Main Street under Attack: The Cost of Crime on Small Businesses (House Small Business Committee hearing, December 2, 2025)
Summary
Transcript of a December 2, 2025 House Small Business Committee hearing, Small Business Committee Document Number 119-024, on what crime costs small businesses. Chairman Roger Williams and Ranking Member Nydia Velázquez opened. Witnesses were Thomas Wickham of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Lisa Plaggemier of the National Cybersecurity Alliance, Hrag Kalebjian of Henry's House of Coffee in San Francisco and Gregory Jackson Jr., former deputy director of the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention. Added material includes letters from the National Retail Federation, the Center for American Progress, ACT and the GOVCON Small Business Coalition.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
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“Main Street under Attack: The Cost of Crime on Small Businesses (House Small Business Committee hearing, December 2, 2025).”
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MAIN STREET UNDER ATTACK: THE COST OF
CRIME ON SMALL BUSINESSES
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD
DECEMBER 2, 2025
Small Business Committee Document Number 119–024
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
62–204 WASHINGTON : 2026
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
NICK LALOTA, New York
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
TONY WIED, Wisconsin
ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
BRIAN JACK, Georgia
TROY DOWNING, Montana
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
GIL CISNEROS, California
KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
GEORGE LATIMER, New York
DEREK TRAN, California
LATEEFAH SIMON, California
JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire
LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director
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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................ 1
Hon. Nydia Velázquez ............................................................................................. 3
WITNESSES
Mr. Thomas Wickham, Vice President, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Burke,
VA .......................................................................................................................... 6
Ms. Lisa Plaggemier, Executive Director, National Cybersecurity Alliance,
Winston-Salem, NC .............................................................................................. 7
Mr. Hrag Kalebjian, Owner, Henry’s House of Coffee, San Francisco, CA ........ 9
The Honorable Gregory Jackson Jr., Former Deputy Director, White House
Office of Gun Violence Prevention, Washington, DC ........................................ 10
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. Thomas Wickham, Vice President, U.S. Chamber of Commerce,
Burke, VA ...................................................................................................... 44
Ms. Lisa Plaggemier, Executive Director, National Cybersecurity Alliance,
Winston-Salem, NC ...................................................................................... 47
Mr Hrag Kalebjian, Owner, Henry’s House of Coffee, San Francisco,
CA ................................................................................................................... 53
The Honorable Gregory Jackson Jr., Former Deputy Director, White
House Office of Gun Violence Prevention, Washington, DC ..................... 56
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
National Retail Federation (NRF) Letter ....................................................... 59
Center for American Progress (CAP) Letter .................................................. 61
Ms. Lauren Zabierek and Mr. Bob Lord Letter ............................................. 69
ACT Letter ........................................................................................................ 78
GOVCON Small Business Coalition Letter .................................................... 84
National Apartment Association (NAA) National Multifamily Housing
Council (NMHC) Real Estate Technology and Transformation Center
(RETTC) Letter ............................................................................................. 88
Violence Project Database of Mass Shootings in the United States Letter . 90
Urban Institute Letter ..................................................................................... 91
Washington Post (WAPO) Letter .................................................................... 141
(III)
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MAIN STREET UNDER ATTACK: THE COST OF
CRIME ON SMALL BUSINESSES
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 2025
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:04 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
man of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Ellzey,
LaLota, Finstad, Wied, Bresnahan, Jack, Downing, King-Hinds,
Schmidt, Velázquez, McGarvey, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros, Lati-
mer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, and Goodlander.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Before we get started, I want to
recognize my friend, Mr. McGarvey, to lead us in the pledge and
the prayer, and he is from the great State of Kentucky. Would you
please rise?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you. Everyone, please bow your heads.
Father, we ask that you watch over us and all our work, that you
guide us, that you give us the greatest patience and wisdom to
come together to work on behalf of the American people. We accept
your light at this time to help others, to do what you require of us,
for justice, for kindness, and welcome. Amen.
All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of Amer-
ica, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, one personal privi-
lege. I want to remind everybody on the Committee we have our
bipartisan Christmas party December 11 at 4:00 p.m. right here in
this room. So I hope everybody can come.
Good morning, everyone. I now call the Committee on Small
Business to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to de-
clare a recess of the Committee at any time.
Before we begin opening statements, I want to congratulate my
friend, Ranking Member Velázquez, as she will be retiring at the
end of the 119th Congress. She has been a leader for over 30 years
in the House and for 27 years in the Committee, and I am looking
forward to continuing to work with her and next to her through the
end of this Congress.
Thank you for your patriotism and love of the country.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It has been the
honor of my life being in this Committee and serving small busi-
nesses across the country. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. And she likes orange.
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I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
Welcome to today’s hearing entitled ‘‘Main Street Under Attack:
The Cost of Crime on Small Business.’’
Today’s hearing on crime is unfortunately timely. As many of you
know, on the day before Thanksgiving last week, two West Virginia
National Guard members were violently ambushed in our nation’s
capital. Tragically, the 20-year-old Sarah Beckstrom lost her life
and 24-year-old Andrew Wolfe continues to fight for his. We con-
tinue to pray for their families during this devastating time.
I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. We recognize
many of you have traveled to be here, and we appreciate your time
and your perspective.
America’s prosperity begins on main street. Small business own-
ers work hard to create jobs and build a community. However,
main street businesses are under attack in many cities across the
country. Violent crime, organized retail theft, and petty shoplifting
are hitting small businesses hard. As a small business owner my-
self in the car—as a car dealer in the car industry, we have seen
an uptick in stolen inventory and cyber attacks. This increased
crime has a devastating impact on our operations. These costs can-
not be passed on to the consumer.
Unfortunately, the crime is being fueled by political choices that
embrace soft-on-crime policies at the expense of hardworking
Americans. Policies like cashless bail, defunding the police, and
prosecutorial decisions that fail to impose consequences for repeat
offenders make it extremely difficult for mom-and-pop shops to op-
erate. All too often, we see headlines of repeat offenders commit-
ting horrific crimes.
In Charlotte, a 23-year-old Ukrainian refugee was commuting
home from her work at a pizzeria when she was horrifically
stabbed in the neck. The murderer had 14 arrests. And, last
month, a 26-year-old woman was set on fire in the Chicago subway
by a man who had 53 criminal cases against him with only two re-
sulting in jail time. This should not be possible in a civilized soci-
ety.
What is even more alarming, statistics from government agencies
are likely missing this spike in crime. More than half of small busi-
nesses don’t bother reporting thefts anymore because of the limited
police response, and crime creates uncertainty, raises costs, and
drives away customers. When small business owners are forced to
install expensive security systems, lock goods away on shelves, and
brace for a daily theft, they divert capital from hiring, expanding,
and innovating.
These challenges are not limited to physical crime. Cyber crime
is growing and is significant to main street. Small businesses are
210 percent more likely to experience a cyber attack than large
companies simply because they lack the resources to implement
strong cybersecurity policies. Attackers know this, and our foreign
adversaries knowingly target smaller companies because they as-
sume a weaker defense and faster payout. As artificial intelligence
becomes increasingly prevalent, small businesses are at a greater
risk of the AI-generated emails, impersonation schemes, and
scams.
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That is why I am thankful that President Trump is taking deci-
sive action to make America safe again. President Trump is restor-
ing law and order in the cities across the country and taking deci-
sive action to deter cyber criminals by reversing the weak Biden-
Harris era mandates. By restoring law and order, strengthening cy-
bersecurity, and reversing failed soft-on-crime policies, Republicans
are giving small businesses stability and confidence they need to
grow, compete, and succeed.
I want to thank all of you again for joining us today, and I look
forward to the conversation ahead. I now yield to my friend, the
Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velázquez.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to
all the witnesses for being here this morning.
Unlike large corporations, small businesses often lack the re-
sources, expertise, and experience to address and recover from a
crime. In cyberspace, a Hiscox study found that 41 percent of small
businesses were victims of a cyber-attack in 2023 with a median
cost of $8,300. These attacks on Main Street America—such as
ransomware, data breaches, and email compromises—result in
business operation disruptions and the theft of valuable assets and
funds.
Under my leadership, Congress passed the bipartisan Small
Business Cyber Training Act of 2022, which President Biden signed
into law, requiring small business development centers to train and
certify staff to provide cybersecurity counseling to small businesses.
Democrats remain committed to supporting and expanding cyberse-
curity resources for small businesses.
In real life, public safety has been a hot-button issue since the
onset of the COVID pandemic. Under the previous administration,
Democrats made landmark investments in keeping our commu-
nities safe. The American Rescue Plan Act gave $15 billion to
states and cities for their police forces and violent crime preven-
tion. Similarly, the landmark Bipartisan Safer Communities Act
closed key firearm safety loopholes and appropriated $13 billion to
law enforcement and community violence intervention programs,
keeping guns and violent crime off our streets. In fact, over 700 de-
fendants have been charged on their offenses created by the BSCA,
including traffickers linked to transnational cartels and narcotic
distributors.
In other words, Democrats are serious about safety, but it seems
that the Trump administration is not. Under President Trump, the
Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency laid off a third
of its workforce, firing dedicated experts who kept our nation and
main street safe from cyber-attacks, and his allies in Congress ne-
glected key federal cybersecurity provisions. They failed to reau-
thorize a key cyber intelligence sharing law, putting our cyber com-
munity in the dark about significant cyber threats, and they al-
lowed the State and Local Cybersecurity Grant Program to expire.
At the Department of Justice, President Trump revoked $500
million in grants to programs carrying out vital work in violent
crime prevention, policing and prosecution, victim and survivor
support, juvenile justice and child protection, and corrections. He
also rescinded regulations making highly lethal firearm attach-
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ments harder to obtain, empowering violent criminals across the
country.
For his part, the Trump DOJ claims that it will focus on law en-
forcement operations, combating violent crime, protecting American
children, supporting American victims of trafficking and sexual as-
sault, and promoting coordination of law enforcement efforts at all
levels of government. But, clearly, actions speak louder than words.
President Trump’s crime control cost targeted empirical programs
designed to achieve his stated goals and ultimately hurt law en-
forcement and their ability to fight crime.
Instead of real solutions, President Trump—wielding racist rhet-
oric and sensationalized stories—has deployed federal agents and
troops to roam the streets of America’s cities where violent crime
levels are at lows unseen in this century, wasting vital resources
for photo ops. President Trump has chosen to make America more
dangerous and exploit the problem of crime for political gain. Main
street is under attack, all right.
Republicans think a hearing like this can help them rationalize
their agenda and impose draconian, fascist policies upon the Amer-
ican people. So, to everyone watching, don’t be fooled. The federal
government can act to improve our public safety by protecting and
expanding upon the investment we know works.
So, today, I hope we can refocus the conversation and the admin-
istration can refocus their attention on what will meaningfully im-
prove safety for small businesses and their employees. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I will now introduce our witnesses.
Our first witness here with us today is Mr. Tom Wickham. Mr.
Wickham is the vice president and managing director of govern-
ment affairs to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce right here in Wash-
ington, D.C.
For over 25 years, Mr. Wickham worked on Capitol Hill—many
of you know him—beginning under Speaker Newt Gingrich and
concluding under Speaker Nancy Pelosi, including serving as the
Parliamentarian of the U.S. House of Representatives. He is a re-
cipient of the Speaker John W. McCormack Award of Excellence,
serves on the advisory board of the Center of Effective Lawmaking
partnership between the University of Virginia and Vanderbilt
University—and they are doing pretty good, aren’t they, right now?
You have got two winners there—and volunteers as a citizenship
teacher in the community.
Mr. Wickham earned a bachelor of arts in political science and
government from the University of Iowa and a JD from the Univer-
sity of Iowa College of Law. We want to thank you for being with
us today, Tom.
Our next witness here with us today is Ms. Lisa Plaggemier, and
Ms. Plaggemier is executive director of the National Cybersecurity
Alliance based in Austin, Texas. Ms. Plaggemier began her career
with Ford Motor Company and later advanced into technology,
marketing, and cybersecurity leadership roles at CDK Global,
InfoSec, and MediaPRO. She serves on the U.S. Secret Service
Cyber Investigations Advisory Board, is a volunteer advisory board
member at Identity Theft Resource Center, and is a two-time re-
cipient of the CSO award.
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Ms. Plaggemier earned a bachelor of arts from the University of
Michigan, majoring in marketing, psychology, and German. We ap-
preciate you being here today.
Our next witness is Mr.—I am going to get it right now—Hrag
Kalebjian. Okay. Got it. Mr. Kalebjian is the owner of Henry’s
House of Coffee, a third-generation coffee business in San Fran-
cisco. Before returning to the family business, Mr. Kalebjian spent
over a decade in corporate finance and analytics, including roles at
AAA, Blue Shield of California, and Optimum Health Behavioral
Solutions.
Mr. Kalebjian joined the coffee shop full time in 2013 and is a
certified specialty coffee sensory analyst and a Member of the U.S.
Chamber of Commerce Small Business Council. Mr. Kalebjian
earned a bachelor of arts in economics from the University of Cali-
fornia, Davis and a master of business administration in finance
from San Francisco State University. I want to thank you for join-
ing us today, and I am looking forward to our conversation.
And, with that, I now recognize the Ranking Member from New
York, Ms. Velázquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appear-
ing before us today.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Gregory Jackson Jr. is the founder and owner of Safer Fu-
tures LLC, a policy and strategic consulting firm specializing in
violent crime reduction and prevention. Mr. Jackson’s expertise on
gun violence began in 2013 when he was shot and seriously wound-
ed as an innocent bystander. That moment gave him his mission
to ensure no family, business owner, or community will ever en-
dure the pain he did.
Eventually, Mr. Jackson was appointed to the previous adminis-
tration as a deputy director of the White House Office of Gun Vio-
lence Prevention and special assistant to the President. In these
roles, he helped implement the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act
and oversaw the expansion of community violence intervention re-
sources in the federal government.
Mr. Jackson holds a bachelor’s degree in government from the
University of Virginia and is currently studying for a Master of
Public Health degree at Yale University. Welcome, Mr. Jackson,
and good luck with your master. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you, again, to all of you. We ap-
preciate all of you being here today.
Now, before recognizing the witnesses, I would like to remind
them that their oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length,
and we do stick with that. If you see the light turn red in front
of you, it means that your 5 minutes has concluded, and you should
wrap up your testimony. And, if you still keep talking, you will
hear this. That means quit talking, okay?
And, with that in mind, I now recognize Mr. Wickham for his 5-
minute opening remarks.
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STATEMENTS OF TOM WICKHAM, VICE PRESIDENT AND MAN-
AGING DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, U.S. CHAMBER
OF COMMERCE; LISA PLAGGEMIER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
NATIONAL CYBERSECURITY ALLIANCE; HRAG KALEBJIAN,
OWNER, HENRY’S HOUSE OF COFFEE; AND THE HONORABLE
GREGORY JACKSON JR., FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR,
WHITE HOUSE OFFICE OF GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION.
STATEMENT OF TOM WICKHAM
Mr. WICKHAM. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for in-
viting me to participate in this hearing. My name is Tom Wickham.
I am vice president and managing director of government affairs at
the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. I have been at the U.S. Chamber
since 2021. From 1995 through 2021, I served in the House Parlia-
mentarian’s Office, where I had the honor of advising many of you
on your constitutional and institutional responsibilities.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is the world’s largest business
organization, representing companies of all sizes, including small
and mid-sized businesses. We also have local Chambers of Com-
merce in leading industry associations as members. The Chamber
serves as the voice of American business in Washington, across the
country, and across the globe.
Since 2021, I have visited communities throughout the country,
meeting with policymakers, law enforcement, prosecutors, and
businesses to find solutions to the complex problems of crimes
against businesses. The U.S. Chamber is committed to working
with this Committee and small businesses to combat crime and its
negative impact on communities.
While higher profile crimes and finger-pointing often grab the
headlines, small businesses continue to struggle with rising busi-
ness-focused crimes. Retail crimes like organized shoplifting rings
and smash-and-grabs have been persistent problems for America’s
businesses. Crime numbers often fluctuate from year to year, but
the long-term trends are clear here, with larcenies involving shop-
lifting having doubled since the 1970s according to statistics from
the nonprofit Council for Criminal Justice.
The effect of retail crime is widespread with innocent consumers,
employees, and business owners bearing the financial and societal
cost. Retail crime creates higher prices for consumers, results in
stores having to close their doors, and communities are left without
vital goods or services.
Cargo theft is another rising concern for the business community.
Cargo theft is increasing rapidly with a significant shift towards
sophisticated fraud and deception tactics. Cargo theft results in
higher costs throughout the supply chain, ultimately impacting
small business shippers and retailers. The latest numbers from
CargoNet show a 13 percent increase in cargo theft incidents in the
second quarter of 2025 over 2024, following record-high numbers of
cargo theft incidents in 2023 and 2024. Unfortunately, Texas is at
the center of the problem, with Texas, Illinois, and California as
the top three States for cargo theft with 53 percent of incidents oc-
curring in those States.
Crimes against small businesses are not just a matter of national
statistics but affect all businesses at the local level. Hrag Kalebjian
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will testify to the continued problems plaguing his family-run coffee
shop in California. Hrag is a proud Member of our U.S. Chamber’s
Small Business Council where, unfortunately, these stories are all
too common and often include businesses in Texas and in New
York.
According to a Texas study led by their comptroller’s office, orga-
nized retail theft costs businesses in the State of Texas over $421
million annually. These skyrocketing costs are in addition to the
mental impact on small businesses owners and employees.
The U.S. Chamber has summoned policymakers in the business
community to join us in our three-part call to action for improved
coordination, aggregation, and prosecution in combating crimes
against businesses. The U.S. Chamber stands ready to partner
with this Committee to pass effective laws and policies to combat
crime and ensure our communities are safe. I am happy to take
questions at the appropriate time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much, and I now recog-
nize Ms. Plaggemier for her 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF LISA PLAGGEMIER
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member
Velázquez, and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank
you for the opportunity to provide testimony today. I greatly appre-
ciate the Committee including cybersecurity in this discussion.
The National Cybersecurity Alliance is a nonprofit on a mission
to educate people on how to protect themselves from cyber crime,
scams, and fraud. From families to Fortune 500s and everyone in
between, we work to make cybersecurity easier and more acces-
sible. We reach millions of people with our campaigns on every-
thing from AI deepfakes to avoiding scams like pig butchering.
I haven’t always worked in cybersecurity. I spent the first 15
years of my career in a large enterprise working with small busi-
nesses: car dealers. I learned firsthand the importance of small
businesses to their communities and the value of partnership be-
tween the factory and the franchise.
Cybersecurity is not just a technical issue. It is a business risk
that small businesses can learn to manage. The majority of secu-
rity incidents are not technology failures. They are people and proc-
ess failures. Many incidents have poor basic IT management as
their root cause, like employees using the same passwords on mul-
tiple accounts, a lack of multifactor authentication, or MFA, oper-
ating systems that are out of date, and vulnerable software that
goes unpatched.
There are a few myths we regularly hear from small businesses.
Myth: ‘‘I just don’t think I am on the radar of the bad guys.’’ Eighty
one percent of small businesses have experienced a cyber incident.
Businesses with fewer than 100 employees are now two and a half
times more likely to be targeted than those with more than 500
employees. Small businesses are also targeted by scammers be-
cause they don’t monitor for brand abuse like large organizations.
According to Visa, fraud has evolved from being opportunistic. It
is now strategic, automated, and scalable. We are entering an era
where nothing can be trusted at face value. AI enables the creation
of synthetic content—fake merchant websites, fake identities, fake
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chat agents—that are all indistinguishable from legitimate busi-
nesses.
Myth: ‘‘We don’t have anything of value to the cyber criminals.’’
From my auto experience, I can tell you that the average car dealer
has 50,000 consumer records that include Social Security numbers,
driver’s license numbers, and more. Each of those records is worth
hundreds of dollars on the dark web. Small business intellectual
property is also very valuable to nation-state actors like the Peo-
ple’s Republic of China.
There are multiple examples of small businesses operating in
highly specialized, niche markets whose businesses have been
threatened when their IP was stolen by the PRC who then spun
up a low-cost competitor producing the same highly specialized
product at a fraction of the cost.
I have met a small business owner who was the only manufac-
turer in the U.S. of a piece of equipment necessary to road paving,
who said to me, ‘‘Why would China attack us?’’ He had no under-
standing of the risk of IP theft to his business. I have met a small
business in a highly specialized segment who unknowingly em-
ployed a Chinese spy for years. They didn’t know it until the spy
went to work for a large enterprise that detected the espionage
quickly. The Chinese national was convicted, but the small busi-
ness still doesn’t know what IP was stolen from them because they
had no monitoring in place at the time they employed him.
State actors are also increasingly targeting small businesses be-
cause they are entry points into supply chains. Russia and China
patiently make multiple hops through smaller companies to get to
their desired target.
Myth: ‘‘I have got a guy, an IT guy.’’ In our experience, small
business owners don’t know enough about cyber to manage it as a
function of their business. They know enough about finance, for ex-
ample, to have a meaningful conversation with their accountant,
but the same is not true with their IT person. Small businesses
don’t manage what they don’t understand, so our Cyber Secure My
Business Program educates owners using business terminology
they can understand so they can better manage risk.
Myth: ‘‘Cybersecurity is too expensive. My IT person just wants
to spend money.’’ Again, this lack of education and communication.
One example I heard at a car dealership involved an end-of-life PC
in the parts department running Windows XP, introducing
vulnerabilities into the dealer. When the IT manager asked the
owner to replace the PC, the owner said, the parts manager says
it works just fine, declining to make the investment. The failure
was a lack of communication on the amount of risk to the business
that that old PC represented. So all these myths point to a dan-
gerous disconnect between the perception of risk and the adoptions
of basic security controls like MFA.
We believe that public-private partnerships are an effective and
efficient way to help small businesses learn to better protect them-
selves. According to our research, most people don’t turn to the fed-
eral government for advice and guidance. They look to the private
sector: companies, vendors, nonprofits. Our Cyber Secure My Busi-
ness live-taught remote course is just an hour a week for 6 weeks.
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Cybersecurity does not have to be as intimidating and confusing as
people perceive it to be. Education works.
If we stand ready to work with federal agencies to better educate
small businesses on how to avoid being victimized by cyber crime,
IP theft, and scams through partnerships like cooperative agree-
ments between nonprofits and government, we can work more effi-
ciently and effectively than government can alone. We are stronger
together.
I would like to thank the Committee and offer our ongoing part-
nership to support America’s small businesses.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
I now recognize Mr. Kalebjian for his 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF HRAG KALEBJIAN
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members of
the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My
name is Hrag Kalebjian, and I am the third-generation of Henry’s
House of Coffee, a small-batch, family-owned coffee roaster that
has been a part of San Francisco’s Sunset since 1965.
Our business was founded by my father and grandfather who im-
migrated to the United States from Lebanon. For decades, our shop
has been a place where generations of neighbors gather, share sto-
ries, and feel a sense of community over a cup of coffee roasted on-
site. In recent years, however, that sense of community and safety
has eroded under the weight of rising crime and lawlessness that
small business owners like myself face daily.
About 2 years ago, a mentally unstable individual began repeat-
edly stealing from my store. He comes in, takes drinks or food from
our refrigerated case, sometimes three times a week, and occasion-
ally steals from our tip jar. On multiple occasions, he has harassed
me and my staff, once even attempting to spit in my face. He has
stolen from us more than 35 times. Repeat offenders not only hurt
the bottom line but drive away loyal customers and endanger staff.
I called the police numerous times. Officers respond quickly, and
I can tell they want to help, but they have told me their hands are
tied. One officer advised me that my best option was to file a re-
straining order. I filed one, but enforcement has proven impossible.
He returns repeatedly, and the police can’t take meaningful action.
For employees and customers, this isn’t about the cost of stolen
goods. It is about safety. I constantly remind my staff not to inter-
vene because no one cup of coffee is worth someone getting hurt.
Yet, some of our loyal customers feel so protective of our shop that
they have tried to stop the thief themselves. My worst nightmare
is that something will happen to my employees or to my customers.
The toll of this criminal activity goes far beyond dollars. It is ex-
hausting, demoralizing, and deeply discouraging to work hard
every day only to feel that the system no longer values your con-
tribution. We have installed metal gates on our storefront, shatter-
proof window screens, replaced stolen equipment such as cash reg-
isters and iPads, all costly measures for a small business still re-
covering from the pandemic. Our shop even built a parklet during
COVID so neighbors could enjoy coffee, but it is frequently vandal-
ized. Between security costs, repairs, we have spent thousands sim-
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ply to stay operational while watching nearby businesses close due
to the same issues.
San Francisco’s Sunset District was once a quiet, family-centered
neighborhood. Since the pandemic, criminal activity that was once
concentrated downtown has spread into our residential commu-
nities. Break-ins, vandalism, and theft are now common topics of
neighborhood conversation. The closure of a nearby essential busi-
ness, like the only local pharmacy, shows how crime affects not just
merchants but the very fabric of the community.
When businesses close, blight follows. Vacant storefronts attract
more crime, and a cycle of decay begins. Each closure represents
a lost opportunity for community connection and economic resil-
ience.
At the heart of this problem are policy failures. Local prosecutors
constrained by political and legal choices rarely pursue these cases.
Police officers, many of whom are empathetic and dedicated, feel
demoralized. From a businessperson—owner’s perspective, the ab-
sence of local leadership compound these problems. Our city’s su-
pervisors have rarely visited our shop. Promises are made about
prioritizing public safety, but in practice, laws and enforcement re-
main unchanged.
My father always taught me that incentive drives the behavior.
Show me the incentive, and I will show you the outcome. Right
now, our incentives tell people that crime pays and accountability
doesn’t. That cannot be the legacy we leave for the next generation
of small business owners.
Henry’s House of Coffee is not just a business. It is a testament
to immigrant perseverance, family legacy, and community pride. I
love my city and my customers, and I want to remain part of San
Francisco’s revival, but unless policymakers act decisively to re-
store law and order, more small businesses will make the painful
choice to leave.
Thank you for listening to my story and for giving small business
owners a voice on this issue. I look forward to your questions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much, and I now recog-
nize Mr. Jackson for his 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE GREGORY JACKSON JR.
Mr. JACKSON. All right. Thank you, Chairman Williams, Rank-
ing Member Velázquez, and the Committee for having me. I am
Greg Jackson, a D.C. resident, a survivor of gun violence here in
the District, but also a small business owner and former deputy di-
rector for the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention
where we coordinated federal resources to implement lifesaving
policies and coordinated with local leaders to reach a nationwide
reduction of violent crime by 13.2 percent and homicides by 31 per-
cent in just 2 years.
I have spent the last decade of my life working to address this
crisis after being shot in 2013. I was shot by a stray bullet while
walking home, and that bullet hit two arteries and left me with a
50 percent chance of survival. But, since that fateful night, you
know, nearly a million Americans have been shot or killed. From
Buffalo to Baltimore, Stockton to Washington, we have seen how
gun violence is driving violent crime but also destroying families
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across our country. And it also remains the leading cause of death
for youth in America, the leading cause of death for pregnant
women in America above childbirth complications, and now even
the leading cause of newly disabled Americans.
With one in five Americans being impacted by violence, this has
also become personal for too many, but we also know there is a
clear financial cost to this crisis. According to Brady United and
NICJR, we have seen this crisis cost our economy upwards of $557
billion a year, equivalent to 2.6 percent of the U.S. GDP, with
southern States bearing the brunt of this economic toll, owning
41.4 percent of firearm-related hospital costs and having a firearm
death rate of 2.3 times higher than northeastern States.
Additionally, gun violence has a direct cost for employers. The
number of people shot increased by 400 percent between 2007 and
2020 according to data of individuals and dependents insured by
their employer. It is estimated that a firearm injury costs employ-
ers $30,000 in direct medical spending in the first year of injury
alone. Employers must give employees who are shot a leave of ab-
sence, adding to over a $535-million-a-year estimated impact on
our businesses and our country according to a recent Harvard Med-
ical School research report.
Gun violence is also estimated to cost private employers roughly
535 million per year because of lost productivity. People who sur-
vive firearm injuries experience a 40 percent increase in pain dis-
orders, a 51 percent increase in psychiatric disorders, and an 85
percent increase in substance abuse disorders, affecting their abil-
ity to work and contribute to the business’s goals and outcomes.
But, despite this crisis, in the last few years, we have seen real
solutions that work. In the last few years, we have invested and
seen historic reductions in violence—in violent crime across our
country without masked agents, without military, but by investing
in violence prevention, by investing in law enforcement, and most
importantly, pushing accountability upstream to make sure illegal
guns and firearms don’t flood our streets.
Recently, even the current FBI director Kash Patel celebrated
historic low levels of violent crime, but we know these reductions
are not a result of a few months of troops or FBI actions. They are
a result of the billions invested in violence prevention as well as
these key policies and the hard work from business leaders and
community leaders across our country to make our communities
safer.
In fact, we saw a 54 percent reduction in homicides in Baltimore,
a 41 percent reduction in Phoenix, a 38 percent reduction in Chi-
cago, and even a 20 percent reduction in Atlanta. But, instead of
investing more federal resources into what we know works, the
Trump administration has moved to dismantle and defund bipar-
tisan strategies passed into law that reduce violence.
They shut down the White House Office of Gun Violence Preven-
tion. In the Big Beautiful Bill, they defunded law enforcement—di-
rectly defunded law enforcement by $418 million, cut over 1 billion
in mental health resources for schools, terminated 812 million for
violence prevention and intervention programs, and dismantled im-
portant regulations like the zero tolerance policy for gun dealers
that break the law, and now there are further plans to defund crit-
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ical resources like housing, health, and employment programs that
we know address the root causes of violent crime.
This is not the federal support that our small businesses or com-
munities need. We need a government that is tough on crime by
preventing it before it happens, and that means directing law en-
forcement to prevent illegal guns from flooding our streets that we
know are being used for robberies, crimes, and homicides. Being
tough on crime is funding ATF to catch gun traffickers, to shut
down rogue gun dealers, and disrupt dangerous black markets that
are selling illegal weapons that land at crime scenes, and being
tough on crime is funding violence intervention and prevention pro-
grams, mental health resources for youth, and other ways that we
know we can reduce violence.
We have real solutions to reduce violence, to reduce violent
crime, and help reduce the harm that gun violence causes to our
economy and small businesses, and I hope that we will continue to
build on that progress. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
And now I want to say, as we get started, you will see people
moving in and out. It is not you said the wrong thing or the right
thing. There are other hearings going on, and you will see that
begin to happen.
We will now move into the Member questions under the 5-
minute rule, and I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Wickham, in your testimony, you make it clear that most
small businesses across America have been victims of crime. You
note that these instances are becoming increasingly coordinated
and violent and that the economic impact on small business are se-
vere.
The question is, how many small businesses nationwide are
being affected by retail crime, and in which regions are you seeing
the most significant impact?
Mr. WICKHAM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is a good ques-
tion when it comes to the statistics, and continuing on a theme
that we heard earlier, one of the statistics that is most distressing
to the business community is the rise in violence accompanying a
criminal act. Recent studies by the National Retail Federation
found that there is a 17 percent increase in violence accompanying
these individual acts of criminality, and that is something that is
of grave concern to both small business owners and larger mem-
bers.
And, when we see that violence, we then look at the laws of a
specific jurisdiction and ask is there a prosecutorial attitude to-
wards certain crimes in that district, or is there a lack of police re-
sources? When we do a district-by-district breakdown, that is the
type of thing that we are looking for. We will go to states like Ohio,
Florida, Louisiana, where businesses are reaching out because of
rising crime, and we try to meet with all of the stakeholders in
place.
It is a multijurisdictional issue. So we are busy working with pol-
icymakers, with prosecutors, and with law enforcement to try to
address these issues.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
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Mr. Kalebjian, in cities where Democratic leaders have embraced
soft-on-crime policies like cashless bail and weakened prosecution,
small businesses are being hit the hardest. You have talked about
that. Your coffee shop has faced multiple incidents of theft, and un-
fortunately, you are not the only small business victim of these
crimes.
So can you explain how repeat theft, rising security costs, and
the lack of meaningful law enforcement have affected your ability
to serve customers in your community and have a successful busi-
ness?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah. Thank you, Chairman. I think that is
the biggest issue, is you have a mental challenge of feeling help-
less. You have an embarrassment in front of customers where the
theft is happening, and the customers are looking at you like, ‘‘Are
you going to do anything?’’ And then you have the liability of, in
my case, customers acting and taking on to prevent the theft,
which is a big scare for me as a business owner.
And, in my area specifically, a lot of East Asians are hard-
working, put their head down and don’t complain, and I feel like,
as a member of the community, I have to speak up for them be-
cause they don’t feel comfortable speaking up.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Sometimes, too, your customers don’t
come back sometimes. That is another issue.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes, sir. That is definitely a concern. And, as
you mentioned, that goes straight to the bottom line.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Ms. Plaggemier, over the past few years,
we have watched foreign adversaries infiltrate American networks
and stealing sensitive data, intellectual property, and even pene-
trating the State’s Army and National Guard systems. So how do
these large-scale cyber attacks indirectly affect small businesses
like mine and others?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. I think cybersecurity has turned into a kind
of tax that we all pay through ransomware attacks and just the
cost of protecting yourself. This has a sort of trickle-down effect
to—even to us as consumers because it causes prices to go up, I
think.
The biggest problem that we see with small businesses is just
getting their attention. They are very, very busy places, and cyber-
security is intangible. Protecting your business from physical theft
is a very different thing. It is much more tangible. You can see it.
You can’t see a malware infection stealing information on your de-
vice. And so I think a lot of small businesses just don’t give it the
priority that it needs until it is actually too late and until they
have been affected.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Thank you. And my time is up,
and I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of ques-
tions.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson, how does the ability of guns escalate otherwise non-
violent incidents inside retail spaces like disputes, shoplifting en-
counters, or customer conflicts?
Mr. JACKSON. Yeah. I mean, we have seen, you know, the pres-
ence of firearms really being the major driver of interpersonal con-
flict becoming deadly. In fact, now, 81 percent of homicides in our
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cities are not connected to another felony. They are interpersonal
conflicts with the presence of a firearm often in a public place.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you. Mr. Jackson, KFF found over one
in five American adults have been personally threatened with a
gun. Compared to other countries, how much worse of a problem
is gun violence here?
Mr. JACKSON. We are nearly triple to every other developed na-
tion when it comes to violent crime related to firearms. And, if you
need any proof, you can go to London where they are worried about
knife fights whereas we are still dealing with mass shootings as
late as this week.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Are gun homicides higher in the urban cen-
ters compared to other parts of the country?
Mr. JACKSON. Homicides are, but violence as a whole is still
high even in rural communities. We don’t talk enough about sui-
cide by firearm which also has a huge impact on rural America.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter into the
record this article entitled ‘‘The Highest Rates of Gun Homicides
Are in Rural Counties.’’
Chairman WILLIAMS. Accepted.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Ms. Plaggemier, what are the most common
cybersecurity threats facing small businesses today?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. I see there is a lot of new threats. AI has
actually sort of jacked up the whole problem. It has made it easier
and faster and more scalable for criminals to be effective.
So, when you think about—probably the most prevalent problem
is social engineering. Things like phishing emails, scam texts,
phone calls, malicious phone calls to your business, trying to trick
employees into doing things they shouldn’t do that create a vulner-
ability—those things have just gotten ramped up. The volume and
the quality because of AI is so much better than it used to be.
I could have told you 6 months ago or a year ago that a phishing
email would look kind of obvious. I would tell you to look for poor
grammar or spelling or bad graphics. But AI has given the crimi-
nals the ability to make something that is indistinguishable from
what is legitimate. I would actually say that I think cyber crimi-
nals have adopted AI in their business, if you will, faster than
small businesses have.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. The SBA used to have an online cybersecurity
educational resource, but it was removed in 2018. Should we add
one back?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. Well, actually, our link to our website,
staysafeonline.org, is listed on the SBA’s website when you look for
their training.
I think the most effective thing is public-private partnership. So
the training curriculum that we have already gone to the expense
of creating that is very, very effective—you know, we would be
more than happy to work in conjunction with the SBA to deliver
that to more small businesses.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. We know that cybersecurity attacks and crime
are issues that are impacting small businesses. It will take only
one cybersecurity attack to a small business, and that could put
them out of business.
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Given the fact that the mission of SBA is to provide assistance
and education, capacity building to small businesses, don’t you be-
lieve or don’t you agree with me that having an effective cybersecu-
rity education at SBA should be, you know, something that is com-
mon sense?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. I think public-private partnerships are the
best way to deliver that kind of training. So working together be-
tween nonprofits and federal government like we do today, I think,
is a really effective mechanism because we can be a little bit more
nimble. We can bring things to market faster. So I don’t think
they—well, I think they should do it——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. SBA has a network. It is partnering with a
national network of more than 2,000 small business development
centers and other small business development organizations. I
don’t see why they don’t make it part of the mission of the SBA
so that——
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. We have held events with them in person at
those centers, yes.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Yeah.
Mr. Jackson, Everytown Research found—oh, my time expired. I
yield back.
Mr. ELLZEY. [Presiding.] Thank you, Ranking Member.
I now recognize Mr. Stauber from Minnesota for 5 minutes, my
favorite law enforcement officer on the Hill.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
You know, when crime increases, whether it is shoplifting, bur-
glary, organized retail theft, or vandalism, it is not just a statistic.
Small business owners are left to wonder whether they will make
payroll after covering the cost of damages, or whether foot traffic
will slow because community members feel less safe walking
around, or whether it is even worth their own safety to keep the
doors open.
We have heard the numbers across the country: 95 percent of
small business retailers report that they have experienced theft,
and most say it is getting worse. Nearly 80 percent of the small
business retailers report that their monthly losses from theft are
between $500 and $2,500 annually.
As a former police officer who served my community for over two
decades, I take this personally. When I talk to officers and small
business owners, the story is the same as we heard in our crime
hearing last Congress. Policies from weak-on-crime cities and
States are undercutting the people trying to do the right thing and
tilting the field toward the repeat offenders.
Mr. Wickham, from what you are hearing from small businesses
across the country, how have soft-on-crime policies like cashless
bail, raised felony thresholds, and lax prosecution changed their
day-to-day reality?
Mr. WICKHAM. As I said earlier, we really look at this on a dis-
trict or a jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction basis, and the criminal ele-
ments that we are dealing with are very sophisticated, and they
are hitting the areas where they know they will not be prosecuted.
So we have been working with individual units of government, try-
ing to be organized and coordinate——
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Mr. STAUBER. And then, when they are not prosecuted, though,
what does that do to the small business and the community when
the owners know that they can steal $300 because they are—$300
or $450 worth of product, and the $500 threshold is there. What
does it do to the small business owner?
