Hearing — Building Back a Better, More Equitable Housing Infrastructure: HUD Oversight (House, 2021)

Summary

This is a hybrid hearing before the Committee on Financial Services of the House of Representatives, titled Building Back a Better, More Equitable Housing Infrastructure for America: Oversight of the Department of Housing and Urban Development, on July 20, 2021. The witness listed is Marcia L. Fudge, Secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). One member's remarks say that in Arkansas, of the $200 million allocated by Congress in December, a mere $1.4 million has been distributed. Additional material for the record includes a Washington Post article titled Rent prices are soaring as Americans flock back to cities.

Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used

Issuer: Congressional materials
Document type: Congressional Hearing
Case: Chrg Chrg 117Hhrg45507 Chrg 117Hhrg45507

Cite this document

“Hearing — Building Back a Better, More Equitable Housing Infrastructure: HUD Oversight (House, 2021).” Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/chrg-chrg-117hhrg45507-chrg-117hhrg45507/, SHA-256 44fb9eb705aa9484756575771195907768235a3dbb65e61edf8c00696a8b15b6.

Full text

BUILDING BACK A BETTER,
MORE EQUITABLE HOUSING
INFRASTRUCTURE FOR AMERICA:
OVERSIGHT OF THE DEPARTMENT
OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT

HYBRID HEARING
BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION

JULY 20, 2021

Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services

Serial No. 117–40

(
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
45–507 PDF WASHINGTON : 2021

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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
MAXINE WATERS, California, Chairwoman

CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York PATRICK MCHENRY, North Carolina,
NYDIA M. VELÁZQUEZ, New York Ranking Member
BRAD SHERMAN, California FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York BILL POSEY, Florida
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
AL GREEN, Texas BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri ANN WAGNER, Missouri
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado ANDY BARR, Kentucky
JIM A. HIMES, Connecticut ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
BILL FOSTER, Illinois FRENCH HILL, Arkansas
JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio TOM EMMER, Minnesota
JUAN VARGAS, California LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia
AL LAWSON, Florida WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio
MICHAEL SAN NICOLAS, Guam TED BUDD, North Carolina
CINDY AXNE, Iowa DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee
SEAN CASTEN, Illinois TREY HOLLINGSWORTH, Indiana
AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
RITCHIE TORRES, New York JOHN ROSE, Tennessee
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina LANCE GOODEN, Texas
RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina
MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania VAN TAYLOR, Texas
ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, New York PETE SESSIONS, Texas
JESÚS ‘‘CHUY’’ GARCIA, Illinois
SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas
NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
JAKE AUCHINCLOSS, Massachusetts

CHARLA OUERTATANI, Staff Director

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CONTENTS

Page
Hearing held on:
July 20, 2021 ..................................................................................................... 1
Appendix:
July 20, 2021 ..................................................................................................... 63

WITNESSES

TUESDAY, JULY 20, 2021
Fudge, Hon. Marcia L., Secretary, U.S. Department of Housing and Urban
Development (HUD) ............................................................................................. 5

APPENDIX
Prepared statements:
Fudge, Hon. Marcia L. ..................................................................................... 64

ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Hill, Hon. French:
Washington Post article, ‘‘Rent prices are soaring as Americans flock
back to cities’’ ................................................................................................ 68
Huizenga, Hon, Bill:
‘‘Mortgage Insurance for Mortgage Transactions Involving Downpayment
Assistance Programs’’ ................................................................................... 72
Tlaib, Hon. Rashida:
Article from The Detroit News, ‘‘Detroit homeowners overtaxed $600
million’’ ........................................................................................................... 73
Torres, Hon. Ritchie:
Written statement of Capital One ................................................................... 81

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BUILDING BACK A BETTER,
MORE EQUITABLE HOUSING
INFRASTRUCTURE FOR AMERICA:
OVERSIGHT OF THE DEPARTMENT
OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT

Tuesday, July 20, 2021

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES,
Washington, D.C.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m. in room 2128,
Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Maxine Waters [chairwoman
of the committee] presiding.
Members present: Representatives Waters, Velazquez, Sherman,
Meeks, Scott, Green, Cleaver, Perlmutter, Himes, Foster, Beatty,
Vargas, Gottheimer, Lawson, San Nicolas, Axne, Casten, Pressley,
Torres, Lynch, Adams, Tlaib, Dean, Ocasio-Cortez, Garcia of Texas,
Williams of Georgia; McHenry, Lucas, Luetkemeyer, Huizenga,
Wagner, Barr, Williams of Texas, Hill, Emmer, Zeldin, Loudermilk,
Davidson, Budd, Kustoff, Hollingsworth, Gonzalez of Ohio, Rose,
Steil, Gooden, Timmons, Taylor, and Sessions.
Chairwoman WATERS. The Financial Services Committee will
come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare
a recess of the committee at any time. As a reminder to all Mem-
bers, we have a hard stop at 1:30 p.m., and Members who are un-
able to ask their questions at today’s hearing will be given priority
at our next hearing with the Secretary.
Pursuant to House rules, the committee will continue to provide
accommodations for Members who request to participate in hear-
ings virtually, but I am very happy to have the vast majority of our
Members and our witnesses participating in person here today. As
a reminder, those who are not fully vaccinated must continue to
wear a mask in the hearing room and practice social distancing,
but I would also like to encourage our Members to continue wear-
ing masks if they feel more comfortable doing so.
And so, Members, we have a little bit of a problem with our tim-
ing apparatus here this morning. We can see the timing here, when
your 5 minutes are up. Our witness can see her 5 minutes, and,
of course, it will be monitored by our friends on the opposite side
of the aisle, so we will make sure that we are all in sync with the
timing.
Let me just say that I am going to be very strict with the timing.
If you take all of your 5 minutes to ask a question and then expect
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the Secretary to answer for another 2 or 3 minutes, that will not
happen today. After 5 minutes, you will be gaveled. So, thank you.
Today’s hearing is entitled, ‘‘Building Back a Better, More Equi-
table Housing Infrastructure for America: Oversight of the Depart-
ment of Housing and Urban Development.’’
I now recognize myself for 4 minutes to give an opening state-
ment.
First of all, a happy good morning, Secretary Fudge. I am so de-
lighted to have you with us today to discuss the work that the
Biden Administration is doing to build a more fair, equitable, and
accessible housing infrastructure in this country.
I want to begin by applauding you and the Biden Administration
for treating our housing crisis with the urgency and seriousness it
deserves. The Trump Administration made it crystal clear that it
didn’t appreciate the magnitude of our nation’s housing crisis. By
repeatedly proposing deep budget cuts to HUD programs, and tak-
ing action to undermine our fair housing laws, the Trump Adminis-
tration showed a complete disregard for low- and moderate-income
(LMI) families, people of color, the LGBTQ+ community, and immi-
grants.
It is only because of Democrats in Congress that HUD’s budget
was not decimated during Trump’s presidency. Because elections
matter, President Biden and HUD have now begun to reverse
Trump’s anti-fair housing rules. Democrats on this committee also
remain laser-focused on ensuring that eligible families receive the
housing assistance available to them through the CARES Act, the
December relief package, the American Rescue Plan, and other
coronavirus relief legislation.
We must remember, however, that we are not just building back
our economy from the pandemic and Donald Trump’s disastrous
housing policies; we are building back better, and that is my focus
for today’s hearing. Key to building back better and more equitably
is understanding that housing is infrastructure. For the first time
in a generation, we have a real opportunity to fix structural prob-
lems in our housing system and reverse decades of disinvestment
in low-income communities and communities of color.
Last week I, and several members of this committee introduced
a legislative package of three bills to do just that. The first is the
Housing is Infrastructure Act, the second is the Ending Homeless-
ness Act, and the third is the Downpayment Toward Equity Act,
which would help address the racial gap in homeownership by pro-
viding $100 billion toward down payment and other financial as-
sistance for first-generation home buyers.
We must make housing a top priority. These generational invest-
ments will increase homeownership, provide a permanent housing
safety structure, and end homelessness in this country once and for
all.
Secretary Fudge, I know you are the right person to take advan-
tage of this moment. Thank you so much for your leadership on
this absolutely critical issue. I look forward to your testimony
today.
I now recognize the ranking member of the committee, the gen-
tleman from North Carolina, Mr. McHenry, for 4 minutes.

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Mr. MCHENRY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thanks for
holding today’s hearing.
Secretary Fudge, welcome. It’s nice to see you in your first ap-
pearance before Congress. On that side of the table, it has a dif-
ferent perspective.
But I must begin today by asking, where is Treasury Secretary
Yellen? I sent the Chair a letter last week asking for the Treasury
Secretary to join us for today’s hearing, but it looks like they could
not make that happen. Maybe Secretary Fudge can shed some light
on the most pressing issue in housing at the moment for the Fed-
eral Government, and that is in regard to the Rental Assistance
Program. I know millions of renters across the country and across
the income spectrum would like some answers.
Look, Madam Chairwoman, we are on a deadline. The Biden Ad-
ministration’s eviction moratorium ends on July 31st. The CDC has
already said, no more extensions, so what are people supposed to
do? What is the plan? Last December, Congress provided $25 bil-
lion in emergency rental assistance. Democrats then added another
$21 billion this year for the exact same purpose. That is $46 billion.
This might not sound like a lot of money, considering what the
Democrats are talking about in spending $3.5 trillion on the pro-
gressive agenda with the next budget. But I assure you, for the
Americans who have to decide next month whether to buy food for
their family or to pay back rent, it certainly is.
This money was specifically intended to retire old rent debts and
end the threat of eviction for millions who fell behind during the
pandemic. So, where is that money and whom is it helping? The
silence is deafening. The Washington Post reported over the week-
end that little more than $1 billion has made it out the door. And
I will remind my colleagues again, that we have allocated $46 bil-
lion to help with this rental problem.
Republicans on this committee have put forward a solution, the
Renter Protection Act. This bill would end the Biden Administra-
tion’s mismanagement of the emergency rental assistance and get
the money out the door now.
Last week, I called for the committee to consider this bill, but the
Chair has not scheduled it, or anything like it, for a markup. Okay.
So, what about a hearing? We are days away from a preventable
problem, and instead of figuring out how to keep families in their
homes, we are going to get an update from HUD on all of the other
stuff, on a forward-looking basis, that they are working on. This is
government at its worst.
It is clear that Democrats would rather talk about anything but
the rental assistance program and resolving old rental debts. Not
to mention with this level of mismanagement and lack of trans-
parency, I can only imagine the amount of waste, fraud, and abuse
of taxpayer dollars we will have to address. But lucky for us, we
have no information, so hear no evil, see no evil, I guess is the ap-
proach right now.
Fortunately, for this hearing, HUD has a statutory obligation
with respect to transparency of these funds. The original Emer-
gency Rental Assistance Law requires the Treasury Department,
‘‘in consultation with the Secretary of Housing and Urban Develop-

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4

ment—whom we have before us today—to provide public reports on
the use of the Emergency Rental Assistance Program.’’
So, while I would prefer to ask these questions to Secretary
Yellen, because they are supposed to be in the driver’s seat at
Treasury, Madam Secretary, I will direct them to you. And my
questions here regard the mismanagement of this program, and
why less than 4 percent has gone to help renters, and 96 percent
has been unallocated.
So, where is the Treasury Secretary? I will ask that again. I look
forward to the questions.
Chairwoman WATERS. I now recognize the gentleman from Mis-
souri, Mr. Cleaver, for 1 minute.
Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and let me begin
where you began in this committee earlier, and that was with your
almost holy housing obsession, particularly on affordable housing.
So, thank you very much. The country, I think, is moving in that
direction.
I would also like to thank my dear friend, Secretary Fudge, for
not only being with us today, but for taking the time this past May
to visit Kansas City to discuss the vital role that HUD has in every
one of our congressional districts. Secretary Fudge is, in fact, lis-
tening. She is taking bold action, and her commitment to improv-
ing the Department and the quality of life for hard-working Ameri-
cans is unquestionable.
Madam Chairwoman, we know that we do not need another
study. I hope that there is no legislation designed to study housing.
We do not need another news article to tell us that the wealthiest
nation on Earth has streets filled with homeless folks. We do not
need another report to explain the American Dream of homeowner-
ship.
Thank you very much.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman
from Arkansas, Mr. Hill, for 1 minute.
Mr. HILL. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate our
friend and former colleague, Secretary Fudge, appearing before us
today. But I have to reinforce the comments made by the ranking
member about the noticeable lack of Secretary Yellen. I can’t help
but mention how available Secretary Mnuchin made himself over
his 4 years in office, and particularly for this committee during the
pandemic, and I hope we can expect that from the Biden Adminis-
tration.
It is imperative to have Secretary Yellen here to ensure account-
ability for the trillions of dollars the government has spent over the
last year. Alarmingly, only 11 percent of the $9 billion provided to
HUD by the CARES Act has been spent to date, and none of the
American Rescue Plan money has been used to help an actual
household yet.
Even more concerning is the gross mismanagement of the Evic-
tion Rental Assistance Program. In my home State of Arkansas, of
the $200 million allocated by Congress in December, a mere $1.4
million, 70 basis points, has been distributed.
I look forward to discussing this more during my questions, and
I yield back, Madam Chairwoman.

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Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much. I want to welcome
today’s distinguished witness, and former colleague of ours, the
Honorable Marcia Fudge, who is the Secretary of the U.S. Depart-
ment of Housing and Urban Development. This is Secretary
Fudge’s first time appearing before this committee in her current
capacity, and we welcome her testimony today.
You will have 5 minutes to summarize your testimony. You
should be able to see a timer on the table in front of you that will
indicate how much time you have left. I would ask you to be mind-
ful of the timer, and when the red light appears, to quickly wrap
up your testimony, so that we can be respectful of the committee
members’ time. And without objection, your written statement will
be made a part of the record.
Secretary Fudge, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to
present your oral testimony.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MARCIA L. FUDGE, SEC-
RETARY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DE-
VELOPMENT (HUD)
Secretary FUDGE. Thank you so very much. Good morning,
Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member McHenry, and distin-
guished members of this committee, many of whom are my friends,
and I miss you. It’s good to see you. Thank you for this opportunity
to discuss the transformational investments the Biden-Harris Ad-
ministration has proposed to advance housing opportunity in Amer-
ica.
I know President Biden is committed, in his head and in his
heart, to help more people find a stable, affordable, and dignified
place to call home. He has made that commitment clear. The Presi-
dent’s proposed budget for Fiscal Year 2022 requests $68.7 billion
for HUD. This represents an increase of $9 billion, or 15 percent,
from our enacted funding from the previous fiscal year.
The American people need every dollar in this budget. Today, it
is harder to find an affordable home in America than at any point
since the 2008 financial crisis. The high cost of housing keeps mil-
lions of families up every night. They wonder if they can afford to
keep a roof over their head and still manage to keep their lights
on, to pay for their prescriptions, or to put food on their tables.
The President’s budget takes bold action to address our afford-
able housing crisis and to dramatically strengthen our social safety
net for the most vulnerable among us. The President’s budget re-
quests $3.5 billion to provide housing and supportive services to
Americans experiencing homelessness, including young people and
survivors of domestic violence. It contains $30.4 billion for HUD’s
Housing Choice Voucher Program which, if enacted, would deliver
life-changing assistance to an additional 200,000 households.
The President understands that investing in housing represents
a major solution for advancing equity on behalf of underserved
Americans. The President’s budget requests $723 million in Indian
Housing Block Grants to create affordable housing and spark eco-
nomic development on Tribal lands. It contains $3.8 billion in Com-
munity Development Block Grants, including $295 million in tar-
geted funding for historically underserved areas and cities, small
towns, and rural communities.

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Nearly half of our public housing stock is more than 50 years old.
Many properties face significant capital needs. This is not just a
safety issue but an issue of racial justice, as Americans of color rep-
resent roughly 70 percent of people living in public housing. The
President’s budget provides $3.2 billion in capital funds to help re-
store public housing and to improve the quality of life for the resi-
dents we serve.
We know people of color are especially vulnerable to the threats
posed by climate change and extreme weather. We are 3 times as
likely to live in areas which lack green infrastructure that helps
guard against flooding. Too often, we find ourselves in the path of
natural disasters and are denied the resources we need to rebuild
our homes and our communities. That is why President Biden pro-
vides $800 million to strengthen climate resilience in public hous-
ing on Tribal land and across HUD-supported communities.
The President’s 2022 budget is just one part of his commitment
to make generational investments into America’s housing. In addi-
tion to the vital support contained in his budget, the President has
called for sweeping new housing investments through his Build
Back America agenda. These investments would help build or re-
store more than 2 million affordable homes. The Build Back Better
agenda would help more families of modest means realize the
dream of homeownership. It would expand our supply of affordable
rental housing and help revitalize our public housing stock.
Our nation must move with urgency to enact investments con-
tained in both the President’s budget and his Build Back Better
agenda. During the COVID-19 crisis, we all came to appreciate just
how important it is to have a safe and stable place to call home.
Today, thanks to the leadership of President Biden, our country is
making great strides in rebuilding from the pandemic. Our econ-
omy is surging, more Americans continue to get vaccinated, and life
is beginning to feel closer to normal.
Yet, America cannot return to the status quo of yesterday, prior
to the pandemic. We must not return to an America beset by crum-
bling homes and buildings, to an America grappling with a crisis
in affordable housing. We must build back better together.
I look forward to partnering with this committee to help make
housing for all a reality in our nation and to ensure that HUD acts
as a responsible steward for the funding entrusted to us.
And with that, Madam Chairwoman, I am happy to answer any
questions.
[The prepared statement of Secretary Fudge can be found on
page 64 of the appendix.]
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you, Madam Secretary. I now rec-
ognize myself for 5 minutes for questions.
Since I joined this committee 3 decades ago, I have been consist-
ently focused on homelessness, not just managing it but ending this
national embarrassment for one of the richest nations in the world.
As you know, homelessness is also a racial justice issue. Despite
representing less than 30 percent of the total population, Black, In-
digenous, and Latinx individuals make up well over two-thirds of
the people experiencing homelessness in America. Once they fall
into homelessness, they are also far less likely than their White

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counterparts to be able to access the health and mental health
services they need to obtain and maintain housing.
Just last week, a team at the Urban Institute, led by Mary
Cunningham, who previously testified before this committee on my
Ending Homelessness Act, conducted a study on the effectiveness
of permanent supportive housing in interrupting the costly cycle of
chronic homelessness.
In a randomized trial, participants in a Denver supportive hous-
ing initiative reduced their arrests and emergency room visits by
40 percent relative to the comparison group, and more effectively
addressed their health needs, including doctor’s office visits and
prescriptions.
Secretary Fudge, you and I have talked about this endlessly, all
during the time that we have served here, and I know how you feel
about homelessness. And I know that we have had a conversation
more than once about supportive services. And, of course, we know
that with supportive services, we are able to help people become
more independent, if we can help them get to the doctor, if we can
help them make sure they take their prescriptions, and all of that.
And so, I think it is important for us to talk about supportive
services, and what that means as we deal with this homelessness
issue, because as we talk about additional affordable units and
rental assistance and all of that, we know that to the degree that
we are able to assist people take hold of their daily lives, with not
only taking care of doctor’s appointments and all of that, but being
able to get up every day and maybe do everything from exercise,
to read, to go to the local library, or what have you, that this would
go a long way in helping them to become independent.
So, how do you feel about supportive services and what that
could mean in terms of the way that we look at homelessness?
Secretary FUDGE. Thank you very much for the question. If we
do not have supportive services, Madam Chairwoman, what we do
is really set up people to fail. Once we get people off the streets—
and you know as well as I do that on any night in America, more
than 580,000 people in this country, the greatest nation in the
world, have no place to sleep, so until we can start to provide those
services, whether it be health services, whether it be educational
services, access to work, access to transportation, and a myriad of
other things, we really have not done much, because we have not
given them the tools and the ability to live on their own success-
fully.
Chairwoman WATERS. I know we absolutely agree on that issue.
Let me just say a word about this rental assistance that the
ranking member talked about. We passed the Heroes Act in June,
and again in October. We also passed the standalone version of the
Emergency Rental Assistance Bill in July. It was not until Decem-
ber that Republicans came to the table to help us pass emergency
rental assistance. So, it is very interesting that Republicans are
now complaining about delays in implementation. We would have
been much further along in the implementation if Republicans had
not dragged their feet in acknowledging the problem from the start.
And they can’t be more worried about it than I am. That is my
issue. That is the issue that I spend the most time on. And yes,

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I added additional money after we had done the CARES money,
into the American Relief Plan.
We know that we have a problem all over this country. I know
that Secretary Yellen and you—everybody is concerned about that.
We are doing everything we can to get the States to do what they
should do in putting together the programs that they need to do
to get the rental assistance out.
I just wanted to say that as I end, and turn the time over to Mr.
McHenry.
The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. McHenry, who is the
ranking member of the committee, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. MCHENRY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you
for talking about the same thing that I think we all care about. We
have allocated $46 billion to rental assistance. The Emergency
Rental Assistance Program was supported by both parties when
the law finally got passed. And when Secretary Yellen was here in
March, she pledged that she would come back before this com-
mittee to explain what was going on.
According to the documents from Treasury, less than 4 percent
of the money provided by Congress has reached eligible households.
So Secretary Fudge, can you tell us how much of the $46 billion
in rental assistance has ended up in the hands of renters or their
landlords at this point?
Secretary FUDGE. Certainly, I cannot speak for Secretary Yellen,
but I will give you the facts as I know them. I would be happy to
do it.
What I do know is that Treasury has obligated 100 percent of the
resources from emergency rental. It is in the hands of States, local
communities, and some continuums of care. So, the resources are
out. It is not a fact that Treasury did not get it out; 100 percent
of the resources are out.
What we are doing now to assist—
Mr. MCHENRY. How much is in the hands of renters?
Secretary FUDGE. Sir, I have no idea, but I would say this to
you—
Mr. MCHENRY. So, is the Washington Post story correct that—
Secretary FUDGE. I am not—
Mr. MCHENRY. —it is just over $1 billion? Were you familiar
with the Washington Post story I referenced, from the weekend?
Secretary FUDGE. I have not read the story, sir, so I don’t know
if it is accurate or not.
Mr. MCHENRY. Okay. So, you are saying the funds are allocated,
but you are not sure if they have gotten in the hands of anyone?
Secretary FUDGE. I know it has gotten in the hands of some peo-
ple. I don’t know that number.
Mr. MCHENRY. Is that knowable from government or is it—I am
not trying to play a pop quiz on you in testifying, but you are,
under law, statutorily consulted by the Treasury Secretary for this
program, and since she is not appearing, and this is a very press-
ing issue, I think we have a right to know why only 4 percent has
actually gotten in the hands of eligible households. Is that a correct
number?
Secretary FUDGE. As I said, sir, I don’t know if it is or not.
Mr. MCHENRY. So, we don’t know—

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Secretary FUDGE. What I do know—
Mr. MCHENRY. —if it is $1 billion, or less or more of the $46 bil-
lion?
Secretary FUDGE. HUD does not track the resources, sir.
Mr. MCHENRY. We will follow up with you on that comment, be-
cause statutorily. you are required to publish the data about Emer-
gency Rental Assistance (ERA).
Secretary FUDGE. In consultation with Treasury.
Mr. MCHENRY. Yes, but HUD is the one to publish the report,
statutorily, under ERA.
Section 501(g) of Division N of Public Law 116–260, which cre-
ated the original ERA program—are you familiar with it? It reads,
‘‘Reporting requirements. The Treasury Secretary, in consultation
with the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, shall pro-
vide public reports not less frequently than quarterly regarding the
use of funds made available under this Act.’’
The last report says only 4 percent has gotten in the hands of
renters. Do you dispute that?
Secretary FUDGE. I don’t know if it is accurate or not, so no, I
do not dispute it.
Mr. MCHENRY. Are you familiar with the report that your De-
partment published?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes.
Mr. MCHENRY. And in that report, it says that less than 4 per-
cent has gotten in the hands of renters.
Secretary FUDGE. The numbers change every day, sir.
Mr. MCHENRY. Okay. But you have no idea what those numbers
are at this moment?
Secretary FUDGE. I do not.
Mr. MCHENRY. Okay. So given the statutory obligation, can you
tell us what action HUD is taking to make sure that we get help
into the hands of these renters faster? What are you doing to make
that faster, with Secretary Yellen?
Secretary FUDGE. We are the people who are providing the tech-
nical assistance. And I would say to you—
Mr. MCHENRY. What technical assistance are you providing to
get it out the door faster? Is this an urgent issue for your Depart-
ment?
Secretary FUDGE. It is.
Mr. MCHENRY. What are you doing to make it faster?
Secretary FUDGE. We are talking to the communities, the people
who have the least capacity to use the resources, so we are helping
small and rural communities. We are helping small and rural com-
munities to get the resources from their States and from their
counties and other local governments, through the Housing Trust
Funds, et cetera. Because most of them do not have the capacity.
We give them money but we do not give them people. We don’t give
them the capacity—
Mr. MCHENRY. You spent $800 million on overhead for this pro-
gram to distribute just over $1 billion.
Secretary FUDGE. But they don’t go to the rural communities, sir.
Mr. MCHENRY. But understand that what has been spent by this
Administration is almost the same amount of overhead that has ac-

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tually gotten in the hands of renters. That is how deeply flawed
this program is.
Now, this is something that requires, I think, your attention and
Secretary Yellen’s attention. This is an absolute—it looks like com-
plete mismanagement at this point, when you only have less than
4 percent of the money getting in the hands of renters, for this very
important program.
Secretary FUDGE. Let me just, if I may, sir, let me just first off—
we did make a mistake. Treasury actually publishes the report, not
HUD. We consult with them. That is number one.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman’s time has expired, and
this program is overseen by Secretary Yellen and the Treasury.
When she is before us, then these questions will be—
Mr. MCHENRY. And that is why I have raised the question, to in-
vite Secretary Yellen, the Secretary of the Treasury, here.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman from California, Mr. Sher-
man, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. SHERMAN. Secretary Fudge, I am honored to have you here.
And I am thrilled to say the words, ‘‘Secretary Fudge.’’ It is so ap-
propriate that you are our sole witness here for this hearing, and
I can think of no better use of the committee’s time than to hear
directly and solely from you in this hearing.
The first question is something I would just like you to respond
to for the record. Our colleague, Salud Carbajal, has a bill, the
Naomi Schwartz Safe Parking Program Act, and I want to thank
the chairwoman for noticing that bill for this hearing. And it fo-
cuses on those who are sleeping in their cars, the vehicular home-
less, and I hope that you would respond for the record as to wheth-
er we can do more to help people who are sleeping in their cars.
It happens, especially in Southern California. And particularly, if
you and your staff could take a look at the Naomi Schwartz Safe
Parking Program Act.
And now, I would like to focus on Section 8, which is so impor-
tant to Southern California. People get the Section 8 voucher but
then they can’t find a landlord in my district who will accept it.
U.S. Senators Coons and Cramer have a bill, the Choice in Afford-
able Housing Act—but I hear the story all the time. People end up
having to move 30 to 50 miles away from my district because they
can’t find a landlord, and I don’t represent that wealthy of a dis-
trict.
So, do you think that we can and should do more to incentivize
landlord participation in the Section 8 Program?
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely. And let me just say, if I may, Mr.
Sherman, that the $46 billion is needed. There has never been any-
one who can say that people who are homeless or at risk of experi-
encing homelessness don’t need the money. If there is a problem
on the Federal side, that is not their problem. The resources are
needed every day to get people off the street. In California, most
people can’t afford to live in California anymore.
The homelessness problem is so great there because even if we
can find a landlord who is willing to rent to someone who is getting
a Section 8 voucher, they can get so much more money from some-
one else. So, there is such a small supply for such a great demand.

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Mr. SHERMAN. Thank you. Members of the committee know that
I have been concerned with these Property Assessed Clean Energy
(PACE) loans, because, first, you have a first mortgage on your
home, and then the PACE loan comes in as, in effect, ahead of the
first mortgage, and that can pose a threat to Federal programs like
FHA that guarantee first mortgages.
But I am also concerned. because as the National Consumer Law
Center says, these products are frequently expensive loans that are
often pushed by aggressive contractors for projects which provide
questionable savings and pose serious risks of predatory lending.
That is why I want to thank the chairwoman for noticing for this
hearing my bill, the Improving Federal Oversight of PACE Financ-
ing Act, and to thank the National Consumer Law Center for en-
dorsing that bill.
Madam Secretary, would you agree that we need to take more
steps to protect consumers and the Federal mortgage guarantee
and assistance programs when it comes to these predatory PACE
loans?
Secretary FUDGE. I don’t know that I would agree to it being
predatory, but I would say that I do believe—
Mr. SHERMAN. Actually, some of them are predatory, and some
are not predatory. I want to make that clear.
Secretary FUDGE. I agree.
Mr. SHERMAN. There are some that are quite legitimate, but they
come in above the—
Secretary FUDGE. No, I absolutely agree, we need to have more
conversations, further discussions, and look at it to be sure that it
truly is providing a source of affordable financing. Yes, I agree.
Mr. SHERMAN. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you. The gentlewoman from Mis-
souri, Mrs. Wagner, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. WAGNER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I welcome
our former colleague, now Madam Secretary Fudge.
First, I think you are going to hear this from all of us, because
we are just deeply, deeply disappointed and frustrated that Treas-
ury Secretary Yellen is not testifying today. And I know you are
going to take a number of questions from us based on the joint ef-
forts between HUD and Treasury.
The Treasury Department has failed to properly administer more
than $46 billion, that’s ‘‘billion’’ with a ‘‘B,’’ in rental assistance to
struggling families, and frankly, Madam Secretary, the taxpayers
in Missouri’s 2nd Congressional District deserve more account-
ability and transparency than what we are seeing from the Biden
Administration.
Congress has appropriated this money for families facing the
threat of eviction, but less than 4 percent, which you are going to
hear over and over again, of the rental assistance funds have actu-
ally reached eligible households. It is unacceptable that Secretary
Yellen is not appearing before this committee when time is so ur-
gent. We have 2 weeks before expiration. She should be here today
to answer for the mismanagement of the Emergency Rental Assist-
ance Program: $46 billion, and less than 4 percent reaching those
who need it.

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Secretary Fudge, outside of Treasury’s Emergency Rental Assist-
ance Programs, HUD received tens of billions of dollars in Commu-
nity Development Block Grants and Homeless Assistance Grants
from the CARES Act, two different programs, almost a year-and-
a-half ago, and frankly, the vast majority of which remains
unspent. Only 12.3 percent of the $5 billion in the CARES Act’s
CDBG funds have yet been spent by grantees, while only 9.4 per-
cent of Homeless Assistance Grants in the CARES Act have been
spent.
What is this money, that is in your jurisdiction, Madam Sec-
retary—why are these funds delayed from reaching those who need
it the most?
Secretary FUDGE. Thank you for that question. I think it is a
great question. HUD has actually obligated, which means we have
given to grantees, more than 93 percent of all CARES money. Part
of the problem with the CARES money is that as communities re-
ceive the CARES money, and then they receive the COVID money,
the rescue money, what they determined was the CARES money is
the money that needed more planning, that gave them a longer pe-
riod of time to spend. And so, what they basically said was, ‘‘Let’s
spend the emergency money right away. CARES money, we want
to take the time to actually plan, so that no one will accuse us of
waste, fraud, and abuse,’’ which we often do when people harshly
and hastily spend Federal resources.
So, they are in the planning phase. They have almost 4 years left
on CARES dollars, so those are the dollars they are using last, but
they do have them.
Mrs. WAGNER. But the need is so great right now, Madam Sec-
retary. Let me get to my second question here, which is, I think,
a reflection of what we have seen with this patchwork quilt of dif-
ferent rental assistance programs. There has been a lot said about
the ability and inability of certain jurisdictions to build two, three,
or four different emergency rental assistance programs and keep
track of all the money, with so many competing rules and
timelines. And much of this, I think, has to do with the rules that
been set out, that are so onerous that they are not being properly
administered by our Federal agencies and overseen by our Federal
agencies, at both HUD and Treasury. So, there are competing rules
and timelines.
Given the limited experience and expertise of certain localities,
wouldn’t it be easier to run it if there was only one consolidated
program with one rule set?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, I don’t know that it would be easier. It
depends on what the rules would be. But I would certainly suggest
to you that most communities are accustomed to dealing with
HUD. They get most of their technical assistance from HUD, even
though Congress decided to send this money through Treasury.
Communities are accustomed to dealing with HUD.
Mrs. WAGNER. But we have sent a lot through HUD, too, Madam
Secretary.
Secretary FUDGE. I’m sorry?
Mrs. WAGNER. We have sent a lot through HUD, also.
Secretary FUDGE. And our resources are out, Mrs. Wagner.

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Mrs. WAGNER. But they are not being spent at the local level.
Those rules, that rule set, that oversight, that accountability comes
back up through your agency. I am not sure if my time is expiring.
I have not been watching. How much time do I have?
Well, I would just say that anything we can do to try and
streamline this progress, to get the money to both the renters and
the landlords who are suffering right now is what needs to be done,
not 4 years from now, right now.
I will yield back. I am sure I have used—
Secretary FUDGE. And I would agree with you.
Mrs. WAGNER. Thank you.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much. Let me deal, just
for a second, with this question about Secretary Yellen, as opposed
to Secretary Fudge and HUD. No, I did not invite Secretary Yellen
to intrude on the first time that Secretary Fudge would appear be-
fore us, and I don’t intend to treat women that way. And so, no,
Secretary Yellen is not here. She will be here when the quarterly
time is due, and that is it.
Mrs. WAGNER. And I very much look forward to that, Madam
Chairwoman. Thank you.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman from New York, Mr.
Meeks, who is also the Chair of the House Committee on Foreign
Affairs, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. MEEKS. Madam Secretary, I am delighted to see you, and
even more delighted with the job that you are already doing at
HUD. You have made increasing production and access to afford-
able housing a priority for HUD’s budget, and you have identified
our severe shortage of affordable housing as a barrier to the home
purchasing process.
As you know, since the financial crisis, private investors have fo-
cused much on real estate because of high yields. However, what
I am concerned about is that the private investors can often out-
compete potential first-time home buyers. Some cite cumbersome
FHA paperwork as slowing down the process for traditional home
buyers as well as making the rehab loan process expensive.
So my question is, can you consider or look at streamlining the
FHA loan process to put first-time home buyers in a better position
to compete with private firms in the home purchasing process?
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely, and we are doing that now, by
looking at a number of things. One is that HUD has not given a
lot of small-dollar loans, which are what people need to rehabilitate
their homes. But we are changing that. HUD has looked at credit
in a way that we think has been unfair to persons of color or low-
or moderate-income home buyers, because we have weighted stu-
dent debt differently than we have other debt.
So, we have created an environment in which people who carry
student debt, primarily Black people, Brown people, poor people,
and moderate-income people, and we have decided to weight that
differently to allow people to really be creditworthy at this stage.
We have also, in conjunction with our Chair, looked at down pay-
ment assistance. So, we are doing a lot of the things that you are
requesting, and I am just really happy that you brought it up.
Thank you so much.

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Mr. MEEKS. And I wanted to bring up the next one, homeowner-
ship, because it is important, in my estimation, in closing the
wealth gap, which has been a priority of mine and a priority of this
committee. And as you have just correctly stated, your key compo-
nent of achieving that is helping individuals build up equity
through homeownership. And again, because of the price of homes
skyrocketing, student borrowers, especially those of color, view
homeownership as unattainable. That is why I am so happy that
you have already taken on how you calculate student loan debt in
its underwriting process to better reflect what student borrowers
actually pay monthly, which is not often the sticker price, which
gives them an opportunity to become homeowners, build equity in
their homes, and thereby closing the wealth gap. That is so tre-
mendously important.
Maybe I should just ask you, can you explain a little bit more
how you are implementing that policy and your forecast of how
impactful that change will be for student borrowers, and especially
those of color?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, think about it this way, if I can just give
you a very quick example. Prior to our making the change, a per-
son who makes about $50,000 a year and has about $75,000 worth
of student debt could not be approved for a house that costs
$200,000, $225,000. They can now. That is the difference.
And the other thing I think is so important is the fact that we
make an assumption that if you have a lot of student debt, then
for some reason you are not creditworthy. But I know when I went
to school, my mother would have paid anything, every dime she
had, to make sure I had a good education. And so, it is not a mat-
ter of not being able to pay. We know most people who can afford
an apartment can afford a home. The good thing is that HUD actu-
ally secures more than 50 percent of all first-time home buyers’
mortgages, and it is something that comes within our shop, so we
can make a difference.
Mr. MEEKS. You are making a difference. I don’t know how much
time I have left.
Secretary FUDGE. A minute.
Mr. MEEKS. A minute? I thought it was 6 minutes.
[laughter]
Mr. MEEKS. But I will go until they stop me. Let me also ask—
I am a product of public housing in New York City, and there is
a big issue with the question of repairing public housing. In New
York City public housing, many of the buildings there—the one
that I grew up in, for example, is now 60-years-old. I recently went
to visit, and saw that a number of the apartments are beyond re-
pair
And so, I am hoping that in looking at some of these older insti-
tutions, and New York City’s Housing Authority is the largest
housing authority in the country, that we are looking at ways in
which we can make sure that we can rehabilitate the apartments
so that individuals can live in decent apartments in a timely fash-
ion, which they can afford.
Secretary FUDGE. We are looking at it.

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Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman’s time has expired. The
gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Huizenga, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. HUIZENGA. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Madam Sec-
retary, I do want to do one little piece of housekeeping here. There
has been lots of discussion, obviously, about whether Secretary
Yellen ought to be sitting with you today. Just to clear the air on
that, Secretary Yellen last appeared at this committee at the invi-
tation of the Chair, with Chair Powell. I think I called her Chair
Yellen there. But former Chair Yellen, now Secretary Yellen, was
invited to this committee with Chair Powell to do a joint CARES
quarterly meeting. That was in March. They were supposed to be
back in June. They have not been back. She has not been back.
And that March meeting is when she had made some commitments
about getting back to this committee.
So, there is no intention of disrespect to anyone. I am sure there
was no intention of disrespect to anybody back in March, when
both Secretary Yellen and Chair Powell were invited to a joint
hearing on this.
Onto some of the issues that we are talking about today, and I
have to tell you, I was a little taken aback when, I think in re-
sponse to my colleague from California, you mentioned that—and
I wrote this down—‘‘People can’t afford to live in California any-
more.’’ I think a lot of us see that, and realize that, and I think
a lot of people in California are seeing that and realizing it, which
is why they are moving out of California.
What is, I think, disturbing, or certainly confusing for a lot of us
is, then, does that simply mean because California has made Cali-
fornia very expensive to live in, that it is the rest of the country’s
responsibility to then subsidize those rents and to subsidize that
cost structure that California has imposed upon its own citizens?
And this could go for any State, whether it is Michigan or New
York or California.
I want to talk a little bit about a program here in Michigan. You
have expressed your strong support for down payment assistance
as a means of increasing minority homeownership, certainly an im-
portant goal for many of us. When I was in the State legislature
in Michigan, I chaired the Commerce Committee. I worked on a
number of housing issues at that time, and I am happy to be on
the subcommittee that is continuing to have that.
But I have to say, I was a little surprised to see that HUD an-
nounced recently that it would be pursuing rulemaking that would
restrict FHA financing for loans with this type of assistance. And
in my home State of Michigan, the Michigan State Housing Devel-
opment Authority runs a successful program that provides
Michiganders with up to $10,000 towards the purchase of their
first home.
So, could you shed some light on what HUD hopes to accomplish
with this particular rule, and can you assure me that it won’t nega-
tively impact successful programs like the one operated by Michi-
gan’s Housing Finance Authority?
Secretary FUDGE. Which rule are you referring to?

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Mr. HUIZENGA. There had been an announcement that HUD
would be pursuing a rulemaking regarding FHA financing loans
that have this assistance, down payment assistance.
Secretary FUDGE. I am thoroughly confused. Can you tell me—
Mr. HUIZENGA. My understanding is that there was an an-
nouncement by HUD that—and I can’t open the link, because I ac-
tually am using paper—but the link to it being cited, that it is
going to be pursuing rulemaking on this down payment assistance
program.
So are you saying that there is not going to be a rulemaking?
Secretary FUDGE. Let me say this to you, since I am not sure
what rule you are talking about; it is not clear to me. All of our
work is to advance down payment assistance. We want homeowner-
ship. We would do nothing—
Mr. HUIZENGA. Okay. Reclaiming my time here, so you can as-
sure me that it won’t negatively impact State programs like the
one that we have in Michigan?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes.
Mr. HUIZENGA. Wonderful. We will hold you to that. Staying on
that issue, one of the bills we are examining today would create a
new down payment assistance program that would be housed with-
in HUD, with a price tag of $100 billion. That program would actu-
ally be larger than your entire annual budget, which this Adminis-
tration has even increased. So given that there are approximately
2,500 national, State, and local programs like the one operated by
Michigan’s Housing Finance Authority, that are already providing
down payment assistance to first-time home buyers, I might add
without using taxpayer dollars, do you think that we need to be
spending limited resources duplicating these efforts for the Federal
program?
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman’s time has expired.
Mr. HUIZENGA. I will pursue that with a written question.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you. The gentleman from Georgia,
Mr. Scott, who is also the Chair of the House Agriculture Com-
mittee, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate that.
Secretary Fudge, I am so proud of you. You and I served together
in the House for many years, and you are doing a wonderful job
as Secretary.
Now, I want to pick this up in a way and deal with two issues.
I want to get to the rental one, because that has raised some issues
as well. But I think it is very important, because we have the na-
tion watching this. And while I am on that, Chairwoman Waters,
you are absolutely right. It was very important. This was her first
chance to come before this committee, and she deserves to have
this opportunity on her own. And I respect you and thank you for
doing that.
Now, I want to set the record straight. First of all, the White
House’s initial infrastructure proposal included a $213 billion in-
vestment to create and retrofit over 2 million affordable housing
units that were, and still are badly needed. But in the bipartisan
infrastructure agreement that provision did not make the cut.
So here we are, working our way through the infrastructure situ-
ation, and I think it is fair for us to hear from you. What do you

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see? What do you want? It is your job to deal with this. Tell us
what we must do, how much money we need to make sure is here
to get the job done.
Secretary FUDGE. Thank you very, very much. Just a couple of
things to frame this for you. There is no place in America today
where a person making minimum wage can afford a two-bedroom
apartment. Nowhere. Not just California. Nowhere. So, we know
that we need affordable housing.
And so, Mr. Scott, I would say to you that we are anticipating,
and very hopeful, that in the reconciliation in the Build Back Bet-
ter Plan, the resources will be there to build at least 2 million, but
we need far more. There are 11 million people in this country today
who are spending more than half of their money on rent. It cannot
continue. It cannot support itself.
So, we know that we need more, but we are hopeful that we will
at least get the resources to match what the President is asking
for in the Build Back Better Plan.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you. And now, let’s go to this rental issue, be-
cause we worked hard, and we did get nearly $47 billion there. But
I want you to, and I think the nation needs to know that you can
execute the program, but much of these funds go down to the
States to implement. How has that been handled, and do you see
difficulties in the States fulfilling their obligation, because in so
much of this—I have been involved in this for quite a while. You
were with us when we go all the way back to the hardest hit pro-
gram, when we sent billions of dollars down to our States and Ter-
ritories so that we could help homeowners stay in their homes. We
are doing the same thing with the renters. We even have morato-
riums going on.
But tell us how this works, and also tell us, does this money go
to the renter? Does it go to the landlord? How does it work? Amer-
ica may need to know.
Secretary FUDGE. Let me start at the back end. The money goes
to the landlords, so the landlords can be made whole, so that we
can get people current with their rent. But most importantly, part
of the problem has been that when we sent the money to the
States, and to anything other than CDBG or a formula city or com-
munity, the money was held up because they didn’t have the assist-
ance or the capacity to get it out fast enough.
So what we have been doing—personally, I have been calling
mayors and governors and others to say that we have to get the
money through the system. What we are seeing today is that the
numbers of resources that are getting out is increasing exponen-
tially every month.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman’s time has expired. The
gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Barr, is now recognized for 5 min-
utes.
Mr. BARR. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and to our former
colleague, congratulations on your appointment and confirmation.
I do want to echo the comments of the ranking member and my
colleagues about the Emergency Rental Assistance (ERA) program.
Perhaps it is right that you are here all by yourself in your first
appearance, but it is also right that Secretary Yellen should be

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here to testify, not just about the mismanagement of this programc,
but also her statutorily-mandated quarterly CARES oversight hear-
ing. I don’t know why she hasn’t yet appeared.
But let’s talk about the $46 billion appropriated by Congress and
only 4 percent of it that has actually reached renters. With vac-
cines distributed and available and many lockdowns ended, tax-
payers, I think, are asking the question, either this is too late be-
cause people now are working again, or it is not in time, because
the moratorium on evictions is about ready to expire.
I just think that this is the poster child for why hardworking tax-
payers are so critical of big government, bureaucratic programs like
that. I just want to ask you, Madam Secretary, given the fact that
you do have an obligation under Section 501(g) of the law to make
a report regarding the use of these ERA funds, what would you say
to the taxpayer out there who is frustrated that only 4 percent of
the $46 billion has actually been deployed? And many of these folks
are now back at work.
Secretary FUDGE. What I would say to the taxpayers is that both
Treasury and HUD have done exactly what we were directed to do
by this Congress. We have issued the resources. We are providing
the assistance. And I would further say that we are required to
make reports. There is a quarterly report coming. We don’t give
daily reports. But there is a quarterly report coming, and I think
that it will be more reflective of where we stand.
Mr. BARR. Can you see why taxpayers would be frustrated that
96 percent of the funds that Congress appropriated, back at the
height of the pandemic, have still not reached renters? Can you un-
derstand why taxpayers would be skeptical of future spending
blowouts like this, going forward?
Secretary FUDGE. I can understand why taxpayers would be con-
cerned if they are at risk of being evicted. There is no question
about that. I agree with you.
Mr. BARR. Well, yes. So to my point, for many of these renters
it is either too late, the money is too late getting to them, or if it
is not too late, then time is of the essence to deal with the arrears.
Secretary FUDGE. I agree.
Mr. BARR. I know you are working on it. I appreciate that. Just
understand, taxpayers are always going to be skeptical about big
government programs, precisely because of the mismanagement we
have seen here.
Housing First: I was encouraged by your exchange with Chair-
woman Waters earlier, when you discussed the need for services in
addition to just a roof over the head of a person struggling with
housing insecurity. I remain concerned that many transitional
housing facilities in my district and around the country, Madam
Secretary, are barred from receiving Federal Homelessness Assist-
ance Grant funding because they mandate wraparound services,
such as addiction treatment or job training, as a condition for con-
tinued residence. In many instances, these requirements are bene-
ficial for specific communities. Facilities like the Franklin County
Women and Family Shelter in my district, in central Kentucky, are
left behind, because their business model, which is demonstrably
effective in our community in getting homeless women into perma-

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nent housing and addiction-free lifestyles, doesn’t comply with a
one-size-fits-all qualification for funding availability.
For the sake of clarity, I am not proposing to end Housing First,
but I am proposing that we end the government’s exclusive reliance
on Housing First. HUD’s current policies create a situation like I
just described, where providers who have an excellent record of
successfully transitioning people out of homelessness are excluded
from government assistance.
Secretary Fudge, are you willing to work with Congress to ex-
plore innovative options to expand the universe of successful tran-
sitional housing programs that received Federal support?
Secretary FUDGE. I am certainly willing to, and I would really
love to talk to whomever you think we are being unfair to.
Mr. BARR. I would love to have you—the previous Secretary came
to my district. There are a lot of faith-based organizations in my
district and around the country that are not Housing First, but
have an excellent track record, and they are being systematically
denied Federal assistance, and discriminated against, because they
do not have this one-size-fits-all model of Housing First. But they
deliver results, and they don’t get your help.
And I do want to invite you to the 6th District of Kentucky, and
other districts around the country, in both blue and red districts,
where we have non-Housing First models that deliver for the home-
less population of this country.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman’s time has expired.
Mr. BARR. Yes, I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman said that the Secretary of
the Treasury should be here. The Secretary of the Treasury is not
here because the Chair did not invite her to be here, because she
should not be here.
With that, the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, who is also the
Chair of our Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, is now
recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. GREEN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
And I would add to your commentary that if we had the Sec-
retary of the Treasury here, we would be asking for the Secretary
of HUD. This is all about a major distraction. My colleagues on the
other side—many of them, not all—oppose a minimum wage. Many
of them fight against a living wage. They oppose subsidies for hous-
ing.
Yet, they are willing to spend billions on nuclear arms, Nimitz-
class aircraft carriers, bombers. But they oppose the things that
give people decent living conditions. Housing infrastructure has be-
come a bridge in my district for many people. The infrastructure
has become a tent, a lean-to, in my district.
Too many people are suffering, and Madam Chairwoman, I want
you to know that I totally, completely, and absolutely support the
Housing is Infrastructure Act of 2021 that you have proposed.
I support it, because nearly 50 percent of all U.S. renters are
cost-burdened and pay 30 percent or more of their income in hous-
ing. Seventy-one percent of the nation’s extremely low-income rent-
al households spend more than half of their incomes on rent and
utilities.

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And as the Secretary has mentioned, there is no State where a
full-time minimum wage worker can afford a two-bedroom unit. As
a result of the lack of investment into affordable housing infra-
structure, many families pay unaffordable rents or live in sub-
standard conditions.
Madam Secretary, do we need to proclaim housing as infrastruc-
ture?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes, absolutely. I think that the best way to
describe it, if I may, Mr. Green—when COVID began, the first
thing they said to us was to stay home. What happened if you
didn’t have a home?
They said, don’t send your children to school. Teach them vir-
tually. What happened if you didn’t have a home and you didn’t
have high-speed internet or broadband?
They said if you get sick, stay home. What do you do without a
home?
Mr. GREEN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I will yield
back the balance of my time.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you.
The gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, is now recognized for
5 minutes.
Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and it is wonderful
to see my old friend, Secretary Fudge, here.
And before we begin much more discussion, I would just note
that I think some of the concern—the Secretary knows the way my
mind works—some of the concern on my side of the room is that
when the eviction moratorium ends on July 31st, if we don’t have
those resources flowing, there are going to be a bunch of folks who
are going to be in a terrible jam at sunrise on August 1st.
So, it is a legitimate concern that I think is shared by both sides.
How do we make sure that doesn’t happen on the first day of Au-
gust?
That said, thank you for being here. For those of you who have
not served on another committee that the Secretary and I served
on for a long time, you wouldn’t know that we worked together on
a variety of conservation-related issues and rural development, and
from the Secretary, I learned more about algae bloom in the Great
Lakes than I might have otherwise ever have known. So, I appre-
ciate that relationship that we have had.
And you are in a unique position. Typically—not always, but
typically—House Members don’t become Cabinet Secretaries and
step up to that level of responsibility in the Executive Branch. So,
you have a vantage point, a view that most of us will never have.
If you don’t mind sharing for just a moment or two the things
that have caused you frustration but, by the same token, the things
that have been a positive surprise to you in your new role, things
you would not have had knowledge of sitting on this side of the
dais.
Secretary FUDGE. Thank you. It is good to see you, my friend, as
well.
The thing that I think has probably disappointed me the most is
that I find that as I come here or to other places, there is an as-
sumption that we don’t work hard to do the work to serve the
American people. We do. I inherited an agency that is overworked,

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understaffed, and yet they still do everything they can to take care
of the people we serve. I think sometimes we forget about the peo-
ple. That has disappointed me.
I think the thing that has encouraged me the most is that when-
ever I travel around the country and talk to people, they know we
care enough to fight to make it right. That is what has encouraged
me. People have hope that we are going to make it right, and I feel
really good about that.
Mr. LUCAS. In our time working together on the Agriculture
Committee, I think we were old-time legislators and we worked to
achieve consensus.
In your role as CBC Chair, you were critically important in help-
ing put the 2014 Farm Bill together, a comprehensive document
that addresses everything from producing food to people’s ability to
have enough to eat.
That seems to be out of style these days and has been for some
time. I hope, in your role as the Secretary, that you will continue
that spirit as you work with us.
And as I allude for a moment back to the concern about July
31st, there are some real challenges that are coming up that face
real people back home.
Sometimes, we all get a little excited and we pump a lot of
adrenaline here on both sides of the room and on both sides of the
building. But the bottom line is that we are here to represent those
citizens back home, to make sure they all have the ability to put
that foot on the first rung of the ladder to carry themselves on up,
and that we make things happen.
So as you address this issue about what happens after July 31st,
understand that it is a sincere concern by many people that we
don’t come up on what will be another catastrophe for good folks.
And along with that, if you don’t mind, I am a big proponent of
bringing the COVID-19 pandemic to an end, and that is using
science and technology to its very best. We now have a variety of
vaccines that are making a real difference out there. Can you dis-
cuss in your final moments how HUD has worked to leverage the
available resources to make sure that there is access to those
COVID-19 vaccines?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes, two things. Let me just say I am con-
cerned as well. There is no way that I want to see people put on
the street or evicted from their apartments or removed from their
homes. I am also concerned, and so we are doing everything we can
to prevent it. We have a short timeframe, but we know that every
single month, we are getting to more and more people and that ad-
ditional 30 days is going to make a significant difference.
As it relates to making sure that people are vaccinated, we are
at a point now where we have to take extraordinary steps. We are
already doing vaccination clinics in public housing facilities. We are
already doing them in almost any pop-up situation we can find,
working along with HHS.
Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, my friend. I yield back.
And thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you. The gentleman’s time has ex-
pired.

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The gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, who is also the Chair
of our Subcommittee on Housing, Community Development, and
Insurance, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you, Madam Chairewoman.
Secretary Fudge, I want to know a couple of things that I think
my colleague just raised, and that is the whole issue of the vaccine.
As you may know, Missouri has been on fire with COVID for the
last week or so, leading the nation in new cases and hospitaliza-
tions.
I don’t know how many individuals who are living in public hous-
ing or some form of HUD housing are involved in this crisis. But
is there a plan that is being implemented in HUD housing that is
in some way trying to guide residents into accessing the COVID
vaccine?
Secretary FUDGE. There are a couple of things happening. First,
we are working with HHS to be sure that the vaccine is in the
places where we believe it is needed most. There still are some
minor access issues.
But the bigger issue is the educational portion of it. Because you
talk about Missouri on—it is on fire, but it is a fire that is caused
by unvaccinated people, most of whom choose to be unvaccinated,
and there is really not a whole lot we can do about that other than
to continue to tell them why they should be vaccinated and to con-
tinue to make available the vaccine.
It is in every single pharmacy. We have pharmacies that are
staying open now every Friday, 24 hours a day, to be sure that peo-
ple don’t have a problem with getting off work. Twenty-four hours
every single Friday, every single week.
If you want to drop your kids off at daycare, we have a place that
will do that for you. Everything that we can think of to do, we are
doing, to make sure the vaccine is available.
Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you.
The other issue, and I am sure you are getting a lot of inquiries
about this, is manufactured housing and tiny housing.
Like many other places, we are having difficulty finding places
in our community, in the urban part of my district, and so we are
struggling. Some areas are rejecting tiny homes, and some are re-
jecting manufactured housing. Almost all of them rejected—no mat-
ter what the housing is, if it is related to housing those who are
without any shelter.
There is nothing HUD can do to remove this, ‘‘Not in My Back-
yard (NIMBY)’’ philosophy. But are there any success stories in the
tiny home process or manufactured homes?
Secretary FUDGE. Manufactured homes is something, of course,
we interact with all the time. You can build a manufactured home
for something very reasonable, someplace in the $100,000 range.
They are fast to put up. They are easily installed, and they are an
alternative, I believe.
But the problem we have, and you know yourself as a former
mayor, is that zoning and planning create lots of problems for us.
And so, what we are trying to do now is engage communities to
talk about the zoning such that it increases the cost of housing, it
keeps people out, and that is even in addition to NIMBY. So, there
are issues that we are working on, and we do believe that until we

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start to address it, we are going to continue to always perpetually
be in this kind of a situation.
Mr. CLEAVER. You hit on something, I think, that I want to ad-
dress with the U.S. Conference of Mayors, and that is—and maybe
we need a conference with the mayors to talk about this whole
issue of zoning.
I was on a call with people involved in housing from around the
country last week and everybody was talking about the same issue
that you just raised, and that is zoning, and I think we need to
have a revolution in how we do zoning, because we are zoning pov-
erty, and it needs to change.
At some point, I think maybe HUD should consider some kind
of program with mayors to just get mayors to understand the prob-
lem that is going to continue until we begin to address the issue
of zoning.
Secretary FUDGE. And let me just say, I was in Denver last week,
and in Denver, the average price of a home is $700,000. In Boulder,
it is over $800,000.
The thing that they were complaining about was not necessarily
more housing, but that they can’t get workers, and why? Because
workers can’t afford to live there. They can’t live close enough to
be there. So not only do they have a housing crisis, they have a
worker shortage.
And these are things we have to address.
Mr. CLEAVER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Williams, is now recognized.
Mr. HUIZENGA. Madam Chairwoman, a point of order?
Chairwoman WATERS. Yes. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. HUIZENGA. Thank you. I would like to request unanimous
consent—during my questioning about the rulemaking with the
Secretary, we either miscommunicated, or Secretary Fudge is un-
aware of a rule that was proposed in the spring of 2021. It is titled,
‘‘Mortgage Insurance for Mortgage Transactions Involving Down-
payment Assistance Programs.’’ Alissa Saunders is the contact.
This is through OMB, the website, reginfo.gov. And I ask unani-
mous consent to submit it for the record.
Chairwoman WATERS. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. HUIZENGA. Thank you very much.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Williams,
is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. WILLIAMS OF TEXAS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
And I want to join my colleagues in expressing my disappoint-
ment also with how emergency rental assistance aid is still sitting
idle while renters and landlords are waiting for help.
Secretary Fudge, it’s good to have you here today. As you are
aware, bank participation in the FHA program has dropped dra-
matically in the last several years, and in speaking with some of
my friends back home in Texas, the Texas bankers, they say this
is because of two main factors: first, the high cost of servicing FHA
loans; and second, enforcement actions taken under the False
Claims Act.
Several major FHA lenders were hit with unreasonable fines for
what amounted to nonmaterial underwriting errors under this Act,

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which has caused many to simply stop participating in the program
rather than run the risk of being fined for minor errors.
And in response, the FHA made some changes to the quality con-
trol process, and the Department of Justice put in place a memo-
randum of understanding (MOU) to try to create some more cer-
tainty within the industry.
I am sure that we all agree that banks need to be held account-
able for major violations of this Act if they were intentionally try-
ing to defraud the government.
However, I also don’t think we should expose lenders to high
penalties for minor violations, and the housing market might be
stronger if we had more competition, which I am a big supporter
of, and competing banks participated in this program.
So my question is, can you provide us with some assurances that
the Department of Justice MOU will remain in place, and then go
into detail, any detail you want, on additional steps that the FHA
is taking to attract more banks back to the FHA lending program?
Secretary FUDGE. Certainly. We are always willing to take a look
at things. But I would suggest to you that FHA is probably in a
better position than it has been in a very, very long time.
And I think that as it relates to the false claims, I know that is
being worked on, and so I am happy to have a conversation with
anybody on your staff about it.
Mr. WILLIAMS OF TEXAS. Okay.
My last question is about the FHA, again, its multifamily depart-
ment. I have been told there are massive wait times for some
apartment deals to go through with people having to wait between
6 months to a year before even being assigned an underwriter.
And I have seen this a lot. These delays are making it less at-
tractive for private developers to come in and invest their money
to increase the supply of affordable housing that we need across
the country. And I saw that the FHA contracted out some of the
underwriting work to the private sector, but so far it has not had
any impact on reducing these wait times.
So, Secretary Fudge, what are you doing to work through this
backlog of multifamily deals so we can increase our housing supply
and ensure developers are able to deploy capital in a timely man-
ner and get people in homes?
Secretary FUDGE. You are absolutely right. In the past, that has
been what has happened. We are on top of it. We are changing the
process. We are streamlining the process. I think, going forward,
they will see a much shorter period of time.
Mr. WILLIAMS OF TEXAS. Well, in the end, it helps those looking
for homes to live in.
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely.
Mr. WILLIAMS OF TEXAS. Thank you for being here.
I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentlewoman from Ohio, Mrs. Beatty,
who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on Diversity and Inclu-
sion, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. BEATTY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you to
Secretary Fudge.

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Let me start by simply saying the title of this hearing is, ‘‘Over-
sight on HUD.’’ I will just cut it short. ‘‘HUD.’’ It is not, ‘‘Oversight
of HUD and the United States Treasury.’’
And for the record, Madam Chairwoman, I wanted to note that
I do not expect Secretary Fudge to be accountable for Secretary
Yellen. I do not expect her to answer or speak for her, nor did I
expect Secretary Carson to speak for Secretary Mnuchin. And I
know he couldn’t. He could barely defend why he took 16.4 percent
of HUD’s budget before he got started.
I would like to remind my colleagues that Secretary Fudge has
only been in this position for about 6 months. So, let me educate
my colleagues and those listening. She has crisscrossed the United
States for housing. She came to the State of Ohio and met with a
bipartisan team of housing experts.
Let me also say, to allocate 100 percent of the rental housing
funds to State and local governments, we should be saying, thank
you.
In my district alone, having them receive the money—that part,
my colleagues got correct. We should be applauding her for getting
all the dollars there for rental assistance.
Now, it went to the State and local governments to do that. Let
me share with you and paraphrase what she said to State and local
governments in the capital city of Ohio with—including our mayor
sitting there.
She said, ‘‘Allocate the funds and help these individuals who are
in need.’’
Thank you for the investments in the nation’s housing infrastruc-
ture as part of the Biden Build Back Better plan, rolling back ac-
tions of the Trump Administration which set us back and under-
mined the Fair Housing Act. So, thank you.
Now, I do have a question, if I have enough time, but I want to
say thank you to your entire team. They have been amazing in re-
sponding and reaching out earlier this year.
I have a bill, the Housing Financial Literacy Act, that passed the
House with overwhelming bipartisan support. This bill would give
FHA borrowers a 0.25 basis point discount upfront on their mort-
gage insurance for first-time home buyers in exchange for taking
a HUD-approved prepurchase housing course.
And this bill lowered the down payment rate for first-time home
buyers by more than $500 on average, and likely lowered the de-
fault rate within the FHA’s portfolio.
Under the current law, the FHA has the authority to implement
this program, which it did between 1996 and 2000. So would you
consider asking your team to reimplement this discount program
for first-time home buyers?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes, we are really pushing that towards the
front of the line. We are having discussions about it.
Mrs. BEATTY. Thank you. And in my last minute, that I would
be honored to yield to you, is there anything you would like to say
to this committee?
Secretary FUDGE. Thank you so much.
I would say to this committee that I have not been gone from
here that long, so I understand your concerns. I am doing every-

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thing that I possibly can do to make sure that we are good stew-
ards of the resources we have been given.
Just give me time to make it happen. I have been there for 4
months. When I was sitting on your side of the table, I would prob-
ably have been asking the same questions. So, I am good with that.
But know that I know how to do it, we have the people to do it,
and we will do it.
Mrs. BEATTY. Madam Chairwoman, I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much.
The gentleman from Arkansas, Mr. Hill, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. HILL. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
And once again, Secretary Fudge, it’s great to have you before
the committee and, again, let me add to all of my colleagues’ con-
gratulations for your service to our country as our HUD Secretary.
I listened to the chairwoman talk what might have been last
summer in terms of getting the rental assistance money started
sooner. But last summer, the Congress was faced with sort of an
all-or-nothing play.
We were going to pass the HEROES Act or have no discretion
to target money that we really felt, on a bipartisan basis, needed
to be targeted, and so we went for days and days without starting
the Paycheck Protection Program back up.
It expired on August 5th last year, and we could have gotten a
targeted bipartisan relief on rental assistance, but we didn’t. So, it
passed in December, and $25 billion of that money in the Appro-
priations bill has been 100-percent allocated to the States.
And of the $21 billion that was in the American Rescue package,
only 50 percent of that money has been allocated. So, it hasn’t all
been allocated. I wanted to correct the record that, in fact, it has
not been all allocated. I think that is an important point.
And the ranking member noted the Washington Post story by
Rachel Siegel, ‘‘Five-Alarm Fire: Slow Trickle of Rental Aid Height-
ens Concern About Evictions Crisis.’’
Madam Chairwoman, I ask unanimous consent to submit this ar-
ticle for the record.
Chairwoman WATERS. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. HILL. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
And in this article, there is a quote from Diane Yentel, president
and CEO of the National Low Income Housing Coalition.
She says, ‘‘Setting up rental assistance programs from scratch is
a major and time-consuming undertaking, true. But by now—re-
peat by now—that is no excuse for the abysmally slow pace of
spending in some communities.’’
I think that lays the stage, and so I ask you, Madam Secretary,
who should be held accountable for getting this money out? Just
within the Administration, who is the point person, in your view,
to get this money out to our tenants and our landlords who need
it?
Secretary FUDGE. The people who now have it, which is the cities
and the States. Diane Yentel is absolutely right. It took some time
to stand up the new program. The resources are there.
That is why I am constantly calling mayors and governors and
other people to say, ‘‘You are the cog in this. Get it out.’’ They know

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they have the resources. They will say to me, especially smaller
communities, ‘‘Well, we didn’t have the people to do it. We don’t
know how to do it.’’
So, we provide that assistance to them. But it is their responsi-
bility because they have the resources. It is no different than if it
is CDBG money or any other kind of formula money or competitive
money.
Once they receive it, they are responsible for it. We are respon-
sible for the oversight, but they are responsible for the program.
Mr. HILL. But it is a challenge when some of these States have
never done that before, and that was the decision by Congress.
I think the Treasury Secretary and you have, really, the dis-
proportionate responsibility to try to set those parameters and get
that out, because the money was distributed in January, and it is
almost the 1st of August, and as I said in my opening comments,
a tiny portion, just seven tenths of 1 percent of that money in Ar-
kansas has been spent, and just 4 percent, overall.
Let me switch subjects, if I may. You referenced 50-year-old
housing unit stock and made that a point, and HUD, over the
years, starting with the Obama Administration, has had the Rental
Assistance Demonstration (RAD) program, which was started in
2011 to preserve and maintain affordable housing by allowing pub-
lic housing authorities to convert public housing units into Section
8 Project-Based Rental Assistance.
HUD Secretary for President Obama, Shaun Donovan, created
that program and he said, ‘‘The administration created RAD as a
comprehensive and innovative strategy that offers long-term solu-
tion to preserve and enhance the country’s vital affordable housing
stock by finding ways to get private capital off the sidelines and
back into communities.’’
Donovan goes on to say, ‘‘RAD is a model of smart government.’’
So my question to you is, do you agree with Secretary Donovan
that RAD is smart government?
Secretary FUDGE. I think it is a great program, because the thing
about it is it still is maintained as public housing. They don’t own
it. The private industries don’t own it. They have leveraged the re-
sources.
But it is a problem we are looking at, because the one thing we
have to be very, very careful about, and I know that Members of
Congress are, is that we don’t start to go down a road of privatizing
public housing.
Mr. HILL. Okay. Let me ask you one follow-up quickly. Do you
support lifting the statutory cap that currently limits RAD partici-
pation to a maximum of 455,000 units?
Secretary FUDGE. I don’t know that I—we are still looking at it.
But I would suggest to you that I think that we should consider
raising it, yes.
Mr. HILL. Thank you. I yield back, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman yields back.
The gentlewoman from Pennsylvania, Ms. Dean, is now recog-
nized for 5 minutes.
Ms. DEAN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Secretary Fudge, welcome. Welcome back. It is a delight to be
here with you and we are delighted that you are here alone speak-

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ing about homelessness, affordable housing, repairs to our housing
stock, and increases to our housing stock.
When you talk about how we were all told to stay home when
COVID hit, it is very poignant that hundreds of thousands of peo-
ple in this country had no place to call home, and that continues
to this day.
I represent suburban Philadelphia, Montgomery County and
Berks County. We have the Montgomery County public housing au-
thority, which serves a large portion of Montgomery County, Penn-
sylvania.
It has a portfolio of 625 units and a waiting list of over 20,000
applicants. Simply put, and you have said it over and over, there
is not enough affordable housing for those who need it.
Could you tell us from the American Jobs Plan with some speci-
ficity how that proposal, this transformational American jobs plan,
will make an impact on that tremendous need that is in my dis-
trict, and, I imagine, is mirrored throughout this country?
Secretary FUDGE. Thank you very much for the question.
As a nation, we have not at any time in recent history, for dec-
ades, invested in public housing or new moderate- and low-income
housing. We just have not done it.
And so, time has finally caught up with us. That is where we
find ourselves today. So, the President, in the American Jobs Plan,
recognized the fact that millions and millions of people need hous-
ing.
In that plan originally, if you recall, there was $300 billion set
aside just to do housing. There is a new housing tax credit to
incentivize persons to build new housing. That is in addition to the
low-income housing tax credits.
The plan right now looks like it is about $200 billion, but neither
the amount of money—it is the housing, 2 million new units, and
up to 500,000 renovated and rehabilitated units, units that are en-
ergy-efficient, units that are resilient, and units that will keep the
costs down for the people who live in them.
It is the most significant piece of housing legislation in my life-
time.
Ms. DEAN. It is very exciting, and I do hope we will get it across
the finish line with really broad bipartisan support.
You referenced another problem in my district, which is that
many of our housing units are 40 years or more old. We have had
the opportunity through some investment to renovate some and re-
construct others.
But, really, the capital needs are very, very great. Just outside
my district in Philadelphia, more than 60 percent of the housing
stock was built more than 50 years ago.
Do you believe that the American Jobs Plan funds will be able
to cover the full scope of what is needed? If you had a magic wand,
what would be needed to make the repairs so that these are decent,
as you say, energy-efficient, safe, warm, dry places?
Secretary FUDGE. Forty billion dollars is really a down payment.
We know that we need so much more. It is estimated anywhere be-
tween $70 billion and $100 billion or more. But what we do know
is that $40 billion is a great down payment to start to make the
change we need to make.

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And it is a commitment that I believe that housing authorities
and others are welcoming because they know we have never, ever
given them these kinds of resources.
Do I think it is enough? No.
Do I think it is a great start? Yes.
Ms. DEAN. Terrific. Thank you.
I want to switch now to something else I care passionately about,
which is ensuring proper housing for those who suffer from the dis-
ease of substance use disorder, addiction, or those with mental
health ailments.
We know, oftentimes, these people are unable to find affordable
proper housing when that is precisely what they need to stabilize
their lives, receive treatment, and begin to heal.
What efforts is HUD leading for these populations of people who
either are struggling with the disease of addiction or mental health
issues? What is HUD doing about housing for them?
Secretary FUDGE. There is a carve-out in the Jobs Plan that asks
for billions of dollars for housing for the disabled, which would in-
clude the population that you are referencing.
Ms. DEAN. Thank you very much, and I hope we make sure it
is a robust carve-out for those. And offline, because I see my time
is up, we did signal over to your team that we want to talk about
the problem of the definition of group homes for those who are in
recovery, and unlicensed group homes that are sometimes taking
great advantage of people who are in the greatest of need.
Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much.
The gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Kustoff, is now recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you,
Madam Secretary, for appearing today. Let us see if you would wel-
come the opportunity to talk about something other than what we
have talked about here before, and that is Opportunity Zones, if I
could.
We know that the Opportunity Zones were created in the Tax
Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. In my State of Tennessee, at last count
I saw we had 176 Opportunity Zones, 32 in Shelby County, which
is the Memphis area, an area that I represent with Congressman
Steve Cohen.
And in 2019, I had the opportunity to tour one of those zones,
an area called Union Row. It is now called the Walk. That is actu-
ally in Congressman Steve Cohen’s district. I toured that with your
predecessor, Secretary Carson.
Madam Secretary, could you talk about the Biden Administra-
tion’s position right now? Is the Biden Administration, in fact, open
to expanding Opportunity Zones?
Secretary FUDGE. I don’t think they have taken a position at all
at this point. But certainly, we are going to be talking about it, be-
cause not only have Senate Members mentioned it as well, but it
is something that some people feel very, very good about. So, we
will be having further conversations.
Mr. KUSTOFF. And to that point, Madam Secretary, can you talk
about what specific changes, if any, or reforms that the Adminis-

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tration would look at to the existing Opportunity Zones or to fur-
ther Opportunity Zones, if you would, please?
Secretary FUDGE. I don’t know, because we have not had the dis-
cussions.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you. Could you also, Madam Secretary, talk
about where the Biden Administration stands right now as to the
Biden appraisal task force that HUD was guarded with the leader-
ship of?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes. As a matter of fact, I am the Chair of the
task force, and what we are talking about is what we know to be
true, that we have throughout this nation’s history looked at prop-
erty in certain communities, primarily those that are Black and
Brown, and undervalued those homes.
I live in an all-Black community by choice. My home is under-
valued compared to the community right next door to me, literally
within walking distance. But my home is valued as much as
$20,000 less than a comparable home in another community.
We want to level the playing field.
Mr. KUSTOFF. I hear from a number of FHA borrowers that they
say they can’t compete in today’s market, that sellers are refusing
to entertain offers using FHA financing due to concerns with cer-
tain minimum property requirements, maybe with appraisal issues,
or concerns over the quality of the loan itself.
Can you talk about what FHA is doing to combat the narrative
and, hopefully, try to address these issues?
Secretary FUDGE. The first thing is they can’t be using appraisals
at this point. We just started the committee. So if they have been
having problems in the past, it certainly wasn’t that.
And I don’t think that there is anything that I see, no basis—
if they are concerned, they need to raise what those exact concerns
are. But there is nothing that has been changed to this point that
would create a problem for them.
Mr. KUSTOFF. If I could, one last area, and I appreciate you al-
lowing me to jump to different issues.
This involves the Community Development Block Grant program,
and I think we can all agree that it has served a vital role.
My question is about Formula B, which uses a pre-1940 housing
units variable in determining grant sizes. My position would be
that that essentially allows cities which had large populations 80
or 90 years ago to receive larger grants today.
And I will use, again, my City of Memphis as an example. In the
year 2020, the City of Baltimore received 3 times as much funding
as Memphis, despite Baltimore having a lower population and pov-
erty rate than Memphis in current times.
Can you address, if you can address, whether you think that
CDBG, whether the formula is outdated and in fact does need to
be modernized?
Secretary FUDGE. I certainly think we need to take a look at it
just like we do so many other formulas in HUD. We are in the
process of evaluating where we stand. Absolutely, I think we
should look at it.
Mr. KUSTOFF. And I do appreciate that answer. I would appre-
ciate it if your staff could follow up with my staff on any thoughts
and any proposals, and maybe we could share ideas.

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Secretary FUDGE. I would be happy to.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Madam Secretary.
With that, Madam Chairwoman, I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you. The gentleman’s time has ex-
pired.
The gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Garcia, is now recognized for
5 minutes.
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and
thank you so much for this very important hearing, and for our in-
vitation to Secretary Fudge.
And, Madam Secretary, it just sounds so great to say that. In
fact, I am going to say it again. ‘‘Madam Secretary.’’
Welcome to your first hearing before the Financial Services Com-
mittee. I know many of us join you and stand with you in your suc-
cess, and if there is anything that I or my office can do, please do
not hesitate to call.
I want to focus on housing, of course, particularly access to hous-
ing. Research shows that access to housing equals a healthy pro-
ductive society. Access to housing means access to building
generational wealth. It also means closing the racial wealth gap.
It is estimated that between 2020 and 2040, 70 percent of new
homeowners will be Latino. And Freddie Mac found that in 2019,
there were 8.3 million mortgage-ready Latinos aged 45 and under.
The National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals
found that the top-producing real estate firms are the ones that
offer bilingual services throughout all stages of the home-buying
process.
In light of this, it is important that we think about how we can
use language access to expand access to housing. It is great to see
that HUD’s housing counseling agencies provide multilingual serv-
ices, and as you said about the homeless, if we don’t provide serv-
ices, we set them up for failure, and we want our home buyers to
succeed.
This is a critical service. It is important to home buyers strug-
gling to navigate such a cumbersome financial decision. The Amer-
ican Rescue Plan provided $100 million for housing counseling to
help struggling families stay in their homes. But housing coun-
selors do not always have the ability to assist homeowners with
legal help when they need it.
Is HUD reviewing how they can connect housing counseling with
legal aid services in the future? And if so, how is HUD working
with counseling agencies and legal aid services to ensure access for
homeowners who do not primarily speak English?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes. We right now have about $20 million
from, actually, funds that were allocated by Congress to assist with
legal issues, especially.
It was designed, of course, for those who are facing eviction, but
it can be used for other things. So, we do have $20 million now that
came from the Rescue Plan.
In addition to which, we do know as well that the wealth gap or
the gap between homeownership for Black and White Americans is
as wide today as it was in 1968, and so we understand very clearly
the need to be sure that we can bring in Black and Brown people
in a way that is comfortable to them.

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So, we do have resources and we are working on it daily to make
sure that we do—
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. And they will also address services for
those who cannot speak English or have language barriers?
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely. Language, yes.
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Well, thank you so much. And there is
much being said about how many dollars have actually been spent,
and I think it is clear that you have said that 100 percent of the
dollars have been obligated that were received.
And we all know, as you have also stated, that the problem be-
comes, you send it to the States, and then the States do not put
it out there quickly enough, or sometimes they sort of play with the
money and don’t do quite what we asked them to do.
And as you know, you and I have visited about the situation with
the CDBG dollars for disaster mitigation in Houston and as they
were handled in Texas. We had a hearing about that last week.
And it is just another example of how the dollars are sent but
the governors—sometimes, governors from the other side of the
aisle, in our case, just decide to either delay or do their own for-
mulas, or do whatever they want to with the dollars.
What can we do as lawmakers to prevent those situations from
happening? What other guardrails, what other procedures can we
do?
And is it possible that some of these dollars go directly to cities
like Houston who can probably handle the dollars and have the re-
sources and staff to quickly get those dollars out the door?
Secretary FUDGE. The good thing is that cities like Houston do
get it directly because they are entitlement cities, which is any-
thing over 50,000 people.
But I would say that I was in this body long enough to have
heard many, many times that States have their rights. They should
be able to do what they want to do. And cities have their rights,
and they should be able to do what they want to do.
Now, they want me to control it. There is only so much we can
do based upon the way that the law is written, but but we are en-
forcing it as best we can.
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Thank you. I yield back.
Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you.
The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Loudermilk, is now recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Madam Secretary, it is good to see you again, and congratula-
tions on your new role.
As you know, the primary funding source for many housing au-
thorities is this monthly drawdown from HUD. However, guidance
from the Office of the Chief Financial Officer states that HUD
auditors do not recognize interim directors. Only permanent offi-
cials can obtain drawdowns. What that means is when a housing
authority has an interim director as a transition period, it may not
be able to access HUD funds.
Interim directors were able to do drawdowns in the past. I am
not sure why the policy changed. But this is becoming a problem
and it is a problem with small cities, especially with small staffs.

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It recently happened in my district. The City of Canton had an
interim director, and they were unable to draw down the money
that they needed. They were able to come to a one-time resolution
with HUD.
But there are thousands of State and local housing authorities in
the country that frequently have executive directors leave their po-
sition and an interim director is appointed.
I understand the intent of the policy is to potentially prevent
fraud, but there needs to be some kind of process for interim direc-
tors to access the downloads.
So my question would be, is this something that you can look
into and find a permanent solution, so that housing authorities, es-
pecially during this time period we are in right now, don’t have to
go through so many hoops to—if they have an interim director in
the middle of the change to where they can actually access the
funds for their folks?
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely, because if that is the case, we do
need to look into it. That should not be an impediment to a draw-
down.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. I appreciate that, and like I said, with the City
of Canton, Georgia, recently they had to go through this.
They were able to work through a one-time solution. But if they
don’t have an executive director by the time the next month comes
in, they are going to have to go through that again.
On another issue, I would like to echo some of the concerns that
have been raised regarding mismanagement of emergency rental
assistance funds.
The bipartisan December Omnibus provided a structure for a $25
billion rental assistance program, but instead of continuing with
that program, Democrats established an entirely new partisan pro-
gram from scratch. This has created two different sets of rules for
State and local governments to follow, and has resulted in less
than 4 percent of the funds being distributed so far.
This has created some of, potentially, the worst legislating that
I have seen, with two different programs, with two different sets
of rules, that cities and States are trying to work through.
So the question is, if Congress consolidated the two programs
into one, would that help get the funds out to renters more quickly?
Secretary FUDGE. I think that Congress should do what they be-
lieve is best. I can’t make a decision adjustment based on what
Congress will do. But I would say that the more streamlined, the
better. What HUD does is follow the rules. When Congress tells us
how to do something, that is what we do.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. Well, I understand that, but with two sets of
rules for two different types of programs that want to accomplish
the same thing, it gets very convoluted, and State and local govern-
ments already have enough trouble dealing with the Federal Gov-
ernment.
But with only 4 percent of the funds making it down there, it
seems to me that if we could get a functioning rental assistance
program into place, would there be a need for an eviction morato-
rium?

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Secretary FUDGE. Well, I think that the one thing that we don’t
talk about is that the fact that these funds were put in place be-
cause of an emergency situation.
I think coming out of COVID—either way, we would have needed
it because of COVID. I don’t know that as a general rule we would,
but certainly because of COVID, I would say yes.
Mr. LOUDERMILK. Okay. But even with COVID, only 4 percent
being distributed—it seems to me that if we could just get the
money to the people who need it, we wouldn’t have to have the
eviction moratorium.
With that, Madam Chairwoman, I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you.
The gentlewoman from Iowa, Mrs. Axne, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mrs. AXNE. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you,
Secretary Fudge, for being here. It is great to have you here today.
I want to start with a question on rental assistance. I know this
has been run out of the Treasury. But I also know that HUD has
been helping State and local groups trying to run those programs.
Iowa’s State program has not done well in getting this aid out.
I believe at the end of June, they had given out just about 2 per-
cent of the funding they had received.
However, I don’t quite understand why my Republican colleagues
here on the other side of the aisle are so hung up on the Treasury
here.
I have a local program in Polk County that has now given out
more than two-thirds of the funding. It is the largest, most popu-
lated county in the State. So, we can get it out there and to the
folks who need it, but, apparently, our State Government can’t.
Clearly, this is not a question of the rules preventing it. It is
about, really, communities who have the will and the knowledge to
get the funding out and support the people properly.
Secretary Fudge, my question is, can you share some of what
HUD sees as best practices here so we can encourage our States
to adopt those?
Secretary FUDGE. The easiest thing is for communities, whether
it be the State or the county or whomever, to work with people who
do this every day.
Most people who are at risk of eviction either have worked with
social workers or we know who their landlords are. We need to do
the work. They need to do the work. They want it to be easy.
But they have to start to talk with people on the ground who are
doing this every day. It is not hard to find out who they are and
to get them the resources. But we also have made it somewhat
cumbersome for the renters.
We assume a certain amount of sophistication for renters to get
the resources because we are putting the onus on renters, really,
to come and ask for the resources. So, we have to find another way
to reach those renters and to get them the kind of information they
need to get those resources out.
Mrs. AXNE. I look forward to continuing to work with you on
those opportunities, and I will make sure to talk with the State
about that.

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They sound like good ideas and I, certainly, know that as you
mentioned, in Polk County, they actually are working with those
local groups. So, you are right, it works.
I did want to also point out another thing I am wondering about.
Our governor decided not to give people the 3 months of forward
rent that they could, and to me, it seems like a pretty clear way
to provide help to people without making the same person apply
every single month, and it is also going to make administering of
this easier as well.
Is that something that you have seen elsewhere and do you agree
that this would raise costs if people have to apply repeatedly?
Secretary FUDGE. There is no question, and one of the complaints
we get is that it is too much paperwork. So, why create additional
paperwork?
Mrs. AXNE. Okay. So it would be a good thing for us to continue
to move forward with that? It would ease up the pressures on the
application process?
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely.
Mrs. AXNE. Thank you. I do hope that our State Government can
put this in place as it reconsiders passing up the opportunity to
help more renters in the second round.
I would like to move on now to something that I think could help
with affordable housing across this country, and that is manufac-
tured housing, which I think can be part of our solution to helping
get a good solid roof over folks’ heads.
However, for those who own the home itself but rent the land,
they don’t get that benefit if the rent gets jacked up to levels that
they can’t afford, or if the landlord kicks them out for no reason,
forcing them to sell their home, sometimes at a major loss.
I actually had a constituent who had to sell their home for a 40-
percent loss of what she paid for it just 3 years earlier, because of
these predatory tactics.
Secretary Fudge, do you think there is more that we can do to
make manufactured housing communities work as affordable hous-
ing that truly prioritizes the tenants rather than solely focusing on
extracting profit?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes, we can, and I have spoken with the manu-
factured housing group. I have also spoken with tenants of not just
public housing, but manufactured housing as well.
And we are trying to work through some issues that we think are
going to be helpful. But they know that there is a problem, and we
know that there is a problem, so I do believe it can work.
Mrs. AXNE. And are you pulling together best practices from
some of those landlords who are doing the right thing?
Secretary FUDGE. Oh, absolutely.
Mrs. AXNE. Okay. I would love to see some of those if we get a
chance. Thank you so much for doing that.
It is why I introduced a couple of bills to get these protections
in place so things like this don’t happen. Just so you know, I have
the Manufactured Housing Tenant’s Bill of Rights that would in-
crease protections for renters in federally-backed properties, and
the Manufactured Housing Community Preservation Act that pro-
vides grants to resident-owned groups and others who might want

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to step up and own the places themselves and give those benefits
to the residents.
So, I hope we can work together on those to get people more pro-
tected and safe in their homes that they currently live in, and also
give other folks more opportunity for affordable housing.
Thank you so much, Madam Secretary, for all that you are doing,
and thank you for helping us move this agenda forward with the
American people.
I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you.
The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Gonzalez, is now recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and
welcome, Secretary Fudge, my friend. It is good to see you. We
miss you in Cleveland, but Cleveland is so very proud of you and
we are grateful for your continued service to the country.
I want to start off by talking about something we have spoken
about in private, which is veterans’ homelessness. That is some-
thing that is a big issue in our country, and it’s certainly a big pri-
ority of mine here in Congress.
In your written statement, you noted that HUD’s mission is to
create strong, sustainable, inclusive communities and quality af-
fordable homes for all.
As you know, this certainly means ensuring that our veterans
have access to affordable housing after serving our country. I be-
lieve no veteran should have to worry about having a roof over his
or her head. Currently, throughout the United States, there are
still far too many veterans who are homeless, and countless more
who are at risk of losing their homes.
What more do you think we can be doing through HUD in col-
laboration with the VA and those who serve our veterans to extend
more housing opportunities?
Secretary FUDGE. That is a really great question, and I tell you,
it is something that I wrestle with every day, and I have had the
opportunity to speak with Secretary McDonough.
There is no reason, first off, in this nation that anyone should
be homeless, but especially those people who have served their na-
tion with such distinction.
And so, we are trying to find more ways. We have right now in
our system, unused at HUD, more than 20,000 vouchers for vet-
erans. We have in this budget, the President’s budget, when we re-
authorize them, almost 100,000 vouchers. We are just trying to
make sure that we can find a way to get them to the veterans who
are homeless, and we are doing better, certainly.
But it takes a concerted effort, because the one thing about vet-
erans is that they are resilient. So, when they get into these com-
munities they become in charge of these communities. It becomes
a culture.
We are breaking down the barriers every day.
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. That is great, and I look forward to
working with your office more on figuring out how we can get those
unused vouchers out. If we already have them out there, let us
make sure our veterans are using them and they are getting into
their hands.

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As far as the emergency rental assistance dollars, I know that re-
ports are being produced and that has been a big topic of conversa-
tion. In those reports, will there be special—not special call outs,
but will we be reporting on the status of veteran homelessness in
there or will that be in separate reports?
Secretary FUDGE. It is really separate. They will come through
the VA, but I will make sure that we get you that information so
that you can have it.
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. Fantastic. Thank you.
And then another issue I know you care passionately about, and
that impacts northeast Ohio disproportionately compared to the
rest of the country, is the issue of lead paint in older housing.
Ohio has the third-most Housing Choice Voucher units in the
country which were built prior to 1978, only behind California and
New York. This can have serious impacts on the health and devel-
opment of children, as we know, who are exposed, and it is some-
thing I believe we need to address head on.
What more can we do on the preventative side to identify hous-
ing that has lead-based paint and make sure that northeast Ohio
families are kept safe?
Secretary FUDGE. It is a passion of mine, and it almost brings
me to tears to talk about it. In Cuyahoga County alone, 1,000 chil-
dren annually—annually—are poisoned to the extent that they can-
not function in the county I live in. Just about all of the children
in the public schools have elevated levels of lead. We must find a
way to do something with lead paint in public housing.
The resources have been requested in the President’s budget, and
I just need for people like you, Mr. Gonzalez, to help me fight for
it.
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. Well, I will continue to do just that, and
I look forward to working with you on the lead paint issue, vet-
erans’ homelessness, and the priorities of this committee.
And with that, I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentlewoman from Massachusetts,
Ms. Pressley, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters, for convening
this important hearing, and thank you to Secretary Fudge for being
here today. What a welcome change. I am overjoyed to see that we
have someone dedicated to exacting housing justice back at the
helm of the Department of Housing and Urban Development.
In May 2019, former Secretary Carson came before this com-
mittee and refused to answer any of my questions. I asked if he
thought safe housing was a social determinant of health. He re-
fused to answer. I asked if he thought substandard housing condi-
tions posed a threat, a risk to tenants’ health. He refused to an-
swer. I asked if my constituents deserved to live in housing filled
with life-threatening mold. He refused to answer. And then, to no
one’s surprise, he repeatedly tried to cut funding for long-overdue
repairs.
Unlike the prior Administration, Secretary Fudge, which simply
avoided the problem and slashed much-needed resources, President
Biden, as you alluded to in your opening statement, has proposed
a budget and a Build Back Better Plan which increases such efforts
and includes billions in funding to address the public housing re-

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pair backlog and millions to remove lead-based paint and other
health hazards.
Here in Congress, we are working urgently to make good on
those proposals, and I appreciate having good partners in this
fight. But there is also work that HUD can do on its own, without
Congress, to improve inspections and repairs to HUD-subsidized
units, work that your Administration undoubtedly has inherited
but now has an opportunity to address, once and for all.
With HUD Real Estate Assessment Center (REAC) inspections
cautiously resuming following the unprecedented pause during the
pandemic, we have a responsibility not just to return, again as you
alluded to in your opening statement, to an unjust status quo nor-
mal, but to build a new normal, one which ensures that everyone
has a safe, clean, and healthy place to call home.
Secretary Fudge, how long, on average, does it take for a prop-
erty that failed its REAC inspection to make the repairs and then
to receive a passing score? Is this data that is currently tracked?
Secretary FUDGE. I don’t know that we track the exact length be-
cause every situation is a little different in terms of the agreements
that they have. What they try to do is make an agreement with the
landlord, if it is Section 8 or some other. But let me just say this.
The reason that I demanded that we start inspections again, to the
concern of many people, is because I believe in the dignity of people
who live in these places. And so, we are trying to speed up the
process.
What I have asked them to do is give me a list of the worst prop-
erties in their areas, and when they are going to get in them and
look at them. I don’t want to hear about concerns they may have.
People are depending on us. And so, I have asked for the list of the
top 10 worst properties in every single community we serve, and
it is my expectation that within a 30-day period, they will look at
every single one.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you, Madam Secretary. Certainly, that
transparency is so critical. I am a believer that that which gets
measured, gets done, so that transparency is very important.
Would you be open to working with our office to perhaps explore
ways that this data could be collected and reported in order to en-
sure that HUD is meeting those oversight responsibilities?
Secretary FUDGE. I would be happy to, because we should have
already been collecting that data.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you. I certainly, throughout my district,
the Massachusetts 7th, continue to hear complaints from constitu-
ents that some housing providers take years to make those im-
provements, after having a failing REAC score. Some have shared,
in fact, that in past year they have been skeptical about whether
HUD followed up promptly after the provider claim to make re-
pairs. So again, I appreciate your due diligence on this front.
Just a couple more questions in that vein. When properties fail
inspections are there any strategies currently under HUD to bring
properties back into compliance quickly and efficiently? Is there a
prompt?
Secretary FUDGE. There are procedures in place. I just think that
for so long, we have been somewhat lax in following up. I think
also we go overboard because we know that people need the hous-

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ing. I think that prior Administrations have been more lenient
than I would be. If they are not going to let people live decently,
I don’t want them to have taxpayer dollars, period.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Agreed. Simply because someone could not afford
more doesn’t mean they don’t deserve better. So, I thank you for
your partnership and your commitment to ensure that the time be-
tween a failing REAC score and a completed repair is as short as
possible.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentlewoman’s time has expired. The
gentleman from Texas, Mr. Taylor, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Madam Secretary,
thank you for being here. I was gratified in your opening comments
that you said the United States of America is the greatest nation
on Earth. I just wanted to give you a chance to say why you
thought that. And yes, that is a slow pitch.
Secretary FUDGE. I think one of the things that makes us a great
nation is that we, as a people, have always been able to see our
problems and to repair our faults. We want to be the leaders of the
world. We are the people who lead the world in so many things.
Are we a perfect nation? No. Are we a great nation? Yes. We are
a great nation because our people are good people.
Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you. That was a great answer and I appre-
ciate that.
In the vein of trying to correct faults, I am sure you are aware,
under current law, 18 USC §1001 that it is a crime to knowingly
make material, false, fictitious, or fraudulent statements or rep-
resentations to the Federal Government. So in the vein of finding
fraud, what are your thoughts on using new technology or artificial
intelligence to find fraud, to stop, whether it is a real estate devel-
oper, like what Ms. Pressley was talking about earlier, that is not
coming through the way they should, or whether it is a pretend
tenant who is taking advantage of our programs? I know you have
finite resources. Have you thought about artificial intelligence as a
way to find fraud?
Secretary FUDGE. I really haven’t, because it has not been proven
to work all the time. And so, I would rather err on the side of a
person who needs help than not.
Mr. TAYLOR. What would you think about looking at different
programs—I will let you think about this—to use artificial intel-
ligence (AI) on a test basis, on a pilot basis, to try. Because as we
know, many financial institutions are using AI in underwriting, to
eliminate fraud and to be more effective in the way that they allo-
cate credit. And so if we think about that, reapplying it in this
case, trying to make sure that we are giving help to where help is
needed.
Secretary FUDGE. I am certainly willing to give it some thought.
It is not something that I have given any thought to prior to your
question. But we are always trying to make sure that people are
treated better, that the Federal Government operates better. I am
certainly willing to think about it.
Mr. TAYLOR. Sure. And obviously, I think we can both agree that
your resources are limited and your needs are great. So, I think we
can agree we want to focus resources where they are indeed need-
ed.

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And in that vein, what are the limits of helping people at HUD,
the financial limits? You can perhaps educate me on what those
limits are. And do you think they are perhaps too high?
Secretary FUDGE. Which limits? I am not sure.
Mr. TAYLOR. Income limits.
Secretary FUDGE. Oh. No, I don’t think so. I don’t think that the
income limits are too high at all. I think that as we look at where
this nation is evolving as it relates to housing, as it relates to what
a dollar can buy you, as it relates to what it costs to buy food or
to build housing, I don’t think we are too high at all.
Mr. TAYLOR. Is there a point where you would say that person
is making too much money—hey, you’re at 700 percent—
Secretary FUDGE. Yes. We have rules, of course. We have guide-
lines. We don’t just say any person making any amount of money
can be serviced by HUD. We obviously have guidelines. And most
of those are generally 80 percent of the average median income, or
less.
Mr. TAYLOR. Okay. So, 80 percent is the general standard that
HUD uses to determine when someone can no longer receive aid?
Secretary FUDGE. Correct.
Mr. TAYLOR. Okay.
Secretary FUDGE. Of the average median income, because every
community is different, so the dollar amount is different in every
community.
Mr. TAYLOR. Sure. And I just—
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman’s time has expired. No,
there are another few seconds.
Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I was really glad
to hear your comments on zoning. I think that zoning can make
housing extremely expensive, and in some places unlivable. And I
just want to say that I appreciated your comments. I identify with
those. I think zoning can be very hurtful to people in terms of mak-
ing housing very expensive, by putting requirements on housing
that just isn’t practical. And certainly, I happen to live in a place
in Plano, Texas, where we are pretty good about zoning, I think,
and so we have relatively affordable housing. It is causing a lot of
demand for people coming from other parts of the country, which
is driving up our housing prices.
I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman
from Michigan, Ms. Tlaib, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. TLAIB. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And thank you,
Madam Secretary. It is so incredibly good to see you, and thank
you for being accessible right from the beginning, and meeting with
me and Congresswoman Kaptur.
As many of the folks on your team know firsthand, the Great Re-
cession devastated many places like Wayne County, and many of
these communities have yet to fully recover. In my district, we
faced a tax foreclosure crisis that is still ongoing. So, I just want
to thank you so much for including the Restoring Communities Left
Behind Act that Congresswoman Kaptur and I are championing in
addressing tax foreclosure but also home improvement in neighbor-
hoods, true grassroots neighborhood revitalization. And again,
thank you for that partnership.

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As you probably know, since 2011, the Wayne County Treasurer
has foreclosed on more than 100,000 families for delinquent prop-
erty taxes, and that is nearly 1 in 4 properties in the entire county.
Madam Secretary, in Wayne County, we used to have one of the
highest Black homeownership rates in the country. People would
envy us, and wonder what we were doing. And it was something
that we always bragged about. And in 2000, it went from 53 per-
cent to now close to 40 percent in Black homeownership.
So again, I applaud you for including tax foreclosure relief in the
implementation of the Homeowner Assistance Fund, and I can’t
thank you enough for including the Restoring Communities Left
Behind Act.
I also know, in the City of Detroit specifically, that more than 92
percent of our homes were overtaxed. And if I may, Madam Chair-
woman, I would like to insert into the record an article from The
Detroit News entitled, ‘‘Detroit homeowners overtaxed $600 mil-
lion.’’ I think it is important to know that is nearly 96,000 homes
that were taxed twice as much as they should have been, and I
think that continues to contribute so much to some of the tax fore-
closure issues that we continue to see.
Chairwoman WATERS. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Ms. TLAIB. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I know that we
don’t want you to take on this role about telling localities what to
do. However, to advise or at least make a statement that this is
really something that could be violating the Fair Housing Act.
Is there anything that HUD can do to end this? Can HUD con-
sider withholding CDBG funds to localities that over-assess prop-
erty tax at such a high rate, in violation of the Fair Housing Act?
Secretary FUDGE. I think there are a couple of things that can
be done. First, we follow the law, so if there is a Fair Housing vio-
lation, we want to know about it, we will investigate it, and we will
do whatever is necessary to make sure we get it correct. So, the
first thing I would hope that you would do is to contact our office,
or just tell me, and I will make sure that our Fair Housing people
take a look at it. And there are conversations we can have about
resources coming to communities.
Ms. TLAIB. Yes, I will be more than willing to make sure—there
was a study by the University of Chicago and many others which
shows that the overassessment continues.
Again, one of the things that I know the Department can take
steps, and I enjoyed the fact that you say, ‘‘follow the law,’’ because
one of the things is to codify, really identify which localities are
over-assessing homeowners right now and how that is contributing
to the tax foreclosure. Have there been any discussions, in the pre-
vious Administration or now, about some sort of database or re-
cording of over-assessment around the country, that you might
know of?
Secretary FUDGE. Not that I am aware of, but I will check.
Ms. TLAIB. Okay. Wayne County property taxes account for 60
percent of the County’s general fund revenue, and you know what
means. That is why I am hoping to have your partnership and
leadership, Madam Secretary, at the Federal level, at least to call
out when it is wrong to do it, to at least show some sort of align-
ment with property owners, and many of them, again, are Black

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property owners, that this crisis needs to be addressed and that
HUD will definitely be able to, or in some way show that this is
wrong and that we need to do something about it and push back
against many of those efforts.
Secretary FUDGE. I just want to say, just rest assured, I was the
mayor of a small city that was predominantly Black, and I am a
lawyer by training. So we are going to follow the law, and we are
going to do what we can to make sure it is done properly.
Ms. TLAIB. I appreciate that, Madam Secretary. I am also ex-
tremely grateful, Madam Secretary, for the conversation earlier
this year on our bill, and I am so incredibly happy to see Chair-
woman Water’s $10 billion towards the program, the Housing is In-
frastructure Act. Does the Administration support this funding? I
know you talked a little bit about it, but can you talk about next
steps and maybe, again, you have this committee, many of us are
very much in support of that, of any actions by the Administration
in pushing that forward?
Secretary FUDGE. At this point—
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentlewoman’s time has expired. The
gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Rose, is now recognized for 5 min-
utes.
Mr. ROSE. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters and Ranking Mem-
ber McHenry, for convening the hearing today, and welcome, Sec-
retary Fudge, back to the House and to your first time before our
committee. I am a recovering lawyer as well, so I feel like I have
some appreciation for your plight.
I think this hearing is long overdue. HUD was tasked with a sig-
nificant role in response to COVID-19, but in my opinion, unfortu-
nately, it has failed to live up to the responsibilities. Specifically,
I have been extremely disappointed with the slow rollout of the
rental assistance programs as well as HUD’s development and im-
plementation of confusing guidelines. Congress appropriated $46
billion in rental assistance, and as we have heard repeatedly today,
almost 7 months after that initial funding, data shows that less
than 4 percent of that money has actually been used to help eligi-
ble households. This is putting millions of families at risk of evic-
tion and severely hurting landlords across the country.
Under the previous Administration, Treasury issued binding
Emergency Rental Assistance (ERA) program rules and FAQ guid-
ance to accompany those funds on January 19th. The Biden Admin-
istration then opted to rescind that guidance and publish new ERA
rules in February. It then revised rules again in March, then added
new rules in May, and then revised and added new rules again in
June.
Secretary Fudge, how has this constant revision of rules and
added red tape slowed ERA funds from helping eligible families
and households who are in need?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, it really hasn’t slowed it, because you re-
member that the money actually came out of Treasury, and it went
immediately. The rulemaking, I agree, has probably been some-
what cumbersome. I don’t disagree with you on that. But it has not
been the problem with getting the resources out.
Mr. ROSE. I am concerned that housing policies coming out of the
White House and HUD are simply throwing money at old, outdated

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programs that will not build or incentivize the creation of new
housing units. Several modern, innovative programs do exist, and
they are working well in States like mine. My friend from Arkan-
sas, Mr. Hill, emphasized how the RAD program is a proven solu-
tion that allows residents greater choices and flexibility.
Secretary Fudge, could you expand on some of the benefits that
the RAD program has created for public housing authorities and
residents of public housing?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, obviously, the advantage is that they le-
verage the resources that the public housing authorities already
have, and it gives them the opportunity to do more things, espe-
cially as it relates to capital improvements, than they could have
just through the resources that this Congress, in its wisdom, gives
them.
Mr. ROSE. Since the Biden Administration’s prior proposals in-
cluded putting tens of billions into retrofitting public housing, is
that a step away from successful programs like the Rental Assist-
ance Demonstration (RAD) program?
Secretary FUDGE. Oh, absolutely not.
Mr. ROSE. What do you think the Administration should do to
seize the opportunity that RAD creates?
Secretary FUDGE. RAD is expanding all over the country. No one
is trying to do away with RAD. I don’t know if that is what you
are thinking. But what we want to do is to take care of the people
in public housing. We want to be sure that they live in safe, decent
housing. We want to be sure that we can fix leaking roofs and take
mold off of walls. We want to be sure that we don’t have rodent
infestation. We want to be sure that they are living in a decent en-
vironment. And if RAD helps to do that, that is great. We are all
for whatever it is that we can do within, obviously, our responsibil-
ities and our authority to make sure that people live in decent
housing.
Mr. ROSE. Thank you. In Tennessee’s 6th Congressional District,
which I represent, 12.9 percent of total occupied housing units are
manufactured homes. Manufactured housing is the most affordable
homeownership option available nationwide for minorities, under-
served, and low-income borrowers. According to U.S. Census data,
90 percent of new homes under $75,000 are manufactured housing,
yet increasingly, we are seeing scenarios where localities use zon-
ing ordinances to exclude affordable manufactured homes in their
communities. HUD has the authority to prevent localities from ex-
cluding manufactured homes, yet they have not utilized it.
How can HUD encourage communities to expand their affordable
housing options like manufactured homes?
Secretary FUDGE. I would disagree that HUD has the ability to
change local zoning. We do not.
Mr. ROSE. So, you don’t see a way that HUD can help to encour-
age communities?
Secretary FUDGE. We are working on it, but we do not have the
authority to change local zoning.
Mr. ROSE. Okay. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I yield
back the balance of my time.

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Mr. GREEN. [presiding]. The gentleman’s time has expired. The
Chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from Georgia, Ms. Wil-
liams, for 5 minutes.
Ms. WILLIAMS OF GEORGIA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
thank you, Secretary Fudge, for joining us today. Today’s hearing
builds an important foundation for our shared work to ensure that
low-income families and those most marginalized are well-served
by HUD’s programs.
As we move forward with this work, we need to focus on break-
ing down barriers that folks face getting a decent home, but we
also need to be thinking about how we can maximize opportunity
and minimize disparity through the housing system. I have legisla-
tion, the Voters on the Move Registration Act, included as a part
of this hearing today, and it helps ensure that as we get individ-
uals housed, we also break down any barriers they face in getting
registered to vote at their new residence.
My bill would task the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
(CFPB) to work with the Election Assistance Commission to issue
information on how individuals who are moving can register to vote
and what their voting rights are under the law. This will ensure
that public housing agencies and owners of federally-assisted hous-
ing can provide this information and make moving a little bit easi-
er for their tenant. This bill is based on a simple idea: It shouldn’t
matter how often you have to move or what ZIP code you are mov-
ing to. People should have the tools they need to exercise their
voice in our representative government.
Secretary Fudge, how can empowering tenants in HUD’s pro-
grams with more information as they move, whether it is about
their rights or services that they can access, help to reduce socio-
economic disparities for the populations that those programs serve?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, I would say that people underestimate
people who live in public housing. Most people who live in public
housing do want to know what their rights are. They do want to
understand how they can become more involved in their commu-
nities. That is why we have more and more tenants’ associations.
That is why they are asking for more information. They want com-
puters in their community rooms. They want to be able to be a con-
tributing member of society like everybody else. And I think that
it is great.
Ms. WILLIAMS OF GEORGIA. Thank you so much, and I have no
additional questions. I am looking forward to working with you on
implementing this program and getting everyone the access and in-
formation that they need to continue to voice their concerns and be
a part of our representative government.
And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. GREEN. The gentlelady yields back. The gentleman from Mis-
souri, Mr. Luetkemeyer, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Congressional
Democrats are falling woefully short on their responsibility to con-
duct oversight of the Biden Administration, and the American peo-
ple need to know about it. Currently at the CFPB, we have an act-
ing Director who has not been confirmed by the Senate, making
major policy decisions. He has taken nine enforcement actions, re-
scinded Administration guidelines on CFPB’s policy for combatting

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abusive industry practices that delay the implementation of the
debt collection rule, and is moving full speed ahead on a rule to im-
plement Section 1071 of Dodd-Frank.
Furthermore, there have been reports that the CFPB has used
incentive packages and started investigations into senior career
staff in order to remove them from the Bureau due to their political
affiliation. This could potentially violate the Civil Service Reform
Act.
And while the acting Director has been busy leaving his mark at
the CFPB, the chairwoman can’t find the time to have him testify
before this committee. In fact, at the end of this month it will have
been a full year since someone from the CFPB testified in this com-
mittee. Conversely, when Director Kraninger was the head of the
CFPB, and Chairwoman Waters took over the chairmanship of this
committee, it took only 2 months for her to call up the former Di-
rector.
As far as this committee hearing goes today, the single-most
pressing housing issue that this country is facing is the eviction
moratorium, which is set to expire July 31st. While multiple courts
have ruled the eviction moratorium is unconstitutional, Congress
responded to the crisis facing renters by passing $46 billion in
renter assistance.
The idea is simple. If Congress provides you the money, you pay
your rent, you pay your back rent, and you will not be evicted.
However, to date, Treasury has reported only $1.5 billion of the $46
billion given to the program has actually reached renters.
Why the ineptitude by Treasury? Could it be that the Treasury
Secretary has completely abandoned any sense of ownership or
oversight of these programs or refuses to appear in front of Con-
gress to discuss them? Secretary Yellen is statutorily required to
appear in front of this Financial Services Committee on a quarterly
basis to discuss the pandemic and the economic recovery. It was
agreed to, on a bipartisan basis, in the CARES Act, and was even
maintained in the partisan Democratic bill passed this March.
But where was the Secretary last quarter? The answer is, abso-
lutely nowhere near this committee. Unless she plans on appearing
in September, it will mark two consecutive quarters where she has
broken the law by failing to appear before us.
I also serve as ranking member of the House Small Business
Committee. Secretary Yellen was statutorily required to testify in
front of the Small Business Committee before April 26th of this
year on the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP), but to no one’s
surprise, she has yet to appear there. I am aware of her schedule,
and she has attended at least two political events and made an
overseas trip. Now, I am not complaining about her doing those
things, but I am making the point that if she has time for that,
she has time to do her statutory duty, which is to appear here.
What’s worse is that I think our colleagues across the aisle don’t
seem to want to hold Biden appointees accountable, and I think it
is this woeful neglect of the law that is at the expense of the Amer-
ican people’s view of it that is going to take its toll.
With that, let me begin my questioning. Secretary Fudge, wel-
come, by the way. One of the largest drivers of housing afford-
ability is the lack of affordable housing. Specifically, during the

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pandemic, we have seen the impact of low housing stock on home
prices. According to the National Association of Home Builders,
and the National Multifamily Housing Council, regulations im-
posed by all levels of government account for an average of 32 per-
cent of multifamily development costs. In fact, on a quarterly basis,
that number is at least 42 percent.
What is HUD doing to eliminate or minimize these kinds of costs
to multifamily developments?
Secretary FUDGE. I have had an opportunity to meet with the
Home Buyers, and certainly, HUD is not responsible for the cost
of lumber or plastic or anything else. But what we are trying to do
is to assist Commerce and other agencies who look at the supply
chain.
My colleagues, for many, many years when I was here, talked
about the free market. It is a free market. That is what we are
dealing with. And so, there is nothing that HUD specifically can do
to bring down the cost of housing—
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Is there something—
Secretary FUDGE. —other than through the programs you all
have approved to get funding, whether it be the Housing Trust
Fund, whether it be CDBG, whether it be HOME—
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. My time is running short here. I apolo-
gize. My question is, 32 percent of the multifamily housing costs
are development costs, and 42 percent in other cases. So, the num-
ber is huge on rules and regulations. Is there something that you
think you can do to help minimize that?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, that is what I was saying. We are trying
to provide gap financing. Let’s just say that a cost of a home now
is $32,000 more than it was a year ago. Through things like
HOME, things that Congress has approved—HOME, through low-
income housing tax credits, through all of the other things, the
tools you have given us, we can at least bring down the cost for
the end user. We can’t bring down the cost of the unit itself.
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Well, that is problem. The building costs—
Mr. GREEN. The gentleman’s time has expired.
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. —on the front end are where the costs are,
and we have to minimize that somehow—
Mr. GREEN. The Chair—
Mr. LUETKEMEYER. —and we should—
Mr. GREEN. —will now recognize the gentleman from Massachu-
setts, Mr. Auchincloss, for 5 minutes.
Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome,
Madam Secretary. I did not have the pleasure of working with you
in Congress, but I am looking forward to working with you in your
new position, especially as housing is probably the single-biggest
issue in the district I represent, the Massachusetts 4th. I represent
a socioeconomically-diverse district where, in the inner suburbs of
Boston, housing prices can be well above $1 million, and in the
southeastern part of Massachusetts, less than a fifth of that. But
north and south of the district, housing is always at the top of peo-
ple’s minds, and we have seen double-digit increases in the price
of housing over the last several years.
And I am pleased that Massachusetts has started to step up in
this area. Late last year, the State legislature passed the Housing

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Choice Bill, which reduced from a supermajority to a simple major-
ity the vote count required for zoning boards to approve special
permits, to make it easier to build housing at the local level. It is
not exhaustive but it is a good first step to alleviate the pressure
in the housing market, especially in the parts of the district where
demand greatly outpaces supply and zoning has become really ex-
clusionary.
Understanding that HUD cannot directly change zoning laws,
are there other steps that you would like to see Massachusetts and
the other States of the union, in your experience working on hous-
ing for so long, do to encourage more housing through statutory
changes?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes. We know we can’t change it but we are
having discussions. We are trying to find ways to even just bring
to their attention some of the ordinances that they may have that
are detrimental. As a mayor, I didn’t go back and look at things
we did 30, 40, or 50 years ago. But when someone brings to my at-
tention, ‘‘You know what? If you just change this one small thing,
that may bring down the cost of housing.’’ So, we are having those
discussions.
But we are also trying to say to them that we have, through Con-
gress, increased funding in our Housing Trust Fund, which is de-
signed to assist with building or providing housing for low- and
moderate-income people. Use those resources to help you make that
housing affordable.
We have CDBG and HOME money—HOME money is very, very
flexible—that can provide some resources to assist the end user.
Let’s say that it costs them—and I am using a small number, obvi-
ously—$50,000 to build a home, but the average person, the low-
or moderate-income person, can only afford $40,000. We can make
up that $10,000 difference.
So, there are tools that Congress has given us that we can use.
It is just that we need the local communities to help us do it.
Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. And Madam Secretary, can we work with your
office on that, as we explore housing issues?
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely.
Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Thank you. Now in the southern part of my
district, the City of Fall River is registering abandoned housing
and working with the State to bring that housing up to code. And
there are many communities that are working hard to return these
kinds of abandoned properties to clean and habitable places to live.
Are there programs that HUD is pursuing that make it easier for
cities like Fall River to upgrade abandoned properties and turn
them into habitable places to live?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes, we have all kinds of low-income housing,
if that is what you are asking me. And if you just call our office,
we can give you all the information that you need, because a lot
of times, small communities don’t even know what is available. We
would be happy to do it.
Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. I appreciate that, Madam Secretary. And then
the final question I want to build off of is what the gentlewoman
from Michigan was asking before her time expired, that the chair-
woman has proposed a transformative series of bills, including
Housing as Infrastructure, and I want to give you the opportunity,

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Madam Secretary, to just tell this committee what you think this
funding and this policy put forward by the chairwoman could do for
housing stability and housing access in the country?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, if you would allow me, I won’t discuss
the various parts of the legislation, but I will say to you that hous-
ing is probably the number-one crisis in this country today. And
whatever it takes for us to start to address it, I don’t know if it
is that piece or a lot of pieces of legislation. But if we do not ad-
dress this crisis now, it is just going to continue to get worse.
Housing was a crisis before COVID; all COVID did was to lay
bare how big of a crisis it was. And if we do not take this oppor-
tunity to invest in housing, as we have not done in generations, we
will never be able to catch up.
Mr. AUCHINCLOSS. Thank you, Madam Secretary, and I yield
back the balance of my time, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. GREEN. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman from
South Carolina, Mr. Timmons, is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. TIMMONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Secretary Fudge, con-
gratulations on your new position, and thank you for being with us
today.
I want to begin by associating myself with my colleague, Rep-
resentative Beatty, when she said that you are not accountable for
the actions of Secretary Yellen. She is right. You are not directly
responsible for the administration of the emergency rental assist-
ance dollars. But I think we can all agree that this is a critically
important issue, and since Secretary Yellen is not here and will not
appear before this committee before the eviction moratorium ex-
pires at the end of the month, it is our responsibility to do what-
ever we can to push this issue to the forefront.
I also think that we can all agree that there remains a great
need to get these dollars not just in the hands of State and local
governments. but actually to the intended targets: renters and
their landlords. We can all surely agree that is the goal.
Mr. Hill said earlier that the legislation was drafted in a way
that does really put the onus on State and local governments to
run this program, and we can see that they are just not doing a
very good job. You also said earlier that our job is to provide over-
sight, and we are trying to do that but it is just not working. The
dollars are not getting where they need to go. And obviously, we
know time is running out.
You also said earlier that you don’t even know how much money
has actually made its way to the tenants who are in need, and you
have only been on the job for a few months so that is not your
fault. But we need to find out, and we need to get this done quick-
ly.
So my question is, can you help us find out just how much of the
$40-plus billion we appropriated has reached its intended target,
and can you please help get these resources where they need to go?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes, I will do everything I can to make sure
you have it. I will get in touch with Treasury to see if I can get
those numbers for you, as well as yes, we are continuing to talk.
We do have oversight but we just can’t demand.

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Mr. TIMMONS. I have only been here for 21⁄2 years. You have
spent more time in this body than I have. So, what else can we do
that we are not doing?
Secretary FUDGE. One of the things that I did when I was a
Member of Congress was, I would go and talk to my State and local
people, and tell them what needed to be done. I was proactive in
making sure that they knew what was happening, so I didn’t sit
back. I really went and took the initiative to say to them, ‘‘If you
don’t do this, you are failing your own constituents.’’ As Members
of Congress, you all have constituents. I have them too. They are
people who live in housing that we support. And so, we do the best
we can to make sure we can be helpful.
Mr. TIMMONS. Maybe if there are any resources that you could
provide to give us best practices on how to actually achieve these
objectives, I would really appreciate that. And I just want to say
thank you for your help in achieving this very important objective.
I want to switch gears to vaccine hesitancy. During your ex-
change with Mr. Cleaver, you ran through the Biden Administra-
tion’s efforts to vaccinate Americans living in public housing
against COVID-19, and I appreciate those efforts. I have been tell-
ing everyone in my district who wants to get a vaccine, that they
need to get one, because we have to get back to work and we have
to get on with our lives.
So, I want to go to some of the words that we heard during the
election. I guess Vice President Harris, then candidate Harris, said,
‘‘If past is prologue, the scientists and health officials will not be
able to weigh in on the efficacy of the vaccine. They will be muz-
zled. They will be suppressed. They will be sidelined.’’
So when we look at the vaccine hesitancy amongst demographic
groups, we see that rates, particularly in African-American commu-
nities, are not where they should be. My question is, what can we
do to help fix this problem? What can we do to help repair the trust
in government?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, there are a couple of things. One, obvi-
ously, is there is a justified distrust by African Americans of the
government, because even today, more Black women die in child-
birth than any other color. More doctors ignore problems that
Black people have than ever before. And so, there is a justified dis-
trust, especially in medicine.
But I think that what we have to do is go to the people, which
is something that we historically do not do. It does not bother me
to go into a public housing facility and talk with them about get-
ting the shot. Because I think that when people they trust talk
with them, whether it be their pastor, the college coach, the high
school coach, people like me, people like you, I think that they have
a different outcome. And so, I am hopeful that all of us will realize
how important it is to have one-on-one conversations. I think that
can turn the tide.
Mr. TIMMONS. Well, I hope that everyone who wants a vaccine
can get one as quickly as possible, because we do need to get back
to work. That is the only thing that is going to help get our econ-
omy back on track. So thank you, Madam Secretary, and Mr.
Chairman, I yield back.

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Mr. GREEN. The gentleman yields back. The gentlewoman from
North Carolina, Ms. Adams, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. ADAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ‘‘Madam Secretary,’’ what
a wonderful sound that is. First of all, I want to say what a pleas-
ure it is to have you here today. I was honored to serve with you
in this body, and I am grateful for your excellent leadership at
HUD, and I thank you for showing up in my district when we
asked you to speak.
Secretary Fudge, you touched on Section 8 vouchers and source-
of-income discrimination. Currently, in my district, there is an 11-
year waitlist to receive a voucher, and what’s worse, 21 percent of
the families in my district who received the voucher were unable
to find housing by the time the voucher expired, which is 180 days.
Can you describe why it is so important that we move swiftly to
end source-of-income discrimination nationwide, and what is the
possibility of expanding that 180 days and also issuing more vouch-
ers?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, three things, and thank you so much. It
is nice to see you as well.
Source-of-income discrimination has been around a long time,
even just Social Security. We have people who—and it has always
been a little crazy to me because they know they are going to get
a check every month, so I have never been able to understand why
there were these issues.
But what we are finding more and more is that because of the
lack of supply, people are not accepting these vouchers, because
they know they can make so much more. So, we need to expand
the base of rental properties. You can have thousands and thou-
sands of vouchers, but if there is no place for them to use them,
because people are upset because they get Social Security or they
get some kind of disability check or some other kind, we do need
to find a way to legally prevent source-of-income discrimination.
We have been talking about it within Fair Housing. We are trying
to find a way to do it. And as we get further in our discussions,
I would be happy to talk to you about where we are.
Ms. ADAMS. Okay. Great. Your 2020 budget calls for $100 million
to support public housing conversions to a Section 8 platform under
the rental assistance. So, can you explain a little bit how HUD,
under your stewardship, will administer the rental assistance in
such a way that long-term affordability and public oversight is
maintained and the residents are not at risk of losing stable hous-
ing that they can afford?
Secretary FUDGE. There is no circumstance by which RAD or any
other program would be totally privately-controlled. Generally, it is
a 40/60 split, for the most part. There is a RAD project right here
in Maryland that I would love for you to take a look at, at some
point, and we will get you the information. But trust me very, very
clearly on this, I will never, ever allow the privatization of public
housing.
Ms. ADAMS. Thank you, ma’am. I would also like to take this
time to say that my bill, the Promoting Resident Opportunities and
Self-Sufficiency Act would help ensure that residents who live in
housing units that are converted by RAD would still receive critical
congregant housing services.

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As you know, Black borrowers rely on and obtain FHA and VA
mortgage loans at much higher rates than conventional loans guar-
anteed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In 2019, about 37 percent
of Black home buyers bought homes using the FHA mortgage in-
surance program. Despite the fact that FHA is overwhelmingly
serving Black borrowers, the overall homeownership gap is still
wider than it was in 1968. So, do you think that the conventional
market, including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, could do a better
job of serving more borrowers of color, to help narrow that overall
gap, and do you have any ideas on how that might be done and
what role HUD could play?
Secretary FUDGE. We absolutely can do a better job, and we will
do a better job. We are right now looking at how FHA determines
creditworthiness. We are looking at how FHA determines which
mortgages they want to do. We are looking at small-dollar loans.
We are taking every single thing out of the box, because HUD has
been as much a problem through FHA and GSEs as anyone.
Ms. ADAMS. Great. Thank you, Madam Secretary, for being here,
and Chairwoman Waters, I want to thank you for inviting the Sec-
retary to come and address this body. And certainly, if there is any-
thing my office can do to assist you, please reach out to us.
Madam Chairwoman, I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much. The gentleman
from North Carolina, Mr. Budd, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. BUDD. I thank the Chair, and Madam Secretary, congratula-
tions on your new role.
Secretary Fudge, this is a bit of a follow-up from a prior col-
league. It seems like funds that are spent on infrastructure devel-
opment would go a lot further if they were paired with regulatory
reforms that reduced the cost of construction. Fair enough.
Secretary FUDGE. Fair enough.
Mr. BUDD. According to the National Association of Home Build-
ers, and also the National Multifamily Housing Council, up to 30
percent of the cost of new construction, so the cost of development
of housing, is due to regulations at the Federal, State, and local
levels.
When you weighed in earlier, it is my understanding that you
said that HUD can’t really help with State and local regulations.
Secretary FUDGE. Zoning.
Mr. BUDD. HUD cannot, right?
Secretary FUDGE. I said, zoning.
Mr. BUDD. It was zoning. Okay. Just a small part of the regula-
tions.
Here is what is going on in my district, and I imagine in many
of our districts. People are having a hard time affording housing.
There is no ability to help. You are sending money for bike paths,
and pools, and tree planting. Now in some world, that is actually
a fine idea, but not now.
I am concerned that you have a tremendous ability to make
housing more affordable. You could make funding conditional on
lower regulations at a State and local level. But is there anything
you can do to reduce a single regulatory hurdle that would lower
the cost of housing for regular Americans?

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Secretary FUDGE. Let me just first say that I don’t send out
money to pools. Communities do that. Secondly, I would say to you
that, as I have said earlier, we do not control States. We control
what we control based on the law. We are always going to follow
the law. But tomorrow, somebody will be asking me why we are
trying to control what their States do. What we do is what you
have authorized us to do. That is what—
Mr. BUDD. Thank you. I am going to reclaim my time. And what
I see is that we have a tremendous influence here in how the Fed-
eral Government works with States. Of course, we want to preserve
the rights of States and the strength of States and regulations, but
we want to make sure to properly steer people to properly use Fed-
eral taxpayer dollars. I think we all could agree with that. Thank
you. And we certainly want to lower the cost of housing for aver-
age, every day, sometimes they feel like they are the forgotten
Americans out there.
Well, I want to continue on. It is no secret that America has a
housing supply shortage. President Biden’s plan is to build, pre-
serve, and retrofit more than 2 million homes and commercial
buildings to address the affordable housing crisis. However, that
initiative attempts to merge the building of new units with existing
units, sort of an upfit. Preserving or retrofitting a unit might be
good for its current occupant, but that is no substitute for creating
a new housing unit that meets an unmet need.
And this is an easy math question here: How many new units
of housing are created when an existing home or housing is retro-
fitted?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, obviously none, but that is not what the
President did. The President asked for 2 million new units and ret-
rofitting 500,000.
Mr. BUDD. So, we are spending a lot of that $213 billion on retro-
fitting, thus not creating new units, or creating less than otherwise
could have been. So of the $213 billion the Biden infrastructure
proposal wants to spend, what sort of percentage should be devoted
exclusively to the building of new housing units? You can give that
to me in a dollar sign or a percentage, either one, of the $213 bil-
lion.
Secretary FUDGE. It is not broken down at all. It is just a top-
line number, which I think all of us know.
Mr. BUDD. So do you think that some should be devoted exclu-
sively to the building of new housing units?
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely.
Mr. BUDD. Thank you. Slightly different question before I yield
back, and just getting details on this and still awaiting more infor-
mation, I understand that three HUD nominees are on the record
supporting Defund the Police efforts. Is that something that you
would support nominees to support, defunding the police?
Secretary FUDGE. First off, I don’t know if that is accurate, be-
cause I don’t know.
Mr. BUDD. And we are still getting details on that. But if that
were to come up and they were on the record for supporting Defund
the Police, is that something that you would support?
Secretary FUDGE. That is not my decision, sir. That is the deci-
sion of the U.S. Senate.

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Mr. BUDD. So you would not weigh in on that, if that was some-
thing they were supporting?
Secretary FUDGE. I would not weigh in.
Mr. BUDD. Okay. Thank you. I yield back to the Chair.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentlewoman from New York, Ms.
Ocasio-Cortez, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. Thank you so much, Chairwoman Waters,
for convening this important hearing, and thank you, Secretary
Fudge, for coming before us today and sharing your expertise and
knowledge.
And I think hearing a lot of these question lines from the other
side of the aisle, it kind of feels like Groundhog Day, right? The
same two or three things that we are hearing over and over and
over again. And I think that there is some confusion, or perhaps
some of this information that you are trying to communicate isn’t
quite getting across.
So, I want us to talk about the Emergency Rental Assistance
Program. For folks who are just tuning in at home, this was devel-
oped in response to the crisis that we had due to the pandemic. We
had massive spikes in unemployment due to shutdowns, and people
were at risk of losing their homes and being evicted. So, Congress
authorized a total, in two sums, of about $46 billion in emergency
rental assistance to get to tenants and landlords to help cover the
rent during this time.
The issue that we have is that the CDC’s eviction moratorium is
set to expire in 11 days, and out of this $46 billion that we have
authorized, and that has been provided in emergency rental assist-
ance, very little of that has gone out. Now again, as you have com-
municated throughout this hearing, this is not under the domain
and not due to any bottlenecks at HUD, but you would say that
this is due to State and local municipal governments, correct?
Secretary FUDGE. Correct.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. The checks have gone out. That money has
been disbursed. And the reason for the holdup is because gov-
ernors, mayors, municipal governments are not getting it out to
people, correct?
Secretary FUDGE. Correct.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. So all of this hubbub about wanting to talk
to the Treasury Secretary, and you being right before us with your
expertise, I think they are trying to address the wrong folks in this
bottleneck. Would that be a fair assessment to make?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. Thank you. And so, respectfully, if my col-
leagues are concerned about these bottlenecks, they need to get
their governors on the phone, they need to get their mayors on the
phone. Would you say that is correct?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. And I would beseech my colleagues, if they
represent a State where their governor is of their same party, to
be unafraid to hold your own party governors accountable. I say
this as a person who does that within my own party.
Now, what I will say, that I would like to engage with you on
today, is that I am concerned about some of the communications
happening with the Biden Administration regarding the eviction

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moratorium date. The eviction moratorium is set to expire within
11 days, and whether it is in Federal control or not, the money to
help people has not gone out.
So my question to you is, in your view, should this eviction mora-
torium be extended?
Secretary FUDGE. If I may say this, Congresswoman, I think you
are going to see significantly higher numbers of usage by the end
of this month. I can’t speak for the CDC, and the only reason it
is being extended is because the CDC has said that there is a
health crisis. So, I don’t know that really it is something that can
be done, if, in fact, we believe that we are coming out of COVID.
So I would just suggest that, as you said, all hands on deck.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. Okay. Thank you. And while I know that
this isn’t quite under HUD, we do know, and this has come up dur-
ing the course of this hearing, that housing is a profound social in-
dicator of health, correct?
Secretary FUDGE. Yes.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. And would it be fair to say that if, for what-
ever reasons due to the emergency rental assistance not coming out
in time, if this resulted in a large population of people being evict-
ed due to this mismatch in timing and fund distribution, could that
precipitate almost a secondary public health crisis and concern due
to displacement and homelessness?
Secretary FUDGE. Certainly, it could.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. And do you believe that the CDC should po-
tentially consider housing status as an indicator in health and pub-
lic health?
Secretary FUDGE. No, I think that every single person in America
should be trying to figure out how we keep people in their homes.
Those are discussions that I know will come up with the CDC, but
I am certainly hopeful that we will not have to face that.
Ms. OCASIO-CORTEZ. Of course. Thank you very much.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you. The gentleman from Wis-
consin, Mr. Steil, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. STEIL. Secretary Fudge, thank you for being here with us
today. I think it is important to note that one thing was left off in
our most recent conversation, and that is that the CDC’s morato-
rium on evictions has been found to be unconstitutional by two
courts. So we are heading down the railroad tracks here, and the
bridge is out. And my concern is that by saying that HUD has done
its job but the States have been slow, that is not a lot of solace to
an individual in Racine, Wisconsin, in my district, or in a city
across the United States who finds themselves out of their home
because the funds haven’t made it all the way from HUD through
the States to that individual or to their respective landlord.
And one of my real concerns is that the Biden Administration
has rewritten the guidance and the rules on this 4 times. They re-
wrote it in February, they rewrote it in March, they rewrote it in
May, and they rewrote it in June. And so, I have real concerns that
we are heading down this railroad track with the bridge out, the
moratorium has been ruled unconstitutional. And although HUD
has, as you, I think, correctly noted, made those funds available to
the States, the States haven’t acted. I would note that the rewrit-

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ing of that guidance by the Biden Administration gives me great
pause for concern.
But let me shift gears and dive into an issue that I have great
concern with, which is the impact of rising costs on American fami-
lies. It is hard to ignore the fact that prices have continued to in-
crease, and they are increasing at a rate faster than we have really
seen since 2008. I think we know why this is happening. Wash-
ington has dramatically increased spending, and the Fed continues
to push an aggressive monetary policy. And as a result of these
misguided government schemes, like paying people not to work,
supply chain and labor force problems are taking even longer to re-
solve.
And as I discussed with Fed Chairman Powell last week, this
might lead to a reset of our inflation expectations, creating a self-
fulfilling prophecy driving higher inflation, which means more un-
certainty and higher prices for American families. And these price
increases flow directly into housing costs. Rising material costs
have added $36,000 to the price of a new home. Nationwide, home
prices are up 14 percent in the past year. And it is not just econo-
mists they are talking about. The American public is feeling it. I
talk to people on a regular basis who stop me in the grocery store
and talk to me about the impact of the rising cost of groceries, but
also the rising costs for them to live their lives.
And so, as I read your testimony today, the word, ‘‘climate,’’ ap-
pears in your testimony 5 times, ‘‘equity’’ appears twice, but I find
it a little bit interesting as I read that you failed to mention the
word, ‘‘inflation’’ once out of 1,300 words in your written opening
statement. And I worry about this Administration’s misplaced pri-
orities, which I think are out of step with American families.
To be direct for a question here, have you or HUD done analysis
on the impact of rising costs on working-class Americans and their
ability to purchase a home?
Secretary FUDGE. Let me first say that every reputable economist
in this country has said that inflation will be temporary only, and
that it is not something to be concerned about. And secondly, let
me say that two courts have found the CDC’s moratorium unconsti-
tutional, but two have found it constitutional, and the Supreme
Court of the United States let it proceed.
Now as it relates to the cost, yes, we are looking at the cost. That
is what we do.
Mr. STEIL. What is that showing? As costs have gone up—for a
new home, it has increased $36,000. What have your studies said
about that?
Secretary FUDGE. The Home Builders told me it was going up be-
cause of the cost of goods and services. I believe them.
Mr. STEIL. Let me then shift gears into how the policies of de-
mand-side subsidies, I think, will also increase prices. I think one
is the Biden Administration’s policies and the aggressive spending
we are seeing in D.C. is increasing the prices. It is showing up—
the economists that you are speaking with—it is making homes
more difficult and more out of reach for the average American.
But also, as we look at the policies being put in place, increasing
demand-side prices—you mentioned in your testimony your support
for more vouchers and other subsidies to challenge renters. I know

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Chairwoman Waters has also proposed expanding the voucher pro-
gram to make it an entitlement. And I am concerned that broad
demand side subsidies fail to address one of the underlying prob-
lems in our housing market, which could be the fact of a lack of
supply. And it seems like we should be working to encourage devel-
opers to build more homes.
What is, in your opinion, is getting in the way of increasing the
supply?
Secretary FUDGE. There are so many it would take me an hour
to have that conversation with you. And I think, sir, just to be hon-
est, that your assessment is really very unfair. You know that
there are many issues as to the cost of housing as well.
Chairwoman WATERS. The gentleman’s time has expired. The
gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Casten, is now recognized for 5 min-
utes.
Mr. CASTEN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Secretary Fudge,
so nice to see you here. Congratulations. We are fortunate to have
you at the helm of HUD.
This won’t surprise you: I would like to talk about climate
change, and specifically that the 2022 budget proposes $800 million
for targeted investments in energy efficiency and resiliency in the
housing sector. And this is through the Biden whole-of-government
approach to climate. And I am so excited to finally have a White
House that is taking a whole-of-government approach. It is mad-
dening to me that we subsidize energy extraction in this country
and we also subsidize energy conservation. It is amazing that we
get anything done when we are driving in the same direction.
My first question, and this could be very long but I want to get
to two more questions, so if you could just—I am just curious if you
are satisfied that within the silos within HUD, you are coordi-
nating and rowing in the same direction, and across the other var-
ious government agencies? Because we have never really had a
whole-of-government approach to climate change before. And are
you satisfied that you have the tools you need to coordinate and
make sure that we are rowing in the same direction? Is there any-
thing we can do to help, if not?
Secretary FUDGE. We just hired one person whose sole responsi-
bility is climate and working across agencies. So, I am feeling good
about the fact that we recognize that we have elevated it and are
giving that person the staff that they need, to make sure that we
can do this right.
Mr. CASTEN. Terrific. Well, let us know if we can help.
Second question. When I was with the President when he was
out in Illinois 2 weeks ago, we had a brief conversation about the
fact that there is that which is necessary, scientifically, for us to
leave a better planet to our children than the one we inherited, and
there is that which is politically possible. And over the course of
my lifetime and my brief tenure in this job, I think we have twisted
our arm an awful lot congratulating ourselves for doing what is po-
litically possible. And if you are comfortable answering the ques-
tion, I am curious whether $800 million of investment in our hous-
ing stock for resiliency and efficiency meets all of your needs, or is
that just the limit of what is possible?

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Secretary FUDGE. It certainly doesn’t meet all of the needs. I
don’t think that any of us believe that it does. But what we do
know is that it is a great place to begin. It is more than we have
ever put in it. It is more than we have ever done as a nation, espe-
cially when we have Members of this Congress who don’t even be-
lieve in climate change.
So we are doing the very best we can to really make a mark, and
to set the example for what we can do if we put the kind of re-
sources in it that it really needs.
Mr. CASTEN. Okay. My last question ties into a number of issues.
My colleagues have heard me say before that the CFTC, in the
Trump White House, issued this report managing climate change
in the financial sector, which pointed out, among other things, that
there is a huge concentration of exposure in the collateralized mort-
gage-backed securities market. I think it is something like 25 per-
cent of all of that portfolio is in Houston, New York, and Miami,
that are exposed to massive losses, and how should we be thinking
about that.
Now, that is obviously a bit outside of your agency, but as the
frequency of these natural disasters increases, the CDBG Disaster
Recovery Program has become an increasingly important portion.
In 2017, natural disasters caused $306 billion, with a ‘‘B,’’ in dam-
ages in the United States. But as I don’t need to tell you, that pro-
gram has never been authorized. So you have to come back for a
Federal Register notice for each one-off appropriation.
How would permanent authorization of that program better help
you do your job and better help communities recover after a dis-
aster?
Secretary FUDGE. It would help significantly. It would allow us
to move quicker. It would allow us to assess faster. Because right
now, we do have to come back for authorization. It would be tre-
mendous.
Mr. CASTEN. Thank you. I have no further questions. I appreciate
your time, and I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you. The gentleman from Texas,
Mr. Gooden, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. GOODEN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and welcome,
Madam Secretary.
An overwhelming amount of HUD funding to address homeless-
ness goes to continuum of care boards, and those boards are re-
sponsible, as you know, for providing a holistic approach to end
homelessness, including housing, soup kitchens, mental health, job
placement, et cetera.
It is my belief, based on conversations I have had with some in
my local area, that many of them—not all, but many—operate as
homeless cartels, if you will, with little oversight. The White House
and HUD requested roughly $3.12 billion for continuum of care
programs next fiscal year, and as an example of what I just stated,
recently a grand jury in Fresno, California, criticized the COC
model because it lacks transparency and is rife with conflicts of in-
terest. Additionally, a report from the California State Auditor con-
firmed the lack of oversight and effectiveness of continuum of care
boards. The grand jury also mentioned the same people who control

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these board funding allocations are the same people in charge of
the organizations receiving the funding.
Do you feel, Madam Secretary, that there are adequate measures
in place to provide effective oversight of these boards and prevent
waste, fraud, and abuse?
Secretary FUDGE. I do, but I also do believe, as well, that we
could do better.
Mr. GOODEN. Does HUD have any plans to improve these? Is
there a plan of action in place? I would also ask, would you agree
that allocating funding by some of these board members who may
also sit on the boards of a nonprofit could be a conflict of interest?
Secretary FUDGE. If there are conflicts of interests, of course it
would not be appropriate.
Mr. GOODEN. Wonderful. Would you commit to perhaps working
with my staff on this?
Secretary FUDGE. Absolutely. I would be happy to do it.
Mr. GOODEN. That would be great, and I appreciate that.
Moving on, one I constantly hear from local leaders in the rural
parts of my district is they often feel left out or forgotten when
working with Federal agents to address housing issues, and by
some estimates, writing a single Federal grant application takes a
nonprofit an average of between 80 and 200 hours, and many juris-
dictions do not have the staff or resources to even apply, let alone
compete. Would you care to comment, or would you comment spe-
cifically on plans that your organization may have to reduce that
burden and make it easier for small, rural localities, like those in
my district, to receive grants?
Secretary FUDGE. That is a major problem. That is also one of
the reasons we don’t have the emergency rental money out as fast
either, because smaller communities don’t even know how to get it.
They don’t have the capacity, once they receive it, to figure out how
to quickly move it through the system.
So we are working with rural and small communities, particu-
larly through technical assistance. I even met yesterday with the
League of Cities. We are doing all we can to be sure that we get
to those communities, because they get left out. I agree with you,
100 percent.
Mr. GOODEN. Thank you. And before I close, I would like to con-
gratulate you and welcome you. My friend, Congresswoman Jahana
Hayes, was sitting behind you, supporting you, so I think you are
missed by many of your colleagues. Welcome. Thank you.
Secretary FUDGE. Thank you.
Mr. GOODEN. I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you. The gentleman from New
York, Mr. Torres, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. TORRES. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And it is always
a pleasure to see you, Madam Secretary. I hope that your nephew,
who cares as deeply about the New York City Housing Authority
(NYCHA) as I do, is doing well.
As you know, the state of public housing has been plagued by
decades of disinvestment at the hands of the Federal Government.
I would characterize the state of public housing in New York City
as demolition by neglect. And the fate of the New York City Hous-
ing Authority, the fate of America’s largest public housing stock in

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59

America’s largest city will depend on what we do collectively in the
upcoming reconciliation bill.
NYCHA needs enough funding not only to address a capital need
of $40 billion, and counting, but also to transition to clean energy
building systems.
A central figure in the future of NYCHA is the HUD Regional
Administrator, a position that remains vacant. What is the
timeline for appointing a new HUD Regional Administrator specifi-
cally for Region 2?
Secretary FUDGE. I know that it is in the process that is done
by the White House Personnel Office, but I don’t know the time-
frame.
Mr. TORRES. Fair enough. On January 1, 2022, a new mayor of
New York City will assume office. The mayor historically has been
in charge of the New York City Housing Authority, by virtue of ap-
pointing both the CEO and the COO, the chair and the general
manager. But as you might know, the relationship between the
mayor and the Housing Authority was fundamentally altered by
the administrative agreement among HUD, the U.S. Attorney for
the Southern District, and the City of New York.
Given the certainty of a new mayor in January of 2022, does
HUD have any plans to restore mayoral control of the New York
City Housing Authority?
Secretary FUDGE. I would really need to look into it. I do know
that there is Federal oversight. I do know, as well, in my conversa-
tions with the Tenants Association there that they have some con-
cerns as well that we need to take into consideration. I don’t have
a problem with it personally, but I need to know if we can do it
legally.
Mr. TORRES. Fair enough. The President has proposed over $200
billion for affordable housing. When the subject of affordable hous-
ing is brought up, the question that often comes to mind is afford-
able for whom? And a concern that I have expressed is that if we
expand housing supply without expanding housing subsidy then we
run the risk of creating housing that is unaffordable to the lowest-
income Americans. In my view, the best path to affordability for all
Americans is the Ending Homelessness Act, which would
universalize Section 8 vouchers.
Of the $200 billion that the President has proposed for affordable
housing, how much do you envision going towards Section 8?
Secretary FUDGE. None of that, but there are set-asides, and he
is requesting 200,000 vouchers, in addition to the $200 billion for
new housing.
Mr. TORRES. So, that is in addition?
Secretary FUDGE. Correct.
Mr. TORRES. The Fair Housing Act—we often speak about sys-
temic racism, and I would argue nowhere is systemic racism more
manifest than in the area of housing, segregated housing, seg-
regated schools. Do you think that exclusionary zoning laws are ar-
guably a violation of the Fair Housing Act?
Secretary FUDGE. I am not sure, but I would suggest this: It is
a violation of everything we stand for.
Mr. TORRES. The Administration recommends grants incentives
for States to adopt land use reforms. Are you concerned that incen-

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60

tives can only take us so far, and that there might need to be en-
forcement of the Fair Housing Act?
Secretary FUDGE. I would say, as a former mayor, I know how
touchy that subject is with local communities, because they don’t
believe that the Federal Government should come and tell them
how they should zone. But I really do believe, Mr. Torres, that it
is a problem, and we have to address it. And I am going to look
at it from the law, and see if there is something that we could do
with Fair Housing. I think that it is a good way to approach it. We
will take a look.
Mr. TORRES. No, I know that there is resistance, but keep in
mind that historically, there has been resistance to Federal inter-
vention when it comes to voting rights. States and localities would
prefer to enact voting laws without any accountability to the Fed-
eral Government. But the reason for a Federal role is to crack
down on the complicity of States and localities in systemic racism.
So, I hope that is something you would explore in greater detail.
Secretary FUDGE. We are looking at systemic racism all through-
out HUD. Historically, systemic racism is in every single agency of
the Federal Government, and we are no different. So, we are trying
to address it.
Mr. TORRES. And obviously, public housing has been chronically
underfunded. Have you thought about how to bring greater ac-
countability to the operation and management of public housing? Is
that a subject you have thought about?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, I have given it great thought, because of
what I have found in my own travels, in talking with tenants, and
I talk to tenants every place I go. So absolutely, I have given it a
lot of thought.
Mr. TORRES. And what are your thoughts on the New York City
Housing Authority?
Secretary FUDGE. Well, one thing that I think that we have to
do is to be honest, to be transparent, and to do our part. We can’t
change it all, but certainly there are some things we can change,
and we should.
Mr. TORRES. I see my time is about to expire, but it’s always a
pleasure.
Secretary FUDGE. My pleasure, indeed.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much. The gentleman
from Florida, Mr. Lawson, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. LAWSON. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And Madam Sec-
retary, welcome to the committee. It certainly is a pleasure to see
you. I want to thank you, first of all, for the immediate action that
you were able to take on some of the housing problems that I have
in my district.
My question will probably come at the end, but what I want to
say is that during my tenure as a coach at Florida State Univer-
sity, I spent a lot of time—because that is where the athletes were
located—in New York, in Chicago, in Ohio, in Atlanta, and in many
of those areas where they came out of major housing complexes.
And there have been very little changes in some of the things that
I noticed then.
I am more concerned about—and I know that we face a housing
shortage here, but I am more concerned about the safety and the

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problems that I have been experiencing with some of the manage-
ment companies. And those management companies, I know, are
getting Federal dollars to keep up the upkeep and everything else.
Could you elaborate on what condition—because I did with the
last HUD Secretary and nothing much happened—what is a way
that we can improve the relationship with management companies
so they help keep up the properties, as so many, especially women,
have to depend on with a kid, to be in very safe conditions?
Secretary FUDGE. Let me just say, first off, it is nice to see you,
Mr. Lawson. That is our responsibility. We have 64 offices across
this country. We have a staff of about 7,000 people, not nearly
enough to do the work we do, but a big enough staff to do the work
that we should do. We have to do our part. We have to make sure
that our inspectors are doing their jobs, that our local people are
doing their jobs, and we are doing our jobs.
And we also have to hold these management companies and
landlords accountable, and let them know that we are not playing
about this. We are going to make them keep up their end of the
bargain, and we are going to keep up ours. It is all about leader-
ship, and it is all about demanding that we do the work that the
people are paying us to do, that we do the work that we have been
charged to do by this Congress.
Mr. LAWSON. That is very good to hear. And I know this might
have been addressed earlier, but I guess the key question in my
last 2 minutes is, and I know you have elaborated on it some, what
can we do in Congress? I have heard a lot of the other Members
say that we need this, or we need that. And I know you are more
familiar with what has happened in Congress over the years. But
what can we do now, in Congress, to alleviate a lot of problems
that would help you all do your jobs better?
Secretary FUDGE. I didn’t hear the last part, Mr. Lawson.
Mr. LAWSON. To help you all, what can we do in Congress—
Secretary FUDGE. Oh, what can you do to help us? One thing is,
of course, to give us the flexibility to do our jobs. I think it is im-
portant for people to understand, they don’t like the word, ‘‘flexi-
bility,’’ but if you allow us to do the work we know needs to be
done—we talk about regulations and restrictions, but some of those
are on us too. So, we need the flexibility to do the work that we
know that we should do. That is what we need you to do, is just
be supportive.
The other thing, I think, the biggest thing to do is to fund us
properly. At one point, HUD made up 7 percent of the entire
discretional Federal budget. Today, it is less than 1 percent, and
the problem is just as great.
Mr. LAWSON. I think one of the things that happened, before my
time runs out, that I noticed in the 41⁄2 years that I have been in
Congress, is that these issues come up about HUD, and there has
been a reluctance to provide the resources it really needs. But
when Members, myself and everybody, go back to their districts,
they see the hardships. But at the same time, they don’t realize
that a lot of that has to do with what we do here, and why we are
in Congress.
And with that, Madam Chairwoman, I yield back.
Chairwoman WATERS. Thank you very much, Mr. Lawson.

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I would like to now thank our distinguished witness, Secretary
Fudge, for her testimony today.
The Chair notes that some Members may have additional ques-
tions for this witness, which they may wish to submit in writing.
Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legis-
lative days for Members to submit written questions to this witness
and to place her responses in the record. Also, without objection,
Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous mate-
rials to the Chair for inclusion in the record.
And with that, I want to thank you so very much again, Sec-
retary Fudge, and the hearing is now adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 1:19 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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APPENDIX

July 20, 2021

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