H.r. 4666, H.r. 4667, H.r. 4480, H.r. 4670, H.r. 4668, H.r. 4669, H.r. 4671, H.r. 3995 (House Small Business Committee hearing, July 18, 2023)

Summary

Transcript of the House Committee on Small Business markup of H.R. 4666, H.R. 4667, H.R. 4480, H.R. 4670, H.R. 4668, H.R. 4669, H.R. 4671 and H.R. 3995 on July 18, 2023, published as Small Business Committee Document Number 118–023. Chairman Roger Williams and Ranking Member Nydia Velázquez gave opening statements. Ms. Van Duyne offered an amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R. 3995, and Representatives Velázquez, Phillips, Chu and Davids offered amendments to it. The committee adopted H.R. 3995 as amended by 14 ayes to 12 nays and reported it favorably to the House. The appendix includes Rep. Marc Molinaro's remarks on the POST IT Act and letters from the Committee to Unleash Prosperity and the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used

Cite this document

“H.r. 4666, H.r. 4667, H.r. 4480, H.r. 4670, H.r. 4668, H.r. 4669, H.r. 4671, H.r. 3995 (House Small Business Committee hearing, July 18, 2023).” Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/h-r-4666-h-r-4667-h-r-4480-h-r-4670-h-r-4668-h-r-4669-h-r-4671-h-r-399-5c2ca55eb1/, SHA-256 054eafde9ac91f77072818b88001d41a0a47ed25ac65805bc64fa4d1bc899b61.

Full text

H.R. 4666, H.R. 4667, H.R. 4480, H.R. 4670,
H.R. 4668, H.R. 4669, H.R. 4671, H.R. 3995

HEARING
BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION

HEARING HELD
JULY 18, 2023

Small Business Committee Document Number 118–023
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov

U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
55–468 WASHINGTON : 2024
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TRACEY MANN, Kansas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARC MOLINARO, New York
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
ELI CRANE, Arizona
AARON BEAN, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
NICK LALOTA, New York
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
JARED GOLDEN, Maine
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ, Washington
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
SHRI THANEDAR, Michigan
JUDY CHU, California
SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire

BEN JOHNSON, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director

(II)
CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................ 1
Hon. Nydia Velázquez ............................................................................................. 2

APPENDIX
Additional Material for the Record:
H.R. 4666 ........................................................................................................... 47
H.R. 4667 ........................................................................................................... 50
H.R. 4480 ........................................................................................................... 55
H.R. 4670 ........................................................................................................... 60
H.R. 4668 ........................................................................................................... 69
H.R. 4669 ........................................................................................................... 72
H.R. 4671 ........................................................................................................... 76
H.R. 3995 ........................................................................................................... 79
Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R. 3995 Offered by Ms.
Van Duyne ..................................................................................................... 81
Amendment to the Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R.
3995 Offered by Ms. Velázquez .................................................................... 83
Amendment to the Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R.
3995 Offered by Mr. Phillips ........................................................................ 84
Amendment to the Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R.
3995 Offered by Ms. Chu .............................................................................. 85
Amendment to the Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R.
3995 Offered by Ms. Davids ......................................................................... 86
Committee to Unleash Prosperity ................................................................... 87
Competitive Enterprise Institute .................................................................... 113
Construction Association .................................................................................. 116
Remarks of Rep. Marc Molinaro on the POST IT Act ................................... 117
Remarks of Rep. Dan Meuser on the Corrective Action Report Oversight
and Accountability Act (Gluesenkamp-Perez/Meuser) ............................... 118
Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council Letter .................................. 120
Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council Second Letter ..................... 122

(III)
MARKUP OF: H.R. 4666, A BILL TO REQUIRE
THE SBA OIG TO SUBMIT QUARTERLY RE-
PORTS ON PPP/EIDL FRAUD; H.R. 4667, THE
RECLAIM TAXPAYER FUNDS ACT; H.R. 4480,
THE SERV ACT; H.R. 4670, THE SMALL BUSI-
NESS CONTRACTING TRANSPARENCY ACT
OF 2023; H.R. 4668, POST IT ACT; H.R. 4669,
DOE AND SBA RESEARCH ACT; H.R. 4671,
THE CORRECTIVE ACTION REPORT OVER-
SIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY ACT; H.R.
3995, THE SMALL BUSINESS REGULATORY
REDUCTION ACT

TUESDAY, JULY 18, 2023

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:55 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
man of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van Duyne,
Salazar, Ellzey, Alford, Crane, Bean, LaLota, Velázquez, Phillips,
Scholten, Thanedar, Chu, and Davids.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. We are ready to get started. And
before we get started officially, we are going to say the Pledge of
Allegiance and a short prayer. Representative Meuser will lead us.
Mr. MEUSER. My honor, Chairman.
Please bow your heads.
Let us all appreciate, Dear Lord, the glory and beauty of this
day. We undoubtedly will face many struggles. In some cases, we
will disagree. In some cases, we will agree. But give us the
strength and peace to keep you in mind to work for the moral good
and perform our patriotic duty to our Constitution and our country,
the United States of America. Amen.
Please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
And to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, in-
divisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. The Committee will now come to
order.
(1)
2

A quorum is present, and without objection, the Chair is author-
ized to declare a recess of the Committee at any time.
As required by House rules, a copy of the legislative measures
have been made available to Members and the public at least 24
hours in advance. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and House Rule
11, all votes will be rolled to the end of this meeting.
I now recognize myself for opening remarks.
We welcome everybody here today. And today’s markup is here
to discuss eight bills that address the various needs of Main Street
America. Frankly put, our nation’s small business entrepreneurs
and innovators have faced some of the strongest economic
headwinds in recent memory over the past 2 years. Here on this
Committee, it is our job to be the strongest advocate for small busi-
nesses as they are at the heart of each of our communities and em-
ployees of nearly 62 million Americans. That is why our work here
is so important and why we must get our economy back on track
and our workforce motivated.
Furthermore, it is our job to produce policy solutions to ensure
the federal government is held accountable, especially on behalf of
the American taxpayer. The contents of these eight bills have been
thoroughly discussed by our Members. My colleagues and I are
proud of our hearings, our resulting in legislative action to keep
and help address the major issues facing Main Street America.
Before us today are bills that address some of the shortcomings
of the SBA as identified by the Office of Inspector General. Fur-
ther, these bills address regulatory burdens, assist veterans in
their access to capital, enable follow-up guidance on rulemaking
and support collaborative research for small businesses.
I want to thank our Members for bringing these bills forward as
they represent the work and devotion of our Committee as a whole,
as well as the Ranking Member and her staff by working hand in
hand with us to come up with bipartisan policy solutions to address
the issues impacting main street.
I ask unanimous consent for four letters of support for our legis-
lation to be entered into the record.
Without objection it is so ordered.
So, with that I look forward to today’s markup, and I yield to the
distinguished Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velázquez, for
her opening statement.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
holding this markup today.
I am committed to working in a bipartisan manner to enact legis-
lation that assists small businesses, as well as conduct rigorous
oversight of SBA’s programs.
The past 3 years have been extremely challenging for small busi-
nesses. SBA provided more than $1.2 trillion in pandemic relief,
which enabled small businesses to navigate the pandemic and stay
afloat. Today, we are seeing the benefit of that aid. Entrepreneurs
have started a record number of small businesses who have created
jobs at a rapid pace. Small firms have paved the way for some of
the lowest unemployment rates in recent times and we got more
news, good news last week as annual inflation dropped to 3 per-
cent.
3

Despite the success of the pandemic relief programs, we know
bad actors took advantage of the programs. Last week, we learned
from the IG and SBA the extent of that fraud. And while the num-
bers are vastly different, we must work together to recover fraudu-
lent funds and ensure we learn best practices for the next global
catastrophe.
That is why I support this legislation to require the SBA and
OIG to submit quarterly reports detailing the amount of fraud.
I also support legislation requiring SBA to issue clear guidance
for borrowers, lenders, and financial institutions on how to return
PPP funds and implement a process for SBA to track the returned
funds.
But, our work does not end with the pandemic oversight as we
have many other challenges facing our small business community.
That is why I plan to lend my support to the bills we are marking
up today to help veterans, small contractors, and innovators.
It is important to note that we did not see eye to eye on these
bills at the beginning of the process, but through hard work of the
Chairman, bill sponsors, and Committee staff on both sides of the
aisle we were able to reach a compromise. And while I am proud
of those achievements, it is disappointing we failed to reach an
agreement on one bill, but it is my hope that we can continue to
work through those differences.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Now, does any other Member seek recognition for the purpose of
making an opening statement?
Okay. Seeing none, we will now move to the consideration of the
first bill.
H.R. 4666
The first bill we will mark up today is H.R. 4666, a bill to require
the SBA OIG to submit quarterly reporters on PPP and EIDL
fraud introduced by Mr. Bean and Mr. Mfume.
I now recognize the bill’s sponsor, Mr. Bean for a statement.
Mr. BEAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And a very
good morning to you. And good morning, Small Business Com-
mittee.
I am fired up to introduce the PPP/EIDL Fraud Report Act of
2023, alongside my good friend from Maryland, Mr. Mfume. This
bill will require the inspector general of the SBA to submit a report
to Congress every quarter that provides detailed updates con-
cerning the ongoing fraud investigations of the PPP and EIDL loan
program. Most importantly, Members, it will ensure that the re-
cently released report of the pandemic loan fraud program will not
be swept under the rug.
Specifically, the report shall include the dollar amount of all
loans covered that were made, the number of new fraud cases, sus-
pected fraud cases, the type of fraud identified in those cases, and
the number of fraud cases resolved to date.
Members, this stems from the shocking report and the jaw-drop-
ping meeting that we had last week where the inspector general
came and talked about the tremendous fraud that is now becoming
apparent over the COVID program. It included $200 billion in po-
tentially fraudulent COVID-19 loans that were distributed by the
4

SBA. The same report at that meeting, we learned that there were
more than 250,000 OIG Hotline complaints received since the start
of the pandemic, and more than 90,000 of these cases are suspected
to have fraud. It represents—are you ready for this? Did you hear
it last week? I will repeat it again. It is over 100 years of casework.
And so, we asked the inspector general. He said I am going to
climb that mountain. Together, we can do it. We want to be kept
in the loop. And so, 100 years of investigative casework. It only
happens in crazy town right here in D.C.
And by the way, one in five, if you are playing along at home and
you want to do the math, one in five loans are suspect of having
fraud. One in five. As the inspector general continues working on
the tens of thousands of investigative leads on the fraud, it is im-
portant for Congress to be kept up to date and that is what this
bill will do.
To close, Mr. Chairman and Members, I want to say to all the
fraudsters and thieves that stole our money, we are coming after
you. And so, to come after you, we need to be kept up. We are going
to prosecute. We are going to get our money back and we are going
to move forward.
I urge my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to support this
legislation.
And Mr. Chairman, I yield back the remainder of my time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
And now are there any other Members who wish to be recognized
for a statement on H.R. 4666?
Mr. MEUSER. Mr. Chairman, I ask to be recognized.
Chairman WILLIAMS. You are recognized.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As we discussed earlier in our hearing last week, the SBA’s in-
spector general detailed in his report that $200 billion of pandemic
loan dollars were potentially obtained fraudulently. This number
includes $64 billion or 8 percent of PPP and $136 billion or 44 per-
cent of the EIDL loans. We are thankful for the inspector general’s
work investigating potential fraud in these programs, as well as
tracking down or recovering those who have committed this fraud.
This legislation would simply require the inspector general to re-
port updated information on his ongoing fraud investigations to
Congress on a quarterly basis. This Committee very much needs to
take very seriously our role in overseeing the SBA’s loan programs,
especially the fraud that existed in these elite programs and pur-
sue the bad actors, bring them to justice, who fraudulently ob-
tained the tax dollars of our constituents and the American people.
I think we all should be very concerned and curious and accept as
our responsibility what were the entities that committed the fraud.
Were they particular banks? Were they outliers? Who are the
criminals? Where are the gaps in the system and what type of pen-
alties will take place to send a message that this will not be toler-
ated?
So, I thank my colleague, Mr. Bean from Florida for his leader-
ship on this legislation. I urge my colleagues to support its passage,
and I look forward to its swift consideration on the House floor.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
5

Are there any other Members who wish to be recognized for a
statement on H.R. 4666?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. You are recognized, Ranking Member.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to start off by thanking Representatives Bean and Mfume
for introducing H.R. 4666, which will better enable this Committee
to fulfill its oversight responsibilities.
During a worldwide pandemic of impressive proportions in which
our nation and our world were on the brink of economic peril, the
SBA stepped in and acted as a lifeline to keep America’s small
businesses to remain open. Through PPP, EIDL, and other COVID-
related programs, the SBA distributed more than $1.2 trillion in
economic aid and executed 14 years of lending in 14 days.
During these unprecedented times, the SBA weakened and re-
moved its internal controls to disburse funds as quickly as possible.
Organized criminal syndicates, transnational gangs, and other
criminals exploited this weakened control in order to steal from the
American people. The legislation we are considering here today will
help this Committee better understand the data. This legislation
requires the SBA inspector general to send periodic reports to this
Committee for the next 2 years with detailed information regarding
the status of fraud cases, as well as the number of cases that has
been resolved. While one dollar in fraudulent activity is certainly
one dollar too many, I think it is important to consider how our
work here today will help this Committee continue our effort to
root out fraud where it exists.
I urge my colleagues to support this legislation, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you, Ranking Member.
And I now recognize myself to speak in support of this legisla-
tion.
I agree with the gentleman from Florida that it is essential for
Congress to be informed regularly of ongoing investigations con-
cerning COVID-19 pandemic lending fraud. The need for this bill
was demonstrated last week during our Committee hearing where
we examined two recent reports that investigated fraud in the
COVID-19 pandemic lending program. These contradicting reports,
one from the SBA’s Office of Inspector General and the other from
the Small Business Administration, raised serious concerns. The
SBA Inspector General report concluded the SBA disbursed more
than $200 billion in potentially fraudulent loans through pandemic
relief programs while the SBA reported that the fraud in these pro-
grams is closer to $36 billion. This massive discrepancy, more than
$160 billion, demands answers.
And I greatly appreciate the work that the Office of Inspector
General has done thus far to begin uncovering the extent of this
fraud, including appearing before the Committee last week to an-
swer questions from our Members about their findings.
I want to again voice my total disappointment that the SBA Ad-
ministrator Guzman declined her invitation to be part of the con-
versation and answer questions about both the IG report and the
SBA’s findings. For such an important topic involving the abuse of
billions of hard-earned taxpayer dollars, Americans deserve an-
6

swers, they deserve better, which is what this bill sets to accom-
plish.
I want to thank my colleague from Florida, Mr. Bean, and my
colleague from Maryland, Mr. Mfume, for introducing this bill. I
also urge my colleagues to support it.
If there is no further discussion, the Committee now moves to
consideration of H.R. 4666. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. H.R. 4666, to require the Inspector General——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 4666 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment.
Does anyone wish to offer an amendment?
All right. Seeing none, the question is now on adoption of H.R.
4666 and ordering it favorably reported to the House.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. And H.R. 4666 is
agreed to and ordered favorably to the House.
Mr. BEAN. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Mr. Bean, for what purpose does the gen-
tleman seek recognition?
Mr. BEAN. Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of requesting a re-
corded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on this bill are postponed.
H.R. 4667
The next bill we will mark up today is H.R. 4667, The RECLAIM
Taxpayer Funds Act introduced by Ms. Salazar and Mr. McGarvey.
I now recognize the bill’s sponsor, Ms. Salazar, for an opening
statement.
Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This bill, The RECLAIM Taxpayer Funds of 2023 requires the
Small Business Administration, the SBA, to establish processes to
account for fraudulent and unused PPP loans as recommended by
the inspector general who we spoke to last week in this Committee.
The SBA will work with the Treasury Department to make sure
those funds are returned to the taxpayers now, as soon as possible.
Last year, the inspector general found that the SBA did not have
the ability to handle fraudulent PPP loans, and today, inquiries
from borrowers and lenders have gone unanswered. And as a re-
sult, hard-earned taxpayer dollars in the millions are being wasted.
This bill addresses this problem immediately by requiring the SBA
to establish guidance for borrowers and lenders to return the
money now.
While the Committee continues to uncover the extent of the
fraud in the PPP loans, I urge my colleagues to support this com-
mon-sense bill that is a step towards restoring integrity to govern-
ment lending and dignity back to the taxpayers.
I want to thank Representative McGarvey from Kentucky in join-
ing me on this legislation, and I ask my colleagues to vote yes on
The RECLAIM Taxpayer Funds Act.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
7

I now recognize the bill’s co-sponsor, Mr. McGarvey, for an open-
ing statement.
Okay. Are there any other Members who wish to be recognized
for a statement on H.R. 4667?
Okay. Seeing none, I would like to recognize the Ranking Mem-
ber to speak on the bill.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
While Mr. Bean and Mr. Mfume’s legislation will enable us to
oversee the investigation and prosecution of potentially fraudulent
PPP loans, Representatives Salazar and Mr. McGarvey’s legislation
will help ensure any unused PPP funds are properly returned to
the American taxpayer. H.R. 4667 requires the SBA to issue guid-
ance and rules for lenders and borrowers on how they are to handle
and return unused PPP loans to the SBA. Importantly, this legisla-
tion directs SBA to issue detailed guidance for financial institutions
on how they are to return PPP funds even if they suspect the bor-
rower acquired the funds through fraudulent means. The IGs May
report points to the SBA lack of guidance, regulations, and ability
to account for return PPP funds as a central obstacle for lenders
and borrowers returning unused PPP funds to the administration.
The lack of guidance and regulation has led to confusion for bor-
rowers and lenders, leaving some lenders to even inform borrowers
that the SBA could not accept funds. This bill resolves the problem
by codifying the IG’s recommendation and requiring the SBA to es-
tablish clear and detailed guidance. The legislation will also re-
quire the SBA to establish a process on how it will deposit unused
funds in the Treasury Department’s general fund.
I want to thank Ms. Salazar and Mr. McGarvey for introducing
this important piece of legislation. I also want to thank Chair Wil-
liams and his team for incorporating many of our suggestions and
working with our side in a bipartisan manner. I think this has re-
sulted in a better outcome.
I urge my colleagues to support the bill. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you, Ranking Member.
And I now recognize myself to speak in support of this legisla-
tion.
H.R. 4667, a bill to require the SBA administrator to issue guid-
ance on the return of PPP funds is a measure to begin restoring
integrity in government lending. As we learned from the inspector
general over the last few weeks, of the $1.2 trillion in taxpayer
money that was designed to be disbursed into small businesses
during the pandemic, at least $200 billion, or 17 percent, is sus-
pected to have been fraudulently disbursed and this is unaccept-
able. As we continue to dig our way through the mountains of data
to fully understand the scope of this fraud, there are actions that
can be taken now to claw back some of the potentially fraudulent
money, actions which have been recommended to the SBA more
than once by the inspector general.
In May of this year, the inspector general reported that two fi-
nancial institutions have frozen about $95 million in PPP loan de-
posits that they suspected of fraudulent activity. However, these in-
stitutions have not returned these taxpayer funds to the govern-
ment because they did not have sufficient guidance on how to do
so. This problem is long overdue for a solution, and I agree with
8

the gentlelady from Florida that her bill addresses this problem
head-on by requiring the SBA to heed the inspector general’s rec-
ommendations and establish proper guidance to accept, process,
and account for potentially fraudulent and unused PPP loan funds.
I want to thank my colleague from Florida, Ms. Salazar, and my
colleague from Kentucky, Mr. McGarvey, for introducing this bill.
I urge my colleagues to support H.R. 4667.
If there is no further discussion, the Committee now moves to
consideration of H.R. 4667. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. H.R. 4667, to require the Administrator——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 4667 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment.
Does anyone wish to offer an amendment?
All right. Seeing none, the question is now on adoption of H.R.
4667 and ordering it favorably reported to the House.
All those in favor say aye.
All opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. And H.R. 4667 is
agreed to and ordered favorably to the House.
Ms. SALAZAR. Yeah. I would like to ask for a recorded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A Member asked for a recorded vote. A
recorded vote has been requested and a roll call vote is ordered.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and House Rule 11, further pro-
ceedings on the bill are postponed.
H.R. 4480
The next bill we will mark up is H.R. 4480, the SERV Act intro-
duced by Ms. Davids and Mr. Alford.
I now recognize the bill’s sponsor, Ms. Davids, for an opening
statement.
Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Our nation’s veterans are uniquely prepared to become entre-
preneurs and to lead small businesses. Military experience helps to
develop highly transferable training and skills that have prepared
them for leadership roles in the private sector. But veterans also
face specific challenges in developing and starting a business. One
significant obstacle being lack of access to capital, forcing many
small businesses to turn to alternative or online lenders which can
be more expensive than traditional sources.
And while this challenge exists certainly for all potential entre-
preneurs and small business owners, it can be especially difficult
for veterans who often have trouble accruing the credit necessary
to attract and attain capital.
The U.S. Small Business Administration works closely with the
VA and the Department of Defense on several excellent programs
specifically designed to help our veterans transition to civilian life
and to entrepreneurship. But as veterans who recently testified in
this Committee could attest, those programs are not always as easy
to find as they should be.
These are problems the SERV Act is working to address. This
bill would commission a Government Accountability Office report
on the ability of veterans and reservists to access capital and credit
which are crucial building blocks to opening a business. This report
would include analysis on common sources of credit and how de-
ployment of our service members affects their individual credit.
9

This bill also requires an interagency taskforce to develop an action
plan for greater outreach of the programs that already exist for vet-
erans transitioning into the business world. That taskforce would
report its findings annually to Congress on how the SBA can better
support our veterans, service-disabled veterans, and our reservists.
Our service members and their families already sacrifice a lot for
our country, and it is definitely our duty to support them however
we can, both during and after their service. And while programs
through the SBA are just one part of that overall support, our vet-
erans should absolutely be able to utilize them and grow their busi-
nesses to take care of their families and contribute to our economy.
I want to also thank Representative Alford for his partnership in
introducing this bill and I would encourage my colleagues to vote
in favor of the SERV Act and support successful entrepreneurship
for our veterans.
With that I yield my time. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back. And thank you.
I now recognize the bill’s cosponsor, Mr. Alford, for an opening
statement.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I rise today to speak in favor of the Successful Entrepreneurship
for Reservists and Veterans Act, also known as the SERV Act. Rep-
resentative Davids of Kansas and I are cosponsoring this important
legislation because our nation’s veterans have a tremendous impact
within our small business community. The skills veterans gain in
the military make them leaders uniquely positioned to start and
grow successful businesses. Unfortunately, veterans often face bar-
riers when starting or growing their business which can feel insur-
mountable at times.
You know, back in May we were in this very room, and we heard
from Missouri’s own Lieutenant Commander Taylor Burks. We
heard how the lack of awareness of resources available to veterans
and access to capital are major barriers and we need to change
that.
The SERV Act seeks to identify these barriers and directs the
interagency task force on veteran small business development to
create an action plan to improve outreach to veterans informing
them of available resources. Our veterans deserve the SERV Act,
and I ask that you vote yes on the SERV Act.
And I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Are there any other Members who wish to be recognized for a
statement on H.R. 4480?
All right. Seeing none, I would like to recognize the Ranking
Member to speak on the bill.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to thank both Ms. Davids and Mr. Alford for calling
on GAO, one of the most highly regarded organizations in our fed-
eral government to produce a fact-based, independent report and
also requiring the SBA to develop an outreach plan to increase
awareness of their vital programs. I want to thank them and the
Chairman and the staff for working on this legislation and I urge
a yes vote.
And I yield back my time.
10

Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
And let me say H.R. 4480, the Successful Entrepreneurship for
Reserves and Veterans Act of 2023 ensures our nation’s veterans
and reservists receive the assistance they need when they look to
start a small business of their own. This legislation orders the Gov-
ernment Accountability Office to study and report on credit access
to veteran and reservist small businesses. It also orders the inter-
agency task force on veteran small business development to de-
velop and report a plan to promote programs to veterans. Our na-
tion’s veterans and reservists have dedicated their lives to fighting
for this country and it is vital that we provide them with the re-
sources they need to become successful entrepreneurs. I, like many
of my colleagues, represent military bases in my district and I un-
derstand just how important it is that these resources are acces-
sible.
I want to thank my distinguished Committee colleagues, Rep-
resentatives Davids and Alford, for introducing and cosponsoring
this bill. I urge my colleagues to support H.R. 4480.
If there is no further discussion, the Committee now moves to
consideration of H.R. 4480. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. H.R. 4480, to require the Administrator——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 4480 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment. Does anyone wish to offer
an amendment?
Okay. Seeing none, the question is now on adoption of H.R. 4480
and ordering it favorably reported to the House.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. And H.R. 4480 is
agreed to and ordered favorably to the House.
Ms. DAVIDS. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member is recognized.
Ms. DAVIDS. I would like to request a recorded vote, please.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on the bill are now postponed.
H.R. 4670
The next bill we will mark up is H.R. 4670, The Small Business
Contracting Transparency Act of 2023. It is introduced by Ms.
Houlihan and Mr. Stauber.
I now recognize the bill’s cosponsor, Mr. Stauber, for an opening
statement.
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Chairman, I rise today to speak in favor of
The Small Business Contracting Transparency Act. The Small
Business Administration is charged with ensuring that only eligible
firms are participating in the women-owned small business con-
tracting program, HUB-Z program, and recently added service-dis-
abled, veteran-owned small business program. These programs are
essential for fostering economic growth and providing opportunities
for small businesses to thrive. Government agencies set aside con-
tract opportunities for small businesses in these programs. Delays
in certifying or recertifying procedures can have devastating con-
sequences for these entrepreneurs.
11

This is a critical issue that affects small businesses in Minnesota
and across our nation. Unfortunately, there is limited information
from the SBA about certification and subsequent recertification
processes. Additionally, the SBA recognizes women-owned small
business certifications from third-party certifiers which further
lessens transparency. The Small Business Contracting Trans-
parency Act would bring much needed insight into the activities of
certifying these firms, what fees are being charged, and whether
SBA is meeting its requirements. By supporting the Small Busi-
ness Contracting Transparency Act, you will not only provide valu-
able assistance to small businesses but also ensure accountability
and effectiveness in the administration of these programs.
I ask that we all vote yes on The Small Business Contracting
Transparency Act, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
And I now recognize Ms. Scholten for a statement.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am proud to speak as an original cosponsor of The Small Busi-
ness Contracting Transparency Act sponsored by Congresswoman
Houlihan and Congressman Stauber.
The federal government spends almost half a trillion annually on
the purchase of goods and services needed for its daily operation.
Yet, the federal marketplace is a hard space to break into, espe-
cially for small business owners. The Small Business Administra-
tion plays an important role in ensuring that small businesses
owned by women, veterans, and economically disadvantaged indi-
viduals are able to compete in the federal procurement process. In
doing so, SBA tracks where federal procurement dollars go in the
small business procurement scorecard. However, the scorecard in-
cludes small businesses that self-certify, as well as small busi-
nesses that are formally certified by the SBA. The Office of the In-
spector General has raised concerns on false self-certification,
which is why the SBA has made steps towards addressing this
issue. As of October 2022, SBA’s dynamic small business search
database included almost 150,000 firms that self-certified as small
and disadvantaged businesses.
This bill would ensure that the SBA is acquiring up-to-date data
on where federal procurement dollars are going. It would require
SBA to provide information to Congress on the implementation of
contracting certification changes to the women-owned small busi-
ness contracting program, the HUBZone program, and the service-
disabled, veteran-owned small business program. As Ranking
Member on the Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure,
this additional data will inform my Subcommittee’s work to ensure
that all small businesses are able to compete in the federal pro-
curement space.
I urge Members to vote yes on this important legislation.
Thank you, Chair. I yield back the remainder of my time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
And are there any other Members who wish to be recognized for
a statement on H.R. 4670?
Okay. Seeing none I would like to recognize the Ranking Member
to speak on the bill.
12

Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Chairman Williams. And thank
you to Ms. Houlihan, Mr. Stauber, and Ms. Scholten for their col-
laboration on H.R. 4670.
Empowering female entrepreneurs, and specifically boosting
small women-owned companies in the federal marketplace con-
tinues to be a top Committee and personal priority. One way we
do this is by conducting proper oversight of the tools available to
SBA that are designed to level the playing field for women-owned
government contracting firms. The WOSB program is one such tool
and a critically important program. Given the delays in setting up
the certification program at issue in this bill, additional oversight
is granted. This legislation will help maintain the integrity of the
program and ensure it works for women business owners as in-
tended. That is why I am pleased to support it, and I appreciate
the bipartisan work to build in the HUBZone and SD/VOSB pro-
grams. They face similar issues and will benefit from additional
oversight as well.
Thank you. I urge a yes vote and I yield back my time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
And now I want to recognize myself to speak in support of this
legislation.
This bill requires the SBA to provide a report on certification ac-
tivities and contract awards within the women-owned small busi-
ness, HUBZones, and service-disabled, veteran-owned small busi-
ness programs. It holds the SBA accountable by promoting greater
transparency and ensures the SBA is doing everything it can to
make sure that small businesses participating in contracting pro-
grams are truly eligible and that those eligible are being recertified
in an adequate amount of time and not stuck in the slow, ineffi-
cient bureaucratic process.
I want to thank my colleagues from Pennsylvania, Ms. Houlihan
and my colleague from Minnesota, Mr. Stauber, for introducing this
bill. I urge my colleagues to support this bill.
If there is no further discussion, the Committee now moves to
consideration of H.R. 4670. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. H.R. 4670, to amend the Small Business Act to re-
quire——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 4670 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment.
Does anyone wish to offer an amendment?
Seeing none, the question is now on adoption of H.R. 4670 and
ordering it favorably reported to the House.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. And H.R. 4670 is
agreed to and ordered favorably to the House.
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Chair, I would ask for a recorded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been asked and re-
quested and a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule
13 and House Rule 11, further proceedings on this bill are post-
poned.
H.R. 4668
This next bill we will mark up is H.R. 4668, the POST IT Act
introduced by Mr. Molinaro and Ms. Scholten.
13

I now recognize the bill’s sponsor. Mr. Molinaro is not here so I
will speak for him. He is unable to join us right now, but I would
ask unanimous consent for his remarks as prepared for delivery be
entered into the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
Now, are there any other Members who wish to be recognized for
a statement on H.R. 4668?
All right. Seeing none, I would like to recognize the Ranking
Member to speak on the bill.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you. And thank you to Mr. Molinaro
and Ms. Scholten for working together on the introduction of the
POST IT Act.
In the last Congress, our Committee approved the One Stop Shop
Act which required the Office of the National Ombudsman to create
and maintain a centralized website with hyperlinks to small busi-
ness compliance guidance. The legislation was enacted into law and
SBA recently launched the website which will make it easier for
small businesses to comply with federal rules and regulations. The
bill we are considering today will build upon that work by requir-
ing the Ombudsman to publish links to guidance documents for
rules that have been certified to have a significant economic impact
on a substantial number of entities. As we know, guidance docu-
ments helped inform small businesses of regulations, but they can
oftentimes be difficult to find. Having a centralized site with
hyperlinks to guidance documents affecting small businesses will
save entrepreneurs a significant amount of time.
I want to thank the sponsors of the legislation for working to-
gether in a bipartisan way to craft a bill that we can all support.
Thank you and I yield back my time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Ranking Member yields back.
I now recognize myself to speak in support of this legislation.
The POST IT Act is an important step in simplifying the process
for small businesses to comply with agency guidance. While allow-
ing great entrepreneurs to spend more time building their busi-
nesses and less on complying with needless regulations main street
can succeed.
I want to thank my colleague from New York, Mr. Molinaro, and
my colleague from Michigan, Ms. Scholten for introducing this bill.
I urge my colleagues to support H.R. 4668.
If there is no further discussion, the Committee now moves to
consideration of H.R. 4668. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. H.R. 4668, to amend the Small Business Act——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 4668 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment.
Does anyone wish to offer an amendment?
Seeing none, the question is now on adoption of H.R. 4668 and
ordering it favorably reported to the House.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. And H.R. 4668 is
agreed to and ordered favorably to the House.
Mr. CRANE. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. For what purpose does the gentleman
seek recognition?
14

Mr. CRANE. I request a recorded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on this bill are postponed.
H.R. 4669
The next bill we will mark up today is H.R. 4669, the DOE and
SBA Research Act introduced by Mr. LaLota and Mr. Thanedar.
I now recognize the bill’s sponsor, Mr. LaLota, for an opening
statement.
Mr. LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, as you know, the federal contracting process is in-
credibly complex. So complex in some cases the process frustrates
and drowns small business from applying for and being granted
federal contracts. My bill, the Department of Energy and Small
Business Administration Research Act, aims to make the process
a bit more simple. The Department of Energy is one of the largest
procurers of small businesses goods and services in the entire gov-
ernment. Through national laboratories, small businesses can play
a critical role in executing DOE’s mission.
My district is home to one of these labs, the Brookhaven Na-
tional Lab, and our lab prioritizes working with small businesses.
Suffolk County small businesses and Brookhaven have created a
mutually beneficial relationship based on cooperative research and
technical assistance. Despite this, far too often we hear about the
difficulties which small businesses have when trying to work with
the federal government. In many cases the issue begins with agen-
cies not reaching enough small businesses. The problems continue
with an application process that is bureaucratic and frustrating.
My DOE and SBA Research Act seeks to remedy this problem by
requiring the SBA and national labs to collaborate to ensure that
small businesses are better utilized. Working with the government
can be a maze, and this bill will help bring existing resources and
opportunities to innovative small businesses.
I ask that my colleagues vote yes on my bill, the DOE and SBA
Research Act.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back my time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Are there any other Members who wish to be recognized for a
statement on H.R. 4669?
All right. Seeing none, I would like to recognize the Ranking
Member to speak on the bill.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am pleased to lend my support to the DOE and SBA Research
Act led by Representative Nick LaLota and Mr. Thanedar. The leg-
islation will allow SBA and DOE to carry out crosscutting and col-
laborative research and development activities. Investments in re-
search and development is absolutely critical to providing high pay-
ing jobs for Americans and ensuring our country remains competi-
tive. By increasing coordination between the two federal agencies,
we will be able to maximize the effectiveness of our nation’s pre-
mier federal research and development programs. I applaud Mr.
LaLota and Mr. Thanedar for their bipartisan work, and I ask my
colleagues to support the legislation.
I yield back.
15

Chairman WILLIAMS. The Ranking Member yields back.
And I now recognize myself to speak in support of this legisla-
tion.
This Committee continues to hear from small business owners
how complex, difficult, and burdensome working with the govern-
ment can be. With greater collaboration, SBA and DOE can im-
prove the inclusion of small businesses through the mission of the
national labs. This bill will improve coordination, outreach, and uti-
lization of resources to better reach small businesses in need of
support. Small businesses bring unique and invaluable experience
to research and development.
I want to thank my colleagues from New York, Mr. LaLota, and
my colleague from Michigan, Mr. Thanedar, for introducing this
bill. I urge my colleagues to support this bill.
And if there is no further discussion, the Committee enow moves
to consideration of H.R. 4669. The clerk will report.
Mr. Thanedar, you are recognized for a statement.
Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Today I am voicing my strong support of the DOE and SBA Re-
search Act, recognizing the indispensable role it will play in en-
hancing collaboration among the Small Business Administration
and the Department of Energy, all in the name of improving re-
search and developmental efforts. Let’s not forget small businesses
form the backbone of this country. The innovation we stimulate
within this sector is not just important; it is vital for America’s fu-
ture.
This legislation does not simply propose research collaborations.
It carves a path for our small businesses to spearhead progress.
This act goes one step further. It mandates a collaborative report
within 2 years of its enactment. This is not just a bureaucratic re-
quirement; it is an essential stride towards maintaining the trans-
parency and accountability we owe to the people. This report will
empower us to monitor, and comprehend the effectiveness of our
research collaborations, providing us with the opportunity to revise
and refine strategies as necessary.
I am excited. I am a researcher myself having authored an SBIR
grant that I won when I was an entrepreneur running my re-
search-based business. So, I am excited. I hope you share my en-
thusiasm at the prospect of the growth and broadening of technical
capabilities that the DOE and SBA Research Act promises to bring
to our agencies. But let’s always keep sight of the ultimate goal of
this legislation, creating high paying jobs for our fellow Americans
and safeguarding our nation’s competitive edge on the global stage.
Remember, this is not just about legislation. It is about our future.
It is about empowering our workforce and about asserting and
maintaining our role as a beacon of technology and innovation in
a world that looks to us for leadership.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Now, if there is no further discussion, the Committee now moves
to consideration of H.R. 4669. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. H.R. 4669, to provide for department——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 4669 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment.
16

Does anyone wish to offer an amendment?
Okay. Seeing none, the question is now on adoption of H.R. 4669
and ordering it favorably reported to the House.
All those in favor say aye.
All opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it and H.R. 4669 is
agreed to and ordered favorably to the House.
Mr. LALOTA. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Seek recognition?
Mr. LALOTA. Mr. Chairman, I request a recorded vote, please.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on the bill are postponed.
H.R. 4671
The next bill we will mark up is H.R. 4671, a bill to reform cor-
rective action reports introduced by Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez and
Mr. Meuser.
I now recognize the bill’s sponsor, Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez for an
opening statement.
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Thank you, Chairman Williams,
for the opportunity. And thank you, Representative Meuser, for
leading this effort with me.
The SBA is tasked with ensuring that small businesses are given
a fair shot at competing for federal contracting dollars. These fed-
eral contracts can be an incredible financial opportunity for our na-
tion’s entrepreneurs, and Congress has established goals to award
a percentage of all prime and subcontracts to women-owned small
businesses, small, disadvantaged businesses, service-disabled, vet-
eran-owned small businesses, and HUBZone certified small busi-
nesses.
When federal agencies do not meet these established small busi-
ness goals, they are required to provide SBA with a corrective ac-
tion plan that details the steps that the agency will take the next
year to meet the unmet goals down the line. Many of these reports
contain valuable information about the actions federal agencies are
taking and intend to take to meet their small business contracting
goals. But these reports are not standardized across agencies. In
fact, many of them do not contain any oversight or accountability
mechanisms at all for agencies that fail to meet their small busi-
ness goals.
My bill will correct these discrepancies across federal agencies by
requiring all agencies to include information in these reports that
will provide clarity about small businesses’ participation as federal
contractors and will hold the agencies accountable for hitting their
small business benchmarks. I am grateful for Mr. Meuser’s part-
nership on this bill, and I am looking forward to the Committee’s
support.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Mr. Meuser is unable to join us right now, but I ask unanimous
consent for his remarks as prepared for delivery being entered into
the record.
Without objection, so moved.
17

Are there any other Members who wish to be recognized for a
statement on H.R. 4671?
Okay. Seeing none I would like to recognize the Ranking Member
to speak on this bill.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Chairman Williams.
I am proud to support this bipartisan work by Ms. Marie
Gluesenkamp Perez and Mr. Meuser on H.R. 4671 to give us the
reporting necessary to hold federal agencies accountable for their
efforts to grow small business success within the federal procure-
ment marketplace.
Many federal agencies meet or exceed their annual small busi-
ness goal in certain categories. Many others do not. And most are
unable year after year to ensure that women-owned businesses,
HUBZone designated businesses, and businesses run by service-
disabled veterans receive sufficient contracting opportunities. When
they fail to meet their goals, agencies are required to tell SBA how
they will improve. But then they move on and the next year they
do it again without any oversight of the previous proposal. The
changes in this bill hold agencies accountable by requiring them to
tell SBA first if they did what they said they would do; and second,
what happened as a result. And if it works, SBA will make that
information available to us, to the administration and to other
agencies so the proven methods can be shared and replicated. That
is why I am pleased to support the bill and I appreciate the bipar-
tisan work of the Committee to move it forward today.
Thank you and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Ranking Member yields back.
And I now recognize myself to speak in support of this legisla-
tion.
Declining participation of small businesses in the government
contracting space is a major concern for this Committee. While
more dollars than ever before have gone to small businesses, the
number of small businesses winning contracts has continued to de-
cline. This bill in part seeks to include additional reporting data to
get a better picture of why this is occurring.
I want to thank my colleague from Washington, Ms.
Gluesenkamp Perez, and my colleague from Pennsylvania, Mr.
Meuser, for introducing this bill. I urge my colleagues to support
this bill.
And if there is no further discussion, the Committee now moves
to consideration of H.R. 4671. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. H.R. 4671, to amend the Small Business——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, H.R. 4671 is consid-
ered as read and open for amendment.
Does anyone wish to offer an amendment?
Seeing none, the question is now on the adoption of H.R. 4671
and ordering it favorably reported to the House.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it. And H.R. 4671 is
agreed to.
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Mr. Chair? Mr. Chair, I ask for a
recorded vote.
18

Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on this bill are postponed.
H.R. 3995
The final bill we will mark up today is H.R. 3995, The Small
Business Regulatory Reduction Act introduced by Ms. Van Duyne.
I now recognize this bill’s sponsor, Ms. Van Duyne, for an open-
ing statement.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I have heard from countless small business owners back at home
in North Texas, but also in this Committee as well as in field hear-
ings that we have had across the country in Ways and Means. We
have had witnesses hold up binders full of regulations that they
must comply with from this administration and the message they
tell us is clear—the businesses are drowning in regulatory red
tape. I hope that my colleagues from both sides of the aisle can
agree with me when I say that the House Committee on Small
Business is committed to prioritizing the needs of our nation’s job
creators and their employees. My bill builds off the success of a
Trump era policy which required two federal regulations to be re-
scinded for each new one issued. It is unfortunate that one of Presi-
dent Biden’s first actions was to repeal this effective regulatory re-
duction act.
According to a recent report, the Biden administration has added
approximately $375 billion in regulatory costs per year. If you in-
clude his push to release and reduce student loan fees, that num-
ber goes up to $617 annually in costs.
Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to enter into the record
the Committee to Unleash Prosperity’s report titled Burden is
Back, comparing regulatory costs between Biden, Trump and
Obama.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much.
My bill will stop the unelected bureaucrats from continuing to in-
flict overreaching regulations on our small businesses. Specifically,
my bill will require the SBA to ensure that for each fiscal year the
cost of their own rulemaking is not greater than zero dollars. Fur-
ther, it requires the SBA to publish a report on regulations issued
by other federal agencies that impact small businesses. To be clear,
this bill is not preventing agencies from adding additional regula-
tions that are necessary and could improve small businesses. What
it is doing is saying they can no longer continue to put layer upon
layer of these regulatory burdens on our small businesses.
I urge support of this legislation, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Are there any other Members who wish to be recognized for a
statement on H.R. 3995?
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Recognized.
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Chairman, I rise to speak in favor of H.R.
3995, the Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act, a crucial piece
of legislation that impacts small businesses including those in Min-
nesota. During the Trump administration, our government adopted
the principle of one in, two out by repealing two regulations for
19

every new one introduced. It created an environment that pro-
moted economic growth and empowered small businesses to thrive.
Under the current administration, this policy has been rescinded
and replaced with an overregulation policy that has imposed nearly
$360 billion in new regulatory costs on small businesses. Minnesota
is known for its vibrant small business community, but the crush-
ing regulatory policies implemented by this administration, paired
with exorbitantly high inflation from their spending habits has left
our small businesses across the nation struggling.
By reducing excessive regulations, we will counter the actions of
this administration, provide a favorable environment for small
businesses to flourish, and reverse the economic trajectory of this
country. The Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act requires the
Small Business Administration to ensure that any new regulations
from their agency does not impose a cost on small businesses. Addi-
tionally, it mandates that the SBA report on regulations issued by
other federal agencies that directly impact small businesses. We
recognize the vital role small businesses play in our economy and
acknowledge their potential for growth and success. This bill is a
step forward in promoting fairness, accountability, and responsible
governance. It is essential that we support this bill to ensure the
success and vitality of small businesses not only in Minnesota but
all across the nation.
I urge you all to join me in voting yes on H.R. 3995, the Small
Business Regulatory Reduction Act. So let us stand together in em-
powering our small business community and fostering an environ-
ment that nurtures innovation, job creation, and economic pros-
perity. And I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Are there any other Members who wish to be recognized for a
statement on H.R. 3995?
All right. Seeing none, I would like to recognize the Ranking
Member to speak on this bill.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Throughout my tenure on the Committee, I have tried very hard
to work with my colleagues on both sides to put forth thoughtful
bipartisan bills that will make life easier for small business own-
ers. Today, we are considering a bill that will drive a wedge be-
tween the Members of this Committee who are all committed to
helping small businesses. This bill mandating a zero or negative
regulatory budget for SBA may sound good on the surface but it
will have the practical effect of limiting the SBA from issuing any
rules. As written, it will be incredibly difficult for SBA to adhere
to it. Unfortunately, I will not be able to lend my support to the
Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act. Everyone on this Com-
mittee wants to lessen the burden of regulations on small busi-
nesses but this bill falls short, and it will have the practical effect
of preventing the agency from issuing regulations to benefit small
businesses. Because of the unintended consequences of the bill, I
am opposed to the bill as drafted.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Ranking Member yields back.
And I now recognize myself to speak in support of this legisla-
tion.
20

H.R. 3995 is a win for Main Street America. As an advocate for
small business, the last thing the SBA should be doing is requiring
them to be spending their hard-earned dollars on complying with
their burdensome regulations and rules. This legislation is common
sense and should pass this Committee with broad bipartisan sup-
port.
I want to thank Ms. Van Duyne for her work on this legislation
and I urge my colleagues to support this bill.
If there is no further discussion, the Committee now moves to
consideration of H.R. 3995. The clerk will report.
The CLERK. H.R. 3995, to require the Administrator——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, 3995 is considered as
read and open for amendment.
There is an amendment in the nature of a substitute at the desk.
The amendment has been pre-distributed to all Members. The clerk
will report the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R.
3995——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read and the substitute will be considered as base text
for the purpose of further amendment.
I now recognize Ms. Van Duyne for a statement on her amend-
ment.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. My amendment makes conforming changes to
ensure the bill complies with 1-18-4 protocols.
And I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Do any other Members wish to be recognized for a statement on
the amendment?
Okay. If none, does anyone wish to offer an amendment?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Ms. Velázquez will seek recognition.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I have an amendment at the desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. For what purpose does the Ranking Mem-
ber seek recognition? Okay, there is an amendment at the desk.
The amendment has been pre-distributed to all Members.
The clerk will designate the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 3995 offered by Ms. Velázquez. Strike sec-
tion——
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read. Ranking Member Velázquez is recognized to ex-
plain her amendment.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The bill as written limits the ability of SBA to issue any sort of
regulation even if the benefits outweigh the costs. SBA needs to
issue regulations to update existing programs, issue disaster dec-
larations, and even reduce recordkeeping requirements. This bill
fails to define rules and explain which rules will be covered by a
regulatory budget. Agencies may be able to estimate the cost of a
regulation, but they do not have hard data on the costs that are
imposed. It will require the agency to make assumptions that could
turn out to be incorrect. There is nothing in the bill that clarifies
how the agency is to implement a regulatory budget and is there-
21

fore impractical. Let’s distill this issue into a real-world scenario.
No small businesses will fail to upgrade a piece of their equipment
if it only focuses on the cost. Small businesses are savvier than this
bill implies, and they look at the whole picture, cost and benefit.
I cannot support this bill because it could bring SBA’s rulemaking
to a halt and in turn limit its ability to improve its program and
services. To that end, my amendment will strike the regulatory
budget sections of the bill that are not workable and call for the
most appropriate office, the Office of Advocacy, to report on the
costs and benefits of rules to small businesses. After the report is
issued, we will have a better understanding of the impact a regu-
latory budget will have on small businesses.
I urge my colleagues to support my amendment, and I yield.
Yeah, that will be it, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Ranking Member yields back.
And does anyone else wish to be recognized for a statement on
Ms. Velázquez’s amendment?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the desk
as well.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Recognized.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Oh, I am sorry. Oh, it is on hers. I am sorry. For-
give me.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Does anybody wish to be recog-
nized for a statement on the amendment by Ms. Velázquez?
Okay. Seeing none, I now recognize myself for a statement on
Ms. Velázquez’s amendment.
While I appreciate this amendment recognizing agencies should
be doing cost benefit analyses on their proposed rules, I am going
to have to oppose the amendment because it undermines the inten-
tion of the congresswoman’s bill. The purpose of the underlying leg-
islation is to ensure agencies think twice before they continue to
burden small businesses with new regulations. If they want to have
a new rule that is going to be costly for businesses to comply, they
must cut other regulations in order to pay for it. Businesses should
not have to continually build increased compliance costs into their
budget. The American Action Form tracks how much regulations
have cost the private sector, and since President Biden took office,
the estimated cost is over $375 billion dollars. This is not sustain-
able. We need to provide regulatory relief for small businesses and
the underlying bill would begin to do just that. Again, I urge my
colleagues to oppose the amendment proposed by the Ranking
Member.
The question is now the Amendment 1 to H.R. 3995 offered by
Ranking Member Velázquez.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it. The amendment is
not agreed to.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I would like to request a recorded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on the amendment are post-
poned.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
22

Mr. PHILLIPS. Mr. Chairman, I now have an amendment at the
desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. For what purpose does the gentleman—
okay, now there is an amendment at the desk by Mr. Phillips. This
amendment has been pre-distributed to all Members.
The clerk will designate the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 3995 offered by Mr. Phillips of Minnesota.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Without objection, the amendment is con-
sidered as read.
Mr. Phillips is recognized to explain his amendment.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And let me associate myself with your remarks, ‘‘That agencies
should think twice before burdening small businesses with addi-
tional regulation.’’ I do agree. I have owned a number of small busi-
nesses and understand firsthand. Let me tell you how overly bur-
densome regulation is bad for business. I think we all agree with
that. Small enterprises often lack the resources to comply with di-
rectives from the federal government, especially compared to their
larger competitors. And as Members of this Committee, it is critical
that we advocate for the many millions of small businesses across
the country and that includes being mindful of the impact of fed-
eral regulation on small business.
So, I want to say I share common ground with you, Mr. Chair-
man, and my friend, Ms. Van Duyne, the author of the legislation.
Where I disagree is that I believe it is far too blunt and rigid and
would prove to be somewhat counterproductive to the intentions
and the interests of small business. I think the narrower require-
ments of the proposed small business regulatory budget will ham-
string the SBA in implementing even the most common-sense regu-
lations, ultimately preventing the agency from carrying out its core
mission. That is why I filed this amendment which proposes just
a few practical changes that I think would provide a more meas-
ured approach to the matter at hand. It would require the SBA to
simply ensure that the costs of its regulations do not exceed their
benefits. Consistent with the stated goal of the legislation, the pro-
vision would prevent SBA rule makers from cutting into the bottom
line of small businesses but calculate their impact on a more
thoughtful and comprehensive way. Too many, I believe, charac-
terize regulation as inherently negative but I believe that attitude
is an oversimplification of the issue. To be sure, overregulation is
bad but appropriate regulation I think we can all agree is essential.
So, if we are going to measure the impact that regulations have on
small business, we have to consider more than just half the equa-
tion. And I will just give you an example. Back to the early days
of COVID-19 when we came together and passed the CARES Act
and the all-important paycheck protection program. After the pro-
gram was established, SBA issued an interim final rule to imple-
ment it. This rule technically imposed minor costs on small busi-
nesses through its recordkeeping and reporting requirements. But
as I would like to think each of us on this Committee would agree,
the benefits of the PPP program far, far outweighed those costs.
But under the proposed rule before us, or legislation, the SBA’s
April 2020 rule for PPP would have been subject to the strict net
23

zero cost requirement, meaning that the SBA would have had to
find other regulations to cut in order to offset the cost of this essen-
tial rule even though the impact was clearly going to be over-
whelmingly beneficial for small businesses in the country. Imposing
this sort of requirement on SBA during the pandemic would have
wasted valuable time and energy when our country and economy
needed it most. Simply put, considering costs without benefits to
me is nonsensical. My great-grandfather used to tell me, Dean,
price is but one component of value. And I think that applies in
this case as well.
My amendment also offers an exemption for regulations issued
during periods of national emergency and regulations that address
fraud, waste, and abuse. Let me say it again. It would provide an
exemption for regulations that address fraud, waste, and abuse. We
need not look any further than just times of collective desperation
when a future pandemic may come, armed conflict or other types
of crises, we have to give the SBA the ability to act quickly and
decisively when small businesses are facing great challenge.
And when it comes to protecting the integrity of the SBA pro-
grams, we need not look further than last week’s hearing with the
Inspector General. When it comes to protecting the integrity of the
SBA programs, we need not look further than last week’s hearing
with the inspector general to recognize the bipartisan consensus to-
wards rooting out fraud, waste, and abuse at the SBA. I think all
of us on this Committee want to see the SBA be better stewards
of our taxpayer dollars. So, if the agency wants to issue a rule that
would strengthen its internal controls or enforcement capabilities,
we cannot let proposals like this underlying legislation stand in the
way.
Let me end by urging my colleagues on both sides of the aisle
to support this amendment which would, I think, improve the legis-
lation. The Committee has a long, proud history of bipartisanship
and I think it would be more productive to put our heads together
and find common ground rather than push this response to an
issue that so many of us care deeply about.
And let me just close by reading the amendment if I can find it,
which I cannot. Here it is. Just very quickly.
‘‘The Administrator of the Small Business Administration shall
ensure that the costs of the small business regulatory budget for
a fiscal year do not exceed the benefits except with respect rules
relating to eliminating fraud, waste, or abuse, or in a fiscal year
during which a national emergency is declared by the president
under the National Emergencies Act.’’ Those are the simple modi-
fications.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I ask for your support and yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Does anyone else wish to be recognized for a statement on Mr.
Phillips’s amendment?
Mr. Bean, you are recognized.
Mr. BEAN. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I did not think
I would talk but I do want to talk because I want to tell everybody
the official title of this bill is the Small Business Regulatory Reduc-
tion Act. That is the official title.
24

Let me give you the unofficial title. It is The Enough Act.
Enough. Small business owners are saying enough. Because if you
are playing along at home and keeping score, I just happen to have
the score of what our current administration has loaded up on
small business just in the past, what, 2-1/2 years since he has been
in office, 375 billion. Three hundred seventy-five billion of new reg-
ulations that has been just dumped on the backbone of small Amer-
ica. Small business America is struggling. And anybody that has
run a small business know even in an ideal situation it is hard, but
when government is constantly putting barriers and new costs and
expenses in your way it is a miracle, they survive at all.
So today, let’s pass the Enough Act, but let’s not put a big loop-
hole in there to give this administration just another excuse. That
is what they want. They want another excuse, a loophole to con-
tinue to load up that big number that I have already given you. So,
let’s say enough. Let’s say enough and pass this bill without any
additional loopholes so our small businesses can get back to what
they do best—invest, grow, and be Main Street America.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Does anyone else wish to be recognized for a statement on Mr.
Phillips’s amendment?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. I recognize Ranking Member.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I support the amendment being offered by Mr.
Phillips. It is vitally important that we look at both the costs and
the benefits of rulemaking, as well as provide an exemption in the
event of natural disaster. Most importantly, many of the regula-
tions issued by SBA are necessary to safeguard taxpayers’ dollars
against waste, fraud, and abuse, and to preserve public confidence.
My colleagues, we cannot have it both ways. We cannot. Here we
are. We passed a bill today, the RECLAIM Taxpayer Funds Act.
Guess what? It will require for SBA to issue guidance and regula-
tions. So, the SBA could say that they will not implement this bill
that we passed today because it does not fit into their regulatory
budget. So be aware and be careful what you are calling for here
today. SBA prioritizes small businesses and seeks to limit the regu-
latory burden for small employers. We must not limit their ability
to make improvements to its program and that is why I support
the amendment offered by Mr. Phillips.
Mr. Chairman, yeah. That is it.
Chairman WILLIAMS. You yield back?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Yes, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Does anyone wish to be recognized for a
statement?
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Just real brief comments.
We are dealing with rulemaking by the SBA, not legislating from
Congress to House, both the House and the Senate and the presi-
dent. This is rulemaking from the SBA.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Anyone else recognized for a statement?
25

All right. Seeing none I want to say, again, I appreciate
everybody’s remarks.
I now recognize myself to speak against this amendment.
At any given time, there are several presidentially declared na-
tional emergencies in effect. For instance, Executive Order No.
12978 was signed by President Clinton in October of 1995, and it
invoked the National Emergencies Act cited in the Phillips Amend-
ment to create a list of specifically designated narcotics traffickers
that banks and credit units could not do business with. This is a
national emergency that will probably live in perpetuity which
would have the effect of rendering this entire bill moot. As such,
we should reject the amendment. I urge all my colleagues to oppose
this amendment.
Now, the question is now on the Amendment 2 to H.R. 3995 of-
fered by Mr. Phillips.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman, I would like to request a re-
corded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. A recorded vote has been requested
and a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on the amendment are post-
poned.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Ms. DAVIDS. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Ms. Davids is recognized.
Ms. DAVIDS. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. The amendment has been pre-dis-
tributed to all Members.
The clerk will designate the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 3995 offered by Ms. Davids in Section 2, an in-
sert——
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is considered as read.
Ms. Davids is recognized to explain her amendment.
Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As Members of Congress, we have an obligation to ensure that
small businesses across the country are supported and not hurt by
regulatory guardrails. While some rules may be onerous for small
firms and small companies, many provide immense benefits to
these main street companies. And I do fear that the underlying
piece of legislation that we are discussing may inadvertently fail to
adequately consider how the Small Business Administration can
support these companies, particularly our veteran-owned busi-
nesses and those promoting general workforce development.
As of 2018, veterans owned nearly 2 million businesses in this
country, employing over 5 million folks nationally. Those busi-
nesses recorded $1.3 trillion of sales that year boosting local econo-
mies across the entire country from coast to coast and certainly in
the Midwest. Small businesses invest locally, create innovative
jobs, teach folks new skills, and revitalize communities. And we
need to make sure that regulations worked to unleash the true
power of small businesses instead of handcuffing them with cum-
bersome rules passed by Congress.
26

My main concern with this legislation is that it would only con-
sider the costs of regulations and not the benefits for small busi-
nesses. My amendment is simple, but the cost and benefits should
be considered. It would exclude SBA rules that promote workforce
development or that benefit veteran-owned businesses from the ef-
fects of the underlying legislation. This will help former
servicemembers start, operate, and grow their businesses. And it
will ensure that we properly tackle workforce development chal-
lenges that our small businesses and employers are facing nation-
ally.
I hope that everyone here will vote in favor of my amendment
to help improve this piece of legislation.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Does anyone else wish to be recognized for a statement on Ms.
Davids’s amendment?
Okay. Seeing none——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. I would like to recognize the Ranking
Member to speak on this amendment.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
I applaud Ms. Davids for offering an amendment to carve out
veterans, service-disabled veterans and rules that promote work-
force development from a regulatory budget. Over the course of the
past 2 years, we have heard from numerous business owners about
the benefits of workforce programs. They help businesses find
skilled workers and prepare Americans for a better future without
requiring individuals to make substantial financial investment in
their future. We have also heard from countless veterans about the
importance of SBA programs to their small businesses. We contin-
ually ask SBA to do more with less and programmatic regulatory
enhancements are a part of addressing the very needs of veterans
or providing workforce development resources all across the coun-
try. A regulatory budget will have the practical effect of grinding
SBA rulemaking to a halt. I support this exemption for our nation’s
veterans and for rules that promote workforce development and
thank Ms. Davids. Put simply, we owe a lot to our nation’s vet-
erans and cannot take any chances with the unintended con-
sequences a regulatory budget will have at SBA. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Ranking Member yields back.
And I now recognize myself to speak against this amendment.
I oppose this amendment because there seems to be a misunder-
standing on how to help Main Street America. If we want to help
our job creators, we need to create a business-friendly environment,
so they grow and expand their operations. The gentlewoman’s
amendment seems to say to pass a new regulation that imposes a
cost, you must first find a different regulation to repeal so we are
not compounding these expenses on small business. So, I urge my
colleagues to oppose this amendment.
Now the question is the Amendment 3 to H.R. 3995 offered by
Ms. Davids.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it.
27

Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman, I would like to request a re-
corded vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. A recorded vote is requested, and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on the amendments are post-
poned.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Ms. CHU. Mr. Chair, I have an amendment at the desk.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. There is an amendment at the
desk from Ms. Chu. This amendment has been pre-distributed to
all Members.
The clerk will designate the amendment.
The CLERK. Amendment to the amendment in the nature of a
substitute to H.R. 3995 offered by Ms. Chu.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The amendment is considered as read.
Ms. Chu is recognized to explain her amendment.
Ms. CHU. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I urge my colleagues to support my amendment to H.R. 3995,
The Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act. The underlying bill
would prohibit the Small Business Administration from imple-
menting any new regulations that might incur a cost on small busi-
nesses even if those regulations might have important benefits for
small businesses; benefits which many times more than offset those
costs. We all know that our most underserved small businesses,
like those located in rural areas and those owned by women and
minorities all too often struggle accessing the resources critical to
starting and growing a business like capital and contracting oppor-
tunities. It is a core purpose of this Committee to close this gap in
opportunity and resources for those underserved small businesses.
And I have been proud to work towards this goal with many col-
leagues on both sides of the aisle.
But we also rely on the SBA to be a partner in closing this gap
and rulemaking can be a critical tool that they use to do this. But
unfortunately, if left unchanged, this bill would effectively prevent
the SBA from engaging in new rulemaking even if the proposed
rule would have significant benefits for the disadvantaged small
businesses most in need of assistance. My amendment would fix
this by providing an exception to ensure that SBA is able to create
new rules that will specifically help rural small businesses, women-
owned firms, and those owned by socially and economically dis-
advantaged individuals which includes Black, Hispanic, Native,
and Asian Pacific Americans and other minorities and any other
disadvantaged individuals.
I urge strong support for my amendment, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Does anyone else wish to be recognized for a statement on Ms.
Chu’s amendment?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr. Chairman?
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
You know, thoughtful regulations can be very beneficial but too
often than not what we have seen is excessive regulations. They
28

stifle businesses, they burden them with additional costs, and in
some cases, they force them to lay off people or even shut their
businesses.
Now, does anybody remember the hearing where we had the wit-
ness who was a small business owner and he held up a 4-inch, 3-
ring binder. And he said if you pass this regulation this is going
to cost me over $100,000 a year. I am going to be forced to shut
down. I, unlike larger businesses, do not have full-time staff that
handles regulations. This will make me go to a halt. We will have
to lay people off and possibly shut our doors.
I had not seen businesses come before this Committee and say,
you know what? We need more regulations. This is awesome. What
we have seen is small businesses over and over again beg for our
help to shrink regulations because they are killing them. Again,
H.R. 3995 does not prevent the SBA from enacting additional regu-
lations. It does not prevent it from updating regulations or intro-
ducing beneficial regulations. But what it does do is it forces it to
be disciplined. It forces it to review old, outdated regulations or re-
strictions or duplicative regulations that do nothing but add costs,
layer more burdens on small businesses, and increase the size of
bureaucracy.
We have heard from the Ranking Member that everyone here
wants to lessen the burden on small businesses. When are we
going to start?
The Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act is a great first
step and I urge support for this legislation, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Does anyone else wish to be recognized for a statement on Ms.
Chu’s amendment?
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much.
I do believe in my colleague’s good intentions on this amendment
but I am going to oppose it. One of the things that we talked about
was $375 billion in the last 2-1/2 years. And the Chairman is right;
I have not had one small business in my district that said, please,
Washington, put more regulations on me. Put more regulations on
the business that I run. I have not heard one.
And to my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, if you think
we cannot reduce regulations I cannot find any company, small
business in the district that I represent that can help the small
business wipe out a regulation that has been harmful to them. I
believe that there will be no problem if we brought in our small
businesses across this great nation and said we can get rid of this
one, this one, and this one. Listen, it is $375 billion coming out of
COVID. And we talk about small businesses being the engine of
our economy? If they are truly the engine of our economy, they are
begging. We have had witnesses sit at the table. No more regula-
tions. We have to listen to them. And I appreciate Representative
Van Duyne for bringing this up and Mr. Chair, I appreciate your
comments as well on that fourth administrative state. Unelected,
unaccounted bureaucrats putting regulations on small businesses
that have no idea the ramifications. They think it might be a good
idea in the back rooms here in Washington, D.C., but when you get
29

out to the small businessmen and women in this country they are
saying enough is enough. Stop the regulations.
This is a very common-sense piece of legislation, and I yield
back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Member yields back.
Does anyone wish to be recognized for a statement on Ms. Chu’s
amendment?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. I recognize the Ranking Member.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have been asked when are we going to start reducing regula-
tions. We will start when we have a thoughtful approach that looks
at both sides of the ledger—benefits and costs. It is just that sim-
ple. And, you know, this is clearly a messaging bill, but the bottom
line is it is unworkable as drafted.
Let’s take, for example, the transitioning of VA to SBA, the vet-
eran certification from VA to SBA. There are rules and regulations
to make it effective. We should not be hindering SBA’s efforts to
provide more oversight to the contracting programs or make them
stronger. I support the amendment being offered by my colleague,
Ms. Chu, and I urge my colleagues to do the same. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Ranking Member yields back.
I now recognize myself to speak against this amendment.
I oppose this amendment on the same grounds as the previous
amendment relating to veteran-owned small businesses. You can-
not regulate economic growth. You can only hamper it. The Biden
administration’s disastrous regulatory agenda has left plenty of
regulations on the table to be repealed if there is one new costly
regulation that you truly believe is necessary. I oppose this amend-
ment, and once again, I urge all my colleagues to do something
that will actually help our nation’s job creators and reduce the
number of regulations that they must comply with.
So, the question is now on the Amendment 4 to H.R. 3995 offered
by Ms. Chu.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it and the amendment
is not agreed to.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman, I would like to request a roll
call vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on the bill are postponed.
Does anyone else wish to offer an amendment?
Okay. Seeing none the question is now on the amendment in the
nature of a substitute to H.R. 3995 offered by Ms. Van Duyne.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it.
The amendment and the nature of the substitute to H.R. 3995
offered by Ms. Van Duyne is agreed to.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I would like to request a roll call vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
30

House Rule 11, further proceedings on the amendment are post-
poned.
The question is now on favorably reporting H.R. 3995 as amend-
ed to the House.
All those in favor say aye.
All those opposed say no.
In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it.
H.R. 3995 as amended——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman, I would like to request a roll
call vote.
Chairman WILLIAMS. A recorded vote has been requested and
a roll call vote is ordered. Pursuant to Committee Rule 13 and
House Rule 11, further proceedings on the bill are postponed.
The Committee now stands in recess subject to the call of the
Chair. We will resume later today at 11:45.
[Recess]
Chairman WILLIAMS. The Committee will now resume consider-
ation of the bills on which roll call votes were requested and post-
poned.
We will start with H.R. 4666, a bill to require the SBA OIG to
submit quarterly reports on PPP and EIDL fraud.
The question now is adopting H.R. 4666 and ordering it favorably
to the House.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
[No response.]
Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
31

The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Aye.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Are there any other Members
who have not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 26 ayes, 0 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. H.R. 4666 is adopted and will be reported
favorably to the House.
The question is now on adopting H.R. 4667, the RECLAIM Tax-
payer Funds Act and ordering it favorably reported to the House.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
32

Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Aye.
Mr. PHILLIPS. And aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye and Mr. Landsman votes aye.
Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Mr. Chair-
man Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Aye.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Are there any other Members
who have not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 26 ayes, 0 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. H.R. 4667 is adopted and will be reported
favorably to the House.
The question now is adopting H.R. 4480, the SERV Act and or-
dering it favorably reported to the House.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
33

Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Aye.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Are there any other Members who
have not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 26 ayes, 0 nays, and
0 present.
34

Chairman WILLIAMS. H.R. 4480 is adopted and will be reported
favorably to the House.
The question now is adopting H.R. 4670, The Small Business
Contracting Transparency Act of 2023 and ordering it favorably re-
ported to the House.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
35

The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Aye.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Okay. Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 26 ayes, 0 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. H.R. 4670 is adopted and will be reported
favorably to the House.
The question now is on adopting H.R. 4668, the POST IT Act and
ordering it favorably reported to the House.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
36

Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Aye.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Are there any other Members
who have not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 26 ayes, 0 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. H.R. 4668 is adopted and will be reported
favorably to the House.
The question now is on adopting H.R. 4669, the DOE and SBA
Research Act and ordering it favorably reported to the House.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
37

Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Landsman. Or, sorry.
Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Aye.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 26 ayes, 0 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. H.R. 4669 is adopted and will be reported
favorably to the House.
The question now is on adopting H.R. 4671, The Corrective Ac-
tion Report Oversight and Accountability Act and ordering it favor-
ably reported to the House.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
38

Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Aye.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 26 ayes, 0 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. H.R. 4671 is adopted and will be reported
favorably to the House.
The question now is on Velázquez Amendment 1, Version 2 to
H.R. 3995.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes nay. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes nay. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes nay. Ms. Van Duyne?
39

Ms. VAN DUYNE. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes nay. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes nay. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes nay. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes nay. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes no. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Nay.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes nay. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes nay. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes nay. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes nay. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Nay.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes nay. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Nay.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes nay.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 12 ayes, 14 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Velázquez Amendment 1, Version
2 to H.R. 3995 is not agreed to.
40

The question now is on Phillips Amendment 1, Version 1 to H.R.
3995.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes no. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes no. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes no. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes no. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes no. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes no. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes no. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes no. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes no. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes no. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes no. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes no. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Nay.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes no. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
41

The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. No.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes no.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 12 ayes, 14 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Phillips Amendment 1, Version 2
to H.R. 3995 is not agreed to.
The question now is on Davids Amendment 1, Version 1 to H.R.
3995.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes no. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes no. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes no. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes no. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes no. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes no. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes no. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Nay.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes no. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes no. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes no. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes no. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Nay.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes no. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
42

The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. No.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes no.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 12 ayes, 14 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Davids Amendment 1, Version 1 is
not agreed to.
The question now is on the Chu Amendment 1, Version 1 to H.R.
3995.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 12 ayes, 14 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Phillips Amendment 1, Version 2
to H.R. 3995 is not agreed to.
The question now is on Davids Amendment 1, Version 1 to H.R.
3995.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes no. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes no. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes no. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes no. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes no. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes no. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes no. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes no. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes no. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes no. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes no. Mr. Hunt?
43

Mr. HUNT. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes no. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. No.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes no. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes aye. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes aye. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes aye. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes aye. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes aye. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes aye. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes aye. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes aye. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes aye. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes aye. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes aye. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Aye.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes aye. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. No.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes no.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 12 ayes, 14 nays, and
0 present.
Okay. Davids Amendment 1, Version 1 to H.R. 3995 is not
agreed to.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The question now is on the amendment
in the nature of a substitute to H.R. 3995.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
44

Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes no. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes no. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes no. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. Nay.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes no. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. No.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes no. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes no. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes no. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes no. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes no. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Nay.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes no. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes no. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. No.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes no. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes aye.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 14 ayes, 12 nays, and
0 present.
The amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R. 3995 is
agreed to.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The question now is on adopting H.R.
3995, the Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act as amended
and ordering it favorably to the House.
The clerk will call the roll.
The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer?
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Aye.
45

The CLERK. Mr. Luetkemeyer votes aye. Mr. Stauber?
Mr. STAUBER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Stauber votes aye. Mr. Meuser?
Mr. MEUSER. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Meuser votes aye. Ms. Van Duyne?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Van Duyne votes aye. Ms. Salazar?
Ms. SALAZAR. Aye.
The CLERK. Ms. Salazar votes aye. Mr. Mann?
Mr. MANN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Mann votes aye. Mr. Ellzey?
Mr. ELLZEY. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Ellzey votes aye. Mr. Molinaro?
Mr. MOLINARO. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Molinaro votes aye. Mr. Alford?
Mr. ALFORD. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Alford votes aye. Mr. Crane?
Mr. CRANE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Crane votes aye. Mr. Bean?
Mr. BEAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Bean votes aye. Mr. Hunt?
Mr. HUNT. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Hunt votes aye. Mr. LaLota?
Mr. LALOTA. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. LaLota votes aye. Mr. Golden?
Mr. GOLDEN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Golden votes no. Mr. Mfume?
Mr. MFUME. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Mfume votes no. Mr. Phillips?
Mr. PHILLIPS. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Phillips votes no. Mr. Landsman?
Mr. LANDSMAN. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Landsman votes no. Mr. McGarvey?
Mr. MCGARVEY. No.
The CLERK. Mr. McGarvey votes no. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez?
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Gluesenkamp Perez votes no. Ms. Scholten?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Scholten votes no. Mr. Thanedar?
Mr. THANEDAR. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Thanedar votes no. Ms. Chu?
Ms. CHU. No.
The CLERK. Ms. Chu votes no. Ms. Davids?
Ms. DAVIDS. Nay.
The CLERK. Ms. Davids votes no. Mr. Pappas?
Mr. PAPPAS. No.
The CLERK. Mr. Pappas votes no. Ranking Member Velázquez?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. No.
The CLERK. Ranking Member Velázquez votes no. Chairman
Williams?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes.
The CLERK. Chairman Williams votes yes.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Are there any other Members who have
not voted or wish to change their vote?
46

Seeing none, the clerk will report.
The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, on that vote 14 ayes, 12 nays, and
0 present.
Chairman WILLIAMS. H.R. 3995 as amended is adopted and
will be reported favorably to the House.
Without objection, Committee staff is authorized to make tech-
nical and conforming changes and Members have 2 business days
to file additional supplemental dissenting minority views.
I want to thank all of you for being here today. I think it has
been a good hearing, and we often show that we agree on more
than we do not.
If there is no further business, this concludes today’s markup.
Without objection, the Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:47 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
47

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