Transcribed Interview of Arthur Plews — Committee on Small Business, U.S. House of Representatives

Summary

A transcript of the transcribed interview of Arthur Plews conducted by the Committee on Small Business, U.S. House of Representatives, on Tuesday, June 11, 2024, in Room 4400, O'Neill House Office Building. The general counsel for the majority staff states that Chairman Williams requested the interview as part of the committee's oversight of the Small Business Administration's voter registration efforts. The agreed scope includes matters discussed in a released video, travel of senior SBA officials, the MOU with Michigan and Executive Order 14019. Opening questions cover the witness's SBA roles, including policy advisor, Chief Innovation Officer and Deputy Chief of Staff from January 2021. The transcript closes with Plews Exhibit A, emails dated May 23, 2024 read into the record by the witness's counsel, and the interview concluding at 3:53 p.m.

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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS,

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U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

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WASHINGTON, D.C.

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INTERVIEW OF:

ARTHUR PLEWS

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Tuesday, June 11, 2024

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Washington, D.C.

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The interview in the above matter was held in Room 4400, O'Neill House Office
Building, commencing at 9:57 a.m.
Present:

Representative Meuser.


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Appearances:

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For the COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS:

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ALEX ALBRECHT, COUNSEL

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CHRISTOPHER ECKHARDT, LAW CLERK

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LAUREN HOLMES, GENERAL COUNSEL

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RYAN LAMBERT, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER

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MATTHEW PERRICONE, LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR FOR REPRESENTATIVE MEUSER

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MATT VANHYFTE, DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS

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RENATA BECA-BARRAGAN, MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL

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ELLEN HARRINGTON, MINORITY DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR

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For the SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION:

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JAIME CANTLON, ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL

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DAVID FISHMAN, DEPUTY ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL

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FOR LITIGATION

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GEORGE HOLMAN, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR FOR

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CONGRESSIONAL AND LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS

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CHRISTINE NELL, TRIAL ATTORNEY, OFFICE OF LITIGATION

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THERESE MEERS, GENERAL COUNSEL


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For ARTHUR PLEWS:

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JOSHUA LEVY, ESQ.

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Levy Firestone Muse

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900 17th Street NW, Suite 1200

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Washington, D.C. 20006

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Ms. Holmes.

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This is a transcribed interview of Mr. Arthur Plews, conducted by the Committee

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on Small Business under the authority granted under House rule X and the rules of the

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Committee on Small Business.

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Okay.

I think we can go on the record.

This interview was requested by Chairman Williams as part of the committee's
oversight of the Small Business Administration's voter registration efforts.

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Can the witness please state their name and spell their last name for the record?

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

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Mr. Plews, my name is Lauren Holmes.

Arthur Plews, P-l-e-w-s.
Thank you.

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staff on the Committee on Small Business.

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voluntarily.

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I'm the general counsel for the majority

I want to thank you for coming in today

We recognize that that is a big feat, and we appreciate it.

Under the committee's rules, you are allowed to have an attorney present to

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advise you during this interview.

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personal capacity present with you today?

Do you have an attorney representing you in a

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

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Mr. Levy.

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Ms. Holmes.

Is there also an attorney present representing the agency today?

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Ms. Meers.

There is.

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Ms. Holmes.

Can the counsels please identify themselves?

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Ms. Meers.

Therese Meers, agency counsel.

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Mr. Cantlon.

Jaime Cantlon, agency counsel.

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Mr. Fishman.

David Fishman, Deputy Associate General Counsel for Litigation.

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Ms. Holmes.

And the final Small Business Administration member?

I do.
Can the attorney please identify himself for the record?

Joshua Levy, counsel for the witness.


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Mr. Holman.

George Holman, Associate Administrator for Congressional and

Legislative Affairs.

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Ms. Holmes.

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For the record, starting with majority staff, can the additional staff members

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Thank you.

please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation?
Mr. Eckhardt.

Christopher Eckhardt, law clerk for the majority staff of the

committee.
Mr. Albrecht.

Alex Albrecht, counsel for the majority staff on the Small Business

Committee.

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Mr. VanHyfte.

Matt VanHyfte, director of communications for the majority.

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Mr. Lambert.

Ryan Lambert, professional staff member for the majority.

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Ms. Beca-Barragan.

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Ms. Harrington.

Renata Beca, senior counsel with the minority.

Ellen Harrington, deputy staff director, House Small Business

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Committee minority staff.

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Ms. Holmes.

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Mr. Plews, before we begin, I'm going to go over some of the ground rules for this

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Thank you all.

interview.

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As previously agreed to by counsel for Mr. Plews and majority staff, the scope of

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this interview is anything discussed in the video released by James O'Keefe on April 17,

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2024; official and political travel of senior SBA officials; voter registration efforts by the

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SBA or senior SBA officials, including but not limited to the MOU with Michigan and

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Executive Order 14019; senior SBA officials' or SBA's participation in political campaigns;

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political activity at the SBA or by senior SBA officials.

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The way this interview will proceed is as follows:

The majority and minority staff

will alternate asking you questions, 1 hour per side per round, until each side is finished


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with their questioning.

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minority staff will have an hour to ask questions.

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in this manner until both sides have no more questions.

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The majority staff will begin and proceed for an hour, and then
We will then alternate back and forth

If either side is in the middle of a specific line of questions, they may choose to

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end a few minutes past an hour to ensure completion of that specific line of questioning,

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including any pertinent followups.

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In this interview, while one member of each staff for each side may lead the
questioning, additional staff may ask questions.
As you can see, there's a court reporter taking down everything I say and

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everything you say to make a written record of this interview.

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clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you has finished each question before you

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begin your answer, and the staff will wait until you finish your response before

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proceeding to the next question.

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For the record to be

Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please

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speak clearly, concisely, and slowly.

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answers, such as nodding or shaking your head, so it's important that you answer each

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question with an audible, verbal answer.

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Do you understand?

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

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Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal

I do.
We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and

truthful manner possible so we will take our time.
If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us
know, and we will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions.

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Do you understand?

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Mr. Plews.

I do.


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Ms. Holmes.

If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you

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are unable to recall the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of

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those conversations or events to the best of your recollection.

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a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts

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of conversations that you do recall.

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Do you understand?

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

If you recall only part of

I do.
Although you are here voluntarily and we will not swear you in, you

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are required, pursuant to 18 U.S.C., section 1001, to answer questions from Congress

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truthfully.

This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in an interview.

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Do you understand?

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

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I do.
If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be

subject to criminal prosecution.

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

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today's interview?

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

Do you understand?

I do.
Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in

No.
Please note that if you wish to assert a privilege over any

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statement today, that assertion must apply within the rules of the Committee on Small

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Business.

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For the chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements,

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witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the

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reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance.

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Do you understand?


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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

I do.
Ordinarily we take a 5-minute break at the end of each hour of

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questioning, but if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know;

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we're happy to accommodate.

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we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take the break.

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Do you understand?

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

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Mr. Plews.

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Ms. Holmes.

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However, to the extent that there is a pending question,

I do.
Do you have any other questions before we begin?
No.
Okay.

The time is now 10:01, and the majority will begin their

questioning.

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EXAMINATION

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BY MS. HOLMES:

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Q

Mr. Plews, how long have you worked at the SBA?

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A

I have served at the SBA twice.

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Q

Total time is fine.

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A

About 6 years total.

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Q

So your first stint, can you remember what years those were?

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2014 to 2017.

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Q

And what was your role then?

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A

I started as a policy advisor.

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Q

What does that role entail?

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A

At the time, that role entailed exploring new ideas and initiatives for the

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agency.

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Do you mean my total time in service or at

each --


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Okay.

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I held one other position after policy advisor.

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Okay.

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Chief Innovation Officer.

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Okay.

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Primarily working on technology initiatives for the agency.

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Q

Okay.

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A

Second stint began in January of 2021.

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Q

Okay.

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I began as our Deputy Chief of Staff.

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In 2021.

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January 2021.

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Q

Okay.

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I'm not sure exactly.

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Q

Was there a little overlap in there?

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No.

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Q

Oh, okay.

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A

I just don't remember the exact date.

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Q

That's okay.

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Prior to the SBA, where did you work?

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The first time?

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Q

Yeah.

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McKinsey & Company.

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Q

Okay.

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A

I was an associate.

And then you went to private practice?

What was that?

And what did that position entail?

And then your second stint at the SBA started?

And that's the one you currently hold?

Do you remember what month?

And when were you promoted to Chief?
I believe it was around May of 2022.

And what did you do there?

Is that --


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And then in your break between your two stints, what were you doing?

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I worked at a technology company called Stripe.

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Okay.

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I started on the business operations team.

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Q

Okay.

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Have you ever worked for any campaigns?

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A

Yes, I have.

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Q

Can you tell us which ones?

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A

I worked for two congressional campaigns that were sequential, a special

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What did you do for them?

election and then a primary, for Congressman Andre Carson from Indianapolis.

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I've also volunteered for campaigns.

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Q

Okay.

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I'm not sure I can recall them all off the cuff.

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I recall volunteering for President Obama's 2008 election campaign; Senator Joe

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Donnelly's campaign; I'm unsure of the year; Senator Clinton's campaign for President;

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and President Biden's campaign for President in 2020.

Which campaigns did you volunteer for?

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Q

When you were policy advisor, that was, you said, 2014 to 2016?

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A

I'm unsure of the date when I switched from policy advisor to Chief

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Innovation Officer.

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Q

Okay.

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A

They varied.

What were your day-to-day responsibilities as policy advisor?
It included exploring new ways to use data about small

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businesses, exploring new ways of providing capital to institutions that might lend to

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small businesses, tracking data about small businesses.

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Q

Did that ever involve events or prep for events?

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By "events," do you mean things that members of the public would come to


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or -- do you just want to be more specific?

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SBA-sponsored events.

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I don't recall working on events in that role, but I may have.

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Q

Okay.

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And then you moved up to Chief Innovation Officer?

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That's right.

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Q

How did your day-to-day responsibilities change?

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A

I'm not sure I can recall exactly how they changed the moment I

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transitioned, but as Chief Innovation Officer, I worked on a number of different

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technology-related projects.

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agency.

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Q

Okay.

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Which one?

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Q

The Chief Innovation Officer.

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A

It was a political position.

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Political.

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What precipitated you to leave that office, or that position?

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I served until the last day of President Obama's term in office.

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Q

Okay.

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How many people did you oversee as the CIO?

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A

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And just as a point of clarification, the agency uses "CIO" to refer to our Chief

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For instance, we created a digital service team at the

Was that a political position or a career one?

Okay.

I don't recall having direct reports as the Chief Innovation Officer.

Information Officer, a different position.

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Q

Okay.

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A

We don't have the position currently filled.

How does it refer to the one you were in?
And I --


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Q

Oh, okay.

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-- don't recall that there was a systematic abbreviation that everyone used.

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Okay.

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When you were Deputy Chief of Staff, that was January '21, you said?

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That's when I started, yes.

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Okay.

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A

I like the mission of the SBA.

What made you want to come back to the SBA?
I like working in economic policy.

I was

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interested in rejoining the administration generally, and I was aware that the

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now-Administrator had been nominated to be the Administrator, and I was interested in

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working with her again.

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"Again."

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She and I served at the same time during President Obama's term.

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Q

Okay.

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Who hired you?

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For which job?

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For Deputy Chief.

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I had conversations with someone working for the Presidential transition and

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with the Administrator.

You had worked with her before?

Do you remember?

I believe, officially, the agency hired me.

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Q

Okay.

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I worked primarily on policy and operations.

What were your day-to-day responsibilities as the Deputy Chief?
At the time I was Deputy Chief

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of Staff, the agency was still implementing some of our very large pandemic relief

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programs, and so those took up the bulk of my time.

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Q

Did you ever work on events?

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I don't recall working on events.

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Q

Okay.

No, I can't recall doing so.

So the operations side of your Deputy Chief role, what did that


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entail?

What was covered under that?
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I don't know that there's a firm delineation between policy and operations,

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but that could include something like how many staff are allocated to what type of

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processing for what type of program.

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Q

Okay.

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A

I don't recall playing a role in scheduling while Deputy Chief of Staff.

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Q

Okay.

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Did it involve scheduling?

The policy side was that you made recommendations to the

Administrator on policy?
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Or how did that look?

Yes, I would make recommendations to the Administrator.

I worked with

other agency officials on how our program should look.

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"Policy" is also a term that can encompass many things.

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Q

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Who was the Chief when you were Deputy?

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His name is Antwaun -- oh, sorry, this is when I was Deputy Chief of Staff?

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Q

Uh-huh.

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Antwaun Griffin.

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Q

Why did they leave?

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I don't know, actually.

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Q

Okay.

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A

I believe I was Acting Chief of Staff for a period of time before officially taking

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I can understand that.

Did you take over right after he left?

the position.

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Q

Do you remember how long that went on?

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I don't.

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Q

Okay.

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So you became Chief of Staff.

What were your daily responsibilities, and how did


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they change?

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A

As Chief of Staff, I supervised a variety of people in the Office of the

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Administrator and then I also supervised a variety of office heads.

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significant change.

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What do you mean when you say you supervised the office heads?

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They are my direct reports.

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Q

And that's all of the offices, like Capital Access, Disaster --

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Not all of them, but some of them.

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Q

Do you remember which ones?

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I'm not sure I could remember all of them.

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that would help.

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Q

Yeah.

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Office of Capital Access, Office of Communications and Public Liaison, Office

That was the most

I could give some examples if

Examples would be good.

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of Entrepreneurial Development, Office of Investment and Innovation, our Acting Chief

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Operating Officer, Congressional and Legislative Affairs, Government Contracting and

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Business Development, General Counsel.

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And there have been changes over time.

I currently supervise the head of our

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Office of Women's Business Ownership; not sure if I did at the moment I took over as

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Chief of Staff.

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Q

Okay.

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A

It varies depending on the size of the office.

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How often do you meet with each of those heads?
I'm not sure there's a

consistent number across all of them.

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Q

Okay.

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A

Over my term of Chief of Staff, I'd say probably the head of the Office of

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Who's the one you meet with most often?

Capital Access, but I'm not sure exactly.


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Q

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How often do you meet with the Administrator?

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A

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Okay.

Maybe an average of once a day to once every 2 days.

It depends a great

deal on whether the Administrator is in the office or traveling.

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Q

Do you have set meetings with her, or is it just as they can occur?

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A

I have set meetings with her.

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Q

You said in your role as Deputy Chief of Staff you did some policy advising in

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that position.

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A

I do.

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Q

You have to kind of rely on the agency heads -- the office heads.

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For her scheduling, I assume she has a scheduler in charge of that?

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A

She does.

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Q

Okay.

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A

I do.

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Q

Do you have any control over her schedule or what meetings she takes?

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A

I wouldn't categorize it as "control."

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into that.

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Q

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We also will connect ad hoc.

Do you still do that in the Chief of Staff position?
I have less time for that now.

Okay.

Sorry.

And do you work with the scheduler?

I have the opportunity to give input

When you say "input," do you just mean "I think you should take

this" or "not take this"?

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Either making a recommendation to her or a recommendation to other staff.

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Q

Okay.

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A

As a general matter, do I join meetings with her often?

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Q

Uh-huh.

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A

Could you categorize "often" just so I'm sure I'm aligned with you?

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Q

More than once a week?

Do you join meetings with her often?


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Yes, I'd say I average more than once a week.

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Q

Okay.

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Do you let her do meetings on her own more often, or do you join

her on meetings more often?
Mr. Levy.

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When you say "do you let her," what do you mean by that?

BY MS. HOLMES:

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Q

Does she go to meetings by herself or do you go with her more often?

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A

I'm not sure I have a number for that.

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Hmm.

I don't typically go with her

to external engagements.

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Q

Okay.

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A

If those are categorized as meetings, I'm not sure.

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I am more likely to be present in an internal-facing meeting, but I'm not in all of

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them, so I'm also not sure about that.

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Q

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Do you travel with the Administrator?

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A

Rarely.

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Q

Rarely.

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A

I can recall traveling to the same event or conference at the same time as

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her two times.

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Q

And that's over your tenure as Chief?

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A

That's inclusive of being Deputy Chief of Staff as well.

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Q

Okay.

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You said "conference or event."

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A

Okay.

That's okay.

What's "rarely"?

Do you remember those conferences or events?

One was the agency's field operations conference.

That's where we bring

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together the leadership of our district offices that are spread around the country, typically

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annually.

The other was the Reservation Economic Summit, which is a Native American


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business conference.

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Q

Do you remember what years those were?

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A

I've been to those conferences twice, each during this administration.

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I

don't remember the years that I overlapped with the Administrator, I apologize.

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Q

That's okay.

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A

I believe it was once at each, but it may have -- I can only recall once at each.

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Q

Okay.

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You said you don't attend external meetings with her, just internal ones.

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that right?

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Not typically.

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Q

Not typically.

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Do you remember any particular external-entity events or

meetings that you attended with her?

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A

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Summit.

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Q

When was that?

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A

Um --

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Q

About.

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A

I wish I knew, I'm sorry.

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Q

Okay.

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A

-- but I don't know the exact date.

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Q

In the last 2 years, would you say?

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A

Yeah, sometime since 2022.

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Q

Okay.

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A

The roundtable and the restaurant visit?

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I heard

On the trip when I was -- we both attended the Reservation Economic
I also attended a small-business roundtable and a visit to a restaurant with her.

I believe it was recently after becoming Chief of

Staff --

Do you remember where it was?


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Q

Uh-huh.

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A

Yes.

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Q

Okay.

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Do you ever attend events and speak in your official capacity?

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A

I have done that in the past.

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Q

Do you remember what caused you to go to those particular events?

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A

I -- let's see.

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That was in Las Vegas, Nevada.

I don't do it very often.

At the conference, I spoke on a panel about SBA

programs -- the Reservation Economic Summit conference.

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The most recent version of this I've done that I can recall is helping to pass out

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awards to the winners of the National Small Business Week Awards in Rhode Island.

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And you may be familiar with that, but that's a week we hold once a year to recognize

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small businesses around the country.

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Q

And did you speak at it this year?

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A

I spoke at that one this year, yes.

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Q

Okay.

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A

I don't remember exactly what I said.

Do you remember what you spoke on?
Hmm.

I'm sorry, I don't remember.

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Most likely it was something along the lines of "congratulations," but I don't remember

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specifically.

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Q

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All right.

That tracks.
So there were a couple of names that came up as heads of offices.

I

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just want to run through them one by one and see if you remember working with them at

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all.

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The first one is Julie Verratti, the Associate Administrator of Office of Field
Operations.
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Did you ever work with her?
Yes.

I believe her last name is pronounced "Verratti" --


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Q

"Verratti."

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A

-- but, yes.

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Q

Thank you.

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That's helpful.

Do you remember what sorts of things you

worked with her on?

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A

The Office of Field Operations helped in some way with the Restaurant

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Revitalization Fund, which was one of the pandemic programs that I mentioned working

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on.

So I remember being in meetings with Julie about that.

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That's what comes immediately to mind.

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Q

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What about Victor Parker, the Deputy Associate Administrator of Office of Field

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Okay.

Operations?
A

I don't recall working with Victor on anything specific.

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operations conference this year.

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past, but nothing comes to mind on a specific project level.

He was at the field

I'm sure we've been in other meetings together in the

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Q

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What about Jennifer Kim, the Associate Administrator who's currently for the

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Okay.

Office of Field Operations?

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A

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Let me reflect for a second.

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I don't recall working on any specific project with Jennifer, but I do meet with her;

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Essentially the same as Victor.

I'm in meetings with her.

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Q

How often do you meet with her, would you say?

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A

I believe we currently are scheduled to meet biweekly.

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25

That probably

doesn't actually happen biweekly, given my calendar and hers.
I am also on the invitation for her check-in with the Administrator.

Similarly, I


20

1
2
3
4
5

am not always able to attend.
Q

Okay.

So you can't remember any specific projects.

If you're talking

biweekly, is there anything that you're working on on a regular basis?
A

She gives me updates about challenges and successes in the Office of Field

Operations, recommendations about things that we could do differently.

6

Jen was a big advocate for the agency popularizing more robustly our 70th

7

anniversary recently, for instance, which is something that's within her domain but also

8

an idea that would require utilizing the rest of the agency as well to partner.

9

Q

Have you worked with her on voter registration stuff?

10

A

No, I haven't worked with Jen on that topic that I can recall.

11

Q

Okay.

12

A

Which executive order is that?

13

Q

That's the voter registration one.

14

A

No, I can't recall working with Jen on that topic.

15

Q

Okay.

16

What about Executive Order 14019?

What about the recent memorandum of understanding with

Michigan on voter registration?

17

A

No, I don't recall working with Jen on that.

18

Q

Okay.

19

The next person is Scott Harriford.

20

He's the former SBA White House Liaison.

Did you guys ever overlap?

21

A

We did.

22

Q

Okay.

23

A

I am not sure of when Scott left the agency.

24

Q

That's okay.

25

A

He was our White House Liaison.

Do you remember for how long?
I'm sorry.

Do you remember what you worked on with him?
I believe he overlapped with the start of


21

1

my tenure as Chief of Staff, and so I believe we worked on considering candidates for

2

appointee roles at that time.

That's what I recall.

3

Q

Do you ever work with the regional administrators?

4

A

The regional administrators and I don't work together closely.

5

worked with them on any specific projects.

6

Q

Okay.

7

A

That I can recall.

8

Sorry.

I haven't

We've been in meetings together.

I haven't worked with them on any specific

projects I can recall.

9

Q

10

Are there any particular circumstances under which you would meet with them, or

11
12

Sounds good.

is it just general check-ins?
A

Nothing standard.

I think, as they are distributed, it's nice for them to get

13

to hear from the Chief of Staff from time to time.

14

circumstance, one will automatically engage with the regional administrators.

15

at a layer below me in the org chart.

But there's no, kind of, in this

16

Q

17

administrator?

18

A

I apologize.

19

Q

It's Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota.

20

A

Okay.

21

Q

It's Geri Sanchez Aglipay.

22

A

I don't know Geri Sanchez.

23

Q

Last name A-g-l-i-p-a-y.

24

A

Yes, "Aglipay."

25

Q

"Aglipay."

They're

For Region V, do you remember the last time you met with the regional

Could you refresh my memory as to which region is Region V?


22

1

A

And, sorry, what was the question?

2

Q

When was the last time you met with him?

3

A

It's -- Geri is a her.

4

Q

Her.

5

A

I'm sorry, I don't recall.

6

Q

Have you met with her, though, as far as you can recall?

7

A

Yes, I'm sure that I've been in meetings with Geri in the past.

8

Q

But never specifically just with her, as far as you can recall?

9

A

No, I don't recall doing any one-on-ones with Geri, and that would be

10

unusual.

11

Q

12

The next person is Kendall Corley, the Deputy Chief of Staff of External

But I don't recall doing it.
Okay.

13

Engagement.

14

A

Yes.

15

Q

Okay.

16

A

Kendall and I don't work together on specific projects.

Have you met with them?

What sort of projects do you work on?

17

updates on things that he's working on.

18

intergovernmental affairs.

He works on public engagement and

19

Q

When was the last time you met with him?

20

A

We're scheduled to have a weekly one-on-one.

21

week.

Kendall will give me

It does not happen every

Most likely, sometime in the past few weeks.

22

Q

23

And the last person I want to ask about is Jessica Reeves, the SBA Director of

24
25

Okay.

Public Engagement, Office of the Administrator.
A

How often do you meet with them?

I don't have a regular cadence for meeting with Jessica.

The Office of


23

1

Public Engagement has a regular cadence for briefing the Administrator.

2

that; I don't always attend.

3

meetings that I'm also in.

Jessica attends that.

I'm invited to

She may also be in other group

4

Q

You said there's a regular cadence.

5

A

I don't know exactly.

6

Q

Okay.

7

Does Tyler Robinson still report to you?

8

A

9

When you're on a detail inside the agency, my understanding is you have both a

How often?

I'm sorry.

Formally, in some sense.

Tyler is currently on a detail inside the agency.

10

home office and a receiving office.

11

but technically also still report to your home office, which would be my office.

So you report, day to day, to your receiving office

12

Q

So how often does he still report to you?

13

A

By "report," do you mean meet?

14

Q

Yes.

15

A

We don't currently meet, as he's on a detail to another office.

16

Q

Okay.

17

A

I don't know exactly.

18
19

How long did he report to you?
I believe he reported to me when he first started,

before his boss started, and then briefly after his boss's position was vacated.
Mr. Levy.

And just to clarify the record, when you asked about reporting to, you

20

defined it one way the last question, and I want to make sure you're having the same

21

meaning for this question, "meeting with" as opposed to "reporting to."

22

confusion.

23

Ms. Holmes.

24
25

Yeah.

There was a

He clarified it when he asked me back.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

So I think, yes, "reported to" and then "meeting" were the two delineations.