Mr. WICKHAM. Extremely demoralizing. The lack of prosecution
results in these repeat offenders that we hear about time and time
again, whether it be Mr. Hrag’s story of being hit 35 times or a big-
box retailer being hit 600 times. This is a message that gets out
there——
Mr. STAUBER. Absolutely.
Mr. WICKHAM.—amongst the criminal network. We are work-
ing very hard to change the laws in all the States to allow for ag-
gregation so that they are not allowed to hit these stores just below
the felony limit and then do so on a repeated basis, and we would
like to work with this Committee to push all the States to allow
for aggregation of prosecution.
Mr. STAUBER. We just can’t be soft on crime. If you steal $350
or $550, they have to be prosecuted and dealt with. As you said,
these criminals—they know if there is a small business that you
can just steal from. We see it on a daily basis on the news across
this nation. It is demoralizing, and it affects people that want to
go into retail business. Why would they want to go into retail busi-
ness when they know they are going to lose $2,500 a month? Some-
times that is what makes or breaks them to be able to stay in busi-
ness.
Mr. Kalebjian, you talk about your coffee shop and you—it is a
third-generation now in San Francisco. I can’t imagine what your
grandfather and your father and what you are going through when
you see this happening and the officers are saying, my superiors,
‘‘just let it go, let it go.’’ It has got to be demoralizing. Your cus-
tomers see that. It has got to be devastating.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah.
Mr. STAUBER. I would imagine that you would probably have
more business when they know they are going in there and they
are safe as customers, and you would probably be able to hire more
workers when you know that it is safe and in your community that
they prosecute——
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah.
Mr. STAUBER.—even a cup of coffee, they prosecute. It is that
broken windows theory, right?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes.
Mr. STAUBER. You prosecute the little things, right? Tell us a
little bit more what it has been like for you.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Thank you, Congressman. Well, you can thank
Prop 47 that was passed in 2014 where our threshold is $950. So
you can steal anything.
Mr. STAUBER. Wait a minute. In California——
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. STAUBER.—your legislators said $950?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah. And last year——
Mr. STAUBER. Wait a minute. I have got to get this right. $950
in California, and you don’t get prosecuted unless it is above that?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes, sir.
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Mr. STAUBER. Unbelievable.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. And we tried—we passed another prop, Prop
37, which was a Band-Aid to Prop 47 that said, ‘‘well, now you can
do it twice, but after the third time, then we will prosecute.’’
Mr. STAUBER. We cannot follow California in anything. This is
just another example. Can you imagine? I was a small business
owner for 31 years. We could never stand business. That is ridicu-
lous.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah.
Mr. STAUBER. I yield back.
Mr. ELLZEY. I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from Kentucky for
5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to start by echoing the words of the Chairman and
thank Congresswoman Nydia Velázquez for her amazing service.
La Luchadora has been a fighter for the people, for small busi-
nesses across this country, and a historic tenure in Congress, and
we are all going to miss you incredibly. So I just want to start by
thanking you in what will be the first of many times we thank you
over the next year.
So I want to get into cybersecurity and go into that a little bit
right now. I was in a small business before coming to Congress
where this is a real threat. And this is the kind of thing where,
you know, people don’t want to go through the trainings, but they
have got to go through the trainings because the emails are coming
through, and if you are a small business, you cannot afford these
types of attacks that are coming from people who are trying to ex-
tort you for money. They affect everybody, but for small businesses
who have limited resources, it is really and truly a problem. So you
guys have highlighted that problem today.
But I also want to say that, because we are here in Congress, a
lot of the problems you guys are talking about, they are real prob-
lems. They are local problems. They are State problems. And they
are real, but here in Congress, we have got to think, what can we
do for everybody across this country from the federal government?
And one of the things we have had is a Cybersecurity and Infra-
structure Security Agency known as CISA. This has been an effec-
tive way of dealing with some of these cybersecurity threats and
helping out our State and local partners. However, when President
Trump came into office, he has gutted the Cybersecurity and Infra-
structure Security Agency. It is our premier cyber agency. It has
enjoyed years of bipartisan support, but Donald Trump decided to
tear it down. Now, why did he decide to tear it down? He tore it
down because he doesn’t like CISA Director Chris Krebs for stating
that the 2020 Election was secure. That contradicts the President’s
lies about widespread fraud.
But here is the thing. That personal vendetta he is carrying out
against CISA has real impacts because, while now the agency in
charge of combating cybersecurity is gone, the cybersecurity is
more relevant than ever, and people are still—our small busi-
nesses, our local governments, and other entities are at great risk
of exploitation.
In Kentucky alone, we have seen ransomware attacks against
small businesses, county governments, local police departments,
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schools, universities, and healthcare providers all happening. Real
problems. These attacks, they leave us all vulnerable. And we have
to take that seriously, even if the President is not right now.
So, Ms. Plaggemier, on the National Cybersecurity Alliance’s
website, CISA is listed as a government partner. Can you tell us
about how the cuts to the agency have been harmful to the efforts
to keep small businesses cyber secure?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. Our relationship is mainly with external af-
fairs in the public campaigns that we run. So I don’t have firsthand
knowledge of CISA’s work with small businesses. I know that all
the resources that they provided in the past are still available. You
can use templates to make your own tabletop exercise. There is a
phishing simulation training available. There is all the information
that we work on together with external affairs at CISA to provide
public education. But I can’t speak specifically to how they may or
may not have helped small businesses in the past.
I can say that, when I talk to small businesses, you know, it is
not really the case—it is not really rational to think that the fed-
eral government or even federal law enforcement can provide
hands-on support when every small business has a security inci-
dent, right? It just doesn’t scale in that way. So that is why I think
public-private partnership and the fact that this is a—cybersecurity
is a bipartisan issue—I think that is really, really important. I
mean, we have been partnering with DHS before there was even
a CISA for 22 years, and we are really proud of that partnership
over the years.
Mr. MCGARVEY. And I think it is important. I think it is impor-
tant that we focus on cybersecurity, particularly in the federal gov-
ernment. There are crucial cybersecurity programs that are essen-
tial to this objective, like those that focus on cyber information
sharing, but the federal provisions facilitating this lapse at the end
of September, which is why we should reauthorize this, which is
why we should have this bipartisan——
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. We agree.
Mr. MCGARVEY. I want to change gears in the time I have got
left.
Mr. Wickham, you are with the Chamber of Commerce. And,
looking at the Chamber of Commerce and what you all have said
this year, the Chamber of Commerce estimates that the President’s
tariffs will impose a tax of slightly more than $200 billion on Amer-
ican small businesses this year. The Chamber of Commerce also
found that, in 2022—which is the year with the highest rate of re-
ported retail crime—retail losses where organized retail crime was
a significant driver amounted to $100 billion.
Is $200 billion bigger or smaller than $100 billion?
Mr. WICKHAM. Congressman, it is definitely bigger.
Mr. MCGARVEY. It is definitely bigger. Twice as big.
And here is the thing. This is what I want to get at. This is im-
portant. It is $100 billion. Cybersecurity is a big deal. We need to
focus on crime for small businesses. But, in this Committee, where
there is a $100-billion loss due to crime, there is a $200-billion loss
according to Chamber of Commerce right now to small businesses
because of the President’s tariff policies, and we have yet to have
a single hearing on it or to address this and how it impacts small
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businesses. I think we need to focus on these types of things as
well as some of the local issues that we are talking about today.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you.
I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Kalebjian, I would like to start with you. Did you come out
here from San Francisco? Is that where you said?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes, Congressman.
Mr. ELLZEY. Okay. Well, thanks for coming out here and joining
us.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Thank you.
Mr. ELLZEY. You are a third-generation business. Did your
grandfather immigrate from Armenia?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Lebanon, sir.
Mr. ELLZEY. From Lebanon. And he started this business after
immigrating here and started this coffee business, which has been
in your family for three generations, except—I am assuming at
some point in time it was safe to operate and you were profitable
and you had no problems finding employees. When did that stop?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. That has never—that has always been—that
has always been a challenge—ongoing challenge.
Mr. ELLZEY. But have you felt a lack of security and safety re-
cently——
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes, Congressman.
Mr. ELLZEY.—with the previous mayor in San Francisco? Is it
starting to turn around with the new administration?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes, Congressman. Actually, Mayor Lurie, who
is an heir of the Levi’s brand, has done a fantastic job so far.
Mr. ELLZEY. And why has she done a good job where the pre-
vious administration failed?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Well, he is a businessman. And his number
one point is the city of San Francisco relies on small business. And
he spends every single day walking the streets talking to small
businessowners focused on security, crime, and business.
Mr. ELLZEY. Has there been a change in police presence?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes.
Mr. ELLZEY. And so the previous administration didn’t do that?
I am really wanting to know because I haven’t been to San Fran-
cisco in years.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah, that was not the tactical decisions by
the previous administration.
Mr. ELLZEY. Okay. So are your employees starting to feel safer
in your city now, or are we still having problems?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. We haven’t had an issue at my store in the
past 4 months, which is right around the time when——
Mr. ELLZEY. Can you explain that?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Well, it is simple. We focus on preventing
homelessness, crime, theft, and you focus on what small businesses
need to survive.
Mr. ELLZEY. Do you have a police officer that comes in and fre-
quents your store for its fine coffee or something.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. We support the police officers often. And we
get fire department, the EMT, and the police officers coming in all
the time.
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Mr. ELLZEY. Okay. So it is still a Democrat administration, but
a different law-keeping and police enforcement philosophy. Correct?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. ELLZEY. So it is a nationwide problem based on policies, not
which side of the aisle you happen to sit on, but recognizing—as
a small businessman, your new mayor says, ‘‘We are putting cops
on the street to protecting these small businesses.’’
Because you can’t hire anybody if they don’t feel safe at work.
If a homeless person is coming into your place, spitting in your face
and stealing money from the tip jar, people aren’t going to work for
you.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Not only will they not work for me, but cus-
tomers will not come by either. We get hit from both sides.
Mr. ELLZEY. And customers won’t come in because there—if
there is somebody who is mentally ill/on drugs, which now the line
is a lot blurrier——
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yep.
Mr. ELLZEY.—especially in some of these cities that have been
overrun by cheap drugs that are psychotic, you are going to have
a hard time continuing in your business. So I hope that this new
mayor continues those policies that are not partisan; it is common
sense——
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Common sense.
Mr. ELLZEY.—that you have to have a police presence in your
city to prevent crimes so businesses can thrive. Because businesses
can’t thrive if people aren’t walking down the street. If there is
needles and other stuff on the street, people aren’t going to walk
on them. You feel like the new mayor is doing a good job.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. He is doing a fantastic job. In fact, starting
next year, he is implementing new policy on the streets.
If you are caught doing drugs, you have two choices: You either
get arrested, or you go to a clinic that is being built on Sixth Street
in downtown San Francisco.
Mr. ELLZEY. I am glad to hear that. Okay. Well, I hope you
many years of success. And thank you for coming down.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Thank you, Congressman.
Mr. ELLZEY. By the way, before I get over to Ms. Plaggemier,
I would like to address Mr. Jackson.
I am glad you survived. I am glad you are staying in your com-
munity and working to make safer streets. And I just wanted to
say thank you for being here.
Ms. Plaggemier, as we talked to Mr. Kalebjian, the drip, drip,
drip of having money stolen from the tip jar, things like that, that
has a long-term effect. But I would like to also point out that Ms.
Velázquez mentioned, in one fell swoop, a business can be com-
pletely destroyed, and nobody knows about it except the
businessowner. People don’t understand; why did they go out of
business?
Tell me the rate of increase that we are seeing in small busi-
nesses in the United States being cyber—having cyber attacks and
just completely being put out of business? What does that look like?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. There is not really reliable data on how
many businesses go—because of the fact that you mentioned, right,
there is a lot of victim shame, victim blame.
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Mr. ELLZEY. Yeah.
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. We don’t always have reliable data. We
know that, when it comes to cyber crimes and scams and fraud,
only about 15 percent of entities report that to IC3.gov, the——
Mr. ELLZEY. So it is much worse than even we understand?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. It is probably worse than most of——
Mr. ELLZEY. Once they go out of business, there is no sense in
reporting it.
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. Exactly.
Mr. ELLZEY. Okay. Thank you very much. My time has expired.
I now recognize Ms. Scholten from Michigan for 5 minutes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, sir.
And thank you to our Committee for having this important hear-
ing today, and all of our witnesses for joining us to talk about this
issue. We take very seriously the impact that crime has on our
small businesses across the country. But I do take issue with the
Chairman’s statements that these are Democratic policies.
As we just heard from you, sir, Democrats can institute policies
that absolutely protect our businesses in even better ways. And,
currently, if we are going to have an honest hearing, we need to
look at the ways that Republican leadership has failed to fully fund
law enforcement policies and has even further failed to hold crimi-
nals accountable.
President Trump has pardoned Juan Orlando Hernandez, the
former President of Honduras, who was convicted by a federal
court for drug trafficking and weapons charges, virtually flooding
our streets with illegal drugs and guns—the number one killer of
pregnant women. Thank you for pointing that out, sir.
Mr. Hernandez once boasted that he would, quote, ‘‘stuff the
drugs up the gringo’s noses,’’ end quote.
How does this make us more safe as a community? Let’s look at
what our Republican President is doing or not doing to keep our
streets safe.
Earlier this year, Republicans introduced an appropriations bill
that would slash billions of dollars from public safety funds. The
Trump administration slashed millions in grant awards—88 mil-
lion—I want to read this because this is so important—88 million
in grant awards for substance abuse treatment, mental health
services, and programs that team with police and with health pro-
fessionals to help divert crime—Programs that you are talking here
that directly impacted your small business.
If we are going to have a serious hearing about this, let’s have
a serious hearing about this and talk about where the policies are
doing the most good work to keep our small businesses safe.
Mr. Jackson, my first question is for you. How does the avail-
ability of guns in the streets escalate otherwise nonviolent inci-
dents inside resale spaces, like disputes, shoplifting encounters, or
customer conflicts?
Mr. JACKSON. Yes, as I said earlier, it turns any situation into
a near fatal one. And I know we have a few members of law en-
forcement that were here earlier. But the presence of a firearm also
makes it dangerous for our law enforcement officials. And that is
why States like Florida pushed forward the first-ever red flag law
at the State level to disarm those folks who are in a moment of cri-
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sis. And we know that Republicans have fought for this; law en-
forcement has fought for this. But many leaders on both sides of
the aisle have fought to keep guns out of the hands of those who
are in that moment of crisis before that conflict happens that
makes it dangerous for everyone present.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. And we are
so glad that you survived to continue to do the advocacy that you
do.
Gun safety remains a top issue in my district. In Kent County
alone, 14.2 percent of all fatal injuries are gun-related. It comes as
no surprise that the great threat of gun violence has a huge threat
on residents and small businesses alike. I am glad that that is such
an important part of the conversation today.
I want to switch gears as well and turn to Ms. Plaggemier, and
second—my next question is for you. Your organization’s 2025,
2026 cybersecurity attitudes and behaviors report found that 52
percent of employed participants have never received training on
the security or privacy risks of artificial intelligence tools. It is just
astounding.
My bill, the AI-WISE Act, would help to educate small
businessowners on those risks. I am so proud of the bipartisan sup-
port that bill has received in this Committee. Can you explain why
an AI user should be knowledgeable on the risks of AI?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. Yeah, because it is not just about what you
are getting back, the results you are getting from whatever AI tool
you are using. We are really focused on the work that we are using
it to do or the information that we are using it to find. And we for-
get that it is not Google. What we are putting in there, we are giv-
ing away to the world, literally.
So, if you look at this year’s report, you will also see we ask peo-
ple how many people are actually giving away company informa-
tion to AI. It is a pretty high percentage. It is up from last year.
And then this year we asked them just what is it that you are
sharing with an AI tool that you probably shouldn’t be. It is con-
fidential business plans. It is customer information. It is, you know,
things like code that your company has produced that your devel-
opers have produced. It is information that really shouldn’t be pub-
lic.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
for 5 minutes.
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Preserving law and order is a fundamental component of fos-
tering a secure environment for small businesses and entrepre-
neurship to thrive. Businesses depend on the protection of prop-
erty, employees, and customers in order to be profitable and to at-
tract investment.
Unfortunately, in cities across the United States, like Wash-
ington, D.C.; Chicago; St. Louis, the embrace of radical pro-crime
policies like cashless bail, limitations on police, restrictions on self-
defense have empowered criminals and victimized innocent citizens
and businesses.
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I am going to start with Mr. Wickham. In your testimony, you
highlight how small businesses have faced the brunt of rising prop-
erty and retail crime in the last few years. Can you expand on
what government policies you believed have contributed most to
the forms of crime that most commonly victimized small busi-
nesses?
Mr. WICKHAM. Yes, Congressman.
Mr. DOWNING. Your microphone, please.
Mr. WICKHAM. Yes, Congressman. When we talk to our small
businesses, the issue that they are most concerned about is lack of
law enforcement funding and prioritization. The second is de-
creased prosecution policies. Addressing it at the initial reporting
of the crime, we have statistics from our friends at the National
Retail Federation that 64 percent of businesses reported less than
half of the crime incidents in their stores. And the reason most
cited was lack of law enforcement support.
Mr. DOWNING. So, I——
Mr. WICKHAM. On the other hand, you have members who are
very concerned about repeat offenders where prosecution policies—
because the laws are not updated to allow for aggregation of the
thefts, the sophisticated criminals are hitting the same businesses
over and over again.
Mr. DOWNING. So how has this crime within these neighbor-
hoods, how has this impacted the ability of entrepreneurs to attract
investment?
Mr. WICKHAM. It is fundamental. One of our strongest cham-
bers is in the State of Missouri. And they were so concerned about
crime that they took the rarest step for a Chamber of Commerce
of surveying their members about crime. And they found that 90
percent of their CEOs were concerned about public safety and 70
percent of them saw it as a factor for the State’s competitiveness.
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you.
Mr. WICKHAM. But you cannot attract businesses to your area
if there is a public safety concern.
Mr. DOWNING. I appreciate your responses there. I can move on
a little here. I want to transition to discussing cybersecurity
threats that plague small businesses, particularly given the rising
impact of artificial intelligence. So I am going to move to Ms.
Plaggemier.
In your testimony, you alarmingly emphasize that cyber crimi-
nals have adopted AI faster than most small businesses. So what
new capabilities has AI unlocked for cyber criminals in targeting
small businesses?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. You don’t need a bunch of criminals with de-
vices all launching attacks. You can use a bunch of devices on one
person with AI launching attacks at scale. It is—you know, you
have the scam centers around the globe where people have been
human-trafficked into these scam centers. Mainly in Asia, there is
hundreds of thousands of people in these scam centers. And they
aren’t just perpetrating crimes like pig butchering on individual
citizens; they are also perpetrating crimes on small businesses.
Mr. DOWNING. Right.
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Ms. PLAGGEMIER. At the end of the day, we are all individuals,
and we are all targeted whether we work at a large enterprise or
whether we work at a small business.
Mr. DOWNING. Right.
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. So they were using a lot of automation to
conduct those crimes that is a way that really, really scales for
them.
Mr. DOWNING. No, I appreciate that. You know, as a former se-
curities regulator in dealing with things like, you know, pig butch-
ering and some of these—use of these tools for defrauding people
is really, really pretty alarming.
So how does a lack of knowledge about these cybersecurity
threats prevent small businessowners from implementing adequate
cybersecurity measures?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. Our belief is that they just don’t understand
enough about basic IT hygiene—some of the things that I listed in
my written statement. It is that lack of knowledge, that lack of
education, some of those myths that I mentioned where they, you
know—‘‘Oh, my IT guy has it handled, or my managed services
provider has it handled,’’ and they don’t know enough about the
risk to manage the risks. So they don’t know what questions should
they ask when they hire an IT person or a manned services pro-
vider? How do they hold that person accountable? What sort of
data in reporting should they be looking for to say that we are ac-
tually decreasing the risk to the business? So that is where we
come in with small business education. In laymen’s terms, there is
a lot of tech speak; there is a lot of jargon out there, and we try
to cut through all that so that the businessowner understands how
to manage it.
Mr. DOWNING. Right. I appreciate that. Unfortunately, I have
run out of time. I just want to acknowledge that the AI WISE Act
that I am coleading with Representative Scholten is trying to at
least attack a part of that. But I thank you for that time.
And, with that, Mr. Chair, I yield.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New Jersey
for 5 minutes.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for
holding this hearing.
And thank you to our witnesses for joining us.
America’s small businesses are the backbone of our communities,
the first employers for millions of families, and the anchors of local
economic life. I think we can all agree crime holds businesses back
from reaching their full potential for their communities they serve.
It makes it harder for businessowners and workers to keep their
families fed and bills paid.
Protecting and supporting small businesses is the only way for
our economy to prosper. On top of everything, small
businessowners open their doors every morning only to be hit from
every direction in this Trump era. In spite of backward Republican
proposals that worsen crime, we have seen historic drops in crime
over the last few years, but we can still do better. And we can re-
duce crime in ways that are smart and empathetic. Our focus must
remain on advancing evidence-based policies that foster real sta-
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bility for our small businesses. Policies like those implemented in
Newark, New Jersey, my home city, and our great Congressional
District 10.
We are very proud to be charting a pathway forward that uses
community-based holistic methods to reduce crime by embracing a
public health approach. Newark has seen a violent crime drop over
50 percent in the last decade and, in 2024, saw the lowest rate of
homicides in 60 years.
This success is a testament to how we empower our community
to be coproducers of public safety instead of outdated policies that
do nothing more than lock people away and ignore the real cause.
With that, I want to go to Mr. Jackson. Mr. Jackson, first of all,
I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you for
sharing your story and for all of the advocacy work that you have
done over your time, not just here in D.C. but across the country.
It is great to see you again, and thank you for being here.
It is unfortunate that you have to be here and watch my col-
leagues across the aisle talk out of both sides of their mouths this
morning. While we talk about small businesses, you know, seeing
an increase in attacks from, you know, violence, we also see that
they have reduced so much in antiviolence funding from closing
down and shutting down the Office of a Gun of Violence Preven-
tion, all of these things that we constantly see happening, but yet
they are concerned about law enforcement and concerned about
crime in our communities. I find it, you know, baffling to hear that.
Small businesses often note that crime around their storefronts
is tied to broader challenges, especially in urban communities. For
example, lack of youth engagement, mental health support, and
neighborhood instability.
Based on your experience, how do investments in these preventa-
tive services, such as job training and therapy, improve safety out-
comes and reduce risk and operating costs for the small businesses
located there?
Mr. JACKSON. Well, we, in the last 2 years, 2023 and 2024, we
saw a 31 percent reduction in homicides. And, this year, we are on
pace for another 18 percent reduction, which means we have cut
the crisis of gun violence and gun-related homicides in half due to
these investments and investing in mental health where the Bipar-
tisan Safer Communities Act put us at the gold standard for youth
mental health, investing in community violence intervention, in-
vesting in law enforcement, investing in victim services. We added
$2 billion in victim services. And all of that helps prevent violence
before it happens, prevent violent crime before it happens, as well
as, when you couple that with holding gun dealers and the gun in-
dustry accountable from putting guns into communities or at the
hands of those who are most at risk.
But, right now, as you shared, it is all under siege. $820 million
in grants were canceled, 373 awards in the Department of Justice
alone. That included $3.5 million in Project Safe Neighborhoods, a
law enforcement program created under the President Bush admin-
istration. There was significant cuts for police training. There was
even a $13 million cut to the Rural Violent Crime Reduction Initia-
tive.
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And so we are watching all the infrastructure that was put in
place that has seen historic results 3 years in a row, being disman-
tled, defunded, and destroyed. And, luckily, we have States like
New Jersey that have their own Office of Violence Prevention that
are investing at the State level to offset these slashes, but we are
seeing so many States and cities really suffer in this infrastructure
being destroyed.
Mrs. MCIVER. Yes, thank you so much for sharing that. Once
again, you know, across the aisle, my colleagues—rather it is a
woman or a man always lying, but one thing that doesn’t lie is the
number and the data. Thank you for sharing. With that, I yield
back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of Pennsylvania
for 5 minutes.
Mr. MEUSER. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you very much to all our witnesses.
A very important subject. That is why we are happy to be on this
Committee and have you here testifying.
So we just heard my colleague talk about data and facts and
truth. You know, if it weren’t for the amount of stress small busi-
nesses would have if we did not pass the One Big Beautiful Bill,
as it is known, 199A—it is 20 percent tax increase on small busi-
ness. Bonus depreciation. R&D tax credit. No tax on tips. Tax on
overtime. Income tax reductions. Energy costs have come down.
Regulations are minimizing. Inflation is far lower than it was be-
fore. And now we are talking about crime. These are all things that
Republicans voted for and Democrats’ facts and data voted against.
I mean, almost a hundred percent of them, if not a hundred per-
cent, crime.
You know I am from Pennsylvania—Philadelphia. We have a dis-
trict attorney up there that thinks it is a wonderful idea never to
prosecute those who commit a gun—illegal gun carrying crimes.
Now somebody wants to blame it on guns. It is clear that, when
you prosecute less than 30 percent—it used to be 70 percent just
a few years ago in Philadelphia. Our crime is over the top.
Chicago, New York, Detroit, Charlotte, crime in San Francisco.
Okay. The crime levels are, in some cases, simply not being re-
ported, as they are not in Philadelphia. Yet, you do know homi-
cides—homicides are almost as high on a population basis as Chi-
cago. You know, what is even worse? I looked up what were the
worst cities in the world on a per capita basis for murders? You
know what is behind Chicago and Philadelphia? Nairobi. And they
have something there where they are out killing women for some
crazed reason. Okay.
This is the United States, and so we got a big problem, and this
is just one of the problems I think facing small business. And, if
we ignore it and act like money will save everything, that is never
going to get us there, frankly. I mean, it is unbelievable. I mean,
they want to double down on every mistake being made with more
cash.
So, Mr. Wickham, let me just start with you. What do you say
about this? You started saying how, when gun violence is not
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being—people using guns is not being prosecuted, I mean, what
sort of effect is that on small business these days?
Mr. WICKHAM. It really sets up a challenging environment for
all businesses and communities where there is no consequence for
criminal activity. And, when a store is hit repeatedly, the first
thing they are going to have to do is look at raising prices and
eventually closing their doors. And we have a saying at the U.S.
Chamber: No business should have to close because of crime.
Mr. MEUSER. And what about the fact that people don’t want
to come downtown when they are seeing riots and problems and all
kinds of antipolice? They are saying we are not funding the police.
What about in the streets? I don’t want to get political here. But
when was the last time we saw anybody in the Democratic Party
denounce the protesting that is existing in front of all of these
stores? Is that a problem too? Is that less traffic?
Mr. WICKHAM. There is no challenging the fact that, when you
have high-crime rates in an area, it is extremely destabilizing to
businesses.
Mr. MEUSER. My little town of——
Mr. WICKHAM. As well——
Mr. MEUSER. Right outside my district, people aren’t showing
up. Ms—sorry. If you could elaborate on cyber. Let’s veer a little
bit here, Ms. Plaggemier. What are small businesses—I know some
companies that have been hit by cyber don’t report it, call me and
ask, ‘‘What should we do?’’ That sort of thing. What are the ave-
nues that you could tell us that we need to accentuate so small
business, medium-sized business, even large businesses, can find
answers if they feel they are under cyber threat?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. We have a lot of answers on
staysafeonline.org. We have a lot of educational materials that are
free. We are a nonprofit. I think the—what we need are more
points of leverage to get businesses to be proactive, right? I mean,
cybersecurity people like to say there are two kinds of businesses;
there are the ones that have had a security incident, and the ones
that have had one and just don’t know it yet. So it is really about
getting people to engage sooner before something catastrophic hap-
pens that puts them out of business.
Mr. MEUSER. Okay.
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. And that is really the problem that we see
is getting their attention. They are very, very busy places. So find-
ing those points of leverage, we have tried to work with franchisers
to get franchisees to take training. We have had programs in the
past with the SBA, and we will continue those. It is just—it is find-
ing more and more way to get with——
Mr. MEUSER. I am out of time. If you can provide us just some
of that information, I would appreciate it, and maybe in your com-
ments.
And, Mr. Kalebjian, I hope you get a chance to express your situ-
ation and all. And I am sorry I missed it earlier. I yield back, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Tran from the great State of California for
5 minutes.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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And thank you to the Ranking Member and yourself for con-
vening today’s hearing.
Thank you to all the witnesses who traveled here. I want to ad-
dress my colleague’s comments slighting my State. I am proud to
represent California, the fourth largest economy in the world, with
4.2 small businesses representing 99.9 percent of all businesses in
the State.
Let me just say that California farmers, many of them small
businesses, supply 62 percent of the country’s fruit and nuts, and
56 percent of the vegetables to feed our country. California con-
tinues to be instrumental in the success of this nation, economi-
cally.
Mr. Jackson, Jr., thank you for being so open and vulnerable
about your experience as a gun violence survivor. According to the
Trump administration fiscal year 2026 budget request, they are
proposing to cut $1 billion in funding across 40 Department of Jus-
tice programs supporting police departments that directly impact
enforcement in violent crime, hate crimes, and drug crimes.
The Trump administration has also requested $545 million in
cuts from the FBI, $468 million from the ATF, and $212 million
from the DEA, which would limit the federal government’s ability
to fight major crime and combat international drug trafficking.
The Chairman’s sentiment about small businesses not reporting
crimes because of lack of resources to address these crimes is abso-
lutely true. As a small businessowner, my wife and I saw multiple
break-ins last year. And there is just not enough resources to help
us and other small businesses with these attacks. And that is why
I am concerned about these cuts the administration is directly and
indirectly making to local and federal law enforcement.
What are your thoughts on those cuts, and how would those
funding cuts impact America’s public safety and small businesses?
Mr. JACKSON. Yeah, again, I want to echo what you are sharing
is that we have solutions that work, and we know that investing,
especially in federal law enforcement has seen significant results.
In the last 2 years, we were able to prosecute over 600 gun traf-
fickers. We shut down over 200 gun stores that were violating the
law. We even shut down 350 websites that were illegally selling
machine gun conversion devices. And all of that has helped us get
this reduction of 13 percent in violent crime and 31 percent in
homicides.
But, as opposed to being applauded for that and building up the
ATF, as you shared, there has been a 30 percent cut to that with
over $460 million being cut. And that is not the approach that we
need if we truly care about investing in law enforcement and keep-
ing our small businesses safe.
And we are also seeing, to build on your point, the cities and
States that are investing are seeing results. Philadelphia, as you
shared earlier, they are down 17.5 percent in homicides this year.
California is down 9.5 percent in violent crime. And property
crimes are down 15.4 percent in California. So we are seeing that
States and cities that lean in and invest in law enforcement and
community-based strategies in violence prevention efforts are see-
ing tremendous results, historic results, if you will.
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Mr. TRAN. Thank you for that. Mr. Jackson, Jr., as you know,
the Trump administration is aggressively ramping up immigration
enforcement across the nation. In an effort to fulfill his campaign
promise of mass deportation, he has terrorized immigrant commu-
nities across the nation, including in my home district spanning
both L.A. and Orange County.
The White House has also diverted a considerable number of fed-
eral agents from their jobs of preventing serious crimes and jeop-
ardizing important public safety initiatives, including protecting
American families from gun crime to patrol the streets of major cit-
ies.
And, according to a report published by the CATO Institute, ICE
has diverted more than 28,000 federal law enforcement agents from
their jobs of investigating and preventing serious crimes to now
conducting civil immigration operations.
Furthermore, reporting suggests that ATF has reassigned 80 per-
cent of its special agents to immigration enforcement. Likewise, the
FBI has had 23 percent of agents allocated to focus on immigration
enforcement. How effective is that diversion in fighting and pre-
venting violent crime?
Mr. JACKSON. It is ineffective. It is dangerous, and frankly it
is a huge waste of resources. I mean, the opportunity cost is major
when you deplete a workforce that is already very small, that is in-
specting gun dealerships, that are trying to break down black mar-
ket rings of firearm sales. And we know that illegally sold guns are
the fastest guns to arrive on the crime scene, whether it is a homi-
cide or other forms of crime.
And so to dismantle and pretty much shut down the ATF leave
cities and States really vulnerable to guns illegally influence their
communities and frankly get into the hands of those who have the
mindset of committing crime.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you. With that, Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Bresnahan from the great State of Pennsyl-
vania for 5 minutes.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the Rank-
ing Member.
And thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
Although, I have had—I have to say I am disappointed that we
must actually have a hearing on this topic at all. But, as we have
heard today, American small businesses are increasingly forced to
factor in safety measures into their business plans to guard against
shoplifting and retail theft on top of managing inventory, supply
chains, and staffing needs.
Pennsylvania knows this reality all too well. Our commonwealth
ranks fifth in the nation for retail crime and suffers the highest
total value of stolen goods in the country, averaging $430 per resi-
dent. This is unacceptable and preventable. Retail crime threatens
the very existence of mom-and-pop shops in northeastern Pennsyl-
vania. These businesses simply cannot budget for loss or absorb the
hit of merchandise walking out the door.
Gerrity supermarkets, with 10 locations across northeastern
Pennsylvania, from Clarks Summit to West Pittston, reported loss
of theft can reach over $2 million a year.
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As Members of the Small Business Committee, we have a respon-
sibility to focus on policies that help our small, local businesses
stay open and stay safe.
My first question, Mr. Wickham, can you explain or expand more
on the impact of retail theft and crime on the people that experi-
ence it firsthand, small businessowners and their employees, as
well as the broader community, and the neighborhoods these busi-
nesses operate in?
Mr. WICKHAM., stories like our colleague Hrag’s are brought to
the U.S. Chamber whereby there has been an incident that causes
employees to want to leave, causes shoppers to not want to come
to that business. And then eventually that business has to close its
doors and that has a profound impact on the community. We en-
courage those small businesses in the area to coordinate, to try to
take a preventative attitude towards stemming some of these
things because it is so systemic. It is not just the small business
down the block. It is the whole block that has a problem when
there is an incident.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Has there been any case studies or sugges-
tions? Congressman Meuser had referenced Wilkes-Barre. And we
have cities like Scranton and Stroudsburg and Hazleton. That we
have big-city problems right in our own backyard. We have five
interstate highway systems that interconnect within northeastern
Pennsylvania. But is there anything specific that you can point to
within the community culture that you found to be successful in
mitigating some of these ramifications?
Mr. WICKHAM. Yes, the most successful cooperation I have seen
is when the prosecutors, law enforcement, and the business com-
munity get together in an organized fashion. We refer to them
shorthand as ORCAS, Organized Retail Crime Associations. Be-
cause the sharing of information is so important and it is so chal-
lenging for small businesses that don’t have a large umbrella cor-
porate office to unite their resources, so it is very important for the
small businesses to work together with the prosecutors, with law
enforcement, and with policymakers. To commend your State, the
Pennsylvania Chamber of Commerce supported a State law that
set up an Organized Retail Crime Office within the Attorney Gen-
eral’s Office. And, in just over a year, they have opened over 65 in-
vestigations, made more than 40 arrests, and recovered nearly $2
million in stolen goods, uniting those rural communities or smaller
midsized communities you are talking and some of the larger urban
centers.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, it is nice to know that, with the Attor-
ney General Dave Sunday, that there has been an initiative there.
In my last life, I was a real estate developer, and we made in-
vestments into downtown Pittston and getting to work with the en-
trepreneur and, you know, just seeing the struggles in which they
go through every single day on making sure that their stores are
staffed, and, you know, they can keep up with industry and proc-
ess, you know, various different surges—whether that is a brewery,
Blind Cat Brewing or Grayson Park or, you know, a hair salon.
They are all dealing with the same reality. But I think it is impor-
tant that you have to have that cultural impact. And I think you
phrased it very eloquently about having the culture of the commu-
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nity come together to repeal or repel some of the crime. Also, what
is unfortunate is when you have a detective in the Scranton Police
Department that gets shot in the head—thank goodness he made
a great recovery—but it is still detrimental to the success of the
community. So I seem to be out of time. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Then gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Simon from the great State of California for
5 minutes.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to our Ranking Member.
Mr. Jackson, just briefly, thank you so much for being here. And
I followed the work of the office prior to betrayal of this adminis-
tration and then shutting it down. What I thought was so inter-
esting about the office is that the initiating group that brought the
Office of Violent Prevention together—is this correct—was faith
leaders from all over the country. Thank you. Thank you. And
thank you for your work.
My question next question is from my Bay Area brother. You are
in the sunset. My mama lives in the sunset. And I believe I know
where your coffee shop is, and I just really thank you for traveling.
It is a long flight. I take it every week, and we are just honored
and happy to have you here.
Just a couple questions that may seem a little off topic, but I be-
lieve that they will come together. Do your employees, sir, at the
coffee shop have health insurance?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes.
Ms. SIMON. And are you aware that the proposed cuts to the Af-
fordable Care Act and small business tax credits would make it
harder for small businessowners like yourself to provide health cov-
erage to your employees?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yes.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you, sir. You also told the Chronicle—and I
read the article, and I agree with you. I read the article about five
times in the last couple of days since I knew that you were com-
ing—out of deep respect. I agree with everything that you said in
that article.
But I want to be clear that I think it is going to get worse. While
you have a mayor—in fact, Mr. Lurie is actually not a business-
man. He led the Tipping Point Foundation, and I was on his board
for 8 years and really loved the work that they were doing at Tip-
ping Point to combat poverty and some of these root causes. And
I agree with your assessment at his being on the streets every day
working with small businesses, asking the questions about root
causes; it works. So I am really excited that you are in communica-
tion with the administration.
But this administration is cutting $1.7 billion from mental health
services that go into States, then counties, and in cities. And, in
fact, he has fired half of the mental health staff from SAMSA,
which is just shocking.
So my question is simple: How do we solve the mental crises that
you clearly and beautifully articulated in your Chronicle article—
mental health crises that are driving small crime, which feels like
big crime if you are running a small business in our communities
when this administration is defunding mental health in real time?
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If you think it was bad last year, can you imagine counties like San
Francisco way to Louisiana, Denver, you name it—they are going
to see their mental health grants slashed.
How do we support small businesses while stripping away your
ability to, one, keep your employees safe, insured? And the folks
who are causing the issues outside of your business, they will re-
ceive a deeper cut to the small services that they already receive
in their struggle for mental health. I would love to hear your
thoughts on that.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah, my thought is, I mean, Congressman
mentioned that California is the fourth largest economy in the
world. We are a big country.
Ms. SIMON. Absolutely.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. We can figure it out. And I think California
should be able to solve for that. One example, we could stop fund-
ing the train to nowhere that we have been spending $5 million per
mile to build that hasn’t been built for 10 years. So that would be
one example that I would give.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you so much. And I would—with my just
brief time left—want to bring it home that we have a federal gov-
ernment that has been explicit about defunding mental health
services that reach our cities in real time. So, in San Francisco and
Oakland where I represent, should a police officer take a mentally
ill person into custody, we know now that there are so few beds.
And, with that the cuts to mental health that are coming in real
time, there will be fewer beds and fewer services.
Now, train and infrastructures, those are very different parts of
our federal and local budgets. But health and human services,
when those real cuts hit our streets, I would hope that this Com-
mittee, we find it in our hearts to figure out how to push SBA,
push other parts of our federal government to fund real opportuni-
ties for our small businessowners to keep their storefronts safe, to
provide opportunities for our local and regional and state and fed-
eral law enforcement officers to actually have places to send folks
in their midst of crisis. And, again, I want that you for being here,
and I appreciate your advocacy.
Thank you so much, and I will yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Wied from the great State of Wisconsin for
5 minutes.
Mr. WIED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You know, it doesn’t matter if your business is in Green Bay or
New York City, Appleton, or Washington, D.C., retail crime nega-
tively and disproportionately impacts small businesses across the
United States. As a former small businessowner, I know firsthand
how detrimental crime is for small businesses.
A 2024 study found that almost 80 percent of small businesses
reported the annual cost of theft to be between $500 and $2,500
per year. While this may not seem like a lot to some, businesses
already operating on thin margins have a hard time recovering
from these losses, and it could be the difference between ending the
month in the black or ending the month in the red.
Retail crime is not the only way crime impacts small businesses.
In blue Democrat cities where police are prohibited from enforcing
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the law and district attorneys refuse to prosecute crimes, people
don’t feel safe shopping. They don’t feel safe going out to eat or
even going for a walk in the local park.
Next time you are in a city like Chicago or San Francisco, just
walk down the street. What used to be a bustling area filled with
local businesses are now boarded up and abandoned. This is a di-
rect result of Democrats doubling down on their failed soft-on-crime
policies, such as reducing penalties for retail theft and cashless
bail, which allows criminals to return to the street before the ar-
resting officer has finished their shift. These policies not only hurt
the small businesses but their customers and their staff as well.
Mr. Kalebjian, I always enjoy hearing directly from small busi-
nesses, and you have obviously carried on the legacy that you talk
about your dad and some of his advice, and I love hearing that.
You know, your father always taught you that incentives drive be-
havior, and that couldn’t be more true. Show me the incentive, and
I will show you the outcome. And right now our incentives tell peo-
ple that crime pays and accountability doesn’t.
But I would like to hear from you here today. As a small
businessowner, you have faced the onslaught of theft from a repeat
offender, and I did as well. What impact have you seen on people
willing to come into your store based on your experiences?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. You know, that specifically hasn’t been as big
because we do have a really, really tight community. But the im-
pact has gone more on me and my staff feeling helpless, feeling un-
safe, and sad. You know, the conversations instead of being, you
know, ‘‘It was busy today,’’ or, you know, ‘‘That customer came by
and said hi,’’ it was more of conversations like ‘‘Stanley came in
again, and this time he, you know, dropped the tip jar. We got to
replace it.’’ Those kinds of negative comments was impacting my
retail side of the business, as opposed to the customers because
they were supporting us throughout it.
Mr. WIED. So you have a good network of other businessowners.
I mean, tell us about your friends and businesses that are around
you. Tell me about——
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah, I mean, the example we talk about is
only—it impacts small businesses. You know, it impacts large busi-
nesses, too. We have a Walgreen’s pharmacy down the street that
employees would come to our shop every day to grab a couple of
coffee. We would ask them, and we would talk about how bad it
was. Well, guess what? That pharmacy is now closed because peo-
ple were just coming in and stealing a hundred—950 bucks every
single day. And even a big business like Walgreen’s can’t afford it.
And it is the only pharmacy in like a 2-mile radius. So now that
community has also lost a place to go get prescriptions.
Mr. WIED. Sir, you talk about this—something Congress could
do, which is shine a spotlight on the problem. I think we have to
admit there is a problem.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah.
Mr. WIED. And I think people need to all admit there is a prob-
lem—which—until you admit it, how do you find a solution? But
you talk about the heart of the problem as policy failures and lo-
cally, local prosecutors, and you talk about being constrained, they
are constrained by political choices rather than pursuing these
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cases. Can you explain locally how that has impacted you—the
local?
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Yeah, I mean, I mentioned this earlier on Prop
47, which was passed in 2014, which took, you know, a petty—
petty theft down to a nothing burger. And so that policy, granted
it starting in 2014, when COVID hit, everybody started to move
away from the downtown into—or the neighborhoods where we are.
And now it is a free for all.
I mean, you are literally passing a bill that says you can steal
up to 950 bucks, and you won’t get arrested. What is going to hap-
pen? What is the incentive? And then we passed Prop 37 last year,
which was a Band-Aid to it that said, ‘‘Well, now you can steal two
more times, but, after that, then we might arrest you,’’ as opposed
to just getting rid of Prop 47 altogether.
Mr. WIED. Well, thank you. And thank you for being a small
businessowner and continuing on the legacy that your—you know,
your family has done.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Thank you, Congressman.
Mr. WIED. We really appreciate that. You are the heart of Amer-
ica. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Olszewski from the great State of Maryland
for 5 minutes.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and to
our Ranking Member. And, of course, to our witnesses, I appreciate
the opportunity to discuss the impact of crime on small businesses
across our country today.
And it is true: Surges in retail and cyber crime put both our na-
tion’s employers and our consumers at risk. We in Congress should
be doing all that we can to stop crime. It is an issue that I was
passionate about when I was Baltimore County Executive before I
came here to Congress, where we made combating crime central to
helping small businesses grow and thrive.
And, in stark contrast to some of the hyperbolic defund-the-police
rhetoric I have heard earlier today, I was a Democrat, one of many
over the past years who invested in new and smart policing tactics.
I spent tens of millions of dollars in new local resources to support
our police department and public safety generally. But I also made
investments in prevention, because I know that we can be both
tough on crime, not only by holding people accountable—and we
should for their actions—but also by making those upstream in-
vestments to prevent crime from happening in the first place.
Our efforts were strengthened by smart and efficient federal
funding made possible by laws like the American Rescue Act and
the bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which granted billions of
dollars to States and cities for public safety and violence prevention
initiatives.
Through a $12.7 million grant from the CDC, Baltimore County’s
Department of Health and Social Services and the fire department
deployed peer outreach specialists and EMS clinicians trained spe-
cifically for peer outreach for nonfatal overdose victims and their
families, reducing the downstream impact of substance abuse on
our communities and our commercial users.
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Just yesterday, I heard it from our county that they don’t readily
know what the administration’s cuts are to that grant or what the
subsequent impacts will be to that program. This is a program that
led to a decrease in fatal overdoses by more than 40 percent in
2025, nonfatal overdoses down almost 25 percent, and fentanyl-re-
lated deaths down near 50 percent.
We sent corporals to the FBI on a cyber task force to learn about
how we can do more to fight cyber crime. We worked directly with
businesses and owners with programs like ROCA, an organization
that engages both young people and police officers to heal trauma
and drive change. Through federal grants, we installed enhanced
lighting, camera systems, and we also deployed more license plate
readers, expanding our mobile crisis units. And we put a 911 clini-
cian in our call center. We put the resources where there was
greatest need, and we saw significant impact.
But, again, these results were possible because of that strong col-
laboration among federal, state, and local leaders. Unfortunately,
as you have heard today, the Trump administration is now handi-
capping public safety by cutting and laying off people. States are
now dealing with a collective $500 million in revoked balances from
373 grants, undermining the very programs that keep our commu-
nities and businesses safe, and yet not a peep—not a peep—from
the other side of the aisle.
Still, I look forward to working with this Committee to draft and
uplift legislation that strengthens American small businesses on
this and many other issues.
I hope to get to two quick questions, Mr. Chairman. First is to
Mr. Jackson, the city of Baltimore, which you referenced, which I
am proud to now represent in Congress, has also experienced a sig-
nificant decrease in homicides, on track to have the lowest homi-
cide rate in 50 years. We have to keep doing more, but we are
proud of that progress. They were recently awarded $62 million
after a jury ruled in their favor against a Hanover-based firearm
shop for selling untraceable ghost guns. Still sales have increased
exponentially in recent years.
How has the federal government acted to reduce the spread of
ghost guns in your opinion?
Mr. JACKSON. Yes, historically, especially during the Biden-
Harris administration, that was a top priority to crack down on
ghost guns. There were multiple executive actions to move forward.
And, frankly, the largest manufacturer of ghost guns, Polymer 80,
was shut down after we made changes that required them to go
through licensing and background checks just like any other gun
dealer. So it is huge priority, and we also know that ghost guns are
leading to a lot of death and harm across our country.
And, lastly, I just wanted to congratulate you in Baltimore. I
mean, you all are seeing a 33 percent reduction in homicides this
year and literally are turning Baltimore into one of the safest cities
in the country. So congrats.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you. And a lot of credit to the mayor
and the partnership we had. And we are hopeful we can get back
to that.
Lastly, quickly, with my 20 seconds left, Ms. Plaggemier? I apolo-
gize. I get my name mixed up, too. With AI being an important
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part of cyber crime, would you agree that we should be wary about
efforts that lead to blanket restrictions on the regulation of AI, as
it drives and fuels these cyber crimes?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, AI
has just been—has poured fuel on the fire of cyber crime.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
I yield, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Schmidt from the great State of Kansas for
5 minutes.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I appreciate the witnesses being here.
Before I started serving in this role, I spent 12 years as a State-
level law enforcement official as a prosecutor. And, before that, I
was a local prosecutor in municipal court. Nobody has talked about
municipal court that I have heard yet today, but an awful lot of
these retail crimes wind up in city courts around the country,
which is they are different animals from State courts or federal
courts.
In fact, I have got a friend who was a career federal law enforce-
ment official and has later in his career become a State-level law
enforcement person. And, when I was attorney general in my State,
we actually returned some federal money back because it was just
a pain in the neck to deal with all the strain. Just let me do my
job. I don’t need help. I just need you out of the way. I don’t want
to partner with the Feds. I just want to do my job.
And this fellow called me the other day and said, ‘‘You know,
now that I am on the State side of this; I have a new appreciation
for how difficult even well-intended federal actions can be in some
of it.’’ So that is the context in which I ask, you know, a handful
of questions here.
Mr. Wickham, in your written testimony, you talked about aggre-
gating offenses. And I took your testimony to be how that conversa-
tion usually unfolds, which is, you know, if you got somebody who
steals three different little amounts over a fixed period of time
within a window, you add them up, and you get a bigger amount.
So you get to a higher level crime, or you get from a misdemeanor
to a felony, or whatever—which by the way is not—we used to ac-
tually sometimes deliver the charge as misdemeanors, even though
it was a felony amount, because you could actually get time in the
county jail for a misdemeanor, but you were going to get probation
for the low-level felonies. So, if you wanted to take somebody off
the street, you didn’t want to charge the felony. So my point is it
is a little more complicated sometimes than we make it in this
town.
But my question for you on aggregation, have you had any dis-
cussions, thoughts, or otherwise on perhaps a little bit of a dif-
ferent type of aggregation. Is there benefit to having a conversation
about whether aggregating repeated State crimes—for example,
stealing something in interstate commerce, which almost all of this
is—should at some point become a federal offense, a freestanding
federal offense in and of itself so you can get, not low-level guys,
but repeat offenders that do a lot of small things, into the federal
system?
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Mr. WICKHAM. That is a great question. And I appreciate your
perspective. Being in the room with experts like you and hearing
you saying that things are a little more complicated or there is a
little more nuance are the best way to pass information from pol-
icymakers, from prosecutors, to our small business members. So I
really appreciate that.
I think what underlies your concern is that oftentimes we are
seeing these networks are so broad that they can—with very small
amounts of people—be able to hit multiple jurisdictions, not only
in the State but outside the State. And is there a federal aspect
to it? We recently had an arrest in California where there were just
nine people hitting one specific big-box retailer 600 times.
And that is a valid question—are we getting to a point where
there needs to be some sort of national crime? And we support the
CORCA bill, the Combatting Organized Retail Crime Act, to have
a larger federal role here so that we can put the evolving nature
of these types of crimes, whether it be just 9 people or 900 people
throughout the United States, under a federal lens and to right-
size the laws to the problem at hand. So that is something that I
really hope that the upcoming debate on CORCA will bring out.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Because there is a time—I mean, I believe most
of these ought to be dealt with State and local, and the Feds ought
to stay out of them. But you ought to figure out the ones that are
better dealt with under federal law with federal tools and then give
the federal authorities the tools to do the job as opposed to having
to rely on State folks to find them, arrest them, stop them, ship
them to the Feds, and then maybe you get attention, and maybe
you don’t get attention, and it is you know—pick a lane, right? Pick
a lane.
So, you know, on that point, you know, one of the things we did
in Kansas on our watch—not really in this space, but a related fi-
nancial crime space—we finally got tired of dealing with our
friends in Washington, and we went to the regional enforcement
authorities and a number of the federal law enforcement agencies.
A lot of them were out of Kansas City, as it happened to be. So
they were close for us.
We sat down. We had a great working relationship with these
guys. And we said, ‘‘Hey, you guys come across a whole lot of lower
level crimes in the course of your work that the U.S. Attorney’s Of-
fice will never take up because they are not big enough. Can we
enter into an agreement where you will ship them to us, and we
will prosecute them—under State law, which is the key? Don’t
make me a federal prosecutor. I am a State guy. But your law en-
forcement guys have investigated them and worked them up.’’ And
we did that and got a lot of convictions. Is there any merit in that?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. WICKHAM. I would just like to first commend Kansas for
a lot of innovation and leadership. Wichita had a really big problem
with retail crime in the last few years, and Kansas has gotten
them resources. And then, secondly, having this conversation,
homeland security investigations——
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is up.
Mr. WICKHAM.—is really a critical—and they have regional of-
fices that can be helpful resources——
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Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is up.
I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from the great State of the New
Hampshire for 5 minutes.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to our witnesses for being here today for this
really important hearing.
I came here to Congress to really make our country safer, more
prosperous, and more free. Those three pillars work together, but
safety, public safety is really at the core and the root of the root
of what we have got to be doing here.
And, before I came to Congress, I served for years at the Depart-
ment of Justice. And one of the things—with all due respect to
county and local officials—and actually the utmost respect because
what I see every day in this work is how mission critical our State,
local, county partners are.
And, Mr. Wickham, you have pointed this out powerfully in your
testimony. Mr. Jackson, you have as well. And I appreciate all of
your service in government and your testimony today. But, you
know, what I saw at the Justice Department and what I see in this
job is partnership—there is a through line, in this hearing, what
I am hearing from all of you, partnership is at the core of how we
combat crime in this country. Whether it is partnership across gov-
ernment at every level and across branches, partnerships with the
private sector, partnership is the key.
I want to start by asking about our partnerships with local law
enforcement. And, Mr. Wickham, you pointed out in your testimony
just how important county attorneys are as gatekeepers in our
criminal justice system. When I was at the Justice Department, I
saw how these federal dollars really make a huge difference in the
work that law enforcement is able to do. We are asking them to
do more with less every single day. And so these grant programs—
you know, I serve on the Armed Services Committee. When I look
at the budget of the Department of Defense, nearly a trillion dol-
lars, and you look at the Department of Justice’s budget, you know,
they are being asked to do more with less every day. So I am deep-
ly concerned about the millions of dollars in cuts that we have seen
already this year to really successful and important Department of
Justice programs. And billions of dollars in proposed cuts for next
year’s budget.
So, Mr. Wickham, can you speak to what you have seen in your
work about the importance of federal programs—as much as they
need to be improved, how important they are as a lifeline to local
law enforcement?
Mr. WICKHAM. I think they are very important, and our num-
bers back that up that, when you are asking, ‘‘why is this a per-
sistent problem over time,’’ and people will point back to the fact
that it is underreported. Why is it being underreported? Our data
shows that the majority of those small businesses and retailers are
not reporting it because there is a lack of law enforcement support.
So, if, as Hrag has testified to, if there isn’t an accompanying law
enforcement presence there, that is going to discourage the report-
ing of this, and then we will just see repeat offenders. And then
that repeat offender builds up the frustration and increases the
risk of violence.
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So resources is really something that we are talking to both our
small businesses and our larger retailers, is something that is al-
most always brought up as a second or third concern.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I appreciate that.
I want to, Ms. Plaggemier, ask you to follow up on some of the
earlier discussion about how we measure the impact of cyber crime.
So, by some estimates, cyber crime is costing us more than $10 tril-
lion a year. Does that sound like a fair ballpark estimate? Do we
even have a way of estimating the overall dollar cost?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. I don’t know that we do. I think right now
we are seeing this conflagration of cyber crime scams and fraud.
And, traditionally, those have been handled as, like, three separate
pillars by financial services institutions, by corporations, even by
small businesses. But, if you start to peel the onion, you are going
to see some of the same bad actors, like the CCP, behind—things
that we would have considered just a run-of-the-mill scam is now
highly, highly organized and has a nation-state actor at the top of
the food chain. So it is hard to estimate.
Ms. GOODLANDER. If you had to give guidance to this Com-
mittee on the most significant thing we could do to combat cyber
crime, what is your recommendation?
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. I think, for small businesses, it is finding
those leverage points to get them to engage before the bad thing
happens. Whether that is through the SBA or other partnerships,
finding a way to encourage more small businesses to engage—the
owner themselves—and not just to think, ‘‘Oh, my IT guy has it
handled,’’ because your IT guy might not have it handled.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I appreciate that. I will be following
up with questions for the record.
But I just note that the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act
of 2015, an important provision of law that has allowed for some
measure of information sharing, is set to expire at the end of Janu-
ary, and we would very much welcome all of the witness’ assistance
in thinking through how we make sure that we keep that critical
lifeline of information alive. Thank you.
Ms. PLAGGEMIER. I agree. That is very important.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia for 5
minutes.
Mr. JACK. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. As a freshman,
one of the benefits of being a freshman is you get to ask questions
last.
And, as a component of that, I would welcome a chance, Mr.
Wickham, for you—I don’t know if you want to continue on what
you were discussing with my colleague, Mr. Schmidt, on some of
those recommendations right before that time expired—but give
you an opportunity to further your comments there.
Mr. WICKHAM. I appreciate your service, Mr. Jack. We have
had very good partnerships with the State of Georgia and attorney
general Carr on combating retail crime. I like to joke with your at-
torney general that he was in early on the issue of verified trans-
actions online. Georgia had that in place before the Federal IN-
FORM Act which we worked very hard to pass.
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The issue of coordination is—seems so basic, but when you and
I have a discussion about jurisdiction—which is so critical in this
area—people’s eyes roll back in their heads. It is just that we have
fiefdoms. What is the role of Congress? What is the role of the pol-
icymaker? What is the role of the prosecutor? And we really need
to hit this particular problem at all angles. We support CORCA,
the bill to coordinate efforts at the national level, and also those
individual decisions by prosecutors on what offenses they are going
to charge because those are equally important to this fight.
Mr. JACK. Thank you very much.
If I could shift to Mr. Kalebjian, I am curious. As we close this
hearing, it is important for us to hear from someone like yourself
who is directly impacted by this, and I welcome any closing
thoughts and comments from you as to how best our Committee
can serve you and serve our constituents combating these retail
crime thefts.
Mr. KALEBJIAN. Thank you, Congressman. I think having me
here speak on behalf of my brothers and sisters and making every-
body aware of the situation is great. I think we need to put pres-
sure on the States to have commonsense laws. I would argue that
what we had tried in the past has not worked. We were trying to
help people, but by pretending to help, we actually hurt not only
them but the communities and the small businesses.
We just need to make sure that any crime is considered a crime
no matter how small, to be able to enforce it so we have some type
of stability that will then create a common sense of community for
people, for businesses, and everybody that wants to do good and
live a happy, healthy life.
Mr. JACK. You know, it is interesting. I want to pivot back to
Mr. Wickham. You mentioned that the enforcement mechanism—
you know, I find at least in my community that I serve, you know,
a lot of the local mom-and-pop shops, they suffer from, you know,
that threshold. If it is under a thousand dollars, under $500, rarely
will you see that prosecuted.
I am curious, in addition to CORCA, what other ideas you may
have for us to navigate that because, invariably, it seems like the
criminals figure out what that threshold is and they pursue their
illicit theft right under it.
Mr. WICKHAM. We have talked a lot about aggregation of laws,
and that is something we are very happy to see increased action
by the States to allow either the attorney general or another pros-
ecuting official to get these multiple offenders who deliberately
cross jurisdictional lines because they know, one, they can either
steal below the minimum or, two, just commit what appears to be
a one-off in a particular jurisdiction.
But, going back to the example in California, where nine individ-
uals hit a big-box retailer 600 times, there is a point at which you
have to rule out these as one-offs, and we need to work together
to aggregate these offenses so that we can take these people off the
streets.
Mr. JACK. Thank you very much.
Ms. Plaggemier, I want to give you an opportunity in these clos-
ing 47 seconds as they tick by to offer any closing thoughts and
comments before this Committee.
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Ms. PLAGGEMIER. Yeah. One of the ideas that we have actu-
ally considered is—or a question we have asked ourselves is should
collectively small businesses around the country be considered a
critical national infrastructure sector? And I think there might be
some merit into looking into that concept because, when you look
at small businesses holistically, they are an enormous part of our
GDP and our employment and drive a huge part of the economy.
So I think looking at them like critical national infrastructure,
like we do utilities and financial services sector and all the other
sectors, might be one way to combat the problem of cyber crime af-
fecting small businesses.
Mr. JACK. Well, thank you all.
And, Mr. Jackson, thank you for your testimony as well. I
worked at the White House. So I have familiarity with that.
And I will yield back to our distinguished Chairman, Mr.
Schmidt.
Mr. SCHMIDT. [Presiding.] Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Cisneros from California for 5
minutes.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you very much, and I want to thank our
witnesses for being here today.
Mr. Wickham, welcome back. I am your last individual and the
last set of questions you will get here, so—before we can wrap up.
But, you know, I don’t want to restate the numbers and data
again that has been kind of mentioned throughout this hearing but
simply say that, when State and local governments focus on crime
and gun violence and invest in it, there is a change, right? Gun vio-
lence goes down and crime goes down. It does make a difference.
Unfortunately, the Trump administration cut—has cut programs
and diverted resources to fight gun violence and crime and instead
has diverted those resources towards immigration—you know, to-
wards targeting our immigration communities, immigrant commu-
nities that are not only the workforce for many of these small busi-
nesses, but they also shop at small businesses. And, for many of
them, these immigrants are the entrepreneurs who have started
thriving businesses in our communities. And, with that, I will get
to my questions.
Mr. Jackson, according to the Giffords Law Center, multiple
studies show a link between weakened public carry laws and in-
creased violent crime rates, some indicating an 11 percent to 15
percent increase in homicide and violent crimes after States de-
regulate concealed carry. As someone who has worked at both the
federal level and at the community level, how do you respond to ar-
guments that more guns in public equals less crime?
Mr. JACKSON. Well, all the studies that we have seen in recent
history have showed that that is false. And, if you need an exam-
ple, you can look at what is happening in our southern States
across the country. The States with the weakest gun laws and the
least amount of resources to prevent violence are seeing the
harshest impact of violence, and not just in cities, but in rural com-
munities who are losing veterans and our elder folks to moments
of crisis after being armed and not having the resources to remove
those firearms at least temporarily.
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And so this is huge. We have to make sure we continue to build
on progress to keep guns out of our public spaces and out of the
hands of those who are most at risk or most vulnerable, and the
States that are doing that are seeing tremendous results. States
like Massachusetts, New Jersey, and even California are seeing
historic reductions because of their strong gun laws combined with
those resources.
Mr. CISNEROS. And, just to expand on that, can you explain
how weak gun laws in one State can directly increase shooting
risks for small businesses across State lines?
Mr. JACKSON. Well, yeah. D.C. is a perfect example. We talked
about the terrible incidents that have happened in this city, includ-
ing the attacks on even our Armed Services. But 95 percent of the
guns that arrive in Washington, D.C., come from outside of the
city, and the same—it is the same case for Chicago. A third of the
illegal guns come from Indiana.
And so we know that a neighboring State with weak gun laws
is a breeding ground for illegal guns to flow into inner cities and
into communities. And, again, it is not just homicides. It also leads
to other forms of violent crime. Whether it is robbery or theft or
even retail crime, many of those guns are illegally trafficked.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you. Now, look, my grandfather was a
World War II veteran who came back from the World War II and
used his VA benefits to start a small business, a market. Unfortu-
nately—this was a long time ago, but, unfortunately, that store
was robbed one day, and he became a victim of gun violence and
died.
I want to thank you, Mr. Jackson, for sharing your story. But,
based on your understanding, what survivors—what do survivors
need most in the months and years after experiencing gun vio-
lence?
Mr. JACKSON. Yeah. In the short term, we need victim services.
We looked at—when someone is shot, the employer themselves—
the cost for their medical fees is upwards of $30,000. When I was
shot, it cost me around $20,000 in hospital costs alone.
But those victim service dollars are under siege. In fact, the
Trump administration has already cut $2 billion from the Crime
Victims Fund, and in fact, 24 States are now suing the Trump ad-
ministration because they don’t have those funds to support victims
of violent crime. And so we start with that as well as focusing on
efforts to prevent violence and then efforts to make sure we are
holding those accountable who cause that crime.
Mr. CISNEROS. With that, thank you all again for being here
today. Thank you for your answers, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields back.
And I also would like to thank our witnesses for being here today
and for your testimony.
Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to submit ad-
ditional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the
Chair which will be forwarded to the witnesses. So I will ask the
witnesses to please respond promptly if that happens.
If there is no further business, without objection, the Committee
is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:14 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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[Ms. Lisa Plaggemier did not submit her responses to QFR’s in
a timely manner.]
[Hon. Gregory Jackson did not submit his responses to QFR’s in
a timely manner.]
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APPENDIX
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Æ
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-119hhrg62204.pdf
- Size
- 76,265,518 bytes
- SHA-256
- 121c8a410218f216544bd396d86ffd31d728405ca9305801906e7f064c6c04ea
- Our copy
- CHRG-119hhrg62204.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov