Court filing
Detention Hearing Transcript — United States v. Harun
Filed July 19, 2022 in U.S. v. Gladys Harun; one of 11 filings from this case.
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court, Southern District of Georgia, Dublin Division |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2022-07-19 |
U.S. District Court, Southern District of Georgia, Dublin Division · No. 1:22-mj-00051-BKE · Doc. 24 · 2022-07-19 · Docket on CourtListener
Full text
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
DUBLIN DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
:
:
v. :
: CASE NUMBER 1:22-MJ-00051
GLADYS HARUN,
:
:
Defendant. :
_____________________________
DETENTION HEARING - EXCERPTS
(Testimony of Gladys Harun and Court's Ruling)
BEFORE THE HONORABLE BRIAN K. EPPS
United States Courthouse
100 North Franklin Street
Dublin, Georgia
July 8, 2022
TRANSCRIBED BY: Victoria L. Root, CCR
United States Court Reporter
Post Office Box 312
Meldrim, Georgia 31318
(912) 650-4066
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 1 of 41
2
A P P E A R A N C E S
FOR THE GOVERNMENT:
CHRISTOPHER HOWARD, Esquire
Assistant United States Attorney
22 Barnard Street, Suite 300
Savannah, Georgia 31401
(912) 652-4422
christopher.howard@usdoj.gov
FOR THE DEFENDANT:
JIMMY THOMAS HOWELL, Esquire
Howell Law, LLC
18 Simmons Center
Statesboro, Georgia 30458
(912) 416-7111
thomas@attorneystatesboro.com
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 2 of 41
3
I N D E X
Page
WITNESSES CALLED BY THE DEFENDANT
1. GLADYS HARUN
Direct Examination by Mr. Howell. . . . . . . . 6
Cross-Examination by Mr. Howard . . . . . . . . 14
COURT'S RULING . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 3 of 41
4
P R O C E E D I N G S
(The testimony of Gladys Harun commenced at 11:27 a.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Howell.
MR. HOWELL: I'd like to call Ms. Harun,
Your Honor --
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HOWELL: -- to the stand.
(The witness, Gladys Harun, was sworn.)
COURT CLERK: You may be seated.
THE COURT: Mr. Howell, well, I'll --
Oh, go ahead.
COURT CLERK: Would you please state your full name
for the record.
THE WITNESS: Gladys Harun.
COURT CLERK: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Howell, before you begin, I informed
her of her right to remain silent at the initial appearance.
Have you talked with her about this important right
as well and explained to her the potential consequences of her
opening herself up to testify at this hearing in terms of the
cross-examination that may occur?
MR. HOWELL: No, Your Honor, not specifically. We
discussed at the proffer about any evidence that she were to
offer at the proffer. She was well aware of her right not to
proceed, so I was going to actually ask her some questions on
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 4 of 41
5
the record on that issue to see if she's willing to testify
concerning my questions and possible cross-examination.
THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Harun, I want to talk to you
about that before he does.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: At your initial appearance, I explained
that you have the right to remain silent. And that right to
remain silent is embedded in our constitution. It's absolute,
and you have no obligation to testify today.
If you do decide to testify, though, all of what
you're saying here is being recorded and can be used against
you by the Government in this case. And in particular, today,
you're opening yourself up to cross-examination by Mr. Howard
about the topics that you testify about here today.
Do you understand that?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And it will, I'm sure, be a very full,
thorough, and sifting cross-examination by the Government, and
I'm going to allow him a lot of latitude to go into any topic
that you talk about while you're on direct examination with
your attorney.
Do you understand that?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And despite all those potential
consequences and despite this absolute right that you have, do
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 5 of 41
6
you still want to testify?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed, Mr. Howell.
MR. HOWELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
GLADYS HARUN,
having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HOWELL:
Q.
Please state your name for the record.
A.
Gladys Harun.
Q.
Thank you. And where do you reside?
A.
I stay in Byron, Georgia.
Q.
What's your address?
A.
182 Amelia Drive, Byron, Georgia 31008.
Q.
Thank you. Are you married?
A.
I'm separated.
Q.
Separated?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Has a divorce been filed in Georgia?
A.
Yes, it has.
Q.
Okay. Have you appeared in the case?
A.
No. I'm waiting to appear in court.
Q.
Are you scheduled to appear in that case?
A.
Not yet.
Q.
Okay. How many children do you have?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 6 of 41
7
A.
I have six.
Q.
Where do they reside?
A.
They live in Byron with me.
Q.
Okay. Could you give their names and ages for the Court.
A.
The first one is called Emmanuel Gathinji. He is 14 years
old. And the second one is Ann Wangui. She's 12 years old.
The third one is Sharon Gathinji. She's 9 years old. The
fourth one is Diana Harun. She is 5 years old. The other
one is Mark Gathinji. He is 4. And the last one is
Jacob Gathinji. He is 2.
Q.
Okay. And who takes care of your children?
A.
I do.
Q.
Do you do that on a full-time basis --
A.
Yes.
Q.
-- or do you have any help?
A.
I don't have any help. I just take care of them every
day.
Q.
Does your husband have any involvement with your children?
A.
He barely comes. He doesn't support us financially.
And he moved out. He lives in a motel. He barely comes home,
maybe once a month or twice a month, (indiscernible) go back.
Q.
Does he watch your children overnight on any frequent
basis?
A.
No, he doesn't.
Q.
Okay. Who has your kids right now?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 7 of 41
8
A.
They are with my friends. My friends are taking turns to
come in my house and watch them. I have, like, four Kenyan
friends. They are taking turns coming to take care of them.
Q.
Are you having a lot of contact with your children right
now while you're incarcerated?
A.
No. No, sir.
Q.
Okay. Quick question about Government's Exhibit 10.
Is this your passport, Ms. Harun?
A.
That's me, yes, sir.
Q.
Okay. Thank you.
Do your children have passports?
A.
Some of them do. Some of them are expired.
Q.
Okay. There's a question about your ability to appear as
called upon in this court.
If you were scheduled for a court appearance, would you be
willing to appear in the case?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
I will come.
Q.
You were asked earlier to meet with the prosecution in
this particular case; is that correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Did you voluntarily do that?
A.
I did.
Q.
Did you know before you met with them that you had no
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 8 of 41
9
obligation to meet with them whatsoever?
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
And you chose to do that anyway?
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
Okay. If the Court were to ask you to, say, surrender
your passport pending this particular case, would you be
willing to do that so that you could go home and prepare your
defense?
A.
Yes, sir. I'll do that.
Q.
Have you chosen to retain counsel to defend yourself in
this action?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay. Do you understand the nature of the charges before
the Court today?
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
Okay. Were there any narcotics offenses, by any chance,
raised in this case?
A.
No.
Q.
No?
Tell us a little bit about your community involvement.
Do you go to church?
A.
Yes. I go to Assemblies of God in Byron, Georgia.
Q.
Okay. And I asked you about your address.
Do you own your home there?
A.
Yes, I do. I bought a home there in 2019. I live in my
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 9 of 41
10
own house.
Q.
Okay. And prior to living there, did you live in Eastman,
Georgia, and Marietta, Georgia, before you moved from Kenya?
A.
Yes. I've been here 17 years in Georgia.
Q.
And when were you naturalized?
A.
In Atlanta.
Q.
Okay. Was that approximately December 11th, 2011?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay. Do you do any community service work in the state
of Georgia?
A.
Yes, I do. I participate in (indiscernible) activities in
Byron. I also, in my -- in my business, Jackson Hewitt, I file
free taxes for people. During the COVID, I was able to help
approximately 700 people and 300 seniors who did not afford
any money. So that is the charitable work I do in Georgia.
For people who were sick with COVID and could not afford any
fees, we filed their taxes for free. So every year, I do that
to help people --
Q.
Okay.
A.
-- yes.
Q.
Are you -- do you have a mortgage on your home?
A.
Yes. I have a big mortgage (indiscernible).
Q.
Are you current on the mortgage?
A.
Yes, I'm current.
Q.
So you're not in foreclosure or in forfeiture?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 10 of 41
11
A.
No. I'm good.
Q.
Okay. In your respective business, do you have any
employees of any kind?
A.
I have a total of 55. It fluctuates, but I have a total
of 55 every year, and I have some volunteers.
Q.
Do your employees have family?
A.
No, I don't have family.
Q.
Do your employees have family?
A.
Oh, they do have family, yes, sir.
Q.
Okay. Do they rely on the paychecks you provide in order
to provide for their families?
A.
Yes, Your Honor. They work full-time for me. I'm
actually supposed to pay them today. So this really was their
payday, but they don't know I'm here.
Q.
How are those families going to get paid if you're
incarcerated today?
A.
I don't know. I need to go home to pay them because I
hadn't -- I wasn't aware I was going arrested -- get arrested,
so I hadn't made any arrangements.
Q.
Let's talk about that.
Tell me a little bit about where you were arrested.
A.
I went to Savannah, Tybee Island on Monday. I went with
my children. I had gone to take them to watch fireworks in the
night. So we watched fireworks Monday night, 4th of July. It
was good.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 11 of 41
12
And then Tuesday morning, my kids told me to go and swim
with them. We went to the beach again. We spent a whole day
there. And then we came back to the hotel. I was cleaning my
kids in the car. I was still in my swimsuit, and so -- you
know, I was changing diapers, wiping their noses, and changing
their clothes so we can head home.
And that is when Brian approached me and told me, "Do you
remember me?"
I said, "Yeah, I remember you, Mr. Brian." I said, "What
are you doing here?" You know, I was just friendly.
And he told me, "We have arrest for you -- we have a
warrant for your arrest, and we are here to arrest you."
And I was begging him, "Let me change clothes because I'm
so wet." And they allowed me to change clothes and call
friends and everybody.
And I told him there was no need of that. I would have
surrendered myself if they had told me that they needed me.
You know, I've been cooperating with them the whole time.
I was to go to Kenya beginning of June, but I didn't go
because we had a proffer with them on the 29th of June. So
I've been respectful in the process. I've been forthcoming
towards them, and I want (indiscernible). That's why I stayed
here.
Q.
Were your children upset when you got arrested in front of
them on their vacation?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 12 of 41
13
A.
Oh, yes. It is very -- they've been crying ever since
that day.
Q.
Do they have any idea why you were arrested?
A.
They have no idea.
Q.
Okay. Let's talk a little bit about that proffer.
After the proffer, did we have a conversation concerning
travel?
A.
Yeah. We had a conversation that I will not travel
without notifying you. And Mr. Howard had promised me that,
you know, he was going to communicate to -- to me through you
and tell me what's going to happen. I was under the impression
that it was -- we would be negotiating and talking about the
whole things back and forth.
Q.
Did I specifically tell you not to make any plans to go
out of the country without talking to me first?
A.
Yes, you did.
Q.
Okay. And you stated, before you made -- finalized any
plans to go anywhere, you would run it through me, and I would
have to, in fact, ask the Government for their permission
before you traveled; is that correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay. Have you complied with that request?
A.
Yes, I did.
Q.
Do you have any travel plans currently to leave the
country?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 13 of 41
14
A.
No, I don't.
Q.
Do you -- can you promise to this court in front of
this judge that you will not leave the country pending the
resolution of this case?
A.
No, I will not. I will not leave the country. I promise.
Q.
Are you willing and able to comply with any stipulations
the Court requires in order for your release today on bond?
A.
Yes, I will comply with everything.
MR. HOWELL: Okay. No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Howard.
MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: You may.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
Ma'am, I've handed you the same exhibits that I provided
to Special Agent Jack. We may go through those, but I wanted
to make sure that you -- you had them so you could reference
them.
At the initial appearance, you told the Court that you
don't have family in America.
But that's not true, is it?
A.
I don't have immediate family in America.
Q.
You have six children; correct?
A.
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 14 of 41
15
Q.
Are those six children in America?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay. Now, you are a dual citizen with Kenya as well?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Do you have a Kenyan passport?
A.
No, I don't.
Q.
Now, with respect to this travel, you're represented by a
different attorney in your divorce proceeding; correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And did you tell that attorney in your divorce proceeding
that you would be out of the country from -- beginning on
July 6th?
A.
We were planning on leaving, but we didn't finalize
everything. My husband wanted to go, but we didn't -- we were
just talking, and we didn't finalize anything because, you
know, I can't travel without letting my attorney know. So it
was just -- just talk. It wasn't really finalized or nothing.
Q.
But my question --
A.
Uh-huh.
Q.
Did you tell your attorney that you were planning to be
out of the country on July 6th?
A.
I didn't specifically say July 6th. I told him I was
going to talk to my attorney and I would specifically tell him
the date I was going to leave.
Q.
Would it surprise you to learn that your attorney in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 15 of 41
16
the divorce proceeding emailed your husband's attorney in the
divorce proceeding and said that you would not be able to make
a court appearance because you planned to be out of the country
from July 6th to August 6th? Would that surprise you?
A.
Okay. First of all, you had told me, Mr. Howard, that
I have some time, almost 2 months, before you -- you really
decide what to do with my case. And we had talked with my
attorney. And I didn't know you were going to arrest me or
do all these things. I wasn't aware of these things.
I had -- I knew you had asked me for the permission and
everything else and I was to go through my attorney and see if
I can go see the school, like, 2 weeks and then come back here
so we can go ahead and finalize everything. So I wasn't --
I didn't know you were going to arrest me today.
And I wasn't fleeing. Every year, we go to Kenya and come
back, so it is just part of our lives. We've been going for
the past 19 years. We go and come back here. It's not like I
was trying to flee or anything. It's just that I didn't know
the sequence -- the flow of things.
You know, I wasn't aware that I'm going to be here today
and the seriousness of the whole thing. I didn't know I was
going to have these kind of serious charges or stuff like that.
When I came for the proffer, you didn't tell me the seriousness
of the issue. And so I wasn't trying to flee or anything.
Q.
I appreciate that, but that didn't answer my question.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 16 of 41
17
My question is specifically: Would it surprise you to
learn that your divorce attorney sent an email to your
husband's divorce attorney on June 22nd of this year stating
that "Ms. Harun is apparently going to be visiting family out
of the country from July 6th through August 6th and will not be
here for a hearing on July 29th"?
My question specifically is: Would it surprise you to
learn that?
A.
I'm not surprised because we had been talking about going
to Kenya. And I had told Mr. Thomas, but we hadn't finalized
everything. It was just talk, not finalized.
Q.
And if somebody were to leave the country, they would need
access to a lot of money; right?
A.
Well, it's a lot of preparation. And during the proffer,
you know, I didn't know all this was going to (indiscernible),
you know. So I've been respectful to you, Mr. Howard. I was
to leave to Kenya June the 1st, but you told me we were going
to have a proffer on the 29th, so I had made arrangements
then --
MR. HOWARD: Your Honor --
A.
-- but I --
MR. HOWARD: -- I'm going to --
A.
-- postpone everything.
MR. HOWARD: -- object as nonresponsive. We're sort
of doing this where I have to repeat the questions. So I am
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 17 of 41
18
going to object, I think, for everyone's time, as nonresponsive
to the question.
THE COURT: I'm going to let her finish her
explanation, and then, if you could, reask the question.
MR. HOWARD: Will do, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Ms. Harun.
A.
So June 1st, we had planned to go to Kenya, and -- my
husband always wanted to go to Kenya.
And so I talked to Mr. Thomas, and he said, "No. Don't go
until we do the proffer on the 29th."
So I postponed everything. But I've been talking and
shopping for airlines and everything. And my divorce attorney,
I had told him we wanted to leave in June.
But later on, I said, "Well, something came up. I'm going
to have to postpone everything."
So they knew I was, you know, going to leave in June. And
then we kept on postponing, postponing because I want to abide
with what you want me to do on this case.
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
You know, I forgot my question, but I may remember it.
And if I do, I'll come back to it.
Let's look at some documents. You talked about in your
direct the number of employees you have, so let's look at some
documents.
Looking at -- specifically at Government Exhibit 2, do you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 18 of 41
19
recognize that?
A.
I'm looking for it. Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay. So looking at Government Exhibit 2, the first page,
it lists a business phone there ending in 3301.
That's your number; correct?
A.
That's my business number.
Q.
Yes. It lists an email address there of
harungladys@yahoo.
That's your email address; correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
It lists a business of Embrace Africa d/b/a Jackson Hewitt
Tax.
That's your business; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Gladys C. Harun, owner 100 percent, that's -- that's you,
isn't it?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And looking at Page 2 of that exhibit showing that it was
submitted April 17th, 2020, you submitted a PPP application;
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay. And that -- that's -- PPP application that's
reflected in Government's Exhibit 2, that was to Wells Fargo
that you submitted; right?
A.
Yes, sir.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 19 of 41
20
Q.
All right. And looking at Government's Exhibit 3 -- I'll
give you a minute to turn there.
Have you had a chance to see Government's Exhibit 3?
A.
I'm looking at it.
Q.
Okay. And do you recognize -- the business phone, the
email address, the business name, and the contact, do you
recognize that all as your information, your business, and,
indeed, yourself as the contact?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay. And this corresponds to another PPP application
that you submitted to Wells Fargo; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Indeed, you submitted several Wells Fargo
PPP applications; right?
A.
I just did one. I don't remember doing several.
Q.
The second one -- were you ever denied a PPP application
from Wells Fargo?
A.
They denied my second one because 2019, I had very few
employees. But by the grace of God, in 2020 and 2021, my
business has grown, so I had many employees. And they felt
like I have many employees than I had said in 2019, but that's
normal for business.
Q.
Yeah. So the gross pay -- so the year 2021, that's when
your business grew?
A.
Even 2020. I had more employees in 2020.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 20 of 41
21
Q.
2020. And then it grew in 2021 as well; right?
A.
Yes, I believe so.
Q.
And just to be clear, I had asked you if you submitted
multiple PPP applications to Wells Fargo. You said you only
remembered one, but then you said, "They denied my second one."
So I want to be absolutely clear.
Did you submit just one PPP application to Wells Fargo, or
did you submit more than one?
THE COURT: I'm going to stop this there. I think --
I mean, I -- she's here to testify with respect to the Bail
Reform Act and the factors that apply to determine whether she
should be released or not.
She did touch on the number of employees during her
initial testimony, but I don't want us to stray at all from the
topics that she addressed there. I want to stay very -- stick
very closely to them and only, really, as it relates to the
bond determination.
I feel like we're getting probably away from the
bond, the purpose of the hearing --
MR. HOWARD: Sure.
THE COURT: -- and more to the merits of the case.
And I'm uncomfortable having a defendant on the stand anyway so
early in the case. For those reasons, if we could just stick
very narrowly to the scope of her direct examination, I think
we --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 21 of 41
22
MR. HOWARD: Understood, Your Honor.
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
And specifically, Ms. Harun, going to Exhibit 10, the
passport photo, that's your passport photo; correct?
A.
Hold on. Yes, sir.
Q.
Yeah.
A.
That's me.
Q.
Not somebody else?
A.
(No response.)
Q.
Not somebody else? It's you?
A.
No. That's me, yes.
Q.
Now, the -- you have heard some testimony and some
statements regarding Lotsie Gordon.
Was that her name?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay. And you saw the email in Government's Exhibit 11?
A.
I see it.
Q.
Okay. And you recognize that as having sent that email;
correct?
THE COURT: Well, what does that have to do with her
direct examination?
MR. HOWARD: Sure, Your Honor. So she's going into
what she testified was -- and has testified thus far about her
company's success, her charitable endeavors, the fact that she
did free tax returns for people, all of these benefits that she
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 22 of 41
23
is providing to others, the business, the number of employees
of the business, the veracity of the information that she's
provided, how she's provided truthful information to the
Government.
THE COURT: I'll stop you there. I mean, she didn't
talk about Lotsie Gordon and this email, and this hits on
exactly what I warned you about a while ago. So let's stick
very closely to what she testified about and testing the
veracity of that and not -- let's not stray off into the merits
of the case.
MR. HOWARD: Understood, Your Honor. There is one
further -- well, two further topics that I do want to touch
upon, and those were -- go towards witness tampering, which is
directly relevant to the bail determination, and those are the
text messages in Exhibit 12. Before asking her those
questions, if that's something that the Court deems to be out
of bounds, then so be it.
THE COURT: I believe it is, yeah, because she
didn't -- you proffered that, but she's not testified about it.
MR. HOWARD: Understood, Your Honor.
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
Now, I did ask before, ma'am -- and it was the question
that I thought that I forgot. But that -- the question that I
asked -- and you have testified earlier about your travel, your
plans, your intent to flee.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 23 of 41
24
The question I had asked -- that if you're going to fly
out of the country, you need -- you need a lot of money to do
that, particularly to Africa where flights are quite expensive;
correct?
A.
Yeah. This is very expensive.
Q.
And you were interviewed by special agents back in May of
this year; correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And do -- those two special agents that sit in this
courtroom today, they came, and they interviewed you; right?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And then the same day that they interviewed you, you went
to the bank, and you withdrew $100,000 in cash from your bank
account; correct?
A.
Well, I have a school in Kenya. I send them money and
everything. I was going to wire them some money for the
feeding program, and I did that in another bank. Sometimes I
do that.
Like, wiring money in Africa takes some time. Sometimes
I go to Wells Fargo. They tell me it's going to take 10 days.
And I want the orphans to get the money in 2 days, so I will
withdraw cash and then go to SunTrust and then send it to
Africa.
Q.
Just to be clear, after your interview, indeed, the same
day that you were interviewed by the agents, you went to -- is
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 24 of 41
25
it Truist Bank? Is that your bank?
A.
I don't remember doing that that same day. I don't
remember that.
Q.
But you do recall that the same day that the agents
interviewed you, you went to your bank account, and you
withdrew in cash $100,000; is that right?
A.
I don't think it's the same day.
Q.
Well, you testified about the need -- that you withdrew
that money in order for that money to go to Africa; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And so you withdrew money from your U.S. bank account and
withdrew that money in cash to get that money to Africa; is
that right?
A.
No, sir. I said sometimes I do that. And I can provide
you with documentation. Sometimes I withdraw cash from Wells
Fargo and go to SunTrust and wire transfer that money because
sometimes Wells Fargo gives me trouble -- a lot of trouble
doing international transfers.
Q.
You don't recall -- and you said you didn't think it was
the same day that the agents interviewed you; is that right?
A.
No. I normally do that, so it's part of what I do every
day. I will withdraw sometimes even 40,000 and then go to
another bank and send it to Africa depending on -- if they
tell me -- like, if I send today, when is the money going to be
available for the school? If they tell me it's going to be
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 25 of 41
26
immediately, then I go ahead and do it. If they tell me no,
then I go to another bank and do it for quicker service.
Q.
So are you saying it's a normal part of what you do of --
withdrawing $100,000 in cash from your bank account?
A.
No. I didn't say $100,000. But I said this year was
different because we had -- we -- I had, like, a charitable
thing I wanted to do in the school. I've been saving this
money since -- for a whole year, saving money, raising
donations, and everything. So it was money that I had put
aside for a certain project in the school. So that's all.
Q.
And if that's true, there would be a corresponding wire of
$100,000 shortly thereafter --
A.
Uh-huh.
Q.
-- the withdrawal?
A.
Yes, sir. I did wire that money.
Q.
And what bank did you use to wire that money?
A.
SunTrust.
Q.
SunTrust?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And that -- your recollection is it was just a coincidence
and that it happened --
A.
Yeah, it was a coincidence.
Q.
Let me finish the question.
A.
Sorry.
Q.
It was just a coincidence that you're withdrawing so much
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 26 of 41
27
money in cash shortly after the agents interview you; correct?
A.
I don't remember withdrawing money after -- after Brian
left my office. I don't remember doing it that day.
Q.
And at the end of that interview, the agents notified you
from a -- in a letter from the U.S. Attorney's Office that you
were a target of a federal grand jury investigation, didn't
they?
A.
Yes, they did.
Q.
You also talked about your business, which has grown.
I guess it grew in 2020, and it grew in 2021; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Looking at Government Exhibit 13, when we talk about that
growth of that business . . .
A.
On this particular one, I had lost a lot of money. I had
paid an attorney almost $11,000 to represent a case, and then
he flee to Texas. And so I didn't have no money -- my personal
money, not my business money, because I'm a business owner.
I have money for myself, but I don't -- I didn't have any money
for me to do this because an attorney had robbed me of money.
And (indiscernible) told (indiscernible) about it. I had paid
him $11,000 to represent me in the case, and he flee the state,
and so I didn't have no more money at all with me.
Q.
Ma'am, I haven't asked a question about this document yet.
The first question I have as to Government's Exhibit 13 --
looking at Page 2, there's a signature.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 27 of 41
28
Is that your signature?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
You filed this document that's reflected in the first two
pages of Government's Exhibit 13; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And in that document, you wrote, on Page 2, "I cannot be
able to pay an attorney." You just described attorneys are
expensive. You didn't have the money to do it. But then you
say "I am not employed now."
Do you see that?
A.
I'm (indiscernible). I'm not employed.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yeah, I do. I'm not employed.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
Q.
You have a business, which you talked about grew in 2020.
It grew in 2021. And this was filed in late 2021.
But you not only represented to the Court in asking for a
free attorney that you didn't have a business but also that you
weren't employed; is that right?
A.
My business is charity. And so when you talk about
Embrace Africa, there are so many lives that depend on leaders
of charity, so I don't see it really as a business. It's more
of a nonprofit. And we have so many activities that sometimes
if we go off the budget, we will not be able to feed children
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 28 of 41
29
in Kenya.
Q.
Your business is charity? Your -- is that what
(indiscernible)?
A.
We are nonprofit. We are basically nonprofit.
Q.
And that's Jackson Hewitt Tax; correct? That's your
business?
A.
Jackson Hewitt supports Embrace Africa. So, basically,
the money that we raise there is for nonprofit purposes mostly.
Q.
You represented to the -- and you were truthful in your
representations to the pretrial officer; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Yeah. And you represented to the pretrial officer
that you started a business, and your employer name is
Jackson Hewitt Tax service; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Do you own 12 locations as a franchise owner?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And when somebody walks into Jackson Hewitt Tax Service,
is there a big sign that says "Jackson Hewitt," or is there a
sign indicating that this is a charity?
A.
We have some that say "Embrace Africa" somewhere. I don't
know if it is visible.
Q.
Okay. Do you have some signs indicating that it's
Jackson Hewitt?
A.
Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 29 of 41
30
Q.
Okay. Now, you talked about that you -- it's a charity
that you're running, but you represented to the pretrial
officer that your monthly income -- your monthly income is
$66,666.67.
Is that what you represented to the probation officer?
A.
Which probation officer? I'm confused. Which one?
Q.
The one that sits to your right.
THE WITNESS: Did we discuss that? I don't remember
discussing that with you.
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
Were there discussions about your monthly income?
A.
I remember him asking me about my business income for the
whole year, but I don't remember, really, discussing my own
money.
Q.
Okay. So when he wrote "Monthly Income, $66,666.67," that
doesn't accurately reflect your income? Is that what you're
saying?
A.
I don't remember that discussion.
Q.
Well, I'm not asking if you remember your discussion.
I'm asking you specifically: Is your monthly income --
you, not your business -- your monthly income for this charity
that operates under a tax service name $66,666.67?
A.
No, it's not.
Q.
No, that's not accurate. Okay.
Well, let's talk about the -- and I don't know if you have
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 30 of 41
31
a copy of the pre- -- of the report. I can give you mine so
you can look at it.
MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. HOWARD:
Q.
Ma'am, I'm handing you a copy of the pretrial report.
It's my copy. I apologize if there's writing on it.
But do you see a little box there that talks about time
with employer? It's in the middle of the page a little bit to
the right. It talks about time with employer. It mentions
6 years and 6 months.
Do you see that?
A.
I don't remember stating this kind of money, but I
remember telling him how much I make, like, the whole year.
Q.
Okay.
A.
I don't -- I don't remember this.
Q.
Okay. Well, is it accurate that you've been employed for
6 years and 6 months through that Jackson Hewitt Tax Service
charity?
A.
Are you asking the part of my business income that I get
myself?
Q.
I'm not asking anything about your business income.
A.
Okay.
Q.
My question --
A.
Uh-huh.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 31 of 41
32
Q.
-- didn't ask anything about income. It was
specifically -- I'm looking at a pretrial report -- now you're
looking at my copy -- where it says your time with the employer
is 6 years and 6 months.
What I was trying to figure out -- have you been with
Jackson Hewitt --
A.
Yes.
Q.
-- Tax Service --
A.
That's right.
Q.
-- for 6 years and 6 months?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
That's your employment? That's how you've been employed?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Yes. But yet, going back to Government Exhibit 13, in
September of 2021, you told a federal judge, declaring that
your answers are true and correct with your signature, as
you've acknowledged, that "I am not employed now" as you're
asking the Court to provide you with an attorney for free of
charge.
Can you explain that inconsistency between you being
employed for 6 years and you saying a couple of months ago that
"I'm not employed. Give me a free attorney"?
A.
First of all, Jackson Hewitt is a seasonal -- is a
seasonal business. Even though I've been with them, like,
6 years and 6 months, we -- we stay months and times without
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 32 of 41
33
employment. I don't remember specifically when I was asking
the Court for that. But we don't work year-round. We're only
there for 4 months.
But I remember the reason why I did that -- I had paid an
attorney $11,000, and he let a whole case crumble and went out
of state. In my pocket -- my money had fluctuated. I didn't
have any money. And I don't remember having any income at that
time, and that's why I had asked the Court to help me. I
wasn't having an income at that time.
MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, I have no further questions
for this witness.
I don't know if Counsel has any other witnesses. I
do have a rebuttal witness given some of the testimony that
she's provided today.
If I could reclaim the pretrial report and the
exhibits . . .
THE COURT: Sure.
All right. Mr. Howell, any follow-up questioning for
this witness?
MR. HOWELL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. You may step down and
rejoin Counsel at the table.
(The testimony of Gladys Harun concluded at 12:03 p.m.)
- - -
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 33 of 41
34
(The Court's ruling commenced at 12:54 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. After careful consideration
of everything that I've heard here today during the hearing and
the exhibits submitted as well as the original complaint and
affidavit in support, I do find that she should be detained
pending trial. I do believe she's a flight risk.
And I want to touch on a couple of the things that
leads me to this conclusion. I mean, first of all, certainly,
she has the strongest ties imaginable to a foreign country
in that she was born in Kenya and has family there and visits
often. And, you know, far more important to me than that is
I just can't find any morsel of support for believing that
she's going to follow what I tell her to do and that she'll
report honestly to the probation officer her conduct.
I look back at that August 2021 filing that she gave
to Judge Self in the Middle District of Georgia, and it really
stands out to me because, there, she says to him categorically
I have no job; I cannot work because I'm disabled; and I have
very little money such that I cannot afford to hire an
attorney. None of those things were true.
And so if she will lie to a district judge in the
context of a civil action, then how can I trust what she's
telling me here today?
And certainly, those statements she made to
Judge Self stand very much in contrast to the statements that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 34 of 41
35
she gave to Mr. Wright White (phonetic) the probation officer,
in that bail report. And in my conversation with him, it is
very clear that she reported income of $800,000 a year and
testified on the stand today that her business has been
thriving over the last 2 years. And so I can't square that
with what she told Judge Self. They're diametrically opposed
presentations of the facts.
And, certainly, there is strong evidence here, in
addition to her strong ties to Kenya, that she had plans to
travel. I've never heard, in 9 years on the bench, of someone
being interviewed by agents about -- and told that they're a
target and, on the same day, withdrawing $100,000 not to
transfer to another account but in cash.
And so automatically when you hear that, you think,
"Boy, might she be wanting to leave to go somewhere?"
It could be an American citizen with no ties to a
foreign country engaging in that same act, and you'd still
raise the question, I think legitimately, "Does this person
have plans to flee the country?" because they've met with
federal agents who told them, "You're under investigation, and
you are a target of the federal government."
And on top of that, you not only have the withdrawal
in cash of such a large amount of money, but you also have a
statement from her attorney that -- she expressed no surprise
to hear him saying this -- a statement from her civil attorney
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 35 of 41
36
to another attorney that she was unavailable for court
proceedings in that case for an entire month of July because
she planned to be in Kenya.
And at that moment in time, she admitted on the stand
that, yes, she was in the general stages of planning such a
trip. But certainly no one had reached out to Mr. Howell or,
more importantly, to Mr. Howard to talk about plans for such a
trip.
When you look at the other factors under the Bail
Reform Act, I think that they certainly support detention
as well. I do think that the weight of the evidence here is
strong as we reviewed it this morning through the agent's
testimony.
And I do think she presents a danger to the
community. And when you think about danger, often, people
think about stabbings and shootings and things like that. But
danger to the community is really the risk that someone's going
to commit a crime and -- of any nature, including a financial
crime.
And the fact that she owns 12 of these franchise tax
businesses means that there is significant opportunity there
for financial fraud to continue to occur. And so I do
believe -- given the fact that I don't think she's credible and
the fact that she owns these businesses, when you compare that
with the exhibits submitted this morning, I do think that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 36 of 41
37
there's strong evidence that she's a danger to the community
as well.
Now, I do want to explain to you that while you are
being detained based on the reasoning I just gave that this
analysis of the case that I'm conducting right now has -- is
completely separate from the process of determining whether
you're guilty or innocent of the crimes that you've been
charged with.
I hope you understand that you are presumed innocent
of those charges under our Constitution. And that presumption
of innocence is firmly in place today. I'm not telling you
you're guilty of these things, but I do have to make a decision
about what to do with you in this critical period -- I see you
raising your hand, but you had a chance to testify today, and,
also, your counsel has made arguments on your behalf, so
there's -- at this time, we've closed consideration of any new
facts that you may want to provide.
You're presumed innocent. But the fact of the matter
is a grand jury did convene with a prosecutor and not --
without the benefit of you being in the room. The grand jury
reviewed the evidence that the Prosecution has and made a
preliminary determination that you probably committed these
crimes, not that you actually did. Well, actually, that's --
I'm sorry. Scratch that. We've not had a grand jury
proceeding yet.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 37 of 41
38
But I have reviewed the affidavit of the agent, and
I've made a finding that you probably committed these offenses.
And so we have to -- while you're under suspicion of committing
a crime when you've been formally charged, as you have, during
this interim period of time between now and the time of your
jury trial, we have to decide what to do with each person that
is presented.
And my determination today that you should be
detained pending that trial has nothing to -- no bearing
whatsoever on what a jury might do with this case at trial.
The Government has a very high burden at your trial. They have
to prove by -- beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of
12 jurors that you actually committed these offenses.
And so we're a long way away from that. And I don't
want you to take from what I'm saying today that that's any
indication of ultimate guilt or innocence. That's reserved for
the jury at the trial of your case down the road.
Is there anything further from the Government's
perspective we need to address today in this hour -- in this
matter, Mr. Howard?
MR. HOWARD: Not with respect to detention,
Your Honor. I think the outstanding issue of a preliminary
hearing -- I don't know if the Court wants to quickly do that
today. It would be -- indeed, I think I could, alternatively,
either rest on the evidence that's been put forth already,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 38 of 41
39
because there's a lot of overlap between the preliminary
hearing and the evidence that this Court heard from the
Government with respect to detention, or -- you know, I'll sort
of defer to the Court and to Defense Counsel, but I guess one
option I wanted to propose is, again, the Government to sort of
rest and resubmit the evidence that's been provided so that the
Court can consider that with respect to the prelim hearing.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you for reminding me about
that.
We've heard probably 98 percent, it sounds like, of
the evidence that the Government would submit in support of the
probable cause hearing. After hearing that evidence --
MR. HOWELL: I agree, Your Honor. And I actually
talked with Mr. Howard about that, and I thought it would be
okay to proceed as he suggested --
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. HOWELL: -- today.
THE COURT: Well, that's up to you. You now have a
much better picture of what the Government is presenting. And
you really have two options -- three options from here.
Number one, we can go ahead right now and wrap up
that evidence and have you cross-examine the agent. We could
postpone that until Monday. Or, based on the evidence that
you've heard today, it may be that she wants to waive her right
to a preliminary hearing. You may have reached a point where
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 39 of 41
40
you feel like there's no good faith argument to the contrary
in terms of probable cause.
Do you need a minute to talk to your client about
that?
MR. HOWELL: Just a moment, yes, please.
THE COURT: Take the time you need. And y'all need
some privacy.
Can we take them in -- out of the courtroom into a
private room for them to have that conversation?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. I'll take her
downstairs.
THE COURT: Okay.
All right. We'll take a short recess until then.
COURT SECURITY OFFICER: All rise.
(The Court's ruling concluded at 1:02 p.m.)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 40 of 41
41
C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Victoria L. Root, Certified Court Reporter, in and
for the United States District Court for the Southern District
of Georgia, do hereby certify that the foregoing transcript
of the requested excerpts from the proceedings held in the
above-entitled matter were transcribed to the best of my
ability from the Court's electronic recording system and
that the transcript page format is in conformance with the
regulations of the Judicial Conference of the United States.
WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL this 19th day of July, 2022.
__________________________________
VICTORIA L. ROOT, CCR B-1691
United States Court Reporter
Southern District of Georgia
Savannah Division
Post Office Box 312
Meldrim, Georgia 31318
(912) 650-4066
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Case 1:22-mj-00051-BKE Document 24 Filed 07/19/22 Page 41 of 41File and source
- File
- gov.uscourts.gasd.87366.24.0.pdf
- Size
- 137,074 bytes
- SHA-256
- bc4bda44a73d162630b5ff8c4bafe9d81f51241dbf75b16813506022b97e59b9
- Our copy
- gov.uscourts.gasd.87366.24.0.pdf
- Original
- PACER (login required)