Crime on the Rise: How Lawlessness Is Impacting Main Street America
Summary
The printed record of the House Committee on Small Business hearing of January 11, 2024 on crime, Small Business Committee Document Number 118-034. Chairman Roger Williams cites a New York Times report that 327 people in New York City were collectively arrested over 6,000 times for shoplifting, and research that theft cost the retail industry over $112 billion in 2022. Williams also says attacks on Jewish people and businesses in the U.S. are up over 400 percent since early October. Ranking Member Nydia Velazquez says the latest FBI quarterly report shows steep drops in violent crime and that retail crime is dropping in most of the country. Three witnesses testify on behalf of StopAntisemitism, the National Restaurant Association and the City of Norwich Police Department; the fourth is a Senior Fellow and Director at NORC at the University of Chicago.
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Full text
[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
CRIME ON THE RISE: HOW LAWLESSNESS IS IMPACTING MAIN STREET AMERICA
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD
JANUARY 11, 2024
__________
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Small Business Committee Document Number 118-034
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
_______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
54-516 WASHINGTON : 2024
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TRACEY MANN, Kansas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARC MOLINARO, New York
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
ELI CRANE, Arizona
AARON BEAN, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
NICK LALOTA, New York
CELESTE MALOY, Utah
NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
JARED GOLDEN, Maine
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ, Washington
SHRI THANEDAR, Michigan
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
JUDY CHU, California
SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
Ben Johnson, Majority Staff Director
Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams.............................................. 1
Hon. Nydia Velazquez............................................. 3
WITNESSES
Ms. Liora Rez, Executive Director, StopAntisemitism, testifying
on behalf of StopAntisemitism.................................. 6
Mr. Gerald Scott, President and Chief Executive Officer, Elmer's
Restaurants, Inc., Vancouver, WA, testifying on behalf of
National Restaurant Association................................ 8
Chief Reuben J. Roach, Chief of Police, City of Norwich Police
Department, Norwich, NY, testifying on behalf of City of
Norwich Police Department...................................... 9
Dr. John Roman, Senior Fellow and Director, NORC at the
University of Chicago, Center on Public Safety and Justice,
Chicago, IL.................................................... 11
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Ms. Liora Rez, Executive Director, StopAntisemitism,
testifying on behalf of StopAntisemitism................... 42
Mr. Gerald Scott, President and Chief Executive Officer,
Elmer's Restaurants, Inc., Vancouver, WA, testifying on
behalf of National Restaurant Association.................. 45
Chief Reuben J. Roach, Chief of Police, City of Norwich
Police Department, Norwich, NY, testifying on behalf of
City of Norwich Police Department.......................... 48
Dr. John Roman, Senior Fellow and Director, NORC at the
University of Chicago, Center on Public Safety and Justice,
Chicago, IL................................................ 51
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
International Council of Shopping Centers (ICSC)............. 58
The National Association of Convenience Stores (NACS), NATSO,
Representing America's Travel Plazas and Truckstops, and
SIGMA: America's Leading Fuel Marketers.................... 60
Sheetz....................................................... 63
Vox.......................................................... 65
CRIME ON THE RISE: HOW LAWLESSNESS IS IMPACTING MAIN STREET AMERICA
----------
THURSDAY, JANUARY 11, 2024
House of Representatives,
Committee on Small Business,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams
[chairman of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van
Duyne, Salazar, Mann, Molinaro, Alford, Crane, Bean, LaLota,
Maloy, Velazquez, Golden, Mfume, Landsman, McGarvey,
Gluesenkamp Perez, Scholten, Thanedar, and Davids.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to
recognize Representative Molinaro to lead us in the pledge and
a prayer.
Mr. MOLINARO. If you would join me in prayer. We are
reading Second Corinthians, and God is able to bless you
abundantly so that in all things at all times having all that
you need, you will be abound in every good work.
Dear Lord, we come together today in a divided nation, men
and women, small businesses, farmers, families, struggling
hard. And we turn to you in persistent prayer seeking what we
need. Oftentimes we pray and ask what we want, but we know dear
Lord that you provide us what we need.
In a moment of time where our businesses struggle we ask
that you that give them what they need. In a moment of time
where our families and farmers and neighbors continue to
struggle, we ask that you to give us what we need. In a moment
where our nation is divided throughout all levels of
government, we ask that you give all those in leadership what
we need. We pray fervently for those men and women who serve in
sacrifice on behalf of this nation, and we pray, dear God, for
America. May you bless all who serve and may you bless the
United States, amen.
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of
America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation,
under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now call the Committee on Small
Business to order. And without objection, the Chair is
authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time.
I would like to take a moment to introduce the
subcommittees for our newest Member, Ms. Celeste Maloy, from
the great State of Utah who will join the Subcommittee on Rural
Development, Energy, And Supply Chains, as well as the
Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure. Welcome,
Congresswoman.
I ask unanimous consent that her addition to these
subcommittees be approved. And without objection, so ordered.
We are excited to have her on our team and look forward to her
contributions. I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
Good morning, and welcome to our first hearing of 2024.
Today we are going to focus on the negative impact of rampant
crime on small businesses and what can be done to address it.
First, I want to thank our witnesses for being with us today
and we know your time is valuable and we appreciate your
choosing it to spend with us.
On top of the economic challenges of inflation, supply
chain, disruptions and inability to find qualified workers,
small businesses are facing another issue that has grown worse
in the past few years, and I am speaking, of course, of out of
control crime. Crime deters potential customers from visiting
areas where they feel unsafe. And many of our nation's brick
and mortar stores are around casual foot traffic to survive.
Areas that do not have adequate public safety measures in place
are causing small businesses to think twice about investing in
them. In order to keep customers and employees safe, businesses
are being forced to hire private security services.
Unfortunately, many businesses are unable to pay for this
expense, but it shouldn't be necessary in the first place.
Unfortunately there are policy decisions making it harder for
small businesses to deal with this new challenge. For example,
last year, the mayor of Columbus, Ohio forced some small
business owners to close early to protect against crime.
Instead of focusing on the individuals committing the crimes,
the mayor decided to force the business owners to limit the
time of day they can work and earn a living. And this simply is
unacceptable.
Additionally, we are seeing many metropolitan institutes
institute cashless bail. This allows repeat offenders back on
the streets to continue to commit crimes. The New York Times
reported that in New York City, 327 people were collectively
arrested over 6,000 times for shoplifting. This accounted for
one-third of all shoplifting crimes in the city, which is
particularly detrimental to small business. This brings up a
larger issue that we are seeing across the country. Rather than
protecting the entrepreneurs that bet on themselves and take
risk to open a business, criminals are being protected. The
light-on-crime approach is allowing people to commit crimes
without fear of repercussions or prosecution. Over the last few
years there has been a rise in coordinated smash-and-grab
crimes.
To keep employees out of harm's way, many companies are
instituting policies to simply allow these acts to take place
and let the criminals go free. This not only creates an unsafe
work environment for employees, but also strains the resources
of law enforcement officers. In speaking with small businesses
as we prepared for this hearing, we heard some businesses that
have been told to stop calling the police to protect
shoplifting because the police don't have the capacity to stop
these small dollar crimes. This is extremely troubling, and
these small crimes quickly add up for small businesses.
Capital One shopping research reported that theft cost the
retail industry over $112 billion in 2022 alone. This is enough
to force many small businesses to shut their doors for good.
Even worse, and more evil and sinister form of crime has
been on the rise the last few months and that is anti-Semitic
hate crimes. After the attack on Israel the U.S. saw an
onslaught of anti-Semitic rhetoric. Since early October attacks
on Jewish people and businesses in the U.S. are up over 400
percent. All across the country Jewish business owners are
being sent hate mail, vandalized and attacked because of their
religious beliefs. And as elected officials, I hope we can all
stand together to call out these heinous actions.
Crime remains the top problem for many job creators across
the country. Main street should not feel like it is under siege
from criminals who have no fear of the law or consequences and
simply have absolutely no investment. Our nation's primary job
creators deserve better. They deserve to know when they open
their doors and when they can be open for business. They will
not come under attack by violent wrongdoers who are out to
destroy their livelihoods. Prosecutors need to prosecute, and
police need to be allowed to police their communities.
So before we continue, I ask unanimous consent to submit a
letter for the record discussing the negative consequences
crime has been having on their industries from the National
Association of Convenience Stores, the Society of Independent
Gasoline Marketers of America, and the National Association of
Truck Stop Operators. Without objection, so ordered.
So I would like to, again, thank all our witnesses for
being here with us. I look forward to today's discussion. And
it is my hope we can find some common ground as to how best to
help our nation's small businesses during this time.
So with that, I yield to our distinguished Ranking Member
from New York, Ms. Velazquez.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is no doubt
that small businesses are often the victims of crime all across
the country, whether it is small retailers being victims of
shoplifting, the local restaurant traumatized by hate crimes,
or the countless businesses on the front lines of our nation's
devastating gun violence epidemic.
The impact of crime on small firms can take many forms.
These acts can take a significant toll on small businesses,
their employees and their potential customer base.
Unfortunately, small businesses are often more vulnerable,
either lacking adequate security to deter criminals, or the
technical expertise to protect their information from
cybercrime.
I am certainly supportive of efforts to train business
owners on how to handle threats, and in law enforcement,
holding criminals accountable. Businesses should be able to
compete in a fair, competitive environment, and nobody should
feel unsafe going to work or to shop at their local stores.
I extend my deepest sympathy to those affected and
traumatized by senseless acts of crime and violence. However,
as policymakers, we must make our decisions based on complete
and accurate data. My concern is that when it comes to topics
like organized retail crime and shoplifting, a very real issue
is being politicized to upend good faith efforts like criminal
justice reform.
As we move forward from the era of mass incarceration and
broken windows policing, it is crucial we do not lose sight of
the very real negative impacts these policies had on low-income
communities and communities of color. I urge my colleagues not
to engage in knee-jerk reactions that set back our real
progress toward creating a more equitable criminal justice
system. Instead, with accurate data, swift action and
increasing the certainty that a crime will be caught, we can
make real progress at crime prevention.
Efforts to increase the punishments for certain crimes will
result in higher prison populations and disproportionate
effects on vulnerable communities.
With that said, I would be remiss if I did not point out
that crime is, in fact, not on the rise. The most recent
quarterly report from the FBI shows steep drops in both violent
and poverty crime nationally. Larceny theft is almost uniformly
dropping across the country, and homicides are showing one of
the largest drops on record. Yet, when it comes to retail
theft, overall shrink has held steady in recent years and
retail crime is actually dropping in most of the country. This
is not to say this isn't a problem--and criminals should
absolutely be prosecuted. However, proposals to change laws
should be made based on accurate and complete data.
Lastly, one thing I think we can all agree on is that the
rise in hate crimes and harassment directed toward minority-
owned businesses is unacceptable. Whether it is to our Jewish-
or Muslim-owned businesses resulting from the war in Gaza or
Asian-owned businesses in the aftermath of the pandemic--hate
crimes directed toward business owners should be rooted out at
all levels.
I am open to working with my colleagues on this committee
to address hate crimes directed at businesses, whether it is
motivated by race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation or
gender identity. I hope we can engage in an honest, open and
reasonable dialogue on ways to combat crime that is affecting
small businesses.
With that, I ask unanimous consent that this article from
Vox, ``The Shoplifting Scare Might Not Have Been Real But Its
Effects Are'' into the record.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yeah.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. I would like to thank all of the witnesses
for joining us today, and I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And now we will move to the introduction of the witnesses.
I now recognize my colleague, Representative LaLota, to briefly
introduce the first witness appearing before us today.
Mr. LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is my honor to introduce Ms. Liora Rez, the executive
director of StopAntisemitism, a grassroots watchdog
organization that publicly exposes anti-Semitic behavior. A
refugee from the former Soviet Union where anti-Semitism was
rampant, Ms. Rez is all too familiar with its dangers.
Using her decade of experience in digital marketing, Ms.
Rez has harnessed the power of social media to create a network
of activists who identify and expose anti-Semites.
Since its founding in 2018, StopAntisemitism's reach has
expanded to millions of people. Ms. Rez graduated from Brandeis
University with a Bachelor of Science in neuroscience, and then
went on to receive her executive master's of business
administration from Case Western Reserve University.
Mr. Chairman, the United States is a proud nation founded
upon religious freedom. And with what is going on in the world
today, post October 7 especially, it is important that we
confront anti-Semitism and religious intolerance. And so we
welcome you, Ms. Rez. And we thank you for joining us today. We
look forward to having that conversation.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And the next witness here with us today is Mr. Gerry Scott.
Mr. Scott is the president and CEO of Elmer's Restaurants
located in Medford, Oregon. Elmer's Restaurants is a franchisor
and operator of over 20 restaurants, under several brands,
across multiple States. Mr. Scott has been with the company
since 1998 where he was vice president until 2010 when he
assumed his current role as president and CEO.
He was previously on the boards of the Oregon Restaurant
Association, Oregon Restaurant and Lodging Association where he
served on the executive committee and is Chair from 2017 to
2018. I want to thank you again, Mr. Scott, for joining us
today and we look forward to the conversation ahead.
I now recognize my colleague, Representative Molinaro, to
briefly introduce the constituent who is appearing before us
today.
Mr. MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Our next witness with us today is Chief Reuben Roach. Chief
Roach is the chief of police for the Norwich Police Department
located in Norwich, New York in upstate in the 19th District of
the State of New York. He was appointed chief of police last
year and is in his twentieth year of law enforcement.
Chief Roach originally joined the Norwich Police Department
in 2005, and was promoted to sergeant in 2014, and then
promoted again to detective sergeant in 2016. Prior to serving
for the Norwich Police Department, he served as deputy sheriff
for the Chenango County Sheriff's office.
In addition to his current role as chief of police, he also
serves on the board of his county's Chamber of Commerce. And I
certainly appreciate Chief Roach for joining us today and look
forward to the conversation ahead.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And I now recognize
the Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velazquez to briefly
introduce our last witness appearing before us today.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Our final witness today is Dr. John Roman, a Senior Fellow
in the Economics Justice and Society Department at the
University of Chicago where he also directs the Center on
Public Safety and Justice. His research focuses on the
economics of innovative crime and justice policies and
programs, cost-benefit methodology, public-private partnerships
and system reforms. He has served as the principal investigator
for more than three dozen projects, funded by FITA and local
governments, as well as national and local philanthropies.
Over the last 3 years, he led a task force to investigate
the U.S. firearms data infrastructure, and currently leads the
study of the financial cost of criminal victimization.
Thank you Dr. Roman, we look forward to your testimony.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And again, we
appreciate all of you being here today.
Now before recognizing witnesses, I would like to remind
them that their oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in
length. If you see the light in front of you turn red in front
of you it means your 5 minutes has concluded and you should
wrap up your testimony. And if you keep going, you are going to
hear a little bit of this and this means shut it down, okay?
And all of you will be fine.
So I now recognize Ms. Rez for her 5-minute opening
remarks.
STATEMENTS OF LIORA REZ, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, STOPANTISEMITISM,
ON BEHALF OF STOPANTISEMITISM; GERALD SCOTT, PRESIDENT & CEO,
ELMER'S RESTAURANTS, INC., ON BEHALF OF NATIONAL RESTAURANT
ASSOCIATION; CHIEF REUBEN J. ROACH, CHIEF OF POLICE, CITY OF
NORWICH POLICE DEPARTMENT, ON BEHALF OF CITY OF NORWICH POLICE
DEPARTMENT; DR. JOHN ROMAN, SENIOR FELLOW AND DIRECTOR, NORC AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, CENTER ON PUBLIC SAFETY AND JUSTICE
STATEMENT OF LIORA REZ
Ms. REZ. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me
here. As mentioned, my name is Liora Rez. And I am the founder
and executive director of StopAntisemitism, a nonpartisan
grassroots organization devoted to raising awareness of anti-
Semitic incidents and holding anti-Semites accountable for
their bigotry.
I started this organization in 2018, after I started
noticing how rising online anti-Semitism bled into it the real
world. Since then the anti-Semitic harassment assault and
vandalism has skyrocketed to historic highs, and Hamas'
atrocities on October 7 has only thrown gasoline on to the
fire.
The FBI has reported a 60 percent increase in reported hate
crimes after October 7, most of which were directed at Jews.
Our inboxes have reflected this and then some as we have
experienced a 1,500 percent increase in reported incidents. A
disturbing amount of targeting is directed toward small
businesses. Video after video, coast after coast shows anti-
Semites and anti-Israel activists using mob chants, vandalism
and intimidation against Jewish and Israeli-owned businesses
and their patrons.
I recently had a sobering conversation with a Jewish
entrepreneur in the greater Detroit area who has been the
ongoing target of numerous pro-Palestinian targets--protests,
excuse me. One particular troubling incident occurred on
January 1, during his restaurant's annual New Year's brunch.
Protesters smuggled megaphones into his restaurant and
proceeded to shout that the restaurant was complicit in
genocide against the Palestinian people. They then tossed
propaganda leaflets at diners intentionally creating such a
hostile environment that every single one of these people got
up and left. This ended up costing this restaurant owner over
$10,000 in revenues in just 1 day. These agitators have one
goal for him to close down his doors. This targeting has
dramatically altered how this restaurant owner has conducted
his business. He no longer allows large bags inside his
establishments, he has altered his reservation policies, he is
offering emergency mental health resources to his
understandably shaken employees, and he is spending between
$100,000 and $125,000 on security measures just in the last 90
days.
His harrowing experience is not unique. Jewish small
businesses owners have had a horrifying few months. A deli in
New York City was defaced with a swastika and anti-Semitic
graffiti, the owner was concerned about hanging Israeli and
American flags in his windows because he feared a mob would
quote, ``come throw rocks in my storefront.'' A restaurant in
Philadelphia was vandalized by a mob charging him with
genocide.
Democratic Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro called the
incident, ``a blatant act of anti-Semitism, not a peaceful
protest.'' Many of these perpetrators of these incidents were
apparently motivated by the business' public support of Israel,
as the nation defends itself against Hamas terrorists,
essentially holding Jews halfway around the world responsible
for a war in the Middle East. Adding insult to injuries, not
all of these incidents are prosecuted as hate crimes, if
prosecuted at all.
In my correspondences with these businesses, I see the
financial and emotional cost of anti-Semitism firsthand every
day. Many have insufficient cash reserves to repair and secure
their locations, some are threatened as their families both in
line and in person.
For me and many other Jews, these incidents call to mind
the pogroms that have dogged our history. Jewish businesses
were routinely vandalized and defaced under the rules of Nazis,
Soviets and other anti-Semitic regimes. Not just the simple
acts of subjugation, but also public signals that Jews were
quote, ``the other'' and, therefore, fair game. Violence was
the inevitable result.
Today the word ``Jew'' is also replaced with Zionist as
codeword, a mask of sorts that tries to justify the anti-
Semitism under the guise of social justice. While the words may
change, the results are always the same, the isolation of Jews,
the targeting of Jews and the violence against Jews.
Despite or perhaps because of that I am routinely inspired
by the small business owners resilience and tenacity. Rather
than being defeated, they double down living as proud Jews and
supporters of Israel. They haven't taken down their flags, they
haven't apologized for their faith and they haven't closed
their doors. However, admirable in their resolve, they should
not have to display resilience in the first place. It is
unacceptable for small businesses to be subjected to hate and
vandalism over their identity, much less their views on the
Middle East.
I appreciate the committee's attention to this crisis, as
Jewish small businesses have been a crucial part of America's
economic fabric since the nation's founding. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And I now recognize Mr. Scott for his 5-minute opening
remarks.
STATEMENT OF GERALD SCOTT
Mr. SCOTT. Chairman Williams and Ranking Member Velazquez,
on behalf of Elmer's Restaurant and the National Restaurant
Association I thank you for the opportunity to share our
perspective on how crime on the rise is impacting main street
businesses like mine.
The Elmer's family of restaurants is comprised of 26 full-
service breakfast-centric restaurant in Idaho, Washington,
California, Oregon and Arizona. Fully half of the restaurants
are owned and operated by independent franchisees.
Restaurant operators do their best to ensure that patrons
and employees feel safe. For example, many operators like me
have shortened hours, installed or expanded security systems
and reduced cash on hand.
But while we can adopt new practices to lessen risk, the
seriousness of crime activity makes this an entirely new ball
game. In just the last 6 months at the Elmer's family of
restaurants, one of our locations experienced two armed
robberies in the space of 3 weeks. Two other locations have had
armed robberies during the same time. A young guest was unable
to produce a valid I.D. to purchase beer. When he became
abusive to the server, the guest of course was asked to leave.
He returned with a firearm, pointed it at the server and
threatened to kill the server.
In Washington, one of the Washington restaurant's guests
and employees have had over 15 vehicle break-ins while dining
or working, including the theft of the general manager's
vehicle. In spring of 2021, the crime and homeless issues in
the neighborhood around our north Portland location became so
untenable that both guests and team members were no longer
willing to come to the restaurant. This restaurant, which had
been one of the top sales locations in 2018, was permanently
closed in April of 2021. And there are numerous other incidents
that I documented in my written testimony.
Now let me be clear, these criminal acts are not the fault
of the police department or bad policing, sheriff departments
or public safety bureaus. They are doing the best that they
possibly can with the resources that they have. But for
restaurants, the cost of dealing with an increasing crime is
significant.
Let's take an example, our Elmer's Restaurant in Tacoma,
Washington, here is a restaurant that used to be quite
profitable. However, because of burgeoning crime, we have had
to hire private security patrols to maintain a safe
environment. With security measures now costing $80,000 per
year this eats up 40 percent of the restaurant's profits before
overhead and taxes. Excluding rent, that represents the third
largest cost after labor and food cost. Keeping the restaurant
safe has even surpassed credit card fees as a significant cost
item.
I started in the restaurant business at age 15 as a busboy
in a mom-and-pop Italian restaurant on the Hill in St. Louis. I
have spent my entire life since in the business of serving
others. I think it is a great life. I am neither a
criminologist nor a sociologist, I am a pancake salesman that
is looking to help keep our guests and team members safe. We do
everything that we can to have security systems, private
patrols, training, altering hours of operation. We provide
counseling for team members who may have been crime victims and
constant, constant vigilance.
We cannot do it alone. We need your help in reducing crime.
Restaurants build their community. These are places where
people go to celebrate, to have their first date, to enjoy time
with friends and family, free from the weight of the outside
world.
Restaurants are most often at the heart of every good time
with friends and family. Small business owners, the core of the
restaurant business, the core of my business, are the
entrepreneurs that have their entire net worth, in fact their
entire lives invested in that building, that block, and that
community.
Crime undermines all of this. Even if the dollar loss is
slight, the cost to repair the doors and windows is
significant. And what is the cost to an employee who had a gun
pointed at them, praying that they survive the next few
minutes. After every crime, the owner cleans up. When they are
done picking up the pieces, they ask themselves, Is this worth
it?
When they start answering no, the lights go out, the
community becomes a darker and colder place, and the
neighborhood much less like a place where you'd like to live.
Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize Chief Roach for his 5-minute opening
remarks.
STATEMENT OF CHIEF REUBEN J. ROACH
Chief ROACH. Good morning. I want to start by thanking this
committee, and specifically the representatives here who are
willing to take the time to listen to those of us from smaller
communities who are seeing firsthand the consequences of the
crime rate and how it is affecting Main Street America.
My name is Reuben Roach, and presently, I am the chief of
police for the city of Norwich Police Department in upstate New
York. In this role, my duties include managing the resources
allocated to me, as well as the 21 full-time officers who wear
the Norwich police uniform.
In my 20-year career as a police officer, I have worked in
just about every subcategory of law enforcement from narcotics
interdiction, as a drug recognition expert, a child abuse and
sex crimes forensic interviewer, a hostage negotiation team
member, and many other facets. It has been a rewarding and
fulfilling career.
In 2003, I was asked to be a representative on the board of
Commerce Chenango in the county where I live. Happily, I
accepted this offer and I was excited to build that
relationship between the businesses and the police department.
I quickly learned, however, that many of our businesses were
suffering and that most of them were desperate for something to
change. The complaints I heard were mostly similar in nature,
an influx of homelessness, loitering, open drug use in the
business district, and unfortunately but not uncommon amongst
the complaints, is that people were defecating and urinating in
many of the business owner's doorways and parking areas.
Commerce president, Salvatore Testani, summed it up when
said to me that the current homeless challenge has greatly
increased the amount of loitering and open drug use in downtown
Norwich and throughout the city. They are concerned because
their customers, employees feel unsafe and it is having a
significant impact on their livelihoods.
In the ensuing months, 40 of our local business owners have
formed a coalition in the city of Norwich to lobby for tougher
nuisance laws. And as many of our business owners have said
something that has teeth to clean up the area.
Our local common council, our mayor, our codes department,
our fire department, the police department, are working to help
ease this burden for these business, but it is challenging to
say the least. I am often asked not just by business owners,
but by my residents, about why the crime rate is rising; why
people who are repeatedly getting arrested are not in jail; why
drug houses are on nearly every street; and why the overdose
rate is as high as it is.
While bail reform may not be the answer to every one of
these questions, I can tell you from a 20-year career in law
enforcement it is certainly a contributing factor.
When the Norwich Police Department executes a search
warrant on a drug house, the individuals they arrest are back
on the street within hours. These are drug houses and drug
dealers, these aren't drug users. The houses destroy
neighborhoods and make them unsafe for people to raise their
families. Yet these same individuals are released back to the
public often with multiple class B felonies the very same days
they are arrested.
As I mentioned previously, citizens and business owners are
concerned about witnessing individuals getting arrested
repeatedly and not going to jail. Well, they are not wrong.
Oftentimes we arrest the same individuals, five, six, seven
times before they are even arraigned in court. Crimes like
loitering, disorderly conduct, harassment, trespassing criminal
possession of a controlled substance, resisting arrest are just
a few of the common crimes that we arrest and release
individuals for within hours.
Working closely with our District Attorney, Michael
Ferrarese, we have continued to fight this uphill battle, all
while watching our small town deteriorate. D.A. Ferrarese also
summed up when he said to me, It is concerning to me as a
District Attorney that we have businesses being stolen from
daily, without any immediate consequences to the perpetrator.
Bail should always be within the judge's discretion and not
controlled by legislative roadblocks preventing us from being
able to protect our communities.
In closing, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that
recruitment and retention in law enforcement is at the lowest
I've ever seen it. When I was hired in 2003 as a deputy
sheriff, I competed with at least 100 individuals for three
positions. Today, 2024, Norwich Police Department has three
openings, potentially three openings. And we had five people
take our test. That doesn't include the background
investigation. Those are just five individuals that took our
test.
As a Member of the New York State Chiefs Association, I can
tell that recruitment and retention are on the mind of every
chief in New York.
Lastly, I want to thank each one of you for taking time to
listen to us and for helping come up with solutions for the
ever increasing issue of crime on the rise.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
And I now recognize Dr. Roman for his 5-minute opening
remarks.
STATEMENT OF JOHN ROMAN
Mr. ROMAN. Good morning. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member
Velazquez, and Members of the Committee I am honored by the
opportunity to discuss the important issue of the effects of
crime on small businesses in America.
I am a senior fellow of NORC at the University of Chicago.
NORC is a nonprofit economic and social research organization
committed to delivering objective nonpartisan insights and
analysis that decisionmakers trust. I have been studying crime
injustice for more than 25 years.
The last 4 years have been a time of profound uncertainty
for all Americans, including small business owners and their
patrons. In my field of criminal justice and economics, between
2019 and 2020, we observed the largest 1-year increase in
homicide since the FBI began keeping modern crime statistics in
1960. Conversely, in 2023 we saw the largest 1-year decrease in
violence recorded to date. This period of disruption included
several unusual changes in criminal activity, including reports
of increased carjackings, frightening videos of organized
retail theft and vicious images of hate crimes.
Separately and together, these reports have created deep
concern throughout America. I intentionally use the word
reports rather than statistics because the empirical data
around each of these crimes are extremely limited. Broader
national crime statistics suggest that these events have been
relatively limited.
Beginning March 2, 2020, the effects of the COVID-19
pandemic began to overwhelm the daily routines of many, if not
most Americans. And COVID had a significant impact on reported
crimes.
In 2020, aggravated assaults increased to about 12 percent,
and homicides increased more than 28 percent. But not all types
of crime increased. Robberies and property crime declined. And
larceny theft declined in 2020 by more than 10 percent.
In 2021 and 2022, crime in the United States remained
relatively stable, at least compared to the volatility of the
prior year. Violent crime declined in both years. Property
crimes, though, were mixed. Down in 2021, up in 2022. So let me
turn to what the FBI calls larceny theft but what which most of
us would think of as shoplifting, which followed the same
pattern. Shoplifting declined almost 5 percent in 2021, but
increased more than 7 percent in 2022. However, new estimates
for 2023 show large declines in all types of crime, including
homicide and violence, property crimes and shoplifting. Thus as
we sit here in February--I am sorry, I am getting ahead of
myself--January of 2024, homicide is returning to prepandemic
levels, but other types of crime violent crimes and property
crimes as a whole, and larceny theft in particular are now at
or below prepandemic levels.
Any number of credible theories have been proposed as to
why crime first rose and then fell. The pandemic was an
everything, everywhere, all at once experience for most
Americans. But most explanations are not similarly all
encompassing, and they explain the crime spike of 2020, but not
the crime decline of 2023.
Widespread social distancing in response to the COVID
pandemic best fits the data. The most straightforward
explanation for both the spike and decline is the pandemic and
the direct consequences of the pandemic. In particular, what
almost all the explanations for the crime decline have in
common is that they have dramatic impacts on activities
supported by local government. Local government experienced a
dramatic reduction in workforce during the pandemic that
persisted through 2022, and then rapidly reversed in 2023.
Local governments performed numerous activities that are
directly related to fighting crime. Most of America's 700,000
police officers are employed by local government, as are 8
million or so teachers.
Between March 2020 and May 2020, 3 months, more than 1
million local government, and 300,000 State government jobs
were lost. Today, local governments have, by most measures,
returned to prepandemic levels.
The United States experienced a disruption in daily life
that has few precedents in recent decades. Concerns about
victimization deepened in all corners of the nation from
neighborhoods with persistent high levels of violence, to main
streets with little history of reported victimization. When
faced with such uncertainty, one reasonable response is to
explore deep policy changes. But in the case of crime and
violence, the key causes appear to be the direct effects of the
pandemic. As the effect of the pandemic on routine activities
have returned to normal, those negative effects were begun to
dissipate.
So, in conclusion, while there are many lessons from the
pandemic, one that gets less attention is the need to
strengthen our national criminal justice data infrastructure.
Doing so will strengthen the evidence for future policymaking,
and provide a foundation for evidence-based solutions to crime
and victimization in the future.
Thank you very much.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And we will now move to the
Member questions under the 5-minute rule. But first I want to
say, you are going to see a lot of people come and go, don't
let it worry you, there are other hearings going on. So people
go, they will come back and so forth, so.
Contrary to what people are seeing and feeling on the
ground and the FBI released some data that claims violent
crimes are going down, we have heard that, it appears that the
quality of this data may be off. So Chief Roach, can you tell
us what someone must do to get a third-degree assault charge?
And is this categorized as a violent crime in New York? And are
there any other crimes that are no longer being classified as
violent?
Chief ROACH. Thank you. Yes, so assault third would be
anything that causes physical injury. Below assault third would
be harassment second. I believe that reads any shoving,
kicking, pushing. When it comes to assault third, you have to
have physical injury. For instance, if someone were to strike
somebody and they were break their nose or at least have a
black eye, that would be an assault third. That has been taken
out of the violent classification. So that is not considered a
violent crime now. Additionally, things like rape third, rape
in the third degree, is not considered a violent crime now. So
there are a slew of different charges that have moved from
violent crime categories to the nonviolent crime category.
Chairman WILLIAMS. So that may be one reason people think
that they are down, there are just not as many being included.
Chief ROACH. I believe so.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. As a small-business owner myself,
I am all too familiar with challenges of this new crime wave.
In December alone, I had two incidents where people stole cars
off my auto lot. It is amazing that this has made its way to a
small town called Weatherford, Texas. But we are seeing even
more drastic effects in our cities.
Mr. Scott, there was a line in your testimony that I
thought was especially powerful and I want to repeat it for
everyone watching. It went like this: After every crime when
the owner is done picking up the pieces, they ask themselves,
Is this worth it? When they start answering no, the lights go
out, the community gets colder and darker and the neighborhood
becomes much less like a place where want to live. So I think
this line resonated with a lot of business owners because they
hear that.
So Mr. Scott, can you tell us how crime has fundamentally
changed your community in Portland, Oregon, over the last few
years?
Mr. SCOTT. Chairman Williams, thank you for the question.
As I had mentioned in my testimony, one of the ways it has
changed for us is that we ended up closing a formerly, very
well-performing restaurant in north Portland due to crime and
homeless issues around it. We simply could not get guests to be
willing to come into the restaurant and eventually even
employees.
Also, the rise in crime has just made it more difficult to
operate the restaurant, it becomes more expensive to provide
security to make the guests feel safe. If the guests and the
employees don't feel safe, we can't continue with the business.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Right.
Following the October 7 attack on Israel, we have seen
reports that anti-Semitic incidents have increased by nearly
400 percent. We have heard that earlier.
Ms. Rez, your organization stopped anti-Semitism tracks and
exposes these incidents. And we have seen some high profile
businesses being harassed for their religious beliefs, but we
know that there are many more that go unreported. So my
question to you is, can you talk about some of the most common
forms of harassment that the Jewish businesses and employees
are facing and how these business owners and individuals are
responding to these hate crimes?
Ms. REZ. Thank you for the question, Chairman.
Oftentimes, Jewish business owners are reporting mob-type
protests outside of their establishments. This is deterring
traffic to these establishments. It is causing a direct drop in
revenues, and it is subsequently requiring more security
measures on these business owners, which again is dropping
their bottom line.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
Soft on crime policies have undermined the ability of our
great police officers and judicial systems to hold criminals
accountable. There must be consequences for criminals that
break the law, or the problem is only going to get worse. One
of the worst policies that shows there are no repercussions for
crime is cashless bail. The New York P.D. provided our
committee with 2023 statistics which showed the top 542 repeat
criminals accounted for 30 percent of all New York City retail
theft, with over 45 percent of these individuals being
previously convicted of a felony.
So our criminal justice system knows which individuals are
committing the crimes, but because of politics we are failing
to hold them accountable.
So in my brief time I have left, Chief Roach, can you talk
about some of the detrimental policies that are tipping the
scales in favor of criminals and hurting small business owners'
ability to work and make a living.
Chief ROACH. Thank you. Yes, we get complaints frequently
from business owners of drug use, loitering. And because of
that happening in front of the storefronts or the businesses,
people are not patronizing the restaurants, the stores. It is
hurting business owners' bottom line. Their revenue is
shrinking because of it.
Chairman WILLIAMS. [Audio malfunction.]
Chief ROACH. Well, rape third is not a violent crime in New
York State.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5
minutes of questions.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Many people accuse cash bail reform of the cause of
increased crime. However, it seems like the biggest problem
with the reform was the timing of its implementation right on
the cusp of the pandemic. In fact, recent studies have found no
connection between this bill reform and the rising crime during
the pandemic. In one analysis of 100,000 cases, where someone
was released pretrial in a decision related to the state's
recent bill, just 2 percent led to rearrest for a violent
felony and roughly one-fifth less to rearrest for any offense.
In total, out of these 100,000 cases, as many as 80,000
people may have avoided jail incarceration due to the reforms,
allowing them to continue going to work or providing for their
family in the pretrial period.
Dr. Roman, many of the efforts at criminal justice reform,
like bail reform, and lifting felony thresholds are blamed for
a perceived surge in shoplifting. What does the research
actually say about these policies and what benefits do they
bring to society?
Mr. ROMAN. Thank you for that question.
So it is important to say what ending cash bail means,
right? So any cash bail just means that the judge either has to
decide to remand an arrestee to jail pending a trial, or to
release them, instead of setting a cash bail where they have to
pay for the opportunity to be released. Being held pretrial is
associated with far worse outcomes for misdemeanor defendants,
which are most of the shoplifting arrestees to the extent that
a recent study from some folks at Chicago and elsewhere found
that not being detained or being released reduces the number of
future complaints by more than half. So allowing people to be
released pretrial improves their outcomes, both during the
period when they are released and their long-term outcomes.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
Many small businesses like retailers and restaurants are
increasingly becoming the site of gun violence. What are the
economic effects on these businesses and surrounding areas when
gun violence is prevalent?
Mr. ROMAN. Yeah, the economic consequences of gun violence
are almost overwhelming for a community. It is important to
note that gun violence is heavily concentrated in very specific
communities where it persists over time. And so, you have the
cumulative trauma of being exposed to violence and then you
have the cumulative economic disinvestment in those place, both
by the public sector and the private sector, and that leads to
really poor long-term outcomes for the residents, and then that
reduces the tax rate to the local government, which reduces its
ability to invest back into the place, and it becomes this
terrible cycle.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. In your work on gun violence, what is the
best strategy to reduce gun violence in an area?
Mr. ROMAN. So the best strategies around gun violence focus
on getting guns out of the hands of the most dangerous
potential offenders. One area in particular that we have seen
an increase in studies that have shown effectiveness is around
emergency protective orders, around getting guns out of the
hands of people who have been sort of red-flagged as being a
risk in a domestic violence incident, particularly around the
time when a woman leaves a difficult relationship, she has
tremendously increased risk of being the victim of gun violence
in these so-called ERPO or red flag laws can be a tremendous
help getting guns out of the hands of domestic violence
perpetrators.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
Dr. Roman, there is often a disconnect between feelings
about crime and the reality of crime trends. Would having an
accurate real-time crime database available close that
disconnect, and how can the federal government work on building
that data infrastructure? It is just unimaginable for me to
think that we could sit here and craft legislation that is not
fact-based. What are the consequences, you know, to entire
communities, and individuals, of us passing legislation that
actually doesn't reflect the reality and is not founded on data
that is reliable?
Mr. ROMAN. Right. I--there has been a tremendous amount of
research and there is a tremendous amount of evidence that can
help guide policymakers, but it requires real-time, accurate,
valid, reliable, objective data, and we don't get that now. And
we need to build the justice data infrastructure to the same
extent we have built public health data infrastructure.
Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
And I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of
Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you all very
much. Very difficult subject matter.
What shouldn't be difficult is understanding what the
problem is and how to address it. And if we need additional
data, I think we are all interested in it. As this conversation
was taking place, I was just looking at different trends from
2022 to 2023 and we can blame it on COVID, but every piece of
data I see is that smash and grabs, carjackings, assaults were
up in 2023 versus 2022, with some exceptions.
Now along with the lack of public safety and fear and
issues that all of this creates here in D.C. and Philadelphia
and Pittsburgh and elsewhere, you know, crime causes costs to
go up, as you have mentioned, Mr. Scott, right? Obviously. So
costs go up, profits go down, right? Less customers means less
sales, less revenues. It is just the economic aspect of it.
Less profits and less sales lead to less tax revenues.
So instead of you making maybe $1 million dollars a year,
now you are making $300,000 a year so your tax revenues are
less. So all the cuts that are in fact, it is a fact, have been
done to the police departments are lost. Those so-called
savings are lost in the tax revenues of the businesses within
the cities. And this is databased results. So, like, for
instance, Washington, D.C is $100 million less today for
funding its police than it was 4 years ago. $100 million, from
636 to 536. Those are the numbers no matter where you look and
where you Google and everything else, those are the numbers. I
go to the local CVS down in the Navy Yard twice in the last
year and a half, there was a smash and grab took place. And I
had been in there maybe nine times. So, you know, 20 percent of
the time I am witnessing smash and grabs.
You are mentioning recruitment officer, that is just
shameful, right? I mean, 6 years ago, what would you have, 20
applications for those 30, for those five positions or three
positions you said?
Chief ROACH. We averaged anywhere between 40 to 50
applications on a yearly basis for the Norwich Police
Department. As I mentioned, we have five right now.
Mr. MEUSER. Because they feel they are pushing against the
ocean, because they are making the arrest and prosecutors are
not prosecuting. And that is a fact as well.
In Philadelphia, for instance, and in Washington, D.C., the
prosecution rate for crime is under 30 percent for crimes,
right? In San Diego and Miami, it is over 65 percent. And guess
what, the crime in those cities is one-tenth that of similar-
size cities like Philadelphia, one-tenth. So there are answers
to this.
So let me just, I would like to just ask you as businesses
owners, and Ms. Rez, I would like to just start with you and
just go down the line. What would you like to see done in the
communities' fight against crime, resources, police expanded,
prosecutions, whatever it might be.
Ms. REZ. Thank you for the question. So the laws are
currently in place, they are not being executed properly. So we
need our judicial partners to take advantage again of the
legislation that are there in place to protect in this
particular incident, Jewish-owned businesses that are being
targeted, vandalized, harassed, so on and so forth.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you.
And I am very aware of the situation. I am glad at least
Governor Shapiro stood up and called it for what it was.
Mr. Scott.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Congressman.
You know, I mentioned I am not a criminologist. However, in
speaking with responding law officers, detectives, they all say
the same thing, there are a number of criminals. The main
problem is the same criminals keep doing the same crimes over
and over.
Mr. MEUSER. That is what I understand. They say in New
York, it is really a group of about 6- to 700 which could be
dealt with.
Officer?
Chief ROACH. I think it we allowed the judges to have
discretion to set bail on individuals that were arraigned and
arrested, that certainly would help.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you.
And Mr. Roman?
Mr. ROMAN. I mean, I think what we have here is a problem
that we don't have the sufficient data to be able to answer the
questions that are being posed by Members of this Committee to
understand which kinds of shoplifters these small businesses
are experiencing----
Mr. MEUSER. They live in the real world. There is a saying,
you don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind
blows.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Ms. Gluesenkamp from the great State of
Washington for 5 minutes.
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Thank you, Chairman Williams. And
thank you to our panelists for being here today.
So before being elected I owned an auto repair and machine
shop. And, you know, we all have these little Member bathrooms
as a Member here. On my medicine cabinet, I have a taped fake
$100 bill that got past me when I was running the till at the
shop. And, you know, just a good reminder, like, don't take
fake money. And, you know, I guess I am--I did not report that
to the police, right? The bank didn't report it to the police.
And I think that what gives me heartburn is not so much the big
guys that have the capital to institute more security measures
and to prosecute and they have the lawyers, they have the
connections. It kind of becomes a race to the bottom. And it is
businesses like mine and yours, Mr. Scott, those are the ones
that see this impact. And it is our employees are the ones they
come after with a pipe or whatever. And it is a real human
impact. And so, it is the little guys that get hurt first and
worse. And so, I am concerned about the impact on small
businesses and entrepreneurs.
And I guess, Mr. Scott, as another business owner, what do
you see as some of these driving factors?
Mr. SCOTT. Congressman--Congresswoman, thank you for the
question.
When we talk about the driving factors, that may be beyond
the scope of my skill set. I am a restaurant operator, not
necessarily a sociologist. I go back to a previous question in
that we oftentimes--actually in one restaurant we saw the same
person come in three different times. Each time a little more
threatening, each time until a third time actually breached an
employee. So it is the employees on the front line that are
bearing the brunt of this. I am sure there are many, many
possible solutions to this. And they probably all need to be
put into place. But first and foremost, we need to take steps
to keep our team members safe at work and our guests safe when
they come to the restaurants.
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Thank you.
Dr. Roman, I would like your perspective. You are familiar
with good arts law that like once something becomes a
measurement, it becomes useless, because all the parties figure
out how to game it to advance their own interests. You know,
like in our case, like we are not going to report these kinds
of crimes because no one's going to do anything. What is going
to happen? I am going lose 5 hours of my life I am never going
to get back. So I am wondering what we know about
underreporting? What do we know about how in rural communities
like mine, response time might factor in to underreporting?
What are some of the solutions you see? And to my colleague,
Mr. Meuser's point, like, sometimes it feels like all we do is
study, study, study things. Like, when we see--I mean, what are
the things we can do now?
Mr. ROMAN. Right. So we know that underreporting we call it
the dark figure of crime that if you look at the National Crime
Victimization Survey and you ask people if they have been
victimized you get a number that is far higher than the number
that you get from the FBI which is crimes reported to the
police, so we do know this. What we don't know----
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Do you have a scale of, like----
Mr. ROMAN. So it varies a lot by the kind of crime, the
more serious crime the more likely it is to be reported. So
felonies are reported more often than misdemeanors. So things
like shoplifting are underreported. And then it matters whether
you can get compensated through your insurance company or not,
right? So if somebody hits you, you can't, if your house is--
like you can, so you report it.
The thing here is that when we talk about small business
owners and the threats that they face, there is a whole bunch
of different kinds of threats, and each one of them has
different set of solutions. So there is theft along the supply
chain where things are stolen on the way to the store. There is
in-store employee theft, which is a big part of shrinkage. Then
there is theft by opportunists and amateurs, people stealing
diapers for their kids that they can't afford, then there is
organized retail theft, they are criminal enterprises.
And I think we all agree that we want the resources to go
to those organized criminal enterprises, or even along the
supply chain where you get the biggest bang, where you are
really limited policing resources. So the better data isn't
just a flag I would fly, but it actually will help us to make
better choices and what kinds of policies and practices we
implement.
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Mr. Scott, in your day-to-day, is
that what you feel like you'd like to see resources allocated
towards?
Mr. SCOTT. Well, the resources need to be allocated to
crime prevention. I think, first and foremost, allocated to
actually apprehending criminals and keeping them from coming
back in.
Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. The person that created a very
convincing fake money in my Member bathroom.
Thank you, Chairman Williams.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And I now recognize
Representative Van Duyne from the great State of Texas for her
5 minutes.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Two days ago House Republicans recognized law enforcement
appreciation day. And we have passed multiple bills to show
support and help law enforcement serve their community.
Meanwhile, you have got local elected officials and rogue
district attorneys who have taken the side of defunding and
dismantling the police, causing skyrocketing violent crime
across the country. We continue to see our police make arrests
and then rogue D.A.s fail to prosecute criminals. And for those
who were convicted, we must ensure that they are not receiving
taxpayer benefits.
Last year I introduced the Stop Funding Rioters Act which
would make a person convicted of assaulting a law enforcement
officer or a felony in connection with a riot that destroys a
small business, ineligible for assistance or programs
administered by the SBA. I look forward to seeing it marked up
and passed in the House. And anyone who activity destroys a
small business should not be allowed to receive funding from
the SBA.
I am listening to all of this information that is spewing
out right now and talking about, like, the data and how we have
to look at the data and the stats. For an example, one out of
four women have been sexually assaulted. I guarantee you that
has not been reported. I am really happy that we have not based
our policies or just looking at the data, considering if you
don't like the game, you can change the definition, you can
change the rules, because that is what we have seen. People
don't like the crime stats going up so what you are doing is
you are changing the definition of the crime.
You know, when you say a third assault, sexual assault is
not considered a violent crime? Somebody getting punched in the
nose is not considered a violent crime? I am sorry, but that
seems pretty common sense. We are changing the definitions,
because we don't like where the data is going. So we are going
to change it until we get where we like.
There are no consequences right now. In Dallas County, we
had some riots a few years ago. I talked to the DPS, I talked
to people who were out there in the streets that were looking
at businesses that were being destroyed. They were looking at
cars that were being set afire. They looked at people that were
being assaulted. They risked their lives, they got out. These
were police officers. These were Department of Public Safety
officers. They got out of their cars, they were trying to save
people's lives. They risk their own lives because they had
bricks, they had water bottles, they had rocks thrown at them.
They were attacked. The very next day, our Dallas D.A. let them
all out. Those people who had been arrested, let them all out
because there is absolutely no consequences.
When we talk about stats I am going to ask you, Mr. Scott,
have you ever been, or any of your facilities, businesses, have
you ever had something that you could have reported to the
police but because it was so onerous you didn't?
Mr. SCOTT. Congresswoman, thank you for that question. The
answer is absolutely yes. The time it takes to report
incidences that will not get a response is better spent
cleaning up whatever happened and moving on.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. So it doesn't mean that the crime didn't
happen. It just means that we have made it so difficult to
report it. And, because the odds are, one, they are not going
to be caught; two, the police right now are so thin that
actually even following up on it is going to be difficult, you
would just rather get on with your life.
Mr. SCOTT. Absolutely. It is time-consuming. The same
thing, Congresswoman, happens with insurance claims. Just
insurance, it gets to the point where it is not worth filing a
claim because the deductibles are so high.
So it just kind of gets, quite literally, swept up and then
you move on. We have businesses to run, and this is very
distracting.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. And I appreciate that answer.
Mr. Roach, I am going to ask you a question. I mean, you
see this every day. And I am from upstate New York originally,
right? I mean, I always say I am a New Yorker by birth, but I
am a Texan by choice. There is a reason why I moved out of your
State, and it wasn't just the weather.
Tell me what you are seeing up in New York. What could make
it better? What are the policies that you think like, for
example, holding criminals accountable for their actions,
having consequences? Again, it seems like common sense that, if
they can commit these crimes with no consequences, people are
going to commit crimes. What are you seeing?
Chief ROACH. Yeah. Prior to bail reform, I made a mention
in my opening speech, when we would do a drug raid or if we
would execute a search warrant on a drug house, we would arrest
the individuals responsible for that. We would take them to
court. We would arraign them. And, typically, bail would be
anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000.
As it stands now, when we execute a search warrant on a
drug house, we bring the individuals back. We fingerprint them,
and then we give them a piece of paper and tell them to go to
court 2 weeks later. And, if they don't show up to court, they
get three tries before they issue a warrant. So, yeah, it is
very time-consuming and disheartening, to say the least.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Are you seeing these people show up to
court? Are you seeing these people come back out and commit
more crimes?
Chief ROACH. Absolutely, yes.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. All right. I yield back. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Representative Scholten
from the great State of Michigan for her 5 minutes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. It is a great
State. Go Blue this week.
And we hope to keep it a great State, which is why I am so
thankful to the Chair and the Committee Members for hosting
this very, very important meeting today.
Crime and violence against small businesses defy the core
tenets of economic freedom and empowerment our country and our
economy is built on. Sadly, retail theft is proving to be a
lucrative crime enterprise and emboldens bad actors throughout
the country to use force and fear to defraud hardworking
Americans. To that end, it is incumbent on us to examine
policies and federal actions that would complement the efforts
of our State and local partners to foster safe communities for
business owners, employees, and their customers.
In my home State of Michigan, organized retail crime has
been prosecuted as a felony under the State's racketeering
statute for over a decade. While this represents a step in the
right direction, in 2021, Michigan businesses lost nearly $3.3
billion from retail crimes perpetrated both by serial
shoplifters and organized retail crime rings capitalizing on a
society paralyzed by a pandemic. Clearly, more must be done.
My first question is for you, Dr. Roman: In your testimony,
you attribute the radical changes in crime and violence over
the last 4 years to the pandemic. In addition to strengthening
our national criminal justice data infrastructure, what
strategies are law enforcement using to deter theft and
violence in the first place and equip authorities with the
necessary resources to arrest those who liquidate the stolen
goods? What are some of those efforts that this committee
should be aware of?
Mr. ROMAN. Yes. So I think what we learned in the last
couple of decades fighting the war on drugs, we can apply those
lessons here. A lot of what we did was ineffective, but some
things were. Focusing at the top of the food chain of these
organized criminal enterprises is by far the most effective
strategy. And that is both on supplying the thieves who go into
the store and on fencing the merchandise that comes out. And we
don't focus very much on that.
If you look at the FBI statistics on receipt of stolen
property as a category that people are being charged with,
nobody is. So there is very little focus on that side of the
ledger and much more could be done to interrupt organized
criminal enterprises on both sides, both doing the sort of task
force approach that you talked about, identify the leadership,
and then working to prevent the merchandise from being resold
or taken somewhere else.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Okay. Thank you.
Question number two: During the COVID-19 pandemic, violence
against small businesses reached communities who previously
experienced little to no crime. Since then, the spread and
volatility of crime has been compounded by the gun violence
epidemic.
Dr. Roman, you noted that Americans' perception of their
risk of victimization is rapidly increasing. Despite certain
crime rates stabilizing or outright dropping, how can we
measure the lasting effect in overall cost of gun violence in
particular to small businesses, and what can business owners do
to mitigate those costs?
Mr. ROMAN. So gun violence is a problem that is
concentrated in specific American communities, some urban but
some suburban and even some rural, and it tends to persist in
those places, and it creates a sort of perpetual cycle of
accumulated disadvantaged.
Those place are underinvested, both by private sector and
by public sector. And then they don't then have the capital and
the resources to build and grow and create a broader tax base,
which then allows the government to create more infrastructure
to create prosperity.
So organizing to ask that policymakers and the police focus
their efforts, again, at the top of these criminal pyramids to
try and disrupt organized gangs, organized theft enterprises,
organized drug dealing, is the way to begin to break the cycle
and help support these small business owners and the rest of
the Members of these communities.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much. One last quick question,
and this is for any of the witnesses. I want to talk about
infrastructure investments.
What would help authorities get ahead and stay ahead of
individuals committing retail fraud over the internet,
particularly thinking about online infrastructure? How can this
committee leverage AI, among other resources, to create that
infrastructure?
I know we are running out of time here so if anyone has
thoughts they want to submit for the record, we would gladly
take those, leading on initiatives on AI and small business and
also the Ranking Member on infrastructure and government
contracting here, so very, very important.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative Maloy from the great State
of Utah for her questions.
Ms. MALOY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do represent the
Second District in Utah, and we love small businesses in Utah.
The stats that the State gave me are that 99 percent of our
businesses are classified as small businesses, and they employ
45 percent of the employees in Utah.
And I have talked to a lot of small business owners. They
are already facing inflation, and it is tough to run and keep a
small business running. And now I am sitting here listening to
you all tell me that small businesses are facing religious
targeting and abuse of your employees and fear of reporting
crimes because of insurance rates and the hassle, and that
repeat offenders are coming into your businesses and making
them harder to run.
So I just want to start with an apology. I am sorry that
Jewish businesses are facing anti-Semitism. In a country that
values religious freedom, that should not be a problem. And I
know my apology doesn't fix the problem, but I think it is
important to acknowledge.
In southern Utah in part of my district, law enforcement is
telling me that because we have Interstate 15 that runs from
Mexico to Canada, we have a lot of what I would call transient
crime, people who are coming to our town specifically to commit
these kind of retail crimes and then leave because they assume
that we are not sophisticated enough to handle this crime.
And, in Utah, the State partnered with businesses to form
the Crimes Against State Economy task force, so CASE task
force. And they have had some success, including decreases in
online retail theft. So I am happy to see that the State is
getting innovative and finding ways to address this, and I just
want to ask the entire panel the same question.
We are the federal government. We don't move as quickly or
as nimbly as States do and sometimes it is better for us to
just stay out of something. But is there anything we could do
at the federal level that is innovative and new that would help
small businesses or law enforcement address these problems more
effectively?
Because what I am hearing from the questions on this panel
is that we have agreement on both sides of the aisle that this
is a problem, and we need to address it. And when we at least
agree on what the problem is, that creates an opportunity.
So what, in each of your opinions, can we do from the
federal level, either legislation or policy-wise, to help
address these issues? And start here with Ms. Rez.
Ms. REZ. It is crucial that Members use their oversight
power to ensure that existing laws are enforced and issues--or
issuing statements of support, such as you just verbally did,
and it is very much appreciated. Thank you, Congresswoman
Maloy. It is crucial. Constituents want to hear it. We need to
hear it. The support is a must.
Ms. MALOY. Thank you.
Mr. Scott.
Mr. SCOTT. Congresswoman, thank you for the question. I
think the number one thing that could be done at the federal
level is to address recidivism. We have noticed, as small
business owners, that we see sometimes when the police officers
respond, and they know by name the person that perhaps they
have acquired, because this is the third time they have met
them that week and in one case the second time they met them
that night, it says that perhaps there is a problem with the
people that are doing the crimes need to be held responsible.
And addressing recidivism would go a long way toward keeping
these repeat crimes from happening. Thank you.
Ms. MALOY. Thank you.
Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congresswoman. Continued support.
We work closely with our federal counterparts, the FBI, the
DEA, the Secret Service, Homeland Security.
Additionally, the Norwich Police Department applied to the
COPS grant, which is a federal grant for community-oriented
policing. We were awarded that grant, which over a period of
time was a significant amount of money for a 3-year period to
hire a new police officer. So things like that do help, and I
am hoping that it continues.
Ms. MALOY. Thank you.
Mr. ROMAN. There are 18,600 local law enforcement agencies
in the United States, which is an incredibly--I am sorry.
There is 18,600 local law enforcement agencies in the
United States. We have an incredibly fractured and distributed
law enforcement system, and the only way to move beyond hearing
a story and trying to act on it to actually understanding the
nature and the scope of the problem is to create more
infrastructure at the federal level to assist local policing
authorities in collecting data that they can then use locally
to target their resources more effectively and efficiently, but
then also to contribute to our understanding of city/regional/
State-level changes in patterns and scope and type of offending
so we can respond more quickly and more inexpensively.
Ms. MALOY. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Representative Mfume
from the great State of Maryland for his 5 minutes.
Mr. MFUME. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
I want to thank our witnesses for being here today, and I
want to thank the Ranking Member who worked with you to pull
this together.
I, Mr. Chairman, am still trying to get my arm around what
we can do. And so I have been listening, and I wanted to
comment on a few things that I heard, because the hearing topic
is ``Crime on the Rise: How Lawlessness is Affecting Main
Street America.'' And I think it is fair to say that most of us
already know the answer to that.
It is having and has had a very negative long-term impact
on Main Street America, and it will continue to do so unless
there are some very real definitive and measurable things that
take place.
So, you know, I am wrestling with this, the title here, but
I understand there is a real opportunity, Mr. Chairman, which
is why I was thanking you earlier, to have this discussion and
to have people here who, in their own particular way and area
of expertise, can lend some credibility to what we are trying
to do by giving us real answers based on real experiences.
I did hear just now that we could do better oversight of
the law as one way of dealing with this. And regrettably--
regrettably--so much of the law, as the gentlewoman from Texas
mentioned earlier, is really law that emanates, finds its
genesis, and is operational at a State level.
States, local DAs in cities, towns and hamlets and other
places really have to be at the table. In fact, I wish the
representative organizations of each were here today because
that is where the meat of this is going to be found, and that
is where we are going to find real effort.
I mean, we sit here. It is a great committee to be on. But,
at the end of the day, on this particular issue it is very
difficult for the government of the United States at a federal
level to bring about instant change. However, again, States,
local municipalities, and DAs on local levels can, in fact,
enforce the law. That is really, really important.
And then I heard a good suggestion, which we can deal with
at our level, and that is this whole idea of dealing with
recidivism. Someone said earlier, when I got into the hearing
that, yeah, there is a lot of crime, but the criminals are the
criminals are the criminals. It is usually the same club, the
same group. And so that is why recidivism is so very high.
And I think, from a legislative perspective, as we move
forward on crime initiatives, perhaps it is important in the
language and an instruction to make sure that a part of that
attaches itself to recidivism rates and whatever we are trying
to do calls attention back to the fact that there has to be
measurable achievements in recidivism before we are prepared to
issue whatever we do, whether it is money or expertise or
anything else.
The other thing I do want to just briefly touch on--and, by
the way, it is not just the regular crime. It is bail reform,
all the other things, the crime laws that are operational at a
State and local level that, in my opinion, are not being
enforced the way they could or should.
This notion of retail crime--I shouldn't say this notion.
It is a reality. But let's talk about that for just a moment
because I was concerned also about what seems to be an out-of-
control situation, whether it is the smash and grab, whether it
is, as Dr. Roman said, the organized efforts, whether it is
somebody who is working in a store that decides to do
something, to take something, whether it is somebody who is
just trying to feed their child and steals diapers. All of
those things in the aggregate, particularly the organized
effort, is something that concerns all of us, I hope.
So I was equally concerned 8 weeks ago, 4 weeks ago, when I
read that the National Retail Federation, which scared the
daylights out of most Americans, in their report said that the
retail theft had reached $94 billion in this country, a gross
overstatement.
And I wanted to know why, but someone beat me to the punch,
and that was an investigative reporter at the San Francisco
Chronicle, who pointed out the fact that this was really an
overreach, and then every study after that in the last 4 weeks
has confirmed it, so much so that the National Retail
Federation had to retract its estimate and to admit that it was
woefully inadequate and completely blown out of control.
And so I am trying to figure, okay, so if the National
Federation does that, what are they trying to achieve? And what
they have achieved is with stores now deciding to close in
communities because they say the cost of business is too high.
And those communities are left on their own.
I hear the Chairman tapping the gavel, so I am going to
yield, but I will remain open, Mr. Chair, to any suggestions
that any of you have that we ought to pursue on a national
level to get us to where we all want to be.
I yield back. Thank you, sir.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields.
I now want to represent Representative Stauber from the
great State of Minnesota for his 5 minutes.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking
Member Velazquez, for your holding this hearing today. And
thank you to our witnesses for taking time away from their busy
schedules to help shed light on this important topic.
Violent crime in America continues to be an issue following
the end of the pandemic. Last year, in my hometown of Duluth,
Minnesota, there was a 46 percent increase in incidents of
shots fired. Duluth has only a 1 percent higher crime rate than
the national average. With numbers like that, it is no surprise
violent crime continues to be rampant in cities like
Washington, D.C.; Minneapolis; New York; Chicago; and so many
others.
As a former police officer, having served my community for
over two decades, 23 years to be exact, as well as a victim of
two violent gun crimes, the rise in violent crime and lack of
support for our police officers is a dire concern.
However, with that said, I am so grateful for the chance to
serve in Congress and stand in defense of my brothers and
sisters in blue while fighting to keep our communities safe.
Ending the crime crisis should not be a partisan issue but,
unfortunately, it seems that it is. As most Americans witnessed
on their televisions and phones, the start of the Defund the
Police movement took place in my home State of Minnesota.
Unfortunately, the repercussions of that movement caused
many democratically run States and cities to turn against the
very individuals hired to protect their communities. Across the
country, we saw crime rates skyrocket. When cities profoundly
announced they were defunding the police, homicides, car
jackings and robberies and assaults all went up. The Defund the
Police movement will take years to reverse the negative effects
it has had on the safety of our communities and on police
recruitment, retention, and morale.
Following the pandemic, as businesses reopened, they had
additional obstacles to fight with, from supply chain and
workforce issues, the rising inflation rates through Bidenomics
to large-scale theft and violence. If not for relaxed Democrat
policies on crime, our communities would be safer.
Business owners across the country noticed a difference in
policing as in many instances police officers have been
prevented from doing their jobs when it comes to pursuing
fleeing suspected criminals. Many cities even raised the
threshold for certain violent crimes, in some instances
releasing offenders--violent offenders--k into our communities
the very same day immediately after given a citation.
Chief Roach, across the country in 2020, there were many
Democrat lawmakers calling to Defund the Police, knowing that
some elected officials are supporting them. How has it affected
recruitment and retention of officers, in your opinion, not
only in your department but across the country?
Chief ROACH. It is a tough question, and it is a question
that needs to be answered. Morale is very low amongst the
police ranks. The demonization of police officers for the last
couple of years has driven recruitment to the lowest it has
ever been since I have been a police officer, anyway.
I know the officers at times feel as if they are going
against the grain, that everything that they do is for naught.
And I think through continued support and turning the ship is
the only way to get past this, I think.
Mr. STAUBER. From your perspective, what types of policies
would help protect our small businesses and our communities?
Chief ROACH. I harken back to the fact that I think that
our judges should have the discretion to set bail in just every
situation, really. We should be able to take individuals for
arraignment on the same day they are arrested. Prior to bail
reform, we could do that and the judge would make a
determination. These are bar-certified judges. They are
capable, they are intelligent, and they should have that power
to do that.
Mr. STAUBER. A couple things, Chief. Do you think that we
should all look at, as a nation, go back to looking at the
broken windows theory?
Chief ROACH. I think there is some benefit to that, yes.
Mr. STAUBER. How about community policing? And so tell me
if you agree with this: My definition of community policing is
you don't police your community, you police with your
community. Do you agree with that definition?
Chief ROACH. I do I think it was Sir Robert Peel that said,
the police are the people and the people are the police. We
have to be part of the community, and we have to show support
for the community but also enforce the laws.
Mr. STAUBER. I agree with you. And, Chief, thank you for
your service.
Chief ROACH. Thank you.
Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Scott, in your testimony you listed a
number of offenses against your business. With the rise in
crime, what measures have you taken to protect yourself and
your staff?
Mr. SCOTT. Congressman, thank you for the question. We have
taken a number of measures. We have robust security systems in
place. We do multiple levels of training on how to respond to a
crime. We provide a counselor made available not through an
insurance company but by ourselves at our expense for any of
our employees that have been crime victims.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much. I am getting gaveled out.
And it cost you money too, didn't it?
Mr. SCOTT. Yes, sir, substantial money.
Mr. STAUBER. And I yield back. Thank you.
The WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative Thanedar from the great
State of Michigan for 5 minutes.
Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you, Chairman. And thank you for
hosting this hearing. I certainly appreciate your expertise,
all of the witnesses, and your comments in educating us on this
important issue.
You know, back in 1990, I started my business. It was a
three-person business, and we dealt with pharmaceutical
testing. And, as a result of a need of my business, I had to
have controlled substances on my premises. It was a DEA-
approved facility. And the danger always was because people
knew we had such controlled substances in our facility created
a special danger to not only my business but also my employees.
And, being a three-person business, my annual revenues were
like $150,000, and we didn't have a lot of resources to be able
to put the safeguards and the protection that we needed for the
business or for my employees.
And so one of my questions--and any one of you can answer--
is what can the federal government do to help little businesses
like this, in terms of protecting their employees and their
facilities and their equipment?
Ms. REZ. I will be happy to answer that. Thank you.
Currently, there are federal grants in place where, for
instance, Jewish-owned businesses can apply for. There is so
much red tape, paper requirements that just absorb so much time
that so many Jewish organizations, Jewish businesses throw up
their hands out of frustration and say, ``It is just not worth
it.'' So, if we can expedite the process, make it more
streamlined, this would be enormously beneficial.
Mr. THANEDAR. Agree, absolutely, because the small
businesses don't even have the resources to be able to go
through, you know, pages and pages on a website and filling all
that information. Sometimes it could take, you know, hours or
days to get that done. And you throw up your hands and say, ``I
would rather not deal with that.'' And so that certainly we can
do.
Then my business later on grew much bigger, and we were
able to afford the kind of security that we needed to protect
my employees.
The other question is, certainly law enforcement, I do see
a lot of struggle in terms of retention. Certainly, the morale
is low, and they don't have access often I see in terms of
mental health.
A lot of these issues also deal with--alongside the crime,
there are also mental health issues that need to be dealt with,
and often the law enforcement does not have sufficient
resources in that aspect. And so their response is not complete
without a partner that specializes in mental health issues to
deal with on those issues. So I want to address--I hope you can
address some of that.
And also, in the end, I want to really come back to the
fundamental issue. How does systemic racism, how does poverty
affect all this, and is there something we could do at the base
fundamental level to change and make things safer?
Mr. ROMAN. If I could say a word about both of those
things. So, on the issue of law enforcement, the International
Association of Crime Analysts recommends that there is one
crime analyst for every 200 officers. We spend a lot of time
thinking about boots on the ground, but to your question,
Representative Mfume, about what we can do, we can support
investment in the analytic support for officers so that their
time is spent best. We do very little of that compared to how
much we support boots on the ground in the military.
To your other question, the other hat that I am wearing
today is as the co-director of the National Prevention Science
Coalition. And we would strongly advocate that much of the
crime problem that we face today is the result of
underinvestment that happened a generation ago, in terms of how
we do child support and maternal support and adolescent
development and strengthen schools and child protective
services and public health and throughout the educational
system.
So what we are investing in today in prevention is what is
going to determine whether we are having this hearing again in
20 years.
Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you. And I am out of time, Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Representative Alford from Missouri, the
great State of Missouri, for 5 minutes.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Ranking Member Velazquez.
This is an important hearing that we are having today,
because it touches everyone in America. I don't care if you are
in the Fourth District and you are in a small town or you are
in Kansas City, St. Louis.
Thank you to our witnesses. I know you come here on your
own dime and own time, and we really appreciate that. Look, we
all know our nation's small businesses are suffering because of
the administration's policies on crime and being soft on crime.
In a recent study, 90 percent of small businesses stated
that they have been a victim of a crime in the last year.
Eighty-three percent say that crime is at least a somewhat
major issue for their business.
Democrat policies have hamstrung police from doing their
job, and cashless bail and the failure to prosecute repeat
offenders has really exacerbated this crisis. The crime is
negatively impacting our country, including my home State of
Missouri.
Late last year, a small business in Missouri, Osage County
Guns, was a victim of a crash-and-grab. A group of thieves
crashed a stolen car through their very front door, causing
$200,000 worth of damage and stealing $28,000 worth of
merchandise.
Crimes like this targeting small businesses are hurting
ordinary Missourians on all levels. According to a recent
survey by the Missouri Chamber of Commerce, 7 out of 10
business leaders say that the rising crime rate is impacting
Missouri's economic competitiveness.
I had the chance to visit with Missouri Chamber of Commerce
President Dan Mehan recently. He said, to my surprise, crime is
the number one issue facing businesses in Missouri, not just
St. Louis and Kansas City but all Missouri.
I am also concerned about the increase in crime against the
Jewish community. Following the October 7, 2023, attack on
Israel, targeted crime against Jewish people and businesses in
the U.S. dramatically rose by 400 percent. We have to restore
law and order in our country. When the lawlessness is
tolerated, it will continue to fester and grow.
So let's get to the questions. First off, Mr. Scott,
considering that an overwhelming number of small businesses is
impacted by the crime crisis, how has your business
specifically been affected by this?
Mr. SCOTT. Congressman, thank you for the question. And,
being Missouri born and raised, I appreciate having you here.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you.
Mr. SCOTT. The crime crisis affects both the guests and the
employees. The guests feel less safe, knowing that perhaps
their car will get broken into or perhaps something will happen
to them on their way to or from the restaurant or actually in
the restaurant parking lot itself.
Employees feel less safe, knowing that perhaps my car will
get broken into or will somebody come in that gets angry about
the fact that we burnt their toast and will do something rash
or something violent.
So it makes everybody feel less safe. It, quite frankly, is
scary. They have not just maybe a loss of hours for employees
but also, most importantly, loss of peace of mind.
Mr. ALFORD. How much does that cost your business?
Mr. SCOTT. Well, one example would be our restaurant in
Tacoma, Washington, where it is now costing us $80,000 per
year, which is 40 percent of our profit of that restaurant,
which was the profit of the restaurant, to provide additional
security in order to make the team and the guests feel safe.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you.
Next question for Chief Roach: I want to delve into a
little bit about the bail reform. There was an article in the
New York Post January 22nd of last year talking about George
Soros spending $40 million to get Progressive prosecutors
elected. We have seen that in Missouri as well.
What role has that played in changing the way that we deal
with criminals, letting them out on the streets to repeat their
crimes, to terrorize the American public?
Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman. Yeah. We have a great
district attorney in our county, Michael Ferrarese. He is very
pro-police, and he does what he can. But that being said, we do
see the effects of bail reform, and they are not good. We see
arrest after arrest after arrest of the same individuals. Just
about in 80 percent of our cases I would say, the individuals
we arrest we are arresting five or six times before they ever
even go to court.
Mr. ALFORD. Do you see the end in sight for that?
Chief ROACH. I am hopeful, but I don't see it right now.
Mr. ALFORD. Thank you.
Thank you once again to our witnesses.
I am almost out of time, and I yield back. Thank you,
Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Representative McGarvey from the great
State of Kentucky for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I will start off by echoing the opening statement that Mr.
Alford said. You know, we do work here because what happens in
small businesses across this country is happening in every
district. It is why we come together and talk about these
problems, how to make sure our small businesses are thriving.
They continue to be the backbone of the American economy.
We are talking about main street today. In fact, the title
of today's hearing is ``Crime on the Rise: How Lawlessness is
Affecting Main Street America.'' So I want to talk to you about
my district in Louisville, Kentucky. On our literal main
street, in main street downtown Louisville, Kentucky, USA, we
have an Old National Bank branch. Old National Bank, a local
bank, local people who work there lend to local businesses.
On Monday morning, April 10th of last year, the morning
after Easter, our community was rocked when an employee walked
in and shot 14 people, killing five of them, including a police
officer who miraculously survived an AR-15 round to the head.
The young man who did this was under psychiatric care, but
still, 6 days before the shooting, he was able to walk into a
store and purchase an AR-15 and all the ammunition he needed in
under an hour.
See, we are talking about crime, but we can't talk about
crime and not talk about guns. Gun deaths and injuries cost
Kentucky $9.6 billion each year, each year. $183.4 million is
paid directly by the taxpayers. The Chamber of Commerce says
that larceny cost Kentucky $1.5 billion last year. Not great,
but it is not 9.6.
See, gun violence, it pervades every aspect of our lives.
It is unthinkable that we are talking about this with gun
violence in schools and small businesses in rural America, in
urban America. In 2024, in the U.S., there have already been
1,137 gun violence-related deaths and seven mass shootings. You
guys, we are 11 days into 2024, and there have been seven mass
shootings.
Gun violence we know is bad for our communities. It is bad
for families. It is bad for kids, it is bad for everyone
impacted. We know the emotional toll. Today's focus highlights
the economic impact. And yes, it is bad for business, but
luckily we can do something about it.
We can have an assault weapons ban. We can have waiting
periods. We can have extreme risk protection orders or red flag
laws. We can actually have background checks, safe storage
requirements, magazine limits. These are things we can do in
the United States Congress that will help prevent crime and gun
violence deaths.
Just this past November, 216 of my colleagues on the other
side of the aisle voted to prohibit funding for the CDC's
firearm injury and mortality prevention research. We can do
something, guys. And we must, because it is impacting all of
our communities and all of our small businesses.
Dr. Roman, I want to ask you, because I understand your
research focuses on using data to better fight gun violence.
With that vote against the CDC, how does prohibiting funding
from critical research agencies that collect gun violence data
make the gun violence epidemic better or worse?
Mr. ROMAN. Yeah. I appreciate the question, thank you for
asking it because what we want to do is to make data available
to allow policymakers to make evidence-based, data-driven
decisions, including all the other considerations that you
have.
So, for example, when you talk about trying to keep the
hands out of the young man who committed this atrocity in
Louisville, if you look at the data that California gets in
terms of access to people who have been detained in a mental
health facility, that would go into their data systems. The
federally licensed firearm dealers would know that this person
had been in that system and was not allowed to purchase a
weapon.
In most States around the country, those data exchanges do
not take place. That data is not kept. It is not transmitted.
They do not know that this person is prohibited from buying a
weapon because the data are insufficient to do that.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Representative Molinaro from the great
state of New York for 5 minutes.
Mr. MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the
opportunity to speak this afternoon and certainly to have from
Norwich, New York, Chief Reuben Roach, who has led that
department during a real transition in criminal justice policy
in the State of New York.
And so let's be very clear. It is without question that
small businesses are cynical, and they have lost faith in their
elected officials. Certainly, that couldn't be any more true
than in the State of New York where, overall, 83 percent of
small business owners believe that crime is a major issue, and
they have lost faith in their elected leaders.
I would offer out loud two things. Having spent the last 20
years in local government, where some of my colleagues know, in
my home county we led a transformational effort in criminal
justice prior to New York's disastrous cashless bail policy,
where we saw a 50-percent reduction in violent crime and a 40-
percent reduction in inmate population. Why? Because we were
given the tools to invest early. Chief Roach knows this. He has
implemented these tools. And cashless bail was eliminated.
The other thing I would offer out loud, because I am very
keenly aware of the data. I would suggest that, when a State
like New York chooses not to input data, that data can't be
analyzed correctly. In fact, the State decided for 12 months to
delay the inputting of criminal justice data, so that local
elected officials and prosecutors had no such capacity to even
know how to respond.
And, secondly, while data may not lie, the people who input
the data do. And, with all due respect to all my colleagues and
to the witnesses, I just would offer out loud that, when you
want a certain outcome, policymakers and elected officials and
administrators, in particular in my home State, can choose what
data is or is not collected for a certain outcome.
Chief Roach, could you speak specifically to the impact
that you have experienced and our small businesses have
experienced, at least in upstate State of New York, first prior
to cashless bail, during cashless bail, and then post-cashless
bail implementation.
Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman. Yeah. So our local
business owners, 40 of them created a coalition. They meet
weekly or biweekly at the Commerce Board. And they are lobbying
heavily with the Common Council to create nuisance laws to try
to correct this problem with bail reform and the loitering and
the drug use and the damage it is doing to their businesses.
A lot of them say we need something with teeth. And it is
unfortunate that it has to be a criminal nuisance legislation
at the Common Council level, because there probably won't be a
lot of teeth in that, unfortunately. It will be a ticket, which
is a fine essentially, and potentially down the road, quite a
long ways down the road, potentially jail time. But that
doesn't fix the problem that they are facing every day as they
are losing business and losing customers.
Mr. MOLINARO. So what you are experiencing in the State of
New York, to be clear a bit, right, is that because State law
prohibits the ability for law enforcement to intervene early in
lesser offenses, the City Council is being asked to intervene
with its own city ordinance, in the hopes that you can enforce
that.
Chief ROACH. That is correct.
Mr. MOLINARO. Have you experienced over your years of
service the State of New York enjoying local government's
establishing their own local laws?
Chief ROACH. When they are court tested, these local laws,
usually when they are court tested they don't usually stand.
Mr. MOLINARO. In the State of New York, when it comes to
collecting fines that you might use to implement alternatives
to incarceration and other intervention tools, does the State
of New York allow you to keep those fines, or does the State of
New York keep the money and simply return some portion of it to
the city?
Chief ROACH. I believe it is a small portion returned.
Mr. MOLINARO. Yes. And so, over the course of the last
several years, in particular with the implementation of
cashless bail, have you also seen local prosecutors attempting
to link up with federal prosecutors, because federal law may be
a bit more stringent and applicable to a case where New York
State law has failed?
Chief ROACH. Certainly, yes, oftentimes our district
attorney will work with the Syracuse Federal Building attorneys
to make that happen.
Mr. MOLINARO. So, in all instances, has this made your job
easier or more difficult?
Chief ROACH. More difficult.
Mr. MOLINARO. Has this resulted in less or more instances
of reportable or unreportable crimes?
Chief ROACH. More crimes.
Mr. MOLINARO. And has this provided a degree of confidence
or lack of confidence among the community as it relates to the
ability to enforce the law?
Chief ROACH. It was mentioned earlier a lot of folks don't
even call the police department anymore.
Mr. MOLINARO. Yeah. And I will close, Mr. Chairman, in that
regard. To suggest that crime is on the decline because it
hasn't been reported is to suggest that ordinary law-abiding
citizens, small businesses have a degree of confidence and
therefore are reporting those things that they think should be
intervened by law enforcement. That isn't occurring.
Just, by the way, as individuals who have a lifetime to
make poor decisions, those who have criminal backgrounds are
making decisions to circumvent the existing law so that they
can engage in activity and not be reported. I have seen it
consistently.
The best tool is to empower main street, small communities,
local elected officials and local criminal justice systems to
intervene early to prevent long-term and unsustainable rates of
crime.
Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize Representative Landsman from the great
State of Ohio for 5 minutes.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And thank you all for your testimony and just being with us
today. I am a big believer in the importance of public safety
and investing in public safety, was at City Hall in Cincinnati
before I came here. And, over the course of the 5 years at City
Hall, we invested an additional $20 million in our police
department.
We struggled in the last year to recruit, and we had two
recruit classes. The first one, we weren't able to fill every
one of the positions. The second one, we offered a bonus,
recruitment bonus, and we were able to fill all 50 slots.
And this is for Chief Roach: The issue of recruitment and
retention is a huge one. You mentioned it, and I was really
glad you mentioned it. There is a bipartisan bill to allow for
the COPS grant to just provide the flexibility so that
municipalities like yours could use those dollars not just for
base salary but for retention and recruitment. I wanted to get
your quick thoughts on that.
Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman. Yes. The COPS grant is
a wonderful thing. It is a great thing for a small community
like Norwich. It affords us the opportunity, as I mentioned
earlier, to hire a new police officer, dedicate more officers
into the downtown district, foot patrol, community relations,
going to centers like the YMCA to interact with the youth. So,
yeah, that is a great grant to have, and we are very thankful
for it.
Mr. LANDSMAN. And being able to give you--giving you all
the flexibility to use it for base salary but also for bonuses
for recruitment and retention, a positive thing, right?
Chief ROACH. That is a positive thing. I am not familiar
with the bonuses.
Mr. LANDSMAN. The bonuses have helped in other cities. They
made a big difference in ours. We have the bill. It is a
bipartisan bill. I am just bringing it up, obviously, because
it would have a big impact, but could use help from my
Republican friends. We have a lot of Republicans on the bill,
but we haven't been able to get it in front of the committee.
And it would make a big difference in terms of municipalities
being able to recruit and retain officers.
The second thing I wanted to mention was, we talked about
judges and law enforcement and the importance of helping and
empowering judges and folks in law enforcement.
One of the things is red flag laws where we say, okay, this
person should not have a weapon. And a judge is able to say, we
are going to--I saw in one of the budget proposals that there
is language that may pass that would prevent any funding to
implement red flag laws.
I am curious, Chief or Dr. Roman, your thoughts on this. I
mean, it seems like red flag laws is common sense, makes, you
know, life a lot easier for law enforcement judges to get guns
out of the hands of would-be criminals.
Chief ROACH. I can tell you that we do propose quite often
the emergency risk protection orders. That does help.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
Chief ROACH. And it has worked out. In every circumstance
that we have used it, it has worked out for the better.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
Mr. ROMAN. And I would just add that the evidence is pretty
overwhelming that it is an effective mechanism to prevent
serious felonies, particularly domestic shootings.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah. And I think there is growing consensus
about red flag laws. I just want to make sure we don't mess
around and undermine them by cutting off funding.
And then, lastly, there is this rise of anti-FBI sentiments
out there. And, you know, I am Jewish, and so the work on anti-
Semitism is hugely important.
And I am wondering, Ms. Rez, if you are worried about just
the number of politicians who are going after the FBI, who do
so much work to prevent crime and the spread of anti-Semitism?
Does it worry you?
Ms. REZ. So federal agencies are trusted partners of Stop
Antisemitism and other Jewish organizations. In terms of
negative public opinion or congressional opinion, again, it is
personal. I can't speak to an individual Congresswoman or man's
opinion. But, again, the only thing that I can say is, on the
federal level, the FBI are trusted partners of Stop
Antisemitism.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Thank you. I couldn't agree more. And I do
worry. And, hopefully, we get to an end of going after FBI, law
enforcement in general.
And, with that, I yield back.
Mr. BEAN. [Presiding.] Thank you very much. Let's go to New
York, where Representative LaLota is standing by with
questions.
Representative LaLota, you are recognized for 5 minutes. Go
right ahead.
Mr. LALOTA. The best introduction person in the House of
Representatives. Mr. Bean, thank you, sir.
I want to thank Chairman Williams, who just had to step out
for a moment, for his leadership on this important topic of how
lawlessness is impacting main street in America.
In a recent study, 90 percent of small business said they
had been a victim of a crime last year, 90 percent. And 83
percent of small businesses have said that crime is a major
issue for their business.
And I want to thank my colleague from the other side of the
aisle from Ohio for just a few minutes ago raising the issue of
the COPS grant program. I am excited to announce that just
today I introduced the COPS on the Beat Grant Program
Reauthorization and Parity Act.
This bill is supported by every major national police
organization. It gives police departments, both large and
small, certainty that a program they rely on for years and
years to keep their communities safe will continue.
In 2022, New York City received federal funds to hire 50
additional officers. And, last year, the city of Norwich Police
Department used COPS hiring grant program to hire one
additional officer.
Chief Roach, you lead the Norwich Police Department. Thank
you for doing that. Can you tell me about your experience with
the COPS program, and would you like to see it reauthorized and
continue to be funded, sir?
Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman. Yes, the COPS grant,
as I mentioned a few minutes ago, is a great program. It
affords small communities like Norwich the opportunity to hire
an additional police officer.
With that, there are a lot of things we can do, such as
putting officers in high-risk areas, putting them in the
downtown district, and community policing type activities,
having them go to the school for sports events or to the YMCA
or even just in some of the downtown Norwich events as well.
Mr. LALOTA. Out of curiosity, how large is your department
and what is the impact of hiring just one officer, in relation
to overtime, patrols, other things that help enhance community
safety? One may not seem like a large number to many, but what
can one do for your police department?
Chief ROACH. It is significant. We have 21 full-time
officers. One additional officer relieves a burden of overtime.
Most of our officers are working anywhere from 200 to 400 hours
a year of overtime. It cuts that in half, at least. And it
affords an opportunity to potentially promote another detective
to work in the Detective Division.
Mr. LALOTA. Great. Thanks so much.
Shifting gears, Mr. Chairman, organized retail crime is on
the rise throughout the country. Organized retail crime is the
large-scale theft of retail merchandise with the intent to
resell that merchandise for financial gain. It typically
involves a criminal enterprise employing a group of individuals
who steal large quantities of merchandise, and it affects
businesses of all sizes.
I am proud to cosponsor the Combating Organized Retail
Crime Act. This expands federal enforcement of criminal
offenses related to organized retail crime.
Mr. Scott, thanks so much for being with us today. Would
you support a bill that ensures criminals are held accountable
rather than Progressive DAs allowing these offenses to go
unpunished?
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you for the question, Congressman. We
support anything that gives local law enforcement the tools to
keep criminals off the street and out of our businesses.
Mr. LALOTA. And what sort of tools do you think would help
those local district attorneys enforce our laws specifically
related to retail crime a little bit better?
Mr. SCOTT. I am afraid we are getting a little bit out of
my area of expertise here. If you ask me what we could do to
give them pancakes, I could be of more use.
Again, there are a lot of ideas around, but, you know, we
do what we can at our end. For instance, we support the Adopt-
a-Cop Programs in the community where it takes place. But
anything on the governmental side that gives law enforcement
the tools they need to keep the criminals from recidivism I
think is very valuable.
Mr. LALOTA. Yes, I would agree. And maybe at a future
meeting, I can take you up on that pancake offer.
Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. BEAN. Thank you very much.
Let's go the free State of Florida. Representative Salazar,
you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Pro Tempore.
And, indeed, the free State of Florida.
And, Mr. Scott, I am so sorry to hear what you are saying
about your business that you had to close down because of
crime. That is not the American way. The American way, 60
percent of business in the United States is composed of people
like you. So very sorry.
And BCI--and I wanted to share this with Chief Roach. I
come from the city of Miami. South Florida is experiencing at
this hour a 50-year low crime rate.
And apparently Governor DeSantis has done something
correctly, because he offered recently bonuses, $3,000, $5,000
bonuses for those police officers that wanted to come and join
any of the police stations or police officers groups in the
State. And 915 of them moved from other States and 47 from
Illinois.
I am not boasting. I am not happy in saying this. But we
are doing something right in Florida that apparently other
States are not.
And I just wanted to start with you, Chief, and just your
thoughts. My community is not experiencing, unfortunately, the
same thing that you just described. What are your thoughts?
Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congresswoman. I can't speak
directly on the laws in Florida because, quite frankly, I am
not familiar with them, but I can tell you bail reform has
really made it difficult to recruit and retain officers in New
York.
When officers hit their 20 years in New York, they
typically retire rather quickly, within 90 days. And whereas
before we would have officers stay 25, 30 years, as soon as
they hit their 20, they are usually out the door.
Ms. SALAZAR. So you were telling about the bail. We do not
have the cashless bail, which is something that works this way.
You are arrested. You walk out of jail without having to pay
bail.
In Florida, before you walk out of jail after you are
arrested, you have to go through a detention hearing. Is that
the case in the State of New York?
Chief ROACH. As I mentioned earlier, even with Class B
felonies, drug-related Class B felonies, it is an appearance
ticket. It is a piece of paper with a date and a time, and
typically it is 2 weeks down the road.
Ms. SALAZAR. And do those criminals or alleged criminals
come back to that court date?
Chief ROACH. Oftentimes, they do not.
Ms. SALAZAR. So then what happens after?
Chief ROACH. If they miss court three times, an arrest
warrant is issued.
Ms. SALAZAR. All right. And then what happens after the
arrest warrant is issued if they were to be arrested?
Chief ROACH. They would be brought back to our
jurisdiction, arraigned in front of the judge, and the judge
would have to make a determination at that point.
Ms. SALAZAR. So, basically, from what you are telling me is
the problem that the business owners are facing is not so much
that we don't have good laws on the books. It is that our
judicial partners are just not performing their part of the
bargain.
Chief ROACH. As I mentioned before, I think judges should
have the discretion to set bail, and I think that it would
improve the situation if we were able to arraign these
individuals after they were arrested in front of a judge.
Ms. SALAZAR. So what do you think needs to happen in States
like New York? Like I said, it is not close to my district, but
what do you think needs to happen in order to send a message to
the judges, to the elected officials and to the judicial
partners that this scenario needs to change? Otherwise, we will
not have any more stores.
Chief ROACH. I think conversations like this definitely
help. And I think that educating the public in knowing and
understanding that cases like assault third or rape third are
not considered violent in New York, and we can't do an
arraignment for a nonviolent crime.
Ms. SALAZAR. Right. So, Mr. Scott, people like you, so if
you were to have a magic wand and you could write the law and
if you could write the scenario that would be most ideal for
someone like you, what would that be?
Mr. SCOTT. Write a law to prevent the crime in the
restaurant?
Ms. SALAZAR. Yes. Like, your reality. What would, like,
your reality be in front of your pancake shop?
Mr. SCOTT. I return, once again, to the action that
supports local law enforcement to keep repeat criminals off the
street.
Ms. SALAZAR. So everything goes back to the police
officers?
Mr. SCOTT. Is goes back to supporting the local law
enforcement and preventing recidivism.
Ms. SALAZAR. And, finally, since no one has the monopoly on
compassion, I understand that those who are committing the
crimes may not be as privileged as some of the people that I
represent. What do you think we should then do with those
offenders in order to cajole them or to give them the incentive
not to continue with that type of activity?
Mr. BEAN. Answer the question. Please, Mr. Scott, go right
ahead. I am a little bit--since we got a little extra.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you.
Ms. SALAZAR. He is a nice guy, yeah. What could we do as a
society in order to--what can we do as a society? It has
nothing to do with political parties. It has nothing to do with
who is more compassionate. What can we do in order to help
those people not to engage in that type of activity which
doesn't take you anywhere, to jail?
Mr. SCOTT. I truly wish that I had the answer to that. I am
not a sociologist, and I know the causes are myriad. I think
one thing is that this committee has actually recognized the
problem and has actually taken steps to help rectify it. And I
think that is a very positive step.
Ms. SALAZAR. Any other Member of the panel that would like
to answer that?
Mr. BEAN. Let's not get crazy, Representative Salazar.
Ms. SALAZAR. I was a news reporter so I can ask.
Thank you. I will yield back.
Mr. BEAN. I will take your question in just a moment,
Representative Salazar, and let them have a--just to clean up
if there is anything left that wasn't said that you want to
say.
I am Aaron Bean, and I am going to recognize myself for the
last little bit of questioning.
Thank you for your patience today. Thanks for coming. I
know it is your own volition that you're here to tell a story.
Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes life--you get lucky in life.
I am a brandnew Congressman. I got lucky when Chair Williams--
Chairman Williams drafted me for this committee. I really
didn't understand or know about this committee until I had
spent a year on it. It is Small Business; it champions small
business. And it is so exciting. It is part of the American
Dream to have an idea or a better mousetrap and develop it and
push it. I have been involved in four small businesses myself,
and it does get your heart beating. People don't know. People
don't know that you work harder. You work longer. You get up
there, but you pay yourself last when you have the
responsibility of other--keeping your employees, you know, food
own their table. It is a great responsibility to happen. And
so, for the last year, we have had people sitting in your very
seats from around the country that have either launched or
started and bragging about their business, and they should. And
typically the message is ``get out of our way,'' you know,
``let government get out of our way, let us do the thing.'' But
they assume that government is going to enforce the rules. That
is the one, I think one of the key things that government
should do is just keep businesses safe and enforce the rules.
And something changed over the last 3 years. It was about
2020 or so, as I recollect. But I will throw that out to you
guys. It seems something changed that we didn't see. And see,
what America sees right now what my constituents see is, if you
go on social media or the internet, every third or fourth video
is a mob going into a store and just clearing shelves. They are
harassing customers at restaurants. They are just engaging in
lawlessness that we have never seen before, and that is
definitely a threat to small businesses.
So my lead off question is to Chief Roach. You have been in
law enforcement for 20 years. What happened? What happened in
the last 3 years that has--had the bottom falling out? And why
is lawlessness the law of the land right now? Why are we--it
seems that we are just going down the toilet in enforcing the
law. What are your thoughts, Chief Roach?
Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman.
I would start with the pandemic. I think, when the pandemic
started, we certainly saw a rise in crime. And, following that,
in that timeframe, we had bail reform. And, as I have mentioned
ad nauseam today, it is a continual arrest of the same
individuals over and over and over again. That is it.
Mr. BEAN. Why don't we just keep them--it seems like if we
could keep them in jail, wouldn't that make law enforcement a
lot easier? And then Elmer's Restaurants would have less to
worry about, is that--would that be a fair statement, Chief
Roach?
Chief ROACH. Well, I certainly think that, as I mentioned
before, giving the judges the discretion to do that would be a
nice thing.
Mr. BEAN. Is it true that, I mean it sounds crazy, but we
live in a crazy world, and this is a crazy town, that if we
lock up bad guys, they are less likely to commit future crimes.
Is that true?
Chief ROACH. I would agree with that statement.
Mr. BEAN. That is the takeaway. If there is one thing that
I think this committee could learn or at least the world can
learn from locking up bad guys, crimes goes down, which is
something else.
We haven't spoken a lot about anti-Semitism. I was on
another committee that talked about anti-Semitism in education.
It is shocking. Review the tape. You probably have already
watched it when we had presidents of our elite universities.
But, Ms. Rez, you also have talked about that anti-Semitism
is in small business. We have seen it in restaurants. We have
seen vandalism. What can you say that hasn't been said that we
need to know that this is a real problem?
Ms. REZ. I think the issue is, again, as I said ad nauseam,
is that the legislation is there, our judicial partners are not
properly executing it.
So there was an incident in May 2021 where there was a
violent assault on a Jewish man. And the perpetrator, the
attacker, appeared in court and was given an appearance ticket,
essentially being let out on to the street. He then publicly
stated, which The New York Post picked up, that he would,
quote, ``happily do it again.'' This is so frightening in this
current day and age to be a Jew in America, whether it is a
small business owner, whether it is civilian, whether it is a
Congressman. And it is just honestly unfathomable that it is
happening----
Mr. BEAN. We are not locking up bad guys.
Ms. REZ.--in 2023, 2024. Excuse me.
Mr. BEAN. Thank you right there. Thank you for bringing
that forward.
My last question I am going to throw it open if somebody
else wants to jump in. Mr. Scott, thanks for coming. The story
of the Elmer family starting their business from scratch, and
now you have the big responsibility of leading them. And crime
is a theme today, and it is a challenge, but there is something
else, a great storm that is headed towards small business, and
it is the National Labor Relations Board rule change that says
small businesses may be responsible for the working conditions
of franchise employees, contract employees, employees that
really do not come under your purview, but they are going to
say you have to take care of them. Tell us about that rule and
just how devastating could it be to small business.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Congressman.
The National Labor Relations Board, as you alluded, has
come up with an unneeded, overly broad rule that would make
franchise owners responsible for the actions of a franchisee
regarding their employees even though the franchisor has no
control over that. It would be devastating in the franchise
relations. Neither franchisors nor franchisees want this. The
current standard of direct and immediate control has worked
well for years and appreciate you supporting that. I would urge
every Congressman--I would ask them for their support on H.R.
98, which----
Mr. BEAN. It is by John James from Michigan that the House
is set to vote on that rule. We have seen stores close due to
crime. We have seen small businesses close due to crime. Could
we see stores close because of this rule change if it is not
corrected? That is a toss-up question, but, Jerry Scott, you
are up first. Could we see stores close? Is that a possibility?
Small businesses could get hurt by this rule close even?
Mr. SCOTT. Well, there are sort two parts there. One part
is absolutely small businesses would be hurt by this, and it
will definitely discourage franchising, and it will make the
franchisor/franchisee relationship less supportive of each
other simply because, ``Hey, you do that, and I am responsible
for it.''
Mr. BEAN. Yeah.
Mr. SCOTT. And will we see businesses close? I can't
predict the future, but I can tell you that this would be a
very, very wet blanket on expansion of the economy and
expansion of small businesses. Most, many people get their
start through franchising so they can be in business for
themselves but not by themselves. The NLRB rule threatens that
dramatically.
Mr. BEAN. Amen, amen. Thank you for coming forward.
And now we have saved the best for last, ladies and
gentlemen. Let's go to the State of Texas. He is just the Chair
of this committee, and it is my great honor to recognize him
for as much time as he may consume, the Chairman Williams. You
are recognized, Chair Williams. Welcome back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. I appreciate it very much,
but you know I simply want to thank you all for being here
today. I think that you've seen a committee that sometimes you
don't see often. We truly have bipartisan agreement on a lot of
things. We are not unhappy people. And I think we also
understand small business is the backbone of our country, 75
percent of the payroll, 75 percent of workforce is generated by
all of us.
Talking about franchises, I am a franchisee. I am a
Chrysler Dodge Jeep dealer. So I think we are heading in the
right direction, but there are things that we have got to
change, things we have got to talk about. A lot of it does
begin locally but also can end up here to where we get our
country going again and to where Main Street America begins to
have the effect it has had on this country for over 200 years.
So I want to thank you all of you for taking time to come
today. I know it gets very busy. I want to thank Congressman
Bean for filling in for me, and I turn it back to you, sir.
Mr. BEAN. Wow. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to thank all the witnesses. Going forward, you
will always get to say, ``I testified before Congress,'' and we
appreciate your testimony today.
Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to
submit additional materials or written questions for the
witnesses to the Chair, which will then be forwarded to the
witnesses.
And, of course, we would like to ask the witnesses to
please respond promptly. I know you will because you did just
an amazing job each of you today.
And, there being no further business to come before, this
committee, without objection, the committee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:11 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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