Access Denied: Challenges for Women- and Minority-Owned Businesses Accessing Capital and Financial Services During the Pandemic, House hearing transcript (July 9, 2020), GovInfo CHRG-116hhrg43195, PDF
Summary
At this July 9, 2020 virtual hearing of the House Financial Services Subcommittee on Diversity and Inclusion, chaired by Joyce Beatty, members heard from Ron Busby Sr. of the U.S. Black Chambers, Carmen Castillo of the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, Karen Kerrigan of the SBE Council and Jenell Ross of Bob Ross Auto Group. Chairwoman Beatty cited a Color of Change analysis that found only 1 in 10 African-American and Latinx-owned businesses received the requested funds through the Paycheck Protection Program. Ranking Member Ann Wagner said Congress had authorized some $660 billion in forgivable PPP loans, with a set-aside of $10 billion for community financial institutions. The printed hearing (Serial No. 116–102) includes the witnesses' prepared statements and written statements from other groups.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
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ACCESS DENIED: CHALLENGES FOR
WOMEN- AND MINORITY-OWNED
BUSINESSES ACCESSING CAPITAL
AND FINANCIAL SERVICES
DURING THE PANDEMIC
VIRTUAL HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIVERSITY
AND INCLUSION
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JULY 9, 2020
Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
Serial No. 116–102
(
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
43–195 PDF WASHINGTON : 2021
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
MAXINE WATERS, California, Chairwoman
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York PATRICK MCHENRY, North Carolina,
NYDIA M. VELÁZQUEZ, New York Ranking Member
BRAD SHERMAN, California ANN WAGNER, Missouri
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma
WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri BILL POSEY, Florida
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
AL GREEN, Texas BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri STEVE STIVERS, Ohio
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado ANDY BARR, Kentucky
JIM A. HIMES, Connecticut SCOTT TIPTON, Colorado
BILL FOSTER, Illinois ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio FRENCH HILL, Arkansas
DENNY HECK, Washington TOM EMMER, Minnesota
JUAN VARGAS, California LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia
AL LAWSON, Florida WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio
MICHAEL SAN NICOLAS, Guam TED BUDD, North Carolina
RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee
KATIE PORTER, California TREY HOLLINGSWORTH, Indiana
CINDY AXNE, Iowa ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
SEAN CASTEN, Illinois JOHN ROSE, Tennessee
AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
BEN MCADAMS, Utah LANCE GOODEN, Texas
ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, New York DENVER RIGGLEMAN, Virginia
JENNIFER WEXTON, Virginia WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts VAN TAYLOR, Texas
TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina
MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
JESÚS ‘‘CHUY’’ GARCIA, Illinois
SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
CHARLA OUERTATANI, Staff Director
(II)
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SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION
JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio, Chairwoman
WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri ANN WAGNER, Missouri, Ranking Member
AL GREEN, Texas FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma
JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas TED BUDD, North Carolina
AL LAWSON, Florida DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee
AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts TREY HOLLINGSWORTH, Indiana
TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio, Vice Ranking
ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina Member
MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin
SYLVIA GARCIA, Texas LANCE GOODEN, Texas
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
(III)
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CONTENTS
Page
Hearing held on:
July 9, 2020 ....................................................................................................... 1
Appendix:
July 9, 2020 ....................................................................................................... 39
WITNESSES
THURSDAY, JULY 9, 2020
Busby, Ron, Sr., President and CEO, U.S. Black Chambers, Inc. ....................... 5
Castillo, Carmen, Chairwoman, Board of Directors, U.S. Hispanic Chamber
of Commerce ......................................................................................................... 7
Kerrigan, Karen, President and CEO, SBE Council ............................................. 8
Ross, Jenell, President, Bob Ross Auto Group ...................................................... 10
APPENDIX
Prepared statements:
Busby, Ron, Sr. ................................................................................................. 40
Castillo, Carmen ............................................................................................... 46
Kerrigan, Karen ................................................................................................ 77
Ross, Jenell ....................................................................................................... 83
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Beatty, Hon. Joyce:
Written statement of the Asian/Pacific Islander American Chamber of
Commerce and Entrepreneurship ................................................................ 87
Written statement of the Association of Women’s Business Centers ........... 90
Written statement of Clever Girl Finance ...................................................... 91
Written statement of Creative Investment Research .................................... 95
Written statement of Include Ventures .......................................................... 100
Written statement of Fund Humanity ............................................................
11
Written statement of the National Bankers Association .............................. 115
Written statement of United Bank ................................................................. 118
(V)
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ACCESS DENIED: CHALLENGES FOR
WOMEN- AND MINORITY-OWNED
BUSINESSES ACCESSING CAPITAL
AND FINANCIAL SERVICES
DURING THE PANDEMIC
Thursday, July 9, 2020
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIVERSITY
AND INCLUSION,
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 12 p.m., via
Webex, Hon. Joyce Beatty [chairwoman of the subcommittee] pre-
siding.
Members present: Representatives Beatty, Clay, Green,
Gottheimer, Lawson, Pressley, Adams, Dean, Garcia of Texas, Phil-
lips; Wagner, Mooney, Kustoff, Gonzalez of Ohio, and Steil.
Ex officio present: Representative Waters.
Also present: Representatives Garcia of Illinois and Porter.
Chairwoman BEATTY. The Subcommittee on Diversity and Inclu-
sion will come to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of
the subcommittee at any time.
Also, without objection, members of the full Financial Services
Committee who are not members of the subcommittee are author-
ized to participate in today’s hearing.
Members are reminded to keep their video function on at all
times, even when they are not being recognized by the Chair. Mem-
bers are also reminded that they are responsible for muting and
unmuting themselves, and to mute themselves after they are fin-
ished speaking.
Consistent with the regulations accompanying H. Res. 965, staff
will only mute Members and witnesses as appropriate when not
being recognized by the Chair, to avoid inadvertent background
noise. Members are reminded that all House rules relating to order
and decorum apply to this remote hearing.
Today’s hearing is entitled, ‘‘Access Denied: Challenges for
Women- and Minority-Owned Businesses Accessing Capital and Fi-
nancial Services During the Pandemic.’’
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes to give an opening state-
ment.
Good afternoon. Small businesses are critical to the United
States’ economic growth. They contribute 65 percent of all new
(1)
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2
jobs, and they are a critical tool for wealth creation and increasing
employment. But minority- and women-owned businesses face nu-
merous unique and disparate barriers to market entry. We must
act to eliminate the systemic and racial barriers that impede the
formation and competitiveness of minority- and women-owned busi-
nesses. These barriers create an uneven playing field when it
comes to accessing capital, leveraging loans, and other credit prod-
ucts necessary to fund and sustain their business.
In today’s hearing, we will discuss how easing impediments on
African-American access to capital will result in economic and em-
ployment growth in minority communities, and in the United
States overall, and examine the historical and systemic challenges
faced by minority- and women-owned businesses, such as a lack of
access to capital and systemic racism, and how those persistent
challenges have led to closure at a disproportionate rate during the
COVID-19 pandemic.
Small businesses experienced a 22-percent closure rate as the re-
sult of the COVID-19 pandemic from February to April of 2020.
But the closure rate for minority-owned businesses was signifi-
cantly higher, with 41 percent of Black-owned businesses, 32 per-
cent of Latinx-owned businesses, and 20 percent of Asian-owned
businesses closed over the same period.
In April of this year, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York re-
ported that minority- and women-owned businesses are signifi-
cantly more likely to show signs of limited financial health, and are
twice as likely to be classified as at risk, or distressed, than non-
minority small businesses. Further, distressed companies are 3
times as likely as healthy businesses to close because of the 2-
month revenue shot. The Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) was
established under the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Secu-
rity (CARES) Act, and administered by the Small Business Admin-
istration (SBA) and Treasury, as funding lifelines for distressed
businesses responding to the COVID-19 pandemic.
But a recent analysis by Color of Change in the United States
found that only 1 in 10 African-American and Latinx-owned busi-
nesses received the requested funds through the program.
I have heard from many minority-owned businesses who did ev-
erything right. Yet, they did not get a loan number or a loan in the
first round. Many minority businesses shared that the Enhance-
ment Act was not adequately designed to enhance, or assist, small
businesses.
Thanks to the partnership of Financial Services Committee
Chairwoman Maxine Waters, and Small Business Committee
Chairwoman Nydia Velazquez, adjustments were made in the sec-
ond round of funding. On June 30th, the Small Business Adminis-
tration announced that 4.9 million loans totaling $521 billion have
been granted by the PPP.
So now, let me just say that I look forward to hearing from our
distinguished witnesses who will share key insights regarding the
ongoing plight of minority- and women-owned businesses, and what
steps Congress and the private sector can take to ensure necessary
and fair inclusion in the economy.
The Chair now recognizes the ranking member of the sub-
committee, my good friend, colleague, and someone whom I am de-
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3
lighted to see, although it is on Zoom today, Ranking Member Ann
Wagner.
Mrs. WAGNER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and it is a de-
light to see you and all of our subcommittee here this afternoon,
and thank you for holding this hearing.
I want to welcome our witnesses and thank them for testifying
about the obstacles that women- and minority-owned businesses
face when it comes to accessing capital and financial services.
When this pandemic began, and businesses were forced to close
their doors in order to prevent the spread of the coronavirus, Con-
gress took swift action to stabilize the economy, to keep Americans
employed and businesses from closing, and to give our healthcare
workers the resources that they needed to combat the disease.
Those actions included providing regulatory relief to lenders, and
access to emergency programs through the Federal Reserve, and
the Small Business Administration.
I want to highlight a few specific solutions that Congress has
provided during this pandemic to ensure that U.S. businesses con-
tinue to have access to the relief they need. We have lowered the
community bank leverage ratio to give community banks the ability
to continue lending as cash deposits have increased. We have given
flexibility to banks that would have been required to comply with
the Current Expected Credit Loss (CECL) accounting standards,
that would have locked up billions of dollars for financial institu-
tions and hindered their ability to lend to those who need assist-
ance the most.
Finally, we authorized some $660 billion in forgivable loans
under the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP), which has sup-
ported more than 51 million American jobs, and over 80 percent of
all small business employees. The Program included a set-aside
amount of $10 billion for community financial institutions.
When it comes to ensuring that women- and minority-owned
businesses can access PPP loans and other funding, I am glad to
see that some lenders have taken the initiative. Lenders, including
Citigroup, JPMorgan Chase, and Bank of America, have provided
data highlighting their work to ensure that PPP is available to a
diverse group of customers. For example, JPMorgan set up a new
program to focus on underserved entrepreneurs. And Bank of
America is conducting extensive outreach to small business clients
in low- and moderate-income neighborhoods to raise awareness
about PPP and other loan facilities.
But it is not just our nation’s biggest banks that are helping
those in need. Let me tell you about what happened in St. Louis
last month, with a banker from Midwest BankCentre. He was get-
ting his hair cut when he overheard that the African-American
woman barbershop owner had taken out a $5,000 payday loan to
pay bills. The banker offered to assist her in applying for PPP
loans. That interaction eventually led, most importantly, to the
bank signing a deal with the National Minority Supplier Business
Development Council, a group which helps minority-owned busi-
nesses access PPP loans. I commend these professionals for their
outreach, and I urge other firms in the industry to follow suit if
they have not done so already.
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I have also introduced the Calculate PPP Forgiveness Act, with
my friend and colleague from Missouri, Congressman Clay, which
instructs SBA and Treasury to create or certify a loan forgiveness
calculator to resolve confusion between lenders and small busi-
nesses over what costs should be calculated, and to help small busi-
nesses complete their forgiveness forms.
This bill has the support of U.S. Black Chambers, Inc., the
Heartland St. Louis Black Chamber of Commerce, the National
Federation of Independent Business (NFIB), the Independent Com-
munity Bankers of America (ICBA), the Missouri Bankers Associa-
tion, and so many, many others. It is especially important for busi-
nesses that don’t have the resources to hire outside consultants to
help them with the forgiveness process.
