Fueling America's Future: How Investment Empowers Small-Business Growth (House Small Business Committee hearing, April 2, 2025)
Summary
Transcript of the House Committee on Small Business hearing Fueling America's Future: How Investment Empowers Small-Business Growth, on April 2, 2025, published as Small Business Committee Document Number 119–007. Chairman Roger Williams and Ranking Member Nydia Velázquez gave opening statements. Witnesses were Brett Palmer of the Small Business Investor Alliance, William Baumel of the Ohio Innovation Fund, and Anthony Cimino of Carta. The appendix adds H.R. 2066, the Investing in All of America Act of 2025. The committee met at 10:03 a.m.
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“Fueling America's Future: How Investment Empowers Small-Business Growth (House Small Business Committee hearing, April 2, 2025).”
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FUELING AMERICA’S FUTURE: HOW INVESTMENT
EMPOWERS SMALL-BUSINESS GROWTH
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD
APRIL 2, 2025
Small Business Committee Document Number 119–007
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59–818 WASHINGTON : 2025
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
NICK LALOTA, New York
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
TONY WIED, Wisconsin
ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
BRIAN JACK, Georgia
TROY DOWNING, Montana
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
GIL CISNEROS, California
KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
GEORGE LATIMER, New York
DEREK TRAN, California
LATEEFAH SIMON, California
JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire
LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director
(II)
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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................ 1
Hon. Nydia Velázquez ............................................................................................. 2
WITNESSES
Mr. Brett Palmer, President, Small Business Investor Alliance, Washington,
DC .......................................................................................................................... 5
Mr. William Baumel, Managing Director, Ohio Innovation Fund, Dublin, OH . 7
Mr. Anthony Cimino, Vice President & Head of Public Policy, Carta, San
Francisco, CA ........................................................................................................ 9
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. Brett Palmer, President, Small Business Investor Alliance, Wash-
ington, DC ..................................................................................................... 40
Mr. William Baumel, Managing Director, Ohio Innovation Fund, Dublin,
OH .................................................................................................................. 51
Mr. Anthony Cimino, Vice President & Head of Public Policy, Carta,
San Francisco, CA ......................................................................................... 56
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
H.R. 2066 - Investing in All of America Act of 2025 ..................................... 64
(III)
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FUELING AMERICA’S FUTURE: HOW
INVESTMENT EMPOWERS SMALL-BUSINESS
GROWTH
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2025
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
man of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, LaLota,
Finstad, Wied, Jack, Downing, King-Hinds, Schmidt, Velázquez,
McGarvey, Cisneros, Latimer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, and
Goodlander.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Let me welcome everybody.
And before we get started, I want to welcome Congressman
Stauber from the great State of Minnesota to lead us in the pledge
and a prayer.
Mr. STAUBER. Dear Lord, thanks for this wonderful day.
Thanks for bringing us together. Thanks for the leadership of our
Ranking Member and our Chairman today as we do the people’s
business.
Lord, we thank you for the safe travels of our witnesses to come
here and testify, give us their experience.
And we pray for all of our staff, who work so hard behind the
scenes to help us all become successful. We are one United States
of America, and we shall never forget that.
In your name, we pray. Amen.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Amen.
Mr. STAUBER. Would you please join me in the Pledge of Alle-
giance?
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, in-
divisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Good morning to everyone. And I
now call the Committee on Small Business to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of
the Committee at any time.
I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
Welcome to today’s hearing, ‘‘Fueling America’s Future: How In-
vestment Empowers Small-Business Growth.’’
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I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. Many of you
have traveled a long way to share your experience and perspec-
tives, and we deeply value your time and your voice.
When small businesses succeed, America succeeds. Small busi-
nesses excel when they have access to the capital needed for
growth on terms that support them.
Today’s hearing will focus on the essential role of private capital
and public-private partnerships in small-business investment.
Given the tightening of bank lending standards and the persist-
ence of high interest rates from Biden’s disastrous economic poli-
cies, creating investment opportunities for small businesses is more
valuable today than ever before.
Thankfully, under the leadership of President Donald Trump,
Main Street America is more hopeful than ever. President Trump
is bringing back American manufacturing, cutting regulatory red
tape, revitalizing small business, and supporting American invest-
ment.
By prioritizing economic growth over political agendas, we are
unleashing capital back into the hands of job creators and
innovators and fueling a new era of prosperity that strengthens
main street and empowers small-business owners.
Renewed optimism in America’s next golden age is inspiring
greater investment in small businesses, which drives entrepreneur-
ship and American innovation. These private investments will help
fuel small-business growth, creating opportunities for strategic
guidance, mentorship, and industry connections.
In addition to private investment, small businesses can also seek
out public-private partnerships. The SBA’s Small Business Invest-
ment Companies program, known as the SBIC program, dem-
onstrates how the government partnering with private investors
and allowing the private sector to make investment decisions stim-
ulates innovation, strengthens domestic supply chains, and en-
hances national security.
SBICs are privately owned companies that are licensed and regu-
lated by the SBA. SBICs raise private capital to invest in small
businesses through debt and equity. The SBA doesn’t invest di-
rectly in SBICs, but supplements private capital with government-
backed funds to strengthen support for small businesses.
My friend and colleague, Congressman Dan Meuser from the
great State of Pennsylvania, introduced a bipartisan bill, the In-
vesting in All of America Act of 2025, to expand access to capital
through SBICs for small businesses in manufacturing, critical tech-
nology industries, and rural areas. I look forward to working across
the aisle and with the Senate to move this bill forward.
When investors support business growth and businesses generate
returns for investors and the business itself, it creates a cycle of
success that strengthens America’s economy and propels main
street toward economic success.
With that, I will yield to our distinguished Ranking Member
from New York, my friend, Ms. Velázquez, for her opening re-
marks.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a very im-
portant and timely hearing. I want to thank all the witnesses for
being here this morning.
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Today is ‘‘Liberation Day,’’ the day President Trump said he
plans to roll out a set of tariffs that he promises will free the
United States from foreign goods. In anticipation of today, our pub-
lic markets slipped again yesterday in another volatile day of trad-
ing.
The uncertainty surrounding the President’s tariff policies has
put our public markets on a roller-coaster ride. On Monday, the
S&P 500 touched a 6-month low. For the first quarter, the index
lost 4.6 percent, while the NASDAQ Composite dropped 10 percent.
That marked the worst quarterly performance for both benchmarks
since 2022. The Dow has dropped 1.3 percent during the first 3
months of the year.
With confidence in our public markets never shakier, it is vital
that our private markets step up and facilitate financing to our na-
tion’s small businesses.
Traditionally, small businesses have been more reliant on bank
financing for their credit needs than large businesses. But, as we
will explore today, in recent years, small employers have increas-
ingly relied on private forms of investment and credit to meet their
financing needs.
The SBA SBIC program is a responsible and effective method for
small businesses and startups to partner with private equity inves-
tors. Currently, the SBA partners with more than 300 privately-
owned and -managed SBICs to provide financing to small busi-
nesses with private capital the SBIC has raised through an SBA-
guaranteed debenture. As of 2024, the SBIC program has made
more than 194,000 investments and deployed more than $130 bil-
lion of capital to small businesses.
Under the Biden-Harris administration, the SBA created two
new types of SBIC, the Accrual and Reinvestor SBIC, and made
important updates to the program. I look forward to discussing how
these changes have streamlined and modernized the program.
More broadly, private funds, like private equity, private credit,
and venture funds, have become a critical source of financing for
small firms, particularly those that need retooling or are just on
the cusp of growth. For example, the private equity industry in-
vested in 18,000 businesses in 2022, 40 percent of which had fewer
than 50 employees. Likewise, private credit firms facilitated loans
to 3,600 companies in 2022 and tend to serve small- to middle-mar-
ket businesses with 150 employees or fewer.
So, while there is no doubt that the role private funds play in
the American economy is significant, these funds can also present
serious risks for small businesses, their employees, and their com-
munities. It is important to note, these funds have drawn signifi-
cant criticism over the years for the strategies they at times choose
to employ.
Like conventional bank loans, the research unfortunately dem-
onstrates that women- and minority-owned and small businesses
outside a certain geographic area have less access to private funds
that their counterparts. For example, Black and Hispanic female
entrepreneurs received less than 1 percent of all venture capital in-
vestment in 2020.
I look forward to exploring all these issues and more to ensure
our private markets are appropriately regulated, transparent, and
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working for the long-term benefit of our small businesses and their
employees, especially at a time when federal agencies are losing
critical staff and funding.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And I will now introduce our witnesses.
Our first witness here with us today is Mr. Brett Palmer. Mr.
Palmer has served as president of the Small Business Investor Alli-
ance in Washington, D.C., since 2008.
Prior to that, Mr. Palmer worked as the managing director of
government relations at the National Association of Insurance
Commissioners. Before joining the SBIA, Mr. Palmer also served as
an Assistant Secretary for Legislative Affairs and Deputy Assistant
Secretary for Trade Legislation at the Department of Commerce.
He has served in several roles in the House, including as a policy
aide to former Speaker Newt Gingrich.
Mr. Palmer holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Davidson Col-
lege.
And I want to thank you for being here today and taking time
to let us hear your conversation with us.
Our next witness here with us today is Bill Baumel. Bill has
served as the managing director of the Ohio Innovation Fund in
Columbus, Ohio, since 2016. He spent more than 20 years as a ven-
ture capitalist in Silicon Valley before bringing his experience back
to Ohio.
Outside of the Ohio Innovation Fund, Mr. Baumel serves as di-
rector at multiple companies, including Aware, Stirling Ultracold,
and others. In addition, Mr. Baumel is an investor and an advisor
at Immuta, Enable Injections, Trace 3D, and ScriptDrop to name
a few. He is also a member of the National Venture Capital Asso-
ciation.
Mr. Baumel holds a Master of Business Administration from the
University of Michigan and a Bachelor of Science in accounting and
economics from The Ohio State University.
So who do you root for on Saturday? That——
Mr. BAUMEL. Ohio State.
Chairman WILLIAMS.—is the question.
So thanks for joining us today, and we look forward it our con-
versation, okay?
And I now recognize the Ranking Member from New York, Ms.
Velázquez, to briefly introduce our last witness.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr, Chairman.
I would like to introduce and welcome Mr. Anthony Cimino to
the Committee.
Mr. Cimino is Vice President and Head of Policy at Carta, a pri-
vate markets infrastructure company that provides equity manage-
ment and valuation services for more than 45,000 companies and
fund administration services for 6,500 funds and fund vehicles.
Prior to Carta, Mr. Cimino worked on policy for trade associa-
tions focused on driving capital to more people, more entre-
preneurs, and more businesses. In addition, Mr. Cimino served as
senior staff for the Committee on Financial Services during the fi-
nancial crisis and the Committee’s work on the Dodd-Frank Act.
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Mr. Cimino has an MBA from Johns Hopkins and an under-
graduate degree from UCLA.
Mr. Cimino, thank you for joining us here this morning.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And thank you to all of you again. We appreciate all of you being
here today.
So, before I recognize the witnesses, I would like to remind them
that their oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length.
Now, if you see the light turn on in front of you, it means your
5 minutes is up, it has concluded, and you need to wrap it up
quick. And if you don’t, you are going to hear this: [Bangs gavel.]
Okay? And that means it’s over, all right?
And, also, one other thing I want to say: We have a lot of other
hearings going on today, so you may see a lot of the Committee,
including the Ranking Member and myself, get up and leave, come
back. It has nothing to do with it your testimony; it is just that we
have a lot going on today.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. We have a markup——
Chairman WILLIAMS. We have a markup——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ.—in Financial Services.
Chairman WILLIAMS. We do.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Yeah.
Chairman WILLIAMS. And that is a long thing to do, right?
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Yeah.
Chairman WILLIAMS. If you will keep it short, we will get
through quicker.
Okay. I now recognize Mr. Brett Palmer for his 5-minute opening
remarks.
STATEMENTS OF BRETT PALMER, PRESIDENT, SMALL BUSI-
NESS INVESTOR ALLIANCE; BILL BAUMEL, MANAGING DI-
RECTOR, OHIO INNOVATION FUND, ON BEHALF OF THE NA-
TIONAL VENTURE CAPITAL ASSOCIATION; AND ANTHONY
CIMINO, VICE PRESIDENT AND HEAD OF PUBLIC POLICY,
CARTA
STATEMENT OF BRETT PALMER
Mr. PALMER. Good morning, Chairman Williams and Ranking
Member Velázquez and Members of the Committee. Thank you for
holding this hearing.
My name is Brett Palmer. I am president of the Small Business
Investor Alliance, and our mission is to maintain a robust, healthy,
and competitive market for small-business investing right here in
the United States.
SBIA was formed in 1958 to represent small-business investment
companies, America’s original venture capital and private equity
funds. Prior to SBICs, the only source of equity capital for new or
growing businesses were corporations and the three F’s of capital
access—family, fools, and friends. President Eisenhower knew he
could do better than the three F’s, and for our small businesses, he
created the SBICs to kick-start a new private capital market that
is now the envy of the world.
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It is hard to believe it, but it is true; the federal government cre-
ated what we now call the venture capital industry with the estab-
lishment of the SBICs. And for nearly 70 years, SBICs have been
a critical part of getting institutional capital to small businesses
that are often overlooked by the biggest financial firms or in the
most concentrated population areas.
SBIC is an American success story, an example of successful pub-
lic policy that aligns the power of private markets with the public
interest of job creation and economic growth.
While some small businesses don’t want to grow, that is fine. But
some small businesses do. And that is what we want to do, is we
want to help them grow. Because when they do grow, they need
outside capital and they need outside experts to help them scale
up. Because sometimes it is called a valley of death, going from
small to medium.
The only way to be a successful SBIC is to find those smaller
businesses and help them grow into bigger, better, more resilient
businesses. Because SBICs are only able to make a profit by suc-
cessfully growing the small businesses, they cannot cut their way
to profitability; they have to grow it.
There are icons of American industry, including Federal Express,
Apple, Intel, Callaway Golf, and many others, that have received
SBIC capital when they were small and when they were young.
These companies are recognized globally. But most small busi-
nesses backed by SBICs simply grow into robust middle-size busi-
nesses. They never go public, but they succeed.
The Library of Congress did a study a couple years ago, and
when they looked at it, they found that SBIC investments that
were debt-oriented grew small-business employment by about 150
jobs per small business, and for equity investments into those
small businesses, it was about 350 new jobs. Those are really big
numbers for small businesses. And the study found that, when they
looked back, the SBICs created about 3 million new jobs across
those small businesses. That is really powerful.
And while some of these small businesses are high-tech world-
changers that I mentioned, most are doing the services or are man-
ufacturing the products that are invisible on the national stage, but
they make our economy robust and they make their communities
stronger.
For example, Builders Buying Group in Representative
Scholten’s district. They help independent home builders lower
costs by helping them buy products at scale to compete with na-
tional builders and get better pricing. Since the SBIC investment,
revenue and earnings have increased by more than 125 percent.
Another is Advanced Industries in Representative Alford’s dis-
trict. It is a small manufacturer of complex containers, some of
which are used by DOD. Since their investment at the depth of the
pandemic, they have been growing employment by over 16 percent.
From Peachtree City; to Oakland; to Mission, Kansas; to
Hardinsburg, Kentucky; to Winona and Hayfield, Minnesota; to
Odessa, Missouri; to Cornwall, Pennsylvania; and Appleton, Wis-
consin, there are small businesses and particularly small manufac-
turers that are able to grow.
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To put it in the simplest terms, SBIC funds are private invest-
ment vehicles that pool capital from institutional investors like
pension funds and endowments, and then they use SBA leverage
to invest in those small businesses. So the private capital leads and
the SBA leverage follows and amplifies. It is 100 percent small
business, 100 percent domestic, with a lot of investments in manu-
facturing and in low-income areas, all of which is done at zero sub-
sidy to the taxpayer.
Because access to capital is key to growth for small businesses
and will always be a challenge to small businesses, scale is real.
It is a challenge for everyone.
And, traditionally, as the Ranking Member pointed out, banks
help finance small businesses that have a stable revenue history
and assets to borrow against. Unfortunately, a lot of newer busi-
nesses and smaller businesses, particularly in low-income areas
and rural areas—and rural areas are generally low-income areas—
tend to have more difficulty accessing traditional sources of capital
and credit because they don’t have the balance sheet of big busi-
nesses and they are seen as too risky.
This is where SBICs fill the gap by changing the balance sheets
and being the first institutional capital deployed into many small
businesses. Once the SBIC capital is invested into a small busi-
ness, then a small business is able to access conventional bank cap-
ital. With SBICs, small businesses can access the capital markets
in a similar way to big businesses.
And the SBA is doing interesting things with DOD. There is a
strategic partnership to license critical technology SBICs. These
funds are designed to support critical national-security industries
and supply chains to compete with other countries around the
world who are being very aggressive as far as, you know, what they
are doing with their economies versus ours.
And demand for SBIC capital is such that SBICs are looking at
400 to 500 individual small businesses before they invest in a sin-
gle one. The demand for the capital is real and it is there. And
there are about 100 new SBICs forming, representing about 20 bil-
lion new dollars in small-business investment that is going to help
fill this ongoing gap. This market has grown dramatically for pri-
vate credit, private equity, venture, and venture lending.
And I thank the Committee for having this hearing, and I would
be happy to answer any questions that you may have.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Mr. Baumel for his 5-
minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF BILL BAUMEL
Mr. BAUMEL. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velázquez,
and distinguished Members of the U.S. Committee on Small Busi-
ness, thank you for the opportunity to discuss an issue vital to our
country’s prosperity: empowering America’s entrepreneurship.
I graduated from Ohio State and Michigan. My first venture cap-
ital startup investment was based in Bemidji, Minnesota—the first
company to provide fiber home systems that bundled voice, video,
and data services in underserved rural areas.
I continue to invest and partner with founders across a variety
of sectors, from groundbreaking health technology like the first
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continuous glucose monitor for diabetics, to cutting-edge data secu-
rity solutions used by global giants like Starbucks, Walmart, Chev-
ron, Citigroup, General Motors, and the U.S. Air Force.
Over the years, many of the startups I have worked with have
gone public or been acquired by companies like Nvidia, Intuit,
Medtronic, Dell, and Oracle. I have worked 15 years in Silicon Val-
ley and Boston and 15 years in the Midwest, partnering with hun-
dreds of entrepreneurs to navigate the challenging journey of scal-
ing a startup.
Currently, I run the Ohio Innovation Fund, a venture capital
firm founded in 2016 specializing in sectors like software, artificial
intelligence, cybersecurity, and biotech. Our portfolio companies
form partnerships with industry leaders like Sanofi, Roche
Genentech, Eli Lilly, Samsung, Dell, ServiceNow, and Snowflake,
with many of the Fortune 500 and leading medical institutions as
clients or clinical trial partners.
At Ohio Innovation Fund, we provide the real-world experience
and market insights that startups need to succeed, offering guid-
ance on business strategy, product development, financing, and
team-building. Many of the entrepreneurs we work with in the
Midwest are first-time founders relying on our expertise to realize
their startup’s full potential.
For example, we partnered with Stirling Ultracold, a company
based in Appalachian Ohio manufacturing ultra-low-temperature
freezers for leading biopharma companies. Our support helped
them scale to 100 million annual shipments, and many of the origi-
nal investors and employees became millionaires. And now they are
local angel investors, which has contributed to a cycle of wealth
creation and reinvestment in Appalachia.
eFuse, a leading e-sports software platform, was founded by a
college intern we mentored. In only 5 years, eFuse has grown to
tens of millions in revenue, partnered with companies like Epic
Games and Activision, with influencers and investors such as Odell
Beckham, Jr., and Tim Tebow’s WaterStone Impact Fund. Founder
Matt Benson says, ‘‘Bill mentored me, offering both strategic guid-
ance and invaluable access to his networking expertise. I am living
proof of the impact OIF makes by empowering the next generation
of innovators.’’
OIF worked with Aware, a cybersecurity company, leading to an
acquisition by Mimecast, which has established an AI hub in Co-
lumbus to provide enhanced and new, innovative solutions to their
combined 40,000-plus customers, creating jobs and expanding op-
portunities for our local community. Aware founder Jeff Schumann,
head of AI strategy at Mimecast, says, ‘‘OIF’s world-renowned go-
to-market expertise and hands-on, collaborative approach was like
bringing a superhero onto our team, equipping us with unparal-
leled power and capability.’’
Bank funding is not an option for most startups, so early-stage
venture funding partnered with public capital sources, such as
those from the Small Business Administration, is essential.
For Clarametyx’s CEO, without venture support from OIF and
public funding sources like CARB-X and the National Institutes of
Health, their groundbreaking biotherapies would not have reached
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clinical trials. This partnership enabled them to advance collabora-
tion with a major biopharma company.
Beyond supporting startups, we are committed to helping seed
the next generation of entrepreneurs. Each year, we engage with
hundreds of students through internships, boot camps, and men-
toring, helping them gain practical experience and connect with the
startup world. Many go on to join top firms like Goldman Sachs,
J.P. Morgan, and Anduril, but many more stay in the Midwest VC
ecosystem, including at Ohio Innovation Fund and our companies,
contributing to the growth of the next wave of innovators.
Our success stories highlight the transformative potential of en-
trepreneurship outside traditional hubs. It is critical to continue
fostering innovation in areas like Ohio, where capital is limited and
ecosystems are still developing.
State resources also play a key role. For example, Stirling
Ultracold partnered with JobsOhio to receive capital to help scale
up his manufacturing operations, which allowed him to grow to
$100 million in revenue over a couple years.
In conclusion, the success of entrepreneurs depends on a com-
bined effort from venture capital, federal government support, and
State resources. Together, we can provide the resources and guid-
ance needed to create a high-growth business that will drive the
economy forward.
Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I look for-
ward to discussing how we can work together to improve capital ac-
cess to empower entrepreneurs across the United States.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And now we recognize Mr. Anthony Cimino for his 5-minute
opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF ANTHONY CIMINO
Mr. CIMINO. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velázquez,
and Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to
testify today on expanding investment and the role of the SBA.
I am proud to be here on behalf of Carta, a company that serves
as the infrastructure for private capital. Carta provides equity
management and valuation services for 50,000 private companies
and their employees. We provide fund accounting, portfolio man-
agement, and investor reporting for approximately 7,000 funds.
Our end-to-end platform connects private capital, ultimately sup-
porting the development of this ecosystem.
Startups and small businesses and the private capital that backs
them are this nation’s economic and innovation engine. This eco-
system has created 70 percent of net new jobs since 2019. It ac-
counts for half of U.S. economic activity, and it spurs innovation.
Over the past 50 years, the U.S. has started twice as many compa-
nies as the rest of the G7 combined. This is what has provided our
nation its competitive edge and, importantly, led to more opportu-
nities for more Americans.
But to start and grow a business to contribute to this economic
dynamism, startups and small businesses need access to capital. It
is a gating issue. And for many entrepreneurs, traditional financ-
ing is not available. Banks typically do not lend against an idea or
an unproven product in an unproven market.
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That is where private capital steps in. Private capital provides
entrepreneurs and small businesses with long-term, risk-forward
capital to launch and build companies. The company gets a check,
and the investors get a stake in the business.
But these investments are more than a check. These funds be-
come strategic and operational partners helping these companies
succeed. In broad terms, venture capital helps turn a concept into
a company, and private equity can help it grow and mature.
And, yes, the private capital ecosystem is growing, but it is still
too concentrated. Capital is the lifeblood of small businesses, but
these funds are flowing to specific regions and to select commu-
nities.
To illustrate this point, California companies attracted half of all
venture investments last year. Even in New York, which attracted
approximately 11 percent of venture funding, the bulk of that cap-
ital hit places like Manhattan, not necessarily places like Brooklyn.
This disparity in access is even more stark when you examine it
across the broader country.
So our collective charge is to change this. We must not merely
bolster this economic engine, but broaden it—broaden it to more
people, to more investors, to more companies, to more communities.
And to do this, we need to expand the investor ecosystem into
more regions. Regional capital can create regional economic hubs.
This starts the flywheel: Emerging and regional managers tend to
invest early, invest locally, and invest diversely. These investors
back entrepreneurs in the region, and these entrepreneurs launch
and build companies, which attract employees to the region. These
employees earn income, develop skills, further broadening the eco-
system in which to invest and on which to build.
It all starts with the investors that increase access to capital.
And policy can help drive this to more places in the country.
First, we should build on the success of the SBIC program. This
program enables proven investment managers to tap more capital
to invest in startups and small businesses, all while being a strong
steward of taxpayer resources. The SBIC’s recent enhancements to
allow accrual debenture and reinvestor offerings will align more
with venture-focused funds and put more money into the eco-
system. SBICs are making a difference, and we support ensuring
the SBIC has the operational capacity to support this program and
even more stakeholders to engage with it.
Second, we should continue to improve the SBIC program. The
bipartisan Investing in All of America Act does just that. This leg-
islation incentivizes capital deployment to overlooked and under-
served rural areas and into the national-security sector. Driving in-
vestment into these segments is in the national interest, both
unlocking more economic growth and helping us maintain our glob-
al competitive edge.
Third, we can do more to broaden employee ownership. Expand-
ing ownership helps attract, retain, and align talent with the busi-
nesses, ultimately helping them thrive. And for employees, owner-
ship enables them to participate in the profits they are helping
build as well as have access to an uncapped upside. And, impor-
tantly for the community, employee ownership makes it likely that
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these small businesses will continue to operate and create economic
growth even after an entrepreneur retires.
American ingenuity is not limited to certain areas and people.
Unfortunately, capital—and, consequently, some of that oppor-
tunity—remains too concentrated. Policy can help change that, ex-
panding access to capital to more small businesses and more com-
munities.
Carta looks forward to supporting this Committee’s effort. I
thank the Committee and the staff that work tirelessly on these
issues, and look forward to answering any of your questions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And we will now move to Member questions under the 5-minute
rule. I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Palmer, strengthening domestic manufacturing and invest-
ing in critical technologies are the key to enhancing economic com-
petitiveness and national security. However, small businesses, es-
pecially those in rural communities, often struggle to access the
funds needed to scale innovative manufacturing operations.
President Trump and SBA Administrator Loeffler have taken im-
mediate action to return manufacturing to America. Through SBA’s
Putting American Manufacturing First initiative, small businesses
are put in the driver’s seat of the resurgence. Infusing investments
and other support to small-business manufacturers will bring the
golden age of America to us.
Small-business investment companies play a critical role in in-
vesting in areas and industries that have fewer investment oppor-
tunities.
So, Mr. Palmer, can you speak to how SBIC investments support
the revitalization of American manufacturing in rural commu-
nities?
Mr. PALMER. Sure.
Manufacturing is important. It is important nationally, it is im-
portant to SBICs, it is important to our national security, it is im-
portant to our economy.
Our manufacturing base has to constantly be reinvented. We
have new manufacturers who need to be created, but we also need
to take the manufacturing base that we have and take it to the
next level with new technologies, new efficiencies, new markets.
And that is done commonly through SBICs. SBICs invest in old
metal-benders and reinvent them and take them to the next level.
SBIC investments fail very rarely. They overwhelmingly succeed.
And that manufacturing is a key part of that.
The Department of Defense partnership with the SBA is a really
good idea. It is long overdue. I am surprised we didn’t come up
with this 30 years ago. But they are working—the DOD is collabo-
rating very closely with the SBA to make sure that the small busi-
nesses that are doing these industries that are important to our
manufacturing and to our global competitiveness, not just from a
government contracting perspective but just industries we want
here and not in China, for example, that they can access that cap-
ital. And that is what the SBICs are doing, with DOD.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
And I want to follow up on that. Your SBICs have been engaging
with the Department of Defense Office of Strategic Capital to track
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private investment into technologies critical to national security. So
can you tell us a little bit about how SBIC investments help boost
America’s national security?
Mr. PALMER. Sure.
You know, just like in sports, the best defense is a good offense.
You know, just keep putting points on the board. You know, we
have to constantly be putting points on the board, economically, to
our country, being a dynamic economy that is not rigid, that is con-
stantly reinventing itself.
And that is what the SBICs are doing. And they are doing it in
areas that are related to the computer industry, related to the
manufacturing of metals that get used in defense industries, that
get used in avionics for satellites and communications. It is all in-
tegrated. And it is also all used by civilians too. We have to have
both; they are not a separated economy. And that is what the
SBICs are connecting.
Chairman WILLIAMS. One more quick followup. What steps can
Congress take to enhance SBICs’ ability to invest in America’s
small businesses?
Mr. PALMER. Well, I think the Investing in All of America Act
by Congressmen Meuser and Scholten is really critical, because it
creates an incentive, not a financial incentive but an investment in-
centive, to invest in areas that have sometimes been forgotten or
passed over, and particularly for industries like manufacturing.
That has a piece in there.
So I think that would be the best thing this Committee could do.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay.
Mr. Baumel, in the time I have remaining, in just over 2 months,
the Trump administration has already helped push $2 trillion into
private investment in the United States, and these investments are
important to help businesses grow as we enter the golden age of
America.
So, last Congress, we heard from small businesses about the bar-
riers they face when looking to attract investors, particularly in
rural communities, again.
So, Mr. Baumel, you chose to create your investment fund in
Ohio rather than California, and how has that decision helped to
find investment opportunities that may have been overlooked? And
what can be done to better connect the types of businesses you in-
vest in with the investors throughout America?
Mr. BAUMEL. Sure. There is just as much talent in Ohio, Penn-
sylvania, all the different States in the Midwest as there is in Mas-
sachusetts, Boston, or in Silicon Valley. The main thing is empow-
ering, enabling them and bringing the expertise, and that is what
Ohio Innovation Fund brings.
And so we have done that, particularly in rural areas. I men-
tioned Stirling Ultracold before. That is an advanced manufac-
turing company. Advanced manufacturing—manufacturing was
kind of a necessary thing to do in the past, a lot of times
outsourced. Manufacturing is now a strategic advantage.
And, you know, to Ranking Member Velázquez’s comment, that
also, by doing that in rural areas, we actually partner with commu-
nity colleges, we partner with local universities, and train the next
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generation of advanced manufacturing personnel, you know, to go
in those areas.
But the opportunities, whether that be in biotech, cybersecurity,
data science, and all of the different areas, are just as strong in
Ohio as anywhere else. Money and expertise.
Chairman WILLIAMS. My time is up. And I would say, don’t for-
get Texas.
Mr. BAUMEL. Sorry about that, sir.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Thank you.
I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of questions.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Cimino, can you explain why the SBIC program remains an
important source of investment financing for so many small busi-
nesses and startups? And can you explain how this program fulfills
the statutory mission of SBA?
Mr. CIMINO. Yeah. Thank you for the question.
When we look at most entrepreneurs, in many cases they
couldn’t even access traditional financing. So, unless they were
independently wealthy, many of them would only be able to build
those ideas at incumbent companies. So private capital itself is so
critical to unlocking more people to become entrepreneurs and
build small businesses, ultimately driving much of this economic
growth.
So the first part is the availability of that loan. The next piece
is working with these fund managers in ways that can get
customizable arrangements, whether that is equity or debt, that
more aligns with the business and then becoming strategic part-
ners.
Where SBICs come in is, in many cases, broadening that reach.
Because, as I mentioned, 50 percent of the capital went to Cali-
fornia, on the venture side. When you look at the SBIC program,
only 10 percent of the capital went to California. That means 90
percent of that is going into the areas of the country that the tradi-
tional funders weren’t.
And this is exactly what SBIC is doing. It is taking that profes-
sional manager and giving more access to capital for more entre-
preneurs.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
Mr. Palmer, I heard you mentioning the investments that have
been made through the SBICs in places like Kentucky, Michigan,
Pennsylvania, Minnesota. I didn’t hear even New York or Brooklyn.
Mr. PALMER. As a New Yorker——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Was that a slip?
Mr. PALMER. No, no. As a native New Yorker, I apologize——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Okay.
Mr. PALMER.—to my New York brethren. No, New York is a
huge area for SBICs, and there is—it is all over the place.
I was mentioning that just because, when people think of invest-
ment, they think of New York——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Yes.
Mr. PALMER.—they think of Chicago, they think of San Fran-
cisco. They don’t necessarily think of Maryland or Minnesota. And
so I was trying to just——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I was just testing you.
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Mr. PALMER.—but I apologize.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Palmer, Reinvestor SBICs are an often-
overlooked SBIC type that is based on a fund-of-funds model that
uses accrual, debenture, and 2x tiers of leverage to reach more un-
derserved communities.
Can you explain how the Reinvestor SBIC works and why it can
help investment capital reach more rural and underserved commu-
nities?
Mr. PALMER. Sure. No, actually, I think it is great question, be-
cause I don’t get asked it very much, and I think people should
know about it.
The reinvestor model is basically a development league for new
venture capital and new private equity funds to serve underserved
industries like manufacturing, underserved markets like rural or
low-income, or other underserved in different varieties, whatever
you want to make it.
Basically, it takes a SBIC—and it is a fund-of-funds, which is not
a common term outside of finance. But the SBIC then invests in
non-levered SBIC funds around the country that are investing in
different types of businesses.
So it uses the portfolio effect to distribute risk, but develops a
whole next generation of investors, whether it be venture, private
equity, growth equity, around the country. And it is a really mar-
ket-driven development league.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
Mr. Palmer, let me start with you on this question. With the an-
nounced plan by the SBA to cut more than 40 percent of the work-
force, what consequences do you foresee happening to the SBIC
program without the proper personnel in place to manage it, espe-
cially when the SBIC requires technical understanding about mar-
ket strategy, time horizons, deal flaws, and the utilization of lever-
age to properly manage and oversee?
Mr. PALMER. Sure.
The SBIC program is about $50 billion, and it is managed on
about $11 million of salary. That is about 100 times more efficient
than generally the private sector runs on when they are managing
private equity funds.
It is a really specialized skill set that is needed. It is a taxpayer
protection, particularly on the licensing side to know what you are
getting into.
But, so far, we haven’t seen any negative impacts on the SBIC
side of the house yet. Again, it is early days.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Well——
Mr. PALMER. But it is important to maintain that skill set. And
one of the things we would like to see is the fees that the SBICs
pay stay inside the SBIC program so we can maintain the staff
that we have and you can bring in other expertise.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Cimino, would you care to comment?
Mr. CIMINO. Yeah. I think it is really critical that we double-
down on the programs that are working. This is a public-private
partnership that is driving capital to more entrepreneurs, and it is
doing so while protecting taxpayers. That staffing to make sure
that these funds are operating correctly gets at that point.
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Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. So that means that a chainsaw is not the
proper tool to deal with reorganization.
Mr. CIMINO. I——
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
Mr. CIMINO. We recommend this program maintain its support.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Okay.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Congressman Stauber from the great State of
Minnesota for 5 minutes.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much.
You know, public-private partnerships like the SBIC program
pair government-backed support with private-sector investment.
These programs not only strengthen small businesses but they also
help secure supply chains and advance national security.
Mr. Palmer, I, for one, don’t mind that you mentioned Minnesota
before you do New York. I appreciate that. It is the Midwest.
A couple of things. I will tell you that—you had mentioned some-
thing about the success rate when SBICs get involved. Can you
kind of give me a percentage of the success rate or maybe the lim-
ited failure rate?
Mr. PALMER. Well, the SBIC program went to zero subsidy—the
SBIC debenture program has run zero subsidy for 27 years. That
is a good, long run. In the last 2 years, they haven’t had to write
off a dime of debentures there. It has been running at a surplus.
We hope it continues that way.
Even in the event that—look, not every—sometimes businesses—
things don’t work out.
Mr. STAUBER. Yep.
Mr. PALMER. In the unlikely event that happens, everything is
covered by fees paid by the SBIC fund to protect the taxpayer.
So the SBICs, again, on average, add about 150 new jobs for a
debt——
Mr. STAUBER. Yep.
Mr. PALMER.—offering private credit and about 350 for equity.
Those are really big numbers for small businesses.
Mr. STAUBER. Yeah.
Mr. PALMER. It is very unusual to have a strikeout in the SBIC
world.
Mr. STAUBER. And so, can you explain a little bit more—the
SBICs, they have been used to support manufacturers in under-
served or rural communities like the one I represent. And what
more can we do to the outreach?
I love when you talk about 90 percent of the venture capitalists
go to the coastal elites. But what about in the heartland, the SBICs
coming to the heartland? Are we doing a good job of that? And
what can we do even better?
Mr. PALMER. Well, Minnesota has a very large number of
SBICs. And, actually, the Chairwoman of my board in I think 3
years will be from Minnesota. And you actually—and excuse me if
I butcher the name. Is it ‘‘Baudette’’?
Mr. STAUBER. ‘‘Baudette,’’ yes.
Mr. PALMER. You have a pharmaceutical manufacturer that is
backed by an SBIC up there.
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I think the key is, you have to have—you know, geographic di-
versity matters, because proximity matters, and also sizes. You
have to allow for small SBICs as well as big SBICs, because, you
know, you just have different check sizes that are needed for dif-
ferent places.
And so the program has grown from, when I started in 2008,
from about $2 billion in capital, between private capital and SBA
leverage, to nearly $50 billion today. And it is done at a zero sub-
sidy.
That is continuing. I think there is massive room for more
growth in that. And I think the licensing is helpful. They just li-
censed their first fund in North Dakota. They have just given their
first green light to a fund in Mississippi. They are forming funds
in Kentucky. We have a number of them in Texas.
Sorry I left out Texas earlier, Mr. Chairman.
But, you know, we can and should have more.
Mr. STAUBER. Again, you can take Minnesota over Texas. You
can say that first. I am okay with that.
Is that okay, Mr. Chair?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Whatever you say.
Mr. STAUBER. So this is really good news. So this is—as the
Small Business Committee, this is where we need to invest more
of. As the gentleman Mr. Cimino said, we need to invest more
where things are working and reduce the investment where the re-
turn on the investment isn’t there.
Mr. PALMER. Yeah. This is working.
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Baumel, what advantages have you seen in
investing in businesses outside the traditional coastal hubs? And
what more can be done to connect investors with small businesses
in regions like your central Ohio or my northern Minnesota?
Mr. BAUMEL. Yeah. As I mentioned, my first investment was in
Bemidji, Minnesota, Optical Solutions (ph).
Mr. STAUBER. Yeah.
Mr. BAUMEL. Since then, both coasts, I said, and Ohio.
In terms of, you know, the Midwest, the work ethic is absolutely
strong. The passion is very——
Mr. STAUBER. Could you repeat that?
Mr. BAUMEL. The work ethic is very, very strong. There is a
Midwestern——
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you. I agree with you.
Mr. BAUMEL.—work ethic and a Texas work ethic——
Mr. STAUBER. Good one.
He covered you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. BAUMEL.—and there is a passion. Our founders are not
thinking about, oh, in data science, what might be an interesting
algorithm to write? They are running into real-world problems.
We have a person and a case, MDPCA (ph) program, that says,
these binders of clinical studies are crazy, and trying to find them
and where they are, and compliance sign-offs—someone forgot—
and doing multi-trial sites. Well, let’s automate all this and have
a nice workflow.
So the entrepreneurs are very passionate, and they really believe
in what they do.
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And the people don’t switch—the grass isn’t always greener. The
people who join Midwestern startups stay and see it through. They
have fortitude. They make it happen. I am sure it is the same way
in Texas. They make it happen. They are not looking for, oh, this
could be better, or this is a little bit more attractive, my options
here, my options there.
I will tell you, to your previous question, we do get some people
that are SBIC-backed that co-invest with us, but not enough. In
terms of doing that, though, if the regulation and compliance is
reasonable, I think that will be key. Because I can’t hire—I mean,
I am operating under hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees,
which isn’t much to cover a staff of six and everything else. I can’t
hire a whole compliance department, and I can’t go through a
whole ton of regulation. It has to be reasonable.
Mr. STAUBER. I like that, reasonable regulations.
And, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from the great State of Kentucky
for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate everybody being here today.
You know, I think we are at the fork in the road right now in
our country, and we have a choice to make between tearing down
or completely tearing apart these federal programs that have sup-
ported entrepreneurs and innovation for the last half-century or
continuing to invest in these partnerships that have made the U.S.
a leader in innovation because we want to stay a leader in innova-
tion.
Just this morning, there is an interesting, if angering, and
thought-provoking piece by Thomas Friedman in The New York
Times about, what is the future of American innovation? So I think
it is really important we are talking about this today.
And I think we can look at some of the successes we have had.
You know, with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency,
commonly known as DARPA, housed under the Department of De-
fense, not only do we gain a technological advantage on the battle-
field, it enabled us to have things like GPS. It enabled us to have
great technologies. The internet came out of DARPA that not only
do we use for defense but have applications in all of our lives, pri-
vate and in the business community.
The SBIC program, the Small Business Investment Company,
this has been really successful. This has helped us bring Samsung,
Apple, Intel, Whole Foods, so many more American success stories,
driving business, driving innovation right here in this country.
I think the question we have to ask ourselves is not whether we
can afford to invest in and support programs like the SBIC; it is,
can we afford not to?
And, Mr. Baumel, I appreciate what you said about startups and
that they are not just for the coastal elites. Now, you guys ne-
glected to mention a Kentucky work ethic when you talked about
these things. But you also went to Ohio State and Michigan, so I
don’t know if you can be completely trusted.
But I think you are 100 percent correct that we must remember
the heartland and not just Silicon Valley and Wall Street when
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looking for the next investment opportunity to invest in that next
unicorn, to invest in that next business which is going to do incred-
ible and great things in our country.
So I will start with you, Mr. Baumel. What growth opportunities
does the middle part of the country present? And how can we en-
courage more investors to follow your path and to invest in small
businesses and startups outside of Silicon Valley?
Mr. BAUMEL. Going back to Silicon Valley, everything started
with Fairchild Semiconductor. And from there, Intel spun out,
Kleiner Perkins spun out, all these things spun out.
Very early on in the Midwest, in Ohio, Kentucky, and other
areas, there is a huge risk for entrepreneurs to start a business if
there isn’t reasonable access to capital. There is a huge risk for
someone to leave Procter & Gamble or Nationwide Insurance and
join a startup if that startup, you know, 80 percent of the time,
might not work out. Where do I go next? Do I try and reapply to
Nationwide?
So, you know, programs that allow additional funding to come in
and maybe incent people like myself—they call us ‘‘boomerangs,’’
that, you know, I was out in Silicon Valley, I have been in Boston,
I have come back to do this in the heartland. We need to incent
more, you know, seasoned venture capitalists who are willing to set
up shop and willing to mentor and willing to train and willing to
hire.
And I know, you know, in Cincinnati, we have a number of com-
panies—Enable Injections, that, you know, is likely a company—
that likely will be a unicorn-type exit, providing, you know, kind
of, on-body drug delivery, you know, at home versus an IV in a
clinic.
Northern Kentucky, I know that a lady just set up a, kind of,
biotech area there, and there is a lot of biotech activity happening
right across, you know, the Ohio River. You know, but we need
that capital. We need—I mean, there is myself and a few other peo-
ple in Ohio. There is not much. And as far as experience, there is
not much.
So we need, you know, this type of program to say, okay, we
want to incent, we want to enable, we want to be somewhat user-
friendly, you know, with the people that we are trying to incent
and give capital to through the SBA programs to come and set up
the venture fund and work with all them, not make it a headache.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Yeah. I appreciate that.
And Mr. Cimino? Sure.
Mr. CIMINO. Just on that—and I agree with everything—and
we have talked about this: That first check, distance really mat-
ters. Capital is mobile, but proximity matters. And there is actually
a very significant body of research about how much distance mat-
ters.
But it is also about building that flywheel, which I think you
have done. Because what we have also seen is that a startup with
the same positioning in a generic town versus that in S.F., S.F. has
a 277 percent chance more likelihood that that startup grows and
has an exit. And the reason that is is because of talent.
And so you not only need that first check, you need those SBICs
and those investors continuing to build that infrastructure around
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it. Otherwise, as soon as that startup or small business starts
growing, they are encouraged to move back to where those infra-
structures exist.
So it is a comprehensive problem that needs to be solved. That
first check is so critical, but then it is, to your point, how do we
keep more investment going there.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you so much.
And I think this partnership is so important to innovation, to
growth in American business. And if we are not doing it, other
places are.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of Pennsylvania
for 5 minutes.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And thanks to our witnesses.
I am certainly a big fan of the SBIC, as we really all should be.
We are very happy SBA Administrator Kelly Loeffler and the
Trump administration are going to be focused like a laser beam on
fueling small business, because small business has not had a good
4 years. That needs to change. In some cases their sales are up,
but their net income is way down. And that shows in the type of
tax revenue that is coming in, because tax revenue comes from
profitability, and small-business tax revenue is way down. You
can’t argue with those numbers. But we are going to work on
changing that.
So the SBIC plays a big role here. And it has been very, very suc-
cessful. The fact is that—no subsidies and cost to taxpayers. Over
$130 billion is being invested in public-private partnerships, basi-
cally, so there is a lot of private-sector skin in the game. And this
has created great opportunities. It is a great government program,
which is hard to say, right? But it is.
You know, and we are talking, kind of joking about Minnesota
versus New York and California and Texas, where things are
booming, but the fact is that 75 to 80 percent of the SBIC current
investments go towards urban areas.
And that is primarily why—Mr. Palmer, you are well-aware, and
I think all of you are—that I am introducing the Investing in All
of America Act to expand beyond the cap level of $175 billion, to
increase it by about $125 billion, strictly towards—or $175 mil-
lion—strictly towards—$125 billion wouldn’t be bad either—to-
wards rural investments—that is where it is designated, so it is on
top of what is currently allocated—focused on manufacturing and
critical technology sectors.
So, Mr. Palmer, what do you think of that? How have the SBIC
programs been successful in their current operation? And how will
the Investing in All of America Act help enhance investments in
Pennsylvania and in some of the more rural areas of our great na-
tion?
Mr. PALMER. I think, if we get this legislation through and it
becomes law, I think you will see every SBIC, or nearly every
SBIC, dedicate their business development teams to finding small
businesses in those areas. Because it is a meaningful cap that they
have now and that they will continue to have, but it is—if you in-
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vest in manufacturing or if you invest in a rural area—and, frank-
ly, most new manufacturing is going to be in rural areas because
of taxes, regulations, just where can you afford to by the land to
build a really big, you know, building to put this stuff in.
I think you will see a meaningful pivot for a lot of those business
development folks to get out of where they normally are and spread
their deal-sourcing and small-business opportunity-seeking to those
areas, both industry-wise as well as geographically.
Mr. MEUSER. Great.
Mr. Baumel, do you agree? Do you think we need to expand this
great lending service where there is a two-to-one match from the
SBA to the private lenders, SBIC, regulated lenders?
Mr. BAUMEL. Anything that brings more capital to partner with
the expertise and incents the expertise to be in the heartland, the
better. That—you know, that is——
Mr. MEUSER. Yeah.
Mr. BAUMEL.—about what I have to say on that.
Mr. MEUSER. All right. Well, that sums it up. I like that.
Do you agree, Mr. Cimino?
Mr. CIMINO. I do. We support the bill.
And I would just say, coupling that with some of the recent re-
finements we have seen from the SBIC, like the fund-of-fund struc-
tures, it is going to, I think, do an even better job of finding addi-
tional avenues to drive investment into rural areas and broaden
this ecosystem.
Mr. MEUSER. Great. Would you encourage everyone on this
Committee, perhaps throughout Congress, to be supportive of this
all-important bill?
Mr. CIMINO. I think that is great idea.
Mr. MEUSER. All right. Great. Thank you.
Hey, Mr. Baumel, the SEC has estimates that going public these
days costs $12 million for a business. So maybe elaborate a little
bit on why these private markets are so important and such an im-
portant alternative for small businesses to raise capital.
Mr. BAUMEL. Yeah. When I started in venture capital, even
with the internet, some companies with $10 million, $20 million
went public. Now, companies need to have hundreds of millions
and, in some cases, billions of dollars to go public. So accessing, you
know, the public market is difficult.
And the regulatory burden there is also very difficult. So growing
these companies to the public market—because that point is a
longer process, not a few years but a decade. And, therefore, that
relationship is needed and the capital is needed and expertise is
needed to get them there.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you all very much, and please keep up the
great work.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Cisneros of the great State of California for
5 minutes.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And, look, no offense to our witnesses here today—thank you for
being here; thank you for taking time out of your schedules to be
here today—but we really need to have somebody from the SBA,
whether the Administrator or other staff, here to be here to answer
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these questions, to talk about what the theme of this hearing is,
fueling America’s future. We should have people from the SBA here
answering those questions.
And I call on the Chairman and the Committee to bring in the
SBA Administrator, bring in SBA staff, to start answering these
questions.
And if the SBA Administrator were here today, I would have the
following questions for her: You know, what is the extent of
DOGE’s access to SBA headquarters and systems? And what has
been done at the SBA to ensure that systems are not abused or
accessed by individuals without clearance?
What specific offices or departments within the SBA are affected
by the announced 43-percent reduction of the workforce? And how
is that going to affect SBICs? Where is the SBA relocating the six
regional offices, and will any others be closed in the future? And
how is that going to affect SBICs?
You know, how are appropriated funds being used or not used,
with the SBA undergoing such drastic changes that Congress has
not authorized? And what is the SBA’s plan to handle a $1.7 tril-
lion student-loan portfolio with less staff and staff not trained to
work with such a complex student-loan system?
So, again, I call on this Committee to bring in the SBA Adminis-
trator, to bring in SBA staff, and let them answer the questions
about what their job is going to do and how they are going to han-
dle that job as far as dealing with small businesses across America.
And, with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Finstad from the great State of Minnesota
for 5 minutes.
Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Chairman Williams.
And thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
Since the start of President Trump’s administration, optimism
among our nation’s small-business owners has soared. President
Trump has put small-business owners first by cutting regulations
and red tape for main street.
Southern Minnesota is home to some of the most innovative com-
panies that do cutting-edge manufacturing to provide critical prod-
ucts for our nation. We are the home of great ag companies. We
have counties that have more pigs than people. We are the home
of Hormel. If you like Spam, you like southern Minnesota. We are
the home of the Mayo Clinic and all of the great healthcare and
med-tech innovations that come out of our district. We are really
proud of that. And we also have a lot of small businesses that are
working with our Department of Defense.
Small businesses are the backbone of our economy in Minnesota,
and we have the opportunity to craft meaningful policies to encour-
age investments in these businesses that produce critical goods for
our nation’s security while providing stable, high-paying jobs in our
communities.
So, with that being said, I want to talk to Mr. Baumel.
Throughout your career working in numerous States, including
Minnesota—I am happy to hear you spent some time in Bemidji—
I am sure you have worked with numerous companies that touch
rural America. And as I travel around my district and around the
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country, specifically in rural America, you hear a lot of the same
themes of, you know, access to capital, the lack thereof. Venture
capital looks at rural America as a flyover area.
And so I want to talk to you a little bit about that. So, with your
fund, are you more likely to engage with entrepreneurs in rural
communities located in middle America rather than companies lo-
cated on the coasts? And why is that?
Mr. BAUMEL. You know, our fund does not invest on the coasts
to any degree, less than probably 5 percent of capital. So we are
all within, you know, the heartland, I will call it. Within the heart-
land, probably about 25 to 30 percent of our investments are in
rural America, such as Stirling Ultracold in Athens, Ohio, and
those sorts of things.
And as I mentioned previously, what we have found is, the entre-
preneurs in those areas run into real problems, and they want to
solve those. And so they create companies to do that, but they have
no idea how to scale that up—the hiring, the product roadmap, the
strategic partnerships, the marketing, the sales, the go-to-market,
the fundraising, how to navigate SBIC, how to navigate, you know,
eventually, as you become larger and profitable, bank lending, ad-
ditional venture rounds.
But these entrepreneurs are also very—so hardworking and for-
titude, but they are also very reasonable. So, you know, we have
reasonable terms—we form a true partnership where everyone has
equity. We have equity, they have equity, we all work together.
And we are just taking a pie and trying to make it as big as pos-
sible for everyone.
And what I have found is, when you do that, whether that is in
Bemidji within Minnesota, whether that is in Athens, Ohio, as I
mentioned earlier, when there is that initial success, they catch the
startup bug too. It is not just the founders; the people that work
there, the people in engineering, the people in marketing, the peo-
ple everywhere catch that startup bug, and they want to continue
to that. And so then they form more startups. And then, you know,
the people that made a nice return then invest as angel investors
in startups. It is kind of, you know, a cycle like that.
And so I have found it a very great place for innovation. It is also
less competitive and less crazy. You know, keeping people focused
is a lot easier in Athens, in Columbus, in Bemidji, Minnesota, than
it is in Silicon Valley, keeping them focused on the mission, making
it happen, getting successful returns.
I mean, we are—you know, like, Stirling Ultracold, we sold the
company for, let’s say, anywhere from $200 million to $400 mil-
lion—because it was for stock—on a $10 million investment. And
like I said, now there are 40 angel investors out there in Athens
investing some of those proceeds in the next startup that wants to,
you know, succeed and such.
Mr. FINSTAD. I appreciate those comments.
And what I hear there is, the investments and the partnerships
with innovation and entrepreneurs in our rural communities really
are a great opportunity not only to create jobs and wealth and se-
curity for our rural communities but also future opportunities of in-
vestments and catching that entrepreneurial bug that you talked
about. That is great to hear.
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So our colleagues across the aisle, you know, have called for, you
know, demanding the SBA and government to come in front of us
and talk to us about more government. I am so happy that the
Chairman has chose to bring real people that are doing real things
for our communities to come in front of us today.
And so, with that being said, lastly, I just want to know, Mr.
Baumel, in your view and the experiences that you have on Main
Street America, what can we do in Congress and on this Com-
mittee to drive economic growth in rural America?
Mr. BAUMEL. I think, you know, as I said earlier, capital and
less regulatory, you know, tape around it and less barriers to that.
And then partnering with the expertise, the venture capitalists, the
people with experience in those areas, to then deploy that and help
these companies grow and keep that cycle going.
Mr. FINSTAD. I appreciate those comments.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Olszewski from the great State of Maryland
for 5 minutes.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to all of our witnesses for your time today.
I am going to actually pick up—I was not planning on doing
this—picking up on my colleague’s comments as we talk about the
importance about the private sector but also government. And I
will just open with a question for all of you.
I mean, there is value in partnership. I mean, we certainly be-
lieve in the private sector, but there certainly is power and promise
in having the government, done right, partner with the private sec-
tor.
Is that something we can all agree to?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Okay. Very good.
So, Mr. Chairman, I just want to say, you know, we certainly are
grateful for the ways in which you are bringing in folks who are
real people leading the work out there, but I actually think that
these conversations would be even more robust if we also had the
leadership of SBA alongside these leaders doing the work.
So, gentlemen, thank you for being here, for the work you are
leading. But I will just reinforce the point of my colleague, that I
think this is done best when we actually have those conversations
together and collaboratively.
You know, I wanted to pick up a little bit on, Mr. Cimino, some
of the comments you were talking about and this ‘‘access to capital’’
idea.
I was struck by a recent statistic that says that private credit
firms that are at least 50 percent women or minority-owned hold
a combined total of less than 2 percent of $1.6 trillion of private
credit assets under management.
Now, those numbers are slightly higher in private equity, at just
over 3 percent, and 6 percent in venture capital.
I am just curious what you think those statistics say about the
state of these industries or the small businesses in which they are
investing.
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Mr. CIMINO. Well, I think it is pretty clear that we have not
done enough to drive more capital into the hands of these entre-
preneurs. And I think that is what this Committee is focused on,
on broadening access into not only the overlooked communities but,
I would say, untapped. There is a huge amount of ingenuity and
talent in these communities and among these segments.
And so how do we actually get capital in their hands and help
them build? We think about doing that through lowering barriers
to entry and supporting more and more emerging managers that
can be in these regions and these communities helping not only
drive capital but partnering to broaden it and help them grow.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. That is great. I appreciate that.
I mean, yeah, according to recent data from Morgan Stanley, we
could be missing out on more than $4 trillion in value by not in-
vesting in more underserved entrepreneurs.
And so, just for the panel, I just wanted to open it up: Just, sort
of, ideas on how we can get more capital to more places so that we
can access this untapped potential.
Mr. PALMER. Well, one thing I would add—you touched on
women. Like, my executive board is two-thirds women. I mean, in
the SBIC world, women are normal. You know, that is not nec-
essarily true in the rest of the finance and banking world and the
venture world. The SBIC world has been far more opening and wel-
coming in that regard, and supportive. Maybe that is because it is
small versus big; I don’t know. But we want to continue that.
But, ultimately, you know, the economics will drive it. But I
think, as we see more women fund managers, as we see more mi-
nority fund managers, as we have more fund managers, like Bill
mentioned, you know, that are boomerangs, that are leaving the
big money centers and coming back to middle America—I think we
just have to make sure that we are open to everybody and being
inclusive, as far as, like, making sure that the meritocracy rises to
the top, and then the good people will rise, and we are going to see
good things from them.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Bill?
Mr. BAUMEL. I would like to add, you know, for example, the
National Venture Capital Association has something called, kind
of, the Forward program, which is looking at, you know, those that
typically haven’t been represented as much in venture capital and
entrepreneurship. And, actually, myself and one of my colleagues,
Faith Voinovich, were one of the initial mentors of that program.
So there are programs like that being done within the venture
capital community to—because it is more of a craft. So, you know,
mentor, teach and all that, and open up that access, which can cut
across demographics, as you mentioned, but also, you know,
geographics, in the Midwest.
Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Yeah. Well, we certainly welcome the chance
to work with you to bring more investment to Maryland as well.
Again, thank you all for your time and your feedback today.
And, Mr. Chairman, with that, I will yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
for 5 minutes.
Mr. DOWNING. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
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And thank you to our witnesses for providing these testimonies.
I represent Montana’s Second Congressional District. It is one of
the least populated areas of the country, about 7.6 people per
square mile. And another fun status: We have more than twice as
many cows as people. You get a lot of windshield time driving
around my district.
But the issues are, a lot of these population centers are far apart
and isolated from a lot of these communities. And so it is hard, you
know, having access to economic hubs, having access to capital. It
can be difficult for small businesses and for farms and ranches.
I believe we need to pay more attention to these rural capital-
access challenges. That is why I introduced the Expanding Access
to Capital for Rural Job Creators Act earlier this year. This legisla-
tion requires the Securities and Exchange Commission’s Office of
the Advocate for Small Business Capital Formation to report on
capital-access issues faced by rural small businesses.
So I am going to start, Mr. Palmer, with, do you believe the fed-
eral government, particularly under the Biden administration, has
paid adequate attention to the difficulties that rural small busi-
nesses face in securing capital?
Mr. PALMER. I don’t think anyone has provided adequate atten-
tion to rural America. Part of it is because there are fewer people
and it just doesn’t get media coverage.
I mean, I remember, I was in New Orleans after Hurricane
Katrina, and New Orleans got all the coverage, and people skipped
over just what happened in Mississippi, which was just as bad or
worse——
Mr. DOWNING. Right.
Mr. PALMER.—because you just—when you—you can’t see peo-
ple crying.
And I think rural America has suffered from that for a long pe-
riod of time. I think this hearing has been fantastic in helping
highlight that.
But I do think the SEC looking at that, and the Small Business
Advocate, makes a lot of sense. I want to take a look at your legis-
lation. I think the Meuser bill helps in that regard.
But there are definitely unique challenges that rural America
has, whether it be broadband, whether it be infrastructure for
manufacturing as far as rail lines and highway lines, employee
base. You know, there are unique challenges, but I think this is
where informed public policy can help develop that.
But, you know, I think we really have to be deliberate in helping
rural America. It is not just going to happen magically.
Mr. DOWNING. Can you provide any insight into what role
SBICs can play in supporting small businesses in, you know, less
populated, less dense areas?
Mr. PALMER. Sure.
I think one of the things that States like—because Montana and
Wyoming and Alaska have had very few—Hawaii is another—have
had very few SBIC investments. They have had a handful but not
nearly enough.
I think part of that is—and this is something Bill touched on—
is, the cost of forming an SBIC can run north of $500,000 to form
one. And if you are—you need smaller funds in smaller markets.
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You know, I mean, sure, it would be great if someone had a
multi-billion-dollar platform in Bozeman, you know, and liked to
hike in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, one of my favorite places in
the world. But, you know, you need smaller funds for these smaller
markets that can write smaller checks for these transactions these
small businesses need.
And I think not losing sight of the smaller funds is important,
because they can serve places like Nevada and Wyoming, and that
is what we need. We need more smaller funds, not just big.
Mr. DOWNING. And so how do you see—or what specific advan-
tages do you think SBICs have to provide for rural small busi-
nesses than traditional bank lending and government-issued loans?
Mr. PALMER. Well, I think they do two things.
One, they are a capital amplifier. So the private sector leads. It
is not the government saying, ‘‘You shall invest this way,’’ because
it is generally not going to work. You know, the private sector sees
the opportunity, they put their money where their mouth is, them-
selves first, and then the SBA amplifies it with the SBIC. I think
that is really helpful.
I think having more of these SBICs in smaller markets will be
helpful, but to do that, they need to allow more smaller funds to
get formed. Because for a long time they wouldn’t license anyone
who hadn’t raised at least $25 million or $30 million in a two-to-
one that is a $90 million fund.
Look, every small business would love, you know, a $10 million
check. Some of them need a $1 million check or a $500,000 check.
And so we have to make sure the program scales down to these
smaller markets to make sure that they can be developed markets
too.
Mr. DOWNING. So, in my district, we don’t have any registered
SBICs. What are some ways that we can expand participation and
access to these programs?
Mr. PALMER. I think, for Montana—and Wyoming, too, which is
one of your neighbors who faces a similar challenge—I think bring-
ing the banks together is the first start.
Because the banks—up until Gramm-Leach-Bliley, most banks
actually had an SBIC internally, because banks aren’t allowed to
take equity positions in small businesses. They weren’t allowed to
under Glass-Steagall; that changed with Gramm-Leach-Bliley. But
SBICs used to have an internal one so they could take some of
their capital and do equity investments, the likes of which banks
can’t normally do. But banks weren’t allowed to invest in SBICs.
And so, if we get the regional banks and the—and also RBICs,
Rural Business Investment Companies, which are done by USDA,
which are our members. I think if we get them together, you
know—I would be happy to talk to you offline. I hear the tapping
of the gavel.
Mr. DOWNING. Yeah. I have run out of time. Thank you very
much.
Mr. PALMER. I would be happy to talk to you more.
Mr. DOWNING. Mr. Chair, I yield.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Tran from the great State of California for
5 minutes.
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Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Palmer, in December of 2022, the Biden administration
launched the Small Business Investment Company Critical Tech-
nology Initiative. This is a joint initiative between the SBA and De-
fense Department that utilizes the SBIC program to strengthen
U.S. national security by attracting and scaling public-private in-
vestment into the DOD critical technology areas.
First, are you supportive of the initiative?
Mr. PALMER. Very.
Mr. TRAN. And if so, can you explain why SBICs are appro-
priately positioned to further this initiative?
Mr. PALMER. Well, a couple reasons.
One, SBICs are market-driven. And so it is not, you know, just
a subsidy and pumping things up. It is looking for genuine opportu-
nities that can sustain themselves.
They are geographically dispersed, where not everything else is.
And they are regulated in a way that can limit foreign investors,
as DOD, I think, sometimes needs. Because one of the things that
does happen is—you know, one of the ways you can do industrial
spycraft if you are a hostile foreign power is, you have your folks
invest in venture funds or private equity funds and you see what
technologies are working and which ones aren’t. And so I think,
you know, knowing who you are doing government contracts with,
or things that are adjacent to government contracts, to make sure
that they are aligned with Americans’ national-security interest
just makes a lot of sense.
Mr. TRAN. Yeah.
And on that same note, you know, and from a more macro-
economic perspective, can you explain the importance of continuing
to utilize the SBIC program to invest in critical technologies in
order to compete on the global stage against foreign adversaries,
including the CCP?
Mr. PALMER. Yeah. And I think we need to compete with every-
one but particularly—these other countries are actively supporting
their companies with subsidies, with industrial espionage, with all
sorts of other things. We don’t need to do the underhanded stuff;
we just need to do the smart stuff.
And the smart stuff is making sure we are putting our money
where our mouth is, making sure we are supporting investing in
American manufacturing, in industries that we want here that may
not be manufacturing.
And these aren’t all government contractors. There are certain
industries, like AI, that we need here. And I think, you know, Bill
touched on, like, supercooling. Like, these computers, you have to
keep them cold, you know, for a high-speed, you know, transaction
in certain cases.
And so some of that technology and some of that research that
has been done by the Department of Defense that the U.S. tax-
payers already paid for, let’s make sure that technology is being
used for American companies to do those things. Because, you
know, it is already there. Let’s get it in the right hands of the right
Americans to make use of it.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you.
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And, Mr. Cimino, similar question: Are you supportive of this ini-
tiative? And how do you recommend we engage further and scale
up investments in critical technology, both in terms of the SBIC
program and more broadly?
Mr. CIMINO. Yes, we do support the program and the expansion
of it. To, I think, your last point, this is how we actually win as
a country, is continuing to double-down on what works.
And, specifically, the private capital model is what allows this
type of scale and growth. Not only does it provide that long-term,
patient capital, where it is going to be challenging, hard problems,
but putting the capital and investment behind it to tackle it, but
then it is going to be strategic partners that have the same vision
in mind to ultimately build that.
When you couple that with the SBIC’s process on everything
from licensing to oversight, it does ensure that those visions are
aligned for a very not only good technological outcome but one that
benefits the country.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you.
And, you know, I proudly represent California’s 45th Congres-
sional District, which is a majority-minority community, where mi-
nority-owned businesses are a significant part of Orange County’s
local economy. But minority entrepreneurs still face numerous bar-
riers to success, such as having a difficult time obtaining capital
from external investors or lenders.
According to recent data published by Morgan Stanley, venture
capital investors could be missing out on more than $4 trillion in
value by not investing in more underserved communities and en-
trepreneurs.
Mr. Cimino, wouldn’t you agree that focusing more on under-
served entrepreneurs and small-business owners could help inves-
tors increase their returns?
Mr. CIMINO. A hundred percent. It would not only lead to eco-
nomic activity and benefit for the specific entrepreneur and the
people they employ and the community, but it would lead to a huge
amount of untapped economic opportunity for those investors. And
we need to do more to support that.
And when we think about that, it goes down to emerging man-
agers, which—when you look at the study, minority emerging man-
agers are 40 percent more likely than their counterparts to invest
in underserved communities. And so really empowering them and
making it easier for them to form funds and deploy capital starts
to address some of that problem. Ultimately, that leads to wealth
creation, attracting even more capital and supporting that eco-
system.
Mr. TRAN. Thank you so much.
And thank you, all the witnesses, being here.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the Northern Mariana Is-
lands for 5 minutes.
Ms. KING-HINDS. So everybody is giving a shout-out to their
States. I don’t know if you have heard of the Northern Marianas,
but I represent the Northern Marianas.
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And so, you know, there is underserved and rural, and then
there is the Northern Mariana Islands. We are just geographically
isolated. Shipping costs are insane. And right now our economy is
tanking, as we speak. We have one primary economic engine,
which is tourism. It hasn’t recovered to pre-pandemic levels.
And so, you know, I am here looking for opportunities for my
community. Every single business in the Northern Marianas is
practically a small business. And I thank you for offering your time
and your ideas, because what I want to hear are your thoughts on
how we can—you know, what can the SBA do to get SBIC-backed
investments working in the Marianas?
Mr. CIMINO. I am not going to pretend to be an expert on some
of these problems, and I do think we need to deliberately think
about it.
But I think this goes back to what was discussed a little bit ear-
lier, is, how do we help more fund mangers, smaller fund managers
with smaller checks be identifying and supporting these areas?
I know we talked a little bit about what SEC can do on that
front, but I think, from a SBA and SBIC perspective, I am opti-
mistic—and I don’t think this will happen by itself, but—that we
can use things like their recent expansion into that Fund-of-Fund
or Reinvestor program where you have fund managers that might
be sitting in Ohio or in San Francisco but recognize that there are
opportunities elsewhere, and what they would know is that they
don’t have the expertise but they can start tapping into and help-
ing smaller fund managers form, grow, and ultimately deploy that
capital into these communities.
It will not happen overnight, but I think the SBIC is already
moving in that direction through the fund-of-fund strategy. Hope-
fully we can be a little bit more deliberate, not only to solve some
of your problems, but to other rural areas that we have already
talked about as well.
Mr. PALMER. We have trouble getting investments in Hawaii
because it is difficult. It is not a concentrated area. The Northern
Marianas and other, you know, American territories are tough,
really tough.
Now, I will say, again, I was not—I don’t have an easy answer
for you on that, or a quick answer. But one of the things that has
been kicked around both with the last administration—the Biden
administration proposed a sovereign wealth fund; President Trump
has proposed a sovereign wealth fund.
If they do a sovereign wealth fund—and I think they are serious
about doing it, but it is an ‘‘if’’; I don’t know. But if they do one,
I would encourage this Committee to have a separate one for small
business and not have it wrapped up in the giant fund. Because it
is very easy for small business to get sort of get crammed down
and sort of forgotten about. But if you had a sovereign wealth fund,
you could equitize and sort of anchor-invest, you know, funds for
specific purposes to specific local needs that are unique. Because I
think the CNMI have unique issues.
But I think, you know, as that idea percolates and develops, that
might be something to pay attention to, but I don’t know of any
easy answers to that in the short term. But I would be happy to
talk to you when we are not under a 5-minute clock.
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Ms. KING-HINDS. Yeah. For sure. Thank you.
Did you want to chime in?
Mr. BAUMEL. I guess, you know, I don’t have—like he was say-
ing, I don’t have any easy answers. I will just tell you, when I have
been going into emergent communities, one of the things that has
to be done is really understanding, kind of, the core and history of
that community.
For example, in Ohio, there is a ton of healthcare—Nationwide
Children’s, Wexner Medical Center, Cincinnati Children’s, Cleve-
land Clinic. How do we leverage that, you know, to create new com-
panies?
Enable Injections, the on-body drug delivery, the needle—is in
Cincinnati Children’s. We have two biotech companies that spun
out, partnered with NIH and BARDA and CARB-X in biothera-
peutics and such.
So I don’t know enough about, you know, your community, but
really looking at a community and saying, is there some history or
area that we can be innovative in, you know, within tourism or
whatever it is, you know, for software opportunities or marketplace
opportunities or what have you?
So each region has its unique history and base to leverage in its
own unique way. That is all I can really offer.
Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and thank you for your
time.
I yield my time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And I now recognize Mr. Latimer from the great State of New
York for 5 minutes.
Mr. LATIMER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to our guests for being here today.
I represent the ‘‘coastal elites’’ of the North Bronx, of the cities
of Yonkers and Mount Vernon. And, while we are on the East
Coast, we have our challenges as well.
And I do just want to say in general—and I take some of the
comments, you know, with a grain of humor, but—America, to me,
is one nation, indivisible. And the rural parts of this nation are im-
portant, even though I don’t represent them, as the urban areas
are important that I do represent, and the suburban areas.
I have lived in the State of Pennsylvania. I have lived in the
State of Ohio. I worked for a corporation in my corporate years for
11 years that was headquartered in Texas, and I had to return to
Texas monthly to interact with people. So I see all of that together
in one broad context.
I must say, I have not been to the Northern Mariana Islands. I
don’t know if my seat on Foreign Affairs will allow that, but time
will tell.
More specifically, though, we have talked a lot about the needs
in the rural areas, which I respect, but the urban areas, too, rep-
resent an area not only of need but of potential growth.
And when I talk to the people in my district—this morning, I
was on a chamber of commerce call for one of the cities that I rep-
resent; I went to one of them when I was in the district last week—
I hear other issues that rise.
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I hear the issues about the unsurety of what this tariff imposi-
tion will be and what it is going to mean to them in terms of the
products that they sell. I hear about the unsurety of workforce
issues with the immigration policies that we have, and will they
find themselves unable to properly staff up to provide the services
due to things they need to do in back-of-the-house situations.
So there are other issues aside from access to capital. Access to
capital is very high on that list.
And just very simply, one question, which I would appreciate
each of you commenting on: How do you see the challenges of—and
the strategies necessary to incentivize small businesses in urban
settings?
Now, we know that there are large businesses. I have them in
my home county. I was county executive for 7 years. Well aware
of those businesses and the equivalent ones that exist in Silicon
Valley and so forth. But there is still an urban energy and entre-
preneurship that we have to figure out, how do we incentivize that?
It might fall into the category of women or minority, but it may or
may not, but they are in an urban environment.
And so I would appreciate your thinking on it. I will start with
Mr. Cimino, and I appreciate each of you commenting.
Mr. CIMINO. First, I really commend you on your comments of—
I know we were all joking around, but, yes, it is very much a
united front here.
I think to drive more capital is key, as we have discussed. But
I think the other component of capital—and I completely under-
stand your point of, like, it is not just about capital. But when we
see investment come in through private sources, they often turn
into partners.
And so the SEC has recently talked about: Businesses that ac-
cept investment from either venture or P are 12 percent less likely
to fail. And that is because they become strategic partners and help
them think through everything from how might a government reg-
ulation need to be adhered to or navigated, to how they might help
with connecting them to partners, customers, the right tech-
nologies. And so we treat this very much as, there is skin in the
game for these businesses.
I think the other component there that we have to look to is, how
do we think about empowering more of the employee base to have
ownership in these types of companies? Because, ultimately, that
not only, as I said earlier in my statement, improves performance
of the company itself by creating a more talented and aligned work-
force, but then helps them have a stake in an economic benefit that
comes out of that company and makes them even more part of that
community, where they are able to tap into more and more of that
network.
Mr. BAUMEL. Quickly, what we learned in some of the urban
communities—downtown Cleveland, downtown Columbus, and
downtown Cincinnati—is create a space for that that looks innova-
tive, that is open, that allows collaboration and all those sorts of
things.
So you need some sort—it is tough walking down the street to
say, I am just going to start a startup in downtown Columbus or
in Brooklyn or such. But if you have an area, you know, that is
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meant for these startups to get started, to work together, to col-
laborate, to share stories and all that, that epicenter can really be
helpful in allowing, you know, entrepreneurs to come together, you
know, and grow.
Mr. PALMER. Congressman, I would say that a lot of the reason
why the discussion is about rural is because that is where it is
missing. A huge amount of the investment by SBICs and private
equity and venture is in urban. There is just a lot more economic
activity and opportunity in urban areas. You have more people, you
have more money around, you have more connectivity of univer-
sities and other things. So there is a lot there.
And, actually, as it relates to the SBICs, we have a lot of them—
forgive me for being a Long Islander, of, everything north of Har-
lem is ‘‘upstate’’—but it is a—there is a—the bulk of the SBICs in
New York are in upstate New York, in Buffalo, Albany, places not
that far from you. But they are investing in places like your back-
yard.
But I think the key thing is just making sure—for urban areas,
making sure that it is a vibrant, safe place. You have a lot of
banks, a lot of financial institutions. Keeping those chambers of
commerce together to connect with the private capital markets.
And there are huge advantages they have over everyone else.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is up.
Mr. LATIMER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. He yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Wied from the great State of Wisconsin for
5 minutes.
Mr. WIED. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this
hearing.
And thank you to the witnesses who have come here today to
share their experiences.
Small Business Investment Companies, SBICs, with the support
of the Small Business Administration, provide important capital in-
vestment to small businesses across our nation.
In my district, manufacturers are a significant portion of our
economy. We have over 1,000 manufacturing firms, employing al-
most one-quarter of our working population, with 89 percent of
those manufacturing firms in my district classified as small busi-
nesses.
SBICs provide needed capital investment for manufacturers like
Vehicle Security Innovators in Green Bay, which hired six new em-
ployees after SBIC investment.
However, gaps in manufacturers’ access to capital continue to
exist. To help fill those important gaps, I am proud to cosponsor
the Investing in All of America Act, which will incentivize SBICs
to invest further in manufacturers in rural America—what I call
‘‘real America,’’ main street—which is our district, with no new
spending mandates or subsidies.
So, Mr. Palmer, under Administrator Loeffler, the SBA has made
revitalizing American manufacturing a top priority. So how will in-
creasing manufacturers’ access to SBIC investment help American
manufacturers?
Mr. PALMER. I think you have—first of all, thank you very
much for sponsoring the bill.
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And, yes, we have some SBIC investments in manufacturers in
Appleton. Quaker Bakery Brands and others do some really inter-
esting stuff, and you have some—Century Tool—companies in
Green Bay and other areas.
But the more we can amplify capital, not on our—we have a lot
of capital that is being raised from—let me take it back a step fur-
ther.
The private market sees the opportunity in small business; they
don’t always know how to access it. And one of the things about
the SBICs is they know how to access it, and they are leading with
that private capital. And, a lot of times, because of the limits of
where they are now, that capital can’t be amplified because it hits
the caps that SBA will do.
What your legislation would do is say, hey, if you invest in a
manufacturer, that cap doesn’t apply to that investment. You still
have to have the same amount of private capital, which is the tax-
payer protection, in front of the SBA capital, but we are not going
to put an artificial break on anything that is in a rural area or a
low-income area, whether that is a rural or urban low-income area,
and particularly for manufacturing and these national defense sec-
tors.
So it just lets the private capital lead without restraint. So I
think it would be very helpful. And thank you for your support.
Mr. WIED. And, Mr. Baumel, my district is several hours away
from large cities like Madison and Milwaukee. What can this Com-
mittee do to ensure small businesses have access to the capital
they need to grow and innovate?
Mr. BAUMEL. I mean, we have the same situation, you know,
in Ohio, where Athens is about an hour-and-a-half drive, Dayton
is about an hour drive. So I don’t know specifics other than, you
know, experienced fund managers who are willing to go out there
with SBIC and other type money and make that drive and such.
And most people that are in these communities, like in Wisconsin,
Ohio, do have that passion, you know, to follow up.
And the other thing I will say is, there are a lot of macro-
economic things that can be done as well. I know there is a new
Developing and Empowering Our Aspiring Leaders Act coming up,
as well, that will allow fund managers who have very limited
fees—the average, you know, early-stage fund is about $20 mil-
lion—about, you know, $200,000 to $400,000 annual fees to cover
every expense—all the employees, the rent and everything else.
You know, getting the regulatory burden down with filings with
the SEC; allowing these small businesses to, you know, expense
R&D more quickly; and those sorts of things.
So there are both macroeconomic and microeconomic solutions.
Mr. WIED. Great.
Thank you for all the work you do.
And, with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Simon from the great State of California for
5 minutes.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you, Chair Williams.
I appreciate you all being here today.
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And I would agree—before I go into my comments—I am very in-
terested, this quarter, in this Committee having an opportunity to
meet with and have a conversation in a hearing form with the lead-
ership of SBA. I think we would all learn so much, particularly to
understand, you know, what the next 4 years will look like under
the new SBA brass. I am very excited about that opportunity, and
I hope we get it.
You know, I am from the great State of California, from Oak-
land, California, surrounding Berkeley and Emeryville and Ala-
meda. And I have to tell you that California’s 12th District is the
hub. And, actually, I wanted to thank many of you all for your in-
vestments in my district. Particularly, you all know that the AI
revolution, the biotech revolution, it is happening right across the
street from my office. And I am proud to be in that district.
You know, there are a couple of amazing small businesses that
have benefited so deeply from the private sector, from venture, that
haven’t had the opportunity to seek support from SBA. Or even the
thought of obtaining NIH funding in this moment is also really,
really difficult for some of these companies. I want to talk about
a couple of them.
There is a group called Science Corp., which is in Alameda. And
Science Corp., which is a small business led by brilliant engineers
and physicians and data scientists—and we believe in the next 10
years this group will cure retinal pigmentosa and macular degen-
eration. The brilliant folks at Science Corp. are going day-in and
day-out, coming early and leaving late, to innovate to make sure
that folks like myself with visual impairments have hope.
There is another group that I visited that requires a ton of re-
search and support for what they are doing to ensure that mothers
actually live past a terminal diagnosis of breast cancer. Exelixis is
right in Alameda County.
Institutions like these have created opportunity, not only employ-
ment opportunities, but really deep hope for folks who are strug-
gling with ailments and disabilities.
Between 2020 and 2023, $5.8 billion was invested in Oakland en-
trepreneurs, and this is double what Oakland businesses received
in the 3 years before the pandemic. My district sees tremendous
venture capital investment, and so, again, I am so thankful.
But what about our underserved communities? I understand that
the administration doesn’t want to talk about inclusion, but I do.
In this conversation, you know, I think it is important that we con-
tinue to lift up a whole America.
According to Crunchbase, venture capital funding to Black-owned
businesses in the Bay Area fell 88 percent since 2001. Again, ven-
ture capital funding to Black-owned businesses in the Bay Area fell
88 percent since 2001.
In fact, less than 1 percent of venture capital funds go to Black
businesses nationwide. I will read that again: Less than 1 percent
of venture capital funds go to Black-led businesses nationwide.
You know, I have a question just quickly for Mr. Cimino.
According to the data published by Morgan Stanley, venture cap-
ital investors could be missing out on more than $4 trillion in value
by not investing in more underrepresented entrepreneurs. So the
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big question is, well, why? Why and how are we getting this so
wrong in our economy?
And wouldn’t you agree that focusing more on underserved com-
munities, like the ones that I have mentioned, and focusing and
supporting those entrepreneurs in small businesses could help in-
vestors increase their own returns?
Mr. CIMINO. Absolutely.
And I think that you said it very well. This isn’t about taking
things away from your district; it is about bolstering that. But it
is also about broadening it to more folks within your district but
also more places around the country.
One of the ways we see that opportunity is by making it easier
and empowering more fund managers, especially those with diverse
backgrounds. Because the data shows that a diverse fund manager
is up to 40 percent more likely to invest in a diverse founder. And
so, to your point, that is likely to get more capital into these com-
munities.
And, frankly, these are untapped talent, where they are going to
outperform, they are going to show that that value is not only for
them and their business but for the investors. And I think as you
start to see more and more of that data, you will start to see more
of the investment community look to resource those communities.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you.
We are leaving genius on the table.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia for 5
minutes.
Mr. JACK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for your
continued leadership in this space.
And thank you to our witnesses for testifying today.
Just to personalize this, my congressional district, based on some
data that our team pulled together, we have over 7,000 private-eq-
uity-backed companies who provide roughly 418,000 jobs within my
district, which represents about a $730 million investment within
my district alone.
So I am grateful for each and every one of your testimonies
today, because it impacts the people that I serve here in Congress.
But if I could start—and I also want to thank Mr. Palmer. I
think your testimony was incredibly insightful.
And I would love to walk through, if I could, and give you an op-
portunity—within those policy recommendations, you have spoken
to a couple of my colleagues today on it, but specifically I would
like to highlight the bill that Mr. Meuser and Ms. Scholten intro-
duced. Could you walk me through why SBIA so strongly supports
passage of this bill?
Mr. PALMER. Well, the program works. And that is number one.
If we are not actually getting the outcomes of helping small busi-
nesses, we want to stop it. It protects the taxpayer. We don’t want
the taxpayer exposed to anything. That is good.
There is more opportunity for more small businesses to get cap-
ital, for more businesses to innovate, and we are capped. Inflation
has chewed up the leverage caps that were put in place in about
2010, 2012, that time period. And so there is more private-market
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interest in small business, but it can’t be levered. And so it is sort
of capped and we are cutting ourselves off, even though we know
the model works.
Also, we know there are parts of America that have been forgot-
ten for a long time and have been overlooked, and they need to be
looked at. That covers manufacturing. That covers rural America.
That also covers, you know, inner-city low-income areas.
And so what it does is it uses a market-driven mechanism—not
government mandate, but opportunity—for private equity funds
and venture capital funds to look at those areas and then invest
in them and be able to access the SBIC leverage.
So it is a market-driven incentive to get more to all of America,
and, thus, the title of the bill. It just works. And so we are excited
about it.
Mr. JACK. And would you mind elaborating on—one of the third
policy recommendations you provided to the Committee was talking
about some of the fees collected as it relates to SBIC. Could you
walk me through or, rather, expound upon that?
Mr. PALMER. Sure.
So there are a number of fees that are collected by the SBA on
the SBICs, and some of those are effectively an insurance policy to
make sure that there is no taxpayer exposure. And that has
worked for 27 years. And that is good, and those should be main-
tained.
And the other thing they charge, they charge for licensing fees.
And that is so—when you apply for a license, you pay, I think,
$25,000 or so. And, you know, folks that are coming through the
process pay that fee. And then there are examination fees. But
some of those funds then get diverted to other parts of the SBA in-
stead of staying inside the SBIC program.
And the SBIC program is about $11 million in total salary for
$50 billion of management. I mean, normally, when you are man-
aging in the venture world, private equity world, it is 1-1/2 to 2
percent of the assets is what you charge for a fee to run it. The
government is being about 100 percent more effective and more ef-
ficient than that.
Now, that is good to a point, but you do need to make sure you
have the resources in hand to make sure that you have someone
overlooking the SBICs to make sure there are no bad actors, there
is no fraud.
And so we want to make sure that those fees stay inside the pro-
gram to make sure that we have the cops on the beat to make sure
we are serving those small businesses and protecting the taxpayers
simultaneously.
Mr. JACK. Thank you very much.
And, Mr. Cimino, you mentioned in your testimony that private
capital is highly concentrated in certain areas. You know, Cali-
fornia, the Northeast, I think, were the two regions you specifically
referenced. And while it is plentiful, it is, you know, clearly, at
times, unevenly distributed.
So I am just curious, recommendations that you have to this
Committee as to how we can attract more capital to, say, my home
district, Georgia’s Third Congressional District, just southwest of
Atlanta.
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Mr. CIMINO. Yeah. It is definitely the charge that we have be-
fore us.
One, I think what the SBA’s SBIC program is already doing is
working. When we look at the data, about 50 percent of venture
goes to California, but when you look at the SBIC’s allocation, only
10 percent goes to California. And so it is already broadening cap-
ital out there.
And especially enhancements that not only include the fund-of-
fund piece but accrual that fits the venture model better are help-
ful. And then investing in all of America, which you are obviously
expert on, will, I think, add to that.
I think even beyond this Committee, though, there are opportuni-
ties, as you think through tax, around how you drive capital and
talent to the ecosystem, things like qualified small-business stock,
but there are also some SEC-related regulations, all of which get
at, how do we support the investment community?
Because if you can support the investment community, they are
more likely to invest early, locally, and diversely. That then identi-
fies those entrepreneurs that can build companies, those companies
hire the talent, and it just starts turning that flywheel of an eco-
system and building out those infrastructures.
Mr. JACK. Very well put.
Thank you to all of our witnesses for their testimony.
And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from the great State of New
Hampshire for 5 minutes.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thanks to our witnesses for being here today.
Mr. Palmer, I wanted to—your—thank you for your testimony.
You point out that over—or, I guess, around 2,400—in the lifetime
of the SBIC program, SBI has—SBA has licensed—many acronyms
in this hearing ——
Mr. PALMER. It is a mouthful.
Ms. GOODLANDER.—has licensed 2,400 SBICs, Small Business
Investment Companies.
Mr. PALMER. Uh-huh.
Ms. GOODLANDER. New Hampshire is not home to an SBIC
currently.
Mr. PALMER. It has one. Seacoast Capital.
Ms. GOODLANDER. All right. We have one.
What is your advice to those of us who are representing mostly
rural districts? And what difference have you seen—what is the dif-
ference that is made by having more SBICs actually in our commu-
nity?
Mr. PALMER. It helps. I mean, proximity matters, and, you
know, if you are around people that are investing in businesses,
you are more likely to be able to connect them.
Because this is not, like, you know, the publicly traded markets,
where you go online and say, ‘‘I am going to go to my Schwab ac-
count, and I am going to find small business X and put money into
them.’’ It is a relationship business, and you have to understand,
you know, what you are getting into. So having more locally is very
helpful.
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And given the proximity to Boston, I would like to see more
funds formed in New Hampshire. And back in the 1990s, there
were several SBIC funds in New Hampshire and Vermont. When
they pivoted away from equity investing, it concentrated the ven-
ture world in only a couple markets, and it also—they sort of dis-
appeared from a lot of these smaller markets that were doing these
small-dollar venture funds and private equity checks. As the SBA
has pivoted back to allowing more equity investing, I think you are
going to see more of those develop.
I think the key is—and this goes to Congressman Jack’s point—
is, you have to make sure the barriers to entry aren’t, you know,
overly—aren’t too big for smaller funds to form. Because bigger
funds forming, they have the resources, they have the lawyers,
they have the compliance people. But you have to have smaller
funds that can get into and access these SBA products to be able
to serve these smaller businesses in these smaller markets.
And then they may not be small after a while. They may grow
and grow everything around them. So it is an ecosystem matter.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you for that.
You also mentioned in your testimony the SBIC Critical Tech-
nologies Initiative.
Mr. PALMER. Uh-huh.
Ms. GOODLANDER. I serve on the House Armed Services Com-
mittee. And, you know, being on both of these Committees is, I
think, really important, because as I look at the U.S. economy, I
see consolidation everywhere, especially when it comes to our de-
fense industrial base.
Mr. PALMER. Uh-huh.
Ms. GOODLANDER. What changes can be made and, especially,
what more could DOD be doing to leverage this program and to
really grow this incredibly important sector of our economy?
Mr. PALMER. I think they are on the right track. I mean, I
think the partnership between the SBA and DOD was the right
move. The creation of these critical technology SBICs and this
joint-licensure-type model they have, where the DOD doesn’t li-
cense them but they are involved in who gets the licenses to make
sure we have the right people in our national-security places, you
know, makes a lot of sense.
You know, I think establishing the ones that are forming now as
successes and sort of setting the market model that, hey, this
works, this isn’t—you know, because when things are new, they are
scary, and, you know, it requires training, and, ‘‘Hey, why am I
going to build a business around this new concept? Let me see if
the concept works.’’ We have got this concept started, anchored. I
think it is going to be a significant success. And as that success
takes off, I think we can get more of these critical technology funds
in more parts of the country, and I think it is a real opportunity.
So I think it is a—it is not a pilot. It is a real, established entity.
But I think, with a little bit of time, once those critical technology
SBICs really latch into the market, I think you are going to see a
lot more funds forming as them.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I would welcome any recommenda-
tions you have or other witnesses here today have for how we could
improve upon this program and get DOD’s involvement.
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Mr. BAUMEL. Okay. I have—going back to your original com-
ment, I am actually surprised there is only one SBIC in New
Hampshire. Because I remember I did, early on, a lot of investing
in Boston. I actually think I flew out of—flew Southwest back out
of New Hampshire.
So what we have done in Ohio——
Ms. GOODLANDER. Manchester-Boston Regional Airport.
Mr. BAUMEL. Exactly.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Excellent airport.
Mr. BAUMEL. Yeah, excellent airport.
I mean, one of the things we have done in Ohio is talked about
the quality of life versus other areas—and we have actually at-
tracted a lot of people from Boston—where, you know, it is a little
bit more simple, the house is a little bit more affordable, it is a lit-
tle different quality of life.
I think, you know, as a State, I think you can do that in terms
of attracting both venture capital professionals up there as well as
companies to form there, particularly if they could have some
SBICs around there. So I actually think your problem is very solv-
able.
Mr. CIMINO. And if I could just maybe add really quickly to
kind of combine a little bit of the two things that were added: One,
if you can grow more funds—and even on the Carta platform, there
are actually 11 or 12 funds in New Hampshire. You obviously have
the proximity to Boston. Hopefully the SBIC’s fund-of-fund struc-
ture can help.
But it is interesting, on the DOD point, to your point, people
don’t like to do unproven things. We have actually had funds come
to us and say, is this SBIC program itself, not even the DOD part,
for real? And these are pretty prominent funds.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Uh-huh.
Mr. CIMINO. I think the more education around this, the more
funds will be interested in realizing this is actually working, it is
an additive process for us. And all of a sudden, they will start
thinking about how to leverage it more. And so the more education
we can do about it, the better.
Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I thank you all.
And I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And I would like to thank our witnesses today for being here for
your testimony and for appearing before us.
Now, without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to sub-
mit additional materials and written questions for the witnesses to
the Chair, which will be forwarded to the witnesses.
I ask the witnesses to please respond promptly if that happens.
If there is no further business, without objection, the Committee
is adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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APPENDIX
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Æ
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File and source
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- Size
- 9,281,029 bytes
- SHA-256
- 4927aecde741c5fef8c27b789005d54ed002d6bfd35d109840db95e244b407e6
- Our copy
- CHRG-119hhrg59818.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov