour as she collapsed the workforce into one
floor to make it look like they were actually doing their job at the
SBA, but we saw through that. And she finally showed up towards
the end of the last term.
Now, look, this is a bipartisan committee. We have got to work
together to make sure the SBA is doing its job and getting back
to the job of making things grow on main street, but we can’t have
this type of duplicitous rancor, this disingenuousness.
And so, I strongly urge a no vote on this amendment. It is not
right to try to force Kelly Loeffler to come here after only being in
office for 100 days and a big job to do right now while Ms. Guzman
refused to come.
So with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Ms. MORRISON. Mr. Chair? Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes, ma’am. Ms. Morrison.
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Ms. MORRISON. May I respond?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes you can.
Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield my time to
Mrs. McIver.
Ms. MCIVER. Thank you so much, Dr. Morrison, to my col-
league. First of all, I don’t know why it is being mentioned about
where I was last time and last term, which I was here last term.
But anyway, oversight is our job.
Oversight is necessary, so saying that this amendment is unnec-
essary is, quite honestly, crazy. It is what our job is here in Con-
gress. We are supposed to provide oversight and that is what we
should be doing, so it is very necessary.
Secondly, I don’t care how long the SBA administrator has been
on the job. That is not an excuse for the administrator coming be-
fore this committee to talk with us and answer questions so we are
not assuming or guessing about what is happening.
This, you know, Congress is trying to operate and without clear
answers we are not able to legislate and do our job.
Thirdly, yes, we want to work. We want to be in a bipartisan sit-
uation and work together, you know, yeah, bipartisan committee.
We want to work together, however, we are not being included and
none of our amendments or anything that we are suggesting or
working with us across the aisle is not being considered, so that
is a problem.
So, I am happy that across the aisle my colleague acknowledged
that we are bipartisan. Well, let’s start acting like it. With that I
yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. Is there fur-
ther debate on the amendment? Okay.
The gentleman is recognized from Kentucky.
All right. Who is that? Oh, Ms. Van Duyne from the great state
of Texas is recognized.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would
just add that if there are questions, instead of waiting until our
next meeting why don’t they just go ahead and request them di-
rectly from the administrator? You have the means to be able to
do that. Write a letter. All of our offices do that.
So, if you have got specific questions that you want answered ask
them from the administration. There is no need to uphold and wait
and wait and wait and delay this action except to just delay it.
So again, we submitted a lot of questions that never got an-
swered from the previous administration over and over again. We
requested a number of times the administrator to come and visit.
If we had upheld having any kind of bills move through our com-
mittee simply waiting to have somebody come and testify that
would have been ridiculous. So, you have got the means to be able
to do it. Just write a letter.
I am going to put the rest of my time to my gentle colleague, Mr.
Alford.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Ms. Van Duyne.
And, Mr. Chair, I just want to correct the record because I love
this committee. I know you do, too. I think everyone on this com-
mittee loves this committee but we have to deal in a place of truth.
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I do want to correct the record. The Member from the other side,
first my apologies for not recognizing your commitment to this com-
mittee last term. I sincerely apologize for that.
But secondly, this committee and this committee staff has
worked with the minority side to get the amendments in, but not
only that, to offer the opportunity to put bills into this markup ses-
sion and yet they have refused to do that.
They do not want this to be a bipartisan markup session as we
have had in the past, and I think that is not good for the American
people. We need to continue down the path even though, look, we
have a different administration now. Elections have consequences.
We knew that when Biden was in office and Ms. Guzman was
the administrator we were going to have to deal with things that
we did not like and try to make changes as we could. I implore the
other side to do the same now, to work with us to make America
great again through small businesses. Let’s put our shoulders to
the plow and get this done for the American people.
And with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Is there further debate on the amend-
ment?
You are recognized.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I actually was not
planning on speaking but I just wanted to put into the record that
we have, in fact, written a letter to the administrator. We have
asked not only for her to attend and testify, we have asked specific
questions of the administrator. Those letters have gone unan-
swered.
So, I appreciate my colleague’s suggestion but we have, in fact,
done that. We have been met with absolute silence from the admin-
istrator. And I would just respond also that I don’t think that as
a new Member I don’t think it is a good practice to look into the
past constantly and get into a cycle of, well, a prior administrator
didn’t come so that is a reason to not do it now.
I think if it was wrong then it should be wrong now. And so I
would just offer as an olive branch that we could work together to
say that should be the new standard going forward that we do get
responses from administrators, Republican or Democrat, that they
do testify. And I do look forward to finding ways to find more bi-
partisan bills in the future.
So, I just wanted to put that on the record. I come at this where
I share my colleague’s desire to make it bipartisan, and I do hope
we can have that open communication with the administrator who-
ever it is. So, thank you very much, appreciate it.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Is there further debate on the amendment?
Okay. I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from the great state of
Kentucky.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And again, because
our Ranking Member has to be at a markup right now I want to
offer some thoughts on this.
First, a few things just globally what is going on. I enjoy this
committee because I think we do work together to make sure that
America’s small businesses are working. That is the backbone of
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our economy, not just in my congressional district but in every con-
gressional district across this great country.
As to what Mr. Olszewski said about the letters to the adminis-
trator, we have written letters to this administrator asking for this,
five letters, in fact, and I would like to move to enter those into
the record now so that everyone knows what we have been asking
and what we have not been receiving from the administrator.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would also like to
point out that while maybe no administration is perfect since I
have been on this committee and when Administrator Guzman and
the Biden administration was in charge of the SBA, she came here
and testified in front of this committee twice a year.
She also came to many Members’ districts, including some of my
Republican colleagues who are sitting in here today, including my
district because she was getting involved in what was happening.
So, I do want to point out that she did come and testify in front
of this committee and oftentimes was asked to bring things with
her.
Unto this amendment I applaud Rep. McIver for offering this
amendment and support her efforts to increase congressional over-
sight of this ill-conceived proposal. The committee has made re-
peated requests to the SBA during this administration and all have
gone unanswered.
We cannot conduct proper oversight if the administration refuses
to provide basic information, and this bill is a prime example of
how decisions should not be made without it.
There is no strategy from the SBA on their current workforce
changes and the majority is now imposing additional new, baseless
workforce requirements. Both appear to be making decisions inde-
pendent of each other and the facts that are on the ground.
The SBA’s workforce should be aligned with the agency’s mission
needs and the small businesses that they serve and support, not
haphazard directives made without full and complete information.
And I urge all of my colleagues to support this amendment.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
Is there any further debate on the amendment? All right.
I will move to strike the last word. It is the majority’s right to
work with the minority and the SBA determine when and on what
the administrator should testify on before the committee.
So, I appreciate my colleagues’ push for transparency with the
administration. We can achieve this in other ways, and I urge my
colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
Okay. The question now occurs on the amendment offered by
McIver.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Ms. MCIVER. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes, ma’am.
Ms. MCIVER. Thank you. I would like to request a recorded vote.
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Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered so further proceedings on the amendment
are postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Ms. MORRISON. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the
desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. There is an amendment at the
desk, and we will briefly pause while staff distributes the amend-
ment.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 2027——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read.
I now recognize Representative Morrison from the great state of
Minnesota for 5 minutes on the amendment.
Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me start by
saying that while I appreciate the desire to ensure that the Small
Business Administration is providing top notch service to our small
businesses in their districts and regional offices across the country,
arbitrarily relocating 30 percent of the employees at SBA’s head-
quarters is not only unnecessary but it is also extremely disruptive
to the lives of those employees.
My amendment would exempt SBA employees who are veterans.
As the wife of a veteran, I am deeply concerned about this adminis-
tration’s treatment of our nation’s veterans. The Trump adminis-
tration has fired more veterans than any other administration in
history showing blatant disregard for those who have sacrificed so
much for our country.
Forcing SBA employees who are veterans to abruptly relocate
would be another cruel decision that breaks our pledge to take care
of those who have served.
I want to end by urging my colleagues on both sides of the aisle
to support this amendment and stand up for our nation’s veterans.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. Is there fur-
ther debate on the amendment?
Mr. ALFORD. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I now recognize Mr. Alford from
Missouri.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you. Look, while we really appreciate the
sentiment of this amendment, it is misplaced. This bill is designed
to better serve veterans by bringing the SBA closer to them. That
is what the SERVE Act was all about, to encourage—to force the
SBA to start doing a better job in building veterans into business
owners. We have got to get the SBA out into the interior of Amer-
ica, into the heart of America, into main street to reach veterans.
You know, at the end of World War II more than half the people
who left the military started a small business in America and now
it is less than 10 percent. There is a reason for that, and they are
not getting the capital and the counseling that they need.
And so while this amendment is appreciated, it is misplaced in
the fact that the SBA is going to be more responsive and have face-
to-face conversations with veterans who need help. So, veterans
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20
being relocated to help other veterans, I don’t see a better avenue
for building relationships and building Main Street America.
And with that, Madam Chair, I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. [Presiding.] Is there any further debate on the
amendment? Okay.
So, now I recognize Representative McGarvey from the great
state of Kentucky for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate
the work of my colleague Dr. Morrison in offering this amendment
to prohibit the administrator from forcing veterans to uproot their
lives or lose their jobs based on an arbitrary congressional direc-
tive.
The SBA has always been a small organization that punches
above its weight. Fulfilling the mission to assist entrepreneurs in
starting, building, and growing their businesses is a difficult task.
It has grown more difficult since this administration began indis-
criminate firings and issuing hostile directives toward its employ-
ees.
We do not need to make it any harder to get the right people into
SBA jobs, yet this is what this bill will do. Dr. Morrison’s amend-
ment will provide some relief by exempting veterans from this un-
productive mandate.
Veterans bring determination, needed skills, and a sense of ca-
maraderie to their work and their retention should be a priority for
all employers, including Small Business Administration. I urge all
of my colleagues to support Dr. Morrison’s amendment and protect
the SBA employees who have served.
I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes. It
makes no sense that the agency that is tasked with servicing Main
Street America is centrally located in Washington, D.C. Veterans
nationwide are actively seeking SBA assistance to start or grow
their businesses and, unfortunately, because of the lack of re-
sources and staff in the field offices many of their needs are going
unmet.
This amendment will not only help veterans but it will also help
small businesses across the country and thus I urge my colleagues
to vote against it.
All right. The question now occurs on the amendment offered by
the Representative Morrison from Minnesota.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Ms. MORRISON. Madam Chairwoman, I request a recorded vote,
please.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested and a roll
call vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are
postponed.
Does anyone else offer an amendment on this?
Ms. MCIVER. Madam Chairwoman, I have an amendment at the
desk.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. There is an amendment at the desk. We will
be briefly paused while staff distributes the amendment.
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The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, the amendment is consid-
ered as read.
I now recognize Mrs. McIver from New Jersey for 5—I am sorry?
Where is she? All right. For 5 minutes on the amendment.
Ms. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairwoman. I would like to offer an
amendment to this bill, one that reflects the deep concern many of
us share about the cost, impact, and integrity of the Small Busi-
ness Administration under its current leadership.
This amendment would prohibit this administration—this
amendment would prohibit this bill from taking effect until the
SBA administrator formally determines that its implementation
would not increase cost to the agency or the American taxpayer.
The SBA is actively cutting nearly half of its workforce and en-
gaging in other structural changes, all without a clear strategy or
communication with all Members of this committee.
It is entirely reasonable to require a formal cost determination
before allowing additional measures to move forward. Once again,
oversight.
The SBA is already about to take on a massive new responsi-
bility managing a more than $1 trillion federal student loan port-
folio while laying off many of the hard-working SBA employees who
helped countless small businesses through their loan programs in
the last 4 years.
The very idea that this agency could take on more responsibil-
ities without any additional cost is ridiculous. This amendment is
simple. It ensures that we do not add to the chaos by green-lighting
legislation that may carry unknown or hidden costs. It places the
burden on the administrator to certify that this bill would not in-
crease expenditures.
If the SBA cannot guarantee that, then that bill should not move
forward. Congress must be the guardrail. We must be the ones to
ask hard questions, demand clear answers, and protect the people
we serve from political decisions that could harm our economy and
our small businesses.
Our small business community, our federal budget, and our
democratic process deserve nothing less. I urge my colleagues to
support this amendment.
And with that, I yield back.
Is there further debate on the amendment?
Mr. ALFORD. Madam Chair?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. I now recognize Mr. Alford from Missouri for
5 minutes.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you. While I appreciate this amendment by
Mrs. McIver, I agree we do need guardrails. We don’t need road-
blocks. This is a roadblock to the evolving nature of the SBA and
the vision of this administration, this administrator, and the major-
ity of this committee to get back on main street. And so, I urge my
colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
Thank you and I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Is there further debate on the amendment?
I now recognize Representative McGarvey from the great state of
Kentucky for 5 minutes.
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Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. The last
amendment required SBA to take into account the needs of small
businesses when determining relocations. This amendment re-
quires the SBA to consider the costs.
Both are important considerations that appear to have been over-
looked in the underlying bill. But those requirements are almost
exclusively focused on pushing out the experienced staff who sup-
port SBA programs, not their efficacy, cost, or performance.
This amendment fixes that by ensuring that the majority’s mes-
saging bill does not waste taxpayer dollars that would otherwise be
used to assist entrepreneurs in starting, operating, and growing
their businesses. I urge all of my colleagues to support this amend-
ment.
And I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes. The
SBA is capable of administering student loans and will be prepared
whether or not their employees are in D.C. or outside of D.C. I urge
my colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
The question now occurs on this amendment offered from Rep-
resentative McIver from New Jersey.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Ms. MCIVER. Madam Chairwoman, I would like to request a re-
corded vote.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested and a roll
call vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are
postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment? The question now
occurs on the adoption of a substitute amendment offered to H.R.
2027 by Mr. Alford.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it and the amendment
in the nature of a substitute to H.R. 2027 is adopted.
The question is now on favorably reporting H.R. 2027 as amend-
ed to the House.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it and H.R. 2027 as
amended is agreed to.
Mr. ALFORD. Madam Chair?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. For what purpose does the gentleman seek
recognition?
Mr. ALFORD. I ask for a recorded vote.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested and a roll
call vote is ordered. Pursuant to committee rule 13 and House rule
11, further proceedings on the bill are postponed.
H.R. 2966
So, the committee now moves into consideration of H.R. 2966, the
American Entrepreneurs First Act, introduced by Representative
Van Duyne from the great state of Texas.
The clerk will now report the bill.
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The CLERK. H.R. 2966——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. And without objection, H.R. 2966 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment. The amendment has been
distributed in advance, and the clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R.
2966——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. And without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered read and the substitute will be considered as base text for
the purposes of further amendment.
I now recognize myself as the sponsor for 5 minutes. For far too
long, loopholes in the SBA’s application process have allowed fed-
eral dollars to fall into the wrong hands, often due to insufficient
verification procedures.
We saw the consequences of this during the pandemic when bil-
lions of dollars of taxpayer funds meant for American small busi-
nesses were lost to fraud, theft, and abuse. This bill closes those
gaps and codifies a much-needed citizenship verification require-
ment.
President Trump and Administrator Loeffler took a strong first
step by requiring SBA applicants to verify their legal status
through executive action, but we now know that executive orders
can be reversed. So, now it is Congress’ responsibility to act.
This bill makes those reforms permanent, protecting the SBA
from abuse by foreign nationals, illegal aliens, and other ineligible
applicants. Specifically, my bill requires every SBA applicant to
verify their date of birth and citizenship or immigration status, and
it ensures that businesses benefiting from SBA loans are 100 per-
cent owned by eligible individuals and explicitly excludes owner-
ship by visa holders, DACA recipients, and undocumented individ-
uals.
These are targeted, reasonable safeguards that will reflect the
will of the American people. I urge support for this legislation, and
I yield back.
Does anyone else wish to speak on the bill and the amendment?
Seeing none——
Mr. MCGARVEY. Madam Chair?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. All right. I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from
the great state of Kentucky for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I offer
a statement on behalf of our Ranking Member Ms. Velázquez, who
is in a markup herself.
I strongly oppose H.R. 2966. Not only would this bill deny hard-
working small business owners with the legal right to be in this
country with the financing they need to grow and scale their busi-
nesses, it will create practical challenges for SBA lending partners
that jeopardizes the operations of both the 7(a) and 504 programs.
H.R. 2966 is a solution in search of a problem and it seems to
be premised on the notion that certain segments of the American
population are receiving SBA loans they otherwise shouldn’t.
The bill also moves programs away from their original purposes
and use of prudent underwriting standards to evaluate origina-
tions. The main purpose of the 7(a) program is to provide credit-
worthy small business borrowers that demonstrate an ability to
repay and who cannot find credit elsewhere with access to loans
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and loan guarantees. That legal status of a borrower has no bear-
ing on their creditworthiness or their ability to repay and should
not be used as a proxy for the prudent underwriting determination.
The bill also prevents U.S. majority-owned small businesses with
minority ownership from participating in SBA lending program.
One prominent SBA program lender has already expressed to the
committee that after the SBA’s recent policy implementing Presi-
dent Trump’s executive order, which this bill is modeled after, their
institution was unable to modify a loan for a U.S. small business
owned by a husband and wife solely because one of the individuals
in the couple was a citizen of a European country.
In some ways it is ironic that the majority is marking up this bill
now. Under the terms of this bill and the recent SBA policy
changes, SBA lenders will need to create new compliance regimes
to certify the status of individuals and comply with 100 percent
U.S. beneficial ownership requirements in the bill.
Ironically, these questions and compliance procedures are similar
to the ones Republicans across the House caucus have argued for
years are either too complex, too costly, or too invasive for lenders
to comply with the CFPB Section 1071 rule and the Corporate
Transparency Act’s beneficial ownership requirement.
Both the Section 1701 rule and the beneficial ownership rule
have safe harbors, remedies for good faith mistakes, and in some
situations opportunities for applicants to decline to provide their
information altogether. H.R. 2966 is silent on all of these and
seems to require maximum compliance from all applicants at all
times with no exceptions.
The bill as written also creates practical challenges for program
lenders and threatens future operations of both programs.
For example, the Equal Credit Opportunity Act prohibits credi-
tors from discriminating against credit applicants on the basis of
national origin, age, and other protected classes, and H.R. 2966
seems to make both age and national origin a threshold require-
ment in order for the borrower to qualify for a 7(a) or 504 loan.
As such, some program lenders have already expressed to the
committee that verifying a borrower’s date of birth and status in
order to comply with H.R. 2966 could expose their institutions to
legal violations under ECOA and force them to pull back from SBA
lending.
Finally, concern has already been expressed that the SBA could
sign a memorandum of understanding with DHS similar to the
agreement that DHS recently signed with the IRS to share the in-
formation an individual borrower or business applicant has pro-
vided.
A partnership between the SBA and DHS to share small busi-
ness borrowers’ citizenship information is without precedent and
could weaponize the SBA and SBA program lenders as immigration
enforcement officers threatening the safety of thousands of small
business owners.
For these are many additional reasons, I urge my colleagues to
vote against the bill, and I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. I would like to now recognize Representative
LaLota from the proud state of New York for 5 minutes.
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Mr. LALOTA. The proud and great state of New York, thank
you, Madam Chair. My staff told me today would be a partisan de-
liberation of the Small Business Committee. I thought what could
be so partisan about how we help main street, but I guess here is
where we are at.
The question is whether or not American taxpayers should sub-
sidize loans to non-citizens, and it is clear the two parties have dif-
ferent opinions on that. I think that American taxpayers should
only subsidize loans towards American citizens.
And I respect my colleagues from this side of the aisle, I disagree
with their premise that we should continue to subsidize loans to-
wards non-citizens. And I think that H.R. 2966 does exactly what
we need to prevent the blatant disregard for our laws that we saw
time and time again under the Biden-Harris administration.
