Volume I, Transcript of Testimony of Detective Tim O'Daniel at Jury Trial — United States v. Jones (Dkt. 77)
Summary
Document 77, filed 11/26/22, in Case 3:21-cr-00089-BJB-RSE, is Volume I of the transcript of testimony of Detective Tim O'Daniel at a jury trial on October 4, 2022, in United States of America against Salvador Abdul Jones, before Honorable Benjamin J. Beaton, United States District Judge, in the Western District of Kentucky. In direct examination by Ms. Gomez, the witness testifies about the digital forensics unit of the Louisville Metro Police Department and search warrant returns on cell phone numbers. Mr. Renn objects to Government's Exhibits 40A and 40B for no foundation, and the Court overrules the objection and allows the exhibits in. The transcript also records a bench conference and the jury leaving the courtroom.
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Cite this document
“Volume I, Transcript of Testimony of Detective Tim O'Daniel at Jury Trial — United States v. Jones (Dkt. 77).”
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Case 3:21-cr-00089-BJB-RSE Document 77 Filed 11/26/22 Page 1 of 35 PageID #:
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Volume 1, Page 1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
WESTERN DISTRICT OF KENTUCKY
2 LOUISVILLE DIVISION
3
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Case No. 3:21-CR-00089-BJB
4 )
Plaintiff, )
5 )
v. )
6 )
SALVADOR ABDUL JONES )
7 ) October 4, 2022
Defendant. ) Louisville, Kentucky
8
* * * * *
9
VOLUME I
10 TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE TIM O'DANIEL
AT JURY TRIAL
11 BEFORE HONORABLE BENJAMIN J. BEATON
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
12
* * * * *
13
APPEARANCES:
14
For United States: Alicia P. Gomez
15 Emily Lantz
U.S. Attorney's Office
16 717 West Broadway
Louisville, KY 40202
17
For Defendant: Patrick J. Renn
18 Smith & Helman
600 W Main Street, Suite 100
19 Louisville, KY 40202
20 [Defendant present.]
21
22 Rebecca S. Boyd, RMR, CRR
Official Court Reporter
23 232 U.S. Courthouse
Louisville, KY 40202
24 (502) 625-3777
25 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
produced by computer.
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1 (Begin proceedings in open court at 2:34 p.m. Jury
2 in.)
3 THE COURT: All right. Welcome back. Ms. Gomez.
4 MS. GOMEZ: Yes, Your Honor. United States calls
5 Timothy O'Daniel.
6 (DETECTIVE TIM O'DANIEL, called by the Government, sworn.)
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. GOMEZ:
9 Q. Will you please introduce yourself to the jury by telling
10 them your name?
11 A. Yeah. I am Tim O'Daniel --
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. -- with the Louisville Metro Police Department.
14 Q. Okay. And you indicated you're employed by the Louisville
15 Metro Police Department. How long have you been employed by
16 LMPD?
17 A. Yes, ma'am. I've been there approximately -- almost 12
18 years.
19 Q. Okay. And what -- where are you assigned?
20 A. I'm currently assigned to the digital forensics unit.
21 Q. Okay. What is the digital forensics unit?
22 A. So part of this, I was assigned to the homicide unit, and I
23 ran kind of a de facto digital forensic unit. We were
24 established last year. And what it is is we also -- we do -- we
25 do take physical cell phones, but we also do cell site analysis
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1 using cell phone numbers. We also will serve search warrants
2 and subpoenas to Facebook and social networking, Google and
3 Apple.
4 Q. Okay. And what is your title within the digital forensics
5 unit?
6 A. I am a detective.
7 Q. Okay. And -- so in this case, did you receive some search
8 warrant returns on two cell phone numbers and process those?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Okay. Tell me, how do you do that?
11 A. So what happens at the Louisville Metro Police Department is
12 a detective will draft a search warrant based on his
13 investigation, his or her investigation, and -- to an
14 appropriate company.
15 In this case, with a cell phone number, without having the
16 actual physical cell phone, we can actually get subscriber
17 information, location information, and kind of like a beefed-up
18 version of your cell phone records but with location
19 information.
20 That's all applied for in a search warrant. The detective
21 will bring it to the Court. The Court will allow it, and then
22 someone from LMPD will serve either T-Mobile, Verizon or AT&T
23 with a search warrant, and the search warrant will be
24 provided -- or the returns will be provided to LMPD.
25 Q. By returns, what do you mean by that?
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1 A. If I could -- if I could use my -- I actually made a
2 PowerPoint, but if I could use -- so there is a -- so when they
3 serve LM -- or when LMPD serves T-Mobile, for example, in this
4 case, they will give -- or return a giant Excel spreadsheet,
5 basically, and it will have incoming and outcoming calls, the
6 date and time of the incoming and outcoming calls, location
7 information, and also the duration of the call and the cell site
8 that the device was using.
9 Q. Can I show you -- I'd like to show you Government's Exhibit
10 40A and 40B, and tell me if you recognize what these are. This
11 is 40A.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recognize what that is?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And 40B.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You recognize that? Okay. What is in those exhibits that
18 we've just -- before I show them to the jury.
19 A. Okay. So -- yeah. So these are the actual returns, what I
20 was talking about. So the detective has served, for example, in
21 this case, T-Mobile with the search warrant, and T-Mobile has a
22 massive legal department. Well, a good-sized legal department
23 where they will process hundreds and thousands of these types of
24 search warrants every year.
25 They provide back a standard report from -- from their
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1 network, and that's what this is. This is -- this is the actual
2 return of the search warrant or the things that were asked for
3 in the search warrant.
4 Q. Okay. Are the things on the screen, Government's Exhibits
5 40A and 40B, these documents that we're seeing, do they fairly
6 and accurately depict what was the search warrant returns in
7 this case?
8 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 MS. GOMEZ: Okay. I would move to introduce
10 Government's Exhibits 40A and 40B.
11 MR. RENN: Objection. No foundation, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Go to headphones, please.
13 (Bench conference on the record.)
14 THE COURT: What else do you think he should have
15 testified to?
16 MR. RENN: Your Honor, according to the information on
17 40A, it shows that the requester of the information was Thomas
18 Hod -- Hodgkins, and I guess he is the one that received these
19 records pursuant to a search warrant.
20 Again, there's no -- been foundation that the warrant was
21 executed, who executed the warrant, who received these records.
22 All we know is he ultimately received these.
23 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Gomez, do you think you
24 could ask him if he could explain how these records came to be,
25 and why he understands what they say?
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1 MS. GOMEZ: I can absolutely do that, Judge.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else you anticipate taking
3 objection with?
4 MR. RENN: There is going to be an issue with this
5 witness, I believe, and it's going to be a Bullcoming problem.
6 This witness is ultimately going to be talking about cell
7 tower and pinging of a cell tower. When I reviewed this in
8 anticipation of this case, there is an e-mail to this particular
9 witness, and it's from a company ZetX TRAX. It appears they're
10 the ones that did the mapping here, not this witness. So under
11 Bullcoming, it would be improper for this witness to talk about
12 what someone else did.
13 MS. GOMEZ: Judge, I don't expect that that's going to
14 be the case. He prepared the PowerPoint presentation. He's
15 going to be showing the jury explaining the cell phone mapping
16 and the pings.
17 THE COURT: And is he going to explain why it is he
18 knows the information he's talking about?
19 MS. GOMEZ: Yes, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well, if you have a
21 specific objection later, you can take it up, but for now, let's
22 just ask questions that demonstrate why he's competent to
23 discuss these records, and we'll go from there.
24 (End of bench conference.)
25 BY MS. GOMEZ:
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1 Q. Detective O'Daniel, before we go into the records. How do
2 you -- how did you receive the records in this case?
3 A. I was given these records by the lead detective, Detective
4 Dean.
5 Q. Okay. And, to your knowledge, are they the records that
6 were received pursuant to a search warrant?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. GOMEZ: Your Honor, I would move to introduce
9 Government's Exhibits 40A and 40B.
10 MR. RENN: Same objection, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Sir, I guess, what's -- could you just
12 explain, if it's easy, what's the relationship between Dean, who
13 you mentioned, and Hodgkins, whose name is on the records?
14 A. Yes, sir. So at the time, there was a -- there was a unit
15 that would just send this stuff off, and it was really just for
16 billing information. Because these records cost money, every
17 time that we send one in.
18 When we received it back, I guess I would assume that
19 Hodgkins sent it to Dean, and then Dean would send it -- Dean
20 sent it to me.
21 BY MS. GOMEZ:
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. So that's how I came to be involved in the historical part
24 of these -- of the search warrant.
25 Q. Is Thomas Hodgkins an individual employed by LMPD?
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1 A. He is, yes.
2 Q. Okay. Is he generally who received the records?
3 A. Him or someone in that unit, yes.
4 Q. Okay. And then is it common practice that they be provided
5 to the detective who got the search warrant signed for the
6 records?
7 A. To -- yes. To the best of my ability, yeah. I mean, that's
8 from -- they would -- would receive it, and then they would send
9 it out to whoever the lead investigator is on that -- on that
10 case or who initiated the search warrant or wrote the search
11 warrant.
12 Q. Are these cert -- were those records certified?
13 A. One -- one -- I don't -- I don't recall if the -- if the
14 T-Mobile ones were or not.
15 Q. Okay. But they were received pursuant to a search warrant?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. GOMEZ: Okay. Your Honor, I would move to
18 introduce Government's Exhibit 40A and 40B.
19 MR. RENN: Same objection.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I'll overrule the objection and
21 allow these in, but I think you should really tailor your
22 questions to what -- his role in this, and how he knows what
23 he's testifying to. Okay?
24 MS. GOMEZ: Yes, Your Honor.
25 (Government Exhibits 40A and 40B admitted in
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1 evidence.)
2 BY MS. GOMEZ:
3 Q. Okay. So you received these records. Explain what it is
4 that you get out of these records.
5 A. So if your -- or these -- if you --
6 Q. And, actually, I'm sorry. Let me take that back. Before we
7 go into that.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How many records would you say you have reviewed in the
10 past?
11 A. Oh. I've been doing this job since around 2018, so
12 thousands.
13 Q. Okay. And what do you normally do with the records?
14 A. So now what happens is the detective -- and in this case,
15 the detective will send me the records. I take the records and
16 ingest them into a software that we use is -- and if we're -- if
17 you're looking at these records, and if you go a little farther
18 off to the -- to the right, it will have cell site information,
19 and this software reads the actual cell site location, and,
20 basically, these records are your -- your device's interactions
21 with those cell sites.
22 Q. Okay. And you indicated that you put -- you, essentially,
23 put these records inside of a software; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Are you trained in using that software?
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1 A. I am. Yeah. So I've taken a 40-hour basic course, a
2 40-hour subject matter expert course through the company that we
3 use to -- to provide this information. Not only that. I've
4 done forensic examinations of cell site analysis and other --
5 other law enforcement investigative courses used for cell site
6 analysis.
7 Q. Okay. How many times would you say you have used this
8 software by putting in cell phone records into it and ingesting,
9 essentially, the PowerPoint-type product you are going to be
10 showing the jury?
11 A. Hundreds of times.
12 MS. GOMEZ: I would like to publish Government's
13 Exhibit Number 40A.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MS. GOMEZ:
16 Q. Okay. If you could explain to the jury what they are
17 looking at here. You talked a little bit about the records, but
18 if you could explain what they're looking at.
19 A. So this is the response from T-Mobile. Obviously, the top
20 is self-explanatory. These were the -- the information was
21 provided on May 20, 20 -- 2021, in response to a search warrant
22 for the target number, which is that, if I can -- I think I can
23 do this.
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. You see the (615) 351-3671. This was the -- the number the
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1 search warrant -- or I believe that the search warrant was
2 written for, and those -- and if you keep on going down to the
3 next sentence.
4 T-Mobile provides these records in a date that they receive
5 it but also what they call Universal Coordinated -- or Universal
6 Time Coordinated or Coordinated Universal Time, which is
7 otherwise known as Prime Meridian Time, Greenwich Mean Time. In
8 the -- in the military, we called it Zulu time.
9 It's just -- it's a standard that a lot of companies use so
10 that they don't have to adjust for the difference between
11 Louisville Metro Police Department and, for example, Paducah
12 Police Department, because we're on two different time zones.
13 So they provide these records back in the standard time zone.
14 And if I can delete that.
15 Q. And we can see here on this page that this is one of one
16 thousand four hundred eighty-five; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So are -- these records, you had indicated, generally, when
19 received back, are pretty voluminous?
20 A. They are -- yeah. They are very large.
21 Q. Okay. So you indicated that you received the records for
22 this phone number here, the (615) 351-3671; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And what did you do once you received these records
25 in this case?
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1 A. So, again, I take this -- this is provided in an Excel-type
2 format, and I take them and I ingest them into our software, and
3 our software will spit out what's a -- what is a KMZ or it's
4 a -- it's a ZIP file of a Google Earth mapped location, and --
5 yeah.
6 Q. And did you prepare a presentation today of the records --
7 using those records provided by T-Mobile?
8 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 Q. Okay. And just to be clear. Was this a presentation you
10 created yourself?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Using the software that you've been trained on?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. GOMEZ: Okay. Your Honor, I would move --
15 BY MS. GOMEZ:
16 Q. And the information that's in the records -- or in this
17 presentation, does it fairly and accurately depict what you did
18 with these records?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. GOMEZ: Your Honor, I would move to introduce
21 Government's Exhibit 41 and allow the wit -- publish -- allow
22 for it to be published, and for the witness to be able to show
23 it to the jury.
24 MR. RENN: Same objection, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Can you give Mr. Renn and me copies of
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1 this presentation?
2 MS. GOMEZ: I have provided -- I have provided it
3 prior.
4 THE COURT: So it's in my binder?
5 MS. GOMEZ: Yes, Your Honor. And I provided a zip --
6 a thumb drive as well with the entirety of the records and the
7 presentation. And slide number five, Your Honor, is
8 interactive, so it can only really be viewed on the thumb drive.
9 THE COURT: Can we go to headphones, please?
10 (Bench conference on the record.)
11 THE COURT: All right. So looking at 41. First slide
12 is just excerpts of what we've -- the type of record that
13 we've -- that I admitted and we've been discussing, right?
14 MS. GOMEZ: That's correct, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Okay. What's the next slide?
16 MS. GOMEZ: The next slide is just -- it's just
17 photographs so the jury can understand that cell sites are
18 essentially everywhere. They're essentially hidden in the city
19 without us knowing they are placed at different locations. It's
20 just an example of where cell sites are located.
21 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Renn, do you have any
22 objection to this slide? I mean, I'm assuming if you ask him
23 about it, you're going to make clear that these aren't
24 necessarily the cell sites he's talking about, right? These are
25 purely --
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1 MS. GOMEZ: Examples.
2 THE COURT: -- examples?
3 MS. GOMEZ: That's correct, Your Honor.
4 MR. RENN: I understand, Your Honor. Yes. Thank you.
5 THE COURT: That's fine?
6 MR. RENN: Yes.
7 THE COURT: All right. Next slide. What do we have
8 here?
9 MS. GOMEZ: This is what the returns look like for
10 them once he puts it in the software, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Tell me in plain English what the software
12 does.
13 MS. GOMEZ: Essentially, when they are -- when they
14 get back the cell phone location information, the tower is set
15 up, not like a triangle, but it's sort of like a slanted T. And
16 so it's split up into three quadrants, and so you can tell which
17 face of the tower the phone is using.
18 And so when they receive the records, this has the phone
19 number that was connected to, they can tell -- it says outgoing
20 voice, so they can tell from the records that it was a phone
21 call that was made to this number. The duration would be 12
22 minutes.
23 With the tower that was used in the sector, that's how the
24 software is able to -- that's how the detective is able to look
25 at the -- from the software and know that it's correct, and he
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1 has actually -- he knows from doing this multiple times exactly
2 how it -- for example, in this case, there is a cell tower
3 directly outside of the defendant's house.
4 And so he has driven to some of the cell towers, not all of
5 them, and can know, essentially, the way the cell tower provides
6 that information. And then it tells you --
7 THE COURT: Hold on. He ran the data he got for a
8 warrant through a program which produced an image like the one
9 on the left of this sheet?
10 MS. GOMEZ: That's correct.
11 THE COURT: And he then recreated or corroborated or
12 what did he do in person?
13 MS. GOMEZ: He does what's called a drive test, not to
14 every cell site, but that he goes to see if there is a cell site
15 close by.
16 THE COURT: Close by what?
17 MS. GOMEZ: Close to -- so the records are
18 indicating -- well, this -- this black dot on the -- on the
19 fourth slide is where the cell site is located.
20 So he wants to make sure that, obviously, it's accurate. So
21 that's why he looks at, okay, there is a cell site in this area.
22 But it provides, essentially, this radius, it's quite a big
23 radius, in terms of the -- what is provided.
24 THE COURT: So his testimony is that when he -- when
25 these two numbers connected on this twelve-second call, this was
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1 the area in which the target number would have been located?
2 MS. GOMEZ: That's correct. It's using that tower to
3 place the call.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Why can't he explain it in plain
5 English like we're talking about it now? If this is his job,
6 and he does it all the time, we're really not doing a great job
7 of connecting his knowledge to the facts he was given, and to
8 explain why he knows what he knows. I'm not doubting that he
9 can, but I just think it's been quite confusing --
10 MS. GOMEZ: I think he's --
11 THE COURT: -- thus far.
12 MS. GOMEZ: -- used to using his PowerPoint to explain
13 it, Judge, and so I think that's what he's struggling with is
14 that, normally, he uses his PowerPoint to explain this.
15 THE COURT: Isn't this his PowerPoint?
16 MS. GOMEZ: This is.
17 THE COURT: All right. So, Mr. Renn, I think on this
18 cell site analysis tab, I don't know if you have a specific
19 objection here, but to the extent he is able to say, you know,
20 "Here is the information we received. This is the depiction of
21 what I know to be true on the ground, and this is what I,
22 through this typical method, sort of derive from it, and that's
23 what I'm showing here," then that seems to be all right.
24 I don't want him to get up there and just say, "Oh, we know,
25 because here's what the program, you know, spits out, and take
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1 my word for it," you know, but I don't think we're going to -- I
2 don't think we're headed there. So in light of what I said and
3 what she said, do you have a concern about this particular
4 slide?
5 MR. RENN: Your Honor, I'm not sure about the slide,
6 but, again, I've got an e-mail that was sent from the company,
7 it's a LexisNexis company, ZetX TRAX, and it says, "Hello,
8 Timothy O'Daniel. TRAX was able to map the file CDR
9 mediations," and that's what T-Mobile calls their data records,
10 and it has the number. You can view this on Google Earth map
11 here, and then you go to the download.
12 So this is clearly saying that TRAX did it, and he may say
13 he put it into the software, be he's being advised by the
14 company that they're the ones that was able to map this out.
15 And then they say some of the rows from the file cannot be
16 mapped. "In order to fully map the cell sites and rows listed
17 below, we'll need more information from T-Mobile. You can
18 discard this e-mail if you do not need the rows listed below and
19 mapped."
20 So, again, based on this e-mail, it seems very plain someone
21 other than this witness did this PowerPoint or, you know, mapped
22 these -- mapped this information out.
23 THE COURT: And even if someone else was involved in
24 the creation of this image, if it represents what he knows and
25 methods he can understand and apply, then what would the problem
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1 be?
2 MR. RENN: Your Honor, and go --
3 THE COURT: Not just that someone else put it
4 together, right? What's the missing information?
5 MR. RENN: No. It's Bullcoming, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: How does the holding of Bullcoming limit
7 his ability to present information that -- that he knows and
8 understands?
9 MR. RENN: In Bullcoming, Your Honor, they sent a lab
10 personnel who actually did not do the testing in to testify, and
11 the United States Supreme Court said that's not -- that's not
12 accurate. That's not enough. You have to have the person that
13 actually did the testing.
14 And here, it sure looks like to me that this LexisNexis
15 company was the one that was able to map these CDR mediations,
16 again, the call detail records from T-Mobile. They're sending
17 this e-mail to this witness saying, "We were able to map it."
18 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Gomez, I'm confident this
19 isn't the first time this has arisen. How do you normally --
20 MS. GOMEZ: Judge --
21 THE COURT: -- overcome an objection that, you know,
22 the witness on the stand isn't the one who actually computed all
23 of this?
24 MS. GOMEZ: Judge, but he said he is who did it.
25 That's why I don't -- I don't --
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1 THE COURT: So what's your answer to this objection
2 that Renn is raising about LexisNexis having done it? What's
3 the difference here?
4 MS. GOMEZ: I mean, I think he can cross him on that.
5 You're saying that you made it --
6 THE COURT: No, but --
7 MS. GOMEZ: -- or not, but it says that he made -- he
8 made the --
9 THE COURT: It can't be true that both he did it and
10 Lexis did it, and, surely, that it's something complimentary,
11 right? Not the exact same day.
12 MS. GOMEZ: I have that Detective Dean gave him the
13 raw data, and that he created this PowerPoint. So, I mean --
14 THE COURT: So what's this Lexis thing he's talking
15 about? Do you know?
16 MS. GOMEZ: Honestly, I provided the e-mails in
17 Jencks, but I don't -- I don't even know -- I didn't pay that
18 much attention to it, Judge. I provided the e-mails, but I
19 don't know even what he's talking about.
20 And I didn't realize he was citing a case when he was saying
21 Bull something or other, I thought he was using a slang term, so
22 I apologize. I didn't realize he was citing a case when he --
23 THE COURT: Okay. The US Supreme Court decision about
24 the confrontation clause and DNA analysis.
25 MS. GOMEZ: To the extent that a different map was
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1 cre -- I don't -- I don't have that, Judge. I don't -- I'm not
2 moving to introduce something somebody else made. My
3 understanding is Detective O'Daniel used the raw data and made
4 this, Judge.
5 MR. RENN: But from the software provided by
6 LexisNexis.
7 MS. GOMEZ: From the software he is trained to use. I
8 don't --
9 THE COURT: Hold on. If he used this software,
10 whether it's from Lexis or -- so it's TRAX? That's what --
11 you're talking what we see here on the fourth slide?
12 MR. RENN: That is correct. Z-E-T, capital X, and
13 then TRAX, T-R-A-X.
14 THE COURT: Okay. If he used this tool to create this
15 map, then there's no Bullcoming problem, because you can
16 cross-examine him on how he used the data to produce this map or
17 these results, right?
18 MR. RENN: Again, all I -- I'm not sure what he did,
19 but all I can say is this e-mail said TRAX was able to map, and
20 it gives the number --
21 THE COURT: Right.
22 MR. RENN: -- and the cell tower.
23 THE COURT: Look, if he didn't do any of the analysis,
24 then we may have a problem, but she believes he did. In which
25 case, you can cross him on it.
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1 So let's use this PowerPoint, and, again, let's stick to
2 sort of what he knows and what he did, not from -- not what he
3 heard from someone else, and then you'll have a chance to cross
4 him on it, and I think we'll be okay. All right?
5 But let's just make very clear, clearer, hopefully, than he
6 has so far, what his role in using this information to create
7 this presentation is. Okay?
8 MS. GOMEZ: Thank you, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 (End of bench conference.)
11 BY MS. GOMEZ:
12 Q. Detective O'Daniel, this software -- and just so we're
13 clear, did you use the software to create what -- the PowerPoint
14 we're about to see?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And what's the name of the software you use?
17 A. So it's a product by LexisNexis, it's called TRAX, and what
18 it is is you take the actual -- the search warrant return, which
19 is that Excel file like I was talking about, and you put it into
20 the TRAX.
21 And what it does is it helps you map but also analyze
22 those -- those records. It converts the records that were
23 provided in that -- that Universal Time Coordinated into Eastern
24 Time, depending on the time of year. And in this case, I think
25 it was UTC -- we were UTC minus four.
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1 But -- but it also -- it will provide what they -- what they
2 have as a cell site, an estimated location for the -- for a
3 device using -- with -- with what it's -- with the cell site
4 that it's interacting with. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And, again, just to be clear, you used the records
6 you received from the search warrant return to input them into
7 this software to get this presentation we're going to see?
8 A. Yes. I was provided those records by Dean. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And you made this presentation?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I did. Yeah.
11 MS. GOMEZ: Your Honor, I would move to introduce and
12 publish Government's Exhibit 41.
13 MR. RENN: Objection for the same reasons previously
14 stated.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Let's admit this, but let's move
16 through it methodically. Okay?
17 MS. GOMEZ: Okay.
18 MS. ALIC: We're frozen. Just a second. There we go.
19 BY MS. GOMEZ:
20 Q. Okay. All right. What are we looking at here?
21 A. So these are just -- I took a snippet of -- this is the
22 actual search warrant return, and there was -- this is a long --
23 the long form of what we just saw earlier.
24 This is, again, what we get back. This is provided on May
25 20, 2021. And if you go down, if you start from the left and go
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1 right, it will be the date that a communication was made with
2 the target cell phone. And, again, the -- or the cell phone
3 number.
4 So the target cell phone number was this (615) 351-3671.
5 The records were provided in UTC, and this is the date of this
6 call or text message, this is the date of -- or this -- I'm
7 sorry. This is the time of that.
8 And, again, this is in -- excuse me. That -- that U -- that
9 UTC time. So to get to Eastern Time, you will -- typically,
10 what we do is we subtract four or five hours, and, in this case,
11 we subtracted four hours.
12 The -- if you would take this -- this line as an example,
13 this call was made on the 1st of April, 2021, at approximately
14 0105 and 29 seconds, and the time is in a 24-hour format similar
15 to military time.
16 There is -- the duration of the call was 19 seconds. The
17 call type was mobile. Terminating, which is the device or the
18 phone number that we're -- that we're looking at received an
19 incoming call from that (615) 947-5291.
20 Q. Sorry.
21 A. Oh, yeah.
22 Q. I'm trying to help you. Are you talking about this --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- part in the record?
25 A. Yeah. Right.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. So you can see that it received or it was -- it received an
3 incoming call from that number to our target number for 19
4 seconds. And if you go just further on, this is the -- just to
5 explain these records.
6 This is the IMSI, which is the international mobile
7 subscriber identity, and, really, this is just a number for the
8 subscriber. If you were to change phone numbers, this number
9 would stay the same.
10 Q. Where -- where was that number on there?
11 A. I'm sorry. It's -- it's right here on the --
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. This is what we would call the IMSI.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And that's the actual subscriber number, and if I can,
16 like --
17 Q. I'll delete it.
18 A. There you go. The IMEI is the actual -- for lack of a
19 better term, it's the serial number for the phone that -- that
20 we -- that was requested.
21 So the detective will request a search warrant on the phone
22 number and then get all this information back, the IMSI, the
23 IMEI, which is the actual type of phone, and he can look up --
24 or he or she can look up the actual type of phone.
25 And then if we get -- if you move a little further down, we
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1 start talking about the actual cell site ID, the sector of the
2 cell site, and the latitude -- longitude and latitude of cell
3 site. And this is where the software derives its location
4 information from. So if I can go -- well --
5 Q. Want to go forward?
6 A. So -- yeah. Can I?
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Yeah. If I can go forward, I can -- and clear it.
9 Q. Go one more?
10 A. No. That's -- that's fine.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. That's fine where --
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Just -- just right there. So when you -- when your phone or
15 your mobile device receives or makes an outgoing phone call or a
16 text message or data, it connects to what's generally known as a
17 cell site. Some people call it a cell tower, and this is the
18 old school kind of cell tower where these -- there's these
19 giant, massive things, these giant, massive towers with -- with
20 all these radio antennas on it, but, really, a cell site could
21 be the side of a building, a street post and another street
22 post, and --
23 Q. And just so we're clear, these are just examples, these
24 aren't the cell sites in this case; is that --
25 A. Yes, ma'am.
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1 Q. -- correct?
2 A. Yeah. These are -- these are pure examples of something
3 that I've observed, and then it makes it easier to explain how a
4 cell phone connects to a cell site.
5 So when you -- for example, when you make a phone call, your
6 cell site -- your cell phone interacts with that cell fight --
7 cell site. And these cell sites, years ago, used to be these
8 giant towers. Well, now, they're virtually everywhere. They're
9 on -- are on the side of buildings. They're on the street
10 posts.
11 And as cell phones become more common, and more data is
12 shuffled through cell phones, and all this information is
13 provided, they need more towers or they need more cell sites to
14 provide this information.
15 And so what happens is if you make a phone call -- let's say
16 you're in Shepherdsville, and you're coming to the federal
17 courthouse. When you make a phone call, your phone is not going
18 to reach out to the cell site closest to the federal courthouse,
19 it's going to reach out to the cell site that it is closest to
20 you, maybe.
21 And it may -- it may reach out -- depending on geography and
22 weather, but it may reach out to a cell site in Shepherdsville,
23 and then you will -- as you're -- as you're driving in, you will
24 make handoffs.
25 And the same thing goes with receiving a phone call. When
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1 someone calls you, it goes to the site that's -- that's somewhat
2 closest to them. It goes through T-Mobile's network, for
3 example, and they find you on wherever you're at, and then they
4 send you the phone call, and it happens very, very, very
5 quickly.
6 And that's what we're looking at when we see -- excuse me.
7 This information is that T-Mobile is saying that it used this
8 cell site at this location, and this is the address of the -- of
9 the cell site. And so that's what LexisNexis, the TRAX
10 software, will use to derive that location information.
11 THE COURT: So may I ask?
12 A. Yes, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: The site ID is just a label for the tower,
14 right?
15 A. Yes. Yes, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: The first thing you circled?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE COURT: The second thing you've circled, those two
19 columns --
20 A. Is --
21 THE COURT: -- first tower lat and long, that is some
22 sort of locational designation, like -- like latitude and
23 longitude or something like that --
24 A. Yes.
25 THE COURT: -- but they're on a map, right?
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1 A. Yes, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: And then the first tower address is the
3 street address where that numbered tower is found --
4 A. Yes, Your --
5 THE COURT: -- right?
6 A. Yes, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: And so how is that phone call
8 associated -- how do you know that phone call is associated with
9 that tower site?
10 A. Through the T-Mobile records. So T-Mobile is saying that
11 this -- this phone call was used as the cell site ID. That was
12 25778. I will take these records, ingest them into the
13 LexisNexis software, and then to corroborate this -- this
14 information, I will use -- the Department of Justice has a --
15 actually, it has a website that you go to to look up these cell
16 sites to see the sectors and to see the actual location
17 information for them.
18 THE COURT: All right. I don't want to highjack this,
19 but can you just walk through his role in sorting this out, and
20 what you may or may not know from it?
21 MS. GOMEZ: Yes.
22 BY MS. GOMEZ:
23 Q. So tell us, when you're looking at this, exactly as the
24 Court just said, you get -- we saw that the cell phone records
25 really were over 1,000 pages; is that correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then you put that in the software, and does the software
3 use -- you indicated that this is the cell site tower; is that
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then that these are the latitude and longitude
7 coordinates for where that tower is?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then this right here, this physical address there is
10 actually where the cell tower is located?
11 A. Yes. That's the address --
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. -- of the cell tower.
14 Q. And you can look that up on a website, you indicated, to
15 verify that that's where the tower is located?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you could also drive there; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And so when you receive these records that has --
20 that have this information, the date, the duration of the call,
21 the phone number that made the call or received it, and the
22 towers, what do you then do with that information?
23 A. So I take the information and I ingest it into the software.
24 Q. Okay. And we have another portion here at the bottom. What
25 is that that we're looking at?
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1 A. So -- so this is one -- one part of the actual search
2 warrant return was the actual -- the -- what they call -- the
3 call detail records. This other part down at the bottom is the
4 subscriber information provided by T-Mobile.
5 And in this case, you can see that, you know, the subscriber
6 name, which can be whatever the subscriber either signed up for,
7 who is on the account, the account details, which, typically,
8 will provide someone's name, and the account number, the account
9 effective date, the type of phone. So if you see the account
10 name and number and effective date the account -- or the actual
11 phone model, which is -- in this case, was the Apple iPhone SE2.
12 The ICCID is the SIM card serial number. The IMSI, again,
13 is the subscriber information. The MSISDN is, essentially, the
14 phone number, and then the device information is the IMEI.
15 Q. Okay. So you indicated -- once you put it in, what does the
16 product -- what does it look like once you put in this -- these
17 records for the system to process, the software to process?
18 A. Yeah. So I'll take these records. Again, I'll ingest them
19 into this software. The software will produce a Google Earth
20 file. And what we do is we -- we will take the Google Earth
21 file, and then we'll analyze the location data from the actual
22 Google Earth file using -- using this -- these -- these -- the
23 product of LexisNexis.
24 Q. Okay. And does the Goo --
25 THE COURT: Well, hold on. What's a Google Earth
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1 file?
2 A. It's a -- it's a KM -- it's a KML file. Sorry. It's a KML
3 file.
4 THE COURT: What's a KML file?
5 A. So it's -- it is -- it uses Google Earth Pro, and what you
6 can see is --
7 BY MS. GOMEZ:
8 Q. What is Google Earth Pro?
9 A. Google Earth Pro is a program -- to the best of my
10 knowledge, is a program put on by Google, and you can see
11 satellite images and street-level views of specific addresses,
12 states, and, in this case -- or, typically, what I work with is
13 Louisville and the surrounding areas.
14 THE COURT: Is it just a map or is it spitting out
15 places on the map? Does that make sense? Are you taking data
16 and just putting it in a map or is it telling you -- is it
17 processing information?
18 A. So it's -- it is spitting out the map as the base layer, and
19 then this -- this information from T-Mobile will be layered on
20 top of that using the location information.
21 So -- and it is a -- it is a point where -- like, the way I
22 believe that TRAX works is they -- they take this location
23 information, it plots it, and then it goes on the specific
24 sector of the cell site, and then --
25 MR. RENN: And I'm going to object to all this.
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1 THE COURT: All right. Let's go back to headphones.
2 (Bench conference on the record.)
3 THE COURT: Are you going to ask this guy anything
4 else besides the TRAX program?
5 MS. GOMEZ: Judge, I just want him to be able to play
6 the cell -- the physical cell phone pings he got here and show
7 where they showed.
8 THE COURT: What do you mean play it?
9 MS. GOMEZ: It's a PowerPoint that will show the
10 different location pings.
11 THE COURT: I think we should press pause and let this
12 guy -- I mean, I would -- if you want to cross him now, you can,
13 but I would rather just pause, and then when it's time for a
14 break, have this guy take the stand, and we can just talk in
15 plain English outside the earshot of the jury about what he
16 knows and what he doesn't know.
17 But some of this is very hazy, and I don't think I'm in a
18 position yet to rule one way or another on the admissibility or
19 objections without hearing, in more detail, what he knows and
20 what he doesn't know, and how this all operates.
21 And -- and then I don't know where -- we could take a break
22 and do that now or we could just move -- move on and come back
23 to him. We've been going, I don't know, only about 35 minutes
24 or so, but I just -- I don't think I'm in a position right now
25 to give you a thumbs up or thumbs down on this, and I'm nervous
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1 about exploring it in front of the jury.
2 MS. GOMEZ: Judge --
3 THE COURT: And I think Mr. Renn is wor -- has the
4 same concern.
5 MS. GOMEZ: I would ask that we take a break.
6 Detective O'Daniel is out of town, so I have to -- it's kind of
7 an odd time to put him on. Obviously, he's out of order, but he
8 is going out of town, which is why I had to put him on today.
9 MR. RENN: Your Honor, I would object to doing
10 anything that is going to change where we are right now. Like
11 any other witness that gets flustered and appears unsure, that's
12 what cross-examination is all about, and that's what this jury
13 is going to be determining. In fact --
14 THE COURT: Well, I don't think he's flustered. I
15 think what -- what I'm trying to do is understand your objection
16 and how it applies, and I'm not totally clear on your objection
17 either.
18 So that's fine, we can just take a break, let them go, and
19 then we can talk through this information out of the earshot of
20 the jury. Okay?
21 MR. RENN: And, again, I would object to anybody
22 talking with this witness. He is on direct examination, so I
23 don't think he is --
24 THE COURT: Ms. Gomez is not going to coach him during
25 a break. Okay?
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1 MR. RENN: And, again, the same way with us. Again, I
2 would object to talking through things. I think he needs to
3 continue his direct examination, and when the direct examination
4 is finished, then I would start my cross-examination. I would
5 object to any stoppage of that right now.
6 THE COURT: No. I need to hear it from out of the
7 earshot of the jury to know, with an informed basis, whether to
8 grant your mo -- your objection or not.
9 (End of bench conference.)
10 THE COURT: All right. As you-all can infer, we have
11 some things we need to talk through, and I don't want to waste
12 your time sitting here while the -- listening to the white
13 noise. So we're going to take what I hope will be a short
14 break. You guys can go back to the jury room, use the restroom.
15 It's a little bit in advance of when we would, but that's
16 okay, because we'll be able to keep making progress without you
17 just twiddling your thumbs. We'll bring you back when we're
18 ready to move on. Okay? Thank you.
19 (Jury out 3:24 p.m.)
20 C E R T I F I C A T E
21 I CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM
22 THE RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER.
23
24
s/Rebecca S. Boyd November 26, 2022
25 Official Court Reporter Date
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Volume 1, Page 35
1 INDEX
2 GOVERNMENT WITNESS:
3 DETECTIVE TIM O'DANIEL PAGE
4 Direct Examination by Ms. Gomez 2
5
EXHIBITS
6
7 GOVERNMENT:
8 Exhibit 40A 8
Exhibit 40B 8
9
10 DEFENDANT:
No exhibits
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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