Leveling the Playing Field: Fostering Opportunities for Small Business Contractors (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, September 10, 2025)
Summary
Transcript of a September 10, 2025 hearing of the House Small Business Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure, Small Business Committee Document Number 119-019, on opportunities for small business contractors. Nick LaLota and Gil Cisneros gave the opening statements. Witnesses were Rao Anumolu of ASR International Corp., Michael Ramos of Raymond Global in Conyers, Georgia and Sue Tellier of JetCo Federal in Grand Rapids. Added material came from Associated Builders and Contractors and a long list of contractors, including Aleto, Inc., Karrington Clinical Laboratory, DEFUTEK, Metis Technology Solutions, Kilda Group and CarINTech.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
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“Leveling the Playing Field: Fostering Opportunities for Small Business Contractors (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, September 10, 2025).”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/leveling-the-playing-field-fostering-opportunities-for-small-business-a3e5b20de8/
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LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD: FOSTERING
OPPORTUNITIES FOR SMALL BUSINESS
CONTRACTORS
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING AND
INFRASTRUCTURE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD
SEPTEMBER 10, 2025
Small Business Committee Document Number 119–019
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
61–897 WASHINGTON : 2026
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
NICK LALOTA, New York
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
TONY WIED, Wisconsin
ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
BRIAN JACK, Georgia
TROY DOWNING, Montana
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
GIL CISNEROS, California
KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
GEORGE LATIMER, New York
DEREK TRAN, California
LATEEFAH SIMON, California
JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire
LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director
(II)
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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Nick LaLota .................................................................................................... 1
Hon. Gil Cisneros ..................................................................................................... 2
WITNESSES
Mr. Rao Anumolu, President & Chief Executive Officer, ASR International
Corp., Hauppauge, NY ......................................................................................... 6
Mr. Michael Ramos, President, Raymond Global, Conyers, GA .......................... 8
Ms. Sue Tellier, President and Owner, JetCo Federal, Grand Rapids, MI ........ 10
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. Rao Anumolu, President & Chief Executive Officer, ASR Inter-
national Corp., Hauppauge, NY ................................................................... 29
Mr. Michael Ramos, President, Raymond Global, Conyers, GA ................... 33
Ms. Sue Tellier, President and Owner, JetCo Federal, Grand Rapids,
MI ................................................................................................................... 41
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC) ................................................... 46
Aleto, Inc. .......................................................................................................... 48
Karrington Clinical Laboratory ....................................................................... 49
CMGT ................................................................................................................ 51
Consulting Corporation .................................................................................... 53
DEFUTEK ......................................................................................................... 54
Engineering/Remediation Resources Group, Inc. (ERRG) ............................. 56
Government Acquistions, Inc. (GAI) ............................................................... 57
Metis Technology Solutions, Inc. ..................................................................... 60
Kilda Group, LLC ............................................................................................. 62
CarINTech, LLC ............................................................................................... 65
AdNet ................................................................................................................. 66
First Principles & Concepts (FP&C) ............................................................... 67
Millennium Health & Fitness .......................................................................... 69
Bridges System Integration ............................................................................. 71
Patricio Systems, LLC ...................................................................................... 74
Sygnetics Inc. .................................................................................................... 76
Coalition Letter ................................................................................................. 78
Mid-Tier Advocacy (MTA) ................................................................................ 86
The American Small Business Chamber of Commerce (ASBCC) ................. 88
National Veteran Small Business Coalition (NVSBC) .................................. 89
U.S. Women’s Chamber of Commerce (USWCC) ........................................... 90
National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) ............................................ 91
Professional Services Council (PSC) ............................................................... 94
Workplace Solutions Association (WSA) ......................................................... 98
Women Construction Owners & Executives, USA (WCOE) .......................... 102
Greater Los Angeles African American Chamber of Commerce
(GLAAACC) ................................................................................................... 105
UpState New York Black Chamber of Commerce ......................................... 108
Center for Entrepreneurial Opportunity ........................................................ 112
Purple Jay, LLC ............................................................................................... 114
Coleman-Anderson, LLC .................................................................................. 116
(III)
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IV
Page
Additional Material for the Record—Continued
The Regional Affiliate Councils of NMSDC .................................................... 118
San Francisco African American Chamber of Commerce (SFAACC) ........... 122
Small Business Majority Letter ...................................................................... 126
Minority Business RoundTable (MBRT) ......................................................... 131
Native American Contractors Association (NACA) ........................................ 132
National Ramp Letter ...................................................................................... 148
EA Engineering, Science, and Technology Inc., PBC Letter ......................... 150
Southeast Cherokee Construction, Inc. .......................................................... 152
SJS Executives, LLC ........................................................................................ 155
B&T Construction Logistics, Inc. .................................................................... 157
IMPRES Technology Solutions, Inc. ............................................................... 159
X&T Enterprise Company ............................................................................... 161
Information Systems Solutions (ISS) .............................................................. 163
Venatore, LLC ................................................................................................... 164
Airport Minority Advisory Council (AMAC) ................................................... 166
AvantGarde, LLC ............................................................................................. 170
GovEvolve Letter .............................................................................................. 172
HUBZone Contractors National Council ........................................................ 177
ITVAR Modernization Coalition ...................................................................... 182
The Montgomery County Chamber of Commerce (MCCC) ........................... 185
Planate Management Group (PMG) ............................................................... 189
The Women’s Procurement Circle (WPC) ....................................................... 194
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LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD: FOSTERING
OPPORTUNITIES FOR SMALL BUSINESS
CONTRACTORS
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 2025
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING
AND INFRASTRUCTURE,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:33 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Nicholas LaLota [chair-
man of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives LaLota, Meuser, King-Hinds, Williams,
Cisneros, Scholten, Morrison, Latimer, and Tran.
Chairman LALOTA. Good morning, everyone. I now call the
Committee on Small Business to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of
the committee at any time.
I now recognize myself for an opening statement.
Small businesses are the economic engine of America. They make
up 99 percent in this country and provide over half of all jobs. Yet,
when it comes to contracting with the federal government, small
businesses are too often shut out. The facts speak for themselves.
Less than 30 percent of federal contractors are small businesses,
and while the total dollar value of federal contracts going to small
business firms has gone up, the number of small businesses win-
ning those contracts has gone down, meaning fewer local employ-
ers, fewer innovative solutions, and less competition for taxpayer
dollars.
The reasons are not hard for us to see. The federal procurement
system is riddled with barriers, including onerous compliance costs,
agency rules that favor the biggest firms, and solicitations written
in dense, legal, and technical jargon that all discourage small busi-
nesses from even applying. Compliance alone is crushing.
Over the past 4 years, Washington piled on nearly $2 trillion in
new regulatory costs and 359 million new hours in paperwork. For
small businesses, that translates to about $15,000 per employee
per year, over 20 percent more than what the larger firms pay. For
small businesses working with the government, the burden has
doubled. Not only do they have to comply with 100,000 pages of
federal regulations, they also have to navigate more than 2,000
pages of the federal acquisition regulations and the defense supple-
ment.
(1)
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These rules and requirements add up, and some of the small
firms decide it is simply not worth their time or money to bid on
federal contracts. This means America continues to lose out on the
innovative, cost-effective solutions small businesses are known for,
and taxpayers pay the price. On top of that, practices like contract
bundling, that combine multiple smaller contracts into one larger
solicitation, effectively sidelines small businesses that could have
delivered those services directly. Instead of competing as prime
contractors, they are pushed into subcontractor roles. That is not
leveling the playing field.
One of the most common complaints I hear from small business
owners is about the language itself. federal contracts are written
in a way that is nearly impossible to understand without a lawyer
or consultant. In fact, a Naval Postgraduate School study reviewed
more than 1 million Department of Defense solicitations and found
that fewer than 3 percent were written in plain English. Most re-
quired at least a college education to understand. Even seasoned
small business contractors told researchers they couldn’t tell what
the government was really asking for. I think that is totally unac-
ceptable.
If a business owner can’t even figure out what product or service
the government wants to buy, how can they fairly compete to pro-
vide it? That is why I introduced the bipartisan Plain Language
Contracting Act. This bill requires federal agencies to write solicita-
tions clearly and concisely. The best part is it doesn’t cost tax-
payers a single dime but lowers the barriers to entry and increases
competition.
When contracts are written in plain language, small businesses
can make faster and more informed decisions. They don’t need to
hire expensive lawyers just to submit a bid, and more competition
means better value for the government and for the taxpayer. The
House has already passed this bill with strong bipartisan support,
and now I call my colleagues in the Senate to take up this common-
sense legislation.
Together with the Trump administration’s deregulatory agenda
of cutting red tape, reducing paperwork, and simplifying the fed-
eral acquisition regulations, this legislation will make federal con-
tracting accessible again to America’s small businesses.
The bottom line is simple: government contracts should be writ-
ten so that everyone can understand them. If we remove unneces-
sary barriers and insist on fairness and transparency, we can un-
leash the full potential of America’s small businesses, strengthen
our industrial base, and deliver better results for taxpayers.
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today about their
experiences and their ideas on how we can keep leveling the play-
ing field for small business contractors.
I now recognize my good friend, Ranking Member Cisneros, for
his opening remarks.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I want to thank our witnesses for being here with us today.
The federal government obligated $755 billion in contracts in fis-
cal year 2024, $183 billion of which was awarded to small business
government contractors. These dollars highlight the critical role
small businesses play in supporting federal agency missions, but
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they do not paint a complete picture or reflect the health of the in-
dustrial base.
Over the past decade, as the dollars have gone up, the number
of small vendors in the government’s ecosystem has been cut in
half. The government has a recruiting and retention problem when
it comes to small business. We must address both issues. Too few
are signing up and too many getting out. Today’s hearing is espe-
cially timely as the government is rewriting its procurement rules.
We can almost all agree that the government acquisition process
has become too cumbersome, too burdensome, and needs to be sim-
plified.
During my time at DOD, I saw a system that does not produce
the best outcomes with many projects not being delivered on time
or on budget. Well-thought-out reforms that will make the process
quicker, smarter, and deliver the best results would be welcomed.
Unfortunately, I do not believe we are seeing that now, and we
have reasons to be concerned. Previous efforts have shown what
happens when reforms are imposed without small business involve-
ment. For example, category management practices have saved tax-
payer dollars, a goal we all share. Yet, many believe they directly
contributed to the shrinking of the industrial base.
The administration recently mandated required use of certain
contracting vehicles, but requiring the use of certain contracting
vehicles may create barriers to entry and barriers to competition
for small businesses. We need the administration to provide clarity
on how this will be implemented and how it will impact small fed-
eral contractors. I am worried that the lack of transparency from
this administration and the lack of involvement from the SBA
means we may end up in a situation a decade from now needing
to hold an urgent hearing on how to reverse the decline of the in-
dustrial base.
This committee cannot allow small businesses to become an
afterthought. We need to ensure that they are heard and their con-
cerns are addressed. Small businesses are the ones driving innova-
tion and bringing in talent and solutions that deliver real value to
the government customer. Their success is a win-win for them and
for the government.
In the past 7 months, SBA has testified once before our com-
mittee. I expressed my frustration at the time that we do not have
the opportunity to hear from the decisionmakers and discuss these
issues directly. I hope we will again soon. When I asked the Ad-
ministrator about the FAR changes, and specifically the Rule of
Two in the hearing, it was unclear if the SBA had been involved.
This is a troubling pattern. Rather than advocate for small busi-
ness government contractors, the SBA has been AWOL. The SBA
did not take any action as service-disabled veterans saw their VA
contracts canceled, and many small businesses took hits from
DOGE. There was no action from the SBA to support women-
owned small businesses as they got kicked off contracts due to the
administration’s misguided DEI claims.
The SBA did, however, lower the goals for contracts awarded to
some small businesses, like those on our panel, and has targeted
the 8(a) program in an attempt to decrease use of these critical
business development tools. The SBA is also gutting the office
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whose job it is to maximize small business prime and sub contracts
across the government.
I will close by adding that I hope today we can counter some of
the attacks we hear on small business programs. They are not
handouts—that small firms could not otherwise compete if we did
not have these in place. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Small businesses don’t need handouts, nor do they want them.
They want a level playing field with a fair shot to compete.
I look forward to hearing from each of our witnesses about how
we can help them do that. Thank you very much. I yield back.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize the full committee Chairman Roger Williams for
his opening remarks.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And I can barely see all of you, my chair is sitting so low. I am
really not 5-foot 6, I promise. Anyway, thank you, Mr. Chairman,
and, everybody, for being here today, for holding this hearing on
the issues small businesses face when competing for valuable fed-
eral contracts. I look forward to hearing about our witnesses’ expe-
rience navigating a cumbersome federal procurement process.
It can be difficult for small businesses to compete when agencies
make it unnecessarily difficult to even understand what a product
and service is being asked for. This discussion comes at a critical
time in this country as our nation continues to prioritize economic
growth under President Trump, and we must ensure that small
businesses have a fair and meaningful opportunity to compete for
and win federal contracts.
One of the simplest ways to empower small business in the gov-
ernment contracting is to ensure contract solicitations are written
in plain language. When the government clearly and concisely com-
municates its needs, small businesses can prepare proposals that
meet the agency’s demands. This not only improves competition by
removing the unnecessary barrier but also reduces the cost of hir-
ing compliance attorneys.
And, moreover, we must streamline the procurement process to
produce administrative overhead. Small businesses often find
themselves overwhelmed by redundant forms, under submission
procedures, and rapidly shifting deadlines. By simplifying and
standardizing these procedures, we will ultimately deliver greater
value to taxpayers and more innovative solutions for government
agencies. Small businesses shouldn’t be at the disadvantage just
because they don’t have the same resources that large firms have
to hire massive teams of lawyers. In a truly competitive market,
very qualified businesses, every qualified business, big or small,
should have a fair and transparent shot at competing for success.
I look forward to working with my colleagues and hearing from
today’s witnesses on how plain language and streamlining the pro-
curement process can ensure the best products and services are se-
lected.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To summarize,
the Chairman endorses the Plain Language Act, is what I think I
heard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. WILLIAMS. [Inaudible.]
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Chairman LALOTA. Yes, sir, I will. And this big seat is pretty
nice over here, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.
I will now introduce our witnesses. Our first witness here today
is my constituent, Mr. Rao Anumolu. Mr. Anumolu is the president
and chief executive officer of ASR International Corporation on
Long Island in New York. Mr. Anumolu founded ASR International
in 1986 and has over 40 years of experience in aviation manufac-
turing, engineering, and program management for major aircraft
programs like the A-10, F-14, and the F-18.
Mr. Anumolu was awarded the 2010 Ellis Island Medal of Honor,
which recognizes recipients for outstanding contributions to their
communities, the nation, and the world. Mr. Anumolu earned a
master’s in industrial engineering and a master’s in business ad-
ministration from Illinois Institute of Technology. He is also a
graduate of the Owner/President Management Program at Harvard
Business School.
Thank you for joining us today, sir.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Thank you.
Chairman LALOTA. Our next witness here today is Mr. Michael
Ramos. Mr. Ramos is the president of Raymond Global in Conyers,
Georgia. Prior to becoming president at Raymond, he was the exec-
utive vice president and federal lead. In these roles he led Ray-
mond’s engagement and presence in the federal market.
Additionally, Mr. Ramos serves as a Board Member for Raymond
Global and oversees their continuous improvement initiatives. Mr.
Ramos formerly served as a director of analysis for DBNA and as
a senior associate of Booz Allen Hamilton. Mr. Ramos received a
bachelor of science in chemical engineering from the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology and a master of science in chemistry from
Tufts University.
We appreciate you being here today.
Mr. RAMOS. Thank you.
Chairman LALOTA. I now recognize my friend, Ms. Scholten, to
briefly introduce her constituent, who is the last witness appearing
here today.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. I am so pleased
that we were able to get this really important hearing rescheduled.
And I am so proud to introduce Sue Tellier, owner of JetCo Fed-
eral and a constituent of mine in Michigan’s Third Congressional
District. JetCo is a packaging storage and distribution company
headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It began in 2007 and
won its first federal contract in 2009. It is an SBA WBENC-cer-
tified woman-owned small business. Woo. Prior to founding JetCo,
Sue ran supplier diversity and business outreach for the Michigan
Department of Management and Budget. In this role, she trained
more than 4,300 small and underrepresented companies teaching
them how to bid on and win State government contracts.
Sue volunteers time to support the defense industrial base and
is an advocate for small and woman-owned small businesses. She
serves as the first Vice Chair of the Board for Women Impacting
Public Policy, WIPP. She is also the immediate past Chair of the
Women in Defense National Council and the immediate past presi-
dent of the Michigan Chapter of Women in Defense. She is a long-
time Member of the National Defense Industrial Association and
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participates in their logistics, small business, and manufacturing
divisions.
Sue is heavily involved in the small business community in
Michigan, and we are all the better for it. She was recently ap-
pointed by Governor Whitmer to begin her third term on the Michi-
gan Strategic Fund Board, which has broad authority to promote
economic development and create jobs. Sue has also served as
Board Chair for the Small Business Association of Michigan, the
largest statewide small business advocacy organization in the coun-
try. She is a graduate of Michigan State University and Wayne
State University.
Welcome, Sue.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you.
Before recognizing the witnesses, I would like to remind them
that their oral testimony is limited to 5 minutes. If you see the red
light turn on, that means your 5 minutes is up. We won’t nec-
essarily play the music like they do in the Emmys and the
Grammys, but that means wrap it up and we will get into more
detail afterwards.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Nobody wants Nick to sing.
Chairman LALOTA. Definitely don’t want that. Not good for
America.
I now recognize Mr. Anumolu for his 5-minute opening remarks.
The floor is yours, sir.
STATEMENTS OF RAO S. ANUMOLU, PRESIDENT &CEO, ASR
INTERNATIONAL CORP; MICHAEL RAMOS, PRESIDENT, RAY-
MOND GLOBAL; AND SUE TELLIER, PRESIDENT AND OWNER,
JETCO FEDERAL.
STATEMENT OF RAO S. ANUMOLU
Mr. ANUMOLU. Am I at the right place here, too?
Good morning to you, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for this
illustrious committee for giving me this opportunity.
After 38 years of grueling work in the small business arena, our
Chairman, Congressman LaLota, gave me the opportunity to speak
in front of you our experiences, good and bad. Some are very good;
some are to be improved. I won’t call them as negative, but I al-
most echo what you both Chairmen spoke. They are realities of life
we face. We don’t have 55 lawyers to fight with the government or
others to get up there. We want to do the right work for you is and
want to be a very productive company to serve the nation. We have
been doing like this. We have got the exemplary [inaudible] person
effort all the federal contracts we have run in the last 38 years.
Sir, Congresswoman McCarthy has recognized us in 2003 for the
9/11 area services that this company has supported, honored us in
the same building. Only one small business was recognized by Con-
gress. I am terribly, you know, humbled by that experience. So we
doubled up our work. We invested more ourself, and we work night
and day from Long Island and throughout the nation supporting
the country’s efforts both in Navy—38 years we work for Navy.
We worked for Air Force, Scott Air Force Base during the Iraq
War, and we worked for the Army, Eagle Program, the big pro-
grams. And we have been pioneering many areas. And the cre-
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ativity and the innovative tactics we have engaged or employed
have been copied by the Chinese. I don’t want to tell this loud, but
we got patents. We help process patents. I see also somewhere else
those processed patents. They were first generated in U.S.A.
So I just want you to know the level of effort that was put in and
the kind of contribution we were able to make as a high-technology,
knowledge-based company in this country. Now, to this advantage,
I want to suggest the contracting officers still gravitate towards Big
Business, which Congressman LaLota has already mentioned. They
go and give massive contracts to big businesses, very small con-
tracts to small businesses, with LCTA rating, that is lowest cost
technically acceptable. You must recognize that should be abolished
from our scene.
Lowest cost, yeah, we will be lowest cost, true. But technically
they say it is acceptable. It is in their perception they are not get-
ting the quality of the product. This must be understood by this
committee and the contracting officers. Very important. Similar
things we could have done in a big way as the Big Business has
been awarded, and those contracts go to—gravitate to big busi-
nesses.
A request our Chairman also brought up is you need team of 30
lawyers and 20 CPAs to fight the battle. We don’t have to fight the
battle. We fight intellectually. We still win. Don’t think we don’t
win. We still win some contracts. We win against the Big Business.
We won against Rockwell International at Hill Air Force Base on
the Minuteman missile. First contract. We won against certain big
companies—I don’t want to mention it—on our own without any
[inaudible] and we got exceptional rating on those things.
Sixty percent of our contracts are exceptional ratings. To that we
propel forward. On the contractual side, there are many improve-
ments they can do from contracting side. One of the preliminary
things I would like to suggest is the SCA justification. They just
randomly throw on the contractors, you know, ‘‘Hey, this is a serv-
ice contract act. Do it your way.’’
Many people very unaware of, you know, exemptions of the SCA
contract. I think government should fix the norms, give the correct
SCA accord, and then we all will be on the level playing field. [In-
audible] the way that contracting officer wants. When will we learn
the contracting officer will do the right thing? Most of them do—
please don’t mistake me—but many have to be trained. That is my
request on the contracting side.
The other thing I would like to bring up is banking side. We all
need funding, no question. As you are doing more work and more
work, the funding needs are there. However, they only tie you in
as long as you can provide your house as the collateral or your
building as the collateral or the other things. I want them also to
think with us, join the people that are serving the nation, under-
stand the business, develop themselves, train themselves into it.
Yeah.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you for your testimony, sir. We are
going to get into a lot of these back and forth. This committee is
going to be——
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yes.
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Chairman LALOTA.—very interested to hear some of those de-
tails.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Just, I will be only one second, sir. They should
be trained with the small business people. We are willing to train
at no cost to the bankers. They are called relationship managers.
And they are never trained. They are just released on us like birds,
and they come and land on us. I request you to do that.
Finally, there are other attributes that are involved. We will dis-
cuss when you are asking us the questions.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Thank you. Thank you.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentleman’s time has expired.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Thank you.
Chairman LALOTA. I now recognize Mr. Ramos for his 5-minute
opening remarks.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Thank you, sir.
STATEMENT OF MICHAEL RAMOS
Mr. RAMOS. Chairman LaLota, Ranking Member Cisneros,
Members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to
testify today. My name is Michael Ramos, and I am the president
of Raymond Global. What began in 1992 as a small roof consulting
practice in Greater Atlanta started by my father has steadily
grown into a family owned, full-service architecture and engineer-
ing firm. Beyond my role at Raymond, I also serve as the Chair of
the GovCon Small Business Coalition, a group of small and
midsized contractors that advocate for policies that support busi-
ness growth and strengthen the defense industrial base.
For its first decade, our company focused largely on K-12 schools
and municipal projects. In 2005, we expanded beyond a one-person
consultancy and have since averaged nearly 20 percent year-over-
year growth. By the end of this year, 2025, we expect to employ
120 professionals with expertise in architecture, interior design,
structural engineering, mechanical, electrical, plumbing services,
civil engineering, and building envelope services.
The SBA’s 8(a) program and our certification as a service-dis-
abled, veteran-owned small business provided crucial development
support and opportunities that helped us build up performance and
diversify into broader markets, including the federal market. Al-
though we have since graduated from these programs, Raymond
continues to work extensively with the DOD and actively partici-
pates in the SBA’s Mentor-Protégé Program.
This hearing comes at an especially pivotal moment. With signifi-
cant changes underway in the federal acquisition landscape, it is
imperative for small businesses to remain at the center of innova-
tion and competitiveness. I would like to highlight several pressing
issues that are impacting firms like mine and the broader small
business community.
First, cybersecurity is critical to national security, but the rollout
of DOD CMMC 2.0 has been costly and uncertain, and those bur-
dens fall hardest on the smallest firms with limited resources. At
my company, compliance with a Level 2 certification will cost ap-
proximately $0.5 million, which is not a one-time cost.
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The acquisition process: Federal solicitations are often too un-
clear, inconsistent, and overly complex. This frequently leads to
protests that small businesses can least afford. Recently, we pur-
sued a federal procurement; this contract was awarded three times,
protested twice, and ultimately canceled for all firms. That means
months and sometimes years of lost opportunity and valuable re-
sources.
The Mentor-Protégé Program: This program has been trans-
formative for my company and our growth. However, the rapid ex-
pansion of joint ventures has tilted the competitive landscape. In-
creasingly, contract scoring criteria favors mentor-protégé joint
ventures, leaving independent small businesses with fewer oppor-
tunities to prime.
New SBA rules: Published at the end of last year, a recent SBA
rule requires small businesses sold after January 2026 to recertify
their size status within 30 days. What this means is they are now
ineligible for future task orders under their existing contracts. This
will result in reduced company valuations and shareholder equity,
discourage investments, and will have a chilling effect on the merg-
ers and acquisitions market. Left as—the impact on a small busi-
ness’ ability to sell will be severe.
The contracting cliff: Right now, firms are classified as either
small or large. There is no middle ground. This binary system
forces companies that grow just beyond the small business thresh-
old to compete directly with billion-dollar primes. A structured
transition program for midsized firms is urgently needed.
The FAR rewrite: As GSA and OMB undertake the monumental
and necessary task of rewriting the FAR, it is critical that reforms
do not strip away small business protections, streamlining regula-
tions that should not be synonymous with eliminating safeguards,
which is why the Rule of Two should be codified into law. Pro-
tecting this foundation will preserve small business competitions
and enable small contractors to inter-compete and remain vital
participants in the defense industrial base.
And, finally, inflation and size standards: Rising construction
costs have inflated revenues without reflecting true growth. SBA
size standards based on outdated 2017 data don’t reflect current
market conditions. That misalignment threatens competitiveness
for many small businesses.
These challenges add up. Rise in compliance costs, inefficient ac-
quisition processes, structural imbalances in programs, and poorly
calibrated regulations all weaken competition. And when competi-
tion suffers, so does innovation, and so does our defense industrial
base. Small businesses bring agility, economic strength, and the
ability to respond quickly to evolving needs. But, to keep playing
that role, we need a contracting environment that works for us, not
against us.
Thank you again for the chance to share my perspective, and I
am happy to answer any questions.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Ramos.
I now recognize Ms. Tellier for her 5-minute opening remarks.
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STATEMENT OF SUE TELLIER
Ms. TELLIER. Good morning Chairman LaLota, Ranking Mem-
ber Cisneros, and Members of the subcommittee. As mentioned by
my fantastic Congresswoman, my name is Sue Schweim Tellier. I
am the president of JetCo Federal, an SBA-certified women-owned
small business. I also serve as Vice Chair of the Board for Women
Impacting Public Policy, a national nonpartisan organization advo-
cating on behalf of women-owned small businesses. Thank you for
the invitation today. It is a tremendous honor.
JetCo Federal is a prime contractor. We are freakishly obsessed
with efficient warehouses. Our government and industry partners
rely on my team to design, produce, and deliver complex packaging
solutions, perform storage and distribution services, and transport
into secure facilities. JetCo Federal won our first DOD contract in
2009, and we have continuously increased our role in supporting
the missions of the Defense Logistics Agency, the Army, and the
Navy.
Eighty percent of our work right now supports the defense indus-
trial base in some capacity, usually very much behind the scenes.
We joke that we are the least interesting, maybe boring part of the
manufacturing cycle, yet we play a critical role in protecting DOD
parts for storage and distribution. My employees are incredibly
proud to support the warfighter, and I am clearly comfortable put-
ting my Midwestern humility aside to say that we have really
earned a strong reputation as a reliable partner for our DOD agen-
cies.
The committee’s focus today is timely and important. The num-
ber of small business federal contractors is shrinking. Since 2010,
the number of small businesses winning federal contracts has de-
creased by 50 percent even as contract spending has increased.
This results in a more stratified federal contractor pool.
Our conversation today, as all of you have mentioned in your
opening remarks, really should focus on strong small business
strength and the importance of opportunities for us. We are job
providers in all of your districts, significant job providers. It is
equally important, though, that we talk about good government.
And expansive market research, the Rule of Two, and small and so-
cioeconomic set-aside programs are not acts of charity. Instead,
they ensure that government benefits from the innovation, competi-
tion, flexibility, and values small businesses bring.
Shrinking the pool of qualified contractors will leave agencies in-
creasingly reliant on a narrower group of large incumbents, directly
reducing the government’s leverage. It is not good business or good
government to have a stratified contractor pool. There is no benefit
to pushing small companies out of federal contracting.
As a small business leader, I factor risk into my business deci-
sions. This includes how I use my time, how I manage unpredict-
ability in my customer base, and how I price my solutions. I must
have some degree of confidence that I have a chance at winning an
opportunity to justify pursuing it. Otherwise, I am wasting precious
time and resources from my small but mighty team.
Any threat or even a potential threat to the Rule of Two in-
creases risk for small businesses and federal contracting. The Rule
of Two has historically been a bedrock protection for us. Its erosion
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results in a less welcoming environment, reducing opportunities for
small, innovative firms, and instead accelerating consolidation.
The FAR rewrite presents a pivotal opportunity to address these
challenges. Retaining and codifying the Rule of Two—making it a
true ‘‘shall’’ requirement applied consistently across vehicles—is es-
sential to keeping small firms engaged in the federal marketplace.
The transformation of FAR Part 10 and the new direction for
market research is also concerning. The drastic streamline pro-
posed effectively trims market research down to three very limited
situations. More prescriptive triggers, such as those related to bun-
dling consolidation and small business outreach, have been re-
moved. References to small business consultation and set-aside con-
siderations have been stripped.
For experienced contractors like JetCo, this increases risk. There
is no longer a mandated pause to engage small business advocates,
notify incumbents, or explore set-aside potential. Instead, agencies
may proceed quickly, potentially overlooking small business oppor-
tunities. Under pressure to move fast, agencies may default to ex-
pedience.
If there is one thing I hope you take away from my words today,
it is that small businesses are not just beneficiaries of federal con-
tracts, they are essential partners to agencies. We bring innova-
tion, agility, and cost savings while providing the government and
taxpayers with options to meet mission needs quickly and effec-
tively. The innovation we deliver strengthens America’s competitive
edge in the global marketplace.
Protecting and expanding our role in federal procurement is both
sound policy and strategic imperative, and if we continue to face
unpredictability and competition challenges, you should not be sur-
prised when fewer of us remain engaged in federal contracting.
Again, I appreciate the opportunity to testify today, and I look
forward to answering any questions. Thank you.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you.
Thank you to each of you for your awesome 5-minute opening
statements.
Now here comes the fun part. We are going to move to the Mem-
ber questions under the 5-minute rule, and I recognize myself for
5 minutes.
Mr. Anumolu, it is great to see you here in D.C. The more Long
Islanders in D.C. the better, I say. I think the last time we saw
each other was at your workplace when you allowed me to visit
about a year ago.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yes.
Chairman LALOTA. Your testimony, sir, reads like the American
Dream and what you have done in this great country.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yes.
Chairman LALOTA. You came here, you studied at top univer-
sities, went on to build a company that has delivered critical serv-
ices to our military, enhanced our national security, kept our troops
safe, all right from Long Island. I was hoping that you can share
with the committee what you think, sir, has made that dream pos-
sible.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Two inspiring things. I found when I came here
first a good study, intellectual penetration into the American arena
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will allow you to grow properly, bring our families together nicely,
and also I have an interest to settle in our community. I achieved
all those dreams on my own in a modest way, not in a big way but
modest way. I brought my family well. My children went to top
schools, and I am able to settle in the community by doing real,
hard, intellectual work. And that is what elevated us.
To add to that, Congress also somewhat recognized me right
when we did the best things for the Hill Air Force Base and the
Iraq War. And, since then, we propelled farther. That [inaudible]
is serving in Navy, and also winning their contracts against Big
Business with all the odds is what we are fighting. If you can level
the playing field slightly, I can tell you, the intellectual stamina we
are offering will be exponentially greater.
The AI contribution we are doing as a company will be enormous.
The cost reduction to the U.S. Government will be tremendous. We
want to achieve those things. We want to feel satisfied when we
go home in the night that I achieved something for my nation, for
my people, for my house.
Chairman LALOTA. We love it. Here in the committee, we want
to harness dedication, innovation, perseverance. That is what we
believe to be the American Dream, and I think that is a Democrat
and Republican principle here. We want to help unleash that ev-
erywhere in every corner of America.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yes. Yes.
Chairman LALOTA. We are here today—and you alluded to this
in your opening testimony, you are going to tell us some of the
tough things you have been through and how sometimes govern-
ment has made things a little more difficult for you. Can you tell
us, sir, a little bit about the application process for some of these
contracts and some of the roadblocks you have suffered through
throughout your many decades experience——trying to earn those
contracts, sir.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yes.
Mr. ANUMOLU. In 38 years, when we see a contract coming
with 2,000 pages, even before we read, we—this is the earmark for
somebody. That is a bad word we use in our lingo in the company.
Hey, that is set for somebody else. Somebody is there, you know.
So we don’t even try to beat it. That should not be our feeling when
we are willing to spend our valuable time night and day.
And there are many contracts that come. All the service—intel-
lectual contracts—I request the contracting officers to try and level
field with the simple language as [inaudible] coming from both the
Chairmen. If you do it, 50 percent of the more [inaudible] will be
there, more competition, and we can beat Big Business.
Chairman LALOTA. To my left here is the federal acquisition
regulation, 2,000 pages here.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yes, sir.
Chairman LALOTA. Sorry, we hurt some trees to do this, but I
think the point is well worth it to demonstrate to the audience
here, folks watching from home, that these regulations, in our
view, are onerous, that when—a hardworking, dedicated, principal
business like you has to apply for a contract—you have to consult
these pages.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yes, sir.
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Chairman LALOTA. My question—and I only have about 30 sec-
onds remaining.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yes, sir.
Chairman LALOTA. My final question is, what would the Plain
Language in Contracting Act do for you, an effort to simplify the
language in these contract applications? What would a simpler ap-
plication process mean for your company, sir?
Mr. ANUMOLU. All that they have to do is define what type of
people they want us to use, SCA, very important. Then tell us,
‘‘Hey, this is what we are expecting as an ultimate objective from
your productivity or from our schedules,’’ you know, what we do to
the government, and that is all we need.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you.
My time has expired. I hope that we can get a second round and
maybe some more questions in. I want to talk to some of you folks
in a second round. But I am going to yield and recognize Mr.
Cisneros for 5 minutes.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you again, all, for being here today.
And I am going to start with Ms. Tellier. As I said in my opening
remarks, we should welcome reforms that simplify the govern-
ment’s procurement process, but there are concerns that this ad-
ministration is making changes that will drive small businesses out
of the industrial base. This is highlighted by the potential elimi-
nation of the Rule of Two, that both you mentioned, as well as Mr.
Ramos mentioned.
What happens to small businesses and the industrial base if the
Rule of Two goes away?
Ms. TELLIER. So we have to have some degree of confidence as
small business owners or leaders or business developers that we
have a shot at winning. The Rule of Two gives us confidence in
that. Changes to the Rule of Two that would only apply to certain
sizes of solicitations doesn’t help with that. My contract portfolio is
not conducive to me only going after $249,000 opportunities be-
cause they are under the SAT. I need to have confidence that I can
compete well on solicitations well over that.
Market research really allows contracting professionals to under-
stand whether two or more small companies can compete effec-
tively. It decimates us. There are small businesses that will leave
federal contracting if they don’t have that confidence.
Mr. CISNEROS. Mr. Ramos, I would love to hear your comments
on that.
Mr. RAMOS. I do think that, if we remove the Rule of Two, that
will be damaging to the defense industrial base. I think that is
pretty critical to understand. If you remove that rule and you do
not codify it, you have this scenario where not only will small busi-
nesses leave, but you will just create massive entrenchment of the
existing large or small businesses. Also, to a certain degree, it is
a land grab by the larger companies that are in the market. And
it is an opportunity right now to codify it and make sure that small
businesses are protected for larger contracts and when they are
qualified. A lot of Sources Sought are to make sure that is hap-
pening, and there are opportunities for Rule of Two to be applied
today.
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Mr. CISNEROS. Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to
insert for the record these letters and statements of support for the
Rule of Two.
Chairman LALOTA. Without objection.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you very much.
Ms. Tellier, some claim that small business-only competitions or
SBA programs like 8(a) or the Women-Owned Small Business Pro-
gram are not based on merit and award contracts to businesses
that otherwise could not compete on price or quality. Can you lay
out why these comments are misguided, and tell us, you know—
or why they are a misguided view of federal contracting and how
these programs actually level the playing field.
Ms. TELLIER. Yes, Congressman. I think I can even do that
without swearing, although it takes a little bit of restraint on my
part, candidly. I have never won a contract because I am a WOSB.
I have won the opportunity to compete on a contract because I am
a WOSB, but every contract I have won it is because I have strong
CPARS; I can do the work well; and I have proven that with my
write-up in my pricing.
My small business owner peers are the same way. And, candidly,
Mike has made some comments so far about how this affects the
defense industrial base. When we look at whether or not govern-
ment benefits from small businesses fleeing or from the socio-
economic set-asides not being deployed, if we don’t bid, the agility
leaves, the innovation leaves.
I have a contract with NSWC Corona, and the crate that I am
producing for munitions has a one-eighth-inch tolerance. I guar-
antee you, none of my large competitors would bother with that,
but I care deeply about it. You lose the passion in that, too.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you.
And, Mr. Ramos, in your testimony you mentioned that Raymond
is an 8(a) program graduate?
Mr. RAMOS. Yes, sir.
Mr. CISNEROS. What are some of the positive outcomes for your
firm resulting from your participation in the 8(a) program?
Mr. RAMOS. We entered the federal marketplace, and specifi-
cally Department of Defense, because we were an 8(a) firm. We
were able to get certified. That is how we entered into federal con-
tracting. We saw an opportunity where we knew we could perform
the work, but we needed a way, as Sue Tellier was saying, to have
an avenue where we could be competitive with entrenched players.
The way procurements are done today, it is all about past perform-
ance. It is not what I can do, it is what I have done for that specific
agency. 8(a) has been incredibly helpful, as well as service-disabled
veteran-owned small business, in order to allow us that oppor-
tunity to have a shot at competing. Highly qualified firm, but, you
have got to have someone open the door for you, so to speak.
Mr. CISNEROS. I think we have heard from these witnesses
today the importance of the 8(a) program as well as the Rule of
Two. I just hope the SBA administration is listening today and will
follow up and support these programs into the future. Thank you
very much. I yield back.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
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I now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, my good
friend and small business owner, Mr. Meuser, for 5 minutes.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And it is very nice having you all here. Thanks for your testi-
mony. It is quite important. It is important to us. It is extremely
important to you. So we appreciate your detail and your specifics.
I was in business for well over 20 years and engaged in some fed-
eral contracting. So I know what it is like. That was a few years
back. Sometimes things get a little bit more regulatory over time,
but it is always difficult, right. And we grew as a small business
into a somewhat larger business, but it was difficult, right. It was
a lot of gambits, a lot of traps, a lot of paperwork, a lot of visits
to the different agency that you needed to win the contract from
and all that. But I would like to focus on what was unfair, particu-
larly for small business, because we are all small business advo-
cates. What was unfair—and I will start with you, Mr. Anumolu.
What was unfair, and, specifically, what would you like to see us
correct?
Mr. ANUMOLU. I will give you two, three examples for
verification purposes.
Mr. MEUSER. And, Mr. Ramos, I am going to come to you with
the same question.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yeah. Two, three examples. If there is a job for,
say, eight people, they still give it to the Big Business because the
Big Business has done that before, and they have performed well.
Mr. MEUSER. So it is a little bit lazy. They are not looking to—
when you say you have——
Mr. ANUMOLU. Well, I don’t want to use—that is your termi-
nology——
Mr. MEUSER. Yeah, well, but——
Mr. ANUMOLU.—which I will endorse it. I will accept you. Be-
cause just giving it to a Big Business—I don’t want to name names.
I can give you five names. They just give it to Big Business be-
cause——
Mr. MEUSER. Does the contracting officer visit your sight?
Mr. ANUMOLU. They don’t, sir.
Mr. MEUSER. Okay.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Very rarely. And so are banks, by the way.
Don’t leave them out. They don’t care as long as you are paying
their bills.
Mr. MEUSER. That is very important access to capital, and that
is largely our other committee, and believe me we are, in this Con-
gress, working on that.
Mr. ANUMOLU. They should be—they have to be trained, sir.
They are good people, but they are not trained.
Mr. MEUSER. As a former businessperson, I want to try to make
a difference from this. So anything that you can provide us, we will
get in the hands of those whom need to see it and where the correc-
tions could be made. That is our role, oversight, not, unfortunately,
implementation, although we can help force that.
Mr. Ramos, same question.
Mr. RAMOS. I would say the entrance into the industry is a
huge historical challenge. Getting into federal contracting can be
the biggest win. If you win your first contract, that gives you a shot
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to maybe prolonging it long-term, and that is what I would say his-
torically. But I would say, right now, the biggest issue might be
CMMC. This will be an incredible barrier, an incredibly costly bar-
rier for small businesses to enter even—we are not talking about
five-person companies. We could be talking about a 100-person
company. That is a huge cost to bear just for the opportunity to
compete on a contract.
Mr. MEUSER. Okay. And you did mention in your testimony
how service-disabled veteran-owned small business was crucial if
your company’s early growth. Just expand on that a little bit.
Mr. RAMOS. Yes. So it is basically a socioeconomic category; cer-
tain contracts are set aside for SDVOSB firms—to actually com-
pete. And so if you look at the Department of Veterans Affairs, as
a veteran-owned company, we were allowed access to a number of
different projects that we could bid on individually or umbrella con-
tracts. And, because the competition pool is a little more limited,
there is a better opportunity to actually win some of those con-
tracts—and that is not to say that is an unfair advantage. I do
think it is important to prioritize our veterans, and, most impor-
tantly, all of the firms that are going after those contracts are high-
ly qualified and it is still very competitive.
Mr. MEUSER. Sure. If you are sitting in my seat, what are you
working on later today, tomorrow to improve the situation within
contractors, federal—particularly defense for small business?
Mr. RAMOS. I do think there is an opportunity to simplify pro-
curements. And, potentially on the flip side, on the backside, if we
are going to do a government efficiency model and we are going to
reduce workforce, there is absolutely a need to change the process
so that we are efficient enough to still carry out the mission.
Mr. MEUSER. Okay. Great.
Ms. Tellier, same question.
Ms. TELLIER. I lost track of the question. I am so sorry, sir.
Mr. MEUSER. The question was, you are sitting in our seat, and
you are focused on this, and you want to make some differences,
what are the top one or two or three things you are focused on?
Ms. TELLIER. Codify the Rule of Two. Make it a shell.
Mr. MEUSER. All right. Very good.
I am about to run out of time, so I am afraid if I hand it over
to you, Mr. Anumolu, we may go over time. But I am going to risk
that. Go ahead.
Mr. ANUMOLU. It is an interesting thing you are asking me to
do. A few things.
Mr. MEUSER. We may have to hold off. My apologies, sir.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Yeah.
Mr. MEUSER. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman LALOTA. We will give some deference to the gen-
tleman if in 30 seconds you can answer Mr. Meuser’s question.
What would you do if you were a Member of Congress to help small
businesses, in 30 seconds?