While this hearing is about access to capital during the pan-
demic, this subcommittee must also focus on permanent regulatory
reforms to lift and strengthen minority- and women-owned busi-
nesses beyond the pandemic. These businesses benefit when we cut
unnecessary costs and expand opportunities for investors to put
their money to work.
Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
And I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes the Chair of the full Financial Services
Committee, Chairwoman Maxine Waters. It is indeed an honor for
me to introduce someone who really needs no introduction. She is
an advocate for the people and, as we talk about the PPP plan
today and other financial services issues, please know that her fin-
gerprints, and her footprints, are all over it, and she has been rec-
ognized for her great leadership.
No further words are needed. Chairwoman Maxine Waters from
the great State of California, I recognize you for 1 minute, or as
much time as you may consume.
Chairwoman WATERS. I want to thank you so much, Chairwoman
Beatty, for all of the work that you are doing to really get the
whole discussion of inclusion and diversity in the national eyesight.
You are doing a wonderful job, and I thank you for convening this
important hearing on the struggles that women- and minority-
owned businesses face in accessing capital.
Before the COVID-19 crisis began, as you have said, minority-
and women-owned businesses had serious challenges in accessing
capital. For example, 2018 data showed that minority business
owners were less likely to be approved for loans or were approved
for lower loan amounts and higher interest rates than their White
counterparts. Forbes also reported that when women- and minor-
ity-owned business owners applied for loans, they were often re-
jected due to a lack of assets caused by the widening racial and
gender wealth gaps.
Despite these challenges, women- and minority-owned businesses
have grown 10 times faster than all other U.S. small businesses.
However, we will never close the racial and gender gap and provide
for expanded entrepreneurship opportunities for women and people
of color until we can address these capital challenges.
So, I am very pleased to be with you today, and I look forward
to hearing from our witnesses. I thank our witnesses for being
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here, and I am looking forward to hearing their views on how to
help solve this challenge.
Thank you, Chairwoman Beatty.
And I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairwoman BEATTY. And I thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Today, I am honored to welcome the testimony of our four wit-
nesses. Our first witness, Mr. Ron Busby, Sr., is President and
CEO of the United States Black Chamber of Commerce. Ron is a
former CEO and serves on the Pfizer Small Business Council and
the White House African American Leadership Council.
Our second witness, Ms. Carmen Castillo, is Chairwoman of the
Board of Directors of the United States Hispanic Chamber of Com-
merce. Carmen is also the President and CEO of SDI International,
which she founded in 1992.
Our third witness, Ms. Karen Kerrigan, is President and CEO of
the Small Business & Entrepreneurship Council. Karen has been
appointed to numerous Federal advisory boards, including the Na-
tional Women’s Business Council, the U.S.-Iraq Business Dialogue,
and the United States Treasurer’s Taxpayer Advisory Panel.
Our final witness, Jenell Ross, is President of Bob Ross Auto-
motive Group. She is the only second-generation African-American
woman dealer in the country. Jenell also serves as the Chair of the
Board of Directors for the Cincinnati branch of the Federal Reserve
Bank of Cleveland.
Witnesses, you are reminded that your oral testimony will be
limited to 5 minutes. A chime will go off at the end of your time,
and I ask that you respect the members’ and other witnesses’ time
by wrapping up your oral testimony. And without objection, your
written statements will be made a part of the record.
Mr. Busby, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral
presentation of your testimony. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF RON BUSBY SR., PRESIDENT AND CEO, U.S.
BLACK CHAMBERS, INC.
Mr. BUSBY. Thank you, Chairwoman Beatty, Ranking Member
Wagner, Chairwoman Maxine Waters, and distinguished members
of the subcommittee, for the opportunity to share testimony with
you today.
My name is Ron Busby, and I serve as the President and CEO
of the U.S. Black Chambers, Incorporated, the nation’s leading
voice for Black businesses across the country. We represent 145
Chambers in 42 States, with a membership base of over 332,000
Black-owned businesses, founded on our five pillars, which are: ad-
vocacy; access to capital; contracting opportunities; entrepreneur
training; and Chamber development.
The U.S. Black Chambers, better known as USBC, for the past
decade has been providing committed visionary leadership and ad-
vocacy and the realization of economic empowerment. Through the
creation of resources of initiatives, we support African-American
Chambers of Commerce and business organizations in the work of
developing and growing Black businesses.
Clearly, minority- and women-owned business enterprises
(MWBEs) are critical components of the nation’s vast economy.
These funds collectively provide upwards of $1 trillion in annual re-
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6
ceipts, and contribute nearly 9 million jobs to the country’s labor
market. MWBEs have been cited as the fastest-growing segment of
businesses, whose results created 40 percent of America’s new jobs
in recent decades.
Despite this extraordinary impact, it is Black business owners
and entrepreneurs that history and data shows face systemic bar-
riers to entrepreneurial resources and access to capital, among
other daunting challenges. In light of these facts, we believe that
strategically engineered policy can put a stop to continuing dispari-
ties experienced by Black-owned businesses.
Our participation in today’s virtual hearing underscores the crit-
ical role of continued advocacy through the establishment of public
policy that addresses continuing challenges in accessing capital and
financial services.
Amidst the ongoing health and economic crisis, the most perma-
nent disparity exists within Black America. Case in point, the
country lost 3.3 million small businesses in the first and second
quarter of the year, but the number of Black entrepreneurs de-
clined 41 percent. Nearly 450,000 Black-owned businesses were
closed between the months of February and April.
In addition to this disproportionate decline, Black America suf-
fered the brunt of the labor lost during the pandemic. The Black
unemployment rate peaked nearly to 17 percent last month. De-
spite the number of Black-owned businesses located in the nation’s
fastest growing markets, these enterprises faced economic derail-
ment and revenue loss prior to the pandemic in part because Black
firms are overwhelmingly represented among the high-impact in-
dustries and, in part, because they were already in weaker finan-
cial positions. The pandemic simply exacerbated these challenges.
Even though congressional action resulted in nearly $700 billion
in relief to small businesses through the Payroll Protection Pro-
gram, this week’s SBA and Treasury records show that the case of
structural discrimination against Black business owners remains
prevalent. In the Program’s more than 650,000 PPP loans made
above $150,000, only 143 Black firms received a loan of that size,
and 90 percent of the members of the U.S. Black Chambers have
reported that they have found far less of what they asked for, or
none at all.
Fortunately, we here at the U.S. Black Chambers are working to
address these disparities by creating resources and funding that
bridges the gaps in effective Federal policy. To jump-start recovery,
our organization recently launched a transformative initiative
called the, ‘‘Buy Black’’ platform, which focuses on supporting the
millions of Black businesses by providing grassroots assistance to
the smallest Black firms in one digital marketplace.
USBC is also forging ahead with a group of industry-leading
technology partners to announce a Black business certification pro-
gram aimed at increasing contract awards from both the Federal
Government and corporate America. These programs will put the
corporate and government sectors’ rhetoric to the test and truly im-
prove investments within our community.
These are just a few actions that the USBC is taking to ensure
that Black Americans weather this storm.
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We welcome Federal legislation that will foster, not overlook,
Black America, and close the expanding racial wealth gap. We wel-
come the challenges that the Chamber has passed the HEROES
Act, but believe legislatures who understand the importance of
safeguarding the Black community must embrace equitable policies
that will include reforming the 8(a) program to make sure that the
most vulnerable and impacted Black firms receive priorities focused
between 2021 and 2026; reauthorizing the Obama-era QuickPay
initiative to guarantee that Black government contractors are paid
within a 15-day period; and also, ensuring that within the discus-
sion of a new infrastructure bill, that Black and local businesses
are included in the contract opportunities, reconsidering the OCC’s
new CRA proposal to certify that changes truly benefit Black
America, and prioritizing legislation that will provide Black-owned
businesses with additional access to SBA loans, training and edu-
cation programs, and tax incentives to invest in startups.
Finally, lawmakers must pass legislation that will codify the
MBDA into law, increase—
Chairwoman BEATTY. I must remind the gentleman that his time
is up. But thank you very much.
Mr. BUSBY. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Busby can be found on page 40
of the appendix.]
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you.
I now recognize Ms. Castillo for 5 minutes to give an oral presen-
tation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF CARMEN CASTILLO, CHAIRWOMAN, BOARD OF
DIRECTORS, U.S. HISPANIC CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
Ms. CASTILLO. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters, Chairwoman
Beatty, and members of the subcommittee, for the opportunity to
share testimony on behalf of the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Com-
merce (USHCC).
I am the President and CEO of SDI International, one of the
largest minority- and women-owned businesses in the United
States. My team has been providing opportunities in business serv-
ices to Fortune 500 companies for the last 27 years. I am an His-
panic immigrant, and an advocate for women- and minority-owned
businesses. Today, I am honored to represent the U.S. Hispanic
Chamber of Commerce as the chairwoman of the board of directors.
The USHCC is America’s largest Hispanic business organization.
We operate as an umbrella for more than 250 local Hispanic cham-
bers and business associations nationwide. We represent over 4.7
million Hispanic business enterprises that contribute an estimated
$800 billion annually to the U.S. economy.
The Hispanic community has been affected the most economi-
cally by COVID-19. A study made by Stanford University shows
that 65 percent of Latino-owned companies in the U.S. report that
they will not be able to continue operating beyond 6 months. This
is the reason why 60 percent of Latino families have lost jobs and
suffered pay cuts since the pandemic began.
Furthermore, working from home is not an option for over 84
percent of Latinos, making our community extremely vulnerable to
the challenges our country is facing.
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According to a U.S. Latino survey, millions of Latino families and
businesses did not receive any support from the Coronavirus Aid,
Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act, including 48 percent
of households earning less than $25,000 a year. Due to the severity
and urgency of the situation, we would like to collaborate with con-
gressional leaders to participate in the creation of legislation that
will economically impact Hispanic businesses.
We are advocating for the following: expand opportunities for our
business community to participate in Federal procurement con-
tracting with fundraising to serve as a technical assistance bridge
to provide necessary education for our members; forgive all 2019
payable taxes for America’s 30 million small businesses; provide an
additional $65 billion for a minority equity fund to support minor-
ity business enterprises through economic relief programs imple-
mented by Treasury, the Federal Reserve, and the Small Business
Administration (SBA); expand lending for Minority Depository In-
stitutions (MDIs) and Community Development Financial Institu-
tions (CDFIs); and more transparent reporting on the Paycheck
Protection Program and other disaster relief programs.
As Congress continues to allocate stimulus funding, minorities
need to be included in the management, distribution, and grant al-
location of these funded programs with the same access to Con-
gress as any large company. Allow undocumented business owners
and undocumented workers who can prove that they have paid
U.S. taxes in 2018 to take advantage of the CARES Act and other
stimulus funding.
I wanted to share statistics related to the economic impact. Prior
to COVID-19, Latinos started businesses at 3 times the rate of the
national average. Latinas started businesses at 6 times that rate.
One out of every four small businesses is run by an Hispanic entre-
preneur, and 60 million Hispanic Americans account for $2.3 tril-
lion of the U.S. economic activity. If Congress encourages financial
institutions to provide capital for our community to scale up, an ad-
ditional $1.38 trillion will be generated for the U.S. economy. If we
fail to support our businesses, our economy will shrink by billions,
we believe, far exceeding the investment needed from the Federal
Government in order to rescue them.
I thank you for your time, and we look forward to collaborating
with you to create a lasting change.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Castillo can be found on page 46
of the appendix.]
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you very much.
Ms. Kerrigan, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to give an
oral presentation of your testimony.
STATEMENT OF KAREN KERRIGAN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, SBE
COUNCIL
Ms. KERRIGAN. Thank you very much. And good afternoon,
Chairwoman Beatty, Ranking Member Wagner, and, of course,
Chairwoman Waters, and members of the subcommittee. Thank
you for the opportunity to be a part of this hearing today, and for
focusing on the critical issue of access to capital for women- and
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minority-owned businesses, particularly during this unprecedented
period of time for all small businesses and, indeed, all Americans.
SBE Council is an advocacy, research, and education organiza-
tion dedicated to protecting small businesses, and promoting entre-
preneurs. And for more than 25 years now, we have worked on a
range of issues, including access to capital to strengthen the eco-
system for start-up activity and small business growth.
As noted by my fellow witnesses, closed financial networks, long-
standing financial institutional biases, and underserved markets
work against the efforts of women and minority entrepreneurs who
need capital to start up, operate, and grow their businesses. While
the bipartisan CARES Act got money out the door quickly and
helped many small businesses, the distribution channels of the first
tranche of the funding underscored how the traditional financial
system leaves many small businesses behind, particularly women-
and minority-owned businesses.
That is why very early on, before the launch of PPP, we were
vocal advocates to bring Fintech lenders into the program to reach
the kind of businesses that the PPP was also intended to reach, in-
cluding women- and minority-owned businesses. Bringing Fintech
into the PPP program certainly helped in reaching many small
businesses that were falling through the cracks. But even when
you account for their participation, along with the late involvement
of the CDFIs, significant numbers of women- and minority-owned
businesses have been left without the capital they need, or needed,
to weather and navigate the COVID-19 crisis.
As I noted in my written testimony, this was likely related to the
design of PPP, which many self-employed sole proprietors felt was
not structured for them. As we know, as many as 95 percent of
Black entrepreneurs are sole proprietors, and 88 percent of women-
owned businesses fall into this category as well.
We know that Congress is looking at some additional fixes from
perhaps a P4 program, with many of the elements that we support,
to address these shortfalls. And SBE Council is engaged in these
discussions.
Support is obviously still needed, given the uncertainty of the
pandemic and how it is and will continue to affect reopenings and
the economy moving forward. In a recent survey by the National
Association of Women Business Owners (NAWBO), 45 percent of
respondents stated that they still need access to capital in the form
of grants or loans.
We see the private sector, large companies, successful entre-
preneurs, as well as State and local Governments, stepping up to
meet the capital needs of struggling small businesses and we hope
this continues because the need is vast. And we were pleased to see
the SEC advance the temporary and conditional rule that eases
some of the red tape and costs associated with regulated
crowdfunding.
Small businesses are just learning of this temporary rule, which,
unfortunately, expires August 31st, and we are asking that it be
extended at least through the end of the year. The rule was truly
was designed to help small businesses, and the feedback that I am
getting from several of our online platform members that we work
with, who largely serve women- and minority-owned businesses, is
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that the relief is making a difference in terms of making this meth-
od of financing more accessible to these firms.
With respect to investment crowdfunding in general, there is a
tremendous potential and momentum behind this approach to fi-
nancing for women and minority entrepreneurs. We believed an-
other proposed rulemaking moving through the SEC, which allows
for testing the waters, lifting the cap that can be raised from $1
million to $5 million, the use of special-purpose vehicles as passed
by the House in legislation, sponsored by Chairwoman Waters, and
demo day clarification, will simplify and improve the crowdfunding
offering framework, which will make it more accessible and cost-
efficient for women and minority entrepreneurs.
We are also exploring the concept of a crowdfunding public-pri-
vate partnership, whereby the Federal Government can match suc-
cessful raises up to a certain dollar amount, along with investment
tax credits. They do this in the U.K., and it has been very success-
ful in that country.
At the end of the day, there is an extraordinary amount of pri-
vate capital out there, and SBE Council is very committed to policy
innovations and incentives that unleash that capital and get it into
the hands of women- and minority-owned businesses. There is a lot
of work to do, and I look forward to our discussion today.
Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Kerrigan can be found on page
77 of the appendix.]
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you so much for your testimony.
And now, Ms. Ross, you are recognized for 5 minutes to give an
oral presentation of your testimony. And first, let me say that I
would also like to congratulate you on the 23rd anniversary of you
leading Bob Ross Automotive Group.
STATEMENT OF JENELL ROSS, PRESIDENT, BOB ROSS AUTO
GROUP
Ms. ROSS. Thank you, Chairwoman Beatty, and thank you,
Chairwoman Waters and the members of the subcommittee, for the
opportunity to share my story with you today.
My name is Jenell Ross, and I am the President of the Bob Ross
Auto Group in Centerville, Ohio, which is the only Mercedes-Benz
and Buick-GMC dealership owned by an African-American woman
in the United States. My father, Robert P. Ross, Sr., was selected
to be in the first class of the General Motors Minority Dealer De-
velopment Academy in 1972. My father was the first in his class
to purchase a dealership, and it was the only one, when he passed
away, to still be in business.
My father became the first African-American automobile dealer
in the States of Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, and West Virginia, along
with being the first African-American International Harvester
Dealer in the U.S. in 1974.
In 1979, my father purchased a Buick and Mercedes-Benz dealer-
ship in Centerville, Ohio, and he became the first African-American
Mercedes-Benz dealer in the world. In 1997, my mother, Norma J.
Ross, assumed command of the dealerships after my dad’s untimely
death. At 27-years-old, I was thrust into running the day-to-day op-
erations as vice president/dealer principal. Imagine walking into an
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automobile dealership meeting as, sometimes, the only female and/
or person of color in the room who didn’t work for the manufac-
turer or the travel company that set up the meeting.
I became president of the Bob Ross Auto Group in 2010 as the
result of my mother’s passing. It has been 23 years this week that
I have led our organization, and I hate to say that the diversifica-
tion of the automobile dealer body is no better than when I started.
According to the National Association of Minority Automobile
Dealers (NAMAD), at the end of 2019, there were a total of 1,243
ethnic minority automobile dealerships in the United States out of
19,000. The breakdown is as follows: African American, 265; His-
panics, 585; Asian, 283; and Native American, 110.
Ethnic minority women represent 72 of the 1,076 women-owned
automobile dealerships. Only four of these women are African
American—Gail Martin, Juanita Baranco, Eillaena Fairhurst, and
myself.
Since the initial launch of PPP and EIDL programs, several fi-
nancial institutions explained to many small businesses that they
were excluded from gaining access to these financial opportunities
because of the, ‘‘know your customer’’ rule, even if the business had
a banking relationship without having a credit lending history with
them. NAMAD states that PPP left over 60 percent of the minority
dealer body without bank approval and/or were told to seek an-
other financial institution to apply for funding in the first round.
Historically, access to capital has been the leading concern of
women- and minority-owned businesses to survive, and during this
pandemic, it has been no different. Even though the Bob Ross Auto
Group has a very strong relationship with our financial institution,
I, too, faced obstacles when applying for the PPP loan. After sev-
eral days of waiting for proper information to submit our applica-
tion, I, too, was instructed to go elsewhere.
Fortunately, I was able to approach another financial institution,
and in a matter of 48 hours, I was given approval. I, unlike many
women- and minority-owned businesses, had the reserves and the
safety net through financial relationships to fall back on.
Despite these preparations and adjustments of our business oper-
ations during the pandemic, we are continuing to invest thousands
of dollars to ensure the safety of our employees, clients, and facili-
ties. I still feel a heightened sense of uncertainty, much like other
women- and minority-owned businesses, of not knowing if we will
be able to survive in the short term.
In the end, the PPP program has allowed small businesses to
keep our doors open, and to help reduce the amount of employee
layoffs and business closures. The majority of all ethnic minority
auto dealers are located in rural areas, and provide a significant
amount of resources and financial support to local businesses, civic,
and community-based organizations. NAMAD’s concern is, once
these funds run out, will these small businesses be forced to lay off
employees, once again, who had to get rehired to participate in the
PPP program?
As women- and minority-owned companies continue to pivot their
operations during the pandemic and navigate a new normal, it is
imperative to utilize multiple resources to help drive their sustain-
ability and growth. Being certified through the Women’s Business
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Enterprise National Council (WBENC) and the National Minority
Supplier Development Council (NMSDC) allows business owners to
develop relationships with corporations and businesses who value
diversity and inclusion and are looking to partner with like-minded
companies.
We have been awarded many contracts from the State of Ohio
Minority Set Aside Bid regarding their vehicle needs. We continue
to work with our regional partners to help grow our business and
yield success of winning bids to add revenue to our operation. At
the end of the day, without access to capital, a sound financial rela-
tionship, and education, the wealth gap for women- and minority-
owned businesses will continue to widen.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Ross can be found on page 83 of
the appendix.]
Chairwoman BEATTY. Again, I thank all of the witnesses for your
testimony. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes for questions.
Recently, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York found that ap-
proximately 60 percent of minority- and women-owned businesses
are considered at risk or distressed. We also read that many of
them use their personal funds. Our committee has held hearings
to examine the cause and impact of racial wealth disparities.
To our two Chambers leaders of the African American Chamber
and the Hispanic Chamber, how does the racial wealth gap impact
access to emergency funding for minority-owned businesses during
periods of financial challenges, such as we are going through now
with COVID-19? So, that will be to the two of you.
And then, Ms. Ross, do you believe the racial wealth gap impedes
the success of minority- and women-owned businesses?
I will start with you, Mr. Busby.
And I will then go to you, Ms. Castillo.
Mr. BUSBY. Thank you for the question, and thank you, again,
for allowing us to give our testimony.
That is a great question and as we talk to our business members
across the country, the number one concern that they all have—
Chairwoman BEATTY. Would you speak up a little bit, Mr.
Busby?
Mr. BUSBY. Thank you, again, for allowing us to have this testi-
mony.
As we talk to our members across the country, the number one
concern that they all have is access to capital. There was a survey
that was done that said that the average Black family had roughly
$400 in savings for an unexpected emergency, and those same
homeowners, many of them, are now business owners. So you are
placing the burden of having excess capital to get them through
tough times with very limited resources collectively.
The second thing, the access to capital, the cost of that capital
is extremely expensive. The average African American is paying
twice the rate of our White peers, and only about 33 percent of our
businesses actually have a line of credit.
Chairwoman BEATTY. I am going to have to interrupt you to go
to the other two, because I only have a few minutes left. So, I will
go to the next witness. Thank you.
Ms. Castillo?
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Actually, I will go to you, Ms. Ross, because my time is ticking
down.
Ms. ROSS. Yes. Can you repeat the question, Chairwoman
Beatty?
Chairwoman BEATTY. Yes. Do you believe that the racial wealth
gap impedes the success of minority- and women-owned busi-
nesses?
Ms. ROSS. It comes all back to education. And without the oppor-
tunities to educate minority- and women-owned businesses, it does
put us at a hindrance in terms of continuing to move forward. And
if we have the opportunities, we have definitely shown that we de-
serve to be at the table and be in the room; but without those op-
portunities, and for people not thinking that we should be, then
that continues to create the problems that we have.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you.
To all of the witnesses—and we will start with you, Ms.
Kerrigan, and then go backwards.
I am very proud that all of you talked about the disparities and
the challenges, and I was really pleased to hear you all mention
the small businesses, the gigs, the 1099, et cetera. Early on, I went
to the House Floor and advocated for those, and I would like to be-
lieve it had an impact on our second round of funding.
The question is: What would you say to corporate America and
to banks right now in this space we are in? People are really put-
ting in more value. Majority companies are coming to us with
money. Maybe some of it is guilt dollars. What would you say to
them to help put more African-American and other minority busi-
nesses into the hopper?
Ms. Kerrigan?
Ms. KERRIGAN. I would say to put your money where your mouth
is, generally, and to really make a concerted effort to outreach to
this community, and to look at the process by which you are out-
reaching and any type of the systems, the application process,
whatever, that you may have for accessing capital, potential loans,
potential dollars, and to simplify it as much as possible.
One size does not fit all, and you really have to meet the needs
of these entrepreneurs where they are, and a lot has to be sim-
plified, and understanding that they are not all the same busi-
nesses.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Okay. We will try you again, Ms. Castillo,
if you are unmuted. Is there anything in 10 seconds you would like
to add?
Ms. CASTILLO. Yes, pretty much, I totally agree with Ms.
Kerrigan. In our community, only $3.7 billion from PPP went to
our community, and the average loan was about $54,000, so I
would just put—
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you. I like that. I am going to end
with, put your money where your mouth is.
Don’t worry, to the other witnesses. We will have plenty of other
questions coming from my colleagues.
At this time, I would like to recognize the distinguished ranking
member of the subcommittee, Mrs. Wagner, for 5 minutes.
Mrs. WAGNER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
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Ms. Kerrigan, from your work with entrepreneurs and startups,
what sort of regulatory barriers—and you touched on this briefly—
have you experienced that have made it difficult to access capital
and financial services?
Ms. KERRIGAN. The biggest barrier right now is actually getting
clear, if you are talking about investment capital, is actually ac-
cessing and getting access to the investors. But when you are talk-
ing about—a lot of them look at equity and debt-based
crowdfunding, and they see it has great potential.
There are two things I think are holding them back. The first is
some of the red tape and a lot of the burden in terms of the first
forms, filling it out, what comes next.
And the second, which I found very interesting, and we are
learning more about, is this temporary relief that the SEC did.
Most of these businesses are looking for debt financing, and so, the
crowdfunding rules are treating all businesses the same, as one-
size-fits-all, and I think we have to look at this a little differently
and say, well, the information that the SEC needs or the inter-
mediaries have to collect, does it have to be as intense as, say, an
equity raise versus a debt raise?
And can we look at the structures and say, do you need to be a
corporate structure in order to access the finances as they do right
now or can they be an LLC or can they be sort of a sole proprietor
because they know they can be a bank loan?
But right now, obviously, Congresswoman, the climate is so dif-
ferent than it was pre-COVID-19. I don’t know if you are talking
about the PPP loan or Main Street lending but—
Mrs. WAGNER. Ms. Kerrigan, if I could interrupt you, in your tes-
timony you mentioned the idea of creating a public-private partner-
ship fund, and I am very interested in learning more about this co-
investment model and how it could provide increased access to cap-
ital for women- and minority-owned businesses. Could you go into
further detail about this fund? You also mentioned that the U.K.
has a co-investment model. If you have any specific data on the
success of the program for women- and minority-owned businesses,
I am very interested.
Ms. KERRIGAN. Yes, and I will follow up with more specific infor-
mation and data. I’m just beginning to talk to our members and
sort of the crowdfunding community about the existing way. It has
been very successful, so much so that they are increasing the fund.
Most startup ecosystem raises its money online now, because there
are tax credits, and U.K. policies do support investment
crowdfunding.
The whole notion of the public-private partnership is that the
Federal Government will, if a small business raises X amount,
come in and match that. But they will work with the existing plat-
form. So, the government is not picking winners and losers. They
are picking who the crowd believes, the investors believe is a busi-
ness that can make it.
And we do know that with crowdfunding in general, women en-
trepreneurs have more success at crowdfunding raises, and we do
know that there are many more minority businesses that are using
crowdfunding, going through their local community in order to keep
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those businesses in those communities and giving their customers
for the first shot at investing in their businesses.
Mrs. WAGNER. Okay. And let me interrupt you just in the inter-
est of time here. Ms. Castillo, and Ms. Kerrigan, but Ms. Castillo,
if you could go first, I was proud to introduce the bipartisan Cal-
culate PPP Forgiveness Act with my colleague, Congressman Lacy
Clay, as I mentioned in my opening statement. This bill would di-
rect the Small Business Administration to create or certify a PPP
loan forgiveness calculator that is free and accurate, so small busi-
nesses can more easily populate their loan forgiveness applications.
It would also help resolve tensions between lenders and small busi-
nesses over what payroll expenses should be covered, et cetera.
Would this benefit your members as they navigate forgiveness
applications, Ms. Castillo?
Ms. CASTILLO. Yes, I think that it would. I really think it would.
They do need quite a lot of education as well, but I do like what
you just proposed, yes.
Mrs. WAGNER. Ms. Kerrigan?
Ms. KERRIGAN. Yes, because it would promote certainty across
the financial—we are all using the same calculator, right? And I
think having it as simple so that businesses know what the govern-
ment is putting out there, and what will be forgivable. I think it
is very important.
Mrs. WAGNER. We are going to try to include it in the next pack-
age going forward. So, I thank you for your input.
Madam Chairwoman, I am out of time, so I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you very much.
The Chair now recognizes the distinguished Chair of the full Fi-
nancial Services Committee, Chairwoman Maxine Waters.
Chairwoman WATERS. Chairwoman Beatty, let me just say that
as I am sitting here watching you, I am thinking about how impor-
tant diversity and inclusion is. If it was not for diversity and inclu-
sion, I would not be sitting here with you in this very, very impor-
tant hearing. You would not be sitting here as the Chair of the
Subcommittee on Diversity and Inclusion. And we would not have
been here at a time when we have COVID-19, where we were able
to exercise some power in order to do everything that we could to
try and get resources out, liquidity into the agencies that should
have the kind of resources so that they could make the loans.
So, I am very appreciative for your work, and you were primed
for this task based on your work with the Office of Minority and
Women Inclusion (OMWI) and the way that you came to this Con-
gress, indicating your support for opening up this opportunity.
Now, we have been confronted with COVID-19 and PPP, and we
have learned an awful lot that we had not expected. First of all,
I want to thank those banks that participated and did it the right
way, but I want to tell you that some of the biggest banks in Amer-
ica literally opened up portals for their concierge clients early, and
they spent millions of dollars, maybe billions of dollars funding
those concierge clients, their big private clients. And somehow, in
the legislation for the CARES Act, it had opened up the oppor-
tunity for SBA loans that were normally for those businesses, 500
and under, to now be spread out to restaurants and hotels, et
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cetera, who had many locations and franchises, et cetera, and they
were able to get millions of dollars. That was not intended.
And so, we know about that, we have learned an awful lot about
that, and we have to shut that down, so that will not continue to
favor the high-income private clients of banks.
In addition to that, we learned an awful lot about what was
going on with our Minority Business Development Agency that was
created by an executive in 1969, for minority business development
agencies. It was supposed to be tasked to foster growth of minority-
owned businesses in America but it is at the whim of Presidents
and Secretaries of Commerce because it is not in the law.
I heard you when you talked about that, Mr. Busby. We are
going to take care of that because we want every opportunity for
our small businesses and our minority businesses, our women-
owned businesses to have access to capital, or we won’t survive. I
heard you when you talked about the 8(a) Set-Aside program. That
was a very successful program. Minorities had gotten involved with
it, and did well. But guess what? That got shut down because you
did too well. After you reached a certain level, they excluded you
from the program. We have to open up 8(a) Set-Aside all over
again.
I convened a lot of our CDFIs who did not have access to capital,
and learned that they were operating on at such different levels.
For example, you have some that had no liquidity. They were deal-
ing with some joint venture-type opportunities. We had some with
just a small amount of resources that were begging for more. But
that is under the Treasury Secretary, who has the opportunity to
fund through that CDFI Fund, and we are going to increase that
and open up more opportunities for CDFIs.
Also, we have been working for a long time with MDIs, and it
is very important for you to know that, because of Ms. Velazquez
and myself, we were able to get that $60 billion and target it so
that $10 billion of it went right to the MDIs, and to the CDFIs, and
to our credit unions and community banks.
It would not have happened had it not been minority women sit-
ting there. That is why opening up opportunity and diversity and
inclusion is so important everywhere, in the private sector, in the
government sector, everywhere. Unless you have people who not
only understand these issues, but have been the victims of these
issues, and see how wealth has not been able to be accumulated
in our communities, you will never get the opportunities to open
up.
So I am pleased that we were able to get right to Mr. Mnuchin,
and right to Mr. Powell, so that we were able to change some of
the ways that they were doing things. I won’t go into all of that
now, but we absolutely changed the way that the Main Street Fa-
cility was operating with the Federal Reserve. We absolutely were
able to get the $60 billion and direct more to the CDFIs.
So, I am so thankful for your work, Ms. Beatty. I am so thankful
for this hearing. I am so thankful for the witnesses who are telling
us how we can even do better, and I am looking forward to cor-
recting some things, but looking at the Fintechs to open up another
opportunity.
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I yield back the balance of my time, and I thank you for allowing
me this time.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you very much, Chairwoman
Waters.
Now, the Chair recognizes the gentleman from West Virginia’s
2nd District, Mr. Mooney.
Mr. MOONEY. I don’t have any further comments. Thank you.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
Now, it is my distinct honor to recognize the gentleman from
Missouri, Mr. Clay, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on
Housing, Community Development, and Insurance, for 5 minutes.
Mr. CLAY. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I thank you and
Ranking Member Wagner for conducting this most important hear-
ing, and let me thank the witnesses for their participation today.
The racial and gender wealth gap has been a persistent chal-
lenge for this country, and has increased over the past 50 years,
and limits the ability of women and minority would-be entre-
preneurs from starting new businesses. And according to a racial
wealth gap analysis by McKinsey & Company, African-American
and Latino families have approximately one-tenth the wealth of
White families. Startup businesses need capital. Unfortunately, mi-
norities are not as likely to have access to generational wealth and
personal assets as the funding source for new business formation
as a result of the wealth.
My question is to Ms. Castillo and Mr. Busby. What have your
members shared about how the lack of familial wealth affects the
startup of minority-owned businesses? We will start with Ms.
Castillo.
Ms. CASTILLO. In my community, as you know, I think they are
the most affected every time they go to a bank, just because we are
Latin. They don’t have the same facilities. They don’t have the
same advantages.
When I started my business, it took me quite a while to get a
loan. On our board of directors, we have several financial institu-
tions, and those financial institutions are very committed to our
community. They do have special programs, for example, JPMorgan
and Goldman Sachs and Wells Fargo do have special programs just
for us, and they certainly treat us more equally.
Mr. CLAY. Thank you for your response.
Mr. Busby, how has the lack of familial wealth affected the start-
up of minority-owned businesses?
Mr. BUSBY. Thank you, Representative Clay, for your question.
Again, if you ask any small business owner what their number
one concern is, they will say access to capital. But when you ask
a Black business owner, he or she will say,that the number one,
number two, and number three concerns are access to capital, not
just the access, but the affordability as well as the availability of
capital, to be able to start and sustain their businesses, and not
just through pandemics, but through normal business practices. It
is extremely difficult for Black businesses to be able to access the
capital.
And the reason that it is important is that we lost 450,000 Black-
owned businesses during this last 3 months, which means they all
have customers, clients, vendors, and employees. And for those ex-
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isting Black-owned businesses, we need to look at mergers, acquisi-
tions, and joint ventures, to be able to take advantage of those lost
businesses, to be able to merge those into our existing Black-owned
businesses.
At the U.S. Black Chamber, I have heard the conversation about
Fintech. We believe that the future of Black-owned businesses is
going to be with traditional Black and minority CDFIs. During this
pandemic, they told us to go to your existing bank to ensure that
you had a relationship to get the funds. If we don’t establish bank-
ing relationships now, then in the future, our businesses will be hit
twice as hard.
So for us, we are looking for capital, but also, we are looking for
financial institutions to ensure that they lower or remove the bar-
riers to credit and make sure that it is affordable for our busi-
nesses.
Mr. CLAY. Thank you so much for that. And I heard Representa-
tive Wagner’s example of a barber shop owner having to go to a
payday lender.
Ms. Ross, I believe, mentioned one of the instructions in the PPP
program was with not having loan activity with an institution.
Could any of the witnesses respond to that? Quickly, does anyone
want to talk about the challenges that the businesses had when
they went for the PPP?
Mr. BUSBY. Well, first if the name of the program was the Pay-
check Protection plan, and of the 2.6 million Black-owned busi-
nesses, only 2.5 million have no employees, that left roughly
100,000 Black-owned firms that would have even qualified to go
and get the additional funding that they needed, so just in the
name of the program, many of our businesses said that it did not
include them.
Second, you had to have a banking relationship with the lending
officer, and only 30 percent of our businesses had that. Third, if
they made the program available on a Friday—
Mr. CLAY. I am having a little trouble hearing you, Mr. Busby.
Chairwoman BEATTY. I have to remind the gentleman that his
time is up. I’m sorry.
Mr. CLAY. No problem. I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Tennessee’s 18th
District, Mr. Kustoff, for 5 minutes.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you. I want to thank the chairwoman for
convening today’s hearing, and the ranking member as well. I cer-
tainly appreciate all of the witnesses coming before us to testify
today.
Ms. Kerrigan, if I could, last I checked, there is around $130 bil-
lion left in the Paycheck Protection Program, and of course we
know that as of now, it goes through August 8th.
Last week, we had testifying before our committee Treasury Sec-
retary Mnuchin and Federal Reserve Chairman Powell. Secretary
Mnuchin, in his remarks, said that he wanted to repurpose the re-
maining money to assist what he characterized as especially hard-
hit businesses.
My question to you is, if you had 15 minutes directly with Sec-
retary Mnuchin or Fed Chairman Powell, what would you tell them
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19
about specific ways to use this leftover money to provide additional
relief, specifically to minority-owned businesses or women-owned
businesses.
Ms. KERRIGAN. I think as the program went on, and as there
were changes made and they began to onboard Fintechs and CDFIs
and the distribution channels, I think it had gotten better in terms
of reaching more women and minority entrepreneurs and self-em-
ployed businesses. And all of those types of businesses that didn’t
have those commercial relationships with their banks.
But I would say this, I think, in acknowledging and recognizing
that they do want to address the hardest hit and those businesses
that weren’t able to capitalize or use the Program the first time
around, they are on the right track.
And if we are repurposing the money, there does need to be some
of that money that will be sort of set aside for employers with 10
employees or less, that we do need to look at, yes, those industries
that have been hard hit and perhaps allow some of those busi-
nesses to come back for another PPP loan.
But I would also say that you need to broaden the uses of what
can be forgiven, the 75/25 rule that became 60/40, that was very
restrictive to many types of small businesses, those with high over-
head, with those self-employed people. So, we need to change that.
You need to include a lot more forgivable expenses, PPE, cloud
services, all of the things that businesses have had to expend
money on in order to survive COVID-19.
And then finally, I would say you really need to simplify the
whole process. And if you are going to start the Program and it is
going to be repurposed from the get-go, there has to be clear guid-
ance. It can’t continually change, because that confused so many
businesses.
So, a simple application process, reaching more businesses, dedi-
cated and targeted to the smallest of businesses, broad usage. And
I forget the last one. But I have already said it in my remarks—
oh, guidance. When you come out of the program, when you launch
out of it, the guidance has to be clear. It is very, very important.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you.
Ms. Ross, in your testimony you talked about the difficulty you
had trying to first apply for, and then ultimately you got the PPP
loan. How confusing did you find the guidance that was given to
you during the course of the process?
Ms. ROSS. Being a small business owner as things were evolving
and changing daily and trying to make sure that the health of our
employees was first important to us, but the guidance, as Karen
said, continued to change. And ultimately, the application wasn’t as
bad, but now looking at the forgiveness application, it is like 4
times or probably 8 times the length of the original application.
So with that, we have spent a lot of time, my management team
and I, in trying to make sure that we are following the guidelines
in terms of getting the most forgiven, but those keep changing, so
it is what we worked on a month ago has changed for today.
And I received an actual email last week that said we are still
not in a position to really go forward with the application on the
forgiveness and that we should have that in another month or so.
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So, it has taken a lot of time away from us, having to navigate
and pivot and change our organization. And being an automobile
dealership during a pandemic with a number of touch points of us
involved with vehicles and getting people to understand that has
been increasingly difficult from a compliance perspective.
It has just added to the uncertainty and the anxiety of making
sure that we are following all of the guidelines, in addition to
health and safety guidelines as well.
Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you so much. I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas’ Ninth Dis-
trict, Mr. Green, who is also the Chair of our Subcommittee on
Oversight and Investigations, for 5 minutes.
Mr. GREEN. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman. I would
like to associate myself with your initial comments. But I also
would like to thank the Chair of the Full Committee. It is an honor
to serve under her leadership. And I especially associate myself
with the comments that she made with reference to the Minority
Business Development Administration Act, something that I will be
working on with her.
I think a little bit of history is appropriate. In 1979, under a Re-
publican Administration, Richard Nixon, by way of Executive
Order 11458, created the Advisory Council for Minority Business
Enterprise.
And then, under a Democratic Administration, President Carter,
in 1979 the Office of Minority Business Enterprise became the Mi-
nority Business Development Agency. I am mentioning both of
these Administrations because it seems to me that what the chair-
woman has proposed, and I am having the honor of working with
her on, is something that should appeal across party lines, to both
Democrats and Republicans.
Because in fact, what this agency will do, if established as an
independent agency as opposed to an extension or arm of another
part of the government, if it is an independent agency, it will pro-
vide bootstraps in the form of grants.
Many of our small businesses were not able to take advantage
of the PPA because they were not prepared with the technical as-
sistance necessary to apply for these loans. They just didn’t get in
line fast enough.
And those who had lawyers, and accountants, and CPAs were in
line and ready to go from day one. As a matter of fact, truth be
told, they were ready before day one. They were waiting for day
one to arrive. And upon the arrival of day one, all that was done
was to hit send and your application was in, for all practical pur-
poses.
Well, what we would like to do is provide these small businesses
with the bootstraps necessary to compete when opportunities are
available. It is a wonderful thing to know that opportunities are
available, but it is an even better thing to be able to take advan-
tage of opportunities when they are available.
This Administration would provide just such an opportunity. It
would become a standalone entity, very similar to, but not the
same as the SBA. The SBA does marvelous work, and I salute the
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SBA. This entity would be given a similar opportunity as it relates
to providing what I call the bootstraps in the form of grants.
So today, let me ask the panelists, understanding what this
agency would metamorphose into, is this something that you be-
lieve you can support? I will start with the witnesses with the
Chambers. Let’s start with the Black Chamber, please. Is this
something that you can support?
Mr. BUSBY. Mr. Green, yes. This is Ron Busby with the U.S.
Black Chamber, and we were the 2016 advocate of the year for the
Minority Business Development Agency (MBDA). We believe in
their mission. We have seen the results of their ability to receive
additional funding in the second round of the stimulus package and
we saw what they were able to do with the funding. It has made
an impact.
They have awarded the U.S. Black Chambers and the U.S. His-
panic Chamber and other minority business organizations with the
resources and the funding that they need, to then turn around and
make our businesses have the resources that they need—
Mr. GREEN. Quickly, I will ask this of you, you hear people quite
frequently talk about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Are
these grants the kind of bootstraps that we need so that our busi-
nesses cannot only survive, but thrive?
Mr. BUSBY. Yes. And it is not just the capital, Representative, it
is also the technical assistance that our businesses need.
We need both the resources of funding, as well as administrative
and technical assistance to not just be able to get the bootstraps,
but we need the boots themselves, to make sure that we can walk
through the difficult and uphill battles that we are facing through-
out not just this pandemic, but life in general.
Mr. GREEN. Well said. Let me say again, well said, and move to
the Hispanic Chamber. Would you kindly express your concerns?
Could you support this legislation?
Ms. CASTILLO. There is a successful relationship with the MBDA
agency. We are very happy. We have been working with them for
the last 2 years, and we are very, very happy.
And yes, we do support your legislation.
Mr. GREEN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. You have been
very generous with the time. I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you so much. The gentleman yields
back.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Ohio’s 16th Dis-
trict, Mr. Gonzalez, for 5 minutes.
Mr GONZALEZ OF OHIO. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And
thank you, everybody, for your participation in today’s very impor-
tant hearing.
Ms. Castillo, I want to start with you. I am the son of a Latino
business entrepreneur,and on the PPP, you talked about the dif-
ficulty that our community had in accessing the loans. I guess I
have two questions.
Number one, is that still the case now that we have changed the
Program and extended it? And if it was and is, was that because
of the structure of the Program or because there was something
happening in the application process that was sort of weeding out
Hispanic business owners?
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Ms. CASTILLO. At the beginning, naturally our community didn’t
get that much, it really didn’t. Now, once you fix it, they get an-
other amount of like 54,000 loans, so it is better.
And I think the issue is that our businesses are very small busi-
nesses, as you know. It is a lot of having a line of credit, of having
even the education to go and apply. The process was complex. And
as you know, most of the PPP loans in the first year went to top
corporations, corporations with lawyers, corporations that have the
resources.
Our community just doesn’t have those kinds of assets. But I
must say, it is getting better. I think that our community has got-
ten almost 7-something-billion total. But on average, again, a small
average of like, $54,000, or $55,000
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. That is consistent with Mr. Busby and
what you said, right? And I think what this hearing has sort of
shined a light on is something we knew, which is that the PPP pro-
gram is not perfect. And I think also it shines a light on the fact
that it just didn’t hit our minority communities in a way that
maybe we would want. And so as we go forward, I think retooling
it or having a different program probably makes the most sense
frankly.
Ms. Ross, I want to transition to you. You have such an amazing
personal story and I thank you for sharing it. And one of the things
you highlighted is the difficulty that we have getting diversity in
the automotive space and entrepreneurship in general.
And I guess I would like to ask you, just sort of broadly speak-
ing, what do you think we could be doing a better job on as a soci-
ety but also congressionally to support women and minority entre-
preneurs who are taking that big risk?
Ms. ROSS. It goes back to what I said in my statement. But the
access to capital has historically limited minorities, and specifically
in the automobile business, due to the heavy investment that is
needed in order to become an automobile dealer.
And within our industry, there are a lot of generational families
who have been able to pass down their dealerships. And from an
African-American perspective, we have not had that.
For me to be the only female, African American, second-genera-
tion automobile dealer just speaks to that volume, where there are
hundreds of Caucasian women who would be able to be in that po-
sition. And I give kudos to NAMAD to starting an organization to
help the next generation to try to facilitate that from an earlier
perspective. But it does come back to the access to capital, just a
huge investment that is needed to become an automobile dealer.
And the manufacturers need to take the responsibility of assist-
ing, and widening, and broadening their programs that they are of-
fering, because there are a lot of individuals who are capable and
can perform to the level of nonminority dealers if given the oppor-
tunity.
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. Thank you.
And then, Ms. Kerrigan, with my final 40 seconds, are there any
statutory or regulatory barriers that you see that limit this access
to capital that we could remove either temporarily or in full as we
navigate the crisis?
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Ms. KERRIGAN. I do. I think we are big on equity and debt-based
crowdfunding, we lead the whole effort. We made that legal to
begin with. And I just think there is tremendous opportunity for
committees to support the businesses in those communities.
And thankfully, the SEC is addressing, I think some of the
rulemakings to lower the barriers, but there is more that Congress
can do as well, in terms of lifting it up in terms of the accredited
investors and making sure we treat debt and equity the same. And
I think that is going to have to come through congressional action
because most small businesses are looking for debt and not for eq-
uity.
And again, I think we are at the point where the community
wants to support these small businesses. And small businesses
definitely have the customers and the families who can support
them. We have a list of things I can share with you, Congressman.
And thank you for that question.
Mr. GONZALEZ OF OHIO. Thank you, and I yield back. Thank you,
Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida’s Fifth
District, Mr. Lawson, for 5 minutes.
Mr. LAWSON. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And I would like
to also thank the witnesses for appearing here today.
I have been working with minority businesses from the stand-
point of being in the insurance business. But also I think, Mr.
Busby, you might know about the publication called the Black
Pages. In fact, I have done it in this area for over 30 years.
One of the problems that I found, and maybe you can elaborate
on it to a certain extent, is that it has been a very difficult keeping
that publication going for 30 years, because we have a hard time
getting minority businesses to advertise.
Not only am I a member of the Black Chamber of Commerce, I
am also a member of the main Chamber of Commerce and I have
served on their board. I am saying that to say this, when we start-
ed having these problems and sometimes—Chairwoman Waters
might want to respond to this too—
I found out that those businesses, where if they were attorneys,
or consulting firms, and so forth that seemed to be more in the
mainstream of everything, they immediately applied for the PPP.
But when the people that I was concerned about might be calling
grocery stores, barbers and beauticians, and people of that na-
ture—I know Ms. Ross might have some concerns to add and I
don’t want to take up all of the time—I had a lot of difficulty in
trying to get them to even apply, because it seemed almost it was
that tier there. And so by the time they got ready to apply, they
said that all of the money was gone.
And I know right now there is about 100-some billion dollars still
in there. I want to ask Mr. Busby, how do you respond to that as
being over the Black Chamber of Commerce, do you experience
some of the same kind of results?
Mr. BUSBY. Sure. And that’s a great question. I would say that
we lost 450,000 businesses. I want to keep saying that, because we
have $130 billion left. Had that $130 billion been made available
and accessible to those 450,000 businesses, the majority of them
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would still be in business. The payroll protection plan when it came
out, again the name said payroll protection, so that meant to a
business owner that did not have full-time employees, they felt that
it was written for them.
The second piece, if you look through the pieces, in the legisla-
tion, the 700-plus pages, the words ‘‘Black’’ or ‘‘African American’’
were never listed. And so again, when our communities heard
about the stimulus package, they felt like it wasn’t necessarily for
them.
Third, when they said go to the bank, again the majority of our
business members across the country may know their teller, may
even know who cashes their check, have a checking account, a
debit card, but they didn’t have a lending relationship with the
bank and so they felt like they were displaced in the opportunity.
And then lastly, it was just application fatigue. So now, when
you go back to business owners and say, there is money still avail-
able, they are nervous, because they have now heard that the In-
ternal Revenue Service has placed additional funding—Internal
Revenue agents to go out to make sure that the small businesses
that may have gotten a couple of extra thousand dollars are now
being audited and are facing extra scrutiny.
And so many of them have said, hey, I think I have made it
through the most difficult times. We are getting ready to reopen
and so I have to think about the future as opposed to what has
happened in the last 3 months. We are trying to educate our busi-
nesses that there are funds still available, but it really is about
them understanding how to go about it, and making sure that the
banks and community CDFIs that they have relationships with un-
derstand it as well.
Mr. LAWSON. Okay. And thank you.
Madam Chairwoman, I just wanted to say, since you are here on
this call, how do we get this message out to them in language,
what Mr. Busby just talked about, to try to inform them, and I
know Ms. Ross might have some ideas, and I don’t want my time
to run out. But I am just going to cut it off, because there seems
to be a great deal of problems in communication.
Mr. BUSBY. It was really unclear coming out initially, who, how,
when, and where. And so for our community, it just took them a
few days longer. And during the course of those few days, they
heard that the funding was gone.
I think that as you discussed, there are great opportunities
through Black Pages, Black online, Black media, and Black news
to ensure that our businesses understand how, where, and what is
responsible for getting the additional dollars.
Mr. LAWSON. My time has run out. And I yield back, Madam
Chairwoman.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes the
gentleman from Wisconsin’s First District, Mr. Steil, for 5 minutes.
Mr. STEIL. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman. Thank
you for calling today’s hearing on a really important topic.
I want to build on what was just being discussed there, and
would like to go back to you, Mr. Busby. One of my good friends
was the President and CEO of the Milwaukee African American
Chamber of Commerce, Dr. Eve Hall. She now runs the Urban
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League in the City of Milwaukee. And I have spoken with her and
others.
And earlier, we were talking about capital formation, and Rep-
resentative Ann Wagner dove in there. And then later, you had
comments about boots and bootstraps, that I think is very topical.
Not only do you need access to the capital formation, but some-
times you need to have some knowledge and some mentorship.
And I know the African American Chamber of Commerce was
very involved in creating those types of relationships. Could you
just share what you think are some of the best practices, making
sure that we are getting information out, not only broadly, but in
particular in the African-American community as well?
Mr. BUSBY. Great question. I do know Dr. Eve Hall. She is a
graduate of Florida A&M University, which is also my alma mater.
When you speak to her again, tell her I said hello.
I think the Urban League, as well as the U.S. Black Chamber
and other local institutions play a critical role. We are the voice of
Black business here at the U.S. Black Chamber. So we make sure
that we try to develop great relationships with our local commu-
nities and local business owners, but we still have challenges.
In many communities, they are facing challenges that don’t reach
Washington, D.C. And so, when they hear about what is happening
here in the Nation’s Capital, they don’t understand the impact that
it has on their local business and or local community.
So, it is our role through our local chambers to really be the
mouthpiece for our local communities here in Washington, as well
as from Washington back to our local Black and Latin businesses
that operate across the country.
But I think we just have to be transparent. When we were ask-
ing for data early on about who was getting the loans, no one was
able to share that. When we were yelling at the top of our lungs
that we were going to lose 35 to 40 percent of our Black-owned
businesses, no one heard that. And then the data came out that we
had actually lost 41 percent. And now, Congress and other folks
are saying, ‘‘Wow, we didn’t see it coming.’’
It is about having a realistic conversation as opposed to having
one that is based on emotion. And so we are saying, we need trans-
parency early on, from contracts, to loans, as well as opportunities.
And then the third piece, I just want to make sure that I get an
opportunity to say, when we are talking about government, as well
as corporate America now saying, hey, we want to do more busi-
ness with Black-owned businesses, we have to make sure that
there is a certification to ensure that these businesses are actually
Black-owned, so that corporate America can actually certify and
say, yes, I am supporting a Black-owned business.
Because right now, we all fall under the umbrella of minority
business. And we are not just minority businesses, we are Black
businesses, we are Hispanic, Asian, and other, but we are not all
Hispanic. And right now, when we are facing a pandemic that has
a trifecta on the Black community, we need to be isolated out in
reference to our support and as referenced to the dollars that are
being spent from both corporate America, as well as the Federal
Government.
Thank you.
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Mr. STEIL. Thank you very much. I appreciate your passion on
the topic. Thank you for sharing your insight.
I want to shift gears slightly and ask Ms. Kerrigan a question.
One of the things I think we have seen during the broader pan-
demic is the ability of us to leverage in the technology, to make
sure that we are getting access to people who may not have an
easy time getting access to bank loans. And as we are thinking
about kind of online notaries and some of the other legislative re-
forms that we can do, I would ask you to comment on what you
see as the role of leveraging some of the financial technology serv-
ices that are available to make sure that we are getting access to
those who may not traditionally have a seat at the table.
Ms. KERRIGAN. Oh, it is critical. I think it is so critical. And
thankfully, but unfortunately at the end of the first tranche of
those PPP funds, the Fintechs were brought on board. And once
they were, I think they made a pretty big difference in terms of
these 21 lenders that did a significant amount of lending.
So, it makes a big difference because they have the automation,
they have the artificial intelligence (AI), they have actually be-
tween them all of the customer lists that they were able to out-
reach to them.
So yes, we need to have the modern systems. As we like to say
to our business owners and entrepreneurs, you have to meet cus-
tomers where they are. We know they are using social media, they
are using cloud services, they are using platforms. This is a plat-
form-based economy. And in fact, the pandemic accelerated the
movement to this platform economy. So that is why Fintech and
technology is going to become even more important, so the govern-
ment does have to recognize that and not be an afterthought. This
has to be done at the beginning of any program.
Mr. STEIL. Thank you very much, Ms. Kerrigan.
I appreciate you holding today’s hearing, Madam Chairwoman.
And I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you so much. The Chair now recog-
nizes the gentlewoman from Massachusetts Seventh District, Ms.
Pressley, for 5 minutes.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you, Chairwoman Beatty and Chairwoman
Waters. I do believe that these are old fights, but it seems that we
might be on the precipice of ushering in a new moment, and it has
everything to do with the vigilance and the leadership of both of
you. So thank you for your leadership, and thank you to all of our
witnesses for joining us today.
While this crisis is unprecedented, the disparities revealed in our
economic system and subsequent Federal response are unfortu-
nately very familiar. From the Homestead Act to New Deal pro-
grams in the GI Bill, Black Americans have historically been
locked out of large-scale government intervention and investment.
We must not repeat exclusionary policies of past Federal responses.
So, what does that mean? That means requiring the disclosure
of racial data to better inform our allocation of resources for every-
thing from testing and treatment to small business relief. And I ap-
preciate very much seeing data on who actually received PPP
loans, but the data we need is on who didn’t receive PPP funding,
who was denied and why, and why was it late?
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The National Bureau of Economic Research found that 41 per-
cent of Black businesses have shuttered since the pandemic began.
From the onset, experts estimated that up to 95 percent of Black
women business owners would be left out of the Program.
Mr. Busby, could you speak specifically to the challenges faced
by Black businesses, and that PPP funding and access to it was
conditioned on access to banking?
Mr. BUSBY. Yes. Again, when we first heard about the payroll
protection plan, it was discussed on a Friday afternoon. By that
Monday morning, the majority of the dollars had been already pre-
sented to 50 publicly traded firms in the amount of $250 billion.
And so, many Black firms did not find out about the opportunity
until the 11th hour.
We also know that again, as I stated earlier, it was based on
having a banking relationship.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Preexisting.
Mr. BUSBY. A lending program and many of our businesses just
did not have a loan currently because of the cost, as well as the
inability to be able to get credit from an existing bank, so we did
not.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you. So, just reiterating that, since the ma-
jority of minority-, immigrant-, and women-owned businesses are
micro in size—beauty salons, barbershops, bodegas, they are the
backbone of our local economies. Yet, we just heard from struggling
owners throughout the district based on the very point that you un-
derscored there.
So, the relief was nowhere to be found. And this includes
Murray’s Kitchen in Dorchester, which applied for PPP assistance
back in May and has yet to hear back. Organizations in my district
like BECMA, Commonwealth Kitchen, Amplify, Latinx, JPNDC,
EforAll, and so many others have stepped up to provide businesses
with support, but ultimately this is about Federal Government re-
lief.
As I said, these are old fights in a new moment. I hope this new
moment is about new action. I introduced, in partnership with Sen-
ator Kamala Harris, the Saving Our Street (SOS)Act, to provide
micro business owners with direct grants, not loans, of up to
$250,000. We have to be intentional. And this bill requires 75 per-
cent of the micro business assistance fund set aside for minority-
and women-owned businesses.
Mr. Busby how does the SOS Act correct some of the challenges
of previous relief efforts? And why is it so critical to provide relief
in the form of grants instead of loans?
Mr. BUSBY. Well, we heard from Black Americans that the
United States just wrote nearly a $2 trillion check in response to
a stimulus that was needed from a pandemic.
Black Americans have been saying we have been facing a pan-
demic for hundreds of years, and we want to have a conversation,
and not necessarily just about reparations, but about equity. And
so, as we would talk about a stimulus package that is geared to-
wards micro businesses, the U.S. Black Chamber is definitely in
favor of that.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you.
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Mr. BUSBY. We want to make sure that the dollars go to the
businesses as well as the sectors that need it the most: 40 percent
of all Black business revenue comes from 5 industries, and those
5 industries were the industries that were hit the hardest, and
many of them were the same types of businesses that you have
there in your district—restaurants, beauty salons, nightclubs, and
social media types of places where you would normally go to gather
are now closed. And many of those businesses don’t see the future,
but they definitely need the income as well as the grants to be able
to have sustainability.
Ms. PRESSLEY. Thank you, Mr. Busby. Again, it is just clear that
it is not a one-size-fits-all approach. We have to be targeting and
very precise in the same way that we have codified dispropor-
tionate hurt, we can codify through law making justice and equity,
and so I thank you for endorsing the legislation and we look for-
ward to continuing to advocate for it, and to see it passed. Thank
you.
Mr. BUSBY. Thank you.
Ms. PRESSLEY. And I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes the
gentlewoman from North Carolina’s 12th District, Ms. Adams, for
5 minutes.
Ms. ADAMS. Thank you, Chairwoman Beatty, and thank you to
Chairwoman Waters as well. You both have done an absolutely
outstanding job. This is an issue that we have been dealing with
here in my district.
Let me ask my first question. The Health and Economic Recovery
Omnibus Emergency Solutions (HEROES) Act provided $1 billion
in emergency appropriations to the CDFI Fund and established a
further set aside of either 25 percent of the remaining PPP funds
or $10 billion for community financial institutions, including CDFIs
and MDIs.
As some of you have outlined, their limitations to the PPP to
that program for our CDFIs and MDIs mainly that these banks or
financial institutions are limiting their ability to lend based on
their existing deposits or reserves. For example, in my State, one
of our leading MDIs had to cap their PPP loans at $14 million.
However, if this MDI and CDFI were able to receive a direct infu-
sion of funding, they could continue to provide the assistance that
was needed.
I have introduced H.R. 7121 to address this issue. It would pro-
vide $5 billion to CDFI funds and set aside $2 billion for minority
lending institutions. So Ms. Kerrigan and Mr. Busby, could you
please highlight the significance of greater CDFI and MDI partici-
pation in the PPP? And how could it impact minority- and women-
owned businesses?
Ms. KERRIGAN. I will go first.
It’s critical. We saw that once CDFIs were on board, additional
dollars were provided, and the difference that they made in getting
money to those underserved businesses, to minority entrepreneurs.
So, it is a distribution channel that works. And again, CDFI it
should not have been an afterthought. They should have been there
from the beginning just like Fintechs and some of the other lenders
to make sure we have the broadest distribution channels possible.
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So, it’s very, very critical. And if we are going to do another
round, another tranche or a phase for a package, they definitely
should be included and funds should be re-upped because they
made a huge difference.
Ms. ADAMS. Great. Thank you. In response to the global financial
crisis and the Great Recession of 2008, Congress established the
State Small Business Credit Initiative (SSBCI) in 2010 to provide
$1.5 billion in funding for State and territory programs that sup-
port access to credit for small businesses. This temporary pro-
gram—and it was administered by the Treasury Department—ex-
pired in 2017.
It provided awards to 47 States, 5 Territories, Washington, D.C.,
municipalities, and 3 States. Unfortunately, the expiration of the
program has left a void in the marketplace for affordable small
business loans.
Madam Chairwoman, I would like to enter two letters into the
record from the North Carolina community banks.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Ms. ADAMS. Thank you.
Ms. Castillo, Mr. Busby, how could reauthorization of the SSBCI
help minority-owned businesses during this pandemic? And do your
organizations support the State Small Business Credit Initiative
Renewal Act?
Mr. BUSBY. I will go first. This is Ron Busby, U.S. Black Cham-
ber. I will say in our 2020 Blackprint, we have somewhat outlined
and addressed your bill specifically. I will also say that we believe
that as many avenues that we can put access to capital in our
States and local communities, we are in favor of that.
We feel like that as many options as we have available to us, es-
pecially our CDFIs and our Black-owned banks, we know that they
make 70 percent of their loans to Black homeowners and to Black
businesses in local Black communities. That is the way we are
going to have to have sustainability—
Ms. ADAMS. We have 45 seconds. So, I will have the other speak-
er respond.
Ms. CASTILLO. I pretty much agree with what Mr. Busby said. I
totally echo his words. I think putting more money on the CDFIs
would really, really help. Thank you.
Ms. ADAMS. Thank you.
Madam Chairwoman, I am going to yield back. Thank you.
Chairwoman BEATTY. The gentlewoman yields back.
I now recognize the gentlewoman from Pennsylvania’s 4th Dis-
trict, Ms. Dean, for 5 minutes.
Ms. DEAN. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Can you hear me?
Chairwoman BEATTY. Yes. We can hear you.
Ms. DEAN. I apologize. I have had some connection issues, but I
am delighted to be here. I thank you Chairwoman Beatty, and I
want to thank the entire panel of witnesses for joining us virtually
today to talk about access and equity for minority- and women-
owned businesses, specifically for helping inform us on how we
move forward to support the American people as best as we pos-
sibly can, not just during a pandemic and an economic crisis, but
for the long haul.
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Chairwoman Beatty, since you have allowed me to be a part of
your subcommittee, I have taken my responsibility very seriously,
and I have had the the chance to travel around my district, meet-
ing with minority- and women-owned businesses. And I heard
about some of the systemic barriers, pre-pandemic. But in light of
the pandemic, I have had the chance to follow up.
Just yesterday, I visited four different minority-owned businesses
and women-owned businesses in my area. And some of the common
themes that you hear beginning with when they were starting their
businesses, not during a pandemic, but they had good robust busi-
ness plans, and the difficulty of getting adequate startup capital
was one recurring theme. A second recurring theme during the
pandemic has been access to capital as well. I know we have dis-
cussed a lot about PPP.
In particular, I spoke yesterday with a woman who heads the
Norristown Chamber, Kym Ramsey; she has her own business. And
she talked about mentoring others, particularly during this pan-
demic in terms of business plans, in terms of applications for relief,
but also the serious lack of capital support.
I am going to ask a broad question for any member of the panel,
I was wondering if you could speak to these often recognized sys-
temic barriers, some are systemic, some may be anecdotal but
many are systemic, and what actions we should take beyond PPP,
what actions we should take to help ensure access to support sys-
tems?
And I would open that to anyone who would care to answer that.
Ms. CASTILLO. Thank you for the question, Congresswoman
Dean. I think that minority- and women-owned businesses, and I
am certified as both, need to be included in the management, dis-
tribution, and brand location of any funds that Congress allocates
to the stimulus. Really get us involved. Give us a seat at the table.
I don’t think the problem will be solved until Congress really en-
gages us, engages Mr. Busby, engages the USHCC, and the
NMSDC. You have to have either an advisory council or just some
kind of council that is there with you, sharing the issues with you
and helping you to write the right legislation, just to make sure it
really does work in the communities.
Ms. DEAN. I appreciate that. One other issue that came up often
as I visited businesses during COVID, that has been exacerbated,
is a bias by financial institutions in lending to women, and in lend-
ing to minority businesses and enterprises.
Can you speak to that, and how do we break down those biases?
Mr. BUSBY. Thank you. I will answer that. I think again the ac-
cess to capital is a concern by all minority-owned, particularly
Black-owned businesses. The fastest growing sector of business
owners in the country is Black women. And when you ask Black
women their concerns, they will say, it is possible to get credit, yes,
but they pay an exorbitant price for that credit.
So, it is more than just having monies go into banks and banks
then make loans. It needs to also be affordable so that the same
business owner who is a White man, is paying the same rate based
upon the same credit score, and the same criteria as any minority,
particularly Black-, or Brown-, or women-owned businesses. We
have to remove the barriers so that all of us have access to it. It
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is already difficult enough to run a business, and when you don’t
have the funding to grow to get through difficult times, it makes
it that much more difficult.
Ms. DEAN. Now with your permission, Madam Chairwoman, I
will pitch two bills that I have initiated. One is called the Restore
America’s Main Street Act, which would be direct liquidity to busi-
nesses not based on payroll so that the business itself could under-
stand and use that money where it is needed.
And then the other is my NRSRO bill, which I am very happy
for the cosponsorship of many on this committee to get access to
other credit institutions.
I see my time has expired. Thank you very much, Madam Chair-
woman, and thank you to our witnesses.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you so much.
The Chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from Texas’ 29th
District, Ms. Garcia, for 5 minutes.
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And I
too want to thank you for bringing a topic to the table that is so
important, particularly during this time of crisis, in knowing that
so many small businesses are hurting and continue to hurt. And
as most of our witnesses have said, unless they get help, they may
not survive.
I first want to associate myself with the history and comments
from my colleague, my good friend from Houston, Congressman
Green. I think making the MBDA an independent agency is a step
in the right direction. And obviously, it is important to get those
bootstraps, but I think the boot is also important.
And so, I want to start with Mr. Busby. I thought that was a
very creative way of illustrating what the dilemma is. Tell me, why
does it matter that we get all of those technical resources and the
help that small business needs, not just the capital but the assist-
ance that can be provided in some of these centers?
Mr. BUSBY. Currently, there are over 2.6 million unemployed
Black people in America today.
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Right.
Mr. BUSBY. That is the bad news. The good news is there are 2.6
million African-American-owned businesses today. If those 2.6 mil-
lion businesses have access to capital, access to opportunity, then
they hire Black people within their community. If that is done
across the country, we don’t have an unemployment conversation
for Black people in America. That is a concern.
As you grow the wealth of Black people, as consumers, we are
the best and biggest consumer in the country. As we earn dollars,
as we grow our businesses, we spend our dollars within our local
and State businesses, that is only going to boost the economy for
America. So when you invest in Black-owned businesses, you are
investing in ultimately—
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Right. But I wanted to get to the illustra-
tion of the boot, what should the boot contain in terms of technical
services to make sure that those businesses can thrive and grow,
because then, obviously, the community grows with it and employ-
ment increases.
Mr. BUSBY. I think technical assistance is very important. Again,
if you look at the majority of Black-owned businesses, they don’t
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have continuing education, thus the majority of Black-owned busi-
nesses are doing less than $100,000. But those businesses that are
doing continuing education, online training, they are all are doing
above $1 million.
And so, we have to invest in the opportunities for our businesses
to have technical assistance and that is coming out of the gate.
That is not waiting until they have already established themselves,
that is from pre-starting your business all the way through the ex-
istence of that business. That is how they will continue to be able
to grow and have sustainability. That looks like—
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Thank you. And Ms. Castillo, do you have
anything to add to that and what that boot looks like?
Ms. CASTILLO. Thank you. Yes, I do. Actually, we know that tech-
nology is here and is here to stay forever. And I totally agree with
what Mr. Busby says. I think our community certainly needs that
education because most of the businesses, even if it is a little mom
and pop, like a restaurant, they don’t have computers, they don’t
how to use assistance. So I am totally, totally in agreement that
our community does need the—
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. They also would be accountants and law-
yers. I remember as a lawyer helping someone with their—
Ms. CASTILLO. Yes. I think center of excellence to educate them
in how to use the computer, and how to complete an application,
and how to really run the business. That is crucial for our commu-
nity. Because we know—
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Ms. Kerrigan, did you have anything to
add?
Ms. KERRIGAN. I will say that for future startup activity and for
entrepreneurship in general, that technical information is so criti-
cally important. Again, not only for existing businesses, because
the world is changing every day, and there is social media, and it
is this platform-based economy, you are going to need those types
of modern support and that ongoing support in order to navigate,
not only the pandemic, but also sort of this ever-changing economy.
So, it is very, very vital. And again, young entrepreneurs particu-
larly, and I think across-the-board and across demographics say
that access to technical information is not access to capital, access
to technical information is the number one thing that they need in
order to start their businesses. They don’t know where to go to. So
yes, it is vital, very important.
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. Thank you. I only have one second left,
and I would say to Ms. Ross, congratulations, and you go girl.
Ms. ROSS. Thank you.
Ms. GARCIA OF TEXAS. With that, I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you very much.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Minnesota’s Third
Congressional District, Mr. Phillips, for 5 minutes.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I thank our
witnesses. I think it is fair to say that the pandemic will surely
precipitate the failure of far too many businesses.
Mr. Busby already noted, I think, that 450,000 have already
closed and more are sure to follow suit. But prospectively, it is also
going to present an opportunity for new businesses to be created
once the pandemic passes.
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But just like so many of my colleagues have shared, including
our witnesses, the hurdles to securing capital are terribly high, and
often too high for women and minority entrepreneurs. And that is
the focus of my forthcoming efforts and also my questions.
Starting with Ms. Castillo and Mr. Busby, I want to ask first
about inspiration and then capitalization. First, how do we inspire?
And are there any programs on which you are working or you are
familiar with to inspire young people to consider entrepreneurship
and starting their own small businesses? I would love to hear your
thoughts on that and save some time for how we are going to cap-
italize them.
Ms. CASTILLO. Thank you so much, Representative, for the ques-
tion. Definitely, young kids now are very entrepreneurial. I think
that technology has really helped to make them more entrepre-
neurial. And it’s the reason why they can work from anywhere.
They have these great ideas. And I really think that technology
has really triggered that in those individuals. And also, because the
market is so tough, jobs are difficult to get. And the pandemic cer-
tainly has accelerated that increase.
So I think that young people are more motivated than ever to
really start their own businesses, because especially if they are
technologically savvy, because they can run a business from a very
tiny cell phone. They pretty much just have an idea and run a
business.
Mr. PHILLIPS. And Mr. Busby, are you seeing the same things
among your members and perhaps future generations?
Mr. BUSBY. Yes, what we have done is we have partnered with
the Historically Black Colleges and Universities to create Cham-
bers of Commerce on the University campuses in the future, so
that they can get an entrepreneurial experience and education
firsthand before they leave college.
Often, many young people say, I want to start a business, at 19-
or 20-years-old, but they don’t have the experience or the exposure.
They end up messing up their credit or their parents’ credit, they
end up messing their name and an opportunity.
We want those young people to partner with a mentor in an in-
dustry very similar to the idea or the concept that they have so
they have a better chance of doing two things, long-term sustain-
ability. What we also see is that many of our successful businesses
don’t have a succession plan.
So you will find businesses that have been in business for 10, 20,
or 30 years and then fall off the map because they haven’t had any-
one to pass it off to.
And so we are asking many of our young people not to nec-
essarily start a new business but to go find an existing business
where you can bring your talents and skills that you currently are
just coming out of college with, bring that to some of our existing
businesses and allow them to have sustainability, as well as allow
you to be able to get into a business earlier and have a longer term
of success.
Mr. PHILLIPS. I love that. And as the witnesses might know, and
my colleagues, I authored a bill called the New Business Preserva-
tion Act, which would form a $1.5 billion allocation through the
Treasury Department, to partner with States throughout the coun-
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try to set up especially investment funds focused on women-owned
and minority-owned setups with a one to one matching component
in which venture capitalists can be matched with these funds to
provide capital to startups.
Is that the kind of program and initiative that you, Ms. Castillo
and Mr. Busby in particular, feel is necessary to inspire that kind
of new startup environment.
Ms. CASTILLO. Absolutely. I think that is a great idea. I think
any fund, any way to get financing when you are starting your
business is absolutely crucial. I support your idea 100 percent.
Mr. PHILLIPS. Wonderful. And Mr. Busby?
Mr. BUSBY. Yes, I believe in the public-private partnership. What
we are asking for from our corporate partners is if you have $100
million in assets, to take 15 percent of your assets that are sitting
in a bank, and invest those assets in a Black-owned bank, which
then turns around and invests in Black-owned businesses.
And lastly as a president of the local chamber, the United States
Black Chamber, invest in us, because we then turn and give tech-
nical assistance, and the access to capital, as well as the con-
tracting relationship opportunity of many our businesses which are
Black-owned.
Mr. PHILLIPS. I love that, because money without mentorship is
like an engine without fuel.
I thank you all for your time.
I yield back, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes the
gentleman from Illinois’ Fourth District, Mr. Garcia, for 5 minutes.
Mr. GARCIA OF ILLINOIS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for al-
lowing me to participate in such an important hearing, and I thank
Ranking Member Wagner as well.
I represent a working-class immigrant district in Chicago. Small
businesses are everywhere in my community. Before the pandemic,
if you just drove down two of the main retail corridors, you would
find restaurants, hardware stores, and supermarkets owned by im-
migrants. But when the pandemic passes, I am not sure what will
still be there.
Businesses shut down temporarily in March, but more and more
are announcing that they will be closed for good. We need to act
fast to fix that. First of all, our businesses need revenue, they need
customers. The people in my community are worried about how
they can pay the rent and pay their medical bills.
If the Senate doesn’t pass the HEROES Act, and Congress
doesn’t do more to ensure that people can stay in their homes and
meet their needs, then no amount of loans can save these busi-
nesses.
Small and minority-owned businesses also need access to credit.
Before the PPP program, there were not many SBA lenders who
operated in my community. After PPP was launched, it was not
easy for additional lenders to get approval to make loans under the
Program.
We have talked a lot about how hard it was for minority-owned
businesses to get credit in the early days of PPP, and in my com-
munity, this is a reason why.
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Ms. Castillo, do you think the small, minority-owned lending in-
stitutions have built a better relationship with the Small Business
Administration through the PPP program or has the implementa-
tion of the Program added new hurdles?
Ms. CASTILLO. I think they have built a good relationship lately.
I think when the program was implemented, they didn’t. But I
think likely, yes.
Mr. GARCIA OF ILLINOIS. Okay. Good for you.
SBA released data about those who would access loans from the
PPP program. Unfortunately, the main revelation from this release
is that the SBA needs to do a better job of collecting data on this
program. How can we act in Congress and in our communities to
encourage better data collection by the SBA so that we can under-
stand who benefited from these programs?
Ms. Kerrigan?
Ms. KERRIGAN. Data is critical. And it starts at the very begin-
ning in terms of collecting that data in the application process. I
know it was voluntary. It wasn’t required. I don’t know what the
legal hurdles are in terms of making that required information, but
we need to have that data in order to see who benefited and where
we go moving forward.
Data drives decision-making. And I think that would help Con-
gress do what they need to do to target the program better. So we
are all about data disclosure and transparency, particularly when
it comes to taxpayer dollars. So we fully support anything that we
can do to get more data so that you all can make your decisions
in a much more informed way.
Mr. GARCIA OF ILLINOIS. Any suggestions about what Congress
can do to help produce that data on the part of SBA?
Ms. KERRIGAN. I think the more that you ask, hopefully, the
more that you will get. In terms of any demographic data or any-
thing relative to race, there are things that were voluntary, right?
So, I think it would have to be an Act of Congress that makes
that mandatory, as part of legislation.
Again, that is something we would have to look into it but I
think a lot of it was voluntary and not mandatory and, that being
the case, you just do not have the data that you need at this point.
So, it probably would have to be some type of Act of Congress to
make that happen.
Mr. GARCIA OF ILLINOIS. Okay. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from the 45th Dis-
trict of California, Ms. Porter, for 5 minutes.
Ms. PORTER. Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman.
As the only single mom in Congress with young kids, and as a
person who is working from home as much as I can, I know that
single moms are being asked to do the impossible right now. This
isn’t new, but the pandemic is certainly making it so much worse.
Ms. Kerrigan, pre-COVID-19, what were the margins like for a
normal small business, say a bakery owned and managed by a sin-
gle mom who has two or three employees? What were those profit
margins like?
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Ms. KERRIGAN. Thin, thin, thin. I mean, really on the day-to-day,
very thin.
Ms. PORTER. That was back in normal times.
Ms. KERRIGAN. That is right.
Ms. PORTER. What would happen if this bakery saw the price of
flour double?
Ms. KERRIGAN. It would be an enormous impact, not only in
terms of prices going up but demand going down.
Ms. PORTER. What if the price of eggs were to triple? What would
that do to the profit margins?
Ms. KERRIGAN. It would probably wipe many of them out. Sugar,
any of the inputs that you are using in that bakery, you are really
carefully monitoring those expenses, right?
Ms. PORTER. What about the cost of child care quadrupling, the
child care that allows that bakery owner to come to work every day
and bake? What does that do to the business?
Ms. KERRIGAN. It would probably kill the business because it
would be impossible to do that, very, very difficult.
Ms. PORTER. And that is what is happening, by the way, when
people have to go from paying, for example, for after-school child
care to full-time child care. It causes one of the inputs of your busi-
ness, which is the ability of the owner/operator or the employees
to go to work, to essentially quadruple.
And what we are seeing right now is all of that is happening at
the same time that the number of customers is dropping, and that
is going to push these businesses into the red.
Do you think that this child care crisis is a crisis for our small
business community?
Ms. KERRIGAN. Oh, absolutely, and the Small Business Round-
table on Facebook did a survey, The State of Small Business Re-
port, and that was one of the biggest pressure points that they
found was just sort of the enormous pressure that was being put
on entrepreneurs, particularly women entrepreneurs, to juggle
both. So absolutely, it is a crisis for working women and entre-
preneurs, both.
Ms. PORTER. And working parents, but it falls particularly hard
on those businesses with the thinnest margins which often are
women-owned and minority-owned companies who have micro busi-
nesses and those very thin margins, just like they can’t absorb a
price shock of 4 times the cost of inputs like flour, they can’t afford
what is in essence a 4 times price shock in the cost of their own
ability to contribute to that business, to put in the sweat equity by
having to find child care.
Do women business owners have easy access to capital to help
them get through these tough times? Are you aware of anyone who
makes loans to women business owners or to working parent busi-
ness owners so that they can pay for the cost of child care?
Ms. KERRIGAN. No. The women entrepreneurs and business own-
ers who have been able to get a PPP loan, have, done so because
of the relationship they may have had established with the bank,
and so they had a commercial relationship which was very few, and
then through Fintech lenders, but if you are asking specifically and
directly for child care, then no.
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Ms. PORTER. So there is no assistance, no program. Can you use
PPP funds to pay for child care for your employees, to provide that,
for example, to them?
Ms. KERRIGAN. No, it is not a forgivable expense.
Ms. PORTER. Do you think the economy can fully recover if work-
ing parents, and particularly single parents, are trying to be full-
time parents, assisting with emergency distance learning and work
full time in their businesses to deal with all of the adjustments and
struggles and changes that coronavirus survives? Can we have a
full economic recovery in that kind of environment?
Ms. KERRIGAN. It is very difficult. It is very difficult to juggle,
too. Not everything can be done out of the home in terms of a busi-
ness. But even if you are in the home, working in the business, you
have a home-based business and you have also the responsibility
of educating your kids, if they are not going back to school, it would
be extremely, extremely difficult, absolutely.
No, it would be very difficult to get back to full economic recov-
ery, back to ‘‘normal’’ with that scenario.
Ms. PORTER. So would you agree that we ought to be thinking
about supports for child care and helping businesses deal with
these and would employees deal with this cost of child care as part
of how we think about economic recovery, they are hand-in-glove
issues?
Ms. KERRIGAN. I do. Just as we looked at PPP in terms of forgiv-
able loans for, say, both payroll and healthcare expenses, yes, I
think we need to have some very creative solutions because you are
right. We cannot get back to full economic recovery without having
that addressed. I agree with you, and I look forward to maybe
working with you to see what we can do to make that happen.
Ms. PORTER. Thank you so much.
And I yield back.
Chairwoman BEATTY. Thank you so much.
I would like to thank all of the Members for their questions.
And certainly, I would like to thank all of the witnesses for their
testimony—Mr. Busby, Ms. Castillo, Ms. Kerrigan, and Ms. Ross.
Without objection, I am submitting the following statements for
the record: the Asian-American/Pacific Islander Chamber of Com-
merce and Entrepreneurship; Clever Girl Finance; Funds for Hu-
manity; Include Ventures; and the National Bankers Association.
Without objection, it is so ordered.
The Chair notes that some Members may have additional ques-
tions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in writing.
Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legis-
lative days for Members to submit written questions to these wit-
nesses and to place their responses in the record. Also, without ob-
jection, Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous
materials to the Chair for inclusion in the record.
This hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 2:10 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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APPENDIX
July 9, 2020
(39)
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File and source
- File
- CHRG-116hhrg43195.pdf
- Size
- 12,497,271 bytes
- SHA-256
- 2745944fbfd8083fb95c3e4def08c3dc6e3f495c776bc1bc0a61d4fc923e0295
- Our copy
- CHRG-116hhrg43195.pdf
- Original
- www.govinfo.gov