House hearing (118th Congress), THE GREATEST THEFT OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS: UNCHECKED UNEMPLOYMENT FRAUD (PDF)
Summary
The printed record of a February 8, 2023 hearing of the House Committee on Ways and Means, Serial No. 118–2, titled The Greatest Theft of Taxpayer Dollars: Unchecked Unemployment Fraud. Opening statements come from Chairman Jason Smith of Missouri and Ranking Member Richard Neal of Massachusetts. Witnesses are Gene Dodaro, Comptroller General of the Government Accountability Office; Larry Turner, Inspector General of the Department of Labor; and Michael Horowitz, Chair of the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee. The volume also contains member post-hearing questions with responses from Dodaro and Turner, and public submissions.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Full text
HEARING ON THE GREATEST THEFT OF
TAXPAYER DOLLARS: UNCHECKED
UNEMPLOYMENT FRAUD
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
FEBRUARY 8, 2023
Serial No. 118–2
Printed for the use of the Committee on Ways and Means
(
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 6011 Sfmt 6011 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
HEARING ON THE GREATEST THEFT OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS: UNCHECKED UNEMPLOYMENT FRAUD
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 6019 Sfmt 6019 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
HEARING ON THE GREATEST THEFT OF
TAXPAYER DOLLARS: UNCHECKED
UNEMPLOYMENT FRAUD
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
FEBRUARY 8, 2023
Serial No. 118–2
Printed for the use of the Committee on Ways and Means
(
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
53–008 WASHINGTON : 2024
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 5011 Sfmt 5011 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS
JASON SMITH, Missouri, Chairman
VERN BUCHANAN, Florida RICHARD E. NEAL, Massachusetts
ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania MIKE THOMPSON, California
DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut
DARIN LAHOOD, Illinois EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon
BRAD WENSTRUP, Ohio BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey
JODEY ARRINGTON, Texas DANNY DAVIS, Illinois
DREW FERGUSON, Georgia LINDA SÁNCHEZ, California
RON ESTES, Kansas BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
LLOYD SMUCKER, Pennsylvania TERRI SEWELL, Alabama
KEVIN HERN, Oklahoma SUZAN DELBENE, Washington
CAROL MILLER, West Virginia JUDY CHU, California
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee DAN KILDEE, Michigan
BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania DON BEYER, Virginia
GREG STEUBE, Florida DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
MICHELLE FISCHBACH, Minnesota JIMMY PANETTA, California
BLAKE MOORE, Utah
MICHELLE STEEL, California
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
RANDY FEENSTRA, Iowa
NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
MIKE CAREY, Ohio
MARK ROMAN, Staff Director
BRANDON CASEY, Minority Chief Counsel
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
(II)
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
C O N T E N T S
Page
OPENING STATEMENTS
Hon. Jason Smith, Missouri, Chairman ................................................................ 1
Hon. Richard Neal, Massachusetts, Ranking Member ......................................... 3
Advisory of February 8, 2023 announcing the hearing ........................................ V
WITNESSES
Gene Dodaro, Comptroller General, Government Accountability Office ............. 4
Larry Turner, Inspector General, Department of Labor Office of the Inspector
General .................................................................................................................. 39
Michael Horowitz, Chair, Pandemic Response Accountability Committee ......... 69
MEMBER QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
Member Questions for the Record to and Responses from Gene Dodaro, Comp-
troller General, Government Accountability Office ........................................... 447
Member Questions for the Record to and Responses from Larry Turner,
Inspector General, Department of Labor Office of the Inspector General ...... 451
PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD
Public Submissions .................................................................................................. 454
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
(III)
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 0483 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 0483 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
(V)
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 01 here 53008A.001
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 7633 Sfmt 7633 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
(VI)
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 02 here 53008A.002
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 7633 Sfmt 7633 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
THE GREATEST THEFT OF TAXPAYER
DOLLARS: UNCHECKED UNEMPLOYMENT
FRAUD
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 2023
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS,
Washington, D.C.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:02 a.m., in Room
1100, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Jason T. Smith
[chairman of the committee] presiding.
Chairman SMITH. The committee will come to order.
Today’s hearing has been a long time coming. For more than two
years, Republicans have been sounding the alarm about the great-
est theft of taxpayer dollars in American history: the massive fraud
perpetrated in the unemployment insurance program that sky-
rocketed with the COVID–19 pandemic. While many Americans
who actually qualified for these benefits were left struggling to re-
claim their benefits and their identity, upwards of tens of billions
of taxpayer dollars had been stolen.
The unemployment benefits passed in the CARES Act came at a
time when millions of Americans were losing their jobs overnight,
as government shut down businesses and ordered people to stay at
home. Livelihoods were ripped away. There is no question, folks
needed help, which is exactly why Congress should have protected
this program and those who needed it against the criminals who
exploited it to commit fraud.
UI fraud is not a victimless crime. For example, a Utah woman
lost her job after a cyber criminal stole her identity, bank account
information, and weekly benefit check. Many more Americans have
stories just like hers. Unemployment insurance met to help them
get through temporary joblessness was stolen. Their most sensitive
information compromised by criminals, while Democrats in Wash-
ington turned a blind eye.
In addition to run-of-the-mill thieves, international crime rings
took advantage of our national crisis. Law enforcement busted sev-
eral rings that made off with millions, often using Americans as
money mules to launder money offshore. The Biden Administra-
tion’s Department of Labor’s inspector general believes significant
fraud played a role within its estimate, a new estimate, $191 bil-
lion in improper payments.
The range of estimates alone is sufficient reason for today’s hear-
ing. ID.me, an identity verification company hired by many states,
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
estimated an astounding $400 billion, $400 billion, in fraud. That
(1)
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
2
suggests thieves may have stolen almost half of the $878 million
taxpayers spent on unemployment insurance. The White House
itself acknowledged that tens of billions were made in improper
payments. They estimate $104 billion lost.
More recently, the Government Accountability Office released its
own report, making an early estimate that at least $60 billion went
to criminals. In just one example of fraud, one example of fraud,
one individual was able to file an unemployment claim in 29 dif-
ferent states, and received over $500,000 in fraudulent benefits.
With these varying estimates, it is clear that the Biden Adminis-
tration and Congress are in the dark about the size and scope of
the greatest theft of taxpayer dollars in American history.
The new Republican majority is turning on the lights. We tried
when we were in the minority. As early as 2020, Republicans
raised the alarm about fraud based on red flags from the Depart-
ment of Labor’s inspector general and the Secret Service.
As the evidence of fraud escalated, I am sorry to say that Demo-
crats continued to turn a blind eye. They ignored two requests from
House Republicans on this committee to hold an oversight hearing
just like the one today. Democrats blocked a congressional resolu-
tion to get answers about what the Department of Labor knew
about funds going to international crime rings. Democrats even
voted to end the identity verification requirements and phase-outs
of emergency UI programs they had previously supported in De-
cember of 2020.
Republicans proposed amendments to protect taxpayers and
those who needed to get unemployment benefits. Democrats re-
jected them outright. Instead, they unilaterally extended unem-
ployment benefits in their so-called bailout bill. They did this, even
as most businesses had already reopened at a time when the Con-
gressional Budget Office projected the economy to return to pre-
pandemic levels of growth by the middle of 2021, and unemploy-
ment to steadily decline without any further stimulus spending.
The Biden Administration has been asleep at the wheel. In his
last State of the Union, the President bragged about appointing a
chief pandemic prosecutor 14 months into his Administration. That
position has sat vacant for months. The Biden Administration then
changed the rules to make it easier for states to sweep potential
cases of fraud under the rug.
Those with their identities stolen weren’t the only victims. Demo-
crats’ unrestrained COVID unemployment insurance programs
fueled a labor shortage that punished American families and small
businesses, and denied individuals the paycheck and dignity that
came from a job. Just two days ago, small business owners in West
Virginia shared with this committee their struggle to find workers
because Congress made a government check more valuable than a
job.
One of our highest responsibilities as legislators is to be good
stewards of the American people’s hard-earned tax dollars. This
hearing is so important and, sadly, long overdue. I look forward to
hearing from our witnesses today on exactly what the Biden Ad-
ministration is doing, and what Congress should have done and
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
must do to go after criminals and make right this multi-billion dol-
lar wrong.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
3
Chairman SMITH. I am pleased to recognize the gentleman from
Massachusetts, Mr. Neal, for his opening statement.
Mr. NEAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to say a word
of thanks to our witnesses today.
So as Joe Friday might have said in a different age, ‘‘just the
facts,’’ because that is what we intend to focus on this morning.
On March 11th of 2020, Dr. Fauci gave his warning as to what
was coming. Within 3 months, 20 million Americans had lost their
jobs. That is the reality. Today, not only have all those jobs been
returned, but, just as importantly, there are still 11 million jobs
that go unanswered every day in America. Just the facts.
I know, I helped write this legislation, and I didn’t write it with
just Speaker Pelosi. I wrote it with Secretary Mnuchin in the room
over eight days. Much of this legislation was written by the pre-
vious Administration.
So just the facts: $849 billion of unemployment insurance. Of
that number, it is estimated that 7.1 percent was fraudulently
spent. We do not, on the Democratic side, defend fraud. We want
the Justice Department, we want our witnesses today to pursue ag-
gressively any of that criminal element that did what they did. But
let us not conflate the need for unemployment insurance with what
happened during the course of the pandemic.
Twelve million jobs have been created under President Biden,
517,000 last month. And the unemployment rate in America is now
3.4 percent. So the Paycheck Protection Program worked. The un-
employment insurance program worked. The relief that we gave to
hospitals where people were in the hallways on ventilators, it
worked.
So when I asked Secretary Paulson, a Republican who couldn’t
have been any more cooperative in helping us to devise the pro-
gram, or we asked Secretary Mnuchin, or we asked Secretary
Rubin, Secretary Yellen, and Secretary Lew as to how to proceed,
they gave us the advice to get cash into the hands of the people
at the bottom of the economic scale who really need it.
So, what did we do? We devised an initiative to make sure that
the community bankers were in the middle of it, because they had
good credit histories with the people that needed the money.
How about the idea of what we were able to do with the credit
unions and CDFIs? What we did overwhelmingly worked. And to
pick on people today, of the 20 million who lost their jobs, and to
suggest that they stayed home during the pandemic—the number
of women who have not come back to the workforce because they
couldn’t find childcare, those are the issues that the committee
should be focused on this morning.
Nobody condones fraud. We want those to be pursued who par-
ticipated in a criminality that relates to fraud. But the idea that
there is a massive number of people staying home because they can
collect unemployment insurance? Tell that to the members of the
AFL–CIO and the trade unions that had to stop construction jobs
during the course of the pandemic. Tell that to the hospital work-
ers who came to work exhausted every single day to make sure
that we got past the pandemic.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
If the reporters who covered the early stages of the pandemic,
when they pointed out the issues, they said early on, ‘‘oh, China
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
4
is doing a great job.’’ I don’t think anybody who looked back in the
last six months would say that China did a better job than the
United States.
Then we used the example of what a great job New Zealand was
doing compared to the United States. The prime minister just
stepped down last week, the approval rating 39 percent.
We restored the jobs that were necessary in America. It should
be a banner of success that we are celebrating this morning, Re-
publican and Democrat.
But just another key phrase here to point out. Much of the un-
employment insurance was passed out during the Trump Adminis-
tration. That is a fact.
The idea once again that there is this group that is out there in
America that doesn’t want to work because they can secure unem-
ployment benefits in Florida, $250 a week in unemployment insur-
ance, that is nonsense.
And the other part of this I think is important. Unemployment
insurance is like a trampoline. You hit it on the downside, and you
bounce back up into the mainstream of the American economy. And
that is precisely what has happened.
So, from our witnesses today, we hope that they will outline pre-
cisely what it is they are doing to secure charges of criminality, but
understand in terms of proportionality what really happened here.
Overwhelmingly, the American economy rebounded because of
what we did. And much of it, by the way, came in this committee,
and most of it unanimously. It was passed through the doors of this
room.
So I am proud of what we did, and I hope the focus today is
going to be on the role that unemployment insurance made in mak-
ing sure that people could keep the lights on, turn the heat on, and
make it to the grocery stores to buy the sustenance of what they
needed every single day.
As I started, and we will conclude, just the facts this morning.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you——
Mr. NEAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Applause.]
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Ranking Member. I will now in-
troduce our witnesses.
Thank you all so much for taking your time out of your busy
schedules for being here.
Gene Dodaro is the comptroller general of the United States.
Larry Turner is the inspector general of the Department of
Labor.
And Mr. Michael Horowitz is chair of the Pandemic Response Ac-
countability Committee, and the inspector general of the Depart-
ment of Justice.
Mr. Dodaro, you are recognized for your opening statement.
STATEMENT OF GENE DODARO, COMPTROLLER GENERAL,
GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE
Mr. DODARO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Ranking
Member Neal, members of the committee. I am very pleased to be
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
here today to talk about the uninsurance—unemployment insur-
ance program during the pandemic.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
5
The program helped millions of Americans in need, but there was
widespread fraud that occurred. And I would like to focus my open-
ing remarks today on three reasons why I believe that happened.
Number one, neither the Labor Department nor the states were
prepared. In 2016 we worked with this—with the Congress to pass
the Fraud Reduction and Data Analytics Act. That was intended
for Federal agencies to be prepared to prevent fraud in the first
place, which is the most effective way to deal with this issue. The
Labor Department, like many Federal agencies, were slow to imple-
ment these framework principles that GAO had outlined on best
practices in the Federal Government. Therefore, they were not as
prepared as they should have been before the pandemic.
States had antiquated IT systems. Many of them had known
this, some of them dating back decades. And also, right before the
pandemic, the unemployment rate was very low, so the staffing lev-
els of the state employment agencies were low. So, they weren’t as
prepared, either.
We made recommendations to the Labor Department. They
haven’t implemented those fully yet. They are beginning to work on
them, but they need to fully implement our recommendations, and
be in accordance with the law.
Secondly, the urgent need to get the money out led to trade-offs
that limited the ability of the government and the states to achieve
the accountability and transparency objectives of the legislation
Congress intended. This was due to allowing people to self certify
their result—their eligibility for programs; eliminate or reduce the
need for them to provide supporting documentation for their claims
of eligibility; reducing the waiting time that was normally in place
at the states before they provided the first unemployment check.
Now, Congress rectified these issues in December 2020, when
they passed the Consolidated Appropriations Act, and then re-
quired more documentation for eligibility determinations. The
states started taking corrective measures. But this was too late;
hundreds of billions of dollars had already been spent. And while
they are welcome, and they need to be fully implemented, and con-
gressional oversight is needed to make sure this happens, they
were not taken as early as possible in the—into this—reduce the
susceptibility to fraud.
And as a result of these trade-offs, self-certification in particular,
these programs were more susceptible to fraud than they would
have been otherwise during the program.
Lastly, third, I would—there was an improper payment problem
before the pandemic occurred in the unemployment insurance pro-
gram. The rates often were in double digits in terms of improper
payments. These are payments that should not have been made, or
were made in the wrong amounts. And there was also fraud in the
unemployment insurance program ahead of time, as well.
Both of these should have been harbingers to alert the Labor De-
partment and the states that they needed to take stronger meas-
ures, particularly with the huge amount of claims that occurred
during a period of time.
As Ranking Member Neal mentioned, you know, millions of peo-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
ple became unemployed at the same time. This really has hap-
pened in our economy, where so many people have applied for
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
6
uninsurance and been out of jobs in almost every sector of the
economy during this period of time. So, more measures should have
been taken.
Now, we have made recommendations in many cases to have this
underlying improper payment problem—and it doesn’t happen just
in the unemployment insurance program, it happens in Medicare,
Medicaid, and 86 different programs across the Federal Govern-
ment’s activities. But it was there, it should have been dealt with.
And if we can’t deal with the Federal Government and the states
level to reduce improper payments in normal times, then you are
bound to have problems when there are emergencies, and there
will be future emergencies, and so people need to get prepared.
So, I would urge this committee to continue their oversight to
make sure the labor departments and the states take action on our
recommendations so that we are much better prepared next time
to deal with these emergency situations.
So, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the
committee. I would be happy to answer questions at the appro-
priate time.
[The statement of Mr. Dodaro follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
7
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 03 here 53008A.003
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
8
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 04 here 53008A.004
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00016 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
9
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 05 here 53008A.005
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
10
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 06 here 53008A.006
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
11
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 07 here 53008A.007
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
12
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 08 here 53008A.008
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
13
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 09 here 53008A.009
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
14
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 010 here 53008A.010
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
15
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 011 here 53008A.011
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
16
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 012 here 53008A.012
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00024 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
17
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 013 here 53008A.013
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
18
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 014 here 53008A.014
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
19
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 015 here 53008A.015
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
20
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 016 here 53008A.016
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00028 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
21
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 017 here 53008A.017
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00029 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
22
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 018 here 53008A.018
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
23
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 019 here 53008A.019
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
24
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 020 here 53008A.020
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00032 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
25
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 021 here 53008A.021
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
26
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 022 here 53008A.022
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
27
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 023 here 53008A.023
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
28
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 024 here 53008A.024
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
29
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 025 here 53008A.025
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
30
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 026 here 53008A.026
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00038 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
31
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 027 here 53008A.027
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
32
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 028 here 53008A.028
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00040 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
33
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 029 here 53008A.029
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00041 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
34
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 030 here 53008A.030
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00042 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
35
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 031 here 53008A.031
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00043 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
36
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 032 here 53008A.032
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
37
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 033 here 53008A.033
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00045 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
38
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 034 here 53008A.034
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
39
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Turner, you are now recognized.
STATEMENT OF LARRY TURNER, INSPECTOR GENERAL, DE-
PARTMENT OF LABOR, OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GEN-
ERAL (DOL–OIG)
Mr. TURNER. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Smith,
Ranking Member Neal, and distinguished members of the com-
mittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
Although the OIG oversees all DoL programs, my testimony
today focuses on our oversight of the unemployment insurance pro-
gram. The views expressed in my testimony are based on the inde-
pendent work of the OIG, and are not intended to reflect DoL’s po-
sition.
Mr. Chairman, the OIG remains committed to assisting DoL and
Congress in improving the efficiency and integrity of the UI pro-
gram. In our view, strengthening the program to prevent and de-
tect fraud are key objectives to ensuring that unemployed workers
quickly receive needed benefits, while safeguarding taxpayer dol-
lars.
For many years, the OIG has highlighted significant concerns
with DoL and states’ ability to deploy UI benefits expeditiously and
efficiently, while ensuring integrity and adequate oversight. The
pandemic compounded these challenges, creating the perfect storm.
As the OIG reported, states were not prepared to process the his-
toric volume of claims, resulting in significant delays. And this reli-
ance on claimant self-certification rendered the PUA program ex-
tremely susceptible to fraud, and the unprecedented infusion of
Federal funds gave fraudsters a high-value target to exploit. That,
combined with the ease of identity theft and system weaknesses
previously identified by the OIG, allowed criminals to defraud the
program.
DoL recently reported an annual improper payment rate of 21.52
percent for fiscal year 2022. When applied to the approximate 888
billion in benefits paid during the pandemic, we estimate that at
least 191 billion in pandemic UI payments could have been paid
improperly, with a significant portion attributable to fraud.
Indeed, following the passage of the CARES Act, fraud against
the UI program exploded. Since April the 1st, 2020, the OIG
opened more than 198,000 UI investigative matters. This rep-
resents 1,000 times the increase in the volume of our UI work.
The OIG took immediate action to respond to this crisis. Less
than a month after the CARES Act was passed, we issued an advi-
sory report identifying initial areas of concern for DoL and the
states to consider. Since then, we have released several additional
reports.
We also hired additional investigators, strengthened our data
analytics program, and worked with DoJ to create a National UI
Fraud Task Force.
We leveraged our CIGIE and PRAC resources, implemented out-
reach and education with the states, and collaborated with the
PRAC, DoJ, and the Secret Service to recover fraudulent funds.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
We also engaged with international law enforcement partners to
pursue transnational organized criminal groups.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00047 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
40
The OIG efforts have resulted in more than 700 search warrants
executed, and 1,200 individuals charged with UI fraud. These
charges have resulted in more than 500 convictions, 11,000 months
of incarceration, and $905 million in investigative results.
We also identified $45.6 billion in potentially fraudulent UI bene-
fits paid in 4 high-risk areas.
In response to our recommendations, DoL instituted efforts to
improve the UI program. However, several OIG recommendations
remain unimplemented regarding OIG’s access to UI data, state
staffing and IT modernization, guidance and assistance to states,
and controls for improper payments.
Mr. Chairman, I want to take a moment to highlight three chal-
lenges impacting our work.
First is access to UI data. For many years, the OIG has re-
quested access to data proactively to monitor the program. Given
the magnitude of the issues we saw at the start of the pandemic,
we took the unprecedented step of issuing IG subpoenas to all 50
states, territories, and jurisdictions. The data allowed the OIG to
identify billions in potential fraud. However, the subpoena process
took months, and delayed our ability to detect fraud.
Second, the statute of limitations associated with the pandemic
UI fraud will start to expire in early 2025. UI crimes often include
complex schemes that require significant resources and time to in-
vestigate. As such, we recommended last year that Congress extend
the statute of limitations from 5 to 10 years.
Third, our work is being impacted by resource limitations. The
OIG received $38.5 million to oversee the close to 1 trillion in ex-
panded programs. However, most of the funding will be fully ex-
pended by fiscal year 2024. Combined with more than expected fis-
cal year 2023 appropriations, our funding is not sufficient to main-
tain the level of oversight deployed during the pandemic.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for your opportunity to testify about
our overseeing the UI program.
I also want to thank the dedicated OIG employees who worked
tirelessly to accomplish the oversight mission.
I look forward to answering any questions you or members of the
committee may have. Thank you.
[The statement of Mr. Turner follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00048 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
41
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 035 here 53008A.035
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00049 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
42
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 036 here 53008A.036
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
43
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 037 here 53008A.037
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00051 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
44
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 038 here 53008A.038
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00052 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
45
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 039 here 53008A.039
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00053 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
46
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 040 here 53008A.040
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00054 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
47
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 041 here 53008A.041
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00055 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
48
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 042 here 53008A.042
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00056 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
49
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 043 here 53008A.043
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00057 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
50
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 044 here 53008A.044
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00058 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
51
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 045 here 53008A.045
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00059 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
52
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 046 here 53008A.046
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00060 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
53
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 047 here 53008A.047
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00061 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
54
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 048 here 53008A.048
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00062 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
55
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 049 here 53008A.049
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00063 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
56
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 050 here 53008A.050
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00064 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
57
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 051 here 53008A.051
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00065 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
58
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 052 here 53008A.052
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00066 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
59
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 053 here 53008A.053
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00067 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
60
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 054 here 53008A.054
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00068 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
61
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 055 here 53008A.055
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00069 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
62
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 056 here 53008A.056
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00070 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
63
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 057 here 53008A.057
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00071 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
64
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 058 here 53008A.058
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00072 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
65
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 059 here 53008A.059
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00073 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
66
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 060 here 53008A.060
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00074 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
67
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 061 here 53008A.061
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00075 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
68
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 062 here 53008A.062
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00076 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
69
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Horowitz, you are now recognized.
STATEMENT OF MICHAEL HOROWITZ, CHAIR, PANDEMIC
RESPONSE ACCOUNTABILITY COMMITTEE (PRAC)
Mr. HOROWITZ. Thank you, Chairman Smith, Ranking Member
Neal, members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to tes-
tify today.
The PRAC was created by Congress to provide independent over-
sight of the approximately $5 trillion in pandemic relief spending,
and to help coordinate and support inspector general oversight.
Working with our local, state, and Federal oversight partners, in-
cluding the comptroller general and IG Turner, we are helping to
reduce fraud in pandemic programs and hold accountable those
who have stolen from them.
We are also advancing transparency through our website:
PandemicOversight.gov, by allowing the public to use interactive
tools to see how their money is being spent. Indeed, on
PandemicOversight.gov the public can find a spotlight section de-
tailing the over $800 billion on—spent on pandemic unemployment
insurance programs, and includes an interactive map on state re-
porting of their program integrity.
The PRAC raised concerns about pandemic unemployment insur-
ance program integrity shortly after the first programs were adopt-
ed. In June 2020 we convened stakeholders in a virtual listening
forum to hear from state workforce and unemployment agency
leaders about the massive increase in UI claims, resulting in a
strain on their systems and the need for greater Federal-state co-
operation on data sharing. We have worked closely with our state
and local counterparts on these issues, including providing them
with regular briefings and fraud alerts.
In December 2021, we issued a capstone report that can be found
on our website that shares 4 common challenges that states faced
in managing the pandemic unemployment insurance programs.
First, programs faced severe staffing shortages as claims surged.
Between March 14 and April 18, 2020, weekly unemployment
claims increased from about 225,000 to 5.3 million when the unem-
ployment rate reached 15 percent, the highest recorded rate since
1948.
Second, the claim surge exposed existing internal control weak-
nesses.
Third, complex and varying fraud schemes increased as the
amount of Federal funding grew.
Fourth, states experienced challenges verifying eligibility because
of outdated IT systems and the mass influx of claims.
Then, last year, we surveyed state workforce agencies and re-
leased a best practices report that can also be found on our
website. Among the best practices that we believe should be rep-
licated are increased use of cross-matching of data between state
agencies; improved coordination between SWAs and state and Fed-
eral law enforcement, local IGs, and state auditors; more effective
use of enterprise risk management; increased IT modernization ef-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
forts; and the use of advanced data analytics to build multi-layer
fraud defenses, including identity verification tools.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00077 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
70
Indeed, the PRAC itself has developed an advanced data ana-
lytics platform to help us oversee pandemic spending. The sophisti-
cated work of our data scientists has been instrumental in identi-
fying improper payments and fraudulent activity. Just last week
we issued a fraud alert highlighting the use of over 69,000 ques-
tionable Social Security numbers to obtain $5.4 billion in pandemic
loans and grants, as well as the importance of identity verification
tools. We recently received pandemic UI data, and we will be using
our analytics capabilities to search for potential fraud across these
programs.
We are also focusing on efforts to address identity theft, a huge
problem that grew exponentially during the pandemic.
In addition, we launched a fraud task force to enable us to better
coordinate OIG investigations, including those involving UI fraud,
to exchange information about fraud schemes, and to share re-
sources.
We also participated in the Justice Department’s COVID–19
Fraud Enforcement Task Force, and have detailed a PRAC analyst
to work on the National Unemployment Insurance Fraud Task
Force.
Finally, I would like to mention three legislative priorities for the
PRAC.
First, Congress should extend, as IG Turner mentioned, the stat-
ute of limitations from 5 to 10 years for pandemic-related unem-
ployment insurance fraud, as the Congress did last year for PPP
and EIDL fraud.
Second, Congress should raise the jurisdictional amount in the
program remedy—in the Program Fraud Civil Remedies Act from
$150,000 to $1 million, so IGs can more effectively pursue lower-
dollar frauds.
Finally, Congress should make permanent the PRAC’s data ana-
lytics platform. We need, on behalf of the taxpayers, that sophisti-
cated tool to prevent and detect fraud.
Thank you for the committee’s support, and I look forward to an-
swering your questions.
[The statement of Mr. Horowitz follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00078 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
71
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 063 here 53008A.063
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00079 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
72
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 064 here 53008A.064
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00080 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
73
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 065 here 53008A.065
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00081 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
74
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 066 here 53008A.066
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00082 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
75
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 067 here 53008A.067
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00083 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
76
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 068 here 53008A.068
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00084 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
77
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 069 here 53008A.069
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00085 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
78
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 070 here 53008A.070
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00086 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
79
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 071 here 53008A.071
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00087 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
80
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 072 here 53008A.072
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00088 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
81
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 073 here 53008A.073
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00089 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
82
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 074 here 53008A.074
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00090 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
83
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 075 here 53008A.075
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00091 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
84
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 076 here 53008A.076
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00092 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
85
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 077 here 53008A.077
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00093 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
86
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 078 here 53008A.078
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00094 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
87
Chairman SMITH. Thank you for your testimony. We will now
proceed to the question-and-answer session, and I will begin first.
Mr. Dodaro, your agency released an estimate of at least $60 bil-
lion in UI fraud, which I think we can all agree is scratching the
surface of this problem. I know our committee, Congress, and sure-
ly the American people would appreciate GAO continuing to inves-
tigate with your resources and size and scope of the UI fraud. And
you all have made such a commitment to do so.
When should this committee expect to receive an updated and
more expansive review of UI fraud from GAO?
Mr. DODARO. Yes. First I want to make clear that the $60 bil-
lion estimate, as we have reported, is the low end, the low esti-
mate. We are working on a higher-end estimate right now. We
should have something available in—later this summer to discuss
with the committee. We are taking two approaches. One, we are
doing some modeling approaches, and we also might need to take
a sample of transactions.
Part of the problem has been there has been not even an im-
proper payment rate yet for the pandemic unemployment insurance
program, which we think—and others—that has a higher level of
susceptibility to fraud.
So later this summer we should have those estimates available.
Chairman SMITH. Okay. And will you commit to coming to this
committee and requesting assistance, should you have any chal-
lenges getting information from the Biden Administration about UI
fraud?
Mr. DODARO. Absolutely.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Horowitz, last year, in his 2022 State of the Union address,
President Biden announced the creation of a chief pandemic pros-
ecutor to serve as director for COVID–19 fraud enforcement, and
to lead criminal and civil enforcement activities. The DoJ an-
nounced in March 2022 that Associate Deputy Attorney General
Kevin Chambers would serve in that role.
My understanding is Mr. Chambers left the role in December,
and the position is being temporarily filled by an acting director.
We invited the acting director to this hearing, but he declined to
show up.
Besides the apparently vacant role of the chief pandemic pros-
ecutor, DoJ also runs the National Unemployment Insurance Fraud
Task Force. But we have been unable to get the agency to share
any updates on what the task force is doing.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00095 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
88
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 079 here 53008A.079
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00096 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
89
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 080 here 53008A.080
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00097 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
90
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 081 here 53008A.081
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00098 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
91
So, what is the relationship between and what coordination, if
any, exists between the Pandemic Response Accountability Com-
mittee, the DoJ’s chief pandemic prosecutor, and the National Un-
employment Insurance Fraud Task Force?
Mr. HOROWITZ. So there is several interactions.
First of all, we have been a member of the Justice Department’s
task force since it was created. We attend their regular meetings,
we participate in the meetings with about 30 other law enforce-
ment agencies to make sure we are coordinated, and to make sure
cases are handled as we and our IG partners are developing infor-
mation.
As I mentioned in my opening statement, we have also detailed
one of our pandemic response accountability analysts to the task
force that deals with national unemployment insurance fraud to
support that effort. And we are doing all weekend with our re-
sources to support it.
I would have to refer you to the Justice Department for comment
about when they plan to fill the vacancy. I do know that the deputy
is the acting chair of it.
Chairman SMITH. Okay. Since we could not get them to come
and testify, do you have any insight as to what DoJ is doing to
identify and recover fraudulently paid unemployment benefits?
Mr. HOROWITZ. I do know, from our work with them and my
work as Justice Department inspector general as we refer cases to
the prosecutors around the country, that they are moving forward
with them.
I think one of the challenges the Department is having and pros-
ecutors are having, frankly, is triaging them and—given the re-
sources available and the surge in cases that you have heard about
from IG Turner, as well as we know from the SBA IG on PPP and
EIDL-related fraud. So, I think that has been one of the challenges.
One of the reasons we have asked for an increase in the Program
Fraud Civil Remedies Act jurisdictional amount is because of our
concern that lower-dollar frauds may not make it through that
thicket for prosecution. And we at least want to make sure we can
recover the money for the taxpayers.
Chairman SMITH. All right. Any insight into whether the Biden
Administration has any plan to appoint another chief pandemic
prosecutor, given that—the President’s prominent announcement
last year at the State of the Union? Or was that just a talking
point in 2022?
Mr. HOROWITZ. As I sit here, they have not consulted me—and
I wouldn’t expect them to—on their plans.
I would expect that to happen, and I would be happy to get back
to you, Mr. Chairman and the committee, with any data or infor-
mation you need from them if you haven’t received it.
Chairman SMITH. I appreciate all the information.
I now recognize the ranking member, Mr. Neal, for questions —
Mr. NEAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
So back to the facts. The unemployment rate, as Mr. Horowitz
pointed out, in the height of the pandemic was 15.4 percent. As of
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
last Friday, it was 3.4 percent. I think unemployment insurance
worked.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00099 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
92
Let me give you another number with facts: $849 billion, $60 bil-
lion—we know it is an estimate—that is 7.1 percent that is alleged
to be fraud at the moment. We have members of the former U.S.
attorney’s offices here. They know how long it takes to present
these cases. So as professional as this testimony has been, and we
are indeed grateful for it, I am disappointed that we didn’t hear
from any of our hard-working people who relied upon unemploy-
ment insurance to keep their lives afloat.
From that perspective, we know that state administrators and
workers, they dealt with a 3,000 percent increase in UI claims.
That paints a much more complicated picture.
Let me read a note from Meredith, a MomsRising member from
western Massachusetts: ‘‘UI, with the stimulus, has saved our fam-
ily. It is something we never imagined we would need, but we both
worked as administrators in education, one of us for study abroad
companies and another finding ourselves out of work for no fault
of our own but the pandemic and having a young daughter. We are
extremely mindful of every penny, and we are worried about the
coming months, not knowing when and if we will secure jobs. But
we want to pay our mortgages as we have, and our car payments,
our food, and our medical care. Please understand we live mod-
estly, more than most people will ever know, and always been re-
sponsible, financially. Our home is small, and one of the least ex-
pensive in our town. This is the first time in our lives that we ever
could imagine the possibility of not being able to pay for basic ex-
penses. It is profoundly stressful. For now, at least UI, with the
stimulus, ensured that we were able to pay our mortgage, our car
payments, our insurance, our food, and for essential family serv-
ices.’’
Mr. Turner, let me say how much I appreciate the work that you
and your staff have done in trying to bring about criminal fraud
rings to justice. Your work is putting criminals behind bars, and
returning the money they stole from the Treasury. Let me ask you
about paying for the good work that you do.
We provided immediate funding and support through the CARES
Act and then ARPA, and I know that work is ongoing. You asked
for $120 million from your office, and you received only $97 million
in appropriation for fiscal year 2023. I will ask you in a moment
if that is correct.
And last night, Joe Biden indicated that he intends to be asser-
tive and aggressive with criminal referrals from the Justice Depart-
ment.
Certainly, the proposal that we offered was not what was agreed
to in Congress in the final package.
Mr. Turner, could you talk about the impact of your work, and
what members of this committee should be doing to support your
goals?
Mr. TURNER. Well, one of the things that we try to do with our
work is to make sure that the funds that were going towards their
program is actually being used, and gets down to the correct recipi-
ent.
So, for instance, the $888 billion that goes towards that program,
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
our goal is always to make sure that we conduct audits to make
sure that it is getting there effectively and efficiently, and in a
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00100 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
93
timely way, and provide oversight, independent oversight by our in-
vestigators, to ensure that they can deter any kind of fraud that
may be taking place.
Mr. NEAL. Thank you, Mr. Turner. And I know that, based upon
the Justice Department, what U.S. attorneys do, seldom does a
would-be criminal or an individual who is suspect, if ever, walk
into a U.S. attorney’s office and say, ‘‘Hey, could you bring me up
to date on what you are doing with me?’’ That really doesn’t hap-
pen, does it?
Mr. TURNER. No, it takes a lot of hard work on the part of our
investigators to actually go out and find the culprits.
Mr. NEAL. In sophisticated criminal rings, they clearly tried to
outsmart the system regularly. So it takes the Justice Department
and the good work that U.S. attorney’s offices do across the country
considerable time in breaking down this criminal activity. Is that
correct?
Mr. TURNER. Yes. The more complex fraud is, the harder it is
to capture. For instance, I think someone mentioned earlier about
money mules. Money mules is one of the more complicated schemes
that are out there. And so it takes some time and some investiga-
tive work to get to those—to get to the bottom of those investiga-
tions.
Mr. NEAL. Thank you, Mr. Turner.
June 2020. The unemployment rate, as Mr. Horowitz pointed out,
was 15.4 percent, 20 million people had lost their jobs. The unem-
ployment rate, as reported last Friday after the noting of all those
jobs being created, is now 3.4 percent. Much of what we did really
worked, and I take great professional and personal satisfaction
from acknowledging there was no book on the shelf for what we
were doing. And overwhelmingly, we got the American economy
back on its feet.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentleman from Massa-
chusetts, and I now recognize the vice chairman of the committee,
Mr. Buchanan of Florida.
Mr. BUCHANAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank
our witnesses for being here today. I am glad we are finally focus-
ing on this crisis, which has been a magnet for theft and boon-
doggle for taxpayers’ dollars.
In total, GAO has found at least $60 billion stolen funds. The
DoL put the number as high as $191 billion improper payments,
with a significant amount due to fraud. Outside experts estimate
as high as $400 billion. So, it is something we clearly need to focus
on, and figure out how to do it better.
Mr. Dodaro, let me ask you. In Florida, I can tell you it was a
disaster. There were so many dollars coming in, we weren’t pre-
pared. We had low unemployment rate at the time. We didn’t have
the capacity, didn’t have the people, didn’t have the equipment. It
was like the F troop. Our office is getting hammered, everybody
was getting hammered in our state.
What are—where are we at today if we have another crisis and
we have got to be able to move dollars quickly? Because obviously,
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
nobody can imagine—when you talk about $800 billion, no matter
how you put it out there, we don’t have that kind of capacity. And
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00101 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
94
obviously, it might not be that—such a big number, but as a result
of that we ended up with 300 or 400 or 200—pick a number—in
fraud taxpayer monies out the door.
So give us your thought. What are we doing today to try to fix
that, so it is not as bad?
And hopefully, states are getting additional money, they are
going to invest some of the dollars, excess dollars they have got, to
make sure that we can minimize this in the future.
Mr. DODARO. I think we are slightly better prepared, but not
fully prepared for the next crisis. A number of our recommenda-
tions at the Labor Department have been not fully implemented
yet. I think states are trying to make improvements. There have
been some improvements that have been made, but they have all
been ad hoc. There hasn’t been a systematic approach to doing this
led by the Labor Department in conjunction with the states. And
I think that is needed.
Now, to make sure that Congress continues to focus on this
issue, you know, I added the unemployment insurance program to
a list of high-risk areas that we keep for the Congress and the Ad-
ministration to focus on. There are 38 areas on the list now, and
I am due to come up with an update across government soon. But
I added the unemployment insurance area.
There are problems also——
Mr. BUCHANAN. I only—I got a couple other questions.
Mr. DODARO. Okay, go ahead.
Mr. BUCHANAN. Let me get back to you.
Mr. DODARO. Yes.
Mr. BUCHANAN. Mr. Horowitz, let me mention, in terms of or-
ganized crime, organizations outside the U.S. We have got, obvi-
ously, some in the U.S., out of Africa, and different parts. Not just
this, ID and identity theft and everything else.
Where is that at today? And my thought is, how much do you
estimate, and what can we get back that is—you know, it is one
thing in different states, but looking at Africa and different coun-
tries around the world, they are taking advantage of the cir-
cumstances, as well.
Mr. HOROWITZ. Yes, Congressman, you are exactly right. We
have—one of the biggest challenges we have is following the fraud
that occurred through overseas gang activity and fraudsters. The
Secret Service reported that they have seen that occur through en-
tities in Nigeria, China, Russia, other locations. That will be our
biggest challenge——
Mr. BUCHANAN. What is that dollar amount? Do you have an
estimate, or any thought of it? A range?
Mr. HOROWITZ. I don’t. And one of the reasons I don’t, Con-
gressman, is that is among the hardest fraud to find, to track, and
figure out, because it is through overseas networks. It is a chal-
lenge.
I was a former Federal prosecutor. The process by which getting
that evidence is very challenging.
Mr. BUCHANAN. I have got one more question for Mr. Turner.
Mr. Turner, let me ask you. They claim, 70 percent of businesses,
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
if they could find workers they could do more business. That is the
mindset, at least, in Florida. I think I have heard that around the
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00102 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
95
country, they can’t get workers. Where are we at today in terms
of getting people back to work? Because there are—you do hear—
I have heard a lot of it, where people say, ‘‘Well, I don’t want to
go back to work. I got another six weeks of unemployment.’’ But
what is your sense of where we are at today on that?
Mr. TURNER. We have done some work in that area, and part
of what we found out is that there have been instances of where
people have not gone back to work. And we have asked the Depart-
ment, which has put out a policy to address that and have that in-
formation reported to the states when it occurs.
Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes, I just want you—I will get you the sur-
vey, but 70 percent of companies—small business I focus on pri-
marily, small to medium-sized businesses—claim they—if they had
more workers, they could do more business. So, it is a great oppor-
tunity for them. So, anything we can do to encourage people getting
back to work, setting the incentives up properly, would be really
appreciated.
Thank you, and I yield back.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00103 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
96
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 082 here 53008A.082
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00104 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
97
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 083 here 53008A.083
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00105 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
98
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 084 here 53008A.084
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00106 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
99
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentleman from Florida,
and now I recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Doggett.
Mr. DOGGETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Three years ago, with this devastating COVID–19 pandemic,
there were millions of Americans who found themselves not only in
a public health emergency, but an economic emergency. Through
no fault of their own, a sudden termination of their paycheck, they
found themselves jobless and unable to meet basic needs. Almost
overnight, it was a necessity to get access to unemployment insur-
ance to save their families from collapse.
I think it is very appropriate, Mr. Chairman, that this committee
exercise its oversight responsibilities to safeguard taxpayer dollars
from thieves and fraudsters.
Such fraud is hardly limited to the unemployment insurance pro-
gram. Indeed, I have never found a line item for waste, fraud, and
abuse in the Federal budget, but I have found fraud committed and
challenged and prosecuted for everyone from defense contractors to
pharmaceutical companies. Indeed, this very week the New York
Times reported that three of the five largest Medicare Advantage
insurance companies in the industry have been accused of fraud by
the Justice Department.
But what we don’t need is selective interest in fraud that seems
to be more focused on the unemployment insurance program, which
is vital to our country and our families, than about fraud which oc-
curred in it. Indeed, that selective enforcement was apparent with
the very first piece of legislation that our Republican colleagues of-
fered this year, when they seemed to have so little interest in fraud
in our tax system that they enacted legislation to undermine law
enforcement, even though it added $114 billion to our deficit.
I believe that, as we consider this program, we have to consider
not only the way the program was administered—and it needed to
be administered with less misconduct—but also the people that
were helped by that program and the challenges that they face. An
example is a fellow that my office helped in Austin, Bill Tarabula.
And Bill is a parking attendant in Austin. And when all the events
shut down at the city facilities, he lost his job. He contacted my of-
fice in March of 2020, and it wasn’t until August of 2020 that we
were finally able to get him the assistance that he needed.
The administration of the program—and there has been focus on
what the Department of Labor might have done better under the
Trump Administration and the Biden Administration. But the ad-
ministration of the program in Texas was a disaster. The program
was under-staffed. When it was apparent that the program was not
up to the task, it failed to add staff. I had people that would set
their alarms at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, because they were told
that was the only time that they could get through to get unem-
ployment benefits, and they couldn’t get through.
So, it is not a surprise to me that Texas, that failed so signifi-
cantly to meet the needs of worthy people, was not doing its job on
the fraud side, either.
I believe that, Mr. Dodaro, you have outlined things that could
have occurred and prevented some of this fraud. Because while the
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
prosecution is important, it never gets back all the dollars that are
lost that should be avoided through prevention.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00107 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
100
Now, of the many steps that you recommended ought to happen
to prevent unemployment fraud in the system at the Department
of Labor, did the Trump Administration implement any of them?
Mr. DODARO. Not fully at all. In fact——
Mr. DOGGETT. Yes——
Mr. DODARO [continuing]. We did a survey across government,
and the Labor Department reported to us that they were familiar
with the fraud framework, but they were not at a mature level.
When we went in and looked, and did more detailed work, we
found they were way short of implementing best practices to pre-
vent fraud.
Mr. DOGGETT. And in the Biden Administration I believe that
not all of your recommendations have been fully implemented yet,
but haven’t there been a number of additional resources, additional
dollars that were provided through the American Rescue Plan Act
to try to see that we address this problem?
And in addition to acknowledging the funds that have been allo-
cated, what do you feel is the most important step the Biden Ad-
ministration Department of Labor should take to try to see we
never have this happen again?
Mr. DODARO. Yes. The Labor Department has put some guid-
ance out, some tools that have been available. They have estab-
lished an identity verification approach, and provided some grants
to states, but they haven’t—all of those have been ad hoc. There
hasn’t been a systematic approach.
What we call for is designating a fraud entity full-time to focus
on this, do fraud risk profiles, develop an anti-fraud strategy, and
then to evaluate how well it is working, and then continuously
make improvements.
The nature of fraud changes dramatically, and you need to stay
abreast of what is going on, and we need to prevent this. As you
point out, you—this is a cultural shift that we have been trying to
advocate across government. Because when people think of fraud
in the past, they think of the inspector generals or GAO or others
to catch the crooks. But you don’t catch everybody, and you don’t
certainly recover all the money.
The only way to effectively deal with this is to prevent it up
front. And when you have more technology available now to do
cross-matches, to use different tools that are available, you should
be able to get the money out quickly, but also safeguard the Fed-
eral fisc.
Mr. DOGGETT. Thank you very much.
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentleman from Texas,
and now I recognize the gentleman from Nebraska, Mr. Smith.
Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you
to our witnesses. This is a very timely conversation that I will say
should have happened some time ago, but did not.
But in February 2022, the Biden Administration issued guidance
allowing states to forgo due diligence and fact-finding for large vol-
umes of suspicious unemployment claims, potentially involving bil-
lions of fraudulently-obtained taxpayer dollars. The guidance pro-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
vides multiple loopholes for how states may apply blanket waivers
of recovery of overpayments.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00108 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
101
For example, a state may accept without challenge that an indi-
vidual who responded ‘‘no’’ to being unemployed, partially unem-
ployed, or unable or unavailable to work is entitled to a waiver of
recovery of overpayments, with no determination as to whether the
individual was truthful in their response. This potentially allows
those perpetrating fraud within the UI system to continue, and
leaves hundreds of thousands of unresolved claims involving stolen
identities belonging to identity theft victims, including first re-
sponders, government personnel, and school employees.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record a letter that
Ways and Means Republicans sent to the Department of Labor on
February 18th, 2022, nearly a year ago, requesting an immediate
stay of the effective date of this guidance, and an explanation of
how the Department would ensure the guidance would not under-
mine existing investigations.
Chairman SMITH. Without objection, so ordered.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00109 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
102
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 085 here 53008A.085
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00110 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
103
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 086 here 53008A.086
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00111 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
104
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 087 here 53008A.087
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00112 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
105
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 088 here 53008A.088
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00113 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
106
Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Thank you. In their response to our let-
ter, DoL said that the guidance was developed in response to re-
quests from states, which were ‘‘seeking greater efficiencies in the
use of limited government resources. States noted that it was tak-
ing a significant amount of time and resources to process waivers
on a case-by-case basis for overpayments.’’
DoL also responded that the guidance specifically instructed
states that they may not waive overpayments due to fraud. This re-
sponse was far from reassuring. In fact, DoL’s response increased
my concern regarding this waiver policy, which is still in place
today, because it suggests that states were dealing with a backlog
of suspicious claims, and DoL provided an easy opportunity for
them to forgo the investigation and fact-finding needed to know
whether they were fraudulent in the first place. It further elimi-
nated any incentive for states to track down fraud.
This action is particularly reckless in light of White House esti-
mates the Federal and state UI program had a 22.2 percent im-
proper payment rate for fiscal year 2022.
Mr. Turner, my question is for you. One of the questions we
asked in our letter was whether DoL consulted with your office be-
fore issuing this guidance. Given the OIG’s work on ensuring recov-
ery of taxpayer dollars, I would like to understand how your work
will continue, now that this guidance is in place and, in particular,
any impact on your ability to initiate and conduct investigation and
prosecution of fraudulent activity in pandemic unemployment pro-
grams.
My understanding is that this is part of your revised pandemic
oversight plan.
Mr. TURNER. Thanks, Representative. Let me just say we do
plan on doing some work on fiscal year 2023 to review that policy.
It was a policy the Department made. It was a policy that was a
programmatic decision, which we do not have any oversight of at
that point.
Because that was their decision as—independence, we have over-
sight at the end of the day. But they did consult—they did not con-
sult with us. They made us aware that this is what they were
doing with the policy. And so, because we could not advise them,
we did make it a point to take a look at that, because we do believe
that there is a possibility that fraud could take place, although
they did tell us that they were going to put a waiver out. And we
expect to take a look again before the year is out.
Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Okay, thank you. And how many of
these waivers have been issued, and is DoI collecting the data at
all, or is it just not ending up where it needs to go?
Mr. TURNER. At this point we do not know how many waivers
have been issued, as far as across the country. But that is why that
work is so important as we take a closer look at it.
Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. And so, I mean, there is no way to
know up until this point?
Mr. TURNER. Well, we were asked to take a look at it. I think,
last fiscal year, and we decided to put that on our audit plan this
year. So, in the spring we are going to take a look and find out just
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
the extent of the problem.
Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Okay, I thank you.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00114 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
107
And Mr. Chairman, I hope that, you know, in light of the cir-
cumstances of COVID, and I think well-intended efforts on the part
of this committee and, you know, this Administration, the previous
Administration, everyone involved at the time, that we can avoid
the bad things that happened previously.
I worry that, after last night’s speech, we are in a worse place
perhaps than ever before in terms of what we need to do and what
we need to accomplish working together.
Thank you, I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. I couldn’t agree more, Mr.—Representative.
The taxpayers deserve that.
I am pleased to recognize the gentleman from California, Mr.
Thompson.
Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to
thank the witnesses for being here today and for the great work
that you do in your public service.
As was stated, starting in March of 2020, the spread of COVID–
19 crippled the global economy. We lost 22 million jobs in this
country, 2.7 million of those from my home state of California, 22
million lives disrupted, 22 million individuals wondering how they
were going to pay their bills or put food on the table, as Mr. Neal’s
constituent letter gave credence to.
In response, Congress acted in an unprecedented bipartisan man-
ner to quickly deliver desperately-needed relief to families, work-
ers, and businesses across all of our communities. This included a
temporary payment increase for unemployment benefits, and emer-
gency relief for small businesses such as restaurants. It is esti-
mated that these measures kept more than 5 million people out of
poverty in 2020, and 6 million more in 2021. Because of what we
did, our constituents were able to pay their rent, purchase gro-
ceries, and keep the lights on.
And these dollars were spent locally, multiplying across the com-
munity, keeping businesses open. This support provided vital—sup-
port proved vital to our communities and foundational to our eco-
nomic recovery. Because of our efforts, by July 2022 all jobs lost
during the pandemic had been recovered. And just last Friday, the
Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that the unemployment rate
was 3.4 percent, the lowest since 1969.
Sadly, my Republican colleagues are using today’s hearing to
smear a critical benefit to American workers, rather than propose
any sort of agenda or idea on their own to address these issues.
Fraud happened. No one is disputing that, and no one on this
dais supports fraud. I think fraud is bad, and we should go after
it in this case and in any other instance. But my Republican col-
leagues seem more interested in disparaging the underlying pro-
gram.
Every single House Republican voted against the $2 million for
states and Federal agencies to fight fraud and recover those tax-
payer dollars that we are talking about today. These are the very
tools that enabled our witnesses today to do their good work, to
crack down on this fraud. It is important. Unfortunately, this
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
sounds less about Republicans preventing fraud and more about
them, as I said, disparaging a program that kept millions of fami-
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00115 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
108
lies afloat, and provided a powerful stimulus to our economic recov-
ery.
Mr. Dodaro, during the pandemic, unemployment insurance gave
8,665,000 Californians, including thousands of my constituents, a
critical lifeline by keeping them out of poverty until it was safe to
return to the workforce. What did the dozens of high-quality re-
search studies GAO reviewed say about the effect that providing UI
benefits during the pandemic had on our economic stability?
Mr. DODARO. Yes, we looked at 30 empirical studies that have
been done and found that it was very helpful. The conclusion of the
studies was it was very helpful for supporting the economy, keep-
ing the problem from getting worse, and actually providing a lot of
assistance to individual people to, as has been mentioned, pay rent,
health care, et cetera.
Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you very much.
Mr. Horowitz, you said something in your statement that really
caught my attention. You said it is your desire, your mission, your
agency’s efforts to hold accountable these people that defrauded our
government and took this money.
I have yet to see many programs where—private or public sec-
tor—where fraud isn’t in existence. And we see—you can walk
across the parking lot out here in the Capitol and see where the
bricks that they put in when they remodeled don’t match, and they
are all chipped. I was at the board in El Paso last week, and I saw
where the contractor who built the wall didn’t put cement in the
iron pilings, and they are able to cut right through them.
Are you going to be able to hold these fraudsters accountable and
get back a lot of this money?
Mr. HOROWITZ. Congressman, you are right. When you have
programs, no matter what the program is, you are going to find
fraud.
There were several things with the various pandemic programs
that exacerbated it, like self-certification and, as we have talked
about, lack of preparedness, given what occurred, when it occurred,
and how it occurred.
Having said that, we are using every tool Congress has given
us—and you have given us a number of important tools—to go
after fraud. We are going to use criminal tools, we are going to use
civil tools, administrative tools, suspension, and debarment. We are
going to use all of those.
It is very important, though, that some of those be enhanced, as
I mentioned, with the extension of the statute of limitations——
Mr. THOMPSON. I understand. Thank you for the work, thank
you for your answer, and good luck.
Mr. HOROWITZ. Thank you.
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentleman, and I am
pleased to recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Kelly.
Mr. KELLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being
here today.
You know, so this hearing is supposed to be about fraud. We
can’t do anything unless we get away from policy and talk about
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
politics, because we always got to play this game about who struck
John. In the meantime, hard-working American taxpayers are the
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00116 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
109
ones that put all this money into this system that was stolen from
them.
Can any one of you—Mr. Dodaro from Monessen, Pennsylvania,
home of the Greyhounds—can any of you tell me what the amount
of the fraud is?
Mr. DODARO. We have estimated in the unemployment insur-
ance area, at the low end, $60 billion. We are working on a higher-
degree estimate.
We are also trying to—and this has never been done before—do
an estimate as to the total amount of fraud across the entire Fed-
eral Government. And we are working on that. Maybe later this
year we will have an estimate if we can have comfort in it.
Mr. KELLY. So just a ballpark, you are saying 60——
Mr. DODARO. Well, it is $60 billion, at a minimum, and just in
the unemployment insurance area.
Mr. KELLY. Okay, so it is, you know, a billion here, a billion
there. Pretty soon it gets really heavy.
Mr. Turner, any—just give me an idea what the amount of fraud
is.
Mr. TURNER. We have estimated it to be about $76 billion, and
that is based on the latest data that we received from the Depart-
ment.
Mr. KELLY. Okay.
Mr. TURNER. The Department had 8.5 as the fraud rate that
they just released based on $888 billion for the program. So, we be-
lieve, at the low end, it is $76 billion.
Mr. KELLY. Seventy-six billion?
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. KELLY. That is with a B. Okay.
Mr. Horowitz.
Mr. HOROWITZ. Congressman, what I have said before is, with
all of the investigations we have ongoing, as well as the overseas
work we still have to do, it is way too early for us to give an esti-
mate. What I have said is I am—it is in the tens of billions of dol-
lars. You have heard these numbers.
Mr. KELLY. Yes.
Mr. HOROWITZ. It won’t surprise me if it exceeds $100 billion.
And as we go along over the next several years, we will get a better
sense of exactly the scope of the fraud.
Mr. KELLY. Okay. Well, the real intention, I think, of the meet-
ing today, which our chairman pointed out, is we wait too long to
look into what is happening with hard-working American tax-
payers’ money.
Every—all this fraud lands on the same shoulders that it always
lands on, and that is our taxpayers. And I get so fed up to come
into meetings where all we do is point fingers about who struck
John, and never come up with the answer to what the hell are we
doing to fix this.
Nobody in the private sector would run a business this way, and
I am constantly baffled by the people who own this, why they are
not outraged.
I am not blaming any of you for what you are doing. I think you
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
get in here every day—Mr. Dodaro, I still wonder, why are you
spending so much of your life doing all this? You are dedicated to
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00117 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
110
it, and I get that. But when we have these hearings, what the hell?
We are talking about—we are up to our neck in alligators, and we
are trying to find out who was supposed to drain the swamp. In
the meantime, this is being funded by people who get up every day,
some working two jobs and their wife helping out, working another
job to put food on the table and a roof over their head.
We have so many huge problems with this business model, and
we know that nobody in the private sector could possibly run a
business like this, because they can’t borrow endlessly, or they
can’t print it if they need it. This is an irresponsible model that
continues to burn through hard-working taxpayers’ pockets, and we
are sitting about—is it a Democrat problem or is it a Republican
problem? Damn it, it is an American problem.
Mr. Dodaro, you wanted to——
Mr. DODARO. Yes. I continue to pursue my public service to be
the taxpayer’s friend.
Mr. KELLY. God love you.
Mr. DODARO. At GAO we return $145 to every dollar spent on
us over the last five years, on average.
Mr. KELLY. Yes, yes.
Mr. DODARO. This is a problem, regardless of the administra-
tion. In a few months I will be—have worked at GAO for 50 years.
I have seen this problem over a period of time.
[Applause.]
Mr. DODARO. Thank you. I hope to make it.
Mr. KELLY. Yes, you are going to make. You are from around
the Pittsburgh area, and we are tough.
Mr. Dodaro. But I have—and in my statement today—10 legisla-
tive suggestions——
Mr. KELLY. Yes.
Mr. DODARO [continuing]. For Congress.
First of all, in any new program or an increase in spending over
100 million, $100 million, it ought to be immediately susceptible to
improper payments, given the problem we have. Right now, pro-
grams can be in operation two or three years and never estimate
the amount of improper payments. This just doesn’t make sense.
And some of these programs will fully expire before you even know
early on.
And I have got other legislative solutions. So, there are things
Congress can do to make this better.
Mr. KELLY. You know what? First of all, I have run out of time.
Thank you for what you have done with your life. It is just incred-
ible, the service you have been to the American people.
I would tell my colleagues; I don’t care if you wear a red shirt
or a blue shirt. Start thinking about wearing red, white, and blue,
and stop pointing fingers at each other.
I know I am going beyond what you have given me, Mr. Chair-
man, but if we don’t stop what we are doing right now—and look,
let’s fix the model, instead of trying to figure out who it is that
dropped the ball. You know, and we can’t do it, because every two
years we come up for election, and we got to make sure that we
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
can still get that one more vote than who we are running against,
as opposed to let’s fix this damn thing.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00118 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
111
Okay, Mr. Dodaro, thank you. Mr. Turner, thank you. Mr. Horo-
witz, thank you for coming here, and thank you for what you are
doing. You guys are incredible. Thank you.
Chairman SMITH. Representative, when you were talking about
the hard-earned taxpayers and small business owners, it made me
think of Ashley Bachman, our—one of our witnesses at our hearing
on Monday in West Virginia. She was asked the question, ‘‘If you
operated your business like Washington, what would happen?’’ And
Ms. Ashley Bachman said, ‘‘We would have to close our doors
down.’’ And that is from a real small business owner, and a real
American.
Mr. KELLY. Yes, you know——
Chairman SMITH. So, based on your testimony, it made me
think of that.
Mr. KELLY. Yes, yes, thank you. But I am a small business
owner. I—third generation, and I remember one time we were talk-
ing about Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. I made the comment that it was
four times in my life that I didn’t pay any taxes at all, and the rest
of the committee looked at me and said, ‘‘Well, how the hell did you
do that?’’ I said, we lost money that year.
Chairman SMITH. That is right.
Mr. KELLY. So, if you have a model that works, you use it.
But I really do, I am imploring all of us. It is not about red and
blue. It is not about Rs and Ds. It is about the people who elected
us to come here and act in their best interest. So, I appreciate this.
We have so much to look into and so much to get done, because
we are accountable to so many people who just fund this incredible
model.
So, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Witnesses, thank you so much.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you.
Mr. KELLY. I really appreciate you being here.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
recognize the gentleman from Oregon, Mr. Blumenauer.
Mr. BLUMENAUER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think this is
an extraordinarily valuable hearing and exercise to give us a sense
of what the challenges are. And frankly, it has been an amazing
reminder for me of what we were going through during that
fraught period.
I was going to my office at 7:00 in the morning, trying to deal
with people who were desperate because they couldn’t crack the
unemployment system. And that, frankly, we—all hands on deck
for that. These people were in danger of losing their business, los-
ing their homes. They were frantic that they couldn’t get through.
Now, this was a state failure. The Federal Government gave
money. Texas wasn’t the only state. I heard this around the coun-
try. You probably had that experience in your office, dealing with
desperate people.
And so, this hearing helps us set the context, and is a powerful
reminder for me of what we were going through, being over-
whelmed by demands, a 3,000 percent increase in unemployment
insurance claims. That is the reality that we were facing. On bal-
ance, I think I am appalled at the amount of fraud that occurred.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
But given the urgency, trying to help desperate people, I under-
stand why we were there.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00119 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
112
The question is, how do we make sure that we are no longer
there?
Mr. Dodaro, you mentioned that you gave recommendations to
the previous Administration, and couldn’t find, in the midst of this,
that they were moving forward.
I agree with Mr. Kelly. I am not interested in pointing fingers
one way or another. But I do think it is important that we don’t
lose track of the hard work of oversight, that we claw back every
dime that we can, and that we are prepared for the next contin-
gency, because it is coming. We know that. And we can learn from
those valuable lessons.
I think it is important, however, to put some of these things in
context. My friend, Mr. Kelly, wondered how the business model
continues the way we are doing it. I would like to offer one other
area. There is 6—there is $468 billion to $600 billion a year of
taxes due and owing that we are not collecting. It is up to $7 tril-
lion over the next 10 years. There is no business in your district
that would sustain losses on that order of magnitude with the ac-
counts receivable, with the accounts receivable. We know where
that fraud—it is fraud, cheating, breaking the law—is. It is inter-
esting that higher earners like partnership income, proprietorship
income, rental income—non-compliance can reach 55 percent.
Now, I hope that the indignation that we are expressing towards
a program that was meant to save desperate people, that that can
be transferred to an area of much greater loss. There are some peo-
ple that think maybe we ought to threaten default on the national
debt because they are concerned about deficit spending. This is up
to $7 trillion. That is not new taxes, it is not cutting programs. It
is collecting money that is due and payable to the Federal Govern-
ment, and it is keeping faith with the hard-working majority of
people who actually pay their taxes.
So, I hope that we keep this spirit of concern for oversight and
economy, and zero in on the people who cheated the Federal Gov-
ernment on unemployment insurance. But I hope there is still an
air of indignation about the far greater source of lost revenues
from, primarily, rich people who forget to declare their income.
That is even more important, and this is an ongoing loss of rev-
enue, 500, $600 billion a year that is lost.
Mr. Kelly, we can’t keep doing business if we are not collecting
money that is due and payable. That is not keeping faith with
small businesspeople that you represent or I represent. So, I hope
we can make this a constructive effort on oversight, but that we
have a broader sense of responsibility and reclaiming lost revenue.
Thank you. I appreciate your indulgence.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I recognize the
gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Schweikert.
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Turner, I appreciated reading over your testimony, but I
could really use your help in—and I know there is unknowns here.
So, your number of either fraudulent or missed payments, was that
number—what, I was seeing $198 billion was the estimate?
Mr. TURNER. A hundred and ninety-one.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay, 191. And if the program was about
$800 billion, so your number is—about 20 percent of all the pay-
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00120 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
113
ments that went out essentially got tagged in some fashion or other
of being a mispayment or being fraudulent.
Mr. TURNER. That is correct.
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. First off, how comfortable are you with that
198—or, excuse me, 191, I want to make sure I quote you properly.
It is—what is the model in your head, from your researchers, that
say that number could be more? Or is it less?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I believe that is—we believe that is the low
end, and we believe that number could be more, because that does
not include the PUA, which dealt with the self-certification in the
first nine months.
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay, you beat me to my punch line, so—
you take away my shtick. But there is where I want to go. What
is their—let’s go on the—way outside of the tail on the curve.
Mr. TURNER. Okay.
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. What do they think it could be, total?
Mr. TURNER. I have no way of knowing that. I know the De-
partment——
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Is it potentially double?
Mr. TURNER. I have no way of knowing that. The Department
is planning on putting out the rate for the PUA at the end of the
year.
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay.
Mr. TURNER. And so that would give us a better understanding
of what the number may look like.
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. You see, one of the things that angers me
in our hearing right here—and we are all sinners here—is I never
want this to happen again. And I wish we would have a much more
detailed conversation of, okay, so we see a couple hundred billion
dollars, mispayments, we believe a substantial number of that is
fraud, and the number could be substantially higher than that.
How do you do it?
At some point—and I am going to ask from my inspector general
and others, send me a little chart. Send me a booklet. Send me
something so I can understand. How is the fraud committed?
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00121 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
114
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 089 here 53008A.089
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00122 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
115
I actually want to understand down to the mechanics the syn-
dicates that flooded when—my wife, who was running a fairly large
surgery center in Scottsdale, Arizona was getting dozens every day
of unemployment claims for people who had never worked at her
surgery center. It was particularly interesting when she got an un-
employment claim for herself, when she is running the surgery cen-
ter. She brought that home, and thought that was actually—she
wanted me to fix it.
And I am just losing my mind because the numbers of folks we
had calling us saying, ‘‘I am running a business, and I am getting
unemployment claims dramatically more than the number of em-
ployees I have ever had,’’ is that buying data sets off the dark web?
Is that the Office of Personnel Management data breaches?
Where did they get the—first, the data sets? Did they write bots
that automatically kept filling out applications?
Then, when the checks went out, how did they get people to actu-
ally get those addresses, collect the checks?
How do they convert those checks to cash? How did that cash ac-
tually turn into bitcoin or something else? How did it get offshore?
Help us understand the mechanisms in the fraud, because if we
are going to stop it, I know we have two things—and forgive me
for rambling, a lot of coffee today—I understand much of what we
look at, we need a revolution of the data, and this is the data from
the IRS, to this and that. We need to understand that data is actu-
ally the solution.
But I also want to understand how the criminal networks stole
billions and billions from our people. I mean, am I asking some-
thing—it is too difficult?
Mr. TURNER. No, you are not. Actually, it was a combination of
a lot of things you mentioned. But it all mostly starts with stolen
identification.
When self-certification took place the first nine months, there
was no kind of verification required to say that you deserved those
payments, and that was part of the problem the IG notified the De-
partment about, because we sent an alert memo out. We said we
also briefed the members——
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. But Mr. Turner, I am less concerned about
the bureaucracy telling this person, telling that person. I am—right
now want to understand the mechanism.
If—I had my state unemployment offices, and we had made it so
they had access to commercial data sets. I mean, commercial data
sets out there know what type of ice cream I used to eat, and my
favorite flavor. You know, they have—our ability to say we are
going to do red light-green light, bounce off the types of data out
there, is it is our failure to understand the technology that is all
around us because we are still promoting archaic systems?
Mr. TURNER. Well, let me give you a better example that would
probably help clear this up.
So, for instance, stolen Social Security numbers, a lot of time you
can buy them on the dark web for $0.05. And so, a lot of this is
multi-state claims that have been filed. In one case we had an indi-
vidual file in 42 different states, and they are getting that money
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
back in terms of debit cards. So, it is cash to them, and that is hard
to kind of keep track of.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00123 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
116
And so, over time, when you start getting organized crime and
street gangs involved in this, those numbers multiply.
Mr. SCHWEIKERT. That—Mr. Chairman, thank you for your
patience with me. I think it would be fascinating, either from Over-
sight Committee or full committee, I would love to bring in some
of the perpetrators of the crime, you know, who have been con-
victed. You know, we have done it before. Bring them in, sit them
in here, say, ‘‘Tell us how you stole billions of people’s money,’’ and
we understand what the hell is really going out the—on—in our
neighborhoods.
Thank you, Mr.——
Mr. TURNER. And if I could just add one thing, Mr. Chairman,
I will give you an example how that took place. For instance, we
identified $45.6 billion—million dollars—billion dollars, I am sorry,
in potential fraud. And it happened because they sold the Social
Security numbers of deceased individuals, federal inmates, multi-
claims, and suspicious emails. And that was potentially what took
place. And we shared that information with the states.
Mr. DODARO. Mr. Chairman, if I might ask for an indulgence?
Chairman SMITH. Very quickly.
Mr. DODARO. For years I have been trying to get Congress to
pass legislation to allow the Treasury Department to get the total
Death Master File from the Social Security Administration. I was
finally successful during the pandemic to do the data matching
that should have been done beforehand to prevent people from—de-
ceased people from receiving payments and allowing people to ex-
ploit this.
I am still making a recommendation to expedite that because
Congress gave three years before it became effective. And it is only
permanently in place for——
Chairman SMITH. All right——
Mr. KELLY. I can buy that data right now on my laptop.
Chairman SMITH. Mr. Schweikert——
Mr. KELLY. I mean, it exists right now.
Chairman SMITH. Yes——
Mr. DODARO. Not the complete one.
Chairman SMITH. We need to move on. Thank you very much.
Let’s recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Pascrell.
Mr. PASCRELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, to-
day’s hearing on the monumental and lifesaving investments we
have made during the pandemic, it is important.
My friend from Arizona, could it—I agree with much of what he
has said. But we are not going to throw out the program, it seems
both sides are saying in between words, because there is fraud in
the program. But you need to do something about it to get rid of
the fraud.
No one up here is advocating fraud, stealing, breaking the law.
So, we change it. We presented changes in the original program
that we are talking about today. We know who voted for it and we
know who voted against it. Just remember that.
I think Congress acted decisively and in a bipartisan way in the
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
face of an historic crisis to keep America safe. Our unemployment,
our aid kept families together and saved lives. That is a big deal.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00124 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
117
More than 1.5 million Garden Staters—New Jersey folks—re-
ceived unemployment benefits from March 2022 to September
2021. It stopped mortgage defaults. It kept the electricity on, be-
lieve it or not. It put food on tables and in children’s stomachs.
In March 2021 we passed the American Rescue Plan. Where
were we? Because the crisis continued. It included unemployment
and strong enforcement protections. President Biden used those
protections to prosecute frauds. You either voted for it, or you voted
against it, or you didn’t vote. States recovered nearly $100 million.
Enforcement was working.
Republicans claim to care about misuse. I agree, we should all.
But every Republican Congress voted for the Trump-Mnuchin plan
that did not have fraud protections, and every Republican voted
against our fraud protections. It is the record. You can’t change
that every other day, or show us a different perspective of it. You
either did it or you didn’t do it.
Our plan kept people alive, one of the most successful laws ever
enacted. Last month our economy added over half-a-million jobs.
Job growth is at a 40-year high. You have heard the chairman—
the ranking member—say that many times. Unemployment is at
the 54-year low, and the Biden economy isn’t doing so bad. Every
job lost during the pandemic was recovered. All our economic out-
put lost is regained. Our pandemic measures exceeded expecta-
tions. We emerged stronger than any other country.
You know, the problem of inflation did not happen—I want to an-
nounce this—did not only happen in the United States of America.
Thank you.
I am happy to work together to ensure Federal dollars are spent
and spent well. Frauds need to be held accountable and prosecuted.
But this hearing isn’t about fraud. This hearing is about shaming
workers and lying about our strong economy. You didn’t one mo-
ment last night choose to recognize that.
The truth is our actions saved lives and saved the American peo-
ple. And I say, Mr. Chairman, that this is a very good hearing, be-
cause not only are we bringing some facts out today, both sides, but
we go back into the history of the program we are talking about
and looking at those facts.
And I yield back to the chairman.
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentleman.
I want to remind the committee that this hearing is about fraud.
It is clearly not about shaming any worker. In fact, every dollar
going to fraud is a dollar that did not go to those who needed it.
And that is our responsibility, as Members of Congress, to make
sure that taxpayers’ dollars are going to the right places. So, it is
clearly about fraud.
I am pleased to recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr.
Arrington.
Mr. ARRINGTON. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, witnesses.
I have heard repeatedly comments from my colleagues that no
one here on the committee is advocating for fraud. I agree. I don’t
think fraud is acceptable to a single Democrat or Republican.
But if we are going to talk about the facts, the fact is there was
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
$1 trillion still unspent from the previous COVID relief package
that was bipartisan. There were several bipartisan relief packages
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00125 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
118
that we worked on together. And the Democrats, my colleagues,
went alone with $2 trillion. And the facts are we repeatedly, re-
peatedly warned them about not including guardrails, the ounce of
prevention that would be the cure for pounds—tens, if not hun-
dreds of billions of dollars—in improper payments and fraud and
waste. And they did not heed. Not a single amendment.
I mean, we must have had hundreds of amendments. Not one
amendment was taken. I understand their commitment, and I un-
derstand the extenuating circumstances. And I, quite frankly, un-
derstand the need for speed and some of the mess that comes with
that. But we were way down the road from needing to rush some-
thing, when we had $1 trillion still unspent, and we had learned
from the previous mistake of paying people too much, where they
were, literally, perversely incentivized to stay at home and off the
payroll. That was a mistake, but it wasn’t acknowledged. It wasn’t
included in our counsel, and that was a huge mistake.
And there weren’t guardrails so that we could get ahead of this
on the front end. We knew there was a lot of money, and we knew
that, with 150 some-odd billion dollars in improper payments al-
ready, as has been discussed, this was going to be a disastrous
waste of taxpayer money. That is poor stewardship. It just is.
So, there is a saying that used to be on a sign outside of our
former head football coach’s office at Texas Tech, the great Mike
Leach. And it said, ‘‘You are either coaching it or allowing it to
happen.’’ It is a statement of accountability. You are either coach-
ing it directly, or you are indirectly allowing it to happen.
So yes, I don’t think that you, any of my colleagues on the other
side of the aisle, advocate for fraud. But they allowed it to happen,
and they didn’t take our common-sense counsel because they want-
ed to jam a partisan bill, no matter how good their intentions were,
through the process, and taxpayers have paid mightily.
Were people helped? Sure. I am certain they were. You can’t
throw $1 trillion, almost, at a problem and not help somebody, for
heaven’s sakes. That is not the question. The question is, are we
acting as leaders of the greatest country in the world, and as stew-
ards on behalf of the greatest people in the world? The answer in
this regard is no, we failed.
I am sure my party has had their shortcomings along the way,
and I will try to readily concede when we do. That was a failure
on your part. Let’s not repeat it. For heaven’s sakes, can’t we agree
on just that fact, if we are concerned about facts? The facts are
that we turned the trampoline into a trap, and the safety net into
a hammock because of these policies.
I got 43 seconds. The debt is amassing at an alarming rate. A
crisis related will be catastrophic. Mr. Dodaro, you know that as
well as anybody on this dais. We have to recoup this money. Every
year I hear the same numbers. We got to get our arms around the
150 or the 160. In 2021, it was $280 billion. But nothing ever hap-
pens. What are we going to do to recoup America’s hard-earned
money so that we can help reduce the spend, bend the debt curve,
and save this country from a much bigger crisis than what we have
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
experienced even in the pandemic, and maybe even any crisis to
date?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00126 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
119
And I took all the time, but if he would just—Chairman, if you
would indulge Mr. Dodaro just to make a quick response?
Chairman SMITH. Proceed, please.
Mr. DODARO. Congressman Arrington, I have said for a long
time and written that the Federal Government is on an
unsustainable long-term fiscal path. I recommended that we put a
plan in place to have guardrails, a debt-to-GDP ratio, some kind of
framework for guiding future decisions.
I have also recommended changes to the—how we set the debt
ceiling issue. I think that there is a better way to do it at the time
revenue and expenditure decisions are made in the beginning that
avoids a potential cliff crisis.
I have also said that we have problems on both ends of revenue.
As was mentioned earlier, we have got a tax gap exceeding $400
billion that is not coming in. It should be, under current tax law.
We are sending out 200 billion that shouldn’t be sent out.
And so, we have got a lot of problems. We have got a lot of rec-
ommendations to deal with these issues. And I think these imple-
mentation issues of current policies can be done a lot better and
more effectively to protect the taxpayers and to deal with our long-
term deficit and debt issues.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you. I thank the representative. I rec-
ognize the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Davis.
Mr. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I listened to my friend
from Texas, I was reminded of a saying that the Panthers used to
use, and that was: ‘‘you are either part of the solution or you are
part of the problem.’’
Between February and May 2020, Illinois lost almost 1.8 million
jobs, with over half-a-million workers left jobless in the Chicago
area alone. Our swift bipartisan response to pass the CARES Act
prevented unthinkable hardship for millions of people in Illinois
and tens of millions across the nation.
No one should get away with criminal fraud, which is why I was
proud to help provide the Biden Administration and the inspectors
general with dedicated fraud-fighting resources in the American
Rescue Plan, resources that led to over 1,500 defendants being
criminally charged, and the recovery of billions of dollars.
The actions of these criminals should not distract from the fact
that pandemic unemployment insurance kept an estimated five
million people a year from falling into poverty, met revenue and
customers for businesses that were still open, allowed workers at
high risk COVID to stay safer during a pandemic that dispropor-
tionately killed Black and Brown people.
My staff and I took thousands of calls from constituents who
needed help. The Chicago economy relies a great deal on tourism,
hospitality, and the arts, all of whose workers needed pandemic un-
employment benefits to survive.
I am disappointed that we do not have the opportunity today to
hear from workers who relied on UI during the pandemic. So let
me just share a story from Bonnie in Chicago, and here is what she
said: ‘‘We are a dual freelancer home in the theater/TV industry,
with two children. We had to file unemployment for the first time
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
in our lives. Our industry is shuttered for the foreseeable future,
with no end in sight. And with the huge unemployment rate, no-
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00127 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
120
body has even called us for an interview, let alone a job offer. With-
out the extra boost, we would be unable to cover the mortgage, pay
our bills, our health insurance, which is all out of pocket, or keep
our kids fed. I think we qualified for something paltry, like $500
a month in unemployment, which covers virtually nothing, with the
high cost of living in Chicago.’’
I am deeply proud that the pandemic unemployment assistance
provided relief during a crisis, and I reject this Republican concern
for fraud when they remain silent when the Trump Administration
failed to implement GAO’s anti-fraud recommendations, and when
they opposed the anti-fraud funding that this committee’s Demo-
crats secured.
Mr. Dodaro, in the Rescue Plan, we put $2 billion in there to
help states by giving grants to them. Could you measure what this
program actually does, and what it did?
Mr. DODARO. The program is intended to help with—combat
fraud, also to look at ways to make sure there is equity in the pro-
gram, to deliver customer service, more timely payments.
We also found some disparities in the amount of payments that
were going to different racial groups, and we are, in our continuing
ongoing work, going to be looking specifically at what the two bil-
lion was used for, and we will be reporting to the committee.
Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much. Congratulations on your long
tenure.
And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. In regard to the
$2 billion that the gentleman from Illinois just mentioned about, I
actually asked my Department of Labor in the State of Missouri to
ask if it worked. And I would like to submit for the record this let-
ter that she presented.
It says more—one of the lines in it says, ‘‘More recent funding
opportunities, such as the Equity and Tiger Teams grants, provided
limited flexibility to address program integrity and ongoing fraud
prevention strategies.
Without objection, I would like to put it in the record.
So ordered.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00128 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
121
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 090 here 53008A.090
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00129 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
122
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 091 here 53008A.091
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00130 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
123
Chairman SMITH. I would like to recognize the gentleman from
Oklahoma, Mr. Hern.
Mr. HERN. Mr. Chairman, thank you for hosting this important
hearing. It has been a long time coming.
Let me be clear that unemployment fraud is not a new issue.
However, no one here can deny that since the start of the pandemic
the number of fraudulent claims has skyrocketed. I know I am not
the only one here who has experienced this firsthand.
Now, I first shared my story during a roundtable hosted last year
by my Republican colleagues on this very topic. From their lack of
action, it is increasingly evident that the Democrats, my Demo-
cratic colleagues, are—still aren’t grasping the scope of this issue.
So let me show you.
So, this right here is a box, a 27-pound box that I had my staff
go dig out of storage, had my folks back home dig out of storage.
And it represents, from March 2020 to April 21, 789 fraudulent
claims on an employee base of 324 employees that my family busi-
ness had happen to them, just 14 months. And yes, as the ranking
member said, this was prior to the current Administration. But
that should make it all the more important of why we need to in-
vestigate the fraud that is going on across America.
The American taxpayer does not care who is in the White House.
They want to know where their taxpayer dollars went, and did it
go to not any Americans at all, did it go to places like India and
elsewhere around the world, as we knew what went on?
These 789 fraudulent claims were of people that never worked
for me, ever, in 25 years of business had never worked for me. And
had we not done due diligence on every single claim, they would
have been paid out.
Now, I will tell you, when you look at this, we also had people
who had been continuing to work that got 1099s saying they were
not working. And yet we still do not want to have an adult con-
versation about what really went on with hundreds of billions of
dollars of fraud across this country in the UI program.
And so, when we talk about this, I really want to get to the idea
and the thought of why we can’t have and why we haven’t had—
I think some of you have mentioned this—that the closer we can
do this—and I know that one of you all mentioned that we should
have these conversations while we are doing the programs, and rec-
ognize that when you are really just passing out hundreds of bil-
lions of dollars, some would argue trillions of dollars, in the time
that has happened to us in the last 24 to 30 months, that we have
the propensity, and when it is fairly mandated, that we are going
to have fraud.
We should acknowledge that, and we should do our job—it
shouldn’t be political, it should be bipartisan—to sit down and talk
about where this fraud is that.
Now, I will tell you that we know that this unemployment insur-
ance system is deeply flawed. It has been around since 1935. Peo-
ple have figured out how to beat the system. It has happened. We
see it. This is a testament to it. Anybody is more than welcome to
look at it. You can’t take pictures, because it has Social Security
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
numbers on it, but you can take a look at them and see what we
are talking about.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00131 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
124
You know, when we look at the issue that we talked about with
workers not working, it is a fact that we know that we send out
hundreds of billions of dollars, incentivizing people beyond the time
when some states were going back to work, with no discernible dif-
ference in the outcome of the COVID pandemic. And yet people in
the State of Oklahoma were funding fraudulent claims in places
like California and New York—and no offense to my friends, but
that is where the largest amounts of—just from the sheer popu-
lation—the fraud occurred. And I have to answer to my friends and
my constituents back home in Oklahoma why it is okay that the
United States Congress cannot hold a hearing on fraud, and they
have to continue to have their taxpayer dollars being paid out in
fraudulent claims.
Mr. Turner, what motivation do states have to mitigate fraud,
when the burden of loss falls on the Federal Government?
Mr. TURNER. Well, first, I think there is an incentive. And part
of what the Department is trying to do is also offer up a policy of
getting a five percent return on when fraud is pointed out, and
have that fraud returned back. So, I think that is part of the incen-
tive I know the Department is trying to do, and we concur with
that, that has been part of their recommendations, because that
would help them pursue it a little more vigorously.
Mr. HERN. So, in following up to that, what has been done to
hold the most negligent states accountable, so that the hard-work-
ing people of states like Oklahoma aren’t paying the price?
Mr. Turner. Well, I think the Department has really reached out
to all states, in trying to hold them accountable. I mean, with our
work, we really don’t care what state someone is in. But when
there is fraud that occurs, and once it is identified, we work with
our law enforcement partners around the country to try to address
it.
Mr. HERN. Any reforms you see we should be doing so that we
don’t have this happen again?
Mr. TURNER. Well, here is the biggest problem, in my opinion.
The biggest problem is that, as the OIG, we make a lot of rec-
ommendations. And if you look back over the history, even 10 years
ago, some of the recommendations that came up this time are the
same problems that went unaddressed, whether that be our anti-
quated IT systems or whether it be lack of staff training. Those are
things that we have identified.
And with this new program that was out with PUA, there was
some states that—the officers were not trained properly or didn’t
know, and in some cases they waived that requirement because
there was a lack of understanding of how the process worked.
Mr. HERN. I would like to thank the witnesses, and I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
recognize the gentlelady from the State of California, Ms. Sánchez.
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good afternoon
to the gentlemen on our panel. I want to thank you for your testi-
mony today.
How to stop fraud is a very important issue, but so equally im-
portant is how to provide help to families during a once-in-a-cen-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
tury pandemic. Mr. Dodaro, did you receive unemployment insur-
ance at any point through the pandemic?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00132 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
125
Mr. DODARO. No, although I would——
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. Okay.
Mr. DODARO [continuing]. Note for the record someone filed a
claim in my name.
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. Okay, I am just asking if you did.
Mr. DODARO. And the GAO people——
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. The question was whether you did or not.
Mr. DODARO. Okay. [Laughter.]
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. Thank you.
Mr. DODARO. All right.
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. Thank you.
Mr. TURNER, did you receive unemployment insurance at any
point through the pandemic?
Mr. TURNER. No, I did not.
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. Thank you.
And, Mr. Horowitz, did you receive unemployment insurance at
any point during the pandemic?
Mr. HOROWITZ. No, I did not.
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. Thank you, gentlemen. I asked that question be-
cause it is increasingly apparent that this panel is missing a crit-
ical perspective: someone who actually did receive unemployment
insurance after losing their job. Republicans refused to hear from
working families who received this critical earned benefit when
they had nowhere else to turn.
Throughout 2020, my district office was inundated by constitu-
ents desperate for a helping hand. Many of them contacted my of-
fice as a last resort, saying they were about to forgo food, rent, or
their mortgage payments after losing their job. When my col-
leagues and I worked across the aisle to unanimously pass the
CARES Act, we got pandemic relief out the door as fast as possible.
Was it perfect? No. But we wanted and needed to help folks sur-
vive. And you know what? It worked. At the start of the pandemic,
one of my constituents reached out to my office. She was an older
woman who had just lost her job and was caring for her mother
in hospice. Her UI benefits were the only source of income that al-
lowed her to keep the heat on for her dying mother. Without this
Federal money, she, along with about five million more people,
would be living below the Federal poverty line.
This critical lifeline also disproportionately helped older Ameri-
cans, less educated workers, and Black and Brown workers.
The point is that Federal unemployment insurance during the
pandemic was overall a major success. Again, was it perfect? No.
But it kept families fed, it kept families housed, it allowed my con-
stituent and her mother to continue living in dignity.
We had to act fast. And no, we were not always surgical in what
we did, but we learned from our mistakes. But today my Repub-
lican colleagues want to highlight the program’s shortcomings, par-
ticularly fraud.
After the passage of CARES, the GAO made several anti-fraud
recommendations to the Trump Administration. President Trump
failed to implement any of these basic safeguards, placing Amer-
ican tax dollars at risk.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
My Democratic colleagues and I worked to address the criminal
activity, while recognizing the vulnerabilities in our state UI sys-
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00133 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
126
tems. The reality was that the agencies were chronically under-
funded and under-staffed. UI agency workers in my home state of
California went from working 8–hour days to 14–hour days, 7 days
a week. Democrats worked to close that resource gap.
Through the American Rescue Plan, we dedicated fraud-fighting
resources, while ensuring we were not harming critical benefits for
American workers. As a result, the Biden Administration has al-
ready prosecuted over 1,500 defendants who are accused of fraud.
Again, not a single Republican voted in favor of these fraud-fight-
ing provisions. Now they want to use the first hearing of this com-
mittee in power to talk about the problem that they initially re-
fused to solve.
We cannot discredit a critical earned benefit that 1 in 4 Amer-
ican workers legitimately needed in 2020. So, let’s not allow the ac-
tion of criminals to distract us from the fact that pandemic UI
saved millions of American families.
And before I close, I would ask unanimous consent, Mr. Chair-
man, to enter into the record a letter from the American Federa-
tion of County, State, and Municipal Employees, which represents
many of the dedicated state employees who worked overtime and
more to pay workers UI benefits that they needed during the pan-
demic. They were not allowed to be heard at today’s hearing, so I
hope that all of my colleagues will read their letter and listen to
the voices of the workers that they represent.
Chairman Smith. Without objection, so ordered.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00134 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
127
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 092 here 53008A.092
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00135 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
128
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 093 here 53008A.093
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00136 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
129
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 094 here 53008A.094
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00137 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
130
Ms. SÁNCHEZ. Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would also like
to thank the representative for highlighting why it is so necessary
that we have numerous future oversight hearings to look at how
we can make sure the integrity of the programs this committee has
jurisdiction over to continue to operate appropriately and fairly.
I would like to recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Fer-
guson.
Mr. FERGUSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would just
like to point out that this is, in fact, our second hearing that we
have had, not our first. And I think there were so many members
on the other side that did not attend the first hearing that maybe
it just slipped their mind. So, I will just point that out.
I also want to address the insinuations that we have not—you
know, that we are going after the individual citizen here. This—
listen, this was a huge program. We sent out money. This place,
D.C., decided to shut down the country, and we knew we had to
do something to help our fellow Americans. And we did. But then
we went back to the well again when it was unneeded. And when
we had an opportunity to put guardrails on it, we failed to do so.
Now, I just think that is where we need to recognize and we need
our colleagues on the other side to get serious about the oversight,
and quit coming after Republicans when it is not right. So I get
that off my chest.
Mr. TURNER, in this program I think you said $191 billion in
estimated fraud. Is that right?
Mr. TURNER. That is correct.
Mr. FERGUSON. All right. And you have recovered $105 million
of it?
Mr. TURNER. No, I didn’t say we had recovered 105. We actu-
ally, as far as the Labor OIG, we have $905 million that we have
not recovered, but monitored results.
Mr. FERGUSON. A hundred and five million? Is that—I am——
Mr. TURNER. No, 905 monitored results. And what that is, is
there may be court cases or admin or civil resolutions to some of
that, and some of it takes time to actually see that the funds——
Mr. FERGUSON. All right.
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. FERGUSON. So, of those cases, what do you—how much do
you anticipate recovering? What is a good estimate? Do you have
any idea of what that may be?
Mr. TURNER. Let me make sure I understand your question.
First of all, let me just clarify. It is $191 billion that we say is
improper payment. And there are—76 of that is what is expected
to be the fraud rate.
Mr. FERGUSON. Okay, 76 is——
Mr. Turner. Yes.
Mr. Ferguson. Okay, I just—I am trying to get—make sure I
have got the numbers right——
Mr. TURNER. All right.
Mr. FERGUSON [continuing]. On there. Okay. And you said you
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
have exhausted all of the funds that Congress allocated to you for
those efforts. Did you—did I hear you say that correctly?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00138 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
131
Mr. TURNER. No, you didn’t hear me say that, but we are on
the verge of doing that, the——
Mr. FERGUSON. On the——
Mr. TURNER [continuing]. $38-and-a-half million that the Labor
OIG was given for oversight. Yes, we are close to exhausting those
funds.
Mr. FERGUSON. Okay. So, then there was another $2 billion
that went for fraud prevention. Is that—am I right on that num-
ber, as well? And we——
Mr. TURNER. I think you may be talking—are you talking about
the $2 billion?
Mr. FERGUSON. Let me refer that—$2 billion?
Mr. DODARO. Yes, there was $2 billion that was given. It could
be used for fraud, it could be used for customer service, it could be
used for these Tiger Teams that went in. So, it was multiple uses
that——
Mr. FERGUSON. Okay.
Mr. DODARO [continuing]. That was that amount of money, yes.
Mr. FERGUSON. All right. It just seems like the amount of
money we are spending on that isn’t getting a really good return
on investment, overall, okay, if you—the way I look at it. All right.
So, we have got to be more efficient in that.
Now, we have talked an awful lot about fraud, okay? And as we
have said, all Republicans and Democrats up here, I think every-
body in America except the people committing the fraud are
against fraud. But there is a whole other part here, which is im-
proper payments, okay?
Now, we have been going after fraud, but we haven’t really
talked about the improper payments. And one of the things I would
like to hear very briefly from you today about is the improper pay-
ments. How did that happen? Why did it happen? And has anybody
been held accountable there?
We talk about holding the criminals who committed fraud there,
but what about the ineptness of a bureaucracy that is just simply
not doing its job, and issuing out hundreds of billions of dollars in
improper payments? Because, again, improper payments, as the
chairman said, a dollar that goes to the wrong spot is not a dollar
going to the right spot.
So, in some regard—I don’t know that we have got so much a Re-
publican or Democrat problem, I am—we may have a bureaucrat
problem, because it has gone on for two administrations.
So how does—how do the improper—what is the biggest problem
with improper payments? How are you going to fix it? And who is
going to be held accountable for that, Mr. Turner?
Mr. TURNER. So again, part of the—let me just clear what im-
proper payment is, so everybody will be on the same page. Your im-
proper payments are whenever a benefit is paid incorrectly. That
could be the amount, or it could be overpayment, underpayment,
or else it could be going to the wrong person. So that is the im-
proper payment. And fraud is a subset of improper payments. So,
I just want to make sure that I clear that up.
And as far as what we are doing, we are having our audit work
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
to take a look at that. I mean, we have had 11 audits that we have
completed throughout the pandemic. We have another 17 that are
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00139 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
132
ongoing, and we have 3 that are in the works. So, we are taking
a look at that, and that is how we are holding the Department ac-
countable.
Mr. HOROWITZ. Can I——
Mr. FERGUSON. I am out of time. But if the chairman will
grant Mr. Horowitz a——
Mr. HOROWITZ. Can I just——
Chairman SMITH. Proceed.
Mr. HOROWITZ. Briefly on that point, I think one of the things
that is important to keep in mind—I know Mr. Dodaro speaks
about this a lot—these are—we are only talking about 54 programs
being managed by 50 states, the District of Columbia, and 3 terri-
tories.
It is very important to include in this discussion the National As-
sociation of State Workforce Agencies and state auditors. They are
the ones on the front line, because states are doing it differently
across the country. Some are doing better than others. I think it
is very important, as we think about this program going forward,
how much control should be at the Federal level; how much should
be decentralized, as it largely is, to the states; and how do we fig-
ure out what states are doing better than others, and using that
model to increase the compliance rates and reduce improper pay-
ments across the country.
Mr. FERGUSON. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00140 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
133
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 095 here 53008A.095
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00141 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
134
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 096 here 53008A.096
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00142 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
135
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 097 here 53008A.097
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00143 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
136
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 098 here 53008A.098
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00144 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
137
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 099 here 53008A.099
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00145 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
138
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0100 here 53008A.100
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00146 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
139
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0101 here 53008A.101
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00147 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
140
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0102 here 53008A.102
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00148 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
141
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0103 here 53008A.103
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00149 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
142
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0104 here 53008A.104
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00150 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
143
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0105 here 53008A.105
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00151 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
144
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0106 here 53008A.106
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00152 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
145
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0107 here 53008A.107
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00153 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
146
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0108 here 53008A.108
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00154 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
147
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0109 here 53008A.109
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00155 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
148
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0110 here 53008A.110
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00156 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
149
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0111 here 53008A.111
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00157 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
150
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0112 here 53008A.112
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00158 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
151
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0113 here 53008A.113
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00159 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
152
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0114 here 53008A.114
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00160 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
153
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0115 here 53008A.115
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00161 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
154
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0116 here 53008A.116
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00162 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
155
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0117 here 53008A.117
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00163 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
156
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0118 here 53008A.118
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00164 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
157
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0119 here 53008A.119
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00165 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
158
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0120 here 53008A.120
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00166 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
159
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0121 here 53008A.121
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00167 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
160
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0122 here 53008A.122
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00168 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
161
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0123 here 53008A.123
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00169 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
162
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0124 here 53008A.124
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00170 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
163
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0125 here 53008A.125
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00171 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
164
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0126 here 53008A.126
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00172 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
165
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0127 here 53008A.127
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00173 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
166
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0128 here 53008A.128
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00174 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
167
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0129 here 53008A.129
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00175 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
168
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0130 here 53008A.130
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00176 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
169
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0131 here 53008A.131
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00177 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
170
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0132 here 53008A.132
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00178 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
171
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0133 here 53008A.133
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00179 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
172
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0134 here 53008A.134
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00180 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
173
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0135 here 53008A.135
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00181 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
174
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0136 here 53008A.136
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00182 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
175
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0137 here 53008A.137
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00183 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
176
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0138 here 53008A.138
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00184 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
177
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0139 here 53008A.139
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00185 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
178
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0140 here 53008A.140
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00186 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
179
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0141 here 53008A.141
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00187 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
180
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0142 here 53008A.142
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00188 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
181
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0143 here 53008A.143
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00189 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
182
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0144 here 53008A.144
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00190 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
183
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0145 here 53008A.145
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00191 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
184
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0146 here 53008A.146
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00192 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
185
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0147 here 53008A.147
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00193 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
186
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0148 here 53008A.148
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00194 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
187
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0149 here 53008A.149
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00195 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
188
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0150 here 53008A.150
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00196 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
189
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0151 here 53008A.151
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00197 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
190
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0152 here 53008A.152
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00198 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
191
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0153 here 53008A.153
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00199 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
192
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0154 here 53008A.154
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00200 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
193
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative, and I also appre-
ciate your attendance at both of our hearings this week, the first,
and today being the second.
Mr. FERGUSON. It was an honor and a pleasure, sir.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you. I would love to recognize the gen-
tleman from New York, Mr. Higgins.
Mr. HIGGINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
So, $5 trillion in pandemic relief was approved under two pro-
grams that included expanded unemployment and the Paycheck
Protection Program. Both of these programs were signed into law
by both Republican and Democratic Administrations.
So, Mr. Dodaro, you have been an employee of the Government
Accountability Office for almost 50 years.
Mr. DODARO. Yes.
Mr. HIGGINS. And you have been comptroller general for 13
years?
Mr. DODARO. I am working on that.
Mr. HIGGINS. Acting two years before that.
Mr. DODARO. That is correct.
Mr. HIGGINS. Okay.
Mr. DODARO. Next month it will be 15 years since I have been
in the job.
Mr. HIGGINS. And as the Comptroller General of the United
States and head of the U.S. Government Accountability Office, it
is a $5 trillion bureaucracy. Where is your focus, primarily, as head
of that agency?
Mr. DODARO. Yes, we focus on the entire full breadth of the
Federal Government’s responsibilities, you know, everything from
IRS to the Defense Department, all the agencies.
Now, we work closely with the inspector general community to
make sure that we are coordinating and making efficient use of our
resources.
Mr. HIGGINS. How much time over the past 36 months, on a
percentage basis, has been spent on waste, fraud, and abuse under
those two programs, Paycheck Protection and expanded unemploy-
ment?
Mr. DODARO. We have issued at least 10 reports on those indi-
vidual areas. We spent a lot of time on the Paycheck Protection
Program, the Economic Injury Disaster Loan program, both at
SBA. We have added that to our high-risk list that I mentioned
earlier, as well as the unemployment insurance——
Mr. HIGGINS. So, I presume, in your 50 years, you have never
seen anything of this magnitude as it relates to your office’s re-
sponsibility to promote the integrity in the expenditures of those
dollars.
Mr. DODARO. This has been the largest package in American
history, the rescue package, in American history.
I became acting comptroller general during the global financial
crisis, so I was around for the $700 billion to unfreeze the credit
markets, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act before that
Hurricane Katrina. This has been the largest one, ever.
Mr. HIGGINS. Okay. The unemployment insurance program—so
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
2020 it was $174 billion, 2021 was $115 billion, and 2022 was $24
billion. How bad was the fraud and abuse relative to the benefit?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00201 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
194
I mean, can you formulate a cost benefit analysis in your own
head about, you know, a lot of money went out, certainly fraud is
something that neither party is supportive of, and is very intent on
eliminating to the extent that it is possible, so——
Mr. DODARO. Yes. The way I look at it, from an oversight
standpoint, is that there was great benefit to all these programs,
but there could have been even greater benefit had we stopped the
improper payment and fraud area, particularly in the loan pro-
grams, because there is only a certain amount of money.
Mr. HIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. DODARO. So other people were denied the loans, they were
denied assistance.
Mr. HIGGINS. Right.
Mr. DODARO. In the unemployment area, everybody that was
legitimately there got paid—not everybody on a timely basis.
Mr. HIGGINS. Right.
Mr. DODARO. But—so that is the way I look at it.
Mr. HIGGINS. So nearly 50 years of service.
You know, the greatest way to reduce unemployment expendi-
tures at the Federal and state level would be a reduction in the
Federal unemployment rate, which is today 3.4 percent, which is
the lowest rate since 1969. That is 54 years. It is pretty incredible.
But you also spoke at the outset of the infrastructure that exists
or does not exist at the state level. It seems as though the Federal
Government needed to do something quickly. We were all in an
emergency mode, not a lot of time to structure a program, includ-
ing the infrastructure that was necessary to administer that pro-
gram in an efficient way, reducing to the fullest extent possible
fraud and abuse.
So, is it fair to say that the majority of the responsibility for the
fraud and abuse is associated with the antiquated systems
throughout the various states that we forced to administer this pro-
gram?
Mr. DODARO. The antiquated systems were certainly a big part
of the problem. But, as my colleague, Mr. Turner, noted, states had
been on notice for years about that program. I know New York
State, the deputy comptroller said that they had been on notice
since 2010.
Mr. HIGGINS. Right, but—I get that. But——
Mr. DODARO. Yes.
Mr. HIGGINS. They were on notice to do something about their
antiquated systems. This is like, you know, responsibility on
steroids. The unemployment rate reached nearly 14 percent.
Mr. DODARO. No, I understand. The states were overwhelmed.
That was for sure.
But I think it goes to the incentive question. You know, in nor-
mal times this is state money that is collected from taxes put on
employers in that state. And they knew that there was fraud. They
knew there were improper payments. So, in my opinion, looking
back on this from an oversight standpoint, they bear some respon-
sibility for not being better prepared.
Now, whether they would have been prepared to deal with the
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
overwhelming issue brought by the pandemic is an open question.
Mr. HIGGINS. I yield back. Thank you.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00202 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
195
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I recognize the
gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Wenstrup.
Mr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to
thank you all for being here today. I appreciate your time. I am
glad we are having this hearing to examine, really, the unprece-
dented levels of fraud in the pandemic unemployment programs.
You know, I often think about our job here, and in situations like
this I think of the song, America the Beautiful, where we are—we
ask God to help us mend our every flaw. And I think this is a per-
fect example of us trying to do that.
Mr. Turner, thank you for clarifying today, too, the difference be-
tween improper payments and fraud itself. And $191 billion, I be-
lieve, is what is reported out from DoL.
You know, in my home state of Ohio, it is estimated $1 billion
may have been paid in fraudulent unemployment claims from
March 2020 to June 2022. And the problem is so rampant that our
own governor, Mike DeWine, and his wife Fran, and our lieutenant
governor, John Husted, were notified that fraudulent claims had
been filed in their own names. It went that far. So, it is a wide-
spread problem. It harms Americans that it was designed to help.
And obviously, we don’t want that. That is a given.
So many of my Republican colleagues have been committed to
protecting Americans who have been victims of this fraud. In fact,
when this committee was in markup for the American Rescue Plan,
I offered an amendment to require the IRS to implement a hold
harmless process for those taxpayers whose 1099Gs are flagged as
unreported income, if those taxpayers believe they are victims of
identity theft or fraud, such that no penalties or interest would ac-
crue against them.
This amendment was objected to by my colleagues on the other
side of the aisle. At that time Ranking Member Neal promised
that, if I withdraw my amendment, we would work together to ad-
dress this issue. Unfortunately, it hadn’t ever happened.
And, Mr. Chairman, with your consent, I would like to submit a
copy of my amendment on that for the record.
Mr. KELLY [presiding]. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00203 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
196
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0155 here 53008A.155
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00204 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
197
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0156 here 53008A.156
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00205 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
198
Mr. WENSTRUP. And so, I will say that, despite not really in-
vestigating the root cause of the frauds during the pandemic, we
saw the Department of Labor has distributed $2 billion in the
American Rescue Plan to detect and prevent fraud, promote equi-
table access, and ensure the timely payment of benefits with re-
spect to unemployment compensation programs. The Department of
Labor has yet to provide a full accounting of how this funding has
been used.
I think we need to circle our wagons there, and the only avail-
able information that I have seen shows DoL has only used 18 per-
cent of those funds for fraud identification and recovery. So, Mr.
Turner, do you have any data currently on how many taxpayers
had their identity stolen to claim IU [sic] benefits fraudulently?
Is there any tracking the IRS does to aggregate information from
the Form 1099G about the amount of taxable unemployment bene-
fits that were flagged by states or individuals as fraudulent?
I think it is an important piece of the puzzle, so if you could help
me there I would appreciate it.
Mr. TURNER. Yes, we are—this is still early in the stage. We
are still gathering the data on that.
Mr. WENSTRUP. Okay.
Mr. TURNER. But it is part of our plan. We hoped to do that
this year, but because of constraints we have pushed it off to next
year. But we do have plans to do so.
Mr. WENSTRUP. I appreciate that. As soon as we can, that
would be helpful information for us.
The State of Ohio has been able to recover more than $390 mil-
lion in unemployment benefits. And despite the work being done by
the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services, and our partici-
pation in the National Association of State Workforce Agencies,
Ohio is not receiving any portion of the funding they have recov-
ered, the majority of which are pandemic unemployment assistance
and Federal pandemic unemployment compensation funds.
So, they are really trying to do their work. You know, states like
Ohio are making investments in fraud recovery and prevention ef-
forts as they continue to recover these fraudulent payments. I
think we should be working to incentivize their investments in
these recovery efforts.
Mr. Turner, what thoughts do you have on policy recommenda-
tions that would incentivize states to pursue the fund recovery
work?
And you may have mentioned this earlier, and I apologize if I am
asking a question again.
Mr. TURNER. Not a problem. That is one of the recommenda-
tions that the Department of Labor have. And we concur with that
recommendation. We think anything that would incentivize and
help people more—be more interested in recovering those funds is
a great move.
Mr. WENSTRUP. What would you suggest that incentive look
like?
Mr. TURNER. Well, five percent, I think, is what they are pro-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
posing.
Mr. WENSTRUP. Okay.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00206 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
199
Mr. TURNER. And we would agree with that. The only caveat
that we would add on that is that it be returned back to the UI
program, the administration of it.
Mr. WENSTRUP. Okay, thank you.
Mr. Chairman, with your consent I would like to submit a letter
from Ohio Governor DeWine to the Secretary of Labor, Martin
Walsh, for the record.
Chairman SMITH [presiding]. With no objection.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00207 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
200
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0157 here 53008A.157
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00208 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
201
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0158 here 53008A.158
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00209 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
202
Mr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
recognize the gentlelady from the State of Alabama, Ms. Sewell.
Ms. SEWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
To be clear, none of us want waste, fraud and abuse in any gov-
ernment program. We all were sent here to be good stewards of
taxpayers’ money.
I also want to just say that the facts are that we dealt with a
once-in-a-generation pandemic, and that there were lots of Ameri-
cans, vulnerable Americans, who were left more vulnerable because
of this pandemic. In my state of Alabama alone, 532,000 Alabam-
ians were spared from economic disaster because of the work done
by this committee and the House of Representatives in the early
months of COVID–19.
The American Rescue Plan provided many states’ unemployment
offices the necessary resources to ensure that funds got out the
door in a timely fashion to those facing the most dire economic and
health scenarios imaginable at no fault of their own.
I will never forget the sight, the sight of family after family lin-
ing up in cars to local charities and to churches and to pantries to
have food loaded into their cars. And do you know why I will never
forget it? Because I was bagging and loading lots of those groceries
each and every time I was at home. These people were people who,
two weeks ago, earlier, when the pandemic started, had jobs and
no fear of losing the roof over their heads. And then, all of a sud-
den, they had friends and neighbors turning to them, offering them
assistance to just get by.
I didn’t want my families to just get by. I wanted them to get
back on their feet. The actions taken by the Ways and Means Com-
mittee in a matter of weeks ensured that millions of my constitu-
ents not only got by, but were able to pay their mortgage, make
their mortgage payments, as well as to fill their kitchen cabinets.
While facing a crisis like this none of us have experienced, we
do know that fraud did occur. But as all of you have said over the
course of the last few hours, this was not something that was just
sprung upon us.
As you said, Mr. Dodaro, as comptroller, you understand that
we—that the states were not prepared. You said that. And I can
tell you, from firsthand experience in the state that I represent,
Alabama was not prepared.
But because we gave them resources in the CARES Act and the
American Rescue Plan, they got prepared. And as they got pre-
pared, it took time. They were, you know, learning how to ride the
bicycle as the bicycle was going down the road, and there were
problems with it.
But I also know that, Mr. Chairman, it is not fair to talk about
the system without actually having on this panel workers who
worked in these state agencies to be able to talk in earnest about
what went on in those state agencies.
I also note that we did give money. We gave money back when
this pandemic first got started. And the Trump Administration did
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
not put together an anti-fraud program that would help prevent
this.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00210 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
203
Now, I know that fraud will happen in any program, but I guess
my question to you is what can we do to make sure that states are
more prepared, and actually assist in finding those fraudsters that
are out there?
I know that so many of the folks that work in these departments
of labor in the states are good, earnest people who are trying to do
their job. They just need more resources, more people in order to
do that, and better systems. So, what can we do, as a prophylactic
measure, to really help address the lack of preparedness in state
agencies?
Mr. DODARO. The first thing I would suggest is that—I men-
tioned earlier the Fraud Reduction and Data Analytics Act that
Congress passed in 2016. That only applies to Federal agencies, it
doesn’t apply to the state agencies. So I think, if you would apply
it to the state agencies and encourage and incentivize them to im-
plement a comprehensive anti-fraud strategy on a continual basis,
which would be effective throughout the whole period of time, that
would be the number-one thing.
The number-two thing is, if in future emergencies there are
measures, if they have that in place, there should be not as much
of a need or a need at all for Congress to allow self-certifications.
That, I think, helped tie the hands of the states a bit, because they
weren’t allowed to ask for documentation and support.
So those two things would allow them to be prepared—manage
the normal program much better, and be prepared for emergencies.
Ms. SEWELL. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that we really
should have had state administrators on this panel, as well as
workers who worked in this area, that that would have given us
a more broader view about what we can all do to help prevent
fraud in the future.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. I thank the representative. Like I said ear-
lier, this is just the first of many oversight hearings. The reason
why we are doing it this way is because we didn’t have any in the
prior two congresses, and so we are glad that we are at least start-
ing.
I would love to recognize the gentleman from the State of Illinois,
Mr. LaHood.
Mr. LAHOOD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the
witnesses for your valuable testimony and service here today. Mr.
Chairman, I want to thank you for holding this hearing and mak-
ing this a top priority for our new majority. It is so vital that we
do this.
And I want to—I know it has been referenced, but it has been
frustrating that this is the first hearing we are having on this. As
everybody knows, COVID began, you know, in the spring of 2020.
And obviously, we have been concerned about fraud in this space
for the last two years. But this is the first hearing we are having.
And it is not for a lack of trying.
I just want to reference two letters that at the time our Repub-
lican leader, Mr. Brady, sent to this committee asking for a hear-
ing. March 12th, 2021, we write to the chairman requesting an im-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
mediate—schedule an oversight hearing on the Ways and Means
Committee to investigate reports and—of reports of fraud in unem-
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00211 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
204
ployment insurance programs enacted through COVID pandemic.
No response to that at all.
So, with no response, we sent another letter 10 months later,
February 22nd, 2020, again, at the time, to the chairperson from
Ranking Member Brady—Ms. Walorski and Tom Rice and Mr.
Kelly—again, asking to investigate the size, scope, and severity of
criminal fraud in pandemic unemployment insurance. No response,
unfortunately.
I would like to submit both these—both of these letters for the
record, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman SMITH. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00212 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
205
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0159 here 53008A.159
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00213 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
206
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0160 here 53008A.160
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00214 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
207
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0161 here 53008A.161
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00215 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
208
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0162 here 53008A.162
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00216 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
209
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0163 here 53008A.163
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00217 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
210
Mr. LAHOOD. Couple that with what Dr. Wenstrup just said, we
offered an amendment to get to the bottom of this on unemploy-
ment insurance. Nothing.
So here we are today, having this hearing today. And so, again,
vitally important that we use our responsibility with oversight to
have some accountability in this program.
Mr. Horowitz, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions here. As
we have heard here today, the more time passes, the harder it is
to get these dollars back. And so, it is high time that someone start
asking questions and look into how do we claw back billions of dol-
lars.
My question specifically for you: obviously, you are working in
your capacity across all of government, uncovering these fraud
schemes and getting real results in terms of suggestions for crimi-
nal prosecutions and, hopefully, convictions and some jail sentences
for those involved, which will hopefully send a deterrent message.
A bit of a hypothetical question, but if you had $2 billion today,
how would you use those funds to ramp up efforts to recover the
funds and hold wrongdoers accountable?
Mr. HOROWITZ. Well, first off, that would be magnitudes great-
er than we have gotten in the past for any of the IGs. And—but
what we would do is a couple of things: increase our agents, the
number of law enforcement and other auditors and analytics capac-
ity that we have, so we can find the fraud, pursue the fraud; I
would actually also then provide analysts to the various task forces
like we are doing already—the National Pandemic Unemployment
Insurance Task Force—so that we can be a force multiplier in that
regard; and then finally, very importantly, there is going to need
to be more prosecutors, both at the Federal level and at the local
level, to deal with these cases. We can investigate them, but we
have got to hand them off to somebody who will actually go to a
courtroom and pursue the prosecutions.
Mr. LAHOOD. And is there an example of a state that has been
very proactive in terms of hiring state prosecutors to do that?
Mr. HOROWITZ. There have been a number of states, and I
wouldn’t want to leave one out. We are working with a lot of states.
We have had great relationships with a variety of states who are
dealing with these issues.
It is just going to grow, though, exponentially as we uncover
more and more fraud, and as the Labor IG, you know, finds more
and more fraud, and as we find the overseas fraud, right? That is
the hardest to find, and is going to take us the most amount of
time to get to.
Mr. LAHOOD. In your testimony, Mr. Horowitz, you provided a
recommendation that Congress should amend the Program Fraud
Civil Remedies Act——
Mr. HOROWITZ. Correct.
Mr. LAHOOD [continuing]. To raise the jurisdictional limit for
administrative recoveries of smaller claims.
Mr. HOROWITZ. Right.
Mr. LAHOOD. What is the threshold we are using now, and how
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
does it compare to the amounts we are talking about in fraud from
UI programs?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00218 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
211
Mr. HOROWITZ. So, the threshold right now is $150,000. It pro-
vides the Program Fraud Civil Remedies Act that we can use the
civil process in it through administrative means, which means we
don’t have to tie up the Federal courts or Federal prosecutors for
lower-dollar fraud claims. We want to increase that to $1 million,
because we have seen the extraordinary number of payments that
went out that were below that million-dollar amount.
And the reality is that, given the limitations on resources at the
U.S. attorneys’ offices and for prosecutors around the country at
the state and local level, we are going to have challenges getting
them to take smaller fraud cases. We, at a minimum, want to be
able to use the civil processes to collect the money back for the tax-
payers. And so that is why that is so crucial.
We have had, by the way, bipartisan support for it. It just hasn’t
made its way through Congress.
Mr. LAHOOD. Great, thank you. I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentleman, and recognize
the gentlelady from Washington State, DelBene.
Ms. DELBENE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank
the witnesses for being here today and for sharing your testimony
with the committee.
However, an important voice is missing from this conversation,
and that is the voice of the millions of people and the families for
whom the expanded unemployment insurance during the pandemic
was a lifeline.
I we think back to 2020, and the fear and the uncertainty that
our country was facing as that first case of COVID was reported
in my district in the State of Washington, we saw many workers
laid off, no longer receiving a paycheck. Some had to find childcare
quickly, because their kids were taking classes at home. Small
business owners were wondering how they could keep their busi-
nesses afloat.
Overnight, our world shut down. Our nation lost nearly 22 mil-
lion jobs at the outset of the pandemic. And Congress needed to
act. And we needed to act quickly to ensure that families kept food
on their tables and roofs over their heads. And that is exactly what
we did.
To address the dramatic level of job loss and hardship caused by
the pandemic, Congress passed bipartisan legislation which tempo-
rarily increased state unemployment insurance benefits by $600 a
week, and this ensured that families had the money they needed
to stay afloat. We also created temporary benefits to self-employed
workers who were not covered by state UI programs to ensure that
these people were not left without support. These changes and in-
creased funds had a real impact for the families and the workers
in our communities.
I wanted to share the story of a Washington family. Lori, who
works for an education non-profit, and her husband work for music
venues. Her husband was undergoing cancer treatment, and their
family was already living paycheck to paycheck. When the pan-
demic hit, Lori’s husband was laid off due to the live entertainment
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
industry shutting down. The extra $600 in unemployment insur-
ance was critical to ensure that Lori’s family was able to pay their
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00219 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
212
mortgage, pay medical bills, car payments, and meet the basic
needs of their teenage daughter.
Critical programs like the expanded unemployment insurance
and the Paycheck Protection Program were essential to our record-
breaking economic recovery. Because of the actions that Congress
took then, the American job market has exceeded pre-pandemic lev-
els, and we now have historic unemployment. Incredible impact.
So, thank you for this hearing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield
back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
recognize the gentleman from Kansas, Mr. Estes.
Mr. ESTES. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I am so glad
we are having this hearing today on this very important topic.
You know, the facts are that, as representatives, we have a re-
sponsibility to ensure taxpayer dollars are used efficiently and ef-
fectively. And the evidence is apparent there has been nearly un-
checked unemployment fraud.
I want to be clear. In the early uncertain days of the pandemic,
there were good reasons to help countless Americans who faced
those unprecedented economic challenges through no fault of their
own. But we are nearly three years past the first pandemic-related
legislation, and my colleagues on the left have chosen to complete
ignore the rampant fraud that has cost taxpayers an untold
amount. The estimates in some points—in some outlets have ar-
ranged up to as high as 300 to $400 billion.
In addition to the money lost, there is evidence of gross incom-
petence, including from the governor’s department of labor in my
home state of Kansas that left many without assistance who des-
perately needed it. Despite unemployment being a function man-
aged by the state, my office in Wichita received more than 1,000
calls from constituents who were negatively impacted by Kansas’s
unemployment system.
I have many stories of people impacted. For more than half a
year, one constituent waited while her legitimate claim mysteri-
ously ended up in the fraud department. Despite repeated calls and
attempts to resolve the issue, nobody in the Kansas department of
labor could help her.
Others reached out to let us know that they themselves have
been victims of fraud. Several received a notification in the fall of
2020 that someone had filed claims for unemployment under their
name, and received a 1099 in 2021, claiming that they owed taxes
on the benefits someone else had received.
Today we still hear from Kansans who were victims of fraud, or
have yet to receive benefits they deserve. These are just a few of
the cases, but they point to a real problem in Kansas and across
the country: taxpayers lost out to fraudsters who used the pan-
demic, massive amounts of Federal funds, and weak state leader-
ship to game the system.
In May of 2021, Ways and Means Republicans held a roundtable
on this subject, and I invited State Representative Sean Tarwater
to testify. As the chair of the Kansas House of Commerce, Labor,
and Economic Development Committee, he saw firsthand the issue
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
of fraud and unemployment. In his testimony he said, ‘‘We have
documented over 40 times the Kansas Department of Labor was
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00220 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
213
notified, directed, and informed about massive concerns regarding
unemployment benefit frauds.’’
He also said that when the Kansas Department of Labor—when
asked about the fraud, their response was they are not worried
about the fraud because the ‘‘big money’’ was in the Federal funds,
and it was mostly the Federal programs that were being targeted,
and that they would always add that they were not held respon-
sible for those funds so that it was not a priority.
Mr. Chair, I would like to submit to the record two audits con-
ducted by the Kansas Legislative Division of Post-Audit that indi-
cated roughly $700 million in potentially fraudulent payments were
made, with half coming from state funds and half coming from Fed-
eral, or about $344 million.
Chairman SMITH. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00221 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
214
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0164 here 53008A.164
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00222 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
215
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0165 here 53008A.165
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00223 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
216
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0166 here 53008A.166
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00224 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
217
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0167 here 53008A.167
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00225 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
218
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0168 here 53008A.168
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00226 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
219
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0169 here 53008A.169
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00227 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
220
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0170 here 53008A.170
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00228 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
221
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0171 here 53008A.171
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00229 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
222
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0172 here 53008A.172
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00230 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
223
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0173 here 53008A.173
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00231 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
224
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0174 here 53008A.174
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00232 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
225
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0175 here 53008A.175
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00233 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
226
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0176 here 53008A.176
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00234 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
227
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0177 here 53008A.177
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00235 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
228
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0178 here 53008A.178
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00236 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
229
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0179 here 53008A.179
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00237 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
230
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0180 here 53008A.180
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00238 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
231
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0181 here 53008A.181
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00239 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
232
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0182 here 53008A.182
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00240 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
233
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0183 here 53008A.183
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00241 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
234
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0184 here 53008A.184
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00242 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
235
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0185 here 53008A.185
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00243 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
236
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0186 here 53008A.186
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00244 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
237
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0187 here 53008A.187
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00245 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
238
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0188 here 53008A.188
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00246 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
239
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0189 here 53008A.189
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00247 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
240
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0190 here 53008A.190
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00248 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
241
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0191 here 53008A.191
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00249 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
242
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0192 here 53008A.192
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00250 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
243
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0193 here 53008A.193
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00251 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
244
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0194 here 53008A.194
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00252 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
245
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0195 here 53008A.195
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00253 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
246
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0196 here 53008A.196
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00254 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
247
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0197 here 53008A.197
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00255 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
248
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0198 here 53008A.198
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00256 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
249
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0199 here 53008A.199
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00257 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
250
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0200 here 53008A.200
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00258 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
251
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0201 here 53008A.201
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00259 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
252
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0202 here 53008A.202
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00260 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
253
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0203 here 53008A.203
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00261 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
254
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0204 here 53008A.204
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00262 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
255
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0205 here 53008A.205
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00263 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
256
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0206 here 53008A.206
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00264 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
257
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0207 here 53008A.207
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00265 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
258
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0208 here 53008A.208
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00266 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
259
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0209 here 53008A.209
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00267 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
260
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0210 here 53008A.210
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00268 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
261
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0211 here 53008A.211
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00269 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
262
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0212 here 53008A.212
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00270 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
263
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0213 here 53008A.213
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00271 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
264
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0214 here 53008A.214
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00272 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
265
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0215 here 53008A.215
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00273 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
266
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0216 here 53008A.216
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00274 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
267
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0217 here 53008A.217
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00275 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
268
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0218 here 53008A.218
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00276 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
269
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0219 here 53008A.219
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00277 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
270
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0220 here 53008A.220
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00278 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
271
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0221 here 53008A.221
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00279 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
272
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0222 here 53008A.222
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00280 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
273
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0223 here 53008A.223
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00281 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
274
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0224 here 53008A.224
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00282 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
275
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0225 here 53008A.225
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00283 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
276
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0226 here 53008A.226
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00284 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
277
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0227 here 53008A.227
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00285 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
278
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0228 here 53008A.228
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00286 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
279
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0229 here 53008A.229
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00287 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
280
Mr. ESTES. Despite the evidence, there is not an incentive for
states to recover those unemployment frauds, and hard-working
Kansas taxpayers are left with the bill.
Mr. Horowitz, what processes are in place for states to help re-
coup funds lost to UI fraud, both state and Federal funding?
Mr. HOROWITZ. So, I think one of the key parts of that is work-
ing closely with IGs, local/state law enforcement, and their state’s
attorneys general to make sure there are processes by which the
taxpayers can get the money back. That is one of the things we are
trying to do, is work closely and—have focused on with state audi-
tors.
In fact, we have a—we created the first-ever state auditor in resi-
dence program. So, we have two Tennessee state auditors working
with the PRAC to help us, as well as the former California state
auditor, so we can develop those relationships and work more close-
ly with the states.
Mr. ESTES. So how are you looking at or expecting states to re-
cover funds that may have been a result of international crime?
And what state or Federal jurisdiction is there, and what has
been currently done on that front?
Mr. HOROWITZ. So, the SWA is the state workforce agencies.
They are not the law enforcement arm of this, of course.
So, the key is working with local law enforcement, Federal law
enforcement. We are working with the Secret Service, the FBI,
other Federal law enforcement agencies, and trying to develop
those partnerships, because that is the key to the success of moving
forward. There has to be the interest not only in making sure the
money gets out, which is obviously important, to the right people,
but then making sure, when it doesn’t get to the right people, that
there is the recovery.
Mr. ESTES. Right. Well, thank you.
And I want to thank all of our witnesses for the work that you
are doing on behalf of the American taxpayers, and helping make
sure that we get money in the right hands and that the taxpayers
are protected.
I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the representative, and now
I will recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Smucker,
for five minutes.
Mr. SMUCKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for hold-
ing this hearing.
Oversight is an important role of this committee of Congress.
And when we know that there is at least 60 billion—the lowest
number—and perhaps hundreds of billions of dollars that were
fraudulently given to others than those who deserved it, we should
be evaluating that and looking at it, and seeing whether the Ad-
ministration did all they could to prevent that, and see whether
this committee under Democrat leadership abdicated their respon-
sibility to provide that oversight.
I would like to use my time to respond to a few of the comments
made by Democrats, starting with the ranking member, who I have
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
a great deal of respect for. He opened with a fiery speech that
conflated the idea that looking at fraud was the same as trying to
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00288 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
281
prevent benefits from going to individuals who really needed a life-
line. And I say it is quite the opposite.
And in fact, if—another thing we heard was that there is a voice
missing here, voices of families who benefited from those dollars.
I think they would be appalled to know that as much, potentially,
as for every dollar that they received in a lifeline went to someone
that didn’t receive it, and will be paid either by them or by their
kids and their grandkids, which is most likely, they would be ap-
palled at that. And I think it would be important to have their
input on that.
I thought, based on the ranking member’s comment, that he per-
haps misunderstood the purpose of this hearing in conflating those
two messages. And then, as I listened further to other Democrat
comments, I realized it was more than that. They were literally
trying to say that Republicans, by holding a hearing of this sort,
did not support helping individuals. And again, that is just not
true.
And they also said that we didn’t vote for $2 billion worth of
fraud prevention. And I would like to remind Democrats that that
was included in a bill of about $1,900 billion that we felt would do
more harm than good. We were worried about the inflationary im-
pact of that bill that would harm the American people far more
than the handouts that have been provided.
And by the way, we heard that from individuals, everyday Amer-
icans in our first hearing, where individuals said that those infla-
tionary pressures, they have now are hurting their ability to pro-
vide for their families, and are threatening their ability to be able
to keep their businesses open.
And I know this has been mentioned before, but I will say it, as
well, to the ranking member and the rest of the Democrats here.
I thought it was very unfortunate that Democrats were unwilling
to leave the bubble of Washington, D.C. and hear from real Amer-
ican people the impacts of our policies. And I appreciated that the
chairman put together a field hearing, and I know we are doing
more, and I hope that Democrats will reconsider, because I think
it was a very, very valuable hearing. And I think it would be worth
all of us hearing that.
By the way, we were right in the impacts of that $1.9 trillion
ARPA. We had all first voted for the CARES Act. We thought it
was—we felt was absolutely important. But it led to the highest in-
flation rate in 40 years. We were right.
And if you want to talk about Biden’s economic policies, I read
a newsletter this morning that I thought nailed it pretty well. You
know, Biden came in and inherited an economy that was growing
at 6.5 percent, and an inflation rate of 1.5 percent. And somehow,
he was, in two years, successful at completely inverting those num-
bers. And we had 6.5 percent inflation and an economy that is
barely growing.
One additional point, and this goes back to something the rank-
ing member said, as well. He proposed the idea that people did not
respond—almost 40 percent of Pennsylvanians received more on
unemployment than they could have earned going back to work.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
And he believed that people did not respond to that by staying
home. And that, I think, doesn’t recognize the very nature—the
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00289 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
282
very characteristic of human nature: We all tend to do what is
right for ourselves, we look out for our best interests.
And one of the arguments that we had, as Republicans, against
ARPA is that we put people in this terrible position of needing to
decide that, if they went back to work, they would be less able to
provide for their families. It is an awful position to put people in,
and we don’t fault anyone for taking available—or for taking ad-
vantage of what was available to them. But it was a bad decision
in our part. We could have done far better, as we wanted to at that
time, by incentivizing people to go back to work.
One of the amendments that we had included on that bill—they
were all rejected, but one was to provide a $1,500 bonus for people
to go back to work. Think how that would have changed where we
are right now.
We heard directly at that hearing of individuals, of owners of
businesses who talked directly to employees and said we won’t
come back to work because we would lose this benefit or that ben-
efit. And I have talked to hundreds of employers who were in the
same position. It was a badly-guided decision that had—that has
harmed American people far more than the government handouts
that were included with it.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry I am over time.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
recognize the gentlelady from the State of California, Ms. Chu.
Ms. CHU. I would like to start by reminding my colleagues that
the Pandemic Unemployment Assistance program was authorized
by the CARES Act and extended by the Consolidated Appropria-
tions Act of 2021, both in overwhelmingly bipartisan votes.
Additionally, Ways and Means Democrats secured funding to
fight fraud and to recover taxpayer dollars in the American Rescue
Plan, which, actually, is the very reason why we have the testi-
mony from the witnesses before us today.
The pandemic was an unprecedented disruption of our economy,
which is why Democrats and Republicans acted together to expand
unemployment benefits as quickly as possible to assist American
families who, through no fault of their own, suddenly found them-
selves without a way to provide for their families’ basic needs. This
was a success, which is why the U.S. has had a stronger economic
recovery than any of our peers.
And we learned many lessons along the way, including that there
were gaps in the distribution of these benefits for individuals such
as my constituent, Damian, a father of two who is self-employed
and also works part-time as an ambulance driver to make ends
meet. Damian didn’t qualify for Pandemic Unemployment Assist-
ance, even though his primary employment was self-employment,
because he had a small amount of wage income that qualified him
for regular UI. So, I was proud to champion the inclusion of bene-
fits for mixed earners like Damian in the bipartisan 2021 Consoli-
dated Appropriations Act.
Likewise, I have heard from many individuals that Federal pan-
demic unemployment was a lifeline for providing for basic neces-
sities like food and lifesaving medications. That includes Gretchen
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
from Altadena, California, who has been in the film and television
industry for the last 30 years and is a cancer survivor whose med-
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00290 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
283
ical coverage is predicated on the number of hours worked. And
Mary from Pasadena, a nursery schoolteacher whose employers’
doors closed and had to file for unemployment for the first time in
her 26 year career. And May, the primary breadwinner for her
family living in Sierra Madre, trying to stay afloat while distance
learning with her three kids.
The swift action of Congress mitigated the hardship that jobless
workers and their families suffered and was essential in stabilizing
an economy that lost a staggering 22 million jobs in just 2 months
in early 2020.
We know that there are lessons to be learned from these efforts
that can strengthen and sustain the UI system for future emer-
gencies, and I hope that it is the goal of this hearing that we do
not neglect our duties to protect our workers in the midst of a glob-
al pandemic.
So, Mr. Dodaro, although this is not mentioned in today’s testi-
mony, GAO also conducted discussion groups with recipients of UI
benefits. Is that correct?
Mr. DODARO. Yes.
Ms. CHU. Well, tell me. What are some of the things they said
in terms of what they spent their benefit on?
And did they talk about how the benefits affected their housing
and their credit?
Mr. DODARO. We conducted these discussion groups in six
states. We did 2 in each state for 12 discussion groups. And people
told us they spent their funds on rent, utilities, food, and health
care, and other essential activities during that period of time. So,
it helped sustain them through that period of time.
They also had a lot to say about the difficulty in getting the ben-
efits in the first place, and we included that in our report, as well.
Ms. CHU. And how did this affect their housing and their credit?
Mr. DODARO. Well, it helped them to maintain, you know, pay-
ing their bills, so I would assume that added a, you know, a posi-
tive—or at least didn’t have a negative effect on their credit.
Ms. CHU. And what do the dozens of high-quality research stud-
ies GAO reviewed say about the effect that providing UI benefits
during this pandemic and in past recessions had on economic sta-
bility?
Mr. DODARO. We reviewed 30 empirical studies that were done,
and those studies indicated that it helped support the—stabilized
the economy during that period of time, it helped prevent the situa-
tion from getting worse, and so it had a, you know, positive effect.
Ms. CHU. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Murphy.
Mr. MURPHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate you call-
ing the hearing today.
I can’t help but think we have gotten sidetracked a little bit. The
purpose of this hearing is not to hear stories that, obviously, we all,
every single person in this chamber, can tell us about how impor-
tant these funds were. I mean, my God, everybody can talk about
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
how we desperately needed this program. We are here to talk about
the fact that fraud occurred.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00291 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
284
Let me just redirect, pull us all back, and let’s just direct in the
right direction, and get the facts. I would just like to correct a few
things, I guess.
The President last night said he has added 12 million jobs, the
greatest in history. Well, he got rid of 10 million jobs because of
what we did during the pandemic. It is just actually recapturing
them. So, let’s get to the facts. Let’s be true.
And we talk about the unemployment rate. Yes, it is low. But our
workforce participation rate now is lower than it was in January
2020 to the tune where more than two-and-a-half million people
are not working today who were working in January of 2020, hence
the need for workers everywhere.
That doesn’t even add in the 18 million individuals who are now
receiving Medicaid benefits, who, because President Biden, who has
said the pandemic was over, continues the public health emergency
where no state is allowed to audit its Medicaid rolls. So that is over
20 million people that we are talking about that should be back in
the workforce, and actually contributing to Social Security, contrib-
uting to Medicare. We would love to get those people back.
And so, we are here today to talk about fraud. Fraud. And sadly
enough, fraud occurs. It is not a Republican problem. It is not a
Democrat problem. It is an American problem. It is the fact that
when free money—when money flows freely, people take advantage
of it. Period, point blank.
In North Carolina, a citizen from the Republic of India alleged
that they obtained $40,000 in pandemic unemployment insurance
for North Carolina residents, which—by the way, anybody who is
in the resident—is in the embassy of India, by the way, in the Dis-
trict of Columbia, can vote, just as an aside to my Democratic
friends. That we are going to hopefully stop.
Second, a Federal grand jury in Greenville, North Carolina,
where I lived, indicted three individuals for conspiring to commit
wire and mail fraud for a heroin and fentanyl distribution ring in
eastern North Carolina. Again, fraud occurs when money flows
freely. It is not just balloons for everybody. It is actual real things
that happen.
Lastly, a woman in Charlotte was—pleaded guilty of $1 million
in unemployment insurance fraud by defrauding the State of Ari-
zona.
These are real things, and I commend you guys for the work that
you have done. I attack us for not actually attacking this earlier—
$350 million in North Carolina.
And so we all know this is what we are talking about. We are
not here to tell stories of how we helped it. We did. We could all
tell those stories, because it was absolutely needed.
I just find it interesting that my colleagues across the aisle are
happy to say that President Trump’s Administration didn’t put in
fraud committee, while they blame him for everything else, but
then take credit for all the work that Biden did. So, I just—I think
that is kind of interesting.
So let me just ask a few questions as it is. Mr. Dodaro, can I
just—what percentage of your workforce is back to work?
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Mr. DODARO. Everyone.
Mr. MURPHY. Everybody is back to work?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00292 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
285
Mr. DODARO. Well, we were never not out of work.
Mr. MURPHY. Okay.
Mr. DODARO. We have been working all the time.
Mr. MURPHY. Excellent, excellent. I am really glad to hear this.
The—and I ask this to Mr. Turner, and also again to Mr. Dodaro:
Does the GAO and the Department of Labor know to the extent in
which international cyber crime rings and foreign actors were in-
volved in targeting state systems at all?
Do we have any information about what happened against—with
cyber crime, international figures, for fraud for this?
Mr. DODARO. I think that question could best be answered by
Mr. Horowitz and Mr. Turner.
Mr. MURPHY. Okay, please do.
Mr. TURNER. Yes. It is equally spread. Well, equally may be the
wrong word, but it spread throughout—on the international side,
as well as domestic.
Mr. HOROWITZ. Yes, we have seen fraud occurring overseas. Se-
cret Service has testified about this, about breaking up various
rings in Nigeria, Russia, China, for example.
Mr. MURPHY. Right. And I think it is—and I will just kind of
end with this, because I don’t want to beat a dead horse. We all
know that this fraud occurred, and we all know that we have not
done our job, as Members of Congress, in providing oversight.
You know, it just seems to be an action that one side of this body
just is happy to flow the funds. And yes, our American people need
it. But for those of us who have actually run businesses, there has
to be accountability as to where our money goes. This isn’t our
money. This is the taxpayers’ money. And if we don’t know where
it goes and where it should not be going, then we are out of busi-
ness.
And this Congress—and, my God, you know, look at our debt,
which some people don’t believe exists—we would be out of busi-
ness, absolutely, if we did not commit to making sure that our
money is well spent, and that criminals, criminals, are put back.
And let me just ask a real quick question, if you 00 just two sec-
onds, if you will, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Horowitz, can you expand on the suggestion to increase the
penalties for these individuals?
Mr. HOROWITZ. Yes. So, what we have actually asked for is in-
creasing the statute of limitations from 5 years to 10 years. The
challenge for us—and I know for Department of Labor IG—is we
are already three years since the beginning of the benefits going
out. We have got a lot of work still to do.
Mr. MURPHY. Right.
Mr. HOROWITZ. So, if it runs out in 2025 for some cases, that
is going to be a problem. We are going to need the 10 years.
Congress did this last year, bipartisan basis, extended it for the
two big SBA programs, Paycheck Protection Program, Economic In-
jury Disaster Loan program. They should do the same here.
Mr. MURPHY. Well, thank you. I hope that that is a bipartisan
effort that we can understand that fraud does occur and that we
need to enable you guys to actually investigate it and put those
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
criminals behind bars. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00293 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
286
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the representative, but I also
want to tack on to his points in regards to the unemployment num-
bers we have heard numerous times.
It is also important to know the fact that workforce participation
is currently at 62.3 percent, which is the lowest since Jimmy Car-
ter was president.
I would love to recognize the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr.
Kustoff.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you also to the
ranking member. Thank you, Chairman Smith, for convening to-
day’s hearing. Thank you also to the witnesses.
I know that you had—made diligent efforts to warn Congress
early on about the potential for fraud in the CARES program. And
unfortunately, we have not had these hearings until now to exam-
ine the extent of the unemployment fraud. But we are committed
to doing these examinations.
I do want to ask, if I can, there was—relating to Mr. Horowitz’s
testimony just a moment ago, Mr. Chairman, I would like to sub-
mit for the record the very first alert on the pandemic unemploy-
ment fraud issue that was issued by the United States Secret Serv-
ice that I believe Mr. Horowitz just referenced. It is dated May the
14th of 2020.
Chairman SMITH. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00294 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
287
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0230 here 53008A.230
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00295 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
288
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The alert is titled,
‘‘Massive Fraud Against State Unemployment Insurance Pro-
grams,’’ and it was directed to financial institutions across the
country. And to what Mr. Horowitz just said, it warned them of a
well-organized Nigerian fraud wing that was exploiting the
COVID–19 crisis to commit large-scale fraud against state unem-
ployment insurance programs.
The alert indicated—or indicated, rather—that banks at all lev-
els, at all levels were being targeted, and that the fraud wing pos-
sessed a substantial database of personally identifiable information
of first responders, government personnel, and school employees.
Mr. Horowitz, back to you for a moment. I think you testified a
week ago before the House Oversight Committee.
Mr. HOROWITZ. That is correct.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Your—some of your testimony, what you said, is
referenced, I saw, in an ABC News article from last week. This is
what it said you cited, if I can read from this report.
It says that the $5 trillion—$5 trillion total spent on pandemic
relief—throughout both the Trump and the Biden Administrations,
‘‘Horowitz said that the amount siphoned off by fraud could be any-
where from tens of billions of dollars to over $100 billion, but that
it would be years before the final numbers were tallied. The issue,
Horowitz said, was that the trillion-dollar programs had to get off
the ground quickly to prevent potential economic collapse, but they
lacked key fraud protections, including verification systems and in-
formation-sharing with other agencies to match up Social Security
numbers with people’s names and birth dates.’’
So, I guess my first question, is that—that fairly accurately re-
flects what you testified to last week.
Mr. HOROWITZ. It does.
Mr. KUSTOFF. You testified that the fraud could be over $100
billion. We have heard a lot of numbers testified to today. In fact,
it could greatly exceed $100 billion, right?
Mr. HOROWITZ. I don’t know. It could.
Mr. KUSTOFF. I am a former United States attorney. Mr.
Fitzpatrick is a former FBI agent. Mr. LaHood is a former assist-
ant U.S. attorney. I think everybody here, hopefully on both sides,
is concerned about the amount of fraud. When do we know that
number? When will we know that number?
Mr. HOROWITZ. I think it is going to be years to get a more pre-
cise number, exactly for the reasons you just read, which is—and
as you know, having been a Federal prosecutor, and for anybody
who has been in law enforcement, to find the overseas fraud is par-
ticularly challenging.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Yes.
Mr. HOROWITZ. You need to go through—you need the help of
other countries to find the money, because it probably isn’t in the
United States anymore. It is probably somewhere overseas.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Do you have an opinion whether the biggest
fraud is committed by domestic entities and individuals, or by for-
eign entities?
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Mr. HOROWITZ. I think it probably depends on the type of
scheme we are talking about.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00296 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
289
I think whenever you undertake programs like happened with
the two programs last week, the SBA programs and the self-certifi-
cation here for some of the UI programs, you are inviting
fraudsters to come in. They don’t—they can be in the United
States, they can be overseas.
One of the things, by the way, we are looking at with the data
analytics we are able to use, we are looking at IP addresses, now
that we have that information. We are going to try and figure out
how much of the incoming was from overseas.
Mr. KUSTOFF. If I can, briefly, two more questions.
Again, you cited the problems with the system. Essentially, the
systems don’t talk to each other. The—couldn’t match up the Social
Security numbers with people’s names and birth dates. If we had
another incident today like the pandemic that called for whatever
relief, are those safeguards in place today?
Mr. HOROWITZ. So, the good news is things are improving. The
bad news is we are not there yet.
And credit to many of the state workforce agencies that have
come together to try and build identity verification systems and
share information across their agencies, because, for unemployment
insurance at least, we are dealing with 54 different entities man-
aged at the local level, and they need to work together better.
There are efforts underway. There is a lot more that needs to be
done to get there.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, if I can, just briefly?
In your written report—we talk about the—that the PRAC is
working collaboratively with Department of Justice, with the Na-
tional Credit Union Administration, and other law enforcement
agencies. You cite in your report that the data collection effort
identified about $8.75 million that may be subject to recovery. I ap-
plaud that. But it is kind of a drop in the bucket.
Do you have other programs with other fiduciaries, domestic
banks, et cetera, larger financial institutions?
Mr. HOROWITZ. That is what we are working with, and we are
working with the Secret Service and other law enforcement that
have been engaged with the financial institutions.
As you know, people think of the Secret Service primarily as pro-
tecting the President and other dignitaries, but they actually have
a major role in dealing with counterfeiting and other financial in-
stitution fraud. So they have got a lot of relationships. We are try-
ing to leverage off of those in our work.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, sir.
I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I am pleased to
recognize the gentlelady from Wisconsin, Ms. Moore.
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Thank you so very, very much, Mr.
Chairman.
And I want to join the bipartisan rebuke of fraud. And I want
to commend all of you for the efforts that you are making for recov-
ery. And, you know, as a member, I am willing to explore ways to
help with that recovery.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
As many of you have indicated in your testimony, written and
verbal here today, this is not a new problem. We have heard var-
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00297 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
290
ious dates pushed out by many of my colleagues about when this
started. But I was thinking that 2010 was when the GAO first gave
us a warning that our systems were at risk.
Is that right, sir, Mr. Dodaro?
Mr. DODARO. Well, we have—I don’t—no. The—what I said
about 2010 was that the—New York’s deputy comptroller notified
New York State in 2010 that their systems needed to be improved.
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Right, okay, thank you for that clari-
fication.
And, you know, I am from Wisconsin, and I know that our IT
systems go back to the 1970s. You know, there was a sharp drop
in eligible unemployment recipients from, like 40, 50 percent to 28
percent. And what states like Wisconsin did, many states did, is
their staff, their trained staff, was also reduced in proportion to
that. So, no one was ready for this pandemic. That just left things
open for fraud, I would think.
And I would like to just get some clarification for Mr. Turner.
You mentioned that, you know, a lot of the overpayments that
we saw, and maybe even underpayments, were not people’s faults,
necessarily. They were states’ faults, their administrative problems
that they had, given this old technology and how overwhelming it
was.
I mean, we—you know, I have a report that I am going to ask
to be entered into the record, and it talks about how, in Wisconsin,
for example, that 80 percent of the people who called, they just let
the phones ring because they couldn’t respond to it.
So would you agree that, really, stuff outside of—that, you know,
states not implementing it, the Trump Administration not imple-
menting your recommendations, that these things created a glide
path for fraud?
Mr. TURNER. Well, there was a lot of mistakes made from the
states. In some cases, it was a lack of training——
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Yes.
Mr. TURNER [continuing]. on the part of the staff.
In the case of PUA, it was a lack of understanding the program
in some cases. And therefore, that caused some errors.
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Right.
But given that, I guess the other thing that I would like to know
from you, with all of your experience, Mr. Dodaro, do you still
stand by the statement that the U.S. Government Accountability
Office reviewed 30 different empirical studies and concluded that
UI benefits created overall economic stability and improved out-
comes for individuals?
Mr. DODARO. I do.
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Okay. And I just am sort of won-
dering, if we had not provided—you said you were there when Mr.
Paulson showed up asking for that 700 billion. Do you think we
could have had the same kind of catastrophic events, had we not
have provided unemployment?
Mr. DODARO. I think the—yes, we——
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. The 54 million people. Okay, thank
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
you.
Mr. DODARO. Yes.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00298 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
291
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Also, you did these 30 reports, and
you said—you reported that 8 of the 12 studies reviewed discussed
whether the benefits discouraged folk from returning to work, and
they said no. Is that something that is the case?
Mr. DODARO. That is what the studies concluded.
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Okay, very good.
Well, anyway, I would like, before my time expires, to enter into
the record a couple of documents, one from the Wisconsin Public
Radio: Lives on Hold: Pandemic Exposes Failures of Wisconsin’s
Unemployment Insurance System. And really, there are so many
sad stories.
I have other sad stories I would like to enter into the record from
my district office that talked about people just feeling almost suici-
dal and giving up hope of not getting their benefits.
This particular publication talks about a man in Wisconsin who
moved into his car because he—you know, he checked the wrong
box. He said he was—he didn’t know why he was let go of the job.
So that just sent his application into weeks and months’ long ob-
scurity. And he was humiliated, as a man, that he had to move in
with his ex-wife and her new boyfriend in order to survive. That
is very humiliating, and I think I would like everybody to—share
that story with everybody.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask unanimous consent to put in
the record Lives on Hold: Pandemic Exposes Failures of Wiscon-
sin’s Unemployment Insurance System, and some redacted copies
of the—my constituents who were affected, and I appreciate it.
Chairman SMITH. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00299 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
292
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0231 here 53008A.231
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00300 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
293
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0232 here 53008A.232
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00301 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
294
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0233 here 53008A.233
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00302 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
295
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0234 here 53008A.234
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00303 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
296
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0235 here 53008A.235
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00304 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
297
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0236 here 53008A.236
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00305 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
298
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0237 here 53008A.237
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00306 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
299
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0238 here 53008A.238
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00307 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
300
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0239 here 53008A.239
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00308 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
301
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0240 here 53008A.240
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00309 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
302
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0241 here 53008A.241
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00310 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
303
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0242 here 53008A.242
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00311 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
304
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0243 here 53008A.243
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00312 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
305
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Without objection?
Chairman SMITH. Without objection.
Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Thank you so much, sir, and I yield
back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Fitzpatrick.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DODARO, just to slightly revisit the issue of state waivers
from a different angle, as was mentioned earlier, I believe, by one
of my colleagues referencing the GAO report back in March of
2021, in that report you had discussed the issue of overpayments
with the PUA program, and the report said, keying in on one provi-
sion there, it said the DoL did not have plans to collect data on
states utilizing authority to waive Pandemic Unemployment Assist-
ance overpayments or the amount of overpayments that the states
may have waived.
Obviously, it is concerning that the exact amount of loss due to
fraud is not known for the reasons we discussed earlier. But just
as far as having no information about states waiving overpay-
ments, some of which may have been fraud, don’t you believe that
that information is, in fact, needed to effectively monitor and, ulti-
mately, recover these overpayments?
Mr. DODARO. Yes, absolutely. We recommended that the Labor
Department require the states to report how much money they
have recovered, how much they have waived, as well.
And so, I am always wary of waivers. And I think it is important
that the Labor Department have accurate information from the
states to monitor that effort.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. And any suggestion on a remedy there, mov-
ing forward?
Mr. DODARO. Well, there just needs to be required reporting of
that. I think that is just proper management of the program to be
able to do that. And the Department ought to follow up with the
states.
And I think it is also appropriate to either have the state audi-
tors, or perhaps at the Federal level, one of us do a sample of the
waivers to make sure they were adequately supported during the
process. So there needs to be——
Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do you have the manpower to do that?
Mr. DODARO. No, but we could find some way to figure out how
to do it. But somebody ought to do it. I think state auditors would
be in the best position to do that.
In fact, I don’t think the Federal Government uses state auditors
as effectively as possible for either the unemployment insurance
program or the Medicaid program, for that matter, because each
state system is a little different.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. Right.
Mr. Turner, in your testimony you had updated your estimate of
improper payments from roughly $163 billion to $191 billion, with
a significant portion attributable to fraud. Your estimate uses
DoL’s reported improper payment rate of about 21-and-a-half per-
cent for fiscal year 2022.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Understanding Mr. Horowitz’s well-made point that tracking this
stuff is incredibly difficult once it leaves our shores, it does require
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00313 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
306
cooperation with foreign governments, it is incredibly challenging,
nonetheless I think it exposes a massive vulnerability in our sys-
tem to allow it to leave our shores in the first place.
But to the extent you haven’t addressed this yet, sir, explain why
your estimate is so substantially different from the Administra-
tion’s estimate of $104 billion.
Mr. TURNER. Well, again, we take our rate from the Depart-
ment. And based on what the Department gave us, 21.5, that is
how we end up calculating it, the 191. So—and that is—they are
the ones that is responsible, as the policy owners, to provide that
rate. We can’t develop it ourselves.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. Has there been any discussion with the Ad-
ministration of reconciling these numbers?
Mr. TURNER. No, there has not been.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative, and I recognize
the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Tenney.
Ms. TENNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our
witnesses. I really appreciate you drilling down on these numbers.
I am actually a small business owner in upstate New York. Our
business is in our 77th year, and we were greatly impacted, and
been continually impacted, like all of our friends in business in
New York by unemployment insurance, by the mismanagement of
New York through a series of governors here, and by—and I think
it is fantastic that the chairman is doing a much-needed look into
this, and having you gentlemen with your expertise here to do this.
And, you know, our taxpayers, our employers, our employees
have paid the price for this fraud. And I just thought, you know,
there are so many numbers being thrown out here, and since, you
know, one of my favorite authors was Mark Twain, he made a fa-
mous statement I am sure all of you in the accounting business
knows. There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statis-
tics. Thank you, Mark Twain, who is buried in New York State, for
that.
But there are a lot of numbers being thrown around. And I refer
initially to the comments from the ranking member about the un-
employment. And sometimes these are misleading. There is eco-
nomic hardship right now in New York State. And you would think
that, you know, with 3.7 percent, that 96.3 percent of the rest of
the country are all working, which—we know that is not how the
numbers are calculated. So that is why we need to drill into these
statistics.
But one of the things I wanted to talk about is the recent find-
ings from the GAO. And I am going to address my first question
to you, Mr. Dodaro, is that there was an estimate of fraud and—
and, you know, you have answered this—$60 billion, with some
outside experts going as high as $400 billion. We have heard $180
billion.
But the New York fraud alone is estimated at about $11 billion,
and that is for fraudulent unemployment benefits since March
2020. In fact, the survey I conducted among my constituents and
employers was that countless cases of individuals have received un-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
employment forms they hadn’t requested, they have dealt with—
these—they have dealt with these ramifications without having
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00314 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
307
any verification. The payments were made, there was no look back
to the employers as to whether these people were actually em-
ployed, and many of them were actually my family members, who
were still gainfully employed. And so, many of these problems con-
tinue to persist in New York. And I thank you for calling out New
York for some of their systems.
But on top of that, the—New York State has an outstanding
trust fund loan of nearly $8 billion, which it has yet to repay. Be-
cause of this gross mismanagement by the state, taxpayers, small
businesses now have to make up that difference. And this has been
devastating to especially the smaller employers, especially res-
taurants forced to close during the pandemic.
And after all these hardships for the past couple of years, I just
wonder how it could possibly be fair to now foist this tab for this
negligence and incompetence, as you pointed out, on New York tax-
payers, on our employers who can really—really cannot afford to
keep this, and so many of them have closed.
So, I wanted to follow up with you on how—I want to make sure
that our Federal policies are no longer allowing this reckless be-
havior by irresponsible governments like New York State, which
you keep pointing out. And I know that my colleague from—Mr.
Higgins mentioned this, and alluded to this, as well. But my ques-
tion to you is that—is there a recommendation from the GAO, the
Government Accounting Office, issued to the Department of Labor
that has not been implemented that would address these concerns?
And is there a mechanism to compel New York to prioritize re-
paying this $8 billion of unemployment insurance loans, outside of,
say, an automatic increase in the state business taxes, which would
make us have even a larger out-migration of people and jobs in our
state?
Mr. DODARO. Yes. Well, there is a set of—we have 19 open rec-
ommendations to the Department of Labor. Eight of them focus on
the fraud areas. The—there is a set that focused on the need to
transform the unemployment insurance program itself to make it
more effective. That may go to this issue of incentives in the state.
One of the observations that I have had over the years is where
we are relying on states to administer Federal programs. There is
often a lot of deferential latitude that the Federal Government
gives the states to implement the programs. There is not a lot of
aggressive Federal oversight that is needed, and it doesn’t really
come vividly clear until you have these types of circumstances in
place.
You know, in good times we rely on the states to take, you know,
administer these programs, and give them a lot of flexibility. But
there needs to be a better balance between the Federal responsibil-
ities and the states’, and the Federal Government has to have addi-
tional responsibilities.
Now, the $8 billion, the states are allowed to borrow from the
Treasury Department when they run out of money. And then, you
are right, it has to be paid back by the employers within the state.
So that is left to the states’ own devices on how they decide to
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
repay that money back to the Federal Government.
Ms. TENNEY. Well, thank you. Can I just clarify one thing?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00315 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
308
The fraud risk assessment framework, is that what you were
talking about with the 19 recommendations?
Mr. DODARO. That is eight of them.
Ms. TENNEY. Eight of them, okay.
Mr. DODARO. Eight of the nineteen. The other ones go to the
need to transform the whole program to make it much more mod-
ern, efficient, and meant to deal with our modern economy.
Ms. TENNEY. Thank you. And please send that message back to
the New York State government now to save our employers. We
really appreciate that recommendation. It is 13 years ago now since
you made that. Thank you.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
point out that your favorite author, Mark Twain, is a good Missou-
rian from the Show-Me State who wrote his life about the Mis-
sissippi in our congressional district.
So, I would love to introduce—recognize the gentleman from
Michigan, Mr. Kildee.
Mr. KILDEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And to our witnesses,
thank you for your participation and your service to our country.
As the nation responded to the coronavirus pandemic, workers
and families, as we all recall, so painfully stayed home in order to
stay safe and to keep their families safe. Many lost their paychecks
and their livelihoods virtually overnight, through no fault of their
own. In my home state of Michigan, unemployment rose to 24 per-
cent in April of 2020, just 2 months after former President Trump
declared the health emergency.
In response, uninsured—unemployment insurance claims spiked
at over 388,000 per week, compared to the previous peak of 77,000
during the Great Recession. That is why, thankfully, Democrats
and Republicans jointly acted swiftly to pass bipartisan legislation
to get these necessary benefits in the hands of hard-working Amer-
icans as soon as they possibly could. Both parties came together to
pass and extend these critical benefits through legislation such as
the CARES Act.
Now, looking at the continued economic growth that our country
has had, these benefits did help millions of people, preventing them
from losing everything they have worked for, and precipitating a
larger crisis. The GAO has highlighted that these payments helped
keep our economy afloat and improve the labor market. Unemploy-
ment insurance kept money in people’s pockets, and prevented our
country from falling into much deeper economic demise.
Now, some have argued that these benefits disincentivized work-
ers and caused—are causing the labor shortage, despite the fact
that benefits expired in September of 2021. The latest jobs report,
obviously, would indicate otherwise.
In February of 2023, the Department of Labor reported that un-
employment was at 3.4 percent, the lowest since 1969. And I recog-
nize the distinction when it comes to labor participation rates, but
you just have to look at the data and see that labor participation
rates are really less than a point off where they were three years
ago, at what many would have considered to be peak economic ac-
tivity.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Now, the economy grew at 2.9 percent last quarter, more than
12 million new jobs created in just the last 2 years. Not only were
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00316 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
309
these benefits good for the economy, they were a lifeline for work-
ers when they most needed it. People were worried about putting
food on the table, keeping a roof over their head, paying for basics
like medicine.
I would like to just mention, you know, these are human stories.
My own constituents benefited from these important benefits sup-
ported, again, by both sides of the aisle. Cathy and Timothy from
Flint told me that the payments were hugely impactful. Timothy
was a musician at weddings and festivals and corporate events.
Cathy’s job in health insurance, they were able to provide and care
for their oldest daughter as a result of these benefits. Timothy
often worked nights to make sure that he did not have to hire a
caregiver.
These benefits made a difference. People like Carla in Bay City,
a self-employed cosmetologist, but due to the pandemic she lost her
main source of income. Without these benefits, she would have
been in a very difficult position, would have lost everything she has
worked for.
Those are just a couple of the instances. And of course, we all
know, all of us have had literally thousands of these cases come be-
fore us.
No one, I think, ever should indicate that we think this system
worked perfectly. We know of these difficulties. We know of the
problems, and they are real, and they are serious, and absolutely
have to be addressed. But I do think it is important that we not
fall into the trap of somehow conflating the bipartisan decision that
we all made to make sure that these benefits were quickly deliv-
ered to people at a time when, in order to protect themselves, they
had to stay at home.
Now, there is a debate in some revisionist history about just how
difficult those moments were. We didn’t know what the future was
going to be. Fast forward, a million Americans died. It would have
been millions more, had we not allowed people to make the deci-
sions that they needed to do to protect themselves without having
to lose everything that they have worked for.
So, let’s pledge that we will work to fix these problems. Let’s
pledge that we can come together to try to address these issues of
fraud. The money was stolen not just from the taxpayers, but actu-
ally from needed help to additional workers. We need to go after
this. But let’s not mistake—make the mistake of somehow deciding
we never should have done this in the first place, we never should
have supplied this help. We certainly should have. And now we
need to do what we can to make sure that we can reclaim the in-
tegrity and the aspects of the program that actually failed.
So, with that, Mr. Chairman, thanks for holding this hearing. I
yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I recognize the
gentlelady from the State of Minnesota, Mrs. Fischbach.
Mrs. FISCHBACH. The desks are so big, it is hard to reach. But
thank you, Mr. Chair.
And I just think Mr. Kildee had said a couple of the things about
the dollars being stolen from the taxpayers, from the hard-working
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
taxpayers. You know, and I think it bears saying it again and
again, where that money is coming from, because I think the—
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00317 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
310
Chair Smith had talked about, you know, the hard-working fami-
lies that this—these money came from, and I think it is important
that we remember that while we are having these discussions.
But I just wanted to, you know, ask a little bit. Mr. Turner, your
testimony notes that DoL provided $1.3 billion for states for UI
modernization, including IT modernization, and of the funds spent,
however, states did not always take advantage of the opportunity
to modernize their IT systems. Is that correct?
Mr. TURNER. That is correct.
Mrs. FISCHBACH. And do you know why that is, why they
didn’t take advantage of it?
Mr. TURNER. In some cases, it was reported that some of these
systems were so old that they did not really mesh well with the
CARES Act in some cases. But the states that did use it showed
benefit from doing so.
Mrs. FISCHBACH. Well, so is there something more that we can
use?
I mean, so those dollars are still sitting there?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, yes, those dollars are still there. And let me
just share with you. During the Recovery Act, there was $7 billion
that was dedicated for modernization, IT modernization. And of
that, there was about two billion that was used for something other
than that. And it was allowed at that time. But it just shows you
just, for some reason, it has not been a priority for states when it
comes to modernization. And that is one of the reasons that we
have paid the price that we have.
Mrs. FISCHBACH. So is—do you think there is anything that we
can do to encourage them to use those dollars so that we do mod-
ernize those?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I think one of the things the Department is
doing is with performance measures they are using and keeping it
as part of their top priorities.
But I think just more emphasis on that, and continued emphasis
will make a difference.
Mrs. FISCHBACH. Is there anything in—that is attached to that
money that would prevent them from using it now?
I mean—or is it going to be taken back, or——
Mr. TURNER. Well, some of that—well, first of all, they have es-
tablished an IT modernization office. And I think part of that is
going to help them provide the oversight that is needed by the De-
partment.
Mrs. FISCHBACH. Okay, all right. All right. Well, thank you
very much.
I also wanted to touch base with Mr. Dodaro about the—you
have got 10 points. And I know that we have talked a little bit
about the legislation—or at least the proposals that you had, and
I looked over the 10 issues you had for congressional consideration.
And I am just wondering if you wanted to expand a little bit, but—
on some of those.
But the other issue I—if these had been enacted, what kind of
reduction to the fraud do you think would have happened?
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
I mean, would they have had a direct result of stopping some of
that?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00318 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
311
Mr. DODARO. If effectively implemented, they would have had
a material effect. I don’t know exact—I can’t put a number on it.
But for example, the one recommendation that the improper pay-
ment estimate be made in the first year of the program, the PPP
program didn’t estimate improper payments until 2022. The pan-
demic unemployment insurance program still hasn’t. Even though
it has ended, it still doesn’t have an improper payment estimate.
If you had had estimates earlier, you would have been able to take
more forceful actions, and put things in place, and compelled the
states to focus on those issues earlier.
You know, the anti-fraud strategy that we have in place in the
Paycheck Protection Program, they didn’t designate an anti-fraud
dedicated entity until February 2022, when the program was al-
most finished. They didn’t do a fraud risk assessment until well
into 2021, almost the end of the 2021. The Labor Department still
hasn’t implemented the anti-fraud recommendations that we have
to them.
So, a lot of these things would have had a good effect, had they
been put in place. That is why we are urging Congress to pass
these legislative improvements.
But I would say also to this committee that, unless there is sus-
tained leadership attention at the Labor Department and effective
working relationships with the states combined, combined with
strong congressional oversight, these reforms won’t be effectively
implemented.
Mrs. FISCHBACH. Thank you very much.
Oh, and Mr. Horowitz, you had something?
Mr. HOROWITZ. Can I add on to that? It not only would involve
fraud prevention, but you would have better delivery of service to
the people who are entitled to the benefits, more prompt payment,
reduction in identity theft—think about how many people are deal-
ing with identity theft issues now, as a result. All of those cascades
from improving IT modernization, taking the steps that GAO has
recommended.
Mrs. FISCHBACH. Thank you very much.
And I have eight seconds. I will—or I went over, so I yield back.
Thank you.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I recognize the
gentleman from Utah, Mr. Moore.
Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Mem-
ber. The work here we are doing is very important, and I believe
our dialogue, while some differences, really has shone a spotlight
on our joint concern about fraud, right?
And I appreciate, more importantly, the witnesses—we have all
gotten the chance to get up and take a few meetings and a few
breaks—for sticking it out for a very long hearing. So, thank you
for that.
Fortunately, so for some positive here, there are lessons that we
can learn from states that have managed this very well. In Utah,
where I represent, fraud overpayments represented less than one
percent of benefits paid. I am incredibly proud of the work done by
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
our former governor, Gary Herbert, Governor Spencer Cox, their
administrations, and the Utah state legislature to create systems
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00319 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
312
and processes that protect taxpayer dollars. That is our most sa-
cred responsibility, I believe, back here in this Federal role.
And Congresswoman Spanberger and I have introduced the Pre-
venting Improper Payments Act, and—which we prepared following
an excellent study by the GAO about how we can safeguard tax-
payer dollars and prevent more waste, fraud, and abuse in the fu-
ture.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record a report
from the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee called Pan-
demic Unemployment: How Much Has Been Paid to Fraudsters.
Chairman SMITH. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00320 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
313
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0244 here 53008A.244
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00321 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
314
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0245 here 53008A.245
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00322 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
315
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0246 here 53008A.246
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00323 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
316
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0247 here 53008A.247
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00324 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
317
Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thank you. This report is yet another dem-
onstration of how much we don’t know about the size and scope of
this fraud.
Many states have produced separate reviews on their own UI
programs, and these reviews have sometimes included individual
state estimates of fraud and improper payments, and up to 21
states—this report tracked 21 states have reported approximately
$58 billion in fraud estimates across these programs. And that is
information that we have from less than—again, less than—half of
the states. So if state auditors are coming up with those large num-
bers, I do believe that the national estimate of $60 billion GAO re-
ported is quite low.
Mr. Horowitz, I have a question for you. In these state reports,
do we know how much of the funding identified as improper pay-
ments or fraud was Federal dollars?
Mr. HOROWITZ. So, for several of the pandemic programs, it is
Federal dollars that flowed to the states. There were other parts
of legislation enacted that were to fund and to support already-ex-
isting state programs. So, most of it is going to be Federal money.
Some of it could be mixed in with state money. And, as you indi-
cated, what we found was that the work of the state auditors was
critical to this effort, but states were calculating fraud numbers in
different ways.
So, I would have—we would have to go through state by state
to break that down.
Mr. MOORE of Utah. Yes, excellent. My—the gentleman from
Oklahoma highlighted something that I think Utahns feel a lot of
times. We try to run things as responsible as we possibly can. I
know there is a good faith estimate from a lot, but we do, Utahns
often times feel like why, if we are being so responsible and have
the data to show some of this, why can’t other states figure this
out? It is a continual frustration, and it is something that I hope
to represent and shine a light on.
My estimation—my understanding was that approximately 76
percent was Federal dollars. So, we are talking a total of close to
close to $700 billion. I mean, these are sizable numbers. These are
deficit-reducing opportunities for us, which is a huge responsibility
of this committee, is to be able to find ways to reduce deficits.
There is significant bipartisan opportunity, and we hope to be able
to do that with this. We will keep working on it.
Do you get a sense how—to what level are you confident that
states are going after this money and recovering it?
Mr. HOROWITZ. I think a lot of the dialogue has moved in a
positive direction over the last several years, from the state work-
force agencies in particular. We are seeing a lot more effort to work
together to do the kind of cross-border work that needs to get done,
and interactions with state auditors because they are so central to
this process, and important.
Mr. MOORE of Utah. And the Department of Labor’s role, where
would you—how would you describe, or kind of like—I want to
make sure that they do their role as much as possible.
Mr. HOROWITZ. So, I am going to defer to the IG there on that.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Mr. MOORE of Utah. Please.
Mr. TURNER. Repeat the question, please.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00325 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
318
Mr. MOORE of Utah. Just to what extent would you put the De-
partment of Labor responsible and involved in making sure that
states can go after and recover as much of these funds as possible?
Mr. TURNER. Oh, they are very responsible and involved.
I think one of the things that they began to take advantage of
is what we have kind of requested before, that people get more
data access to IG, OIG. And once that began to happen, we began
to see some improvement.
Mr. MOORE of Utah. Excellent. There is another quick question
to Mr. Turner, actually, about entrepreneurs, and they were at risk
of being targeted quite a bit for some of this fraud. And we want
to make sure that we are protecting that side of it, and making
sure that those that are honest, doing the work that they need to
do, that they have that capability.
Are there any measures you recommend to help implement—to
prevent fraud without penalizing these entrepreneurs?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I will be a little premature in speaking to
that now, because we actually have work going on to take a look
at that. And then I should be able to provide the committee some-
thing in the future.
Mr. MOORE of Utah. The whole point of this is to make sure we
do this better, we shine the light, and keep working on it. So,
thank you for your time.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I recognize the
gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Beyer.
Mr. BEYER. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much, and thank
you for holding this hearing.
Thank you for hanging in there.
I am so glad that we are holding a hearing on the unemployment
system, which has long been neglected and underfunded by Federal
and state policymakers. I can tell you that, like many of the col-
leagues here, at the height of the pandemic that is all we did was
chase down unemployment insurance claims.
I think—you know, and every story was distressing. Each one
was grimly similar, that the enhanced UI payments were literally
the only thing that allowed ordinary Americans who lost their work
through no fault of their own to pay their bills, to buy groceries,
to support their families.
We had myriad constituent cases, I think well over 1,000 just in
the first couple of months, that we are wrestling with in Virginia
with an antiquated and over-burdened state employment commis-
sion, and it just emphasized to me how important it was to have
a program like this in a time of crisis.
At the time, I was chairman of the Joint Economic Committee,
a bipartisan, bicameral—a great honor. And one of the things we
did was talk to the smartest economists across the board, Demo-
crat, Republican, you know, conservative, liberal about what to do.
And everyone started with the unemployment insurance system
and the enhanced unemployment. It became really clear that this
work was essential to the recovery.
You know, you have heard, I am sure, through many different
witnesses that no other country in the world has recovered as
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
quickly from the pandemic economically, as we, with still have a
ways to go.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00326 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
319
UI kept millions of Americans out of poverty, it saved countless
jobs, and prevented home foreclosures, which obviously destroyed
us in 2008 and 2009, and has set the stage for this historically low
unemployment, 54 years, steady GDP growth and, although there
is still a ways to go, slowing inflation.
Every Thursday at 5:00, the governor of Virginia held a con-
ference call with all the Democratic and Republican members of
the Virginia delegation. So, Morgan Griffith from southwest Vir-
ginia to Tim Kaine. And we each got our three or four minutes
with the governor. And virtually every conversation was about the
broken UI system. And he would have to explain that, in Rich-
mond, the software was from 1980, the codes were—nobody knew
anymore, and the hardware was from 1980, and that they were
doing the best they could with—but they had not—you know, in
January of 2020 they hadn’t expected the incredible deluge that
they had.
So right away, we tried to go to work and say, look, let’s—as we
are handing money out, let’s make sure that we are giving a lot
of money to the states, Democratic and Republican-led states, to in-
vest in their UI systems, so that if this ever happens again, we can
be ready.
So, Mr. Turner, a softball question. Would investing in highly
trained state UI staff and better computer systems help prevent
the fraud that we were talking about today, and ensure that the
benefits are paid on time?
Mr. TURNER. No doubt about it. That is something that we
have included in our recommendations in the past.
Mr. BEYER. That is a very short answer, thank you. [Laughter.]
Mr. BEYER. That is about the shortest I have heard in my four
years on the Ways and Means.
Mr. Horowitz, a similar question. And you mentioned that mul-
tiple states experienced issues verifying eligibility for benefits. That
was a huge one for us. People would be ruled ineligible, and that
would take them weeks or months to be able to prove their eligi-
bility, and long delays because of that.
One of the things we provided in the American Rescue Plan,
which half of us like, was upgrading antiquated state UI computer
systems. How important is that investment for the fraud that we
are talking about?
Mr. HOROWITZ. It is critical. The states, as you indicated, the
situation with Virginia, it is not alone. It is a problem across the
country. States need to upgrade their IT systems.
We have moved light years in just the last several years on the
ability to do verification, identity verification. And so, systems has
to—have to catch up.
Mr. BEYER. Great, great. Well, I still have a minute left, which
I will yield back.
And I want to thank you for showing up, and for helping us get
our hands around this, balancing both the need to preserve every
possible taxpayer dollar from fraud, but also making sure that we
are supporting the American citizens who look to us.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I recognize the
gentlelady from the State of California, Mrs. Steel.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00327 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
320
Mrs. STEEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank the
witnesses for being here today, and all—for all the work you have
done to shine a spotlight on this important issue. Today’s hearing
is about fraud, and this lost funds actually came from hard-work-
ing taxpayers, and it should not happen again.
Last Congress I led an effort to recover funds, prevent fraud, and
support the victims of unemployment fraud and identity theft.
Along with Speaker McCarthy I introduced the Pandemic Unem-
ployment Assistance Fraud Protection Act. My bill would create an
incentive structure to encourage states to recover fraudulent unem-
ployment payments, require states to revamp and improve fraud
prevention efforts in the unemployment program, and include nec-
essary protection for victims, those innocent taxpayers who receive
1099K without receiving these employment payments—unemploy-
ment benefits fraud.
My constituents, Californians, and Americans who actually need
unemployment assistance should be the ones who receive it, not
criminals.
California was one of the biggest targets for this fraud. The State
of California Legislative Analysis Office reported that $18.7 billion,
94 percent of unemployment insurance benefit fraud, may have oc-
curred in the federally funded unemployment program. An esti-
mated $20 billion in potentially fraudulent unemployment pay-
ments are still under investigation.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record for—a report
by California State Auditor issued in January 2021.
Chairman SMITH. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00328 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
321
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0248 here 53008A.248
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00329 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
322
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0249 here 53008A.249
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00330 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
323
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0250 here 53008A.250
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00331 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
324
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0251 here 53008A.251
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00332 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
325
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0252 here 53008A.252
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00333 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
326
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0253 here 53008A.253
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00334 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
327
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0254 here 53008A.254
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00335 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
328
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0255 here 53008A.255
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00336 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
329
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0256 here 53008A.256
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00337 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
330
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0257 here 53008A.257
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00338 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
331
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0258 here 53008A.258
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00339 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
332
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0259 here 53008A.259
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00340 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
333
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0260 here 53008A.260
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00341 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
334
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0261 here 53008A.261
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00342 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
335
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0262 here 53008A.262
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00343 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
336
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0263 here 53008A.263
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00344 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
337
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0264 here 53008A.264
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00345 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
338
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0265 here 53008A.265
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00346 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
339
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0266 here 53008A.266
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00347 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
340
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0267 here 53008A.267
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00348 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
341
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0268 here 53008A.268
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00349 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
342
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0269 here 53008A.269
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00350 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
343
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0270 here 53008A.270
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00351 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
344
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0271 here 53008A.271
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00352 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
345
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0272 here 53008A.272
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00353 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
346
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0273 here 53008A.273
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00354 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
347
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0274 here 53008A.274
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00355 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
348
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0275 here 53008A.275
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00356 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
349
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0276 here 53008A.276
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00357 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
350
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0277 here 53008A.277
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00358 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
351
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0278 here 53008A.278
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00359 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
352
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0279 here 53008A.279
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00360 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
353
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0280 here 53008A.280
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00361 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
354
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0281 here 53008A.281
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00362 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
355
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0282 here 53008A.282
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00363 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
356
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0283 here 53008A.283
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00364 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
357
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0284 here 53008A.284
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00365 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
358
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0285 here 53008A.285
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00366 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
359
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0286 here 53008A.286
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00367 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
360
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0287 here 53008A.287
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00368 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
361
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0288 here 53008A.288
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00369 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
362
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0289 here 53008A.289
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00370 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
363
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0290 here 53008A.290
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00371 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
364
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0291 here 53008A.291
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00372 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
365
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0292 here 53008A.292
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00373 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
366
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0293 here 53008A.293
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00374 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
367
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0294 here 53008A.294
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00375 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
368
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0295 here 53008A.295
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00376 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
369
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0296 here 53008A.296
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00377 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
370
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0297 here 53008A.297
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00378 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
371
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0298 here 53008A.298
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00379 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
372
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0299 here 53008A.299
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00380 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
373
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0300 here 53008A.300
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00381 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
374
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0301 here 53008A.301
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00382 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
375
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0302 here 53008A.302
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00383 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
376
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0303 here 53008A.303
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00384 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
377
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0304 here 53008A.304
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00385 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
378
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0305 here 53008A.305
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00386 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
379
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0306 here 53008A.306
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00387 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
380
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0307 here 53008A.307
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00388 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
381
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0308 here 53008A.308
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00389 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
382
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0309 here 53008A.309
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00390 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
383
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0310 here 53008A.310
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00391 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
384
Mrs. STEEL. This report found significant weaknesses in the
Employment Development Department’s approach to fraud preven-
tion, which led to billions of dollars in improper benefit payments.
According to the report, EDD paid $1 billion of $11 billion, in part
due to a problematic decision to streamline its process by removing
a safeguard against paying individuals with unconfirmed identities.
EDD, which was led by current Department of Labor Deputy
Secretary Julie Su, issued the payments to those claimants with
unconfirmed identities before discovering it had removed the safe-
guards for more than a four-month period. And believe it or not,
she was just named then Acting Secretary of the Department of
Labor, so somebody who messed up in California’s EDD problems.
California made it easy for fraudsters access benefits, and that
had devastating consequences for my constituents. We should all be
on the side of good governance and protection of taxpayer money,
and the billions in fraud paid out over the last two years is an em-
barrassment.
Mr. Turner, last October your agency issued a report finding that
nearly half of the pandemic unemployment benefits may have been
improperly paid, with 1 in $5 going to fraudsters. California was
one of the worst states you looked at. One of the things your report
looked at was timeliness of the payments.
I share the concerns voiced by my friends on the other side of the
aisle about ensuring equity and access to benefits. That doesn’t
mean we should prioritize speed over safeguards just to get money
out the door quickly. California stories show how unfair and unjust
the consequences can be for taxpayers and workers.
Mr. Turner, can you talk about best practices, and what needs
to be done to modernize systems to ensure states have the proper
verification up front?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, and thanks for the question. I think one of
the things that we don’t do enough and utilize enough is data ana-
lytics. Data analytics has helped us. It has been a game changer
and a force multiplier, and it was one of the things that allowed
us to identify the $45.6 billion in fraud from those 4 high-risk areas
that I mentioned earlier. So that is one thing.
I think also maybe we need to look at probably a central data-
base. One of the things that helped this fraud get perpetrated was
the fact that every state, all 53 states or entities, operate different
systems. So, there was not enough cross-checking to basically catch
some of that fraud early on.
Mrs. STEEL. So how are you going to make it easy between Cali-
fornia—especially California is the highest amount, that fraudulent
amount that, you know, you found out. So how are you going to
work with the state and Federal Government?
Mr. TURNER. Well, just giving guidance from our reports as far
as what needs to be done to be improved. I think that is a big start.
And just emphasizing working together, and coming up with
maybe one system, because right now the biggest challenge for the
OIG is data access. And so—and that is what I believe slowed us
down in identifying some of this fraud earlier.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Mrs. STEEL. Thank you very much.
I yield back.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00392 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
385
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. I would like to
recognize Ms. Van Duyne from the great state of Texas.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank
you for holding this hearing, as well.
As my colleagues have already alluded to, this hearing is long
overdue. It is entirely unacceptable that it took a change in control
of Congress to investigate the greatest theft of taxpayer dollars the
United States has ever seen. And yet this Administration has not
shown an ounce of care.
Behind me I want you to look at the estimates of immensely irre-
sponsible amounts of fraud and improper payments. The fact that
the Biden Administration can turn a blind eye to this dire level of
fraud raises questions that there is no end in sight.
OMB estimates an appalling $104 billion of potential fraud. Let’s
put that into perspective, because we have been throwing out num-
bers like they don’t mean anything: $104 billion, that is a level of
spending that is equal to the entire budget of the Department of
Veterans Affairs, the entire budget. But it is also thought by a
number of professional auditing agencies that that number is
worse. It is four times that amount. It is up to $400 billion.
And not only is this the greatest theft of taxpayer money, but it
is borderline criminal, and certainly pure incompetency. The over-
sight of this money is an absolute dumpster fire being put out by
a fireman with a garden hose.
Mr. Turner, you mentioned that you had sent correspondence to
the Trump Administration about some of these concerns. Have you
also sent correspondence communications to the Biden Administra-
tion?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, we have.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Do you think—do you have any reason to sus-
pect that there was fraud, abuse, potential outlays of dollars that
were improper after January 20th of 2021?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, there was.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. I appreciate you saying that, because I think
members on the other side of this aisle need to hear that. We have,
in the last two years, experienced a lot of fraud. We are talking
about $400 billion that, to the people that they claim that they
want to help, that dollars could have gone into those pocketbooks.
We just released—just because they are saying that this hap-
pened under the Trump Administration does not release Congress
from its duty to be able to protect those dollars. We have to admit
that there have been problems under both administrations, right?
We can’t just stick our head in the sand and blame Trump for ev-
erything, and pretend, like we heard last night, that everything
under this Administration is rosy and perfect.
We have an opportunity right now today to have an honest dis-
cussion. You would assume that getting down to fraud and abuse
and saving taxpayer dollars for those people who need it the most
would be a bipartisan effort.
All of you are well versed. You have done a tremendous amount
of investigation. You have got solutions on the table that you want
to present to us today. But instead, we are hearing about the wit-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
nesses who aren’t here, the stories of people who have used unem-
ployment. We understand it was used. It was used by people who
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00393 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
386
needed it the most. But we also understand up to $400 billion was
misused, and we need to get down to that.
And I have got some questions. I know during my time on Small
Business that there were issues with PPP and EIDL, and we
thought those dollars were being spent overseas illegally. Do we
know how much money went to international organizations and
foreign actors?
Do we know if this money fell into the hands of terrorist organi-
zations?
And can we track how much money actually went overseas?
And probably the biggest question I have got for any of you: Do
we have any hope I have ever seen these dollars again?
Mr. Dodaro.
Mr. DODARO. History will tell us that there will be a very low
percentage that would likely be recovered from fraud. And that is
just the fact of the matter.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr. Turner.
Mr. TURNER. I would agree. And let me just say it is going to
take a while. As you know, the—a lot of the fraud is still out there.
We still have 162 open investigations that we haven’t looked at.
And so it is going to actually take quite a while to ever figure out
exactly how much.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr. Horowitz.
Mr. HOROWITZ. The recovery rate is clearly going to be far
below what the fraud rate is. Having said that, the public should
know we are going to do everything we can in our powers to try
and track down and find every dollar. And Congress has given us
tools to do that. We are asking for some more, and we are going
to do everything we can.
We are going to also, by the way, use suspension and debarment
authorities and others to try and make sure that crime doesn’t pay
to the best extent possible we are able to do it.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Do you think it is important to us that we
start that as soon as possible, and not have kind of this political
theater?
Mr. HOROWITZ. Oh, absolutely. Look, this—and we are doing it.
We have been doing it for three years, and we are going to keep
doing it.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. I appreciate that answer. Thank you very
much.
And I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentlelady and recognize
the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Evans.
Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my com-
ments will be to the point.
First, I want to thank the ranking member for what he has said,
because I believe he has summed it up. And when you talk about
just the facts, that is what I believe that it should come down to.
That is where I believe that we are.
So, I encourage my colleagues to consider these distressed con-
stituents, and remember that unemployment insurance saved the
economy and kept families out of poverty. So, I believe that what
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
he said, he summed it up.
And I yield back the balance of my time.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00394 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
387
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, I thank the gentleman. I recog-
nize the gentleman from Iowa, Mr. Feenstra.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman Smith. Thank you
also to each of our witnesses for your testimony. I greatly appre-
ciate it.
Obviously, we have talked about, you know, what has happened
at the height of the pandemic, with 15.4 percent unemployment, 23
million people unemployed. The circumstances, obviously, de-
manded a resolution, and we did that. But with that created risk.
And now we are responsible. We are responsible for oversight of
the risk that occurred in giving these unemployment benefits.
What is interesting to me is that we never had oversight, or
never had hearings in 117th Congress, despite the warnings that
were noted last March from the Department of Labor that we had
$163 billion of improper payments.
So, I am grateful. I am very grateful and thank Chairman Smith
for holding this hearing. And I also want to thank you again as
witnesses for doing so and being part of this.
Mr. DODARO, it is very important, I think, that we continue to
assess the exact scale of the problem. I mean, we really need to
know the exact scale. And I know you have been working on that.
I greatly appreciate it.
The GAO’s report last month noted that this is a little difficult
concerning the false positives and false negatives. We are not sure.
Also, due to the lack of consistent and reliable estimates that cover
all UI payments during the pandemic, it is not currently possible
to combine existing estimates and measures to make a meaningful
statement about the extent of fraud and UI programs during the
pandemic.
So, in your testimony you noted GAO has committed to build on
existing evidence with its own modeling to calculate a more precise
estimate. Can you talk about that?
How do we refine our estimate, and what would be the barriers
in refining that estimate?
Mr. DODARO. Well, first, the Labor Department, for a number
of years, has what is called the—the acronym is BAM, Benefit Ac-
curacy Measurement program. So, they estimate a national fraud
rate and a national improper payment rate. So far, they have not
measured the improper payment rate for the pandemic unemploy-
ment insurance program. That was the one for self-employed peo-
ple, a brand-new program. We all think that the rate, fraud rate,
is higher for that program than probably the more traditional un-
employment insurance program because there was—allowed for
self-certification rate.
So, what we are trying to do is to look at that program, in par-
ticular. We will see what the Labor Department comes up with
their estimate, which is due this year, and then we will do some
sampling of that particular program. We are going to look and do
some modeling of other areas. So, we are going to take a modeling
approach. We are also going to try to sample some of the estimates.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Yes.
Mr. DODARO. And it is important to remember that our esti-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
mate of 60 billion is the low end.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Correct.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00395 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
388
Mr. DODARO. We have said that that is the low end. We are
working on a higher rate now.
Mr. FEENSTRA. So, when do you think you can have a more ac-
curate number? At what point——
Mr. DODARO. I mentioned earlier late this summer.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Late this—okay, late this summer, okay.
Mr. DODARO. Late this summer. If we do it earlier, I will obvi-
ously let you know.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Yes.
Mr. DODARO. But I think it is important——
Mr. FEENSTRA. It is.
Mr. DODARO [continuing]. to note that there are a lot of num-
bers out there.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Yes.
Mr. DODARO. But they are all bad.
Mr. FEENSTRA. I hear you. An accurate number would be won-
derful. Then we know what we are dealing with, right?
So, another question. So, I come out of State of Iowa. I was chair
of ways and means. I handled unemployment, the tax tables and
stuff like that, understanding the nuances of unemployment tax.
So, when I look at empowering state auditors, I really think we can
do this. I think we can use state auditors, but we have got to em-
power them.
So, Dodaro, and even Mr. Turner, what are your ideas to em-
power them? Because they are just not going to say, oh, I am going
to do this, right? I mean, they could care less about the Federal
Government. It’s like—but we can do things to empower them.
What are your thoughts on that?
Mr. DODARO. I think we should have specific audit require-
ments for state auditors to look at the unemployment insurance
program and the Medicaid program. These are two programs on
our high-risk lists. Medicaid is one of the fastest-growing programs.
Right now, there is hardly any auditing done of the managed
care portion of Medicaid. And——
Mr. FEENSTRA. But do they care? I mean, I look at the state
going—and they are—I mean, I—we use our tables, and it is like,
what do we care about—why should I do this for the Federal Gov-
ernment? I mean——
Mr. DODARO. Well, but I think in both of those programs states
provide their own money.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Yes, right, that is true.
Mr. DODARO. And so there are some incentives for them. I
mean, the Medicaid program is probably a third of each state’s
budget, at least, in the program.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Right, right. So, do you think that is enough
carrot? I mean, I just——
Mr. DODARO. Well, all you got to do is turn an auditor loose,
and you give them some money to pay for——
Mr. FEENSTRA. There is the key. You hit it on the head. You
give them a little incentive of money, don’t you think?
Mr. DODARO. Right. You have to provide support.
Mr. FEENSTRA. Yes.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Mr. DODARO. Now, right now, there are single audits that are
done by state auditors.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00396 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
389
Mr. FEENSTRA. Yes.
Mr. DODARO. But they don’t focus enough on the detailed as-
pects of fraud and mismanagement. They are starting point for ac-
countability——
Mr. FEENSTRA. Yes.
Mr. DODARO [continuing]. But they are not the answer.
Mr. FEENSTRA. No, no. Well, I want to thank you for that.
I just want to quickly note, I mean, when you work in business,
you pay people to collect debt. That might be a clue for our first
eight auditors for the Federal Government.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. I thank the representative. I would like to
recognize the gentlelady from the State of New York, Ms.
Malliotakis.
Ms. MALLIOTAKIS. Thank you very much. Thank you so much
for your testimony. It was very informative.
And we have heard today of the massive figures of improper un-
employment payments, many fraudulent, which could be as high as
$400 billion, some of which could have been prevented if we had
put in the proper guardrails in place in—particularly in the last
$1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan that the Democrats jammed
through.
My home state of New York—unfortunately, but not surpris-
ingly—ranks near the top of the list, with an estimated $11 billion
in fraudulent unemployment payments—I mean, payments alone.
These taxpayer dollars went to fraudsters, many who are from
overseas, as far away as China and Russia and Nigeria, who
bought luxury cars, condos, watches, designer goods.
As you could see, I mean, a nice graph here, because we haven’t
talked about that today. It is shocking to my constituents when we
tell them that this pandemic relief money shamefully went to pur-
chase 18 carat Rolex watches, luxury condominiums, Louis Vuitton
and other designer goods, a $10 million villa in the Dominican Re-
public, $3.5 million mansion in New Jersey, chartered jet services,
luxury vehicles, from Porsches to Mercedes Benz to Ferraris to
Bentleys. One person even received $1.5 million over a span in 10
months.
This is absolutely unacceptable, and I am glad to hear today that
there is bipartisan support to crack down on this, and we must do
what we can to recoup this money.
But to make matters worse, my district offices in Staten Island
and Brooklyn worked with dozens of constituents who have had
their identities stolen and could not get the unemployment benefits
that they desperately needed. Because the department of labor in
New York failed to prevent fraud at the outset of the pandemic, the
Unemployment Insurance Trust Fund was drained. And for the
last two years the state has had an outstanding loan to the tune
of $8 billion from the Federal Government. My colleague mentioned
this earlier. I am concerned that New York small businesses are
going to be left holding the bag.
And my question, if you can clarify, if New York continues to fail
to repay its Federal advance due to its failure to limit this fraud,
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
will their per-worker tax keep increasing year after year, and by
how much?
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00397 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
390
Mr. DODARO. I can provide an answer for the record for it, but
I would say offhand that that is up to the state to decide how to
repay the money.
Now, some of the pandemic money was available for states to use
to repay their money that they owed to the unemployment insur-
ance program. So, I even think there is money, you know, in the
coronavirus relief fund that was given, $350 billion to the states,
I believe—don’t hold me precisely to this, but if my memory serves
me right, some of that money could be used to help repay the pro-
gram.
So, it depends on the decisions made by the governors and the
state legislatures on how to repay that money.
Ms. MALLIOTAKIS. Well, that is a good point, and it is about
$100 billion that is unspent in COVID relief funds. So perhaps the
Federal Government can take action there.
Which states did it right? Okay, New York, obviously, did it
wrong. My colleague talked about his state of Utah, that they had
good preventive measures in place. What states, Mr. Horowitz, do
you think are model states that we should be looking at on how to
prevent this type of fraud?
Mr. HOROWITZ. What we have seen are evolving actions by the
states over the last several years. And so, what I would want to
do is get back to you on sort of which ones perhaps are leading the
effort.
There are several, though, as part of the National Association of
State Workforce Agencies, that have come together to, for example,
implement identification verification, identity verification tools that
have been very important because—you mentioned identity theft.
We at the PRAC often talk about identity theft creating three vic-
tims: there is the public at large, because it is the public’s program
that gets the money stolen from; there is, obviously, the person
whose identity is stolen, who has credit issues, other issues they
have got to deal with; but then there is the person, as you men-
tioned, who was the intended beneficiary.
And we have heard testimony about individuals, as you said, who
went to get benefits, whether it is from unemployment insurance
or other programs, and were turned down because the agencies
thought they were the fraudsters.
Ms. MALLIOTAKIS. No, I appreciate that.
Mr. HOROWITZ. The fraudster beat them there.
Ms. MALLIOTAKIS. And I want to—just 20 seconds left with—
on that point.
Mr. Dodaro, your testimony notes that as of October 2022 there
have been 41 states using the Identity Verification Service that
provides new data sets to conduct enhanced unemployment claim
and identity verification, as was discussed here, and contains cross-
matching with Social Security, the Death Master File, to identify
the use of deceased persons.
Can you please talk about that? Why are—and should all states
be using this service, number one?
And do we have an estimate of how many dead people received
unemployment benefits?
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Mr. DODARO. I don’t know if Mr. Horowitz knows that, or Mr.
Turner, but I don’t have the estimate for the total number.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00398 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
391
But I do know that it is an appropriate cross-match to make.
And one of the easiest targets for fraudsters is to get a Social Secu-
rity number from a deceased individual. A lot of this information,
as Mr. Turner mentioned earlier, is on the dark web. And they can
do that.
And I know my own mother received—she passed away, unfortu-
nately, right before the pandemic, so she received an economic in-
centive payment from the Treasury Department. Now, my sister re-
turned it, because she called me and said, ‘‘What to do?’’
I said, ‘‘Send it back.’’
And so, you know, Treasury—this is a problem at the Federal
Government, too. Treasury sent $1.4 billion to an estimated 1.2 de-
ceased individuals in the economic incentive programs. Now, due to
our recommendation, I got about half of that back, so about $700
million.
The—right now, the Treasury Department Fiscal Service is not
allowed to use the Social Security full Death Master File to check
before they make a Federal payment. Now, that is something I
have been trying to get for years. Congress finally passed it. It is
due to take effect next year around this time. But I think it should
be expedited and made prominent on the basis.
I mean, there is no reason that we should be doing this.
Ms. MALLIOTAKIS. Thank you.
Mr. TURNER. Just if I could add on that—the Death—Social Se-
curity numbers of dead individuals, we do have that available. I
don’t have it broken down for me right now, but we can provide
that to you at a later time after the hearing.
Ms. MALLIOTAKIS. Thank you. I am sure everyone on the com-
mittee would like to know that, the answer to that.
Mr. TURNER. Yes, we can provide that.
Ms. MALLIOTAKIS. Thank you.
Mr. HOROWITZ. And we will, you know, work to get that data.
But I would say, just picking up on Mr. Dodaro’s comment, we—
on our fraud alert we just released, when we matched PPP and
EIDL information with the Social Security Administration, we have
several thousand deceased individuals who got PPP and EIDL
loans. Our job now is we are trying to figure out if they were alive
at the time of application. My guess is some were, my guess is
many weren’t, because we have seen this problem, and it makes no
sense why you would want the Social Security Administration to
have a Death Master File index, and yet let other parts of the Fed-
eral Government pay out billions of dollars in benefits to individ-
uals who are deceased.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative. We will now rec-
ognize the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Schneider.
Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and let me start
with the obvious.
Everyone on this committee is outraged at the rampant fraud ex-
perienced during the pandemic. American taxpayers, including, as
was touched on, those who relied on the programs stood up by this
Congress—and, by the way, stood up unanimously by Republicans
and Democrats together—were victimized by deceitful individuals
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
and organized criminal groups. No one is defending it. We all agree
that we should be doing everything possible to recover the money
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00399 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
392
stolen and prosecute those who stole the money to the full extent
of the law.
We also need to make sure that, going forward, we are better at
defending against fraud, from program design to system develop-
ment supporting the programs, and deterring those inclined to con-
sider stealing from taxpayers with greater prosecution and en-
hanced recovery.
And let’s review the facts. Three years ago, our nation faced an
unprecedented health and economic crisis. In February of that
year, we sat in this very room with Secretary Azar. I would ven-
ture to say that no one sitting here had any idea of the devastating
impact the pandemic would have.
We had a much better view a month later, when we came back
to D.C. and passed the CARES Act, bipartisan, unanimous. And
then 20 million people lost their jobs. Unemployment reached near-
ly 15 percent, and that is the highest rate since the Great Depres-
sion. And there was no end in sight.
Now let’s consider what would have happened if Congress had
not acted. Maybe another Great Depression, the loss not just of in-
dividual businesses, but of entire industries, and millions of people
out of work with no prospect of finding a new job, rising poverty
across the country, and negative economic and social impact lasting
for generations.
So, some like charts. I love analogies. We had a five-alarm fire
raging out of control. We were trying to put that fire out with
water passed in buckets as fast as possible, and the buckets had
holes. Speed mattered, as we have discussed, which meant that
there was a trade-off between trying to fix the holes and precisely
passing the buckets so no water spilled and getting the water as
quickly and effectively as possible to the fire lines. And unfortu-
nately, that would mean not getting 100 percent of the water to the
flames.
Does anyone here want to claim we failed in our primary goal of
putting out the fire?
Are you asserting that the millions of Americans out of work at
the time and otherwise unable to feed their families or keep roofs
over their heads didn’t receive desperately needed assistance?
Is anyone arguing that we should not have stood up these pro-
grams?
Last month, this economy created more than 500,000 jobs, 12
million jobs just in the past 2 years, and employment, as also has
been noted today, is at its lowest rate in 54 years.
So my questions to our panel, as we have discussed today the
breadth and sophistication of the many unemployment insurance
schemes and the ongoing efforts to pursue criminals and reclaim
the monies, and with an eye towards making sure that we are bet-
ter prepared if we face a similar crisis, what should have or could
have Congress and the Trump Administration done in 2020 to bet-
ter protect against fraudulent claims, and what should we be doing
now?
And I will start with you, Mr. Dodaro.
Mr. DODARO. First, the legislation that Congress passed in
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
2016 was to get agencies prepared to prevent fraud. That needs to
be effectively implemented. It is still not effectively implemented at
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00400 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
393
the Labor Department or at the Small Business Administration
and others. So, we are slightly better prepared than we were be-
fore, but we are not fully prepared for the next emergency so that,
to use your analogy, that, you know, we saved—you know, the fire
doesn’t do as much damage as it does before, we put it out. And
that—all right?
And so, secondly, there needs to be more oversight by the Con-
gress to make sure agencies put these anti-fraud prevention meas-
ures in place, and deal with improper payments. Since 2003, when
agencies have been required to report improper payments, there
has been $2.4 trillion in improper payments. This is a problem that
is pervasive across the government. Last year, 86 programs, 16 dif-
ferent agencies. More attention needs to be put on these two mat-
ters.
Mr. SCHNEIDER. Great, thank you.
Mr. Turner.
Mr. TURNER. For us I would say data access. If Labor OIG had
data access from the start, instead of having to wait five or six
months to get it, we would have been able to move out and identify
some of these issues a lot earlier. So, for us, that would be the key.
And although the Department has gotten better with that, they
are assisting us, but it is a temporary solution that we have in a—
in place right now. And so, we hope that we can get something
more permanent, and we would hate to resort back to IG sub-
poenas.
Mr. SCHNEIDER. Okay. Mr. Horowitz.
Mr. HOROWITZ. IT modernization, what Mr. Dodaro said on
that.
Transparency, greater transparency into data. Justice Brandeis
famously said, ‘‘Sunlight is the best of disinfectants.’ Get that infor-
mation out. We need it. The IG needs it.
And third, data analytics, the ability to cross-match data. One
person shouldn’t be able to take their Social Security number to 40-
plus states to get benefits.
Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you. And if I can quote my friend, Mr.
Kelly, we shouldn’t be pointing fingers. Let’s find a way to work to-
gether and solve this problem, make sure we don’t face a crisis like
this again.
I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative.
We want to highlight again the purpose of this hearing is to in-
vestigate the size and scope of fraud in the Federal unemployment
program, which more than doubled in the last few years during the
pandemic. The purpose is to investigate fraud.
I would like to introduce—recognize the gentleman from Ohio,
Mr. Carey.
Mr. CAREY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank the
witnesses for your time and your patience with all the questions
that you are getting asked.
We highlighted, I think throughout today, the importance that
state auditors have in—across the country. To that end, Keith
Faber, who is our state auditor, actually issued a report. And in
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
it—in the—which I will be eventually putting it to the record—
Ohio estimated—is estimated to have paid over a billion in fraudu-
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00401 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
394
lent unemployment benefits from March 2020 to 2022. And I think
my colleague from Ohio highlighted the fact that both our gov-
ernor, our lieutenant governor, and the governor’s wife each re-
ceived the fraudulent claims.
The other thing that the auditor’s report identified, which I
found interesting, was it identified over $475 million was actually
paid to criminals.
So, Mr. Chairman, without objection, I would like to submit this
for the record.
Chairman SMITH. Without objection.
[The information follows:]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00402 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
395
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0311 here 53008A.311
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00403 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
396
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0312 here 53008A.312
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00404 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
397
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0313 here 53008A.313
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00405 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
398
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0314 here 53008A.314
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00406 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
399
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0315 here 53008A.315
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00407 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
400
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0316 here 53008A.316
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00408 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
401
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0317 here 53008A.317
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00409 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
402
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0318 here 53008A.318
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00410 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
403
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0319 here 53008A.319
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00411 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
404
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0320 here 53008A.320
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00412 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
405
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0321 here 53008A.321
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00413 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
406
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0322 here 53008A.322
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00414 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
407
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0323 here 53008A.323
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00415 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
408
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0324 here 53008A.324
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00416 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
409
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0325 here 53008A.325
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00417 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
410
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0326 here 53008A.326
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00418 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
411
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0327 here 53008A.327
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00419 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
412
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0328 here 53008A.328
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00420 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
413
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0329 here 53008A.329
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00421 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
414
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0330 here 53008A.330
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00422 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
415
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0331 here 53008A.331
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00423 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
416
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0332 here 53008A.332
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00424 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
417
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0333 here 53008A.333
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00425 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
418
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0334 here 53008A.334
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00426 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
419
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0335 here 53008A.335
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00427 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
420
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0336 here 53008A.336
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00428 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
421
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0337 here 53008A.337
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00429 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
422
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0338 here 53008A.338
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00430 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
423
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0339 here 53008A.339
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00431 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
424
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0340 here 53008A.340
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00432 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
425
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0341 here 53008A.341
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00433 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
426
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0342 here 53008A.342
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00434 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
427
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0343 here 53008A.343
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00435 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
428
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0344 here 53008A.344
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00436 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
429
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0345 here 53008A.345
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00437 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
430
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0346 here 53008A.346
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00438 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
431
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0347 here 53008A.347
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00439 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
432
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0348 here 53008A.348
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00440 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
433
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0349 here 53008A.349
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00441 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
434
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0350 here 53008A.350
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00442 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
435
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0351 here 53008A.351
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00443 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
436
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0352 here 53008A.352
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00444 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
437
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0353 here 53008A.353
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00445 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
438
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0354 here 53008A.354
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00446 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
439
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0355 here 53008A.355
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00447 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
440
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0356 here 53008A.356
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00448 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
441
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0357 here 53008A.357
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00449 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
442
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0358 here 53008A.358
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00450 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
443
Mr. CAREY. So, I am going to go into—I am going to kind of go
through my question, lay it out.
Last February the Administration took unilateral action to sweep
suspected fraud under the rug, releasing guidance to allow states
to waive large numbers of suspicious claims and forgo recovery and
restitution for the taxpayers. Then, in March, DoL reported that
the states identified $35.1 billion in overpayments made in the UI
programs during the first seven quarters of the pandemic.
So after first allowing the states to waive the overpayments, and
only subsequently identifying the extent of the overpayments, DoL
relented last July and sent $250 million to the states for reporting
and detection and recovery of the overpayments. While DoL is not
here to address these contrary actions, perhaps DoL OIG can shed
some light on this.
So, with that, Mr. Turner, I do believe you were in the military
for a number of years.
Mr. TURNER. Yes, I was.
Mr. CAREY. I want to thank you for your service. So, Mr. Tur-
ner, even if DoL told states they could not waive fraudulent pay-
ments, how are we to know what—some claims involved in those
waivers were not fraud, if the states don’t have to look into them
at all?
Mr. TURNER. Well, you have kind of taken the OIG position, be-
cause you—we actually believe that you do have to do that. And
part of our work this year and this spring is going to take a look
at that.
Mr. CAREY. Wonderful. And to that, are you investigating the
impact of this guidance on your ability to recover fraudulent pay-
ments?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, we are.
Mr. CAREY. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, gentleman. And last, but cer-
tainly not least, the gentleman from California, Mr. Panetta.
Mr. PANETTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Gentlemen, I will try to be quick.
Obviously, starting with the CARES Act, Congress acted with
speed and bipartisanship to help people who lost their livelihoods,
who lost money, who lost their jobs. We provided billions for unem-
ployment insurance that worked, that helped people, that actually
prevented hardship for millions, including in my district, the 19th
congressional in California.
Now, unfortunately, as we have heard over and over, and as we
know well, there was fraud. And as a former prosecutor, I am well
aware of people who try to pull one over on the Federal Govern-
ment and on the government. And yes, we should hold them ac-
countable to the fullest extent of the law, as we have been hearing
throughout today’s hearing.
But now, as a Federal representative, I get to look forward. And
basically, we get to create laws, or provide funding to help elimi-
nate—to help prevent fraud. That is why, through the American
Rescue Plan, we in Congress provided that type of significant fund-
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
ing for oversight and improvements for our unemployment insur-
ance systems.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00451 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
444
Now, Mr. Horowitz, earlier I think you mentioned, you know,
that is exactly what we are doing and have been doing right now.
And so, my question to you is did that funding help crack down on
fraud during the pandemic, and will it help states in the future
protect from fraud?
Mr. HOROWITZ. So, the funding did help states make a start in
this effort. I think there is more that needs to be done, as GAO has
reported on and DoL OIG has reported on.
But the extent to which you modernize and improve the systems,
you not only reduce the rate of fraud, but you improve the benefit,
you improve the delivery of benefits to people who are entitled to
get the benefits.
Mr. PANETTA. Right. Do you have many examples of states that
are modernizing, with this funding, their unemployment systems?
And are there any lessons learned, looking at any particular
states?
Mr. HOROWITZ. There are multiple states, actually, that are
moving forward. So, I am not going to single any out, but they are
working through their national association to do that.
And I would say the key movement forward is modernizing their
systems and taking steps to do identity verification. So, there is a
variety of tools being tested in—among the states. But that, to me,
from what I have seen so far—not just, by the way, with unemploy-
ment insurance, with SBA as well, and other Federal programs—
the need to put in place identity verification.
Mr. PANETTA. Understood. And then just let me throw this out
there. Would it help if there was a national standard for unemploy-
ment systems when it comes to maybe—and I think you guys have
mentioned this—technology, data gathering, or—in order to help
states set up systems for employing unemployment insurance?
Mr. HOROWITZ. You know, I think that is an excellent question,
Congressman, and a key question for Congress. And—because we
have largely built an unemployment insurance system that is man-
aged effectively at the state level, with 54 entities, the 50 states,
D.C. and territories.
And the question is, how much do you want to centralize it? How
much do you want to give authority to the Labor Department to
manage those systems? And I know GAO has written on that and
spoken about that, as well. It is a policy question, really, for the
Congress to consider.
Mr. PANETTA. Mr. Dodaro.
Mr. DODARO. I think it would be a good idea to have some min-
imum national standards. You don’t want to hamstring the states
from being innovative and trying different approaches, because
that could be beneficial.
But you have to have some minimum standards that are in
place, particularly for IT systems, particularly if you want those
systems to be able to talk one another, and to have—be able to
cross-match. As we have been—pointed out this morning, if some-
body files a claim, you know, in one state, they can file in all the
other states, and nobody would know the difference, because there
is no way to cross-compare.
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
There ought to be cross-comparisons against incarcerated people,
as well. There is a system that is kept for that, as well.
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00452 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
445
Unless there are standards, you are not ever going to have the
optimum IT system network, nationally, to deal with a global prob-
lem like we had before.
Mr. PANETTA. Great. Mr. Turner, anything on a national stand-
ard?
Mr. TURNER. The only thing that I could say to add is that I
think there needs to be some kind of central database that the OIG
has direct access to, as well as the Department and the States.
Mr. PANETTA. Great, great. Thank you, gentlemen.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative.
I would like to thank our witnesses for being here the whole
time, and for the great discussion.
Please be advised that members have two weeks to submit writ-
ten questions to be answered later in writing. Those questions and
your answers will be made part of the formal hearing record.
With that, the committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 2:08 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00453 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
446
MEMBER QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00454 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
447
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0362 here 53008A.362
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00455 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
448
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0363 here 53008A.363
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00456 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
449
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0364 here 53008A.364
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00457 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
450
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0365 here 53008A.365
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00458 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
451
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0359 here 53008A.359
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00459 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
452
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0360 here 53008A.360
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00460 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
453
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0361 here 53008A.361
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00461 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
454
PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00462 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
455
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0366 here 53008A.366
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00463 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
456
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0367 here 53008A.367
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00464 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
457
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0368 here 53008A.368
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00465 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
458
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0369 here 53008A.369
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00466 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
459
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0370 here 53008A.370
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00467 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
460
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0371 here 53008A.371
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00468 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
461
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0372 here 53008A.372
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00469 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
462
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0373 here 53008A.373
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00470 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
463
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0374 here 53008A.374
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00471 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
464
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0375 here 53008A.375
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00472 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
465
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0376 here 53008A.376
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00473 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
466
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0377 here 53008A.377
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00474 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
467
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0378 here 53008A.378
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00475 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
468
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0379 here 53008A.379
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00476 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
469
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0380 here 53008A.380
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00477 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
470
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0381 here 53008A.381
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00478 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
471
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0382 here 53008A.382
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00479 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
472
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0383 here 53008A.383
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00480 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
473
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0384 here 53008A.384
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00481 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
474
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0385 here 53008A.385
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00482 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
475
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0386 here 53008A.386
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00483 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
476
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0387 here 53008A.387
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00484 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
477
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0388 here 53008A.388
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00485 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
478
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0389 here 53008A.389
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00486 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
479
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0390 here 53008A.390
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00487 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
480
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0391 here 53008A.391
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00488 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
481
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0392 here 53008A.392
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00489 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
482
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0393 here 53008A.393
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00490 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
483
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0394 here 53008A.394
VerDate Sep 11 2014 21:35 Feb 10, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00491 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
484
ddrumheller on DSK120RN23PROD with REPORTS
Insert offset folio 0395 here 53008A.395
VerDate Sep 11 2014 05:09 Feb 16, 2024 Jkt 053008 PO 00000 Frm 00492 Fmt 6602 Sfmt 6602 E:\HR\OC\A008.XXX A008
File and source
- File
- CHRG-118hhrg53008.pdf
- Size
- 152,905,623 bytes
- SHA-256
- 50200a8fdd8434f7608eb20ee098e6cc7582b8172f31da59cf8cb963f48ebdec
- Our copy
- CHRG-118hhrg53008.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov