Oversight of Fraud and Misuse of Federal Funds in Minnesota: Part II (March 4, 2026)
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Transcript of the hearing Oversight of Fraud and Misuse of Federal Funds in Minnesota: Part II, before the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, U.S. House of Representatives, on March 4, 2026 (Serial No. 119–59). Opening statements are listed for Chairman James Comer and Ranking Member Robert Garcia. Witnesses were The Honorable Tim Walz, Governor, State of Minnesota; The Honorable Keith Ellison, Attorney General, State of Minnesota; and minority witness Reverend Mariah Furness Tollgaard, Senior Pastor, Hamline Church United Methodist. The index lists news articles submitted by Rep. Garcia, and the Committee adjourned at 3:40 p.m.
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“Oversight of Fraud and Misuse of Federal Funds in Minnesota: Part II (March 4, 2026).”
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OVERSIGHT OF FRAUD AND MISUSE OF
FEDERAL FUNDS IN MINNESOTA: PART II
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND
GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
MARCH 4, 2026
Serial No. 119–59
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
(
Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
63–019 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
JIM JORDAN, Ohio ROBERT GARCIA, California, Ranking Minority
MIKE TURNER, Ohio Member
PAUL GOSAR, Arizona ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina Columbia
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
MICHAEL CLOUD, Texas RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI, Illinois
GARY PALMER, Alabama RO KHANNA, California
CLAY HIGGINS, Louisiana KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
PETE SESSIONS, Texas SHONTEL BROWN, Ohio
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona MELANIE STANSBURY, New Mexico
NANCY MACE, South Carolina MAXWELL FROST, Florida
PAT FALLON, Texas SUMMER LEE, Pennsylvania
BYRON DONALDS, Florida GREG CASAR, Texas
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas
WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina EMILY RANDALL, Washington
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee SUHAS SUBRAMANYAM, Virginia
LAUREN BOEBERT, Colorado YASSAMIN ANSARI, Arizona
ANNA PAULINA LUNA, Florida WESLEY BELL, Missouri
NICK LANGWORTHY, New York LATEEFAH SIMON, California
ERIC BURLISON, Missouri DAVE MIN, California
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
BRIAN JACK, Georgia RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
JOHN MCGUIRE, Virginia
BRANDON GILL, Texas
Vacancy
MARK MARIN, Staff Director
JAMES RUST, Deputy Staff Director
RYAN GIACHETTI, Chief Counsel
DANIEL FALCONE, Professional Staff Member
ROBERT FLORES, Professional Staff Member
JACK FURLA, Professional Staff Member
MARY WOODARD, Senior Counsel
MALLORY COGAR, Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
CONTACT NUMBER: 202–225–5074
ROBERT EDMONSON, Minority Staff Director
CONTACT NUMBER: 202–225–5051
(II)
C O N T E N T S
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. James Comer, U.S. Representative, Chairman ............................................ 1
Hon. Robert Garcia, U.S. Representative, Ranking Member ............................... 3
WITNESSES
The Honorable Tim Walz, Governor, State of Minnesota
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................ 5
The Honorable Keith Ellison, Attorney General, State of Minnesota
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................ 7
Reverend Mariah Furness Tollgaard (Minority Witness), Senior Pastor,
Hamline Church United Methodist
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................ 8
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S. House of
Representatives Document Repository at: docs.house.gov.
(III)
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ‘‘Attorney General Keith Ellison, My Meeting
Before Feeding Our Future Raid Was Routine’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, ACLU, ‘‘New Filings Detail Harrowing Accounts of ICE and
Border Patrol Violence’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, City of Minneapolis, ‘‘Operation Metro Surge Results in 203 Mil-
lion Impact’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ‘‘Source Disputes Story Prompting Trump’s
Comments About Somalis in MN’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, Becker’s Hospital Review, ‘‘States Ranked by Medicaid Fraud
Dollars in 2022’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, New York Times, ‘‘The ICE Shooting Came During an Operation
Focused on Somali Immigrants’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, AP News, ‘‘US Citizen Says ICE Detained Him in Underwear
in Frigid Cold With No Warrant’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Advisory Opinion from MN AG Ellison, December, 2025; submitted by
Rep. Garcia.
* Advisory Opinion from MN AG Ellison, February, 2025; submitted by
Rep. Garcia.
* H.F. 2354—Medical Assistance Protection (MAP) Act; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* MN Stat. 388.051; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* MN Stat. 631.50; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* MN Stat. 8.01; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Notification from CMS, RY 2025 Medicaid Improper Payment Rates;
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Report, Cato, ‘‘Public Corruption by State’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, FoxNews, ‘‘Aimee Bock Alleges Gov Tim Walz, AG Keith Ellison
Knew of MN Fraud’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, AlphaNews, ‘‘Anti-ICE Agitators Set Up Blockade on MN Street,
Check Divers’ License Plates’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ‘‘Biden Clemency for Convicted Fraudsters Met With
Outrage, ‘Slap in the face’ ’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, NBC News, ‘‘Biden’s Clemency and Pardon List Includes Former
Elected Official, Lawyers and Medical Bill Company Owner’’; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ‘‘Conservatives Blast Dems, Walz for Likening ICE
Agents to Nazi Police Force’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Fox9, ‘‘ICE Restricted From MN-Owned Parking Areas, Mayor
Frey Orders’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, NYP, ‘‘Minnesota AG Who Took $10K From Scammers Says
Fraud Scandal is ‘Political Theater’ ’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, MN Reformer, ‘‘MN AG’s Legal Opinion Could Threaten Some
County Agreements With ICE’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, FoxNews, ‘‘MN Grandma Jailed for Defying Walz COVID
Lockdown Orders Warns ‘You Do Not Want Tyranny At This Level’ ’’;
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
(IV)
* Article, The Express, ‘‘MN Mom Jailed Over COVID Accuses Walz of
‘Tyranny’ ’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Caller, ‘‘Mother Ponders ‘Taking Out’ Her Own Kids To
Avoid ICE’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, North Dakota Monitor, ‘‘North Dakota Judge Blasts Biden for
Setting Fraudsters Free’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Caller, ‘‘SCOOP, Tim Walz Accused of Stonewalling Key
Probe as Somali Fraud Sweeps His State’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Daily Mail, ‘‘The Drug Dealers, Thieves and Gang Leaders Who
Are Granted Clemency by Biden’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ‘‘Tim Walz Urges Minnesotans to ‘Resist’ Federal ‘Oc-
cupation’ ’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Reason, ‘‘Tim Walz Was a COVID–19 Tyrant’’; submitted by
Rep. Biggs.
* Article, CNN, ‘‘Victims Shocked After Biden Grants Clemency to Kids
for Cash’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Breitbart, ‘‘Walz, Omar Using ICE Operations to Distract from
Fraud Scandal’’; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Newsweek, ‘‘Who Has Joe Biden Pardoned, Full List’’; submitted
by Rep. Biggs.
* Memo, Judiciary Dems, ‘‘Trump’s Pardons Cheat Victims’’; submitted
by Rep. Brown.
* Matthew 25 NIV; submitted by Rep. Cloud.
* Article, Alpha News MN, ‘‘Vance, Rosen Warn Minnesota, Medicaid
Funds Frozen as Fraud Prosecutions Ramp Up’’; submitted by Rep. Comer.
* Staff Report, ‘‘The Cost of Doing Nothing: How Tim Walz and Keith
Ellison Fueled Minnesota’s Fraud Explosion’’; submitted by Rep. Comer.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ‘‘Minnesota Fraud—What is the ‘Right’ Num-
ber’’ by Jim Nobles; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Article, The Guardian, ‘‘Fraud Focus Why is Trump Granting Clemency’’;
submitted by Rep. Frost.
* Report, Cato, ‘‘Public Corruption by State’’; submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Letter from America First Policy Institute, to Chairman Comer re fraud;
submitted by Rep. Gill.
* Report, ‘‘MN Financial and Compliance Report on Federally-Assisted Pro-
grams’’; submitted by Rep. Grothman.
* Article, MN Star Tribune, ‘‘Gov Walz Calls for Tougher Medicaid Fraud
Penalties as FBI Investigates Autism Centers’’; submitted by Rep. Higgins.
* Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. McCollum.
* Article, KARE 11, ‘‘KARE 11 Investigates—Evicted, Homeless, Paying
the Price for Minnesota’s Fraud Crisis’’; submitted by Rep. McGuire.
* Article, Hechinger Report, ‘‘Parental Stress, Raids, and Isolation’’; sub-
mitted by Rep. Pressley.
* Letter, State Legislators Tell Congress; submitted by Rep. Pressley.
* Article, The Guardian, ‘‘Somalis are the Scapegoat’’; submitted by Rep.
Randall.
* Article, ProPublica, ‘‘How Trump Has Exploited Pardons’’; submitted by
Rep. Randall.
(V)
* Article, HuffPost, ‘‘Military Commander Tells Troops’’; submitted by Rep.
Randall.
* Article, Washington Post, ‘‘Trump’s Pardons Wipe Out Payments’’; sub-
mitted by Rep. Randall.
* Article, ABC News, ‘‘Trump’s Flurry of Pardons’’; submitted by Rep.
Randall.
* Report, ‘‘Roadmap to Program Integrity and Fraud Prevention’’; sub-
mitted by Rep. Timmons.
* Article, The Guardian, ‘‘Fraud Focus, Why is Trump Granting Clemency’’;
submitted by Rep. Tlaib.
* Article, Reuters, ‘‘Trump Aide Homan Accepted $50,000’’; submitted by
Rep. Walkinshaw.
The documents listed above are available at: docs.house.gov.
ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Keith Ellison; submitted by Rep. Comer.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Keith Ellison; submitted by Rep. Jack.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Tim Walz; submitted by Rep. Comer.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Tim Walz; submitted by Rep. Turner.
* Questions for the Record: Hon. Tim Walz; submitted by Rep. Jack.
These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be available
upon request.
(VI)
OVERSIGHT OF FRAUD AND MISUSE OF
FEDERAL FUNDS IN MINNESOTA: PART II
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 2026
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:04 a.m., in HVC–
210, U.S. Capitol Visitor Center, Hon. James Comer [Chairman of
the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Comer, Jordan, Turner, Gosar, Foxx,
Grothman, Cloud, Palmer, Higgins, Sessions, Biggs, Mace, Fallon,
Donalds, Perry, Timmons, Burchett, Boebert, Luna, Langworthy,
Burlison, Crane, Jack, McGuire, Gill, Garcia, Norton, Lynch,
Krishnamoorthi, Khanna, Mfume, Brown, Stansbury, Frost, Lee,
Casar, Crockett, Randall, Subramanyam, Ansari, Bell, Simon, Min,
Walkinshaw, Pressley, and Tlaib.
Also present: Representatives Emmer and McCollum.
Chairman COMER. The hearing of the Committee on Oversight
and Government Reform will come to order.
I want to welcome everyone here today.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any time.
I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN JAMES COMER
REPRESENTATIVE FROM KENTUCKY
Good morning. Today’s hearing is about a failure of leadership,
plain and simple. For years, Governor Tim Walz and Attorney Gen-
eral Keith Ellison presided over one of the most extensive break-
downs of oversight this Committee has ever examined. Billions of
taxpayer dollars were stolen from social services programs while
warnings piled up, whistleblowers spoke out, and state officials
chose delay and denial over action. Federal prosecutors estimate
that as much as $9 billion may have been stolen from just 14 Med-
icaid programs administered by the State of Minnesota. Those pro-
grams have cost taxpayers more than $18 billion since 2018, and
investigators believe that half or more of that spending may have
been lost to fraud. And that did not happen overnight. As our in-
vestigation has shown, it happened because state leadership failed
repeatedly to intervene. Governor Walz has claimed his Adminis-
tration addressed fraud ‘‘very early,’’ but that claim does not hold
up to the facts. His Administration kept payments flowing.
(1)
2
In January, in the first hearing of this series, we heard from
Minnesota State representatives who made clear this fraud was not
hidden. It was known, documented, and repeatedly brought to the
attention of state leadership. In case after case, state agencies
identified red flags and received warnings from auditors and em-
ployees but continued to send money out the door, not because they
lacked authority to intervene, but because they feared lawsuits,
bad press, and political backlash. While Governor Walz hesitated,
taxpayers lost billions.
Attorney General Ellison has likewise claimed his office was ag-
gressively holding fraudsters accountable, but when his statements
were tested against the record, they fell apart. In the Feeding Our
Future case, Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison publicly
suggested that courts forced the state to continue payments. The
judges in that case took the extraordinary step of publicly cor-
recting them. The truth is the state made a choice, once again, to
keep sending the money out the door. The Feeding Our Future
scandal alone involved nearly $300 million stolen from programs
meant to feed children during the pandemic. We are talking about
fake invoices, meals that never existed, luxury cars, and overseas
investments, all paid by the American taxpayer. Today, dozens
have been convicted, the fraud was real, the warning signs were
obvious, and state leadership failed to act.
The same pattern repeats across Minnesota’s social services sys-
tem. In the Childcare Assistance Program, providers racked up doz-
ens and, in some cases, more than a hundred violations and still
collected millions. Facilities shut down and reopened the same day
under new names at the same address. This went on for years.
Housing Stabilization Services, a program expected to cost $2.6
million annually, exploded to over a hundred million dollars a year.
Federal prosecutors have described it as ‘‘easy money.’’ Providers
built services never delivered while the Walz Administration failed
to intervene until Federal agents showed up, and when state em-
ployees tried to stop this, they were silenced and retaliated against
for even daring to notice the fraud. We have spoken with over 30
whistleblowers, many of them current employees and Democrats,
who say they were ignored, retaliated against, and even surveilled
for raising concerns. Instead of protecting the whistleblowers, the
Walz Administration protected the system that enabled the fraud.
We are taking oversight of fraud seriously, and today, I hope the
Democrats will do the same, but their track record is not prom-
ising. We followed up with the whistleblowers when state leaders
ignored them. Republican staff spent 36 hours and 46 minutes in
nine transcribed interviews with current and former Minnesota
State officials. Democrats, however, only asked 3 hours and 14
minutes’ worth of questions. That is inexcusable and, frankly, em-
barrassing. Taxpayers deserve better.
We are working with the Trump Administration, which is taking
a whole-of-government approach to stop fraud before money is sto-
len. What we have uncovered in Minnesota is not a paperwork
error or a few bad actors slipping through the cracks. It is sus-
tained failure of leadership. Governor Walz and Attorney General
Ellison were warned repeatedly, auditors raised red flags, employ-
ees sounded alarms, invoices did not make sense, and still the
3
money kept flowing. While state officials hesitated, billions of tax-
payer dollars were stolen from programs meant to serve children,
the disabled, and families in crisis. While whistleblowers were si-
lenced, fraudsters got rich. Accountability should not begin only
after Federal prosecutors step in and cleanup the damage. Account-
ability should compel leaders to act, and here, they did not. Today,
this Committee expects answers, and we expect an explanation for
why it took Federal law enforcement, not state leadership, to fi-
nally turn off the spigot.
Before we proceed, I would like to ask unanimous consent to
enter the Committee’s interim staff report titled, ‘‘The Cost of
Doing Nothing: How Tim Walz and Keith Ellison Fueled Min-
nesota’s Fraud Explosion,’’ into the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
And with that, I now yield to Ranking Member Garcia for his
opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER ROBERT GARCIA
REPRESENTATIVE FROM CALIFORNIA
Mr. GARCIA. Thank you, Chairman Comer. I want to thank, of
course, the Governor for being here today, the Attorney General as
well. And to Reverend Mariah Tollgaard, thank you so much for
being here. I especially, though, want to thank the Minnesotans
that I know have traveled here to be with us today to witness this
hearing, but also in solidarity of the horrors and terrors that are
happening, not just in Minnesota, but that are happening across
the country.
Now, we look forward to hearing directly on what life in Min-
nesota has been like thanks to the Trump Administration’s actions,
and the truth is that Donald Trump and Republicans have cut bil-
lions of dollars—billions of dollars—from healthcare and food as-
sistance. That is a reality. Instead, with that money, they have
used it to hire officers who are now terrorizing cities and killing
Americans. That is where our taxpayer dollars have gone. We have
taken from food assistance, we have taken from healthcare, and we
super funded terror on American streets.
Now, Donald Trump has unleashed chaos against innocent Amer-
icans and across Minnesota, and we are going to talk about that
today, terror that has actually impacted real families and kids like
Liam Ramos, who have been used, as we know, as bait, and we all
know Liam’s story really well. The reality is American citizens, in-
nocent kids, people have been brutalized and ripped away from
their families. They have been thrown into detention centers with
horrible conditions that people are literally dying in these centers.
Peaceful Americans have been killed by Federal officers and agents
and labeled them as domestic terrorists or assassins by their own
government. Where is the hearing and the outrage for those ac-
tions?
Now, Alex Pretti, as we all know, a VA nurse was peacefully ex-
ercising his First and Second Amendment rights when he was pep-
per sprayed, tackled, disarmed, and then shot repeatedly in the
back. Renee Good, a mom who told an officer, ‘‘I am not mad at
you,’’ was shot dead just moments after. And this pattern of vio-
lence and lawlessness, we have seen, of course, all over the coun-
4
try. Now, our Committee and Democrats have documented over 590
cases of suspected misconduct by President Trump and Kristi
Noem’s immigration and enforcement agents across the country,
not just in Minnesota. There have been 240 incidents of violence
or concerning use of force, and 181 have involved United States
citizens. Now, we have heard testimony that Immigration and Cus-
toms Enforcement (ICE)’s training has actually completely
changed, and now it actually teaches our agents to violate the
rights of American citizens. That is what we are teaching now to
Federal agents, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Department
of Homeland Security (DHS) and ICE are out of control and must
be held accountable by the Congress. Now, Oversight Democrats
have been partnering to hold hearings to investigate these abuses,
to hold DHS Secretary accountable, Stephen Miller, Greg Bovino,
and make no mistake: this is Donald Trump’s personal police and
military force he is unleashing on American streets.
Now, the hearing that we have today is going to build on those
investigations. Operation Metro Surge, which we are going to hear
a lot about today, this is really about, not just what is happening
in Minnesota through that operation, but the ways that President
Trump has waged his own personal war on Minnesota. Of course
we are talking about fraud, according to our Republican colleagues,
but instead of improving systems to prevent future fraud, Trump
has also cutoff $259 million in Medicaid funding to the state. He
has threatened Federal food aid for 600,000 Minnesotans, including
200,000 kids. President Trump has tried to use fraud as his excuse
for all of this, but what is really happening is violence, terror,
death, destruction, and ripping away services from those that need
it. You do not fight fraud by issuing Presidential pardons to
fraudsters. You do not fight fraud from ripping away food assist-
ance to kids.
Now, since his reelection, Trump has also given out jail free
cards to dozens of actual real fraudsters who could get out of repay-
ing their victims more than $1 billion. Where is the fraud hearing
on those abuses? And we know that you just do not fight fraud by
singling out states led by Democrats and ignoring states led by Re-
publicans. Every single person here, and I know the Governor and
the Attorney General believe this as well, we all want to fight
fraud, waste, and abuse in government. Oklahoma, by the way, and
Alabama lead the Nation in SNAP fraud. In Texas and Florida, a
Russian citizen has been arrested for submitting billions of dollars
in fraudulent claims and funneling millions overseas. Where are
those hearings? Where is the Governor of Oklahoma, or Alabama,
or Texas, or Florida?
I also want to note this. Because of the Trump Administration’s
illegal and unconstitutional actions, we know there are now 31 of
64 lawyers at the Minnesota U.S. Attorney’s Office that have left.
That is stunning. The lead attorney responsible for pursuing these
fraud cases has left because the Trump Administration ordered
them, we know, to investigate Renee Good’s widow, not her killer.
They were ordered to investigate Renee Good’s widow, not her kill-
er. If the President cared at all about fraud, we would not have all
of these officers with all this illegal behavior on Minnesota streets.
5
And we should remember that the Trump Administration tried
to use Operation Metro Surge as leverage to seize Minnesota’s
voter rolls. The Trump Administration was never serious about ad-
dressing fraud in Minnesota. Instead, they have been interested in
election conspiracy theories and terrorizing kids, and they have ac-
cused the Governor and Attorney General of covering up fraud,
only to investigate them and turn up actually no evidence. What
they are trying to do is convince Americans that there is a good
reason for violence, for killings, and for violations of the law. That
is not acceptable, and we are not going to take that here today.
I want to thank our witnesses again for being here, and I yield
back.
Chairman COMER. The Ranking Member yields back. I would like
to welcome our witnesses. First, we have Tim Walz, Governor of
the State of Minnesota. Governor Walz first took office in January
2019. Next, we have Keith Ellison, Attorney General of the State
of Minnesota. Attorney General Ellison also first took office in Jan-
uary 2019. Finally, we have Reverend Mariah Furness Tollgaard,
Senior Pastor, Hamline Church, United Methodist. Thank you all
so much for joining us today, and we look forward to your testi-
mony.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please stand
and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Governor WALZ. I do.
Mr. ELLISON. I do.
Reverend TOLLGAARD. I do.
Chairman COMER. Let the record show that the witnesses an-
swered in the affirmative, and please take a seat. We appreciate
you being here today and look forward to your testimony.
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statement and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please
limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. As a reminder, please
press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on
and the Members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light
in front of you will turn green. After 4 minutes, the light will turn
yellow. When the red light comes on, your 5 minutes have expired,
and we would ask that you please wrap up.
I now recognize Governor Walz for his opening statement. Gov-
ernor?
STATEMENT OF HON. TIM WALZ
GOVERNOR, STATE OF MINNESOTA
Governor WALZ. Thank you, Chairman Comer, Ranking Member
Garcia, and Members of the Committee. I am proud to be here
today as the Governor of the great State of Minnesota. Under my
leadership, Minnesota has dedicated its resources to ensuring that
all Minnesotans can live dignified and full lives with access to top-
notch public schools, quality healthcare, good jobs. Thanks to these
initiatives, Minnesota has been ranked as one of the best states to
raise a family in, one of the best states to find a job in, and one
of the best states to live in.
6
Although Minnesota’s programs have overwhelmingly achieved
their intended purposes, they are not immune from fraud. I will be
the first to acknowledge that. But let me be clear. In Minnesota,
if you defraud public programs, if you steal taxpayer money, we
will find you, we will prosecute you, we will convict you, and we
will throw you in jail.
In this anti-fraud mission, we keep good company. Across the
country, our Nation’s Governors work hard every single day to com-
bat fraud in their programs. But even as we confront issues similar
to our sister states, the people of Minnesota have been singled out
and targeted for political retribution at an unparalleled scale, in-
cluding blocking Medicaid reimbursements to our state just last
week. Under the guise of combating fraud, the Federal Government
has flooded Minnesota with masked, untrained, and unaccountable
agents who are wreaking havoc in our communities.
On the streets of Minnesota, Federal agents have entered U.S.
citizens’ homes who have committed no crimes. They have violated
the constitutional rights of our citizens. They have ignored court
orders. They have shot first and asked questions later. Time and
again, they have gaslit us by demanding that we ignore what we
see before our very eyes, but the American people are not so easily
fooled. The image of this brutal campaign are seared into our col-
lective memory: the fragile innocence of the 5-year-old boy in a
bunny hat being let away from his family; the maddening cruelty
of a barely clothed man, a U.S. citizen, being dragged from his
house in the dead of winter; the sheer devastation we feel seeing
the lifeless bodies of Renee Good and Alex Pretti.
Long after the Federal Government’s agents of chaos pack up
and leave, and long after the fraudsters in whose name this hear-
ing was supposedly called, are prosecuted and imprisoned, the good
people of Minnesota will still be picking up the pieces from these
senseless acts of cruelty and violence. As we forge ahead, I hope
Minnesotans will remain grounded in a sense of justice, a sense of
right and wrong. We know that the way to deter crime is to pursue
offenders regardless of who they are, not to pardon them because
of who they know. We understand that a key to keeping our people
safe is to allow prosecutors to uphold the law, not to punish them
for refusing to violate it. And we appreciate that public trust comes
from building common sense, anti-fraud safeguards into our pro-
grams, not by tearing down established norms.
I have been invited here today to talk about how Minnesota pur-
sues these objectives, and I hope we can have a conversation about
how to strengthen program integrity in every state in the Nation.
A single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar we cannot tol-
erate. That is why as Governor, I have taken decisive action. I ap-
pointed a head of program integrity to oversee statewide anti-fraud
efforts. I created the position of Inspector General at the Minnesota
Department of Education. At the Department of Human Services,
I ordered data-driven reviews and, where appropriate, corrective
action against providers. I have directed my Administration to
work with our partners in state, Federal, and tribal law enforce-
ment to make sure that fraudsters go to jail. Our cooperation with
the FBI and the Department of Justice have led to serious criminal
charges for over 75 individuals. Most importantly, year in and year
7
out, and long before Minnesota programs were featured on right-
wing social media, I have worked with the Minnesota legislature
to give state agencies the authority they need to take action based
on red flags when they discover them.
There is undoubtedly more to do. We will continue to do the im-
portant work of combating fraud, but as we do so, we are going to
remain true to Minnesota principles, we will feed our hungry chil-
dren, we will help the poor afford healthcare, we will assist people
with disabilities while also keeping fraud in check. We will dem-
onstrate our decency, our integrity, and never yield to political
scapegoating, particularly of our most vulnerable communities.
In these extraordinarily trying times, the people of Minnesota
have come together to show the world their values. I am proud and
honored to be their Governor, and I look forward to today’s ques-
tions.
Chairman COMER. Thank you, Governor. We now recognize At-
torney General Ellison.
STATEMENT OF HON. KEITH ELLISON
ATTORNEY GENERAL, STATE OF MINNESOTA
Mr. ELLISON. Thank you, Chairman Comer, and thank you,
Ranking Member Garcia, and thank you to all the Members of the
Committee. My name is Keith Ellison, and I have the honor of
serving as Minnesota’s Attorney General. You have invited me here
today to speak about the topic I feel very strongly about: fraud en-
forcement. I look forward to discussing the contributions of my of-
fice and the contributions we have made to fighting fraud in our
state. Fraud in government programs is reprehensible. It takes
food from the tables of the hungry. It takes shelter from those
without it. I have worked every day as Attorney General to hold
fraudsters accountable, and I am proud of our record.
We have won 300 Medicaid fraud convictions, more than any
other state of similar size, and recovered over $80 million for Min-
nesota taxpayers. We have returned tens of millions of dollars to
victims of consumer fraud in Minnesota. Since 2019, our Charities
Division has resolved over 50 investigations and dissolved 17 sham
nonprofits. It is important to note that under Minnesota law, my
office has limited jurisdiction over criminal matters. The only kind
of criminal case we can prosecute all on our own is Medicaid fraud.
Any other kind of criminal case must be referred to us by county
attorneys.
Still, we have punched above our weight where we do have crimi-
nal jurisdiction. I am proud that over the past six years, my Med-
icaid Fraud Control Unit has ranked fifth in the Nation in fraud
convictions. Last week, I urged the state legislators to pass a bipar-
tisan Medical Assistance Protection Act, which would give us addi-
tional resources to prosecute Medicaid fraudsters. Where fraud oc-
curs outside of our jurisdiction, my office has and will continue as-
sisting our local and Federal partners. When our help is requested,
we support our 87 county attorneys in Minnesota, and we regularly
coordinate with Federal investigators and prosecutors to combat
fraud. That type of collaboration between enforcers at all levels of
the government is essential in this fight, and that is why, if we are
8
to discuss law enforcement efforts in Minnesota, we cannot ignore
the devastating effects of Operation Metro Surge.
As you know, the Trump Administration, on the pretext of fight-
ing fraud, unleashed over 3,000 masked armed agents on the
streets of Minnesota, and as a result, two U.S. citizens were killed
by Federal agents, Renee Good and Alex Pretti. Federal law en-
forcement still refuses to cooperate with us in investigating their
deaths. Young, innocent children were detained and traumatized.
Schools and businesses were forced to close, costing countless fami-
lies their jobs, their livelihoods, their education, and costing our
state hundreds of millions of dollars in economic damage. Oper-
ation Metro Surge did nothing to address fraud in our state, it
harmed our economy, it scarred our people, and it dealt a dev-
astating blow to fraud enforcement in Minnesota.
As a result of Metro Surge, Federal prosecutors’ efforts to fight
fraud in Minnesota have suffered a major setback. In the U.S. At-
torney’s Office, six high-ranking attorneys resigned because of the
Department of Justice pressured them to investigate Renee Good’s
grieving widow. Eight more prosecutors then followed. The remain-
ing staff should be spending their time prosecuting fraudsters and
criminals. Instead, they are drowning in immigration-related peti-
tions resulting from Operation Metro Surge.
Mr. Chair, Members of the Committee, we cannot combat fraud
without consistent messaging and support from our political lead-
ers. All sides—Republicans and Democrats, the Federal Govern-
ment and the states—must work together if we are going to win
the fight against those who would steal from the public. We need
our leaders to unite in that effort, not to use it as a political tool
to score political points. I stand ready and willing to work with the
Members of this Committee to advance the cause of holding
fraudsters accountable. Now more than ever, we need coordinated,
cooperative engagement across law enforcement if we are to
achieve our goals. I look forward to your questions.
Chairman COMER. Thank you, General. I now recognize Rev-
erend Tollgaard for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF REVEREND MARIAH FURNESS TOLLGAARD
(MINORITY WITNESS), SENIOR PASTOR
HAMLINE CHURCH UNITED METHODIST
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Chairman, Ranking Member, Members of
the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I am
the Reverend Mariah Tollgaard, and I serve as Senior Pastor at
Hamline Church, United Methodist in St. Paul, Minnesota. I come
before you today in my personal capacity as a pastor, as a citizen,
as a mother, an ordinary Minnesotan who has witnessed up close
the fear and harm that Operation Metro Surge has inflicted on our
state.
The hearing today is about fraud in Minnesota, which is serving
as a pretext for the terror the Federal Government has brought to
the people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as a rationale
for deploying 3,000 Federal immigration enforcement agents into
our state in operations that target the most vulnerable among us,
but are indiscriminately impacting all of us. Let me tell you about
what this looks like where I live.
9
In my church, Members have been afraid to come to worship and
have even postponed funerals. An elderly Hmong man in our city,
a U.S. citizen, was taken from his home in the freezing cold, wear-
ing only his underwear and a blanket. ICE vehicles drive recklessly
through our neighborhoods in packs of four to six, stopping people
of color for proof of citizenship, including a local police officer. In
St. Paul Public Schools where my three daughters attend, nearly
a quarter of students enrolled in distance learning because families
were too afraid to leave their homes. My 8-year-old struggles to
sleep at night because she is afraid ICE agents might break into
our house. At local elementary schools in Minnesota and across the
country, students are practicing drills for what to do if ICE is near
their school. Let that sit with you: American children are now prac-
ticing two kinds of drills at school, one for an active shooter and
one to protect themselves from their own government. That is not
security. That is a Nation failing its children.
This is happening to all of our neighbors in Minnesota. Every
Minnesotan has stories that will stay with you, from hearing of
someone hiding in a walking cooler or the back room when ICE
stormed into their workplace, to friends and family members being
followed when dropping off their children at daycare. In Minnesota,
we love our neighbors. We care for one another, and because we be-
lieve that every person bears the image of God, we have built sys-
tems that reflect that belief: free meals for all children, healthcare
for families who need it, schools where every kid belongs. That is
what love of neighbor looks like in action.
This Administration has targeted Minnesota because we live out
our values of loving our neighbors. These tactics aimed at under-
mining those values have not succeeded. When unidentified
masked agents appeared on our streets, Minnesotans put on their
own uniforms and it said, ‘‘Neighbor.’’ Motivated by faith and con-
science, we bought groceries for families in hiding. We paid rent.
We drove children to school. We stood vigil at mosques. We served
as constitutional observers. We pledged to care for children if par-
ents were detained. We sang, we marched, we prayed. As a pastor,
I say to you, if you feel even a flicker of discomfort hearing these
stories, pay attention to it. If you hear about children like Liam
Ramos, if you saw the videos of the murders of Alex Pretti and
Renee Good, if you know of workers arrested in the very res-
taurants where they serve Federal agents their meals, if you un-
derstand that citizens and legal residents have been wrongfully de-
tained and something in you tightens, that is not partisanship.
That is conscience. In my faith tradition, we call that the still quiet
voice, the voice of God. It is not too late to listen, to change our
minds, our hearts, and our policies.
To the Members of this Committee and our leaders across gov-
ernment, the question I leave with you is simple. What are you
willing to do about it? Your silence has a cost, and it is being paid
right now by children who cannot sleep, families who cannot
grieve, and communities that are hollowed out. To Americans
across the country and those watching from home, and particularly
to the families still too afraid to leave their houses, there are more
people fighting for you than you know. Jesus teaches us in Mat-
thew 25, ‘‘Whatever you do for the least of these, you do unto Me.’’
10
History will tell its story about us, but long before then, our own
souls will know whether we stood with them or turned away. No
Nation can build a true future on the terror of its own people. Se-
curity built on fear will shatter the first time it is tested. Only a
community that chooses love of neighbor over fear will endure, and
that is still within our power to become.
Thank you for allowing me to share our story. I am deeply proud
to be a Minnesotan.
Chairman COMER. Thank you. Without objection, Majority Whip,
Tom Emmer from Minnesota, and Representative McCollum, also
of Minnesota, are waived on to the Committee for the purpose of
questioning witnesses at today’s Committee hearing.
Without objection, so ordered.
Okay. I would like to recognize Representative McCollum for a
UC.
Ms. MCCOLLUM. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to, for the
record, have a unanimous request put in with the statement.
Thank you.
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
We will now begin our questions, and Chair recognizes the
Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Mr. Jordan from
Ohio.
Mr. JORDON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, why didn’t
you tell the truth? Why didn’t you just tell the truth about the
Feeding Our Future program? This program, in my understanding,
received $3 million the first year, within a couple years was getting
$200 million of taxpayer money. Whistleblowers raised concerns.
As the Chairman said, auditors raised concerns. Everybody raised
concerns. March 30, 2021, the payments are stopped, and a little
over a month later, the payments are restarted. Why didn’t you tell
the truth about why you restarted the payments?
Governor WALZ. Well, Chairman, we did tell you, and Feeding
Our Future (FOF) grew because of the pandemic, and——
Mr. JORDON. I did not ask that question. I said why didn’t you
tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? The pay-
ments stopped because there were concerns obviously, or you would
not stop the payments. Then they are restarted a month later.
What was the reason for restarting the payments?
Governor WALZ. My understanding was the agency believed that
the court had required them to make those payments.
Mr. JORDON. And that was false, wasn’t it, and you repeated
that, and you repeated.
Governor WALZ. I think that is——
Mr. JORDON. You said that, didn’t you? You said that is one of
the reasons——
Governor WALZ. I do not think——
Mr. JORDON. You said the reason you restarted is because the
court ordered you to do so. Is that right?
Governor WALZ. I do not believe that is settled yet to the best
of my knowledge.
Mr. JORDON. Well, I think it is because the court did something
that—I do not know if I have ever seen it. They issued a statement
saying you were wrong in what you were saying. This is from the
court. It says, ‘‘Feeding Our Future v. Minnesota Department of
11
Education Correcting Reports and Statements by Governor Tim
Walz concerning Orders Issued by the Court.’’ Here is what the
judge says: ‘‘Governor Tim Walz told the media that the Minnesota
Department of Education attempted end payments to FOF because
of possible fraud, but that Judge Guthmann ordered payments to
continue in April 2021.’’ Next sentence, ‘‘That is false.’’ So, you said
something was not true. He further states this, Judge Guthmann,
or the court says this, ‘‘Judge Guthman never ordered the Depart-
ment of Education to resume payments to Feeding Our Future in
April 2021 or at any other time.’’ So, I want to know why didn’t
you tell the truth?
Governor WALZ. Congressman, the attorneys at the Department
of Education interpreted that differently. Both of those judges are
no longer on the bench, and I think that interpretation——
Mr. JORDON. Let me just read the very first sentence, the first
seven words. This is not some unnamed source talking to The New
York Times. This is not some anonymous source talking to what-
ever, Minnesota Star Tribune or whatever your paper is. This is
the court speaking. First sentence, first seven words: ‘‘Due to inac-
curate statements by the Governor, Ramsey County District Court
Judge has issued and authorized that this following news is re-
leased.’’ That is pretty straightforward. So, the court is lying?
Governor WALZ. I cannot tell you, Congressman, but the inter-
pretation was——
Mr. JORDON. Well, somebody is lying. Somebody is, because you
cannot say the court ordered you to restart the payments, and then
the court says we did not order you to restart the payments. So,
either you are lying, or the court is lying, and I am just asking you,
which one is it?
Governor WALZ. I just simply know what the attorneys at the
agency believed that it was a misinterpretation.
Mr. JORDON. Could it be——
Governor WALZ. And I would note that those payments——
Mr. JORDON. Could it be you were trying to hide behind the
court, Governor? Could that maybe be the reason why you issued
the statements you did and why the court had to do something you
never see done before? They issue a press statement saying you are
wrong. The Governor is wrong. His statement is, their words, not
mine, ‘‘false.’’ Could that be the reason?
Governor WALZ. That was not the interpretation of the attorneys,
and you know how courts work. You can appeal those, Congress-
men, as you well know. I am sure there——
Mr. JORDON. Was it all about politics, Governor?
Governor WALZ. No, it is about taking care of our people, which
Minnesota does better than anyone else.
Mr. JORDON. Yes. These programs go from $3 million. The Be-
havioral Intervention Program went from $3 million to $400 mil-
lion in five years. The housing stabilization went from $2.6 million
to $104 million. The Integrated Community Supports went from
$4.6 million to $170 million in three years. And this is unbelievable
what is happening, and you are trying to hide behind some pretend
court order, some court order that did not exist. Governor, who is
Kayseh Magan?
Governor WALZ. I do not know who Keyseh Magan is.
12
Mr. JORDON. Well, I will tell you. Mr. Magan is a Somali-Amer-
ican and a fraud investigator in the guy beside you’s office, in the
Attorney General’s office, and here is what he said: ‘‘There was a
perception that forcefully tackling this issue might cause political
backlash among the Somali community, which is a core voting
bloc.’’ Did that have anything to do with this whole fraud scheme
that went on in your state, Governor?
Governor WALZ. It did not, Congressman.
Mr. JORDON. It did not. So, now you are saying Mr. Kayseh
Magan is lying, too?
Governor WALZ. I am not.
Mr. JORDON. You are the only one telling the truth in the whole
state. Mr. Magan, who is a fraud investigator at the Attorney Gen-
eral’s office says it is politics. The court said you were stating——
Governor WALZ. I could not speak for Mr. Magan. You asked me
a question.
Mr. JORDON. I know. I am asking——
Governor WALZ. I said no when you asked me the question.
Mr. JORDON. And I am saying Kayseh Magan said just the oppo-
site.
Governor WALZ. I do not know. You——
Mr. JORDON. So, the court is wrong and Kayseh Magan is wrong,
and you are the only guy right. How many people have been in-
dicted in your state right now? Do you know, Governor?
Governor WALZ. I do not have those numbers with me.
Mr. JORDON. You do not? Ninety-eight people been indicted. You
happen to know how many are Somali American?
Governor WALZ. I do not. We do not investigate or prosecute peo-
ple based on ethnicity, religion.
Mr. JORDON. Neither do I. We should not do that, but Mr. Magan
is a Somali American who just said that one of the concerns was
this is a core voting bloc, and I just want to know if you know how
many of the 98 people who have been indicted in your state are So-
mali.
Governor WALZ. I do not. Their ethnicity is not my concern.
Mr. JORDON. Eighty-five. Eighty-five percent of the people in-
dicted were Somali American, a key voting bloc, and I think that
is what drove this whole thing. With that, I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. Before I recognize
the Ranking Member, it is my understanding, Mr. Biggs, you seek
recognition.
Mr. BIGGS. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have some UCs. Here you go:
‘‘Biden Clemency for Convicted Fraudsters Met With Outrage.’’
Next one: ‘‘Biden’s Clemency and Partner List Includes Former
Elected Officials.’’ Next one: ‘‘The Drug Dealers, Thieves, and Gang
Leaders Granted Clemency By Joe Biden.’’ Next one, ‘‘North Da-
kota Judge Blasts Biden for Setting Fraudsters Free.’’ Next one,
‘‘Victims Shocked After Biden Grants Clemency to Kids for Cash.’’
Next one, ‘‘Who Has Joe Biden Pardoned?’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ranking Member Garcia from Cali-
fornia.
Mr. GARCIA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank, of
course, our witnesses again for being here.
13
Now, of course, over the past two months, countless brave Min-
nesotans have shared their stories of heartbreak and violence and
terror, not just with us on this Committee, but with folks across
the country. Peaceful protestors have been shot in the streets. Chil-
dren have been snatched from their schools, people dragged from
their cars and tackled at work. And we know that parents, of
course, have been missing work, and children have been missing
school.
Now, Reverend Tollgaard, I want the country to really under-
stand the effects on kids. Are you seeing families who cannot go to
work, who cannot go grocery shopping, and who cannot take their
kids to school or the library or the park because they are terrified
to leave their home? Are you seeing that?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Yes, that is what we are seeing in Min-
nesota.
Mr. GARCIA. And this includes, of course, U.S. citizens, right? We
are talking about also families, U.S. citizen families, and kids who
are United States citizens. Is that correct?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Yes, people who are U.S. citizens and legal
residents.
Mr. GARCIA. Well, thank you. I want to just show this image
here.
[Poster]
This is an image of some kids, including, by the way, one of Liam
Ramos’ classmates. These are kids that are being held at U.S. de-
tention centers and detention facilities. Now, Reverend Tollgaard,
when children hear about thousands of kids being detained, report-
edly almost 4,000, that must be terrifying. Is that correct?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. That is absolutely terrifying for children to
hear these stories and to fear for that experience.
Mr. GARCIA. And would you say that kids are scared at their
school?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Kids are scared at their schools, at home.
Mr. GARCIA. Parents are scared of what is going to happen to
their children. Would you say that is correct also?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. That is correct.
Mr. GARCIA. Well, thank you. Now, we are discussing the vio-
lence and brutality that has happened, and I want to show another
image. It is kind of difficult, I think, to see, but I think it is impor-
tant for the American public to continue to see it.
[Poster]
Now, this is the driver’s seat of Renee Good’s car seat after an
ICE agent shot her dead. Now, Reverend Tollgaard, are families in
your community afraid that this sort of horrific image could happen
to them next?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Yes.
Mr. GARCIA. Are kids scared that this type of horrific image could
happen to one of their parents?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Kids like my own, kids like the kids in my
church, are afraid that that could happen to their parents when
they speak out.
Mr. GARCIA. And let us remember that an ICE agent specifically
told a protestor, ‘‘Have y’all not learned from the past couple of
days?’’ This is just two days after Renee Good was shot. That is
14
being told to people on the ground in Minneapolis and across the
country, across Minnesota, and it is not acceptable. We should be
clear here. This violence does not make us safer. It does not ad-
dress fraud, waste, and abuse. It does not help families with
healthcare, does not grow or build small businesses, and it is cer-
tainly, as we are continuing to discuss, is not preventing the kind
of fraud that Republicans are discussing here today.
Now, Governor, can you walk us through specifically how Oper-
ation Metro Surge affected Minnesota’s ability to investigate actual
fraud?
Governor WALZ. Well, thank you, Congressman. Well, first of all,
as I have said, we have been partners with our Federal partners,
whether that be the FBI or be the U.S. Attorney’s Office, which I
will note was one of the premier U.S. Attorney’s office, regardless
of who they were appointed by. Right now, those lead investigators
and basically that whole team has left that office. They have not
been filled back in. The U.S. Attorney, himself, was in front of a
Federal judge yesterday on contempt issues of that office not work-
ing together.
Now, look, we are going to prosecute, as we have, every single
person that is involved in fraud, but we cannot do it alone. The At-
torney General’s office is doing everything they can. He has consist-
ently come and asked the legislature for more money, more of the
investigators he needs, but right now is the backlog at the U.S. At-
torney’s office is being challenged by the Federal courts. It makes
it more difficult for us to get those cases over to them. But the good
news is the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is con-
tinuing to do those. We got a conviction this week. Those are things
that will continue on.
And while we need to put in all the safeguards, we need to, as
you heard the Attorney General’s opening statement, if we partner
together in this, our chance of defeating this fraud is that much
higher, but right now, it is stymied. There are no investigators over
there, there are no U.S. attorneys, the FBI has been decimated,
and it is very difficult.
Mr. GARCIA. And that right there, the American public needs to
hear. I mean, it is completely outrageous what has happened to
those that are actually trying to take on fraud in Minnesota and
across the country. Those offices have been decimated, and there
is no support. Not acceptable. And, Governor, finally, there appears
to be actually no evidence that ICE and DHS reign of terror in
Minnesota that continues has actually prevented any fraud. Is that
your assessment, sir?
Governor WALZ. That is correct. What you saw on the streets did
not do anything to it, and we have actively asked, if you have folks
who can help us, if you have folks who are good at the forensics,
if they can help us do this, we want you there. As we have for the
last seven years that I have been Governor, we partnered together
and convicted people.
Mr. GARCIA. Thank you, and with that, I also, just for the record,
want to introduce our report as well. Today, the Democratic staff
released it as well as it relates to this hearing and Operation Metro
Surge. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
15
The Chair now recognizes our Majority Whip, Representative
Emmer from Minnesota.
Mr. EMMER. Thank you, Chairman Comer, and actually, thank
you, Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, for appearing
before the Committee today.
Gentlemen, let us see if we can agree on at least one thing today.
Today’s hearing is titled, ‘‘Oversight of Fraud and Misuse of Fed-
eral Funds in Minnesota.’’ Can we agree that this fraud is a serious
thing, Governor Walz? Yes or no. Can we agree on that?
Governor WALZ. Yes, any fraud is serious.
Mr. EMMER. Thank you, because it is interesting that you and I
agree that it is a serious thing considering the man sitting next to
you, your Attorney General, Keith Ellison, just two months ago
said, ‘‘This is a political matter. This is not a serious thing.’’ Attor-
ney General Ellison, is there an organized crime ring operating in
Minnesota? I will answer for you, sir. Governor Walz believes there
is an active crime ring in our state. In October, the Governor said,
‘‘We have got an organized crime ring in Minnesota. I think it has
been going on for years.’’
Moving on, Mr. Ellison, I, along with millions of Americans, have
grave concerns over your alleged relationships with Somali
fraudsters who have since been charged and convicted of Federal
crimes. I am sure you are aware that over 90 percent of the defend-
ants charged in the Feeding Our Future fraud case are of Somali
descent. In fact, you have personal knowledge of these people.
There is a 54-minute audiotape of your meeting with these crimi-
nals in December 2021, and during your meeting, they complained
to you about increased scrutiny of their nonprofits and you told
them, ‘‘Of course I am here to help.’’ It is on the internet. Anyone
can listen to you say that. Since then, you claim you were not
aware of their crimes in the $250 million Feeding Our Future
scheme, the largest pandemic fraud case in the Nation, but just
weeks after your December 2021 meeting, the FBI executed search
warrants that you never would have requested in the Feeding Our
Future fraud investigation.
Now, let us fast forward to September 2022. Ten months after
you met with the Somali fraudsters, your office issued a press re-
lease stating, ‘‘Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison and his
office have been deeply involved for two years in holding Feeding
Our Future accountable.’’ So, according to your office, sir, you have
been deeply involved in the Feeding Our Future case since Sep-
tember 2020. That actually sounds like you are saying that at the
time of your infamous meeting with the Somali fraudsters, you
were already aware of the allegations of fraud. When you had this
meeting in December 2021, did you know, sir, about the long-run-
ning FBI investigation into Feeding Our Future? Yes or no.
Mr. ELLISON. Mr. Chairman, Representative Emmer——
Mr. EMMER. Reclaiming my time. When did you personally be-
come aware of the FBI investigation? That is all I am asking.
Mr. ELLISON. Representative Emmer, as you know, I have ad-
dressed this issue many times. I have——
Mr. EMMER. All right. Reclaiming my time. In that same meeting
with the fraudsters, Mr. Attorney General, you took aim at the
Minnesota Department of Education. You stated that the Min-
16
nesota Department of Education had fought the nonprofit in very
disgusting ways, in a very racist, xenophobic, and Islamophobic
manner. You actually asked for the names of all these folks who
are just hung up and offered to call the Minnesota Department of
Education to ‘‘demand some explanations.’’ We now know that
when you made these comments, the Biden DOJ was working with
the Minnesota Department of Education and that their work ex-
posed the massive fraud ring. Pretty bad look for you, sir. Either
you were oblivious to what was going on under your nose, or worse,
you were trying to obstruct the work of the Minnesota Department
of Education. So, I can see the time is getting short.
Mr. Chairman, we are left with two questions. One, what did
Governor Walz and Keith Ellison know about the fraud, and two,
when did they actually know it? I would suggest that if they do not
give direct and truthful answers to both these questions at this
hearing, then they both need to be put under oath in a deposition.
This is a serious thing, Mr. Attorney General. You are the only one
who thinks protecting taxpayer dollars is political. Mr. Ellison, my
concern is that you actively obstructed this investigation in ex-
change for campaign donations, a quid pro quo. If these concerns
are proven to be true, you should be disbarred, and you should go
to jail. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Ms. Norton from Washington, D.C.
Ms. NORTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is critical that the
Federal Government support people who need assistance with food,
housing, and healthcare. Unfortunately, as long as the government
provides these services, there will be bad actors trying to take ad-
vantage of them. We need to prevent and identify these fraudsters
so that social services can reach those who need them. However,
we cannot recklessly deny help to many people who need services
because of a few bad actors.
My Republican colleagues have now held two hearings to talk
about fraud in one single state, but they have completely ignored
the fact that the Trump Administration is the most corrupt Admin-
istration in history. If Republicans really cared about fraud abuse
and holding criminals accountable, they would call them out: Don-
ald Trump, for firing 17 Inspectors General. These internal watch-
dogs are the front line of rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse of
Federal agencies. The Trump Administration has also retaliated
against whistleblowers and allowed Administration officials to en-
gage in serious conflicts of interest that often cross the line into
outright corruption. We need inspectors general, whistleblower pro-
tections, and rules prohibiting conflicts of interest to protect Fed-
eral programs and make sure that people can get the services they
need.
Across the country, Americans are struggling to afford their
healthcare premiums and groceries. The Trump Administration
should be strengthening the social safety net, not cutting the safe-
guards that catch the fraudsters taking advantage of it, and I yield
back.
Chairman COMER. The gentlelady yields back. I will now recog-
nize myself for 5 minutes.
17
Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, my questions are
going to be simple and direct. Governor Walz, you were inaugu-
rated as Governor on January 17, 2019, and have served in that
role through two terms ever since, correct?
Governor WALZ. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. During the time period 2019 and 2020, while
you were serving as Governor, isn’t it true that state auditors and
officials raised concerns about fraud and vulnerabilities and pro-
grams overseen by your Administration?
Governor WALZ. I cannot confirm that, but I am assuming we
have always ongoing Office of the Legislative Auditor (OLA).
Chairman COMER. I will take that as a yes. Those warnings were
communicated to senior officials in your Administration, including
yourself, correct?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak if it was directly.
Chairman COMER. I think the correct answer to that would also
be yes. Despite those warnings, you did not order a broad stop pay-
ment or suspension of payment in any program at that time, cor-
rect?
Governor WALZ. We are not going to stop payments that feed
children until we have the proof that things happened. In 2019, we
did start taking action. I went to the legislature that legislates.
Chairman COMER. Okay. Okay. Governor Walz, when fraud con-
cerns were raised early in your tenure in the Childcare Assistance
Program, did your Administration stop payments at that time?
Governor WALZ. The Childcare Assistance Program in the——
Chairman COMER. The answer is no. When fraud concerns were
raised——
Governor WALZ. Would you like me to answer or not, Chairman?
Chairman COMER. Well, it is yes or no.
Governor WALZ. I am trying to. I want you to help——
Chairman COMER. You have already answered the question. You
said you did not ever stop payments, and that is what the problem
is, and that is what the Democrats are complaining about, ‘‘Oh my
gosh, Trump stopped payments.’’ Well, my god, you lost billions to
fraud in Minnesota. That is what this hearing is about.
Governor WALZ. But, Mr. Chairman, that——
Chairman COMER. You did not stop payments because you did
not want to rock the boat, and when fraud concerns were
raised——
Governor WALZ. That is not correct, Chairman.
Chairman COMER. When fraud concerns were raised in Medicaid,
Home and Community-Based Services, did your Administration
stop payments? No, you did not. When fraud concerns were raised
in non-emergency medical transportation, did your Administration
stop payments?
Governor WALZ. Chairman, if I could mention what a stop pay-
ment meant by what the Administration did last week is 400,000
children without healthcare. Are you stopping payment at one per-
son?
Chairman COMER. We believe that is your fault and the Attorney
General’s fault because you do nothing about fraud, even though
everyone in America sees with their own eyes the fraud.
18
Governor WALZ. Our Medicare error rate is lower than your
states.
Chairman COMER. You have been defrauded. You have not been
good stewards of the taxpayer dollars, and the Democrat position
is, well, keep the money flowing. The American taxpayers have had
enough. They have had enough.
Governor WALZ. I think that that is an unfair characterization.
Chairman COMER. They want their taxpayer dollars spent wisely.
We all support social programs to the vulnerable.
Governor WALZ. That is not a fair characterization.
Chairman COMER. But if you are going to waste the money to
fraudsters, then we have to stop and recalculate.
Governor WALZ. We are not. We are putting them in jail when
we can, Chairman, and some of these programs are crafted in such
a way that there is a procedure to follow. And I am with you: one
dollar is too much. I do not think there is a lot of difference here
if you want to help us get at this. The question is, is it a sledge-
hammer, or is it a scalpel? I understand. There is no political up-
side to it.
Chairman COMER. Let us get into what we have talked—you
eventually did pause payments in certain programs, but that was
not until late 2025 after the Federal Government stepped in. Is
that correct?
Governor WALZ. I do not think that is a fair characterization of
stepped in. We have been partners in this and working on them,
but——
Chairman COMER. All right. Let us move on, and that decision
occurred only after large-scale fraud had already taken place for
years. Now, Governor Walz, employees inside state agencies raised
concerns about fraud and improper payments for years. Is that cor-
rect?
Governor WALZ. Inside agencies? We have been prosecuting them
for years, yes.
Chairman COMER. They have raised concern. Agencies have
raised concern about fraud in Minnesota, correct?
Governor WALZ. Which of those——
Chairman COMER. For years.
Governor WALZ. Yes, when they do, and they are prosecuted, yes.
Chairman COMER. Some of those employees faced retaliation
after raising those concerns. Is that correct?
Governor WALZ. That is not correct, Chairman.
Chairman COMER. Okay.
Governor WALZ. Minnesota has strong whistleblower protections.
Chairman COMER. Attorney General Ellison, you are the chief
legal officer of the State of Minnesota, correct?
Mr. ELLISON. Yes.
Chairman COMER. Your office advises agencies on compliance
with Federal and state law, correct?
Mr. ELLISON. Yes.
Chairman COMER. Retaliation against whistleblowers reporting
fraud is unlawful, correct?
Mr. ELLISON. That is right.
19
Chairman COMER. At any point during your tenure, did you tell
state agencies to stop payments due to credible fraud allegations?
Yes or no.
Mr. ELLISON. Sir, we prosecuted over 300 people in the Medicaid
fraud area.
Chairman COMER. Three hundred, I would——
Mr. ELLISON. We convicted them. We——
The CHAIRMAN [continuing]. Predict is a drop in the bucket, but
you have never said to stop payments. That is——
Mr. ELLISON. It is one of the highest rates in the country, sir.
Chairman COMER. Well, you have one of the highest fraud rates
in the country in Minnesota.
Mr. ELLISON. That is not true, and my office does not have the
authority to do a stop payment.
Chairman COMER. All right.
Mr. ELLISON. We prosecute criminals when they are presented to
us by the agency.
Chairman COMER. So, the answer is no, unfortunately. No one
has ever from your office said to stop payments until we can get
the fraud under control. So, to summarize, you both knew about
fraud risk, and payments continued. Our investigation has shown
that whistleblowers were alerted about the widespread fraud, were
ignored, sidelined, and even retaliated against. Only after Federal
authorities ultimately stepped in, did you take any action. It is not
this Committee’s responsibility to decide guilt or dole out punish-
ment, but it is clear there was a massive failure of oversight and,
quite frankly, a failure of leadership. One wonders whether either
of you should bear some personal responsibility for the billions of
dollars siphoned off by fraudsters under your noses in the state
that you led. Again, this is not for the Committee to decide, but
based on your answers today and apparent failure to take any re-
sponsibility, still the answer to that question has become abun-
dantly clear. And now, I recognize——
Ms. RANDALL. Mr. Chair, I seek unanimous consent to enter
items into the record.
Chairman COMER. All right. Before I recognize Mr. Lynch, Ms.
Randall, you have a UC?
Ms. RANDALL. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into
the record a November 12, 2025, article from ProPublica entitled,
‘‘How Trump Has Exploited Pardons and Clemency to Reward Al-
lies and Supporters,’’ which shows President Trump rewards those
in his good graces. I also seek recognition to insert into the record
a Washington Post article from December 19, 2025, entitled,
‘‘Trump’s Pardons Wipe Out Payments to Defrauded Victims,’’
which shows that President Trump lets criminals and fraudsters
walk free.
Chairman COMER. Okay. With that——
Ms. RANDALL. And I also seek unanimous consent to enter into
the record an article from May 29, 2025, from ABC News, titled,
‘‘Trump’s Flurry of Pardons Include Some Campaign Contributors.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
And, Ms. Pressley, we will do one at a time. We will go to Mr.
Lynch, then I will recognize you.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you.
20
Chairman COMER. Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see
you, my friend. Attorney General Ellison, good to see you again.
Reverend, thank you for your willingness to testify before the Com-
mittee.
I want to shift gears here a minute, and I want to focus on ICE.
So, I was recently asked to serve as the co-chair of the FIFA 2026
soccer tournament. It is a global tournament, the largest sporting
event in the world, and my home city of Boston has been asked to
host a lot of the games. In Boston, we will host teams from Mo-
rocco, Ghana, Bolivia, Iraq, Scotland, France, England, and
Suriname. We will also host over three million foreign national
visitors who are coming into Boston for these tournaments, and we
recently learned from the Trump Administration that ICE will play
a key role in the security operations during those games. So, we
have got all these people flying in, foreign nationals, a lot of dif-
ferent countries, South America and elsewhere.
Governor, since you have had direct and relevant experience on
dealing with the Metro Surge and the security operations of ICE,
I was interested in getting your thoughts and your observations
and any recommendations you might have to help us with con-
fronting our experience or what we expect to see during these
games with ICE coming in, as well as so many foreign visitors.
Governor WALZ. Well, as I think the world saw, and do not take
my word for it, take professional law enforcement across Minnesota
and across the country, the most unprofessional, aggressive force
that I think you could imagine. And I was here in front of this
Committee and answered all your questions on June 12, and I
warned this Committee what a masked group of folks turned loose
in an American city could do, and if I am not mistaken, I said
someone could get killed doing this. And I just want to be very
clear about this. When Tom Homan had to come in to clean up the
mess of Secretary Noem and Greg Bovino, Secretary [sic] Homan
himself acknowledged Minnesota follows the law, exactly as I told
you in this Committee.
So, my advice to you, Mr. Lynch, is to get very public upfront
commitments from these folks. While I disagree with Mr. Homan’s
views on many things, he is at least professional enough that he
pulled the leash back and pulled these folks out of Minnesota after,
again, misrepresenting the number of people they were detaining,
misrepresenting before he got there exactly what Minnesota did,
and I am just going to name it on accountability. The Secretary of
DHS being chastised by Republican Senators added insult to injury
to Minnesota, pouring salt in the wounds of the parents of Alex
Pretti and Renee Good’s family by not even apologizing or acknowl-
edging. And if you want accountability, for one of the times, as far
as I know, the attorneys know better, we not being included in the
investigation. And the actions that were taken of a gentleman who
was shot in the leg was the night that Kristi Noem called me a do-
mestic terrorist and said that this gentleman was attacking Fed-
eral agents. Well, now we know the story. They lied. They are now
under investigation, ‘‘they’’ being the Federal agents.
So, look, I am with you. I want your help on fraud. Why would
I not want money to go to the programs I care deeply about—feed-
21
ing people, clothing people, housing people? But what ICE did dis-
rupted everything that we were doing, it disrupted our Federal
partners, and it forced our law enforcement agencies, who have
worked hard to gain the public trust, to have the public believe in
them. So, my advice to you is, and especially when the world is
coming to see this, let Boston’s finest lead, let the people of Massa-
chusetts lead, let the Tenth Amendment stand for something, and
allow us to be able to do this. The people of Minnesota will hold
us accountable if they do not feel we are doing a good enough job,
but to demonize and retribution against a state, in the words of the
President, in the words of the Vice President, have done nothing.
So, Mr. Lynch, the world should be looking forward to coming,
but I would get it upfront, and I would make sure that Boston’s
Police Department are in the lead.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you. Attorney General Ellison, we need co-
ordination between law enforcement agencies. This is a big job.
What are your views on that likelihood of cooperation from ICE?
Mr. ELLISON. Well, I hope you get the cooperation that you need.
In Minnesota, we do not have a good record of cooperation, which
is interesting because so many times in the past, we have had
great cooperation between local Federal enforcers and local state
ones, and we have just worked seamlessly. Nowadays, that has all
changed, and that is quite unfortunate.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you
for the courtesy.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. Ms. Pressley?
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you. I asked unanimous consent to enter
to the record a February 2026 letter from 200 state lawmakers urg-
ing Congress to exercise its oversight authority and demand the
Administration immediately restore full childcare funding that it
had frozen for five states.
Chairman COMER. Without objection, it is ordered.
The Chair recognizes Dr. Foxx from North Carolina.
Ms. FOXX. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our witnesses
for being here.
Governor, you have reminded people that you were here last
June. At that time, I reminded you that the Feeding Our Future
scam made Minnesota ground zero for the largest COVID–19 fraud
scheme in the Nation. $250 million of Federal taxpayer funds were
taken out of the mouths of hungry children, and as the FBI noted,
they were ‘‘funneled into luxury homes, cars, and lavish lifestyles
while families struggled.’’ You assured me then that you whole-
heartedly supported the Federal Government’s effort to bring those
responsible to justice. I appreciate your sentiment, but a person’s
actions matter more than their words. Governor Walz, when did
you first become aware of the fraud in Feeding Our Future? A spe-
cific date, please.
Governor WALZ. Well, Congresswoman, it is good to see you, and
having served in your job for 12 years, I can tell you my job is a
little different as Governor for seven years. I take a lot of meetings.
I certainly would not specifically state, but I think during that pan-
demic, I think by late 2020, we started to see the irregularities.
They were flagged, and I will note that we cooperated.
22
Ms. FOXX. Right, but the state officials were aware of the fraud
in early 2020.
Governor WALZ. So, you are asking when I, in my office, the Gov-
ernor became aware.
Ms. FOXX. Yes.
Governor WALZ. And I do not have a specific date.
Ms. FOXX. Okay.
Governor WALZ. But what I would say is we provided witnesses’
documents to the U.S. Attorney and the FBI, and 79 of those peo-
ple have been prosecuted going back to 2022.
Ms. FOXX. Okay. Well, when I was Chair of the Committee on
Education and Workforce, I issued you a subpoena in September
2024 because you and your Administration were not forthcoming
about how your Administration ‘‘failed to identify what has been
described as the largest pandemic fraud in the Nation.’’ In Sep-
tember 2024, you were aware of the Feeding Our Future fraud and
your Administration’s handling of it, correct? Yes or no.
Governor WALZ. 2024? Yes, by that time, we had already put
people in jail and had extensively investigated it.
Ms. FOXX. This Committee has testimony that the Minnesota De-
partment of Education briefed your office about the Feeding Our
Future draft lawsuit and litigation hold on April 28, 2020. Let me
jog your memory. Is that correct?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak specifically to that, and if it is
my——
Ms. FOXX. Okay. It was April 2020. That means Feeding Our Fu-
ture received a total of over $200 million in Federal funds after you
and your Administration knew about the fraud concerns. Why
didn’t you stop sending money to Feeding Our Future as soon as
the fraud concerns were raised?
Governor WALZ. Congresswoman, as following the program. We
notified the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) under the
Trump Administration’s first term. We had notified them, too, be-
cause it is a program administered out of USDA, and they were
working to work through the process. Eventually——
Ms. FOXX. Didn’t you say you were fearful of political retaliation
from the FOF founder?
Governor WALZ. No, I never said any such thing. I never said
any such thing.
Ms. FOXX. Well, that is what we understood, you were afraid of
political retaliation. So, given the size and scope of the Feeding Our
Future fraud, I think you and your Administration would have
been on high alert looking for additional fraud in the state. But
after seeing the handling of Feeding Our Future and its $250 mil-
lion in fraud, it came as no surprise to learn that even more stag-
gering amounts of fraud, estimated at up to $9 billion, were uncov-
ered in the Childcare Assistance Program, the Minnesota Medicaid
program, and other programs. How could you allow such massive
fraud schemes in your state to get to this point?
Governor WALZ. Congresswoman, we do not see anything by $9
million. Local press and everyone reports it about $300 million. But
as I have said, if it is one dollar, it is too much, but we started in
2019 putting anti-fraud programs forward. After Feeding Our Fu-
ture, we started going through and making sure every program had
23
the integrity in it that it needed, and that is why you see convic-
tions. That is why you see these programs going forward.
Ms. FOXX. But why did it take did it take nearly seven years for
you to get engaged to stop the fraud? Seven years.
Governor WALZ. We started in 2019, Congresswoman. It may be
a surprise. If you arrest someone for stealing a car, other people
are still going to try and steal cars. What we have tried to do is
bring program integrity, but I will go back to this. We are not
going to shut down programs that have things that are going well
in it, and we need to find that proper balance, and I have acknowl-
edged that every year, we are putting things in place, and Inspec-
tors General——
Ms. FOXX. Governor Walz, Governor Walz, you did not do your
job. You did not do your job. You did not protect taxpayer dollars.
You allowed massive fraud. You and Mr. Ellison allowed massive
fraud to go on in the State of Minnesota, and it is unfortunate, as
somebody said, that you cannot be held personally responsible at
this stage of the game. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Krishnamoorthi from Illinois.
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Governor Walz,
you have seen firsthand the brutal excessive force used by ICE and
Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agents in Minnesota. Unfor-
tunately, we saw the same tactics employed in Chicago during Op-
eration Midway Blitz. I want to turn now to ICE and CBP’s horrific
pattern of abuse.
Secretary Noem went to our cities ostensibly under the guise of
arresting ‘‘the worst of the worst,’’ but in Illinois, less than 3 per-
cent of those arrested during Operation Midway Blitz had criminal
histories. In Minnesota, the vast majority of those detained had
never been in trouble with the law, correct?
Governor WALZ. I believe that is correct, Congressman.
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. There were also more than 170 cases this
year where ICE and CBP detained U.S. citizens. U.S. citizens
should never be detained by ICE, correct?
Governor WALZ. That is correct.
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. According to——
Governor WALZ. I would hope we all could agree on that.
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. Well, I hope so, too.
[Poster]
According to the Chicago Sun Times, Federal agents have pepper
sprayed children, including this 1-year-old baby in Chicago, and
children should never be pepper sprayed, right?
Governor WALZ. I would hope we could all agree on that, too.
They should not.
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. And according to the Independent, CBP
agents dragged a 67-year-old U.S. citizen out of his car, breaking
his ribs and causing internal bleeding. No person should be sub-
jected to that kind of treatment, right?
Governor WALZ. They should not, Congressman.
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. Attorney General Ellison, let me turn to
another topic. In President Trump’s second term, ICE has become
America’s highest-funded Federal law enforcement agency with a
budget of more than $85 billion. If ICE were an army, this budget
24
would make it the 13th largest army in the world. Let us look at
where that money has gone. Last year, DHS spent $172 million on
two private luxury jets for Secretary Noem. I assume you are not
aware of a stop payment on that particular payment, right?
Mr. ELLISON. No, I am not, sir.
[Poster]
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. Republican Senator John Kennedy yester-
day grilled Secretary Noem about a $220 million ad campaign fea-
turing her prominently, including on this horse in front of Mount
Rushmore. Secretary Kennedy suggested this was wasteful spend-
ing, and I agree. I assume you would agree with that as well,
right?
Mr. ELLISON. I do.
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. This gross misuse of funds must end now,
and Secretary Noem must be held accountable. Not tomorrow, not
next week, now.
Chicago was ground zero for Secretary Noem’s overreach when
she launched Operation Midway Blitz. Chicago media reported that
ICE and CBP agents had pepper sprayed a 1-year-old baby, shot
at a pastor, harassed seniors, tased U.S. citizens, and even killed
a person. It is clear that Midway Blitz was never intended to make
Chicago safer. In December, ICE and CBP began Operation Metro
Surge in Minnesota. Over 3,000 agents were sent to one state.
There were military-style raids at childcare centers, children kept
home from school, adults postponing medical care. In Minneapolis,
Renee Good and Alex Pretti, both U.S. citizens were fatally shot by
Federal officers. It is clear that Operation Metro Surge was never
intended to make Minnesota safer.
But this is not isolated to just Illinois and Minnesota. Inside de-
tention centers across the country, the suffering continues. Detain-
ees report physical and sexual abuse, medical neglect, and pressure
to self-deport. On top of that brutality, Kristi Noem is misusing
funds to buy herself private jets and enrich her associates. Kristi
Noem is testifying in the House Judiciary Committee today, but
she must come before this Committee to explain the rampant cor-
ruption and waste within her Agency. DHS is out of control. There
is no congressional oversight. I was denied entrance to ICE facili-
ties twice in Illinois. There is no accountability. Secretary Noem
has still not appeared before this Committee, nor has she re-
sponded in a substantive manner to more than one dozen letters
I have sent her. There are no consequences.
Noem is still the leader of DHS despite regularly breaking the
law and abusing her authority. Secretary Noem must answer for
her wrongdoing, for Jaime, my State of the Union guest, who raises
his little sister after his father was coerced into self-deportation; for
Chicago and Marimar Martinez who was shot five times; for my
constituent, Evelyn, an 18-year-old U.S. citizen who was wrongfully
detained by ICE; for Renee Good, Alex Pretti, and Silverio Villegas-
Gonzalez, and all the other victims of ICE and CBP, for the Amer-
ican people. It is for all those reasons that, Mr. Chairman, pursu-
ant to Clause II(k)(6) House Rule XI, I move to subpoena Kristi
Noem to testify before the House Committee on Oversight and Gov-
ernment Reform. This is for every family impacted by Kristi
Noem’s terror campaign. They demand answers, and so do I.
25
Chairman COMER. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today’s hearing. The
Committee will now proceed with today’s hearing, and I want to re-
mind everyone, I believe Kristi Noem is testifying in front of the
Homeland Security Committee in the House today after testifying
in the Senate yesterday.
Before I recognize Mr. Cloud, I believe Mr. Higgins has a UC?
Mr. HIGGINS. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to
enter into the record an interview from December 2024, The Min-
nesota Star Tribune with Governor Walz noting the Federal inves-
tigation into the Early Intensive Developmental and Behavioral
Intervention Program, the EIDBI Program, serving autism pa-
tients, since its first year of inception in 2017, growing from $1.7
million per year to over $400 million per year. Unanimous consent,
sir.
Chairman COMER. Without objection so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Cloud from Texas.
Mr. CLOUD. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for holding this
hearing. This hearing was designed to be a hearing looking into the
massive expansion of some of the social programs and the fraud
that was contained therein, but, Reverend Tollgaard, I was struck
by part of your opening statement because you invoked Matthew
25, and that is a scripture we see tossed around a lot up here, but
often without context. And so, I went and got my Bible and thought
we would dig into Matthew 25 for a minute. The scripture you in-
voked was Matthew 25: 35–40. It ends with this. It says, ‘‘Then the
righteous will answer to Him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry,
feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink, and when did
we see you as stranger and invite you in or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’ And the
King will answer to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that
you did to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them,
you did this to Me.’ ’’ I would ask you, who is the ‘‘you’’ in that pas-
sage?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Thank you for your question. ‘‘You,’’ mean-
ing all of us, the followers of Christ.
Mr. CLOUD. The followers of Christ, right. In Matthew 24:3, it
says, ‘‘After Jesus was sitting on the Mountain of Olives and the
disciples came to him privately, and then they asked him,’’ and
that began this whole chapter. Now, what Christ did not say was
to lobby your government. He said if you have, you give. That is
the general biblical principle here. You know, II Corinthians chap-
ter nine gives us probably the best scriptural understanding of
what charity is. It says, ‘‘Each of you should give which you have
decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly under compulsion, for
God loves a cheerful giver.’’ Would you say that taxes are under
compulsion?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Taxes are not my area of expertise, but
I——
Mr. CLOUD. But are they given under compulsion? Do you pay
your taxes?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. As a U.S. citizen, I pay my taxes, as we
all do.
Mr. CLOUD. Yes, because what happens if you do not?
26
Reverend TOLLGAARD. We do not have the services that we need
to support our——
Mr. CLOUD. What happens to you personally if you do not pay
your taxes?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. You get in trouble.
Mr. CLOUD. You get in trouble, and I would say that is under
compulsion. So, if we are talking about what charity is—I am al-
ways amazed in D.C. how much of we get to define our personal
worth as a politician or statesman, or whatever you want to call
us, by how much of other people’s money we give away. And so,
there is certainly a place for a social safety net potentially, but the
idea that Matthew 25 is kind of used as a blanket statement, as
a matter of fact, the parable that He gives right before that scrip-
ture that you go into is the parable of the talents, where you see
a business owner go away, and he leaves three employees in charge
and gives them each a bit of investment. And two of them turn
their investment into a profit, and one that turns it not into a prof-
it, does nothing with it, just sits on it, what does he call him?
[No response.]
Mr. CLOUD. You are a pastor, right?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Yes, I am, sir. I do not have that Scrip-
ture——
Mr. CLOUD. He calls him a wicked and a lazy servant.
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Mm-hmm.
Mr. CLOUD. And so, you know, scripturally speaking, God expects
us to do something with what He has given us. Now, Romans 13
talks about the purpose of government. You know, Scripture is re-
plete with there are different institutions, and each have a dif-
ferent thing, the primary job of raising our kids and taking care
of our families and the institution of the family. The government
has a different one. It says, ‘‘For the one in the authority is God’s
servant for your good, but if you do wrong, be afraid for the rulers
do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants serv-
ing as agents of wrath on the wrongdoer.’’ Would you say that
someone who commits fraud is doing wrong?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. We all are against fraud.
Mr. CLOUD. Right. Is fraud theft? Would you agree that that is
theft?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Yes.
Mr. CLOUD. As the Eighth Commandment says, ‘‘Thou shall not
steal.’’ Would you recommend that someone in your church go into
debt to give an offering in your church?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. No.
Mr. CLOUD. Okay. So, we have a massive program of fraud that
is being paid for by taxpayers, and it is not really us paying. It is
really our kids and our grandkids that are paying it, and yet we
continue to see this massive expansion, taken out of context of
what charity is being defined as. You know, it is interesting. I find
it odd that the left continues to bring up Matthew 25 because at
the very beginning of that, right before He goes in that scripture
that we talked with, it says, Matthew 25:32, ‘‘All the nations will
be gathered to Him, and He will separate the people from one an-
other as sheep and goats. He will put the sheep on His right and
His goats on the left, and the King will say to those on his right,
27
‘Come in, you are blessed of the Father, take your inheritance to
the kingdom,’ and those on His left, He will say, ‘Depart from me,
you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his an-
gels,’ ’’, you know.
So, I would caution those who begin to use Matthew 25 to do so
in the proper context, understanding that we have multiple biblical
institutions, and they each have a purpose.
Reverend TOLLGAARD. The context here is vast.
Mr. CLOUD. And, Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit the en-
tirety of Matthew 25 into the record.
Chairman COMER. Without objection——
Ms. RANDALL. Mr. Chairman, I also have a unanimous consent
item.
Chairman COMER. Does anyone object to——
Ms. RANDALL. Thank you. It is a Huffington Post——
Chairman COMER. Whoa, whoa, I did not recognize yet, Ms. Ran-
dall. Does anybody object to Mr. Cloud?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
Now, I will recognize Ms. Randall.
Ms. RANDALL. Thank you, Mr. Comer. I would like to enter into
the record an article from the Huffington Post yesterday, ‘‘Troops
Being Told Trump’s Been Anointed by Jesus to Cause Armageddon
in Iran.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
Well, we will do one. Let us recognize Mr. Khanna, and then I
will get Mr. Walkinshaw. Mr. Khanna from California.
Mr. KHANNA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walz, when
I went to Minneapolis and was at Alex Pretti’s memorial, I was
struck by the people there. I expected a lot of folks who were immi-
grants, and I expected folks who were children of immigrants who
looked brown like me, and there at the memorial were fourth and
fifth generation Minnesotans, most of them white Americans talk-
ing about how they face tyranny, how when they go to church, they
were being followed by ICE agents, when they would go to give a
meal to an immigrant, they were being followed by agents. And I
just had so much hope for our country, seeing them there, and I
want to thank Minnesota as a Californian, as someone grew up in
Pennsylvania, as an American, for their character, for their cour-
age, for what they have modeled in a multiracial democracy.
And my question for you, I mean, having served as a Congress-
man, a Governor, what is it about Minnesota that we can learn?
What is it that leads to this kind of inclusive feeling about immi-
grants and our Nation?
Governor WALZ. Well, thank you, Congressman, and thanks for
your work on many fronts. Look, I think Reverend Tollgaard
summed it up in getting at the heart of this. It is about the neigh-
borliness and the care, and left to our own devices, I am going to
make the case, Minnesota, and the way, I would remind folks,
states have to balance their budgets. We are AAA bond rated, one
of the states that is ranked the highest. We have a surplus, and
we also have the highest rainy day funds, one of the strongest pro-
tections. So, we understand fiscal responsibility, but we also under-
stand this caring, this neighborliness. People saw their neighbor. I
28
believe our politics can change with that idea of what the next-door
neighbor looks like.
Now, I will have to tell you, Mr. Khanna, I was deeply concerned
last year when the Vice President of the United States mentioned
he can understand why people would not want to live by somebody
who is not like them, which seems to go against our entire ethos
in Minnesota, whether it was the first wave of Norwegian and
Swedish immigrants that came to Minnesota, German immigrants
like my family, or whether it was Hmong coming after the Vietnam
War, or Somali and other East African immigrants to our country.
And I think it is this sense of working together.
There is a reason that we rank at the top in healthcare, we rank
at the top in personal incomes, we rank near the top in home own-
ership, we rank near the top in happiness because this idea that
we are all in it together and that we believe everybody should have
a chance. So, I think it is an ethos and it gets into our politics on
the secular side.
I believe as an elected official that I should not give a sermon,
but I should attempt to live one. And one of our politicians, Paul
Wellstone, talked about we all do better when we all do better, and
that is what we do. And I know that is true to a certain degree
in other states, but I see folks making the claim that, well, you
would not have any fraud if you just cut all these programs, if you
just zeroed them out. That is true. If we did not provide food for
our children, no one would steal from that program, but there
would also be a lot of hungry children. And what I am asking for
and acknowledging the accountability, we need to put program in-
tegrity in. So, I think it is a neighborliness, I think it is a historical
point about caring for your own, and I think it is a clear under-
standing that if your neighbor does better, you are going to do bet-
ter.
Mr. KHANNA. Well, thank you, Governor, and obviously fraud
matters and budgets matter, but what really matters right now in
this country are values, and I really appreciate your sharing that.
Attorney General Ellison, in the brief time I have, you know, I
just want to be clear about Somali Americas because when I was
growing up as an Indian American, anytime someone who was of
Indian origin did something wrong, every Indian American was
concerned, you know? And I do not think people understand that
if you are not a minority, how that makes you feel. I understand
there were 80 or 90 people who were Somali Americans who were
involved in this, but there are a hundred thousand Somali Ameri-
cans, at least in Minnesota. And statistically, from all the studies
I have seen, it is just factually untrue that Somali Minnesotans or
Somali Americans commit more fraud than white Americans or In-
dian Americans or other Americans, and could you just speak to
this because it is so dangerous. And I do not even think on the
other side, people are doing that on purpose, but if you are not an
immigrant, if you have not lived that or are a child of immigrants,
you do not know what that makes you feel. And can you talk about
the Somali experience in Minnesota?
Mr. ELLISON. You know, the reality is the Somali community in
Minnesota has brought great things to our state. They have opened
businesses. They have gotten professional degrees. They are great
29
neighbors who volunteer and help their neighbors. They have been
a benefit to our state. If you pick out a few people who have done
wrong, sure, you can do that, but I can guarantee you, you can do
that in any ethnic group at all in the State of Minnesota or any-
where in America.
Mr. KHANNA. Thank you. Thank you both.
Chairman COMER. All right. Before I recognize Mr. Higgins, I
will recognize Mr. Walkinshaw for a unanimous consent.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and, first, I just
wanted to make a quick correction. You said Secretary Noem is be-
fore the Homeland Security Committee today. That is not true. I
am a Member of the Committee. She was with us a couple months
ago, but she is not scheduled.
Chairman COMER. Okay.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. With that, I ask unanimous consent to enter
into the record of September 22, 2025, article from Reuters titled,
‘‘Trump Aid, Homan, Accepted $50,000 in Bribery Sting Oper-
ation,’’ which shows the Trump Administration is willing to cover
up blatant corruption of its officials.
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Higgins from Louisiana.
Mr. HIGGINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, ma’am,
thank you for being here today. Governor, when you took office,
this fraud had already begun. Is that an accurate assessment?
Governor WALZ. That is accurate, Mr. Higgins.
Mr. HIGGINS. Yes, sir. So, what we are trying to get our heads
wrapped around here as a Nation, and we are doing our best as
a Committee, I am quite certain, on both sides, to just sort of focus
our attention on what needs to be focused on. You had massive
fraud in the State of Minnesota, and when we started looking into
waste, fraud, abuse, and theft across the country, Minnesota sur-
faced as a wow moment for the entire country. So, naturally, you
know, we look, as a citizenry, to, well, who is in charge there, and
my old friend, Governor Walz is in charge, and the truth is, is
fraud had begun before you took office.
So, it is a reasonable question, Governor. You are noted in many
interviews—I am not going to go through them ad nauseum—you
were aware of this level of fraud and investigations, and yet, it
seems like nothing was done until the Trump Administration rees-
tablished itself in a second term and we began broad investigations
into waste, fraud, abuse, and theft, and Minnesota popped. I will
just give you a minute to respond?
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. HIGGINS. Why did not you do something sooner? I know some
people were put in jail, I know there were investigations, but there
was billions and billions and billions of dollars being stolen from
a pretty concentrated demographic in your community. And this
demographic is a significant political supporter for you and your
party, good, sir. So, I just ask you, please explain.
Governor WALZ. Yes. Well, thank you, Mr. Higgins, and I appre-
ciate your question in good faith on this. First of all, the issue of
billions, and I will keep saying this, one dollar is too many. That
number got thrown around. There is nothing behind it, but I will
30
acknowledge one dollar is too much. I will also note the character-
ization——
Mr. HIGGINS. I would say it is low. I would say it is low, but con-
tinue.
Governor WALZ. Well, there is nothing to support that, but, look,
we will pursue it and assume that that is the case. We will still
make the changes we need to make. The characterization that
nothing happened until the Trump Administration came in is sim-
ply not true. We worked with them in the first Administration
where USDA did not take action, and I think that is documented.
The fact is, starting in 2019, I went to the legislature asking
for——
Mr. HIGGINS. But you did not pause payments, Governor.
Governor WALZ. The pausing payments is——
Mr. HIGGINS [continuing]. And the criminal investigation, which
I am running out of time. I want to jump to, the way America sees
this, Governor Walz, respectfully, sir, is that this money just con-
tinued to flow. There was a high awareness of this waste, fraud,
abuse, and theft, like organized-crime-level theft, and it seemed to
be slow rolled, and nobody stopped the money from rolling in. The
money is gone, been remitted overseas.
Attorney General Ellison, you stated in your opening statement,
you sort of stated that your office only has direct jurisdiction over
Medicaid fraud. Did you say that in your opening statement?
Mr. ELLISON. I did say that.
Mr. HIGGINS. Okay. Well, you seem to indicate that you do not
have, like, criminal authority, but you do, don’t you? Under your
own law, you have an authority. If the county district attorney asks
you to get involved or if the Governor asks you to get involved,
then your office can take lead on any criminal investigations, spe-
cifically if you have particular staffing and capabilities within your
office because it is statewide to look into organized crime. Is that
not correct?
Mr. ELLISON. It is true——
Mr. HIGGINS. Okay. So, you have the authority to lead your
state’s effort to respond to this massive fraud at the state level
from within the healthcare realm where government money has
been stolen at very, very high levels, unprecedented levels in your
state. Are you leading that effort for the State of Minnesota?
Mr. ELLISON. Yes, we are aggressively prosecuting it.
Mr. HIGGINS. You are addressing it. Are you leading it? Are you
leading the effort?
Mr. ELLISON. We are leading the effort to prosecute Medicaid
fraud in Minnesota.
Mr. HIGGINS. I am not talking about Medicaid fraud. Do not hide
behind that. You have the authority to prosecute anything crimi-
nally that the Governor asks you to, and this thing is big. I am giv-
ing you an opportunity, sir. Are you leading the criminal investiga-
tive effort into this massive fraud across the board in the
healthcare spectrum in the State of Minnesota or not?
Mr. ELLISON. We are following the law, and the rest——
Mr. HIGGINS. You are not leading. You are not leading. I am
going to say, Mr. Chairman, that the Attorney General of the State
of Minnesota should resign. I yield.
31
Chairman COMER. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. Before
I recognize Mr. Frost, Mr. Walkinshaw, you were right. She is not
testifying in Homeland Security. Kristi Noem is testifying in Judi-
ciary. I knew she was here somewhere today, so you were right. I
misstated the wrong Committee.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Frost from Florida.
Mr. FROST. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and I have a unani-
mous consent called, ‘‘Fraud Focus: Why is Trump Granting Clem-
ency to Convicted Fraudsters?’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. FROST. Thank you all for being here. The whole world has
witnessed unprecedented and extreme immigration enforcement
tactics this year in Minnesota. After the murder of Renee Nicole
Good and before the murder of Alex Pretti, President Donald
Trump posted on Truth Social that ‘‘The day of reckoning and ret-
ribution is coming.’’ Governor Walz, the dictionary defines ‘‘retribu-
tion’’ as ‘‘punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a
wrong or criminal act.’’ Based on what we have seen play out in
Minneapolis, what is the problem with the President of the United
States directing agents to carry out retribution?
Governor WALZ. Well, yes. Thank you, and this is certainly trou-
bling because under the guise of fraud, which we all want to tackle,
we were subject to, as you saw, the largest invasion of a state by
the Federal Government, I do not know, in certainly any of our life-
times, and that infliction, to me, we are trying to figure it out.
Look, we will acknowledge, and we are fixing it in Minnesota, but
I am telling you, each of you are going to go back to your state,
and if some of you think you want to be Governor, you are going
to deal with this, and these folks keep moving.
The problem is, Congressman, this was about retribution. This
was about singling out Minnesota, and I am going to just name it.
I think it is singling out because our state works, and it provides
things for people and we care, and we mind our own business and
we respect our neighbors, and this retribution had nothing to do
with getting the worst of the worst. We know that. It had nothing
to do with stopping fraud, and we were subject, we being Minneso-
tans, for over ten weeks.
And I want to note just before, and I will yield back on this, Con-
gressman. I think this is important to note. The gentleman from
Illinois noted Midway Blitz, the damage it did to Chicago, there
were 500 agents on the ground in Chicago. Kristi Noem testified
yesterday there are still 650 in Minnesota. It is not over. This is
not ancient news. This is not looking like everybody moved on.
Minnesotans are still experiencing this.
Mr. FROST. It is bad for our communities and makes our people
less safe. It is terrorizing our streets.
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. FROST. Reverend, what has been happening in your commu-
nity when individuals try to record Federal agents?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Thank you for your question. Individuals
who have tried to record Federal agents have been told they can-
not. They have been asked for—taken pictures of their license
plates. They have been followed. They have been subject to fear
and intimidation tactics by ICE agents.
32
Mr. FROST. And one of the only reasons that, really, the world
knows about what is going on in Minnesota is because of our Con-
stitution and the right to be able to record law enforcement and
Federal agents. Those videos and the videotapes have been, in part,
the reason why we know what is going on. Trump Administration
officials have suggested that observing or identifying Federal
agents is ‘‘doxxing’’ or ‘‘assault.’’ We know Federal agents have fol-
lowed observers to their homes. We know protestors have been pep-
per sprayed. We know people have been violently detained who
were filming them. Without bystanders having cameras, who
knows how the murders of Renee Nicole Good and Alex Pretti by
ICE agents would have been handled by this Administration?
They have already tried to lie about these murders, even with
footage. After Alex Pretti was murdered, Stephen Miller said he
was ‘‘a domestic terrorist,’’ who tried to ‘‘assassinate Federal law
enforcement.’’ Kristi Noem said that he committed an act of domes-
tic terrorism, and the President of the United States said that he
was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist.
Reverend, the last thing I want to get to that I think is really
important, I grew up in the church, and I used to wear one of the
‘‘What Would Jesus Do’’ bracelets, mainly because I used to curse
a little too much when I was little, and then I would, like, snap
myself when I cursed. Either way, nowadays I think less about
what would Jesus do, and I think more about what would happen
to Jesus in this country. And I just wanted to give you a moment
to talk about what you think would happen to refugees, Mary and
Joseph, as they come to our border. Would they be separated from
their child? I mean, what does this look like?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Such a good point, Congressman, and, yes,
Jesus was himself a refugee as were His parents, and, yes, I fear
that they, too, would have experienced the harm and cruel treat-
ment that Minnesotans have been experiencing at the hands of our
government.
Mr. FROST. What do you say to the people who hide behind the
Bible and wrap themselves in the flag to say that what is going on
in our country right now with ICE terrorizing our communities,
ripping our neighbors—ripping our families apart, what would you
say to people like that?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. I think, again, Matthew 25, where are we
in this moment? It should be on the side of the least—the widow,
the orphan, the hungry, the homeless—and that as people of faith
and moral conscience, history will tell what side we stood on, but
our actions today will show true love of neighbor.
Mr. FROST. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. Before I recognize
Ms. Mace, Mr. Grothman, I believe, has a UC.
Mr. GROTHMAN. Yes. I would like to submit for the record some-
thing here called——
Chairman COMER. Hit the button.
Mr. GROTHMAN. I would like to submit for the record something
called, ‘‘Minnesota Financial and Compliance Report on Federally
Assisted Programs for the Year Ending June 30, 2024.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Mace from South Carolina.
33
Ms. MACE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning, gentle-
men. Thank you for being here today.
Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, you have presided
over one of the worst government fraud scandals in American his-
tory. This was money intended to feed hungry children, help kids
with autism, provide food and shelter and healthcare to the needy,
and more. You both allowed billions in these American taxpayer
dollars to be pillaged and plundered by Somali pirates. You knew
this was happening, you chose to do nothing about it, and in some
cases, you even enabled it. Attorney General Ellison, you even prof-
ited from this fraud by taking campaign donations from these So-
malians after pledging to help quash the investigation into them.
I find your behavior despicable.
My questions this morning, my first go to Governor Walz, and I
hope you learned some lessons from your last hearing with me on
the Oversight Committee. Have you learned anything since then?
Governor WALZ. I did, that if I did not speak up, two of my peo-
ple would be dead, Congresswoman, and I warned you.
Ms. MACE. Okay. Governor Walz, what is a woman? Have you
learned that lesson? Do you know what a woman is?
Governor WALZ. I am the Governor of Minnesota, Congressman.
Ms. MACE. Do you know what a woman is?
Governor WALZ. I am not here to be your prop for your obsession.
I taught middle school.
Ms. MACE. Okay. So, if you cannot define what woman is——
Governor WALZ. Your obsession——
Ms. MACE [continuing]. You certainly cannot define what fraud
is. If you cannot even define what a woman is, you cannot define
fraud. How much money was spent on autism in Minnesota in
2017, Governor?
Governor WALZ. I do not have those numbers in front of me, Con-
gresswoman.
Ms. MACE. Okay. Did you prepare for this hearing today?
Governor WALZ. I did.
Ms. MACE. Did you do any preparation for today?
Governor WALZ. I take Congress seriously.
Ms. MACE. Okay, and you have seen the numbers about autism
fraud in Minnesota. So, we are going to do some Minnesota math
with you today, okay? Are you ready? How much money was spent
in 2017 for autism in Minnesota? How much?
Governor WALZ. I do not know. I was not the Governor.
Ms. MACE. Okay. Did you not just say that you prepared for this
hearing today? One million dollars, okay? A quick Google search or
using your AI could tell you $1 million was spent. How much
money was spent on autism in Minnesota in 2024?
Governor WALZ. I do not have the number in front of me. As Gov-
ernor, I do not——
Ms. MACE. Were you Governor in 2024?
Governor WALZ. I was, but I am not the head of Health and
Human Services (HHS).
Ms. MACE. Okay. So, your excuse before that you did not know
what 2017 autism numbers were because you were not Governor,
and today you cannot answer the numbers about 2024 as Governor,
and you still said you prepared for this hearing today. It is unbe-
34
lievable. Three hundred and forty-three million dollars was spent
in 2024. What percent increase is that? From $1 million to $343
million, what percentage increase is that?
Governor WALZ. I am not here to be your prop. Go ahead and tell
me.
Ms. MACE. Wait, are you Governor of Minnesota or not?
Governor WALZ. Yes, I am. I am not prop for a Member of Con-
gress.
Ms. MACE. Okay. Well, when I am Governor of South Carolina,
you can sure as hell bet that I am going to know the math. The
math is 34,200-percent increase, an increase of 343 times what it
was in this time period. Do you know the number of children in
Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. I know that Minnesota ranked as a top three
state for children in the last year.
Ms. MACE. Okay. What is the total population in Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. Five-point-seven million.
Ms. MACE. Okay. What is the total population of children in Min-
nesota?
Governor WALZ. I do not have the number in front of me right
now.
Ms. MACE. Are you Governor of Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. I know 400,000 were cut out of healthcare last
week——
Ms. MACE. Okay. That is not——
Governor WALZ [continuing]. By the decisions you made.
Ms. MACE. Are you Governor of Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. I am.
Ms. MACE. And you do not know the number of children residing
in Minnesota? It is——
Governor WALZ. I do not have the specific number. It is 5.7 mil-
lion.
Ms. MACE. That is your total population.
Governor WALZ. What is the age, zero to five?
Ms. MACE. One-point-two——
Governor WALZ. Zero to 19?
Ms. MACE. You have approximately 1.2 million children in Min-
nesota.
Governor WALZ. What age?
Ms. MACE. I am not even Governor of South Carolina. Our popu-
lation in South Carolina is 5.5 million. We have approximately 1.1
million children under the age of 18 in my home state of South
Carolina, okay? As Governor, I expect you to know this informa-
tion. Thank god you are not Vice President of the United States.
Do you know approximately how many children in Minnesota are
autistic or on the spectrum?
Governor WALZ. No, I do not have that number.
Ms. MACE. Okay. Well, if you take the Centers for Disease Con-
trol and Prevention (CDC)’s roughly 1 in 36 kids are on the spec-
trum, we are talking about approximately 33,000 kids. In South
Carolina, it is about 31,000 or so. Do you know what this is per
child spending wise in the fraud for autistic kids in Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. Again, I am not here to be your prop. Go ahead
and tell us.
35
Ms. MACE. Is doing Minnesota math a prop? This is math. We
are talking about fraud. We are talking about——
Governor WALZ. Minnesota ranks at the top.
Ms. MACE. We are talking about money.
Governor WALZ. Where does South Carolina rank?
Ms. MACE. We are talking about money. That was supposed
to——
Governor WALZ. Where does South Carolina children rank on
healthiness?
Ms. MACE. These are my questions for you. It does not go the
other way around unless we are debating on the debate stage, and
we are not, but this is——
Governor WALZ. If you are asking questions about being Gov-
ernor, it does.
Ms. MACE. I am asking you questions about being Governor——
Governor WALZ. When you are Governor, you can come and
count.
Ms. MACE [continuing]. Of Minnesota, which you cannot answer.
This is basic math, and you cannot even answer.
Governor WALZ. I am not here to be your prop.
Ms. MACE. Do you even care about kids in Minnesota? Do you
care?
Governor WALZ. They rank near the top in every category. My
children are fed. My children are housed. My children have
healthcare.
Ms. MACE. Are autistic children are getting the services they
need in Minnesota.
Governor WALZ. My children have the best schools.
Ms. MACE. You clearly do not. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Chairman?
Chairman COMER. The gentlelady yields back.
Ms. MACE. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. Oh, Ms. Boebert? Yes.
Ms. MACE. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman COMER. Oh, Ms. Mace.
Ms. MACE. May I make my two motions?
Chairman COMER. Proceed.
Ms. MACE. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I move that the
Committee issue a subpoena to Hon. Pamela Jo Bondi to appear
before the Committee for a deposition regarding the Department’s
handling of the investigation of Jeffrey Epstein and his associates
in compliance with the Epstein Files Transparency Act.
Chairman COMER. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today’s hearing. The
Committee will now proceed with today’s hearing.
Ms. MACE. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee issue a
subpoena to the Office of congressional Workplace Rights for the
awards and settlements paid pursuant to Section 415 of the con-
gressional Accountability Act prior to December 12, 2018, with only
redactions allowable for the personally identifiable information of
victims, alleged victims, and witnesses.
Ms. BOEBERT. Hear, hear.
Ms. MACE. Thank you, ma’am.
36
Chairman COMER. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today’s hearing.
Ms. RANDALL. Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent.
Mr. GARCIA. Oh, Mr. Chairman, can I have one thing before——
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member.
Mr. GARCIA. Thank you. No, we would just like to see Mrs.
Mace’s motions in writing, which would be great.
Chairman COMER. Okay. Now, before I recognize Ms. Lee, Ms.
Randall?
Ms. RANDALL. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I ask unanimous consent
to enter into the record a December 11, 2025, article from the
Guardian titled, ‘‘Somalis Are the Scapegoat: Fear Rises as Trump
Targets Minneapolis Community,’’ which describes the Trump——
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Ms. RANDALL [continuing]. Administration’s xenophobic attacks.
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair recognizes Ms. Lee from Pennsylvania.
Ms. LEE. Thank you, Mr. Chair. For the past few months, Demo-
crats on this Committee and in the Senate have been holding hear-
ings on the unconstitutional actions of the Trump Administration.
So, we have heard from in that time whistleblowers, industry ex-
perts, and survivors of abuses of Federal agents. They spoke about
warrantless searches that they have been subjected to, including
Federal agents bursting into their homes with guns. They spoke
about being shot at and dragged out of their cars, and then, you
know, being made to look like they were actually the perpetrators.
They spoke about Federal agents’ use of masks and unmarked ve-
hicles, and the efforts of these agents to hide their identity to es-
cape any sort of accountability. And we heard from the brother of
Renee Good, who was murdered by ICE agents in Minneapolis.
That is what oversight looks like, not two hearings on fraud in one
single state, which is not even the worst instance of fraud out
there, though we all here agree that we should target fraud.
Republicans have dragged Governor Walz in again to demonize
and target his state because he is a Democratic Governor and he
is implementing Democratic policies. Republicans took a legitimate
investigation, and as per usual, has made it a circus. Now, we have
just a random guy lurking around childcare centers trying to get
into buildings with children as the fraud vigilante. The Somali
community has been vilified and made to feel unsafe, and Federal
benefits are being cut to Minnesota and other Democrat-led states.
Trump and his Administration also used this investigation as a jus-
tification for an immigration enforcement push that has created
chaos and fueled violence, and resulted in the death of American
citizens.
Reverend Tollgaard, as a Minnesotan, do you feel that these
oversight hearings and the Trump Administration’s fixation on
fraud in Minnesota has made anyone safer in your state?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. No, they have not.
Ms. LEE. Republicans have been touting alleged fraud in
childcare centers and the need to protect children, but since the im-
migration enforcement push, have kids been able to be kids? Have
they felt comfortable going to school or playing out in public with
each other or with their friends?
37
Reverend TOLLGAARD. They have not been safe. They have not
been able to go to school, to be in playgrounds, to be in libraries
and places you would normally expect to find them.
Ms. LEE. Are you worried about the long-term impact of being
surrounded by violence and uncertainty of what it could have on
these children?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. I am deeply concerned about that, and I
know that their teachers and their parents are as well.
Ms. LEE. You were arrested earlier this year while protesting
ICE agents and deportations. Why was it important for you and
other clergy members to speak out against Trump’s Administra-
tion’s actions in Minnesota and elsewhere?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Thank you for your question. I was ar-
rested along with 99 other faith leaders in Minnesota, many of
whom could be here today, and we were compelled to action to
stand on the side of the most vulnerable in our communities and
those who have been facing enormous cruelty and unfair actions on
the hands of ICE. And we needed to stand alongside them, as have
many others in our faith traditions in history. We stand along with
that great cloud of witnesses.
Ms. LEE. I want to thank you for coming in today and for, of
course, having the courage to stand up to the attacks against your
community. This, as we can all see, was never truly about fraud.
It is a part of a greater effort by Trump and Republicans to gut
social services, roll back civil rights, to villainize and make others
out of people who they do not want to have and enjoy the same
civil liberties and rights as others in this Nation. They want to
strip away and have been stripping away healthcare and education,
childcare funding that millions of people rely on. This investigation
and these actions have only been used to harm, not to help people.
And rest assured, this will not stop in Minnesota just as it did not
stop in Chicago before that or LA before that. This is a blatant at-
tempt, blatant authoritarian grab that the Trump Administration
has been persistent in. It will come to all shores if we do not all
take a collective stance.
But more than that, urging my colleagues in the Republican cau-
cus or conference to take up their job and their test as a co-equal
branch of government. We do not serve as the lapdogs, as the cult
followers of Donald Trump, of a President. When there are abuses
or overreach, it is supposed to be us that takes a stand. And I
would hope that at some point in the 119th Congress, some Repub-
lican with a gavel will do so. I thank you all for your time, and I
yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Donalds from Florida.
Mr. DONALDS. Thank you, Chairman. Governor Walz, when did
you first receive notice of potential fraud in Minnesota’s social serv-
ices programs?
Governor WALZ. Social service programs in general, we knew
that there was issues with the Child Care Assistance Program
(CCAP) program as early as 2012, and my first days in office, we
started taking action.
Mr. DONALDS. But as Governor, when were you first notified?
Governor WALZ. Before I took office.
38
Mr. DONALDS. All right. Governor Walz, former Department of
Human Services Commissioner, Tony Laurie, testified that you
were aware in early 2019 of fraud in two Department of Human
Services-administered programs. Is this statement accurate?
Governor WALZ. Not that I recall. I am not sure what he is
speaking about.
Mr. DONALDS. You do not remember this meeting or this notifica-
tion?
Governor WALZ. No, not specifically, I do not.
Mr. DONALDS. In March 2019, your Office of Legal Affairs re-
ported $5 to $6 million in alleged Childcare Assistance Program
fraud. In April 2019, it was also reported that the Department of
Human Services lacked proper integrity controls to control fraud.
Were you aware of these reports?
Governor WALZ. Not specific reports, but because of that, my of-
fice, we put forward actions to address them starting in 2019.
Mr. DONALDS. Is it correct that your Administration was aware
of the Feeding Our Future fraud as early as of May 2020 based
upon regular discussions about program irregularities?
Governor WALZ. I believe that is correct with the agency, the De-
partment of Education, and then going back to USDA.
Mr. DONALDS. I am going to go back. Was your office notified of
these fraud allegations?
Governor WALZ. Not me specifically, that they are handled inter-
nally in the Administration. It happens every day.
Mr. DONALDS. Who was notified, Governor Walz?
Governor WALZ. The agencies do their work, the commissioners,
and then if someone in my office was notified, they let me know.
As Governor, you know, I make 50 decisions a day. I said, I did
this job for 12 years. I make more decisions in a day.
Mr. DONALDS. Governor Walz.
Governor WALZ. So, someone was maybe notified, but the agen-
cies are the ones that take the action.
Mr. DONALDS. May I ask the next question? We have it under
sworn testimony in the Oversight Committee that your former
Chief of Staff was notified directly by these various commissioners
about the fraud in Minnesota.
Governor WALZ. That could be correct.
Mr. DONALDS. So, are you saying that your Chief of Staff did not
notify you?
Governor WALZ. I am saying I do not recall whether he did at
that time or not, but we took action. So, I am assuming when we
put our budgets together, based on that, we put a package together
for that legislative session.
Mr. DONALDS. Let us talk about budgets, Governor Walz. Feed-
ing Our Future went from $307,000 in 2018 to $199 million in
2021. Are you aware of this increase in budgetary costs from Feed-
ing Our Future?
Governor WALZ. Not specifically, but I know it increased during
the pandemic.
Mr. DONALDS. The Housing Stabilization Services went from $27
million in 2021 to $105 million in 2024. Are you aware of this in-
crease, Governor Walz?
Governor WALZ. Not specifically, but I know it increased.
39
Mr. DONALDS. Autism centers went from $24 million in 2019 to
$342 million in 2024. Are you aware of that?
Governor WALZ. Not specifically again, but yes, we know the
budgets increased.
Mr. DONALDS. Integrated Community Supports went from $4.6
million in 2021 to $170 million in 2024. Are you aware of that?
Governor WALZ. Again, not specifically on the numbers, but it is
the budget.
Mr. DONALDS. Governor Walz, you have to submit a budget to
your legislature every single year like every Governor has to do. If
you are not aware of these increases, what was your office doing?
Governor WALZ. Every one is balanced. My budget is about $72
billion. It impacts 23 agencies, six million people.
Mr. DONALDS. Florida’s budget is $115 billion, sir, but what were
you doing if you are seeing program increases like this amid allega-
tions of fraud in your state?
Governor WALZ. Action was being taken on these starting back
in 2019 if it was seen.
Mr. DONALDS. Can you describe the action that was taken in
2019?
Governor WALZ. Sure. In 2019, I will go to the first things that
we did on childcare assistance. We lowered the standards on proof
of administrative fraud disqualification. We increased the——
Mr. DONALDS. Whoa, whoa, you lowered the standards?
Governor WALZ. We lowered the standards for proof of adminis-
trative fraud. The standards where we had to prove it were so
high, it was impossible to try and do it, so we lowered what it took
to show that fraud was happening.
Mr. DONALDS. And what did you do with the results of lowering
the standards to prove fraud? What did you do?
Governor WALZ. We put 79 people in prison and——
Mr. DONALDS. But Governor Walz——
Governor WALZ [continuing]. We continued to prosecute——
Mr. DONALDS [continuing]. The fraud continued to increase. It in-
creased under your tenure. Do you acknowledge that?
Governor WALZ. Did the numbers increase? Yes, and I tell you,
when you catch people and prosecute them, it shows up that the
fraud increase. I would tell you, Congressman——
Mr. DONALDS. But if it——
Governor WALZ [continuing]. Just because you care——
Mr. DONALDS. But if it increases——
Governor WALZ [continuing]. About fraud does not mean——
Mr. DONALDS. I got 50 seconds, Governor, and I do not want to
get into a fight with you, but let me move quickly to the Lieutenant
Governor. Peggy Flanagan is your Lieutenant Governor. Is that
correct?
Governor WALZ. That is correct.
Mr. DONALDS. Does the Lieutenant Governor go on the ticket
with you, or are they elected by themselves on a ballot in the State
of Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. It is on a ticket.
Mr. DONALDS. It is on a ticket. Peggy Flanagan essentially works
for you.
40
Governor WALZ. She is a constitutional officer. She is on the tick-
et, but she is independent as a constitutional officer in Minnesota.
Mr. DONALDS. You could ask for her resignation at any time. Is
that correct? That is typically how it works with lieutenant Gov-
ernors.
Governor WALZ. Yes, but she is a constitutional officer. I do not
believe that has happened in Minnesota.
Mr. DONALDS. Peggy Flanagan, there are accusations that she
was intimidating whistleblowers. There was a meeting on April 12
of 2024 where she went on stage and publicly denounced whistle-
blowers in the State of Minnesota, calling them losers in their
mother’s basements. Is this the type of treatment that your Admin-
istration allows——
Governor WALZ. I am not familiar——
Mr. DONALDS [continuing]. For whistleblowers in Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. I am not familiar with that.
Mr. DONALDS. Are you aware of any intimidation of whistle-
blowers in the State of Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. No.
Mr. DONALDS. There are 30 whistleblowers who have given let-
ters to this Committee on the record saying that they have wit-
nessed, they have been subject to intimidation by your Administra-
tion because they were trying to stop the fraud in Minnesota.
Governor WALZ. I encouraged them to go to the OLA and the
independent sources of Minnesota that are open to that.
Mr. DONALDS. The OLA. You are the Governor.
Governor WALZ. No, the OLA is the independent officer that——
Mr. DONALDS. But sir, you are the Governor. Why didn’t you
take responsibility for what is going on in your state?
Governor WALZ. We do take responsibility. I am telling you, I
have no knowledge——
Mr. DONALDS. But you lost billions of dollars of American tax-
payer money in the process, Governor Walz.
Governor WALZ. We prosecuted these people, Congressmen. I
think Florida has fraud.
Mr. DONALDS. I would argue that the prosecutions have largely
come from the Federal offices——
Governor WALZ. That is not how this works.
Mr. DONALDS [continuing]. As opposed to the state offices.
Governor WALZ. You know what we refer to——
Mr. DONALDS. What do you mean that is not how it works? That
is exactly how works.
Governor WALZ. They are partners. They partner together at the
Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (BCA).
Mr. DONALDS. Is the Attorney General allowed to investigate
fraud and prosecute fraud in the State of Minnesota without the
Department of Justice, federally? Are you allowed to do that, Attor-
ney General Ellison?
Mr. ELLISON. Yes, and we do prosecute Medicaid fraud all the
time. We have prosecuted over 300 people since I have been——
Mr. DONALDS. Apparently not enough because Minnesota is rife
with it. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentlemen yields back. The Chair recog-
nizes Ms. Randall from Washington State.
41
Ms. RANDALL. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Governor
Walz, Attorney General Ellison, and Reverend Tollgaard, for being
here to shed light on the impacts of the Trump Administration’s
harmful actions in Minnesota, and, frankly, to be pulled into some
really ridiculous question lines.
The escalation in attacks from this Administration on social serv-
ices programs in Democratically led states like Minnesota on the
heels of the ‘‘Big, Ugly Law’s’’ billions of dollars of Medicaid cuts
last summer is clearly devastating our communities. Do I believe
Congress has a responsibility to reduce opportunities for misuse
and fraud where we have seen evidence that it exists? Sure. That
is why I introduced the Federal Program Integrity and Fraud Pre-
vention Act, a bipartisan bill that would prevent individuals who
have been convicted of fraud from applying for Federal contracts.
Mr. Chairman, if you are serious about addressing fraud, I would
love to see this Committee hold a hearing on my bill, which was
developed based on feedback from nonpartisan Inspectors General,
whose entire job is overseeing the appropriate administration of
government programs.
And let me remind my friends on the other side about Mis-
sissippi, a state with Republican leadership where over $77 million
in Temporary Assistance For Needy Families funds were misused.
One of the perpetrators of that fraud? former NFL quarterback,
Brett Favre, who received $1.1 million from the Government for
speeches he never made. Congressional Republicans’ response was
to invite Favre to come testify before the Ways and Means Com-
mittee about how we should strengthen oversight of Federal wel-
fare programs because I am sure he had some good advice about
that. Meanwhile, my Republican colleagues are villainizing entire
minority populations because of the actions of a few. We have a
word for that.
I also have a lot of Republican colleagues here who talk about
being fiscally responsible and reigning in Federal spending. Again,
I also believe we should be fiscally responsible, but to me, fiscally
responsible governing means that we invest in transformative uni-
versal healthcare that saves us money in the long term, childcare
policies that give the budget back $7 on the dollar spent in long-
term costs for the children who benefit; policies that will actually
save our country money in the long run and contribute to a strong
society and strong economy, not slashing social services, not
defunding hospitals, not eliminating childcare programs.
Governor Walz, why do you think the Trump Administration is
so obsessed with fraud in Minnesota when its own agencies have
found other states with even worse problems?
Governor WALZ. Well, it is a question we are all asking, Con-
gresswoman, and I would like to say, and thank you for this. I just
want to make sure I go on record, Chairman Comer, in condemning
the slurs toward my Somali community that the gentlewoman from
South Carolina made. Thank you.
Look, Congresswoman, I do not know. I think it has been pretty
clear the president does not like me personally. I think he con-
tinues to tell lies about our electoral system, claiming that he has
won all three times when he lost all three times. I think he has
people around him who were trying to find quotas around immigra-
42
tion, and they saw a perfect storm, if you will, that included some
Somali folks. You know, if we are going to condemn folks, there are
no Somali folks in the Epstein files, things like that, we know, but
I do not know. It is an obsession, and I come back to it again. I
think it is because we are so ideologically opposed to making chil-
dren go hungry, people go unhoused. We invest in education, we in-
vest in research, and we believe everybody has a place. And so, I
think it is just personal about how we do business.
Ms. RANDALL. Thank you so much. I could not agree more. There
are also reports that as many as 50 prosecutors in the U.S. Attor-
ney’s Office for Minnesota have quit in the last 12 months. They
used to have 70 prosecutors. Now some reports say they have as
few as 17. Many of those who left include the very same prosecu-
tors who were prosecuting the Feeding Our Future fraudsters. How
has this flight impacted your efforts to fight fraud in Minnesota?
Governor WALZ. Well, it is made it very difficult. And I think for
all of my friends on the Republican side, we welcomed the Repub-
lican folks, the attorneys over at the U.S. Attorney’s Office who
were good at helping us as partners. We turned this over to them.
They prosecuted. They put people in jail. They are not there now.
There is nobody doing this. And I will remind this Committee, the
U.S. attorney was in front of a Federal judge yesterday being
threatened with jail because of what is going on in that office. And
from my perspective, who is prosecuting trafficking, drugs, murder,
and fraud?
And so, we want them. If you could do anything, Chairman, call
the President and tell him to put some U.S. attorneys over there
to prosecute fraud. I will sign on with you.
Ms. RANDALL. Thank you, Governor, and thank you, Mr. Chair-
man.
Chairman COMER. The Chair now recognizes Chairman Burchett
from Tennessee.
Mr. BURCHETT. You say that with disrespect in your voice, Mr.
Chairman.
Governor, you mentioned that President Trump lost all three
times. I believe that is an error, and that is a conspiracy theorist.
I believe you have spoken in error there, but——
Governor WALZ. No, he lost Minnesota all three times.
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay. Okay. Well, I am glad you corrected that
because——
Governor WALZ. He does not agree with that, though, Chair——
Mr. BURCHETT [continuing]. We are good. We are good. Have you
ever used taxpayer funds directly or indirectly to take action
against individuals suspected of disclosing potential wrongdoing
within a government entity?
Governor WALZ. I have not.
Mr. BURCHETT. Well, almost 30 whistleblowers accused you and
your administration of retaliation. Would you say that is a con-
spiracy then?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to what they said. I can tell you
it did not happen.
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay. Are you aware of reports alleging state of-
ficials have engaged in retaliation against whistleblowers?
Governor WALZ. No, I am not. Not specifically, no.
43
Mr. BURCHETT. You are not aware of that when 30 have come
forward? Okay.
Governor WALZ. I am not. I believe these are internet.
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay.
Governor WALZ. We have options. The OLA, we have inde-
pendent folks that they can come to, and I encourage them. It is
against the law in Minnesota. I have executive orders——
Mr. BURCHETT. It is against the law here, but it does not stop
it. What actions have you taken to protect whistleblowers in your
state, sir, and has anyone faced consequences for retaliation? If so,
who?
Governor WALZ. Well, in Minnesota we have a nonpartisan Office
of Legislative Auditor. We have zero tolerance. The Minnesota
Whistleblower Protection Act prohibits retaliation. I signed an ex-
ecutive order in 2025, added protections. The law expands and
clarifies protections around what reports are protected and who can
report issues. They are strong. When I was here, I was an advocate
for the Inspectors General (IG)s, and I think that is well known in
my 12 years here that we need them.
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay. Well, a whistleblower told our office that
her supervisor at the Minnesota Department of Health and Human
Services threatened to make her job difficult, and the supervisor
that did that later received a promotion. Would that surprise you,
and can you confirm if this account is accurate?
Governor WALZ. No, I cannot confirm it, and I do not make HR
decisions. But I am being very clear about this, there is a zero tol-
erance for whistleblower retaliation in Minnesota.
Mr. BURCHETT. How can any agency combat fraud when retalia-
tion goes unchecked?
Governor WALZ. It makes it more difficult. That is why we do not
allow it.
Mr. BURCHETT. Do you think that any of the fraudsters sent sto-
len funds to Somali terrorist groups?
Governor WALZ. Pardon me?
Mr. BURCHETT. Do you think that any of the Somali folks that
received funds sent any of the stolen funds to Somali terrorist
groups?
Governor WALZ. There have been reports done and investigations
done on this, and I do not believe there is any proof to support
that.
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay. Mr. Attorney General, do you recall a De-
cember 2021 meeting with individuals connected to Feeding Our
Future, during which you stated there will be cases that you know,
‘‘I want you to feel free to call me directly, and then I call up and
like, ‘what is the problem,’ and let me tell you, just letting the in-
quiry from AG is sometimes enough to make people knock it off.’’
Mr. ELLISON. Congressman, yes, I was at a meeting like that. Let
me just say that I have reported on this numerous times. I have
been in front of a Committee in the Senate. I am here today. I was
in front of a state House Committee. This is a widely discussed
matter, and I have been fully transparent, but let me just be clear.
These people were fraudsters as everyone here agrees. They were
liars. They lied to me, they lied to courts, they lied to everyone, and
I would like you to know that I do meet with community meetings
44
all the time. I mean, it is a regular part of my job. Nothing unusual
about me meeting with people. Nothing unusual about me telling
people if you got a problem, you know, my office will try to help
you, but these people were liars and fraudsters.
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay.
Mr. ELLISON. The main thing I would like you to know is that
we are down so many Federal prosecutors that it has put our abil-
ity to hold these people accountable, definitely at a low.
Mr. BURCHETT. Yes, sir. Eight hour days do get long. In Sep-
tember 2022, you issued a press release titled, ‘‘For Two Years, At-
torney General Ellison’s Office Has Held Feeding Our Future Ac-
countable.’’ Does that sound familiar?
Mr. ELLISON. Thank you for the question, Congressman. Let me
tell you, the Department of Education——
Mr. BURCHETT. Does it sound familiar or not, sir?
Mr. ELLISON. It certainly does, and the Department of——
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay. How much did you receive in campaign
contributions from individuals charged in the Feeding Our Future
case?
Mr. ELLISON. Every campaign donation I got was returned to all
authorities.
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay. Everybody knows about the $250 million
in fraud for Feeding Our Future case, which was prosecuted by the
U.S. Attorney’s Office in Minnesota, but there were just two other
large site sponsors that you settled with instead of prosecuting
them. Why did you not prosecute Partners in Quality Care or the
Gar Gaar Family Services?
Mr. ELLISON. Because my office does not have jurisdiction to
prosecute in those cases.
Mr. BURCHETT. Well, you allowed them to dissolve, but no one
was prosecuted, and Partners in Quality Care (PIQC)——
Mr. ELLISON. They still may be, Congressman.
Mr. BURCHETT. Sir, PIQC is accused of $300 million in fraud as
significant assets, yet no charges and no attempts to recover tax-
payer money. I will remind you all, $19 billion. I was a state legis-
lator and I can remember when our state budget was $19 billion.
This is money that has been stolen and it will not be recovered,
and you all are to blame, and every dadgum one of you all ought
to step down. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. Before I recognize
Mr. Bell, Mr. Donalds, you have a UC?
Mr. DONALDS. Yes, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the
record an op-ed from the Minnesota Star Tribune authored by Jim
Nobles, the former Minnesota legislative auditor, dated December
29, 2025.
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Bell from St. Louis.
Mr. BELL. Thank you, Chair, Ranking Member, and our wit-
nesses for being here today. My Republican colleagues have called
this hearing today once again to divert the public’s attention from
the dangerous threats that they themselves have created for the
American people. They have chosen to turn a blind eye to the esca-
lating public safety crisis in Minneapolis, Minnesota, fueled by the
deployment of ICE agents under the direction of President Trump.
45
On December 1, 2025, this Administration launched Operation
Metro Surge under the false pretense of promoting public safety in
Minneapolis. Since then, we have witnessed several deaths, includ-
ing the brutal killings of Renee Good on January 7, 2026, and Alex
Pretti only a few short weeks later on January 24. News reports
state that in 2026 alone, there have already been eight additional
deaths at the hands of Federal agents. We are now living in one
of the deadliest periods on record with more deaths carried out by
ICE agents in recent years than at any time since 2004. Under this
Administration’s direction, masked agents have inflicted trauma
that will remain in these communities and neighborhoods. There is
a lack of accountability and justice. Survivors’ stories have been
suppressed, false narratives have been told, and Federal officials
have refused to cooperate, even going so far as to block state inves-
tigators from accessing evidence.
AG Ellison, as the chief legal officer for the State of Minnesota,
what level of cooperation would you expect from the Federal Gov-
ernment during an investigation of this magnitude?
Mr. ELLISON. Congressman, I would expect the kind of coopera-
tion that we are used to experiencing. I mean, in all of the time
that I have even been a lawyer, which is now 36 years, state-Fed-
eral cooperation was exactly how we did business all the time. We
are very proud and we love working with our FBI agents, DEA
agents, ATF agents. It is a regular thing. This is what is strange
and unusual.
Mr. BELL. And has the lack of cooperation and unclear commu-
nication from the Federal agencies undermine the investigations
into the death of Renee Good and Alex Pretti?
Mr. ELLISON. It certainly has. We have been denied access to
critical evidence in this case that we would need to evaluate this
matter based on a use of force analysis.
Mr. BELL. Which is befuddling to me because as a former pros-
ecutor, I have led serious and thorough investigations in pursuit of
justice. I can say that what we have seen by DHS, DOJ, and the
FBI is the complete opposite of a detailed and thorough investiga-
tion into the wrongdoing of ICE officials. And let us be clear: de-
spite what President Trump would have the public believe, those
agents remain on the streets of Minnesota. These actions are not
isolated incidents. We have seen similar events taking place across
the Nation in Illinois, North Carolina, California, to name a few.
We have heard directly from survivors about the cruelty and mis-
treatment they endured by ICE agents, and we have seen the indi-
viduals appointed under President Trump to head these operations
evade justice and not be held accountable for their actions.
We cannot stand by and allow this to continue. Those responsible
for these actions must be held accountable and survivors and their
families deserve answers and justice, which is why, Mr. Chair, I
move that pursuant to Clause (ii), Subsection (k)(6) of Rule XI, the
Committee shall subpoena Greg Bovino to testify before the House
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
Chairman COMER. A motion has been made. The Committee will
hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today’s hearing. The
Committee will now proceed with today’s hearing.
46
Mr. BELL. I yield the remainder of my time to the Ranking Mem-
ber.
Mr. GARCIA. I would like just to provide just a few of that time
to the Reverend, who wanted to make some additional comments
about something that was said earlier in the hearing.
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Thank you.
Mr. GARCIA. You have 30 seconds.
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Thank you. Just following up on Matthew
25. I am so proud of the countless ways that Minnesotans, Chris-
tians, and people of other faiths and moral conscience have stepped
forward to show love of neighbor and to come alongside those who
are suffering most in this time. There is no greater example of liv-
ing out the teachings of Christ and caring for the least among us
than what we have seen in Minnesota these past few months.
Mr. GARCIA. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. Before I recognize
Mr. Perry, I have a unanimous consent to enter into the record an
article from Alpha News where U.S. Attorney Rosen stated, ‘‘We
have more than adequate staffing to carry out the fraud. We have
been reinforced in dramatic numbers by the Department of Justice
and by other departments of the Federal Government.’’ He also
said fraud investigations are increasing in pace: ‘‘Fraud prosecu-
tions you will see are going to be dramatically increasing in pace.’’
According to Rosen, if you are committing fraud in the State of
Minnesota, it is really not a good time to be doing so. I just wanted
to enter that article into the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania.
Mr. PERRY. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Governor, good to see you
again. You are an Army guy. I am an Army guy. What is, as Gov-
ernor, one of your primary responsibilities is keep your citizens
safe, right? I think we could probably agree on that. We might not
agree on much, but we could probably agree on that, and I heard
you talk earlier about working with Federal partners. There has a
lot been discussed here about fraud of various kinds, but I want to
talk about something that seems to me, quite honestly, a derelic-
tion of duty or certainly a huge lapse in judgment. Now, were Gov-
ernor in October 2023, right?
Governor WALZ. That is correct, Congressman.
Mr. PERRY. I just want to make sure we are on the same page
here, and you signed the Minnesota Driver’s Licenses for All Act.
Is that correct?
Governor WALZ. That is correct.
Mr. PERRY. That is correct, right? So, now, look, I am not going
to hold you to knowing every single thing in these laws. There are
a lot of paragraphs and wording, and so on and so forth, but under
your law that you signed, it prohibits the disclosure of information
contained in the license or identification card applications for en-
forcing Title VIII of the United States Code. Just to make sure, are
you familiar with what Title VIII deals with?
Governor WALZ. I am not specifically.
Mr. PERRY. Okay. So, it deals with immigration, nationality, and
aliens. Particularly, the law that you signed eliminates the require-
ment for Social Security numbers or proof of lawful presence, and
47
furthermore, it is a violation under Section 14–4 of your code for
anybody to research that. As a matter of fact, immigration status
is classified as private under Section 13.18. So, literally, the Fed-
eral Government, your partner, as you said, we work with our Fed-
eral partners, cannot use that driver’s license information regard-
ing people that are here illegally. Now——
Governor WALZ. I do not understand the connection between the
driver’s license and the immigration piece, I guess.
Mr. PERRY. Well, let me make the connection for you. According
to the Secretary of Transportation, one-third of Minnesota’s non-
domiciled commercial driver’s licenses were issued illegally. Were
issued illegally. Do you have a video ready to play for me? Can you
play it now? This is what happens, Mr. Governor. This is what
happens when you issue driver’s licenses to people illegally.
[Video shown.]
Mr. PERRY. And crossing over there, and thank God. I do not
know how much that thing weighs, 60–80,000 pounds, 60 miles an
hour. You can cut the video. He was licensed in your state under
a law that you signed that precludes Federal officials, your Federal
partners as you call them, from determining whether they are here
illegally. That guy that was driving that truck could not pass the
test. He did not pass the test out on the road. There is another
video—I am not going to play it—but there is another video of a
guy here illegally turning a truck like that around in the middle
of a highway where people lost their lives because they were de-
capitated when they went underneath it. That is what happened.
So, my question for you is, this should be easy.
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. PERRY. What are you going to do to rectify the law that you
signed that allows people here illegally to get a commercial driver’s
license (CDL)? That tape was in Missouri, not in your state.
Governor WALZ. Okay.
Mr. PERRY. Look, if you do not want to protect the people in your
state, I guess that is your business and the business of your voters,
but that driver was driving in Missouri. And if he would have hit
a bunch of people, quite honestly, to me, you could have been held
liable.
Governor WALZ. Yes. Well, Congressman, first of all, Minnesota
ranks in the top three safest states by highway data from your own
departments.
Mr. PERRY. Highway data.
Governor WALZ. The data from the Department of Transpor-
tation for highway safety.
Mr. PERRY. Yes. Right.
Governor WALZ. We have the third. We want everybody on our
roads to be licensed and to be insured.
Mr. PERRY. So, are you saying based on that, that you are okay
with——
Governor WALZ. I am not okay with that. I am not okay with you
or I speeding. I am not okay with Driving Under the Influence
(DUI)s.
Mr. PERRY. But you signed this law that allows for that. You
signed it, and you are going to do nothing about it?
48
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak specifically on the CDL. What I
can tell you is legally, we believe that——
Mr. PERRY. I can. I referenced your law.
Governor WALZ. Everybody——
Mr. PERRY. It says, ‘‘House of Representatives, State of Min-
nesota,’’ and I know there are a lot of words here.
Governor WALZ. I do not know the specific case. I just know our
roads are safer.
Mr. PERRY. But I referenced exactly the sections that allow for
this to happen and preclude Federal enforcement regarding immi-
gration and the illegality of people receiving CDLs under your
state’s provisions.
Governor WALZ. Driver safety and immigration are two separate
things. Had that been a citizen or not, it is still tragic, it is wrong,
and we should not do it. What I am telling you is in Minnesota,
we have the third safest roads in the country based on the things
we do.
Mr. PERRY. So, you are good. So, you are good with this practice.
Governor WALZ. I am not good with that, or with people——
Mr. PERRY. Well, what are you good with, because that is what
is happening under your law.
Governor WALZ. Well, I cannot speak to the specific on if it is an
outlier. We give licenses to people who then eventually——
Mr. PERRY. That happened
Governor WALZ [continuing]. We give licenses to people who then
eventually——
Mr. PERRY. Governor, do you know——
Governor WALZ [continuing]. Break the law after we issue them
a license.
Mr. PERRY [continuing]. That happened last month. This is
March. That happened a week and a half ago. Are you familiar?
Governor WALZ. Yes, that is wrong, and, look, I——
Mr. PERRY. But you are not going to do anything.
Governor WALZ. Sure, we are going to do things.
Mr. PERRY. What are you going to do?
Governor WALZ. There are traffic laws against them.
Mr. PERRY. What are we going to do?
Governor WALZ. Was this person arrested?
Mr. PERRY. I sure hope so.
Governor WALZ. That is good.
Mr. PERRY. But he was licensed in your state under your law
that you signed about a year and a half ago.
Governor WALZ. Every day we give licenses and people speed, so
we ticket them and try and stop that. What I am telling you is, I
do not understand the connection between licensing——
Mr. PERRY. He is here illegally, he cannot read, and he got a li-
cense under your provisions——
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to the specifics.
Mr. PERRY [continuing]. And he is driving all across the country
and periling everybody else. That is the connection.
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to that——
Mr. PERRY. Thank you. Chair, I yield.
49
Governor WALZ [continuing]. Because the data shows Minnesota
is one of the safest driving states in the country. I do not know
what to tell you.
Mr. PERRY. They are all in other states driving, apparently.
Governor WALZ. I do not know, sir.
Chairman COMER. Thank you, Mr. Perry. The Chair now recog-
nized Mr. Min from California.
Ms. SIMON. I am first, sir.
Chairman COMER. Oh, you are next? Okay.
Ms. SIMON. Is that okay, sir?
Chairman COMER. I did not have it on the list, but.
Ms. SIMON. Oh, I showed up——
Chairman COMER. I will yield to the Ranking Member.
Mr. MIN. You can go ahead. I do not care.
Ms. SIMON. You sure? Okay.
Chairman COMER. Who is next?
Mr. MIN. You can go ahead. I will let her go next.
Ms. SIMON. I was tardy. I thank you, Mr. Min. I thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Good afternoon and thank you, witnesses, for coming today. So,
what I have heard so far is Feeding Our Future, $250 million sto-
len, 50 convictions secured, the prosecution was working, then the
Administration froze $10 billion in childcare across five states. No
evidence, no legal authority, no statutory process. A Federal court
ruled it unlawful and unconstitutional within 48 hours. Thank you,
Attorney General Ellison and Attorney General Bonta, for that
work. Then the lead prosecutor resigned. His team followed. Those
prosecutions are now at risk. So, the record shows they froze $10
billion illegally, lost in court immediately, and dismantled the pros-
ecution actually putting fraudsters in prison. Every single action
made the fraud worse. This is not incompetence because incom-
petence is random. This was targeted, legally defective, and
prosecutorially catastrophic. If this Committee was serious about
fraud, the first witness should have been the HHS official who sent
the letter, not the Attorney General who beat them in court.
Attorney General Ellison, what are we doing here, and I want ac-
tually to ask you, what is your office doing systemically to pros-
ecute fraud in the state?
Mr. ELLISON. Well, thank you for the question, Congresswoman.
As I said, prosecuting Medicaid fraud is very important work that
we do. We do it every single day. We have secured millions of dol-
lars for people. We have gotten millions in restitution. We have
convicted people and held them accountable. We also represent
state agencies and help those agencies support the work that they
do. The fact of the matter is, is that, you know, this work we do
to stop fraud is helping to protect public money. We are proud of
it. And we also support Federal prosecutions by providing them
with information that they need to prosecute fraud, which we have
done and will, of course, continue to do.
Ms. SIMON. So, sir, so tell me this. How has the ability to pros-
ecute that fraud in social services programs been affected by this
Administration?
Mr. ELLISON. Well, it has been devastated by the actions of this
Administration. This Administration has cut the number of pros-
50
ecutors, but also has redirected FBI agents to do immigration as
opposed to——
Ms. SIMON. Why have they cut those prosecutors?
Mr. ELLISON. Those prosecutors, actually I said ‘‘cut,’’ but they
actually resigned as a matter of conscience because the Administra-
tion was trying to force them to investigate the widow of Renee
Good.
Ms. SIMON. Say more.
Mr. ELLISON. So, many of them said that they could not work
under those circumstances because it violated their personal ethical
requirements, so they quit. So, they——
Ms. SIMON. They left their jobs that they had sworn to do en
mass because they were conflicted with conscience.
Mr. ELLISON. That is right, and may I add, Congresswoman, that
we have had motions to dismiss for the violation of a defendant’s
right to a speedy trial granted by judges in Minnesota because
there are not enough Federal prosecutors. And, you know, one of
those was a person who was a violent offender who was being pros-
ecuted for a felon in possession of a firearm. Case was dismissed
because there are not enough people to perform the functions of
prosecuting people who commit crimes. So, this is having a dev-
astating effect on our state, and in addition to all that, Congress-
woman——
Ms. SIMON. Well, so let me get this straight. Help me under-
stand. Fifty convictions secured. Additional prosecutions in limbo.
The Administration’s prosecutors have quit because the staging of
how this all works, they believe and they have said on record is im-
moral. Why are we here?
Mr. ELLISON. I have been wondering that, Madam.
Ms. SIMON. Because aren’t you saying that you would love for the
prosecutions that are dangling in the wind, you would love for
those folks to face justice?
Mr. ELLISON. Absolutely. Stealing public money is repugnant.
Ms. SIMON. So, the ask would be then to the Administration for
what? With this Committee here, I think your colleague, the Gov-
ernor of your great state, said you want more Federal prosecutors
on this case.
Mr. ELLISON. Yes, but also, we should go back to the Hippocratic
oath of do no harm. I mean, it would be good to just stop doing
things that should not be done, such as demanding that prosecu-
tors investigate Renee Good’s widow.
Ms. SIMON. Right. That is right. Well, I want to thank you all
so much for coming today, and to the Reverend, I was able to come
to your state briefly. And like one of my colleagues said, I did go
by the site of Ms. Good’s death, and it was heartening to see the
solidarity in your community. There are about 150 Christians recit-
ing the Lord’s prayer over and over and over. You all are showing
us what good really means. Thank you so much for being here
today, and I will yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair recog-
nizes Mr. Crane from Arizona.
Mr. CRANE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our guests
for coming today.
51
I want to start with you, Attorney General Ellison. In an inter-
view with CNN host, Laura Coates, she asked you about whether
or not you did enough to stop the fraud. Do you remember that
interview, Attorney General?
Governor WALZ. Congressman, I got to admit that I do not re-
member the details of that.
Mr. CRANE. Can we play the video, please, so to refresh Mr.
Ellison’s memory?
Chairman COMER. Are we ready? It may take us a second on
that. I am sorry.
Mr. CRANE. Okay. I will just tell you what you said when she
asked you if you had done enough to stop the fraud, and she men-
tioned the $9 billion. You said, ‘‘Of course we have done enough.
We are doing more every single day. This is a political matter. This
is not a serious thing.’’ Do you remember saying that, Attorney
General Ellison?
Mr. ELLISON. I remember the conversation. What I remember
was that I was lamenting the politicized nature of this very serious
problem. I——
Mr. CRANE. Well, you said it is not a serious thing, so now you
are saying——
Mr. ELLISON. Fraud is a serious thing.
Mr. CRANE. Okay. Well, that is not——
Mr. ELLISON. Politicizing fraud is not a serious thing.
Mr. CRANE. That is not what you said on CNN, Mr. Ellison. You
said this is a political matter, and this is a quote, ‘‘This is not a
serious thing.’’ So, I noticed you are changing your tune now that
you are before the House Oversight Committee.
Mr. ELLISON. I would have to disagree.
Mr. CRANE. Do you understand, Mr. Attorney General, why this
adds gasoline to the fire when Americans are so frustrated with
this government for their out-of-control spending and the amount
of money they pay in taxes, and then to see $9 billion of it, an esti-
mate of $9 billion, getting stolen of their taxpayer dollars and being
used to fund cars and vacations and homes and even fund ter-
rorism? Do you understand how statements like that throw gaso-
line on the fire, sir?
Mr. ELLISON. Congressman, I believe that you are
mischaracterizing what I said. Certainly——
Mr. CRANE. No, I actually read you the quote. I am not
mischaracterizing it all.
Chairman COMER. Mr. Crane, the video is ready if you still want
it. It is up to you.
Mr. CRANE. Yes, let us play it, please.
[Video shown.]
Mr. CRANE. So, how are you going to sit here, Attorney General,
saying I am mischaracterizing? I read word for word your quote.
I then showed it to the entire dais, the entire audience here today.
How are you going to sit here and say that I mischaracterized you?
Mr. ELLISON. Congressman, I believe you mischaracterized me
because, clearly, what I was referring to by ‘‘not serious’’ is that the
serious issue of fraud is being politicized and converted into a polit-
ical weapon. That is not a serious matter in my view. That is some-
thing that I believe all of us should take seriously, but we are not
52
taking seriously enough. So, sir, I would say very clearly fraud is
an odious, horrible, malignant thing, and that is why it should not
be turned into a political weapon, but we should come together on
a bipartisan basis to stop it.
Mr. CRANE. The reason it is becoming political, sir, is because of
statements like that when confronted with the $9 billion of fraud
in your state, as the top cop in your state, that you are clearly not
doing enough to address. I want to move on.
Reverend TOLLGAARD, you said in your opening statement that
today’s hearing is ‘‘about fraud in Minnesota, which is serving as
a pretext for the terror the Federal Government has brought to the
people of Minnesota. This fraud has been used as a rationale for
deploying 3,000 Federal immigrant enforcement agents into our
state.’’ Did you say that, Reverend?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Yes.
Mr. CRANE. This is absolutely false. These Federal agents were
actually brought in to the State of Minnesota for a very specific op-
eration to remove illegal alien criminals. It was not because of the
fraud. That is being handled under a completely different agency,
and ICE, and everything else. That is the U.S. District Attorney,
okay? Did you know that?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. The Administration has linked all of these
things together.
Mr. CRANE. Well, they have linked the fact that you guys sup-
ported an open border that let in $15 to $20 million. And some of
the fallout from that is fraud, like the $9 billion we are talking
about today. Some of it are the rapists, the gangsters, you know,
the people that are committing fraud. They are burglarizing people.
They are carjacking people. It is all kind of linked together. It is
also linked to the SAVE Act, which many of you guys and my Dem-
ocrat colleagues do not want to vote for, even though 83 percent of
Americans support it. It is all linked together, but that is not what
this operation was about. So, you are bearing false witness in this
hearing today because that is not what that operation was about
at all.
Reverend TOLLGAARD. What I am here to talk about is the suf-
fering of Minnesotans at the hands of Federal agents, including
children and their parents, and the great devastation and harm
that it has caused across our state and across our wonderful com-
munities.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Mr. Chair, he is over his time.
Mr. CRANE. Have you spoken out about Laken Riley or any of the
American victims that have been raped, murdered, or killed by
these illegal aliens, Reverend? I did not think so. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. Now, the Chair
recognizes Mr. Min from California.
Mr. MIN. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for convening in this hearing.
Let us start at the outset by just stating the obvious: waste, fraud,
and abuse are horrible. They are stealing from taxpayers. They are
taking money and food out of the mouths of hungry kids. I have
spent my career fighting against fraud. I started my career at the
SEC, prosecuting corporate fraud, continued on as a law professor,
teaching the next generation. And as someone on the Oversight
Committee, this is a very, very important issue to me. Again, every
53
dollar that is stolen from these programs is a dollar that is not just
taken from us hardworking taxpayers, it is something that is
meant for a better use.
And so, I appreciate the gist of this hearing, but as I have point-
ed out in prior hearings on allegations of fraud in Minnesota, the
singular and exclusive focus on the Somalian community in Min-
nesota seems very partisan and wrong because we know there is
massive fraud across this country, particularly in southern states,
including states like Florida and Mississippi. Mississippi is still at
trial right now over $77 million in welfare fraud. Federal prosecu-
tors have recently arrested a Russian national accused of submit-
ting billions of dollars in fraudulent schemes in Texas and Florida.
And of course, Oklahoma and Alabama consistently rank as the
highest states when it comes to SNAP fraud, and yet we have only
focused on Minnesota. Why?
As a freshman Member, I have been here 14 months, but I have
learned that the House Republicans are all single-issue voters with
just a handful of exceptions, and that single issue, the only thing
that you all care about is whether you are on Team Trump or not.
And so, when Donald Trump goes after Minnesota and falsely
claims that he won the election there three times and that it was
rigged against him, I pay close attention. When he says that he
would no longer admit Somalians to this country because they con-
tribute ‘‘nothing to this country,’’ I listen. That is a wildly racist
statement, but it is going to reflect what Republicans are going to
do, and that is why we are holding this hearing.
I care about welfare fraud, and I care about the scumbags who
rip off taxpayer money, but if this was about welfare fraud, we
would be also hauling in people like Mississippi Governor Tate
Reeves and former NFL quarterback, Brett Favre, who clearly
knew about his scheme to send money to build a volleyball facility
at the college where his daughter was playing at, receive funds for
$600,000 or more for work that he never did from the government,
again, taking money from the mouths of children that are hungry.
No, this hearing is not about welfare fraud. It is about placating
Donald Trump. This Committee is holding this hearing for the
same reasons that it is ignoring the massive corruption we know
that Donald Trump is engaged in with his family, soliciting bribes
from foreign governments and private companies in exchange for
regulatory favor; for the same reason that Republicans are pro-
tecting pedophiles right now and that the DOJ is right now actively
deleting Epstein files while we are at war with Iran. It is why they
ignore their oath to support and defend the Constitution of the
United States. It is why we are holding hearings on this rather
than on ICE abuses or the fact that Donald Trump just took us
into war without even consulting with Congress, let alone getting
our authorization for military use or force or actual declaration of
war, in direct contravention of the Constitution of the United
States.
But for those of us who care about taxpayer dollars, let us focus
on that. This is horrible, but of course we have seen, instead, a dif-
ferent type of abuse of our taxpayer dollars. They have taken our
taxpayer dollars and used them to fund abuses against our Amer-
ican people, as a number of our witnesses have aptly described.
54
And I want to just point out that until the murder of Alex Pretti,
not a single DHS or ICE agent accused of wrongdoing, witnessed
or videotaped assaulting Americans, was suspended, faced any dis-
ciplinary action. That does not happen with police. When my local
law enforcement are accused of misconduct, certainly if they are
videotaped shooting someone, they are subject to investigation.
Maybe they are justified or not, but they are suspended, removed
from duty, investigated. None of that has happened until the mur-
der of Alex Pretti and the outrage around that.
Now, Governor Walz, I want to just briefly ask you, what is the
economic impact that deployment of ICE in Minnesota’s had over
the past few months?
Governor WALZ. Well, thank you, Congressman. I thank you for
your characterization. I associate myself with you on fraud is hor-
rific. It is corrosive. It hurts those people that are there, and tax-
payers should demand accountability, and I think that is what we
are trying to take. The issue again?
Mr. MIN. What is the economic impact? I know businesses
have——
Governor WALZ. Well, for us we just had our economic numbers,
and I would tell people that we have to balance the budget every
year. Minnesota, we are AAA bond rated. That shows up good. It
does not account for what happened over the last three months,
and by estimates, the city of Minneapolis estimates they lost $200
million alone, and I remind people, you saw pictures of Min-
neapolis. This happened across the state. Near my hometown of
Mankato, Minnesota and St. Peter, we saw a woman that was
pulled over at gunpoint, a citizen. The chilling effect it had: busi-
nesses going under, especially immigrant-owned businesses, people
who are here legally.
Mr. MIN. Yes.
Governor WALZ. Citizens, starting businesses, were shut down.
Mr. MIN. I am just going to reclaim my time to make one final
point here. I was at Minneapolis, had the chance to meet with you
and others. I also met with a number of local police chiefs, and one
of the things they told me, first, this is not the first time ICE has
operated in Minnesota, but in the past, what is different about this
time is that they did not coordinate. They did not tell anyone.
Governor WALZ. That is true.
Mr. MIN. And that resulted in a lot of 9–1–1 calls because when
you see mass men jumping out of vans, pulling people out, assault-
ing them, punching them in the head, as happens all the time with
ICE agents—and by the way, that is not a matter of training, it
is a matter of picking people who are predisposed to violence—that
costs our local police quite a lot of money. It is one of the reasons
I am going to be introducing the RECOUP Act so that local juris-
dictions are repaid for the funds that they expend due to ICE mis-
conduct. With that, I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. Before I recognize
Ms. Boebert, Mr. Gill, I understand you have a UC?
Mr. GILL. Yep. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous con-
sent to enter into the record a letter from the America First Policy
Institute, dated March 3, 2026, which details widespread and
rampant fraud in Minnesota.
55
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Boebert from Colorado.
Ms. BOEBERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to summa-
rize some of the things that have already been said here today
rather than ask these questions directly.
The Federal prosecutors that we have, have now charged nearly
100 individuals across multiple Minnesota fraud schemes, includ-
ing Feeding Our Future and, related, Medicaid, daycare, and au-
tism programs, with 85 of those charged being of Somali descent.
Governor Walz, your Administration’s Department of Education
and Department of Human Services failed to act on multiple early
fraud warnings about Feeding Our Future, allowing the theft of at
least $250 million in Federal child nutrition funds that were sup-
posed to feed hungry kids during the COVID–19 pandemic.
Governor Walz, I would like to turn to the demographics and pol-
icy choices that enabled this. Since you took office, the Somali pop-
ulation in Minnesota has grown substantially. Recently, Fox9 re-
ported—the reporting puts the total over 107,000. Did your Admin-
istration’s soft-on-immigration policies, including expanded refugee
programs and temporary protected status, contribute to that rapid
growth?
Governor WALZ. I could not speak to why people moved to Min-
nesota, other than it is a great place to live.
Ms. BOEBERT. It could be a sanctuary policy and refugee pro-
grams and temporary protected statuses. According to the Center
for Immigration Studies’ analysis of census data, 81 percent of
Minnesota households headed by Somali immigrants receive one or
more forms of public assistance compared to just 21 percent of na-
tive-born Minnesotan households. Why is that disparity so extreme
under your watch, sir?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak specifically, Congresswomen, but
I would anticipate that new-generation immigrants, whether they
be Norwegian or whether they be Hmong or whether they be So-
mali, probably on the front end as they are establishing home own-
ership, education.
Ms. BOEBERT. I think we should be bringing folks to our country
that are going to contribute and not just siphon off of the tax dol-
lars of Americans.
Governor WALZ. They are contributing.
Ms. BOEBERT. Governor Walz, yes or no, would stricter vetting of
immigrants and refugees have prevented many of these fraudsters
from entering our country in the first place?
Governor WALZ. I would not have any way to know that.
Ms. BOEBERT. Do you agree with stricter vetting processes for
those who are coming to our country?
Governor WALZ. I do not care where you are coming from. If you
commit fraud, you are going to jail in Minnesota. That is what I
care about, and that is what I am here for.
Ms. BOEBERT. Yes or no, should Somali immigrants or any other
immigrants who defraud American taxpayers and steal funds in-
tended for hungry children be deported immediately?
Governor WALZ. That is a decision for the Federal Government.
You are responsible for immigration.
56
Ms. BOEBERT. Governor Walz, do you know who Victoria Eileen
Harwell is?
Governor WALZ. I do not believe I do.
Ms. BOEBERT. What about America Mafalda Thayer, or Thayer?
Governor WALZ. I do not believe I do.
Ms. BOEBERT. These are Minnesota women who were brutally
killed by illegal aliens in your state. You do not know who they are,
so I would also assume that you did not attend their vigils or speak
out to their families when they were brutally killed by illegal aliens
in your state?
Governor WALZ. I am not familiar with both of these, no, Con-
gresswomen.
Ms. BOEBERT. No. Just the hard-hitting CNN ones. Yes or no,
would you support ending Minnesota’s sanctuary policies to stop
these fraudsters and murderers from using your state as a safe
haven?
Governor WALZ. Well, as I said on June 12, we do not have sanc-
tuary policies, and Tom Homan reiterated that here in the past few
weeks that we do not either, and that we are cooperating——
Ms. BOEBERT. Will you direct——
Governor WALZ [continuing]. As required.
Ms. BOEBERT. Thank you, Governor. Will you direct local law en-
forcement to fully cooperate with ICE and Federal agents and fol-
low Federal immigration laws that are currently on the books?
Governor WALZ. They do. If they want to do more, they can, but
we have a floor that they have to, and that has been proven time
and time again in Minnesota over this. That is why they are leav-
ing because we had cooperated.
Ms. BOEBERT. Okay. Final question for you, Governor. There are
multiple documented reports of Somali immigrants entering sham
marriages, including siblings and close family members, solely for
immigration purposes. Are you aware of these reports, and what,
if anything, has your Administration done to stop this kind of im-
migration fraud happening in your state?
Governor WALZ. States are not responsible for immigration
screening, and I am not familiar with what you are referencing.
Ms. BOEBERT. You are responsible for any vetting whatsoever?
Governor WALZ. Federal Government.
Ms. BOEBERT. Okay. Well, this is happening under your watch,
and there is immigration fraud, so we will do everything that we
can, and hopefully, you allow your local law enforcement officers to
coordinate with Federal agents when we are going after these im-
migration fraudsters. Thank you, Governor.
Governor WALZ. As we do.
Chairman COMER. Thank you, Madam. The Chair now recognizes
Mr. Walkinshaw from Virginia.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor, would
you agree that fraud is not a victimless crime?
Governor WALZ. I would agree with that. It is not a victimless
crime.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Thank you, and it is my understanding that
in Minnesota, you as Governor, you do not have the unilateral
power to pardon those convicted of state crimes, but you and Mr.
57
Ellison, and I think one other person sit on a panel that can issue
pardons. Is that correct?
Governor WALZ. Yes, with the Chief Justice of the Supreme
Court.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Thank you. In your time on that panel, can
you recall ever pardoning an individual convicted of fraud?
Governor WALZ. I cannot recall. I cannot state either way.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Okay. Mr. Ellison, any recollection of that?
Mr. ELLISON. It is possible. I do not recall it, though.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Okay. I am not sure if it is true in Minnesota,
but at the Federal level, if a convicted fraudster is pardoned, that
pardon can wipe out their obligation to pay restitution to the vic-
tims.
[Photo]
Are any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? I know
you are far away. His name is Jason Galanis. Sound familiar?
Governor WALZ. I am not, Congressman.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Jason Galanis, according to the Federal judge
who sentenced him to 15 years in prison, is a serial fraudster and
a conman who defrauded a pension fund in a Native-American
tribe of $80 million. I will put it in simpler terms: he stole money
from retirees. Do any of our witnesses know what Federal prison
Mr. Galanis is being held in?
Governor WALZ. I do not, Congressman.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. He is not, because President Trump, our
fraudster in chief, the namesake of the fraudulent Trump Univer-
sity, the fraudulent Trump Foundation, the fraudulent Trump Or-
ganization, pardoned him and relieved him of the requirement to
pay restitution to his victims. A Member of this Committee, Mr.
Jordan, recommended to President Trump that he be pardoned.
[Photo]
Any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? His name is
Jeremy Hutchinson.
Governor WALZ. I am not, Congressman.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Mr. Hutchinson is a former Arkansas State
Senator, Republican, convicted of a multimillion-dollar public cor-
ruption scheme: embezzlement, bribes, illegal campaign contribu-
tions, conspiracy to commit bribery—Mr. Homan might know some-
thing about that—for passing legislation that benefited an ortho-
dontist who was paying him off. President Trump’s Department of
Justice in his first term prosecuted him. A judge sentenced him to
eight years in prison and ordered him to pay $355,000 in restitu-
tion to his victims. Any of our witnesses know where Mr. Hutch-
inson is serving that sentence today?
Mr. ELLISON. I have a guess.
Governor WALZ. I have a guess, too.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. He is not serving a sentence because Presi-
dent Trump pardoned him, relieving him of his restitution obliga-
tion: a corrupt politician, prosecuted by Trump’s Justice Depart-
ment in the first term, pardoned by Trump in this term. Trump
has pardoned fraudster after fraudster, denying victims—we talked
about victims—taxpayers, senior citizens, children, the restitution
they deserve, $1.3 billion. That is the total that Trump’s pardon
fraudsters have been relieved of paying their victims. The Chair-
58
man called this hearing because he is concerned about fraud, about
accountability. I share those concerns, but where is the hearing on
the $1.3 billion Trump has relieved his pardon fraudsters from pay-
ing their victims? Do those victims get a voice in this Congress?
There is a lot of outrage today, raised voices on both sides. Will we
raise our voices on behalf of those who have been victimized by
President Trump’s pardon fraudsters?
Governor Walz, what signal would it send if you and Attorney
General Ellison and the judge who sit on this panel were to pardon
some of the fraudsters who have committed this fraud in Min-
nesota? What signal would that send? What impact could that
have?
Governor WALZ. Congressman, I believe it would send a signal
that we do not take it seriously because you have to put these peo-
ple in jail, and they have to serve their lengthy sentences, and they
have to do restitution.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. And just hypothetically here, if you were to
pardon one of those individuals, how would you explain it to the
victims of that fraud—the taxpayers across the country, those indi-
viduals who did not get access to the social services they need be-
cause the money was stolen. How would you explain it to them?
Governor WALZ. I do not believe I could.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. I do not think you could either.
Mr. ELLISON. May I share, Congressman——
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Please.
Mr. ELLISON [continuing]. That, generally, when people get any
kind of a part in Minnesota, they have done all their sentence, and
Governor Walz is very careful to say have you paid every penny
you owe people. So, that is kind of how we do pardons in Min-
nesota.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Well, these folks have not paid their pennies,
$1.3 billion worth of pennies.
Chairman COMER. Would the gentleman yield a question?
Mr. WALKINSHAW. My time has expired, Mr. Chairman, so it is
your time.
Chairman COMER. I will give you more time if you want.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Sure.
Chairman COMER. I mean, you mentioned Jason Galanis, and
that piqued my interest, and I am sure it did Mr. Biggs’ as well,
and you are correct. He did defraud an Indian or a Native-Amer-
ican pension fund. Do you know who his partner was?
Mr. WALKINSHAW. I know all the background of it. The point is
he stole money from people.
Chairman COMER. All right. Would you state who his partner
was? It was Hunter Biden, and Jason Galanis served in prison for
how long, Mr. Biggs?
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Two years.
Mr. BIGGS. No, that is incorrect. That is false.
Chairman COMER. No, he served in prison years.
Mr. BIGGS. Many years.
Chairman COMER. And they were equal partners, and Galanis
blew the whistle during our Biden investigation, and he was raped.
He was raped in prison right after that, so I mean.
59
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Will the victims of his fraud get their money
back? Why did President Trump——
Chairman COMER. Well, I do not know. Maybe ask Hunter Biden.
You all defended——
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Ask President Trump.
Chairman COMER. But you were not here. You were not here.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Ask President Trump.
Chairman COMER. In your defense, you were not here during
Biden presidency.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Ask President Trump to get the victims their
money back.
Chairman COMER. You have been here about three months, but
you know more than anybody about everything, so the Chair-
man——
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. So, the Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs from Ari-
zona.
Mr. BIGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I am glad you
brought it up because of the ten partners in that fraud that you
mentioned, nine of them went to prison. Do you know who the one
partner was that did not go? Your buddy, Hunter Biden.
That is right. Hunter Biden did not go, and by the way, you must
not have been here. I do not think you were here when I introduced
all these documents earlier, before I had to leave to go to Judiciary,
talking about, of the 1,500 criminals pardoned by Joe Biden in one
week, two dozen of them were fraudsters that had hundreds of mil-
lions of dollars of restitution forgiven by Joe Biden.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. BIGGS. No, I am going to go now to Mr. Ellison.
Mr. WALKINSHAW. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. BIGGS. No. No, I have had enough of you. Let us talk to Mr.
Ellison. Mr. Ellison, isn’t it true that when you were a Member of
Congress, you sponsored the Money Remittances Improvement Act
of 2014? It was H.R. 4386. Do you remember that?
Mr. ELLISON. Congressman, I think that it is accurate.
Mr. BIGGS. Yes. I mean, I get you. We all introduced lots of bills,
but that bill’s purpose was to give more authority to states to in-
vestigate remittance payments. Do you remember that?
Mr. ELLISON. Congressman, I believe that the purpose of that bill
was to facilitate financial transactions for Minnesotans who needed
them.
Mr. BIGGS. Well, in reality, you shifted remittance payment in-
vestigations to the states, and that was supported by the Somali
American Remittances Association. You may not remember that,
but that was.
Mr. ELLISON. Congressman, could you remind me, did that bill
ever pass?
Mr. BIGGS. H.R. 4386. So, it was supported by Somali American
Resistance Association, and it was so important to you that you
said, ‘‘This is a great day for diaspora communities around the
country, including the Somali and Hmong communities.’’ And that
is something you said, and we know that the Somali population in
Minnesota supported that bill. That bill was passed, I believe, in
2014. Minnesota started identifying large numbers of remittances
60
payments going overseas. And isn’t it true that within four years
of the bill passing, more than $100 million had been flown out of
the Minneapolis Airport by Somalians? Do you know that?
Mr. ELLISON. I do not have the information on that, sir.
Mr. BIGGS. And over the last two years, the TSA has identified
over $700 million being flown out and linked to Somali travel. Are
you familiar with that?
Mr. ELLISON. No, sir, I do not have the data on that.
Mr. BIGGS. Under your tenure as the AG, the amount of remit-
tance payments going to Somalia, which, by the way, some esti-
mates as high as 40 percent of all Somalia’s GDP comes from those
remittance payments, and roughly the same number, 40 percent of
families in Somalia receive some economic benefit directly from re-
mittance payments. So, moving from that, do you know Salim Said?
Mr. ELLISON. That name is not familiar to me, sir.
Mr. BIGGS. Ikran Mohamud?
Mr. ELLISON. No.
Mr. BIGGS. Abshir Omar?
Mr. ELLISON. No.
Mr. BIGGS. Okay. So, in 2021, you met with a group of Somali’s
business people. Those three people were there. Safari Restaurant,
Partners In Quality Care, also known as Parties in Nutrition, some
of their named partners, and Feeding Our Future representatives,
including Abshir Omar, who said they were having difficulties be-
cause they were being investigated and that conduct is very racist,
xenophobic, and Islamophobic. Do you remember that meeting?
Mr. ELLISON. Yes, I do, and I will tell you that these are people
who were fraudsters. They lied to me, they lied to the judge——
Mr. BIGGS. Yep.
Mr. ELLISON [continuing]. They lied to state agencies, and that
is why we contributed to them being convicted.
Mr. BIGGS. Well, let us go on from that because you may not re-
member some of the things you said to them specifically, and
maybe we should play this video. Do we have the video queued up?
If we have the video queued up, that is fine. Let us do it.
[Video shown.]
Mr. BIGGS. Because what you thought was terrible there was
that these people were being investigated for fraud——
Mr. ELLISON. That——
Mr. BIGGS [continuing]. And you later took $10,000 in campaign
donations from these same individuals. Do you remember that?
Mr. ELLISON. I would disagree with that characterization en-
tirely, sir.
Mr. BIGGS. I am sure you would——
Mr. ELLISON. No, what I was——
Mr. BIGGS [continuing]. Because it is surely uncomfortable for
you, but you took $10,000 from those same people——
Mr. ELLISON. No, that——
Mr. BIGGS [continuing]. That were ostensibly supposed to be in-
vestigated, yes.
Mr. ELLISON. No, that is actually inaccurate, sir.
Mr. BIGGS. No, it is not inaccurate.
Mr. ELLISON. It is. First of all——
61
Mr. BIGGS. You are entitled to say it is inaccurate, but the facts
are the facts, and my time has expired, Mr. Chairman, but I do
have some UC requests.
Chairman COMER. Go ahead.
Mr. BIGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ‘‘Minnesota AG, Who Took
$10,000 From Convicted Scammers, Dismisses Fraud Scandal as
Political Theater.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘Amy Bach Alleges Governor Tim Walz, Attorney
General Keith Ellison, Knew of Minnesota Fraud.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘Walz and Omar Using ICE Operations to Distract
From Fraud Scandal.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘Tim Walz Accused Of Stonewalling Key Probe as So-
mali Fraud Sweeps His State.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘Conservatives Blast Dems, Walz for Likening ICE
Agents to Nazi Police Force.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘Tim Walz Urges Minnesotans to Resist Federal Oc-
cupation.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘Tim Walz Was a COVID–19 Tyrant.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘Anti-ICE Agitators Set Up Blockade on Minneapolis
Street to Check Drivers’ License Plates.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘Minnesota Attorney General’s Legal Opinion Could
Threaten Some County Agreements With ICE.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. BIGGS. ‘‘ICE Restricted From Minneapolis-Owned Parking
Areas Under Mayor Frey Orders;’’ ‘‘Minnesota Mom Jailed Over
COVID Accuses Walz of Tyranny;’’ ‘‘Minnesota Grandma Jailed for
Defying Walz COVID Lockdown Order Warns ‘You Do Not Want
Tyranny at This Level;’ ’’ and ‘‘Mother Ponders.’’ And that is all.
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Pressley from Massachusetts.
Ms. PRESSLEY. I have been in Congress now for almost eight
years, and one of the most meaningful moments that I experienced
here was in the Committee on Oversight and Reform [sic] under
the great chairman, Elijah Cummings. It was the first hearing to
take place, that I introduced in the House of Representatives, on
the epidemic that is childhood trauma. Though I represent the
Massachusetts 7th, one throughline has remained true in my trav-
els and conversations, from Massachusetts to Minnesota, to Illinois
to Texas, and it is the devastating impacts of Trump’s terror cam-
paign on our Nation’s children. This Administration’s policies, in-
cluding, but certainly not limited to, Operation Metro Surge, in my
opinion, I would characterize as child abuse, child neglect, and in-
flicting childhood trauma. We are experiencing in real time the
compounded adultifying of our children where, increasingly so, a
childhood is a privilege instead of a right.
62
I am reminded of a conversation I had recently at the airport
where a dad approached me to talk about his 6-year-old son who
returned home from school, pleading and begging for his parents
to give safe haven to his classmate, his best friend, for fear that
if they did not do that, that he would be deported. No child should
have those concerns or carry that heavy burden, but this is the re-
ality for our Nation’s children under Donald Trump’s America.
Frederick Douglass said it is easier to build strong children than
to repair broken men. We are certainly not building strong chil-
dren.
In my district, the Massachusetts 7th, Alaini was only two weeks
old when her father was wrongfully taken by ICE, a trauma that
she will carry for the rest of her life. Again, so far, I am speaking
about the pleas of a 6-year-old, and policy, rather, the family sepa-
ration of a 2-week old. In Minnesota, Liam Ramos was only at the
age of five years old, was detained by ICE and sent to Texas, and
he will carry that trauma for the rest of his life. There are the chil-
dren that are directly impacted, then there is that secondary trau-
ma for those who have borne witness. While in Minnesota, I met
with parents who have had to establish parental patrols armed
with whistles and orange vests and their cameras to try to keep
their children safe. Green Street Elementary, it was just across the
street from one of the murders that occurred in broad daylight
under Operation Metro Surge.
Around the country, the children of Renee Good, Keith Porter,
Geraldo Campos, and dozens of other children whose parents were
killed by ICE agents will carry that trauma the rest of their lives,
trauma in their bodies, their classrooms, their sleep. It shows up
in the ways they cling to their parents at school drop-off and the
silence of a child who used to speak freely, in nightmares that no
child should be visited by.
Governor Walz, as a former educator and coach, you worked
closely with young people experiencing traumatic events. What ef-
fect does this have on them, their classmates, and community, and
you heard from mental health professionals or pediatric providers
about how this is showing up in your state?
Governor WALZ. No. Well, thank you for the question, Congress-
woman. First of all, I would say when I talk about Minnesota being
one of the best states, if we are not first, it is usually because Mas-
sachusetts is, and I note that it is true because you care about this.
And you mentioned it correctly, this is generational trauma that
has been inflicted, whether it is learning loss that has happened
or the trauma we have seen amongst our children.
I say that as an educator, as Governor, of the deep concern, but
as a parent of seeing this, what has happened to our children. We
know that mental health issues will start to show up. We know
that we will see educational loss, and those have generational im-
pacts on our economy and everything else. But I will note your col-
league mentioned me being a tyrant during COVID. We had some
of the lowest deaths due to COVID. Tyrant looks like children
being drug from their parents, old people being drug out of their
house without warrants, two dead on the streets. And your point,
the world saw a piece of it on TV. I can tell you, none of us are
going to be the same, Congresswoman. We are going to deal with
63
this, and we are going to put money into social service programs
to address it while we tighten up fraud protections because the
idea is, is you have all these generous programs. Yes, and our peo-
ple are healthier. Our people are more educated. Our economy is
stronger. So, thank you.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you. I asked unanimous consent to enter
into the record a February 2026 article from Heckinger Report ti-
tled, ‘‘Parental Stress, Raids, and Isolation’’——
Chairman COMER. Without——
Ms. PRESSLEY [continuing]. ‘‘How Immigration Enforcement
Traumatizes Even the Youngest Children.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. PRESSLEY. You know, as I close, I have always taken issue
with the myth that children are resilient. It is something that peo-
ple say because I guess it brings them comfort, the false notion
that if you hurt kids, they will automatically heal. It allows policy-
makers to inflict harm and then to look away.
But children are not collateral for reckless and godless policies,
and they should not be ignored. Rather, we should center children
to understand the impacts of all these policies, and Governor Walz,
with these remaining seconds——
Chairman COMER. I am sorry, ma’am. Your time has expired.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Okay. Well, I yield.
Chairman COMER. All right. Thank you. The Chair now recog-
nizes Mr. Sessions from Texas.
Mr. SESSIONS. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. To my two
former colleagues, I would welcome you back, and I know that this
is something that is not as easily done, and I recognize that. I want
to thank our Methodist preacher for being here.
I want to put in some context what you have heard today, and
that is, probably to both of you, not a lot has changed up here. We
are still trying to play the gotcha game. People are trying to do
their job. That is what we are trying to do here. We come back and
talk about children, yet we forget that President Biden, President
Obama had tens of thousands, 800,000 children, that were lost by
them that President Trump is still trying to find. We talk about not
trusting ICE, which is a Federal component, and yet the Boston
bombers caused chaos. I cannot imagine why we would not want
to form up a relationship instead of saying ICE is no good, we do
not want you. It is the Federal component.
So, with all that said, in fairness to each of you, you have heard
what we have said today, so I would ask you, Governor, and then
I will say it right up front. I was kind of hoping that you might
show up, or both of you might show up, because the Methodist
preacher is here and say we did not do everything right. We think
there were a lot of things done wrong. We think we want to learn.
We come and ask that you understand that this is something that
happened in our midst.
My Methodist preacher—I am a global Methodist—my Methodist
preacher meets with me pretty often and makes sure that he
knows and I know, I look for balance, I look for fairness, I look for
objectivity, and I know you have not been placed in a very good po-
sition now, but I got 3 minutes left. Governor, what did we do
64
wrong here? How do you want to set that record straight because,
otherwise, it is going to be a he said/he said against you guys.
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. SESSIONS. And I want you to tell me, where did we get it
wrong on this side?
Governor WALZ. Well, Congressman, I appreciate that, and I do
say——
Mr. SESSIONS. And you and I are friends.
Governor WALZ. We are, and I have said it publicly before. We
disagreed on some issues, but we had a lot of conversations on the
Floor. Look, I think I agree with you. As Governor, I have taken
accountability for this. I am not going to run again. I need to spend
the time fixing this. This does undermine trusting government. Do
I wish there were things that could have happened earlier? Yes,
but in this job, wish did not do it. I am looking into where I see
it. I can tell you this, Congressman, that the safeguards we are
putting in place are going to make a difference. I think other states
can use them.
I think one of the things is, I asked, in the helping in the part-
nership piece of this, understanding that this happens in all states.
I am certainly not proud this happened. I certainly understand it
happened on my watch. Whether it predated me or not, I am here.
I think some of the things is there are some legal changes we need
around Medicaid eligibility issues that you are talking about that
actually might get at this. Because I would hope, Congressman,
you and I agree, these programs are valuable and they need to go
to the people who need them, and we need to stop the fraud that
is in there, and I am trying to explain to you what we did from
the beginning. These people continue to be a moving target, and
they are very sophisticated.
Mr. SESSIONS. Is there still a problem?
Governor WALZ. Is there still fraud happening?
Mr. SESSIONS. Is there still a problem, and we will say in Min-
nesota. I know we are not going to——
Governor WALZ. I think there is more work to be done, yes, I will
tell you that.
Mr. SESSIONS. Okay.
Governor WALZ. And we are working on it. I have a package that
I introduced last week. One of the things that I think is going to
be helpful, and I know you are working on it up here, is the ability
to use AI. It is the pre-screening. What you do not want to hear
from us is, and I do not want to hear, that we are arresting people
after they did it. We need to stop it before it happened.
Mr. SESSIONS. I agree with some of that.
Governor WALZ. We are moving upstream.
Mr. SESSIONS. We do need to arrest them, however.
Governor WALZ. We do, we do, but if we are just continuously
chasing our tails, it is like I said, if you arrest one part——
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, I would like to keep working with you be-
cause we have got to stop this, and so if you could——
Governor WALZ. I would welcome that.
Mr. SESSIONS. If you would you put together a list that we can
send to other Governors and say, here is what we did.
Governor WALZ. That is fantastic.
65
Mr. SESSIONS. General?
Mr. ELLISON. Congressman Sessions, let me just say thank you
for your question. I absolutely think there is more that all of us can
do to protect the public dollar and get the money where it was in-
tended to go. There are all kind of ways to make sure that——
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, but we are talking about the lessons learned.
Mr. ELLISON. Right.
Mr. SESSIONS. Are you going to show up today, as the Governor
did, and say we made a mistake, I owe an apology to people, we
believe that what you have tried to do today to defend? I am not
trying to put you in a corner, General. I am trying to get you——
Mr. ELLISON. I am going to answer.
Mr. SESSIONS [continuing]. Because we are sitting here trying to
get to where we are going to go.
Mr. ELLISON. I can assure you, Congressman, that I am here to
work to improve this system, and there are improvements that can
be made, and your offer to work on a bipartisan basis to solve this
fraud crisis, I am all in. And if we can get out of fixing the blame
and get to fixing the problem, that would be an enormous thing for
me, and I thank you for asking.
Mr. SESSIONS. Well, it is my hope that you will know that being
here today, we are doing our job, other people are doing their job,
but we have got to get to where we can then say, and here is the
problem and we will take—so, the Governor did—I accept responsi-
bility and let us get on to fixing this because tomorrow is a new
day. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the time.
Chairman COMER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SESSIONS. I yield back my time.
Chairman COMER. Thank you. The Chair recognizes my friend,
Ms. Talib.
Ms. TLAIB. He says that, but then he cuts me off. Thank you all
for coming here. I think it is really important, and, you know, Rev-
erend, I can tell that you care deeply about your community, and
it takes courage to come before this Committee, especially when
you hear so much, to me, just misinformation also embedded in
racist tropes about your community. And so, I wanted to ask you,
you know, I think a lot of Americans, we think about what com-
pelled you to speak out and join hundreds of other faith leaders at
the St. Paul Airport to protest against the violent ICE occupation
of your community?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Thank you for the question. Yes, I am
here just as I was that day at the airport because I am representa-
tive of so many Minnesotans who are actively engaged in the work
of neighboring. And I am also here, as I was that day, because
there are so many Minnesotans for whom it is not safe to speak
out today.
Ms. TLAIB. And I will tell you, you know, we are learning a lot.
I think the whole country is learning a lot from all of you and your
neighboring, and showing love and showing up for your community.
And I know it took a lot of courage for even some of the elected
officials to stand up and say, you know, not on our watch. You
know, we talk about the fearlessness that is needed sometimes to
fight for our rights, and some people will continue to gaslight folks
and call us domestic terrorists to surveil us more, to try to bully
66
us and intimidate us to silence. And I just want the Minnesota peo-
ple to know, I know my district sees you all and we say continue
it. You are freeing all of us when you continue to speak up, and
you are protecting all of us as well.
In response to, of course, the powerful local resistance, you know,
one of the things they keep saying is it is ended, it is done. You
heard my colleague from Boston, Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley,
talk about trauma. It is not done. There needs to be a lot of heal-
ing, and I do not think they want to fund that or support that, but
I am asking just as myself and many of us in my district are won-
dering, is it truthful? Are they done?
Reverend TOLLGAARD. Unfortunately, it is not over. As we heard,
there are still 650 ICE agents in Minnesota. That means there is
still fear and trauma for our children and for our immigrant and
refugee neighbors. And as Ms. Pressley named, the trauma will go
on, and we have much work to do in healing and caring for, espe-
cially those who have been most victimized in this.
Ms. TLAIB. So, I want to talk about intention. What is the intent
of this hearing? What is the intent of all of it? I think intention
is important because, you know, for the Chairman, if I can submit
for the record article titled, ‘‘Fraud Focus: Why is Trump Granting
Clemency to Convicted Fraudsters?’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. TLAIB. Because I see this, and even though you are here, you
have nothing to hide, these folks are not here. I do not get to ques-
tion them. I do not get to say to the guy that committed $200 mil-
lion Medicare fraud who just got pardoned by Trump. I do not get
ask Jared Kushner, you know, why does your dad go from, literally,
in France, the title of the article is, ‘‘Prison to Paris.’’ Literally,
from committing fraud, he pardons his son-in-law’s father, and now
he is an ambassador. You see all that happening, it is like, well,
what is the intention here? They are creating a world’s largest
paramilitary under the direct control of the President, who has
made it clear that he intends to crush dissent, to crush dissent, tar-
get entire cities, and rig elections. He literally is telling us he is
going to send ICE agents out on Election Day to intimidate and
target our community. He is not lying, he is going to do it, and I
think we need to be very, very much prepared.
At the same time, intention. Governor, seeing him and this Ad-
ministration funding freeze and blaming all of these people. Like,
I hope people do not blame my community for everything Trump’s
doing. Do you know what I mean? Like, I mean, can you imagine
right now the impact of this happening? I mean, what impact is it
going to really have right now? I mean, you are talking about,
today, this is cutoff, and he is refusing to let go of the money that,
again, Minnesota actually is supposed to rightfully get appro-
priated.
Governor WALZ. Four hundred thousand children lose healthcare.
Pregnant women and elderly and rural hospitals will be severely
impacted and potentially close.
Ms. TLAIB. It is hard because I wonder if they would do that in
Kentucky where they have fraud, in Tennessee where they have
fraud.
67
Governor WALZ. Their own numbers show that our error rate is
2.1 percent. The national average is 6 percent.
Ms. TLAIB. Oh, I know. You guys testified about it. Attorney Gen-
eral, even though—you know, you gave everybody else 30 seconds—
I need to ask you, I mean, you are here today. What could you be
doing right now? You are Attorney General. Today, if you were at
work instead of here, to be honest, I mean, can you explain what
is back home that you have work to do at home? Like, what can
you be doing instead?
Mr. ELLISON. [Off mic.]
Chairman COMER. Microphone, please.
Mr. ELLISON. One thing I have is a Medicaid fraud bill that I am
trying to get passed to increase——
Ms. TLAIB. The legislature is in session.
Mr. ELLISON. The legislature is in session, and I am supposed to
meet with House caucus leaders tonight—hoping to make that so
that we can do more to stop fraud.
Ms. TLAIB. Yes.
Mr. ELLISON. So, that is one thing I could be doing among 20
others.
Ms. TLAIB. Well, I will tell you, you know, I am always reminded,
and please bear with me, Chairman Comer. Our amazing, you
know, former Chair, Elijah Cummings, first hearing I ever had as
a freshman was on the high cost of prescription drugs. It was in-
credible, it was powerful, it was real, and the intent there was, let
us make sure people that get sick are taken care of. I am just so
tired of these hearings that are just politicized in a way that is not
consistent because if he is doing this, why are you targeting inno-
cent people? Thank you.
Chairman COMER. Thank you, Mr. Tlaib. I gave you an extra
minute and 15 seconds to criticize the Chairman of the Committee,
so, but I do like Ms. Tlaib. The Chair recognizes Mr. Gill from
Texas.
Mr. GILL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the wit-
nesses for taking the time to be here. Governor Walz, are you fa-
miliar with the early intensive developmental and behavioral inter-
vention benefit?
Governor WALZ. I am, Congressman.
Mr. GILL. Got it. It provides services for autism patients. Is that
right?
Governor WALZ. That is correct.
Mr. GILL. Got it, and when did you become Governor?
Governor WALZ. In January 2019.
Mr. GILL. In 2019, okay. So, using 2018 as a baseline, do you
know what that program paid in Medicaid claims?
Governor WALZ. I do not, Congressman.
Mr. GILL. It is about $671,000. Do you know what that program
paid in Medicaid claims in 2024?
Governor WALZ. I do not have the number in front of me.
Mr. GILL. Three hundred forty-two million dollars. That is about
a 500x increase over six years. Was there 500 times the number
of autism patients in that time period?
Governor WALZ. I could not speak specifically to it, but I will say,
Congressman, that——
68
Mr. GILL. That does not sound reasonable, right?
Governor WALZ. Right.
Mr. GILL. You do not think there was a 500x increase in the
number of autism patients——
Governor WALZ. No, I think——
Mr. GILL [continuing]. In six years, right?
Governor WALZ. Correct, and that is why we ordered onsite visits
starting back in 2024.
Mr. GILL. So, we agree that that does not sound reasonable.
Would you also agree that a single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud
is a dollar too much to tolerate?
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. GILL. Yep, and would you agree that as Governor, ultimately
you are responsible if tax dollars are defrauded?
Governor WALZ. Yes, I would agree.
Mr. GILL. Yep. Would you also agree that calling somebody racist
is a serious accusation?
Governor WALZ. If they are racist? I think it is probably accurate.
Mr. GILL. I am asking you, is that a serious accusation to make
about somebody?
Governor WALZ. I think it is just an observation of reality.
Mr. GILL. All right. Well, let us go there. Is it racist for a govern-
ment official to identify fraud?
Governor WALZ. No.
Mr. GILL. No. Is it Islamophobic?
Governor WALZ. To identify fraud?
Mr. GILL. To identify fraud?
Governor WALZ. No, I do not believe it would be.
Mr. GILL. How come multiple whistleblowers have said that your
Administration told them not to say anything about widespread
fraud across multiple agencies because doing so would be consid-
ered racist or Islamophobic?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to it because it is not anything
I would say.
Mr. GILL. Well, that is what your Administration has said and
has told whistleblowers, and as you just testified, the buck stops
with you. It is what you stated in your statement whenever you an-
nounced you were not running again. Are you familiar with Faye
Bernstein?
Governor WALZ. Yes, I am familiar with the name.
Mr. GILL. She is a Democrat, isn’t she?
Governor WALZ. I would not know that.
Mr. GILL. She stated publicly that she is a Democrat. She has
only voted Democrat in her life. She has also stated publicly that
she was retaliated against and called racist, and that her work re-
sponsibilities were diminished whenever she was highlighting
fraud within your Administration. Are you familiar with that? Why
do you think she would——
Governor WALZ. I could not speak to specific allegations.
Mr. GILL. Why do you think she would say that?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak for what she would think.
Mr. GILL. You have no idea?
Governor WALZ. I do not.
69
Mr. GILL. You would agree that the tone in your Administration
comes from you ultimately, right?
Governor WALZ. The tone is that——
Mr. GILL. The tone of how you might deal with whistleblowers.
Governor WALZ. Right, and we protect them, and they——
Mr. GILL. It does not sound like you are protecting them. We
heard from Representative Kristen Robbins, ‘‘We have dozens of
credible whistleblower reports saying the exact same thing, that
people were told not to say anything because they would be called
racist or Islamophobic, or it would hurt the state.’’ Do you think
it is racist or Islamophobic to highlight and try to stop fraud?
Governor WALZ. It is not, and I certainly would not——
Mr. GILL. It is not, but that was the message your Administra-
tion was sending to multiple whistleblowers.
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to that.
Mr. GILL. You cannot speak to that. No, you do not want to
speak to that, I think. Should whistleblowers——
Governor WALZ. I have over 40,000 employees, Congressman.
Mr. GILL [continuing]. Be retaliated against?
Governor WALZ. Pardon me?
Mr. GILL. Do you think whistleblowers should be retaliated
against?
Governor WALZ. Absolutely not. They have strong protections in
Minnesota and lots of pass, and the pass——
Mr. GILL. That is not what we are hearing from whistleblowers.
Faye Bernstein, who, again, has stated that she is a Democrat, she
has only ever voted Democrat, says that she was——
Governor WALZ. That does not matter whether she is Democrat
or Republican.
Mr. GILL [continuing]. Says that she was subjected to ‘‘a smear
campaign’’ for trying to make leadership aware of illegal con-
tracting practices. Why do you think that happened?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to that, Congressman, because
we do not do it, and it is——
Mr. GILL. You do not know anything?
Governor WALZ. I do know that we have strong whistleblower
protections, and I cannot speak to this specific——
Mr. GILL. That is not what the whistleblowers are saying. Ac-
cording to another report, ‘‘There is just a continuous effort to stifle
you to shut you up, and it is impossible to overcome.’’ Your Admin-
istration’s response to whistleblowers has also been described as
‘‘nearly unbearable retaliation.’’ We have heard claims that ‘‘they
have been denied vacations, promotions, and that it has hurt peo-
ple’s careers to speak out against fraud.’’ Do you think that that
had something to do with the prevalence of fraud in your Adminis-
tration?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to it, but it does not happen.
Mr. GILL. Are you going to take responsibility for this?
Governor WALZ. I supervise 40,000 employees. State agencies
have their own——
Mr. GILL. You supervise a lot of employees, and as you have said,
the buck stops with you, and your Administration has treated
whistleblowers like absolute dirt, and that is a big reason why we
have seen so much of our hard-earned tax dollars defrauded.
70
Governor WALZ. Look, Congressman, I told you we have strong
protections. We have an office of Legislative Auditor.
Mr. GILL. This Committee has spoken to nearly 30 whistle-
blowers——
Governor WALZ. And they came through the——
Mr. GILL [continuing]. Most of which are current employees in
your Administration, who have intimate knowledge of what has
been going on, who have all stated that they have faced retaliation
for calling out fraud.
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to them and what they felt.
Mr. GILL. My time is up. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Ms. Ansari.
Ms. ANSARI. Mr. Chairman, it is outrageous that this is what we
are choosing to spend our time on the Oversight Committee. At the
first one——
Chairman COMER. Fraud? Fraud?
Ms. ANSARI. At the first one, yes, fraud, because let us talk about
fraud.
Chairman COMER. Okay.
Ms. ANSARI. At the first one of these ridiculous series of hearings
on Minnesota, I brought up the dozens of horrific ongoing corrup-
tion scandals in the Trump Administration, but I know you are
very scared of Donald Trump, so we will not be talking about those,
but those are the things that we should be investigating on the
Oversight Committee. Now we have another one. The Department
of Justice was caught red-handed withholding explosive and cred-
ible FBI witness interviews of a woman who accused Donald
Trump of sexually assaulting her when she was a minor. Shouldn’t
we hold a hearing on that? Shouldn’t Pam Bondi be here, forced
to testify why she is violating the law that Congress passed, The
Epstein Files Transparency Act, nearly unanimously, along with
this Committee subpoena? But since the Republican Majority in-
stead wants to have a conversation about Minnesota, then let us
do that.
The Trump-Epstein regime’s deployment of thousands of ICE
agents, Donald Trump’s personal secret police force is a fascist dis-
grace. These untrained agents terrorized the people of Minnesota,
violated their rights, and even shot them dead in the streets. I
want to remind us all about what happened to Alex Pretti, an in-
tensive care nurse murdered by CBP agents while trying to protect
a woman that the officers were assaulting.
After his murder, Stephen Miller said Alex was ‘‘a domestic ter-
rorist’’ who ‘‘tried to assassinate Federal law enforcement,’’ a
‘‘would be-assassin,’’ and ‘‘an assassin.’’ Kristi Noem said Alex was
‘‘committing an act of domestic terrorism.’’ She said, ‘‘I do not know
any peaceful protester that shows up with a gun and ammunition
rather than a sign.’’ She accused Alex Pretti of brandishing a weap-
on, despite video evidence showing the gun never left its holster.
Greg Bavino said, ‘‘This looks like a situation where an individual
wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement,’’
and Donald Trump, said Alex, ‘‘A gunman whose weapon was load-
ed with two additional full magazines and ready to go.’’ He said
Alex was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist, obviously pro-
jecting about himself. Dictators in other countries would literally
71
be impressed at how brazen these lies and propaganda spread by
the Trump regime and Kristi Noem are.
So, Governor Walz, I want to thank you and Attorney General
Ellison for putting up with all of the lying and hypocrisy from the
Republican Majority. Governor, is the Trump Administration at-
tempting to block Minnesota State and local police from inves-
tigating the murders of Alex Pretti and Rene Nicole Good?
Governor WALZ. I believe we are not getting any cooperation, and
we were told we would not be part of that. Attorney General may
know more.
Mr. ELLISON. Yes, Congresswoman. We have been told that we
would not have access to investigative file, which would include
evidence that would be relevant to the investigation in both cases.
And even there is one shooting incident that was nonfatal, and we
have been frozen out on that as well.
Ms. ANSARI. So, two follow-up questions.
Mr. ELLISON. We had to go to court to get the evidence pre-
served, yes.
Ms. ANSARI. Okay, and two followup questions and whichever
one of you wants to answer, why do you think that might be the
case, and is this out of the ordinary?
Mr. ELLISON. It is wildly out of the ordinary. I can tell you that
our local FBI, ATF, even before Operation Metro Surge, you know,
you heard about ICE matters, but you did not hear about it nearly
as much as we do now. This is an extraordinary departure from
what we know, and we routinely work with Federal partners and
we have never had problems until now, like this.
Governor WALZ. I would just speculate that they need to take ac-
countability for it, and I think they understood what the world
saw, that this was improper and it needs to have justice for these
families, and I hope those questions are being asked of Secretary
Noem today.
Ms. ANSARI. And Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison,
are you committed to getting to the truth about the murders of
Alex Pretti and Renee Good?
Mr. ELLISON. Absolutely, yes.
Governor WALZ. Yes. I pledged to their families we would do
that.
Ms. ANSARI. Thank you. We need to hold this Administration ac-
countable for these murders, starting by impeaching Kristi Noem
for gross misconduct, lying to Congress, and failure to uphold the
laws in the Constitution. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Grothman from Wis-
consin.
Mr. GROTHMAN. Thank you. We will go for Governor Walz again.
A major focus of today’s hearing has been the misuse of Federal
funds distributed through the Childcare and Development Block
Grant. This program is supposed to be helping working families af-
ford childcare, and I think the taxpayers expect these programs to
be protected from waste and fraud. Most states operate these pro-
grams responsibly. The national improper payment average is
about 4 percent. As you know, I kind of watch what is going on in
Minnesota because it is a state adjacent to Wisconsin, and it is
amazing if you are a Congressman the number of people who get
72
Minnesota and Wisconsin confused. But when that number climbs
above the national average of 4 percent, it should be a warning
sign that oversight has failed.
Minnesota’s improper payment rate got up to 11 percent. That is
not a small administrative mistake—over almost three times the
national average. That is a system that is clearly not being mon-
itored the way it should be. When Wisconsin had a similar program
several years ago when I was in the state legislature, in 2010, we
uncovered fraud in our childcare assistance program. Wisconsin did
not look away. We took responsibility, implemented serious re-
forms, and those reforms included expanding background checks
for providers, creating a dedicated fraud investigation unit,
strengthening eligibility requirements, and instituting a com-
prehensive audit system. That would have been when Scott Walker
was Governor. Because of these reforms, Wisconsin now has an im-
proper payment of under one percent, so in other words, we almost
totally wiped out the problem. It did not happen by accident. It
happened because Governor Walker took responsibility and acted
quickly. He thought fraud was a problem.
Governor Walz, Minnesota had similar warning signs. Investiga-
tors, auditors, even internal officials kept raising concerns about
fraud in social service systems, and it did not just cost taxpayers
money. These programs are meant to help children and working
families. When fraud drains millions of these dollars from these
programs, that money is not reaching the people it was intended
to serve. First of all, Governor Walz, when did your Administration
first become aware that fraud risks were escalating in Minnesota’s
Childcare Assistance Program? You were kind of an outlier in the
whole country.
Governor WALZ. Well, thank you, Congressman. This dates back
to about 2012, that the action has been being taken. And as I stat-
ed earlier, on our first days in office, we started taking action. I
would ask, if I could, on this, anything that Governor Walker did,
I would appreciate if you would show us what those actions were.
We are more than happy to implement them, and that is what we
have started over the last seven years.
Mr. GROTHMAN. Reports indicate that some providers continued
receiving payments even after the fraud concerns were raised. Was
that a decision made by your Administration, and who specifically
you feel did not——
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak specifically to which those were.
Decisions are made at the department level, but I cannot speak to
what those allegations were.
Mr. GROTHMAN. We are told it was still 11 percent under your
Administration. When fraud indicators appear in a program funded
by Federal taxpayers, do you believe the responsible action is to
pause payments until those concerns are investigated?
Governor WALZ. I do not think it is that simple. As I said, these
programs provide a really important service, and childcare is a crit-
ical one. The issue is trying to make sure the legitimate payments
are made and that you are stopping fraud, so I do not think in all
cases that pausing those payments is the right action.
Mr. GROTHMAN. Okay. Just in general, I will say when the fraud
percentage beats 11 percent in Minnesota and we got it down
73
under one percent in Wisconsin, I think it is a cause for concern.
I will give you another question because a little bit of this hearing
wandered a little bit to what happened in your streets out there.
When any agency comes to Wisconsin, any Federal agency—I have
talked to several of our sheriffs, could be ICE, could be Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, could be FBI, could be Secret Serv-
ice—our sheriffs always try to coordinate with the Federal agen-
cies, ask them what they need. Do you need us to set up a perim-
eter? Can we help you by transporting people to the local jail? Do
you just want some squad cars parked around to presumably keep
troublemakers at bay? That was not done in Minnesota like it is
routinely done in certainly all——
Governor WALZ. I do not think that is a correct characterization.
I think Tom Homan indicated that those things do happen and
have been happening.
Mr. GROTHMAN. During the time in which you had the serious
riots or whatever you want to call them in Minnesota, I believe
that you did not reach out for your state law enforcement to help
out Federal law enforcement, in part because you are a sanctuary
state and——
Governor WALZ. That is incorrect. Tom Homan indicated we are
not. I do not know what to tell you, Congressman. We did. We
want to cooperate. That is not what you saw on the streets.
Mr. GROTHMAN. Right. Right. We did not see cooperation.
Governor WALZ. You saw ICE agents shooting people in the
head. You saw little children being drug out. You saw ICE agents
indiscriminately throwing smoke grenades. And I think what the
world saw was peaceful resistance and a defense of their neighbors,
so this is not about immigration reform. This was about an un-
trained force that came in, not with the intention of immigration.
Mr. GROTHMAN. I would say that you did not have the inter-
action between local law enforcement and Federal agencies that is
routinely seen around the country. Thank you.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. The Chair recog-
nizes Ms. Brown.
Ms. BROWN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thirteen months. Thir-
teen months into the Trump’s Administration, and this Committee
has failed to hold one hearing or one open investigation to hold this
President accountable. It makes you wonder, are we the Oversight
Committee or the Overlook Committee because there is no shortage
of matters that demand our attention. I can share a few that come
to mind.
This is a President who has turned the White House into an
ATM, and in Trump’s Washington, the fastest path to a pardon or
a position is to donate to Trump’s ballroom or Inauguration. Last
year, the Trump family added billions to its net worth through pay-
for-play schemes and corrupt deals. Last month, the President
surged ICE into Minneapolis in an abusive operation that led to
American deaths and repeated violations of constitutional rights
under the First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments. Also last month,
the Administration struck shady oil deals after the Administration
invaded Venezuela.
Two weeks ago, the President blocked a Michigan bridge from
opening after he was reportedly lobbied by a wealthy businessman
74
who owns a competing bridge. Last week, the President launched
a war on Iran without the consent of Congress, without an immi-
nent threat to our safety, and without any plan presented to the
American people. And right now, hour by hour, this Administration
is engaging in an active and egregious coverup of the Epstein files.
Yet today, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are once
again showing they are more interested in partisan politics than
good governance. If you are serious about fraud, you investigate it,
you prosecute it, you strengthen safeguards to prevent it. What you
do not do is weaponize it. You do not denigrate entire communities
with racist smears. You do not unleash abusive enforcement ac-
tions that undermine trust and due process. You do not illegally
cutoff all Medicaid funding, which will lead to innocent and sick
Americans dying. Dying. And you do not fire Inspector Generals
[sic] and push out career prosecutors actively working to defeat
that fraud.
So, AG Ellison, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Minnesota has at
least six prosecutors resign due to the chaos ICE has cause. Can
you briefly describe how these resignations have affected our abil-
ity to prosecute fraud?
Mr. ELLISON. Thank you, Congresswoman, and, in fact, it is a
great deal more than six prosecutors. It is many more than that.
In fact, one of the prosecutors who resigned in protest was one of
the ones who helped to lead the prosecution of the Feeding Our Fu-
ture defendants. Fifty-seven have been convicted. So, the loss of
those people is dramatically harming our effort to prosecute fraud
because in Minnesota, we have 87 county attorneys, the AG does
Medicaid fraud, and the Federal Government prosecutes fraud that
is germane in its jurisdiction. It operates as a web together, so it
is not like the feds are doing it and nobody else is. They are doing
the ones they supposed to do, we are doing the ones we supposed
to do, and the counties are doing the ones they supposed to do.
If you take the feds out, that leaves an enormous gap, and crimi-
nals are shrewd. I mean, the reality is that fraudsters are pretty
smart, and some of them are clever and know that if the prosecu-
tors numbers are depleted, you are going to see worse behavior.
And I do fear that, which is one of the reasons why we need to pass
stronger legislation in Minnesota to help my office prosecute Med-
icaid fraud.
Ms. BROWN. Thank you, and there is deeper hypocrisy here. Don-
ald Trump was found guilty by a jury of his peers on 34 felony
counts of fraud. He has pardoned a businessman convicted of de-
frauding a Native-American tribe to the tune of $60 million. He has
pardoned a Florida CEO convicted of running $1.3 billion Medicare
and Medicaid fraud scheme. He has pardoned a nursing home exec-
utive who pleaded guilty to a $38 million tax scheme. I could go
on and on. In fact, over half of the President’s pardons have been
for wire fraud, securities fraud, tax fraud, bank fraud, and
healthcare fraud, and several of these pardons have come after
massive political contributions to the President. In many cases,
these pardons meant victims will never see a dime of restitution.
House Judiciary Committee Democrats estimate the pardons for
fraud-related crimes could deprive victims of more than $1 billion
owed to them and American taxpayers. So, this President is par-
75
doning his wealthy donors and taking money out of the pockets of
hardworking Americans. He is handing out get-out-of-jail-free cards
to fraudsters while shamelessly using fraud as a pretext to go after
perceived political enemies.
What I believe is simple. Whether you are a President, a billion-
aire, or a regular American who has committed fraud, you should
be held accountable, and with that, I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Palmer from Alabama.
Mr. PALMER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing.
I appreciate the witnesses being here. I do want to respond to
something that was said earlier by one of my colleagues across the
aisle about fraud in Alabama, and he actually raised the question
why isn’t the Governor of Alabama here? It is very simple. Ala-
bama actually did something about the fraud in SNAP benefits. We
acted on that immediately. I would argue that if the State of Min-
nesota had done that, this hearing would not be necessary.
So, I want to ask you, Governor Walz, is it true that your De-
partment of Education was sued by Feeding Our Future for racial
discrimination in approving food sites?
Governor WALZ. I do not know exactly what they were sued for,
but I know there was a suit.
Mr. PALMER. Didn’t the Department of Education have serious
concerns about fraud, though, in Feeding Our Future and their
sites as far back as 2020?
Governor WALZ. That is correct, Congressman. They brought it
to the attention of the USDA.
Mr. PALMER. And didn’t your Department of Education deter-
mine there was fraud occurring because of incredibly large, implau-
sible reimbursement request?
Governor WALZ. Well, I think at the time during the COVID pan-
demic, there was how these meals were being delivered and what
safeguards—because as you know, the USDA changed the rules on
these to make it easier for food to get out.
Mr. PALMER. Yes, but one of the fraudster sites, Safari Res-
taurant, claimed that they served the same number of meals in one
month as the entire St. Paul School District. In their transcribed
interview, your Commissioner of Education said that this would be
impossible. Governor Walz, you were an educator. Is it plausible for
a single restaurant, whose owner has already been convicted and
is in jail for fraud, was actually serving that number of meals?
Governor WALZ. I think that is why he went to prison, if I am
not mistaken.
Mr. PALMER. Yes, but the question would be, why didn’t the
State of Minnesota—wasn’t that a Federal conviction?
Governor WALZ. It was turned over by the state. It was the state
that found it. The folks at the Department of Education turned it
over with our Federal partners, and they prosecuted them.
Mr. PALMER. Well, when we had the hearing with the state legis-
lators, I mean, without exception, they all testified that they were
bringing this to the attention of the state, and the state was not
doing anything about it.
Governor WALZ. Those legislators run the Committee, the over-
sight Committee. They never held a single hearing until just very
76
recently, and the chairwoman of that Committee is running for
Governor. So, I cannot speak to why, but I can tell you that we cer-
tainly tried to address——
Mr. PALMER. But you cannot politicize something that was re-
ported years ago. I mean, you could argue that she anticipated that
you would resign or retire, or however you want to characterize it,
but I doubt that was the case. I want to be as respectful as I can
be, and, you know, we have served together. I am not one of these
guys that is trying to score political points. I try to solve problems,
but I do not think we can have a transference here of intention for
one legislator that you say is running for Governor when these
issues were raised years ago.
Governor WALZ. And prosecuted years ago.
Mr. PALMER. Well, not all of them because the fraud continued,
and it has run into the billions of dollars now. I mean, the two peo-
ple that were convicted in Federal Court, that was $250 million,
but we now know that this has gone into the billions, and the ques-
tion—and, again——
Governor WALZ. Congressman, can you tell me where the evi-
dence is on the $9 billion because we are looking for it and we are
doing what we can. I mean, all the local press and all the folks in
Minnesota are saying that is not the case. You know, every dollar
you put out there, if you say it could be fraud, but there is no evi-
dence to that. And the problem with that is, and this story came
out last week, people in the U.S. Attorney’s Office said, when you
are putting out these numbers that are not true, it undermines our
ability to tackle the actual fraud.
Mr. PALMER. I did not say $9 billion. I said that I think it is run
into the billions, and that is not just in Minnesota. Again, during
COVID, the fraud was massive throughout the country——
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. PALMER [continuing]. Particularly in the Payroll Protection
Plan and the enhanced unemployment. I think it begs the question,
Mr. Chairman, of why we have not been more aggressive in going
after this all over the country. The fraud that was mentioned by
my colleague was SNAP benefits, and that is in California, his own
state. It is $180 million, but to California’s credit, they are doing
something about it. So, that is the issue here. I am not interested
in scoring political points. I am trying to stop the fraud.
Governor WALZ. I appreciate that, Congressman.
Mr. PALMER. I am trying to get to a place where the public, in
terms of state and Federal spending, has confidence that we are
properly managing the money and, wherever fraud occurs, that we
are aggressively pursuing it. I think that is the question that has
been raised about how your Administration handled this. Mr.
Chairman, I yield back.
Governor WALZ. But I would just say that is fair enough, Con-
gressman. I think that spirit is what we are trying to get at. I do
think it is nationwide. I think we should share information. I think
we are being as aggressive as possible, but fair enough.
Ms. BROWN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to seek recognition for
a unanimous consent request. I ask unanimous consent to enter
into the record a June 17, 2025, memorandum from the House Ju-
diciary Committee Democrats titled, ‘‘House Judiciary Committee
77
Democrats Memorandum Regarding President Trump’s Pardons
Cheat Victims Out of an Astounding $1.3 Billion in Restitution And
Fines, Allowing Fraudsters, Tax Evaders, Drug Traffickers To Keep
Ill-Gotten Gains,’’ which estimates the——
Chairman COMER. That——
Ms. BROWN. I am sorry—‘‘Which Estimates That Trump’s Reck-
less Pardons Robbed Victims and Let Perpetrators Walk Away
Without Paying $1.3 Million in Restitution Funds.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. BROWN. Thank you.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Ms. Stansbury from
New Mexico.
Ms. STANSBURY. Good morning. Good afternoon, as it is. Mr.
Chairman, thank you for having this hearing. I know has been a
long morning for everyone here as witnesses today, and it has been
a long several months for the people of Minnesota. We thank you
for your service.
Now, let me just start by saying at the beginning of my com-
ments here what I said at the beginning of the last hearing that
we had on this exact same subject, which is that we must un-
equivocally root out waste, fraud, and abuse, and prosecute any
crimes wherever they happen, whether those crimes are happening
in social service programs at the state level, or whether we have
an out-of-control President and Administration that is committing
crimes, waste, fraud, and abuse inside the White House and within
our Federal agencies, including deploying thousands of armed
agents into our communities, using per diems that are costing mil-
lions of taxpayer dollars every day, to terrorize our communities,
to violate their civil rights, to violate due process rights, and that
have resulted in the murder of two U.S. citizens.
And so, my question is, why are we not conducting oversight over
that? Two U.S. citizens that have been murdered by the Federal
Government.
[Photo]
Renee Good, a Minneapolis mom, murdered.
[Photo]
Alex Pretti, a Minneapolis VA nurse murdered.
[Photo]
Nurul Amin Shah Alam, a partially blind refugee in Buffalo,
New York dead after being left in a parking lot by DHS without
even a pair of shoes on.
[Photo]
The kidnapping of children like Liam Ramos.
[Photo]
And an Administration that has launched an unauthorized war
in the Middle East with six service members dead and over 160
school children and their teachers dead and buried yesterday.
Never in my life have I seen a greater disregard for the Constitu-
tion, for the rule of law, for the carelessness for human life and
basic human dignity, and senseless cruelty than I have seen in this
Administration, whether that is at home or abroad, and they can-
not answer the most basic questions about why.
[Photo]
78
And meanwhile, people who should be investigating these crimes
are partying and drinking on taxpayer dollars.
[Photo]
We have got the U.S. DOJ AG refusing to release the Epstein
files or even acknowledge their basic human dignity.
[Photo]
And yesterday, the Secretary of DHS testifying and lying under
oath in the U.S. Senate, refusing to acknowledge Alex Pretti and
Renee Nicole Good’s death, its murder, and the harm that she per-
sonally has caused by calling it domestic terrorism. That is what
we should be investigating and the billions of taxpayer dollars that
are being used to support this cruelty and out-of-control Adminis-
tration.
Now, I know it has been a long day, and, Mr. Ellison, I know you
have had a long day especially. I want to say thank you for your
service, Governor. You have inspired the Nation by helping to orga-
nize, along with the faith community, our communities in resist-
ance, in strength. And I agree with you, Reverend, that silence is
complicity, and that is why we have to speak. And so, Mr. Ellison,
I just want to ask you one question. What do you think Congress
should be investigating? What should we be investigating here
today?
Mr. ELLISON. Congresswoman, I would be very grateful if the
Committee really dug into the use of force policy at ICE. I think
it needs greater training. I think it needs, clearly, better guide-
lines. I think there needs to be a policy of cooperation between
state and Federal investigators and in the FBI. And I think there
should be a general policy that leaders not make statements about
blame or guilt, you know, immediately after the tragedy, and they
should try to wait and figure out what actually happened before
they make those kind of statements that you identified.
Ms. STANSBURY. Thank you, AG, and I will just say this. I have
heard a lot of political theater here today. I think it is disgraceful.
Our job is the Oversight Committee. Our job is to oversee the Ad-
ministration and the agencies that it executes on, and we are fail-
ing the American people, and this Administration is failing the
world. With that, I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentlelady yields back. I might add that
it is my understanding the Homeland Security Committee is inves-
tigating the two deaths in Minnesota. The Chair now recognizes
Mr. Fallon from Texas.
Mr. FALLON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walz, do you
believe the 70,000 strong Somali community as a whole has made
a positive impact on your state?
Governor WALZ. I do.
Mr. FALLON. So, you would be of the opinion and fair to say that
the Somali community has successfully assimilated and is making
Minnesota better?
Governor WALZ. Yes. I believe they are on that path, yes.
Mr. FALLON. I am just curious by what metric you would come
to that conclusion. I just looked at some hard data, and do you
have any idea what percentage of the native-born Minnesotans, all
races, live in poverty in your state right now?
Governor WALZ. I do not have specifically percent.
79
Mr. FALLON. I will share it with you. It is 8 percent. For the So-
mali community, it is 52 percent. How about receiving food stamps?
Governor WALZ. I do not——
Mr. FALLON. All right. I will run it down with you. It is 7 per-
cent, and then compared to 54 percent in the Somali community.
And then do not have at least a high school diploma, for all Min-
nesotans, it is 5 percent, Somali community, it is 39 percent. One
family member at least on Medicaid, it is 18 percent from Min-
nesota, 73 percent for the Somali community. And receiving wel-
fare of some form, it is 21 percent, and it is 81 percent for the So-
mali community. Governor, do you happen to know what the per-
centage is of all those who have currently been charged in this
staggering social services fraud scheme were native-born Minneso-
tans? What percentage?
Governor WALZ. I do not have that.
Mr. FALLON. I think it was 85 out of 98, which comes out to 13
percent Minnesotan and 87 percent Somali/Minnesotan. So, I think
this is an instance perhaps of where woke gets slapped by data.
Governor, there has been billions stolen over 7-plus years right
under your nose, and, really, there are only two explanations. It is
either you were in on it, or you were not smart enough to see it.
It is either criminal negligence or wild incompetence. And the only
way this kind of fraud can reach this scale is if there are people
in power that are colluding and collaborating and willfully blinding
themselves to the realities around them.
And in Oversight, when we do investigations, it is rare for us to
have whistleblowers because they face retribution and punishment
and resentment, and they can be ostracized, and it is difficult and
it is uncomfortable, and sometimes it is even dangerous. So, when
we are having an investigation and we have even a couple of whis-
tleblowers, it is very valuable to us because they provide invaluable
insight. Do you have any idea how many whistleblowers from Min-
nesota or working with the Oversight Committee?
Governor WALZ. I do not. We have our own strong protections on
the OLA, the independent——
Mr. FALLON. Well, it is 30. I mean, I have not seen that in 5-
plus years in Congress. Thirty. Governor, on September 16, 2025,
did you announce your reelection bid?
Governor WALZ. Pardon me?
Mr. FALLON. On September 16, last year, did you announce it?
Governor WALZ. I do not know the exact date.
Mr. FALLON. In September, roughly the fall of last year——
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. FALLON [continuing]. Did you announce you are running for
Governor again?
Governor WALZ. I believe that is correct.
Mr. FALLON. Okay, and I think you said in your quote here, ‘‘We
have made historic progress, but we are not done yet,’’ and then
just 3-and-a-half months later on January 5, you dropped out. I got
to ask you why. I mean, were you tired of making historic
progress?
Governor WALZ. No, Congressman, I think I have done the job
for two terms and talking with my family, and I said I want to
focus on doing the job, not running.
80
Mr. FALLON. It did not have anything to do with this epic, his-
toric, awful fraud.
Governor WALZ. It has everything to do with trying to do the job
right for Minnesota.
Mr. FALLON. The facts are your leadership and really your lack
of leadership has been responsible for one of the largest ripoffs of
the American taxpayer in our history. And you traded, I believe,
the currency of political expediency for your integrity. And, you
know, Mr. Chairman, I do not know if you know this, but it is been
widely reported that in 2008, when Barack Obama was choosing
his Vice Presidential candidate, he had three criteria. He wanted
to make sure he picked somebody that was not as smart as him,
and had less talent and charisma, and could not possibly outshine
him, so he picked Joe Biden, and then Joe Biden in 2020 used the
exact same criteria. He wanted to make sure he picked somebody
who was not as smart as him, had less talent and charisma, and
would not outshine him, and he picked Kamala Harris. And then
in 2024, Governor, I think it is very evident why Kamala Harris
picked you. The talent pool, Mr. Chairman——
Governor WALZ. I would not know, Congressman.
Mr. FALLON. Mr. Chairman, the talent pool is not just shallow.
Brother, we have hit the shore, and I yield back.
[Laughter.]
Chairman COMER. The gentlemen yields back. The Chair recog-
nized Mr. Subramanyam.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, I have some con-
cerns about not just the tactics of ICE in Minnesota and every-
where. I have concerns about the fact that Renee Good and Alex
Pretti were killed, and there has been no real investigation by Fed-
eral law enforcement and Federal authorities. And so, I would ask
Attorney General Ellison, do you know if the FBI is actually inves-
tigating what happened?
Mr. ELLISON. Thank you for the question, Congressman. The in-
formation we have is that there was an affirmative statement by
Deputy AG Todd Blanche that they were not investigating the
Renee Good matter. On the Alex Pretti, we received information
that was similar and that there might be an investigation, but that
the state would be excluded. So, in the first one, they are not doing
an investigation and we cannot have the information. In the second
one, they might be doing an investigation, and the state cannot be
part of it.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. And I know this is asking for your opinion,
but why do you think they would want to exclude the state in the
Alex Pretti investigation?
Mr. ELLISON. Well, you know, I do not want to speculate as to
what somebody’s motives might be, but I can just tell you this. It
is a sharp departure from the norm. Normally, we investigate these
things jointly, and when somebody does not want another investi-
gator there, sometimes you might wonder if there is something that
they do not want to come out.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. It is my understanding that the Federal Gov-
ernment is better positioned to do such an investigation and to be
able to prosecute such crimes because there might be Federal im-
munity. It is my understanding Federal agents are typically im-
81
mune from state prosecution if their actions were directly tied to
official duties. What is your understanding of that?
Mr. ELLISON. So, my understanding starts with the supremacy
clause in the U.S. Constitution, and then there is a line of cases.
The first one is something called In re Neagle, and then there are
a number of cases after that. What it says is that if a Federal
agent arguably commits a crime and is indicted or charged, that
agent, the Federal agent, would have an affirmative defense of say-
ing that I was doing my job and I was doing it in a necessary and
proper way, what I was doing was necessary and proper. If they
can meet both of those criteria, a court might grant their motion
to dismiss. If they cannot, the matter is going to face a jury. Matter
of fact, you may remember the case involving Randy Weaver in
Idaho. That case actually was cleared by the Ninth Circuit to go
to trial, but the local authorities decided not to pursue it.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. To prosecute Renee Good and Alex Pretti,
you would need evidence, right?
Mr. ELLISON. Yes.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. Has the FBI or anyone given you or been
able to cooperate with you on any evidence in this case?
Mr. ELLISON. No. At this point, they have precluded the state
from access to the evidence, but there is a lot of other evidence out
there, and we are also pursuing all options to get access to the evi-
dence.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. Do you think with what you have now, you
could prosecute Renee Good and Alex Pretti at the state level?
Mr. ELLISON. I think, theoretically, it is possible, but I would
think it would be imprudent until you see the Federal file because,
you know, when you are a prosecutor, you should know the whole
file. You should have evaluated all the evidence before you make
a charging decision or bring a matter to the grand jury.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. Because my concern here is that not only are
these terrible things happening to U.S. citizens, but there is no ac-
countability, right? There is no mechanism. There is a coverup for
the people who are at ICE and other law enforcement who do the
wrong thing, and it is making everyone at those agencies look bad.
It is making our country look bad on the international stage. And
so, you know, we have legislation at the Federal level. I am a co-
sponsor of the Stop Excessive Force in Immigration Act. We are
trying to do things tangibly to make things better. We need some
support on the other side of the aisle, but certainly we are going
to push forward anyway. I guess I would end by saying, what
would you ask Congress to do to help get the accountability that
we are looking for, and I will ask either one.
Mr. ELLISON. I think that for anyone, Republican or Democrat,
hoping to get public trust restored to immigration agents, there
must be clear protocols regarding recruitment, training, and proto-
cols on use of force. There must be an investigation, states must
be involved, and there is more to be discussed.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. Governor Walz, you have 5 seconds.
Governor WALZ. I would agree with the Attorney General that it
is about restoring faith, that people do not trust what they are
doing, and we need them to be able to do their job.
Mr. SUBRAMANYAM. Thank you. I yield back.
82
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. I will now recog-
nize Mr. Burlison from Missouri and then Mr. Timmons from
South Carolina.
Mr. BURLISON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walz, we al-
ready know that the Minnesota Medical Assistance gives taxpayer
dollars to people that are not here legally, illegal aliens, and we
know that, in large part, your sanctuary city policies or sanctuary
state policies have exacerbated the fraud that we are seeing in
Minnesota. We know that just from conservative estimates alone,
that during the Biden Administration, we had an estimated 15 mil-
lion people come here illegally. Within your state alone, the esti-
mates from the Migration Institute and Pew Research is that it is
at least 130,000 people that are here illegally, and we know that
$250 million was stolen for the Feeding Our Future program. Are
you familiar with the fact that those working for the program and
individuals later convicted of fraudulent crimes met with Mr. Elli-
son in the, what has been talked about, the recorded conversation?
Governor WALZ. I believe the Attorney General just testified to
that, yes.
Mr. BURLISON. It was a 54-minute conversation, and in it the
conversation was recorded as an audio file. There was a FOIA re-
quest to get that information. He can clearly be heard pledging his
support to individuals who would soon become his family’s cam-
paign donors and later Feeding Our Future criminal defendants.
The ask occurs around minute 43:30. Specifically, the request for
him is, in the AG’s statutory role as the attorney for state agencies,
to intervene on behalf of these frauds. And at 44:26, Mr. Ellison
assures the fraudsters, ‘‘Of course, I am here to help,’’ and at 45-
minute mark, he says, ‘‘Let’s go fight these people,’’ these people,
meaning the agencies that were looking into the fraud. Have you
listened to this audio?
Governor WALZ. Today was the first time I have heard it. I am
familiar with it, and I do not know if I can validate that character-
ization.
Mr. BURLISON. If this is true, do you have concerns?
Governor WALZ. I am not going to speculate. Like I said, I cannot
characterize what it was.
Mr. BURLISON. Certainly you have heard the allegations that Mr.
Ellison was working with individuals, that people were trying to
reach out to him to try to avoid any kind of prosecution.
Governor WALZ. I do not know if I would characterize it like that.
I could not do that.
Mr. BURLISON. How would you characterize it?
Governor WALZ. I do not know. I was not there. I just heard the
clip you had.
Mr. BURLISON. How much fraudulent money has been recovered?
Governor WALZ. Oh, I do not have the number in front of me,
but——
Mr. BURLISON. I have heard the highest number is $80 million,
but I mean——
Governor WALZ. That could be. I cannot verify that.
Mr. BURLISON. So, it is reported that, at most, it is $80 million.
And as we know, the amount that has been attributed to fraud in
Minnesota alone is estimated, I think on the low end, the conserv-
83
ative side is $9 billion. I think the Trump Administration says $19
billion.
Governor WALZ. Congressman, I do not see anything to show
that, but what I have acknowledged is one dollar is too much. I
think the local people and the folks who are taking count of this
show it just at about $271 million.
Mr. BURLISON. Do you think the effort to return the money has
been successful?
Governor WALZ. I cannot speak to that. I do not have any part
in that.
Mr. BURLISON. I think that returning $80 million out of a, let us
say, assume it is just $9 billion, which would be .08 percent, less
than 1 percent of the money has been gotten back.
Governor WALZ. Congressman, no one is saying the $9 billion,
other than a potential for that, and that would mean every dollar
that is out there, and I think that was characterized last week by
the U.S. Attorney’s office as saying that that caused problems be-
cause there is no evidence to back that up. But I want to be clear.
That does not make it any better. I just want to be clear. I hear
you——
Mr. BURLISON. Right.
Governor WALZ [continuing]. On the $300 million. I think it
is——
Mr. BURLISON. Would you agree there is more work to do?
Governor WALZ. More work to do.
Mr. BURLISON. If you are at one percent or less than one percent,
there is more work to do.
Governor WALZ. I think if it is 99 percent, there is more work
to do.
Mr. BURLISON. Last week you stated to the press that you have
fired people who were not doing their jobs. Is that correct?
Governor WALZ. What I stated was, is that people have been put
into new positions.
Mr. BURLISON. Okay.
Governor WALZ. We removed people from positions.
Mr. BURLISON. So, you did not fire anyone?
Governor WALZ. People stepped away.
Mr. BURLISON. People just shuffled the decks on the Titanic.
Governor WALZ. I think they left. They left state government.
Mr. BURLISON. Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield
back.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. The Chair recog-
nizes Mr. Timmons and then McGuire.
Mr. TIMMONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the
witnesses for being here today. Governor Walz, under your leader-
ship, Minnesota has become the poster boy of fraud in America. Be-
tween the Feeding Our Future scheme and massive, widespread
fraud in autism and childcare programs, your tenure will be de-
fined by immense negligence, costing taxpayers at least hundreds
of millions, if not billions of dollars. In 2019, in the first months
of your Administration, your legislative auditor found serious
weaknesses in the Childcare Assistance Program, including inad-
equate attendance verification, repeat bad actors cycling through
the system, weak enforcement, and employees who feared retalia-
84
tion for raising concerns. Those warnings were specific, they were
actionable, and they were documented, and you were already in of-
fice at this time. If, as you say, the buck stops with you, Governor,
it is unclear when the buck actually stopped.
In your written testimony, you listed multiple actions you have
taken to curb fraud, yet clearly they were insufficient. As Min-
nesota ended up with 14 Medicaid programs deemed high risk, rep-
resenting over $18 billion in spending. The buck did not stop when
whistleblowers were silenced years ago. It only stopped when you
realized the fraudsters were drawing attention from people that
you could not intimidate into silence. Fraud of this magnitude does
not happen overnight. It builds slowly, and it is the result of insti-
tutional failures and poor leadership. So, Governor, my question is
simple. If the buck stopped with you, as you said, who failed be-
tween 2019 and 2022, and why were they not held accountable?
Governor WALZ. Who failed in what, Congressman?
Mr. TIMMONS. This fraud has been growing until recently——
Governor WALZ. Well, this is the thing——
Mr. TIMMONS [continuing]. And you have been Governor for
many years.
Governor WALZ. No. Well, thank you for the question, Congress-
man, and I would disagree with your characterization, obviously.
And the legislative auditor, I do not know what the time period
they investigated. Those usually come months after they did it. We
took office in January 2019 and immediately started acting on
what the OLA, the Office of Legislative Auditor, an independent
branch, started asking us to do, where we started changing the
programs.
Mr. TIMMONS. That is not what the record reflects. The record re-
flects that there were all of these whistleblowers and they were
being intimidated because alleged racism was the motivation be-
hind the degree of enforcement.
Governor WALZ. Congressman, I have never had a chance to
speak to these folks. What I will say is that, and my time in Con-
gress proved that, strongest whistleblower protections we can pos-
sibly have. We have plenty of opportunities.
Mr. TIMMONS. We are not talking to every other state. We are
talking to Minnesota because of the rampant fraud. So, look, three
members of the——
Governor WALZ. Is there no fraud in any other states?
Mr. TIMMONS. Three members of the Minnesota State House of
Representatives who all served on the Fraud Prevention and State
Oversight Policy Committee, gave transcribed interviews that con-
firmed that your Administration was aware of the fraud happening
in the state, yet chose not to act due to fear of political repercus-
sions, and intentionally silenced whistleblowers who have tried to
come forward.
Governor WALZ. Well, that is incorrect.
Mr. TIMMONS. Mr. Chairman, I am going to enter this in the
record, ‘‘Roadmap to Program Integrity and Fraud Prevention.’’ It
is a report, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman COMER. Without objection.
Mr. TIMMONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
85
This report relays that several current and former Department
of Human Services employees have described messaging from DHS
leadership that emphasize compassion over compliance. So, the
former leaders have said that DHS should be guided by 70 percent
compassion and 30 percent compliance. And then in 2023, DHS,
public presentation, leadership encouraged employees to embrace a
60/40 mindset. Again, that is 60 percent compassion and 40 percent
compliance. I want to have as much compassion for people that
need social safety nets. Like, I want to have a hundred percent
compassion, but we also have to have a hundred percent compli-
ance——
Governor WALZ. Right.
Mr. TIMMONS [continuing]. Or work as hard as we can to get
there. And as you sit here today and after acknowledging how
widespread and pervasive fraud is in Minnesota, how should your
state employees prioritize program compliance? What is your mes-
sage to people now relative to this compassion compliance ratio?
Governor WALZ. Well, I think I agree with you on this, Congress-
man. I do not think it is an either/or choice. We are not going to
stop these programs. We are not going to stop being the top state
for children in the country, but we need to make sure if we are
going to continue those programs that we need to have fraud pre-
vention and program integrity in. So, I agree with you. It is not an
either/or, and it is not a percentage.
Mr. TIMMONS. In order to give the benefits to the people that
need them most, we have to be good stewards of tax dollars.
Governor WALZ. That is right.
Mr. TIMMONS. And for every dollar that is stolen through waste,
fraud, and abuse, that is a dollar that cannot go to people that
need it most.
Governor WALZ. I agree with you.
Mr. TIMMONS. So, we need to prioritize compliance, make sure
that we have the least amount of fraud possible, and with that, Mr.
Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
Governor WALZ. I agree, Congressman.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. Next is Mr.
McGuire from Virginia, then Mrs. Luna.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon to our
witnesses. Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, what year
were you made aware of rampant fraud in your state?
Governor WALZ. Well, Congressman, I think——
Mr. MCGUIRE. The Committee has spoken to nearly 30 whistle-
blowers, most of which are current employees in your Administra-
tion. Based on these transcribed interviews, you were both made
aware of the rampant fraud in your state around 2019–2020.
Governor WALZ. Did they make the——
Mr. MCGUIRE. Governor Walz, do you know who Janelle Sky
Hanson is?
Governor WALZ. I do not. I was going to ask you——
Mr. MCGUIRE. Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to enter
into the record article from CARE 11 titled, ‘‘CARE 11 Investigates
Evicted Homeless Paying the Price for Minnesota’s Fraud Crisis.’’
Chairman COMER. Without objection, so ordered.
86
Mr. MCGUIRE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Walz,
Janelle Hansen, who goes by the name Sky, has autism. In June
2025, Sky, who was living in an apartment paid for by Integrated
Community Supports, was evicted by police because her caregivers,
American Home Healthcare, LLC, who were subletting her apart-
ment, stopped paying their rent. This provider claimed to provide
this woman with 12 hours of daily individual services and billed
ICS on an average of nearly $12,000 a month when she only
interacted with them two hours per day. Because of this fraud, the
woman has been homeless for eight months. In fact, while Sky is
homeless, the owner of American Home Healthcare LLC lives in a
high-end Maple Grove home, which has an indoor basketball court.
State Medicaid billing data shows since 2022, American Home
Healthcare has been paid more than $2.2 million in public funds.
That is $2.2 million that was taken fraudulently from the tax-
payers to pay for a man to live in a lavish home while people like
Sky are left to live on the street.
Governor Walz, this is despicable. You have a duty to serve the
Minnesotans, and you failed. You failed to protect these individuals
like Sky who needed it the most. I have had constituents tell me
that after seeing all the fraud that has come to light in your state,
that they are not sure if they are paying taxes or if they are paying
criminals.
Governor Walz, Attorney General Ellison, yes or no, does your
Administration take whistleblower report seriously? Yes or no.
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison, yes
or no, do you believe that when faced with a whistleblower, the cor-
rect course of action is to retaliate against them and suppress their
concerns?
Governor WALZ. No, of course not. It is illegal to do so.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Governor Walz, yes or no, are you aware of any
instances of employees in Minnesota’s Department of Human Serv-
ices being threatened and intimidated with military surveillance to
ensure they stay quiet about fraud?
Governor WALZ. I am not.
Mr. MCGUIRE. This is a picture of an email from Emmanuel
Nowala, the DHS manager, who has since been promoted to the
leadership role. This email shows clear proof that threatened em-
ployees with military surveillance including, ‘‘I did intelligence re-
search with the Army and give them IP addresses and email ad-
dresses to track specific locations.’’ Governor Walz, yes or no, are
you aware of this email?
Governor WALZ. I am not.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Governor Walz, Mr. Nwala stated in the email
that he was asked by upper leadership to hold off as they are doing
their own thing on it. What did they mean by that?
Governor WALZ. I could not say. I am unfamiliar with it.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Was upper leadership doing their own military
surveillance on whistleblowers to intimidate employees and to stay
quiet about rampant fraud?
Governor WALZ. I do not believe they would.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Moving on. Governor Walz, yes or no, do you
agree that it would be intimidation to confront a whistleblower
87
with photographs of their car, their house, and monitor their phone
and computer, and ask which schools their children go to?
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Governor Walz, yes or no, did the DHS investiga-
tors direct you to participate in these intimidation attacks against
whistleblowers?
Governor WALZ. Could you restate the question, Congressman?
Mr. MCGUIRE. Were you directed to intimidate these whistle-
blowers?
Governor WALZ. Of course not, no.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Governor Walz, who is Shireen Gandhi?
Governor WALZ. She is the current Commissioner of the Depart-
ment.
Mr. MCGUIRE. In her transcribed interview, Ms. Gandhi con-
firmed that DHS used outside entities to investigate DHS staff.
Governor Walz, I think it is clear to the American people that your
Administration did not take whistleblowers seriously and, even fur-
ther, cultivated an environment of fear to intimidate employees
from going public with the truth about the rampant fraud in your
state and under your failed leadership. Governor Walz and Attor-
ney General Ellison, your incompetence and inaction to stop perva-
sive fraud when you were first alerted not only defrauded tax-
payers of $9 billion, but you have also failed to protect those who
truly needed these services such as Sky. Because of your failed
leadership, that woman was evicted from her apartment and home-
less on the street for eight months. Leadership matters.
Now, Governor, you abandoned your troops before deployment,
right before they deployed. You told your law enforcement not to
cooperate with Federal agents, which led to a lot of the problems
in your state that you do not see happening around the country,
and you abandoned Minnesota by allowing this fraud to continue.
And so, I am so glad that you have decided not to run——
Governor WALZ. Congressman, that is untrue.
Mr. MCGUIRE [continuing]. For reelection as Governor, and with
that, I yield back.
Governor WALZ. Congressman, did you do 24 years in the mili-
tary, because I did. Was that not long enough for you?
Mrs. LUNA. I am sorry. You are now interfering with my
time——
Chairman COMER. The Chair——
Mrs. LUNA [continuing]. But as a veteran, he is a veteran, too,
I do not think that you need to compare service. No one is discred-
iting your service, but I think they are discrediting your ability to
lead your state to protect against fraud, sir.
Governor WALZ. My credit was being questioned, and I did
24——
Mrs. LUNA. So, with that, Chairman, I would like to have my
time.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Mrs. Luna from Florida.
Mrs. LUNA. Thank you, Governor Walz.
Governor WALZ. Chairman, I would ask the ability to——
Mrs. LUNA. My line of questioning is not for you. Please do not
interfere with the witness’ time. It is for your Attorney General.
88
Chairman COMER. He did not ask a question, so it is Mrs. Luna’s
time.
Mrs. LUNA. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to be
very clear about why we are here today and why both of you should
be concerned. I have already sent criminal referrals to Attorney
General Pam Bondi recommending that both Governor Walz and
Attorney General Ellison be investigated and prosecuted under 18
U.S. Code 371 and 18 U.S. Code 2. The U.S. Attorney Office esti-
mates up to $9 billion in taxpayer money has been stolen on your
watch, Governor Walz. Not a rounding error, not a typo, $9 billion,
and both of you knew.
Mr. Ellison, there is a widely reported recording of a meeting be-
tween you and Feeding Our Future on December 11, 2021. At that
meeting, those individuals that you were speaking to told you that
the state investigators looking into fraud were acting in a ‘‘racist
manner,’’ and your response was, and I am quoting directly from
the recording, ‘‘Let’s just go fight these people.’’ I want to ask you,
what do you mean by ‘‘fight these people?’’
Mr. ELLISON. Congresswoman, first of all, this matter I have re-
sponded in writing to this Committee.
Mrs. LUNA. Mm-hmm.
Mr. ELLISON. I have written an op-ed about this matter. I have
gone through several committees, one in the state, one in the Fed,
one in the Senate——
Mrs. LUNA. Mm-hmm.
Mr. ELLISON [continuing]. Now here today, and it is very clear
that these people were clearly liars. They were lying to me. They
lied to judges. They lied to the state agencies. They were
fraudsters. Everyone agrees that they are fraudsters, and, look——
Mrs. LUNA. If I could, just because I limited on time, though, I
want to see, and I understand what you are stating. You are saying
that you were essentially lied to, but in responding to them, and
the reason I am questioning on this is because I had the privilege
of questioning some of your state legislators that were Republicans,
and they did feel that both you and the Governor were covering up
what was happening with the fraud. So, I want to specifically, who
were you referencing when you said, ‘‘fight these people?’’ If you
could, just keep it short.
Mr. ELLISON. Congresswoman——
Mrs. LUNA. Was that your own state?
Mr. ELLISON. Congresswoman, these people represented them-
selves to be business people who were having difficulty with the
bureaucracy.
Mrs. LUNA. Okay.
Mr. ELLISON. They contacted me and they wanted to know, you
know, can you possibly help us. What I did is investigate their
claims and then worked with the Federal authorities to see 57 of
them convicted of crimes——
Mrs. LUNA. Okay.
Mr. ELLISON [continuing]. And about, I think, more than 80 now
indicted. So, these people presented themselves as someone need-
ing help and honest business people. They were not what they
claimed to be——
Mrs. LUNA. Okay. So, just——
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Mr. ELLISON [continuing]. And we helped them get convicted as
they well should be.
Mrs. LUNA. Thank you for clarifying, but just to be clear, it
would be the bureaucracy, would you say, within your own state?
You were saying fight these people as in the bureaucracy within
your own state, correct?
Mr. ELLISON. Congresswoman, I was in Congress for 12 years.
Mrs. LUNA. Thank you for serving in Congress.
Mr. ELLISON. And I did constituent services all the time——
Mrs. LUNA. Okay.
Mr. ELLISON [continuing]. Working with people.
Mrs. LUNA. So, I am not going to get anywhere on this question.
That brings me to my next thing. Do you believe that it is racist
to investigate someone of fraud because they are of Somalian de-
scent? Yes or no.
Mr. ELLISON. Ma’am, I believe that anybody who commits fraud
of any background should be investigated and held accountable.
Mrs. LUNA. Okay. Well, I would actually agree with you on that
one, so thank you for clarifying. But to be clear, those individuals
that you told the Department of Human Services, were basically,
it was racist then if you were looking into it for fraud, you took
that meeting, you made that promise, and then it turns out that
the billions of dollars in fraud continued. And I hate to bring this
up because I am a parent, but your own son also received dona-
tions from those same individuals. Imam Omar, the man that in-
vited you and is listed a partial owner of an entity that was used
to launder over $40 million in Feeding Our Future funds.
I would say that you did mislead the public. Whether or not you,
at the time, realized what they were up to, the fact is, is that you
were then presented with the evidence, and it does feel, and ac-
cording to your own state legislators, that you did not take that se-
riously enough. In my opinion, if you have that——
Mr. ELLISON. I will disagree, ma’am.
Mrs. LUNA. I am telling you what my opinion is. I do not believe
that that was a question, but I do believe, based on the recording,
based on the fact that you were personally tied to it, and based on
the fact that your family then had ties to it as well, seems a little
sus. Aside from that, though, you are telling the American people,
essentially, that maybe you did not know about it when dozens of
your own employees were afraid being labeled as racist or
Islamophobic if they stayed silent. And so, I just want to be clear
about something. You stated and you agree that anyone should be
investigated based on, you know, regardless of their background,
but the fact is that your own employees came forward and were ac-
tually afraid of actually looking into that fraud because they did
not want to be labeled as Islamophobic or as maybe as even
xenophobic.
So, you dismissed this, as President Trump said, as politicizing
the issue when $9 billion is not a political talking point. It is an
embarrassment. The American people see what is going on, and
this is fraud. I would say, and I would also advise the Attorney
General to look into our criminal referrals. I do not believe that you
guys could say that you did not know what was happening because,
frankly, even if, let us say, giving you the benefit of the doubt, you
90
might not have known, you guys still chose to turn a blind eye to
it. Thank you, Chairman. I yield my time.
Chairman COMER. The gentlelady yields back, and before I recog-
nize Mr. Langworthy, our last questioner, I want to say Congress-
man Jack is on the Rules Committee, and everyone knows that
they put in long hours. He is actually managing the Floor. If he
does not make it back in time after Mr. Langworthy, I want to put
into the record Representative Jack is leading debate on the Floor,
but will submit his questions for the record. So, with that, I recog-
nize Mr. Langworthy from New York.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Gov-
ernor, you have served as Governor of the State of Minnesota for
nearly seven years. Why did it take you until 2023 to launch an
investigation under an Inspector General into this massive fraud
that has been uncovered?
Governor WALZ. I do not believe that timeline is correct, Con-
gressman. As I said, we were making changes, and this has been
being worked and these cases have been brought forward years be-
fore.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. But your Administration did hesitate for years
to fully investigate this fraud. Was it because you were concerned
about, you know, you are the de facto leader of the Democratic
Party of Minnesota as the Governor. Were you concerned about the
political consequences within the Minnesota Democratic Party’s
voter coalition?
Governor WALZ. No.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. Did that lead to you making that mistake, be-
cause trying to——
Governor WALZ. Yes.
Mr. LANGWORTHY [continuing]. Listen to the answers today and
come up with a conclusion as to why you would turn a blind eye
to this for so long when so many people from your partners in gov-
ernment across the aisle, but also people at the street level saw
this fraud going on in plain sight.
Governor WALZ. Well, we did not, and I know that the rest of the
country saw this recently, and what I would ask you, Congressman,
is what benefit would there be to that? Just assume there are no
ethics involved, which I have a long history here of doing that.
There is certainly no benefit in taking money from programs that
I have advocated for that make Minnesota the best state to live.
And so, we worked it from the beginning. And look, these folks con-
tinue to move. They are a moving target. We went back to the leg-
islature asking for more tools. We went back last year and asked
for more tools, and now what is great is Republicans are actually
supporting those things that we put forward. So, as soon as we——
Mr. LANGWORTHY. Well, Governor, Republicans came to this
Committee last month and testified to the fact that they have been
trying to get people’s attention in power in Minnesota for a long
time.
Governor WALZ. I would disagree with their characterization.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. Well, so you state that, unequivocally, there
was no political consideration based on constituents in the Demo-
cratic Party to turn a blind eye.
Governor WALZ. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
91
Mr. LANGWORTHY. Now, that is interesting, Governor, because
your first reactions in December 2025 were to call taxpayer con-
spiracy theorists and dismiss concerns about the $9 billion in fraud
as white supremacy. And, you know, on December 23, you stated,
‘‘This is what happens when they scapegoat, and this is what hap-
pens when you no longer hide the idea of white supremacy.’’ You
immediately went there, and——
Governor WALZ. I believe I was speaking about the ICE invasion
and Metro Surge. I am unfamiliar with where you are quoting
from.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. No, this is when this fraud was uncovered.
Knowing now that those people were correct, would you apologize
to those constituents for classifying them?
Governor WALZ. I am unfamiliar with what you are asking for.
I have heard today attacks on the Somali community that I would
view as racist trope thrown at the Somali community.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. Okay. Governor, I understand you need to
deny and deflect, and, you know, your stories are pretty legendary
at this point, but while you were looking the other way at fraud
that took place on your watch, you and your ticket mates in the
Democratic Party in Minnesota get somewhere between 80 and 90
percent of the vote in Somali-heavy precincts. In your reelection,
the gentleman sitting next to you won his last election by a mere
21,000 votes. It seems to me and conventional wisdom here would
be that you were willfully ignorant to these crimes in return for a
community support.
Governor WALZ. That is totally false, Congressman. That accusa-
tion is totally false. I won by, I do not know, ten points, hundreds
of thousands of votes.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. He won by 21,000.
Governor WALZ. But that accusation, throwing that around, we
came here to help and work with you to try and find solutions to
the problem.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. We are talking about $9 billion in fraud. Your
entire state budget is only $65 billion. I mean, this is a massive
problem.
Governor WALZ. Do you have the spreadsheet on that Congress-
man on the $9 billion?
Mr. LANGWORTHY. You have rattled off about ten different num-
bers today. You clearly do not have a handle on the numbers ei-
ther, and you need a serious accounting effort in the State of Min-
nesota right now.
Governor WALZ. Congressman, I have given you the numbers to
the best of my ability.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. It is my time, not yours. Do you believe that
your inaction in the first term to prevent fraud and the Childhood
Nutrition and Childcare Assistance Programs gave the green light
to other scammers to commit housing and Medicaid fraud in your
second term?
Governor WALZ. No, I do not believe that.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. And once again, your words say one thing,
and your actions say something different. You came into office after
several multimillion-dollar fraud scandals on the heels of a 2018
92
report alleging that over $100 million was being defrauded from
taxpayers annually, and you did nothing, and in 2020——
Governor WALZ. That is not correct——
Mr. LANGWORTHY [continuing]. After hearing about potential
fraud with Feeding Our Future, you did nothing.
Governor WALZ. That is incorrect.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. And, Governor, you knew and did nothing to
stop autism payment fraud. Its annual expenses inexplicably in-
creased from $6 million to $192 million in just five years, and you
did nothing to stop housing stabilization, Medicaid fraud, which
has topped $100 billion, and you did nothing to stop daycare fraud,
an issue that is already costing taxpayers millions when you were
sworn into office. Are you familiar with Article VIII of the Min-
nesota Constitution?
Governor WALZ. I am not, Congressman, but I will give you this.
Doing nothing, you are in the right job for that in this Congress.
I disagree with that entire characterization. No, I am unfamiliar
with that.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. It seems like you have created a State of Min-
nesota that you are free to come and set up shop——
Governor WALZ. It ranks at the top of almost every category.
Mr. LANGWORTHY [continuing]. And make fraud.
Governor WALZ. It ranks at the top of nearly every category and
quality of life.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. A real big, bold one after what we have uncov-
ered here today.
Governor WALZ. I think the country has seen what Minnesota is
made of.
Mr. LANGWORTHY. Article VIII states that Minnesota officers, in-
cluding the Governor, may be impeached for malfeasance or non-
feasance in the performance of their official duties. While billions
of dollars of taxpayer money were allowed to be lost to fraud, whis-
tleblowers were ignored. It is extremely well documented, and
those people were punished and you had a direct political benefit
to this fraud. That is an impeachable offense. Mr. Chairman, I
yield back.
Chairman COMER. The gentlemen yields back, and I think you
heard the bell. I know votes are being called. So, the Ranking
Member and I have deferred any closing statements until we come
back.
I want to thank our witnesses for being here. We appreciate your
testimony. Hopefully, you all will read the Committee report and
protect the whistleblowers, and, hopefully we can hold some people
accountable who have committed fraud.
Pursuant to the previous order, the Committee will recess for
Floor votes. We plan to reconvene right after the vote series.
The Committee stands in recess. Thank you all.
Governor WALZ. You want us back?
Chairman COMER. The witnesses can be excused. Thank you all.
[Recess.]
Chairman COMER. I am going to gavel the Committee back to
order. I know there are some Members that are still coming back
from the Floor, but we are going to go ahead and go through the
bills, and then we will vote on them if there is any debate.
93
First motion is a Krishnamoorthi motion pertaining to the Home-
land Security Secretary. The motion is debatable. Do any Members
seek recognition on the Krishnamoorthi motion? Anybody seek rec-
ognition? The Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs.
Mr. BIGGS. This is for Secretary Noem. Is that correct?
Chairman COMER. This is for Secretary Noem.
Mr. BIGGS. So, she has been testifying down and is continued on
in Judiciary, and it is, quite frankly, hard for me to imagine that
there would be anything new that my colleagues across the aisle
would want to ask her. So, it just seems to me like this is——
Chairman COMER. Would you yield to a question, Mr. Biggs?
Mr. BIGGS. Yes. Sure.
Chairman COMER. Did anyone during your Judiciary hearing
today ask about Minnesota and all of that?
Mr. BIGGS. Yes, Mr. Chairman, to both of those, Minnesota and
all of that, so.
Chairman COMER. Okay. So, she answered all those questions.
Mr. BIGGS. Yes, Mr. Chairman, she did, and I thought she was
also cooperative because a number of my colleagues across the aisle
asked her for more information. She is going to provide more infor-
mation, and it just seems to me like this is deleterious and duplica-
tive, and it would be a waste of time. So, with that, I would oppose
this subpoena and yield back.
Chairman COMER. Okay. All right. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Look, I think that
in this Committee, we have obviously touched on topics that are
covered in other committees, including immigration, including
other matters that have overlapping jurisdiction. But what has
happened with ICE and CBP and DHS, not just with regard to ex-
cessive use of force and the Operation Midway Blitz or Metro
Surge, but also the waste of money and government resources mer-
its its own kind of examination in this Committee. So, that is why
of all the committees, I think this one has the broadest jurisdiction
and the one that is most concerned about rooting out waste, fraud,
and abuse, and we have seen that in the DHS.
Chairman COMER. Okay. All right. The gentleman yields back. I
am next going to recognize Mrs. Luna, and I think she may have
an announcement.
Mrs. LUNA. Oh, well, thank you, Chairman. First of all, I think
that we are the greatest Committee in Congress, and so I think
that we have purview over every single branch, division, et cetera.
So, I want to talk to everyone, and I think that these are all valid
concerns for Members of Congress to want to speak directly to the
secretaries. But I did also, too, do what some people do not do in
Washington, and I picked up the phone and called Homeland, and
Secretary Noem has agreed to have us, all the Members, over to
Homeland to answer any questions that we may have. So, that op-
tion stands, and I will be taking full advantage of that not next
week as we are out of session, but as soon as we get back. And so,
with that being said, I think that that pretty much says that there
is no need for a subpoena. She will come in, and she will answer
questions and/or have us over there, and you have stated that you
would coordinate.
94
Chairman COMER. Very good.
Mrs. LUNA. So, I yield. Thanks.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Burchett from Ten-
nessee.
Mr. BURCHETT. I was going to ask Mrs. Luna, will there be food?
Mrs. LUNA. I think we can arrange something.
Mr. BURCHETT. All right.
Mrs. LUNA. Maybe Chick-fil-A, if everyone tired of Chick-fil-A.
Mr. BURCHETT. I am so dadgum tired of chicken.
Mrs. LUNA. Okay. Maybe some vegan?
Mr. BURCHETT. Give me a pizza with some meat on it.
Mrs. LUNA. Vegan is good, you know.
Mr. BURCHETT. No.
Chairman COMER. Any other Member seek recognition on the
Krishnamoorthi?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. All right. All those in favor of the
Krishnamoorthi motion, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman COMER. All those opposed, signify by saying no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman COMER. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it,
and the motion is not agreed to.
Mr. GARCIA. Yeas and nays, please.
Chairman COMER. Okay. A recorded vote has been ordered. All
votes will be rolled to the end of this debate, which hopefully will
be pretty soon.
The next motion is the motion by Ms. Mace referencing Pam
Bondi, the Attorney General. This motion is debatable. Do any
Members seek recognition?
I will comment on it. Or do you wish recognition?
I had a phone call with the Chief of Staff for the Attorney Gen-
eral, and the Attorney General has offered to give Members a brief-
ing, a few at a time to come into the Department of Justice and
get a briefing on where they are with respect to Epstein documents
and anything else pertaining to that. So, I am certainly interested
in getting a briefing from the Attorney General.
Mrs. LUNA. I also think that maybe we have questions about An-
thony Weiner, but that is separate.
Chairman COMER. That what?
Mrs. LUNA. Anthony Weiner’s laptop?
Chairman COMER. Me?
Mrs. LUNA. Just in general.
Chairman COMER. Okay.
Mrs. LUNA. I think she will be willing to answer any questions.
Chairman COMER. All right.
Mrs. LUNA. Thank you.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member.
Mr. GARCIA. Thank you. I want to support Representative Mace’s
motion for the Attorney General. Look, the American public have
significant questions about the DOJ and their process for releasing
of the files. I think the Attorney General has gone to speak obvi-
ously to other Committees. I think it is important that she is in
front of our Committee. She can directly answer questions about
95
the release of the files, about transparency, of ensuring that vic-
tims and survivors are protected. And so, we certainly support Rep-
resentative Macy’s motion as it relates to bringing the Attorney
General here to have a hearing in this Committee, and if there is
other opportunities to speak with her, we would welcome those as
well.
Chairman COMER. Any other Members seek recognition?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. Seeing none. All those in favor of the Mace
motion, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman COMER. All those opposed, say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman COMER. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it.
The motion is not agreed to.
A recorded vote has been ordered. All votes will be rolled to the
end of the debate, okay?
Now, the next motion, Number 3 of 4, is Ms. Mace, the Mace
Number 2 pertaining to her issue, and I will yield to Ms. Mace.
Ms. MACE. This would be a subpoena for information on the Sex-
ual Harassment Slush Fund. I want those documents and informa-
tion related to it and Members that were included in it.
Chairman COMER. Okay. The Chair recognizes the Ranking
Member.
Mr. GARCIA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have some com-
ments on Representative Mace’s motion, and then I would want to
offer just a slight amendment to it, which I think would help pro-
tect certain staff, and I just want to just kind of clarify first. I want
to appreciate the actual effort. I think that, obviously, there should
not be funds to protect any Member of Congress that has been en-
gaged in any type of sexual harassment or abuse of anyone, so I
do appreciate that effort.
Now, we have heard some concerns from the Office of General
Counsel that the breadth of this motion covering Members, Sen-
ators, staff, Library of Congress staff, Government Publishing Of-
fice (GPO), Government Information Online (GIO), Capitol Police,
and other entities, and employees covered within the actual motion
makes it more likely that the Office of congressional Workplace
Rights could push back based on some confidentiality language.
Also, there is some concern from our Members that it does not pro-
tect staff enough, that there could be a chilling effect on staff. I un-
derstand the intent of the motion. So, Congresswoman, I just want
to add, if you would be willing to accept this amendment, we think
this would clarify this.
Mr. Chairman, I would move the Committee issue—I am sorry,
let me look here. Oh, Mr. Chairman?
Ms. MACE. Can I copy the language because my language redacts
names of victims of witnesses.
Mr. GARCIA. Correct. Correct. There are still some concerns. Let
me just offer the amendment to see if you are amenable to it.
Mr. Chairman, I move the Committee—I am sorry. One second.
Where did it go? Right here? Here it is. At the end of your mo-
tion——
96
Ms. MACE. They are trying to cover for their pathetic floor vote
just now.
Mr. GARCIA. So, Representative Mace, at the end of the motion,
we would add this language, and I am happy to pass this out,
which we are putting out right now. At the end of the motion, we
would add, ‘‘The awards and settlements will be limited to a pay-
ment made for an award or settlement in connection with the claim
alleging a violation committed personally by an individual, who at
the time of committing the violation, was a Member of the House
of Representatives, including a delegate or resident commissioner
to the Congress, or a senator.’’ Are we okay with that?
Ms. MACE. Yes, I am fine with the language, yep.
Mr. GARCIA. Okay. That is something that we believe that we
could support. This amendment, of course, would limit this to
Members, Senators, and with that, I would recommend that we
vote yes to support this amendment.
Chairman COMER. Officially making an amendment?
Mr. GARCIA. That is the amendment to add to the motion.
Chairman COMER. Mr. Garcia would like to amend the motion
basically to exclude staff.
Mr. GARCIA. So that we can actually focus this on who I think
the Representative is trying to get to, which is Members and Sen-
ators.
Ms. MACE. Mr. Chairman, he is using language out of, basically,
Rule 23 of the House Rules, so I am fine with that, limiting it to
House Members, Senators, et cetera. I am good with this.
Chairman COMER. Okay. So, the amendment has been offered. I
guess the debate is now on the amendment to the motion. I saw
Luna then Biggs. Luna?
Mrs. LUNA. All right. I support Representative Mace’s subpoena
here as well as the amendment to it, and I just think it is really
disgusting how this institution protects itself because you all, just
half of them, voted to send this stuff to House Ethics where you
know it is going to die. We know that Members of Congress are
using taxpayer dollars to pay off sexual harassment. We just had
a Member of Congress literally sexually harass a woman that then
lit herself on fire, and you guys all protected him. You guys all pro-
tected, my own side, your side.
And so, if you guys want to talk about victims, if you want to
go out and virtue signal, and then you guys are going to kill her
stuff on the Floor and then try to pass it, yes, of course we should
subpoena all of this stuff. But just I am not going to sit here and
play games. I think it is a complete fraud. I think that is why the
American people hate us. I think the midterms are coming up, and
everyone should go on record for this, and I hope that Members are
exposed for this. I hope it goes back, I think, to the 70s because
it is wrong that it is happening. It is wrong that we cover up for
it. It is wrong that we cannot center our own side because people
are busy making deals because you guys do not want to center your
side. It is a deal that has been cut, and people hate us for it. So,
yes, I support it.
Ms. MACE. Thank you, Representative Luna.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Biggs.
97
Mr. BIGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question because
I want to make sure that I understand it. On the second line of
the motion, where it talks about for the awards or settlements
paid, that seems to me that it would exclude allegations which
have been unproven or unsubstantiated or unresolved through an
award or settlement. Is that right?
Ms. MACE. Yes, the word, ‘‘allegation,’’ would include allegations,
yes, not just things that have been completed. It is allegations.
Mr. BIGGS. But it does not say that. It says——
Ms. MACE. Oh, it is just final settlements.
Mr. BIGGS. Yes. It says awards or final settlements.
Ms. MACE. Yes.
Mr. BIGGS. So, I just want to make sure that that is the case.
Ms. MACE. Yes, correct.
Mr. BIGGS. Okay.
Ms. MACE. And I am good with the amendment.
Mr. BIGGS. I am all in on the underlying, and I am actually okay
with the amendment, although I do think it narrows it more than
perhaps I would like to see, but I will yield it back to you, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Khanna, then Ms.
Boebert.
Mr. KHANNA. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to recognize
Representative Mace’s courage, first, in standing up for the disclo-
sure of the Epstein files so we do not protect pedophiles, and now
she is saying the same thing. Let us not protect people who sexu-
ally harass in the U.S. Congress, and she is saying——
[Applause.]
Mr. KHANNA. And she is saying let us have Pam Bondi tell us
why half the files are still hidden. I do not understand how anyone
on this Committee cannot vote yes on both of those motions. It is
about transparency. It has nothing to do with being a Democrat or
a Republican. It is about going after predators and people who are
sexually harassing, and that is what the American people expect,
and I appreciate Representative Mace’s commitment to that trans-
parency.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Ms. Boebert.
Ms. MACE. Thank you, Mr. Khanna.
Chairman COMER. Boebert.
Ms. BOEBERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank
Congresswoman Nancy Mace for introducing this privileged motion.
I think at this point, this is something that should be introduced
on a weekly basis. I am absolutely disgusted that we could not
even get to 50 Members of Congress who want immediate trans-
parency. Don’t we all campaign on transparency? Don’t we all go
out and tell the American voters that we are leaders and that we
are going to get justice for them, that we are going to do right by
them, and then we hire their daughters to come work for us, and
your tax dollars, millions and millions of dollars has been used in
this slush fund as hush money to silence victims who have been
sexually harassed, sexually abused by Members of Congress. And
then Congress is going to do exactly what it does best—investigate
itself—and we know that none of that ever goes anywhere.
98
The American people demand transparency, and this does not
just pertain to a ranch in Arizona or New Mexico or an island down
in the Virgin Islands. This is happening right here in our Nation’s
Capital, and we should be held to the highest standards. And to
every Member who voted to send this to Committee where you
know this was sent to die on the House Floor just moments ago,
I hope you have a darn good reason to tell your constituents why
you were not going to stand up for the victims. And I am glad that
we are doing something about it here in the Oversight Committee.
I am glad that this motion was made here so we actually have an-
other chance at transparency.
But again, these are your tax dollars. These are your tax dollars
that were used to silence victims. They have been settled with vic-
tims. And to the Members who voted against this, go home and tell
your daughters what you did today. Go home and tell your daugh-
ters what happens in the workplace, no matter where it is, in your
hometown, in your Nation’s Capital, and tell them what you did to
help continue to cover up decades of corruption. I am absolutely in
favor of this motion. Thank you, Congresswoman, for bringing this
up. I yield.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Donalds, then Mace.
Mr. DONALDS. Thank you, Chairman. This is really more a ques-
tion on the, I am assuming, an amendment to the motion?
Chairman COMER. This is the Garcia Amendment to exclude
staff.
Mr. DONALDS. All right. So, I guess my question for Mr. Garcia
is, why are we going to make a limitation on staff? If congressional
dollars have been utilized for the purposes of, essentially, trying to
cover up or cure harassment that has occurred, why are staff mem-
bers being exempted from that level of transparency?
Mr. GARCIA. No, I think that is a good question. So, in our con-
versations with the Office of General Counsel, I think the one con-
cern, and it has been brought up by some Members as well, is that
there are some staff in congressional offices and other places, they
have made settlements for a variety of different reasons. And the
concern is that they, in a process of disclosure, could be unpro-
tected from their settlement process that they agreed to, and the
Office of General Counsel is unclear that they would have protected
in those cases. And so, that is the concern. At the end of the day,
I think the intent is this is for Members of Congress and for Sen-
ators, so that is the one thing that we are trying to clarify.
Mr. DONALDS. And I——
Mr. HIGGINS. Does the Ranking Member yield for a question?
Mr. DONALDS. Hold on, and I appreciate that, but I guess what
I am trying to understand is if that is the standard for a staff
member, that there was a settlement based upon the reasonings
that you said, but that same level is not for the Member, whether
for the Member, whether they are a current Member or a previous
Member that has been in this body. I guess I am just trying to un-
derstand what the limiting principle is for what we are trying to
accomplish because if the goal is transparency to make sure that
harassment that has occurred on Capitol Hill is now transparent,
but that is only for elected Members, current and past, but does
not deal with staff members, both current and past, then I fail to
99
see how the level of transparency is being arrived at with the mo-
tion.
Mr. GARCIA. No, I appreciate it. Can I say one more thing? I
think this is a good back-and-forth. I think the other issue is there
is some concern that staff members that have, on their own, agreed
to a settlement, and if there is additional disclosure in a settlement
that they negotiated for a variety of different reasons, if they were
the actual victim, that this would cause a chilling effect in small
legislative offices.
Mr. DONALDS. No, I understand that, but by that logic, that
would occur throughout the entire Capitol Complex under that
logic because if you are going to say that in a small legislative of-
fice, well, let us be clear: half of the House has small legislative
offices. If that is the case, would not that same logic proceed to the
Floor of the House and the Floor of the Senate? And mind you, I
am in favor of the motion, I am in favor of transparency, but I am
trying to ascertain, are we trying to create a limit to that trans-
parency for the stuff that, to be blunt, is just hot topic, or are we
trying to have transparency?
Mr. GARCIA. No, can I respond one more time? So, I actually
think this is an important debate as a piece of this. I am going to
support the motion. We want to support the motion. As Democrats,
we know what she is trying to get at here. We want to support it.
What we are trying to do is address a real concern of some of our
Members and the offices that we are talking to about could this
have a chilling effect on certain small offices that have gone into
settlements? That is what we are trying to eliminate. I think the
focus here is on Members of Congress and Senators. I think this
amendment tries to address that. Either way, we are going to sup-
port the final motion. I certainly am. And so, I just wanted to pass
it along. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. Mr. Donalds, would you yield for a few sec-
onds?
Mr. DONALDS. Yes, sir.
Chairman COMER. I just want to say I agree with you. I think
if we are going to do this, we do not exclude anyone. If we are
going to disclose the settlement, let us disclose every penny where
it went, even if it went to staff because at some point, people are
going to say the amount of money that was paid out, and I have
no idea how much was paid out. I do not know a single person that
was paid, other than maybe the former Member from Texas a few
years ago, but they are going to say a dollar amount, and every-
body is going to assume it was all Members. Well, it could have
been 25 percent Members, 75 percent staff, or it could be a hun-
dred percent Members. I say disclose the whole thing. So, I oppose
the Garcia Amendment, but I yield back to you, Byron.
Mr. DONALDS. I mean, Chairman, I guess my question would be
for the original sponsor of the motion, Ms. Mace. I guess I am try-
ing to understand where we are taking this, and when it comes to
the transparency aspects, I am a hundred percent for that. We
should do that.
Ms. MACE. Then vote for it.
100
Mr. DONALDS. But Nancy, I am not saying I am voting no. Like,
I am for it, but I am trying to understand why is it okay to say
just the Members and not staff if those things——
Ms. MACE. It is ‘‘Congresswoman Mace.’’ I do have a title like ev-
erybody else in this room. We are talking——
Mr. DONALDS. Come on, Nancy. I mean, we are just trying to
have a conversation.
Ms. MACE. It is ‘‘Congresswoman Mace.’’
Mr. DONALDS. I am trying to get an ascertation.
Ms. MACE. I have earned a title, and I watched the majority of
men in this body just vote down a measure——
Mr. DONALDS. Nancy, I have——
Ms. MACE [continuing]. To not disclose sexual harassment
records——
Mr. DONALDS. Congresswoman Mace, I have never disrespected
you at all.
Ms. MACE [continuing]. Of Members of Congress.
Mr. DONALDS. I am not being disrespectful. I am trying to get an
ascertation.
Ms. MACE. You just disrespected me as a woman.
Mr. DONALDS. No, I did not. You are taking it too far.
Ms. MACE. Do the taxpayers pay your salary?
Mr. DONALDS. I am trying to get an understanding of that what
we are doing here. That is all I am saying.
Ms. MACE. The taxpayers pay our salary——
Mr. DONALDS. The core question——
Ms. MACE [continuing]. And taxpayers paid out these settle-
ments.
Mr. DONALDS. Reclaiming my time now.
Ms. MACE. Well, you are over time now.
Mr. DONALDS. The core of the question is, why is it okay for a
limitation just to Members if these dollars have been paid on be-
half, potentially, of staff, both currently on Capitol Hill and pre-
viously employed on Capitol Hill.
Ms. MACE. Look, I am in favor of——
Mr. DONALDS. If we are seeking transparency, what is the limit?
Ms. MACE. I am in favor of full disclosure, but if the other side
of the aisle is concerned about legal limitations in disclosing and
it not working, then I am okay with focusing on just on Members
of Congress of both bodies, the House and the Senate. If you would
like to do your own amendment or do your own subpoena after-
wards, then do that too, but this thing has to pass. I mean, the
American people—we expect the American people to be held ac-
countable to a totally different standard, and now we are saying,
oh, because we do not have staff included, we are just going to vote
this thing down. I am talking about Members of Congress, bodies
in this House, bodies in the Senate. That is where the focus should
be because the taxpayers are paying our salaries, and if this thing
fails because of a technicality, then that is a failure of the Amer-
ican people, is where I am going with it.
I want this thing to pass. I would like it to be unanimous. I
would like both parties to vote for it, especially after the abject fail-
ure we just saw on the Floor just now.
101
Mr. DONALDS. Well, I am a minute and 30 over, so I am going
to reclaim. All I am going to say, if there is a technical concern,
then what we are saying also is that the technical concern is not
universal, that we are now picking and choosing what the technical
concern is. And if we are going to now lay motions for this trans-
parency, I would just say we should actually examine. According to
what the Chairman is saying, are we going to be consistent, or are
we not, and that is all I am saying. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Min from California.
Mr. MIN. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have a brief comment, and
I do not particularly have any skin in the game on this one. I voted
no on the motion to refer earlier, but I would just say there is a
very clear difference between those of us who are Members and our
staff, which is we are public figures. We run for office. Our staff
did not choose to be in the limelight. They did not choose to take
on this burden. So, when you look at what private companies do,
what government officials and staff do in other situations, they are
typically not disclosed in the way this bill would do. I think we are
unique in that we are running for office every two years. I think
that we have additional responsibilities and a higher moral calling
and a higher moral level we have to adhere to because we are so
powerful.
So, I support the motion because I think there are legitimate
legal issues with disclosing staff. At the same time, I support the
base motion, whether or not this amendment passes.
Mr. BIGGS. Would the gentleman yield.
Mr. MIN. With that, I yield back my time.
Chairman COMER. The gentleman yields back. The Chair recog-
nizes, I think Dr. Foxx, then Clay Higgins.
Ms. FOXX. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman COMER. Yes?
Ms. FOXX. As someone else said, I do not really have a big dog
in this fight or anything, but if Mr. Garcia might take a friendly
amendment to his amendment. If there is concern about trans-
parency related to non-Members, could we ask in the amendment
that we get a report on an amount of money that might have been
given out in relationship to non-Members? And then if there seems
to be a real problem there, that that could be then looked into by
this Committee. I am just——
Mr. GARCIA. I do not have a problem with that at all. I think
that is a fair request. I think that gives the Committee opportunity
to take a look at that number and see if there is other action that
needs to be taken.
Chairman COMER. So, let me get this straight. You are going to
make an amendment to the amendment, and your amendment is
that we have to disclose how much money was paid out to staff.
Ms. FOXX. Correct, and then——
Chairman COMER. Yes.
Ms. FOXX [continuing]. If this Committee thinks that is a sizable
enough amount——
Chairman COMER. I think that is good. If you would yield, I
think that is good because I do not want a number to come out and
everyone to assume a hundred percent went to Members. It could
be a hundred percent Members, or it could be——
102
Ms. MACE. Well, to Mr. Donald’s point, my staff just told me that
a fair share of the settlement funds were for non-Members.
Chairman COMER. Okay.
Ms. MACE. I do not know if it is 50 percent. I did not have that
information, with Capitol Police settling sexual harassment claims,
allegedly. I have a sheet in my office for Ms. Foxx after this that
goes through—just so everybody knows, this only goes up to 2018
because this program was ended after 2018, so this is more histor-
ical. But my staff just told me a fair share of the settlement pay-
outs, in some years it was $4 or $5 million dollars, were to people
who are not Members of Congress. So, I just got that piece of intel.
Chairman COMER. You support the Foxx amendment to the
amendment.
Ms. MACE. Repeat it again? What was the amendment to the
amendment?
Ms. FOXX. Well, what I would suggest, Congresswoman Mace, is
that, in order to sort of deal with the transparency issue, I would
like transparency, too, but that we go forward with the Garcia
Amendment so we are focusing only on Members, but we ask who-
ever it is we are asking to provide the total amount of money that
had been paid out for——
Ms. MACE. I am fine with that.
Ms. FOXX [continuing]. People other than——
Ms. MACE. And I actually have that list. I have that list by year,
but I am good with that amendment. If you want to do an amend-
ment to the amendment, I am fine with that, and I have a spread-
sheet, so.
Mr. GARCIA. We would support that.
Chairman COMER. Okay, and we are drafting the amendment up.
Ms. MACE. And walk humbly, Mr. Donalds.
Chairman COMER. So, we are going to move——
Ms. MACE. Walk humbly, Mr. Donalds.
Chairman COMER. If anyone else wants to talk about the amend-
ment to the amendment, I will recognize them. It is going to take
staff a few minutes to draft this up. Mr. Burlison.
Mr. BURLISON. I am getting a little bit confused, but I just want
to make sure, and I do not know who would be able to answer this,
but as long as—and, you know, and I did not even think about this
until this conversation happened. But as long as the public is able
to figure it out whether it was the Member who was the one vic-
timizing and the reason for the harassment or a staff-on-staff situ-
ation. I just want to make sure that that is——
Chairman COMER. Right.
Mr. BURLISON [continuing]. Able to be ascertained in whatever is
released.
Chairman COMER. Yes.
Mr. BURLISON. Mr. Garcia, do you understand my question?
Mr. GARCIA. I do, and I think that is why we are making the
amendment as well, is we want to be very clear this is about Mem-
bers of Congress and Senators. And I think that Representative
Foxx’s amendment clarifies that we would get a report on all other
settlements with numbers so that we can then have information to
make any additional motions.
103
Mr. BURLISON. I do think that that is good because if you have
a continuing problem in an office, even if the Member is not the
one doing it——
Mr. GARCIA. That is right.
Mr. BURLISON [continuing]. But they are not having oversight of
their staff in a proper way, then that is a problem. But I just want
to make sure it is transparent, whatever we are releasing, that,
you know, whoever the victimizer is, whether it is the Member or
their staff.
Chairman COMER. All right. Okay. Any other Members?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. So, do we have it typed up yet? I know we do
not. The amendment, can we do that or not? Does anyone object
if we go and discuss the Bell motion? Do you object, Ms. Tlaib?
Ms. TLAIB. No, just for clarification.
Chairman COMER. We are trying to type it up. That is why we
are——
Ms. TLAIB. I know.
Chairman COMER. Okay.
Ms. TLAIB. Are we exempting chief of staffs and things like that?
As an attorney that worked on these kinds of cases, sometimes it
is management positions that are considered staff, but, you know,
the Member looks the other way kind of thing. So, I am just cau-
tiously saying that I think Congresswoman Foxx is right in looking
at an amount, but really, should it be based on an amount or
should it be based on whether or not this person had a supervisor
position that is supervised by a Member? Does that make sense?
So, the Member is fully responsible for their chief, right, and I just
feel like, you know, some of the horror stories I have heard is a
Member knows, they kind of look the other way, and allow the per-
son managing their staff get away with it.
Chairman COMER. It sounds like——
Ms. TLAIB. Because I am all for protecting——
Chairman COMER. You oppose both amendments, but support the
bill.
Ms. TLAIB. No, I support it.
Chairman COMER. I just want to be——
Ms. TLAIB. I want to do it.
Chairman COMER. I think most people support the bill.
Ms. TLAIB. But I also——
Chairman COMER. I am just saying the——
Ms. TLAIB. I also as a——
Chairman COMER. You oppose excluding staff, and if you——
Ms. TLAIB. Well, this is the thing, as a person that——
Chairman COMER. And I feel that way, too.
Ms. TLAIB. As a person that was sexually harassed at work, I
had a supervisor who reported back to someone else, and probably
if I had known it would get information, I probably would not have
ever reported it. So, I get what our Ranking Member is saying be-
cause, especially when you are younger, okay? We are at a time in
our lives for my fellow sisters in service here, but for younger staff
members, this is scary to think about any of this information com-
ing out because no matter what you all think, it will impact their
future prospects. And especially if it is a small staff, they are going
104
to figure out who it is. It is just a ripple effect. So, I just want, as
we draft this, be very cautious in making sure we are not pro-
tecting people.
The goal is to have people that are fully ones responsible and
making sure and preventing this from happening, and that is the
Member, the Senator, and the House of Representatives Member,
but we got to make sure that, you know, in other situations where
a lot of this stuff can be enabled by the Member and not addressing
these issues. But at the same time, Chairman Comer, I do worry
about victims and folks coming forward——
Chairman COMER. Right.
Ms. TLAIB [continuing]. Not wanting to come forward because of
what we are trying to do. And we are trying to do this because peo-
ple are getting away with it, and Congresswoman Mace is right.
People are getting away with not being held accountable, and pay-
ing off folks, and looking the other way and, again, probably re-
peating their abuse afterwards.
Chairman COMER. All right. And since, now that Ms. Talib yields
back, the amendment is typed up. Everyone should have the
amendment to the amendment, and I will read it. The Foxx
Amendment, ‘‘included will also be an annualized list of the
amounts of awards and settlements paid to or on behalf of non-
member staff.’’ So, that is the amendment to the amendment. Does
anyone else want to debate the amendment to amendment? Dr.
Foxx?
Ms. FOXX. Well, the only thing I would like to say is I think Ms.
Talib is right about threats to younger women. And if a report
comes back that has a lot of money attached to it, says there is a
lot of money, then this Committee can go ahead and do some inves-
tigation. My point was, let us give an opportunity——
Chairman COMER. Right.
Ms. FOXX [continuing]. For the Committee to do more if it needs
to, but I think Mr. Garcia’s amendment is a good amendment to
narrow it now so we can move on. I think it is the best of both
worlds, I hope.
Chairman COMER. Okay. So, seeing no more, we are going to vote
on the——
Mr. HIGGINS. Mr. Chairman.
Ms. MACE. Mr. Comer, can I just say—oh, are we voting on the
whole thing right now?
Chairman COMER. No, no, no. We are voting on the amendment
to the amendment. That will be the process. Were you seeking rec-
ognition, Clay?
Mr. HIGGINS. Yes.
Chairman COMER. Okay. So, all those in favor. Oh, you have
a——
Mr. HIGGINS. I was seeking recognition.
Chairman COMER. Go ahead.
Mr. HIGGINS. I would just like to remind the Committee and
those present that we are once again presenting to the American
people that this is the way the Oversight Committee pursues a
subpoena, and this is not the way the Oversight Committee pur-
sues a subpoena. We are the Majority, and we generally will work
with the Minority party for an appropriate subpoena to be pre-
105
sented by this Committee. And, like, every time we have a hearing
now, an opportunity to be recognized is going to be some sort of
grandstanding subpoena, whether by the Majority or the Minority.
I think it is beneath the dignity and the procedures of this sub-
poena process that is longstanding established by this Committee
and the hard work that the Committee staff does to accommodate
the desires of a Member on either side of the aisle to pursue a par-
ticular subpoena.
This is not the way we normally do it, although this is becoming
the norm. And let me say that this amendment, as it is being
pieced together, is poorly assembled, and nobody really knows what
this thing is or what the impact will be. The good lady stated that
there could be absolutely some impact on staff, and people will fig-
ure out who is who because of small staffs and when the incident
took place.
And finally, let me say that the original motion to subpoena ref-
erences a date of December 12, 2018. Let me clarify. I had to ask
what was the significance of that date because that is when a law
was passed that changed the process to what we have right now.
But Americans watching this are saying, oh, you mean there is no
process in place on how to appropriately handle a complaint like
this, and there is. It is an administrative process that goes to Gen-
eral Counsel set up by the House since 2018 that handles this.
America, a Member is basically not involved. Now, I have never
been sued like this. I have been sued one time through the admin-
istrative process here in Congress is because I escorted the little
fellow away from a press conference one time.
[Laughter.]
Mr. HIGGINS. It was not a complaint from a staff Member. So,
I do not have intimate knowledge of the way this mechanism
works, but I do know that Members have very little to do with it.
It is handled by General Counsel, and then it will go to a district
court maybe if it passes through the preliminary review—that is
what it is called right now—by General Counsel of the House. Then
it can get to a district court where a Member may have his day in
court to defend himself or whatever.
So, I am opposed to this process, Mr. Chairman, of just thrusting
subpoena upon the Committee for debate like this that does not
have to happen. I understand that people have different motives
going on with why they support this and I do not know how I am
going to vote, but this thing is like woven together from three dif-
ferent pieces right now. You have the original motion, which no-
body really understands the impact of, you have an amendment to
the motion, then there is an amendment to the amendment of the
motion, and we are not sure what we are voting on right now, but
we know we are all supposed to vote yes because it has been thrust
upon us like this. I yield.
Ms. MACE. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. Well said, Mr. Higgins.
Ms. MACE. Mr. Chairman, I would like to respond.
Chairman COMER. I am supposed to recognize Krishnamoorthi
next. Krishnamoorthi?
Mr. KRISHNAMOORTHI. Mr. Chair, can we vote?
106
Chairman COMER. I would love to vote, but we have more Mem-
bers seeking recognition. Does any other Member seek recognition?
Mr. Turner and then Mr. Donalds. Okay.
Mr. TURNER. I just want to affiliate myself with Mr. Higgins’
statement. I was resisting saying anything about this whatsoever,
but this is a circus. This process degrades valid legislative proc-
esses. It reduces what is supposed to be substantive legal processes
that were debated and adopted by Congress without any reference
to any historical substantive legislative processes that have hap-
pened before Congress, and this is not how subpoenas or legislation
is supposed to be amended or addressed.
Now, regardless of whether any of these issues in the end are
valid or substantively important, this is not how they are to be
handled in addressing them. This becomes a circus. If this Com-
mittee is going to take up amending this legislation or addressing
this issues it is addressing, we should be having a hearing on
them. We should open it up. We should not be doing it in this man-
ner, but we are at this point now, Mr. Chairman, and we are well
down the road, but this has become a circus, and it is unfortunate.
Chairman COMER. Well said.
Ms. BOEBERT. Sexual harassment is pretty unfortunate, too.
Mr. TIMMONS. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes, I think, Mr. Timmons.
Mr. TIMMONS. Mr. Chairman, this is going to revictimize victims.
It is not possible to redact the information to a point that would
preclude anybody that has half a brain about how this place works
of figuring out who the person was that got the settlement, wheth-
er it was the Member or the chief or some other staffer within. I
do not know what the answer is to this. I am all for transparency,
but, I mean, if somebody is living their lives, this goes back eight
years. So, if you got somebody that something happened to ten
years ago and now they are going to have to start answering ques-
tions for it? They probably want their life to just go on as it is.
I mean, we did not take the necessary steps and a number of vic-
tims were revictimized because of how we went about with the Ep-
stein files. So, I think maybe we should learn from that and just
get this right. I do not know what the answer is. I am all for what-
ever transparency. If there is a victim out there that would love to
make a big deal about this ten years later and hold somebody ac-
countable further, great, knock it out. But I think for every one of
those people, there is going to be another person that would prefer
to never think about whatever happened again and enjoy the
money they got. So, I do not know what the answer is, but, I do
not think voting on—I mean, this is going to create more problems,
and I will definitely affiliate myself with Mr. Higgins’ remarks.
This is not how this is supposed to happen.
Chairman COMER. Well said. Mr. Donalds and Mr. Sessions?
Mr. DONALDS. I actually have a clarifying question on the Foxx
Amendment because as I read that to amend the Garcia Amend-
ment, in my reading, and I am not a lawyer, but I am trying to
understand this on the fly, it actually invalidates both amendments
and we are back to the original motion because if we are not going
to produce an annualized list of the awards paid to or on behalf of
non-Member staff, which non-Member staff, I am assuming, would
107
be any other employee in the Capitol Complex not in a Member of-
fice. That is what that says to me in lay terms. I think what we
are actually doing is we are getting back to the original motion of
Ms. Mace, so I am just trying to get clarity on that, Mr. Chairman,
before we vote this thing out.
Chairman COMER. I cannot clarify. I agree with some of the ear-
lier statements. This is not how we are supposed to operate. But,—
it is still Byron’s time. Are you still talking or——
Mr. DONALDS. I just want to know if somebody wants to answer
that.
Chairman COMER. Anybody want to clarify?
Mr. DONALDS. Or anybody who has any thoughts on that. Any-
body.
Mrs. LUNA. If I could just say, I think they are going to print it
out and vote your conscience, but I say do not support sexual
freaks or deviants and support the amendment, and let us get it
passed. Thank you. I yield.
Mr. DONALDS. But let us——
Mrs. LUNA. No to freaks, Byron.
Mr. DONALDS. Well, hold on now. Here is what we are going to
do now. I think it is important to understand exactly what we are
releasing. Like, I was fine with the original Mace motion, and then
we were told, no, we cannot do that because there is a chilling ef-
fect.
Chairman COMER. Right.
Mr. DONALDS. But the Foxx Amendment now kind of undoes
some of the chilling effect, the language that the Garcia Amend-
ment does. So, I do not think it is just as simple as saying, well,
just vote it out and be done. I think if we are going to do this,
Members have to think very clearly about what we are actually let-
ting through. I am fine with the original motion as it is. That is
my position.
Chairman COMER. Great.
Mr. DONALDS. And I just think that both motions really counter-
mand each other to a degree.
Ms. FOXX. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman COMER. Dr. Foxx?
Mr. DONALDS. I yield to Mr. Biggs.
Chairman COMER. So, okay. Mr. Biggs, there are still 3 minutes,
yes.
Mr. BIGGS. Yes. I am just trying to see if I could help clarify that
if you deleted the term, ‘‘non-Members,’’ and you just put ‘‘on be-
half of staff of Members of the Senate or House of Representa-
tives,’’ you know, you are talking about the staff of Members, would
that assuage your concern? I mean, I get what you are saying, and
this does kind of get messy, I think. I do think the lawyer in me
is saying, well, maybe we should get some precision in speaking,
and this might be a little bit more precise than the generic Foxx
Amendment. So, anyway. I yield back to you.
Chairman COMER. All right. Ms. Mace, would you—Dr. Foxx, do
you have anything to add, Dr. Foxx?
Ms. FOXX. Well, I would just say, I think Mr. Garcia’s amend-
ment is pretty clear. It is going after information about a settle-
ment made on behalf of a Member of Congress, whether it is to a
108
staff person of a Member of Congress or anybody else. I do not
think you have to say that it is a staff person here. It just says al-
leging a violation committed by an individual who was a Member
of Congress or a delegate or whatever. And then all I am doing to
assuage the concern about whether or not it casts too wide a net
in terms of people other than Members is to say, okay, well, we will
get a list of amounts of money paid out to other people, not staff
members, and then see if it is warranted to proceed. I am just try-
ing to move us off the dime we are on right now and then see what
else needs to be done. Nothing precludes further investigation.
Chairman COMER. The Chair recognizes—Mr. Sessions, did you
seek recognition?
Mr. SESSIONS. Yes, sir. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, probably only
this top row here back were there some ten years ago when this
was a big issue. Oh, Andy was here. Okay. Well, it was a very dif-
ficult issue. It was in the papers. It cost Members their jobs. Some
of it was true. Some of it was untrue. It really did not matter. You
were guilty if your name even appeared anywhere near it. There
were some good people who got hurt in that. They took their lumps
and they moved on. But there was an agreement that if you could,
and this was by men, women, both sides, that if you could engage
in this without public scrutiny. I think the fear at the time was it
would hurt someone that claimed this, and you wanted to protect
them also. And I just think that we should get into a circumstance,
perhaps like Chairwoman Foxx has said, let us go in and take a
look at this to where we know what we are talking about before
we do it.
But I do not think in any way that I would be for protecting
someone if they should not be protected, but there were things that
happened that we learned about at the time that were unintended.
And even the person who was harmed said, well, he may not have
meant it and maybe he did not, but I took it that way. And so, I
am just simply saying, I just think we ought to have a better idea
about what we are talking about here before we go in and assume
that there was a right and a wrong because it was meant to protect
people at the time. It was not a compromise. It was by agreement,
that at the time we did this, that there was agreement to it.
Mr. TIMMONS. Will you for one second?
Mr. SESSIONS. I would yield.
Mr. TIMMONS. I just want to point out that Congresswoman Mace
thought that it was appropriate to say, ‘‘With only redactions allow-
able for the personally identifiable information of victims, alleged
victims, and witnesses.’’ That is an illusory caveat because any set-
tlement that was made, you are going to have the quarterly disclo-
sure of the office. You are going to see who was there for one quar-
ter, then who was not there the next. So, this is an illusory redac-
tion, protection of victims and alleged victims, and I just think that
we need to be aware of that. If we are going to do this, I mean,
this is going to revictimize victims and that sentence should not be
in there because it is pointless, and it does not actually do what
she is trying to accomplish.
Mr. SESSIONS. And I think that is correct, and with great respect
to Nancy, she just learned some things today about the motion, the
issue, the ideas that she is pushing, and I think it ought to be
109
thought about a little bit. And I think that we should revisit it, but
with some facts and factors that are known and understood. I
watched good people on both sides that got caught up in this, and
we tried to work out of it by agreement, not because we com-
promised. I yield back.
Chairman COMER. Yield back. Any other Member seek recogni-
tion on this or we are going to vote? Ms. Mace, you want to speak
on the amendment to the amendment or——
Ms. MACE. I will wait.
Chairman COMER. You will wait? We are going to vote on the
amendment to the amendment. Okay. Are you good with that? I
want you to be happy. All right.
All those in favor of Dr. Foxx’s amendment to the amendment,
signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman COMER. All those opposed, no.
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it,
and the amendment to the amendment is agreed to.
Now we will vote on the amendment, as amended, the Garcia
Amendment as amended by Dr. Foxx.
All those in favor of the Garcia Amendment, as amended by Dr.
Foxx’s amendment, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman COMER. All those opposed, no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman COMER. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it,
and the amendment, as amended, is agreed to.
So, now we are back to voting on the Mace Number 2 amend-
ment [sic], as amended.
All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
Chairman COMER. All those opposed say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman COMER. In the opinion of the Chair, the ayes have it.
The motion is agreed to.
Now, the last vote is the Bell motion. Mr. Bell, you want to ex-
plain your motion? I do not even remember what it was.
Mr. BELL. Yes, Mr. Chair. My amendment was to bring in Greg-
ory Bovino to this body. We think it is about accountability. It is
about exactly what this Committee should be doing. There are op-
erations in Minnesota that all of us should have questions about,
and I think this is a no-brainer. This is exactly what we should be
doing as an Oversight, getting those questions answered.
Chairman COMER. Any other—anyone else seek—Ms. Mace?
Ms. MACE. [Off mic.]
Chairman COMER. It passed.
Ms. MACE. I know.
Chairman COMER. Okay. Anybody else seek recognition on the
Bell motion?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. Seeing none, all those in favor of the Bell mo-
tion, signify by saying aye.
[Chorus of ayes.]
110
Chairman COMER. All those opposed say no.
[Chorus of noes.]
Chairman COMER. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it.
Mr. GARCIA. Recorded vote.
Chairman COMER. A recorded vote has been requested. All votes
will be rolled to the end of the debate.
Now it is the end of the debate. We can vote on the bills, right,
vote on the motions. Okay.
So, the question is on Motion Number 1, the Krishnamoorthi mo-
tion. Members will record their votes using the electronic voting
system.
The clerk will now open the vote on the Krishnamoorthi motion.
[Voting.]
Chairman COMER. Have all Members voted who wishes to vote?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. Does any Member wish to change their vote?
[No response.]
Seeing none, the clerk will close the vote and report the vote
total.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are 19. The nays
are 24.
Chairman COMER. The nays have it, and the motion is not
agreed to.
Okay. The question is now on Motion Number 2 from Represent-
ative Mace. This deals with Attorney General Bondi. Members will
record their votes using the electronic voting system.
The clerk will now open the board.
[Voting.]
Chairman COMER. Have all Members—and remember, the Attor-
ney General has offered to come in and give briefings.
Mr. GARCIA. Briefings or a hearing?
Chairman COMER. Briefing. Okay. Have all Members——
Mr. GARCIA. There is no commitment for her to come in as far
as I understand it.
Ms. STANSBURY. Are we not closing the vote because you do not
want the Attorney General to come in front of the Oversight Com-
mittee, because it is pretty rudimentary.
[Pause.]
Chairman COMER. Have all Members voted to wish to be re-
corded?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. Does any Member wish to change their vote?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. The clerk will close the vote and report the
vote total.
[Pause.]
Chairman COMER. Yes. Report the vote total, please.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are 24. The nays
are 19.
Chairman COMER. The ayes have it, and the motion is agreed to.
The question is now on Motion Number 4 from Mr. Bell. Mem-
bers will record their votes using the electronic voting system.
The clerk will now open the vote on the Bell Motion.
[Voting.]
111
Chairman COMER. Have all Members recorded been recorded who
wish to be recorded?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. Does any Member wish to change their vote?
[No response.]
Chairman COMER. Seeing none, the clerk will now close the vote
and report the vote total.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, on this vote, the ayes are 19. The nays
are 22.
Chairman COMER. The nays have it, and the motion is not
agreed to.
In closing, I want to thank our witnesses once again for their tes-
timony today.
Also, the next item of Committee business is ratifying the new
Subcommittee roster. The clerks have distributed the roster elec-
tronically.
I ask unanimous consent the Committee approve the appoint-
ments and assignments as shown on the roster.
Without objection, the Subcommittee roster is approved.
With that and without objection, all Members have five legisla-
tive days within which to submit materials and additional written
questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the wit-
nesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, the Committee
stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
Æ
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