Leveling the Playing Field: Examining the Landscape of Veteran Owned Small Businesses (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, July 23, 2024)
Summary
Transcript of a July 23, 2024 joint hearing of the House Small Business Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure and the Veterans' Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, Small Business Committee Document Number 118-057, on veteran-owned small businesses. Nick LaLota presided from 10:00 a.m. to 12:22 p.m., and Hillary Scholten gave the minority opening statement. Witnesses were William J. Belknap Sr. of AEONRG LLC, Stephen G. Hayduk of Hayduk Engineering, LLC, Stephanie Brown of The Rosie Network and Jon Tellier of JetCo Solutions. Tellier described the financing and bonding barriers that keep veterans from pursuing contracts.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
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“Leveling the Playing Field: Examining the Landscape of Veteran Owned Small Businesses (House Small Business subcommittee hearing, July 23, 2024).”
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LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD: EXAMINING THE
LANDSCAPE OF VETERAN OWNED SMALL
BUSINESSES
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING AND
INFRASTRUCTURE
JOINT WITH THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC
OPPORTUNITY
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
HEARING HELD
JULY 23, 2024
Small Business Committee Document Number 118–057
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
56–208 WASHINGTON : 2024
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TRACEY MANN, Kansas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARC MOLINARO, New York
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
ELI CRANE, Arizona
AARON BEAN, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
NICK LALOTA, New York
CELESTE MALOY, Utah
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
JARED GOLDEN, Maine
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ, Washington
SHRI THANEDAR, Michigan
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
JUDY CHU, California
SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
BEN JOHNSON, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director
(II)
CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Nick LaLota .................................................................................................... 1
Hon. Hillary Scholten .............................................................................................. 3
WITNESSES
Mr. William J. Belknap Sr., President, AEONRG LLC, Downingtown, PA ....... 9
Mr. Stephen G. Hayduk, P.E., Managing Member, Hayduk Engineering, LLC,
Ronkonkoma, NY ................................................................................................. 11
Ms. Stephanie Brown, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, The Rosie Net-
work, Ramona, CA ............................................................................................... 12
Mr. Jon Tellier, President, JetCo Solutions, Grand Rapids, MI .......................... 14
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. William J. Belknap Sr., President, AEONRG LLC, Downingtown,
PA ................................................................................................................... 28
Mr. Stephen G. Hayduk, P.E., Managing Member, Hayduk Engineering,
LLC, Ronkonkoma, NY ................................................................................. 38
Ms. Stephanie Brown, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, The Rosie
Network, Ramona, CA .................................................................................. 41
Mr. Jon Tellier, President, JetCo Solutions, Grand Rapids, MI ................... 44
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
Approval letters from Hon. Williams and Hon. Scalise ................................ 50
America’s Credit Unions .................................................................................. 52
(III)
LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD: EXAMINING
THE LANDSCAPE OF VETERAN OWNED
SMALL BUSINESSES
TUESDAY, JULY 23, 2024
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONTRACTING
AND INFRASTRUCTURE,
JOINT WITH THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY,
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittees met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room
2360, the Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Nick LaLota [chair-
man of the Committee on Small Business, Subcommittee on Con-
tracting and Infrastructure] presiding.
Present from the Committee on Small Business, Subcommittee
on Contracting and Infrastructure: Representatives LaLota, Bean,
Maloy, Scholten, McGarvey, and Chu.
Present from the Committee on Veterans Affairs, Subcommittee
on Economic Opportunity: Representatives Van Orden, Levin, and
McGarvey.
Also Present: Representative Williams.
Mr. LALOTA. Good morning, everyone. I now call the Committee
on Small Business to order. Without objection, the Chair is author-
ized to declare a recess of the committee at any time.
Prior to opening statements, I want to note that pursuant to
committee rule 3E, the Democrat witness for today’s hearing will
be appearing remotely.
I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the letter of ap-
proval of the Majority Leader Scalise. And without objection, so or-
dered.
I now recognize myself for my opening statements.
Welcome to today’s joint subcommittee hearing entitled, ‘‘Lev-
eling the Playing Field: Examining the Landscape of Veteran
Owned Small Businesses.’’
First, I want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us here
today. Your presence here and your time is very much appreciated
and we all look forward to your testimonies.
I would like to specifically give a shout out to Stephen Hayduk,
my constituent from Long Island from Suffolk County, a Vietnam
veteran and my own constituent. Thank you, sir, for being here. We
appreciate your service to our nation.
(1)
2
I would also like to thank the VA Subcommittee on Economic De-
velopment for joining us in this effort today, specifically Sub-
committee Chairman, my friend and fellow Navy veteran, Con-
gressman Van Orden, who will be chairing from time to time. We
are going to swap out as we have other duties that require us to
be elsewhere.
Today our subcommittees will be focusing on how we get our na-
tion’s veterans more involved in the contracting space and more in-
volved in main street in general. We must address the alarming de-
cline in the number of small businesses receiving federal contracts,
having been cut in half over the last 10 years, with the number of
small businesses entering the federal contracting system decreas-
ing by nearly 60 percent in the same period.
We all know the crucial role main street plays in increasing com-
petition, innovation, and stimulating our economy. Yet, they have
been systematically squeezed out of federal contracting for decades.
Unfortunately, this decline in small business contracting comes as
no surprise as the Biden Administration actively steers our econ-
omy and national security in the wrong direction.
Veterans should have abundant opportunities in this space and
our nation’s veterans bring unique skills to the marketplace. We
must ensure they have the resources they need to compete in the
procurement marketplace. They possess innate leadership and en-
trepreneurial skills and qualities that cannot be taught.
Unfortunately, oftentimes a veteran’s attempts to transition back
to civilian life, that journey can be extremely challenging. Entre-
preneurship is a fantastic way for veterans to regain mission focus,
but it is no easy process, especially thanks to today’s current eco-
nomic landscape brought to you by leaders in our administration.
Veteran-owned small business should be able to easily operate in
the contracting marketplace, too. Sadly, the bureaucratic red tape,
and there is a heck of a lot of it, challenge small businesses who
are forced to navigate this extremely harmful and burdensome
process. Needless to say, this complexity of these barriers makes it
even harder for small business to enter the federal marketplace.
For example, involvement in federal contracting requires a sig-
nificant understanding of the long and cumbersome federal acquisi-
tion regulations, defense federal acquisition regulations, and the
applicable regulations in the Federal Register. Together these docu-
ments are over 94,000 pages long and require thousands of staff
hours to read. Veterans and small business owners at large should
not have to do this just to merely compete. It is our job here in this
subcommittee and the joint committee and Congress as a whole to
give veterans a fighting chance after all that they have done for
our great nation.
This subcommittee’s mission is to create a pathway for small
businesses to succeed and that is why today’s hearing is absolutely
paramount. I hope today’s discussion will lead to real-world solu-
tions that will enhance the lives and realities of our veteran-owned
small businesses, and I thank you once again for joining us today.
Your real-world experiences will help us make meaningful improve-
ments to ensure small businesses are fully utilized in the federal
procurement marketplace. We must work together, both parties, to
3
stop the decline of small business contracting and fight to keep
main street open for business.
With that, I yield to my distinguished colleague, the Ranking
Member from Michigan, Ms. Scholten.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I want to say spe-
cial thanks to the majority for allowing my witness, who I will in-
troduce later, to appear remotely. The major flight cancellations
that we have been experiencing across the country have, unfortu-
nately, impacted him and his ability to be here in person today be-
cause he has got incredible perspective to share, and I thank you
for that.
I am glad we can come together to discuss the issues facing our
nation’s veteran-owned small businesses as well as celebrate their
successes. We all know that small businesses are the backbone of
the American economy and veteran-owned small business make up
a critical part of that foundation. The work these entrepreneurs do,
all after serving our nation, is nothing short of remarkable. More-
over, the impact these small businesses have in our communities
highlight the need for our Small Business Administration to sup-
port them. The hearing today affords us the opportunity to examine
how well we in Congress are doing our part to serve those who
have sacrificed so much for this great nation.
In order to determine how we can best serve our veteran-owned
businesses we need to understand where they are in the landscape
of Main Street America. According to the Census Bureau data in
2020, approximately 300,000 employer firms were veteran owned
out of a total of approximately 6 million, accounting for 5 percent
of all employer firms.
Veterans own approximately 1.7 million non-employer firms
making up about 4.8 percent of non-employer firms nationwide.
These numbers show that veteran entrepreneurs play a significant
role on main street and historically they have done so for decades.
Studies also show that older generations of veterans are much
more likely to be entrepreneurs compared to their civilian counter-
parts. However, veterans such as those that served in the first and
second Gulf Wars are pursuing entrepreneurship at a much lower
rate when compared to civilians at a similar age. This is why this
hearing today is so important.
It is critical that we examine the barriers to entrepreneurship
through the lens of these business owners to understand where the
gaps in support exist. The Small Business Administration has a
number of resources for veterans who are looking to start or grow
their small business making significant progress in providing guid-
ance and resources to veteran-owned small businesses.
The 7(a) Program for example provided more than $1 billion in
loans to veterans in fiscal year 2023 alone. Additionally, the Small
Business Administration received $8.5 million in fiscal year 2024
to fund a number of programs supporting veteran entrepreneurs,
such as Boots to Business, the Women Veteran Entrepreneurship
Training Program, and the Service-Disabled Veteran Entrepreneur-
ship Training Program.
These programs provided support to thousands of veterans in fis-
cal year 2023. Notably Boots to Business alone served over 23,000
veterans, military spouses, and servicemembers. Based on the suc-
4
cess of these programs it is no wonder that the current administra-
tion requested $19 million for them in fiscal year 2025.
These programs are just a few examples of this critical work the
SBA is doing to serve our nation’s veterans. However, it is also im-
portant to examine where we can do more. As with many entre-
preneurs, access to capital remains a top issue for veteran-owned
small businesses as well. Studies have shown that over half of vet-
eran-owned small businesses don’t receive the amount of financing
they request, over half. These realities combined with the down-
ward trend of young veterans pursuing entrepreneurship highlight
an area where more support from Congress may be needed.
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today with their
unique perspective on how we can address the challenges faced by
our veteran-owned small businesses. Thank you all.
Mr. LALOTA. I want to thank the Ranking Member for her
statement for a partnership on our subcommittee together. This is
one of the more functional committees in Congress that actually
gets a couple of good things done and I am pleased that we have
a good relationship.
I am going to pass the mic to my good friend who has a depth
of experience. We are blessed to have some good witnesses here
today who are going to help inform the subcommittee, but this Sub-
committee Chairman from the VA committee has a breadth of ex-
perience himself, 25-year Navy man, retired senior chief combat
veteran, who probably has one of the most unique senses of humor
in Congress, too.
So, with that I pass it to my good friend, Congressman Van
Orden.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is really great
to be here. We have got some of our staff over here from our Sub-
committee on Economic Opportunity. From the VA I would like to
thank Mr. Levin, my Ranking Member, for being here. And I do
need to note for the record, though, when anyone comes to our com-
mittee they are given cheese from the State of Wisconsin. That is
correct. You know that, Mike?
Mr. LEVIN. Yes, I do.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Yeah. So, just throwing that out there if any-
body is taking notes.
I want to thank you guys for having us today. It is incredibly im-
portant that we are here because we must work together. And our
committee, we do not run a bipartisan committee, we run a non-
partisan committee. And I think that you guys have embraced that
spirit and I really appreciate that. There is so much tomato thrown
around here in Congress. It is about time we do some damn work
together.
But veterans are the backbone of America’s economy. They have
been for a very long period of time. And unfortunately, the percent-
age of veteran-owned businesses in America has decreased from
about 11 percent of all businesses in 2014 to just under 5.2 percent
in 2021. And this downward trend concerns me as it does all of
you.
We at Congress have got to do a better job to ensure that vet-
eran-owned businesses are able to maintain a competitive advan-
tage in this economy and have access to all the tools they need to
5
take risk, to take the risk to start a business, especially when vet-
eran-owned businesses are contributing almost $1 trillion to the
economy annually.
Veterans should not be left behind by the broader population
when they have done so much to protect us in this room now. The
Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity that I Chair has worked
very hard to ensure veterans have the opportunities they deserve
in education, career development, and housing. And now we need
to focus our efforts on ensuring that veterans can take full advan-
tage of the programs that are available for starting and running a
business.
I have made improvements in the Transition Assistance Program
offered to servicemembers and one of my top priorities of Congress
for transitioning veterans aspiring to own a business. The Boots to
Business Program has proven to be an invaluable pathway.
I am concerned, though, that the future of the Boots to Business
Program is uncertain because it is supposed to expire at the end
of this Congress. And I implore all my colleagues, regardless of the
side of the aisle you are on, to reauthorize this program to ensure
our veterans have the knowledge and the skillset to succeed as en-
trepreneurs upon departure from the service.
As a former small business owner myself, I understand the dif-
ficulties associated with starting and running a small business.
And I want to ensure that the TAP, Transition Assistance Pro-
gram, is empowering veterans with the knowledge and tools they
need to make the decision that is best for them to succeed.
I also want to ensure that when they leave TAP they are aware
of other programs established to ensure their success, such as vet-
erans mentoring and networking programs, SBA assistance pro-
grams, and state programs for veteran-owned small businesses.
Frequently the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs hears about how
the application to apply to be a veteran-owned small business or
service-disabled veteran-owned small business is filled with bu-
reaucratic paperwork and overly complicated and after three or
four times they just stop trying to apply.
During the full committee hearing and the VA last year we also
heard about the lack of opportunities in rural areas for veterans
applying to be a VOSB or an SDVOSB. Wow, check that out. Huge
acronyms.
It is difficult to get questions answered or fill out an application
correctly when the nearest assistance available to you is over 100
miles away. And in today’s day and age these government agencies
must adapt to reach veterans or anyone wherever we can, and we
are going to see an example of that by the Ranking Member’s wit-
ness remoting in here.
Finally, the federal government has worked hard to create spe-
cific programs to help certain individuals achieve the American
dream for various reasons, ensuring a veteran-owned business re-
ceives every advantage the federal government can afford should it
be a priority for programs since just 1 percent of Americans serve
in uniform.
These men and women should receive the same, if not pref-
erential, treatment when it comes to government contracting, tax
breaks, and streamlining the application process. And I look for-
6
ward to finding these solutions with my friends and colleagues,
Ranking Member Levin, as well as my colleagues from the Small
Business Committee.
I am very excited to hear your testimony today and see how we
can help you better.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Van Orden.
I said before that we have some great witnesses and we also
have some great Members here, too. Somebody who I got to know
about 8 months ago when we worked together. He represents the
Southern California, I think a Los Angeles area district. We
worked together about 8 months ago to ensure that his constituent
and a Navy man, Lieutenant Ridge Alkonis, was, after 500-and-
something days in a Japanese prison, was able to get home right-
fully to his family and met Mr. Levin along the way, who was a
champion in that effort. He is the Ranking Member of the House
Committee on Veterans’ Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Oppor-
tunity, Representative Mike Levin. I will recognize him for this
comments.
Mr. LEVIN. Well, thank you so much, Chairman LaLota and
thank you to Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Scholten,
three good friends in Congress, and this is how things are supposed
to work around here. And I am really, really pleased to see us all
getting together.
I had the honor to serve now in the Economic Opportunity Sub-
committee for 5-1/2 years. I can tell you it is the most rewarding
work that I have done in the House of Representatives and it has,
Chairman Van Orden said, it has been nonpartisan work, working
with Gus Bilirakis and Barry Moore and Chairman Van Orden.
We have gotten a ton accomplished and I am really excited to see
this, you know, collaboration with the Small Business Committee.
This is great. We should have done this 5-1/2 years ago, but better
late than never.
Historically, veterans who have been more entrepreneurial than
non-veterans. And my experience representing the Marine Corps
Base Camp Pendleton has been that most of our veterans, they just
want to find new ways to serve, you know, when they are
transitioning from the military into civilian life, and starting a
business is one of the very best ways to do that.
According to the Census Bureau, some of these statistics were
given before, veterans own about 5.9 percent of all business that
employ 3.9 million people and have an annual payroll of about
$177 billion. Pretty amazing.
The last Congress I was honored to lead legislation that was
signed into law to expand veterans’ eligibility for self-employment
in the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program. I am really
excited to work with the Committee on Small Business to support
veterans who want to start small businesses and ensuring they
have the resources available to support their endeavors.
I also look forward to hearing from today’s witnesses on their ex-
perience as business owners and the resource they provide to assist
veterans in starting and growing small businesses.
With that I yield back to my friend, the Chairman.
7
Mr. LALOTA. Thank you, sir. Just for time management’s sake
we are going to take about the next 10 minutes or so to introduce
the witnesses and then we have been called to vote. So, after that,
we are going to take a brief recess so the Members can vote and
come back there. So, for staff and witnesses, just for your time
management, we are going to do about 10 minutes and then take
a break.
So, I want to introduce our witnesses. The first witness here
today is Mr. Bill Belknap. Mr. Belknap is the president of
AEONRG, LLC, located in Downingtown, Pennsylvania. Mr.
Belknap founded the LLC in 2012, a general contractor providing
construction on mechanical, electrical, and plumbing projects and
services largely to governmental clients include the VA medical
centers.
It is also certified as a service-disabled, veteran-owned small
business. Prior to founding the company, Mr. Belknap served for 10
years as a global operations manager with Pfizer. Before joining
Pfizer, he completed a 20-year Army career, thank you for your
service, sir, including 10 years in the Tank Division in the United
States and in Turkey.
Mr. Belknap graduated from the United States Military Academy
at West Point, go Navy v. Army, sir, with a bachelor of science and
later graduated from Wayne State University with an MBA in fi-
nance. Thank you for your service and we look forward to the con-
versation ahead.
Our next witness here with us today is my constituent, Mr. Ste-
phen Hayduk. Mr. Hayduk is the founder and owner of Hayduk
Engineering, LLC, located on Long Island in Ronkonkoma, New
York. Founded by Mr. Hayduk in 1984 as a one-man operation,
Hayduk Engineering has now grown up to over 40 employees.
In 2015, Hayduk Engineering, LLC was certified as a service-dis-
abled, veteran-owned small business driving even more growth for
the company. Mr. Hayduk has served as the commissioner of the
Suffolk County Department of Public Works where he oversaw a
department of over 900 employees and $160 million operating
budget.
A Vietnam veteran, Mr. Hayduk used the G.I. Bill to go to col-
lege, earning his associate degree from the Suffolk County Commu-
nity College before attending the Rochester Institute of Technology
where he earned his bachelor of science and civil engineering tech-
nology.
Mr. Hayduk, thank you for your service, sir, and for your travels
here to Washington, and we look forward to the conversation
ahead.
I want to recognize Chairman Van Orden to briefly introduce our
third witness appearing before us today.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to introduce Ms. Stephanie Brown, who I have
known for, well, for quite a period of time. For a long time she
says. She happens to be the widow of one of my dear friends, Admi-
ral Tom Brown, who I served with and for on multiple continents
and multiple combat tours and he is a fine man. And I thank you
so much, Stephanie, for your service and sacrifice to our country.
8
Stephanie is the founder and Chairwoman and CEO of The Rosie
Network, which is a group that has been established to help allevi-
ate some of the economic hardships that military folks have and
she has been helping hundreds and thousands of military spouses
start businesses and run them so that their husband or wife can
serve our country with a little less stress.
So, I want to thank you dearly for coming here from San Diego,
California, for your testimony. And I am really looking forward to
the rest of these people hearing your story and what you have done
for our country, ma’am.
And with that, I yield back.
Mr. LALOTA. Thank you. I now recognize the Ranking Member
from Michigan, Ms. Scholten, to briefly introduce our last witness
appearing before us today.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and again,
thank you for allowing this witness to appear remotely. I am de-
lighted to introduce our final witness, Jon Tellier. Mr. Tellier is a
constituent of my district in Michigan’s third congressional district.
His company, JetCo Solutions, is based in Grand Rapids.
It assists other companies in entering the federal marketplace to
bid on government contracts. JetCo Solutions provides research
proposal management, grant writing, and business development for
businesses, helping them win contracts valued at over $4 billion.
Mr. Tellier is a former paratrooper and combat veteran, retiring
from the Army after 23 years of service as a lieutenant colonel. He
held a range of leadership positions in the military, including a de-
ployment to Iraq in support of Operation Desert Shield and Storm.
Mr. Tellier is also deeply committed to his community serving on
boards and committees supporting youth, families, veterans, and
businesses. He represents several congressional districts in Michi-
gan as military academy liaison officer and engages nationally on
veterans and military issues.
I am grateful to him for his service to our great nation and his
leadership to West Michigan. Thank him for appearing today and
juggling through lots and lots of logistical hurdles. I yield back.
Mr. LALOTA. Thank you very much. As I mentioned earlier,
votes have been called. The Committee stands in recess subject to
the call of the Chair. We will resume after votes.
[Recess.]
Mr. WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The Committee will now come to
order and we will pick back up with the witnesses’ testimony.
Now, before recognizing the witnesses, I would like to remind
them that their oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length.
If you see the light turn red in front of you, it means your 5 min-
utes have concluded and you should wrap up your testimony. And
if the red light doesn’t phase you, you will hear this, okay? And
that is a double red light.
All right. So, work with us on that and I know you will do great.
I now recognize, Mr. Belknap for 5-minute opening remarks.
9
STATEMENTS OF WILLIAM J. BELKNAP SR., PRESIDENT,
AEONRG LLC; STEPHEN G. HAYDUK, P.E., MANAGING MEM-
BER, HAYDUK ENGINEERING, LLC; STEPHANIE BROWN,
FOUNDER AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, THE ROSIE NET-
WORK; AND JON TELLIER, PRESIDENT, JETCO SOLUTIONS
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM BELKNAP, PRESIDENT, AEONRG,
LLC
Mr. BELKNAP. Chairman LaLota, Chairman Van Orden, Rank-
ing Members Scholten and Levin, Subcommittee Members, thank
you for holding today’s hearing.
My name is Bill Belknap, I am the president of AEONRG, LLC,
a VA-certified SDVOSB providing construction services for federal
clients. I am grateful to be here today on behalf of the National
Small Business Association testifying on an issue that is vitally im-
portant to our economy, national security, as well as to me person-
ally.
Before my work in private sector, I completed a 20-year Army ca-
reer, graduated from the United States Miliary Academy at West
Point, and the Army’s Ranger and Airborne schools before serving
10 years in command and staff positions with armor combat units.
Subsequently, I spent 10 years in the Army’s Acquisition Corps
serving in positions as construction contracting officer, deputy
Army installation commander, assistant project manager of the
M1A2 Abrams Tank. I culminated my career as director of the
Army Science Board in the Pentagon.
My dream job, however, was starting and growing my own com-
pany. The training, assignments, and experiences I received in the
military were a catalyst to becoming a veteran entrepreneur.
As you know, veterans make up a substantial portion of the
small business community owning roughly 2 million businesses,
employing 5.5 million Americans, payrolls exceeding quarter of a
billion dollars. This substantial footprint illustrates the appeal of
veterans entrepreneurship. Despite this allure, veteran businesses
face unique and persistent challenges.
Actions that I recommend need to be taken, number one, sim-
plification of government solicitations and contracts. We are com-
peting against commercial entities. Many of the FAR and agency-
specific clauses that sometimes take up 50 percent of a solicitation
pages that maybe be up to 150 pages in length should be migrated
to periodic, one-time registration entities such as SAM or SDVOSB
renewal.
This relatively simple change will cut the paperwork associated
with federal contracts in half. The federal government should also
review corporate industry best practices and incorporate more of
these in contracting.
Number two, count military service towards proposal past per-
formance and experience. Too often federal agencies mandate in
their solicitations that prior government contracting experience is
required. But currently military service does not count. The federal
government must mandate that each agency has a policy to ensure
military experience and qualifications count toward acceptability
and competitiveness in evaluating proposals.
10
Number three, accountability of federal agencies meeting and fa-
cilitating set-aside goals. It is too easy for agencies to lump services
together into one very large contact that only large businesses
could legitimately propose and win. The federal government should
develop a carrot-and-stick approach to incentivize agencies meeting
their various small business set-aside goals to include veteran set-
asides. Make—hold them accountable.
Number four, promote veteran entrepreneurship mentorships.
Leaving the military is a culture shock to many. In the military
servicemen and -women are told where they will serve, what they
will wear, how to address their superiors, et cetera.
A veteran entrepreneur will greatly benefit from mentoring by
another veteran that successfully transitioned. Congress should
mandate SBA or VA to organize a task force to develop veteran en-
trepreneurship mentorships.
Number five, self-reporting performance, all agencies incorporate
modern, most efficient acquisition best practices. During the execu-
tion of federal contracts, agencies should emphasize contractors’
self-reporting of their performance. Most companies take great
pride in their work and want to earn the agency’s trust and com-
petence.
Number six, agency acquisition training, standardization, and in-
corporation of modern acquisition best practices and similar con-
tracting and contract management methods among all agency offi-
cials will promote the liquidity of veteran entrepreneurs to serve
during different agencies and increase and spread the flow of talent
among them.
And number seven, increase maximum SDVOSB sole-source
thresholds, use 8A regulations in SDVOSB sole-source award. The
5-year update schedule means that a sole-source contract awarded
now may be worth $1.5 million less if it were awarded after Octo-
ber 1, 2025, when the thresholds update. That is more than a 21
percent difference.
However, increasing the threshold without changing the rules by
which sole-source can be used for SDVOSB set-asides is not effec-
tive or meaningful. Change the rules to match those of 8A sole-
source requirements and you’ll see the program become more effec-
tive.
In addition, this is suggestion from NSBA also encourages the
Committee to look into. Development of the VOSB set-asides, one
possible area of improvement would be the development of specific
set-aside for VOSBs separate from existing SDVOSBs by increasing
total pool of set-asides we help veterans regardless of injury status,
ability to actively participate in federal government contracting,
and more importantly would not dilute, disadvantage the currently
SDVOSB program.
More detail of each of these items can be found in my written
testimony.
In conclusion, on behalf of the NSBA, I want to reiterate that
small business community’s thanks to the Committee for its atten-
tion and to these issues. I look forward to answering any questions.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
I now recognize Mr. Hayduk for 5 minutes, opening remarks.
Mr. HAYDUK. Good morning.
11
Mr. WILLIAMS. Can you turn your mic on?
STATEMENT OF STEPHEN HAYDUK, SENIOR PRINCIPAL,
HAYDUK ENGINEERING, LLC
Mr. HAYDUK. Good morning, and thank you to my congress-
man, Nick LaLota, and to all of you for inviting me to appear be-
fore you today.
I enlisted in the U.S. Army in 1968 and served as a helicopter
crew chief in the Army’s 57th Assault Helicopter Company in Viet-
nam, known as the Gladiators. I returned home, attended college
on the G.I. Bill, and founded my own consulting engineering firm
in 1984.
Hayduk Engineering is both a New York state-certified service-
disabled, veteran-owned business as well as a federally certified
service-disabled veteran-owned small business.
Our company is well-respected on Long Island in New York, and
has grown significantly as a result of the SDVOB program.
Under the state program, however, all contracts issued by any
state agency include a set-aside of about 6 percent, usually 6 per-
cent, for service-disabled veteran-owned businesses. Under the
state program, prime contractors have no choice but to set out—to
seek out an SDVOB to serve as a subcontractor or a subconsultant
in our case.
Our firm gets inquiries every single week from companies pur-
suing contracts with the state asking if we will agree to be part of
them, on their teams, and many of these are very, very large con-
tracts beyond the size that we would go after as a prime.
Getting work under the federal program has been much more
challenging. So, I wanted to emphasize, I am not here to criticize
the federal program, but instead to offer my observations about the
differences between the state and the federal program and how the
federal program might benefit from following some of the examples
set by the state program which has been extremely beneficial to my
firm.
The federal program apparently does not include the same re-
quirements as the New York State program for winners of all con-
tracts awarded to include an SDVOB on the project team.
Under the state program our firm has been awarded hundreds
of engineering contracts helping to create dozens of jobs that
Hayduk Engineering and helping to grow our firm from less than
10 employees in 2015 to nearly 50 today.
Under the federal program we have been awarded one contract
for technical design of an upgrade to the sewage treatment plant
at the VA medical center in Northport, New York. We completed
that work successfully and we have a great working relationship
with the staff at VA’s Northport facility.
We would like to provide engineering support for other federal
agencies that operate on Long Island and I did a quick search and
we came up with a list of about 20 of the federal agencies that we
are aware of. Our firm is well-respected and has been recognized
for the high quality of our work on many levels.
We are notified regularly by local governments about opportuni-
ties for new work as it becomes available. Receiving the same type
of notice about federal procurements in our region would be help-
12
ful. Instead, our staff is left to attempt to identify pending federal
projects by navigating their way through the federal procurement
notices on the internet.
That system, SAM.gov, is more complicated than it should be.
The search engine is cumbersome and when you apply different
search filters to try to identify opportunities by region or by busi-
ness classification it either yields sometimes many irrelevant re-
sults or sometimes very few results. But not often are they applica-
ble or relevant to our type of business.
Because it uses a national database our staff are searching
through projects all over the world that we could never pursue. For
small businesses paying staff to dedicate that type of work hours
to that process is not an efficient or cost-effective use of resources.
Another issue that’s common to the program and is intended to
help small businesses is the need for sustained economic growth.
If a program helps create dozens of new jobs we should have a
shared goal of making sure that the people we hire can rely on
those jobs to continue. The issue I’m raising is the need for a tran-
sition period from business that do grow as a result of the program.
Right now, there is no glide path for a transition to protect a
business and its employees in the event that the veteran owner
passes on, retires, or leaves the business. The intent of the pro-
gram is to help business expand and create new jobs.
But if state SDVOB or a federal SDVOSB certification is lost
abruptly the business could face instant reduction of workflow
meaning instant loss of jobs for those who have benefited, but also
for all the employees that work for that firm.
A transition process to allow companies to reduce their reliance
on SDVOSB would protect businesses.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is——
Mr. HAYDUK. In closing——
Mr. WILLIAMS. Go ahead, quickly.
Mr. HAYDUK. One, consider modifying the program to require
a broader set asides for the contracts issued on federal agencies
similar to approach taken by the state of New York. Consider, two,
consider establishing a proactive notification system alerting
SDVOBs of procurements.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is up.
Mr. HAYDUK. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you.
And I now recognize Ms. Brown for her 5-minute opening re-
marks.
STATEMENT OF STEPHANIE BROWN, CEO AND FOUNDER, THE
ROSIE NETWORK AND U.S. MILITARY SPOUSE CHAMBER OF
COMMERCE
Ms. BROWN. Thank you for the invitation to be here. I’m just
going to jump right in. I am the daughter of a Vietnam veteran
turned small business owner. I was married to a retired Rear Ad-
miral Tom Brown, who served 30 years in the SEAL teams, and
I am the mother of two boys I raised in the military.
I founded The Rosie Network after Rosie the Riveter over 12
years ago and since then we have provided our national award-win-
ning, college-accredited Service to CEO Program and mentoring to
13
tens of thousands of transitioning servicemembers, veterans, and
military spouses, those that are seeking the American dream of
small business ownership.
We represent over 30,000 veteran- and military-affiliated small
businesses around the globe. While we serve Active-Duty veterans
and military spouses, today I would like to speak on behalf of the
48 percent of military spouses who have chosen small business
ownership and entrepreneurship as a viable and portable career.
Why? Because despite our best efforts, military spouse unemploy-
ment and underemployment described by DOD leaders a national
security crisis has remained statistically unchanged for over a dec-
ade.
At 20 to 24 percent, the unemployment rate for military spouses
is 4 times higher than that of the national average. The cost to
American taxpayers is between $700 million and $1.2 billion a
year. More importantly, it causes financial insecurity and stress on
our military families and impacts mission readiness, retention, and
recruitment.
When we are employed, we are paid up to 25 percent less for the
same job as our civilian counterparts. However, small business
ownership is changing the landscape for military spouse employ-
ment, but we need your help. Based on the U.S. Military Spouse
Chamber of Commerce internal data from over 4,000 of its mem-
bers we know that 87 percent of our members are women, 80 per-
cent are married to spouses who are still serving. Collectively, they
employ over 120,000 people, 80 percent of those are fellow military
spouses and veterans, and they generate over $1 billion a year in
revenue.
The top challenges, you mentioned earlier, access to capital, 88
percent of our members are self-funded. The 12 percent that sought
funding, 90 percent were turned down. Financial institutions often
view military spouses as less than favorable due to our nomadic
lifestyles.
Lack of mentoring and training, right now The Rosie Network
has a 6-month wait list because we lack the resources to provide
and hire more qualified instructors.
Rather than the government building yet another program that
very few attend or would recommend, why not support service or-
ganizations who are doing the hard work on the ground? Hold
them accountable, yes. But please do not make these reimbursable
grants that are often paid up to 90 days later. No for-profit com-
pany would be expected to operate on those terms. Seventy-three
percent of military spouses want government contracting opportu-
nities.
Military spouses need to be designated as an economically dis-
advantaged category that will open us up for access to capital, con-
tracting opportunities, and other resources.
I’d like to give a shout out to the Army’s Office of Small Business
who right now, today, are actively doing business with military
spouse-owned companies and they’re tracking their spend.
We need more federal agencies to step up. No federal agency will
get credit for military spouse spend unless we are recognized.
Three years ago, the Military Spouse Chamber rolled out the first
14
industry standard certification for military spouse-owned enter-
prises which we offer for free.
Today, we are the top 2 percent fastest growing chambers in the
country and a number of Fortune 500 companies recognize and ac-
cept our certification, actively want to do business with military
spouses.
If the private sector will not accept self-certification why should
the government? There needs to be reciprocity with vetted third-
party certifiers. Military spouses have earned a seat at the table
through our silent service and sacrifice on behalf of this nation. In
my many decades in this space, not one servicemember or veteran
has ever said to me, don’t help my spouse.
In conclusion, investing in our military spouse small business
owners is an investment in our military families, it’s an investment
in our country and our economy.
Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And now we recognize Mr. Tellier for 5 minutes. How do we have
him set up? Okay. Mr. Tellier?
STATEMENT OF JON TELLIER, PRESIDENT, JETCO SOLUTIONS
Mr. TELLIER. Good morning. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member
Scholten, and other Subcommittee Members, thank you for inviting
me to the Committee hearing and allowing JetCo Solutions the op-
portunity to discuss the entrepreneurial spirit of veterans and the
challenges we face as small business owners. I apologize for not
being in person and the airlines did not cooperate with me.
My name is Jon Tellier. I am a veteran business owner and a sol-
dier for life. My soldier journey began as far back as I can remem-
ber, a young boy playing with green Army plastic men and keeping
a scoresheet of Army trucks and jeeps I sighted during my annual
visit to see my father at Camp Grayling in Northern Michigan.
Football allowed me to attend the United States Military Acad-
emy in 1985. That was the same year Army beat Michigan State
in the inaugural Cherry Bowl at the Superdome. Ironically, my
journey began the same leadership institution as my namesake,
Jon Edward Bokovoy, who was a USMA Class of 1957 and a friend
that my father served with in Vietnam. This learning experience
was then followed by training at the Army’s Airborne and Ranger
School.
My first assignment was with the 3rd Armored Division in the
Federal Republic of Germany, where I was to witness the fall of the
Berlin Wall and the curtailment of communism. I also deployed to
Iraq in support of Operation Desert Shield and Storm, and very
proud to participate in the offensive in response to Saddam Hus-
sein’s invasion of Kuwait.
I also had the privilege of defending America’s freedom as a
member of the 82nd Airborne Division. We had several 2-hour re-
call notices and I exited active duty in the summer of 2000 after
8 moves in 11 years achieving the rank of major.
Some might say this is where my journey stops, but actually a
new chapter was forged.
15
My transition from the Army was a blur. My boss insisted that
I work 12-hour days up to my out-processing time, forcing me to
go on sick call in order to buy a suit for interviews.
I landed in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and began working for a large,
multibillion-dollar company. After a divorce and a move to Grand
Rapids, Michigan, I worked for a small manufacturer.
In 2005, I was let go as the automotive industry took a dive.
Faced with 6 months of unemployment, $214 a week in subsidies,
a kid in travel hockey, private school tuition, and no real job oppor-
tunities, I made a decision to start a business.
Echoes of, are you crazy, and do you know what you are getting
into, to why can’t you just get a normal job, were commonplace. In
the early years there were a few supporters. After developing my
business plan, I briefed the cadre at the Small Business Develop-
ment Corporation, commonly referred to as the SBDC. It went so
bad that I almost decided to look elsewhere.
Undeterred I made the changes and updates and continued on
my purpose of starting a business that would sell packaging sup-
plies to the Department of Defense.
Shortly afterwards, JetCo received its first order, a $14,000 pur-
chase order to McAlester Army Ammunition Plant for ammunition
bags. But how was I going to pay for it since JetCo did not have
a line of credit or any significant savings?
Jim Feeney, previously he had tried to hire me, told his staff to
grant JetCo a small line of credit. And we were able to get our con-
tracting officer, Susaneva Wade, her ammunition bags on time.
Similar instances occurred with the Census Bureau, the United
States Department of Agriculture, the Federal Prison Industries,
and at last count, today over 248 different state and local govern-
ment agencies.
My military training and experience was invaluable for problem
solving and analysis. My mindset of if this, of this, it fails in com-
parison to any patrol in the mountains of Dahlonega, Georgia, or
blocking positions near Basrah helped me get up and go out and
compete every day.
But I could never do it alone. My business partner and spouse
compliments my strengths and weaknesses. PTAC, now known as
APEX, was extremely helpful.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Twenty seconds, Mr. Tellier.
Mr. TELLIER. Today I believe I am living the American dream.
I still worry about payroll, taxes, and healthcare. I am glad that
I was fired in 2006 and forced to think creatively and start JetCo
as a matter of survival, an accidental entrepreneur if you will.
I’m truly appreciative of all the programs, incentives, and assist-
ance we have received in our 18 years of business. In some way,
I feel like today is payment for serving in the Army and protecting
our freedom both in peace and in war.
My hope is to pay that debt forward and that the next generation
of veteran business owners share the same success we have and
are afforded an even greater opportunities and resources. Thank
you.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The reason I mentioned 20 seconds because he
asked for that. Okay. So, I didn’t want you to think we were doing
anything different.
16
I will now move to the Member questions under the 5-minute
rule. I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
For the last 10 years, I have had the privilege of representing
Fort Hood, Texas, better known today as Fort Cavazos. During my
many visits to the base I found it was not only the brave soldiers
serving our country that are interested in pursuing entrepreneur-
ship, but also their significant others.
Ms. Brown, your efforts to help military spouses are very impor-
tant. And can you briefly discuss some of the major challenges mili-
tary spouses face as small business owners?
Ms. BROWN. Thank you for that question. As I mentioned, ac-
cess to capital is, of course, a big challenge, like it is for veteran-
owned. Banks are hesitant because they’re often—they look at their
resume, they see gaps in their resume. Ninety percent of those that
did—of our membership that did attempt to get funding were
turned down, so they see a nomadic lifestyle access to capital.
Also, when it comes to—we find that over 70 percent of our mili-
tary spouse members want to do business with the government, so
getting access to capital, getting access to some of the training and
resources that are available to veterans by designating—giving
military spouses that designation of an economically disadvantage
category will open that up to them.
So, I would encourage the Committee to consider that. It was at-
tempted before, but—and we were engaged in that effort. It was
the same time the SBA was taking over the CVE, the veteran cer-
tification, and they felt that they couldn’t manage both. But I be-
lieve that now is the time to recognize our military spouses. It just
makes a stronger military family. So, thank you.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Mr. Belknap, there are some programs, like Boots to Business,
within the SBA, and we talked about it this morning, that look to
teach servicemembers the basics of running a small business.
However, I have noticed that many veterans often turn to their
friends and the people they served with for advice as they look to
enter the private sector. So, can you describe the work you do in
helping other veterans navigate small business ownership, and
what advice would you have for servicemembers who are consid-
ering taking the leap of faith and starting their own small business
as they embark on their next chapter?
Mr. BELKNAP. Thank you, Congressman Williams. So, there’s a
couple of thoughts about that. Number one is the veteran has got
to decide what type of business they want to offer and that comes
with what are their experiences, what are the skills they offer—
they have to offer the customer, in this case the federal govern-
ment.
Number 2, what is the passion they have to wake up every morn-
ing and they’re excited to do their business? Once they have those
two, of course, they need to come up with a business plan, and the
enormity of opportunities for vetting that business plan for assist-
ance needs to be more informed to veterans.
And number 3, I would suggest that the mentorship program
that I talked about can have an enormous impact. You know, when
I was transitioning out of the military one of the things that during
the TAP program they said is talk to all your bosses to ask them
17
to be a reference to help you find a job, especially the ones that
liked you. And it worked out perfectly for me.
I talked to a boss and I ended up working for a large corporation
until I started my business 10 years later.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Some of you or most of you may not know but
I have been in the car business for over 50 years, 53 years, and
still in the car business. I took over the family business from my
dad and I am going to ultimately pass it along to my two daughters
who work in the business.
Small business ownership as we all know is a family affair. And
when veterans are thinking about passing along their family busi-
ness there are few more things they must consider. And when a
veteran retires the business risks losing their veteran designation
if they do business with the federal government.
While some protections exist for spouses who take over a com-
pany, allowing a transition phase to the company to find non-
veteran business. However, this is not the case when a veteran
passes down their business to a child.
So, Mr. Hayduk, briefly in the time I have got left, do you think
we should look at expanding the surviving spouse designation to
include the children of veterans as well?
Mr. HAYDUK. Yes. I think that would be extremely beneficial
and that is absolute one of the four points that I made the transi-
tion process. My son is sitting behind me and is a licensed profes-
sional engineer in my consulting engineering practice. It’s a profes-
sional practice only another licensed professional engineer can take
over or be an owner, a principal.
But although we had built it up to 50 people, and he is a partner
in the business, a short time after my demise the business will
cease to exist if he doesn’t find a different person to take over as
the SDVOB owner.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, that is good and I would just say to your
son, father knows best, remember that.
Mr. HAYDUK. Oh, I know that.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Okay. I yield my time back.
Now I recognize Ranking Member Scholten for 5 minutes of
questions.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much Mr. Chair and Mr. Tellier,
that worked out quite well. I have some follow-up questions for you
if you are still there. It is wonderful to have a fellow——
Mr. TELLIER. Yes, I am still here.
Ms. SCHOLTEN.—West Michigander here providing some in-
credible insights. Your business assists other companies in winning
contracts with the federal government, a critical service.
What are the most common barriers that you see with small
businesses who are seeking a government contract?
Mr. TELLIER. There’s really no playbook in terms of what you
should do, where you should start, and who you should talk to, and
it can be as simple as a SAM.gov registration and getting your
CAC and your UEI to inputting a SPUR score into PIEE, into de-
termining which agencies and departments are actually buying
products and services that you have to offer.
And then you are asked to write a multivolume proposal to re-
spond to an RFP or a solicitation and there’s—you know, unless
18
you hire somebody to specifically do that, you know, you’re relying
on your own skills.
So, in my mind it’s almost like trying to eat an elephant and try-
ing to figure out where to start. And there’s multiple access points
but I think that the enormity of the information is definitely a bar-
rier to a small business owner.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. And specifically, you know, do you feel that
veteran-owned small businesses face those same challenges to a
greater or lesser degree or about the same?
Mr. TELLIER. I think that—I think veteran-owned, veteran
businesses have the same challenges as small business owners. I
would like potentially see, you know, and there’s been lots of testi-
mony about the different set-asides and small business goals and
diverse goals.
But really I think veteran businesses, if we had more access to
capital and the ability to fund, and it doesn’t have be an insur-
mountable amount of money, but, you know, right now we help vet-
erans, you know, buy homes. Could we help them subside a busi-
ness venture? And then talent and finding people and getting them
to participate in your business.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much. And in my remaining
time, Ms. Brown, I actually wanted to ask you a couple of follow-
up questions. I appreciate your testimony so much and your incred-
ible service to our country through your family, all of you, your in-
credible service.
And I wanted to go back to something you said that just the re-
markably high unemployment rates among military spouses and
how you said that you contributed generally to an overall sense of
instability and military readiness. I can see clearly how that could
be the case.
I am wondering if you could share, you know, a few stories to
help us for the record here as we continue to look for ways to sup-
port heroes like you?
Ms. BROWN. Well, thank you. Thank you for that question. I
can certainly share my own personal story, but I have many others.
I was a small business owner here in Washington, D.C., on that
fateful day that I met what would become my husband a year later.
He received orders overseas to take command and I had to exit my
business.
So, I exited my business at a loss and then moved overseas and
found myself unemployed and unemployable. I can tell you that
while I proudly served alongside and supported my husband’s serv-
ice to the nation, you can’t help but have it impact your marriage
when you are, you know, trying to find a job and you can’t find one
and you have no place or purpose and money is tight and then kids
come along.
So, I do think it impacts marriage and we know statistically that
it impacts retention and recruitment and I think that all we’re, you
know, really looking for is an opportunity, a seat at the table. And
when I noticed other military spouses that were unemployed like
me, it became my goal to then help them. Look, you have a college
education, you have a skillset, you have a passion, turn that into
a business. Right?
19
You’re a teacher, licensed, you can’t get a job teaching, I’m going
to help you turn it into a business. And we’ve done that over and
over and over again. So, it’s been an absolute honor, some of the
stories and people that we’ve helped have just—could write a book
about it.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. Thank you.
Ms. BROWN. Sorry, I went over.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. No. That is very, very helpful testimony. I real-
ly appreciate you being here today. Thank you.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The lady——
Ms. SCHOLTEN. I yield back.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The lady yields back. I now recognize the distin-
guish Chairman Van Orden for 5 minutes for questions.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hayduk, you have been very clear that you have not come
here to criticize these federal programs and I would like to take
that burden for you.
You sat here and you are—I mean it is amazing that you are
praising the acumen of the government of the State of New York
and their ability to make sure that veterans are employed in com-
parison to the federal government, which is—without using vul-
garity I don’t know how to describe the federal government’s proc-
ess at this point.
So, I just want to ask some stuff. Ranking Member Levin and I
were responsible for the Transition Assistance Program. And that
is how I have chosen to try to prevent veteran suicide, taking peo-
ple that are productive members of the military and then imme-
diately transition them to productive members of society writ large
as civilians. I think we are going to, if that 24-month window
where our men and women decide to take a permanent solution to
a temporary problem.
And so, I really want to know, I am going to ask all three of you
this, how do you think that Mike and I can change the Transition
Assistance Program using your subject matter expertise? Because
we don’t have to ask the DoD. We can tell them.
What could we possibly do if you could just have a couple sugges-
tions that Mike and I can take back to our Subcommittee and put
that into the TAP program so that we can help our veterans be-
come productive members of society. And I would like to write
these down if that is okay, Mr. Belknap?
Mr. BELKNAP. Sure. Thank you for this opportunity. You know,
thank you, Congressman, for this opportunity. You know, a couple
thoughts. Number one is transition program that you help found is
amazing and an incredible service to our departing veterans from
the service and transitioning into the commercial world.
You know, I mentioned, I talked about the mentorship and how
that helped me find a job, a corporate job after I exited. I would
suggest that a similar way can happen with encouraging veterans
to become entrepreneurs after they leave as well. And what that
takes is a couple things.
It takes, number one, their realization that it’s another way to
serve their country for all the right reasons. We need a strong in-
dustrial base and they’re contributing to our security in another
manner.
20
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Sir, I do not mean to cut you short.
Mr. BELKNAP. Oh, sure.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. But the coach there is going to whap me with
that gavel if we don’t hit it. So, I have small business mentorship.
Mr. BELKNAP. Sorry.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. So, do you have another suggestion?
Mr. BELKNAP. Yes. So, the mentorship is huge and letting—in-
forming, encouraging veterans that there is another way to serve
their country.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Very well.
Mr. BELKNAP. That is huge.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Mr. Hayduk, do you have any specific rec-
ommendations for Ranking Member Levin and I to bring into the
TAP program?
Mr. HAYDUK. With respect to transition you are talking about?
Mr. VAN ORDEN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HAYDUK. I really don’t know what the answer to that is.
It is one of the things I discussed with Mr. LaLota’s staff when
they called and I spoke with them. It’s a vexing problem, especially
in the case of a professional practice.
But I do think that there should be some consideration of being
allowed to keep the designation of SDVOB going for a significant
period of time that could allow the firm to continue to exist both
to members of the family and/or to others that you may have start-
ed to transition into.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Sir, thank you very much.
I would like to give Ms. Brown a minute. Ma’am?
Ms. BROWN. Thank you for that question. Yes. I absolutely—so
what you refer to, Derrick, is a sense of purpose. I sort of feel like
that is what we do is we are helping people find their sense of pur-
pose after service. First of all, I’ve been to TAPS. I’ve been—they
do offer an optional session on entrepreneurship.
In my experience, whether it’s good or not totally depends on
who is teaching it. I’ve literally been in one, ended up stepping up
and teaching the class myself because the person that was assigned
to teach it had never started a business and didn’t really know
what they were talking about.
They were regurgitating government programs that were avail-
able. Well, that’s great and all well and good, but when you’re
boots on the ground, you’ve got to make payroll, you really—you
need real-world answers and solutions.
So, my suggestion is engage. The government needs to engage
with organizations that are doing the work on the ground. Right?
There needs to be more of that collaboration. We’re cut off.
The SBA just launched a Pathways to Business for military
spouses. And I mean, nothing against my SBA partners, but they
are—it is not well attended and it’s not—so why would they do
that?
The last thing really quick. Post the G.I. Bill, okay, not all vet-
erans and their family members want to go to college. Right?
Please start the conversation. Iver 80 percent of our business own-
ers right now, veteran-owned are over 70 years old.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Ms. Brown, my time has expired.
Ms. BROWN. Thank you.
21
Mr. VAN ORDEN. I yield back.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognized distinguished Ranking Member Mike Levin for
5 minutes of questions.
Mr. LEVIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I just want to asso-
ciate myself with Chairman Van Orden’s question and obviously
look forward to working together to figure this out.
Ms. Brown, I want to thank you for everything that your com-
pany is doing, so much great stuff here, but I wanted to ask a cou-
ple specifics.
One about younger veterans, so a recent SBA report indicated
that millennial veterans are less likely to start new businesses
than non-millennial veterans. What do you think we need to do to
ensure that younger veterans are starting small businesses?
Ms. BROWN. Another great question. So, millennial spouses are
more likely to start a business than millennial veterans. Okay. So,
I would argue, again, it’s a family affair, as you described. Engage
with those spouses.
Military spouses, whether veteran or Active Duty, make, we all
know, the majority of final decisions, housing decisions, school deci-
sions for military families. We are missing, we are coming in the
9th inning when it comes to engaging military spouses.
And again, the way to do that is not to create yet another gov-
ernment program necessarily, but really engage and get advice
from those of us that have been doing it for almost 13 years. So,
I think that’s a huge part of it and the younger ones are—you
know, they have a lot of advantages that the older folks like me
in my 60s didn’t.
We didn’t have access to the internet or eComm and all that
come of stuff. That’s really what they’re gravitating toward. So,
build the TAP program and that training program to be meaningful
to them. Right? To meet them where they are, that’s my advice.
Mr. LEVIN. Yeah, any idea on further specifics? You know, obvi-
ously we really appreciate the feedback.
Good segue to my next question, which is about military spouses.
We have been pushing the Bureau of Labor Statistics to work with
the DOD to better track monthly employment data for military
spouses over time similar to the data they collect on veterans.
We don’t currently have reliable monthly data on miliary spousal
employment. So, it is hard to track the success or failure of policies
to support them. Can you share—and I know you work with tons
of spouses. Can you share what barriers the spouses are facing
when they are trying to start a new business?
Ms. BROWN. Well, as I mentioned before, access to capital being
embraces by the federal government since that’s definitely some-
thing that you can affect, but really at the end of the day it is a
network. We’ve been training, like I said, tens of thousands for
more than 12 years.
What we hear afterwards, those that graduate from our program,
it’s not just the quantifiable impact that we’ve made, right, helping
them get started, make money. But it’s the qualitative impact.
They feel like they belong to a community. They’re not afraid to,
you know, move into becoming an entrepreneur, creating that kind
22
of support system is overwhelming what we get from them that
that’s what mattered.
It was almost for them that impact was greater than making
money. And oftentimes these are just kitchen table small busi-
nesses. They just want to bring in enough money so they can make
a car payment, maybe go on a family vacation.
We’re not talking about the next Microsoft, although we do have
military spouse businesses that are in the—you know, a lot of
money, over millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dol-
lars. So, they are out there.
So, I hope did that answer your question?
Mr. LEVIN. That is helpful. I am going to turn to Mr. Tellier.
Can he hear me, maybe? There he is. Hello, can you hear me?
Maybe not. I think we are having communication trouble with Mr.
Tellier.
Mr. TELLIER. I can.
Mr. LEVIN. Oh, there. Can you hear me?
Mr. TELLIER. I can hear you.
Mr. LEVIN. All right. I will go——
Mr. TELLIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LEVIN.—fast as I can.
Mr. TELLIER. I can hear you.
Mr. LEVIN. So, your company is a service-disabled veteran-
owned small business helping other businesses obtain contracts
with the federal government. Congress passed a law late last year
eliminating the ability of a small business to self certify that it
meets all the requirements of a service-disabled, veteran-owned
small business.
So, a question for you is have you heard any concerns about SBA
requiring businesses to submit their request for certification by De-
cember, this December when the SBA currently has no process to
allow service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses to submit an
application.
Mr. TELLIER. Yes. It’s problematic if you’re requiring certifi-
cation and the body is—the agency does not have a mechanism for
you to certify. I went through certification——
Mr. LEVIN. I am out of time. Maybe we can take this back for
the record and work on it. And I appreciate it and yield back.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
And now I recognize Representative Maloy from the great state
of Utah for 5 minutes.
Ms. MALOY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am a Member of the Small Business Committee, so I am inter-
ested in keeping main streets vibrant and economies vibrant. I am
also interested in supporting veterans so they can thrive after serv-
ice and military families, they can thrive during service.
I am not a veteran. Two of my four brothers are. And I have
watched my family go through multiple deployments. I have seen
my brothers navigate two very different educational situations, one
educated by the military, the other one having his education con-
stantly interrupted by deployments. And I have watched my two
sisters-in-law navigate very different family situations during serv-
ice.
23
And so, I want to say thank you for being here. Thank you for
talking about this. It is really important. We thank veterans for
their service all the time and I think one of the best ways we can
thank veterans for their service and their families for their sac-
rifice is to make sure that you can thrive in our economy.
So, since this is something that my colleague, Mr. Van Orden has
a lot more experience with and I know he had questions he didn’t
get to, I am going to yield the rest of my time to him to follow up
with you on the rest of the questions he has so that we can get the
right answers. Thank you.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. All right. Thank you, gentlelady.
As I said, Mr. Levin and I are on the Economic Opportunity Sub-
committee for the VA, Mr. Hayduk, and what we have noticed is
that the VA is at its core the bureaucracy is incredibly incom-
petent. I get all my healthcare through the VA, including these
raging glasses.
And everybody that claims that VA facility, the folks that check
you in on the desk and provide medical care are aces. They are
just—I am so proud of them. But when we get up to D.C., it be-
comes convoluted.
So, the VA is so dysfunctional that veteran suicide is increasing
although we have given them $120 billion since 9-11. So, they rec-
ognize their dysfunction and they started something called the
Staff Sergeant Fox Grant Program, where we give the VA money,
and then they find organizations that are functional and they give
the money that we give them to the organizations that are actually
doing the work.
And although I do not encourage this, I would not like to be an
enabler, I am wondering if the small business—the SBA were to
have a program like that was specifically designed to cater directly
to veteran-owned businesses as a clearinghouse to kind of skip all
the rest of this noise and the static that we hear.
Do you think that that would be beneficial to you guys? I will
start with you, Mr. Belknap.
Mr. BELKNAP. I can see some—I can see some benefits to doing
that, certainly. I think that a lot of this is awareness. Veterans,
you have to make veterans aware of the programs that are out
there. There are enormous amounts of opportunities, you know,
SBA, SBDC, VOPC, et cetera.
So, they need some awareness to it and they also need some
more awareness to some of the civilian organizations that offer free
counseling and facilitation of veterans to start business, like NSVA,
like National Veterans Small Business Coalition, I’m on the board
of both of them. You know, somebody asked me for a scholarship
to join an organization, as a Board Member I wouldn’t hesitate to
help him. And I know others feel the same way.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Mr. Hayduk?
Mr. HAYDUK. I believe that this falls right into a project that
we have a proposal into the VA right now for privatization of the
operation and maintenance of the VA wastewater treatment facili-
ties at Northport.
I was in government for a 5-year stint as the commissioner of
Public Works, as the Chairman had mentioned. And I think that
24
there are many ways in which the private sector could do some of
the work that government does better than the government does,
and there some things that we shouldn’t be involved in, but I do
think that there are things like that that would work very well.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. I would love to follow up with you. Ms.
Brown, do you think that it would be beneficial if the SBA had a
cadre of people that are specifically assigned to helping military
veterans and after duty servicemen and -women to get grants and
facilitate starting and running small businesses, ma’am?
Ms. BROWN. And military spouse, of course.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Of course.
Ms. BROWN. Absolutely.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Yeah. I am married to one or was. I mean,
I am still married to her, but I am not in the military any longer.
Did you hear that, Sarah? Write that down.
Ms. BROWN. That’s called a veteran spouse. And yes, absolutely.
I mean I—again nothing against and I work closely with the SBA’s
Office of Veteran Business Development. I have applied multiple
times to be on their advisory council and have been turned down
every time. As far as I know they’ve never had a military spouse
on that. So, that’s one issue.
I also, again as I mentioned, there are the majority of—sorry, I’m
looking at the time. To answer your question, yes. First of all, they
need to be turning to the experts. Right.
Mr. VAN ORDEN. Yep. Ms. Brown, my time has expired. I will
take that as yes. I appreciate that greatly.
Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The lady and gentleman yield back.
I now recognize Representative McGarvey from the great state of
Kentucky for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is great to be
here today. I have the honor of serving on both of these Commit-
tees, Small Business and Veterans. I am thrilled we are meeting
together and not just simply at the same time. It is great to see
this because I am going to take a little different tact here.
I think between the Small Business and the Veterans we are
hearing about this a lot, but there is really a lot of synergy that
we can create between these two Committees and what we are see-
ing with veteran entrepreneurs and veterans and what we are see-
ing that makes the small business community great. Because I
know I am a little bit preaching to the choir here, but small busi-
nesses not just are the backbones of our economy, they are the ones
who are spearheading innovation in this country. They produce 14
times more patents than large businesses and universities and they
employ nearly 40 percent of America’s scientists and engineers.
Now, of course, why are they more innovative? They are more in-
novative in large part because they are more agile than these larg-
er companies. They have the incredible ability to execute new ideas
quickly.
And I think these two Committees should consider how we build
the best qualities of small business, especially that innovation, into
federal agencies. And I think we should start with not just vet-
erans but the Veterans Health Administration.
25
The VA should embrace the opportunities to leverage small inno-
vative business solutions that can expand and go beyond con-
tracting preferences and entrepreneurship programs we have heard
about today. We should give the VA a fifth mission, innovation.
Think about it. The VA is the largest integrated healthcare system
in the country. It serves over 9 million veterans, caregivers, and
survivors.
The VA is also a massive medical research institution with bil-
lions, billions in both public and private funding each year, spear-
heading discoveries in health impacts of things like toxic exposure,
brain injury, and trauma, as well as developing novel treatments
for a variety of cancers and other chronic health conditions.
VA is also our largest medical training organization, training
more than 75 percent of practicing clinicians in this country. But
the VA cannot do this alone. There needs to be a complementary
relationship between small businesses and large systems like the
VA. One brings agility, the other brings scale.
So, Mr. Tellier, if the VA adopted innovation as a fifth mission
that was empowered to develop and invest in solutions with small
businesses more effectively especially service-disabled, veteran-
owned small businesses who know the veteran and caregiver chal-
lenges best, what would that mean for the SDVOSBs?
Mr. TELLIER. I think it’s another opportunity for them to pur-
sue a federal contract especially with, you know, being technology
related. And there are several programs out there right now, the
small business innovation and research grants that could be a
model that you could use to develop opportunities for SDVOSBs to
partner and pursue technology opportunities.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Just a follow-up question because those tradi-
tional far-based acquisition, it offers helpful service-disabled vet-
eran-owned small businesses preferences, sole-source and set-aside
options, but those preferences are still difficult to understand, ac-
cess, and navigate.
What are some of the hardships that veteran-owned small busi-
nesses face when seeking out a partnership with the federal gov-
ernment?
Mr. TELLIER. They don’t necessarily understand what the re-
quirements are. And if they—if the requirements are well-docu-
mented, in many cases they don’t have the depth and breadth of
providing the entire solution.
And so I think it was mentioned earlier that SDVOSBs in many
case can’t pursue super large, very large contracts, and so maybe
if we take bite-size pieces in terms of scale and deployability that
might be a better course of action.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you. And just with the 30 seconds we
have got left, Mr. Belknap, I will ask you the same question about
those SDVOSBs. What are some of the hardships they face when
seeking out these partnerships with the federal government?
Mr. BELKNAP. Certainly, you know, access to capital is one of
them that has to be overcome. The second thing is, you know, in
seeking federal government contracts I have run across a number
of conditions where there wasn’t funding for it, so when I am sure
there is funding for the contract or for the initiative to come to fru-
ition.
26
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you so much. Mr. Chairman, I yield
back.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize
Representative Chu from the great state of California for 5 min-
utes.
Ms. CHU. Thank you. And I would like to address this to Lieu-
tenant Tellier. Lieutenant Tellier——
Mr. TELLIER. Yes.
Ms. CHU. Yeah. Okay. Good. Great. You mentioned that many
important initiatives catered specifically to veterans sometimes
reach veterans too late when they have been out of service for
years or even decades, when they have already been rejected for
lines of credit, or when their business have gone under. Can you
talk more about the importance of reaching veterans who have long
since transitioned from Active Duty? What are some ways that we
can better reach this population?
Mr. TELLIER. You know, that’s a great question. And I’ve ob-
served this just recently where a veteran and a servicemember who
spent 30 years in the service, you know, retired and then what
they do is they find themselves on an island, if you will.
And I think if you look at the age and demographics of the VA,
the VFWs, American Legions, Moose, you know, their memberships
are dwindling and so the isolation is not intentional. It’s just we
have an esprit de corps and a support network while we’re in the
service and then that disappears when we exit.
So, I think networking and finding partners that can reach those
veterans and whether they’re starting a business or they’re just
trying to integrate themselves back into the community is a great
start and once we can connect with them, then we can educate,
aware, mentor, and then help them whether they are starting a
business or they’re trying to be a productive member in the com-
munity. And I think it also has an impact on suicide.
Ms. CHU. Thank you for that. Lieutenant Tellier, last year the
SBA established the L.A. regional Veterans Business Outreach
Center at Long Beach City College, which was the first VBOC in
Los Angeles County. This was actually a great step forward be-
cause before that the closest center to my district was hours away
in San Diego.
But while Long Beach is still a long drive for my constituents,
we do have two small business development centers, or SBDCs,
within our district, each with great relationships with the commu-
nity.
How can the Veterans Business Outreach Centers, who help ad-
minister this transition assistance program better, coordinate with
SBDCs to serve veterans, particularly in areas that may not have
a close-by center?
Mr. TELLIER. I think with the technology and I’m definitely—
because I called in for Zoom, I think the VBOCs, you know, should
develop partnerships with the SBDCs and make sure that the
growth groups and the people handling the finances, the business
plans are aware of veterans and opportunities to connect. And we
can do it virtually. Also, I think it’s a responsibility for veterans
who are pursuing businesses to seek out these types of resources
and I also throw the APEX in there as maybe a common glue.
27
And so, if we’re all kind of working together towards a common
goal of helping veteran entrepreneurs I think that’s a good way to
do it, and they don’t necessarily have to come face to face. We can
do it virtually.
Ms. CHU. Got it. Lieutenant Tellier, as a small business owner
yourself, who is a veteran and someone who provides assistance to
so many small businesses, can you talk about the obstacles you
have seen veterans encounter in accessing capital?
This is why I am a big proponent of community advantage which
specifically serves veteran-owned businesses. It helps fill in the
gaps. But can you talk more about these obstacles?
Mr. TELLIER. Absolutely. And the SBDC was actually instru-
mental in us achieving a line of credit where they actually helped
us interview perspective financial institutions and then ultimately
make a decision on a line of credit.
But, you know, when you exit the service and as been mentioned
earlier that, you know, you don’t have a very big war chest. I
moved 8 times in 11 years, didn’t have a lot of money when we
came out of the service, and so if you go into a lending institution
that’s going to be tough.
If you’re going into some of the trades or construction, you need
bonding and so there’s a lot of financial barriers that you—that
preclude you from pursing contracts——
Mr. WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is up.
Mr. TELLIER.—because you’re unable to do that.
Ms. CHU. Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
I would like to thank our witnesses today for your testimony and
for appearing. We appreciate you coming here. And thank you for
your service, all of you.
And without objection, the Members have 5 legislative days to
submit additional materials and written questions for the wit-
nesses to the Chair which will be forwarded to the witnesses. I ask
the witnesses to please respond promptly if that happens.
And if there is no further business, without objection, the Com-
mittee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:22 p.m., the subcommittees were adjourned.]
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