Defending Main Street: Combating Ccp Threats to America's Small Businesses (House Small Business Committee hearing, March 25, 2026)
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Transcript of the House Committee on Small Business hearing Defending Main Street: Combating CCP Threats to America's Small Businesses, on March 25, 2026, published as Small Business Committee Document Number 119–033. Chairman Roger Williams and Ranking Member Nydia Velázquez gave opening statements. Witnesses were Andrew Pahutski of Systems Planning and Analysis Inc., Sean Murphy of Kompassion, Tom Lyons of 2430 Group, and Dr. Rush Doshi of Georgetown University and the Council on Foreign Relations. The appendix carries prepared statements and written questions from Representatives Velázquez, Goodlander and McGarvey with the witnesses' answers, including an attachment on the State Trade Expansion Program.
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“Defending Main Street: Combating Ccp Threats to America's Small Businesses (House Small Business Committee hearing, March 25, 2026).”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/defending-main-street-combating-ccp-threats-to-america-s-small-busines-ea90ee4379/
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DEFENDING MAIN STREET: COMBATING CCP
THREATS TO AMERICA’S SMALL BUSINESSES
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
HEARING HELD
MARCH 25, 2026
Small Business Committee Document Number 119–033
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
63–520 WASHINGTON : 2026
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
TONY WIED, Wisconsin
ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
BRIAN JACK, Georgia
KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
GIL CISNEROS, California
KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
GEORGE LATIMER, New York
DEREK TRAN, California
LATEEFAH SIMON, California
JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire
LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director
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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................ 1
Hon. Nydia Velázquez ............................................................................................. 2
WITNESSES
Mr. Andrew Pahutski, Vice President & Fellow Economic Security, Systems
Planning and Analysis Inc., Baltimore, MD ...................................................... 5
Mr. Sean Murphy, Founder, Kompassion, Former Founder, Bison Blockchain,
Cheyenne, WY ...................................................................................................... 6
Mr. Tom Lyons, Co-Founder, 2430 Group, Austin, TX ......................................... 8
Dr. Rush Doshi, Assistant Professor, Georgetown University, C.V. Starr Sen-
ior Fellow for Asia and Director, China Strategy Initiative, Council on
Foreign Relations, Washington, DC ................................................................... 10
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. Andrew Pahutski, Vice President & Fellow Economic Security, Sys-
tems Planning and Analysis Inc., Baltimore, MD ...................................... 30
Mr. Sean Murphy, Founder, Kompassion, Former Founder, Bison
Blockchain, Cheyenne, WY .......................................................................... 32
Mr. Tom Lyons, Co-Founder, 2430 Group, Austin, TX ................................. 42
Dr. Rush Doshi, Assistant Professor, Georgetown University, C.V. Starr
Senior Fellow for Asia and Director, China Strategy Initiative, Council
on Foreign Relations, Washington, DC ....................................................... 58
Questions and Answers for the Record:
Question from Hon. Velázquez to Mr. Sean Murphy and Answer from
Mr. Sean Murphy .......................................................................................... 62
Questions from Hon. Velázquez to Mr. Tom Lyons and Answers from
Mr. Tom Lyons .............................................................................................. 63
Questions from Hon. Goodlander to Mr. Tom Lyons and Answers from
Mr. Tom Lyons with attachment of the State Trade Expansion Program
(STEP) ............................................................................................................ 65
Questions from Hon. Velázquez to Dr. Rush Doshi and Answers from
Dr. Rush Doshi .............................................................................................. 72
Questions from Hon. McGarvey to Dr. Rush Doshi and Answers from
Dr. Rush Doshi .............................................................................................. 74
Questions from Hon. Latimer to Dr. Rush Doshi and Answers from Dr.
Rush Doshi .................................................................................................... 75
Questions from Hon. Tran to Dr. Rush Doshi and Answers from Dr.
Rush Doshi .................................................................................................... 75
Questions from Hon. Olszewski to Dr. Rush Doshi and Answers from
Dr. Rush Doshi .............................................................................................. 76
Questions from Hon. Goodlander to Dr. Rush Doshi and Answers from
Dr. Rush Doshi with attachments of the United States Patent and
Trademark Office (USPTO) and Stanford .................................................. 77
Additional Material for the Record:
Ozark Integrated Circuits Letter .................................................................... 124
SBC Minority Letter to SBA ........................................................................... 127
SBC Democratic Staff Report .......................................................................... 132
Asian Americans Advancing Justice (AAJC) Letter ...................................... 149
Representative Tran Letter ............................................................................. 169
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DEFENDING MAIN STREET: COMBATING CCP
THREATS TO AMERICA’S SMALL BUSINESSES
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25, 2026
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
man of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Alford,
Wied, Bresnahan, King-Hinds, Velázquez, McGarvey, Scholten,
Cisneros, Tran, Simon, and Goodlander.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. May I have your attention. Before
we get started, I want to recognize Representative Scholten from
the great State of Michigan to lead us in the pledge and the prayer.
Would you stand?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Dear God, thank you for the opportunity that
we have to serve this country, and to come together not as Repub-
licans or Democrats, but as servants of the people for the United
States of America. And help us to use the time today to uplift the
voices of small business owners, main street across this country.
May we listen with our ears and hearts wide open, come up with
solutions to better serve the small businesses across this country.
In the name we pray, Amen.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, in-
divisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Good morning to everyone, and I now call
the Committee on Small Business to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of
the Committee at any time.
I now recognize myself for my opening statement. And I want to
welcome everyone to today’s hearing entitled ‘‘Defending Main
Street: Combating the CCP Threats to America’s Small Busi-
nesses.’’
First, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today, and
for sharing their expertise on the important issue. I also thank my
colleagues for joining us as we examine the challenges facing
America’s businesses in an increasingly competitive and complex
global environment.
Small businesses are essential to the American economy. They
drive innovation, create jobs, and strengthen our communities.
From cutting-edge technologies, start-ups, to family-owned manu-
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facturers, small businesses play a vital role in driving America’s
economy and reinforcing our national security.
However, this vital engine of our economy is under threat. The
Chinese Communist Party has made it a priority to challenge the
United States economically and strategically. In doing so, the CCP
is exploiting every opportunity to target American innovation.
American entrepreneurs invest significant time, capital, and in-
genuity into developing new products and technologies. Yet, far too
often, these innovations are stolen, replicated overseas, and sold at
a lower cost, undermining the very business that created them.
CCP-linked investments in small businesses also raise serious
concerns. Many small businesses, particularly start-ups, rely on
outside capital to grow in scale. But, when the capital comes from
entities tied directly or indirectly to foreign adversaries, sensitive
technologies and proprietary information risk being exposed and
exploited. In some cases, these investments are structured in ways
that obscure their true origin, making it difficult for entrepreneurs
to identify their potential risk.
Additionally, supply chain dependence on China continues to
pose a serious threat, and for decades American businesses
outsource production to China due to low labor costs. But this is
efficient in the short term. It also creates significant risk, especially
for small businesses that lack the resources and shift production or
diversify suppliers. These challenges are not economic; they are
matters of national security.
Today’s hearing is an opportunity to better understand how these
threats impact small businesses and identify practical solutions.
We must ensure that American entrepreneurs have the tools they
need to protect their innovation, secure a trusted source of capital,
and build resilient supply chains. If we fail to act, we risk losing
not only our competitive edge but also the ingenuity and entrepre-
neurial spirit that define our nation.
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about their experi-
ences and recommendations for how Congress can support and pro-
tect America’s small businesses.
With that, I now yield to my friend and our distinguished Rank-
ing Member from New York, Ms. Velázquez, for her opening re-
marks.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to all the witnesses for being here with us this morn-
ing.
In March of 1942, just after our entry into the Second World
War, the U.S. Army, citing an executive order signed by President
Roosevelt and backed by a law passed by Congress, forced over
100,000 ethnically Japanese people on the West Coast, including
U.S. citizens, into what even President Roosevelt himself called
concentration camps. The Army was never required to prove that
the Americans in the camps posed any threat to national security.
In fact, no Japanese American was ever convicted of any act of sab-
otage during the war.
Their mere ethnicity was enough in the eyes of the federal gov-
ernment and the media to imply disloyalty to the country they
were born in, lived in, and worked in. Each family was given a
week to register with the government, liquidate their homes and
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businesses, gather what they could carry, and report to assembly
centers, often converted from outdoor racetracks and fairgrounds,
to wait to be sent to their assigned camp.
Once shipped to their camps, prisoners were made to sleep in
barracks and confined spaces with little privacy and quality of life
under the constant watch of snipers and armed guards.
By the end of the war, 125,000 people, half of whom were chil-
dren, had to stay in the camps. Eighty-four years have passed since
this deep injustice began.
In 1988, President Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988
apologizing for it and providing reparations to the victims of the
camps. I see alarming echoes of this injustice in our discourse sur-
rounding China, echoes that are manifesting in this hearing.
Let me be clear: The People’s Republic of China is America’s far
most strategic competitor. The practices it has employed to bolster
its state-controlled firms, corner markets, and undermine free com-
petition around the world are hurting America’s technological lead-
ership and small businesses.
The federal government must do what it can to address these
issues. That is why I proudly voted for the CHIPS and Science Act,
and Inflation Reduction Act, to set industrial policies strengthening
the entire ecosystem of resources, tax incentives, ancillary busi-
nesses, and workforce development surrounding the domestic man-
ufacturing of strategic technologies and critical components.
Furthermore, multiple programs exist at the SBA and elsewhere
in the federal government to bolster small businesses through cap-
ital access and technical assistance, which I have been pleased to
support and strengthen throughout my tenure in Congress.
That is also why I vehemently oppose the Trump administra-
tion’s action to undermine these far-sighted investments and sub-
stitute them with broad untargeted tariffs, mass deportation,
DOGE cuts, and racism against immigrants and minorities.
Not only are these actions morally bankrupt, but they are unnec-
essary and undermine our national security and economy. It is en-
tirely possible for the federal government to protect our national
security without stepping into a slippery slope that is ethnic
profiling. That means tackling complicated problems with new so-
lutions and examining policies based on their merits, not engaging
in inflammatory messaging and fear mongering against Americans
and other people of Chinese ancestry.
I sincerely hope that today’s conversation stays within those
bounds. With that, I thank the witnesses for being here, and I yield
back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And I will now introduce our witnesses. The first witness today
is Mr. Pahutski. Mr. Pahutski is the vice president and fellow of
Economic Security and Systems Planning and Analysis Inc. He is
a former Senior Eexecutive Member of the U.S. Department of De-
fense, with nearly three decades of experience in policy, acquisition,
intelligence, and operations.
Throughout his career, Mr. Pahutski has led major defense mod-
ernization initiatives and advised senior leaders on strengthening
supply chains and emerging technologies. Mr. Pahutski holds a
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bachelor’s degree in international economics from Salisbury Uni-
versity, home of the fighting Sea Gulls. Right?
Mr. PAHUTSKI. Right.
Chairman WILLIAMS. And has completed advanced technologies
at Defense Acquisition University, the Naval Postgraduate School,
and the U.S. Army War College. I appreciate having you here
today.
Our next witness is Mr. Sean Murphy. Mr. Murphy was founder
of the Bison Blockchain, a long-scale bitcoin mining company in
Cheyenne, Wyoming. Bison Blockchain faced a takeover attempt by
the CCP and ultimately secured a CFIUS divestment order. He is
also the founder of Kompassion.
Earlier in his career, he was a researcher and a speaker on
hemp, finance and healthcare policy, making appearances at the
White House, Congress, and major media outlets.
Mr. Murphy volunteers in the VA hospice care, is a palliative
care father to a child with a rare terminal disease, and is a U.S.
State Department professional fellow, and we will pray for your
family.
He earned a bachelor’s degree from the University of Notre
Dame. I don’t know what their mascot is.
Mr. MURPHY. Fighting Irish.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Oh, is it? Okay. I knew you’d know that.
Our next witness, Mr. Tom Lyons. Mr. Lyons is the co-founder
of 2430 Group, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization focused on
helping the U.S. private sector defend against foreign espionage.
He works with business leaders to protect intellectual property and
address threats from foreign adversaries. Previously he served for
15 years as national security executive in the U.S. federal govern-
ment, advancing U.S. interests in complex global environments.
Mr. Lyons holds a juris doctor from the Catholic University of
America, and a degree in international finance and German from
Auburn University, home of the Tigers.
And I now recognize the Ranking Member from New York, Ms.
Velázquez, to briefly introduce our last witness.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to
welcome Dr. Rush Doshi, who is an assistant professor at the
Georgetown University Walsh School of Foreign Service and the
C.V. Starr Senior Fellow for Asia and the Director of the China
Strategy Initiative at the Council on Foreign Relations.
Previously, Dr. Doshi served as the Deputy Senior Director for
China and Taiwan on the last administration’s National Security
Council. In that role, Dr. Doshi helped manage the NSC’s first
China directory, coordinated China and Taiwan policy, drafted
President Biden’s China strategy, and served as a top negotiator in
matters regarding the PRC, Taiwan, and the AUKUS Alliance.
Dr. Doshi holds a bachelor’s degree from Princeton and a Ph.D.
from Harvard. Welcome. Thank you for being here. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. We appreciate, again, all of
you being here today.
So, before recognizing the witnesses, I would like to remind them
that their oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. You
all have done that. We stick with that.
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If you see the light turn red in front of you, it means your 5 min-
utes have concluded, and you should wrap up your testimony. If
you’re still out there talking after 5 minutes, you’re going to hear
this; that means ‘‘shut it down.’’ Okay. All right.
So, with that in mind, I now recognize Mr. Pahutski for his 5-
minute opening remarks.
STATEMENTS OF ANDREW PAHUTSKI, VICE PRESIDENT & FEL-
LOW, ECONOMIC SECURITY, SYSTEMS PLANNING AND ANAL-
YSIS INC.; SEAN MURPHY, FOUNDER, KOMPASSION, AND
FORMER FOUNDER, BISON BLOCKCHAIN; TOM LYONS, CO-
FOUNDER, 2430 GROUP; AND RUSH DOSHI, ASSISTANT PRO-
FESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY, AND C.V. STARR SEN-
IOR FELLOW FOR ASIA AND DIRECTOR, CHINA STRATEGY
INITIATIVE, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS.
STATEMENT OF ANDREW PAHUTSKI
Mr. PAHUTSKI. Thank you, sir. The views expressed in this tes-
timony are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my em-
ployer.
Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members of the Committee,
thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the sophisticated
and evolving actions of the Chinese Communist Party, and the cas-
cading impact those actions are having on America’s small busi-
nesses, the industrial base, and the broader United States econ-
omy.
This hearing reflects an important recognition: Small businesses
are essential to the United States’ industrial capacity, innovation
base, and long-term strategic advantage. The bottom line is clear:
Protecting America’s small business is not simply an economic
issue; it is a national security imperative.
Every large business started small. Many firms that will shape
America’s future manufacturing base, technological advantages and
small businesses today often operate within fewer resources and
fewer protections. Protecting them means protecting America’s
long-term competitive advantage.
In today’s environment, economic security is national security.
The United States’ ability to innovate, produce, secure supply
chains, and scale trusted capacity is directly tied to our ability to
project power globally.
The defense industrial base is a useful point of reference, but the
line between it and the broader American industrial base continues
to shrink. Technologies converge through use applications often
manifest over time, and software and other less tangible tech-
nologies operate across multiple domains and environments simul-
taneously.
What appears purely commercial today may become critical to
national security tomorrow. For that reason, these should be un-
derstood as codependent parts of the same national industrial eco-
system. The challenge is that the Communist Party of China-linked
threats to small businesses rarely appear in only one form. They
can emerge through investments, supply chain exposures, intellec-
tual property theft, or commercial relationships that appear bene-
ficial at first but create long-term strategic vulnerabilities.
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For many businesses, the threat does not present itself as coer-
cion. It presents itself as an opportunity. Small businesses are
often among the most innovative actors in our economy. The exam-
ples are endless. But they are also among the least equipped to de-
tect, deter, and counter national State threats. Many operate with
limited capital, limited legal support, and little margin for error
when promising opportunities carry hidden risk.
When small businesses are compromised, the loss is not confined
to a single firm. The spillover effects can be seen in reduced inno-
vation, weakened resilience, and less trusted capacity for the whole
of the economy. The greater concern is not simply the loss of any
one single contract, company, or technology. It is the cumulative ef-
fect of allowing promising American firms to be weakened before
they can fully scale, compete, and contribute to the nation’s long-
term economic and national security growth. That is how strategic
erosion happens. That is how the CCP is doing it: quietly, incre-
mentally, and often before national security implications are fully
understood.
The policy goal in my view should be straightforward: trusted
growth, American advantage. That means helping small businesses
recognize risk earlier and making it easier for them to choose trust-
ed capital, trusted supply chains, and trusted partners.
The central question is not whether we will respond after an
American company has been compromised. It is whether we will
act early enough to help the next generation of American
innovators, manufacturers, and strategic suppliers grow on a trust-
ed, secure, and competitive path from the start.
I thank you for your time, and I look forward to your questions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now want to recognize Mr. Murphy for his 5-minute opening re-
marks.
STATEMENT OF SEAN MURPHY
Mr. MURPHY. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member, and dis-
tinguish Members of the House Small Business Committee. I am
a former executive at Bison Blockchain. I am here today as an en-
trepreneur and small business owner who survived a Chinese take-
over that literally wiped out everything we had built.
In 2022 and 2023, Bison Blockchain poured sweat and every last
dollar into building the largest bitcoin mine in Wyoming, near
Cheyenne, and just one mile from the Warren Air Force Base, and
our nation’s Minutemen III missiles. When our domestic capital fell
through, we took a last-minute lead investor who claimed to be
from Singapore, an international businessman.
After breaking ground, it became clear they were from Beijing
and Hong Kong, majority Chinese nationals backed by CCP-linked
capital, who also ran IP transfer companies. Just before bitcoin
mining began, they brought in personnel from China to replace us
as operators. We sued for breach of contract and interference, and
then they countersued us, a small local business, for $110 million.
It was unfair. It was hugely inflated, and it was lawfare. And effec-
tively they were mocking us and our judicial system.
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They hired six law firms, two in New York, one in Los Angeles,
and three locally in Cheyenne, and they exploited relationships be-
tween their Wyoming lawyers and Wyoming State legislators.
Then came the Presidential CFIUS divestment order, but they
saw it coming, and they sold the site to CleanSpark, a large U.S.
public company with hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts
with Bitmain, one of the Chinese defendants. Bitmain is now under
investigation in Operation Red Sunset by the Department of Home-
land Security.
This wasn’t competition. This was the Chinese mocking us and
working with CleanSpark to try to wipe out the small guys. The
local guys. The main street guys.
Their plan would have succeeded, but for the extraordinary work
of my father, Patrick Murphy, Bison’s attorney; my brother Mi-
chael, Bison’s co-founders; and two men who are here today, An-
drew Astuno, our CFIUS expert, and Cyrus Miryekta, a national
security consultant who helped us. I would also like to acknowledge
Beth Clay, who is not here. But all of these individuals really
helped me in this process with the Chinese.
They were going to run off with the money. Everyone. The sales
money. That was their plan, but we were able to secure landmark
writs of prejudgment attachment and garnishment where the Wyo-
ming Federal District Court took control of the sales money. And,
once they took control of the sales money, we were then able to ne-
gotiate a settlement. So effectively we got money out and beat the
Chinese.
Who am I in all of this? I am a palliative father. My son battles
a terminal illness, and I fight for his life every day.
For 16 years, I have been a VA hospice volunteer, sitting at the
bedside of dying warriors who have served this country, honoring
the premise that no veteran dies alone.
My advocacy for my son and veterans centers on palliative care
and access to cannabinoids, rescheduling marijuana from schedule
I to schedule III to unlock research and healing, especially for rare
diseases.
I am also an advocate against child trafficking, and I employ you
to stand against it at home and abroad.
These realities made me something the Chinese did not antici-
pate in the lawfare, a father who had faced bigger, scarier dragons
than them and their 16 lawyers. Being with my son and veterans,
I realized we are not chemical beings to be pumped full of pharma-
ceuticals. We are electrical beings that need to be filled with light.
Our bodies run on bioelectric fields, energy pathways, and nat-
ural frequencies. This is biology, that every cell has an electrical
charge; every muscle movement, every heartbeat is a result of an
electrical charge or discharge. The EKG and EEG medical tests are
measuring electrical impulses in the heart and brain.
As a palliative father, I tried everything else to help my son.
Only energetic medicine, including sound and light therapies
brought him relief when nothing else did. And this is the next wave
of healthcare, and the intellectual property behind it is pure gold.
As a Hospice volunteer, I have seen how rampant fraud and
abuse in healthcare devastate patients in small businesses, from
massive durable medical equipment overbilling in Florida, to ghost
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hospice facilities in California syphoning hundreds of millions, lit-
erally, from Medicare and Medicaid. These scams inflate taxes for
every family, erode trust in legitimate services, and risk bank-
rupting these programs. And our adversaries, like the CCP, can
and do exploit to weaken us economically from within.
Lawfare and IP theft are a direct threat to main street, and we
cannot allow any foreign country, especially the CCP, to do these
things against American entrepreneurs, parents and veterans.
I have included four recommendations in my written testimony,
and I urge your good consideration and action. Thank you for this
opportunity to testify and tell my story.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Lyons for his 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF TOM LYONS
Mr. LYONS. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velázquez,
Members of the Committee, thank you for this hearing. My name
is Tom Lyons. I am a former CIA officer, and a co-founder of 2430
Group, a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that educates and de-
fends U.S. innovation from nation-state economic espionage. I am
here because America’s small businesses are under attack, and
most of them do not know this.
We have long characterized the CCP as a strategic competitor,
but we need to ask ourselves whether their behavior is that of a
competitor or that of a nation at war. These are two different
things, and they prompt two different policy responses.
I would offer this, in the book ‘‘Unrestricted Warfare’’ from 1999,
two PLAs colonels wrote that the future of conflict would be waged
through economic subversion, technology theft, and the destruction
of a rival’s competitive advantage. The CCP recognizes that this
kind of nonkinetic gray zone warfare against our companies, our
research institutes, and our small businesses can be more effective
than a kinetic war. In their own words, this is war, and we should
take them at their word.
When it comes to measuring the damage from this war, the num-
bers we hear about are dangerously incomplete. It is often cited
from the IP commission that we lose between 225 and $600 billion
annually to economic espionage. Those numbers do not capture in-
cidents like Apple abandoning the autonomous vehicle industry, in
part, because of PRC espionage, or one Google engineer walking
out with the chip designs powering our AI systems.
It doesn’t capture the metrics of the hundreds of companies that
were never born because we lost the entire industry.
America pioneered the solar energy, lithium batteries, drone, and
wind turbine industries. China dominates all of these today.
We invented the World’s pharmaceutical innovations, but China
today controls the key starter materials in most of our drugs. Pro-
duction grinds to a halt if China restricts our supply chain.
The real costs are the entire sectors of the U.S. economy that no
longer exist. Stand back and look at the industries that China has
targeted and currently dominates: energy, communication, logistics,
medicine, advanced computing, steel. These are all foundational for
winning any conflict.
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And it is not limited to critical technology. The same pattern
plays out in agricultural, manufacturing, and consumer goods. If
Apple, a $3 trillion company, could not protect its AV program,
what chance does a small start-up have?
A third of our small businesses rely on free antivirus software.
Sixty percent shut down within months of a major cyber attack. We
have caught the big cases because those companies had cyber or
counterintelligence measures in place, but most companies, most
small companies do not. Small businesses make up 99 percent of
the U.S. firms, and they employ nearly half of the workforce. They
are the hub of American innovation, the engine of our economy,
and the foundation of our ability to project force in any conflict.
In China’s unified economy, one company steals technology; a
second will manufacture it; and a third will export it. Our legal
system treats each as acting alone, however. So we miss the oppor-
tunity to hold the system accountable.
As you know, American taxpayers have funded part of this effort
through small business innovation grants, or PPP loans, going to
PRC state-owned entities. We have subsidized our own long-term
decline because we haven’t had basic checks in place. American ex-
ecutives go to federal prison for price-fixing, insider trading, and
other anti-competitive behavior. Yet the PRC does this at a nation-
state scale.
What the PRC is doing goes beyond trade, diplomatic, or regu-
latory issues. They are exploiting our system, which was designed
for good-faith commercial actors. The playing field is simply un-
equal.
I want to be clear: This fight is against the Chinese Communist
Party; it is not against the Chinese people. Many Chinese nationals
come here to escape the system. They are victims of CCP coercion
themselves. Our response must be precise, targeting conduct, not
targeting ethnicity.
In my written testimony, we prepared specific legislative initia-
tives, the centerpiece being the Foreign Espionage Designation Act.
In this case, the President would designate specific entities as for-
eign economic espionage organizations. It would then be a federal
crime to knowingly accept compensation or material benefit from
such a designated organization. This targets the so-called talent
programs or the expert networks that incentivize theft across our
industry.
We also prepared the Malign Foreign Interest Disclosure Act, re-
quiring that any entity receiving material-state support from a
country of concern disclose that relationship publicly. American
businesses deserve transparency in whom they are doing business
with.
We do not ask American citizens to wage war against foreign na-
tion states. That is the government’s job. But that is exactly what
we are asking 33 million small businesses to do. If this is war, and
it seems like the PLA has said as much, then the government must
subsidize counterintelligence the same way we fund national de-
fense.
American industries face an existential threat from the CCP, and
our small businesses are on the front lines with limited defenses,
intelligence, and government support. The essential point is this:
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Main street should not have to fight this alone. It is not an equal
playing field. Thank you for the opportunity.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Dr. Doshi for his 5-minute opening remarks.
STATEMENT OF RUSH DOSHI
Mr. DOSHI. Thank you. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member
Velázquez, and distinguish Members of the community, I appre-
ciate the opportunity to testify today.
My argument is simple: Our small businesses are critical to
America’s future in manufacturing and technology, but, today,
China is mounting the most comprehensive industrial strategy any
power has ever attempted and is putting our small businesses at
existential risk. The urgent task for this Committee is to consider
how to help our small businesses meet this unprecedented chal-
lenge.
I want to divide my testimony into four questions. First, what
are China’s objectives? The Chinese Communist Party aims to
catch up and surpass the West. It believes there have been four in-
dustrial revolutions that determined the fate of nations. The first
was steam power, which brought British dominance. The second
was electrification, and the third was mass manufacturing, which
brought American dominance. And now we are in the fourth, quan-
tum, biotech, AI, and robotics, which China is determined to win,
not just for prosperity but for relative power. And Beijing sees
manufacturing as the key to winning this revolution.
That brings me to a second question: How is China doing in
manufacturing? China overtook the United States to become the
world’s dominate manufacturer in less than 25 years. Over that pe-
riod, our share of manufacturing fell by half, from 30 to 15 percent,
while China’s share quintupled, from 6 percent to 30 percent. It
now exceeds that of the next nine countries combined, and it isn’t
standing still.
China is spending roughly $400 billion a year on industrial pol-
icy. By contrast, the U.S. CHIPS and Science Act is $50 billion over
multiple years.
That leads to a third question: What is the role of small business
in this story? Large firms have dominated American manufacturing
for decades, but their supply chains are made up of smaller firms.
Today small business is the path to American reindustrialization.
Smaller businesses are the keepers of specialized manufacturing
knowledge; they are the producers of precision components, tooling,
and specialty materials.
Take aerospace and defense. Roughly 70 percent of Boeing’s
Dreamliner comes from its smaller suppliers. Roughly 60 percent
of all employment in that sector is small and mid-sized businesses.
And the story is similar in other sectors, too, like automotives.
Now, China sees the value of small and medium enterprises. Ten
years ago, when it launched its Made in China 2025 program to
catch up and surpass the West in key sectors, it saw small business
as part of the plan. So it launched the so-called Little Giants Pro-
gram to boost innovation, eliminate foreign suppliers, and create
global competitors in high technology.
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That program is a competitive program, but once firms get in,
once they get that Little Giants designation, they get access to an
incredible package of loans, subsidies, state equity investments, ex-
pedited patent processing, university research support, streamlined
stock market listings, and even offtake from SOEs and the govern-
ment.
To date, more than 17,000 Chinese firms have been designated
Little Giants. Ninety percent are in high-tech manufacturing, and
some have grown into global titans, like Unitree Robotics.
That is what our system is up against, which leads to a fourth
and final question: What do we do? The SBA has some powerful
tools. In fiscal year 2025, it guaranteed $45 billion in loans to more
than 85,000 small businesses, the most in its history. But the truth
is this is simply not enough to keep up with Beijing. I would like
to offer a few proposals.
First, China is going all-in on research support, but we have let
the programs that we use to support early stage research lapse.
Congress should immediately reauthorize the Small Business Inno-
vation Research, and the Small Business Technology Transfer pro-
grams.
Second, China packages its benefits together and ties them to a
certification program whereas we launch often uncoordinated indi-
vidual initiatives. We can change that. Congress can launch a cer-
tification program that provides a coordinated package, demand
side, supply side, and regulatory support for our high-tech small
company.
Third, China’s Little Giants raised about $125 billion in the last
few years from private sources, often with state support. Mean-
while, the first cohort of our SBIC critical tech program might raise
$4 billion. Congress should scale up that kind of program.
Fourth, Chinese manufacturers are able to access low-cost cap-
ital, including loans. To keep up, Congress should raise the number
of loans, the loan cap, and the total appropriation for U.S. SBA’s
new, manufacturing—Access to Revolving Credit Program.
And, fifth, China’s Little Giants can draw on universities, state
institutes, and SOEs for technical assistance. Our equivalent pro-
gram has lapsed. Congress should restore the Manufacturing Ex-
tension Partnership promptly.
These are just a few recommendations, but the common thread
through all of them is integration. The SBA has loans, equity vehi-
cles, R&D programs, and technical assistance programs. What it
lacks is a mechanism to deploy them together in a coordinated way.
China has built that kind of program, and it is working. This
Committee has the tools and jurisdiction to build the American
equivalent. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your
questions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
And we will now move to the Member questions under the 5-
minute rule. I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Murphy, as a small business owner, you were directly in-
volved in a dispute with a Chinese-controlled entity that ultimately
forced your company out of its own project. You mentioned that.
Can you walk us through how that situation unfolded, and what
warning signs, if any, you now recognize maybe in hindsight?
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Mr. MURPHY. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the
Committee. There were warning signs, but all of this was under a
prevailing need for expediency. We had secured through an RFP
process contracts to electrical power, and that is what you need to
mine bitcoin, is a lot of electrical power. And our lead investors fell
through. We had raised $3 million, but we needed a lot more to
build out the project. So we had this quick need to secure the cap-
ital to execute the project, and we ultimately, for lack of a better
term, got in bed financially with these Chinese partners.
So the first one was the diligence. We did not have time. And the
nature of the capital need was expedient, like we had to execute
on this or we would have lost the power contract. So there is the
due diligence piece that could have, should have been better, but
it wasn’t because things had to move quickly.
And then, second, as things devolved and that played itself out,
was the nature of the lawfare. And they were mobilized; they were
strategic; and they knew what they were doing in hiring all of
these lawyers and law firms at national and local levels to crush
us on the legal fees.
So it was really those two: It was the upfront things that could
have, should have been different, but it was so quick we couldn’t
do it differently. And then, as things played out, there was nowhere
to go as a small business when the lawfare was happening. There
wasn’t a congressional—there was no federal mechanism, or we
weren’t aware of it. We were just the small business left to duke
it out. And I don’t know how that would be solved. There is some
possibilities, but that was the difficult spot once it came to that,
Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Mr. Pahutski, capital is the life blood of small business. We all
know that. And many rely on alternative investments to scale but
may not have the resources to fully vet investors. So my question
to you would be, how can we help small businesses identify and
avoid the investments from entities with ties to foreign adversaries,
particularly those connected to the CCP?
Mr. PAHUTSKI. Thank you, Chairman, for the question. And
your question is spot on to a plan that I have devised with the ac-
ronym TRUST, meaning Trusted Resilient U.S. Tracks, and it is
underpinned by 10 different items that are very simple and effec-
tive and in place today: Launch small business-led trusted capital
programs at each department and agency, embedded already in
that fabric that exists. Streamline due diligence support with
grants and affordable tools for small businesses. Incentivize supply
chain diversification through tax credits and subsidies. Establish
vetted suppliers that highlight secure-approved partners. Foster
public-private partnerships to mentor small businesses into con-
tracting vehicles. Align with Section 1260H that Congress passed
years ago that provides clear supply chain risk guidance. Empower
small businesses with advocacy and pathways for market access.
Build trusted and transparency tools to map supply chains and risk
identifications early. Coordinate with small business administra-
tion offices to ensure national security while fostering innovation.
And launch educational initiatives for small businesses so they
know how to navigate these programs.
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It is not complicated. Everything that I have identified there, as
kind of mentioned in others’ comments, are pieces across this
chessboard that we haven’t tied together. Implementing them are
easy. We have to move from policy to action, and that is what is
slowing us down.
United States is known for innovating, and China is known for
duplicating. We have to cease that. We have to get ahead of their
actions.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. Mr. Lyons, in closing here, as
you know, main street is increasingly vulnerable to Chinese Com-
munist Party efforts to target America’s small businesses and steal
intellectual property. So my question would be, based on your expe-
rience, what was the most common method used to obtain intellec-
tual property from America’s small businesses?
Mr. LYONS. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the question. It is a
great question that should be studied further. In my experience,
the cyber attacks are the most prevalent. The second I would say
is insider threats. And it is leveraging programs, such as Thousand
Talents, and following that, it is engagement through venture
firms. And even the process of doing due diligence from a venture
firm when they are learning about a start-up is a syphon of intel-
lectual property theft. So small businesses today are—it is multi-
vector. It comes through coercion at times on insiders as well.
Under the 2017 Chinese Intelligence Law, PRC nationals have to
cooperate when they are asked to. So that threatens American
workers who happen to be PRC nationals.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Thank you very much. And I now
recognize, my time is up. I now recognize the Ranking Member for
5 minutes of questions.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Doshi, how do
differences in the U.S. and PRC’s political economies affect our bi-
lateral tech competition?
Mr. DOSHI. Thank you very much for the question. China is a
nonmarket economy. It has enormous amounts of state support and
coordination to support small companies and big companies alike.
And that means that oftentimes their companies can stay solvent
longer. They are not targeting profit. They are targeting market
share. There are companies which either need to get loans or are
disciplined by our capital markets. So they can just stay in the
game longer and throw more money at the problem than we can,
and they have the government as their ally and the competition
without companies.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. It is no secret that the PRC dominates the
supply chain for important items like pharmaceutical precursors,
which we saw on full display during the COVID pandemic. Why is
it in our national interest to ensure manufacturing for strategic
tech and their parts?
Mr. DOSHI. Thank you for the question. We did see that China
weaponized its unique role over the rare minerals and magnets
supply chain. The total amount in value of the rare minerals we
import is less than the price of an F-35, and yet it supports more
than 20 percent of American economic activity.
If you take pharmaceuticals, 90 percent are fermentation-based
API; that is, antibiotics are made in China. If we don’t bring some
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of that back or have it come from our allies and partners, China
has a chokehold over our healthcare system.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. How does President Trump’s tariff wars affect
small business’ ability to ensure and compete with the PRC com-
petitors?
Mr. DOSHI. On the one hand, the tariffs can create some protec-
tion from the PRC. But, on the other hand, they also raise the im-
port costs for many companies that require importation of all kinds
of imports for manufacturing. And, as a direct result, they may be
less competitive globally, and we are seeing a lot of strain amongst
small and medium manufacturers as a direct result of higher costs.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Our biggest strength is our ability to draw
and keep the best minds in the world. This helps us drain the
PRC’s expertise and use it for our interests.
Last year Committee staff released a report finding that Presi-
dent Trump’s mass deportation campaign is hurting this strength.
Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to put the report in the
record.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. How does the Trump crackdown harm our
tech leadership?
Mr. DOSHI. I think there is a risk that some of the immigration
crackdown will reduce the flow of high-scaled entrepreneurs from
abroad into the United States. And a lot of our most innovative
companies are a mixture of American homegrown talent and also
foreign talent. We are only 300 million people. China is 1.4 billion.
Our superpower is the ability to attract the very best from around
the world and have them enhance our tech ecosystem.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you. The SBA, Dr. Doshi, just made
sweeping lending policy changes barring small businesses from
SBA loans if they have any foreign industry stakes. The notice
names PRC nationals without justification, bringing constitutional
concerns under the 14th Amendment.
Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to put in the record my
letter to the SBA detailing these concerns.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Do these unnecessary restrictions constrain
capital access for American entrepreneurs?
Mr. DOSHI. I think a lot of foreign nationals from a variety of
countries can do a lot of good in the United States. Ph.D. students
from abroad, from India or China or Japan, when they are here,
they can launch innovative companies. We shouldn’t deny them
capital just because they are foreign citizens.
And, as for the China question, there are real concerns about se-
curity and espionage. We also have to implement this policy in a
way that doesn’t undercut our innovation advantages.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Does it hurt small manufacturers’ ability to
onshore?
Mr. DOSHI. I think it does because that foreign talent will often,
especially Trump himself said, actually help us reindustrialize the
country, for example, in areas like batteries.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Does it incentivize them to seek more risky
foreign capital?
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Mr. DOSHI. I think that is an important point. If you can’t ac-
cess capital from the SBA, you may end up trying to get capital
from less trustworthy foreign sources, including China.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Lyons, the prime way to monitor fraud
and address suspicious and fraudulent activity in our federal re-
search programs is through their built-in watchdogs, the offices of
inspector general. Should they be fully funded so that they can be
at their greatest strength? In some cases, some of the agencies do
not have yet an OIG.
Mr. LYONS. Ranking Member, thank you for the question. I see
I am out of time. However, I think that any initiative that provides
more of a capability to allow us to do research and background on
individuals, programs, companies to determine and detect their
connectivity to the PRC is a program I would support.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of Pennsylvania
for 5 minutes.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Chairman.
Thank you all. Very compelling testimony. Just to start out, let’s
face it, the advantage that was provided over a 20-year period to
China’s products being shipped into the U.S. versus where we are
today, very much thanks to the courage of President Trump to
rethink tariffs and focus on fair trade—not just free trade—has
more advantages and benefits than negatives.
That being said, there is some real serious conversation taking
place here. I am not new to it. I have got a relatively extensive
business background on the international front as well. But what
I am interested in hearing from you all is, what can Congress do?
Many of you have outlined this in your testimony, I mean, in real
terms, advice on recognizing the risk beforehand so we can hope-
fully share that with—in our promotion, communications. And,
once you are under attack or being injured or harmed, who are you
going to? Who in our federal government, state government? Is it
FinCEN? Who is helping you? The DOJ, the SBA, the FBI? I mean,
you know, you are really under significant assault, Mr. Murphy,
with your business, and others.
So, Mr. Pahutski, let me just start with you, and you were out-
lining, and we really want to get those 10 items that you had, as
well as the 4 that you included in your testimony, but what can
Congress do, and perhaps advice on recognizing, if you would?
Mr. PAHUTSKI. So I think it starts with accountability. Right.
The executive branch has the authorities to execute the intent and
everything that has been discussed here. But shifting away from
offices that concentrate on small businesses, policymakers and
shifting that to action doers. Right. When instances occur like Mr.
Murphy’s, they need advocacy at the point of the problem. And that
is a long problem expanse. Right. Far left is, ‘‘Hey, where can I find
trusted capital?’’ Right. If you are working with the DOD, or the
DOE, potentially, in his instance, that would have an advocacy
role; they should have a list of trusted providers, of capital pro-
viders that he could have access to so he doesn’t have to guess and
blindly navigate that course.
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That was a policy and an instrument that had started in the
DOD that I was familiar with about 8 years ago and has slowed.
Right. That is something that needs to pick up pace. And it is not
so during the current administration. It slowed over time because
of you all’s priority and focus to other things. But having trusted
capital programs do an amazing job to avoid what he did.
The other part I would advocate for is understanding the supply
chains. Right. If you are not being bartered and traded through
trusted capital to undermine your company, it is through the sup-
ply chains that make you less attractive to the DOD or other insti-
tutions that you work with. Right. So eliminating those supply
chains—not just identifying the bad ones but providing a list of
trusts vendors and sources is also a critical step in this.
Mr. MEUSER. That is great. I have limited time. Mr. Murphy,
what would say, what sort of help would you like to have had from
the federal government, and what else could Congress do.
Mr. MURPHY. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to you Rep-
resentative. The big thing from the onset was we didn’t know—we
didn’t even think about the SBA as an option for capital. Never—
why would we get a loan? So having hybrid and equity options that
are meaningful. So, for a business like ours, we needed 10- to $15
million to secure the project. We had already raised millions, but
we needed more. So it is that hybrid and equity option at larger
amounts, and that was what really led to my recommendation
thinking we are doing this in critical technology really primarily
defense right now—I think it is the SBIC critical technology initia-
tive. There is a good amount of capital there, but there is nothing
in healthcare. Right. There is nothing in these parallel industries
that helps us access that.
And, then, the other piece with the lawfare, I have a few notes
here, things like debarment or sanctions, but tricky in the middle
of the litigation, or fast tracking relief in some way to DOJ or Com-
merce Or the Trade Representative. But, once it got to the point
of the lawfare, it was hard for Congress, or this body, to really help
us. We were in the judiciary.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you. Mr. Lyons, somewhat of the same
question, if you could respond relatively quickly. And, by the way,
Mr. Doshi, your testimony was outstanding. All your testimonies,
I want to make sure I get it to the right people at the SBA; your
information is really critical to our economy. But, go ahead, Mr.
Lyons. Five seconds.
Mr. LYONS. I would commend Congress for recently passing
SBIR reauthorization, which includes due diligence standards in
there. That is an immediate thing. SBA should have funding to
provide threat briefings to small businesses. The biggest problem
today is that most companies are simply unaware of this issue.
Also, states like California prevent due diligence from occurring
without providing that diligence to the subjects of the diligence.
Mr. MEUSER. My time has run out. I yield back. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from the great State of Kentucky
for 5 minutes.
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Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
having this really important hearing today and to our witnesses for
joining us.
I am going to start with you, Mr. Pahutski. Your business has
been active in SBIR, STTR since 1988. And not just active, but, I
mean, received tons of awards. I think something like 30 awards
or more through the program. And just how have you seen this
vital program support small businesses and promote American in-
novation?
Mr. PAHUTSKI. I want to be careful on my testimony because
I am not representing my company, nor the awards that they have
received through fair competition. But Systems Planning Analysis
broadly is considered an expert in the industry understanding ex-
actly where threat vectors are coming from, and how to provide
that strategic counsel and advice back to the government to avoid
things—left of launch, if you would, that Mr. Murphy and other
Americans have experienced.
Mr. MCGARVEY. No. I appreciate that. And this is an example,
sometimes, you know, if you are watching this place from afar, you
think the fights are between Democrats and Republicans often-
times, and sometimes, in this place, fights come between the House
and the Senate. And this is an example of where the House, all of
our colleagues here, took this incredibly program, SBIR, STTR,
passed it, and then it was, not just the Senate Republicans—really,
it was one Republican Senator with a bone to pick that held this
entire process up. And now it has effectively been shuddered for 6
months.
So they finally came to their senses over there on the other side
of the Capitol and reopened the program, but, of course, now that
we passed the bill out of both Chambers, the President has said he
is not going to sign any more legislation until the SAVE Act is
passed. So this important work remains on hold.
And I just—this is important work because, as we have this con-
versation, this really, really important conversation—Mr. Lyons, I
appreciate a lot of what you had to say about the threat that the
PRC and the CCP is posing to Americans, to America, and, in par-
ticular, American business interests—we need to have programs
like this funded that are helping our own small businesses con-
tinue to have an advantage, continue to grow, continue to invest
in products and people across the United States. So we need the
President to sign this. We need our small businesses to get help.
We all need to work on this.
And I just want to end on a little point, Dr. Doshi, is it easier
to address how China is harming our small businesses from IP
theft, from coercion, from manipulation, if we go it alone, or if we
go at it with our allies?
Mr. DOSHI. Well, thank you, sir. It is a great question. And
what I want to say is that, right now, China outscales us in many
dimensions. They are twice our manufacturing capacity, 3 times
our power generation, 11 times our steel production, 20 times our
cement production, but if we take the U.S. and put our allies and
partners together, we outscale China. Any time we want to make
progress, we are stronger if we do it with our friends, and the Chi-
nese simply cannot match the scale that we have together.
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Mr. MCGARVEY. And that is why I think this hearing is so im-
portant. That is why it is so important in this Committee where
we still do come together and do good work. We have some real
threats we have to deal with. We are not going to be as successful
if we continue to fight ourselves and fight our allies when we
should be taking on a common enemy. So I appreciate you guys
bringing that point up.
And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I recognize Mr. Wied from the great State of Wisconsin for 5
minutes.
Mr. WIED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
The Chinese Communist Party is no longer an emerging threat
to our national security. They have a calculated and well-developed
plan to infiltrate our educational institutions, internet data, mili-
tary installations, and our nation’s economy. Many of these threats
are more overt than others, but the CCP infiltration of American
small business is a problem that is not always discussed.
The threat from the CCP to small businesses ranges from intel-
lectual property theft to CCP-linked investments. However, small
businesses often lack the resources to protect their company and
the products they have poured their time into. I look forward to
discussing these issues with all of you here today.
Mr. Pahutski, what are the current gaps that small businesses
face when seeking capital that allows CCP-linked investors to ac-
cess this sensitive information?
Mr. PAHUTSKI. I don’t know if it is a lack of access to capital,
but it is a lack of awareness once they have access to it, and that
really means the speed of relevance.
In Mr. Murphy’s case, I would dare say that he was under a time
pressure to make something happen because the deal would close
in a certain period of time. Not having the ability to do due dili-
gence, one, because of the cost, the other because of the education,
‘‘do I really need to do that,’’ and those two worlds intersect at the
point of decisionmaking. And that is not months and weeks. That
is hours and days at the most. Right. And so we are left to cross
the spectrum of seeing these types of instances because we don’t
have the advocacy within the government that is a clear path to
solutions for these small businesses. We need to do better.
Mr. WIED. Well, this would be for, Mr. Murphy, how about, what
are some ways that small businesses in your—from your experi-
ence, having gone through this, that can protect themselves from
CCP-linked investors.
Mr. MURPHY. Mr. Chairman, and to you, Representative, we
talked about expediency. Right. So access to capital. These are—we
have talked about these, but access to capital; and then the nature
of that capital—equity, hybrid versus just debt only; and then the
amount of that; and the ability to have due diligence as a part of
that. But working with funds and particularly funds that are lever-
aged with the SBA program that are trusted, that are safe. Many
of these venture capital funds in Silicon Valley, they are not; they
are not. They are gathering IP. They have relationships with attor-
neys and many of the law firms. I am using Silicon Valley as an
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example because that is one that everybody is aware of. But that
is the nature of it. So it is having what I would call safe, protected,
trusted funds, and resources that are part of the diligence and to
also have leverage to help entrepreneurs and businesses move
quickly.
Mr. WIED. So how do we do that? How do we help you? And I
am going to just basically open this up to anybody: How can we
help you in that regard here in Congress.
Mr. MURPHY. I would say briefly improving, updating, upgrad-
ing the SBA program. I learned here from Mr. Pahutski that there
are actual offices—like there is a Department of Energy SBA office.
I didn’t know that. That would have helped to know. But working
and moving capital and options to apply for that into the agencies
to help it move quicker.
Mr. WIED. Mr. Lyons.
Mr. LYONS. Thank you, sir. I do think awareness is a big part
of this. I also think that State laws create a discrepancy in being
able to actually conduct things like due diligence. And I brought up
briefly the California statute, not to pick on California. It is just
that we come across a lot of companies based in California, and the
statutes are currently favored towards privacy versus background
research on people. And, when you are running a critical tech-
nology like AI or quantum, where it makes a—it is a zero-sum
game—we need to be able to facilitate those checks. So I think fed-
eral preemption on that issue, but also federal tax credits to allow
companies and small businesses to do this would be important.
Mr. WIED. Mr. Doshi?
Mr. DOSHI. Thank you, Congressman. I will just offer two quick
points.
First, we have to protect ourselves, which means that I think we
need to strengthen due diligence. That, in turn, means that we ba-
sically should think about Corporate Transparency Act, beneficial
ownership, because knowing who ultimately owns some of these
companies that are investing in the U.S. is critical, and that is the
hard part of due diligence. We can fix that. And it also, by the way,
will help combat fentanyl and money laundering.
The second thing we should do is promote, and that is access to
more capital from the SBA for our high-tech companies.
Promote and protect, together, are the way we do this.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. WIED. All right.
Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Simon from the great State of California for
5 minutes.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you.
And thank you all. Today has actually been extremely inform-
ative.
I have a question for Dr. Doshi.
So, last week, the House sent the bipartisan Small Business In-
novation and Economic Security Act—and the act, as you know, it
reauthorizes the Small Business Innovation Research and Small
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Business Technology Transfer programs—to the President’s desk
for signature.
I am curious, what is the significance of these programs on tech
leadership—our tech leadership?
Mr. DOSHI. Thank you, Congresswoman.
The SBIR program, as I recall, has done over $70 billion in loans
over the last 40 years almost, including many iconic American com-
panies that have benefited.
Right now, the Chinese are putting billions and billions and bil-
lions into their small companies. The fact that we have had a 6-
month lag—and hopefully that will be cleared up very soon—puts
us at a significant competitive disadvantage when it comes to small
business relative to China.
Ms. SIMON. Puts us at a disadvantage?
Mr. DOSHI. Yes, ma’am, a competitive disadvantage.
Ms. SIMON. Can you say more?
Mr. DOSHI. Absolutely. I mean, right now, the Chinese small
companies, the so-called ‘‘Little Giants’’ companies, are able to
being access tens, if not more, billions, of dollars in low-cost capital.
The fact that our program is paused means that every small com-
pany in China that wants to win in manufacturing has yet another
advantage now over us, which is access to cheaper funding.
Ms. SIMON. And just so the public understands, they are—these
small Chinese companies are able to access this capital from the
Party, from the——
Mr. DOSHI. So they are able to get it from——
Ms. SIMON. Where are they getting it from?
Mr. DOSHI. Yes, ma’am. From the state and, as well, from the
private sector, with the state backing it.
And so, right now, we are pushing ‘‘pause’’ and the Chinese are
pushing ‘‘go’’ through multiple funding channels.
Ms. SIMON. So, should this act be signed by the President, we
have no idea what that implementation would look like. So what
are tech companies and leaders and innovators doing in the whim
while they wait?
Mr. DOSHI. Well, for small companies, access to capital is a
challenge, especially now with so much capital going to the data-
center build-out. That is crowding out capital for smaller compa-
nies.
Ms. SIMON. Right.
Mr. DOSHI. So, as we hear, they have to take capital from less
trustworthy sources; they have to take it on less preferential terms.
They may have to give up more equity, take more dilution. That
is not great.
And one of the great things about the SBA program is, it doesn’t
do any of that. It is not diluted, for example.
So we should get that program restored. Otherwise, companies
may make poor choices with the long-term competitiveness.
Ms. SIMON. Now, in lieu of—who knows what that calendar will
be and when the act will be signed by the President. We hope it
will be. Any advice to this Committee on how to push the conversa-
tion forward?
Mr. DOSHI. Well, I think hearings like this one are useful, be-
cause I do hear some bipartisan support for the idea that our small
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companies need low-cost, non-dilutive capital to lead in high tech.
That is a view I think most Americans would support.
And I think, at the same time, when you understand the full
scope of what China is up—what they are up to—and that is why
I focused on that in my testimony——
Ms. SIMON. Right.
Mr. DOSHI.—what they are doing—it makes all this look a lot
more urgent. It is a lot harder to say let’s push ‘‘pause’’ when you
see tens of billions of dollars flowing to small companies in China.
They are very serious about promoting these small companies.
And let me be very clear: Their goal is to ultimately knock our com-
panies out of business. They don’t want them to be selling into
China or selling around the world. They would like their companies
to win.
And so it really is an existential question. We have got a lot of
small companies in manufacturing. We are the backbone of Amer-
ican manufacturing. A lot of them are run by people who are about
to retire. If those companies go out, we lose not just the companies
but the knowledge that those companies held onto for decades. It
will be much harder for America to reindustrialize, which is the
President’s priority, if we lose those companies.
Ms. SIMON. So it never happens to me, but I have a whole 1
minute and 39 seconds left. And I know a lot of my colleagues are
in other hearings. This hearing, as our Chair mentioned, is literally
on top of a number of other hearings on the floor today.
So, if you could, Dr. Doshi, for the next, you know, 35 seconds—
and then I will yield my time back to the Ranking Member—I
would love—you know, I know other Members had other questions
for you. So, sir, are there other thoughts that you would like to ex-
tend to the Committee?
Mr. DOSHI. Yes, ma’am. I think the last thing I will say is that
one of the things that China has done very well is, it has packaged
a lot of these benefits together—supply-side benefits, demand-side
benefits, regulatory benefits.
Ms. SIMON. Uh-huh.
Mr. DOSHI. It makes it much easier for companies to have a
one-stop shop.
The Taiwan Economic Ministry does the same thing, by the way.
So a lot of our competitors, a lot of our allies, have programs that
are very integrated. Presenting a package of goods, a package of
benefits, to these companies—it is not all about spending money—
can make their lives easier and can make it so that they are more
competitive. That is how the Chinese do it. It is, again, how our
allies do it. It is how we can do it too.
And I think we should think about the SBA having a
credentialing program for high-technology companies so we can bet-
ter incentivize the flow of capital. And think about this: A company
that gets that designation, as in China, will be a much safer bet
for the private capital markets too. I think we can do that.
Ms. SIMON. Thank you, sir.
I appreciate all of you.
I will yield my time, my whole 30 seconds, back to the Ranking
Member.
Mr. DOSHI. Thank you, ma’am.
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Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlewoman yields back.
The Ranking Member has nothing.
I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the Northern Mariana Is-
lands for 5 minutes.
Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to all of the witnesses for your testimony today.
So, as the Chairman has stated, I represent the CNMI, which lit-
erally sits on the front line of a lot of these strategic geopolitical
conversations. And, you know, for those who are not familiar with
where the CNMI is, we are closer to China than we are the United
States.
And so, you know, my community is struggling economically. I
am concerned about any type of foreign investment coming into the
CNMI. As a matter of fact, we have been having conversations with
the legislature as to how do we provide the necessary support to
the local government and connect them with an entity like CFIUS,
for example, right? Because, you know, we ardently object to ma-
lign CCP influence, right?
And I am really glad, Mr. Lyons, that you distinguished between,
you know, regular folks and the regime, right? So I appreciated
that comment.
And I kind of—in reading your testimony, Mr. Murphy, you
know, I was sad for you. And I don’t want something that has hap-
pened to you to happen to any small businesses, especially folks
out in a remote region where, you know, the government doesn’t
have the resources and just folks don’t have the resources, right?
And I kept hearing a common theme amongst all of you, and that
is due diligence.
And as I was preparing for this hearing, I saw that there is no
connection between the SBA, who, you know, is in charge of lend-
ing capital, with CFIUS under the Department of Treasury. And so
I kind of wanted to further flesh out, you know, that piece that you
focused on with regards to due diligence so that we prevent what
happened to Mr. Murphy.
And I will just open it up.
Mr. PAHUTSKI. Maybe I could take that. I used to be the DOD’s
lead representative for CFIUS, so I am very familiar with the au-
thorities that are granted to that.
That is not, I would say, the appropriate tool. At that part of
spectrum, CFIUS is typically reactionary, to some degree, because
those transactions are being bought. The problem is well left of
that. It is when we talked about when small businesses are faced
with capital decisions, partner relationships, equity decisions. That
is really at the point of no return, where the decision-making needs
to happen.
CFIUS is a great measure to protect things through the national-
security lens, but maybe his transaction didn’t present a national-
security threat, and therefore it might necessarily be reviewed
through those authorities.
Ms. KING-HINDS. So I ask that question because any invest-
ment right now in the CNMI is viewed as a national-security
threat if it is a foreign investment. And I want to be able to help
my community, given the fact that we are just going through an
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economic decline. As a matter of fact, I think it is in economic free-
fall at this point.
And so I think you are absolutely right that CFIUS is reactive.
How do we change it so that we ensure that what happened to Mr.
Murphy doesn’t happen? Because CFIUS is the arm of the federal
government that is supposed to review foreign investments for na-
tional-security risks. And so how do we bridge that gap?
And I see Mr. Lyons there nodding his head.
Mr. LYONS. Thank you, Congresswoman.
I think that it is a complex problem, but one thing to address
first is that there is nothing illegal about PRC investment into
companies. And so that means that our law enforcement mecha-
nisms have no tools here.
It does require—it does require background checks, due diligence,
and I don’t think it is always appropriate for the government to be
involved in that, because the government simply doesn’t collect on
these issues. As a former intelligence officer, we focus on bigger
things, I would say—on weapons systems, plans, and intentions.
We don’t focus on mergers and acquisitions or, really, much in the
economic realm.
So, for that reason, there has to be partnerships on that front.
I think SBA pushing out threat briefs could help. I think tax incen-
tives—I think tax credits—to allow companies to take advantage of
that, from a tax standpoint, so that they can build a CI program
or a cyber program. There is a limited amount of funding available
from the SBA today that goes towards funding cyber programs, and
we need to expand programs like that.
Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you.
Mr. Doshi, you can chime in for the rest of the time I have.
Mr. DOSHI. Thank you, Congresswoman. Let me just offer one
additional point, because I agree with what everyone else has said.
I think there is some value in helping small companies recognize
that, if they take investment from Chinese sources and that they
are in their cap table, it might make it a lot harder for them to
get access to certain government benefits, from the [inaudible] to
Department of War, et cetera. And I think getting people to under-
stand that there is a risk, not just a legal risk but a reputational
risk potentially, in having these investors is critical.
And I will end with this. We need corporate transparency. We
need to know the beneficial ownership of some of these vehicles. If
we know that, we can do better due diligence in the open-source.
Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of Michigan
for 5 minutes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Ranking Member.
And thank you so much to our witnesses for being here today.
It seems like our questions this morning have kind of been going
back and forth and questioning, to a certain extent, whether China
actually is a problem or trying to point out how it is.
I think we all agree, China is a problem, right?
You agree?
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You agree?
Yes. All heads are nodding.
The question is, what are we going to do about it?
Dr. Doshi, in your questions, you talk about the rapid pace at
which China is investing in its small businesses. At the same time,
we have seen major scaling back of our small-business programs.
Can we continue at the same pace and expect different results?
To our entire panel, I mean, yes or no, can we continue—no, we
cannot. No. No. We cannot.
I think that this is the central question, you know. And the over-
sight of this Committee is—if we take nothing more away, if we are
all in agreement that China is a threat, we cannot continue at the
same pace of scaling back our programs. Yes, there are other mul-
tiple things that we need to do, but making sure that we are put-
ting our money where our mouth is and addressing this problem
head-on is essential.
I have a few other questions particular to west Michigan, but I
really wanted to emphasize that point.
So west Michigan is home to world-class innovation. I have had
the privilege of touring small businesses in my district who are at
the forefront of research and development that will enhance every-
thing from medical treatments to new defense technologies. Many
of these businesses were SBIR/STTR award recipients. We had 11
businesses receive awards in 2024, 4 more recipients in 2025.
I was proud to vote in favor of the Small Business Innovation
and Economic Security Act last week, which passed the House and
would reauthorize those programs.
With specific reference to these programs, as we talk about the
importance of investment, Dr. Doshi, how will these programs, spe-
cifically, help our tech leadership?
Mr. DOSHI. Thank you very much, Congresswoman.
And, as you know, of course, the Midwest is home to a dispropor-
tionately large number of our high-tech manufacturers—small busi-
nesses, disproportionately.
And so I think for these companies, access to low-cost capital is
a challenge. Bigger companies can get better terms from big banks.
Our smaller companies struggle. They may not be as well known.
They are not as credible, perhaps. They have got other challenges.
The government can step in, as they do in China, but it doesn’t
have to be a big cost to the government. That is the benefit of some
of our programs.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Right.
Mr. DOSHI. And if you look at the track record, our programs
tend to do quite well. They end up creating huge economic benefits.
Sometimes even major companies emerge from SBIR and STTR.
So I think the question for us is, do we want to support these
companies in high tech? Because if we don’t want to support them,
China is going to support it, so we have to get even with them.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. That is exactly right. Thank you.
Dr. Doshi, your testimony highlights—I want to talk about small
manufacturers and exporters, specifically, who rely on technical as-
sistance to build up and keep an edge over their overseas competi-
tors.
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The MEP program—my district has benefited significantly from
the State’s work there. The Michigan Manufacturing Technology
Center, in addition. In the past 3 years, MMTC has assisted 145
manufacturing companies just in my district alone—145—impact-
ing over 16,000 employees. I mean, the impact is just so huge. And
I know Michigan is, you know, a little outsized there, with, you
know, our huge auto manufacturing sector, but this is a big deal
to us.
Moreover, MMTC is working to establish a new AI Lab to help
keep Michigan ahead of the AI curve.
Dr. Doshi, the Trump administration has withheld $19 million in
MEP funding, causing major staffing layoffs and hiring freezes
within most MEP centers. How is this harmful to our domestic
manufacturers? It almost goes without saying, but we are here to
take the testimony today, so please do say it.
Mr. DOSHI. Well, thank you, Congresswoman.
I think it is disastrous. I mean, a lot of these programs are now
seriously damaged. It will take, you know, months, if not years, for
them to scale back up again.
I am not really sure why. The President is very committed to re-
industrialization. His team believes in reindustrialization. I think
probably somewhere there has been a disconnect. And the team
that he has that cares about this should re-—should make sure
that these programs have the money that need.
Because the Chinese are investing, right? They do technical as-
sistance, and we don’t. They do technical from their SOEs, from the
universities, state research centers, on a industrial scale.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah.
Mr. DOSHI. And we shouldn’t pause ours.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah.
As a State that is also home to some of the leading universities
in the country, I worry about the brain drain, not from people leav-
ing this country, necessarily, but from not pursuing these advanced
degrees in technology because they are not seeing, you know, the
opportunity for themselves there as well.
So thank you. I am out of time. I thank you all for your testi-
mony today. It has been, you know, incredibly helpful.
Mr. Lyons, I especially appreciated some of your remarks, so
thank you.
Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And I think—do we have any more here in the hearing?
I would like to thank our witnesses. This has been a great hear-
ing. And this is a bipartisan subject we all agree with—99 percent,
I am sure; maybe even better.
But, without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to sub-
mit additional materials and the written questions for the wit-
nesses to the Chair—and before I finish that, somebody from Cali-
fornia just walked in.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. California time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. And I yield to the gentleman from Cali-
fornia.
Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Sorry. I had a briefing that I had to pop into, and I just got out
in time. And I couldn’t have my watch or anything, or my phone
or anything, to let me know what time it was, so—I am here now.
So thank you all for being here today, and thanks for your time.
And I guess I am the last one here before you can all go, but—so
I will be quick.
Mr. Doshi, the 2026 National Defense Strategy and National Se-
curity Strategy have shifted our focus as it relates to China. The
NDS places an implicit bet on outproducing China but hardly men-
tions technology, as you laid it out in your testimony.
China is prioritizing its small business, particularly in manufac-
turing and technology. How should Congress scale and invest in
programs that boost American small business in manufacturing
and technology?
Mr. DOSHI. Well, thank you very much, Congressman, for the
opportunity to talk a little bit about that.
My view is that the SBA has a number of tools. Some of them
have lapsed and can be reauthorized, and some of them can be ex-
panded.
In many cases, a lot of those instruments that the SBA has can
be packaged together to give small companies a one-stop shop so
that they can get demand-side support, supply-side support, and
regulatory support.
But the key point I want to emphasize is this: China takes its
small businesses very seriously as manufacturing competitors. It
gives them enormous amounts of resources. It gives them patent
support, expedited access to stock-market listings. And it even
forces the state companies and its government to buy from them.
We are not going to replicate their system, but we have to put
together a program that is not just individual projects and indi-
vidual initiatives but packaged together to make sure our compa-
nies are competitive.
Mr. CISNEROS. All right. Thank you.
You mentioned the SBA. So the SBA is creating barriers for
many small businesses to access resources, such as changing eligi-
bility for programs, threatening to pull offices from major metro-
politan hubs, and withholding funds from programs and resource
partners that support small businesses.
Are these counterproductive to the investments we need to be
making in our small businesses for their resilience on the global
stage?
Mr. DOSHI. Congressman, I do worry that some of the current
efforts are counterproductive. In particular, as we have discussed
in this hearing, some of the key programs have lapsed or have been
reauthorized but that has not fully gone through within the admin-
istration.
That can change quickly. We know that the President is com-
mitted to reindustrialization, so there may be a disconnect within
his team, but it should be possible to make progress.
As for, you know, offices closing that are part of the MEP pro-
gram, that is disastrous. I mean, when those offices close, it can
take a long time for them to staff back up. In the meantime, our
companies lose important connections to the assistance that they
need.
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Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you for that response.
Mr. Lyons, you highlighted the lack of awareness in security by
small businesses against cyber intrusion in your testimony.
If a small business wanted to improve their cybersecurity, what
federal education, legal, or technological resources are available to
them?
Mr. LYONS. Thank you, Congressman, for the question.
I think that the SBA has a cyber program that allows them to
take—allows small businesses to take advantage of some sub-
sidized offerings there. I think that should be expanded.
I think that CISA also puts out routinely updated information re-
garding how small businesses can protect themselves.
A lot of this is free.
Mr. CISNEROS. Uh-huh.
Mr. LYONS. A lot of this—I think tax credits would help bolster
defense and bolster awareness. But a lot of this is also out there
on sites like CISA or the NCSC.
Mr. CISNEROS. Can I ask just one followup on that? I mean, the
resources, you said, are free and are provided by CISA, SBA. But
when it comes to the actual financial cost of having to fight this,
how are small businesses able to keep it up? Or can they?
Mr. LYONS. Sir, they are not.
Mr. CISNEROS. Yeah.
Mr. LYONS. They simply—in conversations that we have had
with numerous small businesses, oftentimes economic espionage is
ignored because of the legal costs associated.
I would point to my written testimony of a few examples but also
of some possible legislative initiatives that could change something
like that.
Mr. CISNEROS. Mr. Doshi, you are shaking your head ‘‘yes,’’ so
I will let you respond to that as well.
Mr. DOSHI. Well, thank you, Congressman. I just want to add
one additional factor.
When our company is the victim of cyber espionage and they lose
their IP and it goes to a Chinese manufacturer, who then makes
the same things and sells it back to us, it should be easier for us
to stop the importation of that infringed-upon export.
Right now, it is really hard. Those small companies have to hire
lawyers; they have to go through a process. We should make it
easier for our companies to protect their IP from foreign manufac-
turers that have taken it essentially illegally.
Mr. CISNEROS. All right.
Thank you all for your testimony.
And, with that, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Mr. Bresnahan from the great State of Pennsyl-
vania for 5 minutes.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the Rank-
ing Member.
And thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
The influence of the Chinese Communist Party is no longer
something we can ignore or afford to underestimate. It is a real
threat to our economy and everyday life happening right now, and
our small businesses are on the front lines.
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The CCP knows exactly what kind of leverage it holds, and is not
afraid to use it, whether that means undercutting American busi-
nesses, stealing intellectual property, or flooding our markets with
cheap and inferior products.
COVID-19 made that crystal-clear. It exposed just how vulner-
able we are and how reliant we had become on China to keep our
economy and supply chains running. That should have been a
wake-up call, but that dependence still exists today, and it remains
a direct risk to both our economy and our national security.
That is why this Committee must continue working with the ad-
ministration and the SBA to bring manufacturing back home and
prioritize American production over CCP entanglement.
That starts with being clear about what the CCP involvement
means for our American entrepreneurs and their intellectual prop-
erty.
Starting a business is already a heavy lift. It takes risk, capital,
long hours, just to get off the ground. We have seen it happen too
many times: when the American entrepreneur puts everything on
the line to build something from the ground up, only to have a
CCP-linked company steal that idea, copy it using cheap labor, and
flood the markets with knock-offs that undercut them at home.
That is unacceptable and a fundamental threat to the American
Dream. We have a duty to protect American innovation from that
risk.
Mr. Murphy, you know this reality of the situation all too well,
and what your company went through is something no American
business should ever have to face.
So my first question, for Mr. Murphy: Looking back now, what
would you tell a small-business owner who was considering taking
on foreign investment? And what do you wish you had known be-
fore making that decision?
Mr. MURPHY. Mr. Chairman and Congressman, we have talked
a little bit about this—obviously, due diligence, expedient access to
capital, the type of capital.
And the one theme that I have heard here from the panel that
I think I just want to highlight is this. And I don’t know anything
about the ‘‘Little Giants’’ program in China, but something similar.
I mean, we are—our motto is ‘‘free markets and competition.’’ It
is not outside of our SBA to have a packaged-up, competing pro-
gram where an entrepreneur or business like mine can feel con-
fident and empowered to go to the SBA and have this package of
diligence, access to capital, trusted vetted capital partners, and the
like. That seems like something we can and should do to compete.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. At what point in the process, Mr. Murphy,
did you start to feel that something was wrong, or what was the
first indication that you had some kind of China influence taking
over your business? Was there, like, an antenna moment or an a-
ha moment that caught your attention?
Mr. MURPHY. Congressman, yes, there was. There was—as we
were breaking ground, one day, several individuals just arrived at
the site. They showed up at the gate, they wanted to be seen, and
they said that they had come over from Asia. And then, once we
started putting the pieces together, we realized, no, they came from
China, and who were they.
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And then it got back to—and we heard this term from Dr.
Doshi—who is the ultimate beneficial owner? We did not know.
And it turned out to be somebody different than the people that
were on site, and it turned out to be the person who had sent these
individuals.
So it was that, when they showed up, that——
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Totally unannounced.
Mr. MURPHY. Unannounced. And that is——
Mr. BRESNAHAN. And you had no recourse——
Mr. MURPHY.—when I said—and I said, ‘‘Stop. Something is
going on here.’’ And that is when I, in my mind, started realizing,
there is something afoot.
And then more came. And then when bitcoin miners showed up,
this, you know, millions and millions of dollars of bitcoin mining
machines showed up just on a dime—you know, 30 trucks, boom,
into Cheyenne—that is when I said, we are going to start docu-
menting, you know, every email, every conversation.
And then it was shortly after that that they said, ‘‘Hey, we want
to renegotiate our contract. Basically, you guys go from your oper-
ational role in our contract that was this to a very small role and
basically be our Wyoming guys to protect us in this State.’’ And
that was when we sued them.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. That is absolutely abhorrent and unaccept-
able.
One more followup question. What could we be doing in Congress
to prevent things like this from happening in the future to other
entrepreneurs and other businesses?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, Congressman. We have heard a lot of those
good ones, ideas, today in testimony. But I think it goes back to—
and I think, with this Committee, it is the SBA, right? That that
is where entrepreneurs—right now, as an entrepreneur, I wouldn’t
even have thought to go to the SBA. To get a loan? To get a $10-
million debt loan? Doesn’t make any sense.
But for that to be a resource that entrepreneurs and small busi-
ness can turn to that actually helps with capital, diligence, and all
these pieces, that, I think, makes the difference.
Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you for being here.
Mr. Chairman, I yield.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
And I now want to repeat myself and say what a great hearing
this has been.
Thank you guys for taking time to do that.
And, without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to sub-
mit additional materials and written questions for the witnesses to
the Chair, which will be forwarded to the witnesses. I ask the wit-
nesses to please respond promptly.
So, if there is no further business, without objection, the Com-
mittee is adjourned, and thank you again.
[Whereupon, at 11:28 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
[Mr. Andrew Pahutski did not respond to QFR’s in a timely man-
ner.]
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APPENDIX
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Æ
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-119hhrg63520.pdf
- Size
- 55,385,764 bytes
- SHA-256
- ce64eba769c4f58a2c7fbb146d8cfce0fe1cd19239f2131f34d8ebf5195e9a8c
- Our copy
- CHRG-119hhrg63520.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov