Nomination of William Kirk to Be Inspector General of the Small Business Administration
Summary
The printed record of a September 10, 2025 hearing of the Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, S. Hrg. 119–169, on the nomination of William Kirk to be Inspector General of the Small Business Administration. Chair Joni Ernst's opening statement says SBA's Office of Inspector General estimated more than $200 billion in potentially fraudulent COVID relief advances and loans, and cites S.1199, the SBA Fraud Enforcement Extension Act. Ranking Member Edward J. Markey says the President illegally fired the previous SBA Inspector General and raises concerns about Kirk's independence. Senator Josh Hawley introduced Kirk, citing his service as deputy counsel and acting counsel to the Inspector General at the Environmental Protection Agency. The record includes Kirk's prepared statement and his responses to questions from Chair Ernst.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Full text
S. HRG. 119–169
NOMINATION OF WILLIAM KIRK
TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE
SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
SEPTEMBER 10, 2025
Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
(
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
61–658 WASHINGTON : 2026
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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
JONI ERNST, Iowa, Chair
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Ranking Member
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
RAND PAUL, Kentucky JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey
TODD YOUNG, Indiana CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware
JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
TED BUDD, North Carolina JACKY ROSEN, Nevada
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado
JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
JON HUSTED, Ohio
MEREDITH WEST, Republican Staff Director
SEAN MOORE, Democratic Staff Director
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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Joni Ernst, U.S. Senator from Iowa, Chair ........................................................... 1
Edward Markey, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts, Ranking Member .............. 2
Josh Hawley, U.S. Senator from Missouri ............................................................. 3
WITNESS
Mr. William Kirk of Maryland ................................................................................ 5
Prepared statement .......................................................................................... 8
QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
Mr. William Kirk of Maryland
Responses to questions submitted by Chair Ernst ........................................ 22
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NOMINATION OF WILLIAM KIRK
TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE
SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 2025
UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP,
WASHINGTON, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:31 p.m., in Room
428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Joni Ernst, chairwoman
of the committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Ernst [presiding], Young, Hawley, Husted,
Markey, Hirono, Hickenlooper, and Schiff.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST
CHAIR. I call the Committee on Small Business and Entrepre-
neurship to order. The purpose of today’s hearing is to consider
President Trump’s nominee for Inspector General of the Small
Business Administration, William Kirk. I’d like to welcome you
here today and thank you for your willingness to serve.
Just to give folks a quick run of show, I’m going to make a brief
opening statement, then I’ll turn to Ranking Member Markey to do
the same. Then, we will introduce the nominee, and I will admin-
ister the oath. After the oath, Mr. Kirk will be recognized for his
statement. Mr. Kirk’s statement will be followed by questions from
our members, alternating between each side.
I now recognize myself for five minutes for an opening statement.
Again, welcome to the committee, and thank you, Mr. Kirk, for
your willingness to serve in this role. Today we are considering Mr.
William Kirk as the nominee for a very important position of SBA’s
Inspector General.
I am impressed with the strong track record and integrity of the
individual here today, and I appreciate the time you’ve spent meet-
ing with me and my colleagues prior to this hearing. I want to take
a minute to recognize your family and friends here supporting you
today.
I especially want to welcome your wife, Elizabeth, and your four
children; Will, Ben, Alice, and Nicholas, thank you for being here.
Mr. Kirk, thank you for embracing the committee’s standard, yet
extensive vetting of your experience and background in advance of
today’s hearing and upcoming vote on your nomination.
The role of Inspector General is critical and unique, requiring
complete independence and impartiality to ensure effective over-
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sight and accountability at the agency. Throughout my career, I
have prioritized eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse in govern-
ment. I appreciate the demands and challenges of the IG role, hav-
ing served as a county auditor, examining the local books, and
making sure everything was above board. I’ve continued that work
and in addition to being chair of this committee, I serve as chair
of the Inspector’s General Caucus.
I strongly value the partnership between IGs and Congress, and
the value they provide to the country. At SBA specifically, thorough
investigations are needed to ensure that those who exploited the
COVID relief programs are brought to justice, and their illicit gains
are returned to the American taxpayer.
In 2020, small businesses needed help, and the American tax-
payers graciously provided it. It is completely unacceptable that
bad actors took advantage of this emergency assistance. The SBA’s
Office of Inspector General estimated that more than $200 billion
in potentially fraudulent COVID relief advances and loans were
disbursed in the years following the pandemic. Taxpayers want to
know where their money went. Yet, the federal government has
done little to hold these criminals accountable. This must change.
I’m proud to have worked across the aisle to pass out of com-
mittee earlier this year S.1199, the SBA Fraud Enforcement Exten-
sion Act, which extends the statute of limitations for crimes against
the COVID-era programs, and gives the SBA IG the time necessary
to fully investigate and hold fraudsters accountable. Mr. Kirk,
when we met, I shared with you my belief that we must take sub-
stantial action to identify and eliminate fraud, waste, and abuse.
I look forward to working with you to recover these funds.
I especially appreciate that today’s nominee for Inspector Gen-
eral brings firsthand experience to the IG role. Mr. Kirk previously
served for three years at the Environmental Protection Agency’s
OIG as deputy counsel to the IG, and as acting counsel to the IG.
While working for the EPA, Mr. Kirk received an exceptional serv-
ice award for his hard work, dedication, and invaluable contribu-
tions to the Office of Counsel and OIG, demonstrating his excep-
tional character and his utmost integrity.
The Office of Inspector General at the SBA is essential to the
agency’s oversight, and I’m pleased that the President acted swiftly
with this nomination. Again, thank you, Mr. Kirk, for being here,
and I look forward to your testimony.
And now, I recognize Ranking Member Markey for his opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR MARKEY
Senator MARKEY. Thank you, Madam Chair. Today, we will hear
from President Trump’s nominee for Inspector General at the
Small Business Administration, William Kirk. We thank you, Mr.
Kirk, for being here today.
I would like to take note that we are only here because earlier
this year, President Trump illegally fired more than a dozen in-
spectors general, including the SBA’s previous Inspector General
Mike Ware. Mr. Ware, who notably was nominated by President
Trump in 2017, was effective, diligent, nonpartisan, and inde-
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pendent. He held the administrations accountable regardless of
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party investigating both the first Trump administration and the
Biden administration.
Eight years after nominating Mr. Ware as the SBA’s IG, Presi-
dent Trump decided to break the law, and purge Mr. Ware along
with many other IGs across the government just days after his sec-
ond term began. He did this because he knows that impartial
watchdogs could compromise his agenda, which runs afoul of the
law at every turn. And now, as we predicted, he is filling IG offices
across the government with MAGA loyalists to serve as IG.
At the Department of Labor, President Trump nominated former
Republican Congressman Anthony D’Esposito, who according to re-
ports, used taxpayer dollars to enrich people in his personal life. At
the Department of Veterans Affairs, he nominated Cheryl Mason,
a former Trump appointee, who intimidated potential whistle-
blowers from coming forward, and was part of President Trump’s
plan to gut the VA workforce. President Trump has shamelessly
nominated loyalists for IG positions at the Department of Agri-
culture, Health and Human Services, and even at the Pentagon.
This President clearly does not care about non-partisan over-
sight. The I in IG should stand for many things, like, independent
or impartial, but President Trump clearly thinks it should stand
for illegal, or in Trump’s pocket. And now, for the SBA, President
Trump has nominated Mr. Kirk to serve as the watchdog.
Unfortunately, his record of independence gives no assurance
that he will be different from the rest. As the associate vice-presi-
dent for residential life at Notre Dame, Mr. Kirk publicly took a
stand against the university’s decision to award President Barack
Obama an honorary degree in 2009. Boycotting a graduation cere-
mony because a Democratic President is attending doesn’t sound
very nonpartisan to me.
We also know that as soon as President Trump took office, Mr.
Kirk left his nonpartisan job at the Environmental Protection
Agency’s IG office for a high-ranking political role at the Depart-
ment of Education. As we all know, the war President Trump has
waged on the Department of Education has been destructive to the
well-being of our nation’s students. In addition to being blatantly
illegal, the fact that Mr. Kirk jumped at the opportunity to help
President Trump destroy the Department of Education tells us a
lot about where his loyalties lie.
Inspectors general are supposed to be nonpartisan, independent.
It should never support one party’s agenda over another. I hope
that Mr. Kirk proves today that he will take this job seriously, not
simply do President Trump’s bidding. However, given his past and
what we know about the President’s other IG nominees, I have se-
rious concerns about this nomination.
So, I thank you Madam Chair. I look forward to the hearing.
CHAIR. Thank you, Ranking Member Markey. And next, I would
like to recognize Senator Hawley from Missouri to introduce our
nominee. And Senator Hawley, you are recognized.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY
Senator HAWLEY. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It’s my
honor this afternoon to introduce my friend, William Kirk, or Bill,
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as most of us know him. I’m glad that President Trump made the
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very wise choice to nominate Bill as the Inspector General of the
Small Business Administration. And as you listen to him today, I’m
pretty sure that you’re going to agree.
Bill has devoted his career and considerable intellect to public
service. He’s proven his selfless dedication and oversight positions
by conducting investigations, and while counseling leaders in fed-
eral agency exactly the right set of skills for the Inspector General
post. You’ll see his credentials.
Bill studied business and accountancy at the University of Notre
Dame, and then graduated from Notre Dame Law School. He then
spent more than two decades serving students in higher education
administration, before coming to DC to answer an even bigger call
to serve, or maybe it’s just a bigger challenge joining the Depart-
ment of Education. At DOE, he served as deputy general counsel
and later returned as the acting chief of staff at the Office of the
General Counsel, a job he still holds today.
He’s particularly well suited for an inspector general role because
of years of experience at the EPA where he served as deputy coun-
sel to the Inspector General, and then as acting counsel to the In-
spector General at both EPA and the Department of Education. Bill
did really exemplary work. He was fiercely independent, he was
honest, he was reliable. He guided audits and investigations with
a steady hand and a kind word. He focused on the law, not on ad-
vancing anybody’s political agenda.
And I think maybe most importantly, to my mind, Bill is a man
who’s rooted in his faith and in his family. He finds his identity
there, not in the praise of any politician or the temptation of any
job title. And that’s exactly the kind of foundation we need in an
inspector general.
His character, I suspect, goes back to his early days. He grew up
in New York in a household of six other siblings where he quickly
learned duty, integrity, honesty, commitment. And it’s because of
those values that Bill now enjoys living in University Park, Mary-
land, with his wife, Elizabeth, who’s here with us today, and their
four kids.
I know the chairwoman already introduced them, but I’ll do it
one more time. Will, who’s 17. Ben, who’s 16. Alice who’s 15, and
Nicholas, better known as Nico, who is 10. Congratulations on get-
ting out of class today, Nico. [Laughter.]
They join him here in the audience, and I know they’re proud of
him, and they should be.
Let me just say that the role of Inspector General is so important
in any agency or a part of any government. I want to underscore
something the chair just said. The SBA oversees billions and bil-
lions of dollars, and you don’t have to look that far back to see how
important this is.
At the height of COVID, the government allotted to SBA and
spent over $1 trillion, about $1.2 trillion, through SBA. Boy, it’s im-
portant to have an Inspector General who is carefully tracking ev-
erything that the government has spent and providing account-
ability. I know that Bill Kirk has the character and the experience
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Bill, it’s an honor to have you here. It’s an honor to support your
nomination, and I hope that my colleagues on both sides of the
aisle will agree. Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR. Thank you, Senator Hawley. Mr. Kirk, if you would rise,
please. It is the tradition of our committee to swear in our nomi-
nees. Please raise your right hand and answer the following ques-
tions. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KIRK. I do.
CHAIR. Should you be confirmed as Inspector General of the
Small Business Administration, are you willing to appear and tes-
tify before any duly constituted Committee of Congress when re-
quested to do so?
Mr. KIRK. I am.
CHAIR. Are you willing to provide such information as requested
by any such committee?
Mr. KIRK. I am.
CHAIR. Thank you. And you may now go ahead and take your
seat briefly. I’d like to take a moment to explain our lighting sys-
tem. There are three lights in front of you. Green means go. Yellow
means you need to wrap it up, and red means the time is expired.
I ask unanimous consent that the nominee’s full statement be in-
cluded in the record. Without objection, so ordered. As your written
testimony has been made part of the record, the committee asks
that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes.
Mr. KIRK, you are now recognized for five minutes for your testi-
mony.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM KIRK, NOMINEE FOR INSPECTOR
GENERAL OF THE U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
Mr. KIRK. Good afternoon, Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Mar-
key, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for
the opportunity to appear before you today as President Trump’s
nominee for Inspector General of the U.S. Small Business Adminis-
tration.
I am deeply honored and humbled by this nomination, and I
thank President Trump for his expression of confidence in me. I ap-
proach this opportunity to serve with a profound sense of gratitude.
I thank God for the gift that is my Catholic faith that leads me to
love, honor, and serve him in this world with the hope of being
with him in the next.
I want to thank and honor my departed parents, Walter and
Alice Kirk, who were tirelessly devoted to raising their seven chil-
dren to be faithful, generous, productive, and patriotic members of
society. I also thank my siblings and their families, my in-laws, Pat
and Alice Rhea, and my friends and colleagues, for their unwaver-
ing support and encouragement throughout my life.
Finally, I am blessed beyond measure and grateful to my wife,
Elizabeth, for her love and support, and the sacrifices she makes
for me and our four children; Will, Ben, Alice, and Nicholas, all of
whom are here today.
President Trump has made clear his unwavering commitment to
fighting fraud, waste, and abuse in the federal government. I look
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forward to joining this fight by applying my practical business and
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executive management experience to leading the SBA’s office of the
Inspector General.
My first job upon graduating from the University of Notre Dame
with a degree in accountancy was with the internationally re-
nowned accounting firm, then known as Price Waterhouse, where
I was a staff auditor and then senior consultant.
Working essentially full-time during law school, I was hired upon
graduation by Notre Dame to serve as an assistant and then asso-
ciate vice-president of the university with responsibility for super-
vising and managing three major departments: the disciplinary of-
fice, holding students to meaningful accountability for violating
university rules and regulations; the extensive housing and resi-
dence hall system, widely regarded to be among the most success-
ful and distinctive such programs in the country; and the Univer-
sity Police Department, where I oversaw and partnered with scores
of sworn law enforcement officers, investigators, detectives, and se-
curity personnel.
I had a similar and expanded role at a faithful Catholic univer-
sity, Ave Maria University in Florida, where I also managed their
extensive real estate investments, serving as the vice-president for
legal affairs and as the university’s chief compliance officer. I’ve
been privileged to provide leadership and operational supervision
for multiple departments in a global forensic engineering, architec-
ture and material sciences consulting firm, and to lead a founda-
tion that provided scholarship assistance to elementary and sec-
ondary schools in Kansas.
With several partners, I worked on the development of a model
of sustainable private equity financing intended to provide patient
capital to foster the long-term stability of small and mid-sized busi-
nesses who were committed to ethical practices and upholding the
dignity of their workers. I’ve been privileged to be a public servant,
first with the Department of Education as Deputy General Counsel,
and then, with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s Office
of the Inspector General, providing counsel to the Inspector Gen-
eral.
In these roles, I administratively supported and provided inde-
pendent legal and policy advice to the IG and the various compo-
nent offices of the IG. I’m currently on detail from the EPA OIG
to assist the General Counsel’s Office of the Department of Edu-
cation as the acting chief of staff to the Acting General Counsel.
My professional record demonstrates my integrity and the skills,
knowledge, judgment, and demeanor required of an inspector gen-
eral. As the nominee designate for the SBA, I am committed to up-
holding the values that make our nation strong, and look forward
to the opportunity to serve my country, and in particular, the 36
million small businesses that are the lifeblood of our economy.
Should I be confirmed, I will maintain a steadfast commitment
to fairness and objectivity, ensuring that all investigations and au-
dits are conducted without prejudice, bias, or political favor. I am
committed to ensuring fairness, accountability, and opportunity for
all. I will uphold the law, and I pledge to execute the responsibil-
ities of the Inspector General with impartiality and objectivity,
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fully complying with the Inspector General Act.
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I assure this committee that my work will be nonpartisan, driven
solely by facts in the pursuit of truth, to ensure the Small Business
Administration operates with integrity and efficiency. If confirmed,
I will work tirelessly to root out fraud, waste, and abuse, and to
promote transparency, accountability, and the success of America’s
small businesses.
If I may say in a departure from my prepared remarks, how im-
portant it’s for the IG to ensure and to help small businesses that
need to recover from disasters like Hurricanes Helene and Milton,
and the California wildfires. I’m committed to maintaining a cor-
dial and productive working relationship with this committee, with
the Congress as a whole, and with the Administrator, while also
demonstrating the independence, both in fact and in appearance,
that is so essential to the role of the Inspector General.
Finally, I want to thank, again, President Trump for the invita-
tion to assist him in ensuring that our government serves the
American people.
Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Kirk follows.]
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CHAIR. Thank you, Mr. Kirk. And to your family, again, thank
you for being here today.
As you know, I serve as the chair of the Senate Inspector Gen-
eral Caucus, and throughout my career, I have made it a top pri-
ority to root out waste, fraud, and abuse. That is why maintaining
an ongoing dialogue with the OIG’s office is one of my central con-
cerns.
Will you commit to engaging with Congress and working with me
to ensure that tax dollars are not wasted?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. Yes, I will abso-
lutely commit to working with the Congress, with this committee,
to do all that I can to help root out fraud, waste, and abuse. It’ll
be my honor to do so.
CHAIR. That was a great answer. What are your top priorities in
this particular role? What is your plan for aligning this with your
statutory responsibilities required by Congress?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator. As you know, the role of an In-
spector General as provided by the Inspector General Act, is to con-
duct and supervise audits and investigations. And I’m committed
to ensuring that we can reduce waste, fraud, and bloat in the IG
itself and in government contracts.
I look forward to optimizing the budget of the IG and the SBA
through administrative efficiency. I think as the committee has
shared with me their concern about our investigative abilities, I
want to ensure that we modernize the intake, reduce the backlog
in that area, and ensure that we have data analytics available to
us to ensure that investigations are conducted so that we can root
out fraud, waste, and abuse.
CHAIR. Oh, thank you. And you talked extensively about inves-
tigations, and as you know, the SBA IG’s office has estimated there
is over $200 billion in suspected COVID fraud, and the IG has said
that they had over 100,000 leads on fraud cases. I understand that
SBA OIG investigators may not have as many cases on their dock-
ets as other OIGs, but the SBA OIG consistently asks for addi-
tional funding.
Will you commit to reviewing the caseloads to maximize fraud re-
covery?
Mr. KIRK. Absolutely, Senator. Thank you for that question. I am
committed, as I said, to ensuring we have efficient operation of the
investigative arm. I look forward to understanding that area better
as soon as I get into the role. The audit and investigation role is
critically important for the Inspector General, and we need to be
as efficient as possible in ensuring we provide the services.
CHAIR. Thank you. A key concern I have had over the past couple
of years involves the SBA OIG’s handling of disaster investigations,
and you mentioned these in your opening remarks. I am dis-
appointed in the lack of progress in supporting rural communities.
Additionally, I believe the office has not shown sufficient commit-
ment to finding and remedying the root causes of recent disaster
relief shortfalls.
If appointed, will you commit to a full investigation of the SBA’s
handling of disaster relief, including the causes of the recent fund-
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ing shortfall?
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Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator. The funding shortfall was a tragic
situation. The opportunity or one of the primary pillars of the role
of the SBA is to provide capital for small businesses, counseling,
contracting opportunities, and disaster relief. And that the SBA
was unable to do so because of a funding shortfall is truly a serious
situation.
I’m committed to ensuring to assist the department in ensuring
that that does not happen again, to ensure that rural and under-
served areas are fully provided the services of the SBA.
CHAIR. Thank you. I know it caught so many of us off guard, and
certainly as the ranking member at that time, I would’ve thought
I would’ve been notified about a funding shortfall. We were not
aware of it. So, I appreciate you and your concern about that issue.
That will conclude my questions. For now, we will go to Ranking
Member Markey, who is recognized for five minutes.
Senator MARKEY. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Kirk, when you
came to speak with the committee staff, you said that your job will
be to oversee the Small Business Administration by adhering to the
law, and as you put it, ‘‘To call balls and strikes.’’ And I whole-
heartedly agree with that description.
The IG is supposed to be neutral and independent, like an um-
pire, and not invent his or her own strike zone. With that in mind,
I’d like to ask you about your views on a couple of pitches from the
Trump Administration. As you know, President Trump fired Mike
Ware, the previous Inspector General at SBA, along with a dozen
other inspectors general across government late on a Friday night
back in January of this year.
When the President failed to provide any notification or justifica-
tion to Congress, did he comply with Section 3 of the Inspector
General Act of 1978? And I will read that to you since you might
not have that law in front of you. So, let me read you the text of
the Inspector General Act of 1978.
‘‘If an Inspector General is removed from office—’’ we’re talking
about Mr. Ware now, ‘‘or is transferred to another position, the
President shall communicate in writing the substantive rationale,
including detailed and case specific reasons for any such removal
or transfer to both houses of Congress not later than 30 days before
the removal or transfer.’’
Do you think that the President complied with the law?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Ranking Member Markey. That is a mat-
ter that I understand is currently involved in litigation, and as
such, it would be inappropriate for me to respond further.
Senator MARKEY. All right. Well, let me move on. You previously
worked for the former Environmental Protection Agency Inspector
General, Sean O’Donnell, who was also purged by the President in
January of this year. Do you think that President Trump had a le-
gitimate reason to fire him, and do you think he was fired lawfully?
Mr. KIRK. Again, Senator, thank you for the question. As I men-
tioned, these are matters that are currently involved in pending
litigation, and as such, it would be inappropriate for me to respond
to them to offer any more information on them.
Senator MARKEY. Well, you worked for Mr. O’Donnell for three
years, and surely you must know his work. The President was re-
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quired to provide a substantive rationale for his dismissal. He did
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not do that. So, you don’t have a view on whether or not, just the
technical aspects of it, the notification was in fact fulfilled.
Mr. KIRK. Again, thank you, Senator, for the question. As I men-
tioned, the matter is pending in litigation, and as such, it would
be inappropriate for me to respond further to it.
Senator MARKEY. Well, again, that’s very troubling to me because
we clearly have multiple issues that have to be dealt with in a way
that does reflect the law as it has been written and should in fact
be carried out.
Let me move on to a question of whether or not you intend on
looking at the role which DOGE has played in the SBA since Janu-
ary of this year to determine whether or not they have been com-
plying with the law.
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator. I’m sorry, I wasn’t sure if there
was a question.
Senator MARKEY. Yes, there is. There’s a question. DOGE has
been inside of the administration for the last six months. Are you
going to be looking at the role which DOGE has played?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. I’m committed
to addressing concerns that you have and the concerns of this com-
mittee that might come up.
Senator MARKEY. You were detailed to the Department of Edu-
cation this March and have been serving in a high-level political
position since that time, chief of staff to the General Counsel. Back
in March, President Trump proposed moving the $1.6 trillion stu-
dent loan portfolio to SBA. Putting aside how disastrous that would
be for millions of student borrowers across the country, do you be-
lieve that move could have been legal without Congressional au-
thorization?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. I came, as you
mentioned, to the Department of Education back in March, and the
intention was to, I believe, capitalize on my administrative and
management experience. Many of those decisions were made prior
to my arrival there, and I’ve been responsible within the OGC’s of-
fice for administering the office, helping redesign workflows, et
cetera. So, that’s about all I can share with you on that question.
Senator MARKEY. Do you believe it’s lawful for the President to
‘‘wind down’’ the Department of Education as an agency that Con-
gress has authorized and has appropriated funding for without get-
ting authorization from Congress?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator. As I mentioned, I look forward to
this role as the Inspector General, and in that role, I am committed
to conducting and supervising audits and investigations. I don’t be-
lieve that my opinions on those matters really are relevant to the
work that I would be doing as the Inspector General.
Senator MARKEY. And just to confirm, are you saying now under
oath that you did not author, review, comment on, or edit any
memos, policy documents, proposals of legal guidance related to
this administration’s efforts to wind down the Department of Edu-
cation?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. No, I am not
aware of any role that I had in any of those decisions. As I men-
tioned, I came in March of this year, and many of those decisions,
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I believe, were made prior to that time.
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Senator MARKEY. Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR. Thank you, Ranking Member. And we will turn now to
Senator Husted for five minutes of questioning.
Senator HUSTED. Thank you, Chair. Mr. Kirk, thank you for join-
ing us today. Welcome, to your family.
Mr. KIRK. Thank you.
Senator HUSTED. I want to touch on something that President
Trump did in his first term. December of 2020, he issued Executive
Order 13960 that authorized the use of artificial intelligence to look
into SBA loan procedures. It was really a detection tool to look at
systemic fraud that was potentially being used to steal money from
the federal government through the pandemic Paycheck Protection
Program and the Economic Injury Disaster Loan Program.
We’ve now discovered, I believe, $200 billion in fraudulent pay-
ments came from that process. I want to put this in context, $200
billion. That’s enough to pay for the grocery bill of 20 million fami-
lies for an entire year. It’s enough money to buy a new car for ev-
eryone in Ohio and Michigan combined. It’s enough to buy a new
home for families in San Francisco and Boston. It’s an incredible
amount of money.
The SBA didn’t use the tools at their disposal to track down
fraud, and I would like your reaction to that, and to understand
what your commitment is to using every technology tool we have
available to us to track down fraud and abuse in the system to re-
assure the American public that government actually works for
them.
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. You raised such
an important issue; the use of technology in rooting out fraud,
waste, and abuse. And I think the opportunity to do so is, as you
described, a tremendous opportunity.
What we can do is leverage the technology to ensure that our in-
vestigations are conducted efficiently. We have these tools available
to us, and in with constricted resources and the availability of this
technology, we can make absolutely wonderful use of it to root out
fraud, waste, and abuse.
Senator HUSTED. And I want to just make sure I heard you cor-
rectly. And we have your commitment that you’re going to com-
mand that the agency does this?
Mr. KIRK. I am committed, Senator, yes, to ensure that the agen-
cy and the OIG use every technological means at their disposal to
appropriately root out fraud, waste, and abuse. I’m committed to
that.
Senator HUSTED. Great. I would hope that we could have you
back some time to hear about your success stories of how we’ve,
hopefully, prevented the fraud, and hopefully, for those who maybe
have perpetrated the fraud, that we’ve caught them, that we’ve
prosecuted them, and that they will—I’m sure they will all be
watching this hearing today to know that they shouldn’t do it be-
cause we’re going to catch them and we’re going to prosecute them.
Is that correct?
Mr. KIRK. Yes. Thank you, Senator. I would look forward to that
opportunity. I look forward to bringing very good news to you in
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Senator HUSTED. Great. Thanks, Madam Chair. I yield back my
time.
CHAIR. Thank you. Now, we’ll recognize Senator Hirono of Ha-
waii.
Senator HIRONO. Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome, Mr. Kirk.
Mr. KIRK. Thank you.
Senator HIRONO. To determine the fitness to serve of any of the
nominees that come before any of my committees, I ask the fol-
lowing two initial questions. Since you became a legal adult, have
you ever made unwanted requests for sexual favors, or committed
any verbal or physical harassment, or assault of a sexual nature?
Mr. KIRK. I have not.
Senator HIRONO. Have you ever faced discipline or injured into
a settlement relating to this kind of conduct?
Mr. KIRK. I have not.
Senator HIRONO. Mr. Kirk, you were just asked about a $200
million in fraud as part of the PPP and some other federal pro-
grams during COVID. Now, you do know that this $200 million is
not a set figure. It was something that your predecessor noted in
a report and suggested that the IG investigate. So, you responded
as though that was a set figure. It’s just the potential.
So, should you be confirmed, are you going to investigate and as-
certain now how much in waste and fraud actually occurred during
COVID?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. Whatever
amount of fraud has occurred, it’s too much. If there is a $200 bil-
lion—the amount of the fraud is absolutely of grave concern to me
and is to the American people.
Senator HIRONO. So, you intend to investigate, should you be
confirmed? You would investigate and with fairness, because that’s
what you said, right? You’re going to be fair. You’re going to—no
political access to grind?
Mr. KIRK. Absolutely. Thank you, Senator. I am committed to un-
wavering adherence to principles of independence and objectivity in
conducting the audits and investigations. I will maintain absolute
neutrality and oversight operations.
Senator HIRONO. I’m sorry, what did you say? You would?
Mr. KIRK. I said I will maintain absolute neutrality.
Senator HIRONO. So, let us confirm then that you consider the IG
Office to be independent of SBA leadership and/or the President.
You’ll be totally independent?
Mr. KIRK. Yes. As I mentioned, the Inspector General reports
both to the Administrator and to the Congress under the Inspector
General statute. But it is an independent entity. And it is my in-
tention to maintain, as I mentioned, neutrality, and complete inde-
pendence, and non-partisan.
Senator HIRONO. So, the reason I ask these questions is because
it is very clear that President Trump’s likes to nominate people
who will be 100 percent loyal to him. Not necessary to the IG stat-
ute or anybody else, but loyalty to him. So, I want to be very clear
that your loyalty is to the Constitution and to doing your job in an
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independent, non-political, fair way.
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Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. I’m absolutely
committed to upholding the law, and providing a completely inde-
pendent and objective role.
Senator HIRONO. Okay. I don’t mean to rush you, but you know,
I don’t have that much time. So, when you talk about upholding
the law, we have a President who believes that whatever he does
is legal. Would that be your perspective? That whatever he does is
legal?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator. As I mentioned, I will uphold the
law. I will be completely objective in my application of the law to
the facts that are presented to me——
Senator HIRONO. Okay. But who determines——
Mr. KIRK [continuing]. And I’m committed to unwavering adher-
ence to principles of independence.
Senator HIRONO [continuing]. Whether what he does is legal? Be-
cause you have a President who believes everything he does is
legal. Is that who you would follow as far as the legality of any-
thing that is happening or not, or would you be independent of his
attitude——
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator——
Senator HIRONO. Whether what he’s doing is legal or not?
Mr. KIRK. I will absolutely uphold the law. That is what——
Senator HIRONO. Okay. So, that is not very sufficient when you
have a President who says he is the law. So, let me ask you this
way. Do you believe that the rule of law should apply to the Presi-
dent?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. The rule of law
applies to all citizens, and I will uphold the law in my role as an
inspector general.
Senator HIRONO. And so, you are saying that the rule of law
should apply to the President?
Mr. KIRK. Senator, as I mentioned, the rule of law applies to all
American citizens.
Senator HIRONO. You don’t want to use the word President. Is
there some reason that this—you can’t say, including the President
of the United States?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator. The rule of law applies to all of
us.
Senator HIRONO. I think it’s very unusual that you can’t say that
it applies to the President, which makes me wonder—you know, so
what can I say? When you are being nominated by a President who
believes that the rule of law does not apply to him, and who de-
mands pretty much 100 percent loyalty.
Now, you were asked some questions about—I’m just curious to
know whether or not you will come to your position, should you be
confirmed, in a fair way. So, for example, do you think that the
elimination of the Department of Education is legal without Con-
gressional action?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator for the question. It is the role of
the Inspector General, as I said, to conduct these audits and inves-
tigations. A hypothetical such as you’ve mentioned, is not some-
thing that I feel is——
Senator HIRONO. No, it’s actually not a hypothetical question, be-
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cause that’s what he wants to do. And he fired practically half of
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the staff of the Department of Education. Do you think that’s legal?
Because you were the—you worked for the Education Department
prior. Do you think that’s legal?
Mr. KIRK. As I said, Senator, I worked at the Department of
Education in administrative and management roles, and I was re-
sponsible for assisting the general counsel in administering the of-
fice. I helped redesign workflows. I did the work——
Senator HIRONO. You had nothing to do then with the intention
any discussion relating to the elimination of the Department of
Education without—by executive order or the firing of half of the
people in ED. See, you also refuse to answer certain questions be-
cause it’s pending litigation.
CHAIR. If the Senator could wrap the question.
Senator HIRONO. There are over 200 lawsuits involved, chal-
lenging what the President wants to do, that doesn’t mean that
we’re going to get a lot of answers from you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIR. Okay. Next, we—if there are any other questions? Sen-
ator Markey, do you have additional questions? Okay. We’ll go to
a second round of questions, and we’ll start with Ranking Member
Markey.
Senator MARKEY. Thank you, Madam Chair. You previously
worked at the EPA’s Inspector General’s Office. You told my staff
that you didn’t participate in audits or investigations there, and
only checked reports for legal sufficiency. Do you have any experi-
ence conducting audits or investigations from your prior work?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator for the question. I have been in-
volved in oversight work in various forms for literally decades. I
began my career as an auditor and accounting staff member, as I
mentioned, the international accounting and auditing firm of Price
Waterhouse. So, yes, I do have some experience.
Senator MARKEY. Are you familiar with SBA’s programs?
Mr. KIRK. I’m not currently at the SBA, but yes, I’ve tried to fa-
miliarize myself with the programs at the SBA.
Senator MARKEY. Are you familiar with the Paycheck Protection
Program, or PPP?
Mr. KIRK. I am familiar with the Paycheck Protection Program.
Senator MARKEY. Are you familiar with the PPP’s affiliation re-
quirements for not-for-profits?
Mr. KIRK. I am not completely familiar with that. I’m familiar,
as I said, generally with the program and the way that it was im-
plemented to try to assist small businesses suffering from the pan-
demic.
Senator MARKEY. Are you familiar with your predecessor’s deter-
mination that Planned Parenthood met the PPP’s affiliation re-
quirements, and that it was entitled to forgiveness?
Mr. KIRK. I am aware of that, yes.
Senator MARKEY. Do you agree with that decision?
Mr. KIRK. Senator, thank you for the question. I don’t know
enough about that matter. I have not read the report involved in
that regard. I really don’t have an opinion on that one way or the
other.
Senator MARKEY. Well, since you’ve committed to calling balls
and strikes as you assess SBA’s compliance with the law, I hope
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you will commit to upholding this clear reading of the PPP forgive-
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ness rules and not engage in politically motivated attacks at
Planned Parenthood. Given your boycotting of President Obama’s
Commencement Speech at Notre Dame, you can imagine how con-
cerned people might be with regard to some pre-existing bias you
might bring towards Planned Parenthood. Could you speak to that
issue?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator for the question. As I mentioned,
I am absolutely committed to serving as an independent, objective,
and neutral, nonpartisan inspector general. That is my role. That’s
what I look forward to doing. My personal beliefs really are not rel-
evant to whether or not any particular organization would fit that
criteria.
Senator MARKEY. And again, I’m just asking if what weight you
would give to your predecessor’s determination that Planned Par-
enthood was entitled to those benefits?
Mr. KIRK. Senator, I’m sorry. I don’t understand the question.
Senator MARKEY. The point that I made earlier was that your
predecessor in this position in fact determined that Planned Par-
enthood met the PPP’s affiliation requirements, and that it was en-
titled to forgiveness. What weight are you going to give to your own
predecessor’s determination on that matter?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator. As I am charged with, if I am
privileged to take on the role, to conduct and supervise audits and
investigations. I would consider all the information available to me,
including the information that was previously provided, and cur-
rent audit and investigation work.
Senator MARKEY. Right. Well, you can imagine that we’re con-
cerned about bias that you might bring to that decision, especially
since it would upset the precedent that had already been estab-
lished by your predecessor in the agency. So, let me let me yield
back, Madam Chair.
CHAIR. Thank you, Ranking Member Markey. And next, we’ll go
to Senator Schiff of California. Five minutes.
Senator SCHIFF. Thank you, Madam Chair. And let me just say
apropos, Mr. Kirk, of your last name, how horrified I was to see
reports that Charlie Kirk had been shot at an event today.
Mr. KIRK. Oh, my goodness.
Senator SCHIFF. It’s just awful. The increasing degree of political
violence in this country is a threat to everyone.
I want to ask you, Mr. Kirk, about the firing of the other Inspec-
tor Generals. If you would, to have this position, it’s obviously vi-
tally important that you’d be independent, that you apply the law
as it’s written, that you’d be willing to confront anyone in the exec-
utive or any other branch of government if they’re acting in a way
that is wasteful, abusive, or illegal. That requires you to be able
to speak truth to power.
And so, let me begin by your understanding of the law as it ap-
plies to Inspector Generals. What is your understanding of the law?
What does the law require before President could fire you if you be-
came Inspector General?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator, for the question. I appreciate your
acknowledgement of the role of the Inspector General is being ob-
jective and independent, and I’m absolutely committed to objec-
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As I mentioned previously, the matter of the termination of the
roles of the other inspector generals is a matter of currently pend-
ing in litigation. I think it’s inappropriate for me to speak to that
matter.
Senator SCHIFF. Well, I don’t agree. I think it’s very appropriate
and necessary to speak to this. We need, among other things, some
assurance that an Inspector General will apply the law as written,
not apply the law as the executive would like it to have been writ-
ten or would like it to be.
As that law is on the books, as the Supreme Court has not some-
how found that law unconstitutional, it is the law of the land. I
think it is also a deeply important law how Mr. Kirk if even a law
that requires cause or notice is not to be enforced, how can you
have any confidence that should you find the administration en-
gaged in some kind of misconduct, that you won’t simply be fired
as a result of making any findings?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator for the question. As I mentioned,
I’m absolutely committed to unwavering adherence to the prin-
ciples of independence and objectivity. And I will conduct audits
and investigations, and report findings consistent with that obliga-
tion to be completely independent.
Senator SCHIFF. We had a hearing last week with members of
the board of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. And I asked
them, the three members of the board, including the chair, ‘‘Are
you confident that if you were to decide a nuclear reactor was un-
safe or design for new reactor was unsafe, and you said so, are you
confident that you would not be fired? Can you be confident you
could make that decision and still hold your position?’’
And the first two commissioners said, well, candidly, no, I
couldn’t be confident that I would not be fired. And the chairman
basically said, ‘‘I’m going to make the right decision on the merits,
whatever happens. But it would be speculative what would happen
should I make that decision.’’
And the problem with it being speculative is it shouldn’t be spec-
ulative. You should know that if you do your job, regardless of how
you’re finding cuts, that you’re not going to be fired as a result,
that there’s some safeguard in law, or in practice, or both, ideally,
that will insulate you. Otherwise, you’re always going to be looking
over your shoulder.
I understand your reluctance to answer the question here.
There’s no reason you can’t, but I understand your reluctance. But
if you’re unwilling to answer a question like that before confirma-
tion, I don’t know how you’re going to answer that question after
confirmation.
And this is the challenge we have. It’s not a reflection on your
background, but is reflection on this moment, and the need now
more than ever, I believe, to have inspector generals that are will-
ing to say it like it is even if it displeases people in the Congress,
or the administration, or anywhere else.
Madam Chair, I yield back.
CHAIR. Okay. Seeing no other—oh, excuse me. Senator
Hickenlooper, you are recognized for five minutes.
Senator HICKENLOOPER. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you,
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Mr. Kirk, for your time. You know, in the last few years, the SBA
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has faced real complex issues in terms of fraud and abuse. I think
Americans are counting on us to make sure that tax revenues, tax
money is spent appropriately. That frauds are held accountable.
Much of your time in Higher Ed, or your roles in Higher Ed, don’t
appear to be primarily legal, and you transitioned to government
in 2020.
Can you describe your experience in terms of conducting large
complex audits or investigations, and how that experience could
prepare you to lead the SBA Inspector General’s office?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you very much, Senator, for the question. The
role of the Inspector General and that person in particular is to su-
pervise and conduct audits and investigations to provide the lead-
ership and coordination necessary to recommend the policies. This
is all from the Inspector General Act, and so a particular individ-
ual’s experience in the sub, in the detailed and substantive roles
is not necessary.
And what I bring to this role is more than three decades of ad-
ministrative management and leadership experience in areas re-
lated to that. I served in a role oversight of student disciplinary
processes at Notre Dame, the police department, and the housing
offices. These were matters that these were situations that re-
quired executive management and leadership to ensure that the
that the work was performed appropriately.
And I feel very confident that I’m able to do that, to supervise
and manage the oversight work of the Inspector General’s Office.
Senator HICKENLOOPER. So, in terms of the SBA Inspector Gen-
eral, what kinds of fraud and abuse are you most concerned with?
Mr. KIRK. At the SBA, I am very concerned with the kind of
fraud that occurred in connection with the 8(a) Program, the recent
USAID hundreds of millions of dollars lost to fraud because of brib-
ery by officials. I am concerned to ensure that the disaster aid is
appropriately distributed to underserved and rural communities.
That’s an area that I’m very concerned about. The efficiency there,
and make sure that that aid gets out.
I’m very concerned that given all of the focus on the PPP pro-
gram over the last couple of years, that the flagship programs, the
7(a), 8(a) Programs have the oversight that’s required to ensure
that they stay ready and available to assist small businesses.
Senator HICKENLOOPER. Right. How do you look at some of the
issues within the SBA where there’s been some contestation on
some of the awards that have been frozen and held back without—
actually, in other words, people had qualified for some of the pro-
grams and were told they were going to get funding, but that fund-
ing has never materialized. Have you got a way of approaching
those situations?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator. I certainly, since I’m not in the
role currently, would need more information to understand what
the actual issues are that you’re referring to. But if an entity is
qualified to receive, it would be important for the Inspector General
to try to determine, to ensure that the award was made.
Senator MARKEY. Okay. Great. I yield back to the Chair. Thank
you.
CHAIR. Thank you, Senator Hickenlooper. And one more follow-
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Senator MARKEY. Recently, Wired magazine reported that
unvetted DOGE operatives gained wide-ranging access to SBA’s in-
formation systems containing the private personal information of
small business owners and Americans across the country.
Now, as you know, these small business people, they’re putting
up their life savings. They’re giving access to the federal govern-
ment to this relatively small amount of money, which they have to
take this big risk on their small business. And they’re handing it
over to the Small Business Administration with the promise that
the information will remain confidential, that no one will ever have
access to it.
It’s about the most private information that an individual has.
It’s their net wealth. It’s everything they’ve worked for. And in
many instances, it’s the spouse along with the husband who’s put-
ting up their money for that small business.
So, if what Wired magazine has reported is accurate, and that
evidence is there, should the SBA’s Inspector General investigate
DOGE’s activities if there is reasonable evidence that the privacy
of those financial documents of millions of small businesses has
been compromised? Would that be the responsibility of the Inspec-
tor General of the Small Business Administration?
Mr. KIRK. Thank you, Senator Markey, for the question. The pri-
vacy and security of information that our small businesses share
with the SBA for the purposes of eligibility for the programs is
critically important information. And it is imperative that all folks,
all the department officials that may have access to it are trained
and properly handle that information.
Any allegations or violations of those standards would be matters
that the Inspector General’s Office would appropriately look at.
And with the appropriate facts that come to my attention, I will
work with my staff to ensure that facts are applied against the cri-
teria involved and make determinations.
Senator MARKEY. I think that’s going to be a very important
thing for you to do because I think Wired has a pretty documented
case that has been made that that information has been com-
promised. Thank you, Madam Chair.
CHAIR. Thank you, Ranking Member Markey. And thank you,
Mr. Kirk, for being with us today, and for your willingness to serve.
We are going to leave the record open for two days until 5:00
p.m. on Friday, September 12th, for members to submit questions
for the record. And we will keep the record open for two weeks to
edit statements, and submit letters and any other relevant mate-
rials.
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CHAIR. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Kirk, we would appreciate your prompt response to any
questions submitted for the record. We do require your responses
prior to advancing your nomination out of committee. And with
that, the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
stands adjourned. Thank you very much.
[Whereupon, at 3:25 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
Æ
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-119shrg61658.txt
- Size
- 142,684 bytes
- SHA-256
- ea8a10b95d936ca16e4215ac2b2566415fe97535729122644b751845ac3f6cd9
- Our copy
- CHRG-119shrg61658.txt
- Original
- No public link identified.