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A Voice for Small Business: How the SBA Office of Advocacy Is Cutting Red Tape (House Small Business Committee hearing, January 7, 2026)

Summary

The printed transcript of a hearing titled A Voice for Small Business: How the SBA Office of Advocacy Is Cutting Red Tape, conducted January 7, 2026 before the House Committee on Small Business, 119th Congress (Small Business Committee Document Number 119–027). Opening statements are by Chairman Roger Williams and Ranking Member Nydia Velázquez. The single witness is Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel of the Office of Advocacy of the U.S. Small Business Administration, whose prepared statement and answers to questions from Hon. Velázquez, Hon. Goodlander and Hon. Schmidt are printed in the appendix. Additional material includes submissions from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, an NFIB letter, Associated Builders and Contractors and several small business owners.

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Cite this document

“A Voice for Small Business: How the SBA Office of Advocacy Is Cutting Red Tape (House Small Business Committee hearing, January 7, 2026).” Original at www.govinfo.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/source-documents/a-voice-for-small-business-how-the-sba-office-of-advocacy-is-cutting-r-4527adf848/, SHA-256 9df538ead2eb4af7da5ec2efd86d3c1889737d678fc35616810af7d9bf11aa66.

Full text

                                                                       A VOICE FOR SMALL BUSINESS: HOW THE SBA
                                                                       OFFICE OF ADVOCACY IS CUTTING RED TAPE


                                                                                                      HEARING
                                                                                                             BEFORE THE


                                                                            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                                                                   UNITED STATES
                                                                             HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
                                                                                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS
                                                                                                           SECOND SESSION


                                                                                                            HEARING HELD
                                                                                                           JANUARY 7, 2026




                                                                                    Small Business Committee Document Number 119–027
                                                                                      Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov




                                                                                               U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                                                                        62–510                             WASHINGTON : 2026




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                                                                                        HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                                                                                             ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                                                                                                  PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                                                                                                  DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                                                                                                   BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                                                                                                      JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                                                                                                    MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                                                                                                    NICK LALOTA, New York
                                                                                                  BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota
                                                                                                     TONY WIED, Wisconsin
                                                                                               ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania
                                                                                                      BRIAN JACK, Georgia
                                                                                                  TROY DOWNING, Montana
                                                                                        KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands
                                                                                                   DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas
                                                                                                   JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida
                                                                                         NYDIA VELÁZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                                                                                               MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                                                                                                HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                                                                                               LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey
                                                                                                   GIL CISNEROS, California
                                                                                                KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota
                                                                                                GEORGE LATIMER, New York
                                                                                                    DEREK TRAN, California
                                                                                                 LATEEFAH SIMON, California
                                                                                               JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland
                                                                                                 HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey
                                                                                            MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire

                                                                                                LAUREN HOLMES, Majority Staff Director
                                                                                                 MELISSA JUNG, Minority Staff Director




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                                                                                                                CONTENTS
                                                                                                             OPENING STATEMENTS
                                                                                                                                                                                             Page
                                                                  Hon. Roger Williams ................................................................................................         1
                                                                  Hon. Nydia Velázquez .............................................................................................          2

                                                                                                                          WITNESS
                                                                  Hon. Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel, Office of Advocacy, U.S. Small Busi-
                                                                   ness Administration, Washington, DC ...............................................................                         4

                                                                                                                         APPENDIX
                                                                  Prepared Statement:
                                                                      Hon. Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel, Office of Advocacy, U.S. Small
                                                                        Business Administration, Washington, DC ................................................                              34
                                                                  Questions and Answers for the Record:
                                                                      Questions from Hon. Velázquez to Hon. Mulligan and Answers from
                                                                        Hon. Mulligan ...............................................................................................        179
                                                                      Questions from Hon. Goodlander to Hon. Mulligan and Answers from
                                                                        Hon. Mulligan ...............................................................................................        208
                                                                      Question from Hon. Schmidt to Hon. Mulligan and Answer from Hon.
                                                                        Mulligan .........................................................................................................   210
                                                                  Additional Material for the Record:
                                                                      U.S. Chamber of Commerce .............................................................................                 212
                                                                      NFIB Letter ......................................................................................................     214
                                                                      Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC) ...................................................                          217
                                                                      Dahlia Rizk, Buckle Me Baby Coats ...............................................................                      219
                                                                      Shakia Williams, Cyrenity Sips Winery .........................................................                        221
                                                                      Lynne Fletcher O’Brien, Line in the Sand .....................................................                         223
                                                                      Orleatha Smith, Sip Herbals ...........................................................................                225
                                                                      Jill Osur, Teneral Cellars, Inc. ........................................................................              226
                                                                      Eric Henry, TS Designs, Inc. ...........................................................................               228
                                                                      Cassie Abel, Wild Rye ......................................................................................           230
                                                                      Editorial Board .................................................................................................      232
                                                                      Advocacy Screenshot ........................................................................................           235




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                                                                  A VOICE FOR SMALL BUSINESS: HOW THE
                                                                   SBA OFFICE OF ADVOCACY IS CUTTING
                                                                   RED TAPE


                                                                                               WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 7, 2026

                                                                                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                                                                                        COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,
                                                                                                                     Washington, DC.
                                                                    The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:01 a.m., in Room
                                                                  2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chair-
                                                                  man of the Committee] presiding.
                                                                    Present: Representatives Williams, Meuser, Van Duyne, Ellzey,
                                                                  Alford, LaLota, Finstad, Downing, King-Hinds, Schmidt, Patronis,
                                                                  Velázquez, McGarvey, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros, Morrison, Lati-
                                                                  mer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, and Goodlander.
                                                                    Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to recognize
                                                                  Mrs. McIver from the great State of New Jersey to lead us in the
                                                                  pledge and the prayer. Following the pledge and prayer, we will
                                                                  have a moment of silence.
                                                                    All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of Amer-
                                                                  ica, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God,
                                                                  indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
                                                                    Mrs. MCIVER. Dear God, thank you for another day. Thank you
                                                                  for allowing us to see 2026.
                                                                    I ask that you place Your hands on each of us, each Member of
                                                                  this Committee, all of our staffers, and help us lead in a better way
                                                                  for the American people, and most importantly, for small busi-
                                                                  nesses, as that is our duty on this Committee.
                                                                    Thank you for breath, for good health. We pray for our col-
                                                                  leagues. We pray for those that did not have the opportunity to
                                                                  come back with us in session in 2026. And we pray for those that
                                                                  are still trying to recover and get through to be here with us.
                                                                    In Jesus’ name, amen.
                                                                    Chairman WILLIAMS. Would you remain standing, please?
                                                                    We mourn the passage of our colleague, Representative Doug
                                                                  LaMalfa. He represented California’s First Congressional District
                                                                  for 13 years. He was a strong advocate for rural America. I know
                                                                  many of us are proud to call him a friend. Please join me for a mo-
                                                                  ment of silence to honor his memory.
                                                                    [Moment of silence.]
                                                                    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
                                                                    Good morning, everyone.
                                                                    I now call the Committee on Small Business to order.
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                                                                                                                      2

                                                                     Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of
                                                                  the Committee at any time.
                                                                     I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
                                                                     I want to say welcome and thank you for being here for today’s
                                                                  hearing, ‘‘A Voice for Small Business: How the SBA Office of Advo-
                                                                  cacy is Cutting Red Tape.’’
                                                                     I want to thank our witness, Dr. Casey Mulligan, the chief coun-
                                                                  sel of SBA’s Office of Advocacy, for appearing before us today.
                                                                     This hearing comes at a critical time for small businesses nation-
                                                                  wide. Main street endured inflation, burdensome regulations, and
                                                                  rising interest rates at the hands of the Biden-Harris administra-
                                                                  tion.
                                                                     It is estimated that the total cost of regulations is now over $3
                                                                  trillion a year, equal to 12 percent of the entire U.S. economy. To
                                                                  put this in perspective, the cost of regulations in the U.S. exceeds
                                                                  the entire economy of the United Kingdom.
                                                                     To make matters worse, the Biden administration’s regulatory
                                                                  onslaught cost over $1.8 trillion due to new regulations.
                                                                     Now more than ever, we must ensure that the federal govern-
                                                                  ment doesn’t make it harder for our job creators to thrive, and that
                                                                  is where the SBA Office of Advocacy comes in.
                                                                     So the Office of Advocacy is an independent voice for small busi-
                                                                  nesses within the federal government and fights against burden-
                                                                  some regulations. Under the Regulatory Flexibility Act, or the
                                                                  RFA, federal agencies are statutorily required to ensure that regu-
                                                                  lations have a limited impact on small business.
                                                                     However, last Congress, this Committee investigated agency
                                                                  compliance, and simply put, agencies skirt the law and end up im-
                                                                  plementing a mountain of crippling regulations on Main Street
                                                                  America.
                                                                     Despite their best efforts, the Office of Advocacy lacks the legisla-
                                                                  tive authority to hold the agencies accountable for ignoring the
                                                                  RFA, and that must change.
                                                                     Under President Trump, the Office of Advocacy has been pivotal
                                                                  in repealing burdensome, misguided regulations. This includes
                                                                  their work with FinCEN to roll back the burdensome Beneficial
                                                                  Ownership Information reporting rule.
                                                                     I am happy that so many of my colleagues are dedicated to fight-
                                                                  ing crippling regulations, including those who have joined my bill,
                                                                  H.R. 796, the 1071 Repeal to Protect Small Business Lending Act,
                                                                  which was reported favorably out of the Committee on Financial
                                                                  Services.
                                                                     So I genuinely hope that hearings like this will show how impor-
                                                                  tant it is to remove regulatory barriers that stifle American entre-
                                                                  preneurship, which should have bipartisan support. I look forward
                                                                  to discussing how we can strengthen the Office of Advocacy’s role
                                                                  and how Congress can give it the tools it needs to continue advo-
                                                                  cating for main street.
                                                                     I want to thank you, Dr. Mulligan, again for being here today.
                                                                     And, with that, I yield to my friend and distinguished Ranking
                                                                  Member from New York, Ms. Velázquez.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Good morning.
                                                                     Thank you, Chairman Williams.
                                                                     Welcome to the Committee, Dr. Mulligan.




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                                                                     The Office of Advocacy plays a unique role within the federal
                                                                  government, serving as the independent voice of small businesses
                                                                  and promoting the concerns of small firms before both federal and
                                                                  state policymakers.
                                                                     Advocacy’s important work, when done in a thorough and inde-
                                                                  pendent manner, as Congress intended, can help prevent well-
                                                                  meaning rules from unintentionally harming small competitors.
                                                                     Small businesses need a strong advocate right now. Over the
                                                                  past year, small firms have lost government contracts, experienced
                                                                  supply chain kills, and endured a constant state of confusion amid
                                                                  President Trump’s tariffs, rising prices, and an avalanche of policy
                                                                  changes. Manufacturing jobs have fallen every month since April
                                                                  2025, extending Trump’s losing streak that cost 58,000 jobs.
                                                                     I would like to enter into the record a Wall Street Journal edi-
                                                                  torial entitled ‘‘Where Are Those Manufacturing Jobs?’’ The op-ed
                                                                  contends that tariffs are the primary factor leading to job losses
                                                                  and the broader decline in the economy.
                                                                     That is why it is important to have an independent office that
                                                                  will serve as a strong and credible voice for small businesses within
                                                                  the administration, not one that will echo whatever the administra-
                                                                  tion wants to hear.
                                                                     I have concerns over the growing lack of independence between
                                                                  the Office of Advocacy and SBA, particularly in light of SBA initia-
                                                                  tives that task Advocacy with cutting $100 billion in regulations
                                                                  and setting up a deregulatory strike force. That is not the role of
                                                                  an independent office, but one more akin to a political arm of the
                                                                  administration.
                                                                     This administration does not fully understand the long-term cost
                                                                  of rolling back regulations in pursuit of short-term gains. It is im-
                                                                  portant to understand the full picture. Regulations can benefit
                                                                  small businesses, and the unchecked removal of regulations can in-
                                                                  crease uncertainty.
                                                                     We have heard testimony time and time again that smart, well-
                                                                  crafted regulations provide clear rules of the road for small busi-
                                                                  nesses, offering certainty and ensuring that they can compete on
                                                                  a level playing field. Smart, well-crafted regulations promote inno-
                                                                  vation, especially in the energy and manufacturing sectors.
                                                                     With that said, I understand certain regulations can be onerous
                                                                  and difficult for small employers to comply with, but deregulation
                                                                  is not the answer. The chainsaw approach will roll back important
                                                                  safeguards and cause uncertainty for small firms.
                                                                     Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
                                                                     I will now introduce our witness.
                                                                     Our witness today is Dr. Casey Mulligan. Dr. Mulligan is the
                                                                  chief counsel of the Office of Advocacy at the U.S. Small Business
                                                                  Administration in Washington, D.C. Dr. Mulligan is responsible for
                                                                  representing the independent voice of small businesses before fed-
                                                                  eral agencies, Congress, and the White House, and brings a deep
                                                                  background in economic research.
                                                                     Prior to work at the SBA, Dr. Mulligan served as the chief econo-
                                                                  mist on the White House Council of Economic Advisers from 2018
                                                                  to 2019, where he provided economic analysis on federal regulatory
                                                                  initiatives, healthcare, labor markets, and tax policies.




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                                                                    Dr. Mulligan earned a bachelor of arts from Harvard University
                                                                  and a Ph.D. in economics from the University of Chicago.
                                                                    I am looking forward to our meaningful conversation today.
                                                                    And are you a golfer? You got a mulligan.
                                                                    Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes, sir, a couple times on the first tee.
                                                                    Chairman WILLIAMS. I got you. Okay.
                                                                    So before I recognize the witness, I would like to remind you that
                                                                  your oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. If you see
                                                                  the light turn red in front of you, it means your 5 minutes has con-
                                                                  cluded and you should wrap up your testimony. If you don’t and
                                                                  keep going, you will hear this, okay?
                                                                    So with that, I now recognize you—we are glad to have you here,
                                                                  Doctor—for your 5-minute opening remarks.
                                                                  STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CASEY MULLIGAN, CHIEF
                                                                   COUNSEL, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION OFFICE
                                                                   OF ADVOCACY
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member
                                                                  Velázquez, and Members of the Committee. I am honored to dis-
                                                                  cuss Advocacy’s role in cutting red tape for small businesses. My
                                                                  testimony does not necessarily reflect the views of the administra-
                                                                  tion or the SBA.
                                                                     The Biden administration finalized 12,000 rules that would cost
                                                                  almost $6 trillion—with a T. Against that backdrop, President
                                                                  Trump was elected to stop the, quote, ‘‘ever-expanding morass of
                                                                  complicated federal regulation,’’ close quote. He directed agencies to
                                                                  identify regulations that impose undue burdens on small busi-
                                                                  nesses.
                                                                     Advocacy is well-positioned to help agencies follow that direction.
                                                                  During my nomination hearing, I committed to meet small busi-
                                                                  nesses where they are. I have done so, together with our regional
                                                                  advocates who gather small business perspectives nationwide and
                                                                  bring them to policy discussions here in Washington.
                                                                     For years, small businesses burdened by regulations remained si-
                                                                  lent, fearing retaliation. Now they tell Advocacy that this adminis-
                                                                  tration is the first to listen and understand. One even said Advo-
                                                                  cacy, quote, ‘‘quite literally saved Christmas,’’ close quote.
                                                                     We also help cut foreign regulation. When Canada blocked a U.S.
                                                                  firewood manufacturer’s exports, we coordinated with USDA, State,
                                                                  and Congress to resolve it. Shipments resumed, making it Amer-
                                                                  ica’s only exporter of that type of firewood.
                                                                     Agencies and the White House offices have increasingly come to
                                                                  Advocacy for input on regulatory policy. The office has flagged ap-
                                                                  proximately 300 regulatory issues for this administration where de-
                                                                  regulatory action would help small businesses.
                                                                     Many of these rules are giving large organizations an artificial
                                                                  advantage over smaller ones. Take the Outpatient Prospective Pay-
                                                                  ment System that pays hospitals more for the same services than
                                                                  it pays independent physicians.
                                                                     Small businesses also flagged the proposed OSHA Heat rule. It
                                                                  would impose sweeping one-size-fits-all and often absurd require-
                                                                  ments on workplaces where heat is above certain temperatures.
                                                                     During a meeting with Advocacy, an Arizona watermelon farmer
                                                                  understood that the rule would require shade structures even




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                                                                  though harvesting occurs at night, in the dark, where there is no
                                                                  sun to be shaded.
                                                                     In contrast, well-designed deregulation increases competition and
                                                                  productivity. President Trump’s first term was a case in point. Pre-
                                                                  scription drug prices fell for the first time in decades. Deregulation
                                                                  sharply reduced internet access prices. The RFA’s competition
                                                                  channel is a reason for both of these changes.
                                                                     Another indicator of agencies’ unprecedented engagement with
                                                                  Advocacy is compliance with the RFA’s agenda-sharing require-
                                                                  ment under 5 U.S.C. Section 602. With only one or two exceptions,
                                                                  agencies in the prior administration completely failed to comply.
                                                                     In contrast, during my first 5 months as chief counsel, more than
                                                                  60 agencies have sought Advocacy input on their regulatory agen-
                                                                  das. This is an increase in compliance of at least 3,000 percent.
                                                                     While regulators are quick to sanction businesses that violate
                                                                  their requirements, they too often fail to follow the rules that Con-
                                                                  gress set for them.
                                                                     A frequent practice has been to unlawfully certify important
                                                                  rules as supposedly not having a significant economic impact on a
                                                                  substantial number of small entities. Such certifications are a path-
                                                                  way to capricious enforcement actions against small entities, and
                                                                  they are also obstacles to oversight.
                                                                     My recent report, ‘‘Unlawful Disregard for Small Business Regu-
                                                                  latory Burdens,’’ examines thousands of certifications. In Orwellian
                                                                  fashion, 65 percent of the major rules from the Biden administra-
                                                                  tion were nonetheless said to lack significant effects on small enti-
                                                                  ties or otherwise not require considering those effects. Small busi-
                                                                  nesses were saddled with costs between 200 and 600 billion dollars
                                                                  without acknowledgement of the magnitude.
                                                                     The report identifies genres of certification ‘‘fiction’’—and that’s
                                                                  what it is—including rules that acknowledge heavy paperwork bur-
                                                                  dens but certify anyway, rules that threaten entire business cat-
                                                                  egories through product bans, and rules with detailed cost esti-
                                                                  mates that are ignored for RFA purposes.
                                                                     The report is not merely a critique of past process failures. It is
                                                                  a practical roadmap for finding and fixing red tape that is already
                                                                  on the books.
                                                                     To that end, Advocacy has published a ‘‘most wanted’’ roster of
                                                                  regulations notorious for their unnecessary burdens on small busi-
                                                                  nesses.
                                                                     Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As Chief Counsel
                                                                  for Advocacy, I will continue to listen and work toward better pol-
                                                                  icy for all small businesses.
                                                                     I would be happy to answer any questions.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. That is perfect.
                                                                     And we will now move to the Member questions under the 5-
                                                                  minute rule. I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, the Office of Advocacy is intended to operate inde-
                                                                  pendently from the SBA, yet its statute requires the SBA Adminis-
                                                                  trator to provide Advocacy with office space, equipment, commu-
                                                                  nication facilities, and other support.
                                                                     So the question is, how do you navigate this statutory require-
                                                                  ment to receive necessary support from the SBA while ensuring




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                                                                  that Advocacy maintains its independent voice in analyzing and ad-
                                                                  vocating on behalf of small business?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     My testimony and my reports have documented that the red tape
                                                                  problem is massive. And one office is not enough. And President
                                                                  Trump has a number of offices really making great contributions,
                                                                  the Office of Management and Budget and the National Economic
                                                                  Council—and my landlord, you might say, the SBA, is another one.
                                                                  They are very much—the Administrator is hearing from small busi-
                                                                  nesses, hears about these red tape problems, and really is a great
                                                                  partner. And I welcome great partners whenever I can get them.
                                                                     In terms of setting the direction for the office, that comes from
                                                                  me. I have the only hiring authority. I mean, Congress is very clear
                                                                  that the Administrator does not need to consent or approve my
                                                                  hires.
                                                                     And, of course, especially in my office, where we don’t have ma-
                                                                  chines and things like that, the people are everything. So the hir-
                                                                  ing decisions are really crucial for putting together a great team to
                                                                  advocate for small businesses.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. As we said today, the Office of Advocacy
                                                                  was created to be the voice for small businesses in the federal gov-
                                                                  ernment.
                                                                     Can you discuss how Advocacy is uniquely positioned to hear di-
                                                                  rectly from small business owners, and specifically what concrete
                                                                  steps your office has taken since President Trump took office to ex-
                                                                  pand outreach, gather meaningful feedback, and ensure small busi-
                                                                  ness concerns are effectively represented in federal policymaking?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I mentioned a number of regulatory partners
                                                                  in the administration. One of the unique things Advocacy has is its
                                                                  outreach. A significant fraction of my staff is not in Washington.
                                                                  They don’t have an office or a desk here. Every day they are out
                                                                  listening to the small businesses.
                                                                     And one of the things that we did, I believe we set a record, with
                                                                  no close second place, in filling the regional advocate positions,
                                                                  making sure there was somebody in place there. And we have put
                                                                  together quite a training program for them, and they are very well-
                                                                  integrated with what we are doing here in Washington.
                                                                     So that outreach is crucial to the whole mission of Advocacy and
                                                                  really to having good government here.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. This Committee has sounded the alarm
                                                                  on many of the burdensome regulations from the Biden-Harris ad-
                                                                  ministration. Regulations like the 1071 rule, Beneficial Ownership
                                                                  reporting requirements, and the independent contractor rule added
                                                                  unnecessary burdens and costs to Main Street America, and Advo-
                                                                  cacy has taken proactive steps to fight back against many of these
                                                                  regulations.
                                                                     So my question is, can you tell us about those efforts and how
                                                                  Advocacy will continue to identify and remove burdensome regula-
                                                                  tions?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     The first step always is listening to the small businesses, and
                                                                  they raise with us every one of those rules that you mentioned. I
                                                                  suppose you have heard from your constituents about them as well.




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                                                                     And the next step is we communicate with the agencies who
                                                                  are—we don’t make the rules at Advocacy. There are other agen-
                                                                  cies that make them. We communicate with them and let them
                                                                  know what we have heard.
                                                                     One thing that has been really a blessing in this administration
                                                                  is often before I can do that, they are coming to Advocacy and say-
                                                                  ing, the different Cabinet agencies: Hey, what are you hearing from
                                                                  small businesses? How can we do better with our regulations?
                                                                     And so a number of agencies, including some that you men-
                                                                  tioned, really approached Advocacy. And we were ready, based on
                                                                  our outreach, to let them know what small businesses are experi-
                                                                  encing.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. Let me go quickly to my last question.
                                                                     The Regulatory Flexibility Act is supposed to provide critical pro-
                                                                  tection for small business, and last Congress the Committee’s in-
                                                                  vestigation found that agencies often skirt requirements and enact
                                                                  costly regulations to the detriment of small businesses.
                                                                     So, quickly, what factors limit Advocacy’s ability to ensure agen-
                                                                  cies are complying fully?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Well, I suppose in the prior administration that
                                                                  the administration itself wasn’t very supportive. And President
                                                                  Trump has been very supportive of what we are trying to do, and
                                                                  that is a big reason why we had the 3,000 percent increase in com-
                                                                  pliance.
                                                                     If you want something more robust, when President Trump is no
                                                                  longer our President, I think some statutes, like the ones you men-
                                                                  tioned, the PROVE IT Act, I think would be helpful.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, thank you for that.
                                                                     My time is up, and I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5
                                                                  minutes of questions.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, is the Office of Advocacy an independent office?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. It is the Office of Advocacy. And we refer to
                                                                  ourselves——
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Is it independent? Just say yes or no.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. The word ‘‘independent’’ is not in the statutes.
                                                                  We call ourselves an independent voice in the executive branch for
                                                                  small business.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Do you circulate to the Office of Management
                                                                  and Budget, White House, or Small Business Administration for
                                                                  clearance of your testimony?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. No. They get it the same time that you guys
                                                                  get it.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Congress intended that the chief counsel have
                                                                  a great deal of latitude and not be a yes man for the agency.
                                                                     Prior to being confirmed, were you working as a senior adviser
                                                                  on economics to the SBA Administrator, reporting to her chief of
                                                                  staff, yes or no?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I don’t remember the title, but, yes, I did work
                                                                  in a role——
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Okay. Thank you.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN.—in her side of the office, yes.




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                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. In my view, this is a direct conflict of interest
                                                                  for a nominee to an office which is statutorily required to be inde-
                                                                  pendent of the SBA.
                                                                     Moving forward, will you commit to representing the views and
                                                                  interests of small businesses even when those views directly con-
                                                                  flict with or oppose actions taken by the Trump administration, yes
                                                                  or no?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I already do that.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I am sorry?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I already do that, yes.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. In December, the Wall Street Journal edi-
                                                                  torial board warned that tariffs are contributing to manufacturing
                                                                  job losses, 58,000 jobs since January.
                                                                     Have you conveyed these concerns to the White House? And
                                                                  what response have you received?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I have so many dealings with the White House, I don’t know how
                                                                  to summarize them in this short time. Let me——
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. But you don’t recall? You know, everyone is
                                                                  discussing——
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I recall so many things.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ.—tariffs and the impact——
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I recall dozens of things. I don’t have time to—
                                                                  let me tell you one story.
                                                                     So during the shutdown——
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. No, no, no, no. I just want to hear if you have
                                                                  conveyed——
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Okay. Because the U.S. Chamber of Com-
                                                                  merce believes broad-based tariffs raise prices for consumers and
                                                                  businesses and are especially a big problem for small businesses
                                                                  that do not have many resources to understand them.
                                                                     Given the negative impact tariffs are having on small businesses,
                                                                  why hasn’t Advocacy taken a more visible role in pushing back
                                                                  against these policies?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     My office, under my leadership, has achieved a 3,000 percent in-
                                                                  crease in compliance. And I understand that——
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I am not discussing compliance. I am asking
                                                                  you a question about tariffs.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I am answering your question, with all due re-
                                                                  spect.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Okay.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I am answering your question.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Okay.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I work with the agencies. I need to persuade
                                                                  them. I cannot make any rules. I cannot change any rates. I cannot
                                                                  do any of that stuff. I need to be persuasive. And I think my meth-
                                                                  ods have been very effective, as you can see from the compliance
                                                                  changes.
                                                                     I understand that you are recommending some different methods
                                                                  to persuade. Those aren’t my methods, and that is not what I am
                                                                  doing.




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                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Okay. So, Chief Counsel, in your book ‘‘You’re
                                                                  Hired!’’ you state that tariffs are taxes.
                                                                     Do you believe that tariffs are taxes, yes or no?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Tariffs are a revenue source. The President
                                                                  calls them external revenue as opposed to internal revenue. And
                                                                  his policy—and I was there in Milwaukee in the summer of 2024,
                                                                  helping him get that to be on the platform.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Sir, I asked you a yes-or-no answer——
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. It is a revenue source.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ.—based on what you wrote in your own book.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. The platform is different than the policies that
                                                                  we had in the first Trump administration.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. We are discussing the impact of tariffs on
                                                                  small businesses and consumers. You stated in your book that tar-
                                                                  iffs are taxes.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. President Trump’s policy——
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. And now you are providing a different inter-
                                                                  pretation.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. No, it is not a different interpretation. It is a
                                                                  different policy.
                                                                     President Trump’s policy—and it is very clearly stated in the
                                                                  platform, anyone can read it right now, the Republican platform—
                                                                  is to reduce internal revenue and replace it with external revenue.
                                                                     And that has been his policy. That is a different policy than the
                                                                  first administration. And it has different effects, because it is a dif-
                                                                  ferent policy.
                                                                     We know that small businesses are very burdened by internal
                                                                  revenue, and that is part of President Trump’s policy to relieve
                                                                  them from that burden.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. I think you are changing your tune, based on
                                                                  the fact that you are working for the administration. That is not
                                                                  what you put into this book.
                                                                     I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri for
                                                                  5 minutes.
                                                                     Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member, for
                                                                  holding this.
                                                                     Mr. Mulligan, would you like to respond to the Ranking Member,
                                                                  anything you would like to say after that last comment?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question and that oppor-
                                                                  tunity.
                                                                     Policy needs to be analyzed carefully. I have done that for my en-
                                                                  tire career. I am not a young man. I have been doing that a long
                                                                  time.
                                                                     And the policies may have the same label but different things.
                                                                  There are different policies. And policies in the Trump two admin-
                                                                  istration, I analyzed the Trump two policies.
                                                                     And the policies that we had in the platform in Milwaukee are
                                                                  not the same policies as before, and they need a different analysis.
                                                                  It would be dishonest to do it any other way.
                                                                     Mr. ALFORD. Very good.
                                                                     As you know, this Committee really stands as a staunch advocate
                                                                  for Main Street America under the leadership of our Chairman.




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                                                                  That is what this has been about since I have been on this Com-
                                                                  mittee.
                                                                     I think all of us up here are firmly committed to make sure that
                                                                  Main Street America is fairly, justly supported, that we help small
                                                                  businesses start and grow. If we do not maintain our champion at-
                                                                  titude for main street interests, we risk losing the small businesses
                                                                  that are really integral to the fabric of America.
                                                                     The last 4 years, small businesses have been under attack from
                                                                  an administration determined to crush main street under the boot
                                                                  of big government. In the previous administration, federal agencies
                                                                  finalized over 1,000 regulations, costing taxpayers a whopping $1.8
                                                                  trillion in compliance. That is not a small number, $1.8 trillion,
                                                                  and this is the same as the entire federal discretionary budget for
                                                                  fiscal year 2023.
                                                                     It is unacceptable that federal agencies can put this burden on
                                                                  the taxpayers of this country. And that is why the taxpayers spoke
                                                                  when they elected Donald J. Trump, who appointed Administrator
                                                                  Loeffler to take the SBA in a new direction.
                                                                     In just the first 100 days, reforms from the SBA Office of Advo-
                                                                  cacy have saved small businesses more than $48 billion in regu-
                                                                  latory cost. Thank you. Thank you for that.
                                                                     And since taking office, the President has saved over $111 billion
                                                                  in regulatory cost. That is a savings of about $325 per American,
                                                                  money that instead of being wasted in useless compliance to sup-
                                                                  port bureaucratic bloat, will stay in the pockets of Americans.
                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, the Advocacy Office does exist as the voice of small
                                                                  businesses to make sure that any bureaucrats in the Beltway must
                                                                  consider main street when creating regulations.
                                                                     What current regulations are you hearing about from small busi-
                                                                  nesses across the country that really need attention the most?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     There are so many, as you mentioned, getting into the thou-
                                                                  sands.
                                                                     Mr. ALFORD. Give me your top three.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. We have a ‘‘most wanted’’ list that we put on
                                                                  our website. The OSHA Heat rule that I mentioned in my testi-
                                                                  mony is in there. The requirements for nursing home staffing is an-
                                                                  other one that is in there.
                                                                     The filing of quarterly payroll forms is another one on our ‘‘most
                                                                  wanted’’ list. It could be annual is something we should look into,
                                                                  making it annual instead of quarterly.
                                                                     Mr. ALFORD. I am also on the Appropriations Committee Sub-
                                                                  committee for FSGG, and I know the Office of Advocacy requested
                                                                  an additional $4 million. This is not an Appropriations hearing, I
                                                                  understand that, but that could not be included in the House mark
                                                                  this go-around.
                                                                     Can you please speak to what Advocacy would be able to do for
                                                                  the taxpayer with additional funding? And we have 40 seconds.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     We are a small office. There are thousands of regulations. And
                                                                  making sure that we follow through, and not just in identifying,
                                                                  but follow through in removing those regulations that need to be
                                                                  removed, reform the ones that need to be reformed, it would be




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                                                                  helpful to have additional staff than just the few dozen that we
                                                                  have.
                                                                     Mr. ALFORD. I would like to have a continued conversation with
                                                                  you and Dave Joyce, our Subcommittee Chair, on this. Let’s make
                                                                  that happen.
                                                                     Thank you so much for your service, for looking out for Main
                                                                  Street America.
                                                                     And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from the great State of Kentucky
                                                                  for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                     I just want to point out one thing quickly. When we are talking
                                                                  about rules and regulations, the first Trump administration issued
                                                                  1,313 rules and regulations. The Biden administration issued 1,167
                                                                  rules and regulations, less than Trump one.
                                                                     I am very interested in making sure that our small businesses
                                                                  don’t have a regulatory burden. I just want us to be honest about
                                                                  the data and the numbers when we are talking about them.
                                                                     So, Dr. Mulligan, one thing I want to talk with you about is in
                                                                  your written testimony you use the words ‘‘regulation’’ and ‘‘regu-
                                                                  latory’’ 55 times. You never once mention the word ‘‘tariff.’’ Zero
                                                                  times do you talk about tariff.
                                                                     That is frustrating to me, because right now if you want to come
                                                                  to Louisville, Kentucky, and walk around and talk to small busi-
                                                                  ness owners with me, that is the number one thing they are talk-
                                                                  ing about. And you are supposed to be the small businesses’ voice
                                                                  and advocate here in Washington.
                                                                     So the concern isn’t just anecdotal. It is not just somebody telling
                                                                  me at their business what this is doing to them and their cus-
                                                                  tomers. All of the data bears this out.
                                                                     And even though you don’t mention tariffs at all in your written
                                                                  testimony, you have talked about tariffs before, and you have
                                                                  talked about the damage that a tariff policy, specifically when
                                                                  there is no strategy involved, does.
                                                                     I can point you to chapter 8 in your book ‘‘You’re Hired!’’ where
                                                                  you say a tariff is simply a tax on imports, where you say, quote,
                                                                  ‘‘The most damaging protectionist measures are import prohibitions
                                                                  and their equivalents, tariffs that are so high that imports stop al-
                                                                  together.’’
                                                                     You also said, quote, ‘‘Tariffs are taxes on top of all the other
                                                                  taxes and regulations of our economy,’’ and they, quote, ‘‘reduce
                                                                  employment, real incomes, and GDP.’’
                                                                     Your last point is actually proving correct right now. And in the
                                                                  wake of President Trump’s tariffs, according to his own Bureau of
                                                                  Labor Statistics, the unemployment rate has increased to 4.6 per-
                                                                  cent last year and the number of unemployed people increased to
                                                                  7.8 million over the last year.
                                                                     The Chamber of Commerce has reported that a majority of small
                                                                  businesses expect to raise prices and have less revenue than usual,
                                                                  so less disposable income is going to come back into our local econo-
                                                                  mies and stimulate growth. And, of course, it is making things
                                                                  harder for small businesses from Louisville across this country.




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                                                                     Are you all hearing the same thing from small businesses about
                                                                  tariffs that we are hearing?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     There were a number of incorrect premises, with all due respect.
                                                                  On my—on our website——
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. I was just quoting you.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Biden did not make 1,000 regulations, he made
                                                                  12,000, and about 8,600 of them are on my website.
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. I asked you, are you hearing about tariffs from
                                                                  small businesses? Are you?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes.
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. Of course you are, because that is what they
                                                                  are talking about. That is what is hurting them right now.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. For example, the fishermen—I brought my fish
                                                                  tie today. The fishermen from Massachusetts, they came. We vis-
                                                                  ited them. They visited us.
                                                                     And one of the things they raised is how the Europeans are
                                                                  stealing our fish and selling it back to us. That is not an exaggera-
                                                                  tion. And they are asking could there be a tariff so that we could
                                                                  fight—have a President who fights back against terrible trade
                                                                  deals——
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. So what has your office done——
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN.—and crushing our small businesses from Eu-
                                                                  rope.
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. What work has your office done to help small
                                                                  businesses with the burden they are facing from tariffs? Are you
                                                                  doing anything? You are supposed to be the advocate.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. You are right. I am the advocate. And job num-
                                                                  ber one is I listen to——
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. What have you done? Because we have got
                                                                  limited time. What have you done?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Two things: listen and make sure the policy-
                                                                  makers are hearing what I am hearing.
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. Because the President, when he went in front
                                                                  of the Supreme Court, said this is regulatory. He called tariffs reg-
                                                                  ulation. That is the point of his argument to the Supreme Court.
                                                                  He said that he, quote, ‘‘has the power to regulate.’’ That was the
                                                                  specific word they used on international trade.
                                                                     And what I am hearing from you today is that you are basically
                                                                  ignoring what is happening with our small businesses with the tar-
                                                                  iff problem, because you have changed your opinion that you used
                                                                  to write about now that you are working for the administration.
                                                                  Our small businesses need you more than you need to be loyal to
                                                                  this administration.
                                                                     You didn’t have much good to say in your book about Peter
                                                                  Navarro, the President’s trade guru and, quote/unquote, ‘‘unique
                                                                  China expert.’’
                                                                     Mr. Navarro is the principal author of our country’s current tariff
                                                                  policy. You called him—these are your words—you called him boor-
                                                                  ish and double-dealing. You wrote that you were, quote, ‘‘stunned’’
                                                                  by how misinformed he was in policy discussions. You accused him
                                                                  of economic illiteracy.




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                                                                     You even pointed out that he was so out of touch that he went
                                                                  around Capitol Hill making a big stink about a bill—and I am not
                                                                  making this up—that he named The FART Act.
                                                                     Setting aside your personal differences with Mr. Navarro, you
                                                                  seem to have diametrically opposed views on tariffs and what he
                                                                  does. Do you think he is the right man to be leading our trade pol-
                                                                  icy right now?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question. It loaded in a ton
                                                                  of——
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. Quotes.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN.—false premises.
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. Quotes. They are called quotes.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. A number of quotes that you quoted from that
                                                                  book were about Ronald Reagan’s policy. If you look at that chapter
                                                                  that you are quoting from, there is a picture of Ronald Reagan next
                                                                  to a picture of Donald J. Trump. And the whole discussion in that
                                                                  chapter is about Reagan’s import prohibitions and Reagan’s policies
                                                                  and how President Trump’s policies——
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. I must have the old copy, not the new copy.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. There is only one copy. And I wrote that chap-
                                                                  ter. It is very much about Reagan versus Trump. And you were at-
                                                                  tributing to President Trump Reagan’s——
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. You are ignoring the question about Peter
                                                                  Navarro. What about Peter Navarro? I didn’t ask about Ronald
                                                                  Reagan.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman’s time is up.
                                                                     Mr. MCGARVEY. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Mr. Finstad from the great State of Minnesota
                                                                  for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Chairman Williams. Thank you for
                                                                  holding this important hearing today.
                                                                     And thank you to our witness, Dr. Mulligan, for being here.
                                                                     I am excited to be here today to discuss the important role the
                                                                  SBA Office of Advocacy plays in ensuring small businesses have a
                                                                  strong voice in government.
                                                                     For many small businesses, especially those in rural commu-
                                                                  nities, like the communities that I represent in southern Min-
                                                                  nesota, federal regulations can be confusing and costly.
                                                                     The SBA Office of Advocacy serves as a vital resource for engag-
                                                                  ing with small business owners, and it holds agencies accountable
                                                                  to the Regulatory Flexibility Act.
                                                                     Since 2009—and we have heard this a few times already—fed-
                                                                  eral government regulations have cost small businesses $732.2 bil-
                                                                  lion, and, probably more egregiously, has added 483.8 million hours
                                                                  in administrative time to our small businesses.
                                                                     The Biden administration alone accounts for $450 billion of these
                                                                  costs and nearly 280 of the administrative hours, 280 million of
                                                                  these hours.
                                                                     I introduced the PROVE IT Act to give small businesses a seat
                                                                  at the table during this regulatory process and provide them with
                                                                  the much-needed regulatory relief by giving teeth to existing law,
                                                                  the RFA, the Regulatory Flexibility Act.




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                                                                     So with that, Dr. Mulligan, the PROVE IT Act passed this Com-
                                                                  mittee, the Judiciary Committee, and the full House of Representa-
                                                                  tives last Congress. This year, I reintroduced this legislation with
                                                                  the hope that it again passes the House and hopefully spurs the
                                                                  Senate for action.
                                                                     With the Chairman’s permission, I would like to offer a letter re-
                                                                  ceived this morning from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce for the
                                                                  record that supports the PROVE IT Act.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. Agreed.
                                                                     Mr. FINSTAD. So, Dr. Mulligan, as the House considers the
                                                                  PROVE IT Act, I want to know your thoughts on this legislation
                                                                  and hear how you believe it could help small businesses.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     Fictional certifications is an even bigger problem than was
                                                                  thought, and this Committee was early to identify it as a serious
                                                                  problem, and legislation such as the PROVE IT Act is directly try-
                                                                  ing to solve that problem.
                                                                     It is a problem that needs solving. If we don’t solve it—in this
                                                                  administration, President Trump is extremely supportive of small
                                                                  businesses. But he is not always going to be our President, and
                                                                  after that I think we need some legislation to prevent these fic-
                                                                  tional certifications.
                                                                     If fictional certifications continue, we have several problems with
                                                                  that for small businesses. Number one, it undermines the regu-
                                                                  latory review process. So that protection for small businesses to be
                                                                  able to go back and look at old regulations and take them out when
                                                                  they are outdated, et cetera, will be undermined.
                                                                     Another key issue is being able to understand the rules to follow.
                                                                  Back in the old days, Martin Luther said the common man should
                                                                  be able to read the word on his own. Well, we have something like
                                                                  that in the federal government, small entity compliance guides, but
                                                                  the agencies avoid that through these false and fictional certifi-
                                                                  cations.
                                                                     And last but not least would be, particularly for some of these
                                                                  special agencies like EPA, that when you have a false certification
                                                                  that the PROVE IT Act would prevent, it bypasses the panels and
                                                                  the great feedback we would get for small businesses and make
                                                                  better rules. The Ranking Member talked about well-crafted rules.
                                                                  The way to craft them well is to listen to the small businesses.
                                                                     Thank you.
                                                                     Mr. FINSTAD. It is probably a simple yes or no, but, Dr. Mul-
                                                                  ligan, you understand that small businesses—95 percent of the
                                                                  businesses in my district are small businesses. We are talking
                                                                  mom-and-pops, 10, 15, in some cases two, three employees.
                                                                     You understand that they don’t have time day in and day out,
                                                                  because at some point in the day they are the CFO, they are the
                                                                  CEO, they are the janitor, they are the mechanic, they are the
                                                                  cook. You name it, they are doing it all in that day.
                                                                     You understand they don’t have the time to keep up with the
                                                                  thousands upon thousands of regulations that a big, bloated gov-
                                                                  ernment puts onto our small businesses. You get that, right?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes, I do.
                                                                     Mr. FINSTAD. All right.




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                                                                     So a tool like the PROVE IT Act is something that will provide
                                                                  opportunities for common sense to prevail for our small businesses
                                                                  again.
                                                                     So how would the PROVE IT Act aid your office to influence or
                                                                  challenge agency rules that underestimate their impact on small
                                                                  businesses?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Well, the PROVE IT Act gives an additional
                                                                  role to small business voice, maybe delivered through the Office of
                                                                  Advocacy, in terms of questioning these fictional certifications and
                                                                  going ahead with the rule that acknowledges the cost that it cre-
                                                                  ates and helps with the compliance and finding alternatives, less
                                                                  costly alternatives of achieving the same goals.
                                                                     Mr. FINSTAD. I appreciate what you do. Thank you for being
                                                                  here today.
                                                                     And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of Michigan
                                                                  for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair, Madam Ranking Mem-
                                                                  ber, and Dr. Mulligan, for joining us here today. Great to have a
                                                                  fellow Midwesterner in our presence.
                                                                     The topic of the day is tariffs, how do we combat the terrible im-
                                                                  pact that tariffs are having on our small business. You are here be-
                                                                  cause we are looking to you to help us protect small businesses.
                                                                     I have here five different letters that I would like to enter into
                                                                  the record from small businesses across the country who reached
                                                                  out to this Committee desperate for help to try and combat the dev-
                                                                  astating impact of this administration’s tariff policies on their
                                                                  small businesses.
                                                                     One small business owner, Lynne Fletcher O’Brien from McLean,
                                                                  Virginia, wrote in, and she actually used—and people here use the
                                                                  words, ‘‘They are targeting us. They are attacking us.’’ They see
                                                                  this administration as literally targeting small businesses.
                                                                     Lynne Fletcher O’Brien writes in and talks about actually pun-
                                                                  ishing small businesses, talks about a procedure that Customs and
                                                                  Border Protection employs where officials are actually destroying
                                                                  items when they can’t properly assess the value because of this
                                                                  chaotic tariff policy. She said, ‘‘I am urging you to push for tariff
                                                                  relief that doesn’t punish small American businesses and con-
                                                                  sumers.’’
                                                                     You are in the Office of Advocacy. They are looking to you to
                                                                  help. In west Michigan, our agricultural sector in particular is
                                                                  struggling. Rural America is struggling. President Trump’s tariffs,
                                                                  including many businesses in the agricultural sector, he is pun-
                                                                  ishing these businesses.
                                                                     Michigan is not only the nation’s second-largest producer of ap-
                                                                  ples. In my district, Grand Rapids is the apple capital of the State.
                                                                  As a result of the President’s tariffs, fresh apple exports have de-
                                                                  clined by 58 percent this year.
                                                                     West Michigan produces nearly three-quarters of Michigan’s har-
                                                                  vested apples in 2024, so you can imagine how devastating these
                                                                  tariffs have been to my district’s food and agricultural small busi-
                                                                  nesses.




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                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, you said that, when my colleague Mr. McGarvey
                                                                  was asking you what are you doing about it, you said you were
                                                                  making sure that individuals have information about it.
                                                                     Is that all? Is that all that you are doing? Is that all that the
                                                                  Office of Advocacy can do to help from small businesses feeling like
                                                                  they are being punished by this administration?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     Advocacy has two basic roles. The outreach. Listening, in other
                                                                  words. Listening to small businesses. And I would be glad to look
                                                                  at the letters that you are putting in the record. I think every
                                                                  small business voice counts.
                                                                     Ms. SCHOLTEN. Great. We have them here for your review.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. And the second role is to communicate to the
                                                                  agencies and try to be persuasive in terms of making sure they
                                                                  know what the small business concerns are and urging them to
                                                                  seek policies that promote success of small businesses.
                                                                     I have found the partnership in the administration to be incred-
                                                                  ible. As I said in my testimony, they are coming to me before I can
                                                                  go to them in many cases, including in the tariff area.
                                                                     I had an entrepreneur from Chicago who came to Washington. I
                                                                  met with her. And she mentioned—she sells coffee, purchases im-
                                                                  ported coffee. She said coffee is getting pretty expensive.
                                                                     That was during the shutdown, so I couldn’t meet with the peo-
                                                                  ple at that time. But the very first day the shutdown was over, I
                                                                  was told to come to the White House and share what I have been
                                                                  hearing. And before I could share that Chicago entrepreneur’s
                                                                  story, the Commerce principal said: Hey, we are cutting the tariff
                                                                  on coffee and some other items immediately.
                                                                     So that is the kind of experience that I have had. They are very
                                                                  eager to hear about small businesses and to take fast action to
                                                                  make things better.
                                                                     Ms. SCHOLTEN. And what action is that? I mean, we are still
                                                                  seeing these small business owners writing in and saying: We feel
                                                                  like we are being punished here.
                                                                     I mean, what would you say to Lynne in her letter here who says
                                                                  please do something about these policies that are punishing us?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I would be glad to read the letter. I don’t reply to letters I
                                                                  haven’t read.
                                                                     Ms. SCHOLTEN. I mean, I am reading them to you right now.
                                                                  I am reading it verbatim. She says: I am urging you.
                                                                     This certainly can’t be the first time you have heard from some-
                                                                  one who feels—and I would question whether you truly are listen-
                                                                  ing if you are telling me you have never heard from people who say
                                                                  they feel——
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Wait a second. I just got done explaining about
                                                                  the Chicago entrepreneur who was importing the coffee. I heard
                                                                  from her. I went to the—I was called to the White House to share
                                                                  what I am hearing and——
                                                                     Ms. SCHOLTEN. And you share with them that people feel like
                                                                  they are being punished and destroyed by these tariffs?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I shared what the Chicago entrepreneur said,
                                                                  not what you are saying.




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                                                                     Ms. SCHOLTEN. So have you shared with the White House that
                                                                  American small businesses feel like they are being punished by
                                                                  this tariff policy?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I have not heard a business tell that they me
                                                                  that they are being punished.
                                                                     Ms. SCHOLTEN. You do not feel that this—you have not heard
                                                                  from any small businesses that feel that this would be a——
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady’s time is up.
                                                                     Ms. SCHOLTEN.—devastating impact on their small business?
                                                                     Then I am glad I entered these into the record. We encourage
                                                                  you to come to west Michigan and talk to small businesses who are
                                                                  experiencing devastating consequences of this tariff policy.
                                                                     I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the Northern Mariana Is-
                                                                  lands for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                     And I want to thank you, Dr. Mulligan, for making time to be
                                                                  with us today.
                                                                     So, as the Chairman has stated, I represent the Northern Mar-
                                                                  iana Islands. And 99 percent of our problem out of—we have 99
                                                                  problems. Ninety-eight percent of our problems can be directly at-
                                                                  tributed to rules—federal rules and regulations.
                                                                     We have one industry, which is the tourism industry. And just
                                                                  the other day, a few days ago, on my way back here, I was in-
                                                                  formed by one of our largest employers in the private sector that
                                                                  they are considering closing down.
                                                                     And this is an issue that the economy of the CNMI is something
                                                                  that I am deeply passionate about. And I have been communicating
                                                                  the challenges that we are having to the federal government as
                                                                  early as during the tenure of Secretary Pete Buttigieg, because
                                                                  when tourism is your primary industry DOT rules and regulations
                                                                  have a very significant impact.
                                                                     So I don’t really have any questions for you, but I do have an
                                                                  ask, because all too often these federal policies have mainland
                                                                  firms in mind or mainland small businesses in mind. So I would
                                                                  ask for you to consider or committing to a direct outreach to small
                                                                  businesses in the CNMI, whether it be through virtual or whatever
                                                                  means.
                                                                     I also ask that your research and economic analysis, don’t just
                                                                  lump us all in with Region 9, and I think that is the region that
                                                                  we fall under, because we are not like the West Coast. We are a
                                                                  remote island community.
                                                                     And also, it would be amazing if you guys could track and report
                                                                  the real world impact so that we can start actually getting ahead
                                                                  of some of these issues so that we can prevent a complete economic
                                                                  collapse of the CNMI, which I don’t think anybody at the federal
                                                                  government wants.
                                                                     That is it. Thank you for your time.
                                                                     I yield my time.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New Jersey
                                                                  for 5 minutes.




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                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for
                                                                  convening this hearing.
                                                                     And thank you to our witness, Mr. Mulligan, for appearing before
                                                                  the Committee today.
                                                                     The SBA Office of Advocacy was created by Congress to be an
                                                                  independent voice for small businesses before the government, to
                                                                  make sure the real world cost of government policies are actually
                                                                  understood, and to ensure small business owners have someone in
                                                                  their corner when they are competing with big businesses.
                                                                     That mission is especially important right now. Small businesses
                                                                  are facing some of the toughest economic conditions since the Great
                                                                  Recession. Costs are up, margins are thin, and uncertainty is high.
                                                                     At the same time, Trump’s administration has made deregula-
                                                                  tion a central policy priority and has directed its Office of Advocacy
                                                                  to gut key services to small businesses under the guise of cutting
                                                                  red tape across the federal government.
                                                                     When done thoughtfully, regulatory reform can help small busi-
                                                                  nesses grow. I think all of my colleagues here can agree to that.
                                                                  But when it is rushed or done without transparency, it risks shut-
                                                                  ting small businesses out of the very processes meant to protect
                                                                  them.
                                                                     I have listened to the concerns of actual small businesses in my
                                                                  district and nationwide across a range of industries. Their concerns
                                                                  are very clear, Dr. Mulligan. They tell me that what is hurting
                                                                  them most right now is persistent inflation, tariffs, and rising
                                                                  healthcare costs after the Republican majority let the enhanced
                                                                  ACA tax credits expire.
                                                                     Small businesses need to know that the Office of Advocacy is ful-
                                                                  filling its statutory role as an independent, Dr. Mulligan, advocate.
                                                                  They also need to know whether the SBA’s work is focused on the
                                                                  real economic conditions small businesses are facing or if it is serv-
                                                                  ing a more partisan interest, Dr. Mulligan.
                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, Congress intentionally structured the Office of Ad-
                                                                  vocacy as an independent entity within the SBA so that it could
                                                                  speak candidly, even when that means disagreeing with the admin-
                                                                  istration. I want to inform you, Dr. Mulligan, that it is okay to dis-
                                                                  agree with the administration.
                                                                     Will you certify here that you did not have to clear the state-
                                                                  ments you made here today by any organ of the White House, espe-
                                                                  cially the Office of Management and Budget and SBA?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     As I mentioned earlier, the OMB, Office of Management and
                                                                  Budget, they get a copy of my testimony at the same time that this
                                                                  Committee does.
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. That is your answer?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes. I would not call that clearing. That is a
                                                                  courtesy copy. ‘‘Guess what, guys, I am going to the Hill. I am
                                                                  going to be part of a hearing. And here is what I am going to be
                                                                  saying.’’
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. Did you have to get approval, yes or no?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. No, I did not get approval.
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. Dr. Mulligan——
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I sent it to you before they could possibly——
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. Dr. Mulligan——




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                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN.—open their mouth and comment on it.
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. Dr. Mulligan, when I say your name, that means
                                                                  I am reclaiming my time.
                                                                     How can America’s small businesses trust you to speak truth to
                                                                  the administration when you couldn’t even speak to us here today
                                                                  without their approval?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Well, that is loaded with false—thank you for
                                                                  your question, but it is loaded with false premises. I did not need
                                                                  their approval for my testimony today.
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. Dr. Mulligan, can you describe clearly on the
                                                                  record how you define independence in your role as chief counsel
                                                                  and what concrete safeguards are in place to ensure your office’s
                                                                  positions are not directed or constrained by this administration?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Yeah. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     The Office of Advocacy was really blessed with special statutes
                                                                  from Congress. They are so special I have them laminated. I carry
                                                                  them with me everywhere.
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. I mean, you obviously have a lot of things lami-
                                                                  nated right there in front of you.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. So actually this is the only laminated thing in
                                                                  front of me.
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. Well, you have all your statements there.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. And these special statutes include being open
                                                                  during the shutdown. That was special. If you want to call that
                                                                  independent, that is fine. It is not in the statute.
                                                                     But the hiring authority, it used to be, in the old days, to hire
                                                                  people the chief counsel needed the consultation and approval of
                                                                  the Administrator. That is no longer true. I have that in my lami-
                                                                  nated statute.
                                                                     The reporting rules, that there should not be clearance from
                                                                  OMB and the other federal agencies, that is another special rule
                                                                  that the office has, and we appreciate that and we follow that.
                                                                     Mrs. MCIVER. Mr. Mulligan, that concludes my questions. I will
                                                                  say that that question specifically should not need a laminated doc-
                                                                  ument for you to respond to.
                                                                     With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Ms. Van Duyne from the great State of Texas for
                                                                  5 minutes.
                                                                     Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much.
                                                                     And, Dr. Mulligan, I appreciate your testimony today.
                                                                     You have a really important job. I mean, I am listening to my
                                                                  colleagues on the other side of the aisle and it sounds like you have
                                                                  the most important job for small businesses in the government.
                                                                  Like, your job is to be the massive advocate.
                                                                     Can you tell me a little bit about your predecessor in your posi-
                                                                  tion? Since this is such an important job under the Trump adminis-
                                                                  tration and everybody on my Democrat colleagues recognize the
                                                                  fact that this is such an important job that small businesses have
                                                                  this advocate voice. Can you tell me about your predecessor?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     We have an empty chair right here. That is what it was for 9
                                                                  years. President Biden didn’t even bother to nominate somebody for
                                                                  this.




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                                                                     I think it is an important job. I enjoy doing it. And I am blessed
                                                                  that President Trump asked me to do this job.
                                                                     Ms. VAN DUYNE. I recognize that. And I recognize that we have
                                                                  finally realized that we need to have a voice for our small busi-
                                                                  nesses, because it seems like during the 4 years of the Biden ad-
                                                                  ministration they got absolutely crushed.
                                                                     How many additional regulations did you say that the Biden ad-
                                                                  ministration put on our small businesses?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. If we just count the final rules that were pub-
                                                                  lished in the Federal Register, it is 12,025.
                                                                     Ms. VAN DUYNE. 12,000 in 4 years. And what was the cost of
                                                                  all those?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I mean, there are so many it is a little bit hard
                                                                  to say. But my best estimate is for the entire economy $6 trillion—
                                                                  with a T.
                                                                     Ms. VAN DUYNE. Wow. Okay. And that crushed small busi-
                                                                  nesses, right? Because they are at a disadvantage when you are
                                                                  looking at corporations, because corporations actually can have,
                                                                  like, an entire regulatory agency—or an entire regulatory depart-
                                                                  ment, a division.
                                                                     Small businesses don’t have that. So they are relying on folks
                                                                  like you to be able to say: Look, when we have these regulations
                                                                  that we think are little that are coming out of these agencies, this
                                                                  can crush us.
                                                                     I mean, it is averaging what? It was $50,000 an employee, is
                                                                  what the small businesses were having to pay in addition to during
                                                                  the Biden administration?
                                                                     It is absolutely astonishing to me that after the previous 4 years
                                                                  of that administration that we are finally having advocacy from our
                                                                  Democrat colleagues for small businesses, the $1.8 trillion that
                                                                  they added.
                                                                     We are hearing about tariffs and crushing the economy. I am
                                                                  sorry. What was the GDP growth last quarter?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I believe it was 4.3 percent annualized rate.
                                                                     Ms. VAN DUYNE. Wow. Okay. And we finally have wages now
                                                                  that are outgrowing inflation, right? So this is great for our small
                                                                  businesses.
                                                                     And the unemployment that they were talking about, what sector
                                                                  was that unemployment in, the increase in unemployment? It is
                                                                  the public sector, right? It was government jobs, right, that we had
                                                                  lost? But in the private sector, didn’t we see an increase? Didn’t we
                                                                  see more small businesses hiring?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Yes, that is correct. I mean, one very important
                                                                  statistic that we are seeing is new business applications. They were
                                                                  skyrocketing in 2025 to historic levels. We have never seen some-
                                                                  thing like that.
                                                                     A lot of people say, including the previous administration, that
                                                                  those sort of applications, employer identification number applica-
                                                                  tions, are quite an important predictor of future employment
                                                                  growth.
                                                                     Ms. VAN DUYNE. So it seems like this administration actually
                                                                  gets it, that we are helping on the tariff side to make sure that our
                                                                  small businesses are able to compete globally, that we are helping




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                                                                  them on the tax side with the One Big Beautiful Bill and the 199A
                                                                  on pass-through, recognizing that we want them to be able to com-
                                                                  pete with corporations.
                                                                     And then I actually have a bill that was passed off the House
                                                                  floor. It is the H.R. 2965, the Small Business Reduction Act of
                                                                  2025. And basically what that says, it is a bill that any new rule-
                                                                  making by the SBA is at no cost to small businesses.
                                                                     Now, it is not saying that you can’t have additional regulations
                                                                  as necessary, as needed; but what it does say is you are going to
                                                                  have to cut some that are duplicative, that are unnecessary, that
                                                                  don’t even reflect the intent of the law.
                                                                     Can I ask you how we can make that permanent, that we can
                                                                  actually codify the decrease in regulations on small businesses?
                                                                  And how do we create, like, a systemic culture of regulatory dis-
                                                                  cipline where agencies will have to review with regulatory scru-
                                                                  tiny?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     Just a few seconds we have left.
                                                                     I think regulatory budgeting is worth looking at. President
                                                                  Trump did that in the first term, EO 13771, and he is doing it
                                                                  again in this term.
                                                                     That is something that could be in the statute that Congress
                                                                  could be involved with, not just setting the money budget but also
                                                                  setting the regulatory budget.
                                                                     Ms. VAN DUYNE. Okay. Fantastic. I appreciate that.
                                                                     What has your office—in, like, the 10 seconds that you have
                                                                  got—what would you say are the top three things that you have
                                                                  gotten accomplished since you have been here?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I think being part of the regulatory agendas,
                                                                  saying what rules we are going to add and subtract and reform,
                                                                  that is huge. I am very, very gratified that so many agencies have
                                                                  asked for our input.
                                                                     Ms. VAN DUYNE. Fantastic. Thank you very much for what you
                                                                  do, and I appreciate your testimony here today.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Dr. Morrison from the great State of Minnesota
                                                                  for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking
                                                                  Member Velázquez, for holding the hearing.
                                                                     Thank you, Dr. Mulligan, for being here to testify.
                                                                     Since you represent the Office of Advocacy, which is intended to
                                                                  be the voice of small businesses, I am sorry to be redundant this
                                                                  morning, but I have to begin by asking you about the number one
                                                                  concern that I am hearing from small businesses in my district,
                                                                  which of course are the tariffs.
                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, during your testimony, you said that, ‘‘When regu-
                                                                  lation tilts markets toward incumbents and away from new en-
                                                                  trants, it directly undermines the small businesses that drive
                                                                  American innovation and job creation.’’
                                                                     Do you agree that allowing large tech companies like Nvidia and
                                                                  Apple to negotiate directly with the President for tariff exemptions
                                                                  tilts markets towards incumbents? Yes-or-no question.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I am not familiar with the premise of the ques-
                                                                  tion, so I am not sure how to analyze. I haven’t been part of the




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                                                                  President’s discussions with large businesses. My attention is on
                                                                  the small businesses.
                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. I will just give you one more chance.
                                                                     Do you agree that allowing large tech companies like Nvidia and
                                                                  Apple—we are all aware this happened—to negotiate directly with
                                                                  the President for tariff exemptions tilts markets towards incum-
                                                                  bents?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I am not familiar with the policy. I can’t really opine on some-
                                                                  thing I am not familiar with.
                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. Okay. We will move on.
                                                                     Do you think tariffs are helping small businesses stimulate job
                                                                  creation?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     Probably the quickest way to answer it would be to go back to
                                                                  what I have heard about European terrible trade deals. I have
                                                                  heard these—again, this is not my opinion, my study. This is what
                                                                  I hear from the small businesses.
                                                                     Europe has a bunch of supply chain regulations that are going
                                                                  to cost small businesses a trillion dollars—with a T—and we didn’t
                                                                  even get to vote for those people.
                                                                     President Biden was weak and ineffective on that policy——
                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. Dr. Mulligan, I am sorry to interrupt you, but
                                                                  I am not asking about Europe. I am talking about American small
                                                                  businesses.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN.—and small businesses want a President who
                                                                  will fight back against these terrible international policies.
                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. Dr. Mulligan, I am reclaiming my time, re-
                                                                  spectfully.
                                                                     What I have been hearing repeatedly from small businesses is
                                                                  that they are the ones bearing the brunt of President Trump’s tar-
                                                                  iff war. They are the ones being forced to eat the costs or lay off
                                                                  staff while larger corporations are able to lobby the President and
                                                                  receive exemptions.
                                                                     I really hope that during the coming months the Office of Advo-
                                                                  cacy does more than it has done this past year to protect small
                                                                  businesses from the impact of tariffs and ensure that small busi-
                                                                  nesses are able to not just survive but to grow and prosper.
                                                                     During our first Small Business Committee hearing last year, I
                                                                  asked Mr. Karl Hutter, the CEO of Click Bond, a small, family-
                                                                  owned manufacturing business, how we can strike the right bal-
                                                                  ance with regulations to encourage small businesses to thrive.
                                                                     His response was very clear. Small businesses, he said, need pre-
                                                                  dictability, clarity, and workability.
                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, during your time here today you have made it
                                                                  clear that this administration has a very ambitious deregulatory
                                                                  agenda. In other words, we are going to see, and we are already
                                                                  seeing, a great deal of change and uncertainty in the regulatory
                                                                  space.
                                                                     What is the Office of Advocacy doing to help small businesses
                                                                  navigate the uncertainty deregulation brings with it?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     We have our Constitution and Presidents serve two terms at
                                                                  most.




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                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. That is a relief to hear.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. And so the executive branch turns over.
                                                                     What has proven to be more durable are the statutes. And so one
                                                                  of the things that the Office of Advocacy does is advocate for small
                                                                  businesses here on the Hill, in writing statutes. And this Congress
                                                                  has been quite productive in that regard, 22 Congressional Review
                                                                  Act disapprovals passed.
                                                                     And those are things that will last beyond the current adminis-
                                                                  tration, and that’s providing a much-wanted certainty for our small
                                                                  businesses.
                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan. I did not hear how
                                                                  you are helping small businesses navigate the uncertainty that de-
                                                                  regulation brings.
                                                                     But one final question. I am a physician by trade, so I am very
                                                                  familiar with the pain and frustration caused by administrative
                                                                  burden. I am sympathetic to the concerns raised by small business
                                                                  owners that extensive regulations can be onerous and burdensome.
                                                                     But I also recognize that regulations are critical to keeping peo-
                                                                  ple safe and healthy and keeping our air, land, and water clean.
                                                                     I hope we can all agree that finding that right balance between
                                                                  protecting Americans’ health and safety while ensuring that small
                                                                  businesses can flourish is a goal worth pursuing.
                                                                     In the midst of the Trump administration’s calls for deregulation,
                                                                  what steps will your office take to ensure there is that balance
                                                                  struck between this deregulatory agenda and protecting the health
                                                                  and safety of our small business owners and their employees.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     Yes, the balance is quite important. You need to listen to the
                                                                  small businesses. The false certifications are not achieving balance.
                                                                  That is ignoring costs and pretending they don’t exist. You can’t
                                                                  balance something that you are ignoring.
                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. So no comment on the air, land, and water?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. No, there is a balance between the mission—
                                                                  this is in the RFA itself—the mission of the regulatory——
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The time is up.
                                                                     Ms. MORRISON. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chair.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana
                                                                  for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair.
                                                                     And thank you, Dr. Mulligan, for being here today.
                                                                     I represent Montana’s Second District, central and eastern Mon-
                                                                  tana, very rural, and small businesses are very vital to our rural
                                                                  communities.
                                                                     And being somewhat of a glutton for punishment, I come out of
                                                                  the private sector. I have created a lot of—I have run a lot of small
                                                                  businesses in everything from manufacturing to distillation to secu-
                                                                  rities to insurance to manufacturing. And I have personally seen
                                                                  how heavy-handed and unreasonable regulation can stifle growth
                                                                  and make it difficult, especially on small businesses, in being suc-
                                                                  cessful.
                                                                     And a lot of that, if you are boots on the ground, watching how
                                                                  this—everybody cares about bad actors. Everybody cares about pro-




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                                                                  tecting consumers. I would say bad actors are bad for industry. No-
                                                                  body wants bad actors in their business.
                                                                     And so the thought that deregulating is going to create this petri
                                                                  dish of bad actors, I think, is misplaced. We do need to have rea-
                                                                  sonable side boards, but we also need to allow small businesses to
                                                                  be successful.
                                                                     And one of the things that caught my attention here is about
                                                                  raising the barrier to entry for competing in an industry and how
                                                                  that is different between larger companies who can manage the
                                                                  costs and the administrative burdens caused by this regulation,
                                                                  and main street really can’t.
                                                                     And, Dr. Mulligan, in your testimony you mentioned this artifi-
                                                                  cial advantage that government regulation creates for large busi-
                                                                  nesses over small ones. Can you elaborate on the negative impact
                                                                  this artificial advantage has on economic innovation?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Yeah. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I think a vivid example that is worked on in some detail in a let-
                                                                  ter I sent to Commissioner Oz over at CMS about what has hap-
                                                                  pened to independent physicians.
                                                                     They used to be a majority of physicians, and now they are quite
                                                                  a fairly small minority. And a lot of these regulations that we are
                                                                  discussing are part of the issue.
                                                                     The fact that the big hospitals, when they employ the physicians,
                                                                  they get extra government money that the independent physicians
                                                                  don’t. That has been a factor in driving down the capability of inde-
                                                                  pendent physicians to stay in their small business mode.
                                                                     Mr. DOWNING. Right, right.
                                                                     By the end of 2024, the Biden administration had imposed $1.8
                                                                  trillion in regulatory costs on American businesses.
                                                                     In your view, how much has the regulatory environment changed
                                                                  since President Trump’s swearing-in, and what impact has it had
                                                                  on small business?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     It has been a 180-degree turn, such a huge change. I mean, there
                                                                  was so much regulation. I think $6 trillion is the best estimate that
                                                                  we have of the Biden regulations, just 4 years’ worth of them.
                                                                     And now, there are some new regulations coming out, but a lot
                                                                  more regulations being taken away.
                                                                     What has been the impact on small businesses so far? I think it
                                                                  has been over $100 billion reduced costs as a result of President
                                                                  Trump’s agencies’ actions.
                                                                     Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you.
                                                                     And under your leadership, in what ways has the Office of Advo-
                                                                  cacy influenced rulemaking under the Trump administration in
                                                                  support of small businesses?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Really the two steps I like to talk about is lis-
                                                                  tening. We continue to listen. That is my favorite part. I learn so
                                                                  much talking to the small businesses and hearing what they expe-
                                                                  rience.
                                                                     And then relaying those experiences and trying to put it in prac-
                                                                  tical terms for the agencies. Here are some rules you should look
                                                                  at. Here is what the small businesses are saying about the reasons
                                                                  to reform those rules.
                                                                     Mr. DOWNING. Right. Thank you.




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                                                                     Well, I really appreciate your testimony here today.
                                                                     And, on that, Mr. Chair, I yield back the remainder of my time.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back his time.
                                                                     I now recognize Mr. Cisneros from the great State of California
                                                                  for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank
                                                                  you and the Ranking Member for holding this hearing today.
                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, in your response to the Ranking Member’s letter
                                                                  from November you declined to answer her question about the
                                                                  number of submissions related to tariffs because it was not in the
                                                                  scope of a hotline.
                                                                     After my colleagues across the aisle rejected my amendment to
                                                                  the bill that would codify the hotline, I introduced my own bill that
                                                                  would increase the scope of the hotline to give Advocacy an explicit
                                                                  role in hearing concerns from small businesses regarding tariffs.
                                                                     Is this something you would support, Dr. Mulligan?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I haven’t been able to read your bill. I would like to study it be-
                                                                  fore declaring my support or resistance.
                                                                     Mr. CISNEROS. Well, I mean, it is a simple question, right?
                                                                  Would you support the hotline reporting the information on tariffs,
                                                                  that you want to take a bigger concern in that? Is that something
                                                                  you would support?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     What I am clear on—one of the reasons our office has had such
                                                                  great successes in just 5 months is we used the right tool for the
                                                                  job, something my parents taught me, the right tool for the job.
                                                                     And the right tool for the red tape hotline is red tape. That is
                                                                  the job that you use the red tape tool for. So I wouldn’t advocate
                                                                  using a hammer when you need a screwdriver or a wrench.
                                                                     Mr. CISNEROS. Well, it is a simple thing, right, to include more
                                                                  information right there? Tariffs are obviously hurting small busi-
                                                                  nesses, and to gather that information to report it to the Com-
                                                                  mittee is something that I hope you would support.
                                                                     And I hope you will take a look at my bill and do that, because
                                                                  it seems to align with what you said in the past, which is, it is con-
                                                                  sistent with your statement where you ask this Committee to con-
                                                                  sider legislation that gives the Office of Advocacy a more official
                                                                  role in trade policy.
                                                                     So with that, I will move to my next question.
                                                                     I hope you agree that the regional advocates are crucial because
                                                                  they serve as direct liaisons between local and small businesses
                                                                  and federal regulators.
                                                                     Region 9 covers California and several other States and Terri-
                                                                  tories. I would like to read you the bio of the Region 9 advocate
                                                                  for the Office of Advocacy website. It reads, ‘‘Vacant, bio coming
                                                                  soon.’’
                                                                     Mr. Chairman, I ask for unanimous consent that this Region 9
                                                                  advocate bio is entered into the record.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved.
                                                                     Mr. CISNEROS. Dr. Mulligan, are you aware of how many small
                                                                  businesses there are in the State of California?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I don’t have the exact number off the top of my
                                                                  head, but I would guess it is in the millions.




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                                                                     Mr. CISNEROS. 4.3 million—4.3 million small businesses.
                                                                     Now, Dr. Mulligan, while there is no regional advocate for Cali-
                                                                  fornia’s 4.3 million small businesses, when do you expect an ap-
                                                                  pointment to be made for Region 9 advocates to ensure California’s
                                                                  4.3 million small businesses have their voice heard?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     We set a record over all other Presidencies before in terms of get-
                                                                  ting our outreach advocacy team, our regional advocacy team, filled
                                                                  in.
                                                                     We still do need to fill in Region 9. There was a long delay in
                                                                  my confirmation. I wasn’t allowed to interview people for that posi-
                                                                  tion. But as soon as the Senate finally finished the job, I was inter-
                                                                  viewing people. And it wouldn’t surprise me if it is just a matter
                                                                  of days or weeks that we have that position filled.
                                                                     Mr. CISNEROS. Do you have somebody that you have already
                                                                  talked to, that you have interviewed?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. I have talked to a number of people. It is a big
                                                                  priority to hear from small businesses everywhere.
                                                                     Mr. CISNEROS. So you have somebody in the pipeline that
                                                                  should be there, and so within the next few days I should hear a
                                                                  name, that somebody has been appointed to this?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. There is a lot of red tape in hiring people, so
                                                                  it is hard to commit to a date. But it is a priority, and I interview
                                                                  and I am pushing——
                                                                     Mr. CISNEROS. Well, I guess we are here to hear about cutting
                                                                  the red tape. So how do we kind of make this—do you make those
                                                                  cuts so you can make this?
                                                                     Look, I served in the previous administration. I know what it
                                                                  takes, and I know how it can be difficult sometimes. But this needs
                                                                  to be a priority, right?
                                                                     And this is, like, California has 4.3—and that is not including
                                                                  the other States in the region that add businesses to this too, and
                                                                  they deserve to have an advocate for them that is supporting them.
                                                                     You know, when we have had previous discussions before you
                                                                  came on board, it just did not seem to be a priority of this adminis-
                                                                  tration to put somebody in charge there. And, look, we have seen
                                                                  numerous times where the President has singled out California be-
                                                                  cause it does not support him.
                                                                     And so I hope you are arguing or telling the administration to
                                                                  look beyond the political disagreements and that we need to sup-
                                                                  port our small businesses, and we should have a Region 9 director,
                                                                  and that they start making this a priority.
                                                                     And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                     I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of Pennsylvania
                                                                  for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                     Thank you very much, Dr. Mulligan. Appreciate your testimony.
                                                                  Appreciate the idea of—well, getting to know you better and work-
                                                                  ing with you.
                                                                     I, too, am a small business advocate. I think we all are up here.
                                                                  And it is quite important, to say the least.




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                                                                     Recently the NFIB put out some data that—and of course they
                                                                  have got tens of thousands of members—that small business opti-
                                                                  mism is way up, almost 10 percent since last November.
                                                                     So over the course of a year—or November of 2023, so over the
                                                                  course of President Trump’s first year—we are up in optimism over
                                                                  10 percent.
                                                                     And that is largely due, let’s face it, to the taxes that all Repub-
                                                                  licans voted for in the 199A. Without those tax reductions, small
                                                                  businesses’ taxes would have gone up 25 percent, approximately,
                                                                  maybe slightly more in some cases depending upon level of income
                                                                  being earned.
                                                                     And that is enormous. I mean, many small businesses, of course,
                                                                  said they would be out of business if that weren’t the case. Yet all
                                                                  Democrats felt it was in their interest to vote against it. That is
                                                                  amazing, I mean.
                                                                     Would you say that is a small business advocate that would vote
                                                                  to increase small business taxes by nearly 25 percent?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     We hear a lot from small business. Maybe the top thing, the in-
                                                                  ternal revenue burden on small businesses, that is tough for so
                                                                  many of them. And so they would have problems with any new
                                                                  statutes that add to that.
                                                                     Mr. MEUSER. It would probably send some products overseas,
                                                                  wouldn’t it, as well, right, even in spite of the so-called tariffs? And
                                                                  I want to get to that.
                                                                     But the work you have done on regulations is so very important.
                                                                  I would like you to make a side note where we need to codify
                                                                  some—whether the regulations, whatever.
                                                                     If you were sitting in my seat, what would you work on codi-
                                                                  fying? And we can talk about that afterwards. I won’t just ask you
                                                                  to name it off the top of your head.
                                                                     But permitting, energy costs. Energy costs have been unbeliev-
                                                                  ably important for small business. They have come down 30 per-
                                                                  cent, something of that nature, over the course of the last 14
                                                                  months.
                                                                     Workforce improvements. No tax on overtime is now kicking in.
                                                                  No tax on tips.
                                                                     There is a big difference—under President Trump we started re-
                                                                  thinking trade, right? And we were taught: Oh, free trade, free
                                                                  trade, free trade. What did that do to U.S. manufacturing? Okay.
                                                                  Sent it overseas, I mean, like a giant sucking sound as we heard
                                                                  before.
                                                                     Japan had a hundred percent tariff on us. China had all kinds
                                                                  of tariffs on us. Everything was being made in China. Now we are
                                                                  bringing it back.
                                                                     And you know what many people don’t understand? Because I
                                                                  was in small business for a long time too. Many small businesses’
                                                                  best customers are large businesses, right? So when those large
                                                                  businesses start sending their products overseas, guess what, it
                                                                  flattens, it destroys the small business.
                                                                     So the so-called tariffs—by the way, we had our shock and awe,
                                                                  we got the whole world’s attention—now they have come down con-
                                                                  siderably.




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                                                                     And, frankly, my office, we are small business advocates. We are
                                                                  not getting the calls on it. Initially, yeah, what is going to happen,
                                                                  particularly certain sectors.
                                                                     But would you say that in the small business world and in the
                                                                  calls that you are getting—and, by the way, your red tape hotline,
                                                                  I suggest you rename it the blue tape hotline, just a suggestion.
                                                                     But if you would, what sort of calls are you getting these days
                                                                  to your hotline?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     We get a variety of regulations. As I mentioned, 12,025, there is
                                                                  a whole variety.
                                                                     Mr. MEUSER. Right.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Regulations related to procurement is a fairly
                                                                  common one. A lot of health, Food and Drug Administration-type
                                                                  of regulations, CMS, HHS. Paperwork around IRS, we hear a fair
                                                                  bit about that.
                                                                     Mr. MEUSER. Well, while I have 45 seconds left, what would
                                                                  you suggest that we work on codifying that you are working on,
                                                                  and how else can we support your efforts?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I would like to get together with you afterward because I think
                                                                  it is important. President Trump won’t always be our President.
                                                                  Congress can do things on a more durable basis. And we do hear
                                                                  from small businesses that they do appreciate when Congress
                                                                  comes in and provides durable solutions.
                                                                     Mr. MEUSER. Well, I absolutely welcome you up to Pennsylva-
                                                                  nia’s Ninth Congressional District. It is a lovely ride. Maybe we can
                                                                  do that sometime in the near future.
                                                                     With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. Mr. Chairman?
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. Yes, ma’am.
                                                                     Ms. VELÁZQUEZ. A correction here. It is not red—blue tape. It
                                                                  is blue waste that is coming.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Mr. Tran from the great
                                                                  State of California for 5 minutes.
                                                                     Mr. TRAN. Good morning. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking
                                                                  Member, for convening today’s important meeting.
                                                                     Dr. Mulligan, welcome. Thank you for being here.
                                                                     While the future rates of tariffs are still uncertain, the costs are
                                                                  becoming clearer. Analysts estimated tariffs cost small business
                                                                  owners an additional $25,000 per month from April to September.
                                                                  Small business bankruptcies are up 10 percent this year and up 23
                                                                  percent in November alone.
                                                                     According to data from ADP, small businesses lost 120,000 jobs
                                                                  in November, while larger ones continued gaining.
                                                                     I am deeply concerned because the data is showing that the U.S.
                                                                  bankruptcies and employment levels are reaching levels not seen
                                                                  since the Great Recession.
                                                                     What are you hearing from small businesses about the overall
                                                                  impact of tariffs on their businesses?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your questions.




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                                                                    One of the key duties of the Office of Advocacy—in fact, it was
                                                                  the first one, even before the RFA—is economic research. And I ap-
                                                                  preciate your pointing to some of the statistics. That is something
                                                                  we try to track very carefully.
                                                                    One of the things that we have noticed, very large increase in
                                                                  new business applications in 2025, and we know that is essential
                                                                  for innovation. The new companies, not just small ones, but the
                                                                  small new ones, the new small ones, whichever way you want to
                                                                  call it.
                                                                    And there is a real boom in that area, and we are researching
                                                                  to understand more about exactly what parts of our economy, what
                                                                  parts of the country that is occurring, but that is something we are
                                                                  tracking pretty closely.
                                                                    Mr. TRAN. Great. And what steps have you taken to make sure
                                                                  that you convey these concerns and these views with the White
                                                                  House and the administration?
                                                                    Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                    I am meeting with them regularly. As I mentioned in my testi-
                                                                  mony, they are reaching out to our office and saying: What input
                                                                  do you have? So this is happening literally every day.
                                                                    I guess, with the exception during the shutdown, it was a little
                                                                  quiet because the people on the other end of the phone weren’t able
                                                                  to talk. But my office was open.
                                                                    Mr. TRAN. Dr. Mulligan, according to the U.S. Census Bureau,
                                                                  over 30 percent of small businesses are minority-owned and 42 per-
                                                                  cent are owned by women.
                                                                    My first question to you is, how will the office, your office, ensure
                                                                  that the outreach will reflect the geographical and demographic
                                                                  composition of small businesses throughout the country?
                                                                    Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                    There are a variety of things we do. One of the keys was very
                                                                  quickly try to fill in these regional advocate jobs. And I understand
                                                                  Region 9 is empty. But as I said, as soon as I was constitutionally
                                                                  allowed to start working on that, I have been working on that. I
                                                                  would like to see all regions filled. And I want to visit, myself, all
                                                                  the regions.
                                                                    So regional is one thing that is pretty easy to track, and it is im-
                                                                  portant that I hear from all parts of the country, not just specific
                                                                  States or hot geographic areas. The whole country counts.
                                                                    Mr. TRAN. Great. And you are planning to have listening ses-
                                                                  sions or roundtables to listen to these folks all throughout the
                                                                  country?
                                                                    Mr. MULLIGAN. Yeah. Thank you for your question.
                                                                    Roundtables is one of our favorite activities. Also, just crossing
                                                                  thresholds. I have gone out to different parts of the country and
                                                                  visit a business. Go to the Iowa State Fair, cold call on businesses
                                                                  who are—small businesses who are there.
                                                                    So we try to use all the tools that we have because, again, it is
                                                                  something that a lot of the other agencies in Washington don’t
                                                                  have this outreach. So we need to do outreach well, and I appre-
                                                                  ciate your interest in it, and we are going to do everything we can
                                                                  to listen because that is what is really missing here in Washington.




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                                                                     Mr. TRAN. That is great. And I welcome you to come out to my
                                                                  cities out in southern California to listen to the small businesses
                                                                  and their concerns out there.
                                                                     Then my final ask of you is, can you commit to providing this
                                                                  Committee with a breakdown of your outreach efforts, including lo-
                                                                  cation, participant types, business sizes, sectors, and demographics,
                                                                  so that Congress can evaluate the effectiveness of your outreach
                                                                  and determine whether you are meeting the needs of the entire
                                                                  small business community?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I would be very happy for the entire Committee to be aware of
                                                                  what regions we are making contact with.
                                                                     Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan.
                                                                     And with that, Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                     Now, at this time, we are going to stand in recess because of the
                                                                  briefing we have at the CDC with Secretary Hegseth and Secretary
                                                                  Rubio.
                                                                     I ask that Members please return after the briefing to continue
                                                                  Member questions.
                                                                     [Recess.]
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The Committee will now come to order. I
                                                                  want to thank everybody for hanging in there with us. We will now
                                                                  resume Member questions under the 5-minute rule.
                                                                     I now recognize my friend from Maryland, Mr. Olszewski, for 5
                                                                  minutes.
                                                                     Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want
                                                                  to thank you, our Ranking Member, and Dr. Mulligan for today’s
                                                                  conversation.
                                                                     I also, as I mentioned, Dr. Mulligan, want to appreciate your out-
                                                                  reach to our Maryland fishermen. You mentioned the tie earlier in
                                                                  the briefing. So I do appreciate your outreach to us on that impor-
                                                                  tant issue.
                                                                     I am going to actually open my remarks this afternoon by ac-
                                                                  knowledging that I am a Democrat who is willing to admit that it
                                                                  was wrong and it is a mistake for the Biden administration not to
                                                                  name someone to fill your role in the past. And I think it is impor-
                                                                  tant that Members of our own parties are willing to do that.
                                                                     So just as I am willing to make that admission here, I know that
                                                                  we don’t have as many Members on the other side of this recess,
                                                                  but I think it is really important that Republican Members of this
                                                                  Committee and this Congress also be willing to acknowledge when
                                                                  there is a disconnect or disagreement with the Trump administra-
                                                                  tion. And so I just want to put that on the record.
                                                                     And I say all that because I know I often hear from small busi-
                                                                  ness owners who are impacted by misguided regulations that limit
                                                                  their ability to thrive in this economy.
                                                                     So we are looking for even the smallest of ways that we can
                                                                  make progress together. And, unfortunately, the Trump adminis-
                                                                  tration has in many plaices made costs go up—and not necessarily
                                                                  in small ways, but in massive, crushing ways.
                                                                     As we talked about earlier, tariffs was a huge issue we were dis-
                                                                  cussing, and the Center for American Progress estimates that be-
                                                                  tween April and September of 2025, small businesses paid about




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                                                                  $25,000 more per month for imports compared to those in the same
                                                                  period of 2024.
                                                                     Tariffs on key commodities like steel and aluminum have added
                                                                  new layers of red tape, not fewer. And while I appreciate the out-
                                                                  reach on the fisheries, this is an area where I feel like the Office
                                                                  of Advocacy could do better to substantively address these issues.
                                                                     Moreover, tariffs, as awful as they have been, are, sadly, not the
                                                                  only problem. The Republican majority of this Congress, with the
                                                                  full-throated support of President Trump, sat on the sidelines as
                                                                  tax credits to keep healthcare affordable expired.
                                                                     Now, why does this matter? It matters because half of all adult
                                                                  enrollees in the Affordable Care Act marketplace either own a
                                                                  small business or work for one.
                                                                     The Republican resistance to addressing these healthcare costs
                                                                  have led to, on average, a 75 percent increase in premiums. That
                                                                  is over $4,750 for the average American family.
                                                                     It is why I hope that my colleagues this week will join me in vot-
                                                                  ing to roll back this shortsighted Republican tax on hardworking
                                                                  Americans and small businesses by extending these credits.
                                                                     Students at the University of Maryland School of Business re-
                                                                  cently came together to survey the impact on federal policy changes
                                                                  on the Maryland business economy.
                                                                     When asked about the most significant challenges they faced as
                                                                  business owners in 2025, Maryland business owners said answers
                                                                  like DOGE, federal policy changes, and our own government work-
                                                                  ing against us to kill our industry.
                                                                     So we have some real challenges ahead. I look forward to work-
                                                                  ing with the Chairman and you to find legitimate solutions that
                                                                  are for the small business owner.
                                                                     Chief Counsel, I know earlier you mentioned advocating for busi-
                                                                  nesses. I guess my first question is, what, if anything, has your of-
                                                                  fice done to calculate the impact of tariffs on small businesses?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     The two big steps I have been engaged in my first 5 months are,
                                                                  number one, listening to the small businesses wherever they are,
                                                                  whatever they have to say, and then communicating that to those
                                                                  who make the rules.
                                                                     My office doesn’t make the rules——
                                                                     Mr. OLSZEWSKI. But do you have any anything quantified,
                                                                  though, that you are using in terms of advocating for those small
                                                                  businesses?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. A project—and I have only been here 5
                                                                  months—one of the projects I have been quite interested in is the
                                                                  revenue burden on small businesses. Believe it or not, there is not
                                                                  a summary statistic of that, and we have hired some very good peo-
                                                                  ple to work on that. We are not finished yet.
                                                                     And revenue consists of particularly the internal revenue, but
                                                                  there is an external revenue component to it too.
                                                                     Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Yeah. I hope that we would have that kind of
                                                                  data before the administration would choose to make those choices,
                                                                  and certainly want to support you so you have that kind of data,
                                                                  so you can argue against these tariffs that are hurting the average
                                                                  American business, the average American, in the same way that
                                                                  we know that these healthcare costs are crushing small businesses.




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                                                                     And I want to work with you to help quantify that so that we
                                                                  can advocate for solutions. Our healthcare system costs have also
                                                                  gotten out of control.
                                                                     But in the meantime, we have to have a solution to address the
                                                                  fact that these are really tax increases crushing our businesses and
                                                                  Americans across this country.
                                                                     I thank you again for your presence, look forward to working
                                                                  with you.
                                                                     And with that, Mr. Chairman, yield back.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                     And I would like to let everybody know that Representative
                                                                  Schmidt is running up the hallway.
                                                                     Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I am happy to take a few more minutes, if you
                                                                  want, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. And if you would like to take one more
                                                                  minute, I will give it to you.
                                                                     Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I appreciate that, sir. Thank you very much.
                                                                     I know another area where we have talked a little bit about are
                                                                  the reductions and the rollbacks to the Inflation Reduction Act.
                                                                  President Trump has chosen to suspend a lot of those. There have
                                                                  been particularly green energy businesses across this country who
                                                                  have seen that.
                                                                     I am just curious, Dr. Mulligan, what your engagement has been
                                                                  like with those affected industries, and what you are hearing, and
                                                                  how you are helping them navigate those rollbacks.
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Thank you for your question.
                                                                     I am not sure I have organized my interactions under different
                                                                  statutes like the Inflation Reduction Act, but one that does come
                                                                  to mind, again, the fishermen.
                                                                     Fishermen are so unbelievably regulated. And they have repeat-
                                                                  edly expressed to me concerns—environmental concerns—around
                                                                  the Inflation Reduction Act with especially the wind farms. And
                                                                  they are churning out hot water in places that are not supposed
                                                                  to be hot water, and it is hurting the whole fishing operation.
                                                                     And I think Secretary Burgum has been very quick to take action
                                                                  and to investigate that and stop any further damage to the fishing
                                                                  grounds due to wind farms.
                                                                     Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I appreciate that.
                                                                     I appreciate the extra time, Mr. Chairman.
                                                                     And, again, Dr. Mulligan, I will just say I look forward to work-
                                                                  ing with you to actually getting those quantifiable numbers around
                                                                  both the tariff impacts as well as the healthcare cost increases that
                                                                  we are trying to do something about this week.
                                                                     I thank you so much.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
                                                                     And do we have a Dr. Schmidt sighting, or did he fall down in
                                                                  the hall or——
                                                                     VOICE. I hope not.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, I will just take this time too to—
                                                                  okay, he is coming in?
                                                                     STAFF. He is not in this hallway. I don’t know which hallway
                                                                  he is in.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. I want to thank you for coming, to
                                                                  witness today. We appreciate it very much.




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                                                                     I am a small business owner myself. I am in the car business
                                                                  back in Texas. And regulations and all the things which both sides
                                                                  have talked about today are damaging to the industry, and we ap-
                                                                  preciate you continuing to speak up and fight for us very much so.
                                                                     All right. Okay.
                                                                     You want to say anything, Mr. Witness? You want to talk about
                                                                  those mulligans you get on the first hole or anything in closing?
                                                                     Mr. MULLIGAN. Well, thank you for your question.
                                                                     Small businesses are very appreciative that now there is bipar-
                                                                  tisan agreement that Advocacy is an important office, and the chief
                                                                  counsel role needs to be filled.
                                                                     And they are thrilled that I am out there with my people listen-
                                                                  ing to them. They feel heard. They feel like this is a real oppor-
                                                                  tunity for change. And everything your Committee has contributed
                                                                  to that process, we appreciate that.
                                                                     Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, thank you very much. We have a bi-
                                                                  partisan Committee pretty much on just about everything, and we
                                                                  just want main street to thrive.
                                                                     I want to thank you again for your being here today, your testi-
                                                                  mony.
                                                                     Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to submit ad-
                                                                  ditional materials and written questions for the witness to the
                                                                  Chair, which will be forwarded to the witness.
                                                                     I ask the witness to please respond promptly if that happens.
                                                                     No further business, without objection, the Committee is ad-
                                                                  journed. Thank you.
                                                                     [Whereupon, at 1:04 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]




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                                                                                                                      34

                                                                                                           APPENDIX




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                                                                                                                      99




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                       Insert offset folio 99 here 62510.066


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                                                                                                                  100




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 100 here 62510.067


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                                                                                                                  101




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 101 here 62510.068


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                                                                                                                  102




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 102 here 62510.069


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                                                                                                                  103




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 103 here 62510.070


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                                                                                                                  104




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 104 here 62510.071


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                                                                                                                  105




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 105 here 62510.072


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                                                                                                                  106




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 106 here 62510.073


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                                                                                                                  107




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 107 here 62510.074


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                                                                                                                  108




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 108 here 62510.075


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                                                                                                                  109




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 109 here 62510.076


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                                                                                                                  110




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 110 here 62510.077


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                                                                                                                  111




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 111 here 62510.078


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                                                                                                                  112




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 112 here 62510.079


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                                                                                                                  113




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 113 here 62510.080


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                                                                                                                  114




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 114 here 62510.081


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                                                                                                                  115




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 115 here 62510.082


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                                                                                                                  116




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 116 here 62510.083


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                                                                                                                  117




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 117 here 62510.084


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                                                                                                                  118




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 118 here 62510.085


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                                                                                                                  119




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 119 here 62510.086


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                                                                                                                  120




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 120 here 62510.087


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                                                                                                                  121




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 121 here 62510.088


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                                                                                                                  122




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 122 here 62510.089


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                                                                                                                  123




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 123 here 62510.090


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                                                                                                                  124




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 124 here 62510.091


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                                                                                                                  125




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 125 here 62510.092


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                                                                                                                  126




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 126 here 62510.093


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                                                                                                                  127




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 127 here 62510.094


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                                                                                                                  128




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 128 here 62510.095


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                                                                                                                  129




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 129 here 62510.096


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                                                                                                                  130




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 130 here 62510.097


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                                                                                                                  131




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 131 here 62510.098


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                                                                                                                  132




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 132 here 62510.099


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                                                                                                                  133




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 133 here 62510.100


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                                                                                                                  134




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 134 here 62510.101


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                                                                                                                  135




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 135 here 62510.102


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                                                                                                                  136




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 136 here 62510.103


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                                                                                                                  137




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 137 here 62510.104


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                                                                                                                  138




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 138 here 62510.105


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                                                                                                                  139




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 139 here 62510.106


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                                                                                                                  140




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 140 here 62510.107


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                                                                                                                  141




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 141 here 62510.108


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                                                                                                                  142




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 142 here 62510.109


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                                                                                                                  143




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 143 here 62510.110


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                                                                                                                  144




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 144 here 62510.111


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                                                                                                                  145




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 145 here 62510.112


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                                                                                                                  146




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 146 here 62510.113


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                                                                                                                  147




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 147 here 62510.114


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                                                                                                                  148




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 148 here 62510.115


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                                                                                                                  149




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 149 here 62510.116


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                                                                                                                  150




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 150 here 62510.117


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                                                                                                                  151




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 151 here 62510.118


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                                                                                                                  152




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 152 here 62510.119


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                                                                                                                  153




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 153 here 62510.120


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                                                                                                                  154




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 154 here 62510.121


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                                                                                                                  155




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 155 here 62510.122


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                                                                                                                  156




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 156 here 62510.123


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                                                                                                                  157




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 157 here 62510.124


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                                                                                                                  158




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 158 here 62510.125


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                                                                                                                  159




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 159 here 62510.126


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                                                                                                                  160




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 160 here 62510.127


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                                                                                                                  161




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 161 here 62510.128


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                                                                                                                  162




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 162 here 62510.129


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                                                                                                                  163




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 163 here 62510.130


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                                                                                                                  164




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 164 here 62510.131


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                                                                                                                  165




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 165 here 62510.132


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                                                                                                                  166




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 166 here 62510.133


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                                                                                                                  167




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 167 here 62510.134


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                                                                                                                  168




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 168 here 62510.135


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                                                                                                                  169




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 169 here 62510.136


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                                                                                                                  170




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 170 here 62510.137


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                                                                                                                  171




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 171 here 62510.138


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                                                                                                                  172




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 172 here 62510.139


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                                                                                                                  173




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 173 here 62510.140


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                                                                                                                  174




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 174 here 62510.141


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                                                                                                                  175




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 175 here 62510.142


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                                                                                                                  176




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 176 here 62510.143


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                                                                                                                  177




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 177 here 62510.144


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                                                                                                                  178




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 178 here 62510.145


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                                                                                                                  179




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 179 here 62510.146


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                                                                                                                  180




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 180 here 62510.147


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                                                                                                                  181




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 181 here 62510.148


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                                                                                                                  182




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 182 here 62510.149


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                                                                                                                  183




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 183 here 62510.150


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                                                                                                                  184




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 184 here 62510.151


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                                                                                                                  185




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 185 here 62510.152


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                                                                                                                  186




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 186 here 62510.153


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                                                                                                                  187




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 187 here 62510.154


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                                                                                                                  188




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 188 here 62510.155


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                                                                                                                  189




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 189 here 62510.156


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                                                                                                                  190




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 190 here 62510.157


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                                                                                                                  191




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 191 here 62510.158


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                                                                                                                  192




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 192 here 62510.159


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                                                                                                                  193




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 193 here 62510.160


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                                                                                                                  194




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 194 here 62510.161


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                                                                                                                  195




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 195 here 62510.162


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                                                                                                                  196




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 196 here 62510.163


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                                                                                                                  197




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 197 here 62510.164


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                                                                                                                  198




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 198 here 62510.165


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                                                                                                                  199




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 199 here 62510.166


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                                                                                                                  200




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 200 here 62510.167


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                                                                                                                  201




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 201 here 62510.168


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                                                                                                                  202




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 202 here 62510.169


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                                                                                                                  203




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 203 here 62510.170


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                                                                                                                  204




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 204 here 62510.171


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                                                                                                                  205




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 205 here 62510.172


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                                                                                                                  206




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 206 here 62510.173


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                                                                                                                  207




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 207 here 62510.174


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                                                                                                                  208




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 208 here 62510.175


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                                                                                                                  209




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 209 here 62510.176


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                                                                                                                  210




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 210 here 62510.177


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                                                                                                                  211




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 211 here 62510.178


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                                                                                                                  212




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 212 here 62510.179


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                                                                                                                  213




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 213 here 62510.180


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                                                                                                                  214




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 214 here 62510.181


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                                                                                                                  215




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 215 here 62510.182


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                                                                                                                  216




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 216 here 62510.183


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                                                                                                                  217




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 217 here 62510.184


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                                                                                                                  218




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 218 here 62510.185


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                                                                                                                  219




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 219 here 62510.186


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                                                                                                                  220




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 220 here 62510.187


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                                                                                                                  221




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 221 here 62510.188


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                                                                                                                  222




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 222 here 62510.189


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                                                                                                                  223




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 223 here 62510.190


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                                                                                                                  224




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 224 here 62510.191


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                                                                                                                  225




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 225 here 62510.192


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                                                                                                                  226




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 226 here 62510.193


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                                                                                                                  227




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 227 here 62510.194


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                                                                                                                  228




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 228 here 62510.195


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                                                                                                                  229




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 229 here 62510.196


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                                                                                                                  230




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 230 here 62510.197


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                                                                                                                  231




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 231 here 62510.198


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                                                                                                                  232




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 232 here 62510.199


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                                                                                                                  233




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 233 here 62510.200


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                                                                                                                  234




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 234 here 62510.201


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                                                                                                                  235




                                                                                                                      Æ




SBR125-LTP with DISTILLER                                                                                                                                      Insert offset folio 235 here 62510.202


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