Court filing
Detention Hearing Transcript (Excerpts) — United States v. Gladys Harun
Summary
Transcript of a detention hearing for Gladys Harun before the Honorable Brian K. Epps in the Southern District of Georgia, Dublin Division, Case Number 1:22-MJ-00051. Before she testifies, the Court tells her she has an absolute right to remain silent and that what she says can be used against her by the Government. On direct examination by Mr. Howell, Harun testifies that she lives in Byron, Georgia, bought a home there in 2019, and takes care of her six children. She also testifies that she has a total of 55 employees and describes being arrested on Tybee Island. The transcript ends with the Court's ruling, a short recess, and the court reporter's certificate dated July 19, 2022.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
Cite this document
“Detention Hearing Transcript (Excerpts) — United States v. Gladys Harun.”
Original at ecf.gasd.uscourts.gov. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/court-filings/us-v-gladys-harun/2022-08-03-transcript-dkt-25/
, SHA-256 dd41d98b57efb45d5a4850935de0f56a9d27a6fae5072832a28de0d404e521de.Full text
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1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
2 DUBLIN DIVISION
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4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, :
:
5 v. :
: CASE NUMBER 1:22-MJ-00051
6 GLADYS HARUN, :
:
7 Defendant. :
_____________________________
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14 DETENTION HEARING - EXCERPTS
(Testimony of Gladys Harun and Court's Ruling)
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BEFORE THE HONORABLE BRIAN K. EPPS
16 United States Courthouse
100 North Franklin Street
17 Dublin, Georgia
July 8, 2022
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23 TRANSCRIBED BY: Victoria L. Root, CCR
United States Court Reporter
24 Post Office Box 312
Meldrim, Georgia 31318
25 (912) 650-4066
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S
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3 FOR THE GOVERNMENT:
4 CHRISTOPHER HOWARD, Esquire
Assistant United States Attorney
5 22 Barnard Street, Suite 300
Savannah, Georgia 31401
6 (912) 652-4422
christopher.howard@usdoj.gov
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8 FOR THE DEFENDANT:
9 JIMMY THOMAS HOWELL, Esquire
Howell Law, LLC
10 18 Simmons Center
Statesboro, Georgia 30458
11 (912) 416-7111
thomas@attorneystatesboro.com
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1 I N D E X
2 Page
3 WITNESSES CALLED BY THE DEFENDANT
4 1. GLADYS HARUN
Direct Examination by Mr. Howell. . . . . . . . 6
5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Howard . . . . . . . . 14
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COURT'S RULING . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
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8 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The testimony of Gladys Harun commenced at 11:27 a.m.)
3 THE COURT: Mr. Howell.
4 MR. HOWELL: I'd like to call Ms. Harun,
5 Your Honor --
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. HOWELL: -- to the stand.
8 (The witness, Gladys Harun, was sworn.)
9 COURT CLERK: You may be seated.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Howell, well, I'll --
11 Oh, go ahead.
12 COURT CLERK: Would you please state your full name
13 for the record.
14 THE WITNESS: Gladys Harun.
15 COURT CLERK: Thank you.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Howell, before you begin, I informed
17 her of her right to remain silent at the initial appearance.
18 Have you talked with her about this important right
19 as well and explained to her the potential consequences of her
20 opening herself up to testify at this hearing in terms of the
21 cross-examination that may occur?
22 MR. HOWELL: No, Your Honor, not specifically. We
23 discussed at the proffer about any evidence that she were to
24 offer at the proffer. She was well aware of her right not to
25 proceed, so I was going to actually ask her some questions on
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1 the record on that issue to see if she's willing to testify
2 concerning my questions and possible cross-examination.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Harun, I want to talk to you
4 about that before he does.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
6 THE COURT: At your initial appearance, I explained
7 that you have the right to remain silent. And that right to
8 remain silent is embedded in our constitution. It's absolute,
9 and you have no obligation to testify today.
10 If you do decide to testify, though, all of what
11 you're saying here is being recorded and can be used against
12 you by the Government in this case. And in particular, today,
13 you're opening yourself up to cross-examination by Mr. Howard
14 about the topics that you testify about here today.
15 Do you understand that?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: And it will, I'm sure, be a very full,
18 thorough, and sifting cross-examination by the Government, and
19 I'm going to allow him a lot of latitude to go into any topic
20 that you talk about while you're on direct examination with
21 your attorney.
22 Do you understand that?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
24 THE COURT: And despite all those potential
25 consequences and despite this absolute right that you have, do
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1 you still want to testify?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed, Mr. Howell.
4 MR. HOWELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
5 GLADYS HARUN,
6 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. HOWELL:
9 Q. Please state your name for the record.
10 A. Gladys Harun.
11 Q. Thank you. And where do you reside?
12 A. I stay in Byron, Georgia.
13 Q. What's your address?
14 A. 182 Amelia Drive, Byron, Georgia 31008.
15 Q. Thank you. Are you married?
16 A. I'm separated.
17 Q. Separated?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Has a divorce been filed in Georgia?
20 A. Yes, it has.
21 Q. Okay. Have you appeared in the case?
22 A. No. I'm waiting to appear in court.
23 Q. Are you scheduled to appear in that case?
24 A. Not yet.
25 Q. Okay. How many children do you have?
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1 A. I have six.
2 Q. Where do they reside?
3 A. They live in Byron with me.
4 Q. Okay. Could you give their names and ages for the Court.
5 A. The first one is called Emmanuel Gathinji. He is 14 years
6 old. And the second one is Ann Wangui. She's 12 years old.
7 The third one is Sharon Gathinji. She's 9 years old. The
8 fourth one is Diana Harun. She is 5 years old. The other
9 one is Mark Gathinji. He is 4. And the last one is
10 Jacob Gathinji. He is 2.
11 Q. Okay. And who takes care of your children?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Do you do that on a full-time basis --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- or do you have any help?
16 A. I don't have any help. I just take care of them every
17 day.
18 Q. Does your husband have any involvement with your children?
19 A. He barely comes. He doesn't support us financially.
20 And he moved out. He lives in a motel. He barely comes home,
21 maybe once a month or twice a month, (indiscernible) go back.
22 Q. Does he watch your children overnight on any frequent
23 basis?
24 A. No, he doesn't.
25 Q. Okay. Who has your kids right now?
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1 A. They are with my friends. My friends are taking turns to
2 come in my house and watch them. I have, like, four Kenyan
3 friends. They are taking turns coming to take care of them.
4 Q. Are you having a lot of contact with your children right
5 now while you're incarcerated?
6 A. No. No, sir.
7 Q. Okay. Quick question about Government's Exhibit 10.
8 Is this your passport, Ms. Harun?
9 A. That's me, yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you.
11 Do your children have passports?
12 A. Some of them do. Some of them are expired.
13 Q. Okay. There's a question about your ability to appear as
14 called upon in this court.
15 If you were scheduled for a court appearance, would you be
16 willing to appear in the case?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I will come.
20 Q. You were asked earlier to meet with the prosecution in
21 this particular case; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you voluntarily do that?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Did you know before you met with them that you had no
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1 obligation to meet with them whatsoever?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And you chose to do that anyway?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Okay. If the Court were to ask you to, say, surrender
6 your passport pending this particular case, would you be
7 willing to do that so that you could go home and prepare your
8 defense?
9 A. Yes, sir. I'll do that.
10 Q. Have you chosen to retain counsel to defend yourself in
11 this action?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Do you understand the nature of the charges before
14 the Court today?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Okay. Were there any narcotics offenses, by any chance,
17 raised in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. No?
20 Tell us a little bit about your community involvement.
21 Do you go to church?
22 A. Yes. I go to Assemblies of God in Byron, Georgia.
23 Q. Okay. And I asked you about your address.
24 Do you own your home there?
25 A. Yes, I do. I bought a home there in 2019. I live in my
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1 own house.
2 Q. Okay. And prior to living there, did you live in Eastman,
3 Georgia, and Marietta, Georgia, before you moved from Kenya?
4 A. Yes. I've been here 17 years in Georgia.
5 Q. And when were you naturalized?
6 A. In Atlanta.
7 Q. Okay. Was that approximately December 11th, 2011?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Okay. Do you do any community service work in the state
10 of Georgia?
11 A. Yes, I do. I participate in (indiscernible) activities in
12 Byron. I also, in my -- in my business, Jackson Hewitt, I file
13 free taxes for people. During the COVID, I was able to help
14 approximately 700 people and 300 seniors who did not afford
15 any money. So that is the charitable work I do in Georgia.
16 For people who were sick with COVID and could not afford any
17 fees, we filed their taxes for free. So every year, I do that
18 to help people --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. -- yes.
21 Q. Are you -- do you have a mortgage on your home?
22 A. Yes. I have a big mortgage (indiscernible).
23 Q. Are you current on the mortgage?
24 A. Yes, I'm current.
25 Q. So you're not in foreclosure or in forfeiture?
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1 A. No. I'm good.
2 Q. Okay. In your respective business, do you have any
3 employees of any kind?
4 A. I have a total of 55. It fluctuates, but I have a total
5 of 55 every year, and I have some volunteers.
6 Q. Do your employees have family?
7 A. No, I don't have family.
8 Q. Do your employees have family?
9 A. Oh, they do have family, yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. Do they rely on the paychecks you provide in order
11 to provide for their families?
12 A. Yes, Your Honor. They work full-time for me. I'm
13 actually supposed to pay them today. So this really was their
14 payday, but they don't know I'm here.
15 Q. How are those families going to get paid if you're
16 incarcerated today?
17 A. I don't know. I need to go home to pay them because I
18 hadn't -- I wasn't aware I was going arrested -- get arrested,
19 so I hadn't made any arrangements.
20 Q. Let's talk about that.
21 Tell me a little bit about where you were arrested.
22 A. I went to Savannah, Tybee Island on Monday. I went with
23 my children. I had gone to take them to watch fireworks in the
24 night. So we watched fireworks Monday night, 4th of July. It
25 was good.
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1 And then Tuesday morning, my kids told me to go and swim
2 with them. We went to the beach again. We spent a whole day
3 there. And then we came back to the hotel. I was cleaning my
4 kids in the car. I was still in my swimsuit, and so -- you
5 know, I was changing diapers, wiping their noses, and changing
6 their clothes so we can head home.
7 And that is when Brian approached me and told me, "Do you
8 remember me?"
9 I said, "Yeah, I remember you, Mr. Brian." I said, "What
10 are you doing here?" You know, I was just friendly.
11 And he told me, "We have arrest for you -- we have a
12 warrant for your arrest, and we are here to arrest you."
13 And I was begging him, "Let me change clothes because I'm
14 so wet." And they allowed me to change clothes and call
15 friends and everybody.
16 And I told him there was no need of that. I would have
17 surrendered myself if they had told me that they needed me.
18 You know, I've been cooperating with them the whole time.
19 I was to go to Kenya beginning of June, but I didn't go
20 because we had a proffer with them on the 29th of June. So
21 I've been respectful in the process. I've been forthcoming
22 towards them, and I want (indiscernible). That's why I stayed
23 here.
24 Q. Were your children upset when you got arrested in front of
25 them on their vacation?
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1 A. Oh, yes. It is very -- they've been crying ever since
2 that day.
3 Q. Do they have any idea why you were arrested?
4 A. They have no idea.
5 Q. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about that proffer.
6 After the proffer, did we have a conversation concerning
7 travel?
8 A. Yeah. We had a conversation that I will not travel
9 without notifying you. And Mr. Howard had promised me that,
10 you know, he was going to communicate to -- to me through you
11 and tell me what's going to happen. I was under the impression
12 that it was -- we would be negotiating and talking about the
13 whole things back and forth.
14 Q. Did I specifically tell you not to make any plans to go
15 out of the country without talking to me first?
16 A. Yes, you did.
17 Q. Okay. And you stated, before you made -- finalized any
18 plans to go anywhere, you would run it through me, and I would
19 have to, in fact, ask the Government for their permission
20 before you traveled; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Have you complied with that request?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Do you have any travel plans currently to leave the
25 country?
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1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Do you -- can you promise to this court in front of
3 this judge that you will not leave the country pending the
4 resolution of this case?
5 A. No, I will not. I will not leave the country. I promise.
6 Q. Are you willing and able to comply with any stipulations
7 the Court requires in order for your release today on bond?
8 A. Yes, I will comply with everything.
9 MR. HOWELL: Okay. No further questions, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
11 Mr. Howard.
12 MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
13 THE COURT: You may.
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. HOWARD:
16 Q. Ma'am, I've handed you the same exhibits that I provided
17 to Special Agent Jack. We may go through those, but I wanted
18 to make sure that you -- you had them so you could reference
19 them.
20 At the initial appearance, you told the Court that you
21 don't have family in America.
22 But that's not true, is it?
23 A. I don't have immediate family in America.
24 Q. You have six children; correct?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Are those six children in America?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Now, you are a dual citizen with Kenya as well?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Do you have a Kenyan passport?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. Now, with respect to this travel, you're represented by a
8 different attorney in your divorce proceeding; correct?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And did you tell that attorney in your divorce proceeding
11 that you would be out of the country from -- beginning on
12 July 6th?
13 A. We were planning on leaving, but we didn't finalize
14 everything. My husband wanted to go, but we didn't -- we were
15 just talking, and we didn't finalize anything because, you
16 know, I can't travel without letting my attorney know. So it
17 was just -- just talk. It wasn't really finalized or nothing.
18 Q. But my question --
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Did you tell your attorney that you were planning to be
21 out of the country on July 6th?
22 A. I didn't specifically say July 6th. I told him I was
23 going to talk to my attorney and I would specifically tell him
24 the date I was going to leave.
25 Q. Would it surprise you to learn that your attorney in
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1 the divorce proceeding emailed your husband's attorney in the
2 divorce proceeding and said that you would not be able to make
3 a court appearance because you planned to be out of the country
4 from July 6th to August 6th? Would that surprise you?
5 A. Okay. First of all, you had told me, Mr. Howard, that
6 I have some time, almost 2 months, before you -- you really
7 decide what to do with my case. And we had talked with my
8 attorney. And I didn't know you were going to arrest me or
9 do all these things. I wasn't aware of these things.
10 I had -- I knew you had asked me for the permission and
11 everything else and I was to go through my attorney and see if
12 I can go see the school, like, 2 weeks and then come back here
13 so we can go ahead and finalize everything. So I wasn't --
14 I didn't know you were going to arrest me today.
15 And I wasn't fleeing. Every year, we go to Kenya and come
16 back, so it is just part of our lives. We've been going for
17 the past 19 years. We go and come back here. It's not like I
18 was trying to flee or anything. It's just that I didn't know
19 the sequence -- the flow of things.
20 You know, I wasn't aware that I'm going to be here today
21 and the seriousness of the whole thing. I didn't know I was
22 going to have these kind of serious charges or stuff like that.
23 When I came for the proffer, you didn't tell me the seriousness
24 of the issue. And so I wasn't trying to flee or anything.
25 Q. I appreciate that, but that didn't answer my question.
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1 My question is specifically: Would it surprise you to
2 learn that your divorce attorney sent an email to your
3 husband's divorce attorney on June 22nd of this year stating
4 that "Ms. Harun is apparently going to be visiting family out
5 of the country from July 6th through August 6th and will not be
6 here for a hearing on July 29th"?
7 My question specifically is: Would it surprise you to
8 learn that?
9 A. I'm not surprised because we had been talking about going
10 to Kenya. And I had told Mr. Thomas, but we hadn't finalized
11 everything. It was just talk, not finalized.
12 Q. And if somebody were to leave the country, they would need
13 access to a lot of money; right?
14 A. Well, it's a lot of preparation. And during the proffer,
15 you know, I didn't know all this was going to (indiscernible),
16 you know. So I've been respectful to you, Mr. Howard. I was
17 to leave to Kenya June the 1st, but you told me we were going
18 to have a proffer on the 29th, so I had made arrangements
19 then --
20 MR. HOWARD: Your Honor --
21 A. -- but I --
22 MR. HOWARD: -- I'm going to --
23 A. -- postpone everything.
24 MR. HOWARD: -- object as nonresponsive. We're sort
25 of doing this where I have to repeat the questions. So I am
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1 going to object, I think, for everyone's time, as nonresponsive
2 to the question.
3 THE COURT: I'm going to let her finish her
4 explanation, and then, if you could, reask the question.
5 MR. HOWARD: Will do, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Go ahead, Ms. Harun.
7 A. So June 1st, we had planned to go to Kenya, and -- my
8 husband always wanted to go to Kenya.
9 And so I talked to Mr. Thomas, and he said, "No. Don't go
10 until we do the proffer on the 29th."
11 So I postponed everything. But I've been talking and
12 shopping for airlines and everything. And my divorce attorney,
13 I had told him we wanted to leave in June.
14 But later on, I said, "Well, something came up. I'm going
15 to have to postpone everything."
16 So they knew I was, you know, going to leave in June. And
17 then we kept on postponing, postponing because I want to abide
18 with what you want me to do on this case.
19 BY MR. HOWARD:
20 Q. You know, I forgot my question, but I may remember it.
21 And if I do, I'll come back to it.
22 Let's look at some documents. You talked about in your
23 direct the number of employees you have, so let's look at some
24 documents.
25 Looking at -- specifically at Government Exhibit 2, do you
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1 recognize that?
2 A. I'm looking for it. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. So looking at Government Exhibit 2, the first page,
4 it lists a business phone there ending in 3301.
5 That's your number; correct?
6 A. That's my business number.
7 Q. Yes. It lists an email address there of
8 harungladys@yahoo.
9 That's your email address; correct?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. It lists a business of Embrace Africa d/b/a Jackson Hewitt
12 Tax.
13 That's your business; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Gladys C. Harun, owner 100 percent, that's -- that's you,
16 isn't it?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And looking at Page 2 of that exhibit showing that it was
19 submitted April 17th, 2020, you submitted a PPP application;
20 correct?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. And that -- that's -- PPP application that's
23 reflected in Government's Exhibit 2, that was to Wells Fargo
24 that you submitted; right?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. All right. And looking at Government's Exhibit 3 -- I'll
2 give you a minute to turn there.
3 Have you had a chance to see Government's Exhibit 3?
4 A. I'm looking at it.
5 Q. Okay. And do you recognize -- the business phone, the
6 email address, the business name, and the contact, do you
7 recognize that all as your information, your business, and,
8 indeed, yourself as the contact?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. And this corresponds to another PPP application
11 that you submitted to Wells Fargo; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Indeed, you submitted several Wells Fargo
14 PPP applications; right?
15 A. I just did one. I don't remember doing several.
16 Q. The second one -- were you ever denied a PPP application
17 from Wells Fargo?
18 A. They denied my second one because 2019, I had very few
19 employees. But by the grace of God, in 2020 and 2021, my
20 business has grown, so I had many employees. And they felt
21 like I have many employees than I had said in 2019, but that's
22 normal for business.
23 Q. Yeah. So the gross pay -- so the year 2021, that's when
24 your business grew?
25 A. Even 2020. I had more employees in 2020.
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1 Q. 2020. And then it grew in 2021 as well; right?
2 A. Yes, I believe so.
3 Q. And just to be clear, I had asked you if you submitted
4 multiple PPP applications to Wells Fargo. You said you only
5 remembered one, but then you said, "They denied my second one."
6 So I want to be absolutely clear.
7 Did you submit just one PPP application to Wells Fargo, or
8 did you submit more than one?
9 THE COURT: I'm going to stop this there. I think --
10 I mean, I -- she's here to testify with respect to the Bail
11 Reform Act and the factors that apply to determine whether she
12 should be released or not.
13 She did touch on the number of employees during her
14 initial testimony, but I don't want us to stray at all from the
15 topics that she addressed there. I want to stay very -- stick
16 very closely to them and only, really, as it relates to the
17 bond determination.
18 I feel like we're getting probably away from the
19 bond, the purpose of the hearing --
20 MR. HOWARD: Sure.
21 THE COURT: -- and more to the merits of the case.
22 And I'm uncomfortable having a defendant on the stand anyway so
23 early in the case. For those reasons, if we could just stick
24 very narrowly to the scope of her direct examination, I think
25 we --
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1 MR. HOWARD: Understood, Your Honor.
2 BY MR. HOWARD:
3 Q. And specifically, Ms. Harun, going to Exhibit 10, the
4 passport photo, that's your passport photo; correct?
5 A. Hold on. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Yeah.
7 A. That's me.
8 Q. Not somebody else?
9 A. (No response.)
10 Q. Not somebody else? It's you?
11 A. No. That's me, yes.
12 Q. Now, the -- you have heard some testimony and some
13 statements regarding Lotsie Gordon.
14 Was that her name?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And you saw the email in Government's Exhibit 11?
17 A. I see it.
18 Q. Okay. And you recognize that as having sent that email;
19 correct?
20 THE COURT: Well, what does that have to do with her
21 direct examination?
22 MR. HOWARD: Sure, Your Honor. So she's going into
23 what she testified was -- and has testified thus far about her
24 company's success, her charitable endeavors, the fact that she
25 did free tax returns for people, all of these benefits that she
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1 is providing to others, the business, the number of employees
2 of the business, the veracity of the information that she's
3 provided, how she's provided truthful information to the
4 Government.
5 THE COURT: I'll stop you there. I mean, she didn't
6 talk about Lotsie Gordon and this email, and this hits on
7 exactly what I warned you about a while ago. So let's stick
8 very closely to what she testified about and testing the
9 veracity of that and not -- let's not stray off into the merits
10 of the case.
11 MR. HOWARD: Understood, Your Honor. There is one
12 further -- well, two further topics that I do want to touch
13 upon, and those were -- go towards witness tampering, which is
14 directly relevant to the bail determination, and those are the
15 text messages in Exhibit 12. Before asking her those
16 questions, if that's something that the Court deems to be out
17 of bounds, then so be it.
18 THE COURT: I believe it is, yeah, because she
19 didn't -- you proffered that, but she's not testified about it.
20 MR. HOWARD: Understood, Your Honor.
21 BY MR. HOWARD:
22 Q. Now, I did ask before, ma'am -- and it was the question
23 that I thought that I forgot. But that -- the question that I
24 asked -- and you have testified earlier about your travel, your
25 plans, your intent to flee.
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1 The question I had asked -- that if you're going to fly
2 out of the country, you need -- you need a lot of money to do
3 that, particularly to Africa where flights are quite expensive;
4 correct?
5 A. Yeah. This is very expensive.
6 Q. And you were interviewed by special agents back in May of
7 this year; correct?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And do -- those two special agents that sit in this
10 courtroom today, they came, and they interviewed you; right?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. And then the same day that they interviewed you, you went
13 to the bank, and you withdrew $100,000 in cash from your bank
14 account; correct?
15 A. Well, I have a school in Kenya. I send them money and
16 everything. I was going to wire them some money for the
17 feeding program, and I did that in another bank. Sometimes I
18 do that.
19 Like, wiring money in Africa takes some time. Sometimes
20 I go to Wells Fargo. They tell me it's going to take 10 days.
21 And I want the orphans to get the money in 2 days, so I will
22 withdraw cash and then go to SunTrust and then send it to
23 Africa.
24 Q. Just to be clear, after your interview, indeed, the same
25 day that you were interviewed by the agents, you went to -- is
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1 it Truist Bank? Is that your bank?
2 A. I don't remember doing that that same day. I don't
3 remember that.
4 Q. But you do recall that the same day that the agents
5 interviewed you, you went to your bank account, and you
6 withdrew in cash $100,000; is that right?
7 A. I don't think it's the same day.
8 Q. Well, you testified about the need -- that you withdrew
9 that money in order for that money to go to Africa; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And so you withdrew money from your U.S. bank account and
12 withdrew that money in cash to get that money to Africa; is
13 that right?
14 A. No, sir. I said sometimes I do that. And I can provide
15 you with documentation. Sometimes I withdraw cash from Wells
16 Fargo and go to SunTrust and wire transfer that money because
17 sometimes Wells Fargo gives me trouble -- a lot of trouble
18 doing international transfers.
19 Q. You don't recall -- and you said you didn't think it was
20 the same day that the agents interviewed you; is that right?
21 A. No. I normally do that, so it's part of what I do every
22 day. I will withdraw sometimes even 40,000 and then go to
23 another bank and send it to Africa depending on -- if they
24 tell me -- like, if I send today, when is the money going to be
25 available for the school? If they tell me it's going to be
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1 immediately, then I go ahead and do it. If they tell me no,
2 then I go to another bank and do it for quicker service.
3 Q. So are you saying it's a normal part of what you do of --
4 withdrawing $100,000 in cash from your bank account?
5 A. No. I didn't say $100,000. But I said this year was
6 different because we had -- we -- I had, like, a charitable
7 thing I wanted to do in the school. I've been saving this
8 money since -- for a whole year, saving money, raising
9 donations, and everything. So it was money that I had put
10 aside for a certain project in the school. So that's all.
11 Q. And if that's true, there would be a corresponding wire of
12 $100,000 shortly thereafter --
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. -- the withdrawal?
15 A. Yes, sir. I did wire that money.
16 Q. And what bank did you use to wire that money?
17 A. SunTrust.
18 Q. SunTrust?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that -- your recollection is it was just a coincidence
21 and that it happened --
22 A. Yeah, it was a coincidence.
23 Q. Let me finish the question.
24 A. Sorry.
25 Q. It was just a coincidence that you're withdrawing so much
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1 money in cash shortly after the agents interview you; correct?
2 A. I don't remember withdrawing money after -- after Brian
3 left my office. I don't remember doing it that day.
4 Q. And at the end of that interview, the agents notified you
5 from a -- in a letter from the U.S. Attorney's Office that you
6 were a target of a federal grand jury investigation, didn't
7 they?
8 A. Yes, they did.
9 Q. You also talked about your business, which has grown.
10 I guess it grew in 2020, and it grew in 2021; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Looking at Government Exhibit 13, when we talk about that
13 growth of that business . . .
14 A. On this particular one, I had lost a lot of money. I had
15 paid an attorney almost $11,000 to represent a case, and then
16 he flee to Texas. And so I didn't have no money -- my personal
17 money, not my business money, because I'm a business owner.
18 I have money for myself, but I don't -- I didn't have any money
19 for me to do this because an attorney had robbed me of money.
20 And (indiscernible) told (indiscernible) about it. I had paid
21 him $11,000 to represent me in the case, and he flee the state,
22 and so I didn't have no more money at all with me.
23 Q. Ma'am, I haven't asked a question about this document yet.
24 The first question I have as to Government's Exhibit 13 --
25 looking at Page 2, there's a signature.
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1 Is that your signature?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. You filed this document that's reflected in the first two
4 pages of Government's Exhibit 13; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in that document, you wrote, on Page 2, "I cannot be
7 able to pay an attorney." You just described attorneys are
8 expensive. You didn't have the money to do it. But then you
9 say "I am not employed now."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. I'm (indiscernible). I'm not employed.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Yeah, I do. I'm not employed.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You have a business, which you talked about grew in 2020.
17 It grew in 2021. And this was filed in late 2021.
18 But you not only represented to the Court in asking for a
19 free attorney that you didn't have a business but also that you
20 weren't employed; is that right?
21 A. My business is charity. And so when you talk about
22 Embrace Africa, there are so many lives that depend on leaders
23 of charity, so I don't see it really as a business. It's more
24 of a nonprofit. And we have so many activities that sometimes
25 if we go off the budget, we will not be able to feed children
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1 in Kenya.
2 Q. Your business is charity? Your -- is that what
3 (indiscernible)?
4 A. We are nonprofit. We are basically nonprofit.
5 Q. And that's Jackson Hewitt Tax; correct? That's your
6 business?
7 A. Jackson Hewitt supports Embrace Africa. So, basically,
8 the money that we raise there is for nonprofit purposes mostly.
9 Q. You represented to the -- and you were truthful in your
10 representations to the pretrial officer; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Yeah. And you represented to the pretrial officer
13 that you started a business, and your employer name is
14 Jackson Hewitt Tax service; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you own 12 locations as a franchise owner?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when somebody walks into Jackson Hewitt Tax Service,
19 is there a big sign that says "Jackson Hewitt," or is there a
20 sign indicating that this is a charity?
21 A. We have some that say "Embrace Africa" somewhere. I don't
22 know if it is visible.
23 Q. Okay. Do you have some signs indicating that it's
24 Jackson Hewitt?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Okay. Now, you talked about that you -- it's a charity
2 that you're running, but you represented to the pretrial
3 officer that your monthly income -- your monthly income is
4 $66,666.67.
5 Is that what you represented to the probation officer?
6 A. Which probation officer? I'm confused. Which one?
7 Q. The one that sits to your right.
8 THE WITNESS: Did we discuss that? I don't remember
9 discussing that with you.
10 BY MR. HOWARD:
11 Q. Were there discussions about your monthly income?
12 A. I remember him asking me about my business income for the
13 whole year, but I don't remember, really, discussing my own
14 money.
15 Q. Okay. So when he wrote "Monthly Income, $66,666.67," that
16 doesn't accurately reflect your income? Is that what you're
17 saying?
18 A. I don't remember that discussion.
19 Q. Well, I'm not asking if you remember your discussion.
20 I'm asking you specifically: Is your monthly income --
21 you, not your business -- your monthly income for this charity
22 that operates under a tax service name $66,666.67?
23 A. No, it's not.
24 Q. No, that's not accurate. Okay.
25 Well, let's talk about the -- and I don't know if you have
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1 a copy of the pre- -- of the report. I can give you mine so
2 you can look at it.
3 MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, may I approach?
4 THE COURT: You may.
5 BY MR. HOWARD:
6 Q. Ma'am, I'm handing you a copy of the pretrial report.
7 It's my copy. I apologize if there's writing on it.
8 But do you see a little box there that talks about time
9 with employer? It's in the middle of the page a little bit to
10 the right. It talks about time with employer. It mentions
11 6 years and 6 months.
12 Do you see that?
13 A. I don't remember stating this kind of money, but I
14 remember telling him how much I make, like, the whole year.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I don't -- I don't remember this.
17 Q. Okay. Well, is it accurate that you've been employed for
18 6 years and 6 months through that Jackson Hewitt Tax Service
19 charity?
20 A. Are you asking the part of my business income that I get
21 myself?
22 Q. I'm not asking anything about your business income.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. My question --
25 A. Uh-huh.
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1 Q. -- didn't ask anything about income. It was
2 specifically -- I'm looking at a pretrial report -- now you're
3 looking at my copy -- where it says your time with the employer
4 is 6 years and 6 months.
5 What I was trying to figure out -- have you been with
6 Jackson Hewitt --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- Tax Service --
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. -- for 6 years and 6 months?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. That's your employment? That's how you've been employed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Yes. But yet, going back to Government Exhibit 13, in
15 September of 2021, you told a federal judge, declaring that
16 your answers are true and correct with your signature, as
17 you've acknowledged, that "I am not employed now" as you're
18 asking the Court to provide you with an attorney for free of
19 charge.
20 Can you explain that inconsistency between you being
21 employed for 6 years and you saying a couple of months ago that
22 "I'm not employed. Give me a free attorney"?
23 A. First of all, Jackson Hewitt is a seasonal -- is a
24 seasonal business. Even though I've been with them, like,
25 6 years and 6 months, we -- we stay months and times without
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1 employment. I don't remember specifically when I was asking
2 the Court for that. But we don't work year-round. We're only
3 there for 4 months.
4 But I remember the reason why I did that -- I had paid an
5 attorney $11,000, and he let a whole case crumble and went out
6 of state. In my pocket -- my money had fluctuated. I didn't
7 have any money. And I don't remember having any income at that
8 time, and that's why I had asked the Court to help me. I
9 wasn't having an income at that time.
10 MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, I have no further questions
11 for this witness.
12 I don't know if Counsel has any other witnesses. I
13 do have a rebuttal witness given some of the testimony that
14 she's provided today.
15 If I could reclaim the pretrial report and the
16 exhibits . . .
17 THE COURT: Sure.
18 All right. Mr. Howell, any follow-up questioning for
19 this witness?
20 MR. HOWELL: No, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay. All right. You may step down and
22 rejoin Counsel at the table.
23 (The testimony of Gladys Harun concluded at 12:03 p.m.)
24 - - -
25
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1 (The Court's ruling commenced at 12:54 p.m.)
2 THE COURT: All right. After careful consideration
3 of everything that I've heard here today during the hearing and
4 the exhibits submitted as well as the original complaint and
5 affidavit in support, I do find that she should be detained
6 pending trial. I do believe she's a flight risk.
7 And I want to touch on a couple of the things that
8 leads me to this conclusion. I mean, first of all, certainly,
9 she has the strongest ties imaginable to a foreign country
10 in that she was born in Kenya and has family there and visits
11 often. And, you know, far more important to me than that is
12 I just can't find any morsel of support for believing that
13 she's going to follow what I tell her to do and that she'll
14 report honestly to the probation officer her conduct.
15 I look back at that August 2021 filing that she gave
16 to Judge Self in the Middle District of Georgia, and it really
17 stands out to me because, there, she says to him categorically
18 I have no job; I cannot work because I'm disabled; and I have
19 very little money such that I cannot afford to hire an
20 attorney. None of those things were true.
21 And so if she will lie to a district judge in the
22 context of a civil action, then how can I trust what she's
23 telling me here today?
24 And certainly, those statements she made to
25 Judge Self stand very much in contrast to the statements that
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1 she gave to Mr. Wright White (phonetic) the probation officer,
2 in that bail report. And in my conversation with him, it is
3 very clear that she reported income of $800,000 a year and
4 testified on the stand today that her business has been
5 thriving over the last 2 years. And so I can't square that
6 with what she told Judge Self. They're diametrically opposed
7 presentations of the facts.
8 And, certainly, there is strong evidence here, in
9 addition to her strong ties to Kenya, that she had plans to
10 travel. I've never heard, in 9 years on the bench, of someone
11 being interviewed by agents about -- and told that they're a
12 target and, on the same day, withdrawing $100,000 not to
13 transfer to another account but in cash.
14 And so automatically when you hear that, you think,
15 "Boy, might she be wanting to leave to go somewhere?"
16 It could be an American citizen with no ties to a
17 foreign country engaging in that same act, and you'd still
18 raise the question, I think legitimately, "Does this person
19 have plans to flee the country?" because they've met with
20 federal agents who told them, "You're under investigation, and
21 you are a target of the federal government."
22 And on top of that, you not only have the withdrawal
23 in cash of such a large amount of money, but you also have a
24 statement from her attorney that -- she expressed no surprise
25 to hear him saying this -- a statement from her civil attorney
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1 to another attorney that she was unavailable for court
2 proceedings in that case for an entire month of July because
3 she planned to be in Kenya.
4 And at that moment in time, she admitted on the stand
5 that, yes, she was in the general stages of planning such a
6 trip. But certainly no one had reached out to Mr. Howell or,
7 more importantly, to Mr. Howard to talk about plans for such a
8 trip.
9 When you look at the other factors under the Bail
10 Reform Act, I think that they certainly support detention
11 as well. I do think that the weight of the evidence here is
12 strong as we reviewed it this morning through the agent's
13 testimony.
14 And I do think she presents a danger to the
15 community. And when you think about danger, often, people
16 think about stabbings and shootings and things like that. But
17 danger to the community is really the risk that someone's going
18 to commit a crime and -- of any nature, including a financial
19 crime.
20 And the fact that she owns 12 of these franchise tax
21 businesses means that there is significant opportunity there
22 for financial fraud to continue to occur. And so I do
23 believe -- given the fact that I don't think she's credible and
24 the fact that she owns these businesses, when you compare that
25 with the exhibits submitted this morning, I do think that
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1 there's strong evidence that she's a danger to the community
2 as well.
3 Now, I do want to explain to you that while you are
4 being detained based on the reasoning I just gave that this
5 analysis of the case that I'm conducting right now has -- is
6 completely separate from the process of determining whether
7 you're guilty or innocent of the crimes that you've been
8 charged with.
9 I hope you understand that you are presumed innocent
10 of those charges under our Constitution. And that presumption
11 of innocence is firmly in place today. I'm not telling you
12 you're guilty of these things, but I do have to make a decision
13 about what to do with you in this critical period -- I see you
14 raising your hand, but you had a chance to testify today, and,
15 also, your counsel has made arguments on your behalf, so
16 there's -- at this time, we've closed consideration of any new
17 facts that you may want to provide.
18 You're presumed innocent. But the fact of the matter
19 is a grand jury did convene with a prosecutor and not --
20 without the benefit of you being in the room. The grand jury
21 reviewed the evidence that the Prosecution has and made a
22 preliminary determination that you probably committed these
23 crimes, not that you actually did. Well, actually, that's --
24 I'm sorry. Scratch that. We've not had a grand jury
25 proceeding yet.
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1 But I have reviewed the affidavit of the agent, and
2 I've made a finding that you probably committed these offenses.
3 And so we have to -- while you're under suspicion of committing
4 a crime when you've been formally charged, as you have, during
5 this interim period of time between now and the time of your
6 jury trial, we have to decide what to do with each person that
7 is presented.
8 And my determination today that you should be
9 detained pending that trial has nothing to -- no bearing
10 whatsoever on what a jury might do with this case at trial.
11 The Government has a very high burden at your trial. They have
12 to prove by -- beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of
13 12 jurors that you actually committed these offenses.
14 And so we're a long way away from that. And I don't
15 want you to take from what I'm saying today that that's any
16 indication of ultimate guilt or innocence. That's reserved for
17 the jury at the trial of your case down the road.
18 Is there anything further from the Government's
19 perspective we need to address today in this hour -- in this
20 matter, Mr. Howard?
21 MR. HOWARD: Not with respect to detention,
22 Your Honor. I think the outstanding issue of a preliminary
23 hearing -- I don't know if the Court wants to quickly do that
24 today. It would be -- indeed, I think I could, alternatively,
25 either rest on the evidence that's been put forth already,
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1 because there's a lot of overlap between the preliminary
2 hearing and the evidence that this Court heard from the
3 Government with respect to detention, or -- you know, I'll sort
4 of defer to the Court and to Defense Counsel, but I guess one
5 option I wanted to propose is, again, the Government to sort of
6 rest and resubmit the evidence that's been provided so that the
7 Court can consider that with respect to the prelim hearing.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you for reminding me about
9 that.
10 We've heard probably 98 percent, it sounds like, of
11 the evidence that the Government would submit in support of the
12 probable cause hearing. After hearing that evidence --
13 MR. HOWELL: I agree, Your Honor. And I actually
14 talked with Mr. Howard about that, and I thought it would be
15 okay to proceed as he suggested --
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. HOWELL: -- today.
18 THE COURT: Well, that's up to you. You now have a
19 much better picture of what the Government is presenting. And
20 you really have two options -- three options from here.
21 Number one, we can go ahead right now and wrap up
22 that evidence and have you cross-examine the agent. We could
23 postpone that until Monday. Or, based on the evidence that
24 you've heard today, it may be that she wants to waive her right
25 to a preliminary hearing. You may have reached a point where
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1 you feel like there's no good faith argument to the contrary
2 in terms of probable cause.
3 Do you need a minute to talk to your client about
4 that?
5 MR. HOWELL: Just a moment, yes, please.
6 THE COURT: Take the time you need. And y'all need
7 some privacy.
8 Can we take them in -- out of the courtroom into a
9 private room for them to have that conversation?
10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. I'll take her
11 downstairs.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 All right. We'll take a short recess until then.
14 COURT SECURITY OFFICER: All rise.
15 (The Court's ruling concluded at 1:02 p.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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4 I, Victoria L. Root, Certified Court Reporter, in and
5 for the United States District Court for the Southern District
6 of Georgia, do hereby certify that the foregoing transcript
7 of the requested excerpts from the proceedings held in the
8 above-entitled matter were transcribed to the best of my
9 ability from the Court's electronic recording system and
10 that the transcript page format is in conformance with the
11 regulations of the Judicial Conference of the United States.
12 WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL this 19th day of July, 2022.
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20 __________________________________
VICTORIA L. ROOT, CCR B-1691
21 United States Court Reporter
Southern District of Georgia
22 Savannah Division
23
24 Post Office Box 312
Meldrim, Georgia 31318
25 (912) 650-4066
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