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Transcript of Sentencing Proceedings — Carla Jackson
Summary
The transcript of the May 16, 2024 sentencing proceedings for Carla Jackson in United States of America v. Carla Jackson, Docket No. 1:20-CR-296-JPB, before United States District Judge J.P. Boulee in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Georgia, filed June 22, 2024, as Document 1047. The court states that on February 15th a jury found Jackson guilty of Counts 46 and 47 of the second superseding indictment for money laundering. Defense counsel David D. Marshall withdraws the loss-amount objections and argues for a mitigating role adjustment under guideline 3B1.2, contending that Andre Gaines took part in the money laundering offenses. The court identifies mitigating role and the government's requested obstruction enhancement as the two remaining issues.
Summary drafted by a model from the document's text below and checked by script against that text before publication. It is a navigation aid, not a reading of what the document proves. Where AI is used
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“Transcript of Sentencing Proceedings — Carla Jackson.”
Original at ecf.gand.uscourts.gov, No. 1:20-cr-00296-JPB-CMS, Doc. 1047. Archived at Pandemic Darlings, https://pandemicdarlings.com/court-filings/us-v-dixon/2024-05-16-sentencing-transcript-dkt-1047/
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
2 ATLANTA DIVISION
3
4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
5 )
-VS- ) DOCKET NO. 1:20-CR-296-JPB
6 )
CARLA JACKSON, )
7 )
DEFENDANT. )
8
9 TRANSCRIPT OF SENTENCING PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE J.P. BOULEE
10 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
MAY 16, 2024
11
12
13 APPEARANCES:
14 ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT:
ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT:
15 TAL C. CHAIKEN, ESQ.
SAMIR KAUSHAL, ESQ.
16 NORMAN BARNETT, ESQ.
BABASIJIBOMI MOORE, ESQ.
17 ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS
18
ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT - CARLA JACKSON:
19 DAVID D. MARSHALL, ESQ.
20
21
22 STENOGRAPHICALLY RECORDED BY:
23 PENNY PRITTY COUDRIET, RMR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
24 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
ATLANTA, GEORGIA
25
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1 (PROCEEDINGS HELD IN OPEN COURT AT 12:59 PM, ATLANTA, GA.)
2 COURTROOM DEPUTY CLERK: The Court has set aside time
3 for a sentencing in United States of America v. Carla Jackson,
4 Case Number 1:20-CR-296.
5 Will counsel and probation state their appearances
6 for the record.
7 MS. CHAIKEN: Good afternoon, your Honor. Tal
8 Chaiken for the United States. Seated with me at counsel
9 table are Samir Kashual from my office and Siji Moore from the
10 Department of Justice's fraud section. And seated behind us
11 is Special Agent Stefan Bublitz from the FBI.
12 THE COURT: Thank you.
13 MR. MARSHALL: Good afternoon, Judge Boulee. David
14 Marshall appearing on behalf of Ms. Carla Jackson.
15 THE COURT: Good afternoon to both of you as well.
16 OFFICER RIDLEY: Good afternoon, your Honor. Maria
17 Ridley on behalf of the United States Probation Office.
18 THE COURT: Officer, good to see you.
19 On February 15th of this year a jury found
20 Ms. Jackson guilty of Counts 46 and 47 of the second
21 superseding indictment for the offense of money laundering.
22 In accordance with Rule 32 of the Federal Rules of
23 Criminal Procedure the US Probation Office has conducted a
24 presentence investigation and prepared a presentence report, a
25 copy of which has been provided to both the government and the
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1 defense.
2 Mr. Marshall, have you and your client had an
3 opportunity to read and discuss the presentence report?
4 MR. MARSHALL: We have, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Do you have any questions about the
6 presentence report or any amendments now other than what's
7 been previously filed?
8 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, I did submit I think an extra
9 e-mail to Ms. Lee at some point, but it will be addressed I
10 think as we go through the PSR but nothing additional.
11 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
12 Which extra e-mail was that just to make sure that
13 I've seen it?
14 MR. MARSHALL: I had e-mailed, I believe, an
15 objection to the restitution amount. I believe Ms. Lee may
16 have gotten that e-mail.
17 THE COURT: I saw that.
18 MR. MARSHALL: Right. I'm not going to argue for
19 that, Judge. The full restitution amount is what is under
20 MVRA that's allowed. And it's in the discretion of the
21 Department of Justice on how or if they will offset it. So I
22 do not need to address that.
23 There are some objections that I initially made to
24 the loss amount in the PSR. They're still showing in the
25 revised PSR. I think I just got those. They were in my
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1 sentencing memorandum, so they may not have gotten to
2 Ms. Ridley in time. There are specific paragraphs on those.
3 I can let the Court know.
4 Withdrawing objections to paragraphs 82, 93, 95 and
5 105 -- or 103, excuse me.
6 Defendant does object to paragraph 92 in the revised
7 PSR, that's the government's argument for obstruction
8 enhancement.
9 And then the final, I guess, adjusted the sentencing
10 options at the end, I believe paragraphs 99, 100 and 103 could
11 be impacted, I guess, by the objections, Judge.
12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
13 Just so we're clear, I know that you had withdrawn
14 the objections to loss amount. I had paragraph 73 involving
15 that as well. Do you withdraw that objection?
16 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, if it's -- yes. Yes, your Honor,
17 exactly, 73 also.
18 As the Court knows we did -- we are arguing for a
19 role adjustment. I know you'll get to that at some point.
20 And the government's obviously asking for an obstruction
21 enhancement.
22 THE COURT: Understood. And just so the record is
23 clear, then, as well, as far as the restitution versus
24 forfeiture e-mail that you sent, you're not arguing that point
25 anymore, you've withdrawn that?
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1 MR. MARSHALL: No. No, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: All right. Very well.
3 All right. There are some unresolved guideline
4 issues that I want to discuss. There were some incorporated
5 clarifications that seemed to not be at issue to anyone.
6 There was one factual issue that doesn't go to the
7 guideline, but I wanted to get the government's position that
8 involved it's either paragraph 109 or 112 regarding the
9 incident that Ms. Jackson says was entirely Mr. Gaines and not
10 her.
11 Does the government want to be heard on that point?
12 MS. CHAIKEN: No, your Honor. It doesn't effect the
13 guidelines and we don't have any information --
14 THE COURT: I'll sustain that objection, then, and
15 won't consider that issue.
16 MR. MARSHALL: Thank you.
17 THE COURT: So I think that the two remaining issues,
18 then, are mitigating role and obstruction. Does everyone
19 agree?
20 MS. CHAIKEN: Yes, your Honor.
21 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Let's take the mitigating role
23 issue first. Mr. Marshall, that's your burden, so I'll hear
24 from you first.
25 MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Judge.
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1 Judge, in part I'm going to go through the factors
2 that the Court looks at in looking at sentencing guideline
3 3B1.2 for a role adjustment, mitigating adjustment. And I'm
4 going to address some of the government arguments against it
5 because I've not had a chance to do a reply or I haven't filed
6 a reply to their response memorandum.
7 It is correct, the two first principles that the
8 Court looks at are determination of the defendant's role in
9 the offense. That's the defendant's role and the relevant
10 conduct for which she is held accountable at sentencing.
11 And, number two, the defendant's role as compared to
12 other participant's roles in the relevant conduct.
13 So that's the opening requirement for a court to look
14 at, your Honor.
15 The government is right, the universe of the
16 defendants that have to be looked at to try to determine a
17 role adjustment and whether Ms. Jackson is eligible for it
18 will be three individuals. It will be actually Ms. Jackson,
19 John Gaines and Andre Gaines.
20 And I do want to point out, I don't know if the Court
21 has a copy of the government's sentencing memorandum, but I
22 will be referring to parts of it. And I'm going to cite
23 actually page three and page four of the government 's
24 memorandum. And that's Docket Number 994.
25 THE COURT: I have it.
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1 MR. MARSHALL: So the middle paragraph, Ms. Jackson
2 has been held accountable for only the amount of the laundered
3 funds. So we have that. And her role in the offense is
4 determined by comparing her role to other participants in that
5 relevant conduct.
6 Now, it says down below in the bottom of that
7 paragraph, it says, The only other participant in the offenses
8 for which Jackson was held accountable, concealment money
9 laundering, is John Gaines. And the Court, therefore, cannot
10 compare Jackson's role to anyone other than John Gaines.
11 And then there's a reference at the top of page four
12 to footnote two. And that is, Andre Gaines was not a
13 participant in the money laundering offenses for which Jackson
14 was held accountable. He is pleading guilty to lying to the
15 FBI in connection with an interview he gave about Gaines
16 Reservation and the PPP loan. So I want to address that
17 first, if I could, Judge.
18 I've written on this, Judge. This is a copy of the
19 first indictment. It was handed down in this case. And it
20 was filed on August 4th, 2020. And the second-named defendant
21 in this indictment is Andre Lee Gaines. He is charged in one,
22 two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight separate counts. He
23 is charged with conspiracy to commit bank fraud and wire
24 fraud, that's in Count 1. He is charged with substantive
25 counts, violation of bank fraud in Count 2. Allegations of
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1 wire fraud in Count 3. Allegations of providing false
2 statements to a federally-insured bank in Count 14. And then
3 four separate counts of money laundering in Counts 18, 19, 27,
4 and 28.
5 Counts 27 and 28 Ms. Jackson is also charged in.
6 They happened to deal with the two transactions at issue in
7 this case that Ms. Jackson was found guilty of. Those are the
8 two money transfers. There was one wire transfer and then a
9 bank deposit, a check deposit that was made into her account.
10 Andre Gaines was charged in part of that conduct.
11 So I do want to point out, Judge, this statement in
12 the footnote that the government has here that Andre Gaines
13 was not a participant is just a misrepresentation. It's not
14 true. The government decided at a later time to not go
15 forward with those charges against Mr. Andre Gaines but
16 decided to offer him a different deal to pleading to a false
17 statement to a federal officer, and then he got a five-year
18 probated sentence. But to say that he was not a participant
19 in the money laundering offenses for which Ms. Jackson was
20 held accountable is just false, Judge. And I want to correct
21 that misrepresentation to the Court.
22 So there are three individuals. Andre Gaines's
23 company, Gaines Reservation & Travel, was the company where
24 these funds came from. The check that went to Ms. Jackson's
25 bank account was signed by Andre Gaines. The funds that came
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1 into her account by wire transfer were transferred from the
2 bank account of Andre Gaines's company, Gaines Reservation &
3 Travel. So I wanted to point that out initially, your Honor.
4 Now, there's several factors that the Court has to
5 address. The government goes over some of these, too. Number
6 one is to determine what kind of role somebody could be
7 eligible for, whether it's a minor role or minimal role.
8 A, the degree to which Jackson understood the scope
9 and structure of the criminal activity.
10 Now, in this one the government argues that
11 Ms. Jackson understood all of this because she was a direct
12 participant in the money laundering. And that's, in essence,
13 the argument that because the money came into her account by
14 check and by a wire transfer, that she understood the scope
15 and the structure of the criminal activity.
16 I would rebut that quickly just with a comparison to
17 a drug case, Judge, because a lower-level party that agrees to
18 stash drugs in his house for a drug cartel, for instance, and
19 does that and agrees to receive drugs maybe on two different
20 occasions into his house does not equate that he understands
21 the scope and the structure of the overall criminal activity.
22 So the fact that she received money into her bank
23 account on two different dates, two different transactions
24 does not mean that she understood the scope and structure of
25 the criminal activity.
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1 There was no evidence at trial that was presented
2 that Ms. Jackson knew about all of the conversations going on
3 between Darrell Thomas and John Gaines. There are no e-mails
4 or communications where Ms. Jackson is copied on anything or
5 where she sends any e-mails or where she's the recipient of
6 any e-mail. So all of that is being generated primarily by
7 Darrell Thomas and John Gaines as far as the PPP loan fraud.
8 But then as far as the money laundering, you have John Gaines,
9 Andre Gaines and then Ms. Jackson being the recipient of the
10 funds that come into her account.
11 Also, and this is on page four of the government's
12 memorandum, the government argues that Ms. Jackson knew that
13 John Gaines was involved in the fraudulent PPP loan
14 applications in the spring of 2020 and had even partially
15 completed a PPP loan application herself. There's no evidence
16 that shows that she was going to submit a fraudulent PPP loan
17 application.
18 THE COURT: But I'm not sure that I buy your
19 corollary to stashing the drugs. I mean, money laundering,
20 the whole idea of money laundering is moving moneys from one
21 place to the other usually to hide the corrupt nature of the
22 money. And here she was -- and there's two sides to that,
23 sending and receiving. She was half of that.
24 So how do you -- how do you say, oh, this is just
25 like there's a big drug deal and all you did was let me store
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1 it at your place? This is -- I don't buy that correlation.
2 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, I would just say in the context
3 of the factor you're looking at as far as whether she
4 understood the scope and structure, that's what I'm focusing
5 on.
6 THE COURT: That's the same thing I'm focusing on.
7 I'm saying the scope and structure of money laundering is
8 the movement of that money to one place where it will be
9 discovered and one place that it might not be discovered,
10 so -- or look clean. So I don't buy that. Am I missing
11 something?
12 MR. MARSHALL: Well, I would say this: There's
13 nothing that shows Ms. Jackson knew about -- for instance,
14 John Gaines's testimony, he got on the stand I think and
15 mentioned about wanting to move money to other accounts, I
16 guess, to claw back and move things around. There's no
17 testimony that Ms. Jackson knew anything about any of that
18 stuff. So that's part of the scope and structure of the
19 criminal activity, about how that was done and why that was
20 done. So she certainly didn't know about that. There's no
21 evidence that shows that she knew about what Darrell Thomas
22 and John Gaines were discussing about moving the money over to
23 her bank account.
24 The money came into her account, that is irrefutable,
25 Judge. But as far as determining the scope and structure of
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1 the criminal activity and what John Gaines was doing and what
2 his agreement was with Mr. Darrell Thomas for the PPP loan
3 moneys that were received and also for Andre Gaines, there's
4 no direct evidence of that, of her knowing other than she was
5 getting money that was coming into her account and because of
6 the jury's verdict that she did know that the source was an
7 illegal source for the funds.
8 THE COURT: Well, exactly. I mean, you know, you may
9 not like that result but that's what the jury found. You
10 know, they found that she was getting money that she knew was
11 the result of PPP fraud.
12 MR. MARSHALL: Right. But I still say, Judge --
13 THE COURT: And money laundering, again, half of it
14 is the movement and the recipient of it.
15 MR. MARSHALL: Right. But it still doesn't say -- it
16 doesn't show because she receives it that she knows the scope
17 and the structure of the fraud that's being committed and the
18 money movement that's occurring and why that's occurring.
19 THE COURT: But it's not -- when you say "the scope
20 of the fraud that's being committed," that goes back to -- it
21 sounds like you want me to just throw out and pretend that the
22 Salgado case doesn't exist.
23 MR. MARSHALL: She knows the money came into her
24 account, Judge, she knows that, the jury's found her guilty of
25 that. They impute knowledge that she knew the source was bad.
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1 I was just saying that her scope is limited as far as all the
2 other front-end conversations about the money laundering and
3 its purpose and so forth. But she does have knowledge, Judge,
4 according to the jury's verdict.
5 THE COURT: All right. I'll let you move on to the
6 next point, but I can tell you I'm not convinced of your first
7 argument.
8 MR. MARSHALL: Okay.
9 The degree to which Jackson participated in planning
10 or organizing criminal activity, this is in response to
11 government's page five, subsection B. And the government
12 responds, While she was not an organizer, however, that does
13 not entitle her to a mitigating role.
14 That's true.
15 And then on the top of page six, the government
16 closes off by saying that, Jackson's assertion that she was
17 not involved in the planning or organization of the broader
18 conspiracy involving PPP loan fraud, while true, is
19 irrelevant.
20 Well, it is relevant because it's the factor we're
21 looking at in this guideline under 3B1.2. So this factor
22 points in favor of Ms. Jackson. She was not -- there's no
23 evidence showing that she was planning or organizing any of
24 this criminal activity. We know abundantly clear that this
25 was Darrell Thomas and John Gaines primarily.
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1 THE COURT: Wait. But, again, Mr. Marshall, your --
2 I think you're again ignoring the Salgado case and you're
3 saying, oh, she wasn't in authority for the greater PPP fraud.
4 All we're talking about here is the money laundering.
5 MR. MARSHALL: Right. Even there, Judge, I think --
6 well, that's the factor we have to look at, whether she
7 planned and organized the criminal activity. Did she contact
8 John Gaines and say, look --
9 THE COURT: I thought you moved to C and
10 decision-making authority?
11 MR. MARSHALL: I was in B, Judge. Excuse me.
12 Excuse me. Yes, I was in B, Judge. That's where I'm at, on
13 page five. Is that where you are?
14 THE COURT: Correct.
15 MR. MARSHALL: So I don't know of any evidence that
16 showed that she planned it, structured when these --
17 THE COURT: I thought you were on C. I agree that
18 you've got a decent argument under B.
19 MR. MARSHALL: All right. So it is a relevant
20 factor.
21 Okay. Go on to C, the degree to which Jackson
22 exercised decision-making authority or influenced the exercise
23 of decision-making authority. Again, it says she's an
24 educated woman, alone decided to allow John Gaines to use her
25 bank account -- actually, it was Andre Gaines whose account it
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1 came from, from Gaines Reservation & Travel and the PPP loan
2 proceeds. She made the decision to deposit a check, that's
3 true, your Honor, even though she was not consulting for
4 Gaines Reservation or providing daily business management, she
5 made the decision.
6 So on this one, Judge, again, I still point to the
7 fact on the front end as far as what was being decided by
8 Darrell Thomas and John Gaines and Andre Gaines, she was not
9 exercising decision-making authority or influencing where
10 those funds would go. We know directly from John Gaines's
11 testimony, he's saying that this was a decision by Darrell
12 Thomas to move this money and find an account to do that. And
13 then John Gaines came in and provided his ex-wife's account to
14 do that, Judge. So that's all I'm saying on that factor.
15 THE COURT: Well, but it's not as if she didn't know
16 it was on the way.
17 MR. MARSHALL: She did know that.
18 THE COURT: Right. So --
19 MR. MARSHALL: Well, I'm --
20 THE COURT: As far as the decision as to where it
21 goes, you know, yes, I grant your argument that on the front
22 end of the decision she wasn't involved, but she was involved
23 in the decision itself, in the actual execution. Am I missing
24 something?
25 MR. MARSHALL: I guess it's this way, too, Judge, you
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1 don't like the drug comparison, but, again, it's that same
2 thing. The person that gets drugs into a stash house, they're
3 not making decisions on the front end about where it's going
4 to go, but that person does have to agree to let the drugs
5 into his house on those separate dates and lock it up and so
6 forth. So there's some type of, you know, decision by saying,
7 I'm going to allow this, but those decisions about where it
8 goes, where the drugs are going to go were not made by that
9 person, it's made by somebody else. I'm saying that here is
10 true also for John Gaines and also for Darrell Thomas, part C.
11 Part D, Judge, the nature and extent of Jackson's
12 participation in the commission of the criminal activity,
13 including the acts performed and the responsibility and
14 discretion Jackson had in performing those acts. Again, her
15 account was used. That could go either way, Judge. Her
16 account was used for the deposit of the funds, we know that.
17 So that's consistent through all of these factors.
18 On factor E, the degree to which Jackson stood to
19 benefit from the criminal activity, I write that in here, in
20 the middle of this paragraph -- well, page seven on the
21 government's memorandum, and I write in my memorandum that
22 this is unclear in part because the FBI seized all the moneys
23 shortly after the deposits were made. So we do know that once
24 the moneys got into the account that there was a text message,
25 and it was introduced into evidence at trial, Judge, that John
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1 Gaines directed Ms. Jackson to withdraw money and get three
2 cashier's checks for $10,000 each, and they were made out
3 under the direction of John Gaines. I think two of them were
4 to auto loan payments. They were all directed by John Gaines
5 for her to do that, pull that money out.
6 So at least for the $30,000 there's no showing that
7 she benefitted at all from that money. There was some
8 additional money, I think maybe about $9,700 I thought we had
9 testimony, I'm not sure if I recall exactly, that was used
10 possibly for other things that related to insurance payments,
11 things of that nature. But other than that, we don't know how
12 these other funds would have been used. Ms. Jackson says they
13 were going to be used for this project they were planning in
14 Alabama. But there's no evidence of her using this money for
15 buying cars and things like that and how she would benefit
16 other than the fact that she withdrew money primarily on the
17 direction of John Gaines to take out these cashier's checks.
18 So, Judge, I think we're still missing Andre Gaines
19 in all of this. I think it would be true, if we're looking
20 at just the three parties who are here, John Gaines was
21 instrumental in this. He was obviously probably the most
22 important. Andre Gaines was equally important or a little
23 less so because his business was used, his bank account was
24 used, he signed the check, he allowed his bank to transfer the
25 funds that were illegally obtained to Ms. Jackson's account
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1 and to other accounts. So without Andre being available to do
2 this, Judge, they would have had to find some other way to --
3 and some other account to do this. Andre Gaines was
4 instrumental in getting these funds sent over to what ended
5 up to be Ms. Jackson's bank account.
6 So of the three individuals I would say my argument
7 is Ms. Jackson is the least culpable of those three in the
8 money laundering scheme, not in anything else, in the money
9 laundering scheme because she was the least active. She did
10 make her account available for the funds to get put into her
11 account, but she didn't create it, she didn't apply for the
12 fraudulent PPP loan that was -- those documents that were
13 signed by Andre Gaines.
14 So we cannot forget that Andre Gaines is still
15 central to this, Judge, it's not just John Gaines. It's
16 Andre Gaines, it's John Gaines, and then at the end it's
17 Ms. Jackson. I think that should qualify her for at least a
18 two-point minor role adjustment, Judge, again, looking at the
19 case, it's De Varon case, comparing the relative
20 responsibilities and what each defendant of those three did in
21 this case and how critical they were in committing the money
22 laundering that occurred in the counts that were charged.
23 And remember, Andre Gaines was charged with the
24 original money laundering counts like Ms. Jackson. It was his
25 business, it was his PPP loan application, and he signed the
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1 documents for everything, including the bank check, Judge.
2 THE COURT: Thank you.
3 MS. CHAIKEN: Thank you, your Honor.
4 Your Honor, I want to start with Andre Gaines,
5 because our treatment of Andre Gaines as not being a
6 participant was actually to Ms. Jackson's benefit. If you
7 consider Andre Gaines as a participant in the money laundering
8 offense, Ms. Jackson is not even close to being substantially
9 less culpable than the average participant.
10 Andre Gaines is a disabled, elderly, cognitively-
11 impaired person who has been before this Court and was
12 struggling to even string together sentences. And the Court
13 heard the evidence at trial that Andre Gaines never logged
14 into the Gaines Reservation & Travel bank account after the
15 PPP program was announced in March of 2020. There were no
16 e-mails between Andre Gaines and Darrell Thomas, not a single
17 one. There was no transaction that Andre Gaines ever did in
18 the Gaines Reservation & Travel account after the money came
19 into the account as far as transactions that can actually be
20 linked to him, like a debit card transaction or an ATM
21 withdrawal. His name was on those transactions, the checks
22 and the wire transfers, but there's not any evidence that
23 Andre Gaines got a single dime to himself from the PPP fraud.
24 And if you were looking at the original indictment
25 that was returned in August of 2020, the very interesting
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1 thing about it is that John Gaines isn't in it, and that's
2 because Andre Gaines was the name that John Gaines used to
3 hide the fact that he was involved.
4 When we brought the original indictment in August
5 of 2020, in part because of the lies that Andre Gaines told,
6 and in part because of the lies that Carla Jackson told about
7 who was involved, we at that point didn't know yet or didn't
8 have the evidence to prove that it was actually John Gaines
9 behind the scenes pulling the strings of everything.
10 So, yes, Andre Gaines was charged in those
11 transactions because his name was the one on the check and
12 the one on the wire transfer, but the evidence at trial showed
13 that John Gaines was the one working with Darrell Thomas, John
14 Gaines was the one accessing the bank account, John Gaines was
15 the one telling who where money needed to go.
16 And so to the extent Andre Gaines was a participant
17 in the money laundering, the evidence shows that his role was
18 that John Gaines put a check in front of him and told him what
19 to write, or maybe even just told him to sign his name, and
20 then John Gaines filled in the information, or that John
21 Gaines drove him to the bank to make a wire transfer. There
22 is no evidence that Andre Gaines knew anything about what was
23 happening in the payments in the Gaines Reservation & Travel
24 account beyond the fact that his name is on there.
25 So if we're comparing Ms. Jackson's role to the role
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1 of John Gaines and Andre Gaines, she is far more culpable than
2 Andre Gaines, which alone makes a minimal role or a minor role
3 adjustment inappropriate.
4 As far as the factors, your Honor, again, I think
5 most of Mr. Marshall's arguments blur what the criminal
6 activity is that we're talking about here. We would be in a
7 very different situation if Ms. Jackson had been held
8 accountable for the entire PPP loan fraud that Gaines
9 Reservation & Travel committed.
10 And just to give the Court a counter example from
11 this case, your Honor, with Aleem Rashid, who the Court may
12 remember, the Court sentenced him quite a while back, he got
13 his own loan. It was a small loan of around 100-and-something
14 thousand dollars for his business, but he also helped Darrell
15 Thomas by recruiting employees for the Bellator Phront Group
16 loan. And he agreed to accept responsibility for the entire
17 Bellator Phront Group loan of around $800,000, even though all
18 he had done was recruit a couple of people to serve as fake
19 employees. And in that case we agreed to a minor role
20 reduction because as compared to the conduct for which he was
21 held accountable he was a minor participant.
22 And that's not what we have here. Ms. Jackson has
23 not been held accountable for $806,000 PPP loan. She's only
24 been held accountable for actual money laundering that she
25 participated in. And as to that conduct, it doesn't matter if
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1 she didn't see e-mails about how the PPP loan was obtained or
2 why they were trying to hide the PPP loan money. What matters
3 is that she knew that money was coming into her account that
4 was being described as being for consulting fees, for payroll,
5 for daily business management. She knew that those purposes
6 were wrong, were false.
7 She knew that John Gaines was doing PPP loan money.
8 And when she was asked what the payments were for, she said
9 they were for payroll, which showed that she understood the
10 scope, she understood the structure, she understood the reason
11 why these payments are being made is because it's made to look
12 like it's for payroll and if somebody asks me about it, I need
13 to say it's for payroll, because that's what the PPP
14 authorizes you to make payments for. And I think that that
15 alone is very telling in the fact that she understood exactly
16 what was going on. She said this was for payroll when she was
17 asked about it. Again, I think there's factors that don't
18 really weigh either way.
19 The second one that -- the degree to which she
20 participated in the planning or organization, we agree that
21 she did not plan or organize this. We agree that John Gaines
22 is the one who brought her into this and that's why we have
23 argued and will argue next week that John Gaines is a manager
24 or supervisor and should get a three-level aggravating role
25 adjustment, but I don't think it particularly weighs in favor
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1 of a minimal role reduction here.
2 As far as decision-making authority and nature and
3 extent of participation, again, I think the evidence shows
4 that Ms. Jackson made the decision to allow John Gaines to do
5 this knowing what he was going to do. And I think the fact
6 that she allowed him to do it a second time is, again, very
7 telling, because after the first time that she got the checks
8 that said this is for daily business management and consulting
9 fees, John Gaines then asked her to make payments to pay off
10 his auto loans. And then after that, he asked her for her
11 banking information so that he could make another wire
12 transfer. And she gave it to him. And she didn't have to.
13 And at that point she knew full well -- even if she had some
14 tiny little bit of hope that maybe he wasn't actually just
15 trying to hide PPP funds, at that point she knew full well he
16 is using my account to funnel money out of his own account
17 because he's trying to hide it, he's trying to make it look
18 like something it's not, and she let him do it. And he
19 couldn't have done it without her.
20 And at that point, your Honor, she was not married to
21 him anymore. She was not falsely believing that he would not
22 lead her astray. She knew at that point that she couldn't
23 trust him, and she made the decision to help him in this way.
24 I think that shows that she did exercise decision-making
25 authority and that the nature and extent of her participation
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1 does not make her a minor participant.
2 And, again, the degree to which she stood to benefit,
3 your Honor, again, I agree this is an area that we don't know
4 because luckily the government was able to seize these funds
5 very, very quickly before anybody was able to spend them.
6 But, again, this is an issue on which Ms. Jackson bears the
7 burden. Ms. Jackson I don't think has met her burden of
8 proving that this factor somehow weighs in favor of a minor
9 role reduction where there's just unclear information about
10 it.
11 So for all those reasons, we would ask the Court to
12 deny a minor role reduction.
13 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Marshall, your motion, so
14 I'll give you the last word.
15 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, I think -- just a comment -- a
16 quick comment about Andre Gaines again, Judge. I think part
17 of this will be discussed, I think, in the obstruction
18 enhancement, but it's this reliance on Andre Gaines being the
19 least involved in this. And then I believe the government
20 mentioned about his cognitive issues and he's disabled and so
21 forth. Your Honor, I think when we go to the obstruction I'm
22 going to discuss this declaration that's mentioned by
23 Mr. Gaines.
24 If you'll recall, Judge, Andre Gaines, it was his
25 company, a fraudulent loan application and all, he had already
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1 been sentenced, he was never called in by the government to
2 testify. That's their choice, but he could have come in and
3 cleared up all of these things about people's roles and what
4 he did, what he didn't do, what he knew about Ms. Jackson, if
5 he had communications with her, things of that nature.
6 So everything is coming in in a sense on the back of
7 John Gaines, who the government doesn't want anyone to believe
8 generally, but then they pick and select which parts they want
9 the Court to believe, but I just want to remind the Court that
10 Andre Gaines never testified.
11 And his testimony, even later, will come in through
12 this declaration, which I will go into a little bit more then,
13 Judge. But all of the statements in this, none of this has
14 been corroborated. He's not here to testify. It's just
15 inferences and beliefs about him stemming from the fact that
16 he has some physical and possibly some mental issues. But if
17 you read the declaration, this sure doesn't sound like
18 something that's drafted by someone that has any kind of
19 cognitive disability whatsoever. But we'll get into that a
20 little more on the obstruction enhancement, Judge.
21 Again, we don't have any information from Andre
22 Gaines. It was his company. I think the pecking order, if
23 anything, is probably John Gaines, number one, Andre Gaines,
24 and then Ms. Jackson. And I think that hierarchy should give
25 the Court some consideration to consider a two-point
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1 reduction, Judge.
2 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
3 I'm going to deny that motion. I don't think the
4 defense has met its burden to show that Ms. Jackson's entitled
5 to a mitigating role reduction here. I'll say that, at least
6 in the papers and in part of the argument, it did seem like
7 the defense was trying to look at not just the narrow money
8 laundering but to look at the greater PPP fraud scheme.
9 Clearly that argument's foreclosed by the Salgado case, 745
10 F.3d 1135, as noted in the government brief, Document 994.
11 As to the consideration of the factors when I do
12 narrow in on just the money laundering, I agree with the
13 defense that as to factor B, the degree to which Jackson
14 participated in planning or organizing the criminal activity,
15 that factor weighs in favor of a mitigating role.
16 As to factor E, the degree to which Jackson stood to
17 benefit from the criminal activity, I think that one's
18 neutral, I would say, because we don't know much about what
19 was going to happen with the money that went into her account.
20 But I think the other factors generally work against the
21 defense.
22 As far as the degree to which Jackson understood the
23 scope and structure of the criminal activity, again, if we
24 look at the money laundering, she did, and the jury found that
25 she did, know about the scope and structure of the criminal
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1 activity. She participated in these financial transactions.
2 She received these funds. And as noted by the government, she
3 got the second set of funds after receiving the first and
4 communications about what was to be done with those.
5 As to factor C, degree to which she exercised
6 decision-making authority or influenced the exercise of
7 decision-making authority, I think that one is not a slam dunk
8 for the government but weighs against the mitigating role. I
9 agree that Mr. John Gaines was more involved in that
10 decision-making authority and influencing and exercising the
11 decision-making authority because he was the one looking for a
12 place to launder these funds and a place to move them;
13 however, it took Ms. Jackson and her willingness to accept
14 these funds to actually execute that. She had to decide to
15 allow those funds to be deposited into her account on multiple
16 occasions.
17 And D is similar, similar logic there. Again, not a
18 slam dunk for the government, but I think it weighs in favor.
19 So all in all, I just don't think the defense has met
20 its burden to show that she's entitled to mitigating role here
21 as to the money laundering.
22 The next issue is the obstruction. And that's the
23 government's motion, so I'll hear from the government first.
24 MS. CHAIKEN: Thank you, your Honor.
25 The government's request for an obstruction of
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1 justice enhancement is based on Ms. Jackson's grand jury
2 subpoena response. Ms. Jackson attempted to obstruct the
3 investigation by giving false information to the grand jury
4 and withholding records from the grand jury.
5 As the Court knows, the grand jury relies on subpoena
6 recipients to tell the truth and provide complete records so
7 that the grand jury can do its work and do it accurately.
8 Here the grand jury subpoena asked Ms. Jackson on behalf of
9 Management Resource Services to produce communications with
10 Gaines Reservation & Travel. And she said she drafted a cover
11 letter, which she signed, in which she wrote, All
12 communications were in person with Andre Gaines/Gaines
13 Reservation & Travel.
14 She did not mention John Gaines. She did not produce
15 her text messages with John Gaines, which she then admitted at
16 trial, so we know she had them then because she still had them
17 four years later. She did not say that she had communications
18 with John Gaines.
19 And even though it's just one line in her grand jury
20 subpoena, it's a very, very important one because it had the
21 effect of concealing that John Gaines had any role in what
22 happened with Gaines Reservation & Travel's PPP loan funds.
23 There's no doubt that Ms. Jackson willfully omitted
24 John Gaines from her response there because it's consistent
25 with what happened a few weeks earlier when the FBI
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1 interviewed her.
2 At that interview when she was asked who she
3 communicated with at Gaines Reservation & Travel, she
4 struggled and paused and pretended not to remember. And then
5 she said, Andre Gaines. And when the agent asked her how she
6 knew Andre Gaines, she said a contractor referred her to Andre
7 Gaines. She did not mention John Gaines even once, even
8 though now, as we're hearing from her and as the evidence at
9 trial showed, he was the mastermind of the money laundering.
10 He was instrumental in it. He was the one telling her what to
11 do, telling her the money was going to come, telling her to
12 expect these payments from Gaines Reservation & Travel. But
13 the information that she gave to the grand jury concealed that
14 and concealed the records and the communications that the
15 grand jury was entitled to have in order to do its work.
16 And, your Honor, even though attempted obstruction
17 is enough, here you can see by the indictment that it did
18 obstruct the investigation, at least for a time, because when
19 that first indictment was returned, John Gaines wasn't on it.
20 At that time the grand jury did not know the role that John
21 Gaines played. And that was because Ms. Jackson concealed
22 from the grand jury and affirmatively lied to the grand jury
23 when she said I had in-person communications with Andre
24 Gaines. That was not true.
25 First of all, there's no evidence she had any
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1 in-person communication with Andre Gaines ever, but she
2 certainly had text communications with John Gaines, in-person
3 communications with John Gaines and other communications with
4 John Gaines, none of which was disclosed to the grand jury
5 either in the cover letter or in terms of producing the actual
6 documents.
7 And I would just say, your Honor, Mr. Marshall raised
8 Andre Gaines. We are not relying on Andre Gaines or any
9 testimony or anything that he is saying for this obstruction
10 enhancement. The Court can look at the cover letter itself
11 and at the grand jury subpoena response itself, which was
12 attached to our sentencing memorandum, to see what Ms. Jackson
13 sent to the grand jury. She sent it to the grand jury from
14 her own e-mail. She signed it in a signature that the Court
15 saw multiple times across multiple documents at trial, that
16 was her signature.
17 And to the extent that we also mentioned the fact
18 that Andre Gaines's grand jury subpoena response was nearly
19 identical, at least as far as the cover letter goes, and Andre
20 Gaines had said in his declaration Ms. Jackson drafted that, I
21 think that's clear from the face of -- looking at the letters
22 that they were both drafted by the same person. They both
23 followed the exact same format, they have the exact same font
24 and spacing, they both accidentally label requests A through I
25 instead of A through H, which was in the request. It's very
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1 clear that they were drafted by the same person. And,
2 frankly, for purposes of the obstruction enhancement, it
3 doesn't matter who drafted them because Carla Jackson is the
4 one who went into her e-mail, took that document and sent it
5 to the grand jury knowing that there was false information in
6 there that would mislead the grand jury into believing that
7 John Gaines was not involved in this offense.
8 And, again, your Honor, just to respond to something
9 Mr. Marshall raised both at trial and in the sentencing
10 memorandum, there's this allegation about missing information
11 in the grand jury subpoena return or the grand jury subpoena.
12 I'm not sure exactly what the claim is, but there's no doubt
13 from the cover letter that Ms. Jackson knew she was being
14 asked for communications with Gaines Reservation & Travel
15 because she said, I had in-person conversations with Andre
16 Gaines.
17 So there was no missing instruction about -- you
18 know, that could explain why she mentioned Andre Gaines and
19 not John Gaines, and why she did not say that there were also
20 written communications that she was withholding from the grand
21 jury.
22 For those reasons, we think an obstruction of justice
23 enhancement is warranted.
24 THE COURT: Thank you.
25 Mr. Marshall?
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1 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, I have a few things I want to
2 go through on this, but I want to start with the guideline
3 3C1.1, and I want to go to the factors and point out to the
4 Court the government's not made any reference at all to what
5 part of the guidelines supports this, but I will, not that it
6 supports it but what isn't shown by the government's
7 testimony.
8 So in the notes, your Honor, the commentary and the
9 application notes, the Sentencing Commission gives examples of
10 covered conduct which would make something eligible for an
11 obstruction enhancement, and that is basically A through K.
12 They list multiple types of activities that could constitute
13 obstruction under this guideline.
14 And then under application note five there are
15 further examples of conduct ordinarily not covered and there
16 is a list of those. And that goes from A through E. I just
17 want to start a little bit with A through E.
18 The one that would come anywhere near close to what
19 the government is arguing as far as a false -- as far as
20 obstruction would be part B as something that would not be
21 covered. And that is this, it says, Making false statements
22 not under oath to law enforcement officers unless application
23 note 4(g) applies. And I'm going to go back to that in a
24 second and we'll get there.
25 So if you have somebody at the door and they happen
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1 to make a statement, they provide a false statement to a law
2 enforcement officer or an FBI agent, that doesn't
3 automatically qualify someone for an enhancement. That's
4 clear because that's considered --
5 THE COURT: One second, Mr. Marshall.
6 MR. MARSHALL: -- part of the conduct.
7 Were you going to ask me something, Judge?
8 THE COURT: I said one second.
9 Go ahead.
10 MR. MARSHALL: So that is application note five,
11 examples of conduct ordinarily not covered. But it does make
12 a reference in that section that regards false statements to
13 4(g). So let's go to 4(g).
14 Application note 4(g), examples of covered conduct.
15 They list multiple examples. And the one that's most, I
16 guess, applicable here that the government has to bear, they
17 bear the burden on this, Judge, someone providing a
18 materially -- and that's important -- materially false
19 statement to a law enforcement officer that significantly
20 obstructed or impeded the official investigation or
21 prosecution of the instant offense.
22 I'm going to go into the subpoena return and all that
23 individually. I'll do that separately, Judge, but let's talk
24 about that just for a second.
25 I'm going to cite to United States v. Mason. This is
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1 a F.App'x case, 168 F.App'x 905. It's a 2006 case, an
2 Eleventh Circuit case. And in this case the Court lays out --
3 it addresses the issue of the obstruction enhancement in
4 C31.1. And there's a requirement on the district court about
5 how it has to look at this enhancement and whether to apply it
6 or not.
7 When the district court applies the obstruction of
8 justice enhancement, quote, it should note specifically what
9 each defendant did, why that conduct warrants the enhancement,
10 and, if applicable, how that conduct actually hindered the
11 investigation or prosecution of the offense.
12 In this particular case, this Mason case that I just
13 cited, Judge, there was an argument from the government that
14 Mason provided a false police report and it delayed the
15 investigation and prosecution by several months. And the
16 appellate court says the district court provided no further
17 explanation.
18 A court must provide a specific explanation for the
19 enhancement of a sentence based on a false statement to a law
20 enforcement officer. The district court did not explain how
21 Mason's conduct actually caused a delay in either the
22 prosecution or investigation. The record also does not reveal
23 how, if at all, Mason's action delayed the investigation. So
24 let's go into this a little bit again.
25 In the government's memo, Judge, the government
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1 asserts that because of the statements made by Ms. Jackson at
2 the door when Agent Stites visited her, and in her response to
3 the subpoena, that that caused a delay -- I think in their
4 memorandum said a year delay. It's on page nine. It
5 basically said, During that interview, she did not mention
6 John Gaines to the FBI even once despite the now known fact
7 that he was central to the matters the FBI asked her about.
8 And they talk about the subpoena response. And it
9 says, John Gaines was not indicted until nearly a year after
10 Jackson, thus an obstruction enhancement should apply.
11 Let's look at that a little bit. We've marked
12 Defendant's Exhibit 1, Judge, is a portion of a transcript,
13 it's the unofficial transcript but it's from the February 8th
14 trial date and it's the cross-examination of FBI Agent Stites
15 and on our page --
16 THE COURT: Sorry. You're referencing a document I
17 don't have.
18 MR. MARSHALL: Right. I'm going to give it to you,
19 Judge.
20 THE COURT: It may be helpful -- maybe you should
21 give it to me before you start reading from it, if you're
22 planning to give it to me.
23 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, I would tender that into
24 evidence now.
25 MS. CHAIKEN: No objection, your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: It's admitted.
2 MR. MARSHALL: If the Court can just review that
3 page.
4 THE COURT: There's two pages.
5 MR. MARSHALL: I think it's 221, Judge, there's some
6 questions about the first interview that was done. And John
7 Gaines I think is mentioned.
8 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
9 MR. MARSHALL: So, Judge, in my questions to Agent
10 Stites in cross-examination, I asked him -- I think, in your
11 review of the document, Judge, this is during the first
12 interview. The first interview that occurred, the
13 knock-and-talk at my client's house, was on July 7th, 2020.
14 That interview recording was introduced into evidence.
15 By the way, Agent Stites never asks Ms. Jackson at
16 all, doesn't mention the name "John Gaines" at all one time.
17 But in that testimony there it says that John Gaines was on
18 their radar already. The government knew about John Gaines.
19 When they went up and knocked on her door on July 7th, 2020,
20 he was already on their radar. So I'm pulling this into this
21 issue about whether this was a significant delay of the
22 investigation because that's what goes to 4(g) and to the
23 overall enhancement. So they already know about him.
24 And to put this in context, know, Judge, that the
25 subpoena that they give to Ms. Jackson -- you have a copy of
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1 that in the sentencing memorandum -- doesn't make mention of
2 John Gaines anywhere. It makes no mention whatsoever. So I'm
3 going to go up to that, and we're going to go to that in a
4 second.
5 So the government does know about John Gaines. They
6 already knew that he must have been involved with either
7 Darrell Thomas or with Andre Gaines. So this argument that
8 somehow Ms. Jackson not mentioning John Gaines on July 7th,
9 2020, is just incorrect. He was already on their radar. They
10 were already investigating who he was.
11 Let's go to the subpoena response. And there are
12 missing pages from this document. And I'll just refer,
13 there's an exhibit with this attached to the government's
14 memorandum, so I don't need to introduce another exhibit.
15 It's Document Number 994 and it's Exhibit, I think, -1. And
16 this would be Ms. Jackson's return. It's several pages, the
17 subpoena return. And then it goes into the specific
18 production requests. And the production requests I would
19 refer the Court to start at Roman Numeral V and go on from
20 pages five through six. And let's look at exactly what was
21 asked of Ms. Jackson in this subpoena request.
22 So H is referenced in that cover letter, maybe
23 labeled as I. All communications with the following
24 individuals and/or entities. I don't see John Gaines there
25 anywhere. There is a reference to Andre Gaines, and there's a
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1 reference to Gaines Reservation & Travel. John Gaines is not
2 a founder or a co-owner of Gaines Reservation & Travel. Andre
3 Gaines owns that company. John Gaines's name was not on the
4 subpoena request, even though, according to Agent Stites, he
5 was already on their radar.
6 THE COURT: So is the defense argument that although
7 we know John Gaines was communicating with Ms. Jackson and
8 depositing funds from Gaines Reservation & Travel to
9 Ms. Jackson, is the argument that she shouldn't have
10 interpreted that to include John Gaines --
11 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, I'm going strictly by the
12 subpoena.
13 THE COURT: I'm just clarifying if that's your
14 argument.
15 MR. MARSHALL: My argument is what's on the subpoena.
16 THE COURT: That's a loser argument. Move on.
17 MR. MARSHALL: All right. That's not asked of Andre
18 Gaines, she doesn't answer it.
19 In her first interview, Judge, she is not asked
20 anything about John Gaines. She is asked about Andre. She's
21 asked questions about Gaines Reservation & Travel. And she's
22 asked about anyone she had contact with. I forget the exact
23 phrase, it's in the record. But Andre Gaines was the person
24 that was discussed by Agent Stites.
25 And I point that out, Judge, because there was a
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1 second interview done. The first one was done on July 7th,
2 2020. The second one was done on July 27th, 2020. And this
3 is 20 days later. And they -- Agent Stites comes over again
4 with I think it was Agent Cromer and comes over specifically
5 to the same residence, to Ms. Jackson's house, looking for
6 John Gaines, they want to specifically talk to him. He's not
7 there at the time. So they've gone over there, they want to
8 see him and talk to him on that date.
9 She mentions and answers all of his questions. When
10 they ask for him specifically, she says he's not here, he does
11 stay here occasionally but he's not here now. She's not
12 untruthful at all. The first interview she was never asked
13 anything about this, Judge, so I would point that out.
14 Now, as far as the subpoena and the cover letter
15 being identical, again, Judge, I'm going to go back to Andre
16 Gaines. He is not here.
17 THE COURT: Couldn't you have called him here?
18 MR. MARSHALL: Well, for this, it's not my -- this is
19 the government's burden, Judge.
20 THE COURT: I understand it's the government's
21 burden. The government is making its argument, but couldn't
22 you have brought him here and said your declaration is a lie?
23 MR. MARSHALL: Well, Judge, it's not my burden to do
24 that, and why would I need to do that? I mean, it's not my
25 burden, Judge, to do that. I would have figured the
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1 government would have done that in trial --
2 THE COURT: Well, the government is meeting its
3 burden with the declaration, so wouldn't you want to combat
4 the declaration by bringing him in and cross-examining him?
5 MR. MARSHALL: Does the Court believe they met the
6 burden with the declaration?
7 THE COURT: No.
8 MR. MARSHALL: Okay. All right. I will say this
9 about the declaration, Judge, if I can back up.
10 THE COURT: I'm just saying, I mean, it's odd for you
11 to say they could have brought him here given the rules of a
12 sentencing. If you don't like the declaration and want to
13 combat it, I would think that you would want to bring him here
14 to cross-examine him to show that the government hasn't met
15 its burden.
16 MR. MARSHALL: Well, Judge, sometimes a defense
17 attorney wants to do this. Other times they just want to say,
18 you know what, this is improperly admitted evidence because of
19 hearsay and because of what I cite in my memorandum, and
20 that's that you can't rely on hearsay evidence during a
21 sentencing hearing so long as -- you can so long as the
22 evidence has sufficient indicia of reliability to support its
23 probable accuracy.
24 THE COURT: Do you think it has any reliability given
25 that the two letters are obviously written by the same person,
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1 the responsive letters?
2 MR. MARSHALL: We don't know who that is. And one of
3 them is signed by Andre Gaines.
4 THE COURT: I understand we don't know who the person
5 is that wrote both of the letters, but would you agree that
6 the same person wrote both of those letters?
7 MR. MARSHALL: They look similar. They do look
8 similar.
9 THE COURT: So you won't agree that the same person
10 wrote both of those letters?
11 MR. MARSHALL: What I would say, Judge, is Andre
12 Gaines signed one of them. And Carla Jackson signed another
13 one. I think that's what both of the documents show to the
14 Court.
15 THE COURT: You'll go only so far as they look
16 similar?
17 MR. MARSHALL: They do look similar. They're not
18 signed by the same person, they're signed by different
19 individuals.
20 Now, if you go by the government when they're making
21 their references in their memorandum that according to Andre
22 Gaines's declaration hearsay statements, that he didn't sign
23 these, that these were prepared and he had other people
24 prepare this document, or he had Carla Jackson do it or John
25 Gaines had Carla Jackson do it, we still don't have him here
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1 to support the government's argument or to support any of the
2 statements in the declaration. And it's not my obligation to
3 bring in Andre Gaines when I'm challenging a declaration that
4 the government is relying on as hearsay in a sentencing
5 hearing. That would be my argument, Judge. I don't have to
6 bring in Andre Gaines if I think this is improper for --
7 THE COURT: I didn't say you had to. My statement
8 was that your argument would be stronger if you had.
9 MR. MARSHALL: Right. And the government's would
10 have been stronger also if they had brought him in here and
11 said did you have any communication with Ms. Jackson.
12 THE COURT: Agreed. Agreed.
13 MR. MARSHALL: The last argument I would say on that,
14 I don't think the Court can rely on anything that's in the
15 declaration that the government cites to because he is not
16 here. He is --
17 THE COURT: I'm not persuaded by a lot of what you've
18 said, but talk to me about the significant obstruction. I
19 think that's what I would like to hear more from you about and
20 more from the government about.
21 I understand that you've shown me part of the
22 transcript where the agent was already aware of John Gaines
23 when he first interviewed Ms. Jackson, but talk to me about
24 how I would define "significant" or how this was or wasn't
25 significant.
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1 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, that's not my burden. So the
2 government needs to put up a witness, like Agent Stites, and
3 talk --
4 THE COURT: Mr. Marshall, you're misunderstanding me.
5 I'm not -- by asking you that question I'm not misconstruing
6 the standard or whose burden it is. I know well whose burden
7 it is, Mr. Marshall. What I'm trying to get to is whether or
8 not it indeed was significant. I'm asking you, as the defense
9 attorney here -- presumably you think it wasn't significant,
10 and so I'm asking you why it wasn't significant. Please have
11 no fear that I'm not confused about the burden.
12 If you have an answer to my question, you can give
13 it. If you don't want to give me an answer, I'll hear from
14 just the government.
15 MR. MARSHALL: Because I know of no evidence that
16 shows it significantly delayed it. That's all I can say,
17 Judge. We know that Agent Stites knew about John Gaines when
18 he went to deliver the first subpoena on July 7th, 2020, and
19 he knew him -- well, obviously probably before that date.
20 So unless -- like I said, I don't have any evidence
21 that the government's investigation was impeded by
22 Ms. Jackson's knock-and-talk on July 7th, 2020, or her
23 responses in not mentioning John Gaines when the government
24 already knew about who John Gaines was.
25 THE COURT: So if I understood your argument it's
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1 that you don't know whether it was significant or not?
2 MR. MARSHALL: I don't. And I wouldn't know that
3 unless Agent Stites got up here.
4 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Chaiken, let me hear from
5 the government on that.
6 MS. CHAIKEN: Thank you, your Honor. A few points on
7 this.
8 THE COURT: Please answer that question first.
9 MS. CHAIKEN: Yes, your Honor. So we're not relying
10 on subsection (g) to the commentary, we are relying on
11 subsection (c), which is producing or attempting to produce a
12 false document or record during an official investigation,
13 which is what happened here with the false letter that
14 contained false information in response to the grand jury
15 subpoena. And the Court imposed an obstruction of justice
16 enhancement on Darrell Thomas and on Gina Pyfrom Foster on the
17 same basis, of producing a false document to the grand jury.
18 I would note also, your Honor, that the guideline
19 itself --
20 THE COURT: So is the argument, then, that
21 Mr. Marshall was taking me down a rabbit hole that you don't
22 think you need to go down?
23 MS. CHAIKEN: Yes, correct, your Honor, I --
24 THE COURT: As to 4(g)?
25 MS. CHAIKEN: Yes, your Honor. 4(g) relates to false
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1 statements to law enforcement officers in interviews. And as
2 the Court knows in this case we have not argued for
3 obstruction for any defendant based on lies that they have
4 told to law enforcement, even though many of the defendants in
5 this case have lied to law enforcement. And when I stood up
6 and made my argument just a few moments ago, I said, your
7 Honor, we are relying on the false response to the grand jury
8 subpoena.
9 I do think, your Honor, that Ms. Jackson's lies here
10 did more significantly obstruct the investigation in ways that
11 some other defendants' interviews did not. But, again, we
12 have not relied on that. We have relied on (c) because of the
13 response to the grand jury subpoena. And the guideline itself
14 also refers to attempted to obstruct or impede. So even
15 under -- under (c), even if there was no significant impact on
16 the investigation, that still would be sufficient.
17 Just to address what Mr. Marshall said about our
18 knowledge of John Gaines, yes, your Honor, we did know that
19 John Gaines existed. And, you know, without revealing too
20 much about the course of the investigation, at the time -- at
21 that time shortly before the indictment we knew that John
22 Gaines knew Darrell Thomas. We knew that John Gaines was
23 somehow related to Andre Gaines in that he was on the bank
24 accounts for Gaines Reservation & Travel. And we knew that
25 John Gaines had been married to Carla Jackson. So we were
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1 highly suspicious that John Gaines was somehow involved and
2 was the person who connected all people around the PPP loans,
3 but we did not have evidence at that point to support that
4 beyond the circumstantial evidence to his connection to all of
5 the people that were involved. And that was part of why we
6 went out and we did interviews and we sent out subpoenas
7 because we wanted to collect the information to be able to
8 make a determination about whether he was involved or about
9 whether he introduced all these people who did something
10 without his knowledge.
11 The fact that somebody is connected to people who are
12 involved in a crime does not mean they were involved in a
13 crime. And we cannot bring an indictment against someone
14 because they used to be married to someone who got money into
15 their account without evidence proving their knowledge, their
16 intent, whatever is necessary for what we're charging.
17 THE COURT: Let me ask you another question.
18 MS. CHAIKEN: Yes.
19 THE COURT: So it sounds like 4(g), which
20 Mr. Marshall and I went back and forth on, is inconsequential.
21 We also went back and forth a bit about Mr. Andre Gaines. Is
22 he important to your motion?
23 MS. CHAIKEN: No, your Honor. As I said in my
24 opening remarks, we're not relying on Andre Gaines or his
25 declaration. It doesn't matter who drafted the grand jury
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1 subpoena response. What matters is that Ms. Jackson signed
2 and e-mailed to the grand jury a document she knew was false
3 and that she knew omitted communications between her and
4 Gaines Reservation & Travel. And to this day we still don't
5 know what communications she had in full with Gaines
6 Reservation & Travel related to these payments because all she
7 admitted at trial is one excerpt that she chose to show the
8 jury.
9 But, you know, the fact that Andre Gaines said she
10 drafted both is really not consequential. What is
11 consequential is that she knowingly sent to the grand jury a
12 document that she knew was false.
13 THE COURT: All right. Just so I can get to the
14 bottom of how the Gaines -- Andre Gaines's declaration was
15 even entered into this discussion, then, you objected to the
16 PSR because it didn't contain this obstruction enhancement.
17 And did you submit the Gaines's declaration or did the
18 defense?
19 MS. CHAIKEN: We submitted it, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Okay. When did you submit it and in
21 which document or which filing?
22 MS. CHAIKEN: I believe that it was with our
23 objections.
24 Officer Ridley, is that -- no?
25 THE COURT: I'm just confused about the Andre
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1 Gaines's declaration because Mr. Marshall will stand up and
2 say, ah-ha, the government hasn't produced them, all they have
3 is a declaration. And I asked him, well, you could have
4 called him, too. He took offense to that.
5 I'm trying to get to the bottom about who introduced
6 the Gaines's declaration first and where is it?
7 MS. CHAIKEN: Your Honor, I'm not sure if the
8 Gaines's declaration was given to Officer Ridley in connection
9 with another defendant, or when it was given to her. I'm
10 certain I gave it to her at some point. At least I assume I
11 did.
12 So it looks like I gave it with my objections. And
13 it's a detail, your Honor, and it is something that we
14 provided. And after seeing the attack on even the
15 consideration of the declaration, you know, we realized we
16 were not -- the heart of our request for the obstruction
17 enhancement was not dependent on that. I do think it's an
18 additional thing that the Court can look at.
19 And, again, I think it's clear from the face of both
20 responses that the same person drafted both letters.
21 THE COURT: All right. The issue is, and as I'm --
22 you noted that you included the declaration in your objections
23 to the PSR. I have -- in the PSR I've been given, I have page
24 34 is objections by the government and the defense. And then
25 attached to that is a two-page letter from the government and
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1 a three-page letter from Mr. Marshall on behalf of
2 Ms. Jackson, but it's not attached there.
3 MS. CHAIKEN: Your Honor, Mr. Marshall showed me what
4 I believe is my original letter that I submitted with the
5 objections. That did look to have that attachment, the
6 declaration as an attachment. So it looks like that was not
7 appended into the PSR.
8 THE COURT: Okay. So I don't have it. I've been
9 reading about this declaration and whether or not it's
10 important or not important and who should have called who, but
11 nobody's ever actually -- and maybe it came in somehow in the
12 trial as an exhibit or something, but I don't think it's been
13 marked and I don't think it's in the record for this.
14 Is it in the record anywhere that anyone knows of?
15 MR. MARSHALL: No, your Honor, it wouldn't have been.
16 It would have been hearsay during trial, it wouldn't have come
17 in. I have it.
18 THE COURT: The point is I haven't even seen it yet
19 because I don't think anyone's submitted it. And it may have
20 been that everyone assumed that anything attached to your
21 letters would have made the PSR, but I don't think -- Officer,
22 it's not in the PSR, is it?
23 OFFICER RIDLEY: No, your Honor. It appears it was
24 left off of the final PSR.
25 MS. CHAIKEN: We're happy to make it a part of the
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1 record, your Honor. I can e-mail a copy to Ms. Lee after this
2 hearing or --
3 THE COURT: Since we've now spent 20 minutes talking
4 about it, I would like to actually see it.
5 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, I have marked this as
6 Defendant's Exhibit 3, as being possibly introduced. I do
7 have this if the Court wants to look at it.
8 I tender this as Defendant's Exhibit 3 to the Court.
9 THE COURT: No objection, government?
10 MS. CHAIKEN: No, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: All right. It's admitted.
12 Give me a minute.
13 (Pause in the proceedings.)
14 THE COURT: All right. I've now reviewed the
15 declaration of Andre Lee Gaines, Defense Exhibit 3. And I
16 guess -- as I try to climb out of this rabbit hole, I guess I
17 just need to know, you know, again, Ms. Chaiken, Mr. Marshall
18 said the Gaines's declaration is bonk, and so I need to know
19 whether or not you want me to consider the Gaines's
20 declaration or not. I mean, the part of it that's relevant
21 here is -- the part of it that's -- well, probably more than
22 that, but the primary part that's relevant is he says that
23 Carla Jackson wrote his responsive letter for the subpoena.
24 Do you want that evidence in or not?
25 MS. CHAIKEN: Your Honor, we're not relying on that
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1 evidence. I would point the Court to page nine of our
2 sentencing memo where we said, Ms. Jackson argues that the
3 United States request for an obstruction of justice
4 enhancement is premised on Andre Gaines and that the Court
5 should require Andre Gaines to testify before imposing an
6 enhancement.
7 Not so. Jackson's attempts to obstruct and impede
8 the investigation are evident from the face of her letter to
9 the grand jury, the materials omitted from her grand jury
10 subpoena response, and the contrary evidence presented at
11 trial.
12 While Andre Gaines's declaration establishes that
13 Jackson drafted Management Resource's and Gaines Reservation's
14 letters, Jackson's apparent challenge to that assertion is
15 immaterial because it is evident from the letters themselves
16 that the same person drafted both letters.
17 In addition, Jackson produced her grand jury subpoena
18 response from her personal e-mail address and with her
19 signature. To the extent she did not draft her letter, she
20 still signed and submitted it to the grand jury knowing it
21 contained falsehoods and concealed information and documents.
22 So I think it was clear before today and, again, we
23 reiterate we're not relying on anything Andre Gaines said to
24 establish the obstruction enhancement.
25 THE COURT: All right.
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1 Mr. Marshall, do you want me to consider the Gaines's
2 declaration?
3 MR. MARSHALL: No, your Honor, just as long -- if the
4 government's position is they're not relying at all on it,
5 then that's what concerned me because there were references to
6 it in their sentencing memorandum, that's what I was objecting
7 to, Judge, is when they made references to his declaration,
8 so...
9 THE COURT: Well, I think Ms. Chaiken's now clarified
10 if it wasn't clear before -- and I'm not sure it was based on
11 the papers, she's now clarified in their argument that they're
12 not relying on it. You don't want me to rely on it either, so
13 I won't consider the Gaines's declaration.
14 MS. CHAIKEN: Unless the Court has further
15 questions --
16 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
17 MS. CHAIKEN: Thank you.
18 THE COURT: So, Mr. Marshall -- and, Ms. Chaiken,
19 it's your motion, I will give you the last word.
20 Mr. Marshall, we went back and forth about some
21 portions of 5(g), and I think my question might have offended
22 you somehow, but I was actually curious about "significant,"
23 and I thought that might be your potential winner, that's why
24 I was asking you about it. But now it sounds like the
25 government is saying it doesn't matter if it was significantly
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1 obstructed or not because we're not relying on 5(g) -- or
2 4(g), we're relying on 4(c). What do you say to that?
3 MR. MARSHALL: Well, Judge, it's not laid out in the
4 government's memorandum which part of -- they make no
5 reference to the application notes and what they're relying
6 on. On that, Judge, I would say that I think that that
7 probably addresses more things like where there's an actual --
8 as it says, like a counterfeit document, some type of altered
9 document, a false document, I would still fall back, Judge, on
10 her position that based on the subpoena that Ms. Jackson got,
11 she answered the questions to the best of her ability. If
12 there had been a question about John Gaines specifically in
13 there, because they knew about John Gaines, that she would
14 have answered and provided documents if she needed to about
15 that. That's what I would say about that, Judge.
16 This is not an altered document, it's not a
17 counterfeit document. And I think the only falsehood is that
18 there was -- the government is alleging is that there's
19 essentially information that was left out about John Gaines.
20 And our position would be, Judge, they didn't ask about John
21 Gaines, and he was not a founder of Gaines Reservation &
22 Travel.
23 THE COURT: Ms. Chaiken, what was John Gaines's
24 relationship with the company?
25 MS. CHAIKEN: Your Honor, he was a signer on the bank
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1 account. And he was the one who was communicating with
2 Ms. Jackson about the payments that were coming from Gaines
3 Reservation & Travel to Management Resource Services. He was
4 essentially saying to her, we need to make another transfer to
5 you from Gaines Reservation to Management Resource, what's
6 your bank account number. He was the one who delivered her a
7 check from Gaines Reservation & Travel to Management Resource
8 for her to deposit. So his relationship to Gaines Reservation
9 & Travel was he was the only person she communicated with who
10 had anything to do with Gaines Reservation & Travel. And I
11 believe Mr. Gaines's testimony at trial was that Ms. Jackson
12 barely knew Andre Gaines. So that was her sole link to Gaines
13 Reservation & Travel based on the evidence.
14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
15 I'm going to grant the government motion as to the
16 obstruction enhancement. I think 4(c) of the comments is
17 applicable here as far as production of a false document in an
18 investigation. I think her response to the subpoena was
19 false. That response -- when she was asked for all
20 communications with the following individual and/or entities,
21 that list included number 12, Gaines Reservation & Travel,
22 LLC. She responded to that question that in-person
23 communications were held with Andre Gaines, Gaines Reservation
24 & Travel, LLC, mentioned no communications with John Gaines,
25 and specifically did not mention or produce the text message
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1 to Mr. Gaines that was put into evidence at the trial. So
2 clearly that response was false. The question clearly asked
3 not only -- the subpoena clearly asked for communications not
4 only regarding Andre Gaines but also separately from Andre
5 Gaines, Gaines Reservation & Travel, LLC. John Gaines was
6 intimately involved with Gaines Reservation & Travel vis-a-vis
7 the facts of this case.
8 All right. And so the record's clear, I'm not
9 considering the declaration of Andre Lee Gaines, and I'm
10 making no finding about the significance of the obstruction
11 under 4(g) of the commentary of 3C1.1.
12 And I would note that I find that Ms. Jackson did,
13 indeed, sign and send the responsive subpoena response letter.
14 And I need make no finding as to who drafted the letter that
15 Mr. Gaines sent to make my finding as to obstruction vis-a-vis
16 Ms. Jackson. Nor do I even need to find that she wrote the
17 letter that she sent, but she did sign it and send it, that
18 much is clear.
19 All right. I believe that addresses any guideline
20 objection issues. Does everyone agree?
21 MS. CHAIKEN: Yes, your Honor.
22 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: I'll, therefore, adopt the findings of
24 fact and conclusions of law in the presentence report to which
25 no objection has been made.
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1 And as to the objections, several of those have been
2 withdrawn by the defense, but the two that were active
3 involved mitigating role and obstruction. And I have denied
4 the request for mitigating role, and I've granted the request
5 for obstruction.
6 Based on the findings of fact and conclusions of law
7 the guideline calculations are as follows:
8 And, Ms. Ridley, feel free to jump in if I muck
9 something up, but I think I've got this right based on my
10 rulings.
11 Offense level of 20;
12 Adjusted offense level of 24;
13 Total offense level of 22;
14 Criminal History Category of I;
15 Custody guideline range of 41 to 51 months;
16 Fine range of 15,000 to $670,476.44, twice the loss;
17 Supervised release of one to three years;
18 And restitution of $335,238.22.
19 Is that correct, Officer Ridley?
20 OFFICER RIDLEY: Yes, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Any objection to the guideline
22 calculations as stated by the Court?
23 MS. CHAIKEN: No, your Honor.
24 MR. MARSHALL: Subject to --
25 THE COURT: Other than what's been previously stated?
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1 MR. MARSHALL: No, your Honor, not other than that.
2 THE COURT: I'll now hear from the parties as to
3 recommendations for a reasonable sentence concerning the 18
4 USC, Section 3553(a) factors.
5 I have reviewed, of course, the PSR, the memos from
6 both the government and the defense and the separate packet of
7 I think 68 pages or so of letters on behalf of the defendant.
8 Are there any other documents or letters for the
9 Court from either side?
10 MS. CHAIKEN: Not from the government, your Honor.
11 MR. MARSHALL: Not from the defense, Judge. We do
12 have -- at some point we do have some witnesses that we
13 alerted the Court to that would like to briefly address the
14 Court. I think we have about -- at least five people, Judge,
15 no more than that.
16 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Marshall.
17 Are there any victims present that wish to speak or
18 present evidence in connection with the sentence in this case?
19 MS. CHAIKEN: No, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Marshall, I'll be happy to hear from
21 your first witness.
22 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, your Honor.
23 Mr. Smith, are you here?
24 Angela Meyer, please.
25 When you get to the microphone, just state your name
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1 for the record and your relationship to Ms. Jackson and then
2 tell the judge what you want to tell him.
3 THE COURT: One moment, ma'am.
4 MS. DICKSON: Hello, my name is --
5 THE COURT: Oh, one moment, ma'am. I'm sorry.
6 Off the record for a moment.
7 (Off-the-record discussion.)
8 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead, please. Back on
9 the record.
10 MS. DICKSON: Thank you.
11 Hello, my name is Angela Dickson, and I'm a dear
12 friend of Carla Jackson.
13 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Dickson, let me interrupt
14 you. Are you one of the people who wrote a letter?
15 MS. DICKSON: I'm sorry?
16 THE COURT: Did you write a letter as well?
17 MS. DICKSON: No.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Go ahead.
19 MS. DICKSON: My name is Angela, as I mentioned. And
20 I'm a dear friend of Carla Jackson. She and I have been
21 friends since middle school. We go way back to our hometown
22 of Indiana.
23 I just want to let you know who Carla is to me.
24 Carla has always been a dear friend we could always call on,
25 we could always count on as far as giving us positive feedback
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1 on how to be a better person in life. Carla's always been a
2 person that you could call on to ask for advice when you're
3 falling apart, because I've fallen apart many of times and
4 Carla has helped me get back together.
5 Carla Jackson has always been a person who upholds
6 justice. She upholds liberty. She upholds dignity. She's
7 the kind of person that we need in society. She is the kind
8 of person who helps feed the homeless. She is the kind of
9 person who is a sister to people who have no sisters. She's
10 the kind of a person who is a mother to people who have no
11 mother. Carla Jackson is the person that we need out in
12 society.
13 I ask that you please, I beg that you please have
14 mercy on my friend because she is not the person that the
15 prosecutor has presented her to be. She is the person that
16 loves to give and help. She is the kind of person that helps
17 mentor the youth. We have put together a youth program.
18 Carla Jackson has mentored the youth. She has mentored us.
19 She has been just an amazing person. And I'm so sorry that
20 she got caught up into whatever this whole thing is. But the
21 person that Carla Jackson is is the kind of person that you
22 would want your son or your daughter to be affiliated with
23 because she is just a good, humble person.
24 I would not stand here, take my time off of work,
25 miss out on traveling if I did not want you to really know
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1 that Carla Jackson is the person that society needs. And I
2 ask that you please have mercy on my friend.
3 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Dickson.
4 MR. MARSHALL: Arlisher Jones.
5 Same thing, when you address the judge, just give
6 your full name and what your relationship is to Ms. Jackson
7 and tell the judge what you want.
8 MS. SWAN: Your Honor, my name is Arlisher Jones Swan
9 actually. Carla Jackson and I have been friends --
10 THE COURT: Let me interrupt you. I'm probably going
11 to ask everybody the same question. Are you one of the people
12 who wrote a letter?
13 MS. SWAN: No, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
15 And, Mr. Marshall, maybe you can help me out. Is
16 anybody that's going to testify, have they also written a
17 letter?
18 MR. MARSHALL: Just one second, Judge, I'll confirm
19 that.
20 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Marshall, I think you were
21 going to give me a list.
22 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, the only two -- I had given you
23 a list. Venita McCollum, Ms. McCollum had written a letter.
24 And Tammy Moore is here, she has written a letter also.
25 They're the only two that would like to speak today who have
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1 also wrote letters, Judge.
2 THE COURT: When you get to them, I may have you tell
3 me which page it is of your 68-page document so I can find it
4 quickly. I'll go ahead and hear from Ms. Jones first.
5 Ma'am, go ahead.
6 MS. SWAN: Yes, your Honor. Once again, my name is
7 Arlisher Jones Swan. I've known Carla for over 35 years. We
8 grew up together in a small town in Indiana. Carla and I
9 relocated here before we graduated from high school. I was
10 shocked and surprised that she was moving her senior year as
11 well. But I was very pleased. If I could have picked anyone
12 to move here with me, it would have been Carla.
13 We managed to speak several times during our senior
14 year. And she was on one side of town, and I was on the
15 other, but it was a great comfort to me to know that I had
16 someone who was such a good friend on the other side of town
17 that I could count on.
18 Through the years Carla and I have reconnected
19 through service. We have served through mentoring groups
20 Ms. Dickson mentioned. We also have been part of a book club.
21 We've traveled together. She's helped mentor my children. My
22 children often joke -- I have five -- that they wish that
23 Ms. Jackson was their legitimate aunt instead of just someone
24 that they just call aunt. She is very kind. She is very
25 loyal. She is a person that I am very, very grateful to call
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1 a friend.
2 Your Honor, I would ask that you would look upon her
3 with mercy. I would ask that you would look upon her with
4 kindness.
5 And I would ask, Lord -- as well, your Honor, that
6 you would give her an opportunity to right this wrong on the
7 outside as opposed to on the inside, your Honor. Thank you.
8 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am.
9 So are you from Gary, Indiana?
10 MS. SWAN: Yes, sir, I am.
11 THE COURT: I read a lot about Gary, Indiana, over
12 the last couple days. And I'm betting half the people in the
13 gallery are from Gary, Indiana, or something.
14 MS. SWAN: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: I feel like I need to ask what part of
16 Indiana is Gary, Indiana?
17 MS. SWAN: Gary, Indiana, is in the northwest part of
18 Indiana, approximately 20 minutes outside of Chicago,
19 Illinois. It is considered a bedroom community of Chicago
20 right now. It is comprised of hard-working, middle class
21 individuals. It is a steel mill town. And we are lakefront,
22 we sit on the corner of Lake Michigan.
23 THE COURT: Nice certain parts of the year, I bet,
24 but maybe not so nice in others.
25 MS. SWAN: Harsh winters, sir.
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1 THE COURT: Okay. Very well, thank you. I've had
2 the pleasure or displeasure of being to Cleveland. I've not
3 been to Gary, Indiana, in the winter months, but I went to
4 Cleveland once --
5 MS. SWAN: Very similar in weather.
6 THE COURT: -- and I was wishing I hadn't been there
7 in the winter.
8 All right. Thank you.
9 MR. MARSHALL: Venita McCollum.
10 Judge, I'll have to apologize. I submitted that as a
11 composite exhibit, so I --
12 THE COURT: That's okay. I'll flip through and find
13 McCollum. I'm just trying to get context of the letters when
14 people talk, so I'll find it real quick.
15 MR. MARSHALL: Ms. McCollum, we'll let the judge go
16 through those. He has a lot of letters to look through.
17 And the other one is Tammi Moore, Judge, that's the
18 other one.
19 THE COURT: Would you believe it's on pages 67 and 68
20 of your 68-page filing?
21 MR. MARSHALL: Were you able to see Tammi Moore also?
22 THE COURT: I can only do one thing at a time. As
23 you know, I was looking for just Ms. McCollum's. So let me
24 look back through my notes of that letter before I hear from
25 you, Ms. McCollum.
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1 MS. MCCOLLUM: Okay.
2 MR. MARSHALL: I apologize, Judge. I didn't put them
3 as separate exhibits.
4 THE COURT: No, it's fine. It's fine. I found it.
5 Okay.
6 Ms. McCollum, good afternoon. How are you?
7 MS. MCCOLLUM: Good afternoon. I'm well.
8 THE COURT: I read your letter, and I would be happy
9 to hear from you now in more detail.
10 MS. MCCOLLUM: Okay. I'm going to keep it sweet and
11 simple.
12 I, too, am from Gary, Indiana. And Carla and I have
13 been friends since sixth grade. And I do considered her my
14 very best friend.
15 Carla has been with me all of my life and most of my
16 adult life. And I can't believe at 56 years old we are here
17 begging for her mercy. But we are glad to be here and stand
18 in the gap for her because she is, first of all, a woman of
19 God, a woman who lives a very Godly life, a woman that we are
20 very proud of. Someone that we call sister. Someone that my
21 kids also can call auntie. She's been there through both of
22 my births. She's been there for me through a divorce, through
23 the death of both of my parents, through the loss of jobs,
24 through bachelor's degrees, through working on a master's
25 degree. She's been my support, and I have, too, been hers.
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1 And there's so much we can say about Carla. She is a
2 confidant, a good friend. She's works in the ministry with us
3 at church. She feeds the homeless. She helps the needy. She
4 works in after-school programs. And we have come a very long
5 way.
6 And Carla has always been the one who has always had
7 it together at a very early age. She worked at McDonald's
8 very young from the front counter to management. She worked
9 for the McDonald's Corporation. She has given over 25-plus
10 years to IBM Corporation. Her credit is impeccable. Her
11 home, has owned her home for several years. And has also
12 maintained very good credit. I don't think my friend would
13 want to give all of that away and -- for this foolishness.
14 I just beg of you that you find it in your heart to
15 find leniency on her and that she can have probation because
16 Carla is someone that needs to be in the community to continue
17 doing the good work that she has done this far in life.
18 THE COURT: Ma'am, thank you.
19 MS. MCCOLLUM: Thank you.
20 MR. MARSHALL: Tammi Moore.
21 Judge, page 59 in the exhibit number.
22 THE COURT: Thank you whoever found that.
23 Ma'am, hello. Give me one minute. I want to look
24 back over your letter before I hear from you, okay?
25 MS. MOORE: Yes, sir.
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1 THE COURT: Ma'am, I had a notation from your letter,
2 I've got a little star by it. I think you've got the best
3 street name maybe I've ever heard in my entire life.
4 Anybody else knows what street her business is on or
5 lives on? Sly Fox Run. That's outstanding.
6 MS. MOORE: Thank you.
7 THE COURT: I'm imaging some wonderful little country
8 lane with wildlife prancing around.
9 Is it like that?
10 MS. MOORE: No, not at all. But it is a subdivision.
11 THE COURT: Maybe it was long ago when they named it
12 Sly Fox Run.
13 MS. MOORE: Yeah.
14 THE COURT: Go ahead. Tell me a little bit more
15 about how you know Ms. Jackson.
16 MS. MOORE: Yes. Thank you, your Honor, and the
17 distinguished members of the court. I just want to share some
18 words to help you understand who Carla really is.
19 She has just been a model citizen. I know from me
20 when I moved to Georgia in 2003 and we all came together from
21 Gary, Indiana, we started a women's book club. And through
22 that book club and under the leadership of Carla we were able
23 to start feeding the homeless, as you heard before. We
24 actually started a teens group called Teens with a Dream under
25 her leadership to help children just navigate through life and
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1 navigate through crisis. As a matter of fact, some of them
2 showed up today, called off of work, some of the teenagers
3 that she's poured into.
4 She hasn't had any children of her own, but she's
5 been a mother to so many kids. She's just been a beacon of
6 light. She's been a model citizen, helped me be a better
7 person in corporate America. She helped me to understand the
8 importance of cleaning up my credit score and even to be a
9 better person just as a wife and a mother.
10 My husband and I started a coaching program, and we
11 help people start transportation companies. And we've helped
12 over 700 people start transportation companies through her
13 guidance, riding with us shotgun every step of the way,
14 helping us understand how to run a business and to be
15 successful and how to give back.
16 And I think about why would she, someone that's spent
17 all her life building such a successful life, successful
18 career, just throw all this away? So it defies the odds.
19 It's not who Carla really is, your Honor.
20 What I know for sure is that in every family
21 throughout generations the Lord identifies one or two souls
22 within the family to help break generational curses, to change
23 the whole trajectory of the family's life, to change zip
24 codes, to pour into people. And she is the one that God has
25 chosen, not only in her family, but in the community to make a
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1 difference.
2 And I ask God -- your Honor -- I'm sorry, I just
3 called you God.
4 I just ask, your Honor, if you would have leniency on
5 her. Again, probation, something that she can still -- she
6 can still be on the outside helping and giving back to the
7 community, because what we're hearing today and what we've
8 heard so far is just not Carla Jackson.
9 As I close, I'm just wanted to say, just think about
10 it, if you had a child or spouse or someone who was close to
11 you that was going through something, going through a
12 challenge, suffering through life, and you happen to go on
13 Google looking for the best life coach, the best counselor,
14 someone that could pour into them and help them change their
15 whole trajectory of their life, you would find Carla Jackson
16 in that Google search. I'm talking about the poster child in
17 the Google search.
18 So I just ask that you have leniency on her,
19 probation. This is the first time of her ever being in court,
20 ever being in trouble. And I can rest assure to you that this
21 will never happen again.
22 Thank you, your Honor, and I thank you for this
23 opportunity to speak.
24 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am.
25 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, those are all the witnesses
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1 that wanted to make a statement. It's possible Ms. Jackson
2 wants to make a brief statement, Judge.
3 THE COURT: Thank you.
4 Yeah, usually I'll hear from her after I hear from
5 you, so we'll wait on that one for now.
6 Mr. Marshall, I'm happy to hear from you now.
7 MR. MARSHALL: Sure, Judge.
8 You already have the memorandum that we submitted and
9 you have the government's, your Honor. I think I just want to
10 make some general comments, your Honor.
11 I know the unusual posture that this is in because I
12 know one of the statements in the government's memorandum is
13 that Ms. Jackson hasn't shown remorse or admitted
14 responsibility, accepted responsibility. And, obviously,
15 we're in a -- she went to trial. She obviously has a right to
16 go to jury trial, exercise that constitutional right. And the
17 jury found the government's evidence sufficient to meet their
18 burden. So it's a -- I'm in a tough spot, your Honor, because
19 this is probably -- you know, I don't always get defendants
20 where I believe that the jury may have gotten it wrong,
21 different evidence. But I truly respect what the jury found,
22 your Honor, I have to do that.
23 I would just say, your Honor, for all the purposes
24 like -- I know there's a general deterrence purpose that has
25 to be for the greater public. There certainly no specific
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1 deterrence that is needed for Ms. Jackson. I would bet the
2 Court would probably agree that they would not see Ms. Jackson
3 back here ever again for anything.
4 She's gone her entire life without any criminal
5 history convictions or any kind of interactions with law
6 enforcement. She's lead a successful life and career. You
7 have a copy of her resume that I submitted as part of the
8 memorandum. She's done very, very well.
9 I will tell the Court, even in all my calls with
10 Ms. Jackson, it sounds like a defense attorney kind of being
11 managed by a manager because I'll get kind of repeat messages
12 or text messages or e-mails to remind me, when are we going to
13 meet, let's do a Zoom meeting, what would be the agenda, what
14 are we going to go over. So she's very organized and on top
15 and that's probably from her decades of experience working for
16 these types of companies. So it's a shock to see her in this
17 position, Judge.
18 The 3553(a) factors under Title 18, Judge, the nature
19 and circumstances of the offense, obviously it's a serious
20 charge. All of the charges in this indictment are serious.
21 They have to be addressed. We do not dispute that at all.
22 The history and characteristics of the defendant, I
23 think we've put forth amply a lot of letters attesting to
24 Ms. Jackson's good character and background and how this is
25 absolutely an anomalous result in her life for who she is. So
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1 that is addressing factor one under A(1).
2 A(2), the need for the sentence imposed to reflect
3 the seriousness of the offense, to promote respect for the law
4 and to provide just punishment for the offense. Again, we're
5 going to get into this discussion about what is proper. Is a
6 custody sentence appropriate? Should it be within the
7 guidelines? Is probation an option? Is some mixed type of
8 sentence available? Those are things I may just address at
9 the very end of this statement, Judge.
10 To afford adequate deterrence, we've talked about
11 that a little bit. I made a reference in there as far as
12 general deterrence, Judge, that there are now additional
13 controls in place for at least the PPP loan program. I know
14 that Ms. Jackson was not charged with PPP loan fraud, but
15 those are in place so it makes it much more difficult for
16 offenders to come out and procure these types of illegal and
17 begotten gains, like Darrell Thomas did, like John Gaines did,
18 to submit these applications. We know it's serious, though,
19 Judge. But we'll address also, I think she's been adequately
20 deterred.
21 And probation, I do remind, Judge, whether it's an
22 option for the Court or not, it does have -- it is a serious
23 restriction on somebody's liberty. The United States Supreme
24 Court I think in Gall v. United States actually addressed
25 that. It is not something without severe restrictions on what
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1 somebody can do with their life. And if it's coupled with
2 something like a home detention-type sentence, you can't go
3 anywhere without informing probation or supervision officers.
4 You can only do certain things. You have to report on a
5 certain -- a regular basis. You're restricted obviously on
6 the things you can do outside. You can't travel without
7 permission. Lots of special conditions that can be imposed on
8 somebody so that their liberty is not free. It is restricted.
9 And probation is what it is. It's a suspended prison sentence
10 to see if somebody can do well and perform well. And if they
11 don't, that probation is taken away and they go into custody.
12 To afford adequate deterrence, to protect the public
13 from further crimes of the defendant. Judge, I don't see that
14 happening. I would doubt that the government's going to argue
15 that she will be a future threat.
16 Educational or vocational training, that's not really
17 relevant here, Judge.
18 The kinds of sentences available. We'll talk about
19 that a little bit more, the sentencing ranges.
20 Let me go into the next factor. Factor 6, to
21 avoid -- the need to avoid unwanted sentence disparities among
22 the defendants with similar records who have been found guilty
23 of similar conduct.
24 Well, I did want to point out, again, Andre Gaines --
25 I know that the government listed only one defendant in this
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1 overall case that received a probation sentence. I'm assuming
2 they're referring to Andre Gaines because of his health
3 background. He did get a five-year sentence. And, obviously,
4 he was involved more so than just the false statement, Judge,
5 although certainly controlled, I think, by John Gaines.
6 Restitution. Obviously restitution needs to be paid.
7 And that would be done by a sentence that gets Ms. Jackson out
8 sooner rather than later.
9 Your Honor, I think I remember asking the -- and this
10 is back on me. I know the Court will remind me, the jury's
11 verdict is in. In my closing argument I made a statement to
12 the jury, I said, you know -- I came up after Ms. Chaiken's
13 argument and I said, you know, it's kind of interesting, why
14 would this woman go through all these decades of successful
15 work, going up to the top levels of project management,
16 working 20 years, 17, 20 years for IBM, doing all this, at the
17 time she had a current job, a job that was paying her, I
18 think, $144,000 a year, was not in financial straits, anything
19 of that nature, just decide on a whim to commit money
20 laundering. And it just -- I tried to get the argument across
21 to the jury, they didn't agree, was that, well, because that's
22 not common sense, it's not logical that someone would do that
23 with that kind of background and do something like that. What
24 is more logical is that she was lied to on a regular basis by
25 her ex-husband, Mr. John Gaines.
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1 And we know from the testimony in the trial that we
2 got out other frauds that he had been doing for years and
3 years before -- my client knew nothing about, other types of
4 frauds, credit card fraud, license, ID documents. Nothing.
5 And yet she was married to this man for quite a long time.
6 And I think people may ask sometimes, how can someone
7 this smart, this type level, be involved with someone like
8 this? Well, who knows why we end up picking some partners
9 sometimes, Judge, but people can get fooled by people that
10 they're close to and in close relationships and not realize
11 really who they are until decades later. I say all that, and
12 I don't mean to get the ire of the Court, we respect the
13 finding of the jury.
14 Judge, I just ask before Ms. Jackson makes a
15 statement to just consider all the sentencing options. I know
16 she went to trial. I know that probation in that context may
17 be a stretch. And I'll just be honest about that because
18 normally you do not get acceptance of responsibility and
19 there's some type -- it's not really a trial penalty but
20 there's something that goes along with that, with making that
21 decision to go forward in trial.
22 But I would just ask the Court to, you know,
23 consider everything that she's done and to impose something --
24 probation, possibly home detention. Or if the Court is going
25 to order detention, make it as low as possible so that all of
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1 these people, the 40 people -- honestly, Judge, I could have
2 gotten you close to 100 letters from other individuals that
3 know Ms. Jackson. It's not just 40. That's the largest
4 number of support letters I have ever had in any of my cases.
5 So she is well loved in her community by everyone here and all
6 the other people who didn't show up today.
7 So I think a sentence could be fashioned, Judge, to
8 where if the Court wants custody, it can be a very low amount,
9 maybe coupled with home detention, maybe some probation. But
10 we would ask the Court to consider that instead of just a
11 guideline sentence, your Honor. Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Marshall.
13 We've been going a good while, I think we should take
14 a break before I hear from Ms. Jackson and the government.
15 All right. Let's take about a five-, ten-minute
16 break.
17 (After a recess at 2:51 p.m., the proceedings
18 continued at 3:02 p.m. as follows:)
19 THE COURT: Ms. Jackson, I've had the benefit of
20 hearing from your counsel, but if there's anything you would
21 like to personally say before I sentence you this afternoon, I
22 would be happy to hear from you now, ma'am.
23 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you, your Honor. And I'm just
24 nervous and terrified, so I'm going to just read from
25 something I wrote so I don't lose my points, if you don't
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1 mind.
2 Your Honor, thank you for allowing me an opportunity
3 to speak. I do stand before you with a heavy heart, aware of
4 the gravity of this case and the impact of all the defendants'
5 actions.
6 I am deeply sorry for the adverse impact and
7 disruption to the financial institutions and government
8 resources.
9 I exercised my right to a jury trial. The verdict
10 from the trial was, unfortunately, not ruled in my favor, but
11 I do accept and respect the jury's decision.
12 Prior to your sentencing ruling, I ask for the Court
13 to consider the broader picture of who I am and my existing
14 contributions to society. I am an active member of my
15 community, and I embrace the opportunity to learn, teach,
16 mentor and encourage personal and professional development,
17 especially among young adults.
18 Since this entire matter and after my employment
19 ended, I did enroll in Georgia Film Academy hoping to reinvent
20 myself because my life as I knew it has significantly changed.
21 I serve as a volunteer to assist small businessowners
22 in business operations and process development. I am
23 currently assisting Park Equity Group, LLC, with budget and
24 expense tracking and development of operational procedures for
25 residential purchases, renovations and sales.
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1 I am a volunteer events coordinator and culinary team
2 member at the Faith Center. I lead a weekly discipleship
3 Bible study group. I currently assist with daycare for my
4 great nephew who, unfortunately, we found out shortly after he
5 was born has some health challenges. I take him to physical
6 and occupational therapy appointments.
7 I established quite a few training and job lead
8 connections at WorkSource DeKalb with an opportunity for
9 future employment opportunities. I work with Ms. Bria
10 Peterson who is a liaison at WorkSource DeKalb through
11 Goodwill and their job fairs.
12 I created a nonprofit for Sheldon and Tammi Moore,
13 which Tammi Moore spoke today, called the House of Mana. And
14 the mission of that nonprofit is to help rehabilitate and
15 transition ex-offenders and the underserved with transitional
16 housing and support, including job training to increase
17 self-sufficiency and mature their independence post-release.
18 Your Honor, I do humbly plead for your mercy for a
19 lenient sentence. I know a lot has transpired and your mercy
20 and belief at my potential to make amends will grant me the
21 opportunity to begin restitution, continue to positively
22 contribute to society and rebuild my life. Thank you.
23 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am. And you have my
24 condolences. I read about Anthony and what happened.
25 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you.
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1 MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Judge.
2 THE COURT: Ms. Chaiken, does the government have a
3 response?
4 MS. CHAIKEN: Yes, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Go ahead.
6 MS. CHAIKEN: Thank you, your Honor.
7 Your Honor, we have read the more than three dozen
8 character letters that Ms. Jackson submitted. And we've heard
9 the supporters who spoke here today as well as Ms. Jackson's
10 own words. And all of that paints a picture of a person who
11 has an incredible amount of support and who is tremendously
12 valued by the community she's been a part of throughout her
13 life. And I'm going to talk more about those letters shortly.
14 Under the 3553(a) factors the Court needs to balance
15 Ms. Jackson's history and characteristics along with the other
16 important Section 3553(a) factors. And here we believe that
17 a low-end guideline sentence appropriately balances
18 Ms. Jackson's history and characteristics as well as the
19 seriousness of the offense, the need to afford adequate
20 deterrence, the need to promote respect for the law and
21 provide just punishment, and the need to avoid unwarranted
22 sentencing disparities.
23 Your Honor, I don't normally start with history and
24 characteristics, I normally start with seriousness of the
25 offense, but