House hearing (119th Congress), FRAUD IN FOCUS: EXPOSING FINANCIAL THREATS TO AMERICAN FAMILIES (PDF)
Summary
The printed record of a September 18, 2025 hearing of the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations of the House Committee on Financial Services, Serial No. 119–42, titled Fraud in Focus: Exposing Financial Threats to American Families. Opening statements come from Subcommittee Chairman Dan Meuser of Pennsylvania and Ranking Member Al Green of Texas, with a statement by full committee Chairman French Hill of Arkansas. Witnesses are Paul Benda of the American Bankers Association, Ian Bednowitz of Lifelock at Gen, Kate Griffin of the Aspen Institute Financial Security Program's National Task Force on Fraud and Scam Prevention, and Carla Sanchez-Adams of the National Consumer Law Center, each with a prepared statement.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Full text
FRAUD IN FOCUS: EXPOSING FINANCIAL THREATS
TO AMERICAN FAMILIES
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND
INVESTIGATIONS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
SEPTEMBER 18, 2025
Serial No. 119–42
Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
(
www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
63–431 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 5011 Sfmt 5011 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas, Chairman
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan, Vice Chairman MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma Member
PETE SESSIONS, Texas SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas, Vice Ranking
ANN WAGNER, Missouri Member
ANDY BARR, Kentucky NYDIA M. VELÁZQUEZ, New York
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas BRAD SHERMAN, California
TOM EMMER, Minnesota GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee AL GREEN, Texas
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South Carolina JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut
MARLIN STUTZMAN, Indiana BILL FOSTER, Illinois
RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio
DANIEL MEUSER, Pennsylvania JUAN VARGAS, California
YOUNG KIM, California JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
BYRON DONALDS, Florida VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York RITCHIE TORRES, New York
MONICA DE LA CRUZ, Texas NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa CLEO FIELDS, Louisiana
LISA MCCLAIN, Michigan JANELLE BYNUM, Oregon
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida SAM LICCARDO, California
TROY DOWNING, Montana
MIKE HARIDOPOLOS, Florida
TIM MOORE, North Carolina
Ben Johnson, Staff Director
SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS
DANIEL MEUSER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
TIM MOORE, North Carolina, Vice Chairman AL GREEN, Texas, Ranking Member
ANN WAGNER, Missouri RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York CLEO FIELDS, Louisiana
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee SAM LICCARDO, California
MIKE HARIDOPOLOS, Florida
(II)
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
C O N T E N T S
Thursday, September 18, 2025
OPENING STATMENTS
Page
Hon. Dan Meuser, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Oversight and Inves-
tigations, a U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania ......................................... 2
Hon. Al Green, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Oversight and
Investigations, a U.S. Representative from Texas ............................................ 3
STATEMENTS
Hon. French Hill, Chairman of the Committee on Financial Services, a U.S.
Representative from Arkansas ............................................................................ 4
WITNESSES
Mr. Paul Benda, Executive Vice President of Risk, Fraud, and Cybersecurity,
American Bankers Association (ABA) ................................................................ 5
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 8
Mr. Ian Bednowitz, General Manager, Lifelock at Gen ....................................... 28
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 30
Ms. Kate Griffin, Director, National Task Force on Fraud and Scam Preven-
tion, Aspen Institute Financial Security Program ............................................ 38
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 40
Ms. Carla Sanchez-Adams, Senior Attorney, National Consumer Law Center
(NCLC) .................................................................................................................. 53
Prepared Statement ......................................................................................... 55
APPENDIX
MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Hon. Dan Meuser: ....................................................................................................
Consumer Bankers Association (CBA) ............................................................ 141
Bank Policy Institute (BPI) ............................................................................. 143
AARP ................................................................................................................. 165
American Financial Services Association (AFSA) .......................................... 177
Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association (SIFMA) ................ 179
Hon. Zachary Nunn, Hon. Hon. Josh Gottheimer, Hon. Scott Fitzgerald: .........
Capital One ....................................................................................................... 182
RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
Written responses to questions for the record from Representative Nikema
Williams
Mr. Paul Benda ................................................................................................. 185
Mr. Ian Bednowitz ............................................................................................
Ms. Kate Griffin ................................................................................................ 188
Ms. Carla Sanchez-Adams ............................................................................... 190
Written responses to questions for the record from Representative Andrew
R. Garbarino
Ms. Kate Griffin ................................................................................................ 192
(III)
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
FRAUD IN FOCUS: EXPOSING FINANCIAL
THREATS TO AMERICAN FAMILIES
Thursday, September 18, 2025
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS,
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m., in room
2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Dan Meuser [chairman
of the subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Meuser, Wagner, Loudermilk, Ogles,
Haridopolos, Moore, Green, Tlaib, Williams of Georgia, Fields, and
Liccardo.
Also present: Representatives Hill, Lucas, Davidson, Steil, Nunn,
Waters, and Foster.
Chairman MEUSER. Well, good morning, all.
The Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations will come to
order.
Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of
the committee at any time.
This hearing is entitled ‘‘Fraud in Focus: Exposing Financial
Threats to American Families.’’ The purpose of this hearing is to
better understand the various types of financial fraud that exist,
including the meteoric rise in check fraud and senior scams.
This hearing will highlight different types of fraud and begin to
identify opportunities for Federal agencies, both independently and
together, and in conjunction and cooperatively with the private sec-
tor so we better use existing authorities to combat the rise in finan-
cial fraud and engage in consumer education.
This hearing will be the first in a series of fraud-and scam-re-
lated committee work. It is that important.
Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days with-
in which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for inclusion
in the record.
Chairman MEUSER. I now recognize myself for 4 minutes to give
an opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DAN MEUSER, CHAIRMAN OF
THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS,
A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM PENNSYLVANIA
I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today to dis-
cuss the fraud and scams in the financial sector and the threat
they pose to consumers.
(1)
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
2
In 2024, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) reported receiving
2.6 million reports of fraud and scams, with consumers losing over
$12 billion, a 25-percent increase from just 2023.
While that figure alone is staggering, it is likely only the tip of
the iceberg, given that many victims do not report their experi-
ences. In fact, the Department of Justice estimates that only 15
percent of victims report fraud to law enforcement.
Check fraud alone has more than doubled since 2021.
Criminals behind fraud and scams are sophisticated. They use a
wide variety of schemes—check fraud, romance scams, bank trans-
fer fraud, identity theft, payment scams, and more—and they tar-
get all segments of the population. Individuals of all ages are fall-
ing victim.
The only way to defeat criminals and defend consumers is truly
a whole-society approach. Young adults are vulnerable, with so
much of their personal information readily available online. Sen-
iors, meanwhile, are often hit with the most devastating financial
losses when exploited by scammers. All ages are at risk.
That is why today’s hearing is not only about exposing the prob-
lem but also about discussing how we can best strengthen con-
sumer education, highlight best practices for both consumers and
companies, promote proven systems and models, and improve how
we track and stop scammers before they strike.
I commend the Trump Administration for initiating efforts to
counter fraud and scams in the U.S., including its recent sanctions
on cyber scam centers based in Southeast Asia. President Trump
also signed an executive order to move away from using checks for
government-related payments.
The Treasury Department, the Federal Reserve, and the Securi-
ties and Exchange Commission have all recently initiated efforts to
gain information pertaining to check fraud, payment fraud, and
cross-border fraud.
To aid this effort, I sent a letter, along with Chairman Hill and
Andy Barr, yesterday to Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell
seeking more information as to the Federal Reserve’s (Fed’s) work
on fraud, including how it is collaborating with the Office of the
Comptroller of the Currency (OCC), FDIC, and other stakeholders
to address check and payment fraud.
We also requested a briefing on the comments received to the
Fed’s June 2025 request for information as well as the Fed’s plans
to educate consumers moving forward but no single actor can stop
fraud on their own. To truly protect families, we must foster col-
laboration across all stakeholders. That includes working across
Federal, State, and local governments, within the financial sector,
including lending/payment companies and fraud protection compa-
nies, technology platforms, and telecom companies.
We are already seeing companies step up. Apple’s recent iOS 26
update, for instance, expanded spam text and call screening to help
consumers block fraud at the source.
Much more needs to be done, however. Conversations with all
these stakeholders, including with consumers themselves, will be
critical as we pursue a whole-of-society approach to combat fraud
and scams.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
3
Finally, I want to highlight that my office has just recently
launched a new online resource at meuser.house.gov/scams, where
consumers can learn red flags to spot scams, useful links to prevent
fraud, and guidance on what to do if they fall victim.
So this is just the beginning of the committee’s work and
Congress’s work on fraud and on scams. So I look forward to work-
ing on a bipartisan basis to find real solutions to a problem that
continues to be the number one financial services issue I hear from
my constituents, community banks, and law enforcement.
I yield back.
The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the sub-
committee, the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, for 4 minutes for
an opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. AL GREEN, RANKING MEMBER
OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGA-
TIONS, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM TEXAS
Mr. GREEN. I thank the chairman, someone whom I have great
respect for, and I thank the witnesses for being here as well, as
well as some other persons who are here at my request to show
support. We greatly appreciate your attendance.
The title of this hearing is ‘‘Fraud in Focus: Exposing Financial
Threats to American Families.’’ However, a better title for this
hearing would be ‘‘Fraud Enabled: How President Trump Is Expos-
ing American Families to Financial Threats With His Tariff Taxes
and His Evisceration of the Consumer Financial Protection Bu-
reau,’’ the CFPB.
When President Trump campaigned on imposing steep tariffs on
both our allies and adversaries, he assured the American people
that the cost of these tariffs would be paid by foreign sellers, not
Americans.
This prevarication has become one of the biggest frauds in an ad-
ministration rife with fraud. Instead of foreign sellers paying the
price for Trump’s tariffs, it is the buying U.S. businesses, in tan-
dem with their clienteles, who are suffering the cost that foreign
sellers will not pay.
Among the U.S. businesses suffering, small businesses have been
especially vulnerable to the volatility of Trump’s erratic economic
policies. In July 2025, 67 percent of small businesses reported high-
er expenses over the quarter prior to that time. With 60 percent
attributing higher costs to Trump’s recent tariff increases, millions
of mom-and-pop businesses are closing or are facing the prospect
of closing.
Republicans desiring to combat fraud or financial threats to
American families should focus on Trump’s tariffs that are dev-
astating American businesses, especially small businesses, as well
as how Trump has systematically gutted the principal financial
protection agency, the CFPB, and how the Consumer Financial
Protection Bureau is being made ineffective.
The CFPB was established after the Great Recession to protect
consumers from financial abuse, including fraud. Since its creation,
the CFPB has actively protected consumers by investigating and
punishing financial institutions for their abusive and deceptive
practices. Since 2011, the CFPB has returned more than $20 billion
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
4
to consumers defrauded by Big Banks, debt collectors, and payday
lenders.
Sadly and shamefully, Trump’s CFPB has stopped initiating new
investigations into abuses in the financial industry and has discon-
tinued ongoing examinations, dismissed enforcement actions, and
even rescinded finalized settlements, denying consumers agreed-to
benefits.
To add insult to consumer injuries, Republicans cut the CFPB’s
funding, cut it in half, crippling the agency’s ability to police the
payment processors Big Tech platforms and banks are using to
take advantage of consumers.
The Republican record is clear: They have defrauded and dis-
mantled the CFPB fraud police at the expense of the American con-
sumers and have perpetrated a tax fraud on American families. Re-
grettably, this is not oversight; this is complicity, coupled with aid-
ing and abetting Trump’s fraud.
I yield back.
STATEMENT OF HON. FRENCH HILL, CHAIRMAN OF THE COM-
MITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE
FROM ARKANSAS
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields back.
The chair now recognizes the chairman of the full committee,
Chairman Hill, for 1 minute.
Chairman HILL. Thank you, Chairman Meuser.
Today’s hearing is another step in the committee’s efforts to bet-
ter understand the various types of financial fraud so that we can
better help protect American families from these financial threats.
Over the past 3 years, at one State bank trade association that
I have gone to after another—Georgia, Mississippi, Arkansas, Lou-
isiana, Texas, Ohio, among others—this has been the top topic.
Our State attorney generals are witnessing accelerated check
fraud, debit fraud, and text phishing that are all targeting Ameri-
cans and generating unprecedented losses to both consumers and
the financial system. Personally, our family was a victim of check
fraud, thanks to the U.S. post office, in 2022.
We will begin today by exploring a proactive set of measures that
Federal agencies might take and implement to counter these
threats and better protect all Americans from financial fraud.
We look forward to hearing about emerging technologies like AI
and blockchain technologies that can help achieve that protection.
I thank our witnesses, and I yield back.
Chairman MEUSER. I thank Chairman Hill.
We will now move to witness testimony, seeing that the ranking
member of the full committee is not here.
I really appreciate—we all appreciate your attendance and your,
what we expect to be expert testimony.
We will start off by welcoming Mr. Paul Benda. Mr. Benda is the
executive vice president of risk, fraud, and cybersecurity at the
American Bankers Association, where he leads the American Bank-
ers Association’s (ABA’s) initiative on fraud, cybersecurity, physical
security, and information security and chairs the ABA Fraud Co-
ordination Group. Mr. Benda also serves as the chair of the Inter-
national Banking Federation’s Scams and Fraud Task Force. Mr.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
5
Benda’s career spanned both public and private sectors, having
served as an Active Duty U.S. Air Force officer and as an official
with both the Department of Defense and Department of Homeland
Security. Mr. Benda received a bachelor’s and master’s degree in
mechanical engineering from Purdue University.
Welcome and thank you.
Mr. Ian Bednowitz: Mr. Bednowitz is the general manager of
LifeLock at Gen, a leading U.S. identity-theft protection service.
Prior to joining LifeLock, Mr. Bednowitz was the global head of
protections at eBay, where he was responsible for managing and
improving programs to build customers’ trust for transacting on
eBay. Mr. Bednowitz graduated summa cum laude with a B.A. in
economics from Cornell University and holds an MBA from the
Kellogg School of Management.
Thank you very much, and welcome.
Ms. Kate Griffin: Ms. Griffin is the director of the Aspen Insti-
tute’s Financial Security Program. She also serves as the director
of the National Task Force on Fraud and Scam Prevention, where
she leads a multisector collaborative effort aimed at creating a na-
tional strategy to prevent scammers from stealing wealth from ev-
eryday Americans. She holds a master’s from American University
and a bachelor’s degree from Kenyon College.
So thank you very much.
Ms. Carla Sanchez-Adams, welcome.
Ms. Sanchez-Adams is a senior attorney at the National Con-
sumer Law Center. She also serves as a board member for the Na-
tional Association of Consumer Advocates and is a fellow with the
American Bar Association. Prior to joining National Consumer Law
Center (NCLC), Ms. Sanchez-Adams was a managing attorney with
Texas RioGrande Legal Aid. Ms. Sanchez-Adams graduated with a
bachelor’s degree from NYU and received her Juris Doctor from the
University of Texas.
So thank you very much as well.
So each of you will be recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral
presentation of your testimony. Without objection, your written
statements will be made part of the record.
So, Mr. Benda, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your
oral remarks.
STATEMENT OF PAUL BENDA, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT
OF RISK, FRAUD, AND CYBERSECURITY, AMERICAN BANK-
ERS ASSOCIATION
Mr. BENDA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Meuser, Ranking Member Green, and members of the
subcommittee, thank you for focusing on this critical issue today
and the opportunity to testify.
My name is Paul Benda, and I serve as executive vice president
of risk, fraud, and cybersecurity at the American Bankers Associa-
tion.
Banks have long been on the front lines of protecting consumers
from fraud. From chip-enabled cards to multifactor authentication,
from AI-driven fraud detection to real-time alerts, the banking in-
dustry has invested billions to make our financial system one of the
most secure in the world.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
6
Americans recognize that effort. Surveys show that 9 in 10 cus-
tomers say their bank is taking proactive steps to protect them
from fraud, but criminals are innovating too. They have reinvested
the $300 billion stolen during the pandemic to build highly orga-
nized networks that now use deepfakes, spoofed caller IDs, stolen
checks, and fake social media accounts to target Americans.
This is where banks face a critical limitation. By the time a vic-
tim is ready to send a payment, they often believe they know and
trust the scammer. Caller ID might display the bank’s name. A
text message might look identical to a legitimate fraud alert. A so-
cial media ad might appear to come from a trusted company.
These are tools banks do not control. That is why banks cannot
fight this battle alone. Other stakeholders must step up.
Telecommunication companies must stop criminals from imper-
sonating banks through spoofed phone calls and fraudulent texts.
Today, a criminal overseas can make a call appear as if it is coming
from a 1–800 number on the back of your debit card. If the phone
says it is your bank, most people will believe it.
Social media platforms must remove fake accounts and fraudu-
lent ads more quickly. The Wall Street Journal recently docu-
mented how fake investment promotions on Instagram and
Facebook have cost consumers their life savings. Banks regularly
flag these scams, but takedowns are slow and inconsistent.
The Postal Service must strengthen protections against check
theft, which remains one of the fastest growing forms of fraud and
law enforcement needs more resources to investigate and prosecute
cases, because no amount of bank investment can replace the de-
terrence of putting criminals behind bars.
We urge Congress, the administration, regulatory agencies, and
others in the private sector to help close these gaps.
First, the administration should create a White House Office of
Fraud and Scam Prevention to coordinate Federal efforts, unify
consumer reporting, and drive a national strategy.
Second, we should require telecom accountability by closing loop-
holes that allow spoofed calls and texts, ban subscriber identity
module (SIM) boxes that send thousands of scam texts, and ensure
caller ID cannot be faked.
Third, we need to hold social media companies responsible by
mandating quick, free takedown of impersonation accounts and im-
pose liability if platforms knowingly allow them to remain.
Fourth, we must support law enforcement by providing for State-
level financial crimes units modeled on Texas’s Financial Crimes
Intelligence Center, which has proven effective.
Fifth, we need to improve information-sharing by creating safe
harbors for banks and regulators to exchange fraud data and re-
quire the Federal Communications Commission (finacial ) to estab-
lish a searchable spam text and messaging database.
Finally, we need to continue to combat check fraud by supporting
the development of a national check verification system to authen-
ticate checks at deposit.
Banks are proud of the role we play in protecting consumers. We
continue to invest, to innovate, and to educate. ABA has launched
several national anti-fraud campaigns, including ‘‘Banks Never Ask
That’’ and ‘‘Practice Safe Checks’’ to help people recognize scams,
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
7
as well as ‘‘Safe Banking for Seniors’’ to help combat the ever-grow-
ing problem of senior fraud but unless every player in the fraud
ecosystem accepts their responsibility, criminals will continue to
victimize Americans at an unprecedented scale. Fraud is not just
a banking problem; it is an ecosystem problem and until all parts
of that ecosystem are equally committed to protecting consumers,
the American public will remain at risk.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Benda follows:]
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
8
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 1 here 63431.001
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
9
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 2 here 63431.002
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
10
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 3 here 63431.003
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
11
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 4 here 63431.004
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
12
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 5 here 63431.005
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00016 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
13
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 6 here 63431.006
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
14
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 7 here 63431.007
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
15
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 8 here 63431.008
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
16
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 9 here 63431.009
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
17
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 10 here 63431.010
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
18
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 11 here 63431.011
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
19
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 12 here 63431.012
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
20
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 13 here 63431.013
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00024 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
21
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 14 here 63431.014
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
22
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 15 here 63431.015
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
23
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 16 here 63431.016
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
24
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 17 here 63431.017
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00028 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
25
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 18 here 63431.018
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00029 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
26
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 19 here 63431.019
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
27
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 20 here 63431.020
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
28
Chairman MEUSER. Thank you as well.
Mr. Bednowitz, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your
opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF IAN BEDNOWITZ, GENERAL MANAGER,
LIFELOCK AT GEN
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Thank you.
Chairman Meuser, Ranking Member Green, and members of the
committee, good morning, and thank you for this opportunity to
testify on this critical topic of fraud affecting American families.
My name is Ian Bednowitz, and I am the general manager of
LifeLock. LifeLock is the leading identity-theft protection service in
the U.S. and LifeLock is part of a larger company, Gen, a global
S&P 500 company that has over 500 million consumers that we
protect through our brands NortonLifeLock and Avast.
Fraud today is not just growing; it is accelerating at an unprece-
dented rate. You know, multiple people have highlighted statistics.
The statistics we have is that the American consumer lost $16.6
billion in reported losses last year. That is a 33-percent increase
year on year, and that translates into $51 for every person in this
country.
At LifeLock, we have sent over 81 million identity theft alerts,
and the number of Social Security numbers that are on the dark
web that are being exposed to breaches increased from 8 million to
300 million in just 1 year.
These are not just statistics. Behind these facts are seniors that
are losing their life savings, are young people whose financial fu-
tures are ruined before they even start their careers, and families
who are blindsided by fraud.
Fraud, unfortunately, does not discriminate. Young people get
victimized more frequently because they are online more often,
whereas seniors experience much larger fraud when it happens—
or much larger losses. The average senior lost $35,000 in reported
fraud, and, in total, seniors lost a staggering $5 billion.
Yet, despite these statistics, over two-thirds of seniors say that
they feel invincible, that they feel safe from the risks of fraud and
scams. This represents a huge disconnect between perception and
reality and artificial intelligence is only increasing this gap. In the
hands of criminal organizations, artificial intelligence is allowing
them to industrialize fraud, allowing them to make phishing emails
that are perfect, voice clones that are compelling, deepfakes that
can fool even the most sophisticated American citizen.
AI, on the other hand, is also our best defense against these
criminal organizations. At Gen, we use AI to go through millions
and millions of data points to detect fraud in real-time. We use it
to detect deepfakes and to protect consumers, to prevent scams
from ever getting to consumers in the first place but technology is
not enough. We also invest in education, in partnerships, and shar-
ing intelligence with law enforcement.
Congress has a critical role to play in this fight. Based on our
experience, we urge three primary priorities.
We have to stop fraud before it happens; raise awareness of the
threats through national education campaigns that focus on scams,
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00032 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
29
fraud, identity theft; modernize breach notifications; and invest in
public-private partnerships that raise digital literacy.
Two, we have to disrupt the scam supply chain. So the social
media networks, the companies, the data brokers that trade in per-
sonal information that are fueling the rise of scams, we need to
better regulate them and we need to empower our law enforcement
to be able to go after international organizations across borders,
give them the tools to be able to take down the infrastructure and
to be able to collaborate across countries.
Then, third, we need to empower victims and support local law
enforcement. Local law enforcement needs the education and the
tools to be able to deal with these types of scams and fraud and
victims need to be able to have a centralized repository of breaches
and actions that they can take to remediate and address when they
are victimized.
Fraud now represents a systemic threat to our digital economy
and to the trust that consumers have in their digital lives. To-
gether, government, industry, and civil society must work together
and collaborate to protect American families, restore confidence,
and secure the digital economy for every American.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Bednowitz follows:]
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
30
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 21 here 63431.021
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
31
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 22 here 63431.022
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
32
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 23 here 63431.023
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
33
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 24 here 63431.024
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
34
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 25 here 63431.025
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00038 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
35
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 26 here 63431.026
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
36
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 27 here 63431.027
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00040 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
37
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 28 here 63431.028
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00041 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
38
Chairman MEUSER. Thank you very, very much.
Ms. Griffin, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF KATE GRIFFIN, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL TASK
FORCE ON FRAUD AND SCAM PREVENTION, ASPEN INSTI-
TUTE FINANCIAL SECURITY PROGRAM
Ms. GRIFFIN. Chairman Meuser, Ranking Member Green, distin-
guished members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me.
My name is Kate Griffin, and I am director of the National Task
Force on Fraud and Scam Prevention at the Aspen Institute Finan-
cial Security Program.
Over the last year, hundreds of experts from more than 80 insti-
tutions, public and private, have spent thousands of hours together
to mount a coordinated defense against scams—the ability for
criminals to deploy sophisticated social-engineering techniques that
lure victims to send their hard-earned money.
As my colleagues have outlined, scams are a growing threat to
all of society. Every day, roughly 50,000 Americans become victims.
We believe one in five Americans have been affected to date and
these people are young and old, urban and rural, rich and poor. Ev-
eryone is at potential risk.
Because of this, every week, more than $2 billion is flowing out
of American pocketbooks and into the hands of foreign criminal en-
terprises, who use those funds to fuel other illicit crimes, including
drug and human trafficking. Research suggests that this scams in-
dustry now rivals the size of the illicit drug trade, and scam losses
reported to law enforcement have more than tripled since 2019.
Those reports, though, are only a fraction of what is really hap-
pening. In fact, the FTC has estimated that actual fraud-related
losses, accounting for this under-reporting, exceed $158 billion per
year.
The vectors of attack are varied, which is why we will talk about
this as an ecosystem or whole-of-society problem. Scammers target
victims on all of the core systems of American commerce and com-
munication: telecoms, messaging, digital platforms such as social
media or paid advertising, retail, and financial services spanning
banking, payments, fintech, crypto, and investments.
Most U.S. adults report receiving scam messages through those
means daily or weekly and those consumers are asking for your
help. They do not know where to turn.
Being tricked by a scammer to send money or provide access to
a financial account is the second-largest crime concern in the U.S.,
second only to identity theft. People are worried more about scams
than they are about violent crime or burglary and they rarely re-
port when it happens to law enforcement. In fact, most victims, 7
in 10, will report directly to their financial institution, while only
a small fraction of that will report to local law enforcement or a
Federal agency.
That is why preventing scams requires this whole-of-ecosystem
response. Leaders in our task force are very sophisticated fraud
fighters, but they are asking for help with scams. They have under-
scored the need for collaboration across all those sectors and the
desire for strong leadership from the Federal Government in doing
so. No single entity in the scam’s lifecycle can do this alone.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00042 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
39
We will have a detailed set of recommendations in a forthcoming
report from the task force in a few weeks which will provide a blue-
print for a national strategy to prevent scams.
A few highlights from that report include a call for bold govern-
ment leadership, which includes naming scams as a national pri-
ority, asking congressional leadership to mount a coordinated re-
sponse, and empowering leaders within government to marshal our
resources toward a coordinated response.
It will also require driving better law enforcement and intel-
ligence outcomes by providing top officials with clear anti-scam
goals and sufficient funding. We must enhance their powers to
prosecute while upgrading their capabilities. Criminals are using
the most sophisticated technologies, and so must we.
Of course, the private sector has a role to play as well. Specific
actions related to the private sector in the report will include
things like enacting robust anti-scam policies, strengthening sys-
tem defenses around the better vetting of platform users, investing
in cross-sector information exchanges, and improving the effective-
ness of just-in-time warnings and interventions.
In closing, I want to tell you how inspired I have been over the
last year by leaders in government and the private sector who are
committed to taking serious action.
The American public is asking all of us to take this seriously. Bi-
partisan majorities of U.S. adults say the Federal Government is
doing a bad job of handling online scam attacks and there is lots
of upside to working on this, not the least of which is returning
$158 billion a year to our economy.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Griffin follows:]
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00043 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
40
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 29 here 63431.029
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
41
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 30 here 63431.030
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00045 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
42
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 31 here 63431.031
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
43
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 32 here 63431.032
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00047 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
44
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 33 here 63431.033
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00048 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
45
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 34 here 63431.034
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00049 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
46
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 35 here 63431.035
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
47
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 36 here 63431.036
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00051 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
48
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 37 here 63431.037
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00052 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
49
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 38 here 63431.038
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00053 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
50
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 39 here 63431.039
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00054 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
51
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 40 here 63431.040
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00055 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
52
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 41 here 63431.041
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00056 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
53
Chairman MEUSER. Thank you very, very much. We look forward
to your report.
Ms. Sanchez-Adams, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF CARLA SANCHEZ-ADAMS, SENIOR ATTORNEY,
NATIONAL CONSUMER LAW CENTER
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Chairman Meuser, Ranking Member
Green, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity
to testify on behalf of the National Consumer Law Center’s low-in-
come clients.
Payment fraud is a national crisis demanding a national, holistic
response from our government. Payment fraud impacts all Ameri-
cans regardless of age, race, education, income, or political affili-
ation.
Now, technology has enabled criminal fraudsters to use older
forms of payment—like bank-to-bank wire transfers and checks—
to steal money, and these lack sufficient protections. Newer forms
of payment, such as peer-to-peer transactions and crypto transfers,
also enable criminals to steal and launder money in an easier form.
Payment fraud can be sorted into two buckets: unauthorized and
fraudulently induced.
Unauthorized transactions occur when a criminal fraudster initi-
ates a transaction on behalf of the victim but without their knowl-
edge or permission.
On the other hand, fraudulently induced transactions occur when
the consumer or the victim themselves initiates the transaction but
only as a result of a fraud scheme using deception or manipulation.
Now, as you have heard, criminal fraudsters, they spoof real
numbers of financial institutions via text message or phone call.
They use deepfakes, take over accounts through malware or
breaches, resort to manipulative psychological practices, and even
use violence to get victims to initiate payments.
Americans are plagued by both types of fraud, and we need to
address both if we are going to combat fraud and instill confidence
in our banking and payment systems but the responses that fraud
victims get vary greatly depending on the payment method used.
A victim’s best chance at getting their money back is if there was
an unauthorized breach of their accounts because of the strong pro-
tections of the Electronic Fund Transfer Act, or EFTA.
But EFTA’s Regulation E exempts certain wire transfers, leaving
victims with weak State laws, while electronic benefit transfer
(EBT) cards are unprotected entirely and if the transaction was
fraudulently induced, which you all call a scam, then usually the
victim is going to hear, ‘‘Sorry, there is nothing we can do,’’ because
there are no clear protections under the law.
We therefore need to update antiquated laws that offer little to
no protection to victims impacted by fraud. In this day and age,
where the vast majority of transactions occur online or through a
mobile app, it makes no sense that only some of these transactions
are covered by EFTA and not others.
We also need to update EFTA to include fraudulently induced
transfers, following the example of the U.K., which recently adopt-
ed rules reimbursing victims of authorized push-payment fraud,
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00057 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
54
with industry recognition that making consumers safe is central to
confidence in the payment systems.
Protecting victims should be central to any discussion about com-
bating fraud. We absolutely cannot push the burden of fraud en-
tirely onto its victims. Consumer education is important and nec-
essary, but it alone will not solve the problem of fraud, especially
with fraud schemes and technology that are ever evolving.
However, there are steps that we can collectively take to keep
the impacts of fraud on innocent consumers and even financial in-
stitutions to a minimum and to incentivize more effective use of in-
novation to prevent fraud and make our system safe.
I agree that telecommunication and social media companies must
take action to prevent fraud in the first instance, especially since
some know that they are carrying fraudulent traffic. If a criminal
fraudster cannot contact a victim through fake texts, spam calls, or
social media schemes, then the fraud cannot occur.
Payment systems and financial institutions must also bear great-
er responsibility in the fight against fraud. Criminal fraudsters
need a way to receive those stolen funds. If these criminals cannot
get access to our payment rails or deposit holding accounts, then
innocent victims will not lose money that way.
As such, we need a stronger focus on the know-your-customer ob-
ligations of the financial institution or payment provider that al-
lowed the fraudster or money mule to open an account and receive
the fraudulent funds.
Victims should be reimbursed by the banks, who, in turn, should
be reimbursed by the institution that received the fraudulent pay-
ment. If they bear liability, they will use more innovative tech-
nology to detect and stop fraud. This already happens on certain
payment networks when there are claims of unauthorized use.
Simultaneously, we must give innocent consumers the right to a
swift resolution if their funds are frozen or closed by overly aggres-
sive fraud reporting.
This is not the time to be weakening consumer protection or the
agencies that protect consumers. This CFPB was actively working
on addressing fraud but is now in tatters and Congress blocked the
CFPB from supervising peer-to-peer (P2P) apps, which would have
helped fraud victims and with the change in leadership, the CFPB
dismissed an enforcement action involving fraud on Zelle.
Meanwhile, President Trump has sparked an effort to reduce the
number of checks sent through the mail to and from the govern-
ment, which is incredibly important given the rash of check wash-
ing fraud, but people will not be comfortable making or receiving
electronic payments if fraud is rampant.
Moreover, we should not encourage the use of stablecoins, crypto
assets, and the crypto exchanges when they are a vector for fraud
and scams. These payment forms and systems cannot be outside of
our consumer protection laws.
Thank you, and I am happy to take any questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Sanchez-Adams follows:]
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00058 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
55
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 42 here 63431.042
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00059 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
56
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 43 here 63431.043
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00060 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
57
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 44 here 63431.044
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00061 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
58
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 45 here 63431.045
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00062 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
59
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 46 here 63431.046
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00063 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
60
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 47 here 63431.047
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00064 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
61
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 48 here 63431.048
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00065 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
62
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 49 here 63431.049
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00066 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
63
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 50 here 63431.050
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00067 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
64
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 51 here 63431.051
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00068 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
65
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 52 here 63431.052
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00069 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
66
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 53 here 63431.053
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00070 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
67
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 54 here 63431.054
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00071 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
68
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 55 here 63431.055
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00072 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
69
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 56 here 63431.056
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00073 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
70
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 57 here 63431.057
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00074 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
71
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 58 here 63431.058
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00075 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
72
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 59 here 63431.059
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00076 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
73
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 60 here 63431.060
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00077 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
74
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 61 here 63431.061
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00078 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
75
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 62 here 63431.062
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00079 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
76
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 63 here 63431.063
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00080 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
77
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 64 here 63431.064
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00081 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
78
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 65 here 63431.065
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00082 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
79
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 66 here 63431.066
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00083 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
80
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 67 here 63431.067
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00084 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
81
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 68 here 63431.068
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00085 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
82
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 69 here 63431.069
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00086 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
83
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 70 here 63431.070
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00087 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
84
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 71 here 63431.071
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00088 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
85
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 72 here 63431.072
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00089 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
86
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 73 here 63431.073
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00090 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
87
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 74 here 63431.074
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00091 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
88
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 75 here 63431.075
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00092 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
89
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 76 here 63431.076
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00093 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
90
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 77 here 63431.077
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00094 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
91
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 78 here 63431.078
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00095 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
92
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 79 here 63431.079
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00096 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
93
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 80 here 63431.080
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00097 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
94
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 81 here 63431.081
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00098 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
95
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 82 here 63431.082
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00099 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
96
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 83 here 63431.083
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00100 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
97
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 84 here 63431.084
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00101 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
98
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 85 here 63431.085
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00102 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
99
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 86 here 63431.086
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00103 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
100
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 87 here 63431.087
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00104 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
101
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 88 here 63431.088
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00105 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
102
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 89 here 63431.089
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00106 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
103
Chairman MEUSER. Thank you very much for your testimony.
We will now turn to member questions. The chair recognizes
himself for 5 minutes.
Fraud and scams are not new concepts. I am extremely con-
cerned by how rampant—as we all are—it has become in recent
years.
Ms. Griffin, I would like to start with you. Can you briefly ex-
plain the difference between fraud and a scam and then elabo-
rate—when you mentioned that fraud is a national security crisis,
who is behind the scams? Who is behind the fraud? Many think it
is lone actors. Others think, as you are expressing, it is criminal
networks. If you could expand, please.
Ms. GRIFFIN. Yes, absolutely.
Within the financial services ecosystem, a fraud occurs when the
customer has no knowledge or participation in the transaction. So,
if you buy a coffee on the street here in DC and simultaneously
your card is used to buy a computer in Texas, your financial insti-
tution says, ‘‘Hey, something is going on here that is not right,’’ but
you had no knowledge of that transaction.
In a scam, you have, perhaps, met someone online; you received
a phone call from someone you believe is the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation (FBI) asking you to move funds. You authorize that
transaction to your financial institution and are part of the process.
In that case, the financial institution has very different sets of in-
formation about what is happening in that transaction because you
have authorized it.
You ask about who is behind this. The ‘‘Annual Threat Assess-
ment of the U.S. Intelligence Community’’ has identified these
scams—authorized transactions—as part of a nexus of criminal ac-
tivity threatening the United States perpetuated by transnational
criminal organizations and state-affiliated groups that also engage
in human trafficking, drug trafficking, weapons and human smug-
gling.
North Korean hackers, Mexican cartels, Russian crime syn-
dicates, and triad gangs affiliated with the Chinese Communist
Party (CCP) are among the U.S. adversaries that are benefiting
from these crimes.
We also know that they are using human trafficking victims in
some places to commit those crimes. Scam compounds in Southeast
Asia may have as many as 400,000 enslaved people forced to com-
mit those scams against U.S. and other countries’ citizens.
Chairman MEUSER. Well, thank you. That is quite compelling.
Mr. Bednowitz, what are some of the explanations for the rise in
financial fraud and scams? You mentioned it is a 33-percent in-
crease, I think you said, over a 2-year period. I really appreciate
you saying these are not just statistics; these are people that are
truly being seriously victimized.
If you would, please.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Yes. Thank you for the question, Chairman.
There are three primary drivers of the increase in scams and
fraud over time.
Chairman MEUSER. Lean into the mic a little bit.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Oh, sorry.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00107 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
104
There are three primary drivers of the increase in scams and
fraud over time: the increase in data breaches, the industrialization
of fraud, and the rise of AI.
Data breaches have tripled since 2020, and that means there is
a plethora—this is according to the Interstate Technology & Regu-
latory Council (ITRC) and our own data. What that means is, there
are now billions and billions of pieces of personal information that
are exposed on the dark web that criminals can use to target peo-
ple—to target them with compelling messages from their banks,
target them with spoofed numbers. That information is very crit-
ical.
Then you take that—as Ms. Griffin said, it is no longer an indi-
vidual in a basement somewhere. You have criminal organizations
across the world that are professional, that have large staffs, at
times human-trafficked themselves, that are doing this and tar-
geting victims day-in and day-out.
Those two on their own are enough to drive the growth, but then
you take AI into it. I said AI was a double-edged sword. In the
hands of these organizations——
Chairman MEUSER. Right.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ [continuing]. you know, what would have taken
more time and cost to take that information that is out there in
the dark web and combine it with information from social media
and public internet, would be harder—that has become easier and
easier, so that no longer do we have the days of the Nigerian prince
scam with all of the spelling errors——
Chairman MEUSER. Right.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ [continuing]. but, instead, you have emails that
look like they are from your bank, that have your account number
in there, that have your name——
Chairman MEUSER. Right. Thank you. Great answers.
Mr. Benda, relatively quickly, the Office of Scam and Fraud Pre-
vention you brought up. There are a lot of discrepancies, whether
it is $12 billion, $16 billion of loss from these scammers and fraud
experts. Talk about that, how important that would be, to inter-
connect government agencies with them.
Mr. BENDA. Sure. I think the challenge we have—we have heard
that the numbers that Americans are experiencing scams could be
$100 billion, and yet you have to ask yourself the question, who is
in charge of scam and fraud prevention in the U.S. Government?
Is it the Treasury Department? Is it Department of Justice? Is it
Department of Commerce? We have no central point to report
these.
In fact, consumers are confused as to where they should even re-
port a scam or fraud. Should they report to the FBI? Should they
report to the CFPB? Should they report to FTC and others?
So having a central place where we could report this information,
that could be acted upon, to actually take action for the con-
sumer——
Chairman MEUSER. My apologies. We will have to finish this
later.
Mr. BENDA [continuing]. would be helpful.
Chairman MEUSER. My time has expired.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00108 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
105
We will now turn to the gentleman from California, Mr. Liccardo,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. LICCARDO. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, each one of you, for your testimony.
I wanted to ask one question and ask for hopefully the feedback
of each of you, if we can get it all done in 5 minutes. Let me de-
scribe the basis of the question.
We have been very active in this committee in attempting to set
up rules to govern cryptocurrency and that is long overdue. I think
many in the industry would agree that this is an area that needs
some settled regulation rather than regulation by litigation or
other approaches that have been taken in the past.
We know that trillions of dollars are transacted in centralized ex-
changes and decentralized protocols every year. That number is in-
creasing rapidly and with that quantity of exchange, obviously, to
the extent that particularly it is happening off of decentralized ex-
changes, there is increasing opportunity for fraud and for theft, as
well as money laundering and other kinds of criminal activity.
We have recently in the House of Representatives passed a bill,
the CLARITY Act, that governs what happens on centralized ex-
changes and perfectly or imperfectly, it has established know-your-
customer requirements, anti-money-laundering requirements, other
rules to establish centralized exchanges.
We know, increasingly, the activity is moving from centralized to
decentralized, to decentralized finance (DeFi) protocols and because
of pseudonym anonymity, the person on one end of the transaction
does not actually know the identity of the person at the other end
of the transaction. If they try to get a subpoena or they call the
FBI to say, ‘‘I was defrauded,’’ they cannot even find out who was
doing it.
So the question is, what do we do about DeFi? That was not ad-
dressed in the bill that passed through the House.
I am interested, Ms. Sanchez-Adams, do you have any particular
views?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Yes. As I mentioned in my testimony, I
think that, regardless of the market regulation and structure of the
bill, you have to protect consumers.
So, if you update or clarify—the CFPB can do it through guid-
ance, or you all can do it through legislation—that the EFTA ap-
plies to crypto transactions, then those platforms will be held re-
sponsible and liable when consumers are defrauded, especially if
you also update it to include fraudulently induced transactions.
Mr. LICCARDO. If it is off a platform, what do you do then?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. I mean, you mean if it is, like, from an
unhosted wallet?
Mr. LICCARDO. That is right.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Right. So, I mean, you can—I think that
there are problems with crypto and with the technology aside from
that, which I am happy to talk about at another point in time, but
I think you still hold them liable. They are the party or the entity
that is receiving the fraudulent fund.
If they are—unfortunately, it would be like I am acting in cash,
and I am transacting in cash, right? So, if I have an unhosted wal-
let that is being used to pay somebody else who has an unhosted
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00109 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
106
wallet, it is like I am giving them cash and so they cannot be regu-
lated the same way as a bank could be regulated, but they are still
subject to criminal fraud.
Mr. LICCARDO. Thank you.
Ms. Griffin?
Ms. GRIFFIN. Thank you for question. The forthcoming report will
have a number of recommendations related to this, one of which
will include establishing parity of law enforcement powers across
money movement, including the civil forfeiture of digital assets.
So some things about treating digital assets as cash for purposes
of the civil forfeiture of fungible property; clarifying U.S. Secret
Service authorities regarding those asset transactions—essentially,
how do we empower our law enforcement to be able to go after
when crypto is involved in the transaction.
I think the other element of this that has come up quite a bit
in the task force deliberations is also related to the risks posed by
crypto ATMs—ATMs that are placed in community stores, in nurs-
ing homes, in retirement homes, and where people are directed to
put their hard-earned cash into those ATMs for the purposes of
sending to criminals. That is an area where we think there is a
greater need for you all to be investigating.
Mr. LICCARDO. Thank you.
Mr. Bednowitz, you might have the last word.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Yes, so thank you for the question, and I will
be very brief.
I think, from our standpoint, I go back to what I said; I think
awareness is very, very important. Consumers are not aware of the
incredible risk that crypto poses. Crypto is at the heart of a lot of
different scams, because people get excited about the potential re-
turns, and they do not know when they send crypto to an indi-
vidual, what risks they are opening themselves up to.
So making people more aware of the risks of crypto and that they
should be much more thoughtful of when they are putting cash into
crypto and where they do that is very, very critical to combating
this issue.
Mr. LICCARDO. At the very least, we should be making them
aware if they are on a DeFi protocol as opposed to a centralized
exchange with those kinds of——
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. A hundred percent.
Mr. LICCARDO. Thank you very much for your testimony.
Thank you. I yield.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields.
The gentleman from Arkansas, Chairman Hill, who is our chair
of our full committee, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Chairman HILL. Thank you, Chairman.
Again, thanks to the panel. Great panel, good discussion.
I noted in my opening statement that our family was hit with
washed checks from the Postal Service, and—really offensive. I
want to credit my bank for finding it and recognizing the fraud and
stopping it and helping work with the FBI and the local police to
put the people in jail, which I was happy to do, but there are mil-
lions of people around the country that is not happening to. So this
is such an important hearing.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00110 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
107
Mr. Benda, I want to start with you and thanks for the ABA tak-
ing a keen interest in this.
All the comments I have heard are 100 percent true; there is just
not a way to get at this. It is a whack-a-mole situation, and we do
not have enough mole whackers working on it.
One of the things noted was, you said maybe $100 billion of
losses and one of my complaints is, we cannot measure or tackle
things we cannot see. I have argued that the bank call report
should break fraud losses out of other expenses and make it its
own line item.
Would you support that, Mr. Benda?
Mr. BENDA. I think it is important for us to track fraud and scam
losses in a consolidated manner. That would be one thing we would
be open to looking at doing.
Chairman HILL. Good. Thank you.
Also, this all-of-the-above law enforcement effort that it takes—
and all of you have kind of touched on that in your different re-
marks in answer to questions.
I went to Tyler, Texas, to look at the Tyler law enforcement cen-
ter that the State of Texas has set up there to combat debit fraud—
so, focused on debit skimming mostly at fuel pumps, operated by
cartel-related gangs across Texas. Millions of dollars are lost per
month. The card issuers are the eaters of those losses, not the mer-
chants, generally.
What should we ask merchants to do in terms of 24-hour, 7-day-
a-week, microscopic telecommunications pump point-of-sale fraud?
You mentioned ATMs, a similar issue to prevent skimming.
Who wants to tackle that question?
Ms. Griffin, do you want to tackle that?
Ms. GRIFFIN. I think the only thing I will say is, we have a num-
ber of members in the task force, I know, that have been working
on this issue, both related to EBT cards, as Ms. Sanchez-Adams
brought up, as well as other types of transactions.
There are increasing and emerging technologies they can use at
the point-of-sale devices to detect when a skimming device has
been put there——
Chairman HILL. Yes.
Ms. GRIFFIN [continuing]. and more investment in that is needed.
Chairman HILL. The technology I saw is smaller than my little
fingernail. It is inserted in the skimmer, both at point-of-sale at re-
tail and at a gas pump and it is downloaded by Bluetooth to the
criminal who just walks by the pumps on a regular retrieval basis.
This is not your grandmother’s fraud, like you are all making the
comments. This is super-sophisticated.
Attorney General Tim Griffin in my State has set up a Financial
Fraud Task Force to bring all the forces together in Arkansas to
combat this—text, phone, mail, check, the whole effort. So I really
commend him for that.
Ms. Griffin, I wonder what your view is of how those stake-
holders should try to work together on a national basis to do best
practices.
In my example in Arkansas, tens of thousands of dollars are
missing: $1.5 million out of my post office just in my little neigh-
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00111 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
108
borhood was the publicly reported number. We have one postal in-
spector for the State of Arkansas, 3.4 million people.
So can you comment on the role of the FBI, the U.S. Postal Serv-
ice, and other law enforcement?
Thank you, Ms. Griffin. Please.
Ms. GRIFFIN. Yes. Thank you.
First of all, those agencies were all very active at our table. Lots
of dedicated leaders focus on this and one thing that we heard
quite often is that the collaboration around scams is a side-of-the-
desk activity. There is not a directive from the top that anti-scam
activity is a leading priority for law enforcement.
One of the actions that we believe can be facilitated by naming
scams as a national priority to mount a coordinated response is to
direct law enforcement to create greater resources toward those
kinds of collaborations, because, as you rightly mention, they will
yield benefits.
Chairman HILL. Yes.
It is a cross-Congress problem. I mean, we do not control the
FTC on this committee, and yet the FTC and the Federal Commu-
nications Commission (FCC) should be very involved here due to
the transmission means that you have all addressed, like in tele-
communication-based scams, which is the fastest-growing, the most
accurate. You have all testified to that. So I think we have to link
the financial services industry with the transmission capabilities,
which is mail and telephone and text and internet.
So I want to thank the panel.
Mr. Meuser, thank you for a great hearing, and I yield back.
Chairman MEUSER. The chairman yields back.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, who is the ranking mem-
ber of Oversight and Investigations, is now recognized for 5 min-
utes.
Mr. GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And, again, I thank the witnesses for appearing.
Let me start with a basic premise, and this premise is that con-
sumers need all of the help they can get from whatever agencies
are available to them, including the Consumer Financial Protection
Bureau, which is currently under assault.
Currently, an effort is afoot to remove some 1,500 of the per-
sonnel from the CFPB. This would be tantamount to removing
about 90 percent of the staff. Consumers need all the help they can
get, at a time when this President is eviscerating the Consumer Fi-
nancial Protection Bureau.
Now, Ms. Sanchez, you made a comment earlier—Sanchez-
Adams—about the CFPB. Some of what my colleagues, my friends,
as witnesses, are calling to our attention are things that the CFPB
could be associated with. If needed, we could expand what the
CFPB can do. Someone said, we need a central point of contact for
consumers. Well, that sounds like a Consumer Financial Protection
Bureau, which is being eviscerated.
This hearing is quite amazing to me. We want to help con-
sumers, by some standards—not mine—by eviscerating the agency
that helps consumers.
Ms. Sanchez-Adams, would you kindly respond?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Yes. I agree.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00112 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
109
The CFPB, in January 2025, entered a consent order against
Block, which is the owner of Cash App, for fraud that was hap-
pening there. They were not investigating properly unauthorized-
use claims under EFTA. That was one of the violations, as well as
a lot of other promises about a system that was safe and was sup-
posed to protect them.
Now, under that order, they are supposed to receive—consumers
and victims who were impacted by unauthorized use, that should
have already gotten their money back, are supposed to get $120
million in redress. However, they have not received a penny yet.
I think part of that is, there is a reduced workforce that is not
able to do the work that it is supposed to be doing for that reason.
So I agree with you that we need to restore the strength of the
CFPB.
Mr. GREEN. Yes.
You mentioned Zelle. Explain.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Yes, so they had also—in I believe it was
December 2024, they had filed a suit against Zelle for similar in-
fractions. So they also were not responding to the EFTA unauthor-
ized use claims properly, timely, reimbursing impacted victims.
Also, they knew before it was time to launch the product that it
was not yet safe and did not have all the guardrails that it may
now have in place at the time, because they did not want to lose
market share. So the claim in the petition is that they launched
it before it was safe, as a violation of the Consumer Financial Pro-
tection Act (CFPA).
Unfortunately, as I mentioned in my testimony, with the change
of leadership at the Bureau, that suit was dismissed, though it was
picked up by the New York Attorney General’s Office.
Mr. GREEN. Are you familiar with the Townstone Financial case?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Yes.
Mr. GREEN. Okay. This is invidious discrimination against Black
people. Settlement was at hand. Tell us what happened, please.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Yes, in that case, there was actually a
court order, and they were ordered to pay back money. The Bureau
decided it did not want to pay that money out or to enforce that
order and they wanted to vacate that order, and the court did not
allow them to do so.
Mr. GREEN. What signal are we sending to consumers when we
complain about the atrocities that they have to suffer and we elimi-
nate the agency that is there to help them? What is the signal that
we are sending, please?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. That we do not care about them.
Mr. GREEN. If we cared about consumers, would we eviscerate
the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Not in my opinion.
Mr. GREEN. What could we do to strengthen it, in your opinion?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. We do need to restore the funding so that
it is able to function the way that Congress designed it to function
under the Dodd-Frank Act. We also should not eliminate the work-
force that is there to do the job of protecting American consumers.
Mr. GREEN. This is another example of how the President creates
a problem and then decides that he will solve the problem with the
solution that was already there. This is unbelievable that we would
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00113 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
110
find ourselves now eviscerating the Consumer Financial Protection
Bureau and saying that consumers need protection.
I yield back.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields.
The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Loudermilk, is now recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Before I get on with my main line of questioning—Ms. Benda?
No? Oh, Mr. Benda. I am sorry. Yes. My apologies. Ms. Sanchez-
Adams suggested simply shifting losses from one party to another.
What would this do in practice?
Mr. BENDA. I think we can see an example of that in the U.K.
They have a reimbursement framework that she mentioned. If a
consumer is fraudulently induced of transferring a payment, they
are liable to reimburse, up to 85,000 pounds.
So the hope was that this was going to greatly reduce the
amount of scams and fraud out there, spur investment. What un-
fortunately has happened is that—banks had already heavily in-
vested in anti-fraud and anti-scam protections; scam losses only
went down by 11⁄2 percent.
The challenge that it would create for banks, though, here in the
U.S. is, not only would it not necessarily reduce scam losses, but
it would also put banks in the uncomfortable position of trying to
tell American consumers how they can and cannot spend their
money.
We talk about sending—we do not want people to send money to
someone they do not know and trust. By the time they are ready
to make that payment, they believe they know and trust who they
are talking to. We have countless stories where you can talk to a
family member that could not convince someone not to send money
and now you are going to have a bank teller that is going to be re-
sponsible for making that decision?
We do not believe that Americans want banks telling them who
they can and cannot send money to.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. Okay.
While I have you, Mr. Benda—I apologize—the Georgia Bankers
Association brought something to our attention earlier this year. As
the chairman of the full committee, Chairman Hill, brought up, we
also in Georgia have had a big issue with check washing, especially
through the post office—stealing of checks. I mean, hundreds of
thousands of dollars have been fraudulently stolen that way.
They brought up a scenario where the fraudster or the criminal
would go to a nonlocal bank and, most likely using fraudulent iden-
tification, would open a bank account, and that would pass the
know-your-customer standards. Then they would take these fraud-
ulent checks and deposit those in that bank but instead of the Big
Bank putting a hold on the check, they are paying those checks
and clearing them.
Is that a problem that you have been aware of? Is this something
that would be an easy fix of requiring the banks to hold the
checks?
Mr. BENDA. So check fraud is a very substantial problem that
does not appear to be going away.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00114 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
111
We have a lot of challenges right now with fake IDs that are out
there. If anyone has a college-age student, they know that it is rel-
atively easy. AI is now allowing criminals to generate very real-
istic-looking statements from a utility company, from a telephone
company.
So banks are really struggling with, when the documents being
used to open an account look completely legitimate and in many
cases pass through certain verification procedures, they will open
up those accounts. So what we train banks to do is look at the age
of the account, look at the holistic nature of what is being done,
what is the pattern of deposits.
So banks would like more flexibility, quite frankly, on being able
to hold those checks. Certain checks have certain timelines and
when they have to release the funds, such as a Treasury check. So
we would be very open to having a discussion of how we could in-
crease those hold times appropriately when fraud is suspected and
that is something our members would be very interested in.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. Okay. Thank you for that.
In your testimony, you mentioned that criminals effectively took
advantage of the economic devastation during Coronavirus disease
2019 (COVID–19), especially the unprecedented government re-
sponse to support small business and out-of-work Americans.
How has the COVID–19 pandemic had a lasting effect on fraud?
Mr. BENDA. Well, and I think Mr. Bednowitz mentioned that the
identity theft that is out there.
Let me give you the example. We talked about that trust issue
that the scammers built. If you get a phone call that comes in, it
shows the number on the caller ID of your bank, and they say, ‘‘Mr.
Loudermilk, is this you? Do you live at this address? Is this the
last four of your Social Security number? Can I talk to you about
some potential suspicious transactions on your account?’’
The vast majority of Americans do not realize that all that infor-
mation is out there, do not realize their phone number can be
spoofed—that the bank phone number can be spoofed, and they are
going to believe they are talking to their bank, and they are going
to give up that information.
That is the challenge that we face. We face a very sophisticated
criminal adversary that is leveraging the loss of all that informa-
tion and the technology available to them to steal from American
consumers.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. Has the pandemic actually helped create new
criminal networks?
Mr. BENDA. I believe so. What we have seen is, the unemploy-
ment insurance fraud created that market for the personally identi-
fiable information, but it also created a belief that this white-collar
crime does not get enforced. So check fraud vastly increased after
2020; identity theft increased after 2020.
These white-collar financial crimes have vastly gone up. Unfortu-
nately, enforcement, due to lack of resources, simply has not kept
up.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. Okay.
I see my time has expired, and I yield back.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields back.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00115 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
112
The gentlewoman from California, Ms. Waters, who is also the
ranking member of the full committee, is now recognized for 5 min-
utes.
Ms. WATERS. Thank you very much.
Let me just start by saying, Donald Trump is the most pro-
found—pro-fraud President in history. He dismantled the CFPB,
rolled back protections, and dropped lawsuits against Big Banks
and crypto scammers, making it easier to basically scam retirees,
students, and working Americans.
He is $7.7 billion richer and continues profiting off the Presi-
dency at the expense of constituents. Under his watch, fraud tar-
geting American consumers has soared, from meme-coin pump-and-
dump schemes to insider trading linked to his own tariff announce-
ments.
Ms. Sanchez-Adams, earlier this year, Trump’s CFPB, since he
took it over, dropped a lawsuit that the agency previously filed
against Zelle, Bank of America, JPMorganChase, and Wells Fargo,
where they found hundreds of thousands of consumers lost nearly
$1 billion through various payment fraud schemes.
With enforcement cases like this being dropped by the Trump
Administration, how will these harmed consumers get their money
back?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. That is a great question. Thank you for
that question.
Unfortunately, right now, they are relying on their State regu-
lators to pursue that enforcement. As I mentioned earlier, the New
York AG filed suit against Zelle for the same actions, but that is
only protecting New Yorkers, and the rest of the country also needs
protection. You do not want to hear from your constituents, ‘‘Why
are not you doing anything? New York is doing something, but we
are not doing anything.’’
So that would be one answer, is that we need more protection by
the CFPB, more enforcement, instead of dropped suits.
Ms. WATERS. Well, let me just say that this hearing is a sham.
Committee Republicans are defunding the very agencies designed
to protect consumers and oversee the financial system.
Just 2 months ago, Republicans voted to eliminate half of the
CFPB’s budget—you heard all that discussion this morning—all
while rejecting every attempt by Democrats to rein in Trump’s
crypto fraud. Instead of protecting consumers, committee Repub-
licans have chosen to enable scams and defend Trump’s fraud-first
agenda.
What can we expect further from the CFPB that has now been
reduced to practically nothing, with all of the layoffs and firings,
et cetera, et cetera? What can we expect them to do? How much
more harm can they rain on the American people?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Thank you for that question.
Unfortunately, taking steps to deregulate the industries that
pose a threat and harm consumers is not the right step to take,
and I hope that is not what continues. I hope that they do not bend
to the pressures of industry to let them do what they want and con-
tinue to harm consumers.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00116 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
113
I hope that they do continue to enforce laws, and I hope that
they continue to do supervision like they are supposed to do, in-
stead of weakening their efforts to protect consumers.
Ms. WATERS. Would you agree that the way that they have de-
fined this hearing, ‘‘Fraud in Focus: Exposing Financial Threats to
American Families,’’ is misleading?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. I hope that we are taking steps to protect
families against fraud and not just paying lip service.
Ms. WATERS. Having a hearing like this, where the opposite side
of the aisle is talking about ‘‘fraud in focus,’’ again, ‘‘exposing finan-
cial threats to American families,’’ do you think that, based on
some of the comments that I have made about the Consumer Fi-
nancial Protection Bureau and others—I was one of the ones sitting
on the conference committee of Dodd-Frank reform when we actu-
ally got some protection from consumers with the CFPB—do you
think that I have at all missed, somehow, defining correctly what
has happened to the CFPB?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. No. I think it is accurate that they are not
doing the job that they were ordered by Congress to do; they are
not currently protecting consumers against harm.
Ms. WATERS. Is there anything that you think they can say to
deny anything that I have said?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. No. I just hope that Congress restores their
funding and they hire their employees back so that they can get
back to doing their job.
Ms. WATERS. Thank you very much.
I yield back.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentlelady yields back.
The gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Ogles, is now recognized for
5 minutes.
Mr. OGLES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Benda, the banking industry has reported that fraudulent
ads purchased through Google and Meta are being used to imper-
sonate legitimate financial institutions, tricking families into hand-
ing over sensitive credentials and wiring away their life savings,
otherwise known as ‘‘malvertising.’’
When banks flag these ads, what specific obstacles do you face
enforcing Big Tech to remove them quickly and are these platforms
effectively profiting while dragging their feet on takedowns?
Mr. BENDA. Thank you for the question.
So I think that what we are seeing is significant levels of prof-
iting from these ads. The best source we have is a Wall Street
Journal article that said Meta earns $160 billion from ads. They
estimated 70 percent of those ads were either illicit or poor goods
or fraudulent ads.
It can take 8 to 32 strikes to take down an ad and so you can
imagine someone reporting something 25 times is not sufficient; it
has to be 30.
So, I would say, not all social media companies are the same.
Google is an example, I think, of a company that is improving.
They have a Priority Flagger program where they partner with fi-
nancial institutions to report things. During the pilot, they took
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00117 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
114
down ads with—they took down around 97 percent of the ads that
were reported within a very quick timeframe.
We think that type of activity needs to be done across all social
media platforms, whether voluntarily or mandated but we also
think user-sponsored content, which the Google Priority platform
does not account for, needs to have a way to be examined when
they are portraying themselves as a financial services company and
luring people into scams.
Mr. OGLES. Just to clarify, you said Meta, $160 billion, roughly
70 percent was fraudulent?
Mr. BENDA. That is what The Wall Street Journal reported, sir.
Mr. OGLES. Goodness.
Ms. Griffin, the GAO has found that responsibility for countering
scams is spread across 13 Federal agencies, with no real coordi-
nated strategy.
Given that malvertising on Google and Meta is now a common
vector for fraud, should national anti-fraud strategy explicitly in-
clude requirements for these platforms to vet and verify financial
advertisers before an ad ever goes live?
Ms. GRIFFIN. Thank you for that question.
One of the things that was clear in the conversations we had
among the task force members, which included the companies we
are talking about today, is that there are very different business
incentives and legal and regulatory requirements across these dif-
ferent sectors.
We believe that there is an important step to take that outlines
the private-sector expectations or responsibilities that companies
have for scam prevention and combine that with Good Samaritan
legal safe harbors when firms act in good faith to prevent scams.
Doing so, I think, would go a long way toward creating a better
playing field for all of these different sectors at the table.
Mr. OGLES. Mr. Bednowitz, your company specializes in moni-
toring and protecting consumers against identity theft. From your
vantage point, how often do victims first encounter fraud by
clicking a fraudulent search and/or social media promotion?
Given the sophistication of AI-generated scams, do you believe
that Google and Meta’s so-called consumer education efforts are
keeping pace with the real threat, or are they leaving Americans
to fend for themselves?
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Yes. Thank you for the question, and it is a very
good one.
I am looking at data here. From our own protection, we see that
63 percent of scam-related threats were observed on Facebook, 22
percent on YouTube and criminals are using AI-generated personas
and deepfakes to make these scams appear legitimate, like what
we are talking about here.
There is also another vector of threat from the social media com-
panies by them encouraging people that it is in their best interest
for people to have their information publicly and people do not real-
ize that they hide privacy controls. The more information that is
out there, the easier that criminals can take advantage of that and
use that with AI to put together sophisticated profiles that allow
them to target people in the most personalized ways possible.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00118 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
115
Mr. OGLES. Well, I want to caution, you know, when you are a
hammer—i.e., the Federal Government—everything looks like a
nail. The last thing I want is more government, which is why I
supported gutting the CFPB. In fact, in a hearing, I said, ‘‘To be
or not to be,’’ and I said the one agency that deserves to die the
most painful death is, in fact, the CFPB because of the regulatory
restraints they were putting on small banks.
That being said, when you look at this issue, the crisis at hand,
especially the seniors but in general the scams and the loss of
funds, Mr. Benda, what can we do—and we have 28 seconds—what
can we do to fix this?
Mr. BENDA. I think one of the things that is critical is to have
a takedown process. We recognize these ads are up there. When
someone is being impersonated, say, your local banker, and it is
scamming people into crypto schemes that need to be taken down
and need to be taken down quickly. At a minimum——
Mr. OGLES. Mr. Bednowitz, you will get the last word.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. I agree with what Mr. Benda is saying. There
needs to be vetting of the advertisers on the platform and then also
pressure to make privacy controls more transparent to the con-
sumer.
Mr. OGLES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to the witnesses. You all have a great day.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields back.
The gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Fields, is now recognized for
5 minutes.
Mr. FIELDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Acting Ranking Member.
Let me thank all the guests who are here today as well.
In Louisiana, we have been faced with a different type of fraud.
We have had—and it is not just the elderly; it is all ages—where
a person or group of people will send a text message. The most re-
cent was a text message reportedly from the DMV saying you have
to pay a fine, a ticket that happened whenever ago, or you will lose
your driving privileges, and they give them a certain time.
I have the email here. Actually, they sent it by text, but it is
from an email and the attorney general, obviously, went to work
to try to find out the origin of this bad email but there were just
good people, young, old, all races of life, all walks of life, and many
of them were responding.
What can we do to figure out where the emails come from? Do
we have a system in place to do that? That is for all of you.
Because it is hitting our State hard, and it is just paining to hear
constituents call and say, ‘‘Should I pay this ticket? I do not re-
member it, but should I pay it?’’ and then you say, ‘‘It is a scam,’’
you know?
What can we do?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. I am happy to take that question, because
I have gotten the same text message over and over again.
So part of it is, as we put in our paper, in our written testimony,
we have recommendations that tell communication companies what
they should do to prevent those types of text messages from hitting
consumers. They should do the same thing that banks do of know-
ing your customer. They should do the exact same thing.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00119 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
116
As I mentioned, they know when they are trafficking fraudulent
activity; they just do not have the incentive to stop that, which is
why we think the FCC and Congress should act to require higher
and stiffer penalties. I know that is outside of this committee.
I think we should not wait for them to act; this committee can
also act. Part of that is my recommendation that consumers are
also made whole and that they are reimbursed for fraudulently in-
duced payments.
We need to have everybody acting to protect consumers.
Mr. FIELDS. Good.
Ms. GRIFFIN. I would like to add to that. Thank you for the ques-
tion. Certainly, that particular text message is one we are all famil-
iar with.
We spend a lot of time in our task force really talking about the
interface between the private sector and law enforcement and their
ability to share information with one another about things like this
that would create better information for law enforcement to act and
better information across the private sector so that, for example, if
someone acting on that text message directed their financial insti-
tution to send a payment, the financial institution might have in-
formation that helps to disrupt or stop that payment.
There are not clear, easy protocols right now for law enforcement
and the private sector to be sharing that data. It is a critical ele-
ment that we will be talking about more in the forthcoming report.
Often, in fact, those things are done manually. We heard tales of
stacks and stacks of PDF files, with hundreds of pages of raw data
and knowing what we know about the ways that we have techno-
logically to be able to share that data, it is an issue that I think
we can make some real progress on to be able to strengthen every-
one’s ability to act.
Mr. FIELDS. Thank you.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Thank you for the question.
I would say, there are two ways that we can address this, and
I look at this from the consumer angle.
One is awareness, and I come back to this a lot. If people have
vigilance—we have to tell people that they can no longer trust com-
munications coming from SMS, email, or phone. Anything that
comes, they need to go and verify that. They need to stop, breathe,
verify.
The other thing that I would say is, there are solutions in the
private sector that can help, that can scan people’s emails, texts,
and block their phone calls so that these things—they get warnings
or they get blocked before it ever reaches them.
There are interfaces that have AI to be able to battle AI, that
they can take these communications, put them in, that are trained
on millions and millions of scam emails, to say, hey, is this a scam
or not? So they also need that level of protection. In a world where
the scammers have AI, we need consumers to have AI to defend
them as well.
Mr. FIELDS. I am out of time, but I would love to hear your re-
sponse.
Thank you, I will yield back the balance.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields back.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00120 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
117
The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Haridopolos, is now recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. HARIDOPOLOS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I first want to express my gratitude to our sheriff back at home,
Sheriff Wayne Ivey. He has been very aggressive in getting out the
information. As I think everyone in the room knows, this is all
about prevention, because the odds of catching these characters are
very, very low. It is great to see law enforcement leaders like my
sheriff, Sheriff Ivey, getting out there, using social media for a
positive, and making sure that people recognize these scams, as
each of you are talking about, so that we do not even have these
problems to deal with in the first place, because people are aware
and I think they are making smarter decisions.
I actually talked to one of my friends today, talking about a fi-
nancial issue. He said, ‘‘Can you please give me a call? I want to
make sure it is you asking me this question.’’ I think that this is
a lot of the things that we are going through in this real-life world.
So I really applaud the locals getting into that.
Ms. Griffin, I would like to ask you first question. I would like
to focus on your work with the National Task Force on Fraud and
Scam Prevention, which I understand is a working group with law
enforcement.
How do Federal, State, and local groups work together so we do
not have these different silos, but they actually work in concert, so
we are not wasting resources and getting this broad message
across?
Ms. GRIFFIN. Absolutely. Thank you very much for the question.
I just have nothing but praise for the dedication and passion of law
enforcement agents working on this issue across local, State, and
Federal agencies.
We heard multiple instances of local task forces where that, sort
of, multiplicity of agencies were working together in a local commu-
nity both to try to deconflict cases and to try to raise awareness
in those communities but I cannot stress enough how often we also
heard that this was a side-of-the-desk activity, that this was hap-
pening in off-hours through the passion and dedication of those
agents and not because anti-scam efforts were a dedicated priority
of the agencies in question.
We also heard that there is a greater need for more training of
local law enforcement agents on how to work with scam victims, so
that when a victim does come forward to local law enforcement,
which is rare, they are treating that victim in a way that, A, shows
compassion, but, B, is able to elicit the information that we need
in order to go after those criminals.
Mr. HARIDOPOLOS. Well, thank you.
I will build on the question. I know—just recently, I spoke about
it with my other sheriff down in Indian River County, Sheriff Flow-
ers. Almost daily, he has people coming in saying, ‘‘I thought this
person was this person versus that person,’’ and tens of thousands
of dollars. This is not a small scam. This is a serious number, at
least in the communities that we are living in.
So how do those local sheriffs share information, Ms. Griffin,
across the jurisdiction so that one can quickly get the scam out
there?
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00121 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
118
I know, whenever I get the oddball text, I will often go to one
of my search engines and say, is this number real, is this real?
How do we make sure that, once we see a small activity—maybe
others can chime in on this as well—that we quickly get the infor-
mation, so we stop that scam in its tracks and people are alert
enough to say, is this real or not?
Ms. GRIFFIN. Yes. No, it is a great question. There are multiple
resources available for consumers, but the fact that there are mul-
tiple resources available for consumers then makes it also sort of
a noisy environment. Where do consumers turn to is a real ques-
tion, I think, that we need to solve for.
There are also not always easy ways for law enforcement to know
what to do in that scenario. We talked earlier today about how the
criminals who are perpetrating these crimes are often representa-
tives of foreign criminal enterprises, and so the jurisdiction of local
law enforcement is quite limited in that case. So their ability to
then liaise effectively with Federal agents who can take action is
something that we need to create more strategic and streamlined
pathways for them to do so.
Mr. HARIDOPOLOS. Well, thanks, Ms. Griffin.
I will just close with this, Mr. Chairman. I really applaud my
local sheriffs, Sheriff Ivey and Sheriff Flowers. They are really ag-
gressive getting out there in their local community, and I am glad
that we are raising this awareness. That is probably the biggest
weapon we have.
As you mentioned, Ms. Griffin, so many of these criminal syn-
dicates are not within the borders of the United States, and the
likelihood of recovering these dollars is very, very slim, given the
realities of these crimes.
I think—I know that some folks have talked about the CFPB get-
ting involved in this issue. This is a front-end issue. This is not a
back-end issue. The likelihood of us, kind of, coming through with
some government agency to recover these are probably pretty slim
but I hope that we can use the coordinated efforts for the future
so that, when one scam happens, we can use the power of the inter-
net in positive ways so that people realize, if you see this number,
beware.
These are just the challenges of the day. It is frustrating. We
have so many great innovations coming with social media, but
these are clearly one of the detractions from it.
So, with that, Mr. Chairman, thank you for highlighting this
issue. It is a huge issue, unfortunately, in our district and the fact
that you are bringing this to people’s attention will probably save
a lot of folks a lot of money.
Thank you.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman’s remarks are appreciated.
The gentleman yields.
The gentlewoman from Georgia, Ms. Williams, is now recognized
for 5 minutes.
Ms. WILLIAMS of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to all of our witnesses today for your testimony and
being here.
I appreciate my Republican colleagues for focusing on this hear-
ing and exposing financial threats and potential solutions to fight
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00122 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
119
off fraudsters in this space. Y’all, I do need to point out that we
had an independent watchdog that helped to protect consumers
and deliver dollars back to constituents, and it was the Consumer
Financial Protection Bureau, but my Republican colleagues decided
in the billionaire bailout bill to reduce funding for the CFPB, leav-
ing opportunities for fraudsters to flourish.
Since Acting Director Vought’s takeover of the CFPB, ongoing
cases to hold financial institutions accountable for deceptive prac-
tices have been dropped. Many of the rules that were either pro-
posed or implemented by former Director Chopra have been
dropped as well, all of which were aimed at helping consumers find
relief and the most baffling: It is mid-September, y’all, and we still
have no clue when the Acting Director is going to testify in front
of the full committee. Perhaps I missed the memo, but what we are
focused on today is—or, my focus today is on the consumer. The
billionaire bailout budget opened the door for scammers, a poisoned
CFPB, and pivoting from the previous administration’s
rulemakings that put consumers over schemers.
Y’all, the schemers are real. I just heard this week a news report
down in Columbus, Georgia, where the local sheriff’s office, work-
ing with the FBI, was at point-of-sale transactions at Target,
Walmart, gas stations, pulling the skimmers from the machines,
because people’s cards were being cloned and purchases being
made all over the country.
Then, of course, we are all too familiar with, like my colleague
from Louisiana stated, those text messages, where even my 10-
year-old son, Carter, is like, ‘‘Mommy, I do not drive a car. What
do they mean, they are going to take my driver’s license if I do not
pay?’’ This is rampant across the board but because of these reduc-
tions at the CFPB and all of the changes, I am going to use this
time to remind the American people how this administration is
prioritizing scammers and fraudsters and hurting our constituents.
Ms. Carla Sanchez-Adams, last December, the CFPB announced
at the time that they were distributing $1.8 billion—with a ‘‘B,’’ bil-
lion dollars—to 4.3 million consumers, including $103 million deliv-
ered to Georgia, for consumers that were harmed by a group of
predatory credit-repair companies. That is real money. This was
the largest-ever distribution from the Bureau’s victim relief fund in
history, and I applaud the Bureau for acting against these scams,
but I think we know that there are still widespread financial scams
like this that are still ripping off American consumers.
Ms. Sanchez-Adams, have you heard of this type of financial
scheme and is this the type of scam impacting customers that you
work with?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Yes. So ‘‘credit-repair’’ organizations, quote/
unquote, do charge consumers to help them fix their credit. Often,
they actually charge and collect that money before actually doing
anything to help address some of the credit issues, or they make
false promises that they can do something that they cannot actu-
ally do. It is indeed a big problem, and I agree with that.
I also just want to take this moment to respond to something
that was said, that, like, fraud and scams is a front-end issue and
not a back-end issue. I take issue with that, because fraud encom-
passes both scams and also unauthorized use. I hear so many cases
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00123 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
120
where consumers are being impacted by unauthorized use, mean-
ing someone takes over their account, someone initiates a trans-
action without them knowing about it, and yet their banks are not
making them whole, even though under the law they are supposed
to not just banks, but P2P apps, which is what the Zelle lawsuit
and the Cash App lawsuit were about.
That is supervision. That is the Bureau stepping in and saying,
‘‘Hey, you guys are not complying with the law. You are supposed
to be protecting consumers.’’
So I just wanted to clear that up.
Ms. WILLIAMS of Georgia. Thank you for that.
Building upon that and the conversation around the predatory
practices around cleaning up your credit reports, do you think
there is an opportunity for Congress to crack down on these scams
and better protect consumers who are trying to get their financial
lives back on track and just trying to live in this economy?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Yes.
Ms. WILLIAMS of Georgia. Ms. Sanchez, I ask because, as some-
one who spent years paying off my student loans—they are done,
y’all. I owe zero student loans.
My husband, that is another story, Chairman Meuser. We are
still working on his, but I spent years paying off my student loans.
I understand how important it is to understand debt and building
creditworthiness. It is still an important issue, to fight off preda-
tory actors in the credit repair space.
I remember, during my first term in Congress, when we were in
the majority, then-Chairwoman Waters would hold hearings and
testimony from the CEOs of the largest banks. We have not had
that in a while, so I hope that is coming.
I see that I am coming up on time, so, Mr. Chairman, I want to
leave this last question on the record to get a written response.
What do you say to consumers who the banking industry has
failed and who have relied on the CFPB as the final course of ac-
tion when all else has failed them?
I would love to get that on the record in writing.
[The information referred to can be found in the appendix on
page 190.]
Ms. WILLIAMS of Georgia. Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman MEUSER. Okay. The gentlelady yields.
The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Moore, is now recog-
nized for 5 minutes.
Mr. MOORE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Financial fraud is touching every corner of our society, and no
demographic is immune. This is not a Republican issue, a Demo-
cratic issue. This is an issue that impacts everyone.
From sophisticated AI-driven scams to check washing, you name
it, criminals are stealing billions from seniors, veterans, working
families, really anybody. I know of stories where these crimes have
drained retirement accounts, wiped out savings, and really, if not
put in check in some way, erode our financial system.
Ms. Griffin, what I would just ask you is: From your experience,
who would you say, who is most at risk of fraud today: seniors,
young people, small business, and then, are you seeing any par-
ticular types of scams being targeted at any of these groups?
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00124 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
121
Ms. GRIFFIN. Yes. No. It is such an important question, because,
really interestingly, in the survey data that we have been ana-
lyzing, there are no discernable demographic differences among the
victims.
Mr. MOORE. Huh.
Ms. GRIFFIN. It is perhaps one of the only social problems we
have in America with that characteristic. Young and old, urban
and rural, different geographies, different races, different in-
comes—everyone is at equal risk of being impacted by this issue.
I would say, the only other discernable difference is that older
Americans lose more money, and I think that is largely a result of
them having had more time in their lives to accumulate more
money to steal.
Mr. MOORE. The scope of this problem is really staggering. In
2024 alone, the FTC reported that 2.6 million consumers reported
being victims of fraud, with a combined loss of a staggering $12.5
billion. As our witnesses have testified before, we expect the true
monetary impact of fraud to be much higher because of non-report-
ing, et cetera.
Mr. Benda, community banks and credit unions, I know, are de-
voting enormous resources in fighting fraud, but the threat is larg-
er than any single industry can possibly tackle on its own. Can you
describe the scale of fraud that your members are seeing?
Mr. BENDA. Thank you for the question.
It is really hard to describe because, as you said, we do not have
accurate numbers. We have numbers that are all over the place.
The one thing we can look at is the trend lines. So both the FBI
claimed a 33-percent increase in fraud from 2023 to 2024, and FTC
showed a 25-percent increase from 2023 to 2024. So fraud is going
up 25 to 30 percent every year, in terms of what we are seeing.
From our members’ perspective, we have spent an inordinate
amount of time on check fraud, and we have seen that the sus-
picious activity reports (SARs) being reported on check fraud have
tripled, frankly, in the past 4 or 5 years, and that number is not
going down.
Then we continue to see the rise of scams trying to convince con-
sumers to send money out and that is simply going to continue to
increase.
Mr. MOORE. Right.
Well, let me ask you this. How have the banking regulators been
engaged in helping financial institutions fight scams and fraud? As
a secondary, have there been any regulatory or interagency frag-
mentation that has made it harder to respond?
Mr. BENDA. The regulators have not—I will focus on the scam
issue. The regulators have not really focused on the scam issue, be-
cause it is—I think it is more focused on the front-end thing, which
is a consumer being induced to commit some type of act.
So what we would like to see them focus on is ways that we can
better share information. We really want to focus on preventing the
fraud from happening in the first place and that requires sharing
information that we receive from suspicious activity reports, shar-
ing information from law enforcement, and allowing banks and
other financial institutions to share information about bad accounts
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00125 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
122
being used in real-time so those accounts cannot be used to commit
fraud.
Mr. MOORE. With respect to this, I mean, would you say that the
scams are just—I mean, this is probably a rhetorical question.
They are becoming more sophisticated, though, these scams are.
Mr. BENDA. They are. They are. They are using the data that
they have stolen. They are using AI to fabricate documents. They
are using AI to deepfake voices. They are using AI to commit fraud
at scale. It is no longer a simple thing, to spot a phishing email;
it is very challenging.
Mr. MOORE. You mentioned AI. That brings me to Mr.
Bednowitz.
I will ask you a question. We know AI is a double-edged sword.
Criminals are using it, of course, to create more convincing scams,
but my understanding is that companies are also deploying it to de-
tect fraud.
How effectively is AI being used in protecting consumers today,
and what gaps still remain?
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Yes. Thank you for the question.
AI is definitely a double-edged sword, and we utilize it in our
tools to scan millions of data points to detect fraud in real-time, to
detect deepfakes, prevent scams from ever reaching consumers via
their email, phone, or text. We are not alone. The private sector is
innovating very heavily with AI to combat these scams and these
fraudsters.
The gaps that I keep coming back to are just awareness on the
side of consumers to be able to adopt these types of protections and
to also be aware to breathe and stop, to know that they need to
check, that they should not just respond to any email, phone, or
text, that they cannot—they have to be vigilant, they unfortunately
cannot trust their communications today.
Mr. MOORE. Right.
I know I am out of time, Mr. Chairman. I just will point out, now
criminals can actually use artificial intelligence to mimic a loved
one’s voice. I mean, someone gets a call, and they think they are
actually getting a call from a family member or whatnot, saying
that they need this or need that.
It is scary, how it is out there and so I appreciate the effort that
the industry is making on this.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields back.
The gentlewoman from Michigan, Ms. Tlaib, is now recognized
for 5 minutes.
Ms. TLAIB. Thank you so much, Chairman.
We are talking about all of this, and all I keep thinking about
is how paralyzed the CFPB is right now. I mean, this is where the
911 for consumer fraud is.
I mean, romance fraud is up. I have this huge fraud right now—
you have to check this out, Chairman—where they say, ‘‘Oh, you
did not respond to the jury response’’—did you hear about this
one?—‘‘to jury duty, and a warrant is out for your arrest.’’ They get
these calls, and I had one constituent lose $11,000 on that one.
They are getting so sophisticated, because, you are right, they even
have a website with dot-org, like, so—not dot-gov, but dot-org, like,
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00126 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
123
so it looks real. It almost looks exactly like—and the number that
they call them from is the same county number.
All of that to say, CFPB was doing an incredible job, and it is
being paralyzed right now. Why? Because it goes after banks that
cover up the scams, let us be honest. Let us be frank here. Every-
body keeps thinking about that, but think about it. I do not know
why they do not want to, like, help and aid in regard to this.
I mean, to see them in March, CFPB, under the current adminis-
tration, dropped the case against digital payment app—what was
it—Zelle, a joint venture between Wells Fargo, Chase, Bank of
America, delivering a de facto pardon to the company for failing to
protect its users from fraud. We are almost giving them, like, ‘‘Hey,
well, that is not our fault. We cannot—oh well.’’
I mean, that does not make any—there should be a sense of re-
sponsibility on the consumer to be protected if these Big Banks are,
again, having their consumers, use their service. It does not make
any sense to me.
One of the things—and this is to all the witnesses. If banks fail
to fulfill their obligations under the Electronic Funds Transfer
Act—some protections in there requiring them to investigate cus-
tomer complaints of fraud. If those banks willfully ignore hundreds
of millions of dollars in consumer losses, would you agree that at
that moment, they are not going to be held accountable and they
are not going to even actually proceed unless we force them to?
I feel like people think they are just going to do the right thing
and I am like, ‘‘No. CFPB made them do it.’’
What I continue to see—I do not care if it is the loan services
for the student loans; I do not care if it was the folks targeting the
veterans—and some of this stuff never gets headlines. It never gets
in the headlines.
I would love to hear from all of you. I mean, you saw this case
get dropped and be honest, I think my time—be honest. Do you
think them dropping that case exposed a lot of our consumers right
now?
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. So I will jump in really quick.
Ms. TLAIB. Yes.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. So the EFTA—one of the brilliant things
about that statute is that it actually has a private enforcement——
Ms. TLAIB. She is talking about, for my residents, Electronic
Funds Transfer Act.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Sorry.
Ms. TLAIB. I just want them to know. When they see that, they
do not know that there are protections in there.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Right.
Ms. TLAIB. They just think it is something to do with transfer of
money.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. So it does have private enforcement with
really strong remedies if it is violated, including punitive damages
and treble damages.
However, not everybody can afford a lawyer.
Ms. TLAIB. That is right.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. One of the brilliant things about the CFPB
is it acted on behalf of all of those who cannot afford——
Ms. TLAIB. I have said that to people.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00127 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
124
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS.—a lawyer.
Ms. TLAIB. ‘‘Oh, the elder law clinic cannot take the case’’—I am
serious, Chairman. ‘‘They did not take the case; they cannot do
any-’’—I send them to CFPB and sometimes CFPB just calls or
sends the letter, an inquiry; gets it fixed like that.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Yes. I——
Ms. TLAIB. I have seen it happen.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. I also just want to respond to something
that one of the witnesses talked about, which is about private enti-
ties that are able to help protect consumers.
Ms. TLAIB. Yes.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Now, that is all well and good, and I love
that but there are low-income consumers who cannot afford those
services.
Ms. TLAIB. Right.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. That is the importance of government
agencies——
Ms. TLAIB. I mean, what do you all think, other than, I mean,
Ms. Carla here, what do you all think about them dropping the
case? You think that was a great idea?
We are talking about $870 million in losses to the public. This
is 1 of 22 enforcement actions, by the way.
Do not be afraid. Was this a good action on behalf of CFPB, to
drop that case?
Paul?
Mr. BENDA. I am sorry, Congresswoman. I am not familiar with
the case. I cannot speak to that.
Ms. TLAIB. Okay.
How about you, Ian?
So it is okay; they are just not going to enforce the Electronic
Funds Transfer Act.
Go ahead, Ian.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. No, I appreciate the question. I am also——
Ms. TLAIB. Okay.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ [continuing]. unfamiliar with——
Ms. TLAIB. All right.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ [continuing]. the case.
Ms. TLAIB. Kate, you are familiar. You know that CFPB just
dropped an $870 million case against these folks. I mean, Zelle is
participating with these banks, and they are letting it happen and
pretty much, they are like, ‘‘Sorry. You lost that money. We cannot
do anything about it.’’
Ms. GRIFFIN. Thank you for the question.
One of the things that we talked about a lot in the task force
that we have been organizing is the ability, in this example of the
text messages, for the banks to get information from the tele-
communications companies about that interaction——
Ms. TLAIB. That is right.
Ms. GRIFFIN [continuing]. so that they know whether that case
is fraudulent.
Ms. TLAIB. Why do they not just want to——
Ms. GRIFFIN. There are a lot of actions——
Ms. TLAIB. I do not understand why they do not want to help.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00128 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
125
Ms. GRIFFIN. Well, I think the issue we will come out with in this
report is how we can help all of those institutions to better share
information so that they can take more preventative action.
Ms. TLAIB. Yes. Thank you.
I yield.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentlelady yields.
The gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, is now recognized for
5 minutes.
Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
Of course, it goes almost without saying, this hearing could not
be more relevant to our world today. One of the most pressing top-
ics I hear from credit providers in my district is the growing preva-
lence of fraud and financial threats to our families and institutions.
According to CFTC, in my home State of Oklahoma, over $75
million was lost last year in fraud attacks but we know these
crimes are severely under-reported and the actual number is most
likely dramatically higher.
So let us focus, again, on the core stuff here. All of our Federal
agencies must prioritize the effective prevention tools and work to-
gether to find and punish bad actors.
So, Mr. Bednowitz, how has your company had success—let us
talk about some success here—in fighting bad actors and what are
the lessons the Federal agencies could learn from private-sector ex-
periences?
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Yes, absolutely and thank you——
Mr. LUCAS. You have been in the trenches. Tell us about it.
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Yes. Thank you for the question.
We protect over 500 million consumers globally from these types
of threats, and we do it through a variety of technology solutions
that the private sector offers.
I want to say a few things to address the comment earlier. Just
because it is private sector does not mean that it has to be some-
thing that people cannot afford. There are partnerships, from peers
in the industry, between banks and those credit bureaus, that offer
free solutions for people to be able to protect themselves. There is
the Identity Theft Resource Center that helps people when they
have problems, in addition to the paid solutions that are out there
but the success is really based on having comprehensive protection
of your devices through security, having identity-theft protection.
Scam protection is coming out and then there is restoration and re-
mediation and some of these providers, including us, provide sup-
port every step of the way when someone falls victim, as well as
the insurance to help reimburse them for those losses that they
have.
So there are solutions out there.
We have many stories of people—one story comes to mind of an
elder gentleman who, as we talk about these bitcoin ATMs, he was
tricked into—that money, $9,000 had come into his account—into
giving $9,000 into one of those ATMs, but because he was covered
by our insurance, we were able to reimburse him for that loss.
Mr. LUCAS. Mr. Benda, could you comment on this as well?
Mr. BENDA. Absolutely, Congressman.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00129 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
126
So I think what we are seeing is, banks are making some success
at trying to combat these scams and fraud, sharing information
where they can, but I think the focus really needs to be here on
the prevention side of things.
I think we need better sharing from the telecoms in terms of the
text messages that are being out there. I think we need better en-
forcement from the FCC to shut down those telecoms that are
sending those bad text messages, but I think there has to just be
better information-sharing across the ecosystem. You can share
across financial institutions without fear of liability, but social
media, telecoms, and others cannot necessarily share that same
level of information.
We know that banks file 6,000 SARs a day—suspicious activity
reports—a day focused on fraud, but that information never comes
back to financial institutions in a manner they can use to prevent
that fraud from occurring.
Mr. LUCAS. Continuing with that, Mr. Benda, we have heard a
lot about those gaps in the data collection from Federal agencies
on the financial fraud.
Can you talk about the need for and expand more on this cross-
agency collaboration and whole-of-government approach? I mean,
why are the information silos ineffective? You touched on that. Just
in a moment, would you——
Mr. BENDA. I did.
Mr. LUCAS [continuing]. expand on that?
Mr. BENDA. Thank you.
I think that is the critical need.
The question you have to ask yourself is—we hear many times,
let us say a small bank gets—their local area gets blanketed with
these fake fraud alerts. You hear about this. They send these thou-
sands of messages out, and then they overwhelm—one of our small
banks got 600 calls a day. We know crimes are being committed
at that exact moment. There is no 911. There is nowhere to call
to say, how do I stop these text messages, how do I stop this crime
from occurring?
We need to have a centralized strategy. Other countries—like,
Australia has developed a national anti-scam center, has a national
strategy in place. They have seen a reduction in scam losses of 25
percent. We need that type of centralized approach to build capa-
bilities.
Mr. LUCAS. In the few seconds I have left, Ms. Griffin, how can
we make sure the Federal Government and its private industry
partners stay competitive against bad actors? How do we adapt to
emerging threats? This is moving quickly every moment, it sounds
like.
Ms. GRIFFIN. Yes. Thank you for the question.
I just want to underscore what Paul is talking about here in
terms of the importance and the urgency of a coordinated national
strategy that leverages the best of what America has to offer. The
innovation, the ability to coordinate are all paramount. We need to
create better clarity of expectations of the private sector for their
role in helping to prevent scams.
Mr. LUCAS. Thank you very much.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00130 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
127
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields back.
The gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Foster, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. FOSTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to our witnesses.
I probably stayed up later than I should have last night reading
Mr. Benda’s excellent testimony. The thing that struck me over
and over, reading that, is that identity fraud was at the core of
every single one of the frauds, the long list of frauds, whether it
is the text message that starts a long romance scam or whatever
it is.
The point to stop this is at the beginning, and the tool at hand
is to provide people with a means of proving they are who they say
they are in an online environment.
Because of inaction by the Federal Government, States are doing
this. They are standing up for what is called the Mobile ID, the
digital driver’s license. This is simply connecting your Real ID-com-
pliant driver’s license issued by the State, which is a pretty unique
identity that cannot be—it is very difficult to get many fraudulent
copies of the Real ID. We have done a pretty good job, federally,
on that but then what you do is, you associate that with your cell
phone, take advantage of the fact that a modern cell phone is like
a security dongle; it has a unique, secret ID in there. It is a unique
device in the world and when it gets associated with a Real ID,
that allows you to prove you are who you say you are in a legally
traceable method online.
Certainly, every time you open a bank account, that has to be an
option to people. Because if you talk about the check washing fraud
that we are talking about, they say, Okay, you transfer that to a
fraudulently opened bank account. Well, guess what. If you are in
other countries—just pick your country—say, Korea, if you want to
open a bank account, you get out your cell phone and you prove
you are who you say you are, and you can open the account like
that, because that has been compared against a list of bad actors.
You are a single legally traceable person with responsibility for
that account.
It does not happen in countries that have done this and the U.S.
is falling behind on this. Countries around the world understand
that you need to be able to prove you are who you say you are.
We can do everything that we want with trying to identify pat-
terns of fraud and all of the deepfake impersonations, but the bad
guys are getting sophisticated too fast for that. The other side of
the coin that they will never be able to beat is when you have a
cryptographic assurance of being able to prove you are who you say
you are.
The tool at hand is the Mobile ID that is being rolled out by
many—digital driver’s license—rolled out by many States and this
is the real answer to this.
I think that we have to use this for Federal Government pur-
poses. We have gotten very close, for Federal Government pur-
poses, to having motion in both the House and the Senate, never
in the same session but the time has passed for that.
I think that if industry had access to a simple, efficient way for
people to prove they are who they say they are, there would be a
huge adoption immediately and a dramatic drop in fraud.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00131 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
128
So does anyone—that whole little spiel I just gave, are there any
details you think need to be corrected on that? Or do you all agree
that is a——
Mr. BENDA. Congressman, if I could jump in there, I would like
to thank you for your leadership in this mobile identity space. You
have done a great job of pushing that issue forward, so I want to
personally thank you for that.
We partner with the Better Identity Coalition. We recognize the
value of mobile digital driver’s license. We partnered with them to
send a letter to the FDIC asking them to make sure that their ex-
aminers are aware that we can use those.
We think it is a critical need, to have a reservoir of truth, to be
able to go back to those DMVs. Not every State participates in the
DMV validation piece. Having mobile driver’s license, digital au-
thentication, we think it is critical. We are happy to partner with
you going forward on that effort to do anything we can to spur
adoption of that.
Mr. FOSTER. Yes. It will be just a tremendous simplification.
One of the big things we were struggling with during COVID, it
was costing, like, $400 to onboard an unbanked person for a bank
and that was a huge barrier to getting COVID relief to people that
needed it the most.
It did not happen in countries where you say, ‘‘Okay, you want
your COVID relief check? Get out your cell phone, smile at it, do
your biometric login, have that cell phone prove you are who you
say you are and authenticate to a bank account,’’ and, boom, there
is your COVID relief check.
It is just—it was heartbreaking to see the delays there and the
amount of fraud. Hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer money
stolen by fraudsters because we do not have a decent way to prove
you are who you say you are.
Anyway. So I sense there is some motion, some bipartisan mo-
tion, to get this to happen, because the level of fraud is just out
of control.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. I just want to say, until legislation like
that is passed, that is why we need to enforce Bank Secrecy Act
regulations and do supervision to ensure that fraudulent accounts
are not being opened and money is not being laundered that way.
Mr. FOSTER. Yes.
I echo everything that was said by my colleagues about the trag-
edy of what has been done to the CFPB and the anti-fraud mission
of the CFPB is a small part of what—the damage that was done
there.
So I just want to thank you all and look forward to actually
building some momentum on this.
I yield back.
Mr. STEIL [presiding]. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes to ask questions.
I appreciate you all being here on a really important topic. I can-
not tell you how many constituents I talk to that have been victims
of financial scams, problems—in particular, pig butchering, where
people are integrating romantic relationships online—purported ro-
mantic relationships online and then delving into a financial side.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00132 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
129
Later today, I am holding a hearing in particular as it relates to
artificial intelligence and AI. There are a lot of positive things that
can be done by AI. There are also a lot of challenges.
I just want to touch on how some of the challenges affect this
area, about financial challenges.
Mr. Benda, if I can ask you, in particular, how bad actors are uti-
lizing AI in this way and then I want to get into questions, fol-
lowing that, about the ways that we can utilize technology or AI
itself to prevent those.
Mr. BENDA. Sure. Sure. There have been a couple things here
today, and I will just reiterate some of those.
I think it is the ability to create very realistic and legitimate-
looking phishing emails, phishing texts. We are worried about
agentic AI that is going to be able to act on its own, can access per-
sonally identifiable information, can deepfake voices to make it
sound like someone else, and then interact with either banks or
other companies who are trying to fraud them.
I think that the scams part of things is really the tragic piece,
in that we are now seeing romance scams being committed, be-
cause they can change their visage, they can change their voice. It
can be someone from overseas of a completely different race, and
pretend to be someone else, and interact and try and build that ro-
mance scam, build that trust over time, so that someone loses their
life savings.
Mr. STEIL. How are financial services firms navigating these
new, choppy waters?
Mr. BENDA. Well, I think there are lot of challenges that we have
in terms of the phishing. We have one thing in place; there is a
thing called dot-bank where you can actually register your bank’s
internet domain. It is less resistant to phishing, simply because no
one else—you have to be a financial services company to put your
website on there.
We have activities, anti-phishing advertising campaigns, such as
our ‘‘Banks Never Ask That’’ that is out there trying to inform con-
sumers. So I think a lot of it is really on consumer education to
try to make people aware of the problem.
Mr. STEIL. So the consumer education, what the companies are
doing. Should our regulators be reviewing whether or not compa-
nies are utilizing some of these anti-fraud projection tools?
Mr. BENDA. We would love to partner with the regulators on a
consumer education campaign.
Mr. STEIL. Let me build on some of the AI with you, Mr.
Bednowitz, if I can. Mr. Benda just referenced AI being used to du-
plicate voice, to duplicate images. I think that is one of the things
that is uniquely challenging.
You can think of fraud against calling maybe a grandma or a
grandpa, imitating the voice of a grandson or granddaughter say-
ing that they need assistance, taking that grandparent fraud to the
next step. It is uniquely challenging, especially if that sure sounds
like your grandson or granddaughter who needs quick help, and, of
course, it is a criminal on the other end saying, send $100 to this
location.
How should we be thinking about that or navigating against
that?
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00133 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
130
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Sure. There are two ways.
There is a low-tech way, which is teaching people to be vigilant
and just using safe words. So, across families, if you have a safe
word, which is a unique, nonsensical word that no one is writing
down, then if someone is actually having a threat, then they can
use that safe word, and you know that is actually that person on
the other end or not.
Now, on the more high-tech solutions, my company, others in the
private sector are building using AI, like you talked about, to help
defend against that type of AI, to detect deepfakes, to detect scams
and fraud, whether it is coming through video, through voice,
through email. So that is absolutely a front in a battle that we are
tackling.
AI is also, though, in the background—what Mr. Benda did not
talk about—it is less flashy, but AI allows criminals to take infor-
mation that is out there in the dark web, that is out there in social
media sites, data brokers, and create profiles of you to either steal
your identity or to target you with very personalized scams.
Mr. STEIL. And to do it with incredible volume——
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Yes.
Mr. STEIL [continuing]. in a way that was not possible pre-
viously.
I will come to you to close this out, Ms. Griffin. How do you think
we should be navigating the downside risk of the AI?
Ms. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much for the question.
One of the first things that comes to mind to me is to make sure
that our law enforcement is able to use the same tools. When we
think about the kinds of data that are available, both in terms of
what the private sector has due to consumers reporting to them as
well as the kind of data Paul mentioned, the SARs data base, the
ability for our law enforcement to deploy AI, as well, to query those
data bases and construct cases and go after criminals at scale is
a critical element.
Mr. STEIL. I think what you are saying, to bring us home, is,
there is downside risk of AI for sure, but there is also massive up-
side potential to address these frauds and making sure that we do
not throw the baby out with the bathwater is going to be incredibly
essential as we dive into AI.
We will be having a hearing looking at that later today.
I appreciate you being here.
I yield back and now recognize the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Da-
vidson, who is the chair of the Subcommittee on National Security,
who is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. DAVIDSON. Thank you, Chairman. I appreciate this and real-
ly appreciate the work of the committee staff, Chairman Meuser,
and others to get focused on fraud.
As chairman for National Security and Illicit Finance, we opened
the year up talking about scam centers and consumer fraud. We
had a great panel of witnesses, and I think, once again, we have
a great panel of witnesses, albeit different witnesses.
So thank you for your work to protect people from these kinds
of scams.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00134 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
131
It is clear that financial fraud remains one of the most pressing
threats to economic security for American families, and there is
certainly a lot to cover.
Today, I want to focus my time on elder fraud. These are some
of the most evil, contrived schemes that take advantage of our sen-
iors. They have accumulated money; they are just trying to live out
their years. These wicked elder schemes have turned into a global
enterprise at this point. It is not like a local crime, generally.
So the good news is, fighting elder fraud is an issue that does
unite Democrats and Republicans, should unite all Americans. It is
time to cut the party-line pushback and make laws to protect our
seniors more effective.
One example here is the Guarding Unprotected Aging Retirees
from Deception (GUARD) Act. It is a bipartisan legislation put
forth by my colleagues Congressmen Nunn, Gottheimer, and Fitz-
gerald. While the FBI, FTC, and the Financial Crimes Enforcement
Network (FinCEN) are tracking the elder-abuse fraud schemes, the
missing piece here is amping up coordination between Federal,
State, and local law enforcement. A lot of times when I talk to my
prosecutors, they can detect the fraud, but they have a hard time
getting the resources. We are working with FinCEN to try to get
more of this.
So, Mr. Benda, scams targeting seniors are on the rise. According
to the FBI, from 2023 to 2024, there was a 46-percent increase in
complaints and a 43-percent increase in revenue losses. How have
scams targeting seniors evolved over the years?
Mr. BENDA. Thank you for the question, Congressman.
So I think they have evolved fairly significantly in terms of, we
talked about the use of AI in targeting the elderly folks. One of the
things that was really interesting was the use of bitcoin ATMs to
cash out on these scams.
We mentioned earlier, DC originally has just brought suit
against Athena, which is a bitcoin operator that operated for 5
months here in the District. It turns out that—they analyzed the
transactions of the bitcoin ATM—93 percent of the transactions of
the ATM were fraudulent, 93 percent. The average age of the vic-
tim? 71. The average loss? $8,000. So the question is, is a 71-year-
old really going to buy bitcoin at an ATM inside a convenience
store? They are not.
So really the challenge is, they are targeting these elderly folks,
and they are trying to convince them, whether threaten or cajole
them, and they are cashing out through these bitcoin ATMs.
Mr. DAVIDSON. Yes. Thank you for that.
I think, a couple things there that you highlight. The techniques
are used—bitcoin ATMs did not exist a long time ago. AI was not
around but the other things is these data centers that are making
all this possible are on the back end.
So, as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, we are see-
ing, even nation-state-level structuring of data centers to be able
to create income for poor countries. They make some of their—a
significant portion of their GDP off of helping scam seniors. So this
is becoming way beyond the scope of what State and local law en-
forcement can do.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00135 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
132
You highlight one of the ways that they can do it, and certainly
bitcoin ATM has been used for fraudulent activity, but I would also
highlight that blockchain tracing tools have made it so it is easier
to follow the money, in some cases.
So let me turn to Mr. Bednowitz.
How might consumer education, specifically efforts geared to-
ward seniors, help decrease barriers in reporting?
Mr. BEDNOWITZ. Yes. This is a great question and thank you for
that question.
Our data shows that, despite elderly consumers reporting in total
$5 billion of fraud, a staggering amount, 67 percent of them think
that they are invulnerable, that they are safe from scams and
frauds. So there is a huge gap in expectations and reality.
So it is very important to partner with organizations to raise
that level of awareness. We have a partnership with the AARP to
help any way that we can reach out to these seniors and let them
know that they are vulnerable.
Because seniors think, ‘‘Hey, it happens to seniors in general, but
it does not happen to me. I am smarter than everyone else’’ and
that is the problem; That overconfidence leads them to be able to
fall victim more easily.
Mr. DAVIDSON. Yes, I was particularly impressed with the AARP
witness earlier in the year in highlighting the nonprofit center that
they are working with in Pittsburgh.
I think the complement to that might be a customer-oriented
function for FinCEN that works not only with citizens and con-
sumers but with our State and local law enforcement. We will see
if we can do that. I think it is a bipartisan answer. The GUARD
Act is a good start, but I appreciate your time today.
Chairman MEUSER [presiding]. The gentleman yields back.
We now will have—excuse me. The gentleman from Iowa, Mr.
Nunn, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. NUNN. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chair and I want to
thank the witnesses for being here.
You have all echoed what all of our seniors, what too many
Americans already know: This country and the individuals in it are
losing billions of dollars each year to sophisticated scams.
In 2024, there were a reported 2.6 million fraud cases in the
United States. It resulted in $12.5 billion being scammed from indi-
viduals, many of those dollars going overseas.
These are not just national statistics. They are real, everyday
Americans. They are families, friends, communities, veterans, sen-
iors, not just in my district but across the country.
In Iowa, my home State, last year, the attorney general reported
receiving more than 13,000 fraud cases and this is a small farm
State by comparison to some. It resulted in the loss of $42 billion.
My office just worked with a 68-year-old veteran who lost
$100,000 to someone he thought he was helping, only to be
scammed out of his military pension.
This is why I am grateful to be working with this committee on
a bill that we have introduced called the GUARD Act that provides
State and local law enforcement better tools to track fraud, as well
as the bill we are leading in a bipartisan way, the Task Force for
Recognizing and Averting Payment Scams (TRAPS) Act, to really
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00136 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
133
stop fraudulent payment schemes targeting seniors at a national
level, working both locally and strategically to be able to address
these issues.
I am also proud to be co-chairing a new-formed caucus called
STOP Scams. This is a bipartisan effort on best practices that we
should be sharing, and it is one of the reasons I am so grateful this
committee is speaking about our scam attacks today.
Mr. Benda, I would like to begin with you. As you know, banks
are on the front line. Too often, fraud occurs there, and coordina-
tion with regulators and law enforcement happens after the dam-
age has already been done.
Would not a coordinated task force, like what is created under
the TRAPS Act, help to address and disseminate best practices be-
fore these events occur?
Mr. BENDA. Thank you for the question, Congressman. Thank
you for your leadership and thank you for establishing the STOP
Scams Caucus. We think more effort; more focus on this can only
help.
So we think the TRAPS Act is a good effort to try and coordinate
the activities across the Federal Government. We applaud your ef-
forts in that space, and we hope that you will be able to gather in-
formation and come up with a consolidated plan moving forward.
Mr. NUNN. Ms. Griffin, I would also like to ask for your input
on this.
Look, the task force has called for a national fraud prevention
strategy, specifically with the TRAPS Act. Would this help address
a nationwide strategy to oppose the type of scams that we are see-
ing?
Ms. GRIFFIN. Yes. Thank you for the question and thank you for
your leadership with your fellow co-chairs in creating the STOP
Scams Caucus.
Your question and the efforts of the caucus really represent what
is needed here. We talked about this as a whole-of-society or a
whole-of-ecosystem approach. There are a lot of jobs to be done.
There are jobs to be done by this committee, by other committees
here in this building. The efforts of things like the TRAPS Act that
really recognize that and name for leadership within the executive
branch of government as well to create a national strategy are
critically important at this moment.
Mr. NUNN. I think we all want to go one step further here. It
cannot just be the role of the Federal Government, trying to solve
this. As you note, this is not just a whole-of-government approach;
this needs to be a whole-of-Nation approach and that includes our
guys on the front line, whether it is a mainstream bank or whether
it is the county sheriff.
One of the things we are trying to do is put more resources in
the hands of our frontline defenders. We are leading an effort
called the GUARD Act. The GUARD Act looks at empowering local
law enforcement to give muscle to the strategy that the TRAPS Act
would come up with.
Local law enforcement, as we all know, they are at the front
lines. They hear the calls. They talk to the senior citizens. They
heard from our veteran and, often, they feel powerless in their abil-
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00137 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
134
ity to help and by the time the Federal Government shows up, as
we noted, it is too little, too late.
The GUARD Act provides local law enforcement with tools to act,
while the TRAPS Act would establish a Federal coordinating hub.
Would you say the two bills together create both a top-down and
a holistic approach and a strategy that right now is not available
to too many?
Ms. GRIFFIN. Yes. Thank you very much for that.
I will say that what we have heard from victims are both stories
of times when local law enforcement has been enormously helpful
and times when local law enforcement has not known what to do
and they have turned away in shame.
So the ability to create more resources so that local law enforce-
ment has training and the incentives to be working with victims
and elevating this issue is critically important. Thank you for that
leadership.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. Representative, if I may?
Mr. NUNN. Yes.
Ms. SANCHEZ-ADAMS. I appreciate the TRAPS Act. The one thing
that I ask is that it be expanded to not just cover electronic pay-
ments but all types of payments.
Mr. NUNN. That is very good. I appreciate that feedback.
Together, I think we need to be able to come up with a strategy,
first of all, to be able to implement and help our folks at the local
level.
With that, I yield back my time.
Chairman MEUSER. The gentleman yields. The chair thanks the
gentleman for his remarks.
Before we adjourn, I ask unanimous consent to enter two docu-
ments into the record: one letter from the Consumer Bankers Asso-
ciation discussing the need for cross-industry collaboration, and the
other from the Bank Policy Institute discussing how banks, govern-
ment, and telecoms need to work together to solve this issue.
Without objection, so ordered.
[The information referred to can be found in the appendix on
pages 141-164.]
Chairman MEUSER. I would like to thank our witnesses for their
testimony today.
I do want to apologize for the earlier remark made by the rank-
ing member that characterized this hearing as a sham. This is the
furthest thing from a sham. We are all here collectively to try to
work together to correct the escalating fraud that has occurred over
the last 3 to 4 years.
I am sure that the results of our work will be preventing such
fraud being caused and forced upon thousands and thousands of in-
nocent Americans. So that is our goal, and I look forward to work-
ing with you all on it over the next several months and years or
whatever it takes.
Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days with-
in which to submit additional written questions for the witnesses
to the chair.
The questions will be forwarded to the witnesses for their re-
sponse. I ask our witnesses to please respond no later than October
23, 2025.
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00138 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
135
[The information referred to can be found in the appendix.]
Chairman MEUSER. This hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:07 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00139 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00140 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
APPENDIX
MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00141 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
138
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 90 here 63431.090
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00142 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
139
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 91 here 63431.091
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00143 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
140
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 92 here 63431.092
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00144 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
141
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 93 here 63431.093
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00145 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
142
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 94 here 63431.094
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00146 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
143
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 95 here 63431.095
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00147 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
144
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 96 here 63431.096
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00148 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
145
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 97 here 63431.097
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00149 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
146
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 98 here 63431.098
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00150 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
147
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 99 here 63431.099
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00151 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
148
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 100 here 63431.100
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00152 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
149
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 101 here 63431.101
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00153 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
150
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 102 here 63431.102
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00154 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
151
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 103 here 63431.103
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00155 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
152
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 104 here 63431.104
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00156 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
153
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 105 here 63431.105
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00157 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
154
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 106 here 63431.106
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00158 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
155
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 107 here 63431.107
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00159 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
156
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 108 here 63431.108
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00160 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
157
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 109 here 63431.109
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00161 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
158
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 110 here 63431.110
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00162 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
159
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 111 here 63431.111
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00163 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
160
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 112 here 63431.112
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00164 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
161
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 113 here 63431.113
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00165 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
162
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 114 here 63431.114
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00166 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
163
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 115 here 63431.115
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00167 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
164
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 116 here 63431.116
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00168 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
165
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 117 here 63431.117
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00169 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
166
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 118 here 63431.118
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00170 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
167
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 119 here 63431.119
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00171 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
168
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 120 here 63431.120
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00172 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
169
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 121 here 63431.121
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00173 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
170
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 122 here 63431.122
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00174 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
171
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 123 here 63431.123
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00175 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
172
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 124 here 63431.124
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00176 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
173
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 125 here 63431.125
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00177 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
174
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 126 here 63431.126
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00178 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
175
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 127 here 63431.127
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00179 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
176
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 128 here 63431.128
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00180 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
177
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 129 here 63431.129
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00181 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
178
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 130 here 63431.130
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00182 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
179
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 131 here 63431.131
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00183 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
180
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 132 here 63431.132
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00184 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
181
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 133 here 63431.133
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00185 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
182
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 134 here 63431.134
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00186 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
183
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 135 here 63431.135
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00187 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
184
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 136 here 63431.136
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00188 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
185
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 137 here 63431.137
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00189 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
186
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 138 here 63431.138
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00190 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
187
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 139 here 63431.139
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00191 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
188
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 140 here 63431.140
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00192 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
189
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 141 here 63431.141
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00193 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
190
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 142 here 63431.142
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00194 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
191
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 143 here 63431.143
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00195 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
192
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 144 here 63431.144
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00196 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
193
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 145 here 63431.145
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00197 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6601 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
194
Æ
FSR-FORD-FORD with DISTILLER
Insert offset folio 146 here 63431.146
VerDate Sep 11 2014 07:12 Apr 27, 2026 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00198 Fmt 6601 Sfmt 6011 S:\DENEEN\DOCS\63431.TXT DENEEN
File and source
- File
- CHRG-119hhrg63431.pdf
- Size
- 34,625,993 bytes
- SHA-256
- 5ccbb864dc5f5c97f9dd8100bce94b5e49b3d6b3b6edf1dee412751edac5c623
- Our copy
- CHRG-119hhrg63431.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov