Athletes and Innovators: Analyzing Nil's Impact on Entrepreneurial Collegiate Athletes (House Small Business Committee hearing, September 20, 2023)
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Transcript of the House Committee on Small Business hearing Athletes and Innovators: Analyzing NIL's Impact on Entrepreneurial Collegiate Athletes, convened September 20, 2023 during the 118th Congress, First Session, published as Small Business Committee Document Number 118-026 (GPO 53-333). Chairman Roger Williams and Ranking Member Nydia Velázquez led the session. Witnesses were Jeremiah Donati of Texas Christian University, Gene Smith of The Ohio State University, Gino Torretta, and Madeline Salamone of the College Football Players Association. The appendix includes prepared statements, responses from Gene Smith to Representative Aaron Bean, an Austin American-Statesman article by Senator Ted Cruz, text of H.R. 9698, and a submission from myNILpay, Inc.
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“Athletes and Innovators: Analyzing Nil's Impact on Entrepreneurial Collegiate Athletes (House Small Business Committee hearing, September 20, 2023).”
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ATHLETES AND INNOVATORS: ANALYZING NIL’S
IMPACT ON ENTREPRENEURIAL COLLEGIATE
ATHLETES
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD
SEPTEMBER 20, 2023
Small Business Committee Document Number 118–026
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
53–333 WASHINGTON : 2023
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TRACEY MANN, Kansas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARC MOLINARO, New York
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
ELI CRANE, Arizona
AARON BEAN, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
NICK LALOTA, New York
NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
JARED GOLDEN, Maine
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ, Washington
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
SHRI THANEDAR, Michigan
JUDY CHU, California
SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
BEN JOHNSON, Majority Staff Director
MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director
(II)
CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................ 1
Hon. Nydia Velázquez ............................................................................................. 3
WITNESSES
Mr. Jeremiah Donati, Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, Texas Christian
University, Fort Worth, TX ................................................................................. 7
Mr. Gene Smith, Senior Vice President & Wolfe Foundation Endowed Athletic
Director, The Ohio State University, Columbus, OH ........................................ 9
Mr. Gino Torretta, Heisman Trophy Winner, 2-Time National Champion,
College Football Hall of Fame Inductee ............................................................. 10
Ms. Madeline Salamone, Vice President (Attorney & Athlete Advocate), Col-
lege Football Players Association (CFBPA), Sarasota, FL, testifying on be-
half of CFBPA ...................................................................................................... 11
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Mr. Jeremiah Donati, Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, Texas Chris-
tian University, Fort Worth, TX .................................................................. 39
Mr. Gene Smith, Senior Vice President & Wolfe Foundation Endowed
Athletic Director, The Ohio State University, Columbus, OH .................. 41
Mr. Gino Torretta, Heisman Trophy Winner, 2-Time National Champion,
College Football Hall of Fame Inductee ...................................................... 44
Ms. Madeline Salamone, Vice President (Attorney & Athlete Advocate),
College Football Players Association (CFBPA), Sarasota, FL, testifying
on behalf of CFBPA ...................................................................................... 46
Questions and Answers for the Record:
Questions from Hon. Bean to Mr. Gene Smith and Answers from Mr.
Gene Smith .................................................................................................... 57
Additional Material for the Record:
Article - Senator Ted Cruz - Austin American-Statesman ........................... 58
H.R. 9698 ........................................................................................................... 61
myNILpay, Inc. ................................................................................................. 67
(III)
ATHLETES AND INNOVATORS: ANALYZING
NIL’S IMPACT ON ENTREPRENEURIAL
COLLEGIATE ATHLETICS
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2023
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:01 a.m., in Room
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
man of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van Duyne,
Ellzey, Molinaro, Bean, LaLota, Velázquez, Mfume, Landsman,
McGarvey, Scholten, Thanedar, Davids, and Pappas.
Also Present: Representative Carey.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started today, I want to
recognize Congressman Ellzey from the great State of Texas to say
the Pledge of Allegiance and a short prayer.
ALL. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of
America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under
God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Please bow.
Mr. ELLZEY. Heavenly Father, we thank you today for the many
blessings in our lives. We thank you for the opportunity to come
together and respectfully share our thoughts and ideas for this dia-
logue. We pray for open hearts and open minds as we listen to each
other and participate in this Committee hearing. May we engage
in meaningful discussion today and remember to honor your will in
all that we do. We ask these things in your name. Amen.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Also, I want to say, as we go through the
hearing, you are going to see people coming, you are going to see
people going. We have other hearings going on today, and Members
are also Members of other committees. So when they get up and
leave, don’t let that alarm you. All right?
Good morning. I now call the Committee on Small Business to
order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of
the Committee at any time.
I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
Welcome to today’s hearing which will focus on the impact of the
NCAA’s name, image, and likeness policy across college athletics.
I would like to thank all of our witnesses here today for their time
as we discuss this potential issue.
(1)
2
For the first 115 years of the NCAA’s governance over college
sports, the individual college athlete had no legal right to earn a
profit from their athletic performance and was entitled to nothing
beyond room and board, meals, and education.
In 2021, after a series of court cases forced the NCAA to change
their policies, college athletics were allowed to monetize their
name, image, and likeness overnight without affecting their play-
ing eligibility, resulting in sanctions against their university.
While we are still in the early years of this new NIL era, I think
it is necessary to take a look at the positive and negative con-
sequences of this drastic change in policy.
To start with the obvious good, student-athletes can now profit
during their time playing college sports. Of the roughly 480,000
student-athletes, fewer than 2 percent go on to play professional
sports, and in the first full year of NIL, there were almost $1 bil-
lion in deals made.
NIL has opened up fantastic new opportunities for entrepre-
neurial college athletes to look for different avenues to partner
with big and small businesses. This not only allows these students
to earn money, but also allows them valuable business lessons that
they can utilize after a time playing college sports. Whether it be
negotiating contracts, navigating regulations, or being exposed by
paying taxes for the very first time, all of these skills are extremely
valuable as we build up a new generation of entrepreneurs.
Additionally, small businesses have been able to utilize the stu-
dent-athletes as a new way to market their business. While we
often hear about high-profile athletes with their massive deals, this
is not the norm. Many of these deals are made between small busi-
ness in the community and athletes that do not have a national
presence. This symbolic relationship helps strengthen the bonds
that tie together many of these college towns.
Now, while a lot of good has come from these changes for ath-
letics, it has not come without some negative repercussions. Since
there is no uniform set of regulations, individual States are step-
ping in and passing their own rules governing their universities.
This patchwork approach is putting all the causes of students who
compete in different States in an awkward position of choosing to
comply with the State law, NCAA guidelines, or conference regula-
tions that might be conflicting.
I am glad that we have two athletic directors here today that un-
derstand the complexity that this is forcing their universities and
students to navigate, who will be able to shine some light on what
will happen if we continue that overreaching set of rules and regu-
lations that everyone follows.
Additionally, with so much money changing hands, there has
been an increased number of bad actors looking to take advantage
of these high school and college athletes. NBC News conducted an
investigation where they reviewed dozens of NIL contracts offered
to high school athletes. They describe many of the deals as
exploitive, with commissions upwards of 40 percent, along with
complex fee structures meant to confuse the athlete. In one in-
stance, the contract was put in front of the student was simply a
$100,000 loan.
3
While I am leery whether the federal government will be able to
step in and to stop some of these bad actors, I think it is important
to bring attention to this side of the issue to show that there is real
damage being done to these kids when promises are being made
but not kept. Without transparency surrounding these deals, it is
hard to know who is truly working in the best interest of the stu-
dent-athlete.
I played college athletics myself and take this issue very person-
ally. When I was in college, I received $10 a month that was called
laundry money. I am not angry that the system has changed and
think it has opened the door for many positive developments for
student-athletes, but I am passionate about keeping the system
functioning for generations to come so the students will be able to
experience what it means to truly be a student-athlete.
There are many reasons for having this hearing, but I want to
list a few. I want to know how we can inspire student-athletes to
utilize the skills they learn navigating NIL to start their own small
business. I want to hear about the best practices that universities
are doing to teach the student-athletes everything they need to
know to take advantage of the amazing opportunity that wasn’t
available for millions of athletes that came before them.
And I want to discuss the appropriate role for the NCAA moving
forward. I want to know how collectives are helping student-ath-
letes and allowing their schools to compete. I want to know how
non-revenue generating sports will fare if all money gets funneled
to the sports that make money. I want to know if Olympic and
women sports are going to be negatively affected if revenue sharing
models are implemented. And I want to understand how these
changes are affecting graduation rates if student-athletes are con-
stantly changing schools in search of the largest NIL deal. And I
want to know how smaller market schools will fare if they are con-
stantly having their players lured away by NIL deals. I want to
know what we can do to stop predatory agents and bad actors from
taking advantage of student-athletes.
And, finally, I want to know the appropriate role that the federal
government should play, if at all, in all of this.
I greatly look forward to today’s discussion, and I hope we will
bring to light the different challenges and opportunities presented
by the NIL. And it is my hope that all NIL policy changes are bene-
ficial for student-athletes above all else.
So before I yield to the Ranking Member, I would like to submit
an op-ed from Senator Cruz on this issue into the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
I also ask unanimous consent to waive on Representative Mike
Carey from Ohio for the purpose of giving an opening statement.
Without objection, so ordered.
With that, I yield to the distinguished Ranking Member from
New York, Ms. Velázquez, for her opening statement.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The success of America’s college students has been top of mind
ever since I began teaching courses at New York’s Hunter College
many years ago. The NCAA’s 2021 decision to allow college ath-
letes to make a living off their own names, images, and likeness,
or NIL, was welcome news.
4
College athletes from underserved communities, even with mod-
est deals, could finally begin building savings on generational
wealth. Many players suddenly had a way to cover rent and living
costs. In recent years, the launch and growth of the multimillion
dollar collegiate athletic market has raised question about the way
that our society treats our college athletes.
Stakeholders from across the political spectrum have voiced con-
cerns about gender inequity, predatory agent practices, and the
patchwork of confusing regulations. I am concerned with the grow-
ing trend of booster collectives steering the largest deal to the top
athletes in football and men’s basketball. Booster collectives, who
often closely coordinate with individual schools, can undermine the
gender equity progress made by Title IX and allow the collectives
to shortchange our women athletes.
The hastily drafted and inconsistent restrictions have suddenly
thrown college athletes into their first business experience. To pro-
tect them, it is critical that these students are well equipped with
resources, know-how, and a stable environment to succeed and
build strong brands. Otherwise, we run the risk of distracting our
students from their educations and endangering their financial
well-being.
Today is our chance to learn more about the opportunities and
risks that name, image, and likeness have created for our college
athletes so we can understand how best to support them.
I look forward to hearing the testimony of the witnesses.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
I now recognize Representative Mike Carey from the great State
of Ohio for his opening remarks.
Mr. CAREY. I want to thank the Chairman, I want to thank the
Ranking Member for giving me this opportunity to make remarks.
NIL is an extremely important issue, and I appreciate the Small
Business Committee for holding this very important hearing.
Thank you to the witnesses for your time today. We have an im-
pressive lineup of witnesses that includes Gene Smith, who is a
good friend of mine and who has done a tremendous job leading
‘‘the’’ Ohio State Athletic Department over the past 18 years. As
some of you know, Gene has recently announced his retirement,
and although we are sorry to see you go, I would like to congratu-
late you on an incredible career.
Mr. SMITH. Thank you.
Mr. CAREY. Being from Columbus, Ohio, which is the home of
the The Ohio State University, I have taken great interest in the
implementation of NIL in college sports, leading me, along with my
dear friend and fellow Ohioan colleague, Greg Landsman, to intro-
duce the Student-Athlete Level Playing Field Act.
In addition to earning money to help support themselves and
their families, NIL allows student-athletes to learn about personal
finance, marketing, taxes, and business in general. All of the les-
sons learned through NIL will supplement their learning in the
classroom and will help set them up for a life after college.
This is not to say that there aren’t problems with the current
state of the NIL. Without the proper education and guidance, there
is a potential for student-athletes to be taken advantage of. And by
5
no means am I saying that predatory practices are commonplace in
the NIL, but it would be disingenuous to say that they are non-
existent.
Another problem is that numerous States have implemented con-
flicting NIL laws, therefore, making the landscape for the NIL hard
to navigate for both the universities as well as our students.
Congress needs to pass legislation that will create a federal
standard for NIL, focused on protecting the recruitment process, in-
creasing transparency in the marketplace, and implementing
through enforcement mechanisms against those bad actors. This
legislation, my legislation and Greg Landsman’s, this legislation
would include the prohibition of inducements, a registration re-
quirement for agents, congressional oversight, and the establish-
ment of a clearinghouse for NIL deals to be uploaded.
And I look forward to working with my colleagues on passing leg-
islation that would create one federal standard to even the playing
field, protect our student-athletes and the future of all college ath-
letics. I feel confident in a bipartisan way that the House will be
able to pass NIL legislation this Congress.
Listen, I just want to thank you for waiving me on the Com-
mittee today and for holding this important hearing.
Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you, Congressman.
I will now introduce our witnesses. Our first witness here with
us today is Jeremiah Donati. Mr. Donati is the director of inter-
collegiate athletics at Texas Christian University located in Fort
Worth, Texas. Under him, the 2022-2023 season was the most suc-
cessful in TCU’s 150-year history. They were the only school to
make it to the College Football Playoff national title game, College
World Series, and the NCAA basketball tournament in the same
academic year.
While these are the most high-profile sports, TCU also saw suc-
cess in a number of other sports with men’s tennis, equestrian,
rifle, and beach volleyball, all ranked number one in the nation
over the course of the year.
Prior to being appointed as director of intercollegiate athletics at
TCU, Mr. Donati served as the Horned Frogs deputy athletic direc-
tor. He attended the University of Puget Sound, earning his bach-
elor of arts in politics and government, then attended Whittier Law
School where he earned his jurisprudence in sports and entertain-
ment.
Mr. Donati, thank you for being with us today, and we look for-
ward to hearing from you.
Our next witness here with us today is Mr. Gene Smith from a
school called ‘‘the’’ school. I don’t understand that. But, anyway,
Mr. Smith is the senior vice president and athletic director at the
The Ohio State University. Mr. Smith is only the eighth athletic
director in Ohio State history and has had the third largest tenure,
having served in the position since 2005 and being promoted to
senior vice president and Wolfe Foundation athletic director in May
of 2016. Prior to his time at Ohio State, he served as athletic direc-
tor at Arizona State University, Iowa State University, and East-
ern Michigan University.
6
Mr. Smith also serves in the NCAA NIL Working Group and is
on the board of directors of the National Football Foundation,
among others.
Mr. Smith was a college athlete himself and attended the Uni-
versity of Notre Dame, where he received his bachelor’s degree in
business administration.
Mr. Smith, thank you for joining us today, and we look forward
to the conversation ahead.
Mr. SMITH. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Our next witness here with us today is
Mr. Gino Torretta. Mr. Torretta is a Heisman Trophy winner and
a two-time national champion, as well as a Member of the College
Football Hall of Fame. Mr. Torretta attended the University of
Miami where he played for the Miami Hurricanes football team,
winning the national championship in 1989 as well as in 1991. He
then went on to win the Heisman Trophy in 1992. After his time
attending the University of Miami, Mr. Torretta played for several
teams in the NFL, including the Minnesota Vikings, Detroit Lions,
and Seattle Seahawks.
Following his time playing for the NFL, he joined Wachovia Se-
curities as a senior financial advisor and is Chairman and CEO of
Touchdown Radio. Mr. Torretta graduated from the University of
Miami with a degree in business management.
Mr. Torretta, thank you for joining us today, and we look forward
to discussing this important topic with you.
Mr. TORRETTA. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize the Ranking Member
from New York, Ms. Velázquez, to briefly introduce our last wit-
ness appearing before us today.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to welcome Maddie Salamone, the Vice President of
the College Football Players Association. Ms. Salamone is an attor-
ney and college athlete advocate. In her college years, she played
lacrosse for Duke University and entered her first year ranked
number six nationwide by Inside Lacrosse. However, her college ca-
reer also involved many battles with injuries, resulting in three
knee surgeries. These challenges gave her a deep understanding of
the physical, mental, and emotional issues that many college ath-
letes endure.
Ms. Salamone also Chaired the NCAA’s Division I Student-Ath-
lete Advisory Committee, serving on rules, legislative, and leader-
ship groups. Her tireless advocacy led to the granting of voting
power for college athletes at all levels of NCAA’s governance. As an
attorney she has represented college athletes on matters related to
athletic eligibility, scholarship appeals, abuse, restricted transfer,
and mental health issues.
Ms. Salamone holds a bachelor’s degree in public policy from
Duke University and a juris doctorate from the University of North
Carolina School of Law.
Welcome, and thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And we appreciate all of you
being here today.
So before recognizing the witnesses, I would like to remind them
that their oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. If you
7
see the light turn red in front of you, it means your 5 minutes have
concluded and you should wrap up your time.
With that, I now recognize Mr. Donati for his 5-minute opening
remarks.
STATEMENTS OF MR. JEREMIAH DONATI, DIRECTOR OF
INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS, TEXAS CHRISTIAN UNIVER-
SITY (TCU); MR. EUGENE (GENE) SMITH, SENIOR VICE PRESI-
DENT & WOLFE FOUNDATION ENDOWED ATHLETIC, DIREC-
TOR, THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY (OSU); MR. GINO
TORRETTA, HEISMAN TROPHY WINNER AND TWO-TIME NA-
TIONAL CHAMPION, MEMBER OF THE COLLEGE FOOTBALL
HALL OF FAME; AND MS. MADELINE (MADDIE) SALAMONE,
VICE PRESIDENT (ATTORNEY & ATHLETE ADVOCATE), COL-
LEGE FOOTBALL PLAYERS ASSOCIATION (CFPBA)
STATEMENT OF JEREMIAH DONATI
Mr. DONATI. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velázquez,
and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank you for allow-
ing me to be here today.
As someone who is passionate about college athletics and the op-
portunity to positively impact young people’s lives, it is an honor
to testify before you at a time of great change in our industry. Not
since the creation and implementation of Title IX over 50 years ago
have we seen such changes of this magnitude. It is my hope that
any experiences I can draw from may be helpful as we collectively
seek solutions to very complicated issues in front of us, none larger
than NIL.
I have over 15 years of experience working in college athletics,
and I have been the athletics director at TCU for the past 6 years.
I also have experience working in the sports agency business rep-
resenting the interests of professional athletes and coaches. I be-
lieve these experiences have given me a unique perspective on
many aspects of our business and especially NIL.
The concept of allowing student-athletes to receive compensation
for the use of their NIL makes great sense. After all, the vast ma-
jority of college student-athletes will not play professionally, and it
only seems fair that they should be able to monetize their skills
and talents.
In 2021, when NIL became permissible, student-athletes could
now enjoy the same rights as ordinary college students. Overnight
they became entrepreneurs, and almost immediately we began see-
ing them signing endorsement deals with companies and products.
Other NIL activities soon followed: autograph signings, personal
appearances, and community services work, for example. In many
cases it became apparent that they were using this additional in-
come to better support their families. This is a reality for some
many of our young people that I believe is often overlooked and is
another reason why NIL has been very beneficial.
But simply putting money in the pockets of student-athletes is
not the only value that NIL brings to their lives. There is a tre-
mendous opportunity to educate and give student-athletes a set of
tools more valuable than any NIL payment. Following NIL’s enact-
ment, many athletics departments, including TCU’s, unveiled edu-
8
cational programs focused on financial literacy, contract negotia-
tion, business formation, entrepreneurship, brand management, so-
cial media promotion, and taxation.
Like others, we saw this opportunity to further our mission and
formed a partnership between the athletics department and the
business school to educate student-athletes on these key aspects of
entrepreneurship. To illustrate our commitment we created an en-
dowed professorship in support of NIL education, created courses
for credit, office hours of business school faculty, and also dedicated
a football suite in the stadium and converted its day-to-day use for
the teaching and instruction of NIL entrepreneurship.
At TCU we currently support 22 sports and over 550 student-
athletes. To date, over half of our student-athletes have reported
NIL deals. While football, basketball, and baseball have dominated
national NIL headlines, I have been encouraged to see many other
sports at TCU, especially women’s sports, participating at a much
higher level than anticipated.
Despite the positives that have come from NIL, it has also come
with a significant number of challenges. From the outset, the lack
of uniformity has caused confusion amongst NCAA Members, re-
spected donor bases, and student-athletes. NIL was implemented
without the proper guardrails or mechanisms necessary to effec-
tively manage these changes and, unfortunately, none of these
shortcomings have improved, and the legal challenges facing the
NCAA have made it difficult to find sustainable solutions.
Bad actors or those who break the rules and exploit student-ath-
letes for their own personal gain, pay-to-play from third parties, re-
cruiting and transfer portal inducements are among the unin-
tended consequences that have largely gone unchecked to date. We
now find ourselves in a wild wild west environment across college
athletics with little accountability.
Sadly, there are countless stories of student-athletes and their
families being exploited, deceived, and harmed for others’ personal
gain in these NIL pursuits. And while NIL collectives have pro-
vided universities with an efficient tool to fulfill NIL opportunities
from donor support, the governance and oversight of these organi-
zations has been inconsistent and in desperate need of uniform
oversight.
The good news is that there are solutions available. Recently, we
have seen progress from federal legislative bills and discussion
drafts. I know I am not alone in my belief that Congress does have
the power to bring uniformity, transparency, and fairness to the
administration of NIL through enacting legislation that should in-
clude, one, agent oversight; two, standardized contracts; three, a
national clearinghouse or registry; four, elimination of inducements
and pay for play; and, five, rule enforcement mechanisms.
I speak for my athletic director colleagues when I say that the
current model is not sustainable and that we all desire to see stu-
dent-athletes competing under the same fundamental and enforce-
able rules. I strongly encourage this Committee and other Members
of the House to support legislation that will help provide sustain-
able solutions to NIL while preserving the opportunity for student-
athletes to financially benefit from their skills and talents during
their college careers.
9
Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today, and I
am happy to answer any questions you have.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
And I now recognize Mr. Smith for his 5-minute opening re-
marks.
STATEMENT OF EUGENE (GENE) SMITH
Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking Mem-
ber——
Mr. BEAN. Your microphone, Mr. Smith.
Mr. SMITH. Sorry.
Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking Member Velázquez
and distinguished Members of the Committee. Thank you for the
opportunity to testify today. I will try not to be repetitious. I re-
duced my opening comments significantly as a result of what has
been said.
At Ohio State we have 36 athletic programs and more than a
thousand student-athletes. We are committed to providing our ath-
letes what they need to grow academically, athletically, and so-
cially, and graduate with skills that transfer to success in life. We
are focused on recruitment to career, which is evidenced by our
over 95 percent of our graduating seniors moving right into jobs,
graduate school, or professional sports.
I significantly believe that NIL is beneficial to the student-ath-
lete experience and has been more successful than portrayed. It
was intended to allow student-athletes to enjoy the same privileges
that other students on our campuses have, including the ability to
monetize their personal brand or business acumen.
NIL is a great educational tool, as my colleagues share. Student-
athletes learn about a host of important entrepreneurial skills,
such as fiscal responsibility, income tax management, personal
brand development, and marketing. I believe the lessons learned
from NIL further strengthen the holistic development of a young
person and fills his or her toolbox for success in life.
Our mission at Ohio State related to NIL is to inspire entrepre-
neurial and innovative thinking and ensure that student-athletes
have the resources to create, leverage, and promote their personal
brand. Over 420 of our student-athletes have at least one NIL deal.
They have made over 2,000 NIL deals among all sports, with foot-
ball and women’s volleyball attracting the most.
Not all student-athletes are on full scholarships. In fact, most
Olympic sport student-athletes are on partial scholarships. Histori-
cally, many partial scholarship student-athletes graduated with
debt. NIL opportunities offer the opportunity to possibly mitigate
that debt.
NIL implementation hasn’t been without challenges, as has al-
ready been stated, so I won’t go through my speeches on that.
Since institutions cannot manage NIL on behalf of student-ath-
letes, collectives have formed, largely 501(c)(3)s, with the intent of
soliciting funds from passionate fans in developing NIL deals. As
a result of an IRS interpretation, many collectives are now shifting
to limited liability corporations. In many markets, the efforts of the
LLCs are in direct competition with athletic departments. While
these efforts for sure are beneficial to student-athletes in the short
10
run, athletic directors are now finding themselves making funding
decisions based upon declining income streams which could in turn
hurt our student-athletes in the future.
As has been stated, many States have created legislation to sup-
port their institutions’ NIL activities, but there is no uniformity to
these State laws. As you all know, we do not have a federal law
regarding NIL.
NIL offers tremendous opportunities for student-athletes to learn
and grow their resources; however, protections need to be put in
place. Like my colleague, I believe Congress needs to enact NIL
legislation as soon as possible.
An effective bill, in my opinion, should include: A national NIL
standard. NIL agent registration. You commented on the bad ac-
tors. There are great agents out there, but there are some unscru-
pulous characters who are taking advantage of young people.
Standard NIL contracts. Prohibition of inducements. The dif-
ference between athletics at our level and the pro sports is we re-
cruit. We do not draft. Draft makes it impossible for the bad actors
to enter that space like they do in our space.
An NIL public registry to bring transparency to the marketplace.
No other industry doesn’t have a marketplace where you can actu-
ally evaluate the marketplace and make good decisions as you
move forward in your business.
And strong enforcement measures.
Thank you so much for the opportunity to testify. I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And now I recognize Mr. Torretta for his 5-minute opening re-
marks.
STATEMENT OF GINO TORRETTA
Mr. TORRETTA. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member
Velázquez, and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank
you for the opportunity to testify today.
As one who has been engaged in college athletics since 1988, as
an athlete and broadcaster, I am honored to provide you my in-
sights on NIL and the impact on entrepreneurial athletes.
Collegiate athletics afforded me unique opportunities to help me
be where I am today. I grew up in a small town, Pinole, California.
At 17 years old I decided to leave California and go to the Univer-
sity of Miami for a chance to compete for a national championship
and earn a degree.
I spent 5 years there, was a Member of two national champion-
ship teams. After my senior season in 1992, won the Maxwell Tro-
phy, the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award, the Walter Camp
Player of the Year, Toyota Leadership Award, NCAA Top 6 Award,
and every award that I could win or you could win as a offensive
player in collegiate football. Spent 5 years in the National Football
League.
But during my time as a Miami Hurricane, the NCAA had rules
in place regarding transfers, and there was no ability to monetize
name, image, and likeness. With the passage of NIL and the cre-
ation of the transfer portal, athletes are able to work, monetize
their success in their sports, essentially allowing all athletes to cre-
11
ate their own small business and capitalize on their time com-
peting in college.
This NIL window provides athletes with a head start in earning
and saving before graduation and entrance into their chosen profes-
sional field, which for the majority will not be in professional
sports. These experiences will be beneficial in their lives going for-
ward.
In college athletics, one can always find examples of a player
and/or institution not following the rules. When these rules have
been broken in the past, it led to an athlete losing eligibility,
schools being placed on probation, fines, bowl bans, et cetera. With
the current NIL system, there is no standard set of rules. The
NCAA lacks the enforcement teeth, and they only place guidelines
on schools, and they are following State laws that are essentially
different.
Coaches in any sport do not devise game plans within a different
set of rules. They create game plans to follow the rules, one set of
rules that are set for all of them to follow. And because the NCAA
has failed to issue one set of rules for these schools to follow, I be-
lieve it is important that Congress needs to step forward and give
a level of the playing field across the board with all universities
amongst all sports, male, female, football, basketball, baseball,
gymnastics, whatever sport it is.
And I think that is really why we are here today, to hear the tes-
timony. And I, again, thank you for the opportunity, and I look for-
ward to answering any questions you may have.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And I now recognize Ms. Salamone for her 5-minute opening re-
marks.
STATEMENT OF MADELINE (MADDIE) SALAMONE
Ms. SALAMONE. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member
Velázquez, and Members of the House committee, thank you for
having me here today.
Our other vice president, Justin Falcinelli, is also in the audience
today, and I just want to recognize him as well.
My time as Chair of the Division I Student-Athlete Advisory
Committee taught me that the only time there is real change was
when the NCAA felt public pressure after media coverage revealed
the truth of what was going on in college sports. This is the reason
I continue to advocate for athletes, and I have become a leading
voice for NCAA reform and college athletes’ rights over the years,
speaking out publicly, consulting with leaders and lawmakers
across the country, and providing insight into the ongoing major
issues within college sports.
The Committee convened this hearing to discuss name, image,
and likeness in college sports and its impact on entrepreneurial
athletes. My understanding is that Members of this Committee are
concerned about a number of news reports and the overall impact
of NIL. Though I will also address the main topic at hand, the
truth of the matter is that the continual discussion about NIL,
antitrust exemptions, and even employment status of athletes are
a distraction created by the NCAA and member schools and exacer-
bated by the media’s constant coverage of the topic.
12
The most important issues that must be addressed in college
sports are the abuse, mistreatment, and lack of attention to player
health and safety at the hands of coaches and support staff. Even
in the wake of recent allegations of mistreatment that demonstrate
a cultural issue within college sports, it is incredible how quickly
the focus has shifted back to NIL being the most important issue
at hand. No matter where we land with NIL, we will have failed
college athletes if we continue to ignore the much more important
issues of player health and well-being, which impacts players’ lives
both during and after college.
The primary remedy for athlete mistreatment is to have external
independent oversight by individuals who are not employed by the
schools. Schools have repeatedly demonstrated that they can can-
not be trusted to police themselves. There are countless stories of
individuals who have reported problematic coaches and staff and
are subsequently silenced, fired, or otherwise ignored and pushed
out. It usually follows that the more powerful and successful a
coach, the more people’s jobs are at risk if they speak out and the
harder schools will work to silence anyone making noise.
For every scandal that has been made public, there are countless
others that remain an open secret on campuses across the country.
Players need accessible help they can trust with roles clearly de-
fined. There must be independent oversight of practices, team
meetings, and medical care. Players need access to individuals from
whom they can seek advice and help without the fear that that in-
dividual break confidences and cause more harm. They need some-
one whose obligation is to them and not to the school, someone who
can act as a mediator whenever necessary and advise players on
the best course of action. And they must have independent author-
ity to take appropriate action with the information once they have
it, including the ability to investigate reported issues and bring
issues to the attention of the administration without risking their
jobs. Those individuals need to be trained to handle confidential in-
formation and exercise discretion and tact in addressing matters.
I hope we get a chance to discuss these very important and more
pressing matters of college athlete health, safety, and welfare dur-
ing this hearing.
What is interesting to me about the reason we are all here today
is that we are discussing NIL as if it is a new, complicated subject,
but it really isn’t. Nothing about this area of the law is new, only
how it applies to college athletes. It is really just the right of pub-
licity, which is another way of describing a person’s right to control
the commercial use of their identity and image.
For years, the names and likenesses of professional athletes,
models, actors, and artists have been used to promote and endorse
products and services or to raise awareness about an issue. Past
NCAA rules were simply preventing athletes from exercising the
same rights already available to everyone else.
Now something we don’t talk about is the additional benefits NIL
actually gives beyond the financial. In addition to the nearly limit-
less entrepreneurial opportunities that athletes have and can now
pursue, NIL has tremendous educational value as well. Athletes
are developing skills that are directly applicable to the modern job
market, including content creation, direct sales, promotions, con-
13
tract negotiation, brand development and management, and social
media.
Athletes more than ever are encouraged to think about what
they want to do after their playing days are over and to start set-
ting themselves up for the future they want while they are in
school. Previous generations of athletes had nowhere near the same
opportunities to gain real-world experience or prepare for their fu-
tures as current athletes.
I outlined in my written testimony areas where the NIL space
could be improved for college athletes, particularly around edu-
cation, assistance with review of contracts, and agent regulation.
But I believe these are relatively minor concerns within the overall
landscape of college sports reform.
As I have discussed, it is time to finally focus on the big picture
in college sports. We cannot allow any more athletes to be nega-
tively impacted by issues that are so preventable with the right
oversight. Schools must be required to direct spending towards re-
sources that will address the biggest issues these students are
faced with, which is their mental and physical health. These issues
have the potential to negatively impact the rest of their lives, way
beyond college.
With the influx of revenue from the college football playoff ex-
pansion, in addition to revenue pouring in from massive media
rates deals——
Chairman WILLIAMS. The witness’ time is up.
Ms. SALAMONE. Apologies. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
My first question will be to Mr. Donati. There has been a lot of
concern about the patchwork regulatory framework that student-
athletes need to navigate in order to play by the new rules. In ad-
dition to the NCAA policy, students have to abide by State law as
well as rules set by their school and their conference.
Some have asked for a federal solution to this problem in order
to simplify compliance. Now, while I agree that a uniform standard
would provide certainty so that everyone is playing by the same
rules, finding that appropriate solution is a difficult task. So my
question is: What do you think the role of the federal government
should have in the NIL space, if any?
Mr. DONATI. Well, I would say it would be to work with the
NCAA. I don’t think any of my colleagues or I expect the federal
government to supplant the NCAA, but the nature of NIL, the com-
plexities that come with it—and you mentioned the patchwork
State laws have made this unmanageable. And so my colleague,
Mr. Smith, and I believe the federal government can be involved
in a number of ways.
You mentioned the agent issue. I think that is an easy one to ad-
dress. I think there is a need for a national clearinghouse or trans-
parency into these deals that I think the federal government can
be involved with. And then the big question regarding the NCAA
is how you enforce these rules, and I think that the federal govern-
ment could play a major part there as well.
Chairman WILLIAMS. With the time remaining, Mr. Smith,
would you like to add to that?
14
Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I would agree with my colleague that those
are the areas where the federal government can help the most. But
the single most important element, in my view, is the inconsistency
across the country relative to State laws.
The NCAA, even if we had the ability or the model to come up
and address the other issues, I think it would be difficult for the
NCAA to come up with a strategy to create a level playing field
across this country when it comes to the multiple State laws. I be-
lieve it is 18 States that have State laws that are different today.
So I think we certainly need help in that particular area.
And then my second one is around agents. I will just refer di-
rectly to what Ms. Salamone said. Student-athletes are being taken
advantage of, and that is saddening. It is sickening to read some
of the reports where we allow all the unscrupulous characters to
enter the space—and you refer to as bad actors—and ultimately
take advantage of families and young people, particularly people
from disadvantaged environments. So that area is one that I think
the federal government can help us in, big time.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Thank you.
The first year of the NIL era saw nearly a billion dollars’ worth
of deals, and there is nothing to hint that this number is slowing
down anytime soon. The explosion of money and lack of uniform
guardrails has led to what some describe as America’s new wild
west, and we have heard that today. Unfortunately, there are some
bad actors that are exploiting the system at the expense of young
athletes.
We have heard horror stories, such as contracts giving a com-
pany the right to use an athlete’s name and image in perpetuity
for their brand. And one student-athlete moved from Georgia to
California on an NIL promise, only to be suspended by California
governing bodies and suspended from playing for a year. Further,
a recent lawsuit filed by a former University of Florida athlete al-
leged that a predatory loan was disguised as an NIL deal that in-
cluded turning over 15 percent of any future professional football
earnings.
So, Mr. Smith, my question to you: What can be done to improve
NIL’s guardrails to ensure that student-athletes are not being
taken advantage of by these bad actors?
Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I think, again, that is where law needs to
come into play. And those people who take advantage of—in par-
ticular the one you mentioned, the Florida student-athlete, who
now is looking at a lawsuit where he has signed to pay 16 percent
of his future earnings to a collective, that requires national law.
That is not something that the NCAA can deal with.
So, in my view, you know, we need governmental help in that
particular space.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Thank you.
Real quick, Mr. Torretta, you have got one of the most impres-
sive resumes any college football player could dream of. Can you
walk through real quick through your time playing football at
Miami, from your first start to winning the Heisman Trophy, and
describe to us how your story might have played out differently in
NIL?
15
Mr. TORRETTA. Well, in 1989, we had an injury, so I started
four games in the middle of our national championship year, broke
the school record for passing in my second start, which is still con-
sidered QBU, I think. And at the end of the four games, I went
back to the bench and knew I was going to sit the bench the fol-
lowing season.
So in today’s day and age of a transfer portal, I would have prob-
ably looked elsewhere, because back when I was in school, you had
to sit out a full season. There would have probably been induce-
ments of NIL money of come to whatever school, pick your school.
And my story probably doesn’t turn out like it has today.
So for the good of NIL and transfer portal, there is probably also
the bad. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
I think in all of these questions, it is going to take an adult to
step forward and to protect—I will call these kids, because from 18
to 22, you are still a kid in my eyes. And, you know, whether that
is Congress or the NCAA, an adult needs to step forward, put up
some guardrails, and give some enforcement teeth to actual rules.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Thank you very much.
I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of questions.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Salamone, as you wrote in your testimony, many booster col-
lectives tend to steer NIL deals primarily to male college athletes.
Could you confirm for us whether this distribution is proportionate
among men and women?
Ms. SALAMONE. I would say that primarily the collectives are
steering money towards football athletes over every other sport,
and so that is disproportionately male as compared to female.
You know, I had someone explain a collective to me in, I thought,
a very good way, and it was described as a fan club and that these
collectives basically operate at the behest of the coaches to direct
funds to specific players that they sort of identify.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. This is happening because booster collectives
aren’t regulated by Title IX, correct?
Ms. SALAMONE. In part. I think that the collectives came about
as a result of schools not wanting to deal with the funds because
they were concerned about having to comply with Title IX, and this
is sort of a workaround. I think the relationship is so closely knit
at this point that Title IX should apply to collective funds.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Would you agree that booster collectives who
coordinate closely with their school ought to be considered exten-
sions of their school outright and, therefore, subject to Title IX reg-
ulations?
Ms. SALAMONE. Yes. Collectives at this point effectively are ex-
tensions of the schools.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Ms. Salamone, some stakeholders worry that
the predominance of social media influencing deals in the NIL mar-
ket for women college athletes is incentivizing them to post sugges-
tive content.
Ms. SALAMONE. So I think that this is maybe a greater societal
issue. I know that there are certainly athletes—it is an issue with
female athletes feeling pressure to post certain types of posts that
might gain more attention. I think that what that comes down to
is a greater need for messaging around that and conversations with
16
female athletes in particular about, I think, staying authentic,
doing things that make you feel comfortable, not feeling pressured
by an agent or anybody else.
You know, there are a lot of social media branding specialists
that are encouraging athletes to do all sorts of things on social
media, and I think it is becoming a pressure, and I think that
schools should step in and kind of remind athletes that they should
not feel added pressure to do those things.
But, again, I think females in society on social media feel the
same pressure. I don’t think that it is unique to female athletes at
this point. So that is maybe a greater debate about whether we feel
comfortable with, I think, the pressures on women in general to
post certain posts on social media if that is not what they are com-
fortable with.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Race and sexual orientation play immense
roles in this dynamic, as I see it. Is there a correlation between
successful female NIL earners and more traditional race and sex-
ual orientation identification?
Ms. SALAMONE. So I think what you are asking is are they
feeling pressured because they see the success of other people mak-
ing money on social media. Certainly. And, again, I will go back to
I think that is a greater pressure that content creators in general
feel when they see things that are working for other content cre-
ators. And I think it goes back to athletes needing to be reminded
to stay true to themselves, not to feel the pressure, to focus on
their sports. But they are going to feel it. They are part of—this
new generation, they grew up in the social media world. It is a re-
ality. They have a different mindset than we do when it comes to
that. And so that has to be taken into consideration. But certainly
I think that when anybody sees what someone else is doing as
being successful, they are inclined to want to copy that.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you.
You placed great emphasis in your testimony upon the need to
prioritize health, safety, and well-being for college athletes and any
congressional action in this space. Can you explain why this is crit-
ical to the success of the NIL businesses?
Ms. SALAMONE. Yes. If an athlete is being abused, if they are
mentally suffering, just like any normal person in business, if they
are not taking care of themselves and living a well-balanced life
being taken care of, their businesses are going to suffer. They go
hand-in-hand.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Based on your experience, can you tell me and
the Committee if colleges are putting resources into helping ath-
letes?
Ms. SALAMONE. I think that many schools are putting re-
sources. I think there is a tremendous gap in the education, and
I will touch on my fellow panelists here. I think one of the ways
that we can address some of the contractual issues and the agent
issues is to educate about things to look for in contracts, what kind
of practices to watch out for and how to guard against them.
Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative Meuser from the great State of
Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
17
Mr. MEUSER. I thank the Chairman very much.
Gentlemen, lady, thanks for being with us. It is always enjoy-
able, it seems, to talk about football, particularly in the middle of
the day or late morning on a Wednesday. But these are some pret-
ty important subjects we have got here, and the idea of us having
congressional legislation seems to be agreed upon by all.
So when I conclude, I am going to ask you, who has got the plan?
You clearly are all the specialists in this and have great experi-
ences and tenure, but, you know, think about that a little bit. Who
else do we go to for the gaining and developing, creating the right
plan moving forward?
Because the thing is that I think no one disagrees that a stu-
dent-athlete—I have always felt, I mean, from the days of Tim
Tebow, for instance, right, he was great in college and made it to
the NFL, but the idea that he couldn’t get a Nike contract, what-
ever it might be, never made any sense to me.
My son actually plays at Bucknell, 1A. They have a good time.
But the idea that they couldn’t use their name for, say, a local
business or car dealership perhaps to help promote never really
made any sense, kind of having a side job.
But this has gone further, right? Now we have alumni basically
coming together, my understanding, putting millions of dollars into
a pot or some schools maybe tens of thousands, where one is tens
of millions, and doling that out to gain the best quarterbacks, the
best team possible with contractors that really have no regulations
or jurisdiction, where some States are putting themselves in the
middle of it.
So the first question is: Do you think we have got a problem just
with that amount of money going for this purpose, yet the revenues
from the football cannot be used—you know, for the football pro-
grams cannot be used. Are we—with that funding from generous
donors or donors who just want to win football games perhaps, but
either way, would it be going elsewhere? That is question number
one. I mean, is it being pulled from other funding that would build
a library perhaps, Mr. Donati?
Mr. DONATI. Absolutely, to answer your question directly. The
money that is being put into NIL is—there are donors making a
decision of how they are going to best support the university,
whether it is through supporting NIL with the student-athletes or
funding a building or a scholarship. And so we are seeing that in
real time, and we are having to—as athletic directors having to
make adjustments of our budget accordingly.
Mr. MEUSER. Okay. Okay. So that is a big yes.
Mr. Smith—sorry, my glasses aren’t working so great here—do
you agree with that?
Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think one thing we
have to recognize is that there are over 350 Division I schools in
this country, and the diversity in how they are financed is signifi-
cantly different. Many of the schools that we are blessed to have
in our country who educate our children, the athletic departments
are funded through the university general funds or student fees.
They are not like Ohio State. You know, we generate $250 million
externally through our revenue generation plan which covers our
18
expenses, and we contribute dollars back to the institution. So we
are a different beast.
Part of the realities is that we are listening to comments about
places that don’t do it right. We educate our student-athletes. We
do not have the same issues relative to fundraising that my col-
league mentioned, because our donors are going to support us at
the end of the day.
So the diversity in our business is significant. And so I think we
need to recognize that and pay attention to that because, in my
view, the plan is represented in some of the bills that have been
offered, support—well, Mike Carey’s bill significantly, but there are
other plans that the NCAA is working on that I think, you know,
need to be put in place to allow more institutional involvement. It
gets to the Title IX question.
Mr. MEUSER. Yeah.
Mr. SMITH. At the end of the day, I am going to make sure we
meet Title IX. That is not some outside entity that is going to make
that determination.
So it is a long speech to your question.
Mr. MEUSER. No, I appreciate it.
Mr. SMITH. But that is the reality.
Mr. MEUSER. I will just go to Mr. Torretta real fast, same ques-
tion.
Mr. TORRETTA. I would just say under the current system the
universities are getting free labor still, because the additional cash
is coming from boosters to the players and the student-athletes. So
I think that is where—you know, is it a percentage of revenue to
the student-athletes? But under the current system, really, the stu-
dent-athlete doesn’t cost the university any more.
Mr. MEUSER. I am out of time. I would like to follow up and
ask you what problems are created from that, some unintended
consequences.
But I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative McGarvey from the great State
of Kentucky for 5 few minutes.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And being from Kentucky, we love our college sports, so this is
of particular interest to me. I am going to say, though, this is the
first time on our Committee I have seen an organization come for-
ward before us who doesn’t have its act together and is so inept
that they are actually asking the government to take over what is
going on and regulate this.
You know, I was the senate minority leader in the State of Ken-
tucky. I was the first person to introduce the name, image, and
likeness bill in Kentucky. I worked with our university to author
it. Passed it. Within 6 months it was basically obsolete. We had
good things in their, including registry of agents which you are
talking about. We had good things in their protecting the players.
I am very much about the players, their safety, their well-being.
We had a provision in there which I liked that I haven’t heard
anybody talk about today, which is if you sign the contract as a
student-athlete in college, it was void if you wanted it to be when
you went professional. Therefore, you know, we have got some 17-
19
, 18-year-old kids who are signing up for contracts when they go
to college. If they are one and done in basketball, they are not obli-
gated to that after they go. I think there is some good things we
can do.
But here’s the thing, right? The NCAA is the best institution to
handle this. The next best institution is us. The last institution are
your State legislatures, which I am a State legislator at heart. I
love what they do. But you saw an arms race and this patchwork
of laws which has led us to being hear today.
But here is my warning. Just like what we did in Kentucky,
when you needed a change, you have got to go back to the State
legislature. When you all are asking the United States Government
where it will literally take an act of Congress to change something
once we let it out loose in the wild, is the NCAA so inept right now
that this is something Congress must legislate?
Mr. TORRETTA. Somebody needs to step forward, and appar-
ently they are not stepping forward to create some—like, I mean,
essentially what we all want is a level playing field amongst TCU,
Ohio State, Miami, Kentucky, Texas where the athletes and ath-
letic departments are playing by the same set of rules. I mean,
like—you know, you line up on Saturday. You know there is going
to be 11 on defense. Is Kentucky going to play with 12 without the
same set of rules as Florida?
So that is what I think everybody wants to protect, you know,
the games that they all play. And it is apparent the NCAA isn’t
going to step forward, so I think that is why we are here to say,
maybe Congress can, you know, put the impetus on the NCAA to
say here are things that need to happen; do it.
Mr. MCGARVEY. And I appreciate that. And I will take some of
the silence as an answer. And so I think we do need to step for-
ward, and we have got to make sure that we are protecting players,
that we are creating that level playing field, that it is a national
standard. We are missing the national standard right now. That is
something we need.
Ms. Salamone, I have a question for you specifically. How can we
use a name, image, and likeness? If we are going to do this, let’s
do it. Let’s do it right. Let’s do it for the players. Let’s not try to
come back here and fix it. How do we improve player health and
safety standards including in the years after their careers are over?
Ms. SALAMONE. I mean, I think that we start with independent
oversight, as I mentioned in my testimony previously, and you need
organization of players. They need to be able to collectively bar-
gain. That is what we are trying to do at the College Football Play-
ers Association. I think it would take care of a lot of the issues that
the NCAA is concerned with when it comes to issues of antitrust,
because if players are given a seat at the table and are able to talk
about the issues that are most important, nobody has to guess. And
legislators don’t have to come in and create legislation that really
doesn’t quite hit on the issues that actually matter to players. The
only way to know that is to talk to the players themselves. So that
is the answer.
Mr. MCGARVEY. I appreciate that. And, you know, I wish we
had a ton more time because this is an important topic. There are
a lot of things we have to deal with, including the fact that the
20
transfer portal has basically become an extortion market as we see
it today. How do we make this so it is right?
Regards to student-athlete well-being, though—and one thing
about athlete well-being, I see this conference realignment stuff
going on right now. If you have got an athlete at the University
of Louisville who is flying now to Cal or to Stanford, how does that
impact player well-being? What does that do for player athletes?
Ms. SALAMONE. I mean, I will comment that I didn’t go to
Stanford specifically. I wouldn’t go on a recruiting visit because for
lacrosse it meant traveling so much to play anybody good at the
time that I was in college. It has a tremendous—it adds—it means
for most of the sports that don’t have chartered flights, flights in
the middle of the night. It is exhausting. It is going across time
zones. Athletes can’t get any work done. They are barely in class.
You know, it doesn’t make any sense. And the fan bases are then
all over the place. It is actually fun to be able to go kind of local
to play and have rivals that are nearby.
So, I mean, it makes absolutely no sense to have coast-to-coast
conferences.
Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you.
Unfortunately, I am out of time because I have got a lot more
questions, as you guys can probably tell. I want to get this—I think
we do have to step in. I think we do have to step up, and I want
to make sure we get it right because you literally will have to get
Congress to act again if you want to change something.
Thank you, guys.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative Van Duyne from the great State
of Texas for 5 minutes.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to our witnesses for coming today.
I just have a few questions. I did not go to a competitive athletic
school. Mr. Meuser and I went to the same undergraduate school.
We are not known for our football team.
Fair statement?
Mr. MEUSER. Fair. Very fair.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Can I just ask, though, how difficult will it
be for smaller schools to be able to stay competitive when the larg-
er schools can afford to pay athletes more?
And I am not quite sure which of you would like to answer that
question. But how? How are some of the smaller schools going to
be able to compete with a school that can raise $250 million like
that and know that they are going to be able to do that?
Mr. DONATI. Well, I will take that.
Well, that is not new, right? I mean, The Ohio State University—
did I say that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. DONATI.—has always been one of the largest State institu-
tions in our country, and so schools have found other ways to com-
pete. I think what is different here is the amount of money that
is going unchecked into the NIL world and to the NIL business.
So it is a reality. It is a—but there are ways—there is a lot of
talent in our country. So I don’t—while there are some competitive
21
inequities with the money, you know, I am more focused on the
rules by which we are playing by and finding one set of rules. Be-
cause we had talked about the difference, the patchwork in State
laws; those are providing the competitive inequities, in my opinion.
So the money is—that is not new. There is going to be large
schools with larger donor bases and alumni bases——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Yeah.
Mr. DONATI.—and smaller schools——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr.——
Mr. DONATI. Sorry.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay. So you are just saying it is not new.
Mr. DONATI. Yeah.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr. Smith, do you have—nothing?
Mr. SMITH. No, I agree. It is——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay.
Mr. SMITH.—not new. It is just a——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. It is just another tool?
Mr. SMITH. Yeah, it is just another tool.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay.
Mr. SMITH. One of the challenges, using your words—if the in-
stitutions had this model and they were paying the money, then
the challenges will be at those smaller schools, how do they afford
to do it, even at their level, regardless of where we are.
You know, if you are looking at the Mid-American Conference—
and I know my colleagues are here from the Mid-American Con-
ference. If you look at the Mid-American Conference, those presi-
dents will have to make a decision on whether or not they continue
to fund athletics at the level that they have been funding them.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Uh-huh.
Mr. SMITH. Because the majority of their money for those ath-
letic programs comes from their general funds. Students on the
campuses will have to decide whether they want to continue pay
students’ fees to support athletics, because, now you are paying the
athletes that I go to school with?
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Yeah.
Mr. SMITH. So there are a lot of dynamics at that level that will
come into play if we end up there.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Speaking of dynamics, how difficult do you
think it will be to coach students that are actually making more
money than the coaches?
Nobody wants to answer that one.
Mr. TORRETTA. I don’t think that is going to happen at Ohio
State or TCU. So. That is all I am saying. If I may answer your
question, ma’am, they can’t, those smaller schools.
But I would say this——
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Yeah?
Mr. TORRETTA.—You know, if a school like Harvard, with the
largest endowment in the world, wanted to really invest in their
football program, they could probably spend as much as Gene.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Harvard beats my alma mater, by the way.
Mr. DONATI. I would just say that I think our coaches recognize
this is a different environment.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay.
Mr. DONATI. So it hasn’t been a challenge we have seen yet.
22
Ms. SALAMONE. I would also add that I think that there needs
to be mindset shift and the coaches need to get over their own egos
when it comes to that and be encouraging their athletes to set
themselves up for a future of success. That should be the focus.
It is an educational institution that they are coaching at. If they
want to coach in the pros, then they should do that. But that is
not the role of a coaching college.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. So you don’t think, though, that students
would get more full of themselves if they were making a lot more
money and being very difficult to coach? And still being students,
as opposed to professional athletes——
Ms. SALAMONE. They might very well be. But I think that if
a coach demands the respect of their team, it doesn’t matter how
much the team is making. And I think that is the deeper issue, is
that these coaches haven’t figured that out.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay.
Quick question. Mr. Smith, can you explain what collectives are
and the impact that they have had on college sports? And do you
agree with Ms. Salamone’s description as ‘‘fan clubs’’?
Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I don’t disagree with her description.
You know, they emerged as 501(c)(3)s, and now they are switch-
ing to—a great deal—to LLCs. And they are creating activities and
events and podcasts and things of that nature, with memberships
and things of that nature.
And then—but some of them are legitimately helping student-
athletes connect with local businesses and are actually doing real
good NIL work. But they are largely fan clubs, yes.
Ms. VAN DUYNE. All right. Thank you.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Representative
Landsman from the great State of Ohio.
Mr. LANDSMAN. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you all for being here.
As Mr. Carey said before he had to leave, also from Ohio, the two
of us have a bipartisan bill, the student-athlete Level Playing Field
Act, which I believe is straightforward and, you know, would be a
win for this Congress.
It creates the kind of structure and transparency that we have
been talking about in this hearing. The three things that have
come up—the national oversight, the national clearinghouse; mak-
ing sure that folks who are part of these transactions, these agents,
are registered; and that the deals are disclosed, that kind of trans-
parency.
Question for all of you: Thoughts on the bill? My hope is that we
take this bill up as a Congress, that it gets passed, and it provides
meaningful structure and transparency. I am just curious what
your opinions are on those three aspects of the bill or the bill itself.
Mr. DONATI. Well, I will take it first.
Those were some of, I think, the critical aspects—and, first of all,
thank you for bringing this forward. But those are some of the crit-
ical aspects that we are all looking for.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
Mr. DONATI. So I commend you for bringing that forward. I
would definitely support that.
23
Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I concur. I thank you as well. I think the bill
has all the elements that are needed to help us in this space, so
I support it wholeheartedly. I think it is a good bill, and I believe
many of my colleagues would as well.
Mr. TORRETTA. I mean, I think transparency, registration is
what the world needs, but I also think you need some enforcement.
And who is going to do the enforcing? Is that going to be the
NCAA? Is that—you know. If they are not going to step forward,
then Congress has to step forward and say——
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
Mr. TORRETTA.—‘‘You have to enforce it.’’
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah. Agreed.
Ms. SALAMONE. Yeah, I would agree that I think some of the
issues with the bills that I have seen are the mechanisms by which
they accomplish the goals that they say. Because they are not bad
goals, necessarily; it is just the ‘‘how’’——
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
Ms. SALAMONE.—and whether it really is more appropriate for
that to happen through collective bargaining and figuring that out,
some of these issues.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Can you say more on that?
Ms. SALAMONE. So some of the issues that are being addressed
in many of these bills, it is like ‘‘everything and the kitchen sink.’’
And it is what I alluded to earlier, with legislators trying to put
in things that they think will be a good idea and in practice work
but may not actually address the deeper issues that athletes have
and what they really want fixed.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah. Yeah.
So, to that point, I mean, you talk about, rightfully so, the safety,
health, the well-being of athletes being critical, most important,
and supporting efforts to create structure, transparency in the NIL
space, but to also appreciate that there are these other issues.
This may be a dumb question. Should those be taken up sepa-
rately? I mean, you know, I—or, how related are they?
Ms. SALAMONE. I am generally of the opinion that they should
be separate. I think that these bills are trying to do too much——
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
Ms. SALAMONE.—and they are ineffective and will not pass. So
that is my opinion.
Mr. LANDSMAN. And, then, on the health and safety piece——
Ms. SALAMONE. Uh-huh.
Mr. LANDSMAN.—I mean, it is, I would think, something very
similar. I mean, it is national oversight.
Ms. SALAMONE. Yeah. And those are deeper issues that require
more attention. And I think that many of these bills have been
kind of rushed through, and I think more thought needs to be
given into the ‘‘how’’s of the bills.
Mr. LANDSMAN. So, just as we wrap up, with a minute to go,
this bill, I suspect, will get combined with others, but my hope is
that we get something passed. It has been several years where we
have been living in this Wild West world.
The most important aspects, I am assuming, are the national
oversight, the transparency, and then, ultimately, the right en-
forcement mechanism. Is that right? Wrong?
24
Mr. DONATI. Yeah, absolutely. And I would just add, the agent
oversight as well.
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah. Yeah.
Gene?
Mr. SMITH. Agree.
Mr. TORRETTA. Well, the other, inducements of a kid transfer-
ring from——
Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
Mr. TORRETTA.—one institution to the other, and even inducing
a 17-year-old to say where they are going to go to college, which
is part of the whole problem.
Ms. SALAMONE. I would add, to the inducements, though, I
think that the NCAA can actually step in. And I think they have
kind of abdicated the throne in an effort to get an antitrust exemp-
tion, rather than just enforcing the rules that they can enforce.
Mr. LANDSMAN. My time has expired, but I appreciate you all.
That is very helpful. Thank you all.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. I will now recognize Representative
Ellzey from the great State of Texas.
Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you all for being here today. This is an important hearing.
And, you know, I don’t know if the Chairman mentioned it or
not, because he is always very humble about this, but he is in the
TCU Hall of Fame. And I won’t tell you what year that he got in-
ducted.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Your time is up.
Mr. ELLZEY. Okay.
But, you know, he is great at telling stories about how it was,
being drafted by the Braves and being a college athlete and how
little money they made.
My grandfather, Drew Ellis, was in the class of 1937 with
Slingin’ Sammy Baugh and was in the draft, 21st in the draft, in
1937. Played for the Eagles for 2 years, 1938 and 1939. Was cut
short. Don’t know why. He probably got injured.
But, you know, as we talk about this subject, it is—how much
could it have helped Roger? How much could it have helped my
grandfather? How much can it help these young men and women
that are going through this today.
And I agree with the Chairman that we don’t want Congress
making the rules here, but it is clear that there needs to be some
definite readjustment of how we do this. Because so many of these
young men and women—I know at 18 I wouldn’t have had any
ability—or 20 or 22, 25—had any ability to handle the amount of
massive money that these kids are dealing with.
So I would just like to suggest and ask Director Donati: Having
been an agent before and now being an athletic director, holis-
tically, how do you guide these young men and women? What do
you automatically do, but what do you think should be done sys-
tem-wide, to ensure that these young men and women, who may
not have any background or guidance from home or direction in
their lives, learn how to manage that money and how to prepare
themselves for the future, for the 2-year football player who sud-
25
denly doesn’t have a degree, or much of one, and no ability to make
a living after that.
So they monetize their college years, but then they are out on the
street, and then they are doing construction later on. We see it all
the time in the pros.
How are we going to do that with these young college students?
Mr. DONATI. Well, it is to double-down on education. And that
is a key aspect of this. And you heard my colleague bring it up, as
well, as a Hall of Fame Chairman.
One of the first things that we lead off our semester with, or lead
out the school year with, is the NIL education. Because we realize
that, in these transfer portal days, if students feel like they are
misadvised or not given appropriate advice, they have other op-
tions, which I think is a good thing.
So we take it very seriously, because they are—you know, one of
the things that keeps me up at night is April 15th, because that
is when taxes come due. And so we spend a lot of time with our
young men and women to make sure that they have done the ap-
propriate work, they are filing their taxes, and that they are not
getting themselves in future trouble.
So I would just say, we take this very seriously. I draw on my
time from being an agent, part of the NFL PA here, when we were
certified in Washington, D.C. There are rules in place in which you
can weed out the bad actors. And so I think that kind of standard,
that kind of uniform standard, at the federal level would do mas-
sive good in our world right now.
Mr. ELLZEY. Okay. Thank you.
Director Smith, you are from which OSU?
Mr. SMITH. Would you like me to spell that for you?
Mr. ELLZEY. Sorry. I had to.
Mr. SMITH. I am on the way out, so I can—you know, be careful.
Mr. ELLZEY. In deference to you, The Ohio State University——
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. ELLZEY.—are you all doing something similar to TCU?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. We do the same thing.
But I want to address a little bit, kind of, nuance to your ques-
tion.
Mr. ELLZEY. Okay.
Mr. SMITH. Let’s be clear: We do a lot of education, all of our
schools do, but it is the third party that impresses that individual.
It is an ‘‘uncle who is not an uncle’’ that is very difficult for us to
get to. And many of these deals are cut by them. And so that is
a challenge that we have in our space and why we need help.
Mr. ELLZEY. Do you know, would you have benefited from that
kind of guidance?
Mr. TORRETTA. Well, I think you read about it in professional
baseball, basketball, football, all kinds of issues that you are talk-
ing about, where a player has made significant amounts of money
and they weren’t wise with it or they were taken advantage of. And
I think that it is happening now to, like you said, a 17- to 21-year-
old kid.
And you can try to educate as much as possible, but, like Gene
said, you may have somebody that is close to you, maybe a family
member, that, you know, when money is involved, some decisions
26
are made not in your best interest. And you try to protect and edu-
cate as best you can, but you are not going to have that in 100 per-
cent of the cases that we are going to get rid of the bad actors, even
with registration. The NFL has registration with financial advisors
and players’ agents, and there are still issues with people that are
registered.
So I think you can educate all you want and do what you can,
and you hope that—you hope that they listen. Because even if you
are 32 years old in the NFL making a lot of money, a lot of them,
you know, some, they don’t listen.
Mr. ELLZEY. Thank you.
Chairman, my time has expired. I yield back. Thank you.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
I now recognize Representative Mfume from the great State of
Maryland for 5 minutes.
Mr. MFUME. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate
the opportunity to be a part of this. I am glad we are dealing with
it. And for some of us, we have been dealing with it for some time.
But allow me, on a point of personal privilege, just to call the at-
tention of the Chair and the Committee to the fact that we have
been joined by Tom McMillen, who many of you will recall his
great years at the University of Maryland, you will recall him as
a Member of our 1972 U.S. Olympic team, and some of you will re-
call him as a Member of this body, having gotten elected in the
100th Congress.
Tom, it is good to see you. Thank you for being back up on the
Hill. Really good to have you.
Mr. Chairman, I have been listening. I think there are two as-
pects that continue to come at me about what we are dealing with
today. One is a police aspect of what has to be done. In other
words, who is going to set the rules and enforce them.
And then the other one is the information we heard from Ms.
Salamone about, if I can use a better term, maybe prevention, the
care of the athlete, what is going on and what is not going on, and
why things seem to be as bad as they are in some respects.
I spent 12 years on the Johns Hopkins Board of Trustees and
then the last 30 on the Board of Regents at Morgan State Univer-
sity. And I can tell you from the public side and the private college
side that colleges and universities really want guidance; they want
information. And what they fear is litigation and liability, because
there is so much that is not clear in many respects.
Universities and colleges approach this in a diffuse manner, in
a difficult manner, and definitely in a different kind of looking
glass.
So I know that there is some apprehension about Congress set-
ting the law and setting the standard and enforcing it. But if some-
body doesn’t do it, it won’t get done, and if it doesn’t get done,
things are going to happen.
So I appreciate the discussions here that we have had about
agent registration. I think we are all kind of in tune and on board
with that. I would not refer to them as ‘‘bad actors,’’ the ones that
are bad. They are more like leeches that take advantage of young
kids, take advantage of their families, take advantage of their un-
27
certainties. And they do it in a number of different ways. It has
been going on, as we all know, forever.
We do need, and I think we are all in agreement on, standard
contracts—standard, so that what is here today is the same thing
that will be there tomorrow and how we operate on issue A is how
we operate on issue A 10 years from now.
We need a prohibition, obviously, against inducements, because
those same leeches, for lack of a better term, find a way to roll in
all sorts of things over the phone, in person, by third party, to kind
of induce these kids to make a decision and to really do a hands-
off afterwards except to say, ‘‘They signed with us because they
just like us.’’ No, in many instances, they are being induced to sign,
and they don’t have any real defense of their own.
And we need strong enforcement measures.
So, if those things are the things that we can agree on, maybe
that is what we ought to start looking at, going forward.
And I think that there really do have to be two different ap-
proaches here. That is the police side.
And while I am at it, let me also talk about these booster collec-
tives, which operate outside of Title IX and find their own hocus-
pocus to get things done and to get students signed in and locked
in.
Now, on the prevention side, I am glad, Ms. Salamone, that you
brought up this whole issue about player health and well-being and
independent oversight.
Five years ago at the University of Maryland, a kid by the name
of Jordan McNair died after a practice because of a heat-related ill-
ness that nobody cared about, and everybody told him, ‘‘Get back
out there. Get back out there. Oh, you are going to be okay.’’ Well,
he wasn’t okay. He was taken off the field, hospitalized with heat-
stroke. They tried to give him an emergency liver transplant; it
didn’t work. Fifteen days later, he was dead.
And, following an investigation, it was determined that there
was a culture in the football program that led to this kind of trag-
edy.
Those tragedies are happening everywhere. They don’t get re-
ported the same way. And those are something on the prevention
side that I think we have to deal with.
Now, I introduced, with the help of some of you in this room, the
Jordan McNair Act just a couple of months ago here in the Con-
gress that would put in place things that are really, really needed:
requiring the use of external defibrillators on the field, requiring
the use of cold-water-immersion equipment on the field.
I just can’t stress enough that, while name, image, and likeness
are important, the health of the player also is extremely important.
And we have a role, I think, Mr. Chairman and others, to find a
way to protect that.
So I would hope that we could keep both approaches in our mind
as we go forward. Neither one is going to win all the votes that it
needs, but this process of amending and maneuvering and man-
aging and massaging these bills will hopefully get us to a point
where we won’t have to sit before this Committee and witnesses
and others, still saying, what do we do, how do we do it, and when
do we get it done?
28
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you for that.
And I now Representative Bean from the great State of Florida.
Mr. BEAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good morning
to you.
And good morning, Small Business Committee. It is a big deal
to have everybody here.
My first question is for Gino Torretta.
Welcome. Gino, I can’t really see you right now because the glare
from your championship ring is just kind of blinding me up here.
Mr. TORRETTA. It is the Heisman ring. I left the two champion-
ship rings at home.
Mr. BEAN. It is just too much.
And trust me, I know how hard it is to wear a championship
ring. We won the Congressional Baseball Game under the leader-
ship of Chair Williams. He presented us with our rings. I lasted 2
days; it was just too heavy, just too heavy.
So I salute you for all that you have done.
And I also, Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate you. This is the
largest Committee attendance that we have had. And we have
outdrawn, I think, Secretary Pete Buttigieg, who is testifying
downstairs. And so the interest of college athletics is certainly
great around the country.
Question. The elephant in the room is not Roger Williams; it is
the fact that there is also another big impact to college athletics
in—the name, image, and likeness, that is a big deal, but also this
transfer portal. What is the greatest impact right now, or is it them
together.
Gino Torretta?
Mr. TORRETTA. Well, I think you have had the convergence of
two major changes in college athletics, where you are allowed to
transfer, which a kid didn’t have the right—or, an athlete didn’t
have the right, if a coach left, to change schools or—you know, I
came from northern California. Maybe I wouldn’t have liked—
maybe I didn’t like Miami after one semester and would have gone
home, but I couldn’t transfer somewhere else without sitting out a
year of my eligibility. So you have that. Now there is the freedom.
And then, with the NIL, we have talked about, it is the induce-
ments of: money is involved, and, ‘‘Hey, Gino is a good player, and
he is young. Maybe we can pay him or his people to transfer.’’
And I think the combination of that, yes, it is not good. Now, is
the transfer portal good in and of itself? Sure. But add in the in-
ducement piece; it is not good for any of us sitting up here.
Mr. BEAN. 10-4.
I was a State legislator too, and I remember, a few years ago,
I got a call from then-head coach Dan Mullen of the University of
Florida, and he said, if we don’t pass a name, image, likeness bill
in the State legislature, we are going to kill Florida schools, be-
cause everybody will go somewhere else.
Is it a fair playing field among States? Are there more lucrative
colleges in other States, or is it about equal? Do some States give
you a better chance to make more money playing college ball?
Mr. TORRETTA. There are differences amongst conferences. The
SEC schools make a different amount of money than Big Ten
29
schools, than the ACC, than Pac-12. That is why we are seeing con-
ference realignment, and we have deemed the West Coast, of Cali-
fornia, Oregon, and Washington, kind of irrelevant in college ath-
letics. All those schools are moving to the Big Ten or the ACC or
SEC.
Mr. BEAN. Gene Smith, is it true, what he says? Does he preach
the truth right now, Gino Torretta?
Mr. SMITH. I don’t know about preaching, but what he said was
pretty good.
You know, but I think the core issue there is in the transfer por-
tal, those things coming together, with where we are with NIL. We
have to remember, transferring is a good thing. Student-athletes
deserve the same rights as other students.
Now, with our institution, where student-athletes decide to
transfer, we have to make sure we understand why. If they are
transferring because we made a commitment that we didn’t live up
to, then we need to go look in the mirror. Don’t point the finger
at the student-athlete. So that is one.
But the reality is, the SEC, the Big Ten, in particular, have done
a great job over the years of creating a culture that everybody else
wants to be a part of.
Mr. BEAN. Gotcha.
Mr. SMITH. And that is reality.
Mr. BEAN. Gotcha.
Here is a toss-up question for every panelist. I am going to ask
you to give me a number, and that number is your confidence, on
a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being absolute confidence that the NCAA
can handle this without congressional action, that would be a 10;
zero, zero confidence and you definitely need Congress to jump in.
Jeremiah Donati, what say you for that number?
Mr. DONATI. Somewhere between zero and 10.
Mr. BEAN. Yeah.
Mr. DONATI. No. I would say this—I would say this. The new
president, Charlie Baker, is—we have a lot of faith in him, but he
needs help, and he need this Congress’s help. We are firmly behind
him, but this is a—the level of complexity we have——
Mr. BEAN. Does that mean 6? Five?
Mr. DONATI. Four.
Mr. BEAN. Gene Smith?
Mr. SMITH. Four. Three to 4. Four.
Mr. BEAN. Gino Torretta.
Mr. TORRETTA. Hope is eternal.
Mr. BEAN. Gotcha.
Maddie Salamone?
Ms. SALAMONE. I think it depends what issue we are talking
about, so I would take issue with the framing and plead the Fifth.
Mr. BEAN. 10-4.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back—Coach, I should say. Coach, I yield
back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Thank you for that.
And I now recognize Representative Scholten from the great
State of Michigan for 5 minutes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. It is a great State, isn’t it? With all due respect
to the Ohioans here.
30
Thank you all so much for coming and testifying today. This is
such an important issue, as we see by the crowds gathered here.
And, you know, I know this to be such an important issue. I am
the daughter of a sports reporter. I was a student-athlete myself—
never in a position for any of what we are talking about here today
to be relevant. But the challenges of balancing the demands of
school, of young adulthood, and the demands of the physical as-
pects of athleticism are so challenging and come together around
this important issue.
Ms. Salamone, my first question is for you. It was incredibly
gripping to hear from your testimony how prevalent psychological
abuse is for female athletes and the detrimental effects it can have
on mental health. Continuing on some of my colleagues’ questions
about putting the health and safety of student-athletes front and
center, I want to talk about the mental health aspects.
Can you talk more about what systemic changes might need to
be made for student-athletes to have the mental health support
and resources that they need, both in general but particularly at
this changing time? We know that social media plays a huge role
in mental health components for young people today.
And, also, more broadly, what enforcement mechanisms need to
be in place so that this toxicity can be reported and tracked and
monitored?
Ms. SALAMONE. I mean, I will start with the enforcement. I
think, again, it is independent oversight.
Schools—there are very good people that work at schools who
very much care about the athletes. But when it comes to stepping
up for an athlete, if it puts the school at risk of, you know, being
exposed for some scandal, they have to put the school first. And es-
pecially depending on who is involved, that can be an issue.
So independent oversight, as a starter.
I think, in terms of addressing mental health, there are so many
different components. You know, number one, there is tremendous
pressure to be an athlete alone. You add on top of that social media
in general, which came before NIL, and that already created a dif-
ferent world.
And I think that there needs to be—you know, these are young,
impressionable individuals that are learning who they are and
learning how they exist in the world and trying to figure out what
they are going to do with their lives. And all of that feels enormous
at that age.
And so I think they need—in addition to mental health resources
that are independent and that are not reporting to coaches what
is being talked about, they need people that actually understand
what it is like to be an athlete at that level. They need people who
they can talk to and have some kind of validation and perspective
given to some of the issues to kind of counsel through on a one-
on-one basis more.
I think that there have been a lot of efforts put in around mental
health, and athletes are talking about it more than ever. But I
think it still has a little bit of a stigma, where you can identify it
in other people but not so much see it in yourself.
I think, when you have injured athletes, that needs to be a top
priority. Injured athletes face a hurdle, in many respects, and can
31
start to feel very isolated from their teams, whether because their
coach kind of starts to push them out and deems them less impor-
tant and tries to get them to leave, which happens, or if it is just
they feel removed, they feel like they are trying to put on an act,
and it takes a lot of effort to keep that brave face up and try to
be a good and positive teammate while you are dealing with some-
thing like that.
So it is so many pressures, that they need—they genuinely need
people that they can talk to that get it.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much. That was very powerful.
Mr. Donati, since 2021, when NIL became permissible, have you
seen name, image, likeness compensation alleviate some of the
broader stressors student-athletes have had to navigate, such as
low graduation rates and poor mental health?
Mr. DONATI. Have I seen NIL alleviate some of the burdens stu-
dent-athletes carry with them?
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yes.
Mr. DONATI. I mentioned in my opening testimony that one of
the things I think that we are not talking about is, a lot of our stu-
dent-athletes, you know, come from underprivileged homes——
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Uh-huh.
Mr. DONATI.—and, a lot of times, there is pressure on them to
support those families once they get to school. So these resources
now, in a lot of cases, are going directly home—to mom, to dad, to
brother, sister, to extended family.
So that, to me, has been a real win and something that I have
seen. If we are talking about mental health, the pressure of that
is so real for some of these young men and women, to be able to
help them at home has been—I have seen that burden alleviated
in real-time. So I think it has been a real win.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Thank you.
I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. All right.
I now recognize Representative Stauber from the great State of
Minnesota.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much.
And to our witnesses, thanks for your testimony. It is from your
experiences; it is very compelling.
And so, I come from northern Minnesota, and we have great col-
lege athletics in our great State. And, of course, hockey is one of
them. And I was fortunate to play hockey, win a national cham-
pionship. And then, all these years later, I can say I fooled the De-
troit Red Wings in deciding the end our contract. And I have two
other brothers that played professionally, and my nephew is with
the Chicago Blackhawks.
I have to tell you, though, I haven’t heard a lot about schooling
and grades and education. Because, eventually, we are done. We
are done.
And so I would like to talk more with a focus on, what are you
doing with the student-athletes that come in—sometimes when
they come from underprivileged homes, what have you, and they
are making really—through the NIL, making, you know, some good
money, how do you balance that with their school education and
their future? And they are not going to be there forever, you know?
32
Mr. Torretta, I am sure you saw people waste a lot of money,
right? And, all of a sudden, one day it is over. You put—in my case,
you put the skates away, and we say, ‘‘You are working that 9:00-
to-5:00 now.’’
How do you deal with that, and how do you prepare that student,
that student-athlete—because they are students first, athletes sec-
ond. So how do you prepare that student-athlete?
Mr. Donati, go ahead.
Mr. DONATI. Well, you just identified the great challenge of
being an athletics director. Because you do inherit young men and
women who are at your university to grow, and some are all ears,
and some aren’t. And some find out later in life that they missed
an opportunity, and that is why we have systems in place to bring
them back for degree completions down the road.
We only have the ability to be with them so many hours of the
day, so many hours of the week. Those are NCAA rules. So we
have to make the best use of those.
I will give you one example, to answer your question, of how we
educate them. We have what is referred to as ‘‘Alston money’’ that
we were allowed to provide our student-athletes, up to $5,980 per
year. And we have a condition on receiving that money that they
go through this financial literacy education. So that is the require-
ment. There are no if’s, and’s, or but’s. If you miss one of those ses-
sions, you do not receive the check.
So we do try to hold them accountable. And it is not a perfect
science, because we are dealing with 18- to 22-year-olds, in some
cases 23-year-olds. But it is the great challenge of being an ath-
letics director, candidly.
Mr. STAUBER. Uh-huh.
Mr. Smith, can you give us your thoughts on what would happen
if some of the proposals we have talked about became law?
And before you answer that, I will just say that I am one that
not necessarily would support the government being involved and
forcing you on this. I would rather have the NCAA and the institu-
tions and the professionals at this table make those decisions. But,
if need be, you know, we in Congress could help out. But I just see
that the less Washington gets involved, I think the better off the
ultimate outcome can be, especially in this situation.
So give me an example, if we put laws forward, what does that
do?
Mr. SMITH. Well, first of all, your premise—now, I am 67. I was
an athletic director at the age of 29. And, trust me, I never wanted
to come to the federal government to ask for help, okay? But we
have reached a point where interest groups, pressure groups, law-
yers, politicians, whoever, have made it very difficult for us to come
up with a strategy to deal with the issues that we are dealing with
today.
And, frankly, as you heard in the ratings of our faith in the
NCAA structure to be able to deal with it, we don’t see that hap-
pening. So that is why we are here. It is that simple. We need the
leadership help that is represented in this room.
So, you know, I really believe that accepting one of the laws that
has been talked about earlier, one of the bills that has the elements
that we have already talked about, it is very important to try and
33
get across to everyone so that we can get it passed. The things that
we have talked about relative to agent management, all those type
of things, we really need help with. And so I would say that the
plan is around that.
Mr. STAUBER. Thank you.
Ms. Salamone, I really, really appreciate your comment about
taking care of our athletes, both their mental health and when they
are injured. And we do need to make that a priority. When an ath-
lete gets injured, you can’t just put them aside. They are part of
the team. And the mental health part of it is really important for
me too.
So I am out of time, but thank you, witnesses, for your testi-
mony, and appreciate your athleticism.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative Thanedar from the great State of
Michigan for 5 minutes.
Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And I want to thank all the witnesses to be here and for all of
their testimony.
You know, my kids are not professional athletes. They are like
me, so they—but they love sports and a wrestler and football. So,
for the first time, I was able to impress my children with my new
job here, you know, with today’s hearing. So I want to thank the
Chairman for this hearing.
You know, I grew up in a family that didn’t have anything to do
with business or entrepreneurship. When I got my education, I
worked as a chemist. I wanted to start a business, and I had abso-
lutely no concept of, you know, how to manage, whether it is
branding, whether it is revenues, whether it is investment.
And I am looking at these young people that have focused so
much on developing their sports skills. They are young, and many
of them come from families that are not into business. How do we
teach these young people so they can look after themselves, make
good, sound financial decisions, and have a strategic plan?
Even, you know, when you start a business, the first thing you
do is write a business plan that you go present it to a financial in-
stitution. How do you bring that entrepreneurship, that ability to,
you know, have a plan, and making sure that they don’t get ex-
ploited by vested interests, but they, you know, are able to make
good decisions for themselves? How does NIL help?
Anybody on the panel, Mr. Smith, anyone else, on this?
Mr. SMITH. Well, I think all of us are into education. And the
blessing that we have—and it includes the athletics—is that we are
probably the only incubator left in higher education where we can
actually have programs specifically for student-athletes to help
them with that.
Mr. THANEDAR. Uh-huh.
Mr. SMITH. I would just give you one example. At our level,
with the students that we recruit, many of them never worked in
their lives. So, when we sit them down as sophomores and tell
them it is a requirement that they write a resume, it starts their
wheels turning——
Mr. THANEDAR. Yeah.
34
Mr. SMITH.—to get them thinking about, ‘‘Uh-oh, what am I
putting on here?’’ And so then you begin the process to help them
understand why it is important to take advantage of the intern-
ships that we have available to you throughout the rest of your ca-
reer here, putting them in the work environment so that they can
see what it means to be in the work environment.
The lessons learned through athletic competition and practice are
directly transferrable to the work environment. That is the blessing
we have in athletics. So how do we help the student-athlete on
their continuum, while they are with us, get to that? And it takes
a lot of programming, it takes a culture, it takes an effort and a
doggedness to make sure you work with those student-athletes.
We have a thousand of them. And that is the highest priority
that we have, is to make sure that they prepare themselves for life
before they walk across that stage and get that diploma.
So I could go on and on about that, because that is what I am
passionate about.
Mr. DONATI. And I would say, overnight, when the NIL laws
were passed, we created 550 new entrepreneurs on campus. And so
one of the things that we did at TCU, which I know are going on
at other universities like The Ohio State University and other
places, is that we took—we have a top business school in the coun-
try, and we have a top athletics program. We said, let’s combine
resources.
And so we literally brought a piece of that business school into
the athletics department, created an endowed professorship, and
brought in Neeley faculty—Neeley School of Business—and got to
work on these entrepreneurship skills. We thought, what an oppor-
tunity.
So I am bragging a little bit about TCU for a moment, but I
know this is going on at other schools across the country. And so
this was—this is the good side of NIL. These are the little
positives. Because this is bigger than any NIL payment. These are
tools they can take with them forever.
Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you so much. These young people need
the help, and I really appreciate all of the work that you do. Thank
you.
Chair, I yield back.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
And we still have some time left. We have some Members on
their way back from other Committee hearings.
And for those of us here, would you like to ask another round
of questions?
You want to talk about the University of Maryland?
Mr. MFUME. Well, I would really like to get back to Ms.
Salamone.
I mean, your perspective on this I did not expect, coming into
this hearing. I hadn’t read the testimonies, but I figured we would
talk about the regular things—the guardrails and what we needed
to do and, you know, oversight.
But I would like for you to talk some more about this whole as-
pect of the athlete being a human being and how we, in the process
of developing good athletes, make sure we are developing good
human beings.
35
Ms. SALAMONE. Yeah. I mean, you talked a lot about Jordan
McNair. And I think his father is someone who is doing tremen-
dous work bringing that humanity to athletes and bringing a pa-
rental perspective that I think we lose a lot of times when it comes
to college athletes, that these are young people that we need to
care about, and there are many people who care about them. And
they get treated like a sack of meat a lot of times, but they are
human beings.
And coaches can tend to lose sight of that when it comes to win-
ning games, treating it like a job, and, you know, forgetting that
even the best bosses in business care about their employees and
treat them well and treat them with respect and care about them
personally.
And I think we need to bring more of that mindset into coaching,
into administration, and getting to know the athletes, what they
care about, what they—you know, not just what they can do on the
field or on the court or wherever their performance is.
And I think that would go a long way, is just bringing back that
humanity, that these are human beings with families that work
very hard but that, you know, can’t do it all and sometimes buckle
under the tremendous pressure of college athletics.
Mr. MFUME. Thank you. And it is a lot of——
Mr. TORRETTA. Can I add——
Mr. MFUME.—pressure.
Mr. TORRETTA. I would just like to add something——
Mr. MFUME. Go right ahead.
Mr. TORRETTA.—on, you know, the independent oversight,
which I agree with. And I would say, the mental abuse happens in
high school athletics to, you know, on up, and it is like, who do you
call? Because if you go even to a high school administrator and you
report something, it becomes self-preservation for that adminis-
trator, because that administrator is working for the institution,
you know, whether it is a high school or a college, and they are
going to try to not have this be a major issue.
And that is where it is like, who do you call as a parent if you
are in high school, or who do you call if you are a kid, that you
know that they are going to have your best interest?
Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh.
Mr. TORRETTA. And I can go back to broadcasting a ball game.
And it was Duke that was in the ball game, and they have one of
the best brain institutes in the world—brain studies, you know,
CT, you know. They had a player come across the field. He gets
knocked out cold. He is back out there three plays later. The same
play, gets knocked out again.
Mr. MFUME. Yeah.
Mr. TORRETTA. And I can remember thinking, I am like, man,
if I was his parent, I would jump over the rail and wring the
coach’s neck, because who allowed that to happen?
And that is what the NFL has tried to deal with, having the
independent doctor on the sideline. Because, no matter where you
are at, it becomes self-preservation. Who you are employed by, that
is who, kind of, you are beholden to.
Mr. MFUME. It does.
36
And, I mean, we are familiar with the abuses—if I might, Mr.
Chairman, for just a minute longer.
I mean, we all saw what happened with Jerry Sandusky and
how, because of that mountain of power, nobody wanted to check
Person A, B, or C, and everybody was intimidated, until it all blew
up. And then the question became, what did you know, when did
you know it, and what did you do about it? And that is what uni-
versities and colleges are faced with.
I would say, however—I must say that—and I think it is impor-
tant for the record—that there are a lot of good coaches out there
who also don’t know where to turn. And it is like the policing. No-
body hates a bad cop more than a good cop. And nobody hates a
bad coach more a good coach.
So we have to find a way, dually, I think, to empower those good
coaches and we have definitely got to figure out how to get this no-
tion of intimidation out of the game. Because people are fearful;
universities are fearful. Everybody is worried about, am I going to
get sued? Am I going to lose my job? Will I be demoted? Will I be
shifted somewhere else in the university?
And the fact that it starts, really, at the high school level, as you
said and talked about, is more challenging for us.
Mr. TORRETTA. Or are you going to—you know, it comes to all
of us individually. Do you have the courage to step up when you
are in that?
I mean, there was an instance, the Dolphins-Patriots game, there
was a, you know, fight in the stands, and somebody lost their life
this past weekend.
Mr. MFUME. I saw that.
Mr. TORRETTA. Do you have the courage, instead of filming it
on camera——
Mr. MFUME. Right.
Mr. TORRETTA.—to actually stop what is going on?
And I think that is—you know, that is just society, in a general
sense, of stepping up—if you see something—‘‘See something, say
something,’’ you know? We do that in the airport. It is, ‘‘Do some-
thing.’’
Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh. Thank you.
Mr. SMITH. And I agree wholeheartedly. And I think—and I ap-
plaud you. Thank you for bringing the focus to that with Ms.
Salamone.
I mean, this is about leadership. This is about culture. You know,
we probably could have won the national championship last year
if we had let Marvin Harrison continue to play. But, at the end of
the day, he had a bad hit, so we took him out. But that was inde-
pendent oversight. The coach had nothing to do with that.
Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh.
Mr. SMITH. And so what she is talking about is 100 percent
right. Structurally, you need to put the people in place who are the
experts to make those type of decisions. My coaches are experts on
the X’s and O’s; they are not a doctor.
Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh.
Mr. SMITH. And I don’t know if many of you saw. Recently, we
just had a session on CNN with one of our former athletes, who
walked into our coach’s office and said he wanted to kill himself.
37
And, fortunately, we have empowered our coach to make sure that
they are very sensitive and humanistic in those situations and lis-
tens and then determines who is the expert to help that individual.
And that is the coach you have to create, to her point. You have
to make sure that the individuals in your organization understand
their talents and skills and be empowered to give those talents—
to give those things that they have talents and skills or no author-
ity over, give it to the people who do.
Mr. MFUME. Uh-huh.
Mr. SMITH. And that does not exist. And not just athletics, but
many organizations.
So I agree wholeheartedly, and thank you for bringing the atten-
tion back to that. Because, at the end of the day, that is what it
is all about, developing people.
Mr. MFUME. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the extra time.
I appreciate it.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
And we’re winding down our time now. I am going to ask what
will probably be the final question.
We have heard some questions today about collectives that are
putting them in a negative light. I think this is missing some im-
portant context to the role they play. Now, collectives also help get
small businesses in contact with some of the athletes to create
these partnerships and brand deals.
So you three might just touch on that real quick. Would one of
you, or all of you, please, talk about these collectives, how they
came about, and how they help your teams compete, and if they
do?
Mr. DONATI. Well, collectives are here because we have allowed
them to be here.
And I think there are a number of them that do it the right way.
I am proud to say, I think that the Flying T Club, which is the col-
lective that supports TCU Athletics, does it the right way. We work
with them, we have a lot of communication with them to under-
stand what they are trying to accomplish and how they are trying
to support our student-athletes. But they know this is not a sham
and that they have got to do their responsibilities to make sure the
real NIL activities are happening.
So they have really gone heavy with community service. We have
all of our student-athletes that are part of this collective engaged
in community service. And so I am really proud of that, because
you see young people in our community that look up to our stu-
dent-athletes. I was one of those once. Our student-athletes are
able to have a real impact in their lives.
Not every collective works that way. And it goes back to having
some uniformity, some oversight over them. But I think, by and
large, collectives, you know, have been a good thing.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Do you want to respond to that?
Mr. SMITH. Yeah, I agree with Jeremiah. And I thank you,
Chairman Williams, for bringing that back to that attention. Be-
cause you are right; we have talked about the negative side of it,
but there are a lot of collectives across this country that are doing
really good for young people. And many of them for Olympic sport
athletes, not just football and basketball. We talked earlier before
38
Title IX. There are many collectives that are doing well in that
space.
So, yes, I agree with Jeremiah that there are so many of them
that are doing well.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Gino?
Mr. TORRETTA. I would just think that the contributors to the
collectives, they want to support their institutions. You know, I
think that maybe sometimes the small business maybe gets a nega-
tive connotation. Because if you have a small business, you reach
out to—I would probably call Gene and say, ‘‘Hey, I have a small
business in Columbus. Is there a student-athlete? I would like to
support.’’
And I think what collectives were formed for, if I didn’t have a
small business but I wanted to support the players, I could donate
money to that collective, and then they could disburse it and sup-
port the athletics.
So I think there are good things, but without policing of any-
thing, there obviously are going to be bad issues—bad things.
Chairman WILLIAMS. Yeah.
Ms. SALAMONE. Yeah, I would echo the sentiment. I think that
there are collectives that are doing good work. Some are connecting
athletes with charitable organizations.
I spoke to one person who told a story about—you know, I think
one of the issues is, athletes go to whoever can help them with cer-
tain issues, and that is not always the school. And so this collective
was able to actually help an athlete by connecting them with a so-
cial worker who could help them with a familial issue that they
were dealing with. And it was causing them difficulty, where they
were asking for money, when what they really needed was help in
this other area that they were able to provide because they lis-
tened.
So there are good people in this space doing good work. But those
are the types of issues—again, to go back to why it is important
to have players in the room, they will explain that to you, that it
is not just about money. It is about, how can you help with the
real-life things that happen outside of sports?
Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, thank you.
And I just want to say that this has been a great hearing. It is
good to see so many of you in the audience, that weren’t witnesses
today, that care about this.
I think it also shows that in Washington we can get some bipar-
tisan stuff done. Not everything is driven by anger. But also the
importance of this, college athletics, what it is to our country.
So I want to thank all of you for being here today.
Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to submit ad-
ditional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the
Chair, which will be forwarded to the witnesses.
I will ask the witnesses to please respond promptly when that
happens.
If there is no further business, without objection, the committee
is now adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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