Hearing: Oversight of the U.S. Small Business Administration (Senate Small Business and Entrepreneurship, 2022)

Summary

A hearing titled Oversight of the U.S. Small Business Administration before the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, United States Senate, on April 27, 2022. Hon. Benjamin L. Cardin presided as Chairman of the Committee. The listed witness is Hon. Isabella Casillas Guzman, Administrator of the U.S. Small Business Administration, whose testimony and prepared statement are followed by responses to questions submitted by senators. The contents also list opening statements by Chairman Cardin and Ranking Member Rand Paul, a letter from the National Association of Federally Insured Credit Unions, and further letters submitted by senators. The transcript closes with the Committee adjourned at 4:04 p.m.

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Full text

                                                           S. HRG. 117–326

   OVERSIGHT OF THE U.S. SMALL BUSINESS
             ADMINISTRATION



                        HEARING
                             BEFORE THE


   COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
      AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
                                OF THE


             UNITED STATES SENATE
       ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
                          SECOND SESSION


                            APRIL 27, 2022


  Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship




                               (
        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov




                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
48–246 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2023
      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

               ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS



                  BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland, Chairman
                     RAND PAUL, Kentucky, Ranking Member
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington             MARCO RUBIO, Florida
JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire          JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts        TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey             JONI ERNST, Iowa
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware         JAMES M. INHOFE, Oklahoma
MAZIE HIRONO, Hawaii                   TODD YOUNG, Indiana
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois              JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                    JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, Colorado            ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas
                      SEAN MOORE, Democratic Staff Director
                  WILLIAM HENDERSON, Republican Staff Director




                                    (II)
                                         C O N T E N T S

                                               OPENING STATEMENTS
                                                                                                                            Page
Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., Chairman, a U.S. Senator from Maryland ..............                                               1
Paul, Hon. Rand, Ranking Member, a U.S. Senator from Kentucky ..................                                              3

                                                          WITNESS
Guzman, Hon. Isabella Casillas, Administrator, U.S. Small Business
 AdministrationWashington, D.C. ........................................................................                     25

                 ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED
Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L.
    Opening statement ...........................................................................................             1
Davidson, Jonathan C.
    Letter dated April 27, 2022 .............................................................................                20
Guzman, Hon. Isabella Casillas
    Testimony ..........................................................................................................     25
    Prepared statement ..........................................................................................            28
    Responses to questions submitted by Chairman Cardin and Senators
      Hirono, Hickenlooper, Rubio, Inhofe, Young, and Marshall ......................                                        62
National Association of Federally Insured Credit Unions
    Letter dated April 26, 2022 .............................................................................                60
Paul, Hon. Rand
    Opening statement ...........................................................................................             3
    Letter dated April 15, 2021 .............................................................................                 8
    Letter dated April 15, 2021 .............................................................................                 9
    Letter dated May 18, 2021 ...............................................................................                11
    Letter dated May 6, 2021 .................................................................................               19
Senators Paul, Rubio, Risch, Scott, Ernst, Inhofe, Young, Kennedy, Hawley,
  and Marshall ........................................................................................................
    Letter dated April 15, 2021 .............................................................................                 5
Senators Paul, Marshall, Risch, Rubio, Inhofe, Ernst, Kennedy, Hawley, Scott,
  and Young .............................................................................................................
    Letter dated April 13, 2022 .............................................................................                16
    Letter dated June 9, 2022 ................................................................................               22




                                                              (III)
  OVERSIGHT OF THE U.S. SMALL BUSINESS
            ADMINISTRATION

                  WEDNESDAY, APRIL 27, 2022

                           UNITED STATES SENATE,
                       COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                  AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP,
                                             Washington, DC.
  The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:38 p.m., in Room
428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Benjamin L. Cardin,
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
  Present: Senators Cardin, Cantwell, Shaheen, Markey, Booker,
Coons, Hirono, Rosen, Hickenlooper, Paul, Risch, Scott, Ernst,
Young, Hawley, and Marshall.
    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN,
      CHAIRMAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM MARYLAND
   Chairman CARDIN. The Senate Small Business and Entrepre-
neurship Committee will come to order.
   Let me apologize for being a few minutes late. We just got back
from the memorial service funeral for Secretary Albright, which
was a fitting tribute to her incredible service to our country. Sev-
eral members of our Committee were at the memorial service, so
literally the buses just got back to the Hill. So my apologies.
   Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us today, Administrator
Guzman. We are now more than 2 years into the COVID–19 pan-
demic and 1 year into the Biden administration. So this hearing is
an opportunity for our Committee to receive an update on the
Small Business Administration’s implementation of COVID–19 re-
lief programs and learn how the Administration’s Fiscal Year 2023
budget request will fund long-term initiatives to support our Na-
tion’s small businesses, especially those in underserved commu-
nities.
   Since the beginning of the pandemic, Congress has created sev-
eral new programs to support small businesses, including the Pay-
check Protection Program, the EIDL Advance Grant Program,
Shuttered Venue Operators Grant Program, the Restaurant Revi-
talization Fund, and several others. We have also appropriated
more than $1 trillion to the SBA to fund these initiatives. Congress
gave the SBA an immense task, and I remain grateful for the thou-
sands of SBA employees who worked around the clock to disburse
this aid. They did an incredible service to our country and I offer
my sincere thanks.
   Several independent studies have confirmed that the SBA’s im-
plementation of these programs was largely successful and im-
                                (1)
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proved over time, especially in terms of equity, the improvements,
as a result of the thoughtful policies implemented by Congress as
well as the efforts of the Biden administration to invest in under-
served entrepreneurs.
   Today, after enduring the deepest economic contraction in sev-
eral generations, our economy is growing at the fastest rate since
1984. We are back, but the SBA’s importance has not diminished.
If anything, the SBA has an even more important role to play in
the months and years ahead. In the short term there are still many
hard-hit industries that need support.
   Earlier this month I introduced bipartisan legislation with Sen-
ator Roger Wicker to provide additional relief to the more than
177,000 Restaurant Revitalization Fund applicants who remain un-
funded, as well as other struggling industries. I just remind our
Committee, these restaurants owners of small businesses were in
line, they were qualified, they did everything right. There were just
not the resources available in order to fund them, and as a matter
of equity and need we need to act on that bill.
   In the long term, SBA must be equipped to meet the needs of the
historic number of Americans engaging in entrepreneurship. Ac-
cording to the Census Bureau, Americans registered a record 5.4
million new businesses in 2021, which exceeded the prior record of
4.4 million new business registrations in 2020. Remarkably, the
surge is being driven by entrepreneurs in some of our most under-
served communities, with minorities, especially minority women,
driving the surge.
   President Biden has made supporting minorities, women, and en-
trepreneurs in rural communities one of his Administration’s high-
est priorities. It is to unleash the full potential of our Nation, our
economy opportunity and economic growth, creating not only good
jobs but initiatives and innovation that drives our economy.
   The experience of the pandemic has demonstrated that the his-
toric barriers that underserved entrepreneurs face are not insur-
mountable. Administrator Guzman, I am very pleased that the Ad-
ministration’s budget request doubled down on lessons learned dur-
ing the pandemic. In particular, I believe the Administration’s re-
quest to increase funding for the SBA entrepreneurial development
programs would help create the strong entrepreneurial ecosystems
that new small business owners need to succeed.
   Last week, the Administrator and I participated in a roundtable
discussion with minority small business owners in Baltimore about
the Community Navigator Pilot Program. It is clear from that dis-
cussion that the SBA has an opportunity to leverage the inroads
it has made into underserved communities during the pandemic to
unleash their untapped growth potential. I am also pleased that
the budget request proposes an increase in lending authority for
the 7(a) and 504 loan programs. The additional lending authority
will further bridge the historic gaps that exist in private capital
markets to ensure that entrepreneurs in all communities have the
capital they need to start and grow successful businesses.
   Taking advantage of the current boom in entrepreneurship will
also require action from Congress. First, creating a direct lending
program at the SBA would allow for another avenue for access to
capital, filling the current gaps in our financial ecosystem. A re-
                                  3

imagined direct lending program would allow entrepreneurs to
apply direct to the SBA or through community lenders for a Fed-
eral loan. As we know, many underserved entrepreneurs are dis-
couraged from applying for a loan because of the high rates of re-
jection.
   Second, we must codify the Community Advantage Loan Pro-
gram. The loan program is particularly successful at getting capital
to underserved entrepreneurs. I was proud to join the Adminis-
trator, Vice President Kamala Harris, and Secretary Gina
Raimondo at Howard University at the beginning of this month
when we announced that the Administration will extend the Com-
munity Advantage for two additional years and implement changes
such as increasing the maximum loan size and expanding the num-
ber of lenders that participate in Community Advantage, to make
the program more helpful to small businesses.
   And finally, Congress must give the SBA the tools and resources
to nurture the next generation of entrepreneurs by creating a net-
work of incubators and accelerators on the campuses of our Na-
tion’s historical black colleges and universities, minority-serving in-
stitutions, and community colleges.
   Administrator Guzman, I want to close my remarks by thanking
you once again for joining us today. You have now been in your role
for more than a year, so I am looking forward to hearing more
about what you have done to improve these programs as well as
the insight you have gained in this time in order to help accom-
plish those goals.
   And with that let me turn to the Ranking Member, Senator Paul.
          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RAND PAUL,
             A U.S. SENATOR FROM KENTUCKY
   Senator PAUL. This hearing comes at a perilous time for small
businesses. Inflation is at a 40-year high. The supply chain crisis
is keeping goods offshore instead of on the shelves. Worker short-
ages across the country are strangling small businesses. The Biden
administration needs to be held accountable for its policy failures.
But accountability in government requires transparency. Federal
employees, from the President’s Cabinet on down, have an obliga-
tion to be forthcoming when the Congress asks questions on behalf
of our constituents.
   Welcome back to our Committee, Administrator Guzman. But as
I have said before, I voted for your confirmation in a good-faith ef-
fort to establish a constructive working relationship with you as
administrator. I hoped you would abide, by the explicit commit-
ment you made during your nomination hearing to provide this
Committee with information it requests.
   Unfortunately, you have not honored that commitment. Your
agency and the officials you lead have repeatedly demonstrated an
unwillingness to answer basic questions. Most recently, we sent a
letter in January. It took 105 days for you to respond. You re-
sponded yesterday, and still did not respond with the information
that was requested.
   When your associate administrator came before this Committee
in February, he refused to answer a simple, straightforward ques-
tion—do you believe the taxpayer has a right to know how you
                                 4

spend their money? I do not think it gets any simpler than that,
and yet we could not get an answer.
  Likewise, for more than a year, over a year, we have been asking
for information about nearly $100 million in loans given by the
Small Business Administration unlawfully to Planned Parenthood.
Since February 2021, members of this Committee have sent seven
letters to you requesting information regarding SBA’s continued
approval of PPP loans. Despite a clear determination, these entities
were ineligible by the previous administration. We have not gotten
a clear-cut answer that the policy has changed or that there has
been a directive to change the policy, nor have we received the in-
formation that we have requested, specifically the communications
between you and Planned Parenthood.
  I request unanimous consent at this point to enter these letters
into the record.
  Chairman CARDIN. Without objection.
  [The information referred to follows:]
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   Senator PAUL. The information requested in these letters is nec-
essary for the Committee to conduct adequate oversight of the
SBA’s handling of these loans. Specifically, these requests have in-
cluded unredacted copies of agency records related to Planned Par-
enthood loans, records related to any Planned Parenthood affiliate’s
application for the loans, communications from or with any
Planned Parenthood affiliate or their representatives, the names of
the SBA employee who actually, if it was actually, conducted a for-
mal or informal review of any of Planned Parenthood’s affiliate’s
eligibility for loans.
   Not only have you ignored these written requests, you have
failed to produce the requested documents, even after the Chair-
man and I met personally with you or with your representative to
ask for this. Instead of cooperating with the Committee and pro-
viding the requested information, you have spent the last year ob-
structing our legitimate oversight efforts. It took you 3 months to
tell us you were not going to give us anything from the last letter.
We sent it January 11th. You replied yesterday, or someone in your
office did, to say, ‘‘Take a hike. We are not going to give you any
information.’’ How you can possibly think that is transparency is
beyond me.
   The SBA has forgiven at least 37 PPP loans to Planned Parent-
hood. Rest assured, members of this Committee will not stop seek-
ing answers as to why over $77.9 million in taxpayer money was
illegally given and now forgiven to Planned Parenthood.
   It seems the lawlessness of this Administration is not exclusive
to the SBA. Federal law requires the Secretary of the Treasury to
appear before this Committee to testify at regular intervals. It is
the law. Secretary Mnuchin fulfilled this responsibility to do so.
Secretary Yellen is nowhere to be found. We have been asking, as
of today, for the last 366 days for her to appear, as she is mandated
by law.
   Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record a letter to
Secretary Yellen from all Committee Republicans requesting that
she participate in this hearing or schedule an alternative time to
appear as required by statute. I will note that we received a re-
sponse, once again a few hours before this meeting, from an Assist-
ant Secretary for Legislative Affairs, claiming that Secretary Yellen
has delegated her legal obligation to testify to the Deputy Sec-
retary. Can you imagine if a Secretary of State said, ‘‘Oh well, you
know, I think I will just send my Assistant Secretary of State to
Foreign Relations,’’ or the Defense Department, you know, says,
‘‘Well, you know, I just do not think I will go to Armed Services
this year. Maybe I will send my Deputy.’’
   We write laws. We write laws so we can have oversight of the
Executive branch, and Yellen is just basically thumbing her nose
and say, ‘‘Oh, I just do not think I will show up. Maybe I will send
my Under Secretary.’’ You do not get to create the laws. We did,
and you would think there would be bipartisan support for adher-
ing to the law and having the Secretary of Treasury actually ap-
pear.
   The law passed by Congress is clear that Secretary Yellen must
appear. It is not happening. Secretary Yellen does not have the
power to rewrite the law and to avoid being scrutinized by Con-
                               15

gress. I fear that without a subpoena she will continue to openly
defy Federal law.
  Administrator Guzman, thank you for being here today, and I
look forward to hearing whether or not you will finally answer the
questions and will release the information that has been requested
on Planned Parenthood.
  Chairman CARDIN. Did you want to put in the record the letter
to Secretary Yellen?
  Senator PAUL. Yes, if you can.
  Chairman CARDIN. Without objection. And the reply from Treas-
ury will also be made part of the record.
  [The information referred to follows:]
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   Chairman CARDIN. If I might just comment briefly on the two
points you raised. First, in regard to Planned Parenthood, and I
might say it also involves other organizations in addition to
Planned Parenthood, such as YMCAs and Boys Clubs, and issues
like that. We have been going around on this for a long time, and
I regret that the casualty has been that the Deputy Administrator
has not been confirmed, even though that person is eminently
qualified and no one challenges the person’s qualifications.
   We have tried to do everything we can to accommodate the re-
quest for information. So I recognize we are in disagreement on
this, but I do believe that the agency has provided all the informa-
tion in regard to the circumstances, including the transparency of
every loan and forgiveness that was given. So I just want the
record to reflect we have a disagreement on that. I do not join the
Ranking Member in his concerns.
   In regard to Secretary Yellen, I agree. I thought Secretary Yellen
should testify before this Committee, and I so told you that. We
have now gotten a formal reply from Treasury saying that she is
formally delegating that to the Deputy Secretary, who, by the way,
is a very competent person who has control over a lot of the pro-
grams that we are interested in. If the Ranking Member desires,
I will arrange for the Deputy Secretary to testify before us. If that
is not adequate, then we will continue to hold out hope for the Sec-
retary herself to appear before us. But we can talk about that at
another time because I do agree we should hear from Treasury in
this Committee.
   With that let me turn it over to Administrator Guzman.
 STATEMENT OF HON. ISABELLA GUZMAN, ADMINISTRATOR,
        U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
  Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you so much. Good afternoon, Chairman
Cardin, Ranking Member Paul, as well as the distinguished mem-
bers of the Committee. Thanks for the opportunity to appear before
you today, in person, to discuss President Biden’s Fiscal Year 2023
budget request for the U.S. Small Business Administration.
  The President’s budget requests a total of $1.06 billion to foster
growth and opportunity across America’s economy by supporting
the SBA’s critical small business programs and disaster assistance.
This funding level generates practical investments in economic
progress, and with your support allows us to continue delivering
crucial programs and services for a surging wave of American en-
trepreneurs.
  Over the past year I have visited small businesses across 28
states and Puerto Rico. I have witnessed the strength and resil-
ience of American entrepreneurship first-hand. Despite hardships
from the pandemic, America’s small businesses and innovative
startups are creating new jobs, powering our economy, strength-
ening our global competitiveness, and supporting working families,
and Americans are launching businesses at record rates. Business
applications have risen more than 30 percent from pre-pandemic
level, and as the Chairman said, in 2021, 5.4 million Americans ap-
plied to start a business.
  One of this Administration’s top priorities is making sure the op-
portunities of this growing economy are reaching all Americans.
                                 26

President Biden often says that ability is spread evenly but oppor-
tunity is not, and that is important because building equity, ensur-
ing access and opportunity are open to all is not just the right
thing to do but it is good for business and the economy.
   Thanks to historic legislation passed by Congress, the SBA has
been able to deliver critical relief and help millions of small busi-
nesses, especially in our hardest-hit communities, survive the pan-
demic.
   In Fiscal Year 2021, the SBA distributed more than $450 billion
in financial relief through the Paycheck Protection Program, the
COVID Economic Injury Disaster Loan, and Advance programs, the
Restaurant Revitalization Fund, and the Shuttered Venue Opera-
tors Grant program. These vital relief funds saved jobs in every
community in the country.
   Now we are delivering on the promise of PPP forgiveness. To
date, 87 percent of all eligible PPP recipients have submitted for-
giveness applications, and nearly all, 99.4 percent of all qualified
applicants, have had their loans partially or fully forgiven.
   SBA has not only delivered on pandemic relief but our core cap-
ital programs, which support hundreds of thousands of jobs, are
breaking records. Demand for SBA capital support is outpacing the
resources available, with a 62 percent increase in 7(a) loans ap-
proved, and a 41 percent increase in 504 loans approved.
   Given the high demand for SBA’s capital programs and their ef-
fectiveness for our small businesses, President Biden is requesting
a 13 percent increase across our core programs for a total of $71
billion.
   In addition, the budget recognizes that SBA needs additional
support to service $361 billion in COVID EIDL. The budget re-
quests authority to reprogram existing balances and targeted
COVID EIDL advance to support and service loans for the 3.9 mil-
lion borrowers.
   A large percentage of these borrowers will start making pay-
ments in the months ahead, requiring SBA to shift from origination
to servicing. As we enter this new phase of recovery, SBA must
provide the borrowers with the needed resources as well as the
quality customer service that they deserve.
   While my written testimony outlines other budget priorities, one
additional key area I want to highlight is our efforts to upgrade our
systems and processes to detect and prevent fraud. During this Ad-
ministration, the SBA has acted quickly to protect taxpayer dollars,
first by restoring controls and deploying new technology to mitigate
fraud. Our work to implement or enhance fraud controls has been
recognized by Federal accountability agencies and watchdogs.
   I also recently announced the creation of a new Fraud Risk Man-
agement Board to replace the Fraud Risk Management Council.
This new board provides the oversight and the agency-wide coordi-
nation recommended by the GAO.
   Additionally, I designated a Special Counsel for Enterprise Risk
to work directly in my office to further limit fraud and risk across
the agency, in coordination with this established fraud manage-
ment framework.
   To recover taxpayer funds we are working closely with the Office
of Inspector General and other Federal authorities to refer sus-
                                27

pected fraud to law enforcement authorities. Effect stewardship is
necessary for the SBA to achieve our mission. I am committed to
working with stakeholders, including Congress, to protect SBA’s
programs from abuse and ensure that legitimate businesses have
a clear path to access the financial resources Congress has created
for them.
  Thank you again, Chairman Cardin and Ranking Member Paul
and the distinguished members. I look forward to your questions.
  [The prepared statement of Ms. Guzman follows:]
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   Chairman CARDIN. Thank you, Madam Administrator, and once
again thank you for your leadership. We will now start a round of
5-minute questions.
   I want to ask first, if I might, about the SBIR and STTR pro-
grams. I mention that because they are set to expire at the end of
September. We do have legislation that is heading toward con-
ference in the COMPETES Act, where the House has passed a
clean, 5-year extension of these programs. We are hopeful that
there will be some action in the conference committee.
   I have heard from our national security team and people at DoD
that they are extremely concerned if there is a lapse in the pro-
gram. I know by the work of small business, high-tech companies
in Maryland under this program the type of work they are doing
for our national security and defense in innovation could not be du-
plicated by companies that are—if we do not have the SBIR and
STTR programs.
   My question to you is, how important is it for us to avoid a lapse
in these programs, and in reauthorizing, is it important that we do
not put restrictions in that could make it difficult for this program
to continue to operate under its current authorities?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you, Senator. I do share that this SBIR/
STTR program is really strong for our Nation’s innovation. You
know, Qualcomm, 23andMe, great companies have come out of this
program, and we know that it is very necessary, as America’s seed
fund to continue to provide this early stage capital, in order for us
to stay competitive globally in such key industries and tech-
nologies.
   Any disruption, of course, would be challenging for those small
businesses or those innovators. They need certainty and not having
that within this program would definitely be a huge lapse in our
ability to innovate as a country. And so I would encourage what-
ever we can do to continue to extend that for 5 years as well as
not inhibit it with any restrictions. I know that our partners, the
11 agencies that administer this program, have continued to ad-
vance their objectives and find, through our small businesses, inno-
vative solutions to problems.
   Chairman CARDIN. And I just note that we have extended this
program, with bipartisan co-sponsorship, both in the House and the
Senate, so it has enjoyed strong bipartisan support. The House ac-
tion was done in the bipartisan manner over a long period of time.
In fact, we have had legislation to make it permanent that has
been supported by both Democrats and Republicans.
   September is coming up soon, so it is important that we express
support for this. I would just urge you to be engaged in the con-
ference activities to try to get this done.
   I want to talk about direct lending for one moment. I see that
is in your budget, if I am correct on that. I think it was an initia-
tive by the Administration, and it is certainly an area that I think
is important.
   Could you explain why a direct lending program would help fill
some of the voids we currently have in regard to access to capital
by small businesses that traditionally do not have the confidence
of the banking community. They may be the smaller of the small
businesses. We know there has been a decline in loans to the
                                 38

smaller companies. The commercial lenders like to have larger
loans. They are easier to manage.
   Can you explain the need for direct lending?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Yes, of course, and broadly we are asserting our in-
terest and continued research in this area within the budget. No
specific dollar amount requested.
   SBA, of course, has been doing direct lending through its disaster
products to communities, both homeowners, renters, as well as
businesses, since inception in 1953. With the small business capital
access, the issues of barriers are strong, especially for underserved
communities. Forty-four percent of small businesses get their cap-
ital through the banking system as well. Even in SBA’s lending we
have seen a decline in small-dollar loans, especially $50,000 and
under, but $150,000 and under in general, with less lenders in that
space. As you mentioned, they are still complicated loans to do and
just as expensive as a larger loan.
   The SBA’s intent with direct lending is to get engaged and pro-
vide a simply alternative product for those institutions that may
want support in financing certain business. It could be a commu-
nity bank that is not underwriting restaurants but wants to retain
that depository relationship and that customer and continue to
support that business. And so they could access the SBA’s direct
lending vehicle with the eligibility criteria and underwriting stand-
ards that we would create and hold ourselves accountable to the
same standard as them in order to fill that gap.
   That is the intent of the program, and it is really with the pur-
pose of trying to simplify lending at the SBA and continue to work
through our banking partners as well as others.
   Chairman CARDIN. And last, let me just have you comment on
why the Administration decided to extend the Community Advan-
tage program and expand its availability. Tell us why that was im-
portant to continue that program.
   Ms. GUZMAN. For the same reason of these huge capital gaps, es-
pecially in small-dollar lending that we are seeing. We found, espe-
cially during PPP and during the relief programs, that our CDFIs,
our community financial institutions, our CDFIs and our CDCs,
stepped in and provided support for underserved, underbanked
communities.
   And so we want to make sure that these businesses can be suc-
cess. Community Advantage would simplify eligibility as well as
underwriting, but as well, allow us to extend the pilot and allow
more lenders in, so that we can get more CDFIs.
   Chairman CARDIN. Thank you. Senator Paul.
   Senator PAUL. Do you believe the taxpayer has a right to know
how you spend their money?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Most definitely. Yes, sir.
   Senator PAUL. Do you believe Congress has a right to know how
the money is spent, oversee the process to examine the paper trail
of how decisions are made and how the money is spent?
   Ms. GUZMAN. As I shared with you, I believe in transparency,
and I feel like there is a strong responsibility to continue that col-
laboration and open dialog.
   Senator PAUL. Have you released to us unredacted copies of the
agency records related to Planned Parenthood’s PPP loans?
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   Ms. GUZMAN. We have responded to letters. We have also pro-
vided you letters to Planned Parenthood entities from the SBA, all
of the datasets underlying PPP with specific analysis of the
Planned Parenthood, in particular——
   Senator PAUL. We have specifically requested all of the records.
Have you released all of the records to us?
   Ms. GUZMAN. There are a couple of items that we have not, in-
cluding, as you mentioned, the names of the staff that were in the
process of review. That information as well as the proprietary indi-
vidual applications, the agency——
   Senator PAUL. Have you released to us the communications be-
tween you and Planned Parenthood?
   Ms. GUZMAN. We provided you with the letters from SBA to
Planned Parenthood entities, yes.
   Senator PAUL. You have not released to us the communications
from Planned Parenthood to you as well, in support of their appli-
cation.
   Ms. GUZMAN. We have not released any proprietary information.
   Senator PAUL. Have you released to us the information or the de-
liberative process that went into reversing the Trump administra-
tion’s policy that had decided that it was illegal to give this money
and that they should give this money back, it was illegal to give
the money to Planned Parenthood? Have you released to us the de-
liberative process, any written material, on how you came to a dif-
ferent conclusion than the Trump administration?
   Ms. GUZMAN. For clarity there was no policy or law or anything
that the Trump administration put forward. There was a prelimi-
nary determination letter——
   Senator PAUL. There was no deliberative process on your part?
There was no discussion? There was never a discussion 1 day that
says, ‘‘Oh, you know what? We think they did not do this and it
is not final.’’ You would think you would have a meeting or some-
thing and you would have like a transcript of the meeting where
so-and-so says, ‘‘Wow, that was a crazy idea and we object to that.’’
It just sort of happened and there was no discussion, meaning no
deliberation of a major policy that the Trump administration said
that this is illegal, because Planned Parenthood is so closely and
tightly controlled these do not qualify as individual small busi-
nesses. They are a big business, not a small business.
   It is not a small thing to reverse that. Are you telling me that
that was reversed with no discussion and no paper trail, and there
exists no paper at the Small Business Administration that explains
or codifies the deliberative process of how you changed your mind
on this?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Well, just to back up again from a factual basis
there was no policy implemented. We issue policies with informa-
tion notices——
   Senator PAUL. Well, it was, because they were told to send the
money back. They received letters to send the money back, so you
made a different decision. You cannot just say, ‘‘Oh, they never
made a decision so we did not reverse a decision.’’ You reversed the
decision, because instead of sending the money back to you—and
some of them, I think, were attempting to send the money back to
                                40

you, and I assume they sent you a check and then you sent it back
to them. Did that ever happen?
   Ms. GUZMAN. What I am happy to——
   Senator PAUL. Did that ever happen? That is a specific question.
   Ms. GUZMAN. I cannot——
   Senator PAUL. Did any of the Planned Parenthoods send you
money back, like they were told to, and then did you turn around
and send it back to them?
   Ms. GUZMAN. I cannot speak to any specific ones, but let me
share with you the action taken——
   Senator PAUL. So if I write you a letter——
   Ms. GUZMAN [continuing]. By——
   Senator PAUL [continuing]. In 3 months will you not respond to
me again? The thing is, this is not a dispute over whether or not
you are being transparent. It is not a dispute over whether or not
you have given the documents. You clearly have not given us the
documents. We want the documents to see how Planned Parent-
hood argued they are eligible for these loans. The Trump adminis-
tration said they were not. They said they were. You say there was
never any deliberative process and there is no paper. I do not know
whether to trust you or not. But I cannot imagine an agency like
yours does not at least have a meeting, there are no minutes to a
meeting where you changed a major decision like this? It is $100
million and no one ever said anything. There is no written docu-
ments?
   You have not been transparent with us, and you have not given
us what we asked for. We cannot do the oversight of whether or
not Planned Parenthood is a small business or a big business un-
less you give us the information.
   Ms. GUZMAN. If I may——
   Senator PAUL. You have turned this into a partisan position,
whereas there was a time when this was one of the least partisan
of all the committees in Washington. But your stonewalling has
made it into a partisan position where we cannot get together to
even meet to see if you can have an assistant because you will not
give us the data that we have asked for.
   Ms. GUZMAN. The action taken in response to this preliminary
determination letter was simply—which was defined again that
there were just approximately 400 businesses under a whole code,
including Planned Parenthood. All the action taken by me was to
put those approximately 400 borrowers back into processing, all of
them subject to the rules that were put forward by the agency. Of
course, those were interim final rule notices, all the FAQs, all the
information notices, not preliminary determinations.
   Senator PAUL. So the bottom line is you are not going to send
us the information we are asking for.
   Ms. GUZMAN. We have complied and sent you extensive informa-
tion.
   Senator PAUL. You have complied by not sending us what we
asked for. So what you are saying, in a public hearing, is you are
not going to send me the information we have asked for. And
where do you get the legal authority just to deny Congress what
they are asking for?
                                 41

   Ms. GUZMAN. The agency has historically not provided propri-
etary applicant information. In addition, the specific names of em-
ployees——
   Senator PAUL. This would be the arguments about whether you
are a small business or a big business. We already know the name
of the entity so that is no longer proprietary. We have heard of
Planned Parenthood. We all know that is what the dispute is
about. What their arguments are, about whether they are a big
business or a small business, you would think would be very objec-
tive and you would be happy to show that you went through item
this, this, and this, you had a meeting, you all voted that these five
things they adhered to and they did not.
   If that does not exist, it means I do not think you were doing
your job. If it exists and you will not give it to us, I think that is
reprehensible.
   Ms. GUZMAN. Well, Senator, I would love to offer you, again, I
know my team has offered to meet with your staff to review
these——
   Senator PAUL. We have tried for a year and you are not giving
us anything we have asked for. Every time we have asked we wait
3 months and you send us a letter, saying, ‘‘Oh well, we will give
you this and this, but we will not give you this.’’ We want to see
the communications. We want to see the deliberative process about
why you made this decision.
   Here is why I am also troubled by this, and I will end with this.
In testimony before Congress on November 16, 2021, you stated
that you were not aware of Planned Parenthood affiliates receiving
forgiveness on their loans. We now have the data, and apparently
they were forgiven on July 1st. So three, 4 months after their loans
were forgiven you come before us and say you do not have any idea
whether they have been forgiven or not.
   Ms. GUZMAN. I am not aware of individual loans, and so I be-
came aware when I cleared a letter to this Committee, which was
after that.
   Senator PAUL. Well, you are not aware of it but we have been
asking about it for a year. So I think it would be something that
would rise to your attention.
   But the bottom line is all it would take is if you really believe
what you said in the beginning, that you believe in transparency,
if you gave us the documents this could be over. But you have
stonewalled us back and forth, back and forth, over and over again.
No evidence of what the deliberative process was on how you re-
versed a major decision by the previous administration, and now no
documentation on what the arguments for why Planned Parent-
hood is either a small business or a big business.
   So I am disappointed, and will continue to be asking questions.
And the thing is that ultimately I think the taxpayers deserve bet-
ter.
   Chairman CARDIN. Let me just—because the Ranking Member
and I disagree as to the cooperation that we have received from the
SBA. Just to try to set the record straight, the previous administra-
tion, the Trump administration, made certain determinations in re-
gard to PPP loan applications, consistent with the law passed by
Congress, because I was part of the drafting, as was Senator Sha-
                                 42

heen, along with Senator Rubio and Senator Collins. And we did
provide for nonprofits. That was one of the issues we talked about,
and we did provide that those who have arrangements with similar
groups are not necessarily disqualified. It depends upon the affili-
ated rules that are used by the SBA.
   The Trump administration processed those loans and allowed
those loans to go forward. Then, I believe it was in January but
I am not sure of the exact date, but there was a letter sent out to
Planned Parenthood by the Trump administration that was some-
what of a perplexing letter, because it said they questioned their
eligibility; please send back the money or tell us why you are eligi-
ble.
   Each of the Planned Parenthood organizations that wanted to
proceed with the loan sent back a letter saying we fully comply, et
cetera. They sent a letter back. No further action was taken by the
Trump administration.
   The Trump administration also put a hold on about 400 organi-
zations that had questionable, or had to further explore whether
they were qualified for affiliation or not. When the Biden adminis-
tration came in, they released the holds, as I understand it, on the
400 organizations, saying if they comply, and there are standard
procedures for determining affiliation based upon control, they
would be able to be eligible, and if they did not, they were not.
   There was no change in policy. There was no change in policy by
the Trump administration. There was no change in policy by the
Biden administration. We have tried, on several occasions, working
with the Administrator, to get all the information to every member
of this Committee. What the Administration cannot provide is pro-
prietary information on individual applications, which is standard
practice of privacy. And second, they cannot provide information
that does not exist, and since there is no change in policy there is
no documentation of a change in policy.
   So I do not know how much more we can do on this. I have tried
to provide as much information as possible. And let me just remind
the Ranking Member this all started with the Deputy Adminis-
trator. We made arrangements for separate meetings to provide
substantial amount of information about the Deputy Administrator,
which was privacy information. We made it available so every
member of this Committee could see it.
   I share the Ranking Member’s desire for total transparency. I
think the Administration has provided that in regard to the re-
quest that you have made. I just really wanted to put that on the
record.
   Senator PAUL. One quick point. When we did finally get the in-
formation on the person that had been nominated they said, ‘‘We
will review this in private.’’ The same goes for any of this. It could
be any of the Planned Parenthood stuff could be reviewed in pri-
vate as well, if you do not want it out on the front page of the
newspaper.
   But the thing is, not revealing—there is an argument that goes
back and forth on what is an affiliated group and what is a big
business and what is a small business. I do not think that is a pro-
prietary sort of argument. And if it is, then I do not know how we
would ever do oversight. You know, what if an enormous Standard
                                 43

Oil of 1911 wants to be a small business? Would we not want to
see what their arguments are on why they are a small business or
why they are a large business and they get small business loans?
   So I really think that argumentation back and forth, from the ad-
vocate of the person who says, ‘‘No, I am not a big business, I am
a small business,’’ I just do not understand how that can be propri-
etary.
   Chairman CARDIN. I think we are having trouble interpretation
here. The rules for affiliation are well documented by the SBA.
There are specific guidelines that need to be followed in regard to
satisfying the affiliation rules. And in each of the applications that
was verified. I do not know what else we can say other than that.
Some of the information in verification could be proprietary, but I
am not exactly sure what you are looking for. Maybe I am con-
fused.
   Senator PAUL. What happened is the Trump administration said
they were a big business. The Biden administration says they are
a small business. So they were disqualified under the Trump ad-
ministration and they are qualified under the Biden administra-
tion. And so there was argumentation we assume made by Planned
Parenthood, through communications sent back to the Small Busi-
ness Administration, saying, ‘‘Hey, we think this is a wrong deci-
sion and we do not want to send our money back.’’
   I think some of them actually sent their money back, and I think
they should be honest with us. Did some Planned Parenthoods send
their money back? Will you answer that question?
   Chairman CARDIN. If I could just respond to that and then let
the Administrator respond. I think you are making an assumption
about the Trump administration which is not accurate and maybe
you need the information from the Trump administration, because
the Trump administration processed the loans. There is no indica-
tion that they had specific information to request this money back.
The letters went out but without documentation from the Trump
administration, not the Biden administration. So I think maybe it
is the Trump administration you are trying to get the information
from, which has not been an easy task for Members of Congress to
get information out of the Trump administration.
   Senator PAUL. No, this is information we know exists. It is from
the lawyers and/or advocates for Planned Parenthood. These letters
went back and forth. So Small Business Administration said, ‘‘You
are not qualified. Send the money back,’’ and then they said, ‘‘Oh
no, we are qualified, and these are our arguments.’’ Those argu-
ments should be public record and we should be able to see what
are the arguments for—you are right, the rules should be fairly
clear, what is an affiliate. They are longstanding rules. But that
should be out in the open.
   And, you know, it is sort of like are you a contractor or an em-
ployee? There is a whole checklist of things you look at it. But we
would want to know what is the argumentation, because there are
people who believe that Planned Parenthood, one, has the same
legal defense for all of their affiliates, has the same sort of set of
rules, and there is evidence that Planned Parenthood cannot make
individual decisions without permission from the parent company.
                                  44

   So there are arguments, at least on the side of them being con-
sidered to be a big business, not a small business. But even if we
lose that debate we would want to see what was the debate, what
was the discussion back and forth, because they did reverse the
Trump decision not to give them the money, and then they gave
them the money.
   Chairman CARDIN. I think confusion here—and then we will go
back to the questioning—I think the confusion is that the deter-
minations were made by the Trump administration. The Biden ad-
ministration released a hold. They looked at the records that were
submitted, the information that was submitted. There was not a
hearing. There was not a discussion. This was paper being proc-
essed.
   Remember talking about, in this case, hundreds of loans. There
is not a day set aside for argument. It is a process at SBA, looking
at the material submitted by the applicant to see if they comply
with the test. I assume that is the process that was used. That is
the documentation. There is no verbal documentations here. This
was a processing process.
   So I think that is our confusion, and the confusion where we
seem to be at deadlock is that the original determination was made
by the Trump administration. There is no documentation for why
that letter was sent out, asking for the money back. But it never
was implemented because they did not follow up after the reply
was sent in by Planned Parenthood. Then comes in the Biden ad-
ministration and they are looking at this in puzzlement because
they have 400 that are in this category and only Planned Parent-
hood got the letters. They do not understand why. What the Ad-
ministration does, I think, is the right thing, is tell the processors,
‘‘Check to make sure they qualify under our rules, based upon the
information that has been submitted.’’
   Senator PAUL. I think that decisionmaking process involved read-
ing the advocates for Planned Parenthood’s arguments for why
they are a small business, not a big business.
   Chairman CARDIN. They may have read the correspondence.
   Senator PAUL. That is what I mean. So that correspondence
would be the advocacy. And while there might not be a deliberative
process where they say why, we would see the argumentation, both
for and again, or at least for why they are a small business. But
we are being prevented from seeing Planned Parenthood’s argu-
mentation for why they are a small business.
   Chairman CARDIN. If I am right I think one of the—I might be
wrong on this, but I think one of the Planned Parenthoods released
their letter. I might be wrong on that.
   Senator PAUL. The Small Business Administration has not re-
leased any.
   Chairman CARDIN. One of the Planned Parenthood groups did re-
lease it.
   Senator HIRONO. Mr. Chairman?
   Chairman CARDIN. Yes, Senator Hirono. You are next.
   Senator HIRONO. Well thank you, as it turns out.
   So obviously we are not going to resolve this matter.
   Chairman CARDIN. No.
                                 45

   Senator HIRONO. And for all the time that I have been here, Re-
publicans have been trying to defund Planned Parenthood. OK,
that is a fact. And every opportunity to make sure that Planned
Parenthood does not get any assistance from whatever source is in
line with the Republican position for the whole time that I have
been in the Senate.
   And by the way, sitting here listening to the SBA Administrator
and the SBA being taken to task for not being responsive and not
doing their job is pretty rich, considering that the Republicans on
this Committee have failed to show up when it is time for us to
make a decision, up or down, on the nomination of Dilawar Syed
to be Deputy Administrator of SBA.
   And I also listened to the Ranking Member say, just now or a
little while ago, that this hearing comes at a perilous time for small
businesses. I agree. We should get on with it, and we should start
with Republicans not boycotting the numerous times that, Mr.
Chairman, you have called on us to do our jobs on this Committee.
   So I do have one question relating to Mr. Syed for the Adminis-
trator. Knowing that these are perilous times, would having a con-
firmed Deputy Administrator on your leadership team be helpful to
your work?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you so much, Senator Hirono, for that ques-
tion. The Deputy Administrator plays a role in operations at the
SBA, and, of course, that position is important at the SBA. Dilawar
Syed is highly qualified and would be an excellent choice if the
Committee moves forward to vote.
   Senator HIRONO. Yes. I suggest that we all do our jobs.
   So regarding Native American businesses, as you know one of my
top priorities is working to make sure that we do more in D.C. to
better support Native businesses, including Native Hawaiian busi-
nesses, and I have had that discussion with you.
   Last year, for example, I worked with my colleagues to introduce
bipartisan legislation that would fully authorize SBA’s Office of Na-
tive American Affairs to ensure Native businesses have a stronger
voice within SBA. So I was glad to see the President’s budget pro-
posal increase funding for outreach to these businesses.
   Can you speak to how SBA will prioritize outreach to Native
businesses in the coming year, and describe some of the outreach
activities that you would be pursuing with these Native busi-
nesses?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you, Senator Hirono. We share that priority,
and the Biden-Harris administration and the agency moved to en-
sure that Native-owned businesses and Tribal-owned businesses
can access the programs of the SBA. First and foremost, of course,
I have elevated the Office of Native American Affairs to report di-
rectly to me so we can prioritize the activities, including outreach
and education, and the administration of grants that they do to en-
tities to help support them.
   I will highlight that within the Community Navigator Pilot Pro-
gram that we have funded at the national scale, our Tier One
grantee, Oweesta Corporation, which is a CDFI collaborative. And
they are doing outreach to ensure that Native-owned businesses
are connected to capital and resources within the Federal Govern-
ment at the SBA. In addition to that national we have multiple,
                                 46

almost half of the entities that are funded also focused on Native
communities and their various territories that they cover.
  So with this additional support of the Community Navigators we
feel that our entrepreneurial development support to Native com-
munities can be better satisfied so that we can connect them to our
resources.
  And then, of course, on access to capital issues, as we expand our
Community Advantage program and look at adding new CDFIs we
are hopefully going to be leveraging these relationships with the
Native CDFI community to increase access to capital.
  Finally, I would say, of course, that on our contracting programs
in particular, that we have focused outreach on making sure that
when we try to increase the number of small businesses doing busi-
ness with the Federal Government that we do that inclusively, in-
cluding to Native-owned businesses and Tribal-owned entities.
  Senator HIRONO. I think these kinds of outreach efforts are really
important, because just saying that it is important, if we do not put
in process and ways that we are going to do that it just does not
happen.
  And I also want to mention that the Office of Manufacturing re-
cently created is going to be doing more to support small and me-
dium-sized manufacturers. So that is a whole other area of funding
that is going to be very important.
  And I will certainly give you feedback from the Native-owned
businesses that I worked as to how these kinds of outreach pro-
grams are helping them.
  Thank you for your commitment, Administrator.
  Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you. We welcome the opportunity to work
with you.
  Senator HIRONO. Thank you.
  Chairman CARDIN. Senator Ernst.
  Senator ERNST. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks today as well,
Administrator. We appreciate it so much. We appreciate you com-
ing in today.
  And over the last few months, of course, I have been doing the
99-county tour across Iowa, visiting a lot of our small businesses.
And in each of those counties that I visit, constituents tell me that
they are really struggling with the impact of inflation—of course,
I am sure you hear it every day as well—on their small businesses,
just the extreme costs that they are bearing, and including their
ability to maintain their payroll for their employees.
  The most recent consumer price index report from the Bureau of
Labor Statistics shows that prices increased by 8.5 percent over the
last 12 months, which is the largest year-over-year increase for
over 40 years. And over that same period, producer price index in-
creased by 11.2 percent, indicating that most small businesses are
experiencing increasingly diminished margins in real terms and
prices for consumers as they continue to skyrocket because of the
inflationary crisis.
  So inflation has created a hidden value-added tax on our small
businesses in Iowa and throughout the country. From the SBA per-
spective, what is SBA doing to both help those small businesses
navigate those climbing prices and also to prevent those costs from
being passed along to consumers? And in your opinion, how can the
                                 47

Administration respond to inflation to help struggling small busi-
nesses?
  Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you so much, Senator. I enjoyed my recent
visit in Iowa, and I look forward to returning and hopefully visiting
with you. You have some incredible small businesses.
  Senator ERNST. Thank you.
  Ms. GUZMAN. We are aligned. In terms of what the SBA is doing
and what we are supporting for small businesses specifically, of
course, the President’s budget recognizes the burdens of higher
costs and higher gas prices, or rather he appreciates the burdens.
Some of the measures that are being taken around pocketbook
issues, of course, SBA has a role to play.
  When we look at childcare costs, in particular, SBA is trying to
help. That would not only help reduce costs but it also helps with
the workforce. And, of course, we have boot camps, training,
childcare, entrepreneurs in this space, and we have launched a se-
ries of conversations, roundtables with those childcare entre-
preneurs and others to formulate new policies and be able to better
support the expansion of that supply of childcare facilities, which
will hopefully expand our workforce.
  The other, of course, part that the President’s budget really fo-
cuses on is expanding our productive economy and manufacturing
so that we can make more in America. Small businesses, of course,
75 percent of all manufacturers are 20 and under employees, in
particular. So they have a large role to play.
  We will be leaning in to supporting our manufacturers, to make
sure that more small manufacturers can make things in America,
and that includes not only the manufacturing initiative, the manu-
facturing hub that we are standing up within our government con-
tracting business development but across our centers. Our centers
do an incredible job of helping small businesses position for suc-
cess. We want them to focus on manufacturing.
  And last, just specifically around inflation, we know that all
those immediate pressures are difficult for small businesses. Our
advisor network across the 1,300 centers plus the over 450 naviga-
tors are continuing to help small businesses. Our SBDCs are doing
training on supply chain management. Our WBCs are doing inno-
vative things. One is connecting military spouses locally to jobs lo-
cally. We are really trying to lean in to provide actual technical as-
sistance that helps with today’s problems.
  Senator ERNST. No, thank you, and I appreciate you raising the
issue of childcare. That is something that Senator Rosen and I do
have a small business bill that we have worked on together that
would expand access to Small Business Administration loans, of
course, for nonprofits and so forth. So we would love to continue
working on that with you.
  And just very briefly, if you could expand a little bit on what you
are maybe doing to assist small businesses in those rural areas
that have been disproportionately hit by inflation.
  Ms. GUZMAN. Yes. For me, rural is very important. I spent a long
time in California, traveling around rural, and I have tried to focus
on policies. We have an Office of Rural Affairs, of course, that tar-
gets initiatives in the district offices. Our community navigators,
actually nearly half of those as well are focused on rural. I have
                                  48

added that as a component as a measure within this program, as
I would like to see our expansion of services to rural entrepreneurs.
So we will be happy to track that for you.
  Senator ERNST. Thank you, Administrator. Thank you, Mr.
Chair.
  Chairman CARDIN. Senator Shaheen.
  Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,
Administrator Guzman. We are looking forward to having you in
New Hampshire on Friday. We have a really interesting small
business picked out for us to visit, so I look forward to that.
  You know, I remember being in the State Senate in New Hamp-
shire in the early 1990’s, when we had a very bad recession in the
State, and five of our seven largest banks failed, and what kept
small business afloat was the SBA. And the district office of the
SBA was really critical in helping small businesses navigate, stay
afloat, and that has continued. It is, I think, one of the most impor-
tant agencies that we have in New Hampshire.
  And I recognize that SBA needs to balance a wide variety of
funding needs, but I think our district office is an integral part of
SBA’s ability to deliver services for our small businesses, and I
support really robust staffing for the offices.
  So will you commit to keeping Congress informed about any po-
tential changes regarding funding, or closure of any district offices
that could affect their ability to serve our communities?
  Ms. GUZMAN. Yes, we can definitely keep you in the loop of any
of those anticipated plans. And I will say that the budget calls an
overall 2.5 percent an increase in our budget, but some of that for
salaries and expenses so that we can make up for some of those
vacancies that we have. And I know how vital our district offices
are on the front lines.
  Senator SHAHEEN. Is there a discussion underway now to reduce
funding or close any of those offices?
  Ms. GUZMAN. We are not discussing any closures of offices at this
time. You know, if anything, I think that remote work has enabled
us to spread out a little bit further. But as we evaluate our staffing
models and how we are going to achieve this new scale, in terms
of our portfolio, but also the heightened interest in our services as
a result of serving over 8 million unique businesses during COVID
relief, obviously our field and all our offices are undergoing that ex-
ercise, and we will continue to keep you informed.
  Senator SHAHEEN. So I should then interpret from your remarks
that there are discussions currently underway about looking at
funding district offices.
  Ms. GUZMAN. Correct. I mean, we, of course, have been under re-
stricted resources in terms of our ability to meet with the growing
salaries and benefits expenses and hope to see this 2023 budget re-
alized so that we can again strengthen the employee base of the
SBA, especially in this environment where we are seeing new en-
trepreneurs at such record rates.
  Senator SHAHEEN. Well, Mr. Chairman, I hope we will stay in
touch, this Committee, with what the SBA is doing with respect to
funding district offices, because again, they are very important.
  Chairman CARDIN. I would think this is an area that is going to
be of interest to every member of this Committee, obviously. The
                                49

offices are our contact, the bridge with our small businesses. So
Senator Shaheen is correct. We are all going to be interested in any
changes that are made.
   Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
   I was really pleased that the Economic Aid Act in 2020 included
a number of enhancements to the 504 loan program, specifically re-
garding the ability of small business borrowers to refinance exist-
ing 504 loans. And I know, at least it is my understanding, that
the interim final rule became effective at the end of July 2021.
   Do you have any data on whether we have actually seen, as a
result of implementing these changes, an increased number in refi-
nancing activity, and is that data you can share with the Com-
mittee?
   Ms. GUZMAN. I can follow up with you and make sure that my
team presents any data on that. Yes, I will.
   Senator SHAHEEN. Do you have any sense, off the top of your
head——
   Ms. GUZMAN. I do not——
   Senator SHAHEEN [continuing]. Whether there has been an in-
crease in activity?
   Ms. GUZMAN [continuing]. Have a sense in terms of the impact,
at this point.
   Senator SHAHEEN. Well thank you. I think that is one of the
areas where it seemed to me that we could really support small
businesses through that refinancing, and it would be helpful to be
able to track that.
   Ms. GUZMAN. I can show that the 504 program overall is highly
popular, which is why we are requesting an increase from $7.5 to
$9 billion in the 504 program, in particular.
   Senator SHAHEEN. Great. Well I certainly support that.
   And as we know, the war in Ukraine, the unprovoked war in
Ukraine, has imposed an unprecedented array of sanctions against
Russia and Belarus. And given that it looks like that conflict is
going to continue for some time, can you speak to whether we have
heard from any of our small businesses about potential impact
from those sanctions?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Our Office of International Trade actually has been
working to advise small businesses of sanctions so that they can be
compliant, and updating our online tools with that latest informa-
tion. You know, anecdotally, I know that they have worked with a
couple of businesses just to make sure that they have an awareness
of who are impacted, but I could not give you further details.
   Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you. I am out of time but I think it
would be helpful for us to know what resources SBA has for small
businesses who have been affected, so that we can help share that.
   Ms. GUZMAN. We will. Thank you.
   Senator SHAHEEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
   Chairman CARDIN. Senator Risch.
   Senator RISCH. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First of all,
let me say that this is an oversight hearing and I am glad you are
holding the oversight hearing. It is how to determine how an agen-
cy is doing. And I never judge an agency by an individual case, but
sometimes looking at an individual case gives you a thumbnail that
there may be issues.
                                  50

   So I am going to talk about an individual case. I have sat in this
room for over a dozen years. Just before I became Chairman, Mary
Landrieu had remodeled the room, and it is a very nice room and
very ostentatious, and it provides us to give these flowery speeches
about how important small businesses is, how important it is to
America, and how we all want to help them.
   Well, let me talk about a case of mine now. I do not know how
familiar you are with either the logging or timber industry. It is
a very important industry in Idaho. And the industry has a tend-
ency, like many industries, to consolidate, so you wind up with big-
ger and bigger companies at the expense of, of course, small busi-
nesses.
   And so over the years a lot of us have thought to see that when
the United States Forest Service puts out bids that there is a set-
aside for small companies, and this would be not only the logging
companies that cuts the logs and then haul them to the mill but
also for the milling companies, that are small milling companies.
   So there is a small business in Idaho that is a logging company,
and they took advantage of the set-aside program, bid on a sale,
and after the sale was bid it turns out that the logs that they were
cutting, because of some industrial activity, have some small
amount of contamination in the wood of asbestos. Not a big deal
but a big enough deal that it concerned the small mills that they
have to sell to. Now remember, a small company has to cut the logs
and then they have to take them to a small mill. Well, this com-
pany was perfectly happy to cut the logs. However, none of the
small mills would take them because they could not take the risk.
But the large mills will take them. They are willing to take the
risk.
   So this small company said to the SBA, ‘‘Look, this is how the
contract is working out. We cannot sell to a small mill. We can only
sell to a large mill. But what we will do is sell the logs to a large
mill and exchange them for logs which we will then take to a small
mill.’’ And so the slate is clean.
   Your agency has told them to pound sand, and they have asked
over and over again to find a work-around for this, and they have
been told by your agency that they cannot do it.
   Look, we all give these speeches about how important it is to
help small businesses. This is a simple matter of a waiver. It is a
simple matter of somebody making a discretionary call to be able
to go through the steps that they have got to go through to comply,
and that is get a small business to cut this sale and then the small
business deliver that amount of 1,000 board feet or 1 million board
feet to a small mill to mill.
   What can you tell me about this?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Well, you are taking me back to my days in the
Obama-Biden administration, as there was a timber rule that I had
to deal with, with my government contracting team. And I know
how difficult it is for those small mills to have to calculate the dis-
tance they travel to the types of mills they have to sell, et cetera.
And so I cannot recall all the specifics but I recall the challenges
as well as dealing with it in the far north of California, where, ob-
viously, there is a big industry there as well.
                                 51

   You know, I do not know anything about this particular case but
I am happy to take it back to my government contracting team. I
have asked my team, of course, to implement and first be steadfast
on our controls. But I do know that we have to also give small busi-
nesses the benefit of the doubt and really evaluate the situation
from their perspective and meet them where they are and be as
friendly as possible, from a customer service perspective.
   So I will take it back and we will follow up with your office to
see how we can assist in this matter, if it is a matter of a waiver,
and understanding what the impacts are and our authorities with-
in this area.
   Senator RISCH. Thank you. I appreciate that. And this is an in-
stance where the SBA that we all love and embrace can actually
do some good for a small business, on a specific level. So we would
appreciate your affirmative action on that.
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you.
   Senator RISCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
   Chairman CARDIN. Let me thank you for that example. Our Com-
mittee needs to be the advocate for where small businesses have
a disadvantage over large companies. You are giving one example
where a larger company could take the risk where the smaller com-
pany could not. That is something that we have to make sure that
we level that playing field, so I appreciate you bringing that up.
   We have done that with bonding, for example, where it is much
easier for a larger company to get bonds than smaller companies.
So these are the types of issues that I think our Committee can
play an important role, so thank you for that question.
   Senator RISCH. Thank you.
   Chairman CARDIN. Senator Rosen.
   Senator ROSEN. Thank you, Chairman Cardin, and thank you for
holding this hearing. Thank you, Administrator Guzman, for being
here today.
   I want to agree with Senator Shaheen, the importance of the dis-
trict offices. I can tell you that our office in the State of Nevada
was instrumental. We could not have gotten through COVID and
everything we had to do without the hundreds of webinars they
gave to small businesses up and down our State. Ninety-nine per-
cent of businesses in Nevada are small businesses. So I want to get
a shout-out to them, and we need them to stay. It is really impor-
tant. People know they are there, and they work with us.
   But I want to also talk about Nevada and tourism, because the
pandemic hit travel and tourism harder than any other industry.
It devastated small businesses across Nevada, and really across the
country.
   The American Rescue Plan, which I was proud to support, in-
cluded $750 million to the Economic Development Administration
for states and communities impacted by job losses in the travel,
tourism, and outdoor recreation industries.
   But to date there has not been any direct Federal aid specifically
for tourism-related small businesses. So, Administrator Guzman,
can you talk about why some of the SBA relief programs that Con-
gress created, like Paycheck Protection Program, were in many
cases not sufficient for hard-hit sectors like tourism, and why more
targeted relief is now, and what other legislation do we need, espe-
                                 52

cially our restaurants? Our restaurants are really hurting. The
Chairman has some legislation out there. It is really important
that we get them back on their feet.
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you for that, Senator Rosen, and my team
and I would be happy to work with your office and provide any
technical assistance. We recognize how impacted the travel and
tourism industry was. Of course, we also recognize that PPP did
not sustain them for as long as they needed. We really focused our
outreach on COVID EIDL to make sure that there was additional
funding, affordable, patient, long-term capital for especially the
hotel industry, as an example, as well as restaurants and others
who need additional support if they were not able to access the
Restaurant Revitalization Fund.
   I continue to hear from businesses that they are still recovering.
Some of them have not, of course, returned to full revenue. And so
at this point what we have to offer them is our continued modifica-
tions on COVID EIDL as long as funding remains, as well as addi-
tional support with our core programs. But we are happy to work
with you to come up with some other solutions for the industry.
   Senator ROSEN. Thank you. It is really important because are not
back, and tourism, it is coming back, not all the way back. Our res-
taurants are coming back, not all the way back, and we have to
help them.
   And another way we can help them is to expand online resources
for small business owners, because of the past few years, particu-
larly during the pandemic, businesses have relied more and more
on their online tools, ranging from teleworking to e-commerce. So
it is important that the Federal Government also meets small busi-
ness owners where they are, including the expansion of digital
interactions between small businesses and the SBA’s resource part-
ners.
   So I have heard a lot from small businesses about the need for
more digital tools and counseling through the SBA. Are you consid-
ering making investments to increase online access for small busi-
ness to business counseling so they can use all the products that
we fund?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Yes, and I am trying to be as efficient as possible
with that and go to the industry itself and launch the Small Busi-
ness Digital Alliance, in partnership with Business Forward and
corporations who are already providing tools and resources for our
Nation’s small businesses. We know that three out of four busi-
nesses adopted technology to survive during COVID, and we want
to continue to build on those trends for operational efficiencies as
well as expansion in markets.
   We launched our first event with Google in Ohio, and next week,
during National Small Business Week, we will be highlighting
more resources to help small businesses with digital tools. It is a
high priority for me to get businesses engaged in e-commerce.
   Senator ROSEN. I think it matters.
   In the last few seconds I have I just want to talk quickly about
new startups. There has been a spike in new startups, particularly
in Nevada. Reno-Sparks area, nearly 100 startups have launched
since 2020. And so I am a strong advocate for entrepreneurship. I
want to see this surge continue. So what new investments—I am
                                 53

just going to go quickly—is SBA making to help support and en-
courage this surge of new startups that have happened, particu-
larly during the pandemic?
   Ms. GUZMAN. For our innovative startups, of course we have the
Accelerator program and the SBIR/STTR program, which we would
continue to amplify out there in the communities. And we are mak-
ing improvements to try to ensure that small businesses can access
those programs, as well as, of course, our capital programs, which
small businesses point to as one of the biggest challenges for them.
And they want to hire people. They want to be able to expand. And
so with the Community Advantage overhaul we are feeling con-
fident that we can help more of these small businesses, and look
forward to supporting your district.
   Senator ROSEN. Thank you. I appreciate it, and I look forward
to maybe Joni Ernst and I, our bill on nonprofit childcare having
access to small business. That would be a real big help for people
to go back to work.
   Chairman CARDIN. Senator Booker.
   Senator BOOKER. Thank you. There is an issue that I have been
bringing up for two administrations now, and I have been proud to
work with this Committee on it, and I am proud the Administra-
tion is taking such great steps on it. It is really to reduce barriers
for justice-involved entrepreneurs. They face so many when it
comes to starting a business.
   And April is Second Chance Month, in which we acknowledge
both the deep power of redemption in our society when we support
people making second chances and when we make our communities
safer.
   Studies, as you probably know, Administrator, have shown that
the greatest deterrent to recidivism is jobs, employment, a steady
paycheck, economic opportunity, but too many justice-involved peo-
ple just do not have that. According to the DOJ, 60 percent of for-
merly incarcerated individuals are unemployed still a year after
they reenter society. For those who do find employment, their take-
home pay is 40 percent less than those who are not incarcerated,
and the average lifetime earnings of someone who has been incar-
cerated is less than those, obviously, who have not been.
   And entrepreneurialism is a real pathway. It is an exciting re-
ality for people who have been involved in this system. A 2020
analysis found that individuals with a criminal record are more
likely to become entrepreneurs compared to those without a record,
in part because it is a viable pathway to overcome the stigma of
incarceration and a lot of the challenges.
   When the Paycheck Protection Program was rolled out by the
Small Business Administration 2 years ago, the SBA initially de-
nied individuals with certain criminal histories from applying. I
was proud to work across the aisle with the Trump administration
and with you to eliminate many of those restrictions. But we know
that serious roadblocks still exist with justice-involved entre-
preneurs who are trying to access the business and consumer credit
that they need.
   In January, the CFPB released a report that described how the
SBA itself has various restrictions that can bar applicants who are
incarcerated, indicted, or on probation for felonies and other certain
                                 54

misdemeanors, which are inconsistent across programs and hard
for consumers to fully understand. Meanwhile, that same CFPB re-
port stated that there is limited evidence to suggest that criminal
history decreases creditworthiness. Further, these restrictions are
something that exists only at the SBA, not in the private lending
space, and not even across other Federal agencies.
   And this is why I am so joyful to have worked with the Adminis-
tration over the last several months to address this issue, and yes-
terday the White House announced that the SBA will take steps
to remove these barriers from the SBA’s 7(a) microloan and 504
loan programs, and is working toward addressing the problems
across the rest of the SBA portfolio. This is going to have trans-
formational effects on communities like mine and entrepreneurs
across the country.
   And so with that long-winded approach, Administrator, could you
tell me more about the impact of this change for small businesses
and your commitment to it?
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you so much, Senator, for that, and I share
your passion for this issue. I was recently at Goucher College in
the Chairman’s district and met with several Second Chance entre-
preneurs who are making progress in their own lives and in the
communities that they are impacting.
   So the SBA can do more, and will be doing more as the White
House announced, to simplify. We have already shown what we can
do with the Community Advantage program, because the reforms
recently announced include changes, removing those restrictions so
that formerly incarcerated, indicted, et cetera, could access our pro-
grams. And we will be exploring that across the 7(a), 504, and
microlending programs as well.
   You know, further to that, I feel that there are a lot of learnings
that could be had from not only the experiences of those entre-
preneurs. We want to continue to highlight them and the opportu-
nities and the pathways forward with technical assistance and
more entrepreneurial education.
   And finally I will say I was recently in Ohio, meeting with an
incredible entrepreneur that has a successful chain of restaurants
as he is growing, just a couple to start, and hopefully grow, but
who uses justice-impacted individuals as employees. And I think
that is also a strong model to demonstrate, especially with such a
tight labor market, to show what entrepreneurs can do as well for
the workforce in this space.
   So I look forward to working with you across our core lending
programs to make sure that they are inclusive and give everybody
an opportunity, that entrepreneurship is a pathway to building
wealth, and I agree with you that that is especially for these Sec-
ond Chance entrepreneurs.
   Senator BOOKER. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
   Chairman CARDIN. Senator Booker, thank you for your leader-
ship on that. We are really working with the SBA to be able to pro-
vide the special attention to returning citizens on entrepreneurship
opportunities. We are making progress. The Biden administration
has been pretty strong on this. So thank you for your leadership
on this.
   Senator BOOKER. Thank you very much.
                                 55

  Chairman CARDIN. Senator Hickenlooper.
  Senator HICKENLOOPER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we
would be remiss if we did not wish Senator Booker a birthday. You
probably already did that.
  Senator HIRONO. Right. Happy birthday.
  Senator HICKENLOOPER. I wanted to make sure that we did rec-
ognize him. I do not know if anybody wants to sing.
  Senator BOOKER. I would prefer not.
  Chairman CARDIN. You may not know this. Your birthday
present to him was to allow him to jump over you, because you
were here earlier than he was. So I gave him your birthday
present.
  Senator HICKENLOOPER. That is a nice gift, although then I only
get one question because I have to go preside. I am on a tight
schedule. So now my gift to him is give him a little guilt, which
will just cling to his breast.
  I want to ask you a quick question, and you have to be concise.
I will put my other few questions into the record.
  Ms. GUZMAN. OK.
  Senator HICKENLOOPER. First I want to thank you. When you
come to Colorado it makes a huge difference, and your team has
been remarkable. The barriers that you got over in terms of the
Marshall Fire and really helping adjust, this affects people’s lives
in real time who have lost, in many cases, everything they own.
Over 1,000 houses were lost.
  And I wanted to ask a little bit about the disaster loans that
really are a lifeline for survivors. Modernizing how the SBA esti-
mates building costs is a great first step, and that is something we
have now, I think we are all together on. But I think we also have
to look at how do we update the borrowing limits to reflect the me-
dian price of a home that has more than doubled in the 28 years
since loan limits were last reset.
  So I guess what is the plan? How do we update the Disaster
Loan Assistance home and personal property loan maximums to ac-
count for that nearly 30 years of inflation?
  Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you. Thank you for that question and your
leadership for the community impacted by the Marshall Fire. We
have so far supported over 100 million loans now, and we see the
impact was huge. We were pleased to be able to do what we could
do administratively to change the way that we estimate, and also
have changed the process of going forward, we can move more
quickly so that we can help borrowers at the inception with accu-
racy.
  We are looking at those levels, and as I have shared with you
in our conversations, we will be exploring whether or not we can
increase those limits for the borrowers and explore that subsidy im-
pact for the future.
  Senator HICKENLOOPER. Well, I have more questions that I will
put into the record, but the one thing I have learned is if Dick Dur-
bin is anywhere around the Senate floor you cannot be late for
when you are presiding or there will be payments to be made.
  Again, I want to thank you so much. You have really done a
great job with the morale. Every time I meet someone from the
SBA I really feel rewarded, and I feel you should feel the reward
                                 56

of that effort time that obviously you are putting in. It is really
having material results, so thank you for that.
  Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you.
  Senator HICKENLOOPER. I yield back to the Chair.
  Chairman CARDIN. Thank you. Senator Markey.
  Senator MARKEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much.
  So do you agree that there is a need to replenish the Restaurant
Revitalization Fund so that minority-and women-owned res-
taurants who got pushed to the back of the line have the support
they need?
  Ms. GUZMAN. We are seeing the impact continue for our res-
taurants and know that they need continued support.
  Senator MARKEY. So you support——
  Ms. GUZMAN. We would stand ready to deploy the program and
know that we could support the nearly 158,000 small businesses
that are waiting.
  Senator MARKEY. Yes, and on the Small Business Innovation Re-
search program, of which Massachusetts has received tens of thou-
sands of these grants and created hundreds and hundreds of thou-
sands of jobs in our tech community, I am very worried that we are
staring down a disaster with the program’s expiration in just a few
short months. We have seen this movie before. Could you talk
about how important it is for SBIR to be reauthorized and fully
funded?
  Ms. GUZMAN. It is one of the most valuable programs, I think,
in the Federal Government, the SBIR/STTR. I mean, Qualcomm
alone and their success more than pays for the program in many
respects, as well as all the other great impact companies, 23andMe,
et cetera.
  The program is really critical to providing non-dilutive funding
to innovators, and I think SBA is proud to help direct that set-
aside within the program for small businesses and also look to ex-
pand its reach to more underserved communities. I know that any
disruption or anticipation of disruption could slow the processing
down. It is already a difficult, slower process for small businesses
to go through, and so we would not want to see that reduced, even
for a few months, the impact of our ability to compete globally on
innovation.
  Senator MARKEY. Thank you. And again, in Massachusetts the
STTR and SBIR programs have been central to our innovation
economy being created. It is so many thousands of companies that
now exist, only because of these programs.
  So we thank you so much, and we appreciate the fact that these
programs are merit-based, science-based, in terms of the awarding
of the grants, and I think that is the best way to ensure that we
maintain and enhance American competitors. We are definitely tied
to the ability to get these ideas out into the market, creating jobs,
and giving us an edge over other countries in the world.
  So we thank you so much. Thanks for all your great work.
  Chairman CARDIN. Thank you, Senator Markey.
  Administrator Guzman, the two largest programs that were cre-
ated for COVID were the PPP program and the EIDL—not created.
EIDL was there, the EIDL loan program, and then it was made eli-
gible for COVID relief.
                                57

  The number you said in your opening statement is pretty re-
markable, that you are now over 90 percent as far as loan
forgivenesses are concerned, and you have been able to process
that. We normally hear when there is serious backlog problems. It
has been kind of quiet on our front, which means you must be
doing a pretty good job.
  Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you.
  Chairman CARDIN. That is quite a record and I just really want-
ed to acknowledge that, and I am glad to see that you have been
able to keep up with the demand that is out there, because the
numbers are just staggering, and the dollar amounts are stag-
gering, and it is critically important for our economy. So those
small businesses that need to get those loans off the book through
forgiveness, it is an important point. So thank you for making that
a priority.
  In regard to the EIDL loan program, thank you for, first of all,
you increased the dollar amounts, which we were very pleased to
see. More than $100 billion has been issued since September. Most
have gone toward the modification of existing loans, if I understand
correctly. We know that there is no longer new loans being given,
but there is nearly four million small businesses that participated
in the EIDL loan program, which is again a remarkable number
that is out there.
  These loans are going to need to be serviced. Does your budget
give you adequate resources in order to deal with this significant
workload that you are going to have in servicing these loans?
  Ms. GUZMAN. Oh, we are asking for $320 million to be trans-
ferred from COVID EIDL advance into the SBA’s COVID funding
so that we can service these loans into the future. Of course, they
are 30-year loans, and so our budget request includes that transfer.
  Chairman CARDIN. I think that is all the questions I had. I was
pleased to see the Administration changed the Federal contracting
for minority-and women-owned small businesses. This is something
we have been asking for. Could you speak to the various ways that
the agency is working with the Administration to ensure Federal
contracting is more equitable?
  Ms. GUZMAN. Yes. I would be happy to. Thanks for that question.
Within our budget as well we are asking for an increase in the 7(j)
funding as an example. We think that we need to lean into entre-
preneurial education, to help more businesses get contract-ready,
and that is one program in which we hope to get more small busi-
nesses back in the system. There has been a 40 percent drop of
small business contractors doing business with the Federal Govern-
ment, and we want to make sure that is inclusive.
  The SBA also, in addition to the various reforms that we an-
nounced with the White House and OMB, we also, part of that re-
leased disaggregated data so that we could track performance of
our underserved or socioeconomic groups. So as we continue to
move forward in the future, outreach will be done to make sure
that we can attract all of the businesses. Especially as we are see-
ing women and people of color start businesses at such high rates,
we need to bring back innovation into our industrial base and re-
cruit more small businesses. So we believe equity is a real key to
ensure that we can continue to have a flow of contractors, small
                                  58

business contractors to do business with the Federal Government,
so from an entrepreneurial development.
   But in addition it is capital. It is bonding. Those are also top con-
cerns. And so we are working across our Capital Access Program
as well as our SBIC program to make sure that we can get funding
into the hands of contractors who need support to be able to deliver
against these contracts.
   Chairman CARDIN. Thank you. We already had a hearing and
talked a little bit about the Navigator Program and we are looking
forward. It is somewhat a unique model, so we are looking forward
to getting your assessment as to how that program is working
through its hub-spoke arrangements.
   And the expansion of the Entrepreneur Resource Partners I
know is very much appreciated. I have commented about the ex-
pansion of Women Business Centers in Maryland the Veterans
Outreach Business Center in our State. These centers are really
critically important.
   We also, although it comes under Commerce, the MBDA codifica-
tions in the infrastructure bill. It has also made a huge difference
for small businesses, minority small businesses.
   So there is a lot going on, and we appreciate your observations
as to how we can fine-tune these programs moving forward. I think
this budget year gives us a chance to do that. We had some con-
versations that we may not be able to get the entire expectations
we had in President Biden’s initial plans that included the Build
Back Better Act, but we think we can move some of these issues
through the budget process. So we welcome your thoughts as we
try to advance these ideas or these programs or these missions in
any way we can.
   We are now moving beyond COVID, so how do we institutionalize
what we have learned from COVID to have these tools moving for-
ward that can help small businesses, in any economic cir-
cumstance, what is available to be activated when we have another
challenging economic circumstance.
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you, and we look forward to leveraging this
moment as well. SBA has never achieved this scale or this aware-
ness in the communities, and we want to build on that, and we
look forward to collaborating.
   Chairman CARDIN. And last, let me point out, to Senator Risch’s
point that I did on the logging. I have also been talking to Sec-
retary Wyden in regard to taxes. There are many areas where
small businesses have additional obstacles that larger companies
do not have. So I hope that you will look at us as a partner to work
with our sister committees here to try to help deal with issues that
may not be under our Committee’s jurisdiction but we can help
small businesses, and we could use your advice as to how we can
move forward to help America’s small businesses.
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you very much for that offer.
   Chairman CARDIN. And again, thank you very much for your tes-
timony today and for your service to our country.
   Ms. GUZMAN. Thank you.
   Chairman CARDIN. With that the Committee will stand ad-
journed.
   [Whereupon, at 4:04 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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