24

1

A

Yeah.

2

Q

Yes, uh-huh?

3

A

-- the question of how long has he reported to me, was with respect to the

4

The question I was just answering, though --

org chart, not with respect to meeting together.

5

Q

6

How many other special advisors report to you?

7

A

8

of at this time.

9

Q

Okay.

10

A

Tyler's primary duty was assembling the Administrator's briefing book.

11

Q

Okay.

12

A

He also assisted with other office tasks.

13

Q

Such as?

14

A

He assisted with scheduling tasks at some point in the past.

15

so much recently.

16

Q

17

on things?

18

A

Yeah.

I don't believe anyone else who reports to me has that title that I can think

Okay.

What does a special advisor do?

I don't believe

When he was not on detail, how frequently did you work with him

When he reported to me, when his boss's position was vacated, we had a

19

standing weekly one-on-one.

20

happened every week.

21

well.

Same as other meetings, I don't know that it actually

We were likely in a couple of other group meetings together as

I'm just not sure which.

22

Q

23

Administrator?

24

A

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

25

Q

Did he ever directly communicate with the Administrator?

Okay.

Did Mr. Robinson have a direct line of communication to the


25

1

A

And "directly communicate" meaning did he ever talk to the Administrator?

2

Q

Talk to her, email, Teams, text.

3

A

I would imagine so, but --

4

Mr. Levy.

5

I mean, you'd have to ask Tyler that question.

6

But go ahead.

7

Mr. Plews.

Based on your knowledge.

Yeah.

I can't recall at this time being copied on those

8

communications, so I -- specifically, I don't know.

9

BY MS. HOLMES:

10

Q

11

As the Chief of Staff, do you have any ability to filter who comes and talks to the

Okay.

12

Administrator?

13

A

14

question.

15

Q

16

I suppose I could attempt to do so.

Whether I would succeed is an open

So, if he wanted to have direct access to the Administrator by going into her

office and having a conversation with her, would he be able to do that?

17

A

Um --

18

Q

Theoretically.

19

A

I suppose, theoretically, anyone inside the building could do that.

20

Q

Okay.

21

We're going to actually go back to Ms. Reeves for a minute.

22

role?

23

A

24

Mr. Levy.

25

Which role?
Which one?

BY MS. HOLMES:

Is she still in the


26

1

Q

The Director of Public Engagement in the office of the SBA.

2

A

Yes.

3

Q

Okay.

4

A

No.

5

Q

Do you know who she reports to?

6

A

Kendall Corley.

7

Q

Okay.

8

A

Correct.

9

Q

Okay.

10

Is the Public Engagement Office the office that handles the third-party groups or

And as one of those directors, she is someone you oversee?
She reports to someone else.

And then Kendall reports to you?

11

external entities?

12

A

13

who work on that.

14

with third-party groups; many people could do that.

15

public engagement team does do.

So there isn't a public engagement office.

We have a couple of individuals

They are not the only ones in the agency who handle engagement
But that is something that the

16

Q

17

engagement?

18

A

Oh, anyone could do external engagement.

19

Q

Okay.

20

A

But -- well, yeah.

21

[Noise in the hallway.]

22

Ms. Holmes.

23

yelling about that.

24
25

To the best of your knowledge, what other people or offices handle external

We have former Governor Cuomo down the hall.

That's the press

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

All right.

So let's go into just some high-level questions regarding the


27

1

planning and marketing of small-business outreach events.

2

outreach events," that's SBA events or SBA in conjunction with their resource partners.

When I say "small-business

3

A

Okay.

4

Q

Mr. Robinson told us that, for each event, there is an initial meeting where

5

the event is discussed and then the team recommends a course of action.

6

Administrator ultimately decides which events she will attend.

7

Is that your understanding of how decisions are made about events?

8

Mr. Levy.

9

Ms. Holmes.

10

Mr. Levy.

11

Ms. Holmes.

12
13

Sorry, can you repeat that question?
Uh-huh.

There was a lot there.
Yep.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Mr. Robinson told us, for each event, there is an initial meeting where an

14

event is discussed and then the team recommends a course of action.

15

Administrator ultimately decides which events she will attend.

16

Do you agree with that characterization of how events are?

17

Mr. Levy.

18

Ms. Holmes.

19

Mr. Levy.

20

Ms. Holmes.

21
22

The

Was that in response to a question, that testimony?
Yeah.

Can you read the question, just for completeness?
I don't have it in front of me, so I cannot.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

If you don't want to answer, that's fine.

23

That's -- we can move on.

24

Mr. Levy.

25

The

You can decline to answer.

Can you -- when he -- that first sentence you read back, he was talking

about, I think I recall you saying an event?

Or events?


28

1

Ms. Holmes.

Yes, for event planning for small-business outreach events.

And,

2

as I defined, that was either put on by the SBA or in conjunction with the SBA's resource

3

partners.

4

Mr. Levy.

5

Ms. Holmes.

Okay.

And which part of that do you want to ask Mr. Plews about?

The part I just read back to you, that Mr. Robinson told us, for each

6

event -- which was already defined -- there is an initial meeting where the event -- again,

7

defined -- is discussed and the team recommends a course of action, and the

8

Administrator decides which events she will attend.

9
10

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

So I guess it's two parts:

Do you agree that, when there is an event being

11

planned, there is an initial meeting and the event is discussed, and then the team of

12

people at the SBA recommends a course of action?

13

A

No, that would not apply to all events.

14

Q

Okay.

15

A

Well -- and, sorry, I'm not trying to be contentious --

16

Q

No, you're good.

17

A

-- but the wording of the question was "events" generally.

18
19
20
21

Which ones do you think that it does not apply to?

There are many

events, under the definition you gave, that don't involve the Administrator at all.
Q

Okay.

So, for Administrator-involved events, is there a team that meets

initially to discuss and recommend whether the Administrator participates in an event?
A

There is a weekly scheduling meeting, where event invitations for the

22

Administrator are considered.

23

the Administrator attends, but it does have that function.

I don't believe that meeting considers every single event

24

Q

25

And he said that the Administrator ultimately decides which events she will

Okay.


29

1
2

attend.

Does that ring true?
A

The Administrator is the executive of a very large organization.

Much of

3

that time, she's going to be responding to a strong recommendation from a team

4

member.

5

going to go somewhere without knowing she's going there.

I would characterize it a little bit more as her having a veto power.

She's not

6

Q

Sure.

7

A

But that's a difference of degree.

8

Q

So do you help with those recommendations?

9

A

Sometimes.

10

Q

Are there times that you don't?

11

A

I cannot always make that meeting.

12

Q

Okay.

You said it's weekly?

13

A

Yes.

And, like every other meeting, sometimes doesn't happen.

14

Q

If you don't attend the weekly scheduling meeting, are there other meetings

15

held before the events occur that you attend?

16

Mr. Levy.

17

Ms. Holmes.

18
19
20

Can you rephrase that?

Sorry.

Or just repeat the question?

Sure.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Is there more than one meeting about an event before it occurs, as far as

you know?

21

A

We're sticking with events involving the Administrator --

22

Q

Yes.

23

A

-- or generally?

24

Q

Yes, events involving the Administrator.

25

A

It would -- in my understanding, it would depend on the event, how many


30

1

other meetings there were.

2

being necessary in others.

3
4

Q

I can imagine that not being necessary in some cases and

How many people are on the scheduling meeting, as far as you can

remember?

5

A

I don't know exactly.

6

Q

Okay.

7

Do you ever attend meetings about logistics for events with the Administrator?

8

A

Could you define "logistics"?

9

Q

Travel, timing, hotels, security.

10

A

Yes.

11

meeting.

12

Q

13

So we've been talking about events with the Administrator.

14

And those topics will come up to some extent in the scheduling

Okay.

events for the Deputy Administrator?

15

A

16

process.

17

Q

18

Mr. Levy.

19

Ms. Holmes.

20

Mr. Plews.

21

Do you ever work on

No, I don't play the same role in the Deputy Administrator's event planning

What role do you play with the Deputy Administrator?
As a general matter?
Uh-huh.
Oh.

We meet once a week -- and I apologize to keep adding this

qualifier -- but it doesn't always happen.

22

BY MS. HOLMES:

23

Q

Yep.

24

A

I don't report to the Deputy Administrator in the same way that I report to

25

the Administrator, so it is less of a role, but we discuss topics that we're both working on.


31

1

Q

Do you discuss events with him, like, things he's going to go do in that week?

2

A

We may have in the past.

3

Q

Okay.

4

Is there a different member of the Administrator's staff that helps coordinate the

5

It's not a common topic for that check-in.

events -- coordinate logistics, timing, travel --

6

Mr. Levy.

7

Ms. Holmes.

Administrator-attended events.

8

Mr. Plews.

Oh, there are many that work on that.

9

For which events?

BY MS. HOLMES:

10

Q

Is there a person that you work with specifically on any of that?

11

A

There's many.

12

Q

Can you name them?

13

A

Well, we have a security detail.

14

Q

Uh-huh.

15

A

We have budgetary staff and travel staff, advance staff, a scheduler.

16

would be the primary group who work on logistical details, like booking flights.

17

Q

18

I'm going to ask a couple of questions about training of SBA employees.

19

Did you receive training as an SBA employee -- yearly, annual training?

20

A

Training of any kind?

21

Q

Yeah.

22

A

Yes.

23

Q

To the best of your recollection, what kinds of training?

24

A

Ooph.

25

Q

Okay.

Okay.

We have many.

They


32

1

A

An example would be cybersecurity training.

2

Q

Uh-huh.

3

A

Yes, ethics training.

4

Q

Okay.

5

A

Hatch Act training, yes.

6

Q

When was the last time you received Hatch Act training?

7

A

It was recently.

8

Q

Did that training include the topic of mixed travel, as far as you can

9

Ethics?

Hatch Act training?

Last few months.

remember?

10

A

I'm sorry, I don't recall.

11

Q

Okay.

12

mixed travel?

13

A

I am aware she has engaged in mixed travel one time that I know of.

14

Q

One time?

15

A

I'm not sure of the exact date, but I believe it was sometime in the last

16

several months.

17

Q

Do you remember where she went?

18

A

She went to Michigan.

19

Q

And what was the official purpose, and what was the political?

20

A

I'm afraid I don't recall either of those.

21

Q

Either of them?

22

A

I must've been advised of it at some point.

23

Q

Okay.

24

A

No.

25

Q

Do you remember who from the SBA did?

As far as you can recall, does the Administrator ever engage in

What time was that?

Okay.

How do you remember that it was a mixed trip?

Did you attend that trip?


33

1

A

I don't know.

2

Q

If you don't attend an event, who staffs the Administrator?

3

A

It varies.

If it's -- well, generally speaking, there's two components that

4

would usually be with her.

5

security detail in some capacity.

6

other people too.

7

Q

Do you ever have to oversee the costs and/or reimbursements from these

9

A

Could you define "oversee"?

10

Q

We can make it two-part.

11

A

No.

12

Q

Who handles them?

13

A

We have a Director of Operations in our office who handles our budget, and

8

One would be her body staffer, and another would be the
Depending on the nature of the activity, there could be

trips?

Do you ever see the costs come through?

The costs are handled by other staff in the agency.

14

there's multiple people report to her.

15

As a unit, they handle --

And then there's a Chief Financial Officer office.

16

Q

Okay.

17

A

Nicole Nelson.

18

Q

Nicole --

19

A

Nelson.

20

Q

-- Nelson?

21

A

Uh-huh.

22

Q

For the mixed trip that you talked about to Michigan in the last few months,

23

Who's the Director of Ops?

Okay.

do you recall seeing the expense sheets come through or the costs come through?

24

A

I may have.

I'm sorry, I can't recall if I did or didn't.

25

Q

That's okay.

As a normal course of a business for a trip, would Nicole send


34

1

you a readout or an invoice or anything like that?

2

A

No, not as a normal course of business.

3

Q

Okay.

4

So, for the events that you do see anything related to costs, what

are the circumstances that lead to you seeing that?

5

A

Well, sometimes an individual team member will seek my approval before

6

engaging in a trip to confirm that I think it's a good idea.

7

cost estimate for them.

8
9

Sometimes they'll include a

Similarly, when the team is booking a trip for the Administrator, they will
sometimes make me aware of the cost estimate.

10

Q

Does that play a factor in whether or not the Administrator can attend an

12

A

Sometimes it could, yeah.

13

Q

Okay.

14

I think you might've answered this, but how often do you meet with the

11

15

event?

White House Liaison?

16

A

17

our cadence.

Oh.

We meet -- I think our scheduled check-in is twice a week.

So that's

18

Q

Okay.

19

A

I would say we usually are able to meet at least once a week in practice.

20

Q

Who's the current White House Liaison?

21

A

Destine Hicks-Lundy.

22

Q

Do you remember when they came on?

23

A

I believe she started slightly after I became Chief of Staff, but I'm not sure of

Q

Do you discuss specific projects with her?

24
25

Would you say that those generally occur?

that.


35

1

A

2

appointee hiring.

3

project outside of that, other than employee engagement.

4
5

Q

The bulk of my conversations with Destine are about appointees and
I'm not aware of Destine working on anything I'd categorize as a

If you were to have a meeting or something with the White House, would

that come through her?

6

A

Not necessarily.

7

Q

How would it come?

8

A

It could come through any number of different channels.

9

Q

Email to you?

10

A

That'd be one way.

11

Q

Okay.

12

All right.

13
14

We're going to turn to the April 17, 2024, video released by James

O'Keefe, containing Tyler Robinson.
Before getting into the questions, I want to set a baseline for this conversation.

15

In March 2024, the SBA issued a press release announcing the MOU in the State of

16

Michigan to register voters.

17

O'Keefe, showing Tyler Robinson discussing how SBA uses its time and resources to

18

support Democrat politicians and their elections.

Less than 1 month later, this video was released by James

19

One of the goals is to examine the veracity of the claims in the video today.

20

not saying they are true or false; we are just going to go through and discuss some of the

21

allegations that were made.

22

Are you aware of the video?

23

Mr. Levy.

I'm

Before he answers that question, I think as a matter of fairness to the

24

witness and the rule of completeness he be shown the video to which you're referring,

25

the complete video.


36

1
2
3
4
5

Ms. Holmes.

We don't have the complete video.

version that was released publicly.
Mr. Levy.

Then we would object to any questions about a piece of information,

attempted evidence, that's not complete.
Ms. Holmes.

Your objection is noted.

It's not a recognized objection, so we're

6

going to go ahead and move forward with the questions.

7

the witness not to answer the question.

8

Mr. Levy.

9

not showing him.

10
11
12

We only have the edited

I'm still going to ask them.

I don't know how he can answer a question about a video that you're

Ms. Holmes.

We can play the edited version that has been released publicly, and

that's the only information that we have about it.
Mr. Levy.

You are allowed to instruct

Would that satisfy your concern?

For the question, are you -- for the one question, are you familiar with

13

the video you're going to show him, if he's familiar with it, he can answer that question.

14

If there are other questions about the video, it's just not fair to any witness to ask

15

a witness about a part of a document or a part of a video or a part of an audio recording

16

and not show him the entire thing.

17

Ms. Holmes.

18

Mr. Levy.

19

Ms. Holmes.

And that would be true in any proceeding --

That's fine --

-- including here.
-- but we don't follow the Rules of Evidence, for one.

And, two,

20

again, we don't have access to the unedited video, and I'm not going to ask about

21

anything outside of the edited video, which we have possession of.

22

So, again, if your client would like to see the video -- it's 18 minutes long -- we can

23

sit here and go through that.

24

you can instruct your client not to answer.

25

voluntarily, and we appreciate that, but we can go back up to a deposition, and the

I'm still going to ask questions about it regardless.
But I will remind him that he is here

And


37

1

chairman can instruct you to answer any question that he feels is necessary to further the

2

investigation.

3

Mr. Levy.

4

Ms. Holmes.

5

Mr. Levy.

6

Ms. Holmes.

7

Mr. Levy.

8

Ms. Holmes.

Do you know if this video has been manipulated or edited in any way?
It appears that the video has been cut and edited.

Do you know that it's authentic?
We know as much as you do about the video.

You said that James O'Keefe is the person who released this video?
Correct.

We're not saying anything about him or his claims as a

9

journalist or his veracity as a journalist.

10

made by the direct report, Tyler Robinson, in the video.

11

Mr. Levy.

12

Ms. Holmes.

13

Mr. Levy.

14

Ms. Holmes.

15
16
17

history.

You know he pleaded guilty to entering a Federal building -I don't care about James O'Keefe.

-- without authorization?
Yeah, I'm sure that he did.

I have not looked up his criminal

That's not the point.

The point is that we are going to ask questions about this video, and you may
instruct your client to answer or not, but you have not stated a valid objection.

18

Mr. Levy.

19

Ms. Holmes.

20

We are just asking about the claims that were

The -If you would like to discuss further off the record, we can do that,

or you can state a valid objection.

21

Mr. Levy.

22

reclaim any time you want.

23

very clear, that this video was released by someone who's pled guilty to a Federal crime,

24

who's also currently under investigation, according to news reports, by the Westchester

25

County DA.

I just want to continue on the record for a little bit.

And you can

Just out of fairness to the witness and just so the record is

I just want to make sure that's clear.


38

1

Ms. Holmes.

2

Mr. Levy.

3

Okay.

And that's part of why I think asking questions about this video in

particular is very unfair to the witness.

4

Ms. Holmes.

5

client not to answer.

6

chairman, so it's up to you.

7

Mr. Levy.

8

Ms. Holmes.

9

Mr. Levy.

10

Ms. Holmes.

11

Can we go off the record for a second?

12

[Recess.]

I'm sorry that you feel that is unfair.

Again, you may instruct your

I'm still going to ask the questions under the direction of the

So you're going to play the video?
Would you like me to play the video?

Yeah, I would.
Okay.

We will do that.


39

1
2

[11:10 a.m.]
Ms. Holmes.

We can go back on the record.

I'm going to note at the top that

3

we agreed with private counsel not to ask specifically about the video, and we are not

4

going to play it.

5
6

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

So going into a couple of questions, I have a couple of names here I want to

7

run through with you like we did -- similar to what we did earlier and ask about your

8

interactions with them.

9

The first one is Ron Klain.

10

A

I do.

11

Q

Have you ever worked directly with him?

12

A

No, not that I can recall.

13

Q

No meetings, no emails?

14

A

I was on a video call once where he thanked, I believe, all the appointees in

15

Do you know who that is?

the administration for their service and wished us a happy holidays.

That's all I recall.

16

Q

Very nice.

17

A

I've been in one meeting that I can recall that Steve Ricchetti was also in.

18

Q

Anita Dunn?

19

A

I've been on one video call that I can recall that Anita Dunn was also in.

20

Q

Was that the same one as with Steve Ricchetti?

21

A

No.

22

Q

And Gene Sperling?

23

A

I've had interactions with Gene Sperling.

24

Q

To the best of your recollection, what were those interactions around?

25

A

American Rescue Plan programs.

What about Steve Ricchetti?

They're different.

Gene was, at the time, the American


40

1

Rescue Plan coordinator.

2

Q

Did you meet with him frequently?

3

A

Primarily, almost exclusively, over telephone or video conference.

4

we met frequently.

5

Q

6

Mr. Levy.

7

Frequently as in couple times a week?
Just -- is this within the scope of -- I mean, is there anything about

travel or voter registration, that sort --

8
9

Ms. Holmes.

Yeah.

So the video was actually in the scope of what you agreed

to discuss as well, and these individuals were named in the video.

10

Mr. Levy.

11

All right.

We'll see how this goes.

BY MS. HOLMES:

12

Q

Okay.

So phone, Skype?

13

A

Yeah.

Could you repeat the question.

14

Q

Yeah.

What were your interactions with Gene Sperling around?

15

But yes,

ARPA.

It was frequent.

Sorry.
You said

What was frequent?

16

A

17

When the American Rescue Plan programs at the SBA were sort of at their peak

I'm not sure I could quantify it, and it would have varied.

18

implementation need, it could have been once a week, once every couple of weeks.

19

I'm not sure I could give you an accurate average.

20

Q

Okay.

21

A

It varied.

22

Q

What about Jeff Zients?

23

A

I've been in a couple of group meetings with Jeff Zients that I can recall.

24

Q

Do you remember the topics?

25

A

One was a meeting with chiefs of staff, cabinet members, and deputy

But


41

1

secretaries that covered the government's in-office presence.

2

was a weekly cabinet call.

The other -- one other

I don't remember the topic Jeff Zients talked about.

3

And then he appeared at a leadership workshop that I was attending to give, sort

4

of, remarks, Thank you for coming, Here's a little bit about my career, that kind of thing.

5

And at a happy hour once.

6
7

Q

Okay.

To the best of your knowledge, does anyone at -- else at SBA work

with those individuals?

8

A

Could you repeat the individuals?

9

Q

Yes.

10

A

Currently -- well, I guess, could you clarify what "work with" means?

11

Q

Discussed things with related to official matters.

12

Mr. Levy.

If you know.

13

Mr. Plews.

Not aware of anyone engaging directly with Jeff Zients.

14

We'll start with Jeff Zients.

BY MS. HOLMES:

15

Q

And Gene Sperling?

16

A

At this time, I'm not aware of anyone engaging directly with Gene either.

17

Q

Okay.

18

A

I'm not aware of anyone engaging directly with Anita.

19

Q

Steve Ricchetti?

20

A

Same on Steve Ricchetti.

21

Q

And Ron Klain?

22

A

I'd be more confident that no one is engaging with Ron Klain.

23

Anita Dunn?

longer in the administration.

24

Q

You never know.

25

A

Still not sure.

I got to ask.

He's no


42

1

Q

We're going to talk a little bit about travel at the SBA.

We talked a little bit

2

in the last hour about how these events are planned for, and who is at these meetings.

3

Mr. Robinson in his transcribed interview told us that there is a specialized email

4

account by which they get, or receive event requests.

5

Mr. Levy.

6

Ms. Holmes.

7

Is it true that Mr. Robinson said that?
No.

BY MS. HOLMES:

8

Q

9

requests?

10

A

11

Is that true?

Is it true that there's a specialized email account that exists for event

There has been in the past.

utilized or utilized at all.

I am, embarrassingly, unsure if it is still heavily

But there have been in the past.

12

Q

Okay.

13

A

So they could be coming into that email address.

14

How do events come through now -- event requests?

directly to the scheduling team.

They could be coming

They could come to other members of agency staff.

15

Q

And the scheduling team was, like, director of operations --

16

A

No.

Right now would primarily be our -- the person I would colloquially

17

refer to as our scheduler.

18

advance.

19

members of agency staff.

20

But -- sorry.

21

I believe her official title is deputy director of scheduling in

But it could also be to other members of the front office staff, or to other

I think your question was what is the scheduling team?

the -- again, colloquially, the scheduler.

22

Q

Okay.

23

A

Bridget Gleason.

24

Q

Do you ever get event requests?

25

Mr. Levy.

What's her name?

For what kind of events?

She is


43

1

Ms. Holmes.

2

Mr. Plews.

3

The Administrator.
Very occasionally people do email me invitations for the

Administrator.

4

BY MS. HOLMES:

5

Q

Can you give an example of someone who emailed you?

6

A

I'm sorry.

7

the past.

8

Q

Okay.

9

A

For the Administrator?

10

Q

For the Administrator.

11

A

Yes.

12

Q

Do you remember --

13

Mr. Fishman.

14
15
16
17

I can't recall one at this time.

I'm confident it has happened in

Do you ever get event requests from the White House?

When you say "you," do you mean him personally or the agency?

I'm sorry.
Ms. Holmes.

Yeah.

Him personally.

Yeah, his agency email -- official email,

your inbox, and/or phone call to your official -Mr. Plews.

I have personally received an invitation for the Administrator from

18

the White House to an event.

19

Mr. Fishman.

20

Thank you.

BY MS. HOLMES:

21

Q

Okay.

22

A

I don't know that I could give an accurate number.

23

How many times?
I'm sorry.

Yeah.

don't know.

24

Q

Is it something that happens maybe monthly, weekly, yearly?

25

A

The best ballpark I could give would be once every 1 to 2 months.

I


44

1

Q

Can you remember any events that came through that way?

2

A

Yeah.

3

Most recent one I remember was the Second Gentleman's Office

wanted to do a small business event in New York during National Small Business Week.

4

Q

Okay.

5

A

And it was shared with me that they wanted to explore if the Administrator

6

could join.

7

Q

8

Have there been any requests from the White House to you for the

Administrator for events in Michigan?

9

A

I don't recall any.

10

Q

Did you or anyone else at the SBA, to the best of your knowledge, receive

11

event invitations from the White House for the Administrator to events in Michigan?

12

Mr. Levy.

13

Ms. Holmes.

14

Mr. Plews.

15

18

Are you asking him about anyone else?
To the best of his knowledge.
I'm sorry.

I was confused by the question.

Could you repeat that

again?

16
17

Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I don't recall.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Okay.

Yeah.

To the best of your knowledge, has anyone else at the SBA

received an invitation from the White House for the Administrator for an event?

19

A

In Michigan or just generally?

20

Q

In Michigan.

21

A

So -- I apologize.

Your question, as I understand it, is has someone other

22

than me received an event for the Administrator to go to Michigan and has that

23

event -- invitation been extended from the White House?

24

No, not that I'm aware of or that I can recall.

25

Q

But, again, maybe.

If you receive an invitation for the White House, do you treat it the same as


45

1

any other invitation that comes into your inbox?

2

A

Sometimes.

3

Q

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

4

A

Yeah.

5
6

It would depend on how shaped the invitation is; by which I mean,

how many details already exist about the event.
Q

Okay.

So if an event came through from a third party, said, You know, we

7

have this event going on, everything is already planned, we'd love for the Administrator

8

to come, that would be treated the same as if the White House said, Hey, we have this

9

event, we would love the Administrator to come, everything is already planned?

10

would be the same level?

11
12
13
14

A

They

If they -- if they both had a decent amount of information available about

them, they would likely both be discussed in that weekly scheduling meeting.
Q

Okay.

And in determining whether or not the Administrator is going to go

to that event, what factors do you guys weigh or consider?

15

A

Which event or what type of event are you talking about?

16

Q

Any event that comes in.

17

Mr. Levy.

18

Ms. Holmes.

19

Mr. Plews.

From the White House or anyone?
From any event that comes in for the scheduling meeting.
Logistics are a key component; where is it, can we get there, do we

20

have a conflict, do we have a pending or notional conflict, meaning something that is also

21

being considered for that day.

22

know, the distance, the time it takes to get people can create that, is in line with topics

23

that we at the agency are looking to lift up and draw attention to.

24
25

Even if there's not a scheduling conflict, travel, you

I'm trying to think if there's another category.
that I would say.

Those are the two big buckets

So the logistics and then, you know, does it -- does it align with


46

1

other -- does it align with topics we're looking to draw attention to.

2

BY MS. HOLMES:

3
4

Q

Is there a specific list of topics that you're generally looking to draw

attention to under this administration?

5

A

We have, in the past, created thematic lists like that.

I wouldn't say we're

6

currently operating under one, and I don't know if we ever have been rigorously following

7

one.

8

this month type plans.

But in the past, I am aware of us having kind of, Here's our desired message for

9

Q

Okay.

Did that change by month?

10

A

Yeah.

The one -- the context in which I'm referring to would be a different

11

message each month.

12

Q

13

administration?

14

A

You mean, which -- like, monthly messages?

15

Q

Yes.

16

A

I'm sorry.

17

Q

Okay.

18

A

You know, this is a logical one and almost certainly was, but I can't guarantee

Do you remember any of the ones that you've had under this

I don't remember specifically.

19

it.

20

would be a likely example.

21

National Small Business Week is a huge agency messaging opportunity, and so that

Q

But I'd -- I can't recall if that was in the -- you know, the list.

Tyler Robinson told us that there were -- because there are months that

22

celebrate different demographics and different people in America, they would usually

23

follow that sort of schedule.

24

verbally --

25

A

Sorry.

So Black History Month would be focused on -- can you

Did you have a question?


47

1

Mr. Levy.

2

BY MS. HOLMES:

3
4

Q

You were nodding along when I was saying that.

Does that mean you agree

that these themes tended to follow the national months for different groups of people?

5
6

Yeah.

A

Those are the kinds of themes that may have been in that list.

to which ones specifically were in that one.

7

I can't remember.

I also might slightly disagree with, it sounds like, how Tyler understood it.

8

least, in my view, the months are not rigorously adhered to.

9

do many events in a given month that have nothing to do with that theme.

10
11

I can't speak

Q

Okay.

At

By which I mean, we might
Sorry.

How do you determine whether or not an event is something that

the Administrator should consider going to versus the deputy or other SBA officials?

12

A

Well, the two categories I talked about before would be relevant to that.

13

she can't, because she has a firm commitment to something else, that makes it easy, if

14

that can't be moved.

If

15

The Administrator is typically going to be the most prominent messenger the

16

agency has available, and so, if it were something that we're looking, again, to promote in

17

some way, it makes sense to have the Administrator do it as opposed to another official.

18

And there's a third category I'd highlight, which would be some other official may

19

have a particular expertise in the topic in question that may align well with the event.

20

For instance, if it's a lending conference and it's going to get extremely technical, maybe

21

you want to send your foremost lending expert or just the head of your office of capital

22

access.

23

Q

24

priorities.

25

A

You said that the first bucket was logistics, the second was more SBA
Is that a fair characterization?
I would reframe it a little.

And I would say things the agency is looking to


48

1

lift up publicly.

2

Q

We have a lot of priorities that don't require much public messaging.

Sure.

For those that do require public messaging that you do want to lift

3

up, you said that in the past, you've had lists but you're not operating under one now.

4

that true?

5

A

That's my understanding.

Is

I don't know that there isn't some component of

6

the agency that's still working from some thematic guidance that they've created for their

7

own office or just as a handy reference guide.

8

one single list.

9

Q

10

So you don't have a list.

But my understanding is, no, that's not

Do you have a general idea of the types of

messaging that the Administrator would want to promote?

11

A

I can give example.

12

Q

Sure.

13

A

If we're launching a new product, by which I mean a new service the agency

14

is going to provide to small businesses, we're going to want to highlight that.

15

recently, the Administrator did an interview with CNBC about a working capital product

16

that we framed as a pilot that the agency is going to start delivering in the future.

17

So

When national disasters are happening, that is sometimes a thing the agency will

18

want to draw attention to so that small business owners and homeowners affected by

19

those disasters are aware of our offerings.

20

I'm sorry to keep coming back to Small Business Week, but there are -- there's

21

National Small Business Week and National Veterans Small Business Week as well.

22

There are marked moments in the calendar that happen at the same time every year

23

or -- I apologize.

24

year.

25

opportunities to make people aware of our services and help them know that we're here

I don't actually know if those weeks happen at the same time every

They happen each year, I believe.

And those provide -- general purpose, good


49

1

to help.

2

Q

This is the Small Business Committee.

So we, too, talk about National Small

3

Business Week in excess.

4

If a -- scratch that.

5

Does the White House ever discuss priorities that the SBA should have or

6

messages that the SBA should be pushing?

7

Mr. Levy.

8

Discuss it with --

BY MS. HOLMES:

9

Q

With you or anyone at the SBA, to the best of your knowledge.

10

A

I don't recall them discussing messaging priorities with me.

11

have the communications team.

12

them.

13

Q

Okay.

You know, we

I -- I don't know the nature of their discussions with

We've looked through a lot of the press releases that the SBA has

14

put out on a lot of the events that have happened under this administration.

15

things that comes up a lot is events surrounding American Rescue Plan Act, or the

16

Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act.

17

Were those things that you guys discussed to lift the message, if you will, at

18

events?

19

A

20
21

One of the

If I understand the question, you're asking if -- I'm sorry.

repeat that question?
Q

Yeah.

Could you maybe

I'm not sure I followed.

So those two pieces of legislation, the Infrastructure Investment and

22

Jobs Act and the American Rescue Plan act, you said that sometimes you craft messages

23

that you want to lift and/or elevate through the SBA.

24
25

Were those pieces of legislation ever part of the consideration of things that you
wanted, or the Administrator wanted to lift out of the SBA?


50

1

A

I apologize.

I'm not sure that I said we craft messages.

2

using that phrasing.

3

to do an event would be a messaging opportunity.

4

I don't remember

I do recall saying that a reason we would consider whether or not

And as a general matter, I believe it's accurate to say that we would want to

5

promote programs the agency delivered through the ARP, promote opportunities

6

available to small businesses through the IIJA.

7

event in which we did so, but that logically makes a lot of sense.

8
9
10

Q

I -- I can't recall a specific example of an

So for events that the SBA holds themselves that you guys decide you want

to do, is the process similar?
Do you have a meeting where everyone says, We think these three events would

11

be good things for us to hold, and then you have a discussion?

12

come to be for the Administrator?

13

A

14

similar?"

15

Q

16

Mr. Levy.

17

questions there.

Sorry.

What is the contrast you're drawing when you say, "is the process

Is it similar to what?
When you said events come from -Which question do you want him to answer?

18

Ms. Holmes.

19

Mr. Levy.

20

You asked a couple

I'll rephrase.

Thanks.

BY MS. HOLMES:

21

Q

22

invited to.

We have been talking about events that you were invited to, or the SBA was
So for events that the SBA decides to hold, is the process similar?

23

Mr. Levy.

24

Ms. Holmes.

25

Or how do SBA events

Similar to what?
To events for the last hour and 20 minutes we've been talking

about, events that she's been invited to.

Now I want to talk about events that the SBA


51

1

has held.

2

Mr. Plews.

I apologize.

I should clarify.

The last question you asked

3

about -- about those two statutes appearing in our events, I didn't understand you to be

4

asking about White House invitations.

5

generally.

6

I understood you to be asking about SBA

BY MS. HOLMES:

7

Q

Okay.

8

A

Would you like me to redo my answer under the guidelines --

9

Q

Let's do this first, and then we can --

10

A

-- in which you understood it?

11

Q

I'll reask.

12

A

Okay.

Okay.

And so this -- so the current question is, do we follow a similar

13

procedure for considering a White House invitation versus an agency event idea that

14

we've come up with on our own?

15

Q

Yes.

16

A

And it's involving the Administrator specifically.

17

I would say yes, with the caveat that some White House events do not have the

Okay.

18

necessary level of detail to go through that weekly scheduling process on the -- the

19

normal cadence is sometimes we have to make a faster decision.

20

Q

Okay.

21

A

Well, that meeting happens, ideally, once a week.

22

Q

So events could come in between a week from the White House?

23

A

Yes, or -- or more likely, they could come in without a lot of detail about

What's the normal cadence?

24

them.

25

that regular weekly cycle.

How long?

And so, the conversations might have to happen more ad hoc as opposed to on


52

1

Q

Okay.

For events that the SBA decides to hold, did the SBA prioritize the

2

legislative accomplishments like ARPA or the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act to lift

3

that messaging up?

4

A

5

what you mean?

6

Q

7

When you say "prioritize," do you mean -- could you help me understand

You said that the SBA -- bless you -- the SBA has chosen to lift up and/or

amplify certain messages.

So I've been using the word "prioritize."

Is that fair?

8

A

I -- it could be.

9

Q

In this instance, that's how I'm defining prioritize --

10

A

Sure.

11

Q

-- lift up or amplify --

12

A

Okay.

13

Q

-- the messaging.

14

A

And so, the question was, did the SBA lift up or emphasize the ARP or the

15

Infrastructure and Jobs Act in our messaging?

16

Q

Yes.

17

A

Our messaging as opposed to our events?

18

Q

Messaging, and then I was going to ask events next, but messaging first.

19

A

Okay.

I am unable to quantify how much we've talked about in messaging

20

those two statutes.

They're important, but I can't tell you now how often we've talked

21

about them.

22

So I apologize.

I think that's the best I can do with respect to how we prioritize

23

them in messaging.

24

Q

How do you know that they're important?

25

A

Well, the ARP provided a very significant amount of funding for SBA to


53

1

distribute and created, I think in its entirety, the Restaurant Revitalization Fund, which is a

2

major program for us.

3

that we want them to be aware of.

4
5

Q
important?

The infrastructure law creates opportunities for small businesses

How do you know that they're priorities -- how do you know that they're
Sorry.

6

A

The reasons I just said.

7

Q

So you decided on your own that they were important?

8

you about them being important?

9
10

Nobody talked to

A

Nobody talked to us -- sorry.

Are you asking if anybody has ever told me

that those two statutes are important?

11

Q

Uh-huh.

12

A

I can't recall anybody specifically saying it that way.

13

Q

How did you become aware of the two statutes?

14

A

I don't remember how I became aware of the Infrastructure Jobs Act.

I think it's apparent.

ARP,

15

I remember being part of -- well, I remember being part of some discussions about how

16

the restaurant program might come to be, which would have logically predated the ARP.

17

I don't remember when I first heard the term "ARP."

18

Q

Okay.

19

A

About the RRF?

20

Q

Uh-huh.

21

A

No, no.

22

Q

To the best of your recollection, who were they, or what offices were they

24

A

I remember NEC, the National Economic Council, and the Treasury

25

Department.

23

In those conversations, was that just with SBA officials?

There are other government officials.

with?


54

1

Q

2

that right?

3

A

Yes.

4

Q

Do you have any input into the briefing book?

5

A

I can submit something to the briefing book myself if I want to, or if I'm

6

asked to.

7

Q

Did you look at the briefing book before the Administrator saw it every day?

8

A

No, not as a matter of practice.

9

Q

Were there occasions that you did look at the briefing book before?

10

A

I may have.

11

Q

You said if someone asked you to provide something for the briefing book,

12

You talked briefly about Mr. Robinson being in charge of briefing books.

One of his primary duties was to assemble the briefing book.

Is that what you mean?

I can't specifically remember one.

you would do that, correct?

13

A

That's correct.

14

Q

Who would ask you to do that?

15

A

The Administrator could ask for a memo.

16
17
18

Q

Were there any specific requests from the Administrator for her briefing

books that were regular, something she wanted updated daily, weekly, monthly?
Mr. Levy.

20

Ms. Holmes.

22
23

Can you rephrase the question?
Yeah.

Had she told him anything or --

I said, was he aware of anything that she had requested be

updated daily, weekly, monthly.
Mr. Plews.

I'm aware of one thing.

There is some form of an economic data

submission that's regularly updated in her briefing book.

24
25

I could also decide it would be a

good idea that the Administrator have a memo and decide to do it myself.

19

21

Is

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Do you remember what data is included in that?


55

1

A

I remember the unemployment rates, the interest rate on a 7(a) loan.

2

one of our loan products.

3

other forms of economic data.

4
5

Q

I'm sorry.

It's

Nothing else is specifically coming to mind, but

Were you aware of any requests by the Administrator to have small business

ownership broken down by demographics?

6

A

I'm not aware of her requesting that, no.

7

Q

Are you aware of it being in the book?

8

A

I don't recall if it's in the book or not.

9

Q

We're going to go through a few statements, and I just want you to tell me if

10

you think that they are true or false.

11
12

The first one, "Administrator Guzman is the most traveled member of the cabinet,
and travels pretty much every week."

Is that an accurate statement?

13

A

I don't know.

14

Q

Since that was a two-parter, you don't know if she's the most traveled

15

member of the cabinet.

Do you know if she travels pretty much every week?

16

A

17

cabinet, correct.

18

allow me to say whether the statement about her traveling every week is true or false.

19

Q

I don't know -- I don't know if she's the most traveled member of the

Okay.

20

right?

21

but we can --

22

A

23

And I don't have a quantification for how much she travels that would

You said you overlap with her when she's in the office.

Or you -- you see her when she's in the office.

Is that

You said that at the beginning,

I think I said I'm more likely to be in meetings with her if she's in the office

than if she's on travel.

24

Q

How many days a week are you in the office?

25

A

I don't have a set schedule.


56

1
2

Q

Okay.

How many days a week would you say that you see the

Administrator at the office?

3

A

I'm sorry.

4

Q

Okay.

5

I -- I don't have a quantification for you.

Has the White House ever said, Only invite Democrat Members to

SBA events, not Republicans, as far as you are aware?

6

A

Not as far as I'm aware.

7

Q

So that's never come through from a phone call?

8

Mr. Levy.

9
10
11

He answered the question.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

To clarify, you have never heard that the White House has reached out and

said to invite Democrat Members only?

12

Mr. Levy.

13

Ms. Holmes.

14
15

He's answered that question.
I would like to clarify it for the record.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

You or anyone else at the SBA, including the Administrator or any staff, have

16

never heard a directive from the White House that said to invite Democrat Members, not

17

Republican Members, to SBA events?

18

A

I'm not aware of any such directive.

19

Q

Okay.

For SBA-sponsored events, and/or SBA events with their resource

20

partners, does the Administrator go to events and discuss about -- things about the Biden

21

legislative priorities, ARPA, Infrastructure and Jobs Act, for those areas?

22

A

Sorry.

23

Q

For any events that you're in.

24
25

What area?
So she's going to an event.

Does -- I'm

trying to think of how to rephrase this.
When the Administrator goes to events, does she talk about Biden legislative


57

1

priorities like ARPA or the Infrastructure and Jobs Act to show the areas that she has

2

traveled to, what the Biden economy is doing for those small businesses?

3

Mr. Fishman.

It's kind of a two-part question.

4

Mr. Plews.

I don't know.

5

I'm sorry.

BY MS. HOLMES:

6

Q

Okay.

7

A

I can't recall personally preparing talkers for her events, and it is not a

8

Do you ever prep talkers for her events?

regular part of my duties.

9

Q

Who does prepare the talkers for her?

10

A

Not sure if we use the term "talkers."

We have an office of

11

communications that prepares speeches for the Administrator.

12

agency may prepare or provide the content for -- I'll use the term "talking points."

13

sorry.

14

points for her as well.

Other offices in the

I'm not trying to litigate that -- may prepare talking points, or help prepare talking

15

Q

Do you ever look at those before the Administrator sees them?

16

A

I don't do so regularly.

17

Q

Do you ever provide edits to them?

18

A

Again, I don't do so regularly.

19

Q

Do you recall any event for which you did provide edits?

20

A

Could you specify the edits to what type of material?

21

Q

The talking points and/or the speech.

22

A

I'm sorry.

23

Q

Okay.

24
25

I'm

I may have done so in the past.

I may have done so in the past.

I don't recall an example.

Does the Administrator write her own speeches, or does the

communications team do that?
A

The Administrator has a speech writer.

She has told me that she


58

1

sometimes makes edits.

2
3

Q

Okay.

That is -- I think that's the best description I can give.

Has the Administrator ever gone to an event to discuss ARPA or

Infrastructure and Jobs Act, as far as you can recall?

4

A

I don't know if she's ever gone to an event with that purpose.

5

Q

Has she, as far as you know, ever spoken about either pieces of those

6

legislation at events?

7

A

I apologize.

8

Q

Is she a spokesperson for President Biden?

9

Mr. Levy.

10

Ms. Holmes.

Can you clarify what that means?
I would, but you told me I couldn't talk about the video.

11

allegation in the video.

12

Biden.

13

I don't have specific knowledge of whether she has or has not.

It was an

And the allegation was that she is, basically, a spokesperson for

BY MS. HOLMES:

14

Q

15

Mr. Levy.

16

Ms. Holmes.

17

Mr. Plews.

18

So I'm asking you if you believe that that is true.
Can you clarify what you mean by "spokesperson"?
No.
I wouldn't use that term.

BY MS. HOLMES:

19

Q

Okay.

20

A

I would say that spokespeople for the President are designated White House

22

Q

What do you think the administrator's role is as it relates to President Biden?

23

A

Well, President Biden is the administrator's boss.

21

24
25

staff.

I would say her primary

role is to run the SBA.
Q

If she gets a directive from her boss, President Biden, does she have to


59

1

follow it?

2

A

I suppose that would depend on the directive.

3

Q

An executive order, for example.

4

A

My understanding is that agencies are required to follow executive orders.

5

Q

Is she indirectly campaigning for President Biden?

6

A

No, not to my knowledge.

7

Q

Have you heard her use the term "battleground States"?

8

A

No.

9

Q

Have you ever used that term in the office?

10

A

I can't recall if I've ever used the term in the office.

11

the term in my life.

12

Q

13

I can't recall the Administrator using that term.

I'm confident I've used

As you understand it in your personal knowledge, what are the battleground

States in this election?

14

A

By this election, are you referring to the 2024 presidential election?

15

Q

Correct.

16

A

As I understand it, battleground States may be slightly in flux, but could

17

include such States as Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania,

18

North Carolina.

19

Minnesota might be a plausible battleground.

20
21

Q

I've heard that one of the campaigns -- I can't recall which -- thinks that

Okay.

I'm not sure if that's all of them.

We're going to go through a couple of those States and ask, just to

the best of your recollection, how many trips the Administrator has taken to each.

22

So I'm going to go in alphabetical order for ease.

23

A

I'm sorry.

Arizona?

I don't know how many trips she's taken to Arizona.

24

don't wish to waste the committee's time.

25

specifically to any State.

I can't recall that.

And I

I don't know how many trips she's taken


60

1

Q

Okay.

2

A

I don't know how many trips she's taken to Michigan.

3

Q

Okay.

4

A

No.

5

Q

Have you gone on a political trip to Michigan?

6

A

No.

7

Q

Seems lovely.

8

For the Administrator trips that include Members of Congress, do you have any

9

I'm just going to ask you one more.

You were on one trip to Michigan.

I believe I went on vacation there as a child.

involvement in the planning of those events?
Mr. Levy.

11

Ms. Holmes.

13
14

Is that right?

I don't believe I've ever gone on an official trip to Michigan.

10

12

What about Michigan?

What do you mean by an event that includes a Member of Congress?
An SBA event that has a Member of Congress invited to and/or

attending?
Mr. Plews.

Those will sometimes be discussed at the weekly scheduling meeting

that we talked about, and I do sometimes join that meeting and that discussion.

15

BY MS. HOLMES:

16

Q

Do you ever have any input into who is invited to events?

17

A

As a general matter or specific to congressional ones?

18

Q

Congressional ones.

19

A

I have the right to give input.

20

I don't recall giving input on who would be

invited to any events with Members of Congress particularly.

21

Q

So you have the right, but can't remember if you've ever exercised it?

22

A

I'm in the meeting, so I can talk.

23

Q

What about events with the White House, whether the President, Vice

24

President?

25

A

What about them?


61

1

Q

Do you have any input into whether or not they are attending?

2

A

If the President or Vice President are attending?

3

Q

Uh-huh.

4

Mr. Levy.

5
6
7
8

Can he -- can he weigh in on whether the President or the Vice

President should or shouldn't attend an event?
Ms. Holmes.

Does he have any input into whether or not the Administrator

invites the President or the Vice President to an event.
Mr. Plews.

Oh, occasionally.

For example -- I'm sorry to -- for the record.

9

we do -- we have in the past sought to have some White House principal attend a

10

National Small Business Week event.

11

aware of that and communicated about that to somebody.

12
13
14
15
16

I didn't suggest that.

But

But I remember being

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Does the Office of Legislative Affairs ever come to you with ideas of who

should be invited to events?
A

No.

I can't recall the Office of Legislative Affairs coming to me personally to

talk to about who should be invited to events.

17

Q

Are they at the table for the scheduling meeting?

18

A

They're on the invitation, yes.

19

Q

Is there any current tracker for administrator events, past and future?

20

A

When you say, "current tracker" --

21

Q

Like something that's kept up to date.

The Administrator has done these

22

72 events, we have these 15 upcoming events.

23

tracking where the Administrator is going other than her official schedule?

Anything of that nature where you're

24

A

I don't know if any such document is currently maintained.

25

Q

Does any document exist documenting her past trips?


62

1

A

Yeah.

2

Q

But it's not something that's regularly updated, to the best of your

3

I've seen a document -- at least one document in the past that did.

knowledge?

4

A

That, I don't know.

5

Q

Okay.

6

A

I believe it was sent to me from our office of communications.

7

Q

So as far as you know, they likely have some sort of tracking of where the

8

Administrator is?

9

A

I'm sorry.

10

Q

Do you have a list of upcoming events for the Administrator?

11

A

List of upcoming events, meaning things planned in the future?

12

Q

Uh-huh.

13

A

And is the "you" here me personally or the agency?

14

Q

Yes, you personally.

15

A

No.

16

not that I maintain.

17

Q

18

Under what circumstances do you see that list?

I don't know.

I'm not aware of being in possession of one for me personally.

So the weekly scheduling meetings, is that where you learn about events

that are -- she's going to?

19

A

That would be the most commonplace, yes.

20

Q

Okay.

21

No,

How far out do those meetings go?

How far out in the future are

they planning on average?

22

A

23

couple of months.

24

Q

Okay.

25

A

I was hoping the date would help me.

I don't know that there is a rule.

I can recollect discussing things in the next

Do you know when the next event the Administrator is going to is?
I'm sorry.

I don't know what the


63

1

next event she's going to do is, no.

I can't recall.

2

Q

Do you have any upcoming travel with the Administrator?

3

A

Me personally?

4

Q

Uh-huh.

5

A

No.

6

Q

Do you remember an event with Senator Tester.

7

Mr. Levy.

8

Ms. Holmes.

9

Mr. Plews.

10

Nothing planned.

An administrator event?
Yes.
I'm not sure if we have done an event with Senator Tester.

BY MS. HOLMES:

11

Q

12

Are you aware of what the Office of Special Counsel is?

13

A

I am.

14

Q

Are you aware of what they are in charge of doing?

15

A

To some extent.

16

Q

They are in charge of enforcing the -- investigating violations of the Hatch

17
18
19
20
21

Act.

All right.

We're going to pivot a little bit to a couple of phrases.

Is that the same as your recollection of what they do?
A

My understanding is they do that, and also investigate some forms of

personnel practice violations.
Q

Okay.

Not sure what exactly.

One of their opinions discusses prohibiting the use of campaign

slogans in the Federal workplace.

22

Were you made aware of that advisory opinion at any time?

23

A

24
25

Yes, as a general matter, I'm aware of the Office of Special Counsel's view.

I

can't recall if I was aware that there was an advisory opinion on it.
Q

Okay.

We're going to introduce that advisory opinion as Majority Exhibit 1.


64

1

So we'll take a second and pass it around.

2

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 1

3

was marked for identification.]

4

BY MS. HOLMES:

5

Q

6

Mr. Fishman.

Is this exhibit 1?

7

Ms. Holmes.

Uh-huh.

8

You can take a minute and familiarize yourself with it.

It's one page.

BY MS. HOLMES:

9

Q

Are you ready?

10

A

I am.

11

Ms. Holmes.

You guys good?

12

Mr. Fishman.

I'm good.

13

BY MS. HOLMES:

14

Q

Prior to me sliding this over to you, have you seen this document?

15

A

I don't recall seeing this specific document prior to today.

16

Q

In your Hatch Act training, do they discuss the concept of prohibiting

17

campaign slogans in the office?

18

A

Yes.

19

Q

So you knew that campaign slogans were prohibited in the office --

20

A

Yes.

21

Q

-- prior to me handing you this?

22

Have you ever heard the term MAGA or Make America Great Again in the office

23
24
25

Okay.

emails or in messages?
A

I have never heard it said in the office that I can recall, or seen it in any

messages firsthand.

I saw news reporting about a complaint filed that -- with OSC that


65

1

attached some -- what purported to be agency emails that contained the phrase.

2

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 2

3

was marked for identification.]

4

BY MS. HOLMES:

5

Q

6

you're referring to.

7

We're going to introduce majority exhibit 2, which is probably the email that
I'll give you a minute to take a look.

For the record, this is an email chain between Brianna Stonick, B-r-i-a-n-n-a,

8

S-t-o-n-i-c-k, senior communications assistant at the White House; Christina Hale, the

9

assistant administrator for the SBA Office of Women's Business Ownership; Administrator

10

Guzman; and yourself.

11

On March 20th, Stonick emailed Hale talking points on President Biden's veto of

12

extreme MAGA Republican bill.

13

She then forwarded this email to you and the Administrator.

"Feel free to deploy now to your respective universes."

14

So prior to me handing this to you, have you seen this email chain before?

15

A

I don't recall it, but that is my agency email address.

16

Q

Okay.

17

Mr. Levy.

Just to note for the record, the top email doesn't appear to be sent to

18

him.

19

seen the entire thread or the part that he's on?

So when you're talking about the thread, you're asking him about whether he's

20

Ms. Holmes.

21

Mr. Levy.

22

Ms. Holmes.

23

Mr. Levy.

24
25

The part that he's on, which does include the below thread.

Right.

But not the top one.

No.

All right.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

So this email was clearly sent after the OSC opinion which we just looked at,


66

1
2
3

which was dated December 14th, 2022.

This is dated March 20, 2023.

Were you aware that the term -- this term, "MAGA," or Make America Great
Again, was prohibited under the Hatch Act?

4

Mr. Fishman.

5

Mr. Levy.

6

Mr. Albrecht.

On what grounds?

7

Ms. Holmes.

What's your objection?

8

Mr. Fishman.

There's no support.

9

knowledge.

Objection.

Objection.

There's no basis for showing that he has any

He said he has never seen that opinion.

10

Ms. Holmes.

He said he had been trained on it, Hatch Act training.

11

Mr. Fishman.

That's fine.

12

Ms. Holmes.

So at the time of this email coming through, did you know that it

13

But he's never seen that opinion.

was prohibited to use campaign slogans in Federal --

14

Mr. Fishman.

Objection.

15

Ms. Holmes.

What grounds?

16

Mr. Fishman.

How do you know that it was illegal for him to use -- even if he did,

17
18

which he didn't admit that he did or didn't -- any of this?
Mr. Levy.

Well, the other objection I make is to foundation in the sense that I

19

don't know that this email does use a campaign slogan for the purposes described in the

20

memo in exhibit 1.

21

Ms. Holmes.

Okay.

So let's walk through it.

22

again, going to continue to ask the question.

23

am going to ask the question.

24
25

Your objections are noted, but

You may instruct him not to answer, but I

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

You said that you were trained that presidential and/or campaign slogans


67

1

are prohibited under the Hatch Act, right?

2

Mr. Levy.

3

Ms. Holmes.

4

Mr. Levy.

5

Ms. Holmes.

6

His testimony speaks for itself, but ask a question.
I did just ask a question.

I don't want you mischaracterizing his testimony.
Okay.

BY MS. HOLMES:

7

Q

So you tell me.

8

A

Yes.

9

Q

And as part of that training, were you informed that the use of campaign

10

Were you trained on Hatch Act compliance?

slogans is against the Hatch Act?

11

A

Yes, though that may have been after this email.

12

Q

You said you were trained on the Hatch Act annually?

13

A

I said I've been trained this year.

14

Q

This year.

15

A

I don't recall.

16

Q

When we were discussing it as being annual training, I asked if you were

17
18
19
20

And have you been trained in prior years?

annually trained on ethics.
A

I apologize.

You said IT, and then I asked Hatch Act.

I don't remember you asking if those trainings were annual.

don't know if they are annual.
Q

So you've only, to the best of your recollection, been in one Hatch Act

training, and that was --

22

Mr. Levy.

Not what he said.

23

Mr. Plews.

No.

25

I

They may be.

21

24

You said, yes.

I can recall two Hatch Act trainings, but my recollection is both

were this year.
BY MS. HOLMES:


68

1

Q

Both were this year?

2

A

Correct.

3

Q

Why were there two?

4

A

The Hatch Act is important.

5

Q

Were the trainings different?

6

A

One was performed by the Office of Special Counsel.

7

Q

Okay.

8

A

One was performed by our agency Office of General Counsel.

9

Q

How were the trainings different?

10

Mr. Levy.

Substantively?

11

Mr. Plews.

Couldn't give a full recollection as to whether the topics covered

12

were different.

13

The people performing the training were different.

BY MS. HOLMES:

14

Q

Okay.

15

A

That's the best I can recall at this time.

16

Q

And in either of those trainings, or both, was it mentioned that campaign

17

slogans are not to be used?

18

A

Yes, I recall that in at least one.

19

Q

Okay.

20

So at the time of this email, March 20th, 2023, you received it at

1:11 p.m., were you aware that the use of campaign slogans was against the Hatch Act?

21

A

I don't know.

22

Q

Okay.

23

A

I recall learning that at the Office of Special Counsel training or more

24
25

Did you learn after the fact in your training?

specifically, I should say, I recall that being part of the training.
Q

Okay.

In this email, it states, "Feel free to deploy now to your respective


69

1

universes."

2

Do you remember seeing that at the time?

3

A

I don't.

4

Q

Reading it back now, what do you think that that means?

5

Mr. Levy.

6

Ms. Holmes.

7

Mr. Levy.

8

Ms. Holmes.

9

an email sent to him.

10

Mr. Plews.

11

Objection.
On what grounds?

I think you'd have to ask Ms. Stonick.
I'm just asking what he thinks about a particular phrase that was in

Well, Ms. Stonick didn't send it to me.

BY MS. HOLMES:

12

Q

Correct.

13

A

And so I'm -- I'm sorry that I don't know what she would mean with respect

Q

I'm not asking what she means.

14
15
16

to me.
I'm asking, what do you understand it to

mean looking at it now?

17

A

How is that different from what she means?

18

Q

I don't really care what she means.

19

A

Well, she wrote it.

20

Q

Correct.

21

A

So wouldn't what she means and what it means be the same?

22

Mr. Albrecht.

23

way someone else said that.

24

things perfectly, right?

25

I want to know what you understood.

I mean, you can interpret something to mean something in the
That's a common social interaction.

So we're not asking what literally she meant.

We don't phrase

We are asking what specifically you


70

1

understood that to mean.

2

Mr. Plews.

3

I don't recall receiving the email.

BY MS. HOLMES:

4

Q

Reading this today, what do you understand that to mean?

5

A

I -- I don't know that I do.

6

Q

Okay.

7

Are you aware of the executive order released by President Biden, 14019,

8

We can move on.

promoting access to voting?

9

A

Yep, I'm familiar with that.

10

Q

How are you familiar with it?

11

A

I'm familiar that it does -- that it covers the topic you mentioned then,

12

promoting access to voting.

13

Q

When did you become familiar with it?

14

A

I don't recall when I first became familiar with it.

15

Q

You said you know it promotes access to voting.

16

What else do you understand the executive order to direct agencies to do?

17

A

18

agencies.

I believe it discusses the concept of agencies becoming voter registration
I'm not sure what else specifically it does.

19

Mr. Levy.

20

Mr. Eckhardt.

It's in the --

21

Ms. Holmes.

Do you want to look at it right now?

22

Mr. Levy.

23

Ms. Holmes.

24
25

Do you want to put it in front of him?

If you're going to ask him about it, might as well.
You can introduce Majority Exhibit 3.

14019 from President Biden on March 10th, 2021.
[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 3

This is the Executive Order


71

1

was marked for identification.]

2

Mr. Eckhardt.

This is like the collective --

3

Ms. Holmes.

We don't have it separated out.

We'll just refer back to it.

4

exhibit also has additional information attached to it.

5

executive order on the top, and we'll come back to it in due course.

We're just going to start with the

6

Mr. Eckhardt.

It's the first three pages of this collective exhibit.

7

Ms. Holmes.

Okay.

8

BY MS. HOLMES:

9

Q

So you've seen the executive order before?

10

A

Yes, I have seen it before.

11

Q

Okay.

12
13
14
15

What part of your job responsibilities require you to have knowledge

of this executive order?
A

I don't know that I can cite a specific -- well, as a matter of principle, I would

say it's helpful for me to be aware of executive orders that impact the agencies.
Now, there are a great many of those, but this one is relatively recently issued,

16

may create new obligations for the agency.

17

generally aware of it.

And, therefore, it's a good idea for me to be

18

Q

"Create new obligations," what do you mean by that?

19

A

It may instruct the agency to do something.

20

Q

And in this case, what did it instruct the agency to do?

21

A

I'm looking for that text.

22

Mr. Levy.

23

Ms. Holmes.

24
25

This

The executive order speaks for itself.
I want to know what his understanding of what the directive was

for the agency in the executive order.
Mr. Plews.

Section 3 says, "Agencies should consider ways to expand citizens'


72

1

opportunities to register to vote and to obtain information about, and participate in, the

2

electoral process."

3

There's then follow-up text.

BY MS. HOLMES:

4

Q

5

Administrator?

6

A

When do you first remember discussing this executive order with the

I'm sorry.

7

in much detail ever.

8

Q

Okay.

I don't recall when we first discussed it, or if we have discussed it

Are you familiar with the SBA's recently entered MOU with the State

9

of Michigan to help facilitate voter registration in an attempt to implement this executive

10

order?

11

A

I have some familiarity about it.

12

Q

When did you become aware of that agreement?

13

A

I don't recall when I first became aware of the agreement.

14

Q

Do you recall how you became aware of the agreement?

15

A

No, I don't.

16

Q

Were you involved in any negotiations about the agreement?

17

A

Not to my recollection.

18

Q

Did you ever discuss an MOU voter registration or this executive order with

19
20
21

anyone from the Michigan Secretary of State's office?
Mr. Levy.

Is there -- if there's a specific MOU which you're referring, could you

just put it in front of him so we're talking about --

22

Ms. Holmes.

23

Mr. Levy.

24

Ms. Holmes.

25

will introduce it in due order.

I will.

-- the same thing?
He said he was aware of the agreement that I was discussing, so I
But first I want to know if you had any conversations


73

1

about the agreement implementing this executive order with the State of Michigan with

2

anyone from the Michigan Secretary of State's office?

3

A

No.

4

Q

Do you recall having any conversations with any third parties about the MOU

5

I don't recall having any conversations about that.

with the State of Michigan?

6

A

No, I don't recall that.

7

Q

Do you have any responsibilities under the MOU?

8

A

Do I personally have any responsibilities under the MOU?


74

1

[12:09 p.m.]

2

BY MS. HOLMES:

3

Q

4

Mr. Levy.

I think at this point it would be helpful to put it in front of him.

5

Mr. Plews.

Yeah, let me see it.

6

Ms. Holmes.

Yeah, as Chief of Staff.

Okay.

This will be majority exhibit 4.

7

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 4

8

was marked for identification.]

9

Ms. Beca-Barragan.

10

Ms. Holmes.

11

early on the other hour.

12
13

How much time do you have left?

Well, we had an extra 10 minutes because we ended 10 minutes
So it will be 12:15.

And then we were going to do 5 because apparently you had two parts.
you will have all of the documents in front of you.

14

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 5

15

was marked for identification.]

16

Mr. Levy.

17

Mr. Fishman.

I'm sorry.

18

Ms. Holmes.

The MOU was in two parts.

Thank you.

Appreciate that.
What did you say?

19

agreement and a memorandum of understanding.

20

is 4.

I apologize.

So the memorandum of agreement

Mr. Fishman.

Gotcha.

22

Ms. Holmes.

The memorandum of understanding is 5.

23

Mr. Fishman.

Thank you.

24

Ms. Holmes.

No, that's okay.

BY MS. HOLMES:

I didn't hear you.

There was a memorandum of

21

25

So now

I just didn't hear you.
I definitely want to make sure we're clear.


75

1

Q

So we're not going to get through all these questions in the next 5 minutes.

2

However, do you recall discussing this memorandum of agreement or memorandum of

3

understanding with any third parties?

4

A

No, I don't recall doing that.

5

Q

Okay.

6
7

And then, as Chief of Staff, do you have any responsibilities under

this memorandum of agreement or understanding?
A

To the best of my recollection, there is not a specific responsibility for the

8

Chief of Staff under the memorandum of agreement or memorandum of understanding,

9

but I'm happy to review both of them now to confirm that if you'd like.

10

Q

11

During a May 3, 2024, briefing with Ms. Jennifer Kim, the Associate Administrator

That's okay.

12

at the SBA Office of Field Operations, committee staff were told that negotiations with

13

Michigan over this MOU began in December of 2021.

14

Can you remind me what your role was then?

15

A

My role at the agency in December of 2021?

16

Q

Yeah.

17

A

I would've been Deputy Chief of Staff.

18

Q

Still Deputy?

19

A

Uh-huh.

20

Q

Okay.

21

From that time until the agreement was signed in March of 2024, did you attend

22

any meetings at which the MOU was discussed?

23

A

What was the end date?

24

Q

March of 2024.

25

A

I can't recall any such meetings.

I may have.


76

1
2

Q

which the MOU was discussed?

3
4

And since March of 2024, when it was signed, have you had any meetings in

A

Not the substance of the MOU, but the topic of the Michigan partnership

has come up in Congressional and Legislative Affairs briefings.

5

Q

Is that just part of your regular meetings?

6

A

Uh-huh.

7

Q

Do they provide you any updates on this one?

8

A

Again, not on the specific substance of the MOU.

9

Q

What were the updates about?

10

A

The fact of elevated congressional interest in this area.

11

Q

With OLA or any other office head, have you discussed this MOU?

12

Mr. Fishman.

Aside from attorneys, I assume.

13

Ms. Holmes.

Always.

14

Mr. Fishman.

Just making clear.

15

Mr. Plews.

16

I may have.

I don't recall discussing the MOU specifically.

BY MS. HOLMES:

17

Q

Okay.

19

A

I don't recall doing so, but, again, I may have at some point.

20

Q

Do you remember discussing voter registration with the Administrator at any

A

Same.

18

21
22

Do you remember discussing voter registration with any of the office

heads?

point?
I don't recall doing so, but I may have at some point.

The topic of

23

voter registration and the Michigan MOU has been part of recent congressional briefings

24

to me and the Administrator.

25

Q

Okay.

Do you remember why Michigan was selected?


77

1

A

I don't know why Michigan was selected.

2

Q

Okay.

3

A

I don't remember specifically, no.

4

Q

Okay.

5

As far as you know, are there any other States that are being

considered?

6
7

Do you remember when you learned that Michigan was selected?

A

I'm aware that other States have been considered in the past.

if any are currently being considered.

8

Q

What were those?

9

A

Utah and Kentucky are the two that I'm aware of.

10

Q

Do you remember why those States weren't selected?

11

A

I don't know if they have or haven't been.

12

Q

Okay.

13

A

I'm aware of a desire to expand the initiative to more States.

14

Do you remember any discussions surrounding those two States?
I don't recall

specific discussions about the details of those two States or how far along we are or not.

15

Q

Okay.

17

A

I'm not sure.

I know in the past we had that desire.

18

Q

"In the past."

You mean last week?

19

A

Within the last month.

20

Q

Within the last month.

21

Ms. Holmes.

16

I don't know

So that's an active desire to expand the initiative in other States, not

past?

Last year?

Okay.

I think we are just about at time, so we will pause there and switch.

22

We can take a 5-minute break, 10-minute, or we can -- it's 12:14 -- if you guys want to do

23

a longer break for lunch, we can do that.

24

Mr. Levy.

25

Ms. Holmes.

Are we off.
Oh, yeah.

We can go off.


78

1

[Recess.]

2

Ms. Holmes.

3

We can go back on the record.

BY MS. HOLMES:

4

Q

We're going to walk through some of the lead-up to the signing of the MOU.

5

I know you said a lot of it you cannot recall, so we'll go through a couple of exhibits to

6

hopefully refresh your recollection.

7

The first one is majority exhibit 6.

We'll mark it and distribute it.

8

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 6

9

was marked for identification.]

10
11

Mr. Levy.

And, Lauren, do you want me to ask my question at the end of your

hour.

12

Ms. Holmes.

13

Mr. Levy.

14

Yes.

Yeah, no problem.

BY MS. HOLMES:

15

Q

Okay.

This email shows that on April 1, 2021, just weeks after President

16

Biden signed Executive Order 14019, you, Mr. Plews, received an email from the White

17

House about an interagency policy meeting on the implementation of the executive

18

order.

19

Do you remember this email?

20

A

21

Mr. Levy.

Did you read it?

22

Mr. Plews.

I'm sorry, I don't recall receiving it.

23

I don't.

I'm sorry.
Make sure you read it.

BY MS. HOLMES:

24

Q

Okay.

You were Deputy Chief at the time, April 1, 2021, right?

25

A

Yes.

That's correct.


79

1

Q

Did you frequently get these sorts of emails from the White House?

2

why it's not memorable?

3

Mr. Levy.

4

Ms. Holmes.

5

Mr. Levy.

6

Ms. Holmes.

7

Is that

Objection.
To what.

You asked a couple questions and -Okay.

I can ask them individually.

BY MS. HOLMES:

8

Q

9

Mr. Levy.

10

Ms. Holmes.

11

Mr. Plews.

12

Did you frequently receive emails like this from the White House?
What do you mean by an "email like this".
Interagency meetings from the White House.
Yes.

BY MS. HOLMES:

13

Q

You frequently received them?

14

A

I frequently received emails about interagency meetings.

15

Q

From the White House?

16

A

Yeah.

17

Q

How often is "frequently"?

18

A

I don't know that I can really quantify it, but I think, ballpark, we're in about

19

60 or so interagency processes right now.

20

Q

That require White House meetings?

21

A

That number is my understanding.

22

Almost all, if not entirely all, are

White-House-coordinated processes.

23

Q

24

Did you send anyone to this meeting, or did you go yourself?

25

A

Okay.

Referring to this Friday, April 9th --


80

1

Q

Yep.

2

A

-- meeting that's highlighted?

3

Q

When was it determined that the SBA Office of Field Operations would be

4

Mr. Levy.

6

Ms. Holmes.

7

9
10
11
12
13

16

Sorry.

Can you establish a foundation for that.

Sure.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

We know that the Office of Field Operations was in charge of implementing

the executive order and the memorandum of understanding.
Do you recall when that determination was made, to make them the point and/or
in charge of implementing the executive order?
Mr. Levy.

Can you ask him if he understands that the SBA is in charge of

implementing the executive order?

14
15

I'm sorry.

the best office to implement the executive order?

5

8

I don't recall.

Because I don't know that he said that.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

In our discussions in the last hour, you talked about how the SBA was given a

directive under the executive order to work on voter registration efforts.

17

Is that your understanding of the executive order and the SBA's role?

18

A

19

I'll just read from this section.

I suppose I should consult the executive order.
It says, "The agency shall consider ways to expand

20

citizens' opportunities to register to vote and to obtain information about and

21

participation in the electoral process."

22

So that's my understanding of what the EO does.

23

Q

Okay.

24

A

You had another question?

25

Q

Yep.

Who decided that the SBA Office of Field Operations would be the


81

1
2

best office to implement the executive order?
Mr. Levy.

Objection.

I don't know that -- you first have to ask him if that

3

decision was made, that it was the best place.

4

from his testimony.

5

Ms. Holmes.

6
7
8

I don't know that that's in the record

It's not from his testimony, no.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Who decided that the SBA Office of Field Operations would be part of the

implementation of the Executive Order 14019?

9

A

You mean within the SBA, correct?

10

Q

Uh-huh.

11

A

I don't know who made that decision.

12

Q

Were you aware that that decision was made?

13

A

I had been advised that the Office of Field Operations works on this

14

executive order.

15

Q

Who told you that?

16

A

I don't recall who originally told me that.

17

Q

When were you made aware of that?

18

A

I also don't recall.

19

Q

In the last year?

20

A

I'm sorry, I don't recall if it was in the last year or not.

21

Q

Do you recall the rationale shared with you for why the Office of Field

22

Operations was utilizing and/or implementing this executive order?

23

Mr. Levy.

24

Ms. Holmes.

25

make it; it's noted.

Objection.

Foundation.

That's actually not a valid objection under our rules.

So you can


82

1

BY MS. HOLMES:

2

Q

3

Mr. Levy.

Was a rationale provided to you at all that you recall.

4

Mr. Plews.

I don't recall receiving the rationale, and I'm unaware of what the

5

rationale would've been.

6
7
8
9

What was the rationale that you recall?

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Did it make sense to you to have the Office of Field Operations in charge of

the executive order?
A

Well, I'm not sure that they're in charge.

10

Or I've been advised that they worked on it.

11

Logically, it does make some sense.

I know that they worked on it.

The Office of Field Operations does

12

in-person engagement for the agency, and theirs is potential in-person elements here

13

being contemplated.

That could be logical.

14

Q

15

In the email -- this is exhibit 6 -- it says, "... please identify your agency's staff lead

Okay.

16

[who is] responsible for coordinating the implementation of the executive order and

17

provide your written responses to the questions below."

18

Do you recall who that point person was?

19

Mr. Levy.

20

Ms. Holmes.

21

Mr. Levy.

22

Ms. Holmes.

-- the end of the second sentence.

23

Mr. Eckhardt.

Second line.

24

Mr. Plews.

25

Where is this?

Sorry.

It's in the second paragraph --

Yeah.

I apologize.

BY MS. HOLMES:

Could you repeat the question?


83

1

Q

Yeah.

2

A

At this time, I don't recall who it was at this time.

3

I don't know if that

concept is still in use.

4
5

Do you recall who the agency staff lead was or is?

Q

Is there a point person in the SBA that is leading the implementation of the

executive order, to the best of your knowledge?

6

A

I don't know.

7

Q

If you had a question about the executive order, who would you go to?

8

Mr. Levy.

9

Within the SBA.

BY MS. HOLMES:

10

Q

Within the SBA.

11

A

What kind of question?

12

Q

Any kind of question.

13

A

Well, it would depend on what the kind of question was.

14

Q

Okay.

16

A

I promise I'm not trying to be difficult.

17

Q

The implementation of the executive order.

18

A

I'd go to the Office of Field Operations.

19

Q

Who in the Office of Field Operations would you ask?

20

A

Based on the nature of my role, I always go to the head of the office

15

21

A question on the substance of the executive order, who would you

go to?
What kind of substance?

whenever I'm asking an office any kind of question -- or, sorry, not always, but usually.

22

Q

And who is that?

23

A

That's Jennifer Kim.

24

Q

Have you asked her any questions about the executive order or the

25

memorandum of understanding?


84

1

A

I may have.

2

Q

Do you recall any conversations you've had with Ms. Kim about the

3

executive order?

4

A

No, I'm sorry, I don't.

5

Q

Do you recall any conversations you've had with Ms. Kim about the

6

I can't recall doing so at this time.

memorandum of understanding with Michigan?

7

A

No, I don't recall any.

8

Q

Do you recall any email communication with Ms. Kim about the executive

10

A

I don't recall email communication with Ms. Kim about the EO at this time.

11

Q

Do you recall any email communication with Ms. Kim about the Michigan

9

12

order?

memorandum of understanding?

13

A

No, I don't.

14

Q

You said you did not attend this meeting, to the best of your recollection,

15
16

right?
Mr. Levy.

17

"This meeting" being the Friday, April 9, meeting.

BY MS. HOLMES:

18

Q

The April 9th, from 10:30 to 11:30 a.m. eastern.

19

A

To the best of my recollection, but this was in 2021.

20

Q

Correct.

21

A

No.

22

Q

Okay.

23

By this point in April of 2021, you are still the Deputy.

24

conversations with the Administrator about Executive Order 14019?

25

A

Do you recall if the Chief of Staff went to this meeting?

I don't know who went to this meeting, if anyone did.

No, I don't recall any such conversations.

Do you recall any


85

1

Q

2

We'll now introduce majority exhibit 7 and take a second to distribute that.

3

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 7

4

was marked for identification.]

5
6

Okay.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

This is an entry from Administrator Guzman's calendar illustrating that, the

7

same day as the email that we just talked about, exhibit 6, you had a meeting with

8

Administrator Guzman and then your boss, Mr. Griffin, who was the SBA Chief of Staff at

9

the time.

10

You were an invitee on this meeting.

11

A

I don't recall this invitation.

12

Q

Okay.

13

It says, "Leave for White House at 11:15."

14

Is that the Administrator's calendar, as far as you can tell?

15
16

Were you aware of this meeting?

Because this is an

invite that she got, presumably.
Mr. Levy.

17

So you're looking at 11:15.

BY MS. HOLMES:

18

Q

19

So there's a check-in that was scheduled.

The second one.

Sorry.
You say you don't remember that.

20

The next thing on there is "leave for White House at 11:15."

21

Do you remember anything about April 1st?

22

A

Do I remember anything about April 1st, 2021?

23

Q

Uh-huh.

24

A

No, I'm sorry, I don't.

25

Q

Nothing stuck out?


86

1

A

Nothing's coming to mind.

2

Q

Okay.

3

As far as you can recall, how often does the Administrator go to the White House?

4

A

I don't know exactly.

5

Q

Have you ever attended an event and/or meeting at the White House with

6

the Administrator?

7

A

Yes.

8

Q

Can you recall the dates of those, about?

9

A

I don't think this is what you're looking for, but we had lunch at the Navy

10

Mess -- what day is today?

11
12

It must've been last week.

I can only recall attending one other meeting with the Administrator at the White
House.

It was the meeting I previously referenced that Chief of Staff Zients was also at.

13

Q

And what was that meeting about?

14

A

That one covered, I believe, multiple topics.

15

The one I recall it covering was

return to work/ in office presence in the government.

16

Q

17

How many meetings have you gone to at the White House in your official capacity

Okay.

18

at SBA?

19

A

In person?

20

Q

In person first.

21

A

I can't give an exact quantification, but it's not particularly common.

22

Ballpark, I'd estimate once every couple of months maybe.

23

Q

24

House?

25

A

Okay.

How often are you on calls and/or virtual meetings with the White

It's varied a great deal, but I would say, with anyone in the White House,


87

1

perhaps an average of at least once a week.

2

Q

3

particularly --

4

A

Yes, it's definitely been more frequent than that at times in the past.

5

Q

Can you recall any of those specific subjects?

6

A

Yeah.

Are there times that it's more frequent than that, if there's something

During the implementation of the agency's pandemic

7

programs -- PPP, COVID EIDL, RRF, SVOG -- let me know if you need the definition of the

8

acronyms --

9

Q

No, we got it.

10

A

-- I'm sure the committee's familiar -- yes, meetings with White House were

11

more frequent for me.

12

Q

13

Chief of Staff role?

14

A

15

Thank you.

Okay.

In your time as Deputy, did you go to the White House, or is it just as

The question is, did I ever go in person to the White House while I was

Deputy Chief of Staff?

16

Q

Yeah.

17

A

I don't recall going --

18

Q

Okay.

19

A

-- to the White House in person while Deputy Chief of Staff.

20

It doesn't

mean it didn't happen; I just don't recall.

21

Q

22

To the best of your recollection, did any of the meetings that we just went

23

through with the White House, either virtual or in person, discuss the executive order?

That's okay.

24

A

The executive order on voting?

25

Q

14019, yep.


88

1

A

No, not to my recollection.

2

Q

And, to the best of your recollection, did any of the meetings we just

3

discussed have the topic of conversation be of voter registration?

4

A

And I suppose I should've clarified.

By "meetings we just discussed," are

5

you referring to in-person meetings that I've gone to at the White House at any point,

6

while I was Deputy Chief of Staff, or what meetings are we talking about?

7

Q

8

Mr. Levy.

9

Ms. Holmes.

10

Mr. Plews.

11

The in-person and virtual or call.
And the subject matter of those meetings was.
Voter registration.
So it's any in-person, virtual meeting, or call that I participated in

with the White House talking about voter registration?

12

BY MS. HOLMES:

13

Q

Correct.

14

A

Yes, I can recall one meeting that was about voter registration.

15

Q

Do you remember when that was?

16

A

It was sometime this year.

17

exactly when.

18

Q

19

I want to say a few months ago.

So you discussed voter registration.

Did you discuss the memorandum of

understanding with Michigan?

20

A

No.

21

Q

Okay.

23

A

No, SBA wasn't discussed at all.

24

Q

SBA wasn't discussed at all?

25

A

Huh-uh.

22

I'm not sure

I didn't actually talk at the meeting.
Did anyone on the call or meeting discuss the Michigan Secretary of

State?


89

1

Q

Who presented?

2

A

I recall GSA presenting and VA presenting.

3

Q

Did they discuss anything about voter registration and the agencies that

4
5

were directed to designate themselves as voter registration agencies?
A

I don't know if anyone has been directed to designate themselves as a voter

6

registration agency.

7

agency?

8

Q

Sure.

9

A

I believe the VA's presentation touched on that topic, yes.

10

Q

And is that because the VA has a voter registration designation?

11

A

I believe they presented that they either have that designation or were

12

Is the question, did they discuss the concept of a voter registration

working on such a designation, one of the two.

13

Q

And what was GSA's role?

14

A

My recollection is they presented on a website called vote.gov.

15

Q

I'm not familiar with it.

16

A

Embarrassingly, I don't recall too many of the specifics of GSA's presentation.

17

What is vote.gov?

I believe it contained some type of information about voting; I'm not sure what.

18

Q

19

We are going to go to majority exhibit 8.

Okay.

20

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 8

21

was marked for identification.]

22
23
24
25

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Okay.

This is another calendar invitation from Administrator Guzman's

calendar on April 30, 2021.
This invite indicates that, on April 30, 2021, an SBA employee requested an urgent


90

1

meeting with Guzman regarding a, quote, "philosophical disconnect with OMB."

2

calendar indicates that an employee named Julie wanted this meeting.

The

3

Do you think that that was Julie Verratti?

4

Well, first, are you familiar with this meeting?

5

A

No, I'm not.

6

Q

Okay.

7

A

Or, at least, I can't recall this meeting.

8

Q

Okay.

9

Mr. Fishman.

Just for kicks, what is the scope of this?

10

Mr. Eckhardt.

This is involving -- like, these kind of entries generally involve the

11
12
13
14
15

SBA's implementation of the executive order.
Mr. Fishman.
personnel issue?

And a meeting regarding RRF had something to do with a

Or whatever it is that is urgent is related to what.

Ms. Holmes.

As far as we can tell, yes, it was at the time.

remember, so we can't actually affirm or deny that information.

16

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 9

17

was marked for identification.]

18
19

But he doesn't

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

All right.

Moving into exhibit No. 9, this is an email chain from Devontae

20

Freeland, a special assistant to the deputy counsel in the White House Counsel's Office, to

21

various agency employees, including Julie Verratti -- you told me how to say that properly.

22

A

"Verratti."

23

Q

"Verratti" -- and Victor Parker.

24

This email shows that, on May 3rd, Verratti and Parker received an email from

25

Freeland regarding the second interagency policy committee meeting at the White


91

1

House -- so this is the second one from the exhibit 6 -- scheduled for May 21, 2021, and

2

the interim report due to the White House Domestic Policy Council by June 15, 2021.

3

You're not on this email chain specifically, but do you remember hearing about

4

this meeting?

5

Mr. Levy.

6

a part of an email thread.

7

of it.

8
9

Is there -- just, before he answers the question, it looks like exhibit 9 is

Ms. Holmes.
SBA.

It looks like there may be more to it.

It's front and back.

Do you have the rest

This is what was released in a FOIA from the

So that would be a question for the SBA, if they have further context for this.

10

Mr. Levy.

11

have a "from" or a "to."

12

not have a copy of the page that comes before it, or the email with --

13
14
15
16

So, just to be clear, the top of the thread on the first page doesn't

Ms. Holmes.

Mr. Levy.
document.

18

Mr. Levy.

19

Ms. Holmes.

20

Mr. Levy.

25

Yep.

And I just don't think that's fair to a witness to do.
Okay.

That's fine.

I'm going to note my objection.

But go ahead and ask your

questions.
Ms. Holmes.

23
24

I think it might have been released in the FOIA, but we did not pull

But you're asking him about a part of a document, not the whole

Ms. Holmes.

22

And the committee does

it for this interview because that part was not what we wanted to question on.

17

21

It's just language from a stray email.

Yeah.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Where you can see the highlights, so from the bottom of this page, the front

of the page to the back, this is -- as I said, this is the followup meeting to the initial


92

1

meeting we discussed in exhibit 6.

2

meeting."

3

chain for.

It says, "As discussed at the April 9 interagency

That's how we know it was that first meeting that you were on the email

4

You weren't included on this one, so do you remember anything about these

5

interagency meetings with the White House about the executive order implementation?

6
7

Mr. Levy.

Are you asking if he recalls anything about the, quote, "second

interagency policy meeting on May 21, 2021".

8

Ms. Holmes.

9

Mr. Levy.

10

Ms. Holmes.

11

Mr. Levy.

12

Ms. Holmes.

13

Mr. Plews.

14

No.

I'm asking if he remembers anything about this meeting.

When you say "this meeting" -The followup meeting that is listed in this.

Is that -So, yeah, so May 21st.
I don't recall anything about an interagency policy committee

meeting on EO implementation, voting EO implementation, on May 21st, 2021.

15

BY MS. HOLMES:

16

Q

Do you recall it on any date?

17

A

Other than the meeting that we just discussed, no, I don't.

18

Q

Okay.

19

This one mentions a report that is going to the White House.

20
21

Let me find the

exact language.
Okay.

"The purpose of that meeting will be to support development of the

22

interim reports, help coordinate feedback from external stakeholders, and share

23

strategies for implementing a whole-of-government presidential priority."

24
25

Do you remember an implementation strategy or report that the SBA prepared as
it relates to Executive Order 14019 implementation?


93

1

A

No, I don't have any recollection of a report like that.

2

Q

So you don't remember seeing one at any time?

3

A

Not to my recollection.

4

Q

Okay.

5

At this point, so as of whatever day it is, have you heard about the

6

implementation of Executive Order 14019 or how the agency is planning to implement it?

7
8

It's certainly possible, but I don't recall.

A

I'm sorry, I don't recall when I first became aware of the EO or our

implementation plan.

9

Q

10

How often did you and Mr. Griffin meet with the Administrator when he was Chief

11

Okay.

and you were Deputy?

12

A

Together?

13

Q

Yeah.

14

A

That's a good question.

15

Q

Okay.

16

A

"Weekly or more" sounds correct if we're being inclusive of meetings that

17

I'm afraid I don't have a quantification.

Was it weekly, like, that level of frequency?

I'm sorry.

Daily?

both he and I were in and also other people.

18

Q

Okay.

19

A

I don't know that we had many, if any, meetings where it was just the three

20

of us.

I don't know if the calendar invite listed that.

I don't recall that specific meeting.

21

Q

22

Do you recall any roundtables by the White House inviting agency personnel to

23

Okay.

discuss election issues?

24

A

No, I don't recall anything like that at this time.

25

Q

Do you recall any type of roundtable that the agency had ever been invited


94

1

to, regardless of subject, that was put on by the White House?

2

A

I'm not sure if it'd be classified as a roundtable, but there was some kind of

3

business leader event at the White House last week that some of our staff were invited

4

to.

Or, I think it was last week.

Sometime in the last 2 weeks.

5

Q

Was that around elections?

6

A

No, not to my knowledge.

7

Q

Okay.

8

All right.

9

We're going to introduce a couple of documents which we will

collectively refer to as majority exhibit 10.

10

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 10

11

was marked for identification.]

12

BY MS. HOLMES:

13

Q

14

Good?

15

A

16

Ms. Holmes.

17

Mr. Levy.

18

Ms. Holmes.

19
20
21

I'll give you a minute to look through this.

Uh-huh.
Is counsel good?

Yes.
Okay.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

On the first page, this is a calendar invitation which appears to be from the

Administrator's schedule.

It is August 9th, 2021.

22

At that time, you were still the Deputy.

23

A

That's correct.

24

Q

Okay.

25

At 3:30 p.m., it says, "OFO All Hands with Administrator Guzman."

Is that right?

Were you


95

1

aware of that meeting?

2

A

I don't recall that meeting.

3

Q

Okay.

4

A

We attempt to do townhalls with the agency generally about quarterly.

How often do all-hands meetings occur with the Administrator?

5

This is described as an OFO all-hands.

6

Field Operations.

7

one that I'm not aware of.

8
9

Q

"OFO" is the abbreviation used for the Office of

I don't know that we had a regular cadence for that.

Okay.

There may be

For OFO, or Office of Field Operations, is there a distinction between

an all-hands meeting and a townhall?

10

A

I don't know.

11

Q

For any other office, is there a distinction between an all-hands and a

12

townhall?

13

A

I've seen the terms used somewhat interchangeably.

14

Q

Okay.

15

A

Offices may make distinctions, but I'm not aware of any consistent one

16

Sorry.

They might know.

utilized at the office.

17

Q

Okay.

18

A

The agency-wide townhalls?

19

Q

The townhalls that you were referring to.

20

A

Yeah, I was referring to the agency-wide townhalls.

21

Q

Okay.

22

A

They're used to thank employees for their service.

What are the townhalls used for?

23

done 30, 35, 40, 45 years of service, things like that.

24

somebody who was 50.

25

Q

Wow.

We like to display who's

The last time, we actually had


96

1

A

And we also use them for office heads to give presentations about things of

2

note that they've been doing.

3

heads or some senior leaders will take questions.

And then sometimes the Administrator or the office

4

Q

5

those townhalls?

6

A

Not to my recollection, no.

7

Q

Have they given a presentation on Executive Order 14019 at those

8

Have the office heads of OFO given a presentation on voter registration at

townhalls?

9

A

Not to my recollection.

10

Q

It happens.

11

We can turn the page.

But I'm sure I've missed some townhalls.

On the backside of the first page, it's August 17, 2021,

12

and it shows that the Administrator traveled to Detroit, Michigan.

13

here, she departs for the airport, arrives, flight.

14
15
16

So you can see on

The morning after her return to D.C. is August 19th, I believe.
on -- yeah.

So she returned

Sorry.

Okay.

On August 19, 2021 -- this is the third page in the packet that I handed

17

you -- or, I'm sorry, the second page of the packet, the third calendar invite -- the

18

Administrator had three notable meetings.

19

second was with you, and the third was with Scott Harriford, the former White House

20

Liaison.

The first one was at the White House, the

21

Do you remember August 19, 2021, as it relates to this calendar?

22

A

No, I don't have a memory of that date as it relates to this calendar.

23

Q

Okay.

24

So, on the back page, it says, "3:00 PM - 3:15 PM, Check-in with Arthur."

25

You don't have any specific memory of this one?


97

1

Mr. Fishman.

I'm sorry, which page?

2

Ms. Holmes.

That's okay.

4

Mr. Fishman.

So it's numbered 81.

5

Ms. Holmes.

Yes.

6

Mr. Fishman.

Thank you.

7

Mr. Plews.

3

I apologize.

I'm trying to follow along.

It's the fourth calendar invite, back of the second

page.

8

I don't.

August 19th is my birthday.

BY MS. HOLMES:

9

Q

Oh, fun.

10

A

It's possible this was a "happy birthday."

12

Q

That's okay.

13

And then, on the very last page, on the back -- the number at the bottom is 94 for

11

But I don't remember.

I'm

sorry.

14

those following along -- it's August 23, 2021, and it says, at 1:00, "The Future of Field

15

Operations."

16

Do you remember that meeting?

17

A

No, I don't.

18

Q

Okay.

19

For this trip that she had gone on to Detroit, do you remember that trip in August,

20

the Detroit trip?

21

A

I don't remember that trip.

22

Q

So you weren't on that trip presumably?

23

A

Nope, not to my recollection.

24

Q

No birthday trip to Detroit?

25

Mr. Fishman.

That was a different day.


98

1

Ms. Holmes.

2

Ms. Beca-Barragan.

3

Mr. Fishman.

4
5
6

You're right.

She got back on your birthday.

Are we back on August the 19th.

Yes, apparently.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Okay.

At the bottom of the page 79 -- so that's the second page in the

packet -- Thursday, August 19th, your birthday, there was a meeting at the White House.

7

Do you remember that meeting?

8

A

No, I don't.

9

Q

Okay.

10

Oh, I had one more question -- sorry -- about the quarterly townhalls.

11

best of your knowledge, was voter registration ever discussed at any one of those?

12

A

Not to my knowledge.

13

Q

Okay.

14

The next two exhibits we're going to introduce are 11 and 12.

15

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 11

16

was marked for identification.]

17

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 12

18

was marked for identification.]

19

To the

BY MS. HOLMES:

20

Q

21

will be 12.

Let me distribute them.

The first one I hand you will be 11; the second one

22

So exhibit 11 is a calendar entry showing that, a week after the strategic

23

implementation plan was due at the White House, Administrator Guzman interviewed

24

Jennifer Kim to be the Assistant Administrator for the SBA's Office of Field Operations.

25

So this is September 30, 2021.


99

1
2
3
4

Exhibit 12, just to introduce it, is the bio that is on SBA's website of Ms. Jennifer
Kim.
So, looking at exhibit 11, the calendar entry, were you aware that the
Administrator was interviewing Ms. Kim this day?

5

A

No, I don't recall being aware of that.

6

Q

Okay.

7

Just for continuity, Verratti was in Jennifer Kim's position, and then

Jennifer Kim interviewed to replace her, right?

8

A

Jennifer Kim holds the position that Julie Verratti once did.

9

Q

Okay.

10

the SBA?

11

A

I don't know why Julie left.

12

Q

So you weren't aware that the Administrator was interviewing Ms. Kim, but

To the best of your recollection, do you remember why Verratti left

13

were you aware that someone was being interviewed or the hiring process was underway

14

for a replacement for Ms. Verratti?

15

A

Sorry, I don't recall if I was or wasn't aware of that at the time.

16

Q

Okay.

17

A

Don't recall doing so.

18

Q

Do you, as either Deputy or Chief of Staff, interview people for positions?

19

A

As Deputy Chief of Staff, I typically would not unless the person was

20

Did you interview anyone for that position?

reporting to me, but I may have done so occasionally.

21

Q

Okay.

22

A

As Chief of Staff, if the position is going to go report to me, I typically would.

23

And if the position is a political appointee, I usually but not always will.

24

Q

Is Ms. Kim a political appointee?

25

A

Yes.


100

1

Q

But you didn't interview her?

2

A

No, not to my recollection.

4

Q

Right.

5

Looking at exhibit 12, have you seen Jennifer Kim's bio that's posted on the SBA's

3

Remember, I was Deputy Chief of Staff at this

time.

6

website before?

7

A

I think I've looked at it briefly.

8

Q

I'll give you a minute to read through it so you have a better recollection.

9

To the best of your recollection, when did you first meet Ms. Kim?

10

A

The first time I recall meeting Jen, we had coffee -- and I can't recall if we

11

were actually having coffee or if it was just a sort of a "let's catch up" sort of

12

meeting -- outside the SBA.

13

Q

"Let's catch up," does that mean you guys knew each other before?

14

A

No, sorry, that was a figure of speech --

15

Q

Okay.

16

A

-- meaning, you know -- a coffee chat being a euphemism for "let's have a

17

conversation."

18

Q

Okay.

19

A

That was the first time that I recall meeting her.

20

Q

Do you remember your position at the time?

21

A

I apologize, I don't recall if I was Deputy Chief of Staff or Chief of Staff at the

22

time we first met.

23

Q

Okay.

Do you recall when she was brought on?

24

A

I don't.

I'm sorry.

25

Q

Okay.


101

1

A

Is it in this?

2

Q

No.

3

A

Oh.

4

Q

No, sorry.

5

Mr. Levy.

6

There's a lot of background noise in some other rooms.

BY MS. HOLMES:

7

Q

8

website.

9

I was reacting to the --

I'm going to read the second paragraph of the bio that's posted on the

"She," referring to Ms. Kim, "has worked for over 15 years to strengthen

10

communities and advocate for the public interest.

11

stakeholder engagement specialist serving as a campus organizer, where she recruited

12

and trained student leaders to manage campaigns to increase renewable energy

13

standards, reduce plastic waste, and worked on her efforts to make higher education

14

more affordable.

15

four years, where she led campaigns in support of toxic-free communities, affordable

16

health care, and consumer protections.

17

voter registration in communities of color as well as promoting youth civic engagement.

18

More recently, she worked to strengthen ties between underserved communities and the

19

public health system...."

20
21

Jennifer directed the New Jersey Public Interest Research Group for

She has dedicated many years to increasing

To the best of your knowledge, does Ms. Kim have any experience with small
businesses?

22

A

23

businesses, no.

24

Q

25

She started her career as a

I'm not aware of whether Jen has professional experience with small

Okay.

Everything in her bio that I just read through, which is the main body

of it, discusses her campaign work, her work on increasing voter registration in


102

1

communities of color.

2

Do you find that odd?

3
4

A

Q

9

Many of our employees don't have any particular

In the Office of Field Operations, is it important to have a good

understanding of what small businesses face?

7
8

No, not necessarily.

background with small businesses before they join the agency.

5
6

It doesn't mention anything about small-business experience.

A

I think it's important to be good at outreach and be good at working with the

public.
The Office of Field Operations doesn't set policy, for the most part, for the agency,

10

and so it's not necessary, really, to have deep policy expertise when it comes to small

11

business in that office, but important to have good communication skills.

12
13
14
15
16

Q

Okay.

And as far as you've worked with her since her hiring, has she

exhibited good communication skills?
A

I believe so.

I haven't seen Jen too often in public, but I have no reason to

think that she has not.
Q

Okay.

She also went to the University of Michigan for her undergraduate.

17

Did that, as far as you know, have anything to do with her gaining the position at the

18

Office of Field Operations?

19

A

Not to my knowledge.

20

Q

We're going to jump forward to December of 2021.

21

still the Deputy, right?

We went over that.

22

A

Yes, that's correct.

23

Q

And you transitioned in January of '22?

24

A

I believe it was in May of '22.

25

Q

Oh, May of '22.

Sorry.

At that time, you were


103

1

A

But I'm not certain of that.

2

Q

-ish.

3

A

-- that's my understanding.

4

Q

Okay.

But that's my --

5

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 13

6

was marked for identification.]

7
8
9

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

I'm going to introduce what we marked as majority exhibit 13.

series of calendar entries dated from December 1st through 13th, 2021.

10

We'll start on the first page, December 1st, 2021.

11

Mr. Fishman.

12
13
14
15
16

Again, it's a portion, just to be clear.

There are cutouts, and

there are dates missing, there's all kinds of -- right.
Mr. Eckhardt.

Yes.

These are selective just based on what's relevant for the

questions.
Mr. Fishman.

I just want to be clear, it's not cumulative, it's just whatever you've

identified.

17

Mr. Eckhardt.

Right.

18

Ms. Holmes.

Yes.

19

This is a

And the committee did ask for the Administrator's calendar,

so if we get them and can fill in the blanks for you guys, would love to do so.

20

BY MS. HOLMES:

21

Q

22

Do you recall this meeting in December?

23

A

I don't.

24

Q

Do you have annual priority project meetings with the Administrator?

25

A

Do I personally have annual priority project meetings with the

So, on December 1st, 2021, it says, "Arthur re: FY22 Priority Projects."

Sorry.


104

1

Administrator?

2

Q

Uh-huh.

3

A

No.

4

Q

Okay.

5

A

I'm trying to think -- sorry -- if anything would be classified that way.

6

We have in the past discussed priorities for years, and I've been in meetings about

7

that.

8

Sorry, I understood your question to be, do I meet annually with the Administrator

9

about priority projects?

10

associated with years, yes.

I have had meetings with the Administrator about priorities

11

Q

12

At this time, you said you were still the Deputy.

Okay.

13

months later.

14

projects and not the current Chief?

Was it odd that you were meeting with the Administrator for priority

15

A

16

particularly odd.

17

Q

18

You didn't become Chief until 6

Well, I don't recall what the meeting was about, but, no, I don't think that's

Okay.

Well, it's about fiscal year 2022 priority projects, according to the

invite.

19

So for -- we'll classify it.

20

A

What are priority projects?

Well, in this particular context, since I don't remember this meeting, I

21

couldn't say for sure.

22

Administrator priority projects, it'd be things the Administrator wants to accomplish.

But as a general matter, they would be, if we're talking about

23

Q

Do you remember any of the fiscal year 2022 priority projects?

24

A

No, I'm sorry, I don't.

25

Q

You don't remember any priorities from fiscal year 2022?


105

1

A

I don't remember what would've been specifically categorized in this way,

3

Q

What were the priorities in 2022 for the SBA?

4

A

In fiscal 2022, our top priorities would've still included implementing the

2

no.

5

various COVID emergency relief programs.

6

the big four there:

7

Revitalization Fund, and the Shuttered Venue Operators Grant program.

Those were still pretty live at that point.

So

PPP, COVID EIDL and its associated programs, the Restaurant

8

Q

Okay.

9

A

That wouldn't be a comprehensive list of our priorities, but those would've

10

been big priorities.

11

Q

12

We're going to go to exhibit 13, which is a --

13

A

Fourteen.

14

Q

-- 14.

Okay.

15

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 14

16

was marked for identification.]

17

BY MS. HOLMES:

18

Q

19

This is a -- for the record, it's a press release, published on January 21st, 2022, by

You can go ahead and go through this one.

20

the SBA.

21

Administration, SBA Have Prioritized an Equitable Recovery, Centered on Strengthening

22

Main Street and Supply Chains."

For the record, the title of this document is:

23

Mr. Fishman.

What did I miss.

24

Ms. Holmes.

He's still reading.

25

Mr. Fishman.

Still reading.

I'm sorry.

"One Year Later:

Biden-Harris


106

1

Mr. Plews.

2

Okay.

BY MS. HOLMES:

3

Q

Had you seen this press release prior to me handing it to you?

4

A

It's possible.

5

Q

Okay.

6

As I mentioned, at the top of this document is the SBA's priorities from the prior

7

year.

8

year prior, so 2021.

9
10
11

So this was on January 1st, 2022, so presumably that would be for Jan- -- well, the

Are these the kinds of things that you would discuss with the Administrator about
priorities?
Mr. Levy.

12
13
14

I don't recall it specifically.

Sorry.

Can you rephrase the question?

When you say "these" --

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Are the things that are in this press release, are these the kinds of things that

you would discuss with the Administrator about the SBA's priorities?

15

A

Some, but not all.

16

Q

Can you tell me which ones?

17

A

Sorry.

18

Q

Uh-huh.

19

A

-- or which ones we didn't discuss?

20

Q

Whichever you prefer.

21

A

At this time, I don't remember discussing much about SBICs with her.

22

Q

Okay.

23

A

Bandwidth was heavily consumed at that time by the pandemic emergency

24
25

Which ones we did discuss --

programs, so they're listed first.
Q

Uh-huh.


107

1
2

A

I don't remember discussing National Small Business Week or Veterans Small

Business Week or the Inaugural Innovation Ecosystem Summit.

3

I can't remember if we discussed the Women's Business Centers expansion.

4

A lot of these are stats, so they wouldn't have required much discussion.

5

Mr. Levy.

Is there something in particular here that you want to ask him about.

6

Mr. Plews.

Yeah, I think we can make it -- I don't recall discussing the -- is there

7

something specific?

8

BY MS. HOLMES:

9

Q

Yeah.

I just want to know -- because you had this priority projects meeting,

10

I was trying to refresh your recollection of perhaps maybe some things that would have

11

been discussed at a priorities meeting with the Administrator.

12

A

Is there something specific?

13

Q

How about Administrator Guzman's equity goals?

14

discussing those?

15

A

Ever?

16

Q

Yeah.

17

A

And by "equity goals," are you referring to --

18

Q

The --

19

A

-- objective with any implementation of specific programs or --

20

Mr. Levy.

21

Ms. Holmes.

22

Do you remember

Where are you within the document.
It's the fourth page of the press release, so second physical page,

back.

23

Mr. Levy.

24

Ms. Holmes.

Second physical page, but the back of it.

25

Mr. Fishman.

Page 4.

Wait.

Sorry.

Which page.


108

1

Ms. Holmes.

So page 4, yeah.

2

Mr. Levy.

And --

3

Ms. Holmes.

4
5

Got it.

"Executed on President Biden and Administrator Guzman's Equity

Goals."
Mr. Plews.

6

I don't recall discussing these statistics, though we may have.

BY MS. HOLMES:

7

Q

What were her equity goals, as far as you know?

8

A

Broadly, the agency, I believe, is statutorily mandated to serve underserved

9

communities, which is referenced in the intro language under this section.

10

aware of specific equity goals beyond that, but it's generally a piece of the agency's

11

mandate.

12

Q

Okay.

13

A

I recall some discussions about disaggregated data.

14

I don't recall discussing diversification strategies for contracting.

15

We did at times talk about the RRF, of course --

16

Q

Sure.

17

A

-- and about COVID-EIDL-affiliated pro- -- affiliated Targeted and

18
19
20
21
22
23

I'm not

Supplemental Advance programs.
I don't know that we ever discussed elevating the Office of Women's Business
Ownership.

I don't recall doing so.

I don't recall discussing a reconvening of the Council on Underserved
Communities.
I do recall discussing a focus on particularly small businesses and relief programs.

24

I don't recall if we discussed any of these at the FY '22 priorities meeting from the

25

calendar, because I don't recall that meeting.

I'm speaking now about what I recall


109

1

talking with the Administrator about in this general timeframe --

2

Q

Yeah.

3

A

-- of early 20- -- well, I guess, while I was Deputy Chief of Staff.

4

So that's that section.

5

Q

Okay.

6

A

Oh, I do recall the Community Navigator Pilot Program.

7

Q

Okay.

8

On the second-to-last page, right before "Media contacts," the page right before

9

that, it notes "protecting the basic right to vote."

10

Do you remember talking about that with the Administrator?

11

A

I don't.

12

Q

And then the first not-bolded paragraph on that page:

13
14
15
16
17

Uh-huh.

It doesn't mean I didn't, but I don't recall talking about it.
"... the SBA is

strongly positioned to deliver on President Biden's commitment to equity in 2022."
You said you remember talking about equity.

As part of that, did you understand

voting registration to be attached to equity?
A

I don't recall talking about voter registration.

Speaking logically, I'm not

sure if it would be or wouldn't be, but I don't recall talking about it in that context.

18

Q

Do you recall talking about voter registration with the Administrator at all?

19

A

Not outside of the updates from Congressional and Legislative Affairs about

20

the committee's interest in the topic.


110

1

[1:27 p.m.]

2

BY MS. HOLMES:

3

Q

Do you know what the SBA's mission is?

4

A

Yes.

5

It's rather broad, but conceptually, the mission is to serve small

businesses.

6

Q

Do you think that voter registration fits into that mission?

7

A

I do.

8

Q

How so?

9

A

Two ways:

The National Voter Registration Act applies to the SBA, and that

10

Act does call on the Federal Government to play a role in voter registration.

11

subject to the executive order.

12

public policy gets made for small businesses, and part of making good public policy is for

13

the interest of the people who are being affected by it to be part of the democratic

14

process.

15

business policy.

16

Q

But also, I think part of our role is to ensure that good

So, if small business owners vote, that's presumably a good thing for small

Going back to exhibit 13, the calendar invites.

17

priority projects meeting.

18

meeting at the White House on Monday, December 6th.

19

page number at the bottom is 19.

20

Mr. Levy.

21
22
23

We're also

So you don't remember your

A few days later, Administrator Guzman attended the
So it's the second page, the

December 6, 2021?

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Yes.

At noon, it says, she's arriving at the White House.

Do you

remember this meeting?

24

A

I don't.

25

Q

Later that day -- it's on the next page, page 21.

I'm sorry.
It says, "prep address for


111

1

OFO field team."

2

A

I don't.

3

Q

How often does the Administrator meet with each agency head -- office

4

Do you remember that?

head, sorry, SBA office head?

5

Mr. Levy.

To the best of your knowledge.

6

Mr. Plews.

To the best of my knowledge, it's currently cadenced as somewhere

7

between once a week and once a month.

8

said with all meetings, I would estimate that it probably happens a little bit less than that

9

in practice.

10

That's the cadence of the meeting.

BY MS. HOLMES:

11

Q

Sure.

We talked about OFO all-hands meeting earlier.

And there's

12

another one on this same page, Monday, December 6th.

13

all-hands meeting?

14

A

This is a prep for address that were for field team on the 6th?

15

Q

It's literally the next one.

16

As I have

Do you remember that

Is that the --

So she prepped for it and then addressed the

field team?

17

A

Oh, sorry.

18

Q

Do you remember that?

19

A

No, I don't.

20

Q

Were you ever involved for preparations for her addressing internally office

21
22

Oh, I apologize.

heads?
Mr. Levy.

23

As Deputy Chief of Staff?

BY MS. HOLMES:

24

Q

Yeah, at this time.

25

A

So, I don't know that you would ever address office heads, as that's usually


112

1

just one person, so that would probably be more of a meeting.

2

ever involved in preparing for all hands?

Are you asking if I was

3

Q

Yeah.

4

A

I don't recall being involved in that, but I could've been.

5

recall doing so.

6

Ms. Holmes.

Okay.

7

Mr. Albrecht.

Yes.

8

Ms. Holmes.

Ellen, do you -- we can go off the record.

9

[Discussion off the record.]

10

Ms. Holmes.

11

But no, I don't

I think we're at time, right?

Can we go back on the record for a second?

Mr. Plews' attorney

had a question he wanted to ask.

12

Mr. Levy.

13

Mr. Plews, when the Administrator is going to travel outside of Washington, D.C.,

14
15

Great.

Thank you.

what is the SBA's standard practice with regard to Members of the House or Senate?
Mr. Plews.

The agency standard practice would be to notify the Members of the

16

House or Senate that are in the geography to which the Administrator is traveling, and

17

that, meaning the congressional district for a House Member, the State for a Senator, and

18

that would be done regardless of the party of the Member involved.

19

Mr. Levy.

20

Ms. Holmes.

21

[Recess.]

Thank you.
We can go back off the record.


113

1

[2:09 p.m.]

2

BY MS. HOLMES:

3

Q

4

To start off, we are going to introduce exhibit 15.

All right.

The time is 2:09.

5

the White House on December 8, 2021.

6

Mr. Plews?

We can go back on the record.
This is a fact sheet put out by

Have you seen this fact sheet before,

7

A

I don't recall seeing this fact sheet before.

8

Q

Okay.

It's possible that I have.

Do you recall the White House making the statement that the SBA

9

was the first Federal agency to request designation as a voter registration agency under

10

the NVRA?

11

Mr. Levy.

Objection.

12

Mr. Plews.

I don't recall the White House making that statement.

13

Ms. Holmes.

14

Foundation.

But go ahead.

Were you aware that the SBA was the first Federal agency to

request a designation as a voter registration agency under the NVRA?

15

Mr. Levy.

Same objection, but go ahead.

16

Mr. Plews.

I'm not aware if that is true.

17

you showed me earlier today.

18
19
20

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

And you said, to the best of your knowledge, the only two other States that

the SBA has engaged with on voter registration are Kentucky and Ohio?

21

Mr. Levy.

22

Mr. Fishman.

23

Mr. Levy.

24

Mr. Fishman.

25

I did read that in the press release that

I -Objection.

I don't think he testified -- I'm sorry, go ahead, Josh.

No, go ahead.
I don't believe he testified to that.

BY MS. HOLMES:

I think he --


114

1

Q

2

Utah and Kentucky.

3

A

Okay.

Can you correct me, what were the two States that you said?

I don't know if the agency has engaged with those States or not.

Oh,

We -- I

4

was advised in the past that we had an interest in potentially expanding to those States,

5

and the States that I mentioned were Utah and Kentucky.

6

Q

So potentially, interested in expanding to those States.

8

A

I don't recall who first told me that.

9

Q

To the best of your recollection, have those States been contacted, or the

7

10

How do you know

that?

best of your knowledge?

11

A

I'm afraid I'm not sure.

12

Q

Do you know who Victor Parker is?

13

A

Yes.

14

Q

Can you tell me who he is?

15

A

He's the Deputy Associate Administrator of our Office of Field Operations.

16

Q

How often do you meet with him?

17

A

Victor and I have no recurring one-on-one meetings at this time, that I can

18

recall.

19

I'm not aware of him being part of any regularly scheduled meetings that I attend.

I would say infrequently.

20

Q

21

Administrator?

22

A

Not that I'm aware of.

23

Q

Okay.

24

Administrator?

25

A

Okay.

I have been in meetings with Victor in the past, but

Does he have any regularly scheduled meetings with the

Does Jennifer Kim have regularly scheduled meetings with the

Yes, she does.


115

1

Q

And you said those were on a weekly?

2

A

I don't know if they're weekly or biweekly.

3

Q

Okay.

4

A

Meaning every 2 weeks.

5

Q

The Region 5 administrator, Geri, do you know if he has regular meetings

6

with the Administrator?

7

A

Geri is a her.

8

Q

Sorry, she.

9

A

I don't know of any regular meetings between Geri and the Administrator,

10

and given her role, I don't think any such meetings regularly occur, but I'm not sure.

11
12

Q

And we asked this earlier, you don't have any regularly scheduled meetings

with any of the regional administrators, including Geri, right?

13

A

They are -- they have, in the past, been invited to a monthly all-appointees

14

meeting, which I attend.

15

person only and they're not in person.

16

hasn't been made.

17

Q

Okay.

A

They are used for a variety of purposes.

18

They weren't invited to the last one because we did it in
Not sure if they will be in the future.

A decision

These monthly all-appointee meetings, what are the purpose of

those?

19

Purposes can include advising our

20

appointees about who has left or joined our appointee team, so new hires and

21

departures.

I have used them in the past to remind people of the importance of the

22

Hatch Act.

We have -- let's see.

23

one.

24

liaison.

25

I'm trying to recall another topic from our most recent

I apologize, I can't, but items of note typically shared by me or by our White House

Q

Are any careers at those meetings?


116

1

A

Typically not, no.

2

Q

Okay.

3

A

Uh-huh.

4

Q

Can you tell me what you told them?

5

A

Yeah.

You said you recently reminded them about Hatch Act.

We recently had a Hatch Act training, as we've discussed here,

6

performed by our Office of General Counsel.

7

been unable to attend that training, I'd like them to do a makeup training.

I reminded them that if any of them had

8

Q

Do you remember when that was?

9

A

The monthly appointees meeting?

10

Q

Uh-huh.

11

A

I don't exactly.

Within the last few weeks.

12

Q

Last few weeks.

Does it have anything to do with the ongoing OSC

13

investigation into Hatch Act violations at the SBA?

14

Mr. Fishman.

Objection.

15

Mr. Albrecht.

On what grounds?

16

Mr. Fishman.

No foundation.

17

Ms. Holmes.

OSC communicated to the committee yesterday that there was an

18

active and ongoing investigation at the SBA for a potential Hatch Act violations.

19

aware of that investigation?

20

Ms. Meers.

Could we take a pause, Lauren.

Are you

It's OSC policy neither to confirm

21

nor deny the existence of an investigation, and I'd like to maintain the integrity of a

22

possible investigation.

23

Ms. Holmes.

24

we are free to talk about it.

25

Ms. Meers.

So OSC told us that the investigation is -- exists and is ongoing and
So you can instruct him not to answer, but there's --

I'm not instructing him not to answer --


117

1

Ms. Holmes.

Okay.

2

Ms. Meers.

-- but I'd like to maintain the integrity of a possible investigation.

3

Ms. Holmes.

Yeah.

And congressional investigations don't prohibit discussing

4

ongoing investigations with OSC.

5

sometimes Congress investigates the investigation.

6

and the executive branch on OSC investigations are very much within our rights to ask

7

about.

They are done parallel, sometimes in tandem,
So conversations between Congress

8

Ms. Meers.

I ask that you speak directly with OSC --

9

Ms. Holmes.

I did.

10

Ms. Meers. -- and since you have a point of communication there, that you

11
12
13
14
15

continue that.
Ms. Holmes.

Yes.

I would like to know about his knowledge about the

investigation.
Ms. Meers.

I think we should take a pause for a moment.

Is it okay to step

outside?

16

Ms. Holmes.

17

[Discussion off the record.]

18

Ms. Holmes.

19

We can go off the record.

We can go back on the record.

BY MS. HOLMES:

20

Q

So are you aware of a Hatch Act violation investigation by OSC?

21

A

I received email correspondence from an OSC investigator.

22

Q

Okay.

23

A

He and I have not yet spoken.

24

Q

Okay.

25

A

Sometime in the last couple of months.

When did you get that email?


118

1

Q

Any more specific than that?

2

A

I'm sorry, I don't -- I can't recall specifically.

3

Q

Did you talk to anybody at the SBA about that email?

4

A

Other than discussions with counsel or about the idea of just retaining

5

counsel, no.

6

Q

Okay.

7

A

Not that I can recall.

8

Q

So you didn't talk to the Administrator about it?

9

A

Not that I can specifically recall at this time.

10

doing so.

11

Q

12

Is this the first time you've received a Hatch Act investigation email from the

OSC?

13

Mr. Levy.

14

Ms. Holmes.

15

I don't know that it was a Hatch Act email.
I'm sorry.

Is this the first time you've received correspondence

from the OSC about a potential investigation into Hatch Act violations?

16
17

It's possible, but I can't recall

Mr. Levy.

I don't know that it was an OSC email about a Hatch Act violation,

but --

18

BY MS. HOLMES:

19

Q

Is this the first time you've received an email from OSC?

20

A

Yes, this is the first time I can recall receiving an email from OSC.

21

Q

How did you feel when you got it?

22

Mr. Levy.

23

I don't think we're here to talk about his feelings, but if you want to

answer --

24

Ms. Holmes.

25

Mr. Plews.

It speaks to his state of mind, so I think it's a fair question.
I don't recall.


119

1

Mr. Levy.

2
3
4

Objection.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

All right.

As far as you know, in that email or any of the following

correspondence, was a potential Hatch Act violation brought up?

5

A

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble recalling the specifics of the email sent to me.

6

Q

Okay.

7

A

I don't think I could say.

8

Q

Okay.

9

A

Correct.

10

Q

Okay.

11

A

Just to confirm we're using the same definition, by "resource partners," you

12

But it was an email about a potential investigation?

Do you regularly meet with the SBA resource partners?

mean the networks of nonprofits that are funded by the SBA --

13

Q

Yes.

14

A

-- such as SBDC’S?

15

Q

Yep.

16

A

No, I don't regularly meet with resource partners.

17

I have in the past met

with at least one that I can recall.

18

Q

Which one?

19

A

I met with an SBDC, or staff from an SBDC, in either Massachusetts or New

20

Hampshire.

21

Q

22

resource partners?

23

A

24
25

Okay.

As far as you are aware, does the Administrator regularly meet with

Hmm, I don't know if the Administrator regularly meets with resource

partners, no, I'm sorry, I don't know.
Q

Have you ever been at a meeting with the Administrator and resource


120

1

partners?

2

A

Not that I can recall.

3

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 16

4

was marked for identification.]

5

BY MS. HOLMES:

6

Q

We will go to Plews Majority Exhibit 16.

This is an email chain between

7

Victor Parker, who we discussed earlier, and Jonathan Brater.

8

elections for the State of Michigan.

9

September 14, 2023.

10

Michigan, and met with Mr. Brater at the SBA field office on August 25, 2023, to discuss

11

voter registration plans.

12

email?

This email is dated between August 9th and

The email chain indicates that Mr. Parker took a trip to Detroit,

Before I handed you this document, were you aware of this

13

A

No, I don't recall this email.

14

Q

Okay.

15

Mr. Levy.

16

He is the director of

He's not on it.

BY MS. HOLMES:

17

Q

Correct.

18

A

Sorry, I don't recall being aware of this email.

19

Q

Okay.

20

A

No, I was not -- I don't recall being aware of a trip by Mr. Parker to Detroit in

21

August of 2023.

22

Q

23

or their deputies?

24

Mr. Levy.

25

Okay.

Were you aware of Mr. Parker's trip to Detroit in August of 2023?

Do you often track the visits and/or trips of associate administrators

Mr. Plews personally?

BY MS. HOLMES:


121

1

Q

Yes.

2

A

No, not often.

3

Q

Are there instances where you would be aware of such trips?

4

A

Yes.

5

Q

Can you explain what those instances would be?

6

A

If they preemptively reached out to inform me about it or ask me about it.

7

Q

Are you aware of trips by any associate administrator or deputy associate

8
9
10

administrator to Michigan in the last year?
A

Nothing is coming to mind beyond the trip by Mr. Parker that you just made

me aware of, which, apologies, I'm not seeing a date.

11

Q

It was August of 2023.

12

A

So, okay, yeah.

13

Q

Okay.

14

Was it within last year?

No, no others that I can recall at this time.

We talked about the MOU a little bit earlier.

As far as you know,

has the SBA conducted any activities under this -- that MOU?

15

Mr. Levy.

16

Mr. Albrecht.

4 and 5.

17

Mr. Eckhardt.

4 and 5.

18

Mr. Levy.

19

Ms. Holmes.

20

of agreement is 4.

21

Mr. Levy.

22

Ms. Holmes.

This is exhibit --

MOU is exhibit 5, right?
Yeah, the memorandum of understanding is 5; the memorandum

Do you want to repeat the question?
Yeah, you can take a minute and refresh your recollection, and

23

then I will repeat the question.

24

Mr. Fishman.

25

Mr. Levy.

No.

I'm sorry, did you say the MOA was 4, right?
Yeah, MOA is 4; MOU is 5.


122

1

Mr. Fishman.

2

these back apparently, but yes.

I just want to make sure.

3

Ms. Holmes.

We always recollect them.

4

Mr. Plews.

You can repeat the question.

5

Not that it matters since I'm giving

BY MS. HOLMES:

6

Q

7

MOU to date?

8

A

Okay.

As far as you know, has the SBA conducted any activities under this

My understanding is that a URL has been created, I don't know if by SBA or

9

by Michigan, that directs to Michigan's voter registration page or voter registration

10

information of some type.

11

publicly posted on any other public website.

12

immediately seeing listed in the MOU that I'm aware has taken place so far, but there

13

may be others, or I may be missing something in my quick review here.

14

My understanding is that URL, although created, is not yet
That's the only activity that I'm

Q

Okay.

A

I have a high-level understanding of those responsibilities, not a detailed

18

Q

Okay.

19

publicly posted.

20

A

15

MOU?

16
17

21

Are you generally aware of the SBA's responsibilities under the

one.
So you talked about the URL.

You said it's been created but not

How did you learn that the URL was created?

Hmm, I first heard that during a hearing held by the committee, I believe last

week, and it was confirmed to me by agency staff later.

22

Q

Okay.

23

A

That I was told by agency staff.

24

Q

Okay.

25

A

No, not that I recall.

How do you know it's not publicly posted?

Did they tell you when they planned to publicly post it?


123

1

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 17

2

was marked for identification.]

3
4
5

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Okay.

We're going to introduce March 19th press release from SBA.

will be Majority Exhibit 17.

This

We'll give you a minute to look through it.

6

A

Okay.

7

Q

Had you seen this press release prior to me handing it to you?

8

A

I may have.

9

Q

How far in advance of this press release were you made aware that the SBA

10

I don't recall at this time.

and Michigan had entered into an MOU?

11

Mr. Levy.

Objection.

12

Mr. Plews.

I don't know that they had entered into the MOU prior to this press

13

release.

Foundation.

I'm not aware of the date.

But go ahead.

I could consult the MOU, if you'd like.

14

Ms. Holmes.

15

[Discussion off the record.]

16

Ms. Holmes.

17

I'd like to note for the record that the Representative from Pennsylvania, Dan

18

Meuser, has come in and would like to give a statement, as well as his staff member, Matt

19

Perricone.

We're going to go off the record real quick.

Okay.

We can go back on the record.

20

Mr. Meuser, go ahead.

21

Mr. Meuser.

22

This is Congressman Dan Meuser, a Member of the U.S. House of Representatives,

Okay.

So I shall read this, and I wrote it so I may riff a little.

23

representing the Ninth Congressional District of Pennsylvania, and a Member of the

24

House Committee on Small Business.

25

nature of the issue the committee has requested Mr. Plews' presence to discuss.

I'm here today due to what we think is the serious


124

1

During a time where our Nation's small business owners are struggling with

2

inflation and regulations and workforce shortages and difficulty accessing capital, the

3

agency, the one agency supposedly dedicated to their support in Washington, the SBA, is,

4

in our view, using very valuable taxpayer-funded resources to further the political

5

campaign of President Biden and other members of the Democrat parties in Congress.

6

On March 19, 2024, the SBA entered in a new voter registration memorandum, we

7

all know as MOUs, with the Michigan Department of State to help facilitate voter

8

registration in the State of Michigan.

9

committee was conducting oversight of the SBA, other members of the committee and I

10

expressed concerns about the, what one could feel is suspicious timing and location of

11

the initiative and whether the SBA is acting outside of its mission, and a potential

12

violation of the Hatch Act to inappropriately influence the election prospects of the

13

President.

14

The next day, during a hearing where this

During the hearing, I asked Administrator Guzman after, frankly, learning about

15

this from Representative Stauber in his previous questioning, every email and every

16

official correspondence, as I asked Administrator Guzman, could be forwarded to me,

17

every email and every official correspondence related to this MOU and the activities in

18

Michigan could we receive, and anything related to registering voters.

19

response, and I recall, was affirmative, that, yes, certainly that would be provided.

20

So 11 weeks later, the SBA has failed to sufficiently respond to this request.

21

committee did follow up with a letter on April 4th requesting similar documentation but

22

only a select few documents were provided, and that was after several weeks of delay.

23

So, of course, it begs the question, why the delay?

24

requested?

25

matters within the scope of the SBA, it should be made a public record, and there should

And her

The

Why not provide the documentation

If this was an up-and-up MOU that they were -- you know, was done for


125

1
2

be nothing to hide.
Adding to our suspicion is the hiring of Jennifer Kim as the SBA's associate director

3

of field operations in March 2022, 3 months after the SBA began negotiating the

4

agreement with Michigan.

5

Ms. Kim has no small business experience, which is -- can be found from the website and

6

from our review, but she does have ties to Michigan and a background in campaigns of

7

very well-known Democrats and voter registration efforts, including work on Hillary

8

Clinton's and Joe Biden's presidential campaigns.

As anyone can see from Ms. Kim's bio on the SBA website,

9

So it is a little bit alarming that the SBA boasts on its website about hiring

10

someone and expressing no relevance or any, actually, small business experience.

11

So it begs the question, who hired Jennifer Kim and why?

What small business

12

credentials does she have?

13

personally, and as a Member of Congress and as Member of the SBA Small Business

14

Committee, would like to know, on behalf of the small businesses that we advocate for

15

and represent, and fight for, why Jennifer Kim was hired at $183,100 to work at the SBA?

16

What small business experience does she have?

I would like to see her job description.

I

For someone with no small business

17

experience, only experience in political organizing and campaigns, again, what is her job

18

description?

19

what her background is, and this has no positive effect on small businesses, and it's

20

potentially illegal, an illegal use of taxpayer dollars.

21

So before this is over, we will find out what Jennifer Kim does for the SBA and small

22

businesses and who hired her and why.

I doubt the answer is to register voters for Joe Biden, but that seems to be

So we do -- we will continue this.

23

So as we all know, this entire situation worsened on April 17th when one Tyler

24

Robinson, senior advisor -- big title -- at the SBA was on camera admitting that the SBA

25

and Administrator Guzman were being used as a de facto campaign arm for President


126

1

Biden's reelection.

2

campaigning for Biden, Robinson responded, "Yes."

3

Administrator Guzman, was going to these critical background States and basically

4

campaigning for President Biden, Robinson again responded, "Yeah."

5

When asked if Guzman, Administrator Guzman was indirectly
When asked if Guzman was, again,

So he added, "Any time we go, we try to visit a Member of Congress if they're a

6

Democrat because then we can help them get reelected as well.

7

like, yes, go.

8

the two Members of Congress because they're Republicans."

9

the SBA's -- seem to reveal, shall we say, the SBA's partisan motives, and make its

10

involvement in voter registration even more concerning.

The White House was

Don't invite the other Senator because he's a Republican, and don't invite
So these comments reveal

11

Despite his salient commentary on video, Mr. Robinson claims he did not know

12

anything about the partisan nature of these activities and was only trying to impress a

13

date, I was informed.

14

was an astronaut.

15

Yankees.

16

either knew about it and he was right, or he's some sort of profit.

17

So let's say he was just trying to impress a girl.

He didn't say he

He didn't say he was playing -- he was -- got a tryout with the

What he described was exactly what we suspected was going on.

So he

So moving along, the committee has done its own investigation of these claims

18

and found that they do, in fact, have merit.

19

of involvement in visits from Administrator Guzman, even though in conversations I was

20

told, Oh yes, we'll be up in Pennsylvania.

21

I myself have personally experienced a lack

We'll be sure to notify you.

The Administrator visited Scranton, slightly outside my district, but no more than

22

8 miles from where I reside.

23

Small Businesses Committee, I read about it in the newspaper the next day and was not

24

made aware of the event.

25

out of the 31 SBA events held with Members of Congress -- all right, this isn't the data I

Despite my proximity to the event and position on the

And really, really -- actually, no surprise, the record shows


127

1

understood -- 27 were with Democrats and only four were with Republicans.

2

I was told it was 70 -- I thought it was three out of 73?

3

Mr. Perricone.

Uh --

4

Mr. Meuser.

Okay.

5

Mr. Levy.

6

Mr. Meuser.

7

Mr. Levy.

8

Mr. Meuser.

Well, we'll double-check those numbers.

Who is the person who just spoke?
His name is Matt Perricone.

Okay.

I just want to make sure he's on record.

Okay.

Thank you, sir.

Anyway, so the SBA's mission -- all right.

If those are the

9

numbers, it's still minimal, four out of -- 27 Democrats, four Republicans, not exactly a

10

balanced approach.

So the SBA's mission is to aid counsel, assist and protect small

11

business interests.

The agreement with the Michigan Department of State, however,

12

aims to promote civic engagement and voter registration, which is drastically outside the

13

SBA's scope.

14

unrelated to its mission?

15

This raised the question, why is the SBA involved in activities so completely

So, you know, during a time where our economy is weak and small businesses are

16

troubled, utilizing the limited taxpayer resources and time to advance partisan political

17

campaigns does show a disregard for our Nation's small business and gross administrative

18

malpractice, which concerns must be addressed and answered by the SBA, beginning with

19

officials directly involved, like Mr. Plews.

20

the work we do in this committee, and it is appalling that we need to remind the SBA it is

21

their responsibility to do the same.

Small businesses are at the heart of this -- of

22

So we will continue to work with Chairman Williams and the other members of

23

this committee to thoroughly investigate this matter and ensure the SBA is fulfilling its

24

mission to aid counsel, assist and protect the interest of small business, not those of a

25

political campaign.


128

1

Ms. Holmes.

2

Mr. Meuser was talking about.

3

to find online, on Twitter, and through press releases, there have been a total of 80 trips

4

taken; 27 of those trips have invited a Democrat Member of Congress, and only four have

5

included a Republican Member of Congress.

And for the record, I just want to clarify the numbers that
There's been -- from what the committee has been able

Just clarifying the stats.

6

Mr. Meuser.

And if I can clarify --

7

Ms. Holmes.

Yes, absolutely.

8

Mr. Meuser. -- Michigan visits were double that of any other State.

9

Ms. Holmes.

It's been far, far more frequent trips to Michigan than other States.

10

Mr. Meuser.

So we're not basing this on a recording of an individual whom, you

11

know, comes across as kind of unprofessional, we'll use that word.

12

is, so we're hoping that you stop it and come clean and focus on what the Small Business

13

Administration is supposed to do, because it's unbelievably offensive.

14

say.

15

Ms. Holmes.

16

The majority will continue questioning.

17

we were talking about the press release for the MOU.

18

Mr. Levy.

19
20

Okay.

I mean, it is what it

That's all I have to

Thank you, Mr. Meuser.
So right before we went off the record,
You --

Exhibit 17?

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

This is exhibit 17, yep.

Can you just clarify for me real quick, did you say

21

you couldn't remember if you had advance notice of the MOU, or you couldn't remember

22

when you were notified?

23

A

What do you mean by advance notice?

24

Q

When -- prior to the press release, did you get advance notice before it went

25

out the door?


129

1

A

That the press release was going out?

2

Q

Yes.

3

A

No, I don't recall getting that.

4

Q

Okay.

5

A

I may have.

6

Q

Did you have advance notice that the MOU had gone into effect or been

7
8
9

signed prior to this press release?
A

Prior to the press release, no, I don't recall having notice of that prior to

March 19th.

10

Q

So on March 19th you found out that --

11

A

No.

12

As I've said before, I don't know when I was first notified of the MOU

taking -- being signed.

13

Q

But you can't remember if it was before or after the press release either?

14

A

No.

15

Q

Okay.

We talked about the URL being the first part of the MOU of one of

16

the SBA's responsibilities.

17

paragraph.

18

to use to drive online visitors to register to vote.

19

also allow MDOS, Michigan Department of State, officials to conduct in-person voter

20

registration at the SBA's small business outreach events."

21

of the MOU?

22

A

The second sentence?

23

Q

Yes.

24

Mr. Levy.

25

Ms. Holmes.

If you look in exhibit 17, we're on the second page, the fourth

It says, "As part of the MOU, the MDOS will create a unique URL for the SBA

The MOU is at exhibit 5 -Five.

The SBA's Michigan Field Office may

Were you aware of that part


130

1

Mr. Levy.

-- if you want to look at it.

2

Mr. Plews.

When you say was I aware, do you mean prior to you reading it to me

3

just now or --

4

BY MS. HOLMES:

5

Q

Yes.

6

A

-- or what's your timeframe reference?

7

Q

Prior to me reading it to you.

8

A

I'm sorry, I can't recall.

9

Q

So you were made aware of the URL at some point?

10

A

Yes.

11

Q

But you don't remember being made aware of the second part, which was

12

MDOS officials attending in-person events?

13

A

Correct.

14

Q

Okay.

Since you seem to know more about the URL, you can't recall when

15

you found out about it.

16

Mr. Levy.

17

Ms. Holmes.

18

Mr. Levy.

Yeah.

19

Mr. Plews.

Yeah, it was when I recall --

20

Do you know where --

He did tell you already.
Oh, you did?

BY MS. HOLMES:

21

Q

Oh, here was when you first heard about it.

22

A

-- first hearing about the existence of the URL, meaning that it was active, or

Q

Live, okay.

23

live.

24
25

MOU?

Do you recall when you first heard about URL being part of the


131

1
2

A

I had heard of the concept of a URL being part of this initiative prior to that

point, but I don't recall when I first was made aware that it was part of the --

3

Q

Okay.

4

A

That would be fair to say.

5

Q

Okay.

6

A

Potentially.

7

Q

Okay.

8

A

My understanding is it will be posted on SBA.Gov.

9

Q

What, the home page?

10

A

That I don't know.

11

Q

Okay.

12

A

I also don't know that.

13

Q

Okay.

Had you known about it for a couple of months?

A year?
There I don't know.

Do you know where the SBA plans to post the URL?

Will it be posted anywhere else?

When we talked to Jennifer Kim a couple of weeks ago, she

14

mentioned that it might be included on brochures or handouts.

15

you've heard?

16

A

No, I don't recall hearing that before.

17

Q

Okay.

18

gives.

Is that fair to say?

Is that something that

She also mentioned PowerPoints for presentations that the SBA

Do you recall that?

19

A

That the URL would be on PowerPoints?

20

Q

At the last slide of a PowerPoint after a presentation by the SBA.

21

A

I'm sorry, I can't recall if I'd heard that before or not.

22

Q

If the URL has been created but is not active, how is it helping small

23

businesses register to vote?

24

A

When you say it's not active, what do you mean?

25

Q

You said it wasn't actively posted to the public.


132

1
2

A

Yeah.

So if it's been created but it's not posted on another website, how is

it helping small businesses register to vote?

I would presume that it's not doing so yet.

3

Q

Are you aware of any registration coming through that URL?

4

A

No, I'm not aware of that.

5

Q

Okay.

The second part of the MOU, like we discussed, was MDOS officials

6

conducting in-person voter registration at SBA's small business outreach events.

7

said, until I said it to you, you hadn't been made aware of that provision.

8

A

To my recollection.

9

Q

To your recollection, okay.

10
11

You

Is that --

So to the best of your knowledge, have any

events had in-person voter registration occur?
A

To the best of my knowledge, no.

To the best of my knowledge, the only

12

implementation step that could be characterized as externally facing is the existence of

13

the URL.

14

Q

Okay.

15

A

But I may be unaware of something.

16

Q

Okay.

17

Michigan.

18

A

No, I don't.

19

Q

The press release goes -- let me find the paragraph, sorry.

On April 25, 2024, there was an in-person SBA event in Dearborn,

Do you remember that event?

So it's the last

20

paragraph and a little bit on to the last page.

21

will also encourage voter registration nationwide by including information on Vote.Gov in

22

marketing materials on the SBA's website and social media channels, and through signage

23

at SBA offices and events throughout the country" --

It says, "In addition to this MOU, the SBA

24

Mr. Fishman.

I'm sorry, where are we?

25

Ms. Holmes.

It's the press release --


133

1

Mr. Fishman.

I see.

2

Ms. Holmes.

Bottom.

3

Mr. Fishman.

I got you.

4

Ms. Holmes.

Yep.

5

Mr. Fishman.

Thank you.

6
7

Bottom?

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

-- "to learn more about registering to vote in Michigan" -- it has the link to

8

Michigan Secretary of State website, "and for more information about SBA's loan

9

programs, financial assistance, and other services visit SBA.Gov."

10

So starting at the beginning of this paragraph, or sorry, the "In addition to," how is

11

the SBA encouraging voter registration nationwide with their information on Vote.Gov?

12

Is it in marketing materials, as far as you know, right now?

13

A

I am not aware of whether it is or isn't.

14

Q

Okay.

15

A

No, I'm not aware if -- whether the information about Vote.Gov is up on

16

SBA.Gov.

17

Q

Social media channels?

18

A

Also not aware of that.

19

Q

And any signage at SBA offices or events throughout the country?

20

A

No, I'm not aware of whether it is or is not in those forms.

21

Q

On the last page, that last sentence says, "For more information about SBA's

Are you aware if it's on SBA's website?

22

loan programs, financial assistance, and other services," is that something that's

23

in -- standard on every press release?

24

about loan programs?

25

A

I'm afraid I don't know.

You just remind people where to find information


134

1

Q

Okay.

2

A

I can't recall if I have or haven't.

3

Q

Do you look at the press releases when they go out?

4

A

Typically not.

5

Q

Do you know how many languages the SBA translates things on their website

A

I don't.

6

Have you seen it on any other press releases?

into?

7

I know that there is some Spanish language translation.

I'm not

8

sure how many languages total the parts of the site -- sorry, the site or parts of the site

9

are translated to.

10

Q

Are you aware of any of the voter registration materials being translated as

A

I'm not sure -- sorry, when you say voter registration materials, what do you

14

Q

Things referenced in the MOU or any of the Vote.Gov.

15

A

No, I'm not aware whether those were translated or not.

16

Q

Okay.

11

well?

12
13

17

mean?

So aside from the existence of the URL, as far as you know, no

actions have occurred under the MOU?

18

A

No external-facing ones.

19

Q

What about the internal-facing ones?

20

A

I'm also aware the agency is developing internal procedures in the form of a

21

standard operating procedure, an SOP.

22

Q

When will those be distributed to staff?

23

A

I don't know.

24

Q

Okay.

25

as you know?

They haven't hit my office yet, as far as I'm aware.

What is included in the standard operating procedure for this, as far


135

1

A

I'm afraid I don't know beyond that the intent of that standard operating

2

procedure will be to give further shape to this initiative, so presumably set up procedures

3

for it.

4

Q

Who did you talk to about the standard operating procedure creation?

5

A

I was made aware of that by our Office of General Counsel.

6

Q

And they didn't give you a timeline?

7

A

Not that I can recall.

8

Q

It's been nearly 3 months since the MOU was signed, and the MOU itself was

9

negotiated over the course of 2 years.

10

that the SBA has a rollout planned for this MOU, but you can't recall learning about the

11

rollout plan for this MOU?

Given this substantial lead-up, I would anticipate

12

A

What do you mean by "rollout plan"?

13

Q

Implementation plan, rollout plan, launching of this aside from the press

14

release.

15

A

As I mentioned, I've been made aware that there would be an SOP.

16

Q

But that's it?

17

A

I'm not aware of other implementation steps, no.

18

Q

Implementation steps that have occurred or will occur?

19

A

Other planned implementation steps.

20

Q

Okay.

21

A

I don't know.

22

Q

I think the SBA's official position has been that this is incredibly important to

Well -- no, I'm not.

Does the SBA intend to start these actions before the election?

23

register small business owners to vote in order to make sure that their voices are heard in

24

elections.

25

substantial amount of resources to create and execute this MOU, but have no plan for

I think that was the purpose we discussed earlier.

They've expended a


136

1
2
3
4

rolling it out, which seems incredibly illogical.
We're going to look back at exhibit 4, which is the signed MOU, if everyone wants
to pull that back up.
Mr. Levy.

It says that the agency shall --

Did you have a question?

5

know if you had a question.

6

Ms. Holmes.

7

Mr. Levy.

8

Ms. Holmes.

You just made a long statement.

No.

Okay.

I would ask you not characterize my client's testimony.

I wasn't characterizing his testimony.

9

the committee stands.

10

Mr. Levy.

11

Ms. Holmes.

Yeah, anytime.

12

Mr. Fishman.

Which exhibit are we on?

13

Ms. Holmes.

We're on exhibit 4.

14

Mr. Fishman.

So the MOA?

15

Ms. Holmes.

Yes.

16

Mr. Fishman.

Yes.

17
18

I didn't

Great.

Appreciate that clarification.

I was summarizing where

Thank you.

I'm sorry.

Thank you.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Page two, under training, it says, "The agency shall provide voter registration

19

training to all personnel conducting activities under this MOA, the memorandum of

20

agreement."

21

any other training that agency personnel will conduct under this MOA, MOU?

Other than the SOPs that are in progress, have you been made aware of

22

Mr. Fishman.

23

materials, just to be clear.

24
25

I just want to object.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

What are the SOPs used for?

I don't think he said SOPs would be training


137

1

A

2

initiative.

3

Q

4

I don't know.

Okay.

I'm aware that they'll be used in some way to implement this

As far as you know, will agency personnel be trained on the MOU or

its implementation?

5

A

I can see that it -- that the MOA refers to that, so it stands to reason.

I do

6

not recall being briefed on whether there will be training or what that training will look

7

like.

8

referred to one SOP.

9

And just a very small point of clarification, I think I heard you say SOPs; I just

Q

Okay.

So this clause that we're talking about, it says the agency will

10

provide voter registration training to all personnel.

11

So I'm wondering if you've heard about any training materials being created for the

12

purpose of training?

13

A

I have not.

14

Q

Okay.

15

Mr. Levy.

16
17
18

That includes MDOS employees.

I'm sorry.

Unless the SOP is one.

He just doesn't know whether it is or isn't.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Sure.

Still on page two, the MOU states that the SBA may provide

additional assistance or services at its discretion.

Do you see where we're looking?

19

A

Could you give me the Roman numeral?

20

Q

It's the IV(a), second sentence.

21

A

Six in?

22

Mr. Levy.

23

Six in.

BY MS. HOLMES:

24

Q

Yeah.

25

A

Okay.

"The agency may provide additional assistance or services" --


138

1

Q

Yeah.

2

A

Yep.

3

Q

Do you have any knowledge of assistance or services that the SBA's

4

Okay.

I'm with you.

considering other than this MOU, in addition to what's been stated in the MOU?

5

A

No, I don't, not that I can recall.

6

Q

Okay.

7

On page two to three of the MOU, let me find the exact Roman numeral for me, it

8

states that the SBA is required to provide the same level of assistance to all applicants in

9

completing electronic voter registration forms as is provided with respect to other

10

non-VRA services provided by the agency, unless the applicant specifically refuses such

11

assistance.

As far as you know, is this MOU going to be -- scratch that, actually.

12

Mr. Fishman.

I'm sorry, what page?

13

Ms. Holmes.

Yeah, we'll get that for you just a second.

14

Mr. Levy.

15

Ms. Holmes.

Yeah, it's on page three.

16

Mr. Eckhardt.

Roman numeral VII, subsection C, on top of the third page.

17

Ms. Meers.

On the MOA or the MOU?

18

Ms. Holmes.

MOA.

19

Mr. Fishman.

Yes, I apologize.

We're going -- yes, thank you.

20

Ms. Holmes.

Yes, there's a lot.

All good.

21
22

Page three.

Exhibit Number 4.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

All right.

I'll read it again.

"The SBA is required to provide the same level

23

of assistance to all applicants in completing electronic voter registration application forms

24

as is provided with respect to other non-VRA services provided by the agency, unless the

25

applicant specifically refuses such assistance."

Were you aware of this clause before we


139

1

just read through it?

2

A

No, I don't recall reading this clause before.

3

Q

Okay.

This clause seems to me that someone applying for a loan and

4

somebody applying for a loan and also registering to vote is going to get the same

5

treatment.

6

Mr. Levy.

7
8

Is that correct?

Is it your understanding reading it right now?

Can you repeat that question?

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Sure.

This clause seems to mean that someone applying for a loan, and

9

someone applying for a loan, but also registering to vote at the same time, get the same

10

treatment.

Is that correct, to your understanding, at this present moment?


140

1

[3:02 p.m.]

2

Mr. Plews.

3

To be honest, I'm not sure what this clause means.

BY MS. HOLMES:

4

Q

Okay.

5

A

The types of assistance provided for different forms of programs the SBA

6

provides are very different --

7

Q

Okay.

8

A

-- and so I'm having a hard time understanding what the "same level of

9

assistance" would mean.

10

Q

11

The SBA has been fairly vocal about saying, everyone who wants to register to

Okay.

12

vote through the SBA's website will be able to register to vote through the SBA's website.

13

That was stated in our hearing last week, that there would be no delineation between

14

Republicans and Democrats when registering voters under this MOU.

15

However, as we've talked through, the Administrator has some discretion over her

16

travel and she has discretion to determine where she goes for events, to some extent.

17

Is that right?

18

A

Is it right that the Administrator has some discretion over where she travels?

19

Q

Uh-huh.

20

A

Yeah, that's a fair statement.

21

Q

So the Administrator could decide to only go to localities and States that

22

would have a high likelihood of Democrat voters being present; is that fair?

23

right?

Is that

She could make that determination if she wanted to?

24

A

Hmm.

25

Q

Yes.

Could you repeat the question?

Sorry.

The Administrator has discretion to decide where she goes, right?


141

1

A

That's correct.

2

Q

Okay.

3

So, if she has discretion to decide where she goes, does she also

have the discretion to only go to Democrat-led States or localities?

4

Mr. Levy.

5

Ms. Holmes.

6

Mr. Plews.

7

Ms. Holmes.

8

Mr. Plews.

Yeah, go ahead, if you want to repeat it, that --

9

Mr. Levy.

Let her rephrase.

10

Mr. Plews.

Okay.

11
12
13

For what purpose?
I'm just asking if she could make that determination.
Um -I'll rephrase --

Yeah.

Feel free to --

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

I was going to say, is there something that prevents -- or, requires the

Administrator to go to equally Republican and Democrat States and/or localities?

14

Mr. Levy.

15

Ms. Holmes.

16

Mr. Levy.

17

Ms. Holmes.

18

Mr. Plews.

For what purpose?
For events and travel.

As a general matter?
Yes.
The SBA serves all of America's small businesses.

We would have a

19

vested agency interest in connecting with as many small businesses as we can.

20

limitation of the type you're describing doesn't sound productive.

21

Now, the MOU -- or, the MOA has a variety of prohibitions on the voter

22

registration activities covering the MOA at all becoming political or partisan.

23

asking about the Administrator's travel.

24
25

A

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Correct.

But you're


142

1

A

I'm unsure of whether or not there is some specific hard and fast

2

requirement that would prevent an Administrator from traveling only to States led by

3

members of one party or another.

4

would have an interest in serving small businesses in all States.

5

Q

I can say that any Administrator, regardless of party,

And as Mr. Meuser pointed out, the Administrator's travel, from what's

6

publicly available, has historically been to Democrat-led areas and/or areas where

7

Democrat Members will also attend.

8

I'm not asking you to verify that or not.

I'm just asking:

She has the discretion

9

to go to these areas that she chooses, or is someone else telling her where she needs to

10

go?

11

A

12

where she travels.

13

Q

14

You said at the beginning that you worked as the C- -- well, not "CIO" --

15

A

There wasn't a -- you can finish the question.

16

Q

You were involved in data and analytics at the SBA at one point in your

17

career.

The Administrator runs the SBA.

She has ultimate authority to decide

Okay.

Does the SBA have data-retention policies that you are aware of?

18

A

19

I'm sorry, I don't know -- I can't recall for a fact at this time if we do.

20

I'm trying to reflect on whether I had firsthand knowledge of what they are.
I would

presume an organization like ours does.

21

Q

22

Are there restrictions around what data the SBA is permitted to keep on its

23
24
25

That's fair.

servers, as far as you know?
A

Well, one thing that comes to mind is, classified information can only be

contained in certain types of systems.

I'm not immediately able to think of a rule that


143

1

would prevent the agency from having certain types of data on its servers generally

2

outside of classified -- the rules around classified information, but that doesn't mean that

3

no such rules exist.

4

Q

5

You guys deal with a lot of personally identifiable information, right?

6

A

Yeah, I believe we do.

7

Q

Do you know what safeguards exist to ensure that that PII doesn't get out?

8

Ms. Meers.

I just want to take a pause.

9

Ms. Holmes.

In the MOU, it discusses data retention.

10

Ms. Meers.

And the --

11

Ms. Holmes.

I'm sorry?

12

Ms. Meers.

So is this data retention specific to the MOU?

13

Ms. Holmes.

Generally, and then to the MOU, yes.

14

Ms. Meers.

Because if it's in the MOU, then it should involve, then, the

15

Where are we in scope?

discussion of data retention for the MOU, not throughout the whole entire SBA.

16
17

Okay.

Ms. Holmes.
scope.

Okay.

You can make that objection.

I think that it is in the

So, if you would like to have a conversation afterwards, we can.

18

BY MS. HOLMES:

19

Q

But, for now, if you could please answer the question.

20

A

Could you repeat it?

21

Q

Yeah.

22

be made public?

23

A

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

What safeguards exist to ensure that that PII does not get hacked,
Are you aware of any?
The agency maintains cybersecurity personnel.

The agency is

24

subject to a variety of government-wide cybersecurity standards which I believe are fairly

25

robust.

We provide reporting, I believe, to Congress and to OMB about those standards.


144

1

I am not the agency's expert on them, but I think it's a fair assumption that they serve to

2

protect PII at the agency.

3

Q

4

On page 3 of exhibit 4, the memorandum of agreement, it states that, "The

5

Agency shall have proper security controls in place for the unique URL to prevent redirect

6

attacks and similar exploits.

7

collected, stored, or distributed by the Agency to or from the Michigan Department of

8

State, and Michigan Department of State shall not provide PII to the Agency."

Okay.

No Personally-Identifiable Information (PII) shall be

9

Do you have any awareness of these security controls in place for this MOU?

10

A

11

Would these security controls be with respect just to the URL that was

produced toward the MOU?

12

Q

It says the unique URL and then PII not being collected and stored, so I guess

14

A

I'm sorry, what -- I apologize.

15

Q

Yep.

16

A

Page 3?

17

Q

It's Bates stamped "SBA Response_10," if that's helpful.

18

A

The paragraph starting, "The Agency shall have proper security controls in

19

place"?

20

Q

Uh-huh.

21

A

And your question is, does the agency have controls in place for preventing

13

22
23
24
25

both.

PII from being collected, stored, or distributed?
Q

Both.

So are you aware of the proper security controls in place for the

unique URL and the PII?
A

I'm not aware of the security controls in place for the URL, and I'm not aware


145

1

of the controls in place around the PII.

2

being transmitted to the agency.

3

State website.

4

Q

5

Ms. Beca-Barragan.

6

Ms. Holmes.

7
Q

So we have a few questions on that, actually.
You only have 4 minutes left.

Okay.

On page 3, paragraph (d) at the top of the page, it says the SBA is to "accept

completed voter registration forms from applicants through the unique URL."

10
11

My understanding is the URL directs to a Michigan

BY MS. HOLMES:

8
9

Yes.

I'm afraid I don't know how -- if any PII is even

And then (e) says, "Transmit each completed voter registration application to the
appropriate election official."

12

So, if it was just a URL redirecting to MDOS's website, there would be no need for

13

SBA to accept and transmit information.

14

we talked about, seems to imply that accepting and transmitting of data will occur.

15

That's why we were asking if you were aware of the PII or any other proper security

16

things in place.

17
18

But the rest of this, including that paragraph

But it is your understanding that none of that should have to occur because it's
just a URL?

19

Mr. Levy.

That's not what he said.

20

Mr. Plews.

No.

What I was advised was that the URL redirects to a Michigan

21

State website, and so I surmised from that that there would be -- I couldn't think of a

22

reason, personally, why the agency would then collect PII.

23
24
25

I can't speak to why additional information is in the MOU.
know.
BY MS. HOLMES:

I'm afraid I just don't


146

1

Q

2

sense to me either.

Okay.

I actually agree with that.

It doesn't make a whole lot of logical

3

But, before we close out this hour, I just want to note for the record, if counsels

4

could please keep their comments to objections that are recognized by the committee,

5

that would be greatly appreciated.

6

We can go off the record.

7

[Recess.]

8

Ms. Holmes.

9

Mr. Levy.

10

Ms. Holmes.

11

We can go back on the record.

How much longer do you have?
I anticipate another hour.

But, of course, we have the discretion

for it to go longer than that if we need to.

12

BY MS. HOLMES:

13

Q

Going back to page 3 of the memorandum of understanding -- or

14

memorandum of agreement, sorry, exhibit No. 4, the last full paragraph on the page says,

15

"MDOS shall provide the Agency with metrics, including but not limited to a periodic total

16

of persons who were driven to the MDOS online voter registration site and completed the

17

form via the unique URL."

18
19

Are you aware of the transmission of that information back to the SBA prior to me
reading it to you just now?

20

A

21

It's probably worth me noting here, the agency has an Office of the Chief

22

Information Officer and we have a number of technology professionals who are more

23

expert than I am in these things and, like with the security topics we were covering

24

earlier, would be the ones who'd be responsible for tracking a sort of technology-based

25

topic.

I'm not aware of that.


147

1

Q

Okay.

2

A

They don't all report to me.

3

Do they report to you?
The Chief Information Officer reports to the

Acting Chief Operating Officer, who reports to me.

4

Q

5

On page 4, Roman numeral X, it's entitled "Prohibited Agency Conduct."

6

Okay.

Thank you for that clarification.

alluded to this earlier.

You

And it lists the prohibitions for agency staff under this MOU.

7

Are there policies that you are aware of that prohibit staff from seeking to

8

influence an applicant's political preference or displaying any political preference or party

9

allegiance?

10
11
12
13

We can start with (a), so "seeking to influence applicant's political preference."
Are you aware of any existing policy at the SBA that prevents that?
A

Well, my understanding is this document is an agreement between the SBA

and the State of Michigan, so this prevents that.

14

Q

15

Are you aware of any other agency policy -- we'll go to letter (b) -- from "displaying

16
17

Okay.

any political preference or party allegiance"?
A

The Hatch Act covers this topic area broadly.

It has nuanced

18

interpretations, but there are contexts in which, while on official time, on official

19

property, in an official capacity, you would want to stay away from displaying symbols of

20

party allegiance, for instance.

21
22

Q

Okay.

So the Hatch Act.

Is there any SBA internal policy that you're

aware of that prevents that or prohibits that?

23

A

24

Mr. Levy.

25

Ms. Holmes.

Beyond -Asked and answered.
He was going to answer.


148

1

BY MS. HOLMES:

2

Q

Beyond?

3

A

I was going to ask, beyond this document?

4

Q

Yes.

5

A

Both of those things that I've mentioned, this document and the Hatch Act,

6

are standards that the SBA must adhere to.

7

agency documents beyond those two things, there may be.

8

may have implementing agency ethics materials that might cover this.

9

to mind at this time; doesn't mean they don't exist.

10

seem to cover this topic.

Whether there are also additional internal
You know, for instance, we
Nothing's coming

But this and the Hatch Act both

11

Q

12

Does the SBA have penalties for employees who violate the Hatch Act, as far as

13

you know?

14

A

15

penalties.

16

Q

17
18
19
20
21

Okay.

My understanding is, the Hatch Act itself maintains a number of potential

Outside of the Hatch Act, are there any internal SBA policies about penalties

for SBA employees violating the Hatch Act, or being accused of violating the Hatch Act?
A

There may be.

answer that.
Q

As far as you know, is this the only memorandum of agreement or

understanding between the SBA and Michigan?

22

Mr. Levy.

23

Ms. Holmes.

24

Mr. Plews.

25

Our Office of General Counsel would be best positioned to

of Michigan.

About anything?
Yeah.
I'm not aware of another memorandum of agreement with the State

There may be one.


149

1

BY MS. HOLMES:

2

Q

Have you ever heard of Rock the Vote?

3

A

I have.

4

Q

Have you worked with them at all?

5

A

Not to my recollection, no.

6

Q

In your SBA capacity or otherwise?

7

A

In no capacity can I recall working with Rock the Vote.

8

Q

Are you familiar with their mission or what they do?

9

A

My familiarity with Rock the Vote is a bit dated.

If I recall correctly, they

10

used to partner with MTV in some way, and one of their goals at the time was to

11

encourage young people to vote.

12

Q

We talked earlier about Jessica Reeves.

13

A

I apologize.

14

Q

Yeah.

15

A

Vaguely.

16

Q

Okay.

17

A

Jessica Reeves is our Director of Public Engagement.

18

Q

The Rock the Vote website currently indicates that she is a board member of

19

Rock the Vote.

20

A

I was recently made aware of that.

21

Q

"Recently," as in --

22

A

Last couple of weeks.

23

Q

Last couple of weeks.

24

A

Jessica made me aware.

25

Q

She just walked up to you and said, hey, I'm on the board?

Do you remember that?

It's been a bit of a long day.

Can you tell me who Jessica Reeves is?

Were you aware of that?

Why were you made aware of that?
I'm not sure exactly why.


150

1

A

She asked to speak to me and notified me of this.

2

Q

Okay.

3

A

She told me she was the organization's treasurer.

4

To the best of your recollection, what else did she tell you?

in her personal time.

She told me she does it

I can't recall what else she told me.

5

Q

Was it an in-person meeting or on the phone?

6

A

It was in person.

7

Q

In person.

8

Are you aware of any Federal laws that would prohibit a Federal employee from

9

also being on a third-party board?

10

Mr. Levy.

11

Ms. Holmes.

12

Mr. Plews.

Objection.

Calls for a legal conclusion.

I'm just asking if he's aware of any laws.
I'm not aware of any laws that would universally prohibit that.

13

It -- yeah.

14

from serving on a third-party organization's board.

15

I'm not aware of any laws that would universally prohibit a Federal employee

BY MS. HOLMES:

16

Q

Are you aware of any SBA policies that would prevent that?

17

A

Similarly, not that would universally or uniformly prohibit it.

18

Q

Are there case-by-case determinations made if people want to serve on

19

third-party boards?

20

A

I am not sure of the exact procedures.

I have not had to go through it

21

myself.

22

agency employees on whether any ethics requirements would prevent such an activity.

But my understanding is that our agency's Office of General Counsel can advise

23

Q

So are you trained on that in your ethics training?

24

A

I believe we're trained on that, but, again, I haven't had to go through that

25

myself.


151

1

Q

2

The SBA, in their production to the committee, sent us a couple of slides, or a slide

3

Okay.

deck, we'll introduce as majority exhibit 18.

4

[Plews Majority Exhibit No. 18

5

was marked for identification.]

6
7

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

This is a slide deck presented to the committee by the SBA entitled "EO

8

14019 and Voter Registration Agency Designation."

9

Have you seen these slides before?

10

A

Not to my recollection, no.

11

Q

Okay.

12

I want to just look at the timeline for a minute.

And I know you said you cannot

13

recall when you first learned about the agreement and/or discussions with the State of

14

Michigan.

15

"Ongoing 2024:

The last point on the first page, Bates number "SBA Response_2," says,
Discussions with other states about designation requirements."

16

As far as you know, are discussions with other States occurring?

17

Mr. Levy.

18
19
20
21

Objection.

Asked and answered.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

As far as you know, outside of the two States that you have already stated,

are there other States interested in contracting with the SBA?
Mr. Levy.

22

Objection.

Asked and answered.

BY MS. HOLMES:

23

Q

Will the witness please answer?

24

A

I don't know.

25

Q

Is this an ongoing 2024 priority for the Administrator, as far as you know?


152

1

A

Is what an ongoing 2024 priority?

2

Q

Sorry.

3

A

I personally wouldn't characterize it as a priority.

The other designations in other States.
I use the word "priority"

4

to refer to things that are -- again, consume a lot of the Administrator's time or are

5

otherwise hard to execute.

6

priority.

7

As I mentioned before, I'm not sure if conversations with other States are

8

currently active.

9

Q

10
11
12

I don't know if the Administrator would characterize it as a

I do know that they were active in the past.

Have you talked to the Administrator about other States and voter

registration, as far as you can recall?
A

I recall the topic of voter registration and the EO and the MOU coming up in

Legislative Affairs briefings.

I can't recall if other States came up.

13

Q

Okay.

14

A

It's possible.

15

Q

In any of your one-on-ones with the Administrator, have you talked about

16

other States that the SBA could engage in MOUs with?

17

A

I don't recall doing so in one-on-ones with the Administrator, no.

18

Q

Okay.

19

Can you recall any conversations about the SBA and third parties on voter

20

registration?

21

A

Just in general, or with the Administrator, or --

22

Q

In general.

23

A

Just in general?

24

Q

-- conversations.

25

A

I recall being advised that there may have been an agency meeting with the

Any --


153

1

ACLU at some point.

I can't recall who told me that.

2

Q

Were you at the meeting?

3

A

No.

4

Q

Do you remember about when you found out about it?

5

A

I don't precisely.

6

Q

Okay.

7

voter registration?

8

A

Not as far as I'm aware, no.

9

Q

As far as you're aware, has Jennifer Kim met with the ACLU on voter

As far as you are aware, has the Administrator met with the ACLU on

10

registration?

11

A

I'm not sure.

12

Q

Okay.

Would that normally be something Ms. Kim would share with you in

13

her biweekly meetings?

14

Mr. Levy.

15

Ms. Holmes.

16

Mr. Levy.

17
18

doesn't share.

20

Objection.
What's the objection?

It's hard to know what she would normally share in her own mind or
If she doesn't share it --

Ms. Holmes.

19

Sometime in the last few months.

Sure.

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Yeah, I don't want to know what's in her mind.

I want to know, like, a

21

normal course of business, what would she typically share with you during your

22

meetings?

23

A

24

check-ins.

25

Q

I don't recall Jen ever sharing any external meetings she's done in our
It wouldn't be a typical topic.
What are typical topics?


154

1
2

A
one.

Management challenges within the Office of Field Operations are a common

My understanding of how the Administrator wants her to prioritize her time.

3

Q

Sorry.

4

A

The Administrator wants Jen to prioritize her time.

5

Q

Okay.

6

One more time.

Your understanding of how --

Did voter registration ever come up as something that the

Administrator wanted her to spend her time on?

7

A

No, not that I can recall [inaudible].

8

Q

That you recall -- what?

9

A

No, not in our -- I cannot recall that topic coming up in our one-on-ones, my

10

one-on-ones with Jen.

11

Q

Okay.

13

A

No, not that I can recall.

14

Q

Okay.

15

Did the Administrator communicate priorities for each office head to you?

16

A

12

17
18
19

Did it ever come up with the Administrator talking to you about Ms.

Kim?

The Administrator has in the past communicated priorities for many office

heads to me; I am not sure every office head.
Q

Some of our offices are quite small.

So, in your discussions with Ms. Kim about your interpretation of her time

being spent, what kinds of things would you talk about?

20

A

Restructurings of the Office of Field Operations, how it should be organized.

21

Q

Okay.

22

A

I mentioned this before, but SBA's 70th anniversary.

23

Q

Right.

24

A

Jen has occasionally given me thoughts on ways I could better structure

25

other meetings.


155

1

But, sorry, you asked about directions from the Administrator.

2

Q

Uh-huh.

3

A

I can't recall recent ones.

I'm sorry, I'm having a -- I can't recall other ones,

4

but that may be more a function of what the topics of our most recent meetings have

5

tended to be about.

6

Q

Okay.

7

A

At the moment, biweekly is the set schedule.

8

Q

Sure.

9

So, from the conversation we've had over the last 2 minutes, I suppose, the things

You said you meet with her biweekly?

10

you seem to talk to Ms. Kim most about are the restructuring of the office, the

11

management challenges she faces, and then her advice to you on how to perhaps better

12

run or differently run meetings.

13

A

I would say our most recent check-ins have focused on management

14

challenges within the office.

15

about her advice to me on how other meetings should be run, but that has come up in

16

the past as a thing I remembered.

17

management challenges in the office.

I wouldn't say it's fair to say we spent a lot of time talking

Most recently, the focus has been more on

18

Q

19

Is the OFO going to be restructured?

20

A

Okay.

No.

Well, let me make sure I give an accurate answer.

21

there're any plans for a restructure that I'm aware of.

22

functions in the office.

We have centralized some SES

There was a past conversation.

23

Q

Centralized -- what's "SES"?

24

A

Senior Executive Service.

25

I don't believe

The Office of Field Operations has a number of

those, and two of them formally managed district offices.

Now they work out of the


156

1

headquarters structure.

2

Q

Okay.

3

A

I don't recall the full set of motivations.

What precipitated that change, if you can recall?
One would be, to have two

4

members of the Senior Executive Service distributed in that former way, where they are

5

just in two cities, isn't the most efficient way of utilizing that level of talent.

6

Q

Okay.

7

A

I don't.

8

Q

But you talked with Jennifer Kim about it, so presumably in the time that

9

you've been Chief?

10

A

I think that's fair.

11

Q

Okay.

12

You mentioned the ACLU was the only third party you can remember right now.

13
14

Do you remember when that happened?

What about D-e-m-o-s, Demos?
Mr. Levy.

15

What's the question?

BY MS. HOLMES:

16

Q

17

Mr. Levy.

18

Ms. Holmes.

19

Mr. Plews.

20

Sorry.

Do you recall working with them at all?
About anything?
Uh-huh.
Actually, no, I'm not aware of -- I don't recall working with

Demos -- I'm not even sure that's how it's pronounced -- D-e-m-o-s at all.

21

BY MS. HOLMES:

22

Q

Okay.

23

A

No, I'm not.

24

Q

Okay.

25

Can you recall any other third-party voting-rights organizations that the

Are you aware of meetings between them and the Administrator?


157

1

Administrator has met with outside of the ACLU?

I know they do more than that, but --

2

A

I don't know that it was the Administrator who met with the ACLU.

3

Q

Oh, okay.

4

A

And I don't think it was.

5

Q

Okay.

6

A

Other organizations?

7

I believe it was Jen.

No, I don't recall the Administrator meeting with any

voting-rights organizations.

8

Q

9

When we were talking with Ms. Kim in the SBA briefing, she mentioned that they

Okay.

10

prioritized Michigan because it had the infrastructure, essentially, to support the MOU

11

and registering voters online; they had one of the best in the country.

12

Did she ever talk to you about that?

13

A

Not that I can recall.

14

Q

Okay.

15

Ms. Holmes.

16

[Discussion off the record.]

17

Ms. Holmes.

18

We can go off the record for a minute.

We can go back on the record.

BY MS. HOLMES:

19

Q

Are you aware of the "small-business boom" catchphrase?

20

A

Yes, I'm aware of that catchphrase.

21

Q

What do you understand it to mean?

22

A

I understand it to refer to the surge in applications for EINs.

23

Q

And EINs are?

24

A

Employee identification -- employee or employer identification number.

25

Sorry.

Sorry.

I've only ever really used the acronym in practice.

But it's a proxy for


158

1
2
3
4

someone's propensity to start a business.
Q

Okay.

Has the Administrator prioritized new EINs or new businesses

coming into existence?
A

I think that that is generally a priority for the SBA.

I think the agency

5

generally would see it as a good thing.

6

the Administrator where she told me that that was a specific priority for her, but it's

7

almost such a generally accepted positive outcome that perhaps it could almost be seen

8

as an understood goal.

9

Q

I can't recall having a specific conversation with

Did she similarly talk about keeping small businesses alive throughout

10

economic turmoil as a priority or something she thought about or thought was a given,

11

however you want to characterize it?

12

A

That, I would say, we've talked about more.

13

Q

Okay.

14

A

As I mentioned, a large -- the best way to phrase it might be, a large

15

percentage of our time, mine and hers, was dedicated to implementing the pandemic

16

relief programs that were designed to do that.

17

Q

18

Does the SBA use the slogan "small-business boom"?

19

A

20

Okay.

I'm not 100-percent certain that we do.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn

that we do.

21

Q

But you guys talk about it generally?

22

A

Yes.

23

Q

-- so it's been talked about around the office?

24

A

I have certainly heard the phrase more than once.

25

Q

Okay.

Like, you knew what it was --


159

1

You said you spent a lot of time on keeping businesses open since we are a few

2

years past the pandemic.

3

there anything else that you guys -- "you guys" being the SBA -- have focused on to keep

4

businesses afloat?

5

A

I know that's pandemic-related things, like you said, but was

Well, SBA's permanent programs also help businesses stay in operation.

6

So, when I've been talking about our pandemic relief programs, I've been talking about

7

temporary programs that were designed to respond to this pandemic and its economic

8

effects, but the agency's longstanding programs are also designed to help businesses

9

start, grow, prosper, thrive, and that would include surviving.

10

Q

So is that something -- that's, like, a metric you guys are tracking, the

11

survival -- well, like, the new EINs, you said that's gone up.

12

that are closing and/or the ones that are barely staying afloat, is that something you

13

guys track too?

14

A

That's wonderful.

The ones

The agency doesn't actually maintain the statistical databases that provide

15

those stats.

16

about business --

17

Q

Yeah.

18

A

-- starts and deaths.

19

Q

Okay.

20

A

We certainly keep our eyes on them.

21

Q

I think Mr. Robinson told us that it's data that he provides in her briefing

22
23

book.

Is that your understanding as well?
Mr. Levy.

24
25

Those are largely maintained by Department of Commerce, if you're talking

Of what Mr. Robinson told you, or that --

BY MS. HOLMES:
Q

Of the briefing book.


160

1

A

I can't recall if I've seen them in there firsthand --

2

Q

Okay.

3

A

-- but that is a logical data point to track.

4

Q

Okay.

5

Ms. Holmes.

As we close out this hour, I want to thank you for being here today.

6

We appreciate you being here voluntarily, as well as all the attorneys.

7

it's been a very long day.

And we recognize

We appreciate you for sticking it out with us.

8

We can go ahead and go off the record.

9

[Discussion off the record.]

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Ms. Holmes.

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Mr. Levy.

12

Counsel for the majority and minority, thank you.

13

Ms. Holmes, thank you for letting me know that Mr. Plews has been cooperative

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15
16

today.

We can go back on the record for your one thing.

Great.

I appreciate that.
I wanted to enter into the record an email exchange that you and I had as exhibit

19, just to put it on the record.

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Ms. Holmes.

18

Mr. Levy.

19

Ms. Holmes.

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Mr. Levy.

Well, make it A.

Sure.
I'm sorry, but, yeah, so we can distinguish.

That's okay.

I'll write an "A" on that.

21

[Plews Exhibit A

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was marked for identification.]

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Mr. Levy.

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Ms. Holmes.

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Mr. Levy.

For you.
Do you have one for the clerk too?

Sure.


161

1

The Reporter.

2

Mr. Levy.

3

For the minority.

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Ms. Beca-Barragan.

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Mr. Levy.

6

This is an email dated May 23, 2024, at 11:22 a.m.

7
8

Lauren Holmes.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

For government counsel.
It's from me, Josh Levy, to

The subject is "Mr. Plews."

The email says, "Hi, Lauren.

Thanks for the call and agreeing that the Committee

9

will not be penalizing or criticizing Mr. Plews for moving the date of the deposition (or

10

transcribed interview, if it turns into that) to the 11th, and that you will convey to the

11

Chair and the Committee that Mr. Plews is cooperating with the Committee, and that he

12

should not be criticized for the SBA's response to the Committee's inquiry.

13

confirm.

Thank you.

Please

Josh."

14

Next email, May 23rd, 2024, at 3:43 p.m., from Lauren Holmes to me, Josh Levy.

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"Hi, Josh.

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Ms. Holmes.

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We can go off the record.

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[Whereupon, at 3:53 p.m., the interview was concluded.]

Thank you for the call!

Yes we agree to the below.

Good?

Best, Lauren."


162

1

Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee

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3
4
5

I have read the foregoing ____ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the
answers made by me to the questions therein recorded.

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7
8
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10

_____________________________
Witness Name

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15

_____________________________
Date

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