For 4 of those years, the SBA exacerbated the migrant crisis by
approving loans for illegal immigrants despite their ineligibility.
That, thankfully, has come to an end under the leadership of Presi-
dent Trump and Administrator Loeffler.
Last month the SBA found that the Biden-Harris SBA approved
a nearly $1 million loan to a business that was 49 percent owned
by an illegal immigrant. Thankfully, it was stopped before any
funds could be disbursed.
In line with President Trump’s executive order, quote, ‘‘ending
taxpayer subsidization of open borders,’’ end quote, the American
Entrepreneurs First Act codifies Administrator Loeffler’s new SBA
policy. This policy rightfully requires citizenship verification, just
as we should have with our elections, of SBA assistance applica-
tions. These safeguards will ensure that only the American tax-
payer-backed SBA loans go to American entrepreneurs.
Madam Chairman, it doesn’t get any more no-brainer than this.
I urge my colleagues to vote yes, and I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. All right. Does anyone else wish to offer an
amendment? So, the question now occurs on the amendment of-
fered—no, sorry. The question now occurs on the adoption of the
substitute amendment offered to H.R. 2966 by Representative Van
Duyne.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. The amendment in
the nature of a substitute to H.R. 2966 is adopted.
The question is now favorably reporting H.R. 2966, as amended,
to the House.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it and H.R. 2966——
Mr. LALOTA. Madam Chairwoman?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Yes. For what purpose does the gentleman
seek recognition?
Mr. LALOTA. I request a recorded vote.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested and a roll
call vote is ordered. Pursuant to committee rule 13 and the House
rule 11, further proceedings on this bill are postponed.
H.R. 2931
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The committee now moves into consideration of H.R. 2931, the
Save SBA From Sanctuary Cities Act introduced by Representative
Finstad from the great state of Minnesota.
The clerk will report the bill.
The CLERK. H.R. 2931——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, H.R. 2931 is considered as
read and open for amendment. The bill’s sponsor, Mr. Finstad, has
an amendment in the nature of a substitute at the desk. The
amendment has been distributed in advance.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment in the nature of a substitute——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. And without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read and the substitute will be considered as base text
for the purposes of further amendment.
I now recognize the sponsor of the bill and the amendment, Mr.
Finstad, for a statement.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Madam Chair. For years sanctuary
jurisdictions have circumvented federal law raising serious public
safety concerns. Moreover across the country, politicians have
passed sanctuary jurisdiction policies that have encouraged waves
of illegal immigrants to come into our nation.
Last November the American people overwhelmingly elected
President Trump to secure our nation’s border and to make our
communities safe. And since taking office, President Trump has
done exactly that.
In my home state of Minnesota the Small Business Administra-
tion office is currently located in the city of Minneapolis and is re-
sponsible for serving all of Minnesota’s 87 counties. For years Min-
neapolis has passed several sanctuary city policies and at one point
even attempted to defund their own police department.
My legislation, the Save SBA From Sanctuary Cities Act, would
require the Small Business Administration to remove and relocate
their offices that are currently located in sanctuary jurisdictions to
better ensure resources benefit American small businesses and,
more specifically, for communities like mine, rural communities.
Small businesses and those seeking resources from our SBA of-
fices across this country deserve to have access to these resources
without the threat of violence and lawlessness that is being accept-
ed as normal in our sanctuary cities across our country. I encour-
age my colleagues to support this important piece of legislation.
And with that, Madam Chair, I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Does anyone else wish to speak on the bill
and the amendments? Seeing none, I would like to recognize the
Ranking Member to speak on the bill and the amendment.
Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I again offer
a statement on behalf of Ranking Member Velázquez, who cannot
be here because she is in a markup, opposing H.R. 2931, the legis-
lation to relocate SBA’s regional offices.
On March 20th, Ms. Velázquez, along with 23 of her colleagues,
sent a letter to Administrator Loeffler over her abrupt decision to
relocate six of the SBA’s regional offices and have yet to receive a
response. We would like to enter that letter into the record.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. So moved.
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Mr. MCGARVEY. Reorganizations of this magnitude shouldn’t
take place in the dark. The Government Accountability Office, an
independent, nonpartisan agency that examines how tax dollars
are spent, reported that a leading practice of effective agency reor-
ganizations includes the involvement of Congress, federal employ-
ees, and other key stakeholders. None of this is occurring.
Even more troubling, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
are shirking their oversight responsibilities. We have not held any
hearings on this bill or the administrator’s mass terminations for
that matter. It seems our majority doesn’t care how these staffing
cuts will impact our main street businesses, but I do.
Mr. Chairman, we need answers. We need to conduct oversight
and refrain from moving partisan messaging bills. Again, I would
ask that we have the administrator testify and explain these ac-
tions.
The bottom line is that this decision to relocate the regional of-
fices in areas with high concentrations of Democratic residents is
a blatant weaponization of the SBA for political gain. Targeting
these cities is clearly punitive, unjust, and counterproductive and
will harm millions of small businesses across the country who have
been suffering through the chaos and heavy handedness of this ad-
ministration.
This bill is another messaging bill that will cost taxpayers
money, accomplish nothing, and is aimed at distracting us from the
real issue at hand, the reckless chaos and rising costs of the presi-
dent’s first 100 days in office.
We need to set aside the political theater and focus on the issues
that matter most, lowering costs for small businesses, standing up
to big corporations, and investing in America.
I am opposed to this measure, and I urge my colleagues to vote
against it. I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you.
I now recognize myself for a statement on the bill and the
amendment. I rise in support of H.R. 2931, the Save SBA From
Sanctuary Cities Act introduced by my good friend Brad Finstad
from the great state of Minnesota.
President Biden inherited what was at the time the most secure
border in American history. However, as we know, he halted con-
struction on the border wall. He paused deportations. He termi-
nated the remain in Mexico program and fueled possibly the worst
border crisis in American history.
And meanwhile, sanctuary cities sought to shield criminals from
federal immigration laws putting citizens, small businesses, and
government offices at risk of violence.
President Trump took swift action to restore the rule of law and
make our communities safer, including by stopping the subsidiza-
tion of areas that refuse to comply with immigration laws. H.R.
2931 codifies these efforts to ensure that the SBA officials are not
put in danger due to these illegal sanctuary city policies.
Quite simply, these illegal sanctuary cities must follow the law
and put an end to this preventable violence. We must protect the
owners and customers on main street and SBA personnel. I urge
all of my colleagues to support this bill to make main street safe
again.
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Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Mr. CISNEROS. Madam Chairwoman, I have an amendment at
the desk.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. For what purpose does the gentleman—I am
sorry. There is an amendment at the desk. We will briefly pause
while staff distributes the amendment.
It has been distributed so the clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 2931——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, the amendment is consid-
ered as read.
I now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Cisneros, for
5 minutes on the amendment.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, but I don’t get
a great, the great state of California like everybody else? Thank
you. Look, my amendment seeks to ensure that taxpayers are not
only on the hook for a blatant attempt to weaponize SBA, as H.R.
2931 seeks to target major cities led by individuals who simply
have differing policy views from this administration.
People’s livelihoods are at stake and this administration is play-
ing games. Whatever vendetta prompted this legislation, it should
not be on the taxpayers’ dime. This administration claims to want
efficiency while taking away SBA resources from major cities with
a high concentration of millions of small businesses is far from effi-
cient.
This bill is being framed as wanting to make the moves to keep
SBA offices and small businesses safe. Let’s be honest. If you truly
cared about small businesses you would not be allowing this ad-
ministration to fire the workers in the field offices that support
small businesses directly.
You would not be trying to force the remaining staff to decide
whether to uproot their livelihood or to quit. You would not be okay
with those who have become experts in supporting small busi-
nesses to be forced out of the SBA. If you care we would hear from
the SBA on these proposed moves and the administrator would
come and testify.
Supporting small businesses should not be a partisan issue. We
have heard from hearings in this very committee on how targeting
SBA resources in major cities will be critically detrimental. The
SBA administrator has advocated for this bill in her press con-
ferences but yet she has yet to come to this committee to discuss
her plans or her vision for the SBA.
This bill is nothing more than an attack on Democratic-led cities
but it will hurt small businesses regardless of the party affiliation
of the business owner.
So, I hope my colleagues across the aisle will join me in sup-
porting my amendment to ensure that if there is any cost that is
too outrageously political—this is a political game. It cannot be
moved forward to hurt taxpayers or small businesses.
And with that, I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Is there further debate on the amendment?
I now recognize Mr. Finstad for 5 minutes.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me state very
clearly, no state or city is exempt from following federal law and
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by refusing to cooperate with federal immigration enforcement au-
thorities sanctuary cities allow unlawful and criminal aliens to be
released onto the streets.
Federal taxpayers’ dollars will be saved by preventing them from
subsidizing sanctuary city policies which undermine federal law
and increase public safety risk to their communities and to the
very folks that the SBA is serving.
I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment, and I yield
back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Does anyone else have further debate on the
amendment?
Ms. MCIVER. Madam Chair, I would like to yield my time to my
colleague.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr. Cisneros is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, the responsi-
bility of the Small Business Administration is supporting and help-
ing small business. It is not the Department of Homeland Security.
It is not the Immigration and Customs Service. It is not the re-
sponsibility to enforce immigration laws of the SBA.
The SBA should be focused on what its task is and that is sup-
porting small businesses. And to remove resources out of cities sim-
ply because they are led by Democratic leadership is inefficient and
it is going to hurt businesses and it is going to hurt business own-
ers regardless of their party affiliation. And we cannot allow that
to happen.
If this committee truly supports, and we are working in a bipar-
tisan matter, we will continue to support small businesses no mat-
ter where they are, main street and small town America, rural
America, and in our urban cities. That is our responsibility and
that is what we should be focused on.
Let Homeland Security worry about immigration. Let us worry
about small business, and with that, I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Representative LaLota from the okay state of
New York is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. LALOTA. Boo. Everybody boo the Chairwoman, please. A
sanctuary city or a sanctuary state is one who overtly intentionally
acts contrary to federal immigration law, specifically telling their
officers, agents, and agencies do not cooperate with the federal gov-
ernment on matters of immigration law. Do not hand over any
records. Do not share the information. Do not facilitate the enforce-
ment of our federal immigration law. This is how we got a migrant
crisis, folks.
Not only the Biden open border that allowed 10 million plus folks
into the country but the incentive to get to a sanctuary city like
New York City is the reason we had a huge migrant crisis with
this administration, and the people of the country want us to end.
Part of that is removing the incentive and creating an oppor-
tunity for governments to reverse their policies. I come from New
York, which to some is just an okay state, and maybe it is just
okay because we don’t in New York enforce federal immigration
laws in the five boroughs. And that is a reason why so many folks
not only cross the border but came to New York for all the free
stuff, the free hotels, the free healthcare, and the lack of immigra-
tion enforcement in places like New York.
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This bill gives an opportunity for New York City policymakers to
tell their constituents, hey, listen, I need to make a choice back to
help the Feds enforce immigration laws because it is the right
thing to do and because now Congress and the administration are
exerting some leverage over us. This is what we need to do to force
the hands of policymakers who continue to choose to support illegal
immigration over the safety and security of folks.
You want to help small business? Help the customers not be
afraid of being robbed at gunpoint by an illegal immigrant like they
are doing across our great country. This bill is right. It deserves
our support. It deserves bipartisan support so that we can have
safety and security in our great country.
I yield.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Is there further debate on the amendment?
So, I now recognize Representative McGarvey from the great
state of Kentucky for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman and I offer
remarks on behalf of our Ranking Member Ms. Velázquez, who
can’t be here because of a markup. Thank you to the Chairwoman.
Thank you to my colleague Mr. Cisneros for offering this amend-
ment to ensure that the SBA considers the cost to the taxpayer
when making decisions based on local immigration policies rather
than on the needs of 34 million small businesses.
Like many of the bills we are considering today, this is a mes-
saging bill that will have real consequences for small businesses
and American taxpayers. While we should not have to direct the
SBA to consider—while we should not have to direct SBA to con-
sider the cost associated with their partisan agenda, this amend-
ment is necessary to ensure that they do.
The announcement of the relocation of these offices was reckless
and done without a plan, input from small businesses, or even a
cost analysis.
Mr. Cisneros’ amendment is a step to protect taxpayer dollars
and small businesses’ access to the SBA services. I urge all of my
colleagues to support it and oppose the final bill.
Ms. Chairwoman, I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. So, I now recognize myself for 5 minutes. We
must ensure that SBA personnel and their small business clients
are not forced to work where sanctuary city policies have increased
the threat of violence. We can’t pause. We can’t delay on this.
We have to make sure that they are getting the safety from cities
that are willing to actually enforce laws. And I urge Members to
vote no on this amendment.
The question now occurs on the amendment offered by the gen-
tleman from the ‘‘at least we have good weather’’ state of Cali-
fornia, Mr. Cisneros.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Mr. CISNEROS. Madam Chair, I request a recorded vote.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested and a roll
call vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are
postponed.
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Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment? Are we done?
There is an amendment at the desk, and we will pause briefly
while staff distributes the amendment.
So, the clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, the amendment is consid-
ered as read.
I now recognize the gentleman from Kentucky for 5 minutes on
the amendment.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I offer Ms.
Velázquez’s amendment because she cannot be in the room right
now. She is at a markup.
The SBA’s announcement that they will relocate certain offices
based on local immigration policies rather than the interests of
small businesses should not have come as a surprise but it did.
There was limited, if any, small business or stakeholder involve-
ment in the decision and there appears to be no plan in place or
analysis conducted around closing or moving offices. And the com-
mittee has not been provided information or held a hearing on this
announcement.
Again and again our requests for information have gone ignored
and unanswered. This is simply unacceptable.
Accordingly, we must conduct oversight through the legislative
process. Ms. Velázquez’s amendment would require that this infor-
mation be provided to Congress prior to SBA implementing any
rash relocation decisions with negative consequences for certain
small businesses. I urge all of my colleagues to support this amend-
ment, and I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Is there further debate on the amendment?
I now recognize Mr. Finstad for 5 minutes.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Madam Chair. This amendment will
unnecessarily delay the implementation of this bill. The threats
posed by criminal illegal aliens in sanctuary cities is very real. As
a reminder of this fact consider what has happened earlier this
month in New York City.
U.S. Immigration and Custom Enforcement arrested over 200
criminal illegal aliens. The majority of these illegal aliens had
criminal histories for crimes like manslaughter, rape, assault, drug
trafficking, sex assault against minors.
Unnecessary delays in office relocation exposes SBA employees
and customers to the very real danger created by sanctuary city
policies, and I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Is there further debate on the amendment?
So, I now recognize myself. The reality is that across America
radical sanctuary city policies have caused havoc in these commu-
nities. We have a duty to protect SBA employees’ access to safer
workplaces without delay. I urge my colleagues to vote on this
amendment.
The question now occurs on the amendment offered by the gen-
tlewoman and Ranking Member Velázquez.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
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In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Mr. MCGARVEY. I request a roll call vote.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested. A roll
call vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are
postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment? The question now
occurs on the adoption of the substitute amendment offered to H.R.
2931 by Mr. Finstad.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion the Chair, the ayes have it. The amendment in the
nature of a substitute to H.R. 2931 is adopted.
The question is now on favorably reporting H.R. 2931, as amend-
ed, to the House.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it and it——
Mr. FINSTAD. Madam Chair?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Yes.
Mr. FINSTAD. Could I ask for recorded vote, please?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested. A roll
call vote is ordered. Pursuant to committee rule 13 and House rule
11, further proceedings on the bill are postponed.
H.R. 2987
The committee now moves to consideration of H.R. 2987, the
CEASE Act, introduced by Representative Bresnahan from the
great state of Pennsylvania.
The clerk will report the bill.
The CLERK. H.R. 2987, a bill to amend the Small Business——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, H.R. 2987 is considered as
read and open for amendment.
The bill sponsor, Mr. Bresnahan, has an amendment in the na-
ture of a substitute at the desk. The amendment has been distrib-
uted in advance.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment in the nature of substitute——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, the amendment is consid-
ered as read and the substitute will be considered as base text for
the purposes of further amendment.
I now recognize the sponsor of the bill and the amendment, Mr.
Bresnahan, for 5 minutes.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Madam Chair. My bill, Capping
Excessive Awarding of SBLC Entrants Act, or the CEASE Act, re-
stores a vital piece integrity to the flagship SBA 7(a) loan program.
The SBA is authorized to issue government-backed 7(a) loans
through certified depository institutions like banks and credit
unions, as well as certified non-bank lenders like FinTech compa-
nies.
Unlike certified depository institutions, whose primary regulator
is the Federal Reserve, the non-bank SBLCs are primarily regu-
lated by the SBA, meaning they are not subject to the same regula-
tions and requirements.
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Together, the limited number of SBLCs and prudent lending
standards that used to be in place at the SBA were necessary
guardrails to ensure that the 7(a) program remained zero subsidy,
costing taxpayers zero dollars.
The SBA had its own concerns that it did not have the oversight
capabilities to monitor and regulate an unlimited number of
SBLCs, yet the Biden-Harris administration sought to expand the
number of SBLC licenses while also lowering lending standards
and loosening underwriting criteria in the 7(a) program.
Expanding SBLC licenses when the SBA itself acknowledged
that it is unequipped to regulate additional for-profit, non-bank
lenders is problematic. That is why my legislation is so important
to ensure that the SBA is not addressing excessive SBLCs that it
cannot properly regulate. We cannot continue giving the federal
government ways to abuse taxpayer dollars.
I thank the Administrator Loeffler for taking swift action and re-
turning prudent lending standards to the 7(a) program. She is
working to ensure small businesses will continue to have access to
this valuable resource.
Combined with the CEASE Act, those efforts will return the SBA
to its proper oversight capabilities and ensure that federally regu-
lated lenders, such as community banks, remain a fundamental pil-
lar of 7(a) lending.
This bill was thoughtfully drafted and encompasses the original
14 SBLCs and two additional SBLCs licensed in 2024 after the
Biden era rule changed. No existing SBLC licenses would be re-
voked as part of this bill.
I ask my colleagues to vote yes on this practical and sensible bill.
Thank you and I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. I now recognize the Ranking Member to
speak on the bill and the amendment.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I want to
offer a statement on behalf of Ms. Velázquez. H.R. 2987 places a
statutory moratorium on the number of SBLC licenses that can be
issued by the SBA at the currently issued number of 16.
SBLCs are non-depository lending institutions that are author-
ized by the SBA to make 7(a) loans nationwide up to the pro-
grammatic cap of $5 million per small business.
There has been bipartisan concern about the SBA’s ability to
issue additional SBLC licenses on this committee for more than 2
years. Ms. Velázquez first expressed concern about the SBA’s deci-
sion to amend its regulations to lift its previous moratorium on the
licensing of new SBLCs after the SBA made the announcement as
part of its proposed SBLC rule in April of 2023.
Prior to the finalization of the SBLC rule, the SBA had placed
a moratorium on licensing new SBLCs since 1982, as it believed it
did not have the necessary resources to properly supervise any new
entrants into the program.
Although there is no cap on the number of licenses that can be
issued under the SBLC rule, in a proposed rule the SBA stated
that based on the oversight capacity it had at that time it believed
it had the ability to license and supervise three new SBLCs.
Given the controversy and upheaval associated with the SBA’s
decision to award an SBLC license to the FinTech company Fund-
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ing Circle, I believe it is worth exploring the necessity to statutorily
codify the number of SBLC licenses at the currently issued number
of 16.
However, the text of H.R. 2987 is silent as to the moratorium’s
applicability to currently existing community advantage SBLC li-
censes. The program began as a pilot program in 2011 and has
been hugely successful in facilitating smaller dollar loans to small
businesses that are new or located in an underserved community.
As part of the SBLC rule in 2023, the SBA transitioned the CA
program from its original form as a pilot to a specifically des-
ignated community advantage SBLC license program. CA lenders
who continue to be interested in making loans under the program
are required to register with the SBA as CA SBLCs. Thus far, 143
CA lenders have registered with the SBA as CA SBLCs.
In fiscal year 2024, the community advantage program issued
1,118 loans valued at more than $196 million with an average loan
size of approximately $175,700. I believe the CA program needs to
continue to grow and lenders with an interest in participating in
the program need to be awarded a CA SBLC license if they meet
all the programmatic requirements for licensure.
I am concerned that H.R. 2987’s textual silence as to the SBLC
moratorium’s applicability to the CA SBLC program could be inter-
preted by SBA during this administration or a future administra-
tion as directed to the SBA to limit the number of CA SBLC li-
censes or even shut down the program altogether, a concern CA in-
dustry participants share and have expressed as well.
The standard practice would be for outstanding questions associ-
ated with legislative text to be answered as part of a committee
hearing with the SBA leadership or industry participants, yet no
such hearing on this legislation has been held.
Moreover, H.R. 2987 wasn’t even introduced until last Thursday,
providing our side of the aisle without sufficient time to speak with
the SBA, all necessary industry partners, and engage in the due
diligence review required to support the legislation.
So while I remain concerned about the SBA’s ability to award an
unlimited number of new SBLC licenses, central questions regard-
ing the legislation’s text remain and therefore I cannot support the
legislation in its current form. I urge my colleagues to vote no on
the bill, and I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you. I now recognize myself to speak
in support of this legislation. H.R. 2987, the CEASE Act, is the so-
lution to an irresponsible world change that was made by the
Biden-Harris SBA last year, under last Congress, when it an-
nounced the decision to lift a 40-year moratorium on licensing new
SBLCs to participate in flagship 7(a) programs.
The moratorium was in place due to the SBA’s own recognition
of its limitations to prudently regulate and oversee non-depository
lenders within a nationwide 7(a) lending platform.
Both Members of the House and the Senate expressed concerns
about the SBA’s capacity to serve as the primary regulator for ad-
ditional SBLCs, yet the Biden-Harris SBA went full steam ahead
and even awarded an SBLC license to an entity called Funding Cir-
cle, which is an entity that was not prepared nor qualified to take
on the license.
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That entity also held a central role in lobbying the Biden-Harris
administration to lift the SBLC moratorium. And while the Fund-
ing Circle license was surrendered before it could make a 7(a) loan,
we cannot allow potentially negligent actors to participate in gov-
ernment-backed lending and ultimately put taxpayer dollars at
risk.
These decisions pointed to a fundamental failure in the Biden-
Harris SBA’s vetting of applicants for the SBLC licenses and fur-
ther reinforced the bipartisan concerns raised about the SBA’s lim-
ited oversight capacity.
This common sense legislation is a step toward restoring the in-
tegrity of the 7(a) program and ensures responsible oversight for
the non-federally regulated lenders that participate.
I thank Representative Bresnahan for introducing this legisla-
tion, and I urge all Members to vote yes. I urge all of my colleagues
to support this bill.
Does anyone wish to offer an amendment? So, the question now
occurs on the adoption of the substitute amendment offered to H.R.
2987 by Mr. Bresnahan.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion the Chair, the ayes have it. The amendment in the
nature of a substitute to H.R. 2987 is adopted.
The question is now on favorably reporting H.R. 2987, as amend-
ed, to the House.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it and H.R. 2987, as
amended——
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Madam Chair, I request a recorded vote.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested and a roll
call vote is ordered. Pursuant to committee rule 13 and House rule
11, further proceedings on the bill are postponed.
H.R. 2965
The committee now moves to consideration of H.R. 2965, the
Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act of 2025, introduced by
Representative Van Duyne from the great state of Texas.
The clerk will report the bill.
The CLERK. H.R. 2965——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, H.R. 2965 is considered as
read and open for the amendments. And the bill’s sponsor has an
amendment in the nature of a substitute at the desk and the
amendment has been distributed in advance.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment in the nature of——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, the amendment is consid-
ered as read and the substitute will be considered as base text for
the purposes of further amendment.
I now recognize myself as the sponsor of this bill and the amend-
ment for a 5-minute statement. In my first year as a Member on
this committee, we heard from a witness, and it was a very power-
ful testimony. He held up a three-ring binder. It was stuffed full
of regulations that they were forced to comply with. I would be
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afraid to see what the binder looks like today after 4 years of the
Biden regime.
In the years following that hearing, I have continued to hear
from countless small business owners in north Texas about the
overwhelming regulatory environment that they face. From day one
the Trump administration has worked to undo this regulatory on-
slaught that agencies have imposed on main street, launching bold
efforts like this 10 to 1 deregulation initiative.
My bill works in lockstep with President Trump’s deregulatory
agenda and it holds our federal agencies accountable by requiring
them to display the true cost of the regulations imposed on small
businesses.
I hope that my colleagues from both sides of the aisle could agree
with me when I say that the House Committee on Small Business
is committed to prioritizing the needs of our nation’s job creators
and their employees. That starts with lessening the red tape that
small businesses have to file in order to survive.
Specifically, my bill requires the SBA to ensure that for each fis-
cal year the cost of its own rulemaking is not greater than zero dol-
lars. Furthermore, it requires the SBA to publish a report on regu-
lations issued by other federal agencies that impact small busi-
nesses.
I urge support for this legislation, and I yield back.
Does anyone else wish to speak on the bill and the amendments?
I would like to recognize the Ranking Member to speak on the
bill and the amendment for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I offer a
statement from our Ranking Member Ms. Velázquez. I am opposed
to H.R. 2965, the Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act of
2025. Throughout my tenure on the committee I have worked with
my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to put forth thoughtful bi-
partisan bills that will make lives easier for small business owners.
Unfortunately, this bill is a messaging bill designed to distract
the American public from the harm the Trump administration is
inflicting on small businesses with the on again, off again tariff pol-
icy and the intentional tanking of the economy.
This bill mandating a zero or negative regulatory budget for SBA
may sound good on the surface, but it would have the practical ef-
fect of limiting the SBA from issuing any rules even if the benefits
outweigh the costs. SBA needs to issue regulations to update pro-
grams, issue disaster regulations, and even reduce recordkeeping
requirements. That is good government practice that the majority
doesn’t seem to understand.
The majority also fails to realize that agencies may be able to es-
timate the cost of a regulation but they do not have hard data on
the costs that are imposed. This bill would require the SBA to
make assumptions that could turn out to be incorrect. There is
nothing in the bill that clarifies how the agency is to implement a
regulatory budget and is therefore impractical.
Finally, the bill does not include an exception for national emer-
gencies, meaning that if this bill had been enacted before the pan-
demic small businesses across the country might not have received
PPP assistance in a timely manner, if they received it at all. For
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these reasons, I will not be able to lend my support to the Small
Business Regulatory Reduction Act.
Thank you and I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Does anyone else wish to offer an amend-
ment?
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Madam Chair?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. For what purpose does the gentleman seek
recognition?
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I have an amendment at the desk.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. There is amendment at the desk, and we will
briefly pause while staff distributes the amendments. The amend-
ment has been distributed.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, the amendment is consid-
ered as read.
I now recognize Mr. Olszewski for 5 minutes on the amendment.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I am
pleased to offer an amendment to H.R. 2965 by, as I have pre-
viously said in past committee hearings, I am happy to work to-
gether on fixing our regulatory system, but I also understand the
challenges that small businesses face every day.
They need to make payroll, hire talented people, brand their
product, work towards inclusion of their workers, provide benefits
for their employees, and market their services. As a former county
executive and local leader, I know that poorly crafted regulations,
whether at the federal, state, or local level can be burdensome for
small businesses.
That is why Congress enacted the Regulatory Flexibility Act, or
RFA, which requires federal agencies to work with the Small Busi-
ness Administration’s Office of Advocacy to gather input from small
business during the rulemaking process and to advocate for them
with federal agencies, essentially leveling the playing field for
small businesses.
This bill mandates a zero or negative regulatory budget for SBA,
having the practical effect of limiting the SBA from issuing any
rules despite the benefits outweighing the costs.
In light of that, even a coalition of sensible safeguards comprised
of more than 200 labor, scientific research, good government, faith,
community, health, environmental, and public interest groups is
opposed, stating the bill is unworkable and inherently flawed.
Throughout my short time in this committee I have heard bipar-
tisan support surrounding both workforce development programs
and rural small business programs, so I urge my colleagues to sup-
port an amendment that carves out an exemption for these pro-
grams because haphazardly nullifying and rolling back regulations
won’t solve the problem.
The bill holds the potential to harm small businesses, consumers,
and the environment. If we are going to pass the bill out of this
committee, I hope we can at least include this amendment.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. The Chairwoman now recognizes Ranking
Member for 5 minutes.
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Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I support
Dr. Olszewski’s amendment, and I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. All right. I now recognize myself for 5 min-
utes. The solution cannot be more government spending and ex-
panded regulation. The focus should be on providing incentives
that allow the private sector to invest in workforce training and de-
velopment rather than relying on the government to create new
rules and programs.
Our goal should be to empower rural entrepreneurs with tax re-
lief, regulatory elimination, and access to capital, which will allow
them to grow their businesses and hire more workers without an
increase in government spending or bureaucratic overhead.
My bill does that. It ensures a full and accurate accounting for
regulatory costs imposed on small businesses, including those in
rural communities. I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amend-
ment.
Is there further debate on the amendment? So, the question now
occurs on the amendment offered by the gentleman Mr. Olszewski
from Maryland.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Yes. Madam Chair?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested and a roll
call vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are
postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Ms. MORRISON. Madam Chair, I have an amendment at the
desk.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. For what purposes does the—oh, there is an
amendment at the desk. We will briefly pause while staff distrib-
utes the amendment.
So, the clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Without objection, the amendment is consid-
ered as read.
I now recognize Representative from Minnesota, Representative
Morrison for 5 minutes on the amendment.
Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Madam Chair. My amendment is
a simple one. It would carve out rules that benefit veterans.
I agree that to protect our small businesses we must ensure that
new regulations don’t present unnecessary burdens to them, how-
ever, this rigid legislation creates an unreasonable cap that could
prevent the enactment of regulations designed to benefit specific
groups of people that we have a duty to look out for, such as vet-
erans.
I again urge my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to stand up
for those who have served our country and support this amend-
ment.
Thank you Madam Chair. I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. The Chair now recognizes the Ranking Mem-
ber for 5 minutes.
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Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
And I applaud Dr. Morrison for offering an amendment to carve
out rules benefiting veterans from the regulatory budget. Time and
again we have heard from veterans about the importance of the
SBA’s programs to their small businesses and regulatory enhance-
ments are part of the process of addressing the very needs of vet-
erans.
A regulatory budget will have the practical effect of grinding the
SBA rulemaking to halt and harm small businesses. I support this
exception for our nation’s veterans and thank Dr. Morrison for of-
fering the amendment. Simply, we owe a lot to our nation’s vet-
erans and cannot take any chances with the unintended con-
sequences a regulatory budget would have at the SBA.
I yield back.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much.
And I now recognize myself for 5 minutes, and I absolutely agree
we owe a number of platitudes and thanks and benefits to our vet-
erans. And one of the reasons why when I go home we have a num-
ber of different roundtables specifically with veterans. Not one vet-
eran have I talked to, especially those who are interested in start-
ing small businesses or who own small businesses, ask for more
government regulations.
In fact, the best way to help veteran small businesses thrive is
now by expanding regulatory costs but by reducing them. So in-
stead of adding carve-outs for regulatory costs, we should focus on
removing the red tape, on cutting unnecessary regulations, and en-
suring that veteran business owners can operate with greater flexi-
bility at their greatest potential.
I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
Is there further debate on the amendment? So, the question now
occurs on the amendment offered by the gentlewoman from Min-
nesota.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Ms. MORRISON. Madam Chair, I would like to request a re-
corded vote.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested. A roll
call vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are
postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment? Okay, nobody?
So, the question now occurs on the adoption of the substitute
amendment offered to H.R. 2965 by Representative Van Duyne.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. The amendment in
the nature of a substitute to H.R. 2965 is adopted.
The question is now on favorably reporting H.R. 2965 as amend-
ed to the House.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it.
Mr. FINSTAD. Madam Chair, could I request a recorded vote?
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Ms. VAN DUYNE. A recorded vote has been requested. A roll
call vote is ordered. Pursuant to committee rule 13 and the House
rule 11, further proceedings on the bill are postponed.
Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] Okay. I want to thank Con-
gresswoman Van Duyne for filling in for me. Thank you very much.
H.R. 1163
The committee now moves into consideration of H.R. 1163, the
Prove It Act of 2025 introduced by Representative Finstad from the
great state of Minnesota.
The clerk will report the bill.
The CLERK. H.R. 1163, a bill to amend title 5——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 1163 is consid-
ered as read and open for the amendment. The bill sponsor, Mr.
Finstad, has an amendment in the nature of a substitute at the
desk. The amendment has been distributed in advance.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment in the nature of a substitute to
H.R.——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read and the substitute will be considered as base text
for the purpose of further amendment.
I now recognize the sponsor of the bill and the amendment, Mr.
Finstad, for his statement on the bill and the amendment.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Chairman Williams. Over the last 4
years, the Biden administration added $1.8 trillion in new regu-
latory compliance costs and 356 million hours of paperwork to
small businesses, ushering in the most burdensome regulatory en-
vironment in history.
In 1980, Congress passed the Regulatory Flexibility Act to pro-
tect small businesses from these burdens. Unfortunately, the Biden
administration disregarded the law in favor of pushing a far left
agenda that burdened our small business community.
Government red tape has made it harder and more costly for
Americans to start a business and for many hindering their oppor-
tunity to achieve the American dream. For too long, D.C. bureau-
crats have abused their regulatory power, trampling over the small
businesses that are the backbone of our economy.
My legislation, the Prove It Act, gives teeth to an already exist-
ing law, the Regulatory Flexibility Act. Under the Regulatory Flexi-
bility Act, agencies are required to complete an initial and final
analysis of their regulations and certify that they will not have a
significant impact on a substantial number of small entities.
In many cases, agencies have failed to meet the standards of the
Regulatory Flexibility Act and have left small business owners
across our country with the short end of the stick.
The Prove It Act would require federal agencies to analyze both
the direct and indirect costs their regulations would have on small
entities, create a way for small businesses to petition their chief
advocate in government to review federal agencies’ work, and prove
that they are fully compliant with existing laws. If an agency fails
to comply with the review process, small businesses then would be
exempt from the regulation in question.
The Prove It Act would also ensure that small businesses can
easily access pre-existing guidance documents via regulations.gov
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and give teeth to the retrospective review by requiring any regula-
tion that agencies fail to perform from the already required tenure
respective review to be nullified.
This legislation passed the House of Representatives and the
118th Congress with bipartisan support and has received endorse-
ment from numerous organizations, including the National Federa-
tion of Independent Businesses, the Associated Builders and Con-
tractors, the U.S. Chamber, and Job Creators Network, and many
other organizations that support main street businesses across this
country.
This common sense bill gives our hard-working American small
business owners a larger voice in the regulatory process. I would
like to thank all the Members of this committee and across Con-
gress who in a bipartisan way have partnered with me on this im-
portant piece of legislation. And I urge the Members of this com-
mittee to vote in favor and support of the Prove It Act.
And with that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
And does anyone else wish to speak on the bill and the amend-
ment? Okay. Seeing none, I would like to recognize the Ranking
Member to speak on the bill and the amendment.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I offer comments
from our Ranking Member Ms. Velázquez. I am opposed to H.R.
1163, the Prove It Act. We have held numerous hearings in this
committee on regulations, and I think we can all agree and part
of the role of our committee is to recognize the impact they have
on small employers and work to find ways to balance the shared
goal of minimizing the burdens and achieving the intended effects
of regulations.
We have heard from regulatory experts that agencies have been
better about considering the impact of their rules on small entities
since the passage of the Regulatory Flexibility Act. The Office of
Advocacy has been working diligently to educate and train rule-
writing staff about their responsibilities, and they are collaborating
with agencies to make SBREFA panels more effective and
impactful.
We have seen the fruits of their labor. The analysis agencies are
conducting has improved significantly. In fact, GAO issued a report
on which it found agencies were generally complying with the RFA.
They were just in need of more training.
But this bill disregards the meaningful progress that has already
been made. Rather than building on that progress to better serve
the interests of small employers, it threatens to bring our rule-
making process to a grinding halt.
The bottom line is this bill hands large companies a powerful
new tool to delay and weaken rules, creating uncertainty, stalling
progress, and ultimately harming the very small businesses it
claims to protect.
Let me take a minute to go through the bill. First, it allows any
group that claims to represent small businesses to petition advo-
cacy to block, delay, or weaken rules that it doesn’t like. I find it
particularly troubling large organizations like the Chamber of
Commerce could file a petition without never identifying the small
business they represent.
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Even more concerning these organizations could submit multiple
petitions on behalf of any unnamed small business within their
network. This means a small employer that came into compliance
with a lack of transparency in the process enables these organiza-
tions to back on behalf of powerful companies while claiming to
represent small businesses, all without accountability.
But most concerning is the new ability of the chief counsel to
have broad and unchecked authority to determine that a rule is no
longer effective if an agency fails to conduct a retrospective review.
This means a small employer that came into compliance with an
existing rule could see it eliminated and then possibly reinstated
sometime in the future. This is counterproductive to what my col-
leagues state they are trying to achieve.
Put simply, this bill is unworkable. If enacted, advocacy would
need to double its staff, and no surprise, this bill provides zero ad-
ditional resources. CBO estimates that agencies and advocacy will
need an additional $40 million over the next 5 years to implement
this act, and that doesn’t include the $17 million it will add to the
federal deficit.
Small employers need certainty and this bill fails to provide it.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
And I now recognize myself for a statement on the bill and the
amendment. I rise in support of H.R. 1163, the Prove It Act of
2025, introduced by my friend Representative Finstad from the
great state of Minnesota.
Last Congress’ committee investigated whether the federal gov-
ernment protects small businesses when making regulations.
Unsurprisingly, our regulatory reform act report proved that the
agencies often skirt around laws put in place to protect small busi-
nesses from burdensome regulatory costs.
This coupled with the direct attack on small business through
the regulatory onslaught by the Biden-Harris administration
threatened the livelihood of countless entrepreneurs throughout the
country. H.R. 1163, the Prove It Act, would give small businesses
the power to fight back and ensure that their voices are heard
throughout the rulemaking process.
This legislation is widely supported by small business and fur-
thers President Trump’s deregulation agenda, so I am proud to
support this bill. And I hope my colleagues agree that it is time to
reduce regulatory burdens so that small businesses can do what
they do best, provide for their customers.
So, does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Ms. GOODLANDER. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at
the desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay, so approved. Is there an amend-
ment at the desk? We could briefly pause and we will distribute it
around to the rest of us here.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 1163——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read.
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I now recognize Ms. Goodlander for 5 minutes on the amend-
ment.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a simple
amendment, a straightforward amendment that would require any
petitioner under the Prove It Act to actually prove that they are
a small business. So why does this matter?
Look, as I read this bill I am very concerned that it could be eas-
ily exploited by big corporations, the same big corporations that are
about to get a big tax break. It could be exploited because big cor-
porations have well-oiled lobbying machines that could file peti-
tions under this act through their corporate lobbyists.
So, if you care, and I believe that the Members of this committee
do, about protecting real small businesses, the small businesses in
our community and preventing their voices from being drowned out
by big corporations and a sea of corporate lobbyists, I urge you to
support this straightforward, common sense amendment.
And I would just point out, Mr. Chairman, this amendment is of-
fered in the same basic spirit that so many of the amendments
have been offered this morning, that we want to make the Small
Business Administration actually work for hard-working small
businesses in our districts.
To do that, though, we really need transparency. We need an-
swers to basic questions that so many of us have asked. You know,
in my home state of New Hampshire we have seen a reduction in
the workforce of the Small Business Administration by nearly 50
percent. I am all about bringing the SBA back to main street, but
that is not what is happening in the last 100 days.
At the same time we have seen random and unexplained firings
on some of the most important boards that the SBA has created,
including the Small Business Regulatory Fairness Act Board. Two
of my constituents have been summarily fired without any reason
from boards that make the Small Business Administration work
better for hard-working small businesses.
You know, one of my constituents, Melissa Florio from Albany,
New Hampshire, was appointed to a 3-year term on the Small
Business Regulatory Fairness Board for region 1.
She started her company, Ambix Manufacturing, a plastics engi-
neering and manufacturing company during the Great Recession.
She is hard-working. She has run a small business.
She is serving on this board that is designed to do exactly what
I think we all want to see, cutting red tape, making the SBA work
better for small businesses. She was randomly fired without expla-
nation.
And I want to enter into the record, Mr. Chairman, yet another
letter that I have sent to Administrator Loeffler asking for answers
to basic questions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you. You know, I would just say that
in order to make the SBA work better we need transparency. It is
what good government is all about.
With that, I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
Is there further debate on the amendment?
Mr. Finstad from Minnesota.
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Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. In this committee room
just in the last few weeks we have heard from small businesses all
over this country,.
And one of the questions that I asked a few different times to
a few of those different small business owners is when it comes to
the regulatory climate of this country and when it comes to the
permitting and the legal work that their small businesses find
themselves in anytime they are interacting within government,
who do they go to?
And it was told to me over and over again that these small busi-
nesses act as the owner, the CFO, the CEO, the janitor, the sched-
uler, the chief broom operator, and they did not have a stable
worth of compliance officers or regulatory folks that can deal with
some of these issues and the regulatory hoops and loops that our
government puts on them.
And so they do find value in groups like the NFIB and the
Chamber and others because of that help that those groups can
provide. So, this amendment imposes more unnecessary adminis-
trative burdens on petitioners, potentially deterring small busi-
nesses that are already stretched thin and busy and associations
and trade groups from filing petitions on behalf of these small busi-
nesses.
It also undermines the very purpose of the bill, which is to give
small businesses a meaningful voice in the regulatory process. And
so with that being said, I urge my colleagues to vote no on this
amendment.
And I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize the Ranking Member for
5 minutes.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As stated repeat-
edly, this committee has heard concerns that the RFA has become
a tool for powerful companies to obstruct the regulatory process.
Being transparent is not a regulatory burden.
We need to come clean with the American people. The Prove It
Act would allow large organizations representing the interests of
small entities to challenge the agencies’ regulatory flexibility anal-
ysis without requiring them to identify which small business they
purport to represent or how those small businesses will be harmed.
My colleague Ms. Goodlander is offering a common sense amend-
ment that will bring transparency to the process. Why are we so
afraid of transparency? It is what good government is all about.
I urge all of my colleagues to support this amendment.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
Is there further debate on the amendment?
Okay. I will move to strike the last word. And this amendment
requests petitioners to produce more information than necessary. I
urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
The question now occurs on the amendment offered by the
gentlelady from New Hampshire.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
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Ms. GOODLANDER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to move for a
recorded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. A recorded vote has been re-
quested. A roll call vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the
amendment are postponed.
Now, does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Mr. MCGARVEY. I would like to offer an amendment, Mr. Chair-
man.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman is recognized. There is an
amendment at the desk and we will briefly pause while staff dis-
tributes the amendment. We are good? Okay.
Okay. The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 1163——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read.
And I now recognize the gentleman from Kentucky, Mr.
McGarvey, for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Prove It Act
was a bad idea when Republicans forced it through this committee
last Congress and it is an even worse idea today. Now, the bill
hasn’t changed. It is the same unworkable policy that would em-
power the country’s biggest corporations to paralyze all federal
rulemaking under the guise of protecting small businesses.
It is the context of what else is happening today that makes this
bill so much worse because as we sit here in the Small Business
Committee right now other committees throughout the House are
also meeting to mark up the disastrous Republican budget, a budg-
et that will steal from working people and our children’s futures to
make the richest Americans even richer and the most profitable
corporations continuing to get those profits.
They are meeting in financial services. Next week it will be En-
ergy and Commerce and Agriculture. Republicans have promised to
make over a trillion dollars of cuts to health insurance and hunger
programs, all to pay for tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. That
is why this bill is an even worse idea today.
For the Republicans it is not enough to give our biggest corpora-
tions and wealthiest individuals a massive tax break instead of giv-
ing one to you. They want big business now to have a veto over fed-
eral policy, too.
My amendment is simple. It creates, I am sorry. In the Budget
Committee I offered amendments to the reconciliation bill to try
and protect veterans from some of these most painful Republican
cuts. Our Republican colleagues rejected those amendments, but I
will try here, too.
So, my amendment is simple. It creates an exemption from this
bill for any rulemaking that an agency finds will have a substantial
beneficial impact on veterans. So, if Republicans are so intent on
cutting Medicaid, which 10 percent of veterans rely on, or ACA
subsidies, which help another 5 percent of veterans get health care,
or SNAP, which puts food on the table for over 1 million veterans,
then we should at least protect them from the damage of the Prove
It Act.
I urge my colleagues to support this amendment and yield back.
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Mr. SCHMIDT. [Presiding.] Is there further debate on the
amendment?
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr.
Finstad.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. This amendment allows
agencies to bypass the crucial checks and balances which create ex-
emptions that undermine transparency and accountability. Remov-
ing the safeguard risks agencies bypassing important due diligence
measures, which could lead to unintended consequences.
We must ensure that all rules go through the proper due dili-
gence to protect small businesses and the taxpayers of this country,
and this amendment weakens that effort. I urge my colleagues to
join me in voting no on this amendment.
And with that, I yield back.
Mr. SCHMIDT. The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member for 5
minutes.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Throughout our
history American veterans have put their lives on the line in de-
fense of our homeland. Each and every day they make enough in-
numerable sacrifices to serve our country. That is why I am strong-
ly supporting Mr. McGarvey’s amendment, which will carve out an
exemption for rules that benefit veterans.
It is vital that these rules are not delayed by special interests.
We owe this much to our nation’s veterans. My colleague Mr.
McGarvey has been a tireless advocate, both on this committee and
the Veterans Affairs Committee. His amendment ties together both
aspects of his work, and I am proud to lend my voice and vote in
favor of it.
I urge all my colleagues to support this amendment. And I yield
back.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Is there further debate on the amendment?
Hearing none, I move to strike the last word. The Prove It Act
helps to ensure that small businesses have the ability to hold agen-
cies accountable. We can’t achieve this without the critical checks
and balances that the base text provides. I urge my colleagues to
vote no on this amendment.
The question now occurs on the amendment offered by the gen-
tleman from Kentucky.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Mr. MCGARVEY. I ask for a recorded vote, Mr. Chair.
Mr. SCHMIDT. A recorded vote has been requested. A roll call
vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are post-
poned.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. SCHMIDT. The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I have an amendment at the desk.
Mr. SCHMIDT. There is an amendment at the desk. We will
briefly pause while the staff distributes the amendment.
The clerk will report the amendment.
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The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute——
Mr. SCHMIDT. Without objection, the amendment is considered
as read.
I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes on the
amendment.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This amendment
will strike the numerous analytical procedures in the Prove It Act
that will enable big corporations to roll back rules and put small
businesses on uneven ground.
In its place, advocacy will be required to train agencies on how
to comply with the law. The training programs have made a signifi-
cant difference in the rule writing process and requiring ongoing
training will only lead to more success.
In fact, GAO found that agencies are generally complying with
the RFA. They are just in need of more training. How could you
be against that? How could you shortchange small businesses in
America by not providing the training, equipping them with the
skill that they need in order to do their job?
The bottom line, my amendment will foster a constructive work-
ing relationship between advocacy and federal agencies rather than
create an adversarial one. My amendment will also submit a report
to Congress on the retrospective review requirements under Section
610.
Small business owners invested significant resources to comply
with the existing requirements and deregulation will cost them
time and money. Deregulation also leads to a patchwork of state
regulations which makes it harder for small businesses to comply
with multiple requirements. They need certainty, not chaos.
But what is known with this administration? Chaos. We got tar-
iff one day, the next half an hour we got a tweet saying that those
tariffs are off. And here we are, Members talking to small busi-
nesses, listening to small business and what is the thing that they
tell you? That they need certainty and that is not what they are
getting from this administration.
I urge my colleagues to support this amendment and I yield
back.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Is there further debate on the amendment?
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr.
Finstad.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Biden administration
continuously abused the regulatory process which resulted in
delays and lack of transparency.
And in regards to the training on the RFA, let me just again re-
fresh everyone that this was established in 1980. I was 4 years old
at the time. I think we have had a lot of opportunities and years
under our belt to become good at this, and clearly it is not.
And so the committee found these regulatory failures that we
have seen in recent history that have directly harmed small busi-
nesses by creating an uncertain and burdensome environment.
This bill is a common sense solution to improve efficiency, and
this amendment would only add more bureaucratic red tape that
further prevents small businesses from being protected against un-
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necessary regulations. I urge my colleagues to join me in voting no
on this amendment.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield back.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Is there further debate on the amendment?
The Chair recognizes——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. No.
Mr. SCHMIDT. No. Further debate on the amendment? Hearing
none, I move to strike the last word. I would hope that we could
all agree that saddling extra costs onto small businesses due to reg-
ulations should be stopped.
Unfortunately, the Biden administration’s regulatory assault
added $1.8 trillion in business-killing costs onto entrepreneurs. We
need to right those wrongs and this amendment does not help us
get there. I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment.
The question occurs on the amendment offered by the Ranking
Member.
All those in favor, say aye.
Those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman, I ask for a recorded vote.
Mr. SCHMIDT. A recorded vote has been requested. A roll call
vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are post-
poned. Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. SCHMIDT. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Mary-
land, Mr. Olszewski.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I have
an amendment at the desk.
Mr. SCHMIDT. There is an amendment at the desk. We will
pause briefly while the staff distributes the amendment.
The clerk will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 1163——
Mr. SCHMIDT. Without objection, the amendment is considered
as read.
I now recognize the gentleman for 5 minutes on the amendment.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. My
amendment to H.R. 1163 is meant to, again, seek to provide relief
for workforce development programs and rural small businesses.
While the Prove It Act of 2025 is well-intentioned, the bill poses
serious risks to our ability to govern effectively and respond to the
pressing challenges faced by working Americans and small busi-
nesses alike.
At its core, the legislation demands that federal agencies prove
the impact of proposed regulations on small entities before moving
forward, but let’s be clear. This is not just about transparency or
good governance.
The bill adds layers of bureaucracy that threatens to paralyze
the rulemaking process, particularly for rules that protect workers,
ensure public safety, and support emerging sectors of our economy.
By opening the door for well-resourced trade associations to chal-
lenge virtually any rule, the bill could end up requiring the chief
counsel to review agencies’ Regulatory Flexibility Act compliance
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for many of the thousands of rules issued each year, to say nothing
of the agencies’ periodic reviews of existing rules.
That would do little to help small businesses but it would help
powerful companies with money to hire well-connected lobbyists.
CBO estimates that this bill would increase administrative costs
for most agencies, including advocacy.
Accordingly, CBO reported that H.R. 7198, identical legislation
introduced in the previous Congress, would increase direct spend-
ing for independent agencies by $10 million, reduce revenues by $7
million over the 2025 to 2034 period, and increase spending by $35
million over the 2025 to 2029 period, subject to availability of ap-
propriated funds.
Who pays the price for these delays? The American taxpayer, our
working families, those who we all claim to support. Small busi-
nesses are waiting for fair access to capital. Communities need in-
vestment in workforce development. Rural entrepreneurs are strug-
gling to compete in today’s economy.
Again, this amendment ensures that when proposed federal rules
are projected to have a substantial benefit on workforce develop-
ment and rural small business they will not be unnecessarily de-
layed or burdened by procedural hurdles.
By moving swiftly and flexibly in cases where these rules offer
proven benefits this amendment strikes the right balance main-
taining regulatory oversight while empowering growth and innova-
tion in places that need it most.
I urge my colleagues to support this amendment and show that
Congress stands behind smart, targeted policies that strengthen
our workforce and uplift rural small businesses.
With that, Mr. Chairman I yield back.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Is there further debate on the amendment?
The Chair recognized the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr.
Finstad.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. This amendment creates
a massive loophole to the original bill to bypass key small business
protections based on vague, self-certified claims of substantial ben-
eficial effect. This amendment opens the door for abuse and effec-
tively cutting the core safeguards of the RFA that the Prove It Act
is designed to strengthen.
I strongly urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment to
avoid repeating the same flawed, self-certification practices that
enabled over $200 billion in COVID-19 fraud, burdening taxpayers,
and undermining public trust.
Again, I ask my colleagues to join me in voting no on this amend-
ment. I yield back.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Further debate?
The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member for 5 minutes.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I get into
my statement, I just would like to remind everyone that the fraud
that the gentleman is talking about started with the fact that the
administration of Donald Trump removed the guardrails that were
put in place to prevent fraud, and most of the fraud that took place
took place under the admin of the previous administration of Don-
ald Trump.
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And here we are. Smart, well-crafted regulations add tremendous
value to the everyday lives of our constituents.
Dr. Olszewski’s amendment would exempt regulations promoting
workforce development and rural small businesses from the Prove
It Act at a time when we need it most.
I am pleased to lend my support to his efforts to ensure our regu-
latory system continues to aid our communities. I urge all my col-
leagues to support this amendment.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Does the Ranking Member yield back?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Yes, sir, I yield back.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Is there further debate on the amendment? See-
ing none, I move to strike the last word. Like my colleague men-
tioned, this amendment ignores the safeguards that the Prove It
Act puts in place.
The Prove It Act is critical to make sure small businesses can
hold agencies accountable and stop unnecessary, costly, and overly
burdensome regulations. I urge Members to vote no on this amend-
ment.
The question now occurs on the amendment offered by the gen-
tleman from Maryland.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Mr. Chairman, I would request a recorded
vote, please.
Mr. SCHMIDT. A recorded vote has been requested. A roll call
vote is ordered. Further proceedings on the amendment are post-
poned.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Okay, very well. The question now occurs on the adoption of the
substitute amendment offered to H.R. 1163 by Mr. Finstad.
All those in favor, say aye.
All those opposed, say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. The amendment in
the nature of a substitute to H.R. 1163 is adopted.
The question is now on favorably reporting H.R. 1163 as amend-
ed to the House.
All those in favor will say aye.
Those opposed, no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it and H.R. 1163, as
amended, is agreed to.
Mr. FINSTAD. Mr. Chair? Mr. Chair, I would ask for a recorded
vote.
Mr. SCHMIDT. A recorded vote has been requested. A roll call
vote is ordered. Pursuant to committee rule 13 and House rule 11,
further proceedings on the bill are postponed. No further pro-
ceedings at this time. The committee will stand in recess subject
to the call of the Chair. Members, please return at 5:45 p.m. today
to resume consideration of the bills on which roll call votes were
requested and postponed. The committee is in recess.
[Recess.]
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51
Chairman WILLIAMS. This committee will come to order. The
committee will resume consideration of the bills on which roll call
votes were ordered.
We will now move to H.R. 2968. The question is on the amend-
ment offered by Dr. Conaway from the great state of New jersey.
The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. She is really sick. Okay.
Are there any other Members who have not voted or wish to
change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question now is on the amendment offered by the Ranking
Member from the great state of New York. The clerk will open the
vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. There we go. All right. Are there any
other Members who have not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question now is the adopting H.R. 2968 as amended and or-
dering it favorably to the House. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 15 and the
noes are 11.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The motion is agreed to and H.R. 2968 as
amended is adopted and will be reported favorably to the House.
Next we have H.R. 2027. The question is on the amendment of-
fered by Dr. Conaway from New Jersey. The clerk will open the
vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The next question is on the amendment offered by Mrs. McIver
from New Jersey. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
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The next question is on the amendment offered by Dr. Morrison
from Minnesota. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The next question is on the second amendment to H.R. 2027 by
Mrs. McIver from New Jersey. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question now is on adopting H.R. 2027 as amended and for-
warding it favorably to the House. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 15 and the
noes are 11.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The motion is agreed to and H.R. 2027 as
amended is adopted and will be reported favorably to the House.
The next bill is H.R. 2966. The question is now is on adopting
H.R. 2966 as amended and ordering it favorably to the House. The
clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 15 and the
noes are 11.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The motion is agreed to and H.R. 2966 as
amended is adopted and will be reported favorably to the House.
We will now move to H.R. 2931. The question is on the amend-
ment offered by Mr. Cisneros from the great state of California.
The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Hey doctor? Are there any other Members
besides the doctor who have not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question is now on the amendment offered by Ms. Velázquez
from the great state of New York. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
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If not, the clerk will close the vote. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question now is on adopting H.R. 2931 as amended and or-
dering it favorably to the House. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 15 and the
noes are 11.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The motion is agreed to and H.R. 2931 as
amended is adopted and will be reported favorably to the House.
We will now move on to H.R. 2987. The question now is adopting
H.R. 2987 as amended and ordering it favorably to the House. The
clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any of the Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 15 and the
noes are 11.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The motion is agreed to and H.R. 2987 as
amended is adopted will be reported favorably to the House.
We will now move to H.R. 2965, and the question is on the
amendment offered by Dr. Olszewski from the great state of Mary-
land. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question is on the amendment offered by Dr. Morrison from
the great state of Minnesota. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members, let me see
here. I need to vote I guess. Okay, there we go.
Are there any other Members who have not voted or wish to
change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question now is on adopting H.R. 2965 as amended and or-
dering it favorably to the House. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 15 and the
noes are 11.
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Chairman WILLIAMS. The motion is agreed to and H.R. 2965 as
amended is adopted and will be adopted favorably to the House.
Finally, we have H.R. 1163. The question is on the amendment
offered by Ms. Goodlander of the great state of New Hampshire.
The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. The amendment is not agreed
to.
The question is now on the amendment offered by Mr. McGarvey
from the great state of Kentucky. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question is on the amendment offered by the Ranking Mem-
ber from the great state of New York. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Representative Schmidt? Okay.
And I will repeat. Are there any other Members who have not
voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question is on the amendment offered by Dr. Olszewski from
the great state of Maryland.
The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 11 and the
noes are 15.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is not agreed to.
The question now is adopting H.R. 1163 as amended and order-
ing it favorably to the House. The clerk will open the vote.
[The vote was taken.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
If not, the clerk will close the vote and the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on this vote the ayes are 15 and the
noes are 11.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The motion is agreed to and H.R. 1163 as
amended is adopted and will be reported favorably to the House.
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Now, without objection, the committee staff is authorized to
make technical and conforming changes and Members have 2 busi-
ness days to file additional supplemental dissenting and minority
views.
I want to thank all of you for being here today. This has gone
well. If there is no further business, this concludes today’s markup.
Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 6:22 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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APPENDIX
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Æ
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-119hhrg60590.pdf
- Size
- 95,239,972 bytes
- SHA-256
- 3aeaa2cb89026367934eda0396997ec9c1536d975bed4dbf41d06e791000f0d0
- Our copy
- CHRG-119hhrg60590.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov