INSURING AGAINST A PANDEMIC: CHALLENGES AND SOLUTIONS FOR POLICYHOLDERS AND INSURERS
Summary
Transcript of a November 19, 2020 virtual hearing of the House Financial Services Subcommittee on Housing, Community Development, and Insurance, Serial No. 116-114, on insuring businesses against pandemic losses. Wm. Lacy Clay chaired the subcommittee, with Steve Stivers as ranking member. Witnesses were Ann Cantrell of Annie's Blue Ribbon General Store for the National Retail Federation, John Q. Doyle of Marsh, Brian Kuhlmann of Shelter Insurance for two insurer trade groups, R.J. Lehmann of the International Center for Law and Economics and Michelle Menendez McLaughlin of Chubb North America. The appendix carries their prepared statements.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
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“INSURING AGAINST A PANDEMIC: CHALLENGES AND SOLUTIONS FOR POLICYHOLDERS AND INSURERS.”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/insuring-against-a-pandemic-challenges-and-solutions-for-policyholders-50e0ff0204/
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INSURING AGAINST A PANDEMIC:
CHALLENGES AND SOLUTIONS FOR
POLICYHOLDERS AND INSURERS
VIRTUAL HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING,
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT,
AND INSURANCE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
NOVEMBER 19, 2020
Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
Serial No. 116–114
(
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INSURING AGAINST A PANDEMIC: CHALLENGES AND SOLUTIONS
FOR POLICYHOLDERS AND INSURERS
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INSURING AGAINST A PANDEMIC:
CHALLENGES AND SOLUTIONS FOR
POLICYHOLDERS AND INSURERS
VIRTUAL HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING,
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT,
AND INSURANCE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
NOVEMBER 19, 2020
Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
Serial No. 116–114
(
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
43–528 PDF WASHINGTON : 2023
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
MAXINE WATERS, California, Chairwoman
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York PATRICK MCHENRY, North Carolina,
NYDIA M. VELÁZQUEZ, New York Ranking Member
BRAD SHERMAN, California ANN WAGNER, Missouri
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma
WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri BILL POSEY, Florida
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
AL GREEN, Texas BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri STEVE STIVERS, Ohio
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado ANDY BARR, Kentucky
JIM A. HIMES, Connecticut SCOTT TIPTON, Colorado
BILL FOSTER, Illinois ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio FRENCH HILL, Arkansas
DENNY HECK, Washington TOM EMMER, Minnesota
JUAN VARGAS, California LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia
AL LAWSON, Florida WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio
MICHAEL SAN NICOLAS, Guam TED BUDD, North Carolina
RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee
KATIE PORTER, California TREY HOLLINGSWORTH, Indiana
CINDY AXNE, Iowa ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
SEAN CASTEN, Illinois JOHN ROSE, Tennessee
AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
BEN MCADAMS, Utah LANCE GOODEN, Texas
ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, New York DENVER RIGGLEMAN, Virginia
JENNIFER WEXTON, Virginia WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts VAN TAYLOR, Texas
TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina
MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
JESÚS ‘‘CHUY’’ GARCIA, Illinois
SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
CHARLA OUERTATANI, Staff Director
(II)
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SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING, COMMUNITY
DEVELOPMENT, AND INSURANCE
WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri, Chairman
NYDIA M. VELÁZQUEZ, New York STEVE STIVERS, Ohio, Ranking Member
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri BILL POSEY, Florida
BRAD SHERMAN, California BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan
AL GREEN, Texas SCOTT TIPTON, Colorado
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee
DENNY HECK, Washington JOHN ROSE, Tennessee
JUAN VARGAS, California BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
AL LAWSON, Florida LANCE GOODEN, Texas, Vice Ranking
RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan Member
CINDY AXNE, Iowa
MICHAEL SAN NICOLAS, Guam
(III)
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CONTENTS
Page
Hearing held on:
November 19, 2020 ........................................................................................... 1
Appendix:
November 19, 2020 ........................................................................................... 45
WITNESSES
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2020
Cantrell, Ann, Owner, Annie’s Blue Ribbon General Store, on behalf of the
National Retail Federation (NRF) ...................................................................... 6
Doyle, John Q., President and Chief Executive Officer, Marsh ........................... 8
Kuhlmann, Brian, Chief Corporate Counsel, Shelter Insurance, on behalf
of the American Property Casualty Insurance Association (APCIA) and
the National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies (NAMIC) .............. 13
Lehmann, R.J., Executive Editor and Senior Fellow, International Center
for Law and Economics ........................................................................................ 11
McLaughlin, Michelle Menendez, Chief Underwriting Officer, Chubb North
America ................................................................................................................. 10
APPENDIX
Prepared statements:
Cantrell, Ann .................................................................................................... 46
Doyle, John Q. .................................................................................................. 49
Kuhlmann, Brian .............................................................................................. 100
Lehmann, R.J. ................................................................................................... 109
McLaughlin, Michelle Menendez ..................................................................... 115
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Clay, Hon. Wm. Lacy:
Written statement of the American Academy of Actuaries .......................... 123
Written statement of the Independent Insurance Agents & Brokers of
America (Big ‘‘I’’) ........................................................................................... 128
Written statement of the Business Continuity Coalition .............................. 137
‘‘Catastrophe Bonds, Pandemics, and Risk Securitization’’ .......................... 143
Written statement of CIAB .............................................................................. 206
Written statement of the Events Industry Council (EIC) ............................. 208
Written statement of the International Council of Shopping Centers
(ICSC) ............................................................................................................ 209
Leadership Letter ............................................................................................. 211
Written statement of the National Association of Insurance Commis-
sioners (NAIC) ............................................................................................... 213
Written statement of the National Association of REALTORS (NAR) ........ 267
Written statement of the National Association of Professional Insurance
Agents (PIA) .................................................................................................. 269
Written statement of the Retail Industry Leaders Association .................... 274
Written statement of the Screen Actors Guild-American Federation of
Television & Radio Artists (SAG-AFTRA) .................................................. 276
Letter to President Trump from Chairman Clay and Ranking Member
Stivers ............................................................................................................ 278
Gooden, Hon. Lance:
Written statement of America’s Recovery Fund Coalition ............................ 280
(V)
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VI
Page
Maloney, Hon. Carolyn:
ASAE Letter ...................................................................................................... 281
Film, TV, and Sports Coalition Letter ............................................................ 336
List of organizations that have publicly endorsed H.R. 7011, the Pan-
demic Risk Insurance Act ............................................................................. 338
Stivers, Hon. Steve:
Written statement of the Independent Insurance Agents & Brokers of
America (Big ‘‘I’’) ........................................................................................... 128
Written statement of the Business Continuity Coalition .............................. 137
Written statement of the National Association of Insurance Commis-
sioners (NAIC) ............................................................................................... 213
Written statement of the National Association of REALTORS (NAR) ........ 267
Written statement of Jason Schupp, Centers for Better Insurance ............. 340
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INSURING AGAINST A PANDEMIC:
CHALLENGES AND SOLUTIONS FOR
POLICYHOLDERS AND INSURERS
Thursday, November 19, 2020
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING,
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT,
AND INSURANCE,
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., via
Webex, Hon. Wm. Lacy Clay [chairman of the subcommittee], pre-
siding.
Members present: Representatives Clay, Velazquez, Cleaver,
Beatty, Green, Maloney, Heck, Vargas, Lawson, Axne; Stivers,
Posey, Zeldin, Kustoff, Rose, Steil, and Gooden.
Ex officio present: Representatives Waters and McHenry.
Also present: Representatives Hollingsworth, Gonzalez of Ohio,
and Timmons.
Chairman CLAY. The Subcommittee on Housing, Community De-
velopment, and Insurance will come to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of
the subcommittee at any time.
Also, without objection, members of the full Financial Services
Committee who are not members of this subcommittee are author-
ized to participate in today’s hearing.
Members are reminded to keep their video function on at all
times, even when they are not being recognized by the Chair. Mem-
bers are also reminded that they are responsible for muting and
unmuting themselves, and to mute themselves after they are fin-
ished speaking.
Consistent with the regulations accompanying House Res. 965,
staff will only mute Members and witnesses as appropriate, when
not being recognized by the Chair, to avoid inadvertent background
noise. Members are reminded that all House rules relating to order
and decorum apply to this remote hearing.
Today’s hearing is entitled, ‘‘Insuring Against a Pandemic: Chal-
lenges and Solutions for Policyholders and Insurers.’’ And I now
recognize myself for 3 minutes to give an opening statement.
According to the Congressional Research Service (CRS), 110 mil-
lion people worldwide could enter a state of extreme poverty due
to the global economic contraction, and here in the United States,
(1)
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2
67 million people have filed for unemployment insurance since
March of this year.
The harmful effects of this pandemic on the stability of small
businesses, like restaurants, cannot be overstated. There have been
literally dozens of restaurants in my home district in St. Louis that
have closed, many permanently, as a result of this pandemic. And
with them, the vendors who sell them goods, the farmers who grow
the food, the truck drivers, the storage facilities; entire supply
chains are affected.
Though many businesses have insurance, most of the policies
have exclusions for pandemics, which are likely to be upheld in the
courts. I would add that for many small businesses around this
country, the probability of even suing to enforce the policy is un-
likely, given the high cost of litigation.
On the other hand, it is not realistic or practical to expect the
insurance industry to shoulder the astronomical costs of a global
pandemic. The American Property Casualty Insurance Association
(APCIA) has estimated that paying all claims, regardless of exclu-
sions, would amount to $1 trillion per month.
While I applaud the introduction of legislation by my colleagues,
like Congressman Thompson and Congresswoman Maloney, and
the input from industry, my bottom line is that any solution will
need effective buy-in from industry, and will need to deal with the
conundrum posed by the fact that many of the business interrup-
tion insurance cases being adjudicated have been dismissed, not
only because of any virus exclusion, but also because of a lack of
direct physical loss or damage. And for businesses, there is an ex-
pectation that you would have some skin in the game, particularly
if you are going to petition or even accept government assistance.
Indeed, perhaps industry could work with business owners and
consumer groups to devise a type of umbrella policy for which the
business pays a suitable premium and is insured for everything,
because the current system is rife with confusion and complexity,
and because it is my firm belief that a small business owner should
not need a battalion of lawyers to handle their insurance claim
after faithfully paying their premium.
And I look forward to the testimony of our witnesses as we roll
up our sleeves and try to find a viable solution.
The Chair now recognizes the ranking member of the sub-
committee, Mr. Stivers, for 4 minutes for an opening statement.
Mr. STIVERS. Thank you, Chairman Clay. I want to thank you for
convening this hearing.
First, I would like to take a moment to thank our colleague from
New York, Congresswoman Maloney, for her efforts to put forward
an idea as early as May of this year. Her work should be ap-
plauded as a symbolic first step.
But I would like to take a step backward and put this hearing
in perspective. The problems and solutions that we are going to dis-
cuss today are about creating a plan for the next pandemic. For
that reason, it is so much more important that we get this right,
than that we do it fast.
Congresswoman Maloney has reached out to me and asked for bi-
partisan collaboration. I feel very strongly, as you do, too, Mr.
Chairman, that any product that we put forward must have mean-
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3
ingful support from both parties. And ultimately, if we are going
to have any impact on Senate deliberations, we need a really big
vote, so we need a bipartisan agreement.
And as the ranking member of this subcommittee, I can tell you
that Republicans are committed to working in a bipartisan way,
but we need to make sure that as we do that, I think, again, we
take a step back and don’t start with a preconceived outcome.
When we take a step back, maybe we will end up using an insur-
ance industry model or maybe we will end up with a noninsurance
approach like a parametric PPP grant. But whatever we do, we
must first make sure that it solves the problems of businesses that
are shut down during the next pandemic.
Some of my colleagues today may focus on the existing frame-
work in place for the terrorism risk insurance, but I want to be
really clear: The scale and scope of a pandemic is orders of mag-
nitude bigger than a terrorist attack. You illustrated that, too, Mr.
Chairman.
I think we should spend our time today trying to understand the
nature of the problem and the issues around those four people who
will be testifying today, people who are experiencing the problem
day to day.
Furthermore, as we have seen, the pandemic has proved disas-
trous for one-time large events as well. Any solution that we ad-
dress must look at event cancellation as well. That is something
that is not in this proposed legislation at all.
I would now like to yield some time to the ranking member of
the full Financial Services Committee, Ranking Member McHenry,
but before I do, while I am not advocating for any one proposal, I
would ask unanimous consent to enter a Business Community Coa-
lition statement into the record. They did not have a witness that
was allowed for this hearing. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask
unanimous consent to enter their statement into the record.
Chairman CLAY. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Now, Mr. Stivers, I am going to recognize the Chair of the Full
Committee, Chairwoman Waters, and then I will recognize Rank-
ing Member McHenry.
Mr. STIVERS. Yes. I just want to give him some of my time.
But thank you for holding this hearing, Mr. Chairman. I think
this is a critical first step, and I look forward to working together
to get things done.
I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. The gentleman yields back.
And now, I recognize the Chair of the Full Committee, the gen-
tlewoman from California, Chairwoman Waters, for 1 minute.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much, Chairman Clay.
When the COVID-19 pandemic hit in March, small businesses
were devastated, and have been largely unable to rely on their
business interruption insurance policies to cover these losses. As
we enter the winter months, economic forecasters are warning that
small businesses, many of which have not recovered from the dis-
ruptions they have experienced already this year, may permanently
close if policymakers don’t act.
Congress has an important role to play. But with the election of
President-elect Biden, I am hopeful the government will respond to
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4
this pandemic with effective leadership, which has been and con-
tinues to be absent under the current President.
So, I am looking forward to today’s discussion of the various
paths forward, and I thank the witnesses that we will have here
today.
I yield back. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman CLAY. I thank the chairwoman.
And I now recognize the ranking member of the Full Committee,
the gentleman from North Carolina, Ranking Member McHenry,
for 2 minutes.
Mr. MCHENRY. Thank you, Chairman Clay.
Chairman Clay, thank you for your leadership. You have been a
strong advocate for your deeply held convictions during your time
in Congress. And I want to commend you also for your bipartisan
work in Congress, and it has been an honor to serve with you here
on the Financial Services Committee.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you.
Mr. MCHENRY. And I appreciate the subcommittee holding this
hearing. I know it has been delayed because of the nature of this
election year, and what has happened across the last couple of
months. It is an important issue to tens of millions of Americans
and small business folks.
I also appreciate the work of the gentlelady from New York, Mrs.
Maloney. What she has done on this issue is to put a marker down
to show that Congress should get to work on a pandemic response
for future pandemics. And while I have concerns about the con-
struct of her legislation, the Pandemic Risk Insurance Act (PRIA),
and I think there are a number of unsolved problems in it, it is a
nice first step to start this conversation.
And there are some unworkable parts of what she has laid out.
There are some unresolved parts. But I think we can work through
it and come to a bipartisan agreement that would have lasting im-
pacts on small businesses and folks across the country.
Instead, I think our businesses do deserve a bipartisan, con-
sensus-based solution that builds on existing successful ideas that
we have put in place over this last year. I think we need to look
at solutions that incentivize participation. We need to look at solu-
tions that are scalable, solutions that harness the power of our
State-by-State regulatory environment, and look at existing pro-
grams like the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP), that have
saved millions of small businesses.
So, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for your leadership. And
I look forward to the testimony today.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. McHenry.
I now recognize the gentlelady from New York, Mrs. Maloney,
who is also the Chair of the House Committee on Oversight and
Reform,
Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you, Chairman Clay, and Chairwoman
Waters, for holding this important hearing.
After the terrorist attacks on 9/11, the economy in New York
completely shut down. We couldn’t build anything because insur-
ance companies would not insure any property against terrorist at-
tacks. So, we came together in a bipartisan way and passed the
Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA). TRIA successfully unlocked
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5
the market, got the economy moving again, and put people back to
work. And that is what we are trying to do with the Pandemic Risk
Insurance Act (PRIA).
Tens of thousands of small businesses have closed their doors
permanently. Entire industries, from travel, to film and television,
have been upended, and they have no way to protect themselves
from future pandemic-related losses.
Currently, business interruption insurance policies explicitly ex-
clude pandemics. We can’t continue to expose our economy and our
small businesses to this level of risk and expect them to recover.
We know the Federal Government will step in during the next
crisis. So, why not be proactive and develop a long-term solution?
PRIA is a starting point for a forward-looking, public-private,
risk-sharing partnership that would provide a Federal backstop for
business interruption policies that include coverage for pandemics.
PRIA would create a totally voluntary program. Insurers could pro-
vide policies if they wanted to, and policyholders could purchase
them if they wanted to. It is totally voluntary.
A broad consensus has emerged that pandemic risk is insurable
with an appropriate Federal backstop, and this is supported by
more than 50 stakeholder organizations.
At this point, we are simply debating the best way to structure
such a program. And I am willing to collaborate with any of my col-
leagues, Democratic and Republican, as well as stakeholders, to im-
prove this bill and do just that. We must be proactive.
Mr. Chairman, may I place in the record the list of the 50 organi-
zations and insurance companies that are now supporting it?
Chairman CLAY. Without objection, it is so ordered.
And the gentlewoman’s time has expired. Thank you.
Today, we welcome the testimony of our distinguished witnesses:
Ann Cantrell, owner of Annie’s Blue Ribbon General Store, on be-
half of the National Retail Federation; John Doyle, president and
CEO of Marsh & McLennan; Brian Kuhlmann, chief corporate
counsel, Shelter Insurance, on behalf of APCIA and NAMIC;
Michelle Menendez McLaughlin, chief underwriting officer of
Chubb North America; and R.J. Lehmann, executive editor and
senior fellow, International Center for Law and Economics.
Our witnesses are reminded that your oral testimony will be lim-
ited to 5 minutes. You should be able to see a timer on your screen
that will indicate how much time you have left, and a chime will
go off at the end of your time.
I would ask you to be mindful of the timer, and quickly wrap up
your testimony if you hear the chime, so that we can be respectful
of both the witnesses’ and the committee members’ time. And with-
out objection, your written statements will be made a part of the
record.
Ms. Cantrell, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an
oral presentation of your testimony.
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6
STATEMENT OF ANN CANTRELL, OWNER, ANNIE’S BLUE RIB-
BON GENERAL STORE, ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL RE-
TAIL FEDERATION (NRF)
Ms. CANTRELL. Good morning, Chairman Clay and Ranking
Member Stivers. It is an honor to appear before you today to dis-
cuss pandemic risk insurance from a policyholder’s perspective.
I would like to give a special shout-out for women, and thanks
to my Congresswoman, Nydia Velazquez, who has been a champion
for women-owned businesses. We have been women-owned and op-
erated since the get-go, and I am so proud that she chairs the
House Small Business Committee. The fact that this hearing is
being held shows that Members of Congress really do care about
people on Main Street.
The National Retail Federation (NRF) has partnered with Con-
gresswoman Carolyn Maloney, the sponsor of the Pandemic Risk
Insurance Act, and we would like to thank her for her leadership
on this issue. We look forward to bringing much-needed protection
and relief to retailers across the country who have been suffering
during this crisis.
Retail sales and jobs have been devastated by the pandemic. This
is not only a health crisis, but a dire economic crisis.
It is an honor to appear today on behalf of the NRF. I am joining
you from Brooklyn, New York, where I have had the pleasure and
the honor of owning a thriving gift shop for the past 13 years. We
are a community store, and people look to us as a pillar of light
and hope in the neighborhood. Kids meet their friends at the shop
to pick out a gift for their teacher. Parents bribe their kids with
a treat from our store if they have to get a shot at the doctor or
reward them if they get a good report card. Neighbors come in
daily to see what is new.
However, all of this changed in March when the whole world
started to cave in around us because of COVID-19. When my team
and I discussed closing on Friday, March 13th—yes, Friday the
13th—I immediately called my insurance company. My broker has
been with me since the beginning and has never steered me wrong.
We have an honest relationship, and he knows my business well.
I love that he and his wife even follow my shop on Instagram.
He taught me my favorite term in business, ‘‘a measured risk,’’
and that is exactly what he called my move to a new location 7
years ago when we doubled our square footage and quadrupled our
business. He has always been extremely helpful and straight-
forward.
I remember proudly showing him our new place as he explained
in detail our comprehensive insurance policy that will cover 12
months of business income if something should happen to my busi-
ness and I needed to shut down. I have all-risk special form insur-
ance from the Hartford/Sentinel Insurance Company which costs
$6,182.53 annually. This doesn’t include workers comp or ERISA
bond insurance, which I also carry.
This is a big expense for a small business, one I thought would
help me in crisis situations. However, harsh reality soon set in. I
quickly learned that viruses and pandemics were excluded from in-
surance policies like mine years ago. Even though we were ordered
to close our business by the Governor, there would be no relief from
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7
our insurance company because it is not considered a business
interruption, because it is not property damage.
Insurance companies should not be in the practice of denying pol-
icyholders coverage when they need it the most. What happened to,
‘‘You are in good hands,’’ or ‘‘Like a good neighbor, so and so is
there?’’
As I read back through my email conversations with my broker,
my heart just sinks at the desperation in my tone as I slowly real-
ized what was happening. Even as I followed up after seeing posts
on social media saying restaurants would be covered, and reached
out for help and guidance, there was no relief in sight.
I made similar calls to my landlord as I tried desperately to fig-
ure out how I would keep covering other financial obligations and
pay my team members. I kept trying to figure out our next moves.
The next few months were the darkest of my life. Navigating the
uncertainty of a business I dedicated years of my life to has been
so sad and stressful, compounded by the frustrating and traumatic
experience of applying for and hoping to get a PPP loan.
Fortunately, we did receive a $58,000 PPP loan, and I would like
to thank the Members of Congress who supported the Coronavirus
Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act, which really
helped keep us afloat. All in all, we were closed for over 3 months,
missing some really big holiday selling for us through Easter and
Mother’s Day. In the same timeframe for 2019, we made $300,000.
This year, we made a little more than half, at $166,000.
I understand the Pandemic Risk Insurance Act is a solution that
would only cover future pandemics, but it still needs to be passed
as soon as possible because we never know when the next pan-
demic will come. We certainly didn’t see this one coming. And in
the meantime, I urge Members of Congress to provide some sort of
relief to businesses that were forced to close by government man-
date during COVID-19, even if it is not in the form of business
interruption insurance as such.
I would also like to note that the National Retail Federation is
a member of the Business Continuity Coalition (BCC). The BCC
seeks not only widespread availability and affordability of nondam-
aged business interruption insurance coverage, but also restoration
and expansion of pandemic coverage and other lines. This includes
event cancellation, movie/TV production insurance, employment
practices, liability, and other lines that have been hard hit by
COVID-19.
The Pandemic Risk Insurance Act would establish a Federal pro-
gram that would help businesses obtain insurance coverage for
pandemics modeled on the program for terrorism insurance estab-
lished following 9/11. When businesses could not obtain coverage
for acts of terrorism after 9/11, Congress stepped in. It is time for
Washington to do the same for pandemics.
The country needs a Pandemic Risk Insurance Act. Not every
pandemic will have a worldwide impact, but when one occurs, it is
likely to once again result in nearly total cessation of business.
This legislation is the cornerstone of a proactive approach in man-
aging the risk and impact of a pandemic in the future. It is time
for a real solution to solve a real problem.
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8
I would like to thank the committee for inviting me here, and I
am ready for any questions you may have.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Cantrell can be found on page
46 of the appendix.]
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Ms. Cantrell.
Mr. Doyle, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral
presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF JOHN Q. DOYLE, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF
EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MARSH
Mr. DOYLE. Thank you. And good morning, members of the sub-
committee.
My name is John Doyle, and I am the president and CEO of
Marsh, the world’s largest insurance broker, and a business of the
Marsh & McLennan companies. I appreciate the opportunity to
speak with you about the need for a public-private partnership to
insure pandemic risk.
While the COVID-19 pandemic is first and foremost a human
tragedy, we are deeply concerned about its impact on the economy
and on our clients. Our primary role as an insurance broker and
risk adviser is to be an advocate for our clients, which is why I am
here with you all today.
At Marsh, we believe that a public-private partnership is the
best option to pursue for a pandemic risk solution. For that reason,
I want to recognize the leading role that Congresswoman Maloney
has had in the debate, including introducing the legislation that
has brought us here today.
Although some have suggested Congress should delay until the
current pandemic is over, we feel there are compelling reasons to
act now.
First, acting now on a public-private pandemic risk solution will
accelerate the economic recovery by reducing uncertainty. Moving
forward, capital markets will seek assurance that companies have
protection against prospective pandemic risk. The pace of recovery
will depend upon the nature and degree of confidence in the mar-
ketplace.
Second, taking action now will provide financial protection
against future pandemics, in part by absorbing some of the
pandemic’s initial financial shock.
Third, if we start now, with time and the right solution, we can
bend the risk curve for future pandemics. Insurance creates the
right economic incentives to drive change in society. Moving quick-
ly will help us to harness risk management and to build a more
resilient U.S. economy.
By definition, pandemics are global, meaning that clients and in-
surers cannot diversify against them as they can with other catas-
trophes. And the stakes around pandemic risk for policyholders—
and these include businesses and organizations of all sizes and
from all sectors—are too high to defer action.
As we have thought about developing a workable solution, the
following principles have guided us.
First, we look at risk mitigation and resilience. How should the
solution be designed so that it embeds measures to encourage resil-
ience in the community? For example, should it incentivize pre-
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9
ventative measures on the part of insureds? Should it invest pool
reserves in resilience initiatives or be linked to ongoing government
commitments to build resilience in the system?
Next, is the funding model. A public-private partnership could fa-
cilitate increased private market participation over time with an
appropriate level of industry commitment.
A third principle involves the scope of coverage. Should the cov-
erage be compulsory for insurers to offer, and should it also be
compulsory at some level to purchase?
Next, is the distribution and operating model. A solution must
contemplate the infrastructure required to operate the scheme on
a going-forward basis and the technology that is needed to meet its
objectives.
Finally, a claims process solution must include a well-defined
trigger that identifies relevant thresholds and specifies how and
when claims are to be paid.
The credit and power of the U.S. Government is essential to cre-
ating a program that harnesses the financial and social benefits of
insurance to mitigate pandemic-related economic losses, while also
providing greater certainty about a sustained recovery.
At the same time, I believe the insurance industry has a role to
play, to which you may be asking: Are pandemics insurable? The
answer is complex. The last several months have demonstrated
that traditional insurance solutions and the commercial insurance
market do not fully provide businesses and others with the protec-
tion they need against the enormous costs of a pandemic.
Pandemic insurance has existed for a long time, but has rarely
been purchased. Its cost and the low likelihood of an event makes
policyholders reluctant to insure against it. At the same time, var-
ious insurance policies explicitly exclude pandemic risk. The main
reason for that is that the payouts, while sporadic, could be so
enormous that they exceed the insurers’ capacity to bear them.
Despite that, many companies are now looking to existing poli-
cies for help with the ongoing financial loss from COVID-19. Even
without specific pandemic insurance in place, insurers will un-
doubtedly pay out tens of billions of dollars in COVID-19-related
losses. Nevertheless, some policyholders will be disappointed.
The complex nature of pandemic risk means that we need strong
national pandemic risk management. This requires insurers,
backed by the Federal Government, to write pandemic insurance
policies and for brokers to contribute our risk knowledge and infra-
structure. Widespread pandemic coverage would make the insur-
ance sector the first line of economic response in future outbreaks.
A public-private partnership will help facilitate coverage, align
the needs of insurance buyers and insurers to avoid losses, and
incentivize pandemic risk preparedness and mitigation. Over time,
a risk program can spur new technologies, insurance products, and
processes to mitigate the enormous losses associated with
pandemics.
Public-private partnerships have been proven to build resilience
into the economy. While pandemic risk is very different than ter-
rorism or crop-related risk, if we create the right economic incen-
tives for insurers, policyholders, and the government, insurance
can serve its traditional function of mitigating risk.
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Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Doyle can be found on page 49
of the appendix.]
Chairman CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Doyle.
Ms. McLaughlin, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give
an oral presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF MICHELLE MENENDEZ MCLAUGHLIN, CHIEF
UNDERWRITING OFFICER, CHUBB NORTH AMERICA
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. Good morning, Chairman Clay, Ranking Mem-
ber Stivers, and subcommittee members. My name is Michelle
Menendez McLaughlin. I am the chief underwriting officer for the
Small Business and Commercial Middle Market at Chubb, which
is one of the largest insurers of small, medium-sized, and large
businesses around the world, with over 16,000 employees in 44
branches.
Thank you for inviting me to speak regarding pandemic risk and
our ideas for creating a public-private partnership that includes
risk sharing by the insurance industry.
My role gives me a unique insight into the economic effects of
pandemics, especially for small business consumers, and I appre-
ciate the opportunity to discuss our perspective with you.
As COVID-19 has shown, pandemics are not only tragic in their
impact on people’s health and lives, but also devastating in their
impact on the economy and people’s livelihoods.
We believe the insurance industry has an important role to play,
alongside the Federal Government, in providing assistance to busi-
nesses to blunt the economic impact of future pandemics.
Some risks can create losses so great that they are not insurable
in the private insurance market without substantial government
support. Pandemics, unlike other catastrophes such as wildfires
and hurricanes, are not limited to a specific geography, time period,
or risk class, but instead can affect entire economies and almost
every business.
The private insurance market cannot underwrite the shutdown of
the U.S. economy, but with substantial government involvement,
the insurance industry can and should have a meaningful role in
providing coverage as part of a public-private partnership. Industry
involvement will lead to greater understanding of pandemic risk,
better preparedness, and improved mitigation.
Chubb has some ideas and created a framework to help Congress
think about ways to do that. Our proposal has two components
built around five key attributes.
We need a program that provides a meaningful role for the insur-
ance industry to share pandemic risk with the government, a struc-
ture that recognizes the immediate needs of small business, pro-
vides affordability and choice for small businesses with strong in-
centives to purchase coverage, and timely claim payments in crisis.
A program should provide incentives for broad participation by the
insurance industry and be fiscally responsible.
The first component addresses the needs of small businesses, and
the second focuses on medium-sized and large businesses. We have
bifurcated the program because pandemics affect small and large
businesses differently. They require a different approach.
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11
The details are included in my written testimony, but, briefly,
part one is for small businesses. It provides coverage for up to 3
months of payroll, plus other expenses such as rent and utilities.
Claims are based on a predetermined amount and paid automati-
cally when the program is triggered. This provides policyholders
with the certainty that they will receive timely financial assistance
after an event.
The industry share of the risk increases from $15 billion in the
first year of the program to $30 billion over 20 years.
To address the concern that some insurers might not have the
financial capacity to assume risk, each individual insurer’s reten-
tion is based on its market share, so a smaller insurer with less
market share would assume less liability under the program. Pol-
icyholders would only pay for private sector coverage, not the gov-
ernment-provided assistance which keeps premiums affordable.
Part two creates Pan Re, a Federal reinsurance facility for busi-
nesses with more than 500 employees. Private insurance companies
that choose to sell coverage would write pandemic policies at mar-
ket terms and retain some portion of the risk. The rest would be
reinsured to Pan Re, which would be paid adequate rates for pro-
viding coverage.
Purchase would be voluntary, and insureds could elect 1 to 3
months of coverage with a maximum payout of $50 million per pol-
icy. We estimate Pan Re’s exposure would be $400 billion, with pri-
vate insurers absorbing $15 billion of that in year one, increasing
to $30 billion in year 10 of the program.
Our proposal is one of several that has been suggested in recent
months. The framework might not answer all of the questions, but
we believe addressing the unique needs of small, medium-sized,
and large businesses, and a significant risk-taking role for the in-
dustry, is critical to the success of any program.
We appreciate your interest in Chubb’s perspective and look for-
ward to working with you on this critical issue. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. McLaughlin can be found on
page 115 of the appendix.]
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Ms. McLaughlin.
Mr. Lehmann, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an
oral presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF R.J. LEHMANN, EXECUTIVE EDITOR AND SEN-
IOR FELLOW, INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR LAW AND ECO-
NOMICS
Mr. LEHMANN. Thank you, Chairman Clay, Ranking Member
Stivers, and members of the subcommittee. I am R.J. Lehmann, a
senior fellow with the International Center for Law and Economics.
I concur with the other witnesses that the problem of pandemic
risk is one the insurance industry cannot solve on its own. I would
go further and raise the question of whether insurance is actually
the best structure for this problem. Insurance is a system of risk
transfer. It is not a system of economic assistance.
The committee has heard from me before on the dangers of moral
hazard insurance, and I am going to be clear that I don’t actually
have those concerns about the proposals before you today. I would,
if the plan were to backstop workers compensation or liability, that
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is where you really do need price signals to signal the businesses
to invest in mitigation and protect their employees and their cus-
tomers.
Business interruption is a different story. There is no moral haz-
ard because there is nothing a business can do to avoid a pan-
demic. So, there may be a role for the Federal Government to sup-
port business interruption.
But understand the limits of that approach. Only about a third
of businesses have business interruption, and less than a third
would end up buying pandemic business interruption insurance.
The Pandemic Risk Insurance Act (PRIA) would remove buyers ex-
clusions from commercial property insurance policies, but that
doesn’t mean it would end claims disputes. Any property insurance
claim, including for business interruption, needs to show damage
to the property.
The legal theory in COVID claims that surface contamination is
physical damage is a bit of a bank shot. Most business closures
have nothing to do with contaminated surfaces. Businesses have
been closed to avoid transmission between people. That is not cov-
ered by property insurance.
Also, does a pandemic claim require there to be a shutdown? Be-
cause business plummeted before any shutdowns, it plummeted in
places where there were no shutdowns, and it stayed depressed
long after the shutdowns were lifted. Business fell because con-
sumers did not want to be infected. There is no insurance claim for
that.
The best argument for a public-private partnership is that insur-
ers can help policyholders to mitigate risk. But it is important to
ask, mitigate the risk of what? It is not the risk that a business
is unsafe. As I mentioned, that is on the liability side. The risk you
would be trying to reduce is the risk that a business will shut
down. But in a pandemic, we want businesses to shut down. We
want them to have a safety net so that they can shut down and
survive and not lobby to lift lockdown orders, because that is how
you get the situation where schools are closed but bars and gyms
are open.
So speaking as someone who had has long preached the gospel
of risk-based insurance, I am telling you that you do not want this
to be a risk-based program. A risk-based program would mean
technology firms that can work remotely would pay the least, but
restaurants, community theaters, and churches would pay the
most. I don’t think that is the outcome you want.
Also, just consider how much has changed since proposals like
PRIA and the Business Continuity Protection Program (BCPP)
were introduced. I consulted with the trades on the BCPP. I think
the 3-month benefit cap was my idea. Back in April, that seemed
generous, but it doesn’t look like that now.
PRIA originally was a $500 billion program. It is now a $750 bil-
lion program. Not only is that clearly not enough, but given that
it is structured as one pot of money, if it had been in place during
COVID, it would all have been eaten up by New York before we
got to the second wave or the third wave.
So we can try to draw some lessons, but let’s be humble about
how little we know even about the current pandemic. The lesson
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13
I draw is that you want broad participation with a bias toward
small businesses. Large businesses already have a lot of insurance
options available to them, including captives, which I suspect we
will discuss more today.
This shouldn’t be just an insurance industry program; get the
banks and the payroll processors to help market it. When it comes
to distributing benefits, you don’t want to go through the claims
adjustor process. There aren’t enough adjustors. The process takes
forever. And as I mentioned earlier, some of those claims will end
up in court.
The BCPP idea of a parametric trigger is much better. Get the
money out the door as quickly as possible.
BCPP also specifies the benefits can only be used for items like
payroll and rent. You can argue that either way, but lawmakers
should understand that is not how business interruption usually
works. A business can make an interruption claim, and at the same
time, lay off all of its employees.
Another option is just to let the States create their own programs
and have Treasury partially reimburse them. An upside to that is
you wouldn’t have the run-on-the-bank danger that PRIA poses.
Above all, my recommendation is to take your time. Ad hoc solu-
tions might be as good as it gets. Get help to the businesses, work-
ers, and communities who need it right now. Don’t legislate for the
next pandemic while we are in the midst of the current one.
Thank you, and I would be happy to answer any questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Lehmann can be found on page
109 of the appendix.]
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. Lehmann.
And Mr. Kuhlmann, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF BRIAN KUHLMANN, CHIEF CORPORATE COUN-
SEL, SHELTER INSURANCE, ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN
PROPERTY CASUALTY INSURANCE ASSOCIATION (APCIA)
AND THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MUTUAL INSURANCE
COMPANIES (NAMIC)
Mr. KUHLMANN. Thank you, Chairman Clay, Ranking Member
Stivers, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the op-
portunity to be here today.
My name is Brian Kuhlmann, and I am the senior corporate
counsel for Shelter Insurance Companies. Shelter is a mutual com-
pany that is headquartered in Columbia, Missouri. It was founded
in 1946 primarily to serve the insurance needs of Missouri farmers.
And our success has enabled us to grow into a company that now
writes auto, property, business, and life insurance in 21 States and
even conducts business internationally.
I am here today on behalf of the American Property Casualty In-
surance Association, APCIA, and the National Association of Mu-
tual Insurance Companies, NAMIC, which together represent more
than 90 percent of home, auto, and business insurers in the coun-
try.
When the COVID-19 pandemic first hit earlier this year, Shelter
took prompt and strong action to serve the needs of our policy-
holders. As a mutual company, we exist because of our policy-
holders who have put their faith in us and expect us to be there
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14
when they have a claim. Since March, we have provided premium
relief, liberalized grace periods, and worked with policyholders on
a case-by-case basis to help them through their current financial
challenges.
Additionally, the Shelter Foundation is offering each of our 1,400
agents $1,000 to designate for a charity in their area working to
respond to local COVID-19 needs.
Shelter is known for doing the right thing and we will continue
to respond to this rapidly evolving situation. We will continue to
do the right thing by our policyholders, our agents, and our em-
ployees.
Our business is to help provide consumers with peace of mind by
developing risk solutions. As this committee and Congress go about
the important work ahead of planning for future pandemics, how-
ever, it is imperative that we understand a core principle: Not
every risk is insurable.
The reality is that insurers and insurance regulators across the
country understand that the global pandemic risk is generally un-
insurable in the private market. This was true before COVID-19,
and it will be true after COVID-19, for a number of reasons, includ-
ing that it is impossible to diversify pandemic risk and to spread
losses across different groups, which is a fundamental tenet of in-
surance.
COVID-19 is affecting tens of millions of businesses simulta-
neously, and the number of businesses in need of protection greatly
exceeds the capacity of the insurance industry to provide that pro-
tection.
Understanding that global pandemics are uninsurable, an alter-
native mechanism will be necessary to protect businesses from fu-
ture pandemics. Whatever that mechanism looks like, it should be
focused on providing real, efficient, and effective financial assist-
ance to all American businesses and nonprofits.
Our industry believes that our risk expertise and infrastructure
can help with pandemic solutions, even if we cannot shoulder the
direct financial burden of the pandemic losses. To that end, we
have studied relevant catastrophic protection models, met with
many stakeholders and businesses, and put together a proposal
called the Business Continuity Protection Program, or the BCPP.
Modeled loosely after the War Damages Insurance Corporation
created by Congress during World War II, the BCPP would provide
a straightforward revenue-replacement solution for businesses and
nonprofits of all sizes. The BCPP would set up a program in the
U.S. Treasury to administer a federally subsidized revenue replace-
ment product available to any business or nonprofit in the United
States.
America’s small businesses could access the product through a
simple application to purchase up to 3 months of up to 80 percent
revenue replacement distributed through licensed insurance profes-
sionals. Businesses could then use these funds to pay salaries, rent,
and other operating costs during the pandemic.
A parametric trigger mechanism would eliminate the friction to
ensure a quick automated relief upon the occurrence of conditions
established in advance. This process would put cash in the hands
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15
of businesses immediately, avoiding a long, detailed coverage anal-
ysis or complex claims adjustment procedures.
Responding directly to stakeholder feedback, the BCPP also con-
templates an excess program, an event cancellation provision for
customers who seek this additional protection or are in need of
more specialized coverages.
Most importantly, the BCPP is also the current proposal that
would be most affordable for America’s small businesses. Even with
a Federal backstop, coverage under the other proposals would like-
ly be far more expensive than most businesses can afford. Because
pricing for the BCPP product would be federally subsidized, the
cost could be made more affordable than the other proposed pro-
grams, thus encouraging a high take-up rate, which is essential for
preserving the broader economy during a crisis.
APCIA and NAMIC are appreciative of the ideas and the pro-
posals that have been brought forward by congressional leaders
and the business community to address the pandemic risk chal-
lenges. We are committed to working with you on solutions that
can provide the effective and affordable protection.
Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Kuhlmann can be found on page
100 of the appendix.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Kuhlmann.
And let me thank all of the witnesses today for their testimony.
We will now move to the questioning of witnesses, and I recog-
nize myself for 5 minutes.
According to the National Association of Insurance Commis-
sioners (NAIC), over 184,000 business interruption claims have
been made during the COVID-19 pandemic and less than 1 percent
of these claims have been paid out.
I would make the point that to own and operate a business in
this country, you should not need a battalion of insurance lawyers
at your side to understand and make claims on your policy, if nec-
essary. And most business owners are not experts on business
interruption insurance exclusions and other obtuse language that
is frustrating to understand, especially when you are trying to pay
your staff, deal with payroll taxes, and protect against other poten-
tial liabilities.
Ms. Cantrell, this is for you. Can you please share for us the pol-
icyholder’s perspective here? What kind of toll has this pandemic
had on businesses like your own, especially the many businesses
who believed they had policies that would protect them?
Ms. CANTRELL. Yes. Thank you very much.
Many of my colleagues, quite honestly, have closed their busi-
nesses, not able to survive, and this is devastating in so many
ways. One colleague had 34 people working for her. Another has
been in business for 18 years. It has been stressful all around in
just trying to figure out what our next moves will be. It has been
devastating.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you for that response.
And, Mr. Kuhlmann, after the terrorist attacks of September 11,
2001, lenders would not support major construction projects with-
out first guaranteeing that the project had terrorism insurance,
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16
which at the time was virtually unavailable or extremely
unaffordable.
Congress responded by passing the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act
(TRIA) in 2002. Today, we are considering the Pandemic Risk In-
surance Act (PRIA), which is based largely on TRIA. Although the
cost to insurers of a terrorism event is immense, the scale of a pan-
demic is even bigger.
Mr. Kuhlmann, are pandemics and terrorism events comparable
enough such that a TRIA model can be used to provide affordable
coverage for pandemics, too?
Mr. KUHLMANN. Thank you for your question, Mr. Chairman.
I don’t believe that it is an acceptable model. Terrorism risk is
by its very nature a very different risk than pandemic risk. The
terrorism risk is something that is localized, and the risk itself can
be spread out throughout the country, whereas the claims that are
paid out would be localized to one certain region.
A pandemic, on the other hand, is something that is occurring si-
multaneously across the country, with claims that would have to
be paid out simultaneously throughout the country. And it is just
a very different risk.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman CLAY. Let me follow up with that.
While largely successful, TRIA has faced criticism for relatively
low take-up rates among small businesses. In attempting to rep-
licate TRIA, the TRIA model for pandemics, is there a risk that we
are replicating the weaknesses as well?
Mr. KUHLMANN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I do believe that you would indeed exacerbate the problems that
you have outlined with TRIA. We don’t necessarily feel that all of
the criticisms of TRIA are warranted, but I think basing this on
a similar model would exacerbate that because of the inability to
spread the risk.
Chairman CLAY. And are there other ways to strengthen the
TRIA model if we are to use it for pandemics? Do you have any
thoughts on that?
Mr. KUHLMANN. I think the risk is, as I said, Mr. Chairman, it
is just a very different risk that I don’t think can be based off of
TRIA for this purpose. I think the product would be unaffordable,
too.
Thank you.
Chairman CLAY. Fair enough, and thank you.
And I now recognize the distinguished ranking member of the
subcommittee, Mr. Stivers, for 5 minutes.
Mr. STIVERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate those questions. I am going to step
back and look at the scope and scale of TRIA compared to PRIA,
the risks, because I think there are some big differences here. I
think it is hard to make the TRIA model work for a pandemic.
My first question is to Mr. Doyle. Mr. Doyle, thanks for being
here today.
With the current version of PRIA capping liability at $750 bil-
lion, assuming we have to shut down the United States economy
for 2 months—and many analysts have said it is about a trillion
dollars a month—assume it is a 2-month shutdown because of the
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17
next pandemic, anything above $750 billion, who would be respon-
sible for that? And how would that work? Because that is more
than the total reserves of the entire property and casualty indus-
try.
Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Congressman.
As you suggested in your opening remarks, as did the chairman,
we applaud Congresswoman Maloney for putting a proposal on the
table.
There is no question that it has limitations. And as some of my
fellow participants on this panel testifying before you today have
said, the economic consequences of a pandemic are quite different
or can be quite different than a terrorism event. So we would need
to find a way to scale up on that capacity, depending upon, again,
the overall ambitions of Congress.
Mr. STIVERS. Just for the record, wouldn’t it be true that above
that $750 billion limit, insurance companies would be on the hook
for it until they are completely broken and bankrupt?
Mr. DOYLE. I think that is right, Congressman, or they would be
reluctant to participate, presuming that it is voluntary participa-
tion.
Mr. STIVERS. Because of that, I think you will find almost no in-
surance companies that would be willing to participate in the cur-
rent model that we are talking about today of the draft legislation,
and I think that is sort of the key. And if people won’t participate,
it won’t work. So, I really appreciate that.
By the way, I appreciate our conversations when we have talked
about this, and I appreciate you taking a principles-based ap-
proach. I think we all need to take a step back, start with a prin-
ciples-based approach, and then sit down as a big group and figure
out a way forward on this. It may be an insurance-based approach,
or it may be another approach.
Frankly, I do like building private capacity, but I am troubled by
the fact that it is hard to make government takings an insurance
risk.
What we can do is cap the liability of each individual insurance
company at some small level and then grow it over time so it
doesn’t bankrupt anybody, but I don’t think we can truly make this
an insurable risk.
And I would like to ask Mr. Kuhlmann, do you believe there is
any way to make this an insurable risk?
Mr. KUHLMANN. Because of its very nature, I don’t believe it
could be, because of the fact that you would have this occurring at
tens of millions of businesses at the same time.
Mr. STIVERS. Okay. So assuming we can’t make it an insurable
risk, if we did use an insurance model, and every insurance com-
pany had an exact dollar stop-loss, how comforting would that be
to you, depending on, obviously, where that stop-loss is? And next,
we will talk about what that means to a Federal program.
Mr. KUHLMANN. Sure. I think, Congressman, that in using an in-
surance-based model, you also have to factor in the adjusting proc-
ess for that, and the cost and the time of the adjusting process for
that, and then the affordability.
Mr. STIVERS. If I can interrupt for a second, it is a parametric,
trigger-based approach, because in a pandemic, there is not time or
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scale for the adjustment process. So, assume for a second it is a
trigger-based parametric approach.
Mr. KUHLMANN. What I would be concerned about is if we look
at this current COVID pandemic, we have had wildfires in Colo-
rado, we have had a tornado in Arkansas, we have had hurricanes
in Louisiana. These are our policyholders that we are there for,
that we are paying out and taking care of, and to do that at the
same time with—
Mr. STIVERS. I only have a couple of seconds here, so I would like
to [inaudible] Interested in answering that.
Ms. McLaughlin, have you had conversations with your CEO [in-
audible] conversations with him about [inaudible] deeply important
part that is missing here?
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. I’m sorry, Ranking Member Stivers. I had a
hard time hearing your question.
Mr. STIVERS. Oh. I was asking if you had any conversations with
your CEO about event cancellation coverage?
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. About our event cancellation coverage? Cer-
tainly, our proposal really is trying cover Main Street America. So,
the proposal that we have put forward really doesn’t contemplate
event cancellations, but certainly it is a framework, sir, so we can
expand it as we see that it is needed in the future as well.
Mr. STIVERS. I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. The gentleman’s time has expired.
I now recognize the gentlewoman from New York, Ms. Velazquez,
who is also the Chair of the House Small Business Committee, for
5 minutes.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Cantrell, it is very nice to see you again.
Ms. Cantrell, I have been so concerned about the impact of
COVID-19, how it is impacting our nation’s small businesses, that
back in May we held a forum in my committee on business inter-
ruption.
I just would like to ask you, do you think that if we had had a
program in place like the one that we are discussing here today
under the Pandemic Risk Insurance Act, your business would be in
a stronger financial position and better prepared to withstand the
economic downturn caused by the pandemic?
Ms. CANTRELL. Absolutely. It would have been a game changer
for me and countless others in our community and around the
country, absolutely.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
Mr. Kuhlmann, since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic the in-
surance organizations that you are representing here today have
consistently maintained that pandemic business interruption is an
uninsurable risk. Instead, your organization has proposed the cre-
ation of the Business Continuity Protection Program.
First, can you explain why you believe pandemic business inter-
ruption is an insurable risk? And then, can you explain how the
Business Continuity Protection Program will work?
Mr. KUHLMANN. Sure. Thank you, Congresswoman.
As I have said previously, I think it is an uninsurable risk, cer-
tainly for small and medium-sized insurers such as Shelter, where
you would have millions of claims all at the same time throughout
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the entire country. It is just something that would not be an insur-
able risk for us and I don’t think, quite frankly, for most compa-
nies.
But I think the BCPP that we have proposed would be a program
that would have a parametric trigger where, because it is a Federal
program and it would be subsidized by the Federal Government,
there would be premiums that would be paid, but they would be
affordable for small businesses, for nonprofits throughout the coun-
try, and it would be delivered through the agency network that is
currently out there and highly regulated by the States. People
would be able to purchase up to 80 percent of their lost revenue
for up to 90 days. And I think it would be very good.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. I just have one other question.
Mr. Doyle, Marsh was one of the first companies to advocate for
the creation of a public-private pandemic risk solution.
First, how would you respond to what Mr. Kuhlmann just said?
And second, can you explain why Marsh believes that if the right
incentives are created, insurance companies will be able to serve
their traditional function of mitigating risk?
Mr. DOYLE. Thank you very much for the question.
I recognize that it is complex. I recognize that it is a unique cat
risk. We have talked about the lack of diversification a bit, but we
have many clients just like Ms. Cantrell’s business who are suf-
fering and are under great distress at the moment, and they need
to us tackle hard at the moment, which is why we are here.
I fundamentally believe in the social benefits of insurance. We
will be able to, if we structure the program in the right way, invest
in new technologies, and better collect and manage data to build
models and new ways of working.
I am right now sitting in my office in New York City, in Mid-
town, Manhattan. My experience coming to work today was very
different than my experience was on March 12th. And so, we need
to begin those steps to harden infrastructure and to bend the risk
curve for the next pandemic.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Ms. Velazquez.
And now, I recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Posey, for
5 minutes.
Mr. POSEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Rank-
ing Member, for holding this meeting today.
I appreciate the well-intended efforts of the sponsor to help small
businesses, but I am afraid essentially what we have here is a pro-
posal for another government program that will try to do what the
market won’t do on its own without subsidies. We are being asked
to underwrite a government program to insure business losses and
do so at premiums that cannot possibly actuarially cover the pay-
outs for such losses.
Mr. Lehmann, from a social policy point of view, is there any eco-
nomic justification to subsidize insurance for business interruptions
due to a pandemic but not to do so for interruptions due to a finan-
cial crisis, such as the one we had in 2008?
Mr. LEHMANN. That would be a difficult distinction to make. I
can see in both cases why there is a role for government to provide
assistance. Whether there is a need to create an insurance pro-
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gram, and whether an insurance program is the best way to spend
$750 billion, is less clear to me particularly when, as I mentioned
earlier, only a minority of businesses have business interruption. If
you don’t have a business interruption policy—and if you do not
own your property, you often will not have a business interruption
policy—then you would not possibly benefit from this program.
Could that $750 billion be better spent in directly aiding busi-
nesses? I think it’s likely, and I especially think, let’s get to that.
Let’s get through this pandemic first, provide the help that we need
today, and then we can get to the point where we can ask that
question about future pandemics.
Mr. POSEY. Thank you for the very complete but concise com-
ments.
Mr. Kuhlmann, we hear about flaws in proposals that are mod-
eled after the Terrorism Risk Insurance Program. I voted for a
long-term TRIA reauthorization last year since it fills a critical role
in the terrorism insurance market. But in this case, there is no ex-
isting market for pandemic insurance that has failed as it had be-
fore the creation of TRIA, and it is obvious to me that we can’t try
to force something that is uninsurable, like pandemic risk, into a
terrorism model. I think that it just simply won’t work, and we will
need to lower insurer and business participation due to incredibly
high costs that come with trying to tie pandemic coverage to a risk-
based pricing system.
Mr. Kuhlmann, can you elaborate on this point a little bit?
Mr. KUHLMANN. Absolutely. I think that is exactly the point that
we would make, is that I think that trying to either force the cov-
erage onto companies or even if you make it voluntary, you would
have not a great takeup among insurance companies. And even
then, it would be unaffordable unless taken up among insureds
themselves, and I think it would then become even more expensive
with less participation.
Mr. POSEY. Thank you.
Now, back to Mr. Lehmann. We have various models for dealing
with greater risk in this country now. For example, the National
Flood Insurance Program (NFIP), another heavily subsidized pro-
gram, and the entire range of programs under the Disaster Relief
Fund, provide a form of insurance for rare events like floods, hurri-
canes, and earthquakes.
The government is, in this case, the insurer of last resort, so to
speak. Rather than creating an insurance program that is designed
by captives and has associated moral hazard, we could integrate
business loss assistance into the Stafford Act, along with cost shar-
ing. Wouldn’t that be just as effective as a subsidized insurance
program like TRIA to provide us greater control and also achieve
integration with the FEMA programs that are addressing the cur-
rent pandemic? I just would appreciate your thoughts on that.
Mr. LEHMANN. A good argument could be made that the pan-
demic is more like a public catastrophe than it is like an economic
assistance program, and so some versions of the BCPP over its
drafting, I know, considered something like that. I think the Staf-
ford Act is a way to at least respond to sort of the public closures,
like that piece of it where you have a public health authority that
orders closures. That is a public responsibility and [inaudible] In
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reimbursing people to comply with taking makes good economic
sense.
Mr. POSEY. Thank you.
We often hear arguments that insurance, if it is actuarially and
physically sound, helps a firm make—excuse me, my time is up.
Chairman CLAY. The gentleman’s time has expired. And I am
going to—because of the large list of Members who are waiting to
ask questions, I am going to have to ask you to not ask that ques-
tion. I’m sorry, Mr. Posey.
Will you yield back?
Mr. POSEY. Certainly.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Posey.
At this time, we will now go to the gentleman from Missouri, Mr.
Cleaver, for 5 minutes.
Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding
this hearing.
It is extremely important that we deal with this issue. And what
I want to focus on is—I understand the varying PRIA program pro-
posals that have been offered, which involves the retention of some
amount of risk by private insurers for different types of business
interruption insurance vehicles depending, of course, upon the size
of the policyholder.
I would like to engage our panel just for a bit on this issue, and
I want to specifically talk about the risk tolerance of the private
sector before it makes sense for the Federal Government to inter-
vene. So I would like for the witnesses, if you would, to discuss the
broad tolerance of the insurance market under various adverse sit-
uations.
Is the Federal Insurance Office (FIO) or any other independent
analytical body effectively evaluating this question? And, if so,
when can we expect some data? Aren’t we just kind of outblowing
in the wind right now?
Any of the panelists, please?
Mr. LEHMANN. Congressman, I am not aware of FIO conducting
any [inaudible] on this question yet. FIO, I would imagine, is cur-
rently in transition, and we will see if they do take—I do think
that it would be wise to direct FIO to examine the question of
availability of coverage for business interruption and other cov-
erages. Business interruption is not the only insurance coverage
that has been hit by the pandemic. Workers’ compensation, many
liability claims, those are different things that need to be looked at
as well.
Mr. CLEAVER. We are dealing with an extremely important pro-
gram, and as far as I know, we are dealing with it without the
data.
Mr. LEHMANN. I do believe the ICLE has had some data calls.
I think some of the other witnesses might be able to speak to that.
Mr. CLEAVER. Yes, please. Any other witnesses, please speak to
it.
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. Congressman, this is Michelle McLaughlin
from Chubb. At Chubb, we have been designing our program and
we have the data for our own company, obviously. And what we are
looking to do is create a program where insurers can have some
skin in the game here, but with guardrails. So really our program,
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if you’ve seen from a small business standpoint, is to limit the ex-
posure by the insurance carriers market share so we have a finite
exposure and then charge actuarially sound rates to those carriers
only for the insurer’s portion so that it is affordable for those small
businesses.
Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you very much.
On June 22nd, I sent a letter to the Department of the Treas-
ury’s Federal Insurance Office (FIO) asking them to work in coordi-
nation with the industry and relevant stakeholders in providing an
assessment of the pandemic insurance landscape, as well as any ef-
forts on the way at FIO to address possible shortcomings. This is
the United States Congress, this is an important issue, and I think
we need to have the data that everyone is dealing with, so that ev-
eryone can at least understand its parameters.
And right now, let’s just say this is a big deal, but if we have
to vote on something today, we would be voting in ignorance. We
have no data. And I just don’t think that with an issue like this,
as significant as it is, that we would wade into the water without
having an organized system of presenting data.
Am I wrong on this? You can tell me that I am wrong. It’s okay.
My wife says it.
Mr. LEHMANN. I think you are absolutely right, Congressman.
Mr. CLEAVER. Any other witnesses?
What does the silence mean?
Mr. KUHLMANN. I think we would support you getting that infor-
mation certainly, and I believe that the NAIC is also looking at try-
ing to gather some data. So, yes, we would support getting any
data that we can to review that.
Thank you, Congressman.
Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. You are very welcome, and I am sure your wife
is not fearful of telling you the truth. Thank you to my friend from
Missouri.
At this time, we will now go to the gentleman from New York,
Mr. Zeldin, for 5 minutes.
Mr. ZELDIN. Thank you Chairman Clay and Ranking Member
Stivers for holding this hearing today. And thank you to the wit-
nesses for being here.
I represent New York’s First Congressional District, which was
one of the areas first and hardest hit by COVID-19. Long Islanders
are tough and have found ways to adapt to the pandemic, but
many businesses in my district are facing difficult decisions as we
reach the colder months in New York. Restaurants, gyms, and
other small businesses are once again facing increased restrictions
on how and when they can operate.
Congress did a great job coming together, not as Republicans or
Democrats, but as Americans, when we passed the CARES Act,
which enacted the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) to provide
needed liquidity for our small businesses. It is vital that Congress
comes together again and passes another round of PPP funding to
help businesses weather any government-placed restrictions. It is
also important that we start thinking about ways to have liquidity
measures ready and in place to assist small businesses with any
potential future pandemics.
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I am grateful that Representative Maloney, a fellow New Yorker
with whom I worked to reauthorize TRIA, has started an important
conversation about how to be more proactive for future pandemics.
However, I want to dig a little deeper into whether an insurance
product makes the most sense or if there are other potential solu-
tions that would provide liquidity more efficiently to Long Island
small businesses.
Mr. Kuhlmann, one thing we learned from this crisis is the im-
portance of getting cash quickly to small businesses that are forced
to shut down through no fault of their own. Can you talk a little
about the difficulties of using a business interruption insurance
product and that claims process during an pandemic?
Mr. KUHLMANN. Absolutely. Thank you, Congressman. Yes, using
a claims-based process would—you would have to have specialized
adjusters who are handling these claims, and it is almost a form
of forensic accounting that is necessary to be able to evaluate the
claims. And even doing that as efficiently and quickly as possible,
it is still going to be not as timely as it is going to be needed in
a situation like a pandemic. And it is also very expensive, which
will add to the premiums.
Mr. ZELDIN. Is there a more efficient way to provide liquidity
quickly to businesses that is not business interruption insurance?
Mr. KUHLMANN. Well, certainly, we feel that the BCPP would be
a way with the parametric trigger that would be able to almost im-
mediately get funds into the hands of the policyholders in that re-
gard.
Mr. ZELDIN. Ms. McLaughlin, pivoting slightly, business inter-
ruption insurance is a product that can be triggered by physical
damage to property. However, there are other specialized insurance
products out there, like production insurance or event cancellation
insurance, that are critical for financing film productions, sport
events, and other live events.
Is there a role for the Federal Government to play in helping
these markets regain insurance coverage?
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. Thank you, Congressman. Really, the proposal
that we have put forth is meant to address Main Street America,
but certainly we think we have created a framework that, once we
have all of the elements combined together, we can expand that to
include future types of coverage like you mentioned here today.
Mr. ZELDIN. Mr. Lehmann, after 9/11, construction halted in New
York City because lenders did not want to extend credit without
protecting the underlying collateral from a future terrorist attack.
Congress correctly responded with TRIA to make sure that lending
and financing for New York City’s recovery would be strong. Many
of our nation’s lenders have stepped up and provided forbearance
to help businesses that do not have the cash flow to meet scheduled
debt payments, but this is unsustainable in the long term, and a
proactive solution would be preferable.
Whether or not an insurance product is the best method, do you
foresee market forces leading to a necessity in creating proactive
solutions to provide liquidity to small businesses during a pan-
demic so that these loans are safer and sounder?
Mr. LEHMANN. It is possible. I am a bit skeptical of that, because
in the case of terrorism, the insurance market pulls back coverage
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that had previously existed. They introduced exclusions that
weren’t there before. That is not the situation we are facing here.
No business had—or very, very few businesses had coverage for a
pandemic before COVID. Lenders have been providing their lend-
ing all along. I don’t imagine lenders are going to ask for an insur-
ance product that does not exist. I think lenders still want to do
business, and they are not going to foreclose, there is no market
for [inaudible].
Mr. ZELDIN. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Zeldin.
At this time, I recognize the gentlewoman from Ohio, Mrs.
Beatty, who is also the Chair of our Diversity and Inclusion Sub-
committee.
Is Mrs. Beatty there? If not, we will come back to Mrs. Beatty.
And I will now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green,
who is also the Chair of our Oversight and Investigations Sub-
committee, for 5 minutes.
Mr. GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.
And I thank the ranking member and the chairwoman of the Full
Committee as well.
Ms. Cantrell, your testimony was quite moving, to be very candid
with you. I recorded one phrase that you used. You indicated that
you were experiencing the darkest days of your life, and that
caused me a lot of concern. Because if I multiply this by all of the
many persons who were in similar situations, it means that there
was a lot of hurt and a lot of pain, obviously.
And for me, as I reviewed this, it is about individual businesses.
I have a statement from the staff indicating that losses just for
businesses with under 100 employees during the pandemic in the
spring were as much as $431 billion per month. It says to me that
this is really about the economy. Small businesses make up the
economy. And I would like to see us arrive at a solution, if at all
possible, honestly, because the economy impacts everybody, not just
the individual businesses. So I would like to see a solution, and I
am willing to work across the aisle to try to accomplish such a so-
lution.
But, Ms. Cantrell, I do want to ask you about something related
to policies in general. Were you of the opinion that you had cov-
erage for a pandemic at the time you were experiencing these dark
moments in your life?
Ms. CANTRELL. Yes. Thank you very much for your question.
And, yes, when I had been paying into insurance, I thought I was
covered for all situations. I never thought of—there are many
things, I am sure, that insurance companies think of, that I as a
business owner would not think of. I guess that was one of them.
But I certainly absolutely thought I was covered.
And the main topic with all of my colleagues when we speak
daily and for those months, those really dark times—we are still
in them—was about how we are going to pay employees, payroll
protection, getting that, and insurance as well. And many of us
spoke about how we had been paying in for years into something
that wasn’t going to help us now.
Mr. GREEN. Well, that is a concern that I have, and your testi-
mony really sparked this interest. And I have spoken to staff mem-
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bers since you made that comment because of how it has impacted
my thought processes.
Would it have been beneficial to you, ma’am, to have had a no-
tice, some disclosure that was clear and concise such that you
would know what you were buying? Do you think that, had you
known, while it may have been difficult for you, it would have been
something that you had an expectation otherwise for? For example,
you wouldn’t have thought that you would have the coverage that
you didn’t have, so you wouldn’t have had that expectation. Be-
cause I am sure that was quite a letdown for you when you found
out.
So, would disclosure have at least helped you to some extent or
caused you perhaps to decide that you needed to look elsewhere for
some insurance for that kind of coverage? Would disclosure have
helped you?
Ms. CANTRELL. I understand what you are saying. I think hind-
sight is 20/20. I certainly will be more—whether it is my lease,
whether it is my insurance, there are so many things that the pan-
demic has opened up about what I need to ask for going forward.
I am hoping that the government helps in some ways with some
of those things.
Would it have helped? I wouldn’t have known to ask for it. Now,
like I said, I certainly would have. I think that there was so much
uncertainty. There still is so much uncertainty and so much hope
about that things would be—
Mr. GREEN. My time is kind of limited. Let me just—forgive me
for interrupting. But what I am trying to get at is, would it be ben-
eficial for me to work with staff on some sort of disclosure so that
you won’t feel like you paid all of these many years only to find
out that you don’t have what you thought you were purchasing?
And if that disclosure is beneficial, then I am going to look into de-
veloping such a thing for you and others.
Ms. CANTRELL. I think disclosure would be great. I don’t know
how many business people are reading every fine line of everything
to know what is and what is not covered. When I talked to my in-
surance agent, and he said this will cover you in all situations, that
is what I listened to.
Mr. GREEN. My time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I read my policy once, and I hope I never have to read it again.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. Green.
And now, the gentleman from Tennessee, Representative Kustoff,
is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Chairman Clay. Thank you for con-
vening today’s hearing, and thank you to the ranking member. And
I would also like to thank the witnesses who are appearing vir-
tually today.
Ms. Cantrell, if I could, if you are still on—okay, you are still
on—I want to echo what Congressman Green said about your testi-
mony. I find it compelling. I think everybody who listened to it
found it compelling, and we probably all have constituents in our
districts from whom we have heard the same or similar stories.
My question to you, kind of following up on what Congressman
Green was asking you is, if PRIA was in existence or if you had
the coverage you thought that you had or the Business Continuity
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Protection Program was in existence, and you had to litigate your
claim, what would the effect be to your business?
Ms. CANTRELL. I’m sorry, if I took legal action against my insur-
ance company?
Mr. KUSTOFF. If you thought you had—if the coverage did, in fact
exist, but you had to litigate, what would the effect be on your
business?
Ms. CANTRELL. Quite honestly, I don’t have those resources to
take on an insurance company. And having talked to my insurance
company since this time too, he made some point about that if in
good faith, if we don’t try to work things out with our insurance
company, then my coverage would cease as well. So, it never oc-
curred to me for litigation. That is not in my mindset, and I didn’t
really think—David/Goliath—didn’t really think it was going to
work in my favor.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Same question, if you didn’t have to litigate but it
took, say, 6 months for you to get your claim paid, what would the
effect be to your business?
Ms. CANTRELL. If I knew there was hope coming—I felt that way
with the PPP, and then that was something that could be really
helpful and supportive and keep us going. I can’t speak for others,
but I would think that knowing relief was coming would be helpful.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Fair statement. Though, if you knew that it would
take 12 months for your claim to be paid, it would have a detri-
mental effect on your business, wouldn’t it?
Ms. CANTRELL. Twelve months is a devastating amount of time
when your rent is very high, and health insurance and payroll
costs.
Mr. KUSTOFF. I guess my point is, you would really need that
claim to be paid in a fairly quick manner in order to be helpful to
your business, correct?
Ms. CANTRELL. Absolutely.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you very much.
Mr. Lehmann, the way you look at and read PRIA, the way it
is drafted now, is there any prohibition for a policyholder, if PRIA
did exist, to receive a payment to have their claim paid and then
at some point in the relatively short-term future lay off all of their
employees?
Mr. LEHMANN. No, That wouldn’t be unusual. The insurance con-
tract could specifically be insuring payroll, but that is going to de-
pend on the contract between the insurer and the insured. The gov-
ernment is not involved in that process, and PRIA, from what I see,
does not propose anything that would limit that from happening.
Mr. KUSTOFF. And, Mr. Lehmann, if PRIA did exist the way it
is drafted now, a claim was paid, and then the employees were laid
off, what would the effect be on the economy?
Mr. LEHMANN. Generally speaking, the thing that we care about
are these relationships, relationships between employers and em-
ployees, relationships between businesses and customers. The
whole goal of PPP was sort of to put all of these businesses into
like an induced coma so that we could tackle the virus, then bring
them back and hope everything comes back to normal. And it may
not, in many cases, come back to normal, but that is how that was
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structured. I think that is a good structure. Insurance is not quite
structured the same way.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Along those lines, if PRIA were created, can you
talk about what the challenges would be in establishing and run-
ning a new permanent Federal program designed to affect pan-
demic-related losses?
Mr. LEHMANN. Pandemic losses can be pretty—like TRIA has the
certification requirement from Treasury. PRIA—public health is a
local matter, for the most part. Determining businesses that cross
different jurisdictions, some pieces of the business may be in a pub-
lic health zone and some pieces not. That is going to take quite a
bit of work.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Lehmann.
And I have 19 seconds left, so I will yield back my time. Thank
you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. Kustoff.
I wanted to now go to the gentlewoman who is the Chair of the
House Oversight and Reform Committee, as well as the person who
brought this issue to the subcommittee’s attention, my friend,
Carolyn Maloney of New York. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chairman Clay.
And let me express how much I have enjoyed working with you
over the years and how sad I am that you will not be returning.
I want to thank you for this hearing, and for your decades of work
to help so many people. I also want to thank the ranking member
and all of our panelists who are here today.
I would like to ask Mr. Doyle, the CEO of Marsh—which, inci-
dentally, was the only company that could insure New York with-
out PRIA, along with Lloyd’s of London, during that time. We all
recognize that pandemics are unique and the economic effects of
pandemics can be devastating. A broad consensus has emerged,
supported by research from your company and proposals like
Chubb’s, that pandemic risk is insurable with an appropriate Fed-
eral backstop.
I want, first, to thank Marsh for all of the research that you pro-
vided on this issue, and I hope you can make it available to all of
us. But I would like to ask you, can you explain why any Federal
program must include a Federal backstop? And also, if you could
talk about being able to insure pandemic risk? A number of panel-
ists have said that they believe pandemic risk is totally not insur-
able. Your comments on that?
And, again, thank you for your research, and we look forward to
hearing your comments.
Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Congresswoman. My connection was poor
before, so I didn’t hear a few of the prior questions from the com-
mittee, so apologies. But I could hear you clearly, and thank you
again for your leadership on this issue.
Again, pandemics are global by nature. They lack diversification.
And so, unlike other cat risks, diversification is a fundamental part
of insurance. And so, the economic consequences are too severe and
beyond the risk-bearing capacity of insurers to ultimately bear.
Many insurers have come forward and we have had very con-
structive dialogues. Of course, Ms. McLaughlin from Chubb on the
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panel here today being an important voice, so many believe that
the industry has a big role to play.
And I would also submit that, with all due respect, shutting
down businesses or putting businesses in a coma is not an ideal fu-
ture state. We ought to be looking to ultimately change the out-
come of the next pandemic.
Mrs. MALONEY. I wasn’t able to hear his response, so I am going
to ask to get that response in writing for the question that I asked.
I know my time is almost up.
I want to ask Ms. McLaughlin, my bill would require insurers to
share the risk with the Federal Government. Chubb’s CEO has
said that he believes the industry, ‘‘does have the wherewithal to
take risk here,’’ while your COO said it was, ‘‘a mistake for insur-
ers to think they could not insure this risk at all.’’ And Chubb is
not alone. Other leaders have come out and said that they support
it.
Can you explain why risk sharing is possible and necessary for
any Federal program?
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. Thank you, Congresswoman, and thank you
for your leadership on this as well. Chubb feels it is very important
for the industry to participate in the solutions. By playing a risk-
sharing role, because of the industry’s knowledge and experience,
can help drive better behaviors. We really feel the industry needs
to have some skin in the game here. Our involvement in a public-
private partnership with the Federal Government will lead to a
better understanding of pandemic risks and incentivize and im-
prove risk mitigation and preparedness.
A solution that commits insurance industry capital also provides
an opportunity for increased risk sharing over time as direct and
secondary markets develop, thus helping reduce the government’s
financial burden in the future.
Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you so much.
And, Ms. Cantrell, thank you for your work in small business.
How would pandemic risk insurance improve your business’ ability
to survive a pandemic?
Ms. CANTRELL. Thank you so much. Yes. Every other store that
I see when I am out right now has a for-rent sign on it, so, me and
so many others would really have so much hope and financial sta-
bility for the future.
Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you.
And I just want to say that small businesses across the country
have closed their doors forever. Professionals, like the 2,200 organi-
zations that signed the American Society of Association Executives’
letter in support of my bill, have canceled their annual events that
provide the bulk of their funding without any event cancellation in-
surance. And despite what some have said earlier, this is included
in my bill to cover [inaudible] related losses. And I just wanted to
get that to correct the record.
But also to emphasize again, Mr. Chairman, this is just a mark-
er. This is just a proposal, a draft, shall we say, to be improved
upon. It is not the end game. It is easier to work off of a draft than
to just go to a hearing without anything of a point of reference to
build on. So, I just want to say that I am open to all suggestions.
Thank you. I yield back. Thank you again.
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Chairman CLAY. You are very welcome. We thank you for that
perspective, that it is just a marker. I appreciate hearing that.
At this time, the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Rose, is recog-
nized for 5 minutes.
Mr. ROSE. Thank you, Chairman Clay and Ranking Member
Stivers, for holding this important hearing. I know we have been
trying to hold this hearing since June, so I am glad we can discuss
this important issue here today.
The COVID-19 pandemic has devastated businesses nationwide.
The government-mandated shutdown led to massive furloughs, lay-
offs, and closures. Programs like the Paycheck Protection Program
made it so that businesses across the country, including in my
home State, could keep their doors open and their employees on the
payroll. This program was critical because it, in nearly all in-
stances, the financial losses our businesses faced were not covered
by insurance, as we all know.
As we begin to consider legislation to combat this issue in the fu-
ture, I believe any legislation this committee approves must have
a bipartisan consensus. It should include input from all stake-
holders and require voluntary participation.
The legislation attached to this hearing to date fails to pass that
test, but I do appreciate both the chairman and the bill sponsor,
Mrs. Maloney, for recognizing this bill as a starting point and being
willing to work across the aisle for a solution.
There are many alternative solutions that have both their advan-
tages and disadvantages and are worthy of further consideration as
we seek bipartisan consensus, and I look forward to furthering that
discussion today.
The Pandemic Risk Insurance Act would require participating in-
surers to offer pandemic risk coverage as part of their business
interruption policies. Setting aside whether the mechanics of PRIA
would even work, this structure could lead to incredibly high cost
of coverage.
Mr. Lehmann, what would happen if insurers largely declined to
participate in the program?
Mr. LEHMANN. To answer the first part of the question, I don’t
believe that it actually does require the insurers to make the offer,
but they have the option to participate in the program. I don’t
imagine many traditional property and casualty insurers would be
interested in participating. The administrative costs would be pret-
ty large. There is not much of their own capital that is going to be
contributed. They are only retaining 5 percent. But if the program
is exhausted, if the $750 billion is exhausted, given the size of
these sorts of events, they could be on the hook for money over that
cap, and it is unclear how that would work out.
I think it will largely be of interest to the specialty operators,
like captives and risk retention groups, that will largely serve indi-
vidual policyholders, large companies, some governments, and so
forth. And that is what we see in TRIA as well, that a good portion
of the TRIA backstop is ultimately close to captive.
Mr. ROSE. What would happen if insurers who did choose to par-
ticipate in the program made coverage essentially unaffordable for
most small businesses?
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Mr. LEHMANN. Given the cost of administering it, it probably
would be pretty expensive, even without the insurer’s own capital
on the underwriting side. It is difficult to know what this would
look like. If it were more—if it were risk-based, you would expect
businesses that have indoor dining and those sorts of things, any-
thing where there is person-to-person interaction would have more
expensive coverage, and they would probably not opt to buy it. Be-
cause if you are a small business, that would be quite a bit. And
you would, as you did before this pandemic, take the risk that it
is not going to happen. Usually it won’t, but once in a hundred
years.
Mr. ROSE. Mr. Lehmann, you have pointed out that the general
difficulties of using insurance as a tool for spreading risk in a pan-
demic event, several of the proposals being discussed in the hearing
today, including PRIA, follow the insurance model.
Mr. LEHMANN. Yes.
Mr. ROSE. Would you explain to the committee why the insur-
ance model would not be an efficient and effective way to get aid
to businesses?
Mr. LEHMANN. The first part is just takeup. As I mentioned, only
about a third of businesses have business interruption insurance,
which means most businesses would not be affected by that.
The other side of it is that a lot of the loss is not an insurance
claim. Most of the lockdowns were lifted in this country in Sep-
tember. Ask businesses if they thought business was normal. It ob-
viously wasn’t. It wasn’t the shutdown that caused the loss; it was
the pandemic. And there is no cognizable insurance claim for,
‘‘business is bad.’’ There is no business-is-bad insurance.
Mr. ROSE. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I see that my time has expired.
I think what we have learned today is that this hearing is an im-
portant first step to solving this complicated issue, and I look for-
ward to working with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to
find a solution. And I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Rose. I couldn’t agree with you
more.
At this time, I think I saw the gentlewoman from Ohio, Mrs.
Beatty, on.
Mrs. Beatty, are you still on?
Okay. Apparently, she is not there. So, we will now recognize the
gentleman from Washington State, Mr. Heck, for 5 minutes.
Mr. HECK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am not going to take that much time. I actually don’t have a
question, just a couple of quick comments I would like to make, sir,
the first of which is to thank the panelists very much. This is a
profoundly interesting and important conversation. It is, of course,
focused on prospective approaches to deal with what we are experi-
encing right now, but it does serve as an opportunity to underscore
the severity and the circumstance we are in, and I don’t think it
can be exaggerated or repeated too often.
American families and businesses are hurting on an unprece-
dented scale. The fact is that what we have done in the past in the
form of PPP and unemployment extension, these have run out.
Businesses have—as my father used to say—eaten their seed corn,
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and they are on the brink of wholesale bankruptcies. And it is in-
cumbent upon this Congress to act, to figure out a way to get to
yes, especially as we head into the teeth of this frightening spike
in the spread of COVID, even among our colleagues. We have to
figure out a way to act.
And the second comment I want to make, under a point of per-
sonal privilege, is to express to you, Mr. Chairman, how much I
have enjoyed and appreciated serving with you. I wish you all the
best going forward, sir. I cannot exaggerate my gratitude for the
collaboration we have experienced over 8 years, especially of late,
your leadership on housing issues and, frankly, Mr. Chairman,
your friendship. I wish you Godspeed.
And with that, sir, I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much. That is so kind.
Let me now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Steil.
Mr. STEIL. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much, and thank you
for having today’s hearing.
I want to dive in on a couple of specific questions. Mr. Lehmann,
I am going to direct them at you if I can. One of the things I think
we haven’t really hit on here in this discussion is that historically,
our insurance markets are regulated at the State level. State insur-
ance regulators are really required, and we rely on them, to make
sure that insurance policies are solvent. Kind of think back to-
wards SARS, when some of these pandemics came on line, people
became concerned.
We have 50 States. Is it, to your knowledge, that all 50 States
have allowed exclusions for pandemics in their policies to maintain
solvency?
Mr. LEHMANN. Yes. The viral exclusion does date to SARS and
was promulgated by the International Organization for Standard-
ization (ISO), which is the standard-setting organization for a lot
of policy language, and that—
Mr. STEIL. Cognizant of time.
Mr. LEHMANN. Sure.
Mr. STEIL. But big picture, we have 50 different State regulators.
All 50 State regulators across the country reached the same conclu-
sion, to your knowledge, on that?
Mr. LEHMANN. Yes.
Mr. STEIL. So then, what we are looking at is, what would be the
demand for this? We have a lot of conversations comparing TRIA
to PRIA. Under TRIA, we have 9/11. We have a lot of bank loan
covenants that are coming online, demanding terrorism risk cov-
erage. The free market is not providing that. Congress is called to
act to address a real market demand.
To your knowledge, is there a market demand by bank loan cov-
enants or other market demand that is driving us forward as it
would relate to providing this type of pandemic coverage at a na-
tional level?
Mr. LEHMANN. I have heard anecdotal chatter that that may be
a thing lenders are looking at, but I know of no evidence that it
is a common requirement. It would seem very unlikely for banks
to require something that doesn’t exist. It would mean they would
make no loans.
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Mr. STEIL. But in a sense, they did in TRIA, right? We saw the
markets kind of start to ‘‘glum up,’’ if you will, for lack of a better
phrase, following 9/11, where there was catastrophic loss. And Con-
gress was called to act because there was a hiccup, for lack of a
better phrase, as it related to providing liquidity, in particular, in
the real estate industry as it relates to TRIA. But, to your knowl-
edge, you haven’t really seen that play out on the financial side as
it relates to pandemic insurance?
Mr. LEHMANN. Not as yet. And one thing that is different is that
TRIA—following 9/11, existing terrorism insurance disappeared,
and so the lenders had that security before and they lost it. That
is not the case here. We didn’t have pandemic coverage before
COVID, and we don’t have it now.
Mr. STEIL. And following SARS really was truly probably carved
out almost explicitly in many of these programs. Can I ask you to
comment? I think one thing that we haven’t dove into as far as I
would like, the triggering event that would be required would real-
ly shift in many ways from traditional insurance coverage being an
actual occurrence of an event to a triggering event that would re-
quire possibly an Act of Congress—
Mr. LEHMANN. Right.
Mr. STEIL. —an act of State Government.
Mr. LEHMANN. Right.
Mr. STEIL. And it seems like that would really set up a potential
either moral hazard or political hazard. You can phrase it as you
like. But you can envision the pressure that would be placed on the
decision-maker in a political environment versus a tornado cata-
strophically comes through a town. It occurred, right?
Mr. LEHMANN. Absolutely.
Mr. STEIL. —second-guessing whether or not there was a tornado
that came through. This would be a triggering event.
Can you just comment on, are there other instances that you can
think of where a government actor, a political actor, would control
a triggering event, and how that has played out as it relates to a
potential moral hazard?
Mr. LEHMANN. The only real comparison is TRIA, where the
Treasury Secretary has to certify a terrorist event, but we haven’t
had one. We have never had a terrorist event that has been cer-
tified by the Treasury Secretary. And then, through the various
proposals, BCPP, the Chubb, and PRIA, and so forth, they all kind
of consider different stakeholders making those decisions, and that
obviously can be complicated, and certainly there will—a public of-
ficial will have pressure from the public.
Mr. STEIL. Sure. But just from a comparison standpoint, obvi-
ously, TRIA would have that. People on this committee are pretty
knowledgeable about how that trigger would work. But you don’t
see other instances where what I would consider free market, pri-
vate insurance is triggered by a political action rather than an
event occurring?
Mr. LEHMANN. Yes. Usually, events are defined and you don’t
need the government to tell you—
Mr. STEIL. Seeing my time has expired, I yield back. Thank you
very much.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Steil.
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I now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Lawson, for 5
minutes.
Mr. LAWSON. Chairman Clay, it is great to see you, and I want
to thank you so much for this hearing. This is a really important
hearing because it affects people and businesses all over the coun-
try.
My question is—there was an article in the Philadelphia Busi-
ness Journal reporting that there have been over 700 lawsuits
brought by policy owners against insurance companies that have
denied businesses interruption coverage for losses sustained as a
result of the COVID-19 pandemic, insurers almost unanimously de-
nying every claim across the country by taking a position that
COVID-19 does not constitute a direct physical loss or damage of
the covered property because the virus does not physically alter or
tangibly destroy the property like fire damage or any other dam-
age.
So I guess to Ms. Cantrell, can you please share from the policy
owner’s perspective about this issue? Because this is a pretty inter-
esting issue and I really need to know how the panel—what they
think about that.
Ms. CANTRELL. Are you asking about the litigation part of it?
Mr. LAWSON. The litigation part of it and how it affects—and I
will tell you, the reason why I am asking that is because in the
health insurance area and so forth, insurance kind of looks at it
now as if everybody has a preexisting condition based on the virus
and so forth. There is so much litigation involved that people who
are filing, insurers are saying we are denying all these because it
does not alter property.
Ms. CANTRELL. Right. Yes, I understand. And as I mentioned
earlier, I didn’t file any legal action. We haven’t sustained any
property damage, but we were shut down by the government, the
governor’s orders. There was really nothing I could do. I luckily
had a website, and that is how we were able to even function and
make any money at all.
So I find that maybe the language—and this is what we are talk-
ing about today, but the language isn’t there to support small busi-
nesses or businesses at all. So, I didn’t take any legal action, but
I see others have.
Mr. LAWSON. Would anybody else on the panel like to respond?
I can’t hear. Is that John speaking?
Can I see the hands of anybody who wants to respond?
If not, I have another for anybody on the panel out there.
Looking at your proposal, I know that there are conflicting
thoughts on premium charges for a Federal backstop. However,
given the challenges that private insurers face in providing busi-
ness interruption and even cancellation insurance for pandemic
risk, do you believe that some type of governmental backstop pro-
gram may be necessary if pandemic risk insurance is going to ever
be widely available to U.S. businesses? And this is for the whole
panel.
Mr. LEHMANN. I think the entire panel agrees that the private
market alone is not going to cover a risk like the global pandemic.
I think that is one thing that we all agree with, that it is too cor-
related a risk. You are not going to have just a private solution.
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The government needs to do something. What that something is,
we might disagree on, but that there is a government role, I don’t
think anyone disagrees.
Mr. LAWSON. Would anybody else care to elaborate on it?
Mr. DOYLE. Congressman, this is John Doyle. Can you hear me
now?
STAFF. Yes, we can hear you.
Mr. DOYLE. Apologies.
Look, I think we have been working on behalf of more than
10,000 of our policyholders to get their claims paid. In many cases
it is excluded, which is why we are here. We need a program that
covers this risk going forward. We need to structure it in a way
that encourages participation, it is subsidized by the government,
it has a quick and simple trigger to get liquidity into the system
so we can keep Ms. Cantrell’s business alive, and we need to create
the right incentives to bend the risk over time.
With all due respect to my fellow panelists, shutting a business
down or putting Ms. Cantrell’s business in a coma, I think we
ought to set our sights a little bit higher than that.
Chairman CLAY. Your time has expired, and I appreciate the line
of questioning that you followed.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gooden, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. GOODEN. Thank you, Chairman Clay. I first just want to say
how much of an honor it has been to work with you during my first
term in Congress, and you will be missed, and I appreciate the
time we have had together.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you.
Mr. GOODEN. And also, Chairman Clay, without objection, I
would like to insert the bipartisan bill, H.R. 7671, the Small Busi-
ness Comeback Act, along with a list of supporters’ letters for the
record.
The legislation will complement the CARES Act and the Pay-
check Protection Program by simplifying the application process
and reducing restrictions on how funds can be used. It is aimed at
providing continued [inaudible] Businesses and employees most im-
pacted by COVID-19, which are small businesses, and [inaudible]
operating in underserved areas. And I believe this legislation will
be instructive on how to address future pandemics.
I also want to thank the witnesses on the panel representing the
National Retail Federation, NAMIC and APCIA, [inaudible] The
bill. I would also like to ask witnesses to submit their comments
on this legislation for the record as well.
Chairman CLAY. And, Mr. Gooden, you want that as part of the
hearing record. Is that correct?
Mr. GOODEN. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman CLAY. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. GOODEN. Thank you.
Mr. Lehmann, I wanted to ask you to comment. It seems as if
the concept of insurance is perhaps being overlooked by some, and
that principle, the basic principle that it is designed to be covering
the losses of the few paid for by the many. And in this case, a glob-
al pandemic or a national pandemic is a major loss of everyone
paid for by everyone.
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So I would like for you to touch on that, but I also want you to
comment on this idea of a mandate for insurers. Some have sug-
gested that it might help to solve the issue we are talking about
today if we mandate that insurers offer this coverage, but would
that work? And what are the unintended consequences and con-
sequences to the market as well?
Mr. LEHMANN. Yes. I believe I put in my written statement the
line I have used a lot, but if half of the global economy shuts down,
the insurance industry alone cannot carry the other half on its
back. There will never be a scenario where that is possible. That
is why for an event of this size, correlation is not possible for the
insurance industry to right on its own.
On the question of a mandate, the concern would be—the upside
is if it is included in every policy that has business interruption,
then Ms. Cantrell doesn’t have to wonder, right? It is just auto-
matic. I have business interruption, so I am covered for that.
The question is, if you add the cost, would the business still buy
business interruption? Because two-thirds of businesses don’t. That
is an open question. If you reduce the [inaudible] of business inter-
ruption, then you are not necessarily getting the outcome that you
want.
Mr. GOODEN. Thank you.
Mr. Doyle, I have heard from brokers around the country that
the availability of pandemic-related insurance has disappeared,
and some have indicated to me that Congress should wait until
after the crisis is over before contemplating a program to address
future occurrences.
In the case of TRIA, the incidents were catastrophic. It only af-
fected certain areas, but it was a one-time incident. The very next
day, we were talking about, what do we do because the attack had
happened. In this case, the pandemic is still ongoing. We are poten-
tially not even to the worst of it.
Do you have any thoughts on whether Congress should wait until
after this is complete before we talk about a long-term solution
from an insurance perspective?
Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Congressman. The market for pandemic
insurance was limited prior to COVID, and it is more limited
today. And our clients are facing these risks and have no means
to deal with them at the moment.
As I mentioned earlier in my prepared remarks, I think it is fun-
damental and critical to the economic recovery that we act, and act
quickly. We should be thoughtful, of course, and as we have all
talked about, what Congresswoman Maloney has put forth is a ter-
rific starting place for a conversation. But I also think we can’t
wait. We need to move soon.
Mr. GOODEN. Thank you.
And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. I thank the gentleman for your testimony.
At this point, we will now go to the gentlewoman from California,
the Chair of the Full Committee, Chairwoman Waters, for 5 min-
utes.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you so very much, Mr. Chairman.
I would request a point of personal privilege.
Chairman CLAY. Please proceed.
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Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, it is with a great deal of sadness that we will not
have the opportunity to work with you in this Committee on Finan-
cial Services.
At this time, I would like to say to you today, that we will miss
you. We will miss you, and we will miss your work. We will miss
your leadership. We will miss your dedication to the great issues
of this committee, and particularly on housing. I know how much
time you have spent working on the issue of housing, and I know
the successes you have had, not only in St. Louis, but in our little
town of Wellston. I know this well.
What many Members do not know is that this is my hometown,
I was born in St. Louis, and that we are family members; your first
cousin is the father of my nephew. And so, the Clay family, the
Moore family, and the Carr family is a huge family in St. Louis,
Missouri.
We love you, we respect you, and we wish you the best as you
move forward. The business of this committeee will continue to be
conducted productively. So, thank you very much.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman, and
cousin. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you.
Now that they know, they won’t have to hold it against you that
you are my cousin.
Chairman CLAY. I hope not. Thank you.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you.
I will now turn to a question for Ms. McLaughlin. The largest in-
dustry trade groups have argued that pandemics simply cannot be
insured against. Their proposed solution puts all of the responsi-
bility for helping businesses and ensuring against the risk of a pan-
demic on the Federal Government. But not everyone within the in-
surance industry agrees. When cases of COVID-19 were first spik-
ing in the spring, business interruption losses to businesses were
estimated at over $1 trillion each month.
And so, I would like to ask you, do you think the Federal Govern-
ment should be entirely on the hook for these costs? What do you
think?
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. I don’t think the Federal Government should
be entirely on the hook. I think that the insurance industry should
play a role in this as well. But because we need to protect our bal-
ance sheets, we need to make sure that the role of the insurance
industry has some guardrails.
And that is really what the Chubb program has presented. It has
presented a finite exposure for the insurance industry, and as we
learn about this over time, we think that that exposure or limit
will grow.
Chairwoman WATERS. I want to thank you for your explanation
and your concern and the way that you described the role that each
should play.
And I am now going to Ms. Cantrell. When the pandemic first
broke out and your business was forced to shut down, what were
the expenses that were most urgent that you might have expected
your insurance policy to cover?
Ms. CANTRELL. Yes. Thank you so much for the question.
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37
First of all, our rent, which, since we are in New York City, is
very high. Payroll costs. Health insurance. Our bills. All of the fi-
nancial obligations that were due from buying in the retail cycle.
So, all of those.
Chairwoman WATERS. So you are able to basically identify how
government and insurance can play a role, and you believe that the
Chubb proposal would accomplish that?
Ms. CANTRELL. I am not that familiar with the Chubb proposal.
Chairwoman WATERS. But do you think that both the insurance
industry and government could or should play a role?
Ms. CANTRELL. Absolutely.
Chairwoman WATERS. You think that the insurance industry
should not be left to try to bear the burden of the cost of COVID-
19 or a pandemic. Is that right?
Ms. CANTRELL. I think it should be shared with a backstop, yes.
Chairwoman WATERS. Okay. Thank you very much.
And, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman CLAY. The chairwoman yields back.
I now recognize the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Hollingsworth,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. HOLLINGSWORTH. Thank you so much, sir, and I really ap-
preciate your service to the subcommittee and to the committee as
a whole.
Number one, I want to talk about all of the bad ideas that we
are throwing around here, and I certainly want to put a nail in the
coffin of what I think is the absolute worst idea that has ever been
brought forth about how we handle this, and that is forcing insur-
ers to pay out claims for which they did not collect premiums retro-
actively.
This is not even an idea. It is not even a solution. It is a rewrit-
ing of tens of thousands of contracts across this country, ripping
apart the very basis of contract law which has underpinned our
free market economy for 240 years. It is a violation of those basic
principles.
And in addition to that, I think we all need to remember that
every State regulator approved the exclusion of pandemic insur-
ance as a part of business interruption insurance. That was ap-
proved by red and blue State regulators across the country, and I
think that has been lost in the conversation.
I want to address my first question to Mr. Kuhlmann, and really
ask—we are using the word, ‘‘insurance,’’ a lot in this hearing, in
this dialogue. But really, zooming out, I continue to hear from in-
dustry, from experts, and from academics that this is truly an un-
insurable risk for the industry. Can you elaborate on why this is
an uninsurable risk, briefly?
Mr. KUHLMANN. Certainly, Congressman. Thank you for the
question.
The very nature of the pandemic, the fact that it is occurring all
at the same time for tens of millions of businesses all at the same
time, all over the country, it is not something that we can spread
the risk around. Insurance, like Mr. Lehmann said, is something
where you use the many to pay for the claims of the few, and this
would be everyone attempting to try to pay for everything at once.
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38
Mr. HOLLINGSWORTH. Right. So when I hear other Members talk
about how they want government involvement in this and private-
public partnerships, really what they mean by government involve-
ment is either one of two things, right? Number one, trying to re-
duce the very high premiums that pandemic insurance would cost
if it was in the private sector, because they want to improve up-
take, so it would be reducing premiums, or the absorption of the
massive contemporaneous losses that would occur. That is what I
continue to hear people say by public involvement in this.
And the first is most disconcerting, because what I hear from all
of these members saying, ‘‘Gosh, this would improve economic sta-
bility, we need more people to take this out so that their risks are
lower,’’ but if more people are taking it out, it means we have low-
ered the premiums dramatically, not reflecting the real underlying
risk that is being taken either by insurance companies or by the
government, because in and of itself it is standalone. If it were in-
surable, the cost would be very, very high. Isn’t that correct?
Mr. KUHLMANN. That is absolutely correct. The affordability is
very key. That is why we believe the BCPP is a way that you
would have the product be much more affordable and could be
bought by small businesses and nonprofits all over the country.
And the more people that buy into it, of course, the cost of it will
go down.
Mr. HOLLINGSWORTH. Right. But as you said, the more people
who buy into it, the more concurrent losses you are also going to
have, which means you need the government’s balance sheet to
step in. Because if uptake is very, very good, you will have the good
problem of a lot of people getting paid out but the bad problem of
a lot of people making those payments being taxpayers, and that
continues to be a deep concern to Hoosiers and to Americans alike.
The second big thing that I wanted to touch on is this notion that
in the future, future Congresses are going to say to American busi-
nesses, ‘‘Hey, you paid into this program, we are going to give you
a recovery, but your business next door, which is suffering mightily
in this future pandemic, is not going to get paid out.’’
I have only been in Congress for 4 years, but I have borne wit-
ness to many times when we did not make such a distinction, and
the inclination of future Congresses will be to pay everybody, to
give everybody a recovery, to help spur the economy along. And
then no one will buy that ‘‘insurance’’ in the next round because
they will recognize that everyone got the same payment whether
they paid into the program or not.
So, I think this whole hearing is about a lot of bad ideas that
are masked under good economic policy, are masked under insur-
ance, but aren’t actually either.
With that, I will yield back.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Hollingsworth.
And now, I want to recognize my friend and neighbor to the
north from Iowa, Mrs. Axne, for 5 minutes.
Mrs. AXNE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is so good to see you.
And I’m really grateful to be here, having this hearing on a really
important topic right now.
We all know that our country has been hit incredibly hard by
this pandemic.
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Can you all hear me okay, or am I echoing?
Chairman CLAY. You are echoing. Perhaps our technicians can
help us. Try it again, Cindy.
Mrs. AXNE. Let’s try this again.
Chairman CLAY. Still echoing. Wow. Can we come back to—well,
I can hear you now. Go ahead.
Mrs. AXNE. How does that sound?
Chairman CLAY. Still an echo.
Let’s go to Mr. Gonzalez of Ohio, and then we will come back to
you, Cindy.
Mrs. AXNE. Okay.
Chairman CLAY. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Gonzalez, is now
recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to everybody for participating in this hearing. Ob-
viously, a lot of thought has gone into the various proposals, and
I appreciate that. I don’t want to be too negative on the work, be-
cause I know people are sincerely trying to solve what is a very dif-
ficult problem.
Having said that, I do want to associate myself with Mr. Hol-
lingsworth’s remarks almost in full. It seems awfully premature.
And I have heard from Mr. Kuhlmann. I am curious what Mr. Leh-
mann, Ms. McLaughlin, or Mr. Doyle would say. Does anybody be-
lieve that this is an insurable risk in the traditional sense?
Mr. LEHMANN. Congressman, I guess I will go first.
There are risks within the pandemic that are insurable. It is not
possible for the industry, at the macro level, to insure the entire
pandemic. You can have a policy that is discrete and has caps. So
long as those caps will be respected, then an insurer will write. It
is just not nearly enough for the size of the problem.
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. Precisely, yes. And I think, again, I will
be very quick because, frankly, Trey did as good a job as you can
possibly do to reflect my personal views.
But again, I would say we are in the middle of this, not at the
end. I think it is very premature and, quite frankly, arrogant to
think that we could right now sit here and drum up the perfect
program or a workable program that would insure us against fu-
ture pandemics.
Personally, I think what we probably should do is navigate our
way through this current pandemic, review how all of the programs
we put in place worked, what worked well, what didn’t work well,
what adjustments would we make in future pandemics, and then
move forward from there.
But I do appreciate all of the work everybody has done, because
I know we are all trying our best here. But that would be my take.
Thank you for the hearing. Thank you for recognizing me. And
I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. The gentleman from Ohio yields back.
I would like to go back to the gentlewoman from Iowa, Mrs.
Axne.
Mrs. Axne, are you there?
No? Okay. She is not there now.
So, Mr. Timmons of South Carolina, you are now recognized for
5 minutes.
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40
Mr. TIMMONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And, Mr. Chairman, thank you for your great service to this com-
mittee and to the House as a whole. I wish you the best in the fu-
ture. We will all no doubt miss your leadership.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you.
Mr. TIMMONS. So, we find ourselves in the midst of a disaster.
Make no mistake, this pandemic has devastated folks all over the
country, the very same people who send us to Congress to be their
voice in these critical decisions.
As a small business owner myself, I feel the intense pain of many
beloved local stores and restaurants in my district who will not be
opening anytime soon, if they ever do reopen. These places operate
on thin margins and rely on loyal customers, many of whom are
unwilling or unable to return to the ways they are accustomed to
shopping. And this is not the business owners’ fault. And from
what I have heard today, any long-term solution must work for all
parts of the economy, and most importantly, that must ultimately
help those who are forced to close their businesses by the govern-
ment.
On that note, Mr. Kuhlmann, would PRIA as proposed address
the problems so many of our small business owners are currently
facing?
Mr. KUHLMANN. We believe that the BCPP is a better model
than the proposed PRIA, mainly because you are back into the in-
surance model for handling those claims and the amount of time
that it would take to actually adjust the claims versus the BCPP,
which could get money directly in the hands of the small busi-
nesses who need it.
Thank you, Congressman.
Mr. TIMMONS. But PRIA, you would agree, would not necessarily
as designed help the small business owners that we are most fo-
cused on helping. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. KUHLMANN. And I believe part of that is the affordability of
it. I think that the BCPP will be much more affordable than a
PRIA model, which I think just would not be affordable for most
small businesses who operate on, as you said, a very thin margin.
I agree.
Mr. TIMMONS. If PRIA had been the law last year, does anybody
on this call want to estimate the cost to the Federal Government
for its portion of these losses? Does anybody have guesstimates?
We are talking trillions, I am guessing.
Mr. DOYLE. Yes, Congressman, that is why we need—if the diver-
sification issue didn’t exist, the private market would have solved
for this already. So, this is why we need the ultimate support of
the Federal Government.
Mr. TIMMONS. I certainly appreciate my colleague’s willingness to
put her idea on paper. I don’t believe this is a realistic solution.
But my colleagues, Mr. Gonzalez and Mr. Hollingsworth, have
made solid points.
Insuring the risks posed by potential terrorist attacks versus the
risks posed by a global pandemic, they just couldn’t be more dif-
ferent. Terror attacks, even the worst, most devastating ones, are
typically confined to relatively small geographic areas and they
have a very clear beginning and end.
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41
Pandemics, on the other hand, by definition, are occurring every-
where at once for an unknown amount of time. So to think that we
can essentially copy and paste our plan for insuring against ter-
rorism for that of insuring against pandemics, it just doesn’t work.
Furthermore, I believe that the time to plan for the next 100-
year pandemic is not in the middle of the current one. Small busi-
nesses are suffering due to government closures. Nothing we are
discussing today will help Ms. Cantrell or any of the other busi-
nesses in our districts that are facing the prospects of closing right
now.
The CARES Act was very helpful, but it was over 7 months ago.
Our inaction in Congress is, quite frankly, disgraceful. When the
government puts people out of work due to no fault of their own,
for safety purposes of our citizenry, it must step in and make those
businesses and individuals whole. We have neglected our duty and
must act immediately.
Many businesses in my district were able to get PPP loans, and
that is something that we all agree on. We need to make sure that
businesses that are still suffering, that have the revenue loss, are
able to get the assistance. If we are going to shut them down, we
have an obligation to make sure that they get through this pan-
demic.
I believe that we can get this done. I believe we need to get it
done quickly. And I look forward to working with my colleagues to
get through this pandemic and then finding a good policy-based so-
lution that will allow us to prepare for the next one.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my
time. Thank you.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you, Mr. Timmons.
Let me say that if you have any relationship with your two U.S.
Senators, I would urge that you talk to them about getting back
to the negotiating table with Speaker Pelosi, as well as with Treas-
ury Secretary Mnuchin, and that would help us address some of
the issues that you raised.
Mr. TIMMONS. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have been pushing that as
hard as I can. But at the end of the day, we need to help people
who are being adversely affected by COVID, not bail out States’ in-
solvent pension funds. So, I think we can find a way forward.
Chairman CLAY. And we as a Congress have to agree that we
want to help the American people during this global health pan-
demic.
Let’s try Mrs. Axne one more time.
You are recognized for 5 minutes, Mrs. Axne.
Mrs. AXNE. How does this sound, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman CLAY. Much better. It sounds like you.
Mrs. AXNE. Perfect. Thank you so much for putting up with my
technical difficulties. I never thought I would be saying that in the
middle of a hearing, but here we go.
Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing and
for having me here. This is an incredibly important topic, of course,
for small businesses across the country who have been hit so hard
with this pandemic. We could be looking at 40 to 50 percent of our
restaurants closing in the next 6 months, and that is just one ex-
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42
ample, with COVID uncontrollably getting worse across this coun-
try.
The starting point for what we are discussing here today is that
businesses in my district and around the country found out in
March that even if they were in the 30 to 40 percent of companies
that had business interruption insurance, it likely didn’t cover
pandemics.
Mr. Doyle, none of the proposals we are discussing today would
be retroactive and cover COVID-19 losses. Is that correct?
Mr. DOYLE. That is correct, Congresswoman.
Mrs. AXNE. Thank you.
Now, I know that estimates for the losses were more than $400
billion per month for just the smallest businesses.
Ms. McLaughlin, or Mr. Kuhlmann, I am wondering, how much
in losses do you think that we might be talking about insuring? Do
you have an updated estimate for the losses so far this year?
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. Congresswoman, I don’t have an estimate of
the losses this year.
Mrs. AXNE. Okay.
Mr. Kuhlmann, do you?
Mr. KUHLMANN. No, I do not.
Mrs. AXNE. Okay.
Mr. KUHLMANN. Thank you.
Mrs. AXNE. So for any of the witnesses, if this were just to be
covered overall, do you have a sense of what kind of premiums
then that we would be talking about relative to current business
interruption insurance?
Mr. DOYLE. Congresswoman, what I am suggesting is that we de-
velop a program that encourages participation. It would need to in
some way be subsidized by the U.S. Government’s balance sheet.
I would make the case that the Government ultimately is holding
the risk today.
What is missing today from whether it is the CARES Act or the
BCPP are the social benefits of insurance. And we can mitigate the
future impacts of pandemics on our economy if the private market,
the government, and our policyholders come together.
Mrs. AXNE. I very much appreciate that. But I have to be honest
here. It is hard for me to evaluate proposals to cover future
pandemics when no one knows what those premiums might be.
That is an important piece of what this looks like.
Mr. Doyle and Mr. Kuhlmann, do you have any sense of what
percentage of businesses might want pandemic coverage either
with or without a Federal subsidy? And if you are including a Fed-
eral subsidy in that, how large do you estimate that subsidy to be?
Mr. DOYLE. It is hard to say what the ultimate take-up rate
would be, Congresswoman. Of course, it would depend upon how
we structured and ultimately priced the program. But a govern-
ment subsidy would be required and we would need to figure out
the modeling and the data behind that.
Mrs. AXNE. Okay. So, no clear understanding right now at this
point on the kind of premiums and/or the types of subsidies that
would be necessary for that is my understanding.
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43
Mr. DOYLE. It would ultimately depend upon the amount of risk
that the government would be willing to backstop for the private
market.
Mrs. AXNE. Okay. Now, this crisis of course, unfortunately, has
shown us firsthand how many of our businesses can’t even go
weeks without some revenue coming in.
And there is another issue that we have to address here, which
is how fast we can get relief to the businesses that need it. And
we certainly saw that with the PPP this spring, how much of a dif-
ference even just a few weeks can make in getting that into folks’
hands. And I know firsthand, that processing insurance claims isn’t
always the quickest process, and that is without everyone making
a claim all at the same time.
Under any of the concepts we are considering, how quickly would
businesses be able to get the help they need during a pandemic?
And I would take an answer from each one of you or any one of
you on this.
Mr. DOYLE. For me, Congresswoman, I would connect it to a
parametric trigger. If we could set the right trigger, we could get
that claim paid quite quickly, within weeks.
Mrs. AXNE. Within weeks, you said?
Mr. DOYLE. Yes.
Mr. KUHLMANN. I think, Congresswoman, under the BCPP with
a parametric trigger, it would be immediate. You would not have
a traditional claims process where you are having an adjustor try-
ing to do some forensic accounting on determining the amount of
the claim. So I think under that, under the BCPP, it would be
nearly, nearly immediate, yes. Thank you.
Ms. MCLAUGHLIN. And, Congresswoman, under the Chubb pro-
gram as well we are looking at a parametric structure for small
businesses so we can get the funds in the hands of the small busi-
nesses as quickly as possible.
Mrs. AXNE. Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Since these proposals are all forward-looking, I want to make
sure that we have a solution that actually works for the businesses
that need it.
Honestly, I just want to make sure that we don’t raise costs for
businesses so much that insurance could be unaffordable and push
them out of business right now as we are coming out of a pan-
demic. We also risk fighting the last war and charging businesses
for something they won’t even use. So, thank you so much for your
answers to give me some clarity.
And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Mrs. Axne.
And I understand the ranking member from Ohio, Mr. Stivers,
wants to make a closing statement.
Mr. STIVERS. I just wanted a point of personal privilege, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman CLAY. Please go ahead.
Mr. STIVERS. I will be very brief.
I think this hearing is another example of you showing your
leadership and what you have done to make Congress better, to
make America stronger, and to serve your constituents, Mr. Chair-
man.
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44
And I, for one, am very proud to have worked with you. And I
want to say good luck to you in your future, and that we will all
miss you very deeply and your expertise, your hard work, your dili-
gence, and your caring nature, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you.
Mr. STIVERS. Thank you for what you have done to make our
country better and to represent the best of us. Today is just an-
other example of that. Thanks for a great hearing today. You have
made a difference for America. God bless you in the future, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman CLAY. Thank you so much, Mr. Stivers.
And let me first say, I would like to again thank our witnesses
for their testimony today.
Without objection, I would like to submit a letter from Ranking
Member Stivers and I to President Trump for the record, and also
a letter to House leadership. Both letters address pandemic risk in-
surance.
Without objection, it is so ordered.
The Chair notes that some Members may have additional ques-
tions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in writing.
Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legis-
lative days for Members to submit written questions to these wit-
nesses and to place their responses in the record. Also, without ob-
jection, Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous
materials to the Chair for inclusion in the record.
And now, in closing, this hearing has certainly raised interesting
and intriguing issues on how to best protect businesses of all sizes
during a global health pandemic. And I want to thank Chairwoman
Maloney for bringing this issue to the forefront, and I am certain
this will not be the last we hear of this issue.
More than likely, this will be the last hearing that I chair of this
subcommittee, since I will be leaving the House at the end of the
116th Congress. Let me say that it has been an honor and a privi-
lege to serve in this august body, and a distinction only experi-
enced by some 11,000 Americans throughout our nation’s history.
And as Chairwoman Waters mentioned, we are relatives, but to
me, to all of the Members of this committee and this Congress, I
look at you all like we are family, and I hold you in my heart as
such. And I wish you all success in the 117th Congress, and God
bless you all.
This hearing is adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 12:29 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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November 19, 2020
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-116hhrg43528.pdf
- Size
- 153,298,375 bytes
- SHA-256
- cb6603939a2b2a71aa3d864c02347b4a655ab572463d78b1274d273802a93c05
- Our copy
- CHRG-116hhrg43528.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov