The War on Waste: Stamping Out the Scourge of Improper Payments and Fraud (February 12, 2025)
Summary
Transcript of the hearing The War on Waste: Stamping Out the Scourge of Improper Payments and Fraud, before the Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, U.S. House of Representatives, on February 12, 2025 (Serial No. 119–5). Hon. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Chairwoman of the Subcommittee, presided. Witnesses were Mr. Haywood Talcove of LexisNexis Special Services Inc.; Ms. Dawn Royal, Director, United Council on Welfare Fraud; Mr. Stewart Whitson, Senior Director of Federal Affairs; and minority witness Mr. Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette of the Project on Government Oversight. Documents entered include an AEI report, Executive Order No. 14158 and a Congressional Research Service report on removal of inspectors general.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
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“The War on Waste: Stamping Out the Scourge of Improper Payments and Fraud (February 12, 2025).”
Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/chrg-119hhrg58806-f96dc0b7c9/
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THE WAR ON WASTE:
STAMPING OUT THE SCOURGE OF
IMPROPER PAYMENTS AND FRAUD
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DELIVERING ON
GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
FEBRUARY 12, 2025
Serial No. 119–5
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
(
Available on: govinfo.gov
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
58–806 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
JIM JORDAN, Ohio GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia, Ranking
MIKE TURNER, Ohio Minority Member
PAUL GOSAR, Arizona ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina Columbia
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
MICHAEL CLOUD, Texas RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI, Illinois
GARY PALMER, Alabama RO KHANNA, California
CLAY HIGGINS, Louisiana KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
PETE SESSIONS, Texas SHONTEL BROWN, Ohio
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona MELANIE STANSBURY, New Mexico
NANCY MACE, South Carolina ROBERT GARCIA, California
PAT FALLON, Texas MAXWELL FROST, Florida
BYRON DONALDS, Florida SUMMER LEE, Pennsylvania
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania GREG CASAR, Texas
WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee EMILY RANDALL, Washington
MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, Georgia SUHAS SUBRAMANYAM, Virginia
LAUREN BOEBERT, Colorado YASSAMIN ANSARI, Arizona
ANNA PAULINA LUNA, Florida WESLEY BELL, Missouri
NICK LANGWORTHY, New York LATEEFAH SIMON, California
ERIC BURLISON, Missouri DAVE MIN, California
ELI CRANE, Arizona AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
BRIAN JACK, Georgia RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
JOHN MCGUIRE, Virginia
BRANDON GILL, Texas
MARK MARIN, Staff Director
JAMES RUST, Deputy Staff Director
MITCH BENZINE, General Counsel
PETER WARREN, Senior Advisor
LISA PIRANEO, Senior Professional Staff Member
BILLY GRANT, Professional Staff Member
MALLORY COGAR, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
CONTACT NUMBER: 202-225-5074
JAMIE SMITH, Minority Staff Director
CONTACT NUMBER: 202-225-5051
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DELIVERING ON GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY
MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, Georgia, Chairwoman
MICHAEL CLOUD, Texas MELANIE STANSBURY, New Mexico Ranking
PAT FALLON, Texas Minority Member
WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee Columbia
ERIC BURLISON, Missouri STEPHEN LYNCH, Massachussetts
BRIAN JACK, Georgia ROBERT GARCIA, California
BRANDON GILL, Texas GREG CASAR, Texas
JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas
(II)
C O N T E N T S
Page
Hearing held on February 12, 2025 ....................................................................... 1
WITNESSES
Mr. Haywood Talcove, Chief Executive Officer, LexisNexis Special Services
Inc.
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................ 7
Ms. Dawn Royal, Director, United Council on Welfare Fraud
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................ 8
Mr. Stewart Whitson, Senior Director of Federal Affairs, Foundation for Gov-
ernment Accountability
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................ 10
Mr. Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette (Minority Witness), Director of Government Af-
fairs, Project on Government Oversight
Oral Statement ........................................................................................................ 12
Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S. House of
Representatives Document Repository at: docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
* Report, AEI, ‘‘Pandemic-Unemployment-Fraud-in-Context’’; submitted by
Rep. Greene.
* Statement for the Record, Adam Roseman’ submitted by Rep. Timmons.
* 5 U.S. Code § 3161; submitted by Rep. Burlison.
* Executive Order No. 14158; submitted by Rep. Burlison.
* U.S. Constitution, Article II; submitted by Rep. Burlison.
* Report, Congressional Research Service, ‘‘Removal of Inspectors General’’;
submitted by Rep. Casar.
* News Poll, CBS, Feb 5-7, 2025; submitted by Rep. Jack.
* Statement for the Record, CREW; submitted by Rep. Stansbury.
* Statement for the Record, Department of People Who Work for a Living;
submitted by Rep. Stansbury.
Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.
(III)
THE WAR ON WASTE:
STAMPING OUT THE SCOURGE OF
IMPROPER PAYMENTS AND FRAUD
Wednesday, February 12, 2025
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DELIVERING ON GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room
2247, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Marjorie Taylor Greene
[Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Greene, Cloud, Fallon, Timmons,
Burlison, Jack, Gill, Stansbury, Norton, Lynch, Garcia, Casar,
Crockett.
Also present: Comer, Connolly.
Ms. GREENE. This hearing of the Subcommittee on Delivering on
Government Efficiency will come to order. Welcome, everyone.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any time.
Also, for today’s hearing, Chairman Comer and Ranking Member
Connolly will each be recognized for 1 minute after me and the
Ranking Member provide our opening statements.
I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening state-
ment.
Good morning. Today we begin the first hearing on the Oversight
Subcommittee on DOGE. This committee will be laser focused on
bringing full transparency to waste, fraud, and abuse within the
Federal Government, and presenting the plans to fix the tremen-
dous problems we expose. We, as a country, are $36 trillion in debt.
That is such a stunning amount of money. It is absolutely stag-
gering to even comprehend how we, as a people, we, as a country,
found ourselves here. This is not a Democrat problem. This is not
a Republican problem. This is an American problem.
To make it clear for everyone, not only are we $36 trillion in
debt, but the compounding interest on our debt is also growing out
of control. Even if we decided to defund the entire Federal Govern-
ment, we cannot escape our debt and the compounding interest
owed on our debt, which grows bigger and bigger every year. In
2025, interest payments are projected to be $952 billion, which is
more than our entire military budget. In 2026, it will be $1 trillion
and by 2035, $1.8 trillion. Over the next decade, total interest pay-
ments are projected to be $13.8 trillion. These interest payments
(1)
2
do not serve a single American. They do not build a bridge, a road,
provide disaster relief, or fund a single part of the behemoth that
is the Federal Government. These interest payments pay our mas-
ters who own our debt, and the American people are in debt slav-
ery to everyone who owns our debt.
Our crippling national debt and massively growing interest on
our debt will destroy us. Not destroy one political party or the
other, it will destroy all of us together. It drives inflation, making
life unaffordable for Americans struggling to financially survive. It
is crippling small businesses struggling to be successful. Our mas-
sively growing debt and interest are the chains and shackles har-
nessed to every American and their children and every generation
to come.
But first, let us be brutally honest about how this massive debt
came to be in the first place. It came from Congress and from elect-
ed Presidential administrations, and I believe enslaving our Nation
in debt is one of the biggest betrayals against the American people
by its own elected government. The American people’s anger over
this betrayal is what gave birth to the concept of DOGE, the De-
partment of Government Efficiency. In fact, DOGE became a major
part of President Trump’s campaign and led to his overwhelming
victory in November.
Every day Americans go to work. They run businesses. They
have to earn their paycheck. No one guarantees it, and if they do
not do a good job, they get fired. They also have to pay their bills,
credit card debts, balance their checkbooks, and scrap and save
every penny they can in order to plan for that rainy day and, hope-
fully, retirement 1 day. Private businesses only survive on hard-
earned income by serving their customers so well that their cus-
tomers pay them for the services and products they consume. If
that business fails, its employees lose their jobs and paychecks, and
the owners lose their business and everything they risked along
with it. Many go bankrupt in this process and lose everything. No
one bails them out. They only survive by excellent customer service
and smart financial management. This is the real world that most
Americans live, work, and survive in every day. This is the pursuit
of happiness, and this is how you pursue the American Dream.
However, the Federal Government, government employees, and
unelected bureaucrats do not live by the same rules as the great
American people and private businesses. The Federal Government’s
income is the American people’s hard-earned tax dollars, their lit-
eral blood, sweat, and tears, and taxes are collected by law at gun-
point. Do not pay your taxes, and you go to jail. The Federal Gov-
ernment does not have to provide excellent customer service to
earn its income. It takes your money whether you like it or not.
And Federal employees receive their paycheck no matter what,
whether veterans receive their benefits or not, whether your mail
shows up or not, and whether your tax dollars are used to help
Americans in need or are sent to foreign countries for foreign peo-
ple, for foreign causes.
No matter how bad the Federal Government fails the American
people, it still takes your money. It still pays its own Federal em-
ployees, and it never, ever goes out of business. There are no con-
sequences for bad customer service, total failure, and for enslaving
3
the American people against their will in the ever-growing and fu-
ture all-consuming national debt. Congress has a dismal approval
rating that ranges between 12 and 20 percent. I do not blame the
American people one bit for their sentiment and disgust. The
American people will be watching this Committee and how we
tackle one of the biggest problems of our time. While we are a com-
mittee made up of the opposite, far-reaching corners of Congress,
we were each elected to serve and represent the American people
and how their hard-earned tax dollars are spent. We as Repub-
licans and Democrats can still hold tightly to our beliefs, but we
are going to have to let go of funding them in order to save our
sinking ship. This is not a time for political theater and partisan
attacks. The American people are watching. The legislative branch
cannot sit on the sidelines.
In this Subcommittee, we will fight the war on waste shoulder-
to-shoulder with President Trump, Elon Musk, and the DOGE
team. This week, we turn our attention to improper payments by
the Federal Government, including in Medicaid and Medicare. I am
looking forward to what we find out and how to solve this crisis.
I now yield to the Ranking Member, Ms. Stansbury, for her open-
ing statement.
Ms. STANSBURY. All right. Well, good morning, everyone. Thank
you, Madam Chair, and welcome to the very first Subcommittee on
Government Efficiency. As was said, this Committee is tasked
under the Oversight Committee with ensuring that the government
and the vital services that it provides, from healthcare to national
security, actually work for the American people. And this is cer-
tainly a topic that we have worked on for many, many years here
in the Oversight Committee, and which I personally have worked
on as a former civil servant who worked at the Office of Manage-
ment and Budget. And in fact, for anyone who has ever worked on
these issues, you know that there is ample ground for bipartisan
work to make the government work better for the American people
and to ensure that it operates in a more efficient manner.
And, in fact, all of us here on the Democratic side are ready to
roll up our sleeves and to get to work. And just last week, I had
the opportunity to sit down with the Chairwoman and to discuss
these very issues and opportunities to work across the aisle. And
like the Chairwoman, who shared some of her background with me,
I grew up in a working family. I grew up working for small mom-
and-pop family businesses and understand the necessity of bal-
ancing the books, making sure we can deliver, and fiscal responsi-
bility. And that is why today’s hearing is focused on making sure
that the Federal Government is doing what it is supposed to and
digging into the more than $236 billion in improper payments that
we see going out the door every single year, and we need to get to
the bottom of that. And we need to make sure that we are putting
into place rigorous oversight and controls to prevent fraud and
abuse, and, of course, to go after bad actors.
And that is why myself and the Oversight Ranking Member Con-
nolly and other Democratic Members of the Committee sent a set
of bipartisan ideas that we would like to work on together that
would root out waste, fraud, and abuse, and modernize and stream-
line how our agencies deliver vital programs for the American peo-
4
ple. These are programs that are important for our seniors and our
families and healthcare and the education system, and we need bi-
partisan solutions to get across the finish line. And we have been
trying over the last several years to get these ideas out of this
Committee, but, unfortunately, the Committee’s priorities have
been elsewhere under the current Majority, so I hope we can fix
that this Congress.
But we cannot just sit here today and pretend like everything is
normal and that this is just another hearing on government effi-
ciency. I mean, all you have to do is look across this room and see
that it is not a normal hearing because while we are sitting here,
Donald Trump and Elon Musk are recklessly and illegally disman-
tling the Federal Government, shuttering Federal agencies, firing
Federal workers, withholding funds vital to the safety and well-
being of our communities, and hacking our sensitive data systems.
In fact, while we were here discussing government waste on the
House Floor yesterday, Elon Musk was standing behind the Reso-
lute Desk in the Oval Office with the President, and the Adminis-
tration was making emergency court appeals to try to unlock his
team’s access to the Treasury Payment System, which they claim
they are using to study improper payments, which is the topic of
this hearing.
But here is the thing. The Treasury Payment System—which in-
cludes Social Security information and bank accounts for millions
of Americans and data that is critical to national security and the
operation of the U.S. Government, and payments that go out the
door annually, equal to almost a fifth of the U.S. economy—is not
where the payment decisions are made, because that happens in-
side the agencies that are currently being dismantled. And the peo-
ple who actually investigate waste, fraud, and abuse at these agen-
cies are the Inspector Generals who Donald Trump fired his first
week in office in a midnight massacre.
So, we have to ask ourselves, what is really going on here? Why
did Republicans block Elon Musk from appearing before this very
Committee last week? Why is the Administration so eager to allow
Elon Musk and his hackers to have access to proprietary and pri-
vate information in the Treasury Payment Systems? Why are our
colleagues across the aisle shielding them as they are clearly
breaking the law, and why is the Vice President trying to rewrite
the U.S. Constitution by tweet and undermine the judiciary? So ob-
viously, we are in the Oversight Committee and we have a lot of
questions, and so do the American people, especially while our col-
leagues across the aisle are trying to scoop up the savings from the
dismantling of these agencies to pay for the largest permanent tax
break in American history for billionaires and the folks that they
are helping on their side of the aisle.
So, let me close by saying this directly to Mr. Elon Musk. We are
well aware that you are eager to engage with Members of Congress
on social media, but we are not here to play. If you have serious
desire to engage in democracy and transparency, we welcome you
to the Oversight Committee. Come and testify in front of the Amer-
ican people under oath because we want to know what you are up
to. So, if you are interested in talking to us, then please join us
5
here in the People’s House in the House of Representatives, and
with that, I yield back.
Ms. GREENE. The gentlelady yields. President Trump signed an
executive order on his first day in office, called Establishing and
Implementing the President’s Department of Government Effi-
ciency. The EO simply renamed an office in the White House that
was actually established by President Obama in 2014, called the
U.S. Digital Service. President Trump can have Elon Musk into his
Oval Office anytime he likes.
I now recognize the Chairman of the Oversight Committee,
Chairman James Comer.
Chairman COMER. Well, thank you, Chairwoman Greene, for
holding today’s hearing to launch a war on waste. President Trump
won an electoral landslide with a clear mandate from the American
people to eliminate Washington waste and stop the theft of Amer-
ican tax dollars, and he is delivering on his promise. President
Trump has empowered Elon Musk and DOGE to conduct a govern-
mentwide audit to identify solutions to curb waste and protect tax
dollars. That is exactly what the mission of this Committee is sup-
posed to be, and I am glad that my colleagues on the other side
of the aisle have found a new-found interest in waste, fraud, and
abuse.
With a staggering $37 trillion in national debt, we have no time
to lose. A key place to start is improper payments. Since 2003, the
government has lost $2.7 trillion because of improper payments.
Fraudsters, organized criminals, hostile foreign actors, and even
government employees have siphoned money away from those who
truly qualify for assistance. For years, Republicans and Democrats
on the Oversight Committee have condemned this waste, but now
that DOGE is taking real action, Democrats are choosing to defend
the bureaucracy and status quo instead of standing up for the
American people. I want to thank Chairwoman Greene for holding
this very important hearing not only to expose the problems, but
to find solutions. We stand with President Trump and DOGE in
the fight to end waste, fraud, and abuse in Washington.
With that, I yield back to Subcommittee Chairwoman Greene,
and congratulations again, Chairwoman, on holding this first hear-
ing of the DOGE Subcommittee.
Ms. GREENE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The gentleman yields
back. I now recognize the Ranking Member on oversight, Mr. Con-
nolly.
Mr. CONNOLLY. Excuse me. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank
you for having this first hearing on DOGE. Improper payments is
not a new subject. I remember joining Steve Lynch and then Todd
Platts, Republican Member from Pennsylvania, in my freshman
year, talking about improper payments. At that time, improper
payments were in the range of $35 billion a year. They are now in
the range of $280 billion a year, and times 10, we could cut almost
$3 trillion from the debt if we addressed improper payments in a
deliberative way, which GAO has called for in the high-risk cat-
egory for years. We can also, second, enforce the Tax Code. It is
estimated that at least a half a trillion dollars a year is left on the
table uncollected but owed because of lack of resources in the IRS.
Again, times 10 is $5 trillion over a decade. And finally, we can
6
modernize Federal IT systems, which we have championed for
years on this Committee. We know that legacy systems alone could
save hundreds of millions of dollars a year in operating and main-
tenance costs.
So, if we want to be serious about it, let us be serious about it.
But the way not to do it is to fire the people charged with the remit
of waste, fraud, and abuse, namely inspectors general. President
Trump has already now fired 19, including, most recently, the
USAID Inspector General, who dared to warn that we could lose
a half a billion dollars of food aid because it is in warehouses, not
being moved because of the funding freeze that was imposed in
AID. That is a cost we need to avoid, and for doing his job, that
IG was fired. If we want to be serious, we have got to have objec-
tive, neutral Inspectors General who are monitoring government
waste, fraud and abuse, and expenditures. And I think you would
find Democrats more than willing partners in that kind of enter-
prise, if we are going to be serious. But a wrecking crew, a wreck-
ing crane, a wrecking ball is not going to do it, and we are not
going to support that approach to waste, fraud, and abuse in the
Federal Government. I yield back. Thank you.
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman yields. The President of the United
States has the prerogative to fire anyone that has overseen $36
trillion in debt, enslaving the American people, and rightfully so.
I am pleased to welcome today’s expert panel of witnesses, who
each bring unique experience and expertise that will be valuable to
today’s discussion.
I would first like to welcome Mr. Haywood Talcove, the Chief Ex-
ecutive Officer for Government at LexisNexis Risk Solutions, Inc.
His commitment to customers’ needs allows LexisNexis to develop
market-leading solutions that have enabled customers to stop
fraud, waste, and abuse. Next, we have Mr. Stewart Whitson, the
Senior Director of Federal affairs at the Foundation of Government
Accountability. Stewart was previously a special agent in the FBI,
a U.S. Army veteran, and now spends his time at FGA advocating
to improve welfare, the workforce, and other policy.
Next, we have Ms. Dawn Royal, a certified welfare fraud investi-
gator in the state of Wyoming, and Director for the United Council
of Welfare Fraud. She advocates for investigating and preventing
fraud of government benefits and has done so over the past 16
years. Finally, we have Mr. Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, the Director
of Government Affairs at the Project on Government Oversight.
Dylan leads advocacy efforts and policy reforms to a wide range of
good governance.
I thank each of our witnesses for being here today, and I look
forward to your testimony. Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the
witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
[A chorus of ayes.]
Ms. GREENE. Let the record show that the witnesses answered
in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat. We appreciate
you being here today and look forward to your testimony.
7
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statement, and it will appear in full in the hearing record. Please
limit your oral statement to 5 minutes. As a reminder, please press
the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on, and
the Members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in
front of you will turn green. After 4 minutes, the light will turn
yellow. When the red light comes on, your 5 minutes have expired,
and we would ask that you please wrap up.
I now recognize Mr. Talcove for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF HAYWOOD TALCOVE
CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER
LEXISNEXIS SPECIAL SERVICES INC.
Mr. TALCOVE. Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Member Stansbury,
and distinguished Members of the Committee, for over a decade, a
silent war has been waged against American taxpayers, not with
bombs or guns, but with data and technology. Outdated govern-
ment systems permit criminals to access unlimited sums of money.
During the pandemic, they stole $1 trillion. Seventy percent of
those dollars went overseas. Shockingly, it is just not criminals ex-
ploiting the system. It is the flawed system itself acting as the ac-
complice. If left unchecked, the U.S. Government will continue to
lead the world in funding cybercriminals. This is a data and tech-
nology problem, and it demands a data-driven response.
Criminal syndicates have turned benefit programs into their per-
sonal ATM machines, exploiting those in need who wait months for
benefits that may never come. These ruthless crooks use our money
to fund child trafficking, disperse drugs in our communities, and
terrorism. For years, criminal networks have stolen personal infor-
mation from the public and private sector. They exploit real identi-
ties to manipulate antiquated government systems, siphoning off
billions in taxpayers’ hard-earned money. We continue to pay bene-
fits to deceased and incarcerated individuals, direct money to bad
actors flagged on the Do Not Pay list, and overlook duplicate Social
Security numbers by not following best practices.
During the pandemic, a simple cross-check of PPP loan recipients
against IRS records would have exposed massive fraud and pre-
vented payments to transnational criminals who sold their ‘‘sauce’’
on the dark web. To stop this, we must reclaim control of our sys-
tems, not just from the criminal syndicates, but the flawed systems
enabling them. Smarter technology, data, and identity verification
are not optional. They are necessities to protect taxpayers and en-
sure aid reaches those who truly need it.
Now, the use of AI is fundamentally changing society, but in the
hands of criminals, it has become a weapon. Lawbreakers are now
using it to supercharge their war on taxpayers. They use AI to cre-
ate fake identity documents that pass biometric verifications. Bots
flood portals with thousands of fraudulent claims per second, and
deep fakes that mimic real applicants bypass the outdated NIST
800–63 standards from 2017.
Honest and deserving people seeking access to government bene-
fits suffer through endless application forms that are nearly impos-
sible to navigate, but criminals from Russia, China, and Romania
gain access with ease. The private sector has fraud rates below
8
three percent. Meanwhile, the public sector operates at a 20 per-
cent fraud rate. The solution is clear. It is already used every day
to protect consumers. You seamlessly interact with your bank
through an app that verifies your identity in milliseconds. There is
no excuse for the government to lag if we do the following:
No. 1, implement identity verification on the front end—crimi-
nals should never receive a dime—eliminate self-certification, no
more honor system for billion-dollar programs, and continuous au-
diting. Keep verifying because criminals never stop adapting. Pay-
and-chase does not work. Of the $250 billion stolen in pandemic
unemployment fraud, less than $5 billion has been recovered. The
idea in government that you cannot have speed and security is fic-
tion. I urge Congress to consider making the following legislative
changes:
No. 1, update the 1974 Privacy Act to allow for data sharing and
matching.
No. 2, fund a budget for fraud prevention in each appropriation
bill. The USDA spends one-twentieth of one percent on fraud pre-
vention. Mandate that individuals caught stealing from entitlement
programs pay hefty fines and are removed from the program per-
manently. And finally, eliminate broad-based categorical eligibility.
This Committee has a choice: continue losing this war against
criminal cartels and nation-states, or fight back and save $1 trillion
annually. Fraud prevention is not benefit prevention. It is the key
to ensuring that every dollar reaches those who truly need it.
Hardworking Americans rely on these programs not just to survive,
but to build better lives for their families. When criminals exploit
the system, they just do not steal money. They steal opportunities.
Stopping fraud is not about denying benefits. It is about pro-
tecting them. This crime has two victims. The first are the tax-
payers, and the second are those seeking benefits. The fraudsters,
cartels, and criminal syndicates are watching this hearing, I am
sure of it. It is time to show them that America will not fund its
own destruction. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
Ms. GREENE. Thank you, Mr. Talcove. I now recognize Ms. Royal
for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF DAWN ROYAL
DIRECTOR
UNITED COUNCIL ON WELFARE FRAUD
Ms. ROYAL. Good morning, Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Mem-
ber Stansbury, and Committee Members. My name is Dawn Royal.
I am a certified welfare fraud investigator, two-term past president
and a current Director of the United Counsel on Welfare Fraud.
The United Counsel on Welfare Fraud is a national professional or-
ganization dedicated to protecting integrity in our Nation’s public
assistance programs. We are the only national organization sin-
gularly focused on the detection, prevention, and prosecution of
welfare fraud.
For too long, agency bureaucrats have pitted citizens’ access to
welfare programs against the integrity of those programs. Access
versus integrity should never be an either/or dichotomy. We can all
agree that access to public assistance is crucial. America’s citizens
should not be hungry or deprived of medical care because of their
9
inability to pay. However, making sure vulnerable citizens have ac-
cess to these welfare programs should not mean that we simply
turn a blind eye to integrity. If we do not pursue the prevention,
detection, and prosecution of fraud, taxpayers become the victims
as the welfare programs become slush funds for anyone wanting to
supplement their income with SNAP benefits, absolve themselves
from the financial responsibility of medical bills, and using Med-
icaid to further taxpayer exploitation by taking advantage of cash
assistance, energy assistance, childcare, and other social welfare
programs.
One example of welfare fraud is a case that I investigated that
was criminally prosecuted last year. The applicant mother failed to
disclose her children’s father, as well as his employment and in-
come on multiple applications she submitted for Medicaid, SNAP,
and low-income energy assistance. The co-defendant father worked
a steady job, earning a 6-figure salary, and provided an enviable
lifestyle for his family, including vacations, luxury vehicles, snow-
mobiles, motorhomes, lavish gifts, including one from the wife to
the husband, which was a $1,200 bottle of bourbon. Evidence we
presented at trial included candidate registration forms filed by the
defendant father when he ran for town council and later mayor of
the town where he declared he lived at the same address provided
by his wife on her public assistance programs. This was a case of
greed, but it emphasizes how easy it was for these criminals to
make false statements on applications in order to receive benefits
from multiple programs that they were never eligible for.
I could spend the rest of my day providing countless examples of
how taxpayer-funded programs are exploited, and the message
would be the same. Investigators continue to be hamstrung by anti-
quated regulations, conflicting directives from Federal agencies,
and the lack of access to technology. Sadly, investigators have also
found themselves at odds with the career bureaucrats who recite
watered-down facts about fraud in order to promote their political
agendas. Specifically, we can look to the career bureaucrats who
have historically claimed that the fraud rate in SNAP is less than
one percent. The disregard for the value of integrity is evidenced
by the less than one-twentieth of one percent of the SNAP budget
spent on the prevention, detection, and prosecution of fraud. As
part of Medicaid unwinding debacle, the bureaucrats specifically di-
rected states that they ‘‘cannot recover or recoup the cost of serv-
ices from a beneficiary, even if they have been found after an ad-
ministrative hearing or criminal proceeding to have committed
Medicaid beneficiary fraud or abuse.’’
Sadly, it is already apparent that career bureaucrats are not
being totally transparent as they attempt to protect spending and
broken programs. We fail to understand how mitigating the ramp-
ant fraud in Medicaid, SNAP, and other welfare programs stands
up or strengthens the welfare programs. Fact is, the opposite is
true. Ignoring fraud and gaslighting fraud statistics erodes the very
foundations of the programs that are essential to their future via-
bility.
There are things this Committee can do to help the investigators
fighting the war on fraud. No. 1, eliminate self-attestation in the
application process for all programs. No. 2, funding for technology
10
that includes identity verification tools that will help prevent
fraud. The current pay and chase model is not sustainable. No. 3,
immediately implement the National Accuracy Clearinghouse, the
NAC, that will provide data to states to prevent duplicate partici-
pation in all of the social welfare programs. And four, allocate di-
rect funding with mandates restricting the use of the funding to
the prevention, detection, and prosecution of fraud.
In closing, we are at a crossroads. Those of us who have first-
hand knowledge of the degree in which public welfare programs are
being attacked know that reform is absolutely necessary, reform to
the recipient application process, the billing process in Medicaid
and how SNAP benefits are processed, and how providers and re-
tailers are authorized. We thank you for the opportunity for
UCOWF to participate in this hearing. We feel that the investiga-
tors who are on the front lines fighting the daily battle against the
war on fraud need to be at the table and participating in the devel-
opment of action plans that will make a difference in protecting the
programs and defending the taxpayers.
Ms. GREENE. Thank you, Ms. Royal. I now recognize Mr. Whitson
for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF STEWART WHITSON
FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT
SENIOR DIRECTOR OF FEDERAL AFFAIRS
FOUNDATION FOR GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY
Mr. WHITSON. Chairwoman Greene, Ranking Member Stansbury,
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to
testify today.
On the campaign trail, President Trump promised to take on the
bloated bureaucracy in D.C., rebuild trust in the DOJ and the FBI,
crack down on waste, fraud, and abuse, and restore common sense.
And on day one, he started delivering on those promises with a
wave of executive orders and the official launch of DOGE, which
he, of course, tasked Elon Musk to lead. Already, DOGE efforts
have brought to the public’s attention countless examples of waste-
ful spending, including $59 million paid to luxury hotels in New
York to house illegal immigrants, $1.5 million to advance DEI in
Serbia’s workplaces, $32,000 for a transgender comic book in Peru.
The list goes on. But rather than applauding the work of DOGE,
the left has launched a coordinated campaign to try to demonize
Mr. Musk with the hope of shifting focus away from the disastrous
waste, fraud, and abuse that occurred on Biden’s watch, but guess
what? It is not working, because no matter what political party
people hail from, the vast majority of Americans agree that $10
million worth of food funneled to Al-Qaeda was probably not the
best use of taxpayer money.
But there is another source, a key source, of wasteful spending
that DOGE and the Subcommittee should set their sights on next,
and that is Medicaid waste and fraud. While initially meant as a
program for the truly needy, Medicaid has bloated into a massive
welfare program for millions of able-bodied adults lured into the
trap of government dependency. And as Medicaid has grown, so,
too, has mismanagement. Today, more than $1 in $5 dollars spent
on Medicaid is improper. In Medicaid alone, fraud and mismanage-
11
ment is on track to cost U.S. taxpayers—get this—more than $1
trillion over the next 10 years. When it comes to the problem of im-
proper payments, the Medicaid program is the biggest culprit, en-
compassing nearly one-third of all Federal improper payments, and
more than 80 percent of Medicaid improper payments are due to
one thing: eligibility errors. If Congress wants to help President
Trump address wasteful spending, then targeting eligibility errors
in Medicaid should be one of your top priorities.
Bottom line, to address this challenge, Congress can take three
decisive actions. So, first, Congress can strengthen the Medicaid
Program through legislative action. That would include repealing
Biden’s disastrous Medicaid streamlining rule, which ties the
hands of states trying to remove ineligible enrollees. You can and
should do this through reconciliation, and it will produce $164 bil-
lion in savings if you do. You can also strengthen verification re-
quirements to ensure only eligible individuals receive benefits and
ensure a nationwide NAC is implemented without delay.
Second thing Congress can do to help President Trump’s DOGE
effort by ensuring that entrenched partisan bureaucrats do not
stand in the way of reform. So, Musk and his DOGE team have al-
ready found hundreds of billions of dollars funneled into wasteful,
fraudulent, and flat-out insane projects, but they have only
scratched the surface. If this much fraud has been exposed in just
a few weeks, imagine what else is buried under layers of red tape
and government excuses. But guess what? All of these insane
projects have one thing in common: they were all approved and
funded by unelected bureaucrats, and these and other entrenched
bureaucrats are already pledging to fight against President
Trump’s efforts to improve government accountability and effi-
ciency. Personnel is policy, and without competent staff to faith-
fully execute the President’s agenda, the DOGE project will fail.
And this is where Congress can help.
Congress can support the President in carrying out his DOGE ef-
fort by making all executive branch employees at-will, codifying the
President’s authority to fire unproductive or insubordinate agency
employees as needed. At the same time, Congress can grant the
President authority to permanently eliminate vacant positions and
consolidate nonessential positions across agencies and departments
to help promote efficiency and put the right people in the right
seat. The third thing, Congress can make President Trump’s DOGE
cost-cutting and deregulatory reforms permanent by passing the
REINS Act. And so, there is only one big problem with the DOGE
effort. Most of its work can be undone by a future President with
the stroke of a pen. To make President Trump’s DOGE reforms
permanent, Congress must act, and the best way to do this is to
pass the REINS Act. This would return Article I budgetary power
of the purse to Congress while promoting deregulation. It would
also help lock in the DOGE reforms and cement President Trump’s
legacy as the most consequential deregulatory and cost-cutting
President in U.S. history.
The American people are watching. It is time for Congress to act.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
Ms. GREENE. Thank you, Mr. Whitson. I now recognize Mr.
Hedtler-Gaudette for his opening statement.
12
STATEMENT OF DYLAN HEDTLER-GAUDETTE
DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS
PROJECT ON GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT (POGO)
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Thank you, Chairwoman Greene, Rank-
ing Member Stansbury, and Members of the Subcommittee. My
name is Dylan Hedtler-Gaudette, and I am the Director of Govern-
ment Affairs at the Project on Government Oversight, or POGO. I
appreciate the opportunity to be with you here today to talk about
the critical issue of bringing more accountability and transparency
to Federal spending, including rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse.
Since our founding in 1981, POGO has been focused on pro-
moting more accountability and rooting out wasteful spending and
promoting efficiency, especially at the Department of Defense. We
have a long and well-established track record on these issues, and
we take a backseat when it comes to promoting a better and more
effective government, which necessarily includes a Federal Govern-
ment that is a good and responsible steward of taxpayer dollars.
Let us take a moment to pause here to talk a little bit about
terms that we are going to hear a lot today and the differences be-
tween them. Waste is different from fraud, fraud is different from
abuse, and abuse is different from both. When we talk about im-
proper payments, they are a subset of those other three categories,
but that does not tell us the whole picture either. Sometimes im-
proper payments are a function of bad recordkeeping. Sometimes
they are a function of outdated information technology systems.
Sometimes they come about through human error, and sometimes
they come about through negligence. There are a variety of reasons
why improper payments happen. It just simply is not the case that
improper payments are only a function of bad people doing bad
things with bad intent. That does not mean we should not focus on
trying to mitigate improper payments, and that certainly does not
mean that the American people should not be concerned with how
their tax dollars are used.
The good news is, is that there are some time-tested solutions
and tools to help mitigate these problems. For example, when we
think about the independence of Inspectors General, we are talking
about a resource that is extraordinarily valuable to the American
people. In Fiscal Year 2023 alone, Inspectors General identified
over $93 billion worth of potential savings to taxpayers. Whistle-
blowers are also an incredible resource to the American taxpayer.
Through the IRS’s whistleblower program alone, billions of dollars
have been recouped from tax cheats since the inception of that pro-
gram in 2007. Whistleblowers have also played an instrumental
role in helping the Department of Justice pursue False Claims Act
cases that have resulted in billions of dollars in reclaimed settle-
ment costs. It seems to me that if an administration were serious
about wanting to root out waste, fraud, and abuse, they would sup-
port and resource whistleblowers and Inspectors General. They
would not demonize them, and they would certainly not fire them
en masse in an unlawful midnight purge.
There are other reforms we can think about, too, reforms that
are more technical but just as important. Key statutes, such as the
Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act, the Data
13
Act, and critical platforms like USAspending.gov were really impor-
tant improvements and innovations when they came about, but
they are in need of overhaul and reform. Currently, the status quo
is that we have an extraordinarily hard time tracking Federal dol-
lars from end to end. This is due in large part to a broken chain
of data collection, of reporting information, and the ability to mon-
itor and track in real time what is happening with Federal dollars.
This informational black hole is where a lot of impropriety hap-
pens. It is where waste, fraud, and abuse live, and, yes, this is
where improper payments often happen. But more importantly, we
also do not have a good, clear, and consistent way of understanding
what is happening with tax dollars at the end point. What is the
impact that we are having? What is the return on investment that
we are having? We now have an annual budget of close to $7 tril-
lion a year. We cannot say with any degree of clarity and consist-
ency what we are getting for all of that money.
We have some more good news, though. There are bipartisan ef-
forts—and there have been for years—to try and cleanup this situ-
ation. We at POGO have had the privilege and pleasure of working
on some of those initiatives. We were a part of the Federal Tax-
payers Right-to-Know Act being passed into law just a couple of
years ago, which created for the very first time a program inven-
tory of all the programs in the Federal Government and that would
be available to the public. We have worked with a Member of this
very Committee, the House Oversight and Accountability Com-
mittee [sic], to introduce a piece of legislation that would bring
more transparency to Federal subaward reporting. We have sup-
ported and endorsed multiple pieces of legislation that take direct
aim at the improper payments issue.
We also have additional ideas that do not yet have congressional
champions. One proposal is to clean up and modernize and stand-
ardize the award descriptions that are available in USAspending to
make them more useful and relevant. We have another proposal to
harmonize the amount of data and information we collect between
contract spending and noncontract spending. We stand ready, will-
ing, and able to work with anybody who wants to work with us on
these commonsense solutions.
Last, I want to put in a quick word for Congress—and specifi-
cally, I want to ask——
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman’s time has expired.
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Apologies.
Ms. GREENE. Yes.
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. I cannot see the flashing light.
Ms. GREENE. That is OK. Thank you, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, we
appreciate your testimony.
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of questions.
I would like to thank our witnesses today for your testimoneys
and the suggestions that you have brought before this Committee.
I would also like to thank Chairman Comer for this opportunity to
chair the historic Oversight Subcommittee on DOGE.
Americans are shocked to learn that $2.7 trillion of their hard-
earned tax dollars have been stolen or wasted in improper pay-
ments since 2003. You see, in the private sector, companies cannot
continue to run if they keep employees that allow waste and abuse
14
with their resources, but that has continued for decades here in the
Federal Government. Mr. Talcove, do private sector companies
have a lower rate of improper payments than the Federal Govern-
ment?
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes. The fraud rate that the criminals are taking
advantage of in the public sector is around 20 percent. In the pri-
vate sector, it is around three percent. And it is really because the
tools that are used in the private sector are not used in the public
sector: front-end identity verification, self-certification, and then fi-
nally making sure that individuals are who they say they are. If
we start using these tools, you will see the fraud rate go down dra-
matically because, for the most part, this fraud is not taking place
by real individuals. It is individuals whose identities have been sto-
len on the dark web. They use that information pretending to be
somebody else, and because of the antiquated systems, processes,
and technologies in place in government programs, they are able to
steal at scale.
Ms. GREENE. Right. So, Mr. Talcove, we would say that private
companies that pretty much have to exist on a 20-percent profit
rate. They cannot continue to be successful if they were to allow
their customers’ data to be stolen like that and used by criminals.
However, the Federal Government, who can continue printing
checks and continue in operation, never fixes its problems because
it cannot be forced to go out of business. Would you agree with
that? Yes or no.
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes. One of the things I noticed during COVID
was the criminals learned that government was the mark because
it never runs out of money——
Ms. GREENE. Uh-huh.
Mr. TALCOVE [continuing]. And they focus on it at scale, and then
the likelihood of getting caught is virtually zero.
Ms. GREENE. I think it is outrageous for Americans to know that
their identity can be stolen and then used for child-trafficking,
drug-trafficking, and terrorism, like you stated in your opening
statement. Ms. Royal, your testimony states that many programs
operate under essentially an honor system in which applicants
need not verify their identity, income, residency, or other key eligi-
bility factors. You call this a trust-everyone instead of a trust-by-
verify approach. Does this mean the Federal Government and some
states are giving out billions of dollars to individuals without
verifying who they are or whether they meet program eligibility re-
quirements?
Ms. ROYAL. Yes, ma’am. That is correct.
Ms. GREENE. That is outrageous. Do states have enough incen-
tive to prevent fraud and to recover improper payments?
Ms. ROYAL. No, and, in fact, states are hesitant to spend their
state dollars to protect Federal dollars.
Ms. GREENE. Would greater investment in program integrity ef-
forts yield a positive return for taxpayers?
Ms. ROYAL. Yes, it could easily be self-funding.
Ms. GREENE. Amazing. Mr. Whitson, your testimony states that
both the Biden and Obama Administrations issued rules and guid-
ance that made it harder for states to verify eligibility for Med-
icaid. You say that repealing Biden’s Medicaid streamlining rule
15
would save $164 billion over 10 years because the rule restricts eli-
gibility verification that states can perform. Can you explain why
this rule is so costly?
Mr. WHITSON. Yes. So, the rule does a number of things. For in-
stance, it prohibits states from verifying eligibility more than once
a year. So, for nondisabled folks to just go in and look and say, hey,
are you still eligible for the program? It says you are forbidden
from doing that any more often than once a year. And so, obvi-
ously, people’s lives change and so they may become ineligible, and
so it is designed to keep them on the program. Another thing, it
prohibits in-person or phone interviews to verify their identity. So,
people apply for it, and then the person on the other end says, well,
I just want to call and make sure this is a real person, not someone
in another country or whatever. The rule prohibits that.
And so, there are a number of other provisions. It also opens a
lengthy reconsideration period, and this is where illegal immi-
grants are able to obtain the benefits. And so, basically, it says
once you get these benefits, you cannot interfere with it for a 90-
day period or longer, and so there are a number of——
Ms. GREENE. Wow.
Mr. WHITSON [continuing]. Of horrible things.
Ms. GREENE. So, we cannot verify if someone is illegal or legal,
receiving benefits, just to correct that? Yes or no.
Mr. WHITSON. A state has to wait at least 90 days, and actually
what we are seeing is it has led some states to wait as long as 13
years on the program. And so——
Ms. GREENE. Unbelievable. My time has expired. Thank you very
much. I now recognize Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts for 5 min-
utes.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. First of all, let
me congratulate you, and also Ms. Stansbury, on your new posi-
tions, and I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony. We
have already heard some good ideas about how to work together,
and, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, I, for one, would be most open to work-
ing with POGO and trying to work on some of the legislative ideas
that you have to actually get at some of this waste, fraud, and
abuse.
Since this is my first opportunity to speak in this new Sub-
committee as the Representative for the 8th congressional District
in Massachusetts, I want to, first of all, make clear that my pri-
mary purpose in seeking appointment to this Subcommittee is for
the singular and sacred purpose to defend our democracy, which I
believe is under attack in this country, and to uphold my oath to
support and defend the Constitution against those who might se-
cretly or openly seek its destruction.
Make no mistake, this is a moment for representative democracy.
This is a test of our resolve. In the coming days and weeks, we will
all get to decide whether we stand with a couple of billionaires
who, despite their own financial successes, still harbor such griev-
ances in their hearts that after all that democracy has provided to
them, they remain animated by the desire to dismantle this demo-
cratic government and to punch down at some of the weakest and
most vulnerable in our society; two men who clearly understand
16
that the easiest way to incite large numbers of people is to use so-
cial media to exploit the dynamic forces of hatred and fear.
Madam Chair, if we are going after waste, fraud, and abuse, let
us start with abuse. Abuse of power. As of yesterday, there were
55 lawsuits under consideration by the Federal courts across our
Nation as a result of Elon Musk’s and President Trump’s unlawful
acts. Many of those lawsuits have already been sustained by the
Federal district courts, and orders have been rendered to undo
those unlawful acts. But this is just the beginning, and Congress
has an important role to play, and I, for one, look forward to that
opportunity. This is a moment of great consequence for our country
and for our democracy, and I remain grateful to the good people of
the 8th congressional District of Massachusetts who sent me here.
Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, again, happy to join you on some of your
efforts. POGO has worked very closely with our IG community. Is
that right, the Inspector Generals?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Yes, that is correct, Congressman.
Mr. LYNCH. I know your work is very much similar to what we
ask our Inspectors Generals to undertake. I want to ask you, so in
the most recent report from the Inspector Generals, and this is the
Council of the Inspector Generals, a nonpartisan group on integrity
and efficiency in government, they identified more than $93 billion
in potential savings. So, the first thing that President Trump did
coming into office was to fire—fire—17 agency Inspectors General.
From POGO’s standpoint, what does that do to our ability to iden-
tify and root out waste, fraud, and abuse?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Thank you, Congressman. I would say,
to put it simply, it completely undermines our ability to root out
waste, fraud, and abuse. Inspectors General exist for essentially
one purpose, and they were originally created in the immediate
aftermath of Watergate. And I think you all probably do not need
me to give you a history lesson at all on what happened in the Wa-
tergate era. There is a reason they were created at that time be-
cause there was a lot of waste, fraud, and abuse happening, and
there were not cops on the beat that were internal, that were inde-
pendent, that were situated in agencies to be able to find these
things and expose them and do something about them. That is
what Inspectors General exist to do. So, it is completely, I would
say, anathema to any stated mission to find cost savings and to
root out waste, fraud, and abuse to fire Inspectors General and to
undermine them. It makes no sense. Those two things do not add
up.
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you very much. The firings that occurred
when President Trump came into office included the Special In-
spector General for Afghan Reconstruction, Mr. Sopko. I actually
did over 20 trips to Afghanistan working with him. He actually un-
covered $4 billion in savings in rooting out American taxpayer
waste being conducted in Afghanistan. The IG at the Department
of Defense, the agency——
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman’s time has expired, but the——
Mr. LYNCH. OK.
Ms. GREENE [continuing]. The witness——
Mr. LYNCH. Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back. Thank you.
Ms. GREENE. OK. Thank you.
17
Mr. LYNCH. Appreciate that. Thank you.
Ms. GREENE. I now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr.
Cloud.
Mr. CLOUD. Thank you, Madam Chair. For far too long, D.C. poli-
ticians have gotten away with measuring their personal value and
worth by how much of other people’s money they give away. And
for far too long, they self-righteously have opined that the spending
was for altruistic purposes, given out of care and compassion. For
far too long, they have been more concerned with looking like they
cared than having enough care and concern to actually do the due
diligence to ensure that the tax dollars were being used wisely and
effectively. And for far too long, those of us who have worked to un-
cover waste, fraud and abuse have had to deal with what amounts
to an unconstitutional fourth branch of permanent bureaucracy
that has too often worked to ignore, obfuscate, delay, and frustrate
our efforts to bring transparency and oversight.
Over the last few weeks, the DOGE effort has begun to uncover
not only how massive the waste, fraud, and abuse is, but also the
extent at which D.C. politicians and too many obstinate bureau-
crats have coordinated to create what is essentially the largest
money laundering scheme in history. And while Americans have
been working to make ends meet, they have been using taxpayer
dollars to fund unnecessary, egregious, and even evil things here
at home and around the world. Thankfully, in DOGE, we have a
President bringing the leadership needed and a focused effort,
along with the talent, technology, tools, and transparency to this
waste, fraud, and abuse. And to those who would stand opposed to
this effort, I would just point out, while it is understandable to find
waste, fraud, and abuse that has grown and metastasized in this
government, even over decades, certainly accelerated over the last
few years, to continue to protect it is corruption. I want to thank
the Chair for beginning this war on waste on this side of Pennsyl-
vania Avenue and bringing together this Committee. This effort is
so important as we work to relieve the American people of this bur-
den of waste, fraud, and abuse.
Mr. Talcove, you mentioned in your written statement and talked
about it in your statement at the beginning, that this waste, fraud,
and abuse is a national security threat. And certainly, one of the
challenges facing us,—it is a national security threat—is our fiscal
situation. And so, we have got to find ways to find savings to the
American people in order to bring confidence to the bond markets,
to put our country on a fiscal footing, and to reverse the curse, so
to speak, that we are placing on our children and our grand-
children.
You mentioned a couple of threats, though. You mentioned inter-
nal threats. You said that these cases involve government employ-
ees, individuals entrusted with administering benefits, who, in-
stead of using their positions to approve fraudulent claims, override
security controls or even sell sensitive claimant information for
profit. Now, this is not every Federal employee for sure, but within
the context of people who are trying to give their best effort, we
have an internal threat. But you also mentioned transnational
fraud rings, terrorist nation-states; North Korea nuclear weapons
programs funded by our tax dollars; China, Nigeria, Iran, Romania,
18
Russia, not our friends, necessarily, that are being funded by tax-
payer dollars. Could you give us some examples of how this is hap-
pening?
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes. So, when you think about what happened
during the pandemic, $1 trillion was stolen. Seventy percent of that
money went overseas, and I can give you some examples. In a
Western state, they had more people applying for unemployment
insurance benefits than they had individuals over 18. The people
that were stealing the money from Romania were using it to facili-
tate other fraud schemes that include fentanyl, that include doing
things to impact our democracy.
On the insider threat, right, the first thing you have to say—and
my dad was a public servant—is 99 percent of people that work in
the public sector are honest, hardworking individuals, but there
are some—and what you need is data and technology to root that
out. There were examples during the pandemic. There were some
examples even of last week where people got into the Medicaid sys-
tem in a Western state and stole $50 million in less than 4 months.
So, you have to have these controls in place, right? These are not
individuals stealing, Mr. Cloud. These are organized criminal
groups, both domestic and transnational.
Mr. CLOUD. As you mentioned, taxpayers are being forced to fund
the demise of our own country. Mr. Whitson, I wanted to ask you
because there is a lot of talk about reconciliation right now. You
mentioned Medicaid and what could be done to bring a pretty sub-
stantial amount of savings, and this is without affecting those who
truly need Medicaid and for what the purpose of the program was
extended for now——
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman’s time has expired.
Mr. CLOUD. OK. Hopefully——
Ms. GREENE. Does the witness want to answer the question
quickly?
Mr. WHITSON. No. Only to say that, yes, there is a tremendous
amount of savings that can be found from the streamlining rule but
also work requirements in the program is another big area that can
be done in reconciliation, and that could save a significant amount
as well, $241 billion in Federal spending over 10 years.
Mr. CLOUD. Thank you.
Ms. GREENE. Thank you.
Mr. CLOUD. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. GREENE. You are welcome. I now recognize the gentleman
from California, Mr. Garcia.
Mr. GARCIA. Well, thank you. Thank you to all of our witnesses
for being here, and I want to just start off by making something
clear. I think we are all here to fight against the lies, the corrup-
tions, and the attacks on our social safety net. Now, we should in
no way be cooperating with House Republicans who want to shut
down the Department of Education and destroy Medicare and Med-
icaid, and we should not stand by as the richest man on the planet
gives himself and his companies huge tax cuts while the American
people get absolutely nothing.
Now, I find it ironic, of course, that our Chairwoman, Congress-
woman Greene, is in charge of running this committee. Now, in the
last Congress, Chairwoman Green literally showed a dick pic in our
19
Oversight congressional hearing, so I thought I would bring one as
well.
[Photo]
Mr. GARCIA. Now, this, of course, we know is president Elon
Musk. He is also the world’s richest man. He was the biggest polit-
ical donor in the last election. He has billions of dollars in conflicts
of interest, and we know that he is leading a power grab also abid-
ed by and encouraged by Donald Trump and, of course, the Chair-
woman, Congresswoman Greene.
But I also want to run through what DOGE actually is going to
do. It is a demolition plan that is going to run through our govern-
ment. DOGE is trying to abolish the Department of Education.
That means opportunities denied to kids. It means you are ripping
away opportunities for children with disabilities who are dependent
on this money. You are also halting medical research, which is also
critical, which we have to also stop. The idea that we are going to
eliminate or destroy the Department of National Institutes of
Health, NIH, is crazy. Let us talk about the Department of Labor.
We are talking about protections for working people across this
country, where people can actually complain about abuses that
their companies are making against them and their coworkers.
Workers are now going to be in danger.
Let us also talk about the Consumer Financial Protection Bu-
reau, another huge issue for us. Think about the scammers and
fraudsters that will be empowered across this country because Elon
Musk wants, essentially, these companies to have more power over
consumers and over people across this country. Look at the Centers
for Medicare and Medicaid Services. That is actually what is being
discussed partly today, healthcare, we are talking about, being de-
nied to millions of poor people, working class people, across this
country. And now, of course, they are on to their largest target, the
U.S. Social Security Administration. We are talking about the de-
struction of the actual social safety net in this country. We know
that one in five Americans collect Social Security—seniors, disabled
people. This entire plan is about hurting the American social safety
net and destroying our institutions.
And it is important that we actually call out what is happening
at this Subcommittee. This is not about working with the richest
man on the planet. This is actually about empowering. This Com-
mittee wants to empower the richest person in the world to hurt
people so they can take all of this money that they so-call want to
save, and then give it to themselves, their companies, and their bil-
lionaire friends. That is the attack that is happening in this Com-
mittee and across this country, and it is important that we call it
out.
We also know, of course, that Elon Musk is sending his unquali-
fied DOGE staff to carry out this agenda across all these agencies
and, in some cases, actually teenage staffers, no accountability, no
experience, and problematic records. They are trying to rob you,
and they are probably a minor. Thank you, and I yield back.
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman yields, and I now recognize the gen-
tleman from South Carolina, Mr. Timmons, for 5 minutes.
Mr. TIMMONS. Thank you, Madam Chair. I find it sad that my
colleagues across the aisle cannot take this seriously. We have $36
20
trillion in debt. We run an annual almost $2 trillion deficit. When
I got elected 6 years ago, we had $21 trillion in debt. So, in 6 years,
we have added over $15 trillion to the debt, and guess what? Presi-
dent Trump ran on fixing this problem. President Trump told the
American people he would right the ship financially, and he said
during the campaign that Elon Musk was going to be the person
to lead this charge, the man that has turned business after busi-
ness around. He is the richest man on the planet because he suc-
ceeds at his endeavors, and that is why President Trump has ap-
pointed him the head of this effort.
This is a very serious problem, and it is incredibly hypocritical
that my colleagues across the aisle are complaining about this be-
cause Joe Biden signed his name and wanted the American people
to believe that he had the ability to forgive $250 billion with a sig-
nature. Guess what? The Supreme Court ruled he did not. That is
our system of checks and balances. President Biden, he clearly was
experiencing cognitive decline. He did not even have the ability to
be charged with a crime as determined by his own Department of
Justice. But he signs his name, and he thinks it gives a quarter
of $1 trillion away, redistributes taxpayer dollars. It is just crazy
that we cannot come together to address the greatest national secu-
rity threat facing this country, our debt.
Now to the task at hand, Medicaid fraud. Mr. Talcove, if we im-
plement enhanced identity verification and enhanced income
verification, what will happen? How much money will we save?
Mr. TALCOVE. You will save hundreds of billions of dollars. Iden-
tity verification, elimination of self-certification, and monitoring
beneficiaries will prevent these transnational criminal groups from
accessing those systems at scale so legitimate people who need the
benefits can get them in a timely fashion.
Mr. TIMMONS. So, we are going to get actual benefits to people,
to American citizens, that are in need faster because if you do it
electronically through web-based, like they did in Missouri, where
the pilot program saved almost 20 percent of Medicaid dollars. So,
all we have to do is adopt what has already been proven in Mis-
souri, and we will save 20 percent. To the people out there listen-
ing, we spend almost $900 billion every year on Medicaid. And if
20 percent of that is saved, that is almost $200 billion dollars. We
got a $1.8 trillion annual deficit. We just knocked off $200 billion.
Let us keep this train going. The fact that the Democrats are filing
lawsuit after lawsuit to impede the efforts of President Trump to
right our fiscal ship is unforgivable. It is unforgivable.
Mr. Talcove, you talked about pandemic fraud. I have a bill that
would cause the IRS to share data with the Small Business Admin-
istration and the FBI and the Department of Justice that would
show that you were ineligible for PPP loans and you got them. So,
I think that would save probably one hundred billion. Do you think
that we should go back and take money away from people that
fraudulently got COVID money?
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes. Yes. During the pandemic, the PPP Program
was a virtual buffet for fraudsters, and it was because of that 1974
Privacy Act where data sharing and matching is virtually impos-
sible. Congress needs to change that.
21
Mr. TIMMONS. But we can do it retroactively. We can do it retro-
actively. We can find the people that stole this money, hold them
accountable, probably get some of the money back. So, I already
have that bill filed. That bill, I think, would probably get $100 bil-
lion. So, now we got enhanced identity verification, enhanced in-
come verification that has been proven in Missouri. It does work,
so I am working on that bill. We are going to drop it soon. That
is $200 billion.
There is a competition in Congress. I think we should have a
competition on this Committee. I got $300 billion in savings pro-
posed. We got to all pull our weight because we have such a mas-
sive problem right now. But I would just ask my colleagues across
the aisle to get out of the way if you do not want to help. If you
do not want to help right the fiscal ship in this country, get out
of the way. Stop filing lawsuit after lawsuit. We do not have the
financial ability to continue down this path, and we are going to
save this country with or without you. You can kick and scream all
the way, or you can get out of the way. I prefer the former. Thank
you, Madam Chair.
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman yields. I now recognize the gen-
tleman from Texas, Mr. Casar.
Mr. CASAR. This Subcommittee is supposedly about looking into
waste, fraud, and abuse. So, I would like to start talking about
independent Inspector Generals who are supposed to be looking
into waste, fraud, and abuse. Mr. Talcove, do you know how many
Inspector Generals at agencies that were investigating Elon Musk’s
companies have been fired by the Trump-Musk Administration?
Mr. TALCOVE. No.
Mr. CASAR. It is 5. Ms. Royal, the Inspector General of the De-
partment of Labor had 17 open investigations into Tesla and
SpaceX. Do you know what the Trump-Musk Administration did to
that Inspector General?
Ms. ROYAL. No.
Mr. CASAR. They fired him, and I think you all know. Mr.
Whitson, the Inspector General of the Department of Transpor-
tation was investigating Tesla. Do you know what the Trump-Musk
Administration did to that Inspector General?
Mr. WHITSON. No.
Mr. CASAR. They were fired. The Department of Defense’s Inspec-
tor General was looking into SpaceX. Mr. Hedtler, do you know
what the Trump-Musk Administration did to that Inspector Gen-
eral?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. I believe he was fired.
Mr. CASAR. Thank you. I think everybody on the panel knows
what the answer to these questions were. The U.S. Department of
Agriculture Inspector General was investigating Musk’s Neuralink.
Mr. Talcove, now, I will ask you again under oath. Do you know
what Mr. Trump did to that Inspector General that was looking
into one of Musk’s companies?
Mr. TALCOVE. No.
Mr. CASAR. He was fired. The Inspector General at the EPA was
repeatedly taking on Tesla. Mr. Hedtler, since it seems that you
are answering the questions that everyone knows the answer to, do
22
you know what the Trump-Musk Administration did to that Inspec-
tor General?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. I believe he was also fired.
Mr. CASAR. Also fired. At least five Inspector Generals that were
looking into Elon Musk’s companies were fired by the Trump-Musk
Administration. These Inspector Generals who are independent,
protected by law, they are the people that find the waste, fraud,
and abuse, and found many of the cases of waste, fraud, and abuse
that have been brought up today, fired because they were looking
into Elon Musk. At the NLRB, the National Labor Relations Board,
which is supposed to protect workers from getting their unions
busted by folks like Elon Musk, made functionally broken by the
so-called Department of Government Efficiency that really is the
Department of Government Efficiency for Elon Musk, not for you.
They are trying to shut down the Department of Education, the De-
partment of Labor.
You know what Elon Musk does not seem to be looking into? His
own contracts. Again, I will ask you, Mr. Talcove, do you know how
much money a day Mr. Musk will receive from the Federal Govern-
ment for his contracts?
Mr. TALCOVE. No.
Mr. CASAR. The answer is $8 million a day. Just last year, Elon
Musk was promised $3 billion from close to 100 contracts with the
Federal Government. Ms. Royal, do you know how much the aver-
age person in this country, who survives on Social Security, one of
our seniors who has worked their entire life, about how much they
have to survive on a day?
Ms. ROYAL. I do not.
Mr. CASAR. Sixty-five dollars a day. We are not looking into Elon
Musk’s $8 million a day. This Subcommittee, chaired by Marjorie
Taylor Greene and the House Republicans, is looking into your
grandmother’s $65 a day. Let me be clear. I think we would all
support taxpayer savings, look into money we might needlessly
send to billionaires and big corporations, find taxpayer savings, and
send it back to your hard-working family. But instead, what House
Republicans and the Trump-Musk Administration want to do is
they want to look into your kid’s lunch money, your kid’s teacher’s
salary, into your grandparent’s Social Security. They want to take
that money and give it out in billionaire tax cuts. And they are
talking about that in Budget Committee tomorrow. They just re-
leased their plan.
So, let me be clear. When Republicans talk about government ef-
ficiency in this Congress, they are not looking into billionaires who
do not pay their taxes. They are not looking into billionaires who
get rich off of government contracts. They are not looking into Elon
Musk firing watchdogs who are supposed to keep him accountable.
They are looking at cutting your public schools. They are going
straight for your Social Security. They are coming straight for can-
cer research. They are coming straight for the Department of Edu-
cation. They are not looking at Big Tech. They are not looking at
Big Pharma because those people fund their campaigns.
If this Committee were serious about rooting out waste from our
Federal Government, then today’s whole hearing would be about
how Musk and Donald Trump are firing the independent watch-
23
dogs who have done this work for decades. Instead, my Republican
colleagues’ actual goal on this committee is to distract from Trump
and from Musk’s corrupt war on accountability. This will not be a
Subcommittee dedicated to making government efficient for every-
day people. It is about helping Elon Musk and Donald Trump be
as efficient as possible in robbing our government and handing out
our government services to the rich. So, this seems that this sub-
committee is just going to be——
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman’s time——
Mr. CASAR [continuing]. Like the agency——
Ms. GREENE [continuing]. Has expired.
Mr. CASAR [continuing]. It is named after——
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman’s——
Mr. CASAR [continuing]. A sham.
Ms. GREENE [continuing]. Time has expired.
Mr. CASAR. A total sham.
Ms. GREENE. The American people are $36 trillion in debt. It cer-
tainly seems reasonable that someone has been fired. I now recog-
nize the gentleman from Tennessee——
Mr. CASAR. You are going to put us——
Ms. GREENE [continuing]. Mr. Burchett.
Mr. CASAR [continuing]. Further in debt with your billionaire tax
cuts.
Ms. GREENE. You are not recognized. Mr. Burchett, you are rec-
ognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. BURCHETT. Thank you, Chairlady. The gravy train for a lot
of these folks, it has been on biscuit wheels, and it is about to run
off the dadgum tracks, and it is about time. Could you imagine
standing up here and defending waste, fraud, and abuse? But I
think that is what we are seeing. When people squeal and do not
ask questions, I think it shows the American public what the heck
is going on, and that little gravy train is getting ready to run out.
The spigot is getting ready to be turned off.
Mr. Talcove, that is correct how you say your name, brother?
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BURCHETT. All right. How can the Federal Government im-
prove identity verification for these entitlement programs?
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes, it is doing what the private sector does every
single day. Whether you use your bank, you go to Amazon, using
those tools and moving away from some of the dated compliance
standards that the Federal Government uses, NIST IAL 800–63,
2017, before there was anything called deepfakes and generative AI
tools.
Mr. BURCHETT. Also, I was informed that PayPal, they have
never been able to crack into that and steal people’s vital informa-
tion. Are they using those systems that you would be favorable to-
ward that government seems to be shying away from?
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BURCHETT. And describe how that works.
Mr. TALCOVE. They are systems that are based on encryption.
They use technology and they use data to validate you are who you
say you are. The people that are stealing right now, I believe a lot
of them are actually ghosts from China, Russia, Nigeria, and Ro-
mania.
24
Mr. BURCHETT. I read a report today that North Korea was in-
volved in some of that as well——
Mr. TALCOVE. They are.
Mr. BURCHETT [continuing]. And those people are our enemies.
Again, they will hate us for free. We do not have to give them tax-
payer money. And are there loopholes that can be closed to avoid
these improper payments, and I wish you would describe those to
me.
Mr. TALCOVE. All right. The biggest, most important thing, par-
ticularly in the benefit program space, is the use of self-certifi-
cation. As Mr. Timmons noted, the state of Missouri is using a so-
lution called SteadyIQ to validate wages and wealth. You cannot
allow individuals to provide the information based upon what they
think. It has to be based on what you know, and that will stop the
ghosts from using people’s identities to steal money from U.S. tax-
payers.
Mr. BURCHETT. How much money do you calculate is wasted due
to waste, fraud, and abuse in the entitlement programs each year?
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes. My number right now, between Federal, state,
and local government is you can save $1 trillion a year by simply
putting in front-end identity verification, eliminating self-certifi-
cation, and monitoring the backend of the programs that are pro-
viding the benefits, those three things.
Mr. BURCHETT. You said you could eliminate that, but are there
others that you feel like some more low-hanging fruit?
Mr. TALCOVE. I would start with those three things because they
are simple. That will take that 20-percent fraud rate that you are
seeing in the public sector down below 5 percent.
Mr. BURCHETT. Chairlady, I would suggest that we adopt Mr.
Timmons’ legislation and get that out of the Committee as fast as
possible. What actions also could Congress take to fix these prob-
lems quickly?
Mr. TALCOVE. Yes. I think the first thing is updating and redoing
the 1974 Privacy Act. That is virtually impossible to do data
matching. It is very difficult to have data shared, and when you
look back at the pandemic, data sharing and data matching would
have stopped probably 50 percent of the trillion dollars that was
stolen from taxpayers.
Mr. BURCHETT. Would any of you all like to add anything to
that?
Mr. WHITSON. Congressman, I would just add that rather than
accepting self-attestation, that states should have to be required to
actually verify people’s identities—and here is the key part—before
they get enrolled. They should not get enrolled and then eventually
come down later on down the road.
Mr. BURCHETT. It is amazing to me. I had a doctor’s appointment
back in Knoxville, and the verification process is very extensive. It
is more so than the Federal Government requires for any of this.
What type of computer systems are these agencies using and do
they need updating?
Mr. TALCOVE. They are using very dated technology, but they are
also burdened. I look at the USDA, 6.2 million words in a 10,000-
page document that shows how to implement the rules of the pro-
gram. Nobody can figure that out. So, one of the things that I think
25
has to happen is the simplification of these processes and systems,
and then just use the technology that we use every day in the pri-
vate sector.
Mr. BURCHETT. OK. Thank you all so much for being here.
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman’s time has expired.
Mr. BURCHETT. Thank you, Chairlady.
Ms. GREENE. I now recognize the gentlewoman from Texas, Ms.
Crockett, for 5 minutes.
Ms. CROCKETT. Thank you, Madam Chair, and, Mr. Talcove, I am
just going to go ahead and pick up where you left off really quickly.
Just to be clear, the upgrades that you are talking about as it re-
lates to our data processes, these are not things that would be free,
are they? Would they cost some kind of money? Not looking for a
number, but they will cost, correct?
Mr. TALCOVE. Some are free and some would cost money.
Ms. CROCKETT. OK. All right. So, I just want to leave it there be-
cause we have had a number of these hearings, so I do want to be
clear. Before the Trump Administration came in, this Committee
did exist in the form of the Oversight Committee, and our task is
to root out waste, fraud, and abuse. In that vein, we had a number
of hearings, at least last term—I cannot speak for any other term
as I am only in my sophomore term—and we dealt with improper
payments. And interestingly enough, our Chairwoman, who was so
passionate about this today, she missed every single one of those
improper payment hearings.
But just to be clear, I was there, so I do not want anyone to be-
lieve that Democrats just come to work and do not plan to do work.
In fact, I am trying to figure out exactly what it is that the Repub-
licans believe our job is because right now, they have relinquished
their constitutional duties over to an unelected bureaucrat, some-
one who no one went out to vote for, and, absolutely, he is occu-
pying the Oval Office, as we saw yesterday. And that is a first for
me, to see someone occupying the Oval Office who has never actu-
ally been elected to the Oval Office and actually answering more
questions than the person that allegedly got elected. But for what-
ever reason, this is the first time we are having a DOGE Sub-
committee hearing and that guy is not here. Instead, we have you
all, so I do want to thank you for coming.
But I will say this. It is also interesting to me that in the first
few days of DOGE existing, we know that they are trying to get
rid of the Department of Education, USAID, Consumer Financial
Protection Bureau. They are laying off FAA workers. They are
going after the FDA, the CDC, the HHS, the FBI agents, and they
are talking about getting rid of FEMA, and they brought you all
in. And I am going to say that I actually was shocked that there
was only one person that seemed like he was an overt Trumper,
as you laid out your opening remarks, because I anticipated that
at least one of you all would say, yes, what Elon is doing is exactly
what we would prescribe. But instead, I will applaud you because
you actually were focused. You talked about what the American
people are looking for us to do. We have actually, consistently, on
this side of the aisle, promoted this idea of making investments
into technology so that we can do things such as, say, look at the
Department of Defense.
26
The Department of Defense that takes up approximately, oh, 50
percent of our discretionary income or our discretionary spending.
Approximately 50 percent goes to Department of Defense. Depart-
ment of Defense has not been able to pass an audit in the last 6
audits, and we are not talking about pennies. I understand that we
want everything to be perfect, and if we could get all waste, fraud,
and abuse out, that would be fantastic, but let me talk about the
big numbers.
The big numbers are on that side. When we look at, say, our en-
tire workforce, our Federal workforce, as we are trying to somehow
fire all of them, they do not even make up a total of five percent.
It is even less than that when we look at our budget. But let us
talk about defense. That just happens to be the same side of the
ledger that Mr. Musk gets the vast majority of his money from. In
fact, at the same time that they were unlawful, and we will stay
in court because on this side, we believe in law and order. I mean,
a number of us are actually lawyers, but, nevertheless, we under-
stand the Constitution. We believe in that as well. And so, there
are things such as, you know, impoundment, right, because as Mr.
Whitson said, he said we need to return the power of the purse to
Congress. It never left. According to the Constitution, that is where
it is at.
Now, I know that people are confused right now because, for
whatever reason, we had a guy that went in and you talk about
people invading our data. Listen, people say that they were upset
about TikTok, but I am upset about the guy that runs Twitter who,
for sure, is doing nefarious things because I do not understand. If
you are trying to conduct audits and figure out where the waste,
fraud, and abuse is, I do not know why you would go to some tech
guy. In fact, it was only techies that were sitting there at inaugura-
tion. We did not have auditors. I would welcome auditors to come
in and do forensic audits. In fact, he sat there in the Oval Office
yesterday and he admitted that he was lying, and he was using his
propaganda machine to do it when he said that we sent millions
of dollars to Gaza for condoms. That was a lie. So, let me tell you
something, we——
Ms. GREENE. The gentlelady’s——
Ms. CROCKETT [continuing]. Were duly elected——
Ms. GREENE [continuing]. Time has expired.
Ms. CROCKETT [continuing]. And it is time for us——
Ms. GREENE. The gentlelady’s time——
Ms. CROCKETT [continuing]. To do our jobs——
Ms. GREENE [continuing]. Is expired.
Ms. CROCKETT [continuing]. And reign in this rogue actor known
as——
Ms. GREENE. The gentlelady’s time——
Ms. CROCKETT [continuing]. Elon Musk.
Ms. GREENE [continuing]. Has expired. I now recognize the gen-
tleman from Missouri, Mr. Burlison.
Mr. BURLISON. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to speak
frankly at first to the American people. We are nearing $37 trillion
in national debt. What does that mean? That means that each and
every U.S. taxpayer owes over $323,000. OK. What does that
mean? That means when the EPIC, which is the Economic Policy
27
Innovation Center, says we have $18 trillion left, that is it, $18 tril-
lion left to take out, and we are spending $2 trillion in debt every
year. Folks, we are at the precipice of a, like, a debt cycle. We are
literally at a point in which the dollar will be worth nothing. What
does that mean? And I mean, we know, Social Security goes bank-
rupt in 8 years, right? Medicare goes bankrupt in 10 years, and
then 15 years from now, the dollar is completely devalued and
worth nothing. So, what does that mean? That means your pension,
the money in your bank, you know, your savings is nothing. It is
worthless.
So, what are we doing? We are trying to save this country. We
are trying to save your pensions. We are trying to save your bank
accounts. We are trying to save this country for the next genera-
tion. And it would be nice if we had help, but instead, we have peo-
ple that are fighting us on this. And you know, I would hate to be
in the Democratic Party right now because you are in a really bad
bind. You are having to defend all of this crazy spending, all of this
crazy waste. So, how do you do it? You do ad hominem attacks. You
attack the messenger. Oh, Elon Musk, right? He is rich. He must
be evil, right? That is the attacks. Really? You cannot do any better
than that, right?
Let us talk on the policy. On the policy. Help us. We are trying
to save this country, and Elon Musk, who is making no money
doing this, is trying to save this country. Why? Because he is in-
vested in the United States of America more than anybody, right.
So, I think that we should embrace it. In fact, not a single com-
pany, Governor of any state, would ever turn down Elon Musk and
his team of DOGE from coming in and providing free services to
right the course financially in any state or organization. It is ridic-
ulous that we would demonize someone that loves this country so
much.
Mr. Whitson, the formation of agencies via the executive action
is not new, right? The formation of DOGE is not new. You know,
are you familiar with any other previous presidencies where they
have formed organizations like DOGE via executive action?
Mr. WHITSON. Yes. So, actually the agency that DOGE is occu-
pying is one that was created in a previous administration. So, it
is something that happens routinely, but I do not know if that an-
swers your question.
Mr. BURLISON. Yes. The Office of Budget Management was cre-
ated. The Environmental Protection Agency was created. The U.S.
Digital Service, which is now DOGE, was created all by executive
order, right?
Mr. WHITSON. And actually, one other I would add is USAID was
originally created through an executive order by President Ken-
nedy and then later formalized.
Mr. BURLISON. And then, Madam Chair, I have a video I would
like to end with. Let us review, if we could cue that. And I want
to remind my Democratic friends, at a point in which you once had
the majority of the American people on your side, this is what your
party believed in.
[Video shown.]
Mr. BURLISON. I think it speaks for itself. My time has expired.
28
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman’s time has expired. Thank you. I
now yield to the gentlewoman from the District of Columbia, Ms.
Norton, for 5 minutes.
Ms. NORTON. Thank you. Our Republican colleagues and the
Trump Administration continue to demonize our friends and neigh-
bors who work for the Federal Government and swear an oath to
protect the Constitution and serve the public. Thousands of civilian
Federal employees have given their lives in the line of duty for
their country. The Administration seems intent on dismantling
much of the Federal Government in violation of the Constitution,
statutes, and regulations, and our Republican colleagues are letting
them do it. They want to gut the nonpartizan civil service and to
convert a significant portion of the remaining civil service into po-
litical appointees. Depriving the Federal Government of employees’
expertise and experience will harm the services that the govern-
ment provides to all Americans.
Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, the Administration is attempting to cause
a mass exodus from our Federal workforce. Will this increase or de-
crease waste, fraud, and abuse?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. Thank you, Delegate Norton. I think it
is pretty clear that chaos is not the friend of efficiency. If you un-
dermine the very functionality of the government, you are not
going to make it more efficient. You are going to make it worse,
and it is going to cost even more money to recoup or to fix things
that go wrong in the interim. Again, I mentioned earlier that if you
care about waste, fraud, and abuse, firing Inspectors General does
not add up. I think if you care about government being more effi-
cient, then intentionally creating chaos is the opposite of that.
Ms. NORTON. Well, Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette, do Federal employees
operate without oversight or rules and regulations?
Mr. HEDTLER-GAUDETTE. No, absolutely not. They are governed
by plenty of rules and regulations, and when there are independent
Inspectors General at the agency they are supposed to be at, they
also have a cop on the beat making sure that they do so.
Ms. NORTON. I want to highlight some stories demonstrating ex-
actly the kinds of Federal workers the Administration is trying to
force out. How about Chris Mark at the Department of Labor,
whose pioneering work on mine safety has reduced miner safety
deaths from roof collapses to almost zero today; or Jarod Koopman,
at the Internal Revenue Service, who pioneered new methods for
tracking criminal cybersecurity currency transactions that led to
the rescue of 23 children from rape and assault, as well as the sei-
zure of hundreds of millions of child abuse videos and 370
pedophile arrests. This work also prevented funding from going to
terrorist groups; or Ronald E. Walters, who manages the 155 na-
tional cemeteries around the country and tends to the resting
places of almost 4 million veterans. These are just a few of the Fed-
eral workers who serve Americans every day. The workers are
wildland firefighters, border guards, doctors, nurses, food inspec-
tors, air traffic controllers, and law enforcement that do their civic
duty, often despite the fact that they could make such more in the
private sector. Thank you, and I yield back.
Ms. GREENE. The gentlelady yields. I now yield to the gentleman
from Georgia, Mr. Jack.
29
Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much. Thank you very much,
Madam Chair, and I want to also thank you for convening this
hearing. I think it is incredibly important, and I want to thank our
witnesses for appearing before us today. Like another Member of
this Committee, I, too, was once an employee of the Executive Of-
fice of the President. I worked in President Trump’s White House
from the very first to the very last day of his first term, and I saw
firsthand how entrenched and resistant the Federal bureaucracy
was to his agenda. So, it is no surprise that, today, a few of my
Democrat colleagues have continued that trend by using their time
to bash Elon Musk instead of discussing ways to work together to
advance a bipartisan cornerstone of President Trump’s agenda, the
mission to eliminate, finally eliminate, waste, fraud, and abuse.
And I just took a rudimentary count of the Dems’ testimony, or
rather comments, today, and I have got 27 mentions of Elon Musk
and 3 mentions of waste, and I do not know if that is, in fact, the
right count. I encourage anybody to fact-check me. But I think it
illuminates and illustrates one of the problems that we are facing,
which is a lack of bipartisan effort to address these critical things.
You know, waste, fraud, and abuse is something that should be bi-
partisan. The Chair noted that in her opening remarks.
Now, Madam Chair, you know how much I enjoy studying public
opinion. So, with your approval, I would like to enter into the
record the CBS news poll from this past weekend conducted Feb-
ruary 5 to 7, 2025. And I would also like to illuminate two findings.
First, 70 percent of Americans, Democrats and Republicans in-
cluded, believe President Trump is already doing the job that he
was elected to do, which is interesting because I have an article
here from CNN from September 2024 that notes, ‘‘Trump says Elon
Musk Has Agreed to Lead Proposed Government Efficiency Com-
mission as Ex-President Unveils New Economic Plans’’. So, he is
doing exactly what he said he would do by empowering his Admin-
istration to root out waste, fraud, and abuse, and that is exactly
what we are trying to do here today. I would also like to note one
interesting statistic from that. Sixty-two percent of Americans
want Democrats in Congress to work with us to advance the prior-
ities that President Trump was elected to, to govern on. So, I think
those are two stats that I hope everyone pays attention to.
But to ask questions of our witnesses, I would first like to start
with Mr. Talcove. You know, one of the things that I found very
interesting from your opening testimony is you talked, and I think
you engaged with Mr. Burchett, on the 1974 Privacy Act. And I had
some interesting folks visit my office yesterday who noted that one-
third of all prior authorizations are still done manually by phone,
fax, or direct post mail. First off, I would love your comments on
that, and I would also like for you to expound upon some of the
solutions that we can deliver, this Congress, in modernizing that
1974 Privacy Act.
Mr. TALCOVE. These are not people problems. These are tech-
nology problems. You cannot process the number of individuals
that are accessing our systems person by person. It just takes too
much time. So, by updating the 1974 Privacy Act and allowing for
digital matching, you would have very quickly realized that a large
portion of the PPP loan funds were going to the wrong person. You
30
would have been quickly able to match, and I think the number
was 20 percent were on the Do Not Pay list. You cannot expect peo-
ple to do what a machine, and especially AI, can do today.
Mr. JACK. Fair enough. Thank you very much for that. And if I
can also ask Mr. Whitson, I think we share a common interest,
which is to move departments and agencies outside of Washington,
DC. It is something that I campaigned on, something that I helped
President Trump effectuate in his first Administration. And I have
to imagine that if we have departments and agencies outside of
D.C., if we have got, you know, a workforce that is more reflective
of the balance that America is, we, at the same time, too, could po-
tentially root out some of this waste, fraud, and abuse by enabling
other Americans, other citizens of our country, to help advance
some of these issues. So, I would love your commentary on that be-
fore my time expires.
Mr. WHITSON. No, I think you are exactly right, Congressman
Jack. And so, I think, A, you would save a lot of taxpayer money.
So, building a headquarters in downtown D.C. versus Huntsville,
Alabama, you are going to be able to save a lot of money. No. 2
is you are actually going to make life better for the employees as
well. So, that is a point that is also missed a lot, but commuting
into D.C. versus being able to go somewhere else, where it is a bet-
ter cost of living and things like that, might be better for the folks.
And then last, these areas where you set up a headquarters are
going to be populated by people that live in the area to fill the rank
and file of staff positions. And so, if you plant these Federal agency
headquarters in the heart of any area that is overwhelmingly one
party or the other, then you are going to naturally get that sway
versus something that is more representative of the people as a
whole.
Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much to our witnesses. Mindful
of my time, I want to finish before my time expires. I yield back
to our Chairwoman, Marjorie Taylor Greene.
Ms. GREENE. Thank you.
Mr. CASAR. And Chairwoman, I would like to ask for unanimous
consent to enter something into the record.
Ms. GREENE. So, what is it?
Mr. CASAR. It is a report from the Congressional Research Serv-
ice, nonpartisan CRS, that lays out the rules and the law for firing
inspectors general, which, of course, look into waste, fraud, and
abuse. And that rule——
Ms. GREENE. Without objection.
Mr. CASAR. Thank you. And that rule requires that for the law
to be followed, for Congress to be notified with 30 days and a rea-
son for firing Inspectors General, to give Congress a chance to over-
rule that, and that is the law. So, thank you for entering that into
the record.
Ms. STANSBURY. Madam Chair?
Ms. GREENE. Without objection, the materials Mr. Jack cited are
also submitted for the record. I now recognize—yes?
Ms. STANSBURY. Apologies. And while we are on it, I would also
like to ask for unanimous consent to submit for the record two
items. One is a statement from the AFL–CIO Department of People
who work for a living with views on working people to make the
31
government work. And the second is a statement from the Center
for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington on ways to combat
waste, fraud, and abuse in the Federal Government.
Ms. GREENE. Without objection, so ordered.
I now recognize the gentlelady from New Mexico and Ranking
Member, Ms. Stansbury, for 5 minutes.
Ms. STANSBURY. All right. Well, thank you, Madam Chairwoman,
and thank you once again to all of our witnesses for being here to
testify. Thank you to my colleagues.
We are going to have so much fun in this Committee this Con-
gress. I actually appreciate the video that was shown just a few
moments ago because when I worked at the Office of Management
and Budget, I actually worked on the waste EO that was ref-
erenced that President Obama signed. But there is one funda-
mental difference between the Presidents and Vice Presidents that
were shown on that video and what is happening today, and that
is that they followed the law.
So, my colleagues across the aisle who are asking us to get out
of the way and stop trying to block things in the courts, let me tell
you, we do not work for an unelected billionaire like apparently
this guy does. We work for the American people. And so, if an
unelected, unvetted individual private citizen is hacking our gov-
ernment systems, breaking the law, firing Federal employees, dis-
mantling statutorily created agencies, withholding funds, we are
going to fight you in the courts.
And I am actually really sad that my dear friend, Mr. Burchett,
left, because I want to talk about that gravy train on biscuit wheels
that he just talked about because that gravy train is not the Fed-
eral workforce. It is the billionaires that are trying to hack that
system right now and which, unfortunately, my colleagues right
now are working on a reconciliation deal to cut Medicaid, to cut
Medicare, and use that money to give to tax breaks to their billion-
aire buddies. That is the gravy train that is actually going on here,
but because this is the Oversight Committee, let us do a little bit
of oversight.
For the last several weeks, I have been talking to Treasury and
OMB officials to try to get to the bottom of why Elon Musk and
his team are trying to hack the Treasury payment system because
this is a completely nonpartisan system that literally just pays the
bills of the Federal Government. So, why are they so eager to hack
this system? And I have to say that over the last several weeks,
we have literally received thousands of calls in every single con-
gressional office. In fact, we know that our friends across the aisle
are also receiving these calls because this system pays the bills of
the U.S. Government. It pays our soldiers. It pays for the work that
we do overseas. It pays your Social Security benefits. It pays your
tax refunds. So, why is Elon Musk and his hackers trying to access
that system? And why did a senior civil servant, who had overseen
this system for over 30 years, get asked to stand down after a 25-
year-old intern working for Elon Musk tried to get access to the
code for that system?
Now, thankfully, they were shut down in the Court system, but
Musk has installed, with the President’s blessing, one of his Silicon
Valley buddies, who, I want to point out, in which the media has
32
not paid a lot of attention to, is the CEO of a private IT company,
including Citrix, that has millions of dollars in IT contracts with
the Federal Government. And not only is he still operating as the
installed DOGE person at Treasury, he is actively still the CEO of
this private company. How is that even legal? Is it legal? I do not
think it is legal because the Federal Court is trying to shut this
down. We also know that that 25-year-old software engineer, in vio-
lation of the Court order, was actually given access to modify the
code.
So, what is going on here, and why is this such a threat to the
American people? Why are thousands of people calling us? It is be-
cause of the size and the significance of these payments, because
it is an invasion of the privacy and security of the American people,
because it could threaten our ability as a country if there was a de-
fault in the debt ceiling, and because it contains highly classified
information that our foreign adversaries are trying to cyberattack
us regularly for.
So, why is a private citizen being given access to this system? We
know they are trying to shut down payments. They are trying to
shut down agencies. What is next? Are they going to shut down
your Social Security payments? We do not know because they have
no oversight, and Elon Musk will not come in front of this Com-
mittee. And in fact, the Treasury folks are saying this is the big-
gest insider threat they have ever seen in the history of the agency.
So, we are sounding the alarm. And no matter how many execu-
tive orders that Donald Trump signs or how many tweets that the
VP sends, you cannot rewrite the Constitution, and we are going
to hold you to account. I yield back.
Ms. GREENE. The gentlelady yields, and I now recognize——
Mr. BURLISON. Madam Chair?
Ms. GREENE. Oh, yes?
Mr. BURLISON. I have three documents I want to submit for the
record. The first——
Ms. GREENE. What are they?
Mr. BURLISON. The first document is the Constitution, Article II.
I would like to submit that for the record. That clearly spells out
the President’s authority. I would also like to submit, for the
record, 5 U.S. Code 3161, the employment compensation of employ-
ees, which clearly spells out his authority to create DOGE. And
then, I want to submit for the record the executive order that
Trump issued on January 20 of 2025, establishing DOGE officially.
Ms. GREENE. Without objection, so ordered.
I now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gill, for 5 min-
utes.
Mr. GILL. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for hosting
this Committee.
If we have learned anything so far, it is that Republicans want
to cut waste, fraud, and abuse from our Federal Government and
save taxpayer dollars, and Democrats want to grandstand and play
politics. We can see right now even, of the 6 Democrats on this
Committee, only one can even be bothered to stay for the duration
of this hearing.
All we have heard about for most of this hearing from the other
side of the aisle is ‘‘Elon Musk, Elon Musk, Elon Musk, unelected
33
bureaucrat.’’ And I would like to ask if Democrats really care about
unelected bureaucrats making decisions over our lives, where were
they whenever their god, Anthony Fauci, was forcing vaccine and
mask mandates on the American people for 4 years during the—
excuse me—during the COVID crisis? Where were they whenever
unelected Alejandro Mayorkas was facilitating the invasion of our
country by illegal aliens who were murdering and raping and pil-
laging our people? Where were they whenever the Secretary of
Education, unelected Cardona, targeted states and schools and peo-
ple who disagreed with his view of the radical left’s transgender
ideology. Where were they whenever Gary Gensler, former Chair-
man of the SEC, also unelected, was lawlessly thwarting the devel-
opment of financial markets, particularly in the crypto space, by
lawlessly pursuing regulation via enforcement? They were nowhere
to be seen because they do not care because all of those things ben-
efited their side of the aisle at the expense of ours.
And perhaps that is also why they do not seem to be very inter-
ested in rooting out improper payments from our Federal Govern-
ment. If you wonder why so many people are cynical about Amer-
ican politics, this is it. This is exactly why. The reality is that Elon
Musk serves as an employee of the President, and we were given
a massive mandate to carry out what he is been doing. His job is
to carry out the will of the American people, as expressed through
the executive. That is exactly how the Constitution is supposed to
work. The Constitution did not create an unelected, unaccountable
fourth branch of government in the administrative state. The
American people know this.
My colleague, Brian Jack, discussed some of the opinion polls re-
cently. We are doing and President Trump is doing exactly what
he was elected to do, and that is why he is polling at a 53-percent
approval rating higher than he was at any point during his first
Administration. Even Elon Musk and his DOGE efforts now are
polling at a 49-percent approval rating, which, just to point out, is
16 points higher than President Biden was polling at whenever he
finished his term in office.
The Democrat Party has, for decades, systematically grown and
weaponized the administrative state against the American people,
and the American people have had enough of it. Right now, we are
talking about $2.7 trillion in improper payments since 2003. We
are uncovering what could be the biggest money laundering scan-
dal in American history, and the other side of the aisle could care
less. They have no concern about where this money went to, what
entities it went to, what governments, to what people or groups.
Nothing. All they want to talk about is Elon Musk incessantly.
So, it does make me wonder, if they do not care about where it
is going, do they have an idea? Because what we have uncovered
so far is that so much of the waste, fraud, and abuse of our Federal
Government is actually funding their side of the aisle. It is funding
media outlets that are running cover for Democrats routinely: NPR,
PBS, the BBC, Politico. It is going to fund leftwing NGO’s that are
facilitating the invasion of our country. It is going to fund leftwing
transgender activism and sex changes all over the globe. This is
money that is being used—taken from the American people and
used against their interests. If you care about rooting out waste,
34
fraud, and abuse, we should be serious about this. I am very ex-
cited to be on this committee. I am excited to expose what has been
going on. Thank you, Madam Chair, and with that, I yield.
Ms. GREENE. The gentleman yields. In closing, I want to thank
our witnesses again for their testimoneys today. I now yield to the
Ranking Member for closing remarks.
Ms. STANSBURY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Well, I never
thought so many conspiracy theories and wild accusations could be
wound into one 5-minute speech, but I appreciate my friends across
the aisle.
First of all, let us talk about this massive mandate that sup-
posedly brought Donald Trump into office. Donald Trump did not
run on putting an unelected billionaire in charge of dismantling the
Federal Government. He ran on lowering prices for Americans, and
I think it is interesting that while we are sitting here this morning,
the top of the New York Times is reporting that inflation has risen
unexpectedly as food and energy prices have soared.
What is going on, guys? I thought you were going to tackle infla-
tion and food and energy prices. Isn’t that what the executive or-
ders were supposed to do? Oh, wait, or is dismantling diversity, eq-
uity, and inclusion in our Federal agencies and putting in ideolog-
ical agenda and trying to fire the Federal workforce your actual
agenda? Have you been too busy trying to actually address the fis-
cal health of this country because the numbers are telling us that
you have. So, let us be real about what is going on here.
I also want to point out that, literally, while we have been sitting
here for the last almost 2 hours getting lectured on fiscal responsi-
bility, literally, the Republicans just released their plan to raise the
debt limit while we were sitting here, and they want to raise it by
$4 trillion. OK, guys, like, literally, I am just, like, without words.
Inflation is going up. You want to raise the debt ceiling by $4 tril-
lion. You want to gut Medicare. You want to gut Medicaid. You are
talking about going after Social Security after promising that you
would not. I mean, really, what the heck is going on here? We are
not trying to take down Elon Musk as a businessman. This dude
is literally breaking the law inside of the Federal Government. And
for a party that is supposed to be the ‘‘party of law and order,’’ I
really do not see you holding him accountable and doing your most
basic constitutional responsibility in the separation of powers.
So, I want to end where I started. We are the Oversight Com-
mittee. We are the people’s House for the United States of America.
We represent the American people. And so, Mr. Elon Musk, if you
would like to appear in front of the Oversight Committee, you have
been duly invited. Please, come tell us what you are doing. Come
testify in front of the American people, and please come hold your-
self to account. With that, I yield back.
Ms. GREENE. The gentlelady yields. I now recognize myself for
closing remarks. President Trump was elected with a mandate to
rein in unaccountable bureaucracy in Washington and to wage war
on waste. I know that because I campaigned alongside him and so
did my colleagues. This hearing was the first battle of that war,
and in the coming days, the Subcommittee will release a report
with legislative solutions to the problems we have identified here
today. We are not going to wait all the way until the end of this
35
Congress. We are going to get to work immediately. The bureau-
crats who have run Washington for decades are beyond the point
of forgiveness. Their sheer incompetence and pure spite for the
hardworking American people have resulted in total failure.
The Federal Government has made over $2.7 trillion in improper
payments since 2003, including $236 billion in 2023 alone. Those
are trillions of dollars that honest Americans have paid in taxes at
gunpoint over the years. As we approach April 15, Americans are
once again preparing to do their taxes and fork over their unfair
share of money it takes to run this country. And I have to tell you,
the American people have not been getting their money’s worth for
a long time. Most improper payments in recent years were issued
through five programs—Medicare, Medicaid, the Earned Income
Tax Credit, Pandemic Unemployment Insurance, and the Paycheck
Protection Program—but a total of 16 Federal programs had im-
proper payment rates of 10 percent or more in 2023. That includes
SNAP, the Federal Food Stamp Program, which paid out $10 bil-
lion taxpayer dollars improperly.
To get their arms around this problem, Elon Musk and the
DOGE team went straight to the source. They went to the Treas-
ury Department’s Fiscal Service, which makes about 90 percent of
the trillions in Federal payments issued annually. The audit of
these payment systems was long overdue. Treasury Secretary,
Scott Bessent, gave DOGE employees working for the government
read-only access to these systems so they could conduct that initial
audit. That audit is already paying dividends. Musk learned that
the data base’s Federal agencies are supposed to check to prevent
payments to fraudsters, crime rings, and dead people are not being
kept up to date. Going forward, we are going to get more mileage
out of these Do Not Pay data bases. That means fewer improper
payments and less fraud and waste of taxpayer dollars.
Despite this fraud that is already been revealed, a Federal judge
in New York issued a ruling last Friday that ran totally contrary
to the will of the people. The judge blocked not only DOGE, but the
Treasury Secretary himself from accessing his own Agency’s pay-
ment systems. That is absurd. Only career Treasury Department
unelected bureaucrats can access the system, the judge ruled. This
turns the Constitution on its head. We will hold this judge and oth-
ers who try to stop the will of the people and their elected leaders
accountable. As is written in the Federalist Papers, ‘‘the judiciary
has no influence over either the sword or the purse, no direction,
either of the strength or the wealth of the society. It may truly be
said to have neither force nor will, but merely judgment, and must
ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm for the effi-
cacy of its judgments.’’
But the whole D.C. swamp is freaking out that the unelected offi-
cials from DOGE were allowed access to these systems. That makes
no sense. Federal judges were not elected, the Treasury bureau-
crats were not elected, and they have failed to fix the problem that
is enabling American taxpayers to be robbed. So, why not bring in
skilled outside experts, like private companies and private citizens
who are successful in the real world, to do everyday work that we
need to get done here, like audits? Of course, Federal payment sys-
tems are only one link in the improper payment chain. We need to
36
look at other links in the chain. We need better front-end identify
verification to screen out fraudsters, and we need to close eligibility
loopholes. That means not letting applicants self-attest to their own
eligibility, and it means ending categorical eligibility, which lets
someone who fraudulently qualifies for one Federal benefit auto-
matically get other Federal benefits.
Finally, we need to better coordinate fraud prevention efforts be-
tween the Federal Government and the states. These are all issues
that we will be taking a hard look at in this Committee and coming
up with solutions to, including legislation and referrals to commit-
tees of jurisdiction, that will deliver for the American people.
With that, and without objection, all Members have 5 legislative
days within which to submit materials and additional written ques-
tions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, the Sub-
committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:59 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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