Mr. ANUMOLU. If I am there, you know, I would certainly take
notes of who are the players and where to correct them. I can give
you two, three examples so that that can be made as a universal
thing. Plus, I would add one small thing, sir, a team of bankers,
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contracting officers, and a small business person should be put and
trained for, say, 3 days.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you.
Mr. MEUSER. I am going to join the Chairman on the next visit
to your place out in Long Island.
Mr. ANUMOLU. You must, sir.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield.
Mr. ANUMOLU. I am at Long Island University, just to add. I
didn’t take their permission. I am trusted there. I can talk to the
president and the Chairman. Sir, it is open. I can teach them. I am
willing to teach that.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you. Our time has expired.
Mr. ANUMOLU. After 38 years, you should allow me to do that.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentleman’s time has expired. Thank
you.
I now recognize the gentleman from California, former small
business owner, Mr. Tran, for 5 minutes. But, if he needs 6, we will
give him that instead.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for con-
vening today’s very important hearing.
And, to the witnesses, I appreciate you traveling to be with us
and sharing your testimony.
Ms. Tellier, in April of this year, the Department of Health and
Human Services fired almost their entire Office of Small and Dis-
advantaged Business Utilization, also known as OSDBU, staff,
leaving only the executive director, despite requirements in the
Small Business Act that the office have a minimum of 13 per-
sonnel. We have heard that the State Department has fired almost
all of their staff as well, and there are draft proposals for reduc-
tions at other agencies or changes that would weaken OSDBU’s au-
thorities or independence. Can you discuss the role of OSDBUs and
how your firm has worked with them?
Ms. TELLIER. Absolutely. The acronyms are fun sometimes,
aren’t they?
Mr. TRAN. Leave it to the government to come up with them.
Ms. TELLIER. Well, I haven’t worked with HHS directly because
so much of my work is within the defense industrial base. I can
speak heavily about the level of professionalism and the level of
helpfulness that I have gotten from especially DLA and Army
OSDBU offices. The help that they give in guiding in the pre-solici-
tation or during the solicitation process, like the opportunity proc-
ess, is very helpful. But I think a lot of people forget how much
help they provide post award.
Last week—oh, my gosh. I am blanking on her name, which I am
mortified by—the head of the OSDBU office for DLA distribution
helped me get paid. DLA was behind about 60 days on a contract
that was valued at $187,000. So I had already obviously incurred
all of those costs. They helped pull the trigger to get the con-
tracting personnel to make sure that the items were received. On
a post-award basis, they are helpful; on a pre-award basis, they are
helpful. They make sure they are guiding us. I actually think they
need more money, not less.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you.
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And, if the other two witnesses has any dealings with it, I would
love to hear your testimony.
Okay. Ms. Tellier, in your testimony, you state that you must
have a level of confidence that you can win an award to invest the
time and resources to develop a proposal and bid. If a small busi-
ness did not know their competitors were also small businesses and
understood that they might be competing with a much larger cor-
poration, how does that change the calculus around whether a
small business bids on that contract?
Ms. TELLIER. The bid decision is heavily influenced by whether
or not we perceive that we have a probability for a win, not a guar-
antee of a win. These aren’t guarantees in any capacity. It is just
the level playing field. If I don’t—if I feel like an opportunity is
wired for someone else, including a large business, I am not going
to waste the time bidding. It is somewhere between 8 and 40 hours
of my time, and that doesn’t include the time of my employees to
put together a complex proposal response. And I am good at it. I
am quick at it. So there is companies that are newer to this space
that would have a lot more of a time investment to do it well. It
is not worth the time.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you.
Mr. Ramos, anything to add?
Mr. RAMOS. I wholeheartedly agree with those comments. It is
critical that the government does understand there is a true busi-
ness cost to putting together a procurement response. We do have
to play a little bit of a numbers game, but at the end of the day,
if I am going up against large or unrestricted size companies, it is
a huge deterrent for me to pursue those opportunities.
Mr. TRAN. And, as Members of this committee, we are very con-
cerned about small businesses, entrepreneurs, and the communities
where your firm pays taxes and create jobs, but small business
policies are a win-win for small businesses and the government.
Can you, any one of you, talk about the benefits of your govern-
ment customers when we have a robust small business industrial
base?
Mr. ANUMOLU. Can I?
Mr. TRAN. Yes, please.
Mr. ANUMOLU. So we helped create several hundreds of jobs
throughout the communities. Our business model is create jobs in
the community that has awarded us the contract. For example, if
I got in San Diego, people in San Diego are hired by us, positioned
by them, and we pay them the wages that we derive from that con-
tract. In other words, we are building the local communities. That
has been our business model for 38 years. Very successful.
The same thing we did everywhere in the nation, not in one
place. We are a nationwide company with nationwide contracts try-
ing to help the local community with big wages. Whatever we bid,
if I bid with three-person, two-person margins, the rest of it is
going to my employees. And this is not done by Big Business—
overheads are 80 percent. They pay, I mean, less. I mean, I don’t
want to comment that way, but their overheads are bigger than us.
Mr. TRAN. And I thank you all for your testimony. I think I am
running out of time here, but congratulations on the success of
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your business, and you can count on this committee to help support
you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
Next up in the batting order is the gentleman from Texas, the
small business owner, the full committee Chairman, Chairman Wil-
liams, for 5 minutes.
Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank all of you for your testimony. It is a good hearing, and
we appreciate you being here.
On this committee, we have repeatedly heard that government
contracts and solicitations are often overly complex making them
difficult for many businesses to respond to successfully, and we
have seen the pile there at the Chairman’s desk. As Chairman
LaLota has stated, less than 3 percent of the contracts the Depart-
ment of Defense were written in plain language.
So, Mr. Ramos, to you, what steps has your firm taken to under-
stand and respond to overly complex solicitations, and if contract
solicitations were written in plain language, would this encourage
small businesses like yours to compete more for government con-
tracts?
Mr. RAMOS. Yes, sir. We almost have a full in-house lawyer at
this point. That is required. We engage with our general counsel,
who is a third party today, on a very regular basis on a number
of issues related to federal contracting. That has been critical. That
has also included training for our personnel so that we can become
better experts.
But this is an art at figuring out federal contracts. And I will say
that, if you figure out that art, you have an entrenched competitive
advantage in order to continue going after contracts. So, if we can
simplify the language, then more small businesses will have an op-
portunity to compete.
Ms. WILLIAMS. Lawyers and accountants can get expensive,
can’t they?
Mr. RAMOS. Just a little.
Ms. WILLIAMS. Yeah.
Regulations and red tape in government contracting can be a
major strain on small businesses—that we have heard all day this
morning—forcing them to redirect their limited resources towards
the cost of compliance rather than growing and expanding their
businesses.
So, Mr. Anumolu, how do these burdensome regulations and com-
plicated solicitations impact your business and your bottom line?
Mr. ANUMOLU. Substantially, sir. So we try to avoid them to
the extent we can and improvise ourself to see if we can bid in. We
did some bids like that. We did partial success. However, the strain
we had to go through is horrendous. But we did it, sir. We have
won against big businesses. But that is not the solution. That is
what is survival we are doing, survival techniques, you know,
which I learned at Harvard. But we have to prepare ourselves to
be trained fully, to work with plain language contracting like you
mentioned in your opening speech——
Ms. WILLIAMS. Okay.
Mr. ANUMOLU.—and——
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Ms. WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Mr. ANUMOLU.—Congressman LaLota also mentioned. They
should be simplified. They can be—it is very easy to simplify, sir.
I don’t know why they don’t do it.
Ms. WILLIAMS. Because it is the government. They don’t under-
stand simple, but we do, and I appreciate your testimony.
Mr. ANUMOLU. Thank you, sir.
Ms. WILLIAMS. The Biden-Harris administration shackled busi-
nesses an additional $1.8 trillion in regulations and $350 million
additional paid man hours, we will call them, for compliance. That
is just unbelievable. And, thankfully, the Trump administration
has already been able to eliminate over $75 billion in costly regula-
tions.
So, Mr. Ramos, to you, how do regulatory costs impact your busi-
ness and staffing decisions as you move—as you go to work every-
day?
Mr. RAMOS. Actually, just yesterday, we were having our Q3
management team meeting, and hiring is something we talk about
at all of these, and hiring is based on profitability, strategic
growth, and direction of the company. I will tell you, regulations
like CMMC have absolutely impacted how we are handling our
business and not for the better. This is a tremendous constraint.
It is one example of the regulations that you are citing. And, if we
can work towards actually simplifying some of these regulations,
like the administration is aiming to do, then we are all for it. We
project fewer regulations equals better growth.
Mr. WILLIAMS. It is more fun to be on offense than defense.
Mr. RAMOS. Yes, sir.
Ms. WILLIAMS. When you are on offense, it translates to
productibility and profits and more jobs.
Mr. RAMOS. Yes, sir.
Ms. WILLIAMS. We appreciate your testimony.
Mr. Chairman, and I yield my time back.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize Ms. Scholten, my good friend from Michigan, and
the former Ranking Member of this committee, for 5 minutes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Wonderful. Though I have moved onto a dif-
ferent ranking position, I am still honored to be a part of this fine
committee.
When the government contracts directly with small businesses,
there are some things they can do only when the small business
is a subcontractor. One of the ways Congress has encouraged fair
treatment and proper utilization of small businesses that some con-
tract with larger primes is to include certain criteria in the prime
contractor’s past performance ratings. The most important of these
criteria, I bet everyone would agree, is did the contractor make
timely payments and whether they met their subcontracting goals.
Ms. Tellier, my first question is for you. How important are those
accountability mechanisms for small business subcontractors?
Ms. TELLIER. It is critical. The example that I used with Con-
gressman Tran: We have to get paid. I can’t wait 90 days to receive
almost a quarter-million dollars from the government. I also can’t
do that with the prime contractors. The example that I used, by the
way, is a little atypical. My government agencies usually pay me
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in a more timely manner than the prime contractors do. It would
also be helpful if we had an understanding of how those ratings af-
fected our customers who were prime contractors. So, if I am a sub
under somebody and I have the option of subbing under two dif-
ferent companies, I am probably going to take the one that on a
dashboard would reflect they cared about me enough to pay me.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah.
Ms. TELLIER. Yep.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. Very helpful.
Question two: Currently federal law requires that contracts
under a certain amount be automatically set aside for a small-busi-
ness-only competition, and yet a surprising amount of spending
under that threshold is not awarded to small firms, the reason for
which is still unclear. It is something we are trying to get to the
bottom of. Some have pointed to things like software licenses and
other products or services that can’t be purchased via a small busi-
ness. I have submitted an amendment to the NDAA that can get
to the bottom of this issue and ensure that this spending is making
its way to the small business, as intended by federal law. Very
pleased that it made it into the final round.
Ms. Tellier, again, coming to you, can you talk a little bit about
how small businesses utilize contracts under the SAT, and why it
is important to ensure that those opportunities are going to small
businesses as intended?
Ms. TELLIER. Absolutely.
The simplified acquisition threshold allows me to kind of fill my
pipeline that is outside of my larger contracts. So the BPA or
IDIQs that I have that are larger are wonderful for predictability
and stability.
But the stuff under the simplified acquisition threshold allows
me to grow, too. So, if it is a $240,000 opportunity, I would like
that to go to small businesses.
I have been at this a while, right. So, as a company who is 18
years old now, I can still remember what the early days of trying
to win my first contracts were like, and those were all under the
SAT.
And so, for companies that are just emerging into the federal
marketplace—and we want them to stay, and we want them to
grow, and we want their innovations, and we want their engage-
ment—we have to make sure that they feel welcomed, and those
under SAT contracts really allow them to do that.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you.
This is not about giving a disadvantageous priority to the under-
dog. It is about making sure that our more nimble small businesses
can actually compete in this space, which is what we want. The
competition ensures we are getting the best quality product and
the lowest potential price. It is good for business. It is good for na-
tional security.
I see that you maybe wanted to weigh in or had some additional
thoughts. I would love to hear. I was going to toss it down that
way.
Mr. RAMOS. Well, I appreciate that. I am just very engaged.
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Using the $240K example, I would challenge any large business
in how they are going to manage their overhead so that it is actu-
ally cost-effective and best cost for the government.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. Thank you.
My last question in my last minute, and we will stick with you,
Ms. Tellier. In your testimony, you mentioned that a small fraction
of the dollars counted toward the women-owned small business
goal are through WOSB contracts. Instead, the majority of those
contracts are open competitions with WOSB competing against
other small businesses or sometimes large businesses and winning
that work. I thought that was a really important point that was
worth revisiting.
What can we do to ensure agencies are using these tools as in-
tended and bringing in more women-owned small businesses to
compete for contracts, not necessarily automatically be granted
them?
Ms. TELLIER. That is a great question.
I think there is an educational component both on the side of in-
dustry and the side of government. Contracting professionals have
a huge administrative burden, and each of the socioeconomic pro-
grams are different.
The WOSB program is the only one that is NAICS limited. They
each have their quirks. Making sure that contracting professionals
understand that they can and when they can set contracts aside
keeps us competing. It keeps us in the pool.
And then, you know, making sure that industry is educated well
so that they can beat their large counterparts, which I like to do.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. We appreciate it so much.
And thank you for your comments, too, sir.
I yield back.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentlelady yields.
I now recognize my new friend, Dr. Morrison from Minnesota, for
5 minutes.
Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Chairman LaLota and Ranking
Member Cisneros, for holding this hearing.
And thanks to our witnesses for being here to take the time to
testify. It has been a really interesting and illuminating conversa-
tion. I am grateful for your testimony.
Contracting with federal agencies is an important avenue to help
small businesses grow. Unfortunately, as we have heard, the num-
ber of small businesses participating in government contracting has
decreased over the past decade, and I worry about how this admin-
istration’s random termination of contracts and abrupt firing of fed-
eral employees will impact small businesses’ decision to enter into
government contracts.
These once secure sources of revenue may now seem too risky for
some small businesses. The Trump administration has proposed
cutting the Small Business Administration’s Contracting Office
budget by almost a third. This includes reducing the number of
SBA Procurement Center representatives who are critical to ensur-
ing the contracts are written in ways that enable small businesses
to compete for them.
Without SBA performing this critical role, agencies are likely to
make contracts that are too large for small businesses or have
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more requirements than small businesses can meet, essentially
making them inaccessible to small businesses.
Ms. Tellier, could you describe how SBA employees have assisted
your small business over the years and how cutting members of
SBA’s Contracting Office, such as Procurement Center representa-
tives, could impact small businesses?
Ms. TELLIER. Yes. It is a great question. Thank you for asking
it.
The Procurement Center representatives often are behind-the-
scene, unknown advocates to those of us who are small business
contractors. They are ensuring that subcontracting plans are ad-
hered to, and they are ensuring competition is maximized prac-
ticably within agencies.
The SBA Office of Government Contracting has done a lot with
a little for quite a few years. Any further cuts, it affects certifi-
cation programs. It affects the ability to retain the PCR staff that
directly affects small businesses even if many small businesses
don’t know they are being protected and advocated for by those
PCRs.
Ms. MORRISON. Thank you. I share those concerns.
I am also worried about other ways that federal agencies are
making it harder for small businesses to compete for contracts. For
example, when federal agencies consolidate multiple contracts into
a single, larger contract, that puts the contract out of reach for a
small business.
So this one is again for Ms. Tellier and Mr. Ramos, too. Both of
your testimonies highlight recent changes to how the government
conducts market research before a contract can be consolidated.
Can you elaborate on the impact on small businesses when billions
in contracts are consolidated every year?
Mr. Ramos, we can begin with you.
Mr. RAMOS. That is a fantastic question.
Bundling probably has some place in driving better efficiency in
government contracting, but if you are bundling that volume of
contracts, that puts it completely out of reach for a small business.
I would say the opportunity, if you want to consolidate contracts,
there are a lot of zombie contracts in existence, and the market re-
search should be a little bit more thorough so that those don’t come
into existence. They cost us money in order to actually secure. No
awards actually happen under those contracts.
And so that would be more preferred, in my opinion, if we are
taking a consolidation approach.
Ms. MORRISON. Thank you.
Ms. Tellier?
Ms. TELLIER. I would agree with his comments. Category man-
agement or bundling just generally goes to the perception. If, as a
small business, I don’t think I can compete to win, I am not going
to spend 75 grand trying to get on a Best-in-Class vehicle that I
am not going to get spent on.
I haven’t heard it called a zombie before, but I love that word
now, and I am going to keep using it. So thank you.
Mr. RAMOS. You are welcome.
Ms. MORRISON. It is apt.
Ms. TELLIER. Yes.
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I do think the market research goes a little bit further on that,
too. Being able to have that market research involved, engaging
with small businesses would allow that input to come into it to
avoid the consolidation in the first place.
Ms. MORRISON. Yes.
If a small business’ contract is consolidated, what resources or
assistance are available for that business from the SBA or the con-
tracting agency?
Ms. TELLIER. I mean, I would start with the OSDBU office
within the agency, and then I would rely heavily on the PCR for
that region as well. And, if that didn’t work, I would call Congress-
woman Scholten.
Ms. MORRISON. Good idea.
Thank you so much for your testimony.
And I yield back.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentlelady yields.
After consulting with the Ranking Member, we will now move to
our second round of questions under the 5-minute rule.
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Ramos, I was quite impressed by your resume, including a
couple of degrees you have.
Mr. RAMOS. Thank you.
Chairman LALOTA. Chemical engineering degree from MIT.
Mr. RAMOS. Yes, sir.
Chairman LALOTA. And a master of science in chemistry from
Tufts. Pretty impressive.
Mr. RAMOS. Thank you.
Chairman LALOTA. When one googles that, one reads that earn-
ing a chemical engineering degree at MIT is widely considered as
one of the toughest academic paths in higher education.
Yet, even with that strong academic background, you said in a
previous round of questioning you had to hire a lawyer in order to
go through these massive government applications. You have to
consult with 2,000 pages in the FAR.
Even a guy who graduated from MIT in a degree that I don’t
even understand at all has to do those things. So the point is, how
can a regular American go through these processes if the MIT
chemical engineering grad has to outsource and bring on an attor-
ney to go through that?
So can you share with me some of the frustrations, experiences,
or whatnot you have been through as an MIT grad whose has got
a chemical engineering degree and going through some of these on-
erous government contracts? What burden has it placed upon you
personally?
Mr. RAMOS. Well, the first thing is, if an average person wants
to do that, they can do it, but they quit their day job. This has to
be the only thing that they do. They are not running a company.
They are not performing on contracts. They have to spend all of
their time doing something like this. A lawyer is necessary.
And some of the frustrations: We see a tremendous amount of
variability as well. It is not just that you have a 1,000-page con-
tract or something like that. The next procurement that may come
from the next office over may be completely different for the same
level of services or the same types of services being provided.
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This is a problem because now you may have brought in your
lawyer. You may have brought in some friends or colleagues that
are former contracting officers in order to try and get through it.
You now have the same problem the next day. It continually re-
peats itself.
Chairman LALOTA. And I want to be very transparent in this.
Yes, this Committee wants to make life easier on small businesses.
That is, you know, part of our—it is in our wheelhouse. It is not
just out of charity and benevolence; we are just being good guys,
that we want to make things easier on you. It is out of wanting
to have more applications. When we have more applications, the
government gets a better price, arguably a better product that can
be more on time and a higher quality.
Selfishly, government should want to make it easier on appli-
cants to be a part of the process. We shouldn’t want to drown you
in paperwork. We shouldn’t want you to have to give up your spe-
cialty to now become a government applicant specialist.
So tell me a little more about how you have had to outsource
that and it affects your ability to focus on what is most important
for your business.
Mr. RAMOS. Well, one of the first things you have to remember
is, if we have less that we have to do in a procurement, that means
we can respond to more, which means we can actually take shots
on goal at innovating. We can’t do that today. We have to focus
solely on the evaluation criteria, which is incredibly rigid.
And so, having to outsource this, we hire a general counsel.
There is a tremendous amount of cost that comes with just having
lawyers. We have to actually go to our partners that are typically
bigger businesses or maybe teaming partners on those. Those are
things that we might be able to get just because we are a good
firm, and we have got good connections in order to rely on those
resources.
Or we might have to hire a complete third-party consultant not
only to write that proposal but also have a consultant to help us
actually navigate the federal landscape and actually doing business
development outside of the procurement process so that we can be
positioned just to have a shot at those procurements.
Chairman LALOTA. Ms. Tellier, do you have a similar experi-
ence that—the bipartisan Plain Language in Contracting Act is
meant to address these issues for all small businesses, either
anecdotally or whatnot. Do you have a similar experience as Mr.
Ramos?
Ms. TELLIER. I think we all do, candidly. I think we all have
an understanding that when we are comparing a commercial oppor-
tunity that is 4 pages with a 158-page solicitation, that the risk/
reward ratio comes into play there. If we can simplify, that cer-
tainly helps.
I would offer that it might not be the most important barrier to
entry for small companies, but it is certainly one.
Chairman LALOTA. Thank you.
I am going to yield the rest of my time back and recognize my
friend from California, Mr. Cisneros, for 5 minutes.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you very much.
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Ms. Tellier, I just kind of want to follow up on a previous ques-
tion that you got, right. Previous efforts have sought to consolidate
contracts through initiatives such as category management, con-
solidating efforts that put contracts out of reach for many small
businesses, including some that have previously performed the
work.
Can you elaborate more on the cost and requirements for small
businesses to get on certain contracting vehicles before you can
compete?
Ms. TELLIER. Absolutely.
Any of the multiple award vehicles have a pretty intensive either
application process or proposal process. If you do that in-house,
that can take somewhere between 20 and 100 hours of time. In a
small business, that is, unfortunately, sometimes the owner of the
company.
And, to Mr. Ramos’ point, that is innovation leaving, and there
is a focus on just submitting the process. There is an opportunity
cost to my time.
Once I get on that vehicle—now that I know the word ‘‘zombie
contract,’’ which I am smitten with, clearly—once I get on that ve-
hicle, I might never get spent. There might not be opportunities
that come out through it, but I am still responding to task orders
on that. If I get on that vehicle, I am still responding to task orders
on it.
It is an intense outlay of time and money at the beginning and
then it just continues.
Mr. CISNEROS. Mr. Ramos?
Mr. RAMOS. I would maybe amplify the comment. When we
have our umbrella contracts, we go after task orders. I have had
years where we have hit over a hundred task orders we have had
to respond to on contracts that we already own and that we have
already won, in addition to trying to secure new work on other fed-
eral procurements or even in a non-federal realm.
And so, there is a huge cost outlay in order to do this.
Mr. CISNEROS. All right.
Ms. Tellier, DOGE cuts led to prime contracts, terminating sub-
contracts with smaller firms, including those by women-owned
small businesses, veteran-owned businesses, minority-owned busi-
nesses. What was the impact of these terminations for small busi-
nesses? What have you heard from your other small business own-
ers?
Ms. TELLIER. It has been quite devastating. Thank you so much
for that question. It really hasn’t come up.
Having contracts canceled mid-cycle means that there are people
that lost their jobs. Those contracts had employees associated with
them. The performance of the work statement required bodies. It
required input. Some of those inputs had fixed costs that were al-
ready sunk into them.
So small business contractors, some of them closed. Some of
those contracts were substantial, and they couldn’t survive. But
what it did for the rest of the contracting community is inject un-
predictability, and unpredictability for a small business is just in-
herent risk.
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So I didn’t get DOGE’d. You know the verb DOGE’d? I didn’t get
it. But it is still injected on predictability and to my decisions as
a federal contractor.
Mr. CISNEROS. No, I think that is what we heard from many
small businesses, right, is that they didn’t know what was going
to come next. They didn’t know. And it doesn’t matter whether it
was the small businesses. I would say the school districts, every-
body, the local governments. We just want to know what is going
to happen, right. Just tell us what is going to happen. This unpre-
dictability does not help us at all.
And, if I could just throw one last question in there, and I open
this up to the panel. What advice would you give to a small busi-
ness either just starting out or an existing commercial firm that is
interested in contracting with the federal government for the first
time? What advice would you give them?
Mr. RAMOS. This is a very expensive endeavor. So, make sure
you have your cash flow lined up. The entry-level regulations that
you are going to have to meet in order to enter into the federal
marketplace is almost insurmountable. For small companies, even
established commercial companies, this is a very big challenge.
Mr. CISNEROS. Ms. Tellier?
Mr. ANUMOLU. I would like to give an answer.
Mr. CISNEROS. No, I will get you, sir. I will get you, sir.
Ms. TELLIER. I would weigh in very quickly that there are some
fabulous resources that you fund for small businesses who are en-
tering the APEX Accelerators, and the Small Business Develop-
ment Centers are a great starting point as well, but it is expensive.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you.
And, sir, please.
Mr. ANUMOLU. My only request is if they want to start off, be
prepared to spend 24 by 7 on this project in a committed way. Oth-
erwise, there will be two losers. One is the person who started the
business and also the government.
Mr. CISNEROS. All right.
All right. With that, I yield back my time.
Chairman LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
And we are going to adjourn in a minute, but I want to thank
our witnesses for traveling to Washington, for being a part—Mr.
Latimer, do you——
Mr. LATIMER. No, thank you.
Chairman LALOTA. Okay.
I do want to thank our witnesses for traveling to Washington.
This is insightful. We spent about 1 hour and 20 minutes together
having a good dialogue. We read your bios. We read your testi-
mony, but the dialogue that we will be able to have afterwards is
productive for this Committee. It does a lot of decent, bipartisan
work. We have some differences about some of the things on the
fringes, but, for the most part, we agree on a lot, and your testi-
mony helps illuminate some of the things that we are most focused
on. So I definitely want to thank you for being a part of that.
Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to submit ad-
ditional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the
Chair, which will be forwarded then to the witnesses. And I would
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ask the witnesses, if you get that correspondence, to please reply
promptly.
If there is no further business, without objection, the Committee
stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:51 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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APPENDIX
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Æ
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-119hhrg61897.pdf
- Size
- 72,071,197 bytes
- SHA-256
- 4707357efef52469716745637ed4b17d48ca5b36d0c04adb370b985ff0056173
- Our copy
- CHRG-119hhrg61897.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov