Hope on the Horizon: Prioritizing Small Business Growth in the 119th Congress (House Small Business Committee hearing, February 5, 2025)

Summary

Transcript of a February 5, 2025 House Small Business Committee hearing, Small Business Committee Document Number 119-001, on small business priorities for the 119th Congress. Chairman Roger Williams and Ranking Member Nydia Velázquez gave opening statements. Witnesses were Karl Hutter of Click Bond in Carson City, Nevada, Bill New of New Industries in Morgan City, Louisiana, Alice Frazier of Bank of Charles Town and Molly Moon Neitzel of Molly Moon's Homemade Ice Cream in Seattle. Added material came from Associated Builders and Contractors, the Defense Credit Union Council, the Small Business Investor Alliance, PIIE and a Canada Prime Minister document.

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“Hope on the Horizon: Prioritizing Small Business Growth in the 119th Congress (House Small Business Committee hearing, February 5, 2025).” Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/hope-on-the-horizon-prioritizing-small-business-growth-in-the-119th-co-d937860497/, SHA-256 1f54ed3ddd758fff8857a8103c3f7a65d979f921196a129fe261b48ed97c94f5.

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HOPE ON THE HORIZON: PRIORITIZING SMALL
BUSINESS GROWTH IN THE 119TH CONGRESS

HEARING
BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION

HEARING HELD
FEBRUARY 5, 2025

Small Business Committee Document Number 119–001
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov

U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
58–532 WASHINGTON : 2025

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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
NICK LALOTA, New York
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
TONY WIED, Wisconsin
ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
BRIAN JACK, Georgia
TROY DOWNING, Montana
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
GIL CISNEROS, California
KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
GEORGE LATIMER, New York
DEREK TRAN, California
LATEEFAH SIMON, California
JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
HERB CONWAY, New Jersey
MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire

LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director

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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................ 1
Hon. Nydia Velázquez ............................................................................................. 2

WITNESSES
Mr. Karl Hutter, Chief Executive Officer, Click Bond, Inc., Carson City,
NV ......................................................................................................................... 5
Mr. Bill New, President and Owner, New Industries, Morgan City, LA ............ 7
Ms. Alice Frazier, President and Chief Executive Officer, Bank of Charles
Town, Charles Town, WV .................................................................................... 8
Ms. Molly Moon Neitzel, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Molly Moon’s
Homemade Ice Cream, Seattle, WA ................................................................... 10

APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. Karl Hutter, Chief Executive Officer, Click Bond, Inc., Carson City,
NV .................................................................................................................. 48
Mr. Bill New, President and Owner, New Industries, Morgan City, LA ..... 58
Ms. Alice Frazier, President and Chief Executive Officer, Bank of Charles
Town, Charles Town, WV ............................................................................. 61
Ms. Molly Moon Neitzel, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Molly
Moon’s Homemade Ice Cream, Seattle, WA ............................................... 74
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC) ................................................... 76
Canada Prime Minister Document ................................................................. 78
Defense Credit Union Council (DCUC) .......................................................... 79
PIIE Document ................................................................................................. 81
Small Business Investor Alliance (SBIA) ....................................................... 96

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HOPE ON THE HORIZON: PRIORITIZING
SMALL BUSINESS GROWTH IN THE 119TH
CONGRESS

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 2025

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:01 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
man of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van Duyne,
Ellzey, Alford, LaLota, Finstad, Wied, Bresnahan, Jack, Downing,
King-Hinds, Velázquez, McGarvey, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros,
Morrison, Latimer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, Conaway, and
Goodlander.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to recognize
Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri to lead us in the pledge
and the prayer.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you.
Well, God, we are just so thankful to be here today as a Com-
mittee to just try to make America better through small business.
I thank you for the witnesses who have come here today, paid
their own way to be here, to testify and to take questions.
God, let us operate in a manner of civility and love.
And I just appreciate all the Members of this Committee and the
Ranking Member and the Chair for their dedication.
Just bless us, bless our time together, for the betterment for the
United States of America.
Through Jesus Christ, I pray.
Amen.
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, in-
divisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Good morning, everyone, and I want to
now call the Committee on Small Business to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of
the Committee at any time.
I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
Welcome to the first Committee on Small Business hearing of the
119th Congress.
I want to extend my gratitude to our witnesses for being here
also today. And I know many of you traveled to share your experi-
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ences with us and your perspectives, and we deeply value your
time and your voice.
The Committee on Small Business is proud to represent the
hardworking men and women of Main Street America here in
Washington. Our mission today and every day is to listen, learn,
and better understand the challenges and the opportunities impact-
ing the American people, particularly those who build and sustain
small businesses nationwide.
Small-business owners are not just entrepreneurs; they are job
creators, community leaders, and the backbone of economic oppor-
tunity for millions of Americans. Small-business ownership reflects
the very essence of the American Dream—the opportunity for any
person, from any background, to take a risk, work hard, and build
a better future for themselves and their families.
Our economy depends on small businesses and the workers they
employ. From local manufacturers to retail employees, service
workers and bankers, they are the heartbeat of our economy, shap-
ing our communities through their dedication, creativity, and resil-
ience.
Over the past 4 years, Main Street America has faced historic
challenges—stifling regulations, record-breaking inflation, supply-
chain disruptions, high interest rates, and a national labor short-
age. Despite these challenges, the men and women of main street
have proven time and time again their strength and ability to
adapt. These individuals embody the grit, the innovation, and per-
severance that make the nation great.
So this Congress, alongside President Trump, will once again
prioritize policies that support Main Street America, strengthen
economic opportunity, and create an environment where small
businesses can grow and create jobs.
Today, we celebrate the critical role each small business plays in
building and sustaining their communities. We look forward to
hearing from our witnesses on how increased small-business opti-
mism and a promising economic landscape will help Main Street
America.
There is hope on the horizon for small businesses, thanks to
President Trump’s pro-business commitment to lowering taxes and
cutting regulations. It is time to turn the page on the past 4 years
and focus on the future for Main Street America under President
Trump.
I wanted this hearing to be the first of the 119th Congress so we
could shine a light on the great contributions and sacrifices of Main
Street America—those who dedicate their days, their resources,
and lives to make our nation strong.
Before we proceed, I would like to extend a warm welcome to the
new Members joining the Committee. We are thrilled to have you
as part of our team and look forward to working with you this Con-
gress. As Chairman, I am eager to work alongside all of you as we
help shape policies that put the needs of Main Street America first.
Now, with that, I will yield to our distinguished and my friend,
the Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velázquez.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Again, I want to express our condolences to you. We have you and
your family in our thoughts and prayers.

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Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for
holding this important hearing.
And thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
In just 4 short years, 22 million Americans took the leap of faith
and started a small business—a record high for a single Presi-
dential term. Our nation saw an unprecedented small-business
boom and economic comeback in the face of an equally unprece-
dented global pandemic and recession.
Everyday Americans and entrepreneurs receive essential invest-
ments from the American Rescue Plan Act, Bipartisan Infrastruc-
ture Law, CHIPS and Science Act, and Inflation Redaction Act—
historic victories that laid a strong foundation for our economic re-
covery. The data shows that this foundation is fruitful. Annual in-
flation is at 2.7 percent, and real GDP growth has accelerated to
3.1 percent in the last quarter.
Mr. Chairman, small business is not a Democratic or Republican
issue; it is an American issue. While we will work with our Repub-
lican counterparts to find common ground and do right by Amer-
ica’s main streets, we will never weaken our commitment to make
life better for our nation’s small-business owners.
From the tech company that started as an idea in a garage to
more established main street retailers or the local restaurant, all
play an important role in generating employment opportunities for
our communities, whether they be in rural or urban America.
That is the beauty of America. Anyone can have a dream and
make it a reality and that is what millions of entrepreneurs in this
country have done.
Many couldn’t have done it without the assistance of one of the
SBA’s programs. From lending to mentoring to marketing, the SBA
has remained a critical resource to those with a good idea and em-
ployers hoping to expand.
There is more that this committee can do to continue our efforts
to grow the small-business economy, like investing in childcare,
healthcare, and developing the next generation of workers.
That is why today’s hearing is so timely. It will allow us to gain
valuable perspectives on how to best help entrepreneurs continue
to do what they do best—invest in themselves, their communities,
and their workers.
While we may not always agree with each other on the best path
forward, it is my hope that we will work together for the better-
ment of small employers.
Today, we are joined by a distinguished panel of witnesses. This
hearing is an opportunity to listen to their insights into the chal-
lenges facing small businesses and, specifically, how Congress can
prioritize their needs. I look forward to hearing the witnesses’ testi-
mony.
And, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
And now I will introduce our witnesses.
Our first witness here with us today is Mr. Karl Hutter. Mr.
Hutter is the CEO of Click Bond, Inc., located in Carson City, Ne-
vada. Mr. Hutter joined Click Bond in 2000 and has held various
positions within the company, including the vice president of sales

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and marketing, chief operating officer, chief financial officer also.
Before leading the sales team, Mr. Hutter directed the company’s
business development and applications engineering efforts across
the Asia-Pacific region.
Mr. Hutter is a certified airline transport pilot and a passionate
advocate for general aviation and the aerospace industry as well as
for American manufacturing. He also serves several industry asso-
ciations, such as the Aerospace Industries Association Board of
Governors, the National Association of Manufacturers, and the
General Aviation Manufacturers Association.
Mr. Hutter holds a Bachelor of Science degree in systems engi-
neering and operations management from the School of Engineer-
ing and Applied Science at Wharton Business School of the Univer-
sity of Pennsylvania. He also is a graduate of Penn’s Jerome Fisher
Management and Technology Program.
So thank you for joining us here today.
Our next witness is Mr. Bill New. Mr. New is the founder,
owner, and president of New Industries, LLC, located in Morgan
City, Louisiana. Mr. New has led the company since its founding
in 1985. Prior to that, he worked as a structural and project engi-
neer for Mobil Exploration and Production and Mobil Research and
Development.
Mr. New is an active volunteer, having served as president of the
Foundation for the Louisiana School for Math, Science, and the
Arts and currently as Co-Chairman of the Capital Campaign. He
also has been a Board Member of the Catholic Foundation of South
Louisiana and a longtime leader in the Boy Scouts of America,
where he earned the rank of Eagle Scout in 1973.
Mr. New currently resides in Louisiana with his family. Mr. New
holds a Bachelor of Science in ocean engineering from Florida At-
lantic University and completed the Owner/President Management
Program at Harvard Business School.
So thank you for being here today, Mr. New.
Our next witness is Ms. Alice Frazier. Ms. Frazier is president
and CEO of Potomac Bancshares and Bank of Charles Town, lo-
cated in Charles Town, West Virginia. Ms. Frazier has more than
32 years of banking experience with Cardinal Financial Corpora-
tion, BB&T, and Middleburg Financial Corporation. Prior to that,
she worked for 4 years in public accounting with national and re-
gional firms.
Ms. Frazier is currently serving as Vice Chairman of the Inde-
pendent Community Bankers of America and has previously served
as their Executive Committee as secretary. She also serves on the
Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond Board and is a past Chairman
of the Virginia Association of Community Banks.
Ms. Frazier has a Bachelor of Science degree from Radford Uni-
versity and is a graduate of the Stonier Graduate School of Bank-
ing and the USC Graduate School of Bank Investing.
Thank you for joining us today, again. And I look forward to
hearing from all of you.
And now I recognize the Ranking Member from New York, Ms.
Velázquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing before us
today.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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I would like to welcome Ms. Molly Moon Neitzel, the founder and
CEO of Molly Moon’s Homemade Ice Cream, in the Seattle region.
Molly Moon’s opened in 2008 when Ms. Neitzel left her career as
a political consultant and founder of the nonprofit Music for Amer-
ica to follow her dreams and her sweet tooth as a main street busi-
nesswoman. Now, Molly Moon’s has nine locations, $12 million in
revenue, accolades in national publications, and a cult following in
the Seattle area.
Ms. Neitzel is also a founding Member of Main Street Alliance,
a small-business coalition advocating for pro-small-business poli-
cies, including healthcare, childcare investment, paid family and
medical leave, women’s entrepreneurship promotion, and capital
access, among others.
Ms. Neitzel holds a bachelor’s degree in journalism from the Uni-
versity of Montana.
Welcome, and thank you for testifying today.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
And we appreciate all of you being here today, again.
And so, before recognizing the witnesses, I would like to remind
them—we have some rules around here—that oral testimony is re-
stricted to 5 minutes in length. If you get over that, you will hear
a little of this—[gavel tapping]—and that means that your time is
up. And if you see the light turn red in front of you, it means your
5 minutes has concluded and you should wrap up your testimony.
So, with that in mind, I now recognize Mr. Hutter for his 5-
minute opening remarks.
STATEMENTS OF KARL HUTTER, CEO, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF-
FICER, CLICK BOND, INC., ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL AS-
SOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS; BILL NEW, PRESIDENT
AND OWNER, NEW INDUSTRIES, ON BEHALF OF THE NA-
TIONAL OCEAN INDUSTRIES ASSOCIATION; ALICE FRAZIER,
PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, BANK OF
CHARLES TOWN, ON BEHALF OF THE INDEPENDENT COM-
MUNITY BANKERS ASSOCIATION; AND MOLLY MOON
NEITZEL, FOUNDER AND CEO, MOLLY MOON’S HOMEMADE
ICE CREAM, ON BEHALF OF THE MAIN STREET ALLIANCE

STATEMENT OF KARL HUTTER
Mr. HUTTER. Good morning, Chairman Williams, Ranking
Member Velázquez, and Members of the Committee. My name is
Karl Hutter, and I am the CEO of Click Bond, an engineered prod-
ucts company in Carson City, Nevada.
And Click Bond is a family business and one very much built on
innovation. My parents founded the company in 1987, combining
my dad’s inventive genius with my mom’s manufacturing back-
ground and business acumen. And today our adhesive-bonded fas-
teners are used in aviation, marine, defense, industrial settings
around the world and even beyond, in space. And like many small
and medium manufacturers, we are an integral part of the manu-
facturing supply chain and, in our case, of the nation’s defense in-
dustrial base.
However, companies like Click Bond face significant challenges,
often stemming from Washington itself. American businesses now

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shoulder a staggering $3 trillion annually in regulatory costs, dis-
proportionately impacting manufacturers.
Unfortunately, small companies get hit twice—first with unwork-
able regulations that apply to us directly and then, as well, with
compliance and reporting requirements that larger firms are forced
to pass down.
Well, fortunately, Congress and the Trump administration do
have the opportunity to reverse course. You can do that with com-
monsense reforms such as: unwinding outdated chemicals reporting
requirements that force us to look backwards in time and deep into
our supply chains; and preventing unnecessary EPA roadblocks in
State and local permitting; and in rolling back costly energy and
labor mandates. These policies would go a long way toward lifting
barriers on manufacturers and their growth.
And, additionally, comprehensive permitting reform must be a
priority. A predictable, streamlined permitting process will unlock
manufacturing growth and drive new job-creating investments
across this country.
So, just as with regulations, our industry is facing significant un-
certainty, cost, and burden thanks to expiring tax policies. To say
the least, 2017 tax reform was rocket fuel for Click Bond. The new
21-percent corporate tax rate allowed us to raise wages for our pro-
duction employees, invest in capital equipment, strengthen our em-
ployee tuition support program, and accelerate the timeline for con-
structing a new facility. The new 20-percent pass-through deduc-
tion likewise empowered our suppliers and partners to reinvest in
their businesses, readying them to support our growth.
But the key tax provisions began expiring in 2022 and 2023, and
this is already harming manufacturers. It is now more expensive
for Click Bond to conduct R&D, the very lifeblood of both our prod-
uct and our process innovation. It is more expensive for us to pur-
chase capital equipment, the very tools that will unleash the pro-
ductivity of our team. And it is more expensive for us to finance
job-creating investments, such as that state-of-the-art sustainable
manufacturing facility.
And more tax hikes are looming at the end of this year, including
the halving of the estate tax exemption, which will force many fam-
ily businesses to hold back on investments or contemplate selling
pieces of their company to satisfy an unjust tax bill.
Recent National Association of Manufacturers research found
that failing to extend pro-manufacturing tax policies could cost the
U.S. nearly 6 million jobs and $1 trillion in lost GDP. And that is
an outcome, Mr. Chairman, that we can’t afford. If Congress wants
to preserve American innovation, ingenuity, and competitiveness,
inaction is simply not an option.
So, look, despite these challenges, I want to remain very opti-
mistic, as I am, about the future of Click Bond and manufacturing
in the United States, particularly for our small businesses. At Click
Bond, we are ready to seize this moment, translating the pace of
innovation and the strong global demand for aerospace products
into job growth and export opportunities. The same story holds true
for the small and medium manufacturers across our supply chain.
As a family business, we are ready to invest—and to reinvest—
in growth, R&D, and capital equipment to generate excellent ca-

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reers that lift our communities, while deploying modern, sustain-
able manufacturing processes.
And, finally, as a Member of our nation’s defense industrial base,
we are proud to do this work in service of strengthening our coun-
try’s security and its readiness.
Congress has a critical opportunity to right-size the regulatory
landscape, put an end to permitting delays, and protect manufac-
turers from devastating tax increases. I encourage you to seize this
opportunity, empower manufacturers, and strengthen America. Be-
cause when manufacturing wins, America wins.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much, Mr. Hutter. Right
on time. Thank you.
And now I recognize Mr. New for your 5-minute opening re-
marks.

STATEMENT OF BILL NEW
Mr. NEW. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member
Velázquez, and Members of the Committee. I appreciate the oppor-
tunity to testify today.
This is my first time testifying in front of a congressional com-
mittee, so I may stumble a little bit. Public speaking is not one of
my strong points.
But I am Bill New. I am the founder and the owner and the
president of New Industries. We are a south-Louisiana-based steel
fabricator. We build process equipment for the oil and gas industry,
subsea equipment for producing in deepwater. We also build pres-
sure vessels and things used in process plants, refineries, petro-
chemical. And we also build some agricultural processing equip-
ment as well. So, basically, we cut, bend, and weld the steel.
And, you know, I have been at it—I started the company in 1985,
quit my job working for an oil company. I was 28 years old. As
most of us are when we are 28 years old, we think we are bullet-
proof and we know everything. About 2 years later, I figured out
I didn’t know anything. But, to that point, it was too late, so—so,
been at it ever since.
You know, I think a big misconception about the oil and gas in-
dustry for most people, the general public certainly, is that, when
they think of oil and gas, they think of the Chevrons and the
Exxons and the Shells and the BPs, but, for all those great big
companies—and they are all customers of mine—you know, there
are a whole lot of companies like New Industries, you know, small
businesses that fabricate, that build equipment, that provide serv-
ices both on shore and offshore. And that is really the heart of the
oil and gas industry, is those small businesses that make it all hap-
pen.
The oil companies, comparatively, don’t actually employ that
many people. They spend the money, but sometimes they are al-
most more like bankers than actually operators.
And so it is very important to, you know, encourage oil and gas.
You know, we have been through a period over the last 4 years of
issues with permitting, with lease sales. And, already, the new ad-
ministration has already turned some of those things around.

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But it just takes time, you know. And the projects typically—a
lot of projects we work on have horizons of 5 and 10 years from
the time they discover—even before they discover, drill the first
well, until it is on production, and spend billions of dollars. And if
we don’t have consistency in leasing and consistency in regulation,
those projects never get started.
Because if you award a lease to one of the major oil companies
today in deepwater, it will be at least probably 3 years before they
actually drill a well, because there is a lot of preliminary work to
be done. And then, once that well is drilled, assuming that it is a
discovery, then it will be several more years getting it developed,
building the equipment, building the facility. And so that consist-
ency of regulation is so important to the industry and certainly im-
portant to New Industries.
Same thing with tax policy, you know. We certainly took advan-
tage of the accelerated depreciation when that was there. We spent
a lot of—invested a lot of money in equipment, big equipment—
cranes, plate rolls, you know, big pieces of machinery. But it is a
lot easier to pay for them when I can deduct the full cost of depre-
ciation in the first year. It certainly helps pay for them.
So I urge you to just continue along this path. And I am looking
forward to the next 4 years. Our customers are much more opti-
mistic since the election. Projects that had been on hold, I hear,
now suddenly we are talking about moving forward.
And so, you know, we are a project-based business. If our cus-
tomers are not drilling new wells, developing new facilities, build-
ing new process plants, adding on to process plants, there is no
work for us. You know, I am not like Walmart; I can’t generate in-
cremental sales with price. I can’t put welders on sale this week
and sell any more. I mean, if my customers need one, you know,
they will buy it; if they don’t need it, it doesn’t matter what my
price is.
And so we are looking forward to the next 4 years. I think it is
a pretty exciting time to be in our industry.
Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
I now recognize Ms. Frazier for her 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF ALICE FRAZIER
Ms. FRAZIER. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking
Member Velázquez and Members of this Committee.
I am Alice Frazier, CEO of Bank of Charles Town, a 154-year-
old community bank with $877 million in assets, serving markets
West Virginia, Maryland, and Virginia.
I testify today on behalf of the Independent Community Bankers
of America, where I am Vice Chairman.
This hearing is well-timed for the new Congress and administra-
tion, which I can assure you has brought new hope for the commu-
nities I serve. The optimism is unmistakable.
Small-business loans are almost 90 percent of our portfolio. And,
in aggregate, community banks extend a disproportionate number
of small-business loans, especially in smaller markets. We serve
small businesses with customized products and personalized serv-
ices that can only be provided by locally-based, on-the-ground lend-

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ers. We lend based on firsthand knowledge of our customers and
our communities. That is what sets us apart from larger, out-of-
market competitors.
And, importantly, my bank is a small business, as defined by the
SBA, and within the jurisdiction of this Committee. We are a small
business helping small businesses. The same is true of thousands
of community banks, many of which are family-owned just like the
local coffee shop on main street.
Many community banks, like my bank, are also SBA lenders, and
we share with this Committee a commitment to protecting the in-
tegrity of the SBA guaranteed loan programs with stability in its
products and services.
Today, I want to talk about the remarkable resilience and the
new optimism I am seeing in our markets and focus on a couple
of proposals from our agenda for the new Congress, which is at-
tached to my written statement.
You see, the phones are ringing again with small businesses in
my footprint eager to expand with community-bank credit. My
written statement contains a compelling story of a restaurant-sup-
ply company seeking credit to meet demand from new and upgrad-
ing restaurants. It is an example of growth based upon business
optimism.
And our small-business lending capacity could be further en-
hanced by regulatory and tax relief. Today’s market optimism is
based upon an expectation of new policies that will spur economic
growth and job creation. It is our job to deliver on that expectation.
Top of mind for community banks and small-business borrowers
is the destructive impact of Section 1071 of Dodd-Frank Act, which
requires community banks to collect granular and invasive data on
small-business loan applicants.
Small-business lending is not and should not be a commodity.
Underwriting is based on numerous borrower characteristics and
market variables, and loans are typically customized to give bor-
rowers the best chance of success. The data collected under 1071
will not reflect the full scope of underwriting and may suggest dis-
crimination where none exists.
Bank examiners are really best positioned to make this judgment
in the application of fair lending and CRA laws. Section 1071 is
simply the wrong tool for this job.
Lenders will respond by standardizing loan features to protect
themselves from charges of discrimination. But please keep in
mind, minority and women borrowers, whom this rule is supposed
to help, often benefit from that customized lending.
With the new Congress and administration, you have an oppor-
tunity to revisit and this time fully repeal Section 1071. ICBA
strongly supports and thanks Chairman Williams for his 1071 Re-
peal to Protect Small Business Lending Act. We ask Members of
this Committee to support this critical bill.
A few other ICBA priorities for this Congress include updating
regulatory thresholds so that community banks are not subject to
regulations designed for the largest of banks. And doing so will cre-
ate regulatory relief that will allow us to better serve our cus-
tomers.

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And in the coming tax debate, we urge permanent extension of
the deduction for pass-through business income under Section
199A. The loss of this deduction would amount to a steep tax in-
crease for the vast majority of small businesses, including nearly
1,500 Subchapter S community banks.
Thank you for allowing the community-bank perspective, and I
am happy to answer any questions you may have.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And I now recognize Ms. Moon Neitzel.
And I heard, when the Ranking Member introduced you, ‘‘$12
million worth of ice cream.’’ That is a lot of ice cream. So I am anx-
ious to hear about that. Okay.
STATEMENT OF MOLLY MOON NEITZEL
Ms. NEITZEL. Thank you, Chairman.
Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velázquez, and Members
of the Committee, I am honored to be here today.
My name is Molly Moon Neitzel, CEO of Molly Moon’s Home-
made Ice Cream in Washington State. I am also a founding Mem-
ber of the Main Street Alliance, which represents over 30,000 small
businesses nationwide, and a proud Member of MomsRising.
At Molly Moon’s, we employ about 200 people across 9 ice cream
shops, and our products are sold across our region. Next week, we
will begin construction on three more locations, in part funded by
SBA loans. We are a growing, thriving business.
Today, we have been asked to highlight some of the real chal-
lenges facing small businesses and what you all can do to improve
the health of the small-business economy.
But the title of this hearing, ‘‘Hope on the Horizon,’’ and this
Committee’s statement that President Trump’s policies put Amer-
ica first are at odds with the reality that the President’s current
and proposed actions are gutting the engine of the American econ-
omy—main street businesses.
His policies have disadvantaged small businesses against our
larger competitors in the Tax Code and created instability for the
nation’s biggest and best job creators. Small businesses created 65
percent of all new jobs in the past decade. We are the foundation
of the U.S. economy.
But there are concrete ways this Committee can support Main
Street America.
First, our Tax Code isn’t working for main street businesses. We
need to fix the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act to target 199A deduction re-
lief to smaller operators, not just big corporations. And the IRS
must be fully funded, not gutted, in order to enforce the law and
ensure the giant companies and the wealthy people who run them
pay their fair share.
Second, let’s use the revenue from fair enforcement of the Tax
Code to invest in a national childcare system, paid family and med-
ical leave, and affordable healthcare.
At Molly Moon’s, we invest $1,000 per month toward childcare
for each employee’s child, and the returns have been tremendous.
Since launching this program, we have seen a rise in parents able
to work full-time and apply for promotions into management be-
cause they can now afford the childcare to work during our busiest

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hours. We have even had babies brought into this world because
women who worked for us realized they could afford to grow their
families with reduced childcare costs factored in.
The ROI on this workforce stabilization has been huge—and the
babies are real cute—but, as much as I love leading on this issue,
we do it because Congress has failed to create a childcare infra-
structure that supports our nation’s workforce.
Third, every small-business owner I know and every business in
America is incredibly concerned about a global trade war and the
general chaos-creation policies we have seen in the federal govern-
ment in the last few weeks. Being so worried about what is coming
next and trying to safeguard against it has negative impacts on our
operations, profits, and communities.
Small businesses depend on each other and many other busi-
nesses around the world. We depend on a functional Small Busi-
ness Administration and sound economic policies.
But any tariffs—and even the threats of them—will increase
costs, raising prices even higher for families, raising inflation
again. This is the opposite of President Trump’s and many Repub-
licans’ campaign promises to America.
As just one example, a quarter of all the produce consumed in
the U.S. is grown in Mexico, and an ice cream shop, restaurant, or
grocery store will be devastated by a 25-percent tax on those fruit
and vegetable costs.
Extrapolate that one example over all small businesses, most of
whom operate in the global economy for ingredients, parts, or their
whole product, and we are driving toward recession.
We don’t need a global trade war to destabilize our economy or
more tax cuts for the biggest corporations. We need a fair Tax
Code, stable economic policies, and a healthy, available workforce
so that main street and small businesses can thrive. With your
help, I hope a bright future for small business is possible.
Thank you, and I am happy to answer any questions from the
Committee.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
We will now move to the Member questions under the 5-minute
rule, and I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Ms. Frazier, small businesses have faced unprecedented eco-
nomic challenges, such as inflation and rising interest rates, which
threaten their ability to access capital. As you all well know, access
to capital is essential to any growing, aspiring business.
Yet, instead of helping Main Street America, under the Biden ad-
ministration, the CFPB implemented the 1071 rule, which you
mentioned, which put an even heavier burden on small financial
institutions that were struggling to keep up with rising interest
rates.
So I recently introduced the 1071 Repeal to Protect Small Busi-
ness Lending Act, which would immediately repeal CFPB’s small-
business-killing rule.
How would an immediate repeal of the 1071 rule ensure that
community banks can continue providing affordable lending options
to small-business owners?
Ms. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can give you an ex-
ample of the impact.

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There are over 81 different data decision points that we would
need to collect and decide upon in evaluating or just taking the ap-
plication. And when I think about my bank and the number of
loans that were small businesses in the past 2 years, it was over
237 loans, for $140 million. Multiply that, each one, by 81 points
that we need to first make a decision upon and collect and then re-
port upon.
And so the only way that that could be possible is to continue
to evaluate technology and use of AI, which then doesn’t focus us
on the conversations or building the relationships or giving the ad-
vice and counsel many small businesses need.
So I hope those give you some illustrations of what that impact
would do for us.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Absolutely.
Mr. New, in the final days as President, President Biden sought
to ban offshore oil and gas leases in vast offshore areas. If not for
President Trump issuing several executive orders on his first day
in office to repeal these efforts, the ban would have covered more
than 625 million acres, representing the largest withdrawal of off-
shore oil and gas leases in U.S. history.
So how will President Trump’s actions help your industry thrive
and meet the demands of the offshore oil and gas sector?
Mr. NEW. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You know, it is really about having access to lands to drill. Un-
like onshore, where a lot of the oil and gas production is on private
land, in the federal offshore waters it is all federal lands. So it de-
pends on the federal government to basically be the landowner, the
judge, the jury, and the executioner. So, when there are not leases
available, my customers don’t have opportunities to drill.
And, you know, I say it is a pipeline. So it is not just the lease
today. Because if you lease today, it is going to be—you know, it
may be 10 years before there is production. But there are a lot of
activities that have to go on to get to that stage. And if we are not
leasing today, we are not going to have those activities over the
next 10 years and that production.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Great.
I have a limited amount of time, so, Mr. Hutter, let me just ask
you a short question here. Can you explain how dangerous and
overbearing regulations have impacted your business?
Mr. HUTTER. So I think that one of the things to always re-
member for our smaller businesses particularly is, certainty goes a
long, long way. And while, I think, you know, we don’t argue
against regulations that make the rules clear and, you know, work
toward goals of making our people safer and the impacts that we
make on our communities only positive ones, I would say, gen-
erally, regulations need to be thought of in terms of their clarity,
in terms of their workability, and in terms of making sure we don’t
put in constraints on things that get out over the skis of science.
And let me explain real quickly on that one. When it comes to
things like materials—PFAS restrictions, for example, I think is a
good one—there are things in our defense supply chain that simply
don’t have substitutes. In the healthcare sector, it would be similar
to the ethylene oxide restrictions that are being considered, right?
There is no similar disinfectant gas.

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And when you talk about products that have a certification cycle
that lasts the better part of a decade, having a sudden need to
swap a key component or material in your product and then put
the recertification and test requirements on top of that that are
necessary to ensure that, well, if you are making something that
is going in an aircraft engine to a civil airliner, that we are all safe
and secure aboard that airplane, look, there are things that make
that nearly impossible.
So I would just really say that it is important to be very clear
on what the reality science- and technology-wise is before we go
and put forward a regulation demanding the impossible.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
My time is up.
I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of questions.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Neitzel, President Trump reentered office on promises to im-
mediately lower egg prices. However, in the past week, the national
average warehouse delivery price for conventional large white eggs
rose to $6.70 per dozen from $5.87 on January 20th when he took
office.
Any comments on that?
Ms. NEITZEL. Yes. Egg prices have risen. There is also an egg
shortage in America.
The instability in food prices is only going to get worse as we un-
derstand more about the trade war. And restaurants and ice cream
shops and grocery stores operate on the thinnest margins of most
main street businesses. We simply can’t afford prices to increase in
any of our cost of goods.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
On Saturday, President Trump enacted a 25-percent tax on goods
from our trade allies Canada and Mexico and a 10-percent tax on
goods from China. The nonpartisan Peterson Institute reports that
these taxes will spike up our inflation and cut our GDP over the
next few years.
Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to enter the report
into the record.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So ordered.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Ms. Neitzel, you state that these tariffs will
cost you $100,000 extra on ice cream cups and containers alone.
Will you be forced to pass this cost on to consumers?
Ms. NEITZEL. Yes. If these tariff go through, I will have to raise
my prices.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. And we all know that, 2 business hours into
Monday, President Trump paused his tariffs on Mexico.
Was that chaotic for your business? How harmful was that tariff?
Ms. NEITZEL. Yeah, that was very chaotic. We are wondering
where fruit and paper products are going to come from and how we
will make up the costs.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Ms. Neitzel, President Trump is placing the
richest man in the world and the owner of several large tech cor-
porations, Elon Musk, in charge of the federal government without
the guardrails of typical federal employment.

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Do you think this will make federal agencies pay more attention
to the needs of small businesses like yours or bigger, wealthier cor-
porations?
Ms. NEITZEL. It will absolutely make the federal government
pay more attention to bigger corporations.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Musk had the highest-ranking civil serv-
ant at the Treasury Department removed for their reluctance to
give him unrestricted access to a sensitive payment system used to
pay out more than $6 trillion a year in Social Security, Medicare,
government contract payments, and tax reforms.
Are you comfortable letting this unelected man have this data on
federal payments to you and your fellow Americans?
Ms. NEITZEL. No. Every person I have talked to in the last 2
weeks and especially the last 2 days—every American is scared of
Elon Musk being given the keys to our government.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
The federal government has increasingly used continuing resolu-
tions to fund vital programs, rather than more stable yearly budg-
ets. As a small-business owner who receives services from the SBA,
is this approach to public-service funding helpful?
Ms. NEITZEL. No.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Why not?
Ms. NEITZEL. I wish that Congress could work together to pass
real budgets that are longer-term and intentional, with the prior-
ities of main street businesses at the heart of the concern.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. So here we are. We always say that certainty
is so important for small businesses in order to plan ahead, and yet
the federal government cannot provide that certainty.
Regarding the type of immigrants who have work permits, the
President issued an executive order to deport those immigrants.
What effect will that have on main street small businesses?
Ms. NEITZEL. Losing farmers who have work permits in the
United States will devastate the food system in America. We need
those workers in order to feed our families and our children.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you, Ms. Velázquez.
She yields back.
And now I now recognize Ms. Van Duyne from the great State
of Texas for 5 minutes.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And I want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today.
Mr. Chairman, I ask for unanimous consent to submit for the
record the Prime Minister of Canada’s statement announcing bor-
der protections in direct response to President Trump’s proposed
tariffs.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So ordered.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. We have heard some conversation this morn-
ing how bad tariffs are, but the fact is that what we have seen over
the last several days is that we have had countries—Canada, Mex-
ico, Colombia—that have actually agreed now to help us, the
United States, with a number of different things, from securing our
borders to preventing fentanyl deaths. I think those are really im-

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portant, as opposed to just looking at how much we are going be
able to save on a grapefruit.
You know, I have heard some criticisms this morning on Musk
and how he is not running our typical federal government pro-
grams. I am going to ask anybody: Have our typical federal pro-
grams and how we have typically been running the federal govern-
ment helped any of your businesses? Or has it gotten us into
$36.22 trillion of debt and a $2 trillion deficit?
We added $1.4 trillion of regulations the last 4 years onto our
small businesses. And, Ms. Moon, I am assuming that you appre-
ciate the additional $1.4 trillion of extra money that businesses are
having to spend, including and especially small businesses.
I have also heard how dangerous it is that Mr. Musk, who is an
advisor to an elected President, how dangerous his regulations are
and because he is an unelected person.
Does anybody know how many bureaucrats in our government,
in our agencies that are making these decisions, how many of them
are elected?
Ms. Moon?
Ms. NEITZEL. He has not been confirmed by Congress.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. He is an advisor to the President. It is not
part of the Cabinet, not necessary for confirmation.
But even people who are confirmed are not elected. But what we
have seen is, so many of these bureaucrats over and over again are
making the decisions. And, a lot of times, we pass laws but the reg-
ulations that these agencies are putting out don’t even reflect the
intent and sometimes are in direct conflict with our laws. And none
of them are elected.
And I think what you have seen is the American public is sick
of it. They want to have a difference in how government is typically
run, for those exact reasons.
I appreciate you being here. Look, I love ice cream, and I am
happy that you are contributing, you know, to our economic
growth. But I think we also need to get real here. And as we kick
off the 119th Congress, we have an incredible opportunity right
now to undo many of the harms that have been done to small busi-
nesses by the Biden-Harris administration and we can enact mean-
ingful pro-growth reforms.
And, you know, we saw a recent report from the National Asso-
ciation of Manufacturers that revealed that if the Trump tax cuts
are not renewed, that in Texas’s 24th District alone 27,000 jobs
and $2.6 billion in wages and $5.3 billion in GDP, just in Texas’s
24th District, are at risk.
So, Mr. Hutter, as the CEO of a manufacturing company, what
tax policies are most important to small businesses like yours?
Mr. HUTTER. Sure. No, thank you for the opportunity.
I think I would choose to focus first on something that demands
immediate attention because it has already expired, and it is the
inability to no longer expense—the inability to any longer expense
research and development.
It is important for everyone to remember that R&D, while we
tend to think about that as being the research behind the amazing
new products that America is famous for, it is really also about the
amazing new processes that America is famous for. And one of the

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things that we are absolutely best at and makes this country the
most competitive is our innovation around manufacturing.
And so, at a time when we really are enjoying low unemployment
and we have an opportunity to get even greater value deployed for
our country through the amazing talent on our teams, what do we
need? We need to have the ability to invest in capital equipment
that unleashes their capability and puts new productivity in the
hands of our people. And we need to have incentive—or, at least,
the removal of disincentive—to invest in that very research and de-
velopment that creates the new processes that will utilize that
equipment, those tools, and enable that talent.
The upshot of all of this is not just continuing to preserve and
strengthen American competitiveness economically, supporting our
defense industrial base—always something I am happy to talk
about—but, most importantly of all, it is an opportunity to raise
wages, to actually raise the value of the work that great American
talent is doing.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Oh, I love that. And nowhere in there did I
hear you say that we needed to have more regulations.
Mr. HUTTER. No.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. In a response to concerns that I have heard
from small businesses in north Texas and actually around the
country, I reintroduced yesterday the Small Business Regulatory
Reduction Act. And I am looking forward to looking at those costs
of regulations to small businesses and require that the SBA ensure
that the regulations are cost-neutral.
And, with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
And I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from the great State of Ken-
tucky for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that.
Mr. Chairman, let me also start off by offering my condolences
and our prayers to you and everything you are going through. We
have been thinking about you a lot. It is good to be back here.
Ms. Moon, appreciate you being here today. In 1942, it was Win-
ston Churchill who wrote to the British Wartime Minister of Food
that Americans are, quote, ‘‘great addicts of ice cream, which is
said to rival alcoholic drinks.’’ I am born and raised in Kentucky,
and I would just say, why can’t we love both?
But I think there has been a lot of really good points brought up
here today, and I want to address a few of those. Because, in this
particular instance, I do think there is a link between what you are
experiencing with your ice cream business and what we are seeing
at our distilleries in Kentucky as a result of the Trump tariffs and
the chaos that he has thrown the economy into.
There is—in Kentucky right now, we see it—bourbon has to be
made in America. Ninety-five percent of the world’s bourbon is
made in Kentucky, but it just has to be made in America. We also
get 100 percent of the good stuff. But it is not going to incentivize
new manufacturing in America to do this.
We saw this in the first round of tariffs. The retaliatory tariffs
placed on American products like bourbon cost hundreds of millions
of dollars to my State.

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These don’t just impact a company’s bottom line. This is every-
body, from the farmers who grow the corn, the coopers who put it
in the barrel, the union workers who put it in the bottle, the truck
drivers who take it to the store, the stores like yours that sell the
product, the consumers who buy it. It is harmful to everyone down
the line.
And what we are seeing right now with these tariffs and what
they have resulted in, throwing our economy into—it is not over.
It is not over. It is just a pause right now. There are people who
are going to bed in Kentucky going, what is going to happen to the
economy? What is going to happen to our business?
And what do we get for it? All the reports are really modest, not
much. Donald Trump has erased billions of dollars in market cap-
italization, throwing districts like mine into chaos, with these tar-
iffs, but there is not a lot of actual, real new behavior from a place
like Canada. Canada seized 43 pounds of fentanyl on the border
last year. The Canadian papers and other places are sort of run-
ning that we lost the deal on this.
What we want in this Committee and what I have enjoyed about
the nature of this Committee is the bipartisan nature of it, that we
actually want our small businesses to flourish. What every congres-
sional district here has is an economy that is driven by small busi-
nesses. We want those to work.
So, when we talk about these tariffs and the impact that they
have on small businesses—you started to hit on this. I know you
get a lot of your products locally sourced from the Pacific North-
west, but you can’t get it all from there, correct?
Ms. NEITZEL. Correct.
Mr. MCGARVEY. And so do you have to buy coffee or chocolate
or other things from other countries?
Ms. NEITZEL. We buy sugar, chocolate, coffee and tea, and
paper products from outside of the United States.
Mr. MCGARVEY. And you said this would have a $100,000 im-
pact on your business alone in selling ice cream.
Ms. NEITZEL. That is just if there were tariffs on our paper
products. Yes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Just on the paper products. Expanding beyond
that, it is going to be even more of an impact.
Ms. NEITZEL. Correct.
Mr. MCGARVEY. A question I honestly don’t know the answer
to: Do you think—you talked about you would have to pass this on
to the consumers. What does that actually do to your business? Do
the consumers absorb all that cost?
Ms. NEITZEL. Yeah. So, when food prices are higher in America,
it makes people go out to eat less often. I am very dependent on
people going out to dinner and then walking down to the ice cream
shop afterward. The small-business economy is especially inter-
twined with each other. So vegetable costs at the restaurants down
the street matter just as much to me as my own cost of goods. And
I am extremely worried about restaurants.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Yeah. And so I think we see the impact, the
ripple effect this has and will have on your employees.
And, of course, I love what you are doing with childcare. I truly
wish we were doing more with childcare in Congress. We need to.

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That is absolutely an economic development tool as well as a crisis
that we have in this country, not having enough childcare.
But when this impacts a business like yours, it impacts other
businesses, it impacts your employees, it impacts the childcare you
are providing, and I think we see the ripple effects. So I appreciate
that and hope we can continue to provide some relief for small
businesses up here.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Ellzey from the great State of Texas for 5
minutes.
Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I send my condo-
lences to you and your family, as well, for the loss of your bride.
Mr. Hutter, welcome to our hearing. As an aviator myself, would
you tell me what exactly—let’s say, what is your premier part that
goes into an aircraft that we would all know?
Mr. HUTTER. Well, we manufacture about 5,000 parts that go
into the engine, the cells of every Boeing 737 and Airbus A320,
Boeing 787 and A350. Of course it contains and surrounds the en-
gines.
Mr. ELLZEY. And you created this part and are the sole propri-
etor of it as a small business. Nobody does what you do. Correct?
Mr. HUTTER. You know, we are proud to have quite a few
things that have been both IP-protected but also trade-secret-pro-
tected. And we maintain those positions by just being the best.
Mr. ELLZEY. Okay.
So what is an example of a regulation that has held back your
business from growing? Because aviation is highly regulated, be-
cause it is all about safety. We are not going to discuss what has
happened in the last week. But that is why the regulations are so
high. Are there some that are unnecessary and too cumbersome for
you?
Mr. HUTTER. Yeah, no, it is a great question. Of course, you
know, thank you for the reference to the tragedies of the last week.
It was a reminder of why regulations not only are not all bad, they
are really critical for us to deliver the safety record that we have
in this country.
But there are some that, as I mentioned earlier, just don’t make
sense or are pretty unworkable, if not impossible, for small busi-
nesses. You know, our businesses are small, but they are great
ones, too, if we can be allowed to get to the work that we have been
set out to do. And there are a great number of regulations—and I
am thinking of some that even are born of SEC regulation——
Mr. ELLZEY. Uh-huh.
Mr. HUTTER.—okay? Previously we had the conflict-minerals
source tracing. We have the opportunity to potentially see some-
thing similar in some of the greenhouse-gas-emissions regulations.
It is the chance to let’s, you know, get this stuff right and do it in
a way that is workable.
And where I am headed here is, you have got regulations that
are targeted at and made the responsibility of publicly traded com-
panies or large companies like our customers, and whether they
are right, wrong, or indifferent at that level, here is what happens
at my level: The reporting requirements, the data collection re-

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quirements that come rolling down through the supply chain—and
60 to 70 percent of the aerospace supply chain, civil and defense,
is not at those big names that you see on the stock ticker; they are
at companies like ours, small businesses. And just the effort to go
get the data and feed it back upstream to serve those compliance
needs requires, you know, a team that I don’t have.
And the people that would go to do that kind of analytical and
research work are the very same talent on my lean, mean team
that would otherwise be focusing their efforts on improving our
production and scheduling, our reliability, our economy, maybe
even our direct impact to our employees around safety or around
environmental responsibility. And, instead, they are off on this, you
know, research project supporting a regulation that I don’t even
know that the government knows what it is going to do with the
data.
Mr. ELLZEY. And they don’t know the second-, third-order ef-
fects. If you go out of business, we don’t make 737s. It is as simple
as that.
Mr. HUTTER. No, sir. And I think that that reaches across some
of these things like availability of certain materials, the stability of
energy supply.
Mr. ELLZEY. Yeah.
Mr. HUTTER. We had better understand what we are doing be-
fore we shut off the tap on something that could bring things to
a stop real fast.
Mr. ELLZEY. It sounds a lot like the banking for the community
banks. I mean, if you just changed the wording just a little bit, it
sounds exactly the same way.
And, Mr. New, we are just about out of time. So it sounds like—
I know, in your industry, this same kind of regulations have an ef-
fect.
Ms. Neitzel, I want to thank you for being here. I am an addict
of ice cream. I can’t wait to try the Yeti.
I just want to point out that—you are talking about a shortage
of eggs. The Trump administration has been in power for less than
2 weeks. There is no shortage of eggs because of Donald Trump.
It is bird flu and the requirement to kill a lot of chickens that has
caused a shortage that has been ongoing for several years in the
United States now. It has nothing do with tariffs—which, I might
add, are not actually in effect. It was a negotiating point.
But I would also like to add: Let’s be clear, I mean, I am ex-
tremely impressed with your desire to start a business. I wish I
could start an ice cream business. But keep in mind, there are con-
sequences for choices that you make. For instance, you know, you
don’t—do you allow police in your store if they are armed?
Ms. NEITZEL. I do.
Mr. ELLZEY. You do? But you didn’t in 2020, correct?
Ms. NEITZEL. Correct.
Mr. ELLZEY. Okay. Well, there are consequences for not allow-
ing cops in the CHOP area, which ended up devastating your busi-
ness. So I think we ought to keep in mind cause and effect in small
businesses, and some of those choices you made prove to harm your
own business.
So thank you.

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Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mrs. McIver from New Jersey for 5 minutes.
Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much, Chair and Ranking Member.
And thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.
And, Mr. Chair, I offer my condolences to you and your family
as well and my prayers to you all.
We all know that small businesses are the backbone of the Amer-
ican workforce and the driving force behind the American Dream.
We have heard many of our witnesses talk about that today and
many Members of Congress talk about that. In my district alone,
thousands of small businesses thrive, employing tens of thousands
of hardworking individuals, many from minority, women, and im-
migrant communities.
Just 2 weeks ago, one of my small businesses experienced an un-
just raid by ICE agents, resulting in the arrest of three employees
and the detention and questioning of several others. This raid cre-
ated widespread fear within the entire community, disrupted busi-
ness operations, and imposed undue hardship on the establishment
and the dedicated workers there.
I spoke to this community this morning, the leader, one of my
council members and mayor of this community, and they indicated
to me that about a 25-percent to 30-percent drop they have seen
in the small business—in the small businesses—you know, folks
coming in to support small businesses and shops and the locals
there, which speaks to this is a very thriving community on small
businesses. It is definitely a hardship. I mean, it has created so
much of a fear that people are scared to come outside in this com-
munity.
And, Ms. Neitzel, you talked about it when our Ranking Member
asked you about what does it mean when, you know, immigrants
are not showing up to work on farms and they are not coming to
work, and you talked about, you know, the impact it would have
on our food systems.
But can you elaborate a little bit more on what the profit mar-
gins would be—the impact on the profit margins themselves for
small businesses because of such?
Ms. NEITZEL. If farmers can’t get their employees to come to
work because they are so scared of ICE raids, then restaurants and
grocery stores and ice cream shops won’t have the produce that we
need to make our products. If we don’t have what our customers
want, like that Yeti ice cream, we are not going to have customers
walking in our doors. It will bring the entire small-business econ-
omy to a halt.
Mrs. MCIVER. Correct. Thank you for that. And I am sure, like
I mentioned about my East Ward community in the city of Newark
already experiencing that, when folks are not coming in to shop
and support small businesses.
I just want us all to think about this from both sides of the aisle
as we begin our work here in this new Congress—that seems like
it has already been 25 years in this new Congress already, but only
a couple of weeks in—that it is imperative that we prioritize the
protection of all businesses and the individuals who contribute to
their success.

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Safeguarding their well-being is essential to maintaining the
strength of our local economies and preserving the opportunities
that small businesses provide.
So thank you so much.
And with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri for
5 minutes.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, our sympathies to
you and your great family down in Texas, running a great small
business there, for the loss of your Patty.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Appreciate
that.
This committee stands as a staunch advocate for Main Street
America. If we do not champion main street interests, we risk los-
ing the small businesses that are integral, part of the fabric of
America.
Small businesses spent the last 4 years under attack from a le-
thal combination of inflation and overregulation. This committee is
here to assure small business owners that these attacks are over.
The Trump administration and a unified Republican Congress are
here to fight for you, to ensure that everyone can live the American
Dream.
Throughout President Biden’s term, federal agencies finalized
more than 1,000 regulations, costing small businesses more than
$1.7 trillion—$1.7 trillion. That is the same as the entire federal
discretionary budget for fiscal year 2023.
It is unacceptable that federal agencies can put this burden on
the taxpayers of this country. And with Elon Musk in charge of the
Department of Government Efficiency, we will end the federal gov-
ernment’s attack on businesses.
Through a letter dated February 3, and here in this very com-
mittee room, Ranking Member Velázquez and committee Demo-
crats have raised concerns about DOGE being granted access to
Small Business Administration systems. Well, with all due respect
to the Ranking Member, who is now leaving this committee room,
this is exactly what Americans voted for last November 5.
The American people are sick and tired of unelected and unac-
countable bureaucrats wasting billions of dollars—taxpayer dollars.
The PPP and EIDL programs wasted hundreds of billions of dollars
in potentially fraudulent COVID loans. Estimates vary, but most
agree that over $200 billion was fraudulent.
The American people elected President Trump to clean up the
corruption and waste in Washington. Maybe, just maybe, if com-
mittee Democrats joined the majority last Congress in investigating
SBA’s lax fraud controls and nearly nonexistent efforts to reclaim
taxpayer dollars, then DOGE would not need to now go inside the
SBA.
I am also enthused that President Trump has ordered federal
workers back to their desks in the offices just down the street here.
As we saw on our visit to the SBA more than a year ago, employee
attendance was meager at best. As Chairman of the Subcommittee
on Oversight, I will be working with Ranking Member Tran to en-
sure maximum efficiency and transparency by the SBA.

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With 2 minutes left, Ms. Moon Neitzel, a couple of questions for
you.
How much is the price of an ice cream cone in your shop, a small
one? Let’s just start with a small one.
Ms. NEITZEL. A single scoop is $6.95.
Mr. ALFORD. $6.95. If the tariffs go into effect, what is the esti-
mated price increase you will have to make on that product?
Ms. NEITZEL. I have no idea, because I——
Mr. ALFORD. Can you take a guess?
Ms. NEITZEL. Nope.
Mr. ALFORD. $7.25? Is it going to go up a dollar?
Ms. NEITZEL. Could be.
Mr. ALFORD. A dollar.
Do you know why the tariffs are being used right now as a tool
by President Trump? It is to shut down the illegal and illicit
fentanyl that is coming to our country from Mexico and Canada
that is killing more than 300 of our fellow citizens each and every
year.
Ms. NEITZEL. All 43 pounds of it from Canada.
Mr. ALFORD. I would submit to you that the threat of a tariff
to stop this illegal drug trade—and, yes, most of it is coming from
Mexico—is worth the added cost of an ice cream cone in America.
Ms. Moon Neitzel, do you hire any illegal aliens?
Ms. NEITZEL. I don’t know.
Mr. ALFORD. You don’t know? You could be hiring illegal aliens?
Ms. NEITZEL. We check the paperwork as per regulation.
Mr. ALFORD. But you think some of them might be illegal, here
illegally?
Ms. NEITZEL. I don’t know.
Mr. ALFORD. Why should any employee or any illegal alien be
working in America to begin with?
Ms. NEITZEL. Every American deserves a job.
Mr. ALFORD. Every U.S. citizen or every person who lives in the
Americas?
Ms. NEITZEL. Every American deserves a job, sir.
Mr. ALFORD. I will take that as a U.S. citizen.
Why should anyone who is here with legal status be fearful of
any ICE raids?
Ms. NEITZEL. The fear and intimidation of these ICE raids
reaches to every American citizen, as well as the folks they are
looking for.
Mr. ALFORD. Well, I think, if you are here legally, you have no
reason to be fearful. And I do believe that a small increase in the
price of ice cream is worth an American life.
So thank you. And I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Cisneros from the great State of California
for 5 minutes.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I, as well, want
to send along my sympathies to you and your family for your loss.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Mr. CISNEROS. January 24 the SBA updated its small business
contracting goals for the fiscal year 2025. Under President Trump,
SBA requires agencies to award at least 5 percent of all contracts

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to small disadvantaged businesses. That is down 15 percent from
the Biden administration.
Other Trump administrative targets include 5 percent for all fed-
eral prime contracts going to women-owned small businesses and
5 percent to—all federal prime contracts going to service-disabled
veteran-owned small businesses, 5 percent of all prime contracts
going to a HUBZone, historically underutilized business zones, 3
percent. These HUBzones are in my district, including the cities of
El Monte, Covina, Azusa, La Puente, and more.
So, Ms. Frazier, given these decreased targets, what advice
would you have for a small business—small disadvantaged busi-
ness—looking to secure capital, as well as for veteran-owned small
businesses and women-owned small businesses?
Ms. FRAZIER. Thank you.
I would like to think that there are opportunities continued be-
yond maybe just those contracts. We actually are a bank for gov-
ernment contractors. Many of them do take advantage of the 8(a)
and are able to use that to grow their revenues. And some also
partner up with some that are not 8(a) to be able to deliver their
services and their products from that perspective. So while the
numbers may be down, I think the opportunities for revenues con-
tinue to grow.
Mr. CISNEROS. Well, but the likelihood is, is that if these small
disadvantaged businesses are not going to receive as many con-
tracts, then banks are probably going to be less likely to lend to
them, right? The same thing as well as our women-owned busi-
nesses and veteran-owned businesses, if they are not going to get
as much government contract business as they did in the past pos-
sibly. There is that possibility as well.
Ms. FRAZIER. I think the loans that they apply for are also rel-
evant to the size of their business at the time. And so sometimes—
all government contractors ebb and flow with their revenues and
the contracts that they win, and so loan sizes also increase and de-
crease relative to that.
Mr. CISNEROS. Well, but I think, again, as it goes, the least
likely of their business decreasing because, as we said, if they are
going to get less business, the chance of them kind of having to
downsize means the possibility of less capital for their businesses.
But with that, I will move on.
Ms. Neitzel, I just want to commend you for your commitment
to childcare. The investment that you have made with your busi-
ness to benefit your employees I think should be commended, and
it should really be a model for other businesses.
So how could we as a committee, how can we as a Congress help
you and other businesses like you that are making this invest-
ment? And as you stated in your testimony, I do think we need to
invest in childcare across the country.
But how can we help small businesses like you help their em-
ployees to make them better businesses?
Ms. NEITZEL. You can help by creating a national childcare pro-
gram that is cost saving because of scale.
Putting a child in daycare in Seattle costs between $2,500 and
$3,000 a month. That is far more than most of my employees pay

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in rent or mortgage payments. So me investing $1,000 a month
isn’t even covering their costs.
But if we had a national childcare system that provided subsidies
or a robust childcare facility system like most other developed na-
tions, we could scale the—lower the cost per child, scale the pro-
gram, and stabilize the entire American workforce, allowing more
women, in particular, to fully participate in the American economy.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you for that answer. And as you stated
also, the tariffs, the negative effect it is going to have on your busi-
ness, with the raising of prices. And my State of California and my
community down in southern California have been devastated by
fires.
Many of the businesses—one of the businesses in my district re-
lies on products that they have to come from other countries, one
of them being Canada, the other being Mexico. This is going to
hurt their business. Lumber, a large amount of lumber that is now
going to be needed to rebuild southern California, the cities of Alta-
dena, Pacific Palisades, that is going to hurt the builders.
And with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Finstad from the great State of Minnesota
for 5 minutes.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Chairman Williams, for holding this
important hearing today.
And thank you to the witnesses for taking time and being here.
I would also like to take a moment, Mr. Chairman, to extend my
condolences to you on the loss of Patty, and just I want you to
know that I continue to pray for you and your family.
I am honored to serve here on the Small Business Committee for
the 119th Congress. As a small business owner myself and one of
the very few real farmers that gets to serve in Congress, I know
firsthand the impact that heavy-handed, burdensome regulations
have on our small business owners.
Over the last 4 years, main street businesses have been fighting
to keep their doors open, dealing with the impacts of inflation, mis-
guided regulations, supply chain issues, and an administrative
state that does not put their priorities first.
I am looking forward to the opportunity to make lasting changes
that will allow our communities in southern Minnesota and across
the country to thrive.
With that being said, Mr. Hutter, you talked in your testimony
about the regulatory state, permitting reform possibly needed. And
last Congress, I was proud to have led the passage of a bipartisan
bill called the PROVE IT Act, which gives our small businesses a
seat at the table and a voice in the regulatory process.
Do you feel like right now you have a voice in that process? Do
you have an opportunity as we pass these well-intended laws in
Congress, the administrative state implements their rules and reg-
ulations, and they come to you and say here are the hoops and
loops you have to jump through and walk through and hide under
to comply, do you have a voice in that process? Do you have an op-
portunity to express your additional cost and the burdensome regu-
latory state that that puts on your business? Do you have a voice
at that table?

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Mr. HUTTER. Well, first off, I apologize, I am not familiar with
the act, but it sounds like a good one in the sense of giving that
input.
We really rely largely on our manufacturers associations, our
aerospace industries association to try to be the interlocutor.
We would love to have more of a direct line of sight to that. And
I think a good place where that shows up are things where we see
that expansion and that rollout of more and more on the regulatory
side.
We are keeping a close eye, I should say, on some of the EPA
regulations, particularly around the New Source Review. And I just
choose that one because as we look to revolutionize and modernize
and grow our manufacturing processes, you have a scenario that
traditionally was pretty lean and mean where these types of small
emitter permitting would happen at the local level, the municipal
level.
And now we are seeing potentially the EPA nose under the tent
to get involved in things that are only going to add a federal layer
to that as well in a scenario that seems completely unwarranted.
So there is an example of something I would raise my hand and
say: Is this really a good idea?
Mr. FINSTAD. Yeah. Thank you for that.
And so, as you know, business owners across the country have
been tasked to comply with numerous regulations, and it has had
a major impact on their bottom line. As has been stated earlier,
$1.7 trillion over the last 4 years affecting small businesses.
With your business specifically, can you give us a rough estimate
of how much time and resources have you had to allocate towards
compliance efforts in the last 4 years?
Mr. HUTTER. Well, the irony, of course, being that taking even
more time to calculate that just puts bad on top of bad. But it is
hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
And I say it is not just the dollars, it is the scarce resources for
talent who have to be redeployed to doing these—I call them intern
projects, if you will—as opposed to really working on the business.
But for a company our size, it actually, we would say, over the last
4 years, ranges into the millions, to be sure.
Mr. FINSTAD. Yeah. So as a small business owner myself, I
don’t have a stable of lawyers or compliance officers or regulatory
experts to help me through that, so it definitely costs our family
business money.
So with what you have just stated, what would you do in your
small business with those dollars if you were able to deploy them
in other ways?
Mr. HUTTER. That is pretty simple. We are heavy believers in
reinvestment, and those dollars that weren’t going to hiring an out-
side consultant or distracting our folks to go run the compliance ac-
tivity would be going into direct impact for either our team and our
business actually working on improved safety, working on im-
proved quality, working on improved productivity and efficiency
that is going to win tomorrow.
So the dollars would be put as direct lead on target for the things
that matter to make us more competitive and more successful in
our mission.

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Mr. FINSTAD. Yeah. Thank you for that.
And, Ms. Neitzel, I just have to say thank you on behalf of the
dairy farmers in southern Minnesota and across this country. Keep
selling ice cream.
And, Mr. Chairman, this body was built on ice cream and bad
decisions.
So with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. From what I can see, I think you are
right.
[Laughter.]
Chairman WILLIAMS. Next, I would now recognize Mr. Tran
from the great State of California for 5 minutes.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I, too, would like to
share my condolences with you and your family on your loss.
I look forward to working on this committee under your leader-
ship and the Ranking Member’s leadership and working with my
colleagues here on this committee.
I grew up with a small business background. My parents had
their own corner market. So the small business and being part of
this committee is very important to me, so important that I believe
that small businesses are the heart and soul of our community and
the heart and soul of our economy.
I started a pharmacy and my own law practice, a small business,
before coming to Congress. So appreciate being on this committee.
So my first question goes to Ms. Neitzel.
Access to health care is still a barrier to entrepreneurship for
Americans looking to take a leap of faith and start a small busi-
ness. How would you expand healthcare through Medicaid and the
ACA? How do you think that would help inspire entrepreneurs to
join the business community?
Ms. NEITZEL. Thank you for the question.
I do a lot of mentoring of young women and young people in gen-
eral looking to start their own companies, and a huge barrier to
starting innovative and helpful new businesses in our economy is
that the entrepreneurs who have the great ideas can’t leave their
jobs because of healthcare.
If we had a national single-payer system that took care of every
American, it would free up that intellectual and inspirational sort
of heart of the American Dream.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you.
Ms. Frazier, can you discuss what your financial institution is
doing to help close racial and gender disparities in access to small
business capital?
Ms. FRAZIER. Oh, I would be happy to. Thank you.
We actually work together with three other financial institutions
to start what we called a Banking on Diversity loan program. Well,
it actually ended up only being three institutions, not four alto-
gether. One was purchased.
Ultimately, we put out into the marketplace $1.5 million of zero
interest rate loans to help minorities and those that were early
stage businesses overall. So revenues were under a million. Most
of the businesses were under a year old. And to date, I am really
excited at the success of that program and how those businesses
have grown.

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Mr. TRAN. Thank you for that.
Mr. Hutter, you have previously spoken about the shortage of
skilled workers in this country, and your firm has partnered with
local community colleges to operate jobs training programs.
Can you discuss the importance of career and technical education
in addressing that shortage?
Mr. HUTTER. Sure. Absolutely. And it is part of our story of
really being a high-tech manufacturer coming to northern Nevada
in the late 1980s and a community that built its economy on gam-
ing and tourism at that time, and we have been proud to be part
of that revolution. And part of the key to making that happen has
been the partnership with our local educational institutions.
And I will say, as important as it is in our business to have bach-
elor’s degreed and advance degreed folks, particularly in the tech-
nical side of things, it is even more fundamental to have folks with
the skills to be able to serve at kind of the technician level. And
we really turn to those partnerships with our local community col-
leges for that, and they are essential.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you.
As a follow-up to that, do you think that more investment is
needed in trade education, STEM education, to maintain and ex-
pand the workforce?
Mr. HUTTER. Yes, I do believe that that is critical, and it can
come from a few different directions. But a key aspect of that is
really being done in a context of engagement with industry.
So we make sure that the investment in curriculum and the in-
vestment in laboratories and whatever it may be actually matches
the needs of business, and we have found that to be a really great
partnership. But we definitely support them.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you so much.
Mr. Hutter, Mr. New, Ms. Frazier, Ms. Neitzel, thank you so
much for being here with us.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. LALOTA. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields.
I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
for 5 minutes.
Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to our witnesses here.
So over the past 4 years, Montantans have watched as the Biden
administration did everything it could to put energy producers in
our State and around the country out of business.
They almost succeeded. Coal, oil, natural gas producers have
been holding on by a thread as radical Green New Deal activists
and the EPA and BLM revoked leases for mines and extraction fa-
cilities. They closed off vast swaths of federal land to energy pro-
duction and introduced rules and regulations specifically tailored to
shut down these companies.
Now, this anti-energy stance had a negative impact outside of
the energy sector. Small businesses, especially in manufacturing,
require reliable access to cheap energy to make their products and
operate successfully.
Now we are entering into a brave new world as cryptocurrency,
blockchain, artificial intelligence integrate further into every sector
of the economy. Our energy infrastructure and production capacity

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are nowhere near the size they need to be to manage this techno-
logical expansion.
Now, unleashing American energy production is a priority for the
Trump administration, and I look forward to working with them to
do just that.
So my first question to Mr. New—and thank you for being here—
over the past 4 years have you seen a decline or a slowing of
growth in your business due to the anti-oil-and-gas leasing policies
of the Biden administration?
Mr. NEW. Certainly our customers have slow-walked projects,
they have canceled some projects because they couldn’t get permits.
They were uncertain about the future and didn’t—wouldn’t invest.
And today, just this morning, I read one of our customers, a
project that they have been talking about for about 5 years now,
they just announced that they are probably not going to go ahead
with that project now because it drug out so long that this was an
oil export terminal—their main customer bailed out because it was
taking so long.
Mr. DOWNING. So would approving more leases for oil and gas
production in the Gulf of America, as the Trump administration
has promised, improve your potential for growth?
Mr. NEW. Absolutely. Our customers have to have access to leas-
ing.
Mr. DOWNING. Okay. Mr. New, access to capital is a significant
issue for many small businesses, especially in the energy sector.
Now, have you seen a decrease in capital access for your business
or others in the energy sector due to a lack of regulatory certainty?
And, if so, how has this regulatory uncertainty affected your busi-
ness?
Mr. NEW. Yes, I have seen it directly, particularly in some of the
larger banks. Banks that I have done business with for many years
basically told me that: Bill, we love you, we love your business, you
do a great job, but you are an oil and gas business, we can’t lend
to you anymore.
Mr. DOWNING. Yeah. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Hutter, thank you for being here.
Joe Biden and Gary Gensler’s SEC and woke reinsurance compa-
nies have tried to shut down companies through the back door
rather than the front door using ESG to restrict access to capital
at the expense of small business.
Now, how has this harmed your business? And how can Congress
make improvements?
Mr. HUTTER. I am not really in a position to comment on that
directly because we haven’t experienced the effects of that.
I know that we have small businesses, smaller than us by far,
in our supply chain, and I would just broadly say that their access
to capital and their access to the things that make them successful
are critical to me as well. But no direct experience.
Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you.
I just, as a former securities and insurance regulator, have seen
a lot of this happening, so I appreciate that.
So I just want to thank you all for your testimony.
The past 4 years have been a relentless struggle for American
energy producers. But with the Trump administration prioritizing

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domestic energy dominance there is a reason for renewed opti-
mism.
And the testimonies today have made it clear: Energy security is
economic security. It is national security. And moving forward, we
must cut through the regulatory red tape stifling small business,
especially those in manufacturing and energy production.
Now, I look forward to working alongside my colleagues in Con-
gress and the Trump administration to get this done.
Thank you. I yield my time.
Mr. LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize the gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Olszewski,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much.
I first want to just join this committee and all the Members in
sharing my condolences with the Chair and surrounding he and his
family in our prayers.
Thank you all for making the time to travel.
Ms. Neitzel, I am looking forward next time for you bringing
samples for us to have while we are here, please.
I just want to open, I have had a chance to listen quite a bit, just
two quick observations.
I know there has been a lot of back-and-forth about unelected bu-
reaucrats both Democrats and Republicans have leveraged here. I
just hope that as we go about our work that we can agree on things
like Congress’ fundamental power of the purse, our legal authority
to establish change and eliminate departments.
And I just hope that as we have those conversations, conversa-
tions that I welcome, that we do it through the well-established
democratic processes that this country has been founded on for a
very long time.
As it relates to tariffs, I just want to remind, especially relative
to Canada, we are talking about in fiscal year 2024, 1.5 percent of
all apprehensions at the border were on the northern border, just
1.5 percent. The last 3 fiscal years, the amount of fentanyl that
came from the northern border was less than 1 percent of all
fentanyl seized.
And so if we are willing to exchange a 25 percent increase on
goods for that, I guess we should expect those numbers being zero
in the upcoming year, but we will see what happens there.
Mr. Hutter, I know on Congressman Tran’s question you spoke
about and I really appreciate your engagement with community
colleges and STEM and job training programs. Clearly, you see the
value in those investments.
I really appreciate also your conversation about engagement with
industry. Prior to coming to Congress, as Baltimore County execu-
tive, we both made our community colleges absolutely free to any
family making $150,000 or less.
We also partnered with the nursing and healthcare industry to
create a nursing pipeline program that actually, for Democrats, we
would say we knocked down barriers to opportunity, we invested
in things like childcare, transportation, and housing. Perhaps from
a Republican perspective you can say we helped people pull them-
selves up by their bootstraps.

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But would you say that if we engage in those conversations and
find those gaps, those are the kinds of investments that we in Con-
gress might want to continue to make to help make more opportu-
nities for your workforce?
Mr. HUTTER. Yeah. I think yes. And I would want to make sure
to capture that this is as much or more also an obligation and re-
sponsibility of business itself. And it has been very much that part-
nership of the investment we put into our own training and devel-
opment for folks, and I think it is a key piece that differentiates
us and makes us a great place to work and attracts the best talent.
But that happens in a context where we want to hire from our
community versus draw people in from far and far away. We want
to build our community as we go.
And so I do think that it is all in the doing. But from a concept
standpoint, of course, having a strong commitment in the commu-
nity to the education and the training and, I would say, the overall
uplift in the tone around the nobility of skilled trades is really crit-
ical.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. That is great. I appreciate that question and
hope to bring that forward as my time here in Congress continues.
And then, Ms. Neitzel, I just will conclude with a question for
you.
Congratulations on the new shops that are coming. I know that
they, as you have testified, are funded in part with SBA loans.
I just wanted to give you a minute, minute and a half here. Any
feedback that this committee might have in terms of what your
interaction has been like, what we might want to know to help
make sure that other businesses who are looking to do similar
work can have access to it?
Ms. NEITZEL. This was my first time using this SBA loan pro-
gram. I started my company with sort of friends and family inves-
tors and have just gone through a community bank without the
guarantee of the SBA to grow my company for the last 17 years.
So this is my first experience, and it has been fine.
I was listening to Ms. Frazier’s testimony and thinking there are
opportunities, I think, for us to chat about ways that both Main
Street Alliance and Ms. Frazier and her banking organization could
talk about bipartisan ways to maybe make it a little smoother.
It has been a very complicated process, and I loved her comment
about the 81 data points. I have felt each of those 81 questions
deeply.
But the access to the capital and a stable SBA have been critical
to my business’ next phase of growth.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. That is great.
Well, I welcome the opportunity to work with both of you if we
can find those improvements in the years ahead.
With that, I yield. Thank you.
Mr. LALOTA. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the beautiful Northern
Mariana Islands for 5 minutes.
Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I join the
Members in expressing my condolences to the Chairman.
Thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony today and for
making time to be with us.

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Under SBA definitions, all businesses in my district, the North-
ern Mariana Islands, are small businesses. That is why I am so
grateful to serve on this important committee, so I can speak about
their challenges here in the 119th Congress.
Businesses in my district operate in one of the most remote parts
of our country. This geographic isolation drives up operating costs,
limits access to customers and capital. And in recent years, we
have seen a growing sense of hopelessness—some would say
straight-up despair—because our primary industry, which is tour-
ism, has yet to recover from the impacts of COVID-19.
Testimonies today cited a 2023 study of the National Association
of Manufacturers which found that federal regulations cost an esti-
mated $12,800 per employee across all sectors of the U.S. economy,
and this highlights some of our challenges.
To put that figure in perspective, in my district, that would sug-
gest that the cost of regulatory compliance in the Northern Mari-
anas is 38 percent of our total gross domestic product and 25 per-
cent of all business revenue made in the islands.
What makes this so challenging is, despite the many one-size-
fits-all regulations, there is no one-size-fits-all application of bene-
fits for small businesses in my district. For example, while SBA
has made significant investments in the CNMI in response to nat-
ural disasters and the pandemic, in programs like the SBA’s Res-
taurant Revitalization Fund, my district had the lowest approval
rate in the nation, with nearly 90 percent of applications denied.
Despite the dire need for capital among entrepreneurs, participa-
tion in SBA’s flagship 7(a) Loan Guarantee Program is far below
national averages.
It is clear that the federal government must do more to recognize
and address the realities of businesses in isolated communities like
mine. National policies already create challenges for small busi-
nesses, but for places like the CNMI these challenges are mag-
nified.
As this committee looks to support President Trump’s effort to
unleash small businesses in our community, I ask that we take a
critical look at how Congress can do more to support the unique
needs of these businesses in areas like the CNMI and do our part
to break away from one-size-fits-all policies on funding, capital ac-
cess, labor, and market access.
It is around 2 a.m. now from where the people that I represent
live. We are 15 hours ahead of Washington, D.C. And when the sun
comes up in the mainland it is nighttime back home.
In many ways, our horizons are different. I have seen the data
that many businesses in the United States have rebounded from
the pandemic and have grown beyond it. Unfortunately, the same
cannot be said for the Northern Marianas.
I do believe, however, that hope is on the horizon, and I ask for
this committee’s partnership to make sure that despite the distance
and the obstacles, when hope does make it over the horizon it is
something that we can all celebrate.
So I am here trying to be a better champion for the people in my
community, and I guess I am looking to champion policies that ad-
dress rural, isolated communities like mine. And so this question
is to you, Ms. Frazier.

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One of the biggest issues for businesses in my district is access
to capital. Traditional banking models often struggle to serve high-
cost, low-volume markets in sparsely populated areas like the
CNMI.
In your experience, how can federal policy better support commu-
nity banks in small population centers so they can extend capital
to businesses that are viable but geographically disadvantaged?
Ms. FRAZIER. Thank you for that question. I am going to an-
swer that with two fronts, if I may.
You spoke about the one-size-fits-all regulation and how it im-
pacts the small businesses, and it impacts us when banking regula-
tions are one-size-fits-all, and it puts us in boxes and makes us
have to operate very similar to much more out-of-market, larger
competitors.
What you have indicated is your businesses need that personal
relationship. They need that ability to have a banker that they can
work with and help them with a customized product.
SBA, with a guarantee or not, it is how do those cash flows come
into that business, how can the bank help them support it when
they need it the most. So the tiered regulation, recognizing thresh-
olds, would be critically important for us.
And I am going to go back to the 1071, because if applied the
way it is intended or the way it is now currently written, forget the
81 data points. It says that we have to separate the person from
the decision. And so the person that is actually working with the
client, understanding their business, is not part of the decision, and
that can really impact the ultimate outcome.
Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you for that.
Going back to these one-size-fits-all regulations, do you see a dis-
proportionate impact with regards to rural banks in your experi-
ence?
Ms. FRAZIER. I do. I have the great benefit of visiting several
States over the past year and meeting a lot of bankers, and I have
met a bank that is running off of seven employees. Imagine trying
to implement these regulations with seven employees, but they are
serving a tiny, tiny community with all that they need. And so it
is unbearable for them to bear that.
Ms. KING-HINDS. All right. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. LALOTA. The gentlelady’s time has expired.
I now recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, Dr. Conaway,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, witnesses, for presenting yourself to us today.
As I have listened to the comments today, I have to say I am a
little bit surprised about the criticisms of the prior administration
with respect to job growth. We have 21 million businesses that
were created, the largest number in any single Presidential term,
440,000 establishments per month, 90 percent faster than during
the pre-pandemic era.
We have growth—I know this is of concern to some in the admin-
istration—but business ownership among Black households dou-
bled, a 30-year high business ownership for Latinos, a 30-year high
in business ownership for Asian Americans as well.

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And we have seen that, while certainly inflation was a challenge,
it is—well, you have to except food and energy now—we are getting
down to more normalized inflation in this country as well.
So things are pretty strong. When you compare us to Europe, we
are well ahead of them. Our economy is the envy of the world when
you compare it to other people. In fact, China is experiencing defla-
tion now.
And so I think certainly we want to make sure that our small
businesses continue to thrive. Ninety percent of the jobs are cre-
ated by small businesses in this country; they are, and we hear it
all the time, the backbone of our economy. Forty-six percent of all
employees are employed by small business, probably more than
that. And certainly a great contribution to new job growth.
So small business is rightly the concern of the American people
and certainly, rightly, the concern of the Congress.
I wanted to make a comment. We have heard about tariffs this
morning as well. And tariffs, whether they have gone into effect
fully yet or not, we have already seen that businesses have taken
steps. Some have raised prices because of the instability caused by
the back-and-forth over tariffs, and those prices of course drive in-
flation.
We have heard already from our witnesses today and others who
have spoken from the dais about the costs of inputs that will go
up.
California needs to be rebuilt. We heard that from the Vice
Ranking Member about the need to rebuild California, and the
wood and the materials that are going to be needed to get that job
accomplished under a system of the tariffs that are proposed, if
they go through, are going to raise the cost of housing once again.
Of course, housing inflation was a huge issue for Americans in this
last issue.
In my own State alone, when you look at our relationship, trad-
ing relationship with Canada, Canada is responsible for $17.5 bil-
lion to our economy in New Jersey. It is a huge—through the bilat-
eral trade agreements and interaction with Canada each year in
New Jersey alone.
So a tariff on Canada, which will certainly impact our economy
in the State of New Jersey, and we certainly don’t want to see that.
And, indeed, we have not quite as much with Mexico, but we
know tariffs are little more than a tax on the American people, will
raise costs at a time when they are very concerned about costs,
they want to see costs down.
This is a promise, I think—I don’t want to talk about what peo-
ple voted on this last election. They voted on the promise of the
government taking on inflation. I don’t know how you do that ex-
actly in an economy that is not controlled.
But anyway, that is the promise that was made. People voted on
that. And let’s just hope that we, as we move forward in these next
4 years, keep the job growth going and get inflation under control.
Ms. Neitzel, can you speak to us—and you have probably done
some of this already, and I am sorry if I am repetitive here—but
you run a small business. You get inputs from in country and over-
seas. Can you perhaps elaborate more or reemphasize the impact
of tariffs on your own business and the cost of your inputs?

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Ms. NEITZEL. Yes. I have spoken a little bit about that. But as
I said, our paper products all come from overseas, as do sugar, cof-
fee, chocolate.
Another concern that I have is the dairy farm where I buy all
of our milk and cream is a fantastic family-owned farm that is so
far north that when I go visit those cows my cell phone connects
to the Canadian cell towers.
They grow some of their feed for those dairy cows, and they trade
constantly with Canada. Our farmers in the Pacific Northwest have
wonderful long-lasting relationships, trade relationships, with our
friends and allies to the north.
Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. LALOTA. Thank you. The gentleman’s time has expired.
I now recognize Mr. Bresnahan from the great State of Pennsyl-
vania for 5 minutes.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to Ranking
Member Velázquez, who I am so elated to see that finally cares
about egg pricing in the United States on day 16.
But my first question actually is a little bit off of the cuff and
is for Ms. Moon.
Ms. Moon, you made reference earlier about the amount of
fentanyl that was seized at the southern border. What was that
number again? The northern border.
Ms. NEITZEL. Forty-three pounds from Canada, sir.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Are you aware of how many people would be
killed if they consumed 43 pounds of fentanyl?
Ms. NEITZEL. This isn’t about fentanyl with Canada; it is about
bullying and chaos creation.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, to me, it is about the 12 million people
that 43 pounds of fentanyl would kill, which is more than the popu-
lation of the State of Ohio, specifically coming from someone who
lost a 16-year-old cousin because of a fentanyl-related situation.
So——
Ms. NEITZEL. I am sorry for your loss.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you. And I think when you are talking
and make comments that it is only 43 pounds, I find that incred-
ibly disheartening.
My next comment would be on the community banking side. I
come from a small business background. My family was very in-
volved in a community bank, and something that really allowed our
small business to grow was because of our relationships with small
community banks, having the lending officer, the person who truly
understands your business, what you are going through during the
good and the bad.
What are the biggest risks to community banks right now that
you would see?
Ms. FRAZIER. The ongoing regulation. And a couple of the
points I have talked about is just the impact of not recognizing the
differences between the banks and the ones that you just men-
tioned that were so important, that tiered regulation is critically
important, that 1071.
While I have touched on the data points, I have touched on the
separation of the decision, it just forces those loans to be put much
more into more of a database, an AI decision, and commoditizing,

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which I think is really, really impactful and hurtful to small busi-
nesses, because we do spend quite a bit of time coaching, coun-
seling, and helping many of them grow from the infancy of an idea
all the way through to something much larger.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, I definitely appreciate the role commu-
nity banks play in the entrepreneurship ecosystem. It is something
that I struggle with and advocated for through various different
nonprofits that I was involved in through tecBridge, which is an
entrepreneurship-based board in Junior Achievement. And it is
those new businesses that are starting don’t have access to capital.
And I have had so many entrepreneurs come to me in my last
life—33 days ago—saying: How do I get a line of credit? If they
don’t have a history of credit they are financing their small busi-
nesses on top of credit cards.
What can Congress do to improve the accessibility of capital to
that startup entrepreneur, truly the American Dream?
Ms. FRAZIER. We really need to stabilize the impact of changing
minds and thought processes around the SBA as well for those
startup businesses, and to also consider through that process that
the best people, the best way to get those dollars implemented are
through the community banks, where the relationships can be
formed, and not through an online business that can fulfill the
need to get capital but they are not helping them grow their busi-
ness, et cetera. I would say that is one way.
Another way is also improving community banks’ access to cap-
ital, because anytime we raise a dollar, that is ten times we can
put out, $10 we can put out into the community. So any opportuni-
ties to impact our access to capital, whether it is changing the ac-
credited investor regulations and allowing it to be a million dollars,
including the house, or in a Sub S, where 1,500 banks are Sub S,
allowing more investors into those.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you for that. I think that is going to
be something that I would like to focus on and inspiring the next
generation of entrepreneur, but that barrier to enter into those
markets and grow and expand, just like I am sure Ms. Moon had
gone through when you were first starting your first ice cream
shop.
But that is the American Dream, and it should be incentivized.
And the burden, the red tape to create your own destiny is a very
challenging and scary concept sometimes.
Mr. Hutter, I also come from the highway infrastructure back-
ground. How have you been able to adapt to tool up with the next
generation of workforce? And are you seeing a pipeline of qualified
individuals to offset your growth and operation?
Mr. HUTTER. Well, the top talent in the world is always going
to be hard to come by, and we need to make more of it in the
States. And I think, more directly, we need to unlock it more read-
ily.
Every American talented worker who is in my plant needs to
benefit from immediate permitting reform, immediate regulatory
rollback, so that we can actually get their talents out there on the
shop floor in larger, more capable facilities that can allow them to
do more for our economy and for their families.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you. I yield back.

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Mr. LALOTA. The gentleman’s time has expired.
I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from the great State of New
Hampshire for 5 minutes.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am so thrilled
to be a part of this committee.
I am grateful to you all for being here today. I am grateful to be
part of this committee and excited because I really do believe that
small businesses are one of the most hopeful expressions of the
American Dream.
And I say that as the great granddaughter of a family farmer,
the granddaughter of a serial entrepreneur who started out selling
airplane rides at the Nashua Airport right down the road from
where I grew up, and the daughter of a small business entre-
preneur.
I have just come back from 9 days all around the great State of
New Hampshire. And thank you for recognizing it is a great State.
My district spans from my hometown Nashua all the way up to
what we call the North Country, the Canadian border, nine coun-
ties that stretch across my district.
I spent a lot of time talking to small businesses. And one of the
throughlines in this hearing so far has been the need for certainty
for small businesses.
You said it well, Mr. Hutter, that certainty, it goes a long way,
and it is mission critical for so many small businesses in my State
and across this country.
From the last 2 weeks, one of the big sources of uncertainty for
small businesses has been the threats of federal funding freezes,
including following last week’s memorandum from the Office of
Management and Budget to other executive actions that have been
taken that have really called into question the availability of law-
fully enacted federal funding that reaches our communities.
This hasn’t been abstract. I am hearing from small businesses
and nonprofit organizations, from mayors, from police chiefs, from
fire chiefs all across our communities who continue to face uncer-
tainty in accessing the federal funding that is promised to the peo-
ple of New Hampshire.
And so one of the questions I want to ask each of our witnesses
is, you all rely on and work closely with the Small Business Admin-
istration and with other federal agencies.
Starting with you, Ms. Neitzel, could you just tell us what com-
munication, if any, or guidance you received from the Small Busi-
ness Administration, or any other federal agency for that matter,
that helped you navigate questions around the availability of fed-
eral funding and federal programs?
Ms. NEITZEL. We work with a small community bank called
Peoples Bank in Washington State, and all of our communication
has been with them. We had a really productive conversation with
the regional small business administrators at the beginning of our
loan process who were very informative.
One of the things I want to address about the federal funding
freeze is that many childcare providers in our community are ex-
tremely worried about the federal funding freeze and worried about
being able to pay childcare providers. If workers in Seattle and

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across Washington State can’t send their kids to those childcare
centers, the economy stops.
Ms. GOODLANDER. I heard from many childcare providers who
were facing enormous uncertainty from small businesses across my
district.
Another source of uncertainty is the threat of a trade war. And
you have spoken to the real cost of that uncertainty for small busi-
nesses.
Look, I believe tariffs are an important tool that can create com-
petition in our economy and can do a lot of good, but the uncer-
tainty that this has caused for small businesses across New Hamp-
shire is just unacceptable.
I want to turn to something where I think we can all agree on.
And I was really grateful for your written testimony, in particular
you, Ms. Frazier, what you wrote about the importance of competi-
tion in the American economy.
I spent a good deal of time serving in the Antitrust Division of
the Department of Justice, and I am very hopeful that this is going
to be an area where we can agree across the ideological spectrum
on the need for competition in the American economy.
In your written testimony, you spoke a bit about the impacts of
consolidation, the impacts on community banks. Could you say a
bit more about the importance of competition and what it does for
the bottom line for the American people?
Ms. FRAZIER. Well, the competition between the banks, I think
what you find in community banks is that we are all working to-
gether to better the communities. And if regulation continues to
persist and grow and grow, it makes it harder and harder for com-
munity banks to survive and thrive. And oftentimes there does con-
tinue to be consolidation, and that is where I believe communities
are really impacted.
Ms. GOODLANDER. I think it is true across the board, from our
defense industrial base to, I am sure, the market for ice cream in
the United States. I see monopolies everywhere, and I think this
is an area where this committee can do a lot of good for small busi-
nesses and the American people.
So with that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The lady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of Pennsylvania
for 5 minutes.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you very much to our witnesses. Appreciate you being
here.
So I think it was you, Mr. Hutter, that said there is a renewed
sense of optimism, thankfully. Over the last 4 years, we dealt with
inflation in excess of 20 percent, gasoline prices through the roof,
literally bringing people to tears. An overall energy crisis. Prohibi-
tions, some in Pennsylvania, on the exporting of LNG for no par-
ticular reason.
Meanwhile, we had a President that thought he only asked for
a survey to be taken as opposed to a complete prohibition.
A border crisis that is an absolutely unmitigated disaster that in-
cludes human trafficking, rape, all kinds of horrible things—I have
been to the border four times—drugs, death. Hundreds of thou-

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sands of young people in particular lost their lives. Human traf-
ficking even throughout my rural district. Wars. Thousands and
thousands, tens of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians dying.
Unrest in the Middle East to no end.
Small businesses—bringing it back home—small businesses hav-
ing some of the worst times ever, from uncertainty, loss of tax re-
lief, the uncertainty of losing the 199A.
Certainly, if there would have been a different President there,
it would have been gone. No question about it. Let’s face it. That
is what they stated.
Manufacturing is on the decline in the United States. It is on the
upswing in China and other places.
So all of this going on, and it just can’t help but be startling to
hear my good friends on the other side of the aisle talk about how
wonderful things used to be and how horrible they are going to be,
and yet these tariffs haven’t even gone into effect yet. And yet
there is chaos and everything else taking place.
I will tell you what has gone into effect: responses from Trudeau
and Sheinbaum in Mexico as to correcting some of those horrible
problems that have occurred. So that has taken place.
And you know what is also startling to me? And I was in inter-
national business. I was in business over 20 years. How somehow
taxing those small companies that became big companies—and that
makes them evil, by the way—is okay, but put a tariff on a small
or large business overseas, that is awful. That is going to create all
kinds of worldwide instability and global unrest.
I think most of us will pay a little more for ice cream and
guacamole if we have less human trafficking and overdose deaths
in the United States of America. I think that was resounding in the
most recent election.
So let’s focus on common sense rather than nonsense political
posturing that we are hearing here: the importance of keeping the
Tax Cuts and Jobs Act.
You, Mr. Hutter, mentioned right at the very beginning bonus
depreciation is on its way out, it is on the decline. 199A is gone at
the end of this year. And we probably won’t get Democrat support
there. That is why we need to do it in reconciliation, which is an
outrage.
The R&D tax credit is on its way—it is gone, completely gone.
And by the way, China has re-upped their R&D tax credit, which
you are nodding, you are aware of. They call it a super deduction
of 200 percent.
So America first doesn’t mean America alone. America first
means: Why don’t we start looking after our American businesses
as opposed to being this global charity which only weakens our
United States of America.
So, Mr. New, we are talking taxes, regulations, and we are talk-
ing banking. Tell me how important the 199A is, how important
taxes relief is to you.
And, Ms. Frazier, I would like you to either tell me as soon as
we are done here how much of a problem the CFPB has been to
you—or were they wonderful and they showed up in your bank.
I will start with you, if you don’t mind, Ms. Frazier.

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Ms. FRAZIER. Given the size of my bank, they didn’t show up
in my bank. We are under $10 billion. But their new regulations,
their laws have been quite discerning and quite costly to us, as we
look at everything. Our compliance department overall—we looked
at a budget—is over a million dollars a year.
Mr. MEUSER. Great.
Ms. FRAZIER. Can’t pass that along.
Mr. MEUSER. Do you think the plan moving forward is going to
help your businesses, gentlemen, or be detrimental?
Mr. NEW. Well, certainly the lower tax rates and——
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is up.
Mr. MEUSER. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Morrison from the great State of Minnesota
for 5 minutes.
Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, Mr. Chair, I would
also like to offer my condolences and deep sympathy for your loss.
Thank you to all the testifiers for being here today. And con-
gratulations to all of you for your successful small businesses and
the important addition that they are making to the success of the
American economy.
You know, I am excited to be on this Committee because it is
known as one of the less partisan committees and more focused on
problem-solving. And that is why I came to Congress, because I
want to solve problems. And I hope that, going forward, we con-
tinue to have a future-oriented problem-solving lens as we proceed.
Mr. Hutter, sincere gratitude to you for helping secure our na-
tion’s safety through much of the work that your business does.
I hear and appreciate the frustration that comes with regulations
and administrative burden. I am a physician by trade, and I am
very familiar, the pain of administrative burden that is heaped on
physicians, frankly, primarily from the private sector.
So, as we look to streamline the regulatory burden on small busi-
ness, I hope we can agree that a balance has to be struck between
keeping our people safe by protecting and doing what we can to
keep our air, land, and water clean.
You know, Mr. Hutter, you mentioned PFAS, which I think is a
great example. Because, as we learn new things, we have to adapt,
we have to be nimble, sometimes we have to change the way we
do things. And I think most of us agree that we want to minimize
the amount of PFAS that we continue to pour into our water and
our land and, by extension, our bodies.
You mentioned that there aren’t good current substitutions for
some of the PFAS chemicals, some of the properties that they have.
So, in the short term, I think we need targeted exceptions to some
of the bans that certain States have been enacting—and there is
legislation at the federal level as well—that gives, you know, time
for our innovative research universities and entrepreneurs to de-
velop alternatives.
And I don’t expect you to define the specifics around PFAS, but
I was wondering if you could comment on that balance between
regulations that protect public health while allowing and encour-
aging businesses to thrive.
Mr. HUTTER. Sure. And I like the way you framed that.

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I think the key thing that I could say here is: predictability, clar-
ity, and workability. And we need to have that renovation—revolu-
tion, if necessary—to our regulatory scheme right now.
You know, the gentleman, the doctor, mentioned, you know, we
have had a great recovery—in job growth; manufacturing has en-
joyed that. Let’s not trip ourselves at the starting line here, be-
cause what comes next is going to define the next 50 years.
So we have to—and I call upon all of you, let’s really auger in
on this and find the balance between—I mean, it is not a balance.
I don’t think it is a compromise. We all want the same outcomes
here. In fact, let’s make sure that industry is best enabled to invest
into the solutions. Let’s trust our companies to actually put money
and talent and innovation behind the problems and help us solve
them together.
So I think that if we can agree on some clear, actionable regula-
tions, in place of a meandering, ever-growing kind of miasma of un-
clear, unpredictable, ‘‘I don’t know if I can invest into this cloud or
not,’’ we are going to see a lot more progress a lot faster.
Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Mr. Hutter.
Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia for 5
minutes.
Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And I want to thank the witnesses for testifying today.
I am a freshman, and during my last campaign, or, rather, my
first campaign for office, deregulation was by far and away one of
the most important things that I heard over and over across my
district.
And I have a unique background. From the first day to the last
day of President Trump’s first administration, I worked in his
White House. And one of the things that he tasked me with doing
was working across his administration to achieve the two-for-one
deregulatory cuts that he pledged during his campaign. And, of
course, he superseded that; he had eight for one. And as you may
have seen, he signed an executive order, I think last week, noting
that he wants to do 10-for-1 cuts. For every regulation on the
books, he wants to cut 10 existing regulations.
So I want to applaud you for walking us through some of the
areas in which we can focus our deregulatory agenda to achieve the
economic success that we had in the first administration.
I want to start, if I could, to Mr. Hutter.
In your testimony, you referred to the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs
Act. And I know my distinguished colleague from Pennsylvania,
Mr. Meuser, touched on it just a moment, but you mentioned spe-
cifically that it was rocket fuel for manufacturers like Click Bond.
And you also mentioned that the pro-manufacturing incentives in
the TCJA were key to innovation and capital investment.
And thanks to Chairman Williams for appointing me the Chair-
man of our Subcommittee on Innovation, Entrepreneurship, and
Workforce Development, I want to highlight that innovation compo-
nent. And I just want to know, could you reiterate the importance
of the TCJA incentives for small businesses like Click Bond in in-
vesting in next-generation manufacturing and workforce training?

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Mr. HUTTER. Sure.
Well, the TCJA—like I said, rocket fuel. And we need to focus
on getting those extensions enacted immediately where they did
incentivize the very investments in our companies and in our cap-
ital equipment that puts, really, those effective tools in the hands
of our talent.
But I want to go beyond TCJA to say, you know, the R&D
expensability expiration is an aspect of TCJA, okay? It was some-
thing we enjoyed for 70 years. And when it comes—prior to TCJA.
So it is not just really the effort to ensure that we extend and
keep in place those amazing investment incentives and the predict-
ability that allowed us to make those investments into the long
term; we need to bring back the expired provisions that have al-
ready gone out, especially around R&D expensing.
And if we can do this in a way that, again, delivers that in a con-
sistent, reliable way without a bunch of sunsets, we are actually
going to get to the place where people can invest with confidence
not just over a couple quarters or a couple years but at
generational level. And that is what is really going to carry this
country and our manufacturers forward.
But we have to get on it right now. Let’s not trip at the start
line, like I said.
Mr. JACK. I completely agree.
And if I could, in my remaining time, turn to Mr. New.
I was encouraged by your opening testimony talking about per-
mitting. Again, I recall very fondly working on trying to accelerate
our permitting process. And I took great delight when I saw the
previous administration take credit for many of the permitting
leases that we pushed forward during President Trump’s adminis-
tration from 2017 to 2021. To your point, it takes 3 to 4 years
sometimes for some of these projects to come on line. We want to
accelerate that as much as we can.
So, with what time I have left, I am curious, how can Congress
legislate safeguards to prevent future regulation efforts in your in-
dustry specifically?
Mr. NEW. Well, certainly, you know, executive orders are fine,
but, you know, we see that, you know, one administration comes
in and they write a bunch of executive orders, the next administra-
tion comes in and immediately reverses all those, and so it is kind
of whipsawed back and forth.
But if you can enshrine some of those changes—like changes in
the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act, this withdrawal of areas
for leasing—if you can enshrine some of that, where it is not sub-
ject to executive order, then we don’t have that whipsaw back and
forth, constantly changing every 4 years when there is a change in
administration.
Mr. JACK. And I also took note, during your opening testimony,
you talked about how it is challenging, if you are running a busi-
ness, when you have this ever-shifting regulatory landscape, it is
really challenging to project your growth.
I am just curious. In all of your years in your industry, which
administration have you seen as the most successful at moving
forth on deregulatory efforts?

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Mr. NEW. Well, certainly, the previous Trump administration, I
would say, is probably the most successful in the deregulatory area.
You know, and I am—I would think like a lot of small busi-
nesses, I am not looking for a handout. I am just looking for a level
playing field, and then get out of my way. I will do the work, I will
invest the money, I will push it forward, but just get out of my
way. Don’t stifle me every time I turn around.
Mr. JACK. Well, I appreciate that, sir.
Thank you to each and every one of our witnesses for testifying
today.
And I yield back to our distinguished Chairman, Mr. Williams.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of Michigan
for 5 minutes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you so much to our witnesses for joining us here
today.
I want to revisit an important conversation that we have been
having here about the tariffs. And I know that, you know, we have
covered a lot of it today, but one thing I really wanted to focus in
on is this 30-day pause.
And, you know, while it has given businesses a little bit of re-
prieve, to me and what I have heard from small-business owners
back home: That is not much time to plan, when who knows what
is at the other end of those 30 days. You know, so many of our
small businesses and entrepreneurs are trying to compete in an in-
creasingly unstable marketplace, and these tariffs could really
throw them into a tailspin.
Ms. Neitzel, I wonder, can you speak to how this impending
change impacts your business operations and how you are navi-
gating through this on such short notice and, you know, particu-
larly to the 30-day piece?
Ms. NEITZEL. Sure. Yeah, the uncertainty has, you know, put
myself and my CFO in a pinch to figure out, if we did have to pay,
say, $112,000 more for our cost of goods because of these tariffs,
we don’t have a plan for how to sell, you know, a million dollars
more of ice cream to make up that profit. That is not something
that I can do [snaps fingers] like that.
It is incredibly difficult, and it is unnecessary. It is
fearmongering. It is bullying. It is playing with the hearts of small-
business owners across America who do not need this. We have
been doing well and growing for the last 4 years.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much for sharing that.
My district covers much of west Michigan. Kent County, the most
populated county in my district, is home to almost 60,000 immi-
grants. That is almost 9 percent of the county’s population. Suffice
it to say, these folks are a real source of influence in our commu-
nity. They contribute culturally, socially, and certainly have a sig-
nificant economic impact, a strong presence in our local workforce.
Many of our constituents are worried about the potential for
mass deportations having a ripple effect on a lot of industries. I be-
lieve that such actions could cause a real strain on our workforce.
We know that mass deportations that don’t necessarily target only
a specific individual can cause individuals to even not show up to

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work if they themselves even have status but happen to be married
to someone who doesn’t or have someone in their family who
doesn’t.
Would mass deportations make it more difficult for businesses
like yours to find workers or to navigate or the impact that it—
speak about the impact that that would have.
Ms. NEITZEL. I am extremely fearful for mass deportations’ ef-
fect on farms in Washington State.
I think that, yes, it creates so much fear, not just for adults, not
just for people who do have legal status, but also for children and
for schools. I have received many emails from folks in Washington
State about planned and threatened and rumored ICE raids in our
public schools in suburbs outside of Seattle.
And kids just need to go to school. Kids are going to grow up and
start businesses. And we need to stop threatening all of these fami-
lies with the fear tactics.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. As a mom of two school-aged kids
and someone who has heard just awful stories from around our dis-
trict, I share those concerns, and we hear it.
I want to use just the last few minutes here to get into, staying
on the topic of kids and childcare, institutions like Head Start,
which provide educational support services to young children and
families. Over 12 locations in Kent County in my district, as I men-
tioned. Due to the federal funding freeze last week, they are strug-
gling to draw down payments that they need to continue their crit-
ical services. Even after the memorandum has been rescinded, we
are still seeing roadblocks.
As an employer who helps their workers access childcare—and
kudos to you—would your businesses be impacted if those childcare
providers had to discontinue their services?
Ms. NEITZEL. Yes. A threat to the childcare system in our re-
gion and everywhere is a threat to workers being able to show up
and do their jobs, and it is a threat to us being able to be open.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady’s time is up.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you.
I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Stauber from the great State of Minnesota
for 5 minutes.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for holding this important
hearing today.
You know, during the past 4 difficult years under the Biden ad-
ministration, over 1,100 regulations were added—I will repeat that:
over 1,100 regulations were added—putting an enormous pressure
on our small businesses, costing nearly $1.8 trillion, adding more
than 356 million hours of paperwork.
You know, as we look forward to the future, we have to support
policies that support small businesses and the growth of our small
businesses. It is important to understand the hurdles that still re-
main.
Mr. New, what are some of the most challenging regulations that
you have faced when servicing the offshore oil and gas industries?
Mr. NEW. There is a number of regulations that apply directly—
not directly to us but to our customers that increase their costs of

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doing business, doesn’t permit them to do projects because the per-
mitting timeline is drawn out. And that directly impacts us in the
fact that our business is totally dependent on our customers devel-
oping facilities and building new equipment, and if they are not
doing that, then there is no work for us. And that certainly—you
know, obviously, it makes it a struggle to maintain our employ-
ment.
And, you know, on the tax side, you know, particularly the accel-
erated depreciation allows me to invest in new equipment. What
that does in the long run—I mean, that makes us more productive,
but what that does is that allows our employees to be more produc-
tive.
Mr. STAUBER. Yeah.
Mr. NEW. And that is the one area where you have lasting wage
growth, is, if my employees are more productive, I can pay more.
Mr. STAUBER. Yeah.
Mr. NEW. And that is really—when you look from an economic
side, that is the only place that can come from.
Mr. STAUBER. Right.
Mr. NEW. It has to come from enhanced productivity.
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Hutter, same question. What are some of the
most challenging regulations that you have faced in your industry?
Mr. HUTTER. Well said, Mr. New.
I would like to really focus that on permitting, if I may, because
I think that we are in a scenario right now where, to secure the
strategic materials that we need, especially in—I look at that
through the defense supply chain—we need to have sensible min-
ing permitting, right? We need to keep moving on this to secure the
materials we need for our power supply. Now, we are not extremely
energy-intensive ourselves, but we use input materials that need to
be made here in the United States that require reliable and sizable
energy inputs too create them—alloyed metals, thermoplastics,
coming from Bill’s side of the world.
And I just would highlight, on that permitting side, that really
we are talking about infrastructure of all sorts here, whether it is
minerals extraction or whether it is power plants or whether it is
distribution and other infrastructure.
And so, when I think about the opportunities for power sources
of the future, okay—modern advanced nuclear, windmills, solar
panels—all of these things have to be connected to the grid using
infrastructure that has to be permitted. We have to seize this mo-
ment here for this country, and we have to make that sensible and
get going on it.
And one of the things that I really look forward to, that I get to
see in my slice of the world, are the opportunities for advanced aer-
ial mobility, okay? Electrified or hydrogen-enabled clean transpor-
tation for the future. Well, how are we going to distribute that elec-
tricity to airports and rooftops where they have never been before?
How are we going to develop that hydrogen infrastructure?
All of this is only going to move at the speed of permitting. And
so we need to clean that up now.
Mr. STAUBER. I really appreciate that, the permitting and the
NEPA regulations, what are stifling growth. I mean, you look at an
average mine opening in the United States of America is 29 years?

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Mr. HUTTER. Sure.
Mr. STAUBER. The only country that is longer is the country of
Zambia. Give me a break, right? We need these minerals. And we
know right now China is using that against us. They are stopping
their exporting of antimony and other critical minerals that we
need.
Okay. With a simple ‘‘yes’’ or ‘‘no,’’ would you agree that extend-
ing the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act tax provisions would have a positive
impact on your ability to reinvest in your workforce?
Mr. Hutter?
Mr. HUTTER. Absolutely.
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. New?
Mr. NEW. Absolutely.
Mr. STAUBER. Ms. Frazier?
Ms. FRAZIER. Absolutely.
Mr. STAUBER. We have heard loud and clear that these tax
credits are a lifeline for small businesses. My colleagues on the
other side of the aisle should remember this when they vote, be-
cause standing in the way of these policies means standing in the
way of Main Street America.
Small businesses, we have always said, are the engine of our
economy. We have to protect them and allow them to grow and
prosper on the streets of this great nation.
Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
And I now recognize Ms. Simon from the great State of Cali-
fornia for 5 minutes.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you so much.
And, Mr. Chair, like others on this Committee, I offer my condo-
lences from a very deep place, also having lost my husband. I am
hoping that Members in this building continue to shed love and
prayers on you forever. And thank you for leading today.
I also want to thank you, Mr. Chair, for working with my office
to submit a bill that would protect small-business owners from the
waste and abuse of criminals who did the wrong thing during the
pandemic and took advantage of this Committee and of our federal
government.
There are small businesses around the country that know that
they serve as the lifeblood of their communities, and they deserve
ongoing support. In fact, you know, last week, during my first
workweek, I was able to meet with the field representatives in the
Small Business Administration’s field office in the Bay Area. Won-
derful folks, who literally that morning learned that all of the re-
sources that they had for the thousands of small businesses in my
community, they were on freeze.
Nevertheless, they were willing to work with my office and my
newly hired, very excited staff to go door to door in the seven cities
that I represent to ensure that we were still going to work and that
we cared that employment rates would continue to rise. We wanted
to make sure that our small businesses were paying taxes to sup-
port our police and fire.
And yet, only hours later—only hours later—we got a call from
the young woman that I was talking to who worked at the Small

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Business Administration saying that she got a letter asking for her
resignation.
We are in trouble.
So I have one quick question—and thank you for opening up an
ice cream store. As a widow and a single mom, sometimes one of
the small luxuries that I had in the darkest days was going to a
small business and just being able to sit and talk to a small-busi-
ness owner. I can’t wait to taste your product at some point.
I know I missed a lot of this hearing, because I am outside trying
to defend this democracy as it continues to fall down. I am curious:
In your speaking with other small-business owners, what has been
some of the fallout and anxiety over this chaos, over this freeze?
One day we are hearing one thing, and the other day we are
hearing another. The portals are closed. Phones aren’t being an-
swered. Folks are trying to employ real people in communities and
pay their rents.
Can you give me a number of examples, in the 2 minutes that
I have left, about what this fallout really means for real commu-
nities in terms of public safety and employment?
Ms. NEITZEL. Well, many of the people that we have heard from
at Main Street Alliance run childcare centers who are very scared
of the funding freeze. So those are big examples. And one childcare
center may take care of 45 or even 100 children. That is 100 or 200
parents who now can’t go participate in the economy. So that has
been a pretty huge one.
Another thing——
Ms. SIMON. May I ask a question?
Ms. NEITZEL. Yes.
Ms. SIMON. When a student, particularly a community college
student, a poor single mother, let’s say, like a teen mom, like I was,
who went to community college and who used the neighborhood
daycare center that got federal funds—now I have a master’s de-
gree—what happens when a single mother doesn’t have childcare?
Ms. NEITZEL. Well, if she can’t go to work, she may lose her job.
Ms. SIMON. And what happens when she loses her job?
Ms. NEITZEL. If women and parents are losing their jobs be-
cause of a lack of childcare, it is sending them into a spiral to pov-
erty quickly. If they can’t feed their children because they can’t
work and they can’t pay their rent—we have an endemic of home-
lessness in this country, many of which are children, and things
like this only push us closer to more of that.
Ms. SIMON. Ma’am, so are you alluding to what may in fact be—
could be fact, that the EOs and that this very disillusioned commu-
nication from our administration about freezes and payouts could
in fact cause our communities to be less safe, cause our single
mothers to be less employed, folks may in fact have to drop out of
college? Is that what you are implying, ma’am?
Ms. NEITZEL. Yeah. The federal funding freeze is going to cause
people to lose their jobs and push us toward recession.
Ms. SIMON. But, ma’am, in my last 15 seconds, the administra-
tion says that the freeze is only—it may only be for a few seconds,
a few days, a few weeks. What are the implications? And after your
answer, I will yield.

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Ms. NEITZEL. The chaos is deafening for the small-business
community in every way.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you.
I will yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And I would like to say something just real quick that I should
have said, I failed to talk about when we started the hearing, is
that you will periodically see many of us—you have seen it today—
leave, come in, go back, go forth. You have seen Ranking Member
do it; you have seen me do it. We are going to other committee
hearings that we have. We are not mad at you or whatever. But
I do want to make that—because that sometimes confuses people,
that we all come and go and so forth. So that is what you saw there
today.
I want to say thank you to the witnesses for their testimony and
for appearing before us today.
Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to submit ad-
ditional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the
Chair, which will be forwarded to the witnesses.
I ask the witnesses to please respond promptly.
And if there is no further business, without objection, the Com-
mittee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:26 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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APPENDIX

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 52 here 58532.005

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 54 here 58532.007

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 57 here 58532.010

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 58 here 58532.011

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 59 here 58532.012

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 60 here 58532.013

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 65 here 58532.018

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 70 here 58532.023

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 75 here 58532.028

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 79 here 58532.032

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 92 here 58532.045

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SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER Insert offset folio 97 here 58532.050

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File and source

File: CHRG-119hhrg58532.pdf
Size: 23,807,439 bytes
SHA-256: 1f54ed3ddd758fff8857a8103c3f7a65d979f921196a129fe261b48ed97c94f5
Our copy: CHRG-119hhrg58532.pdf
Original: www.govinfo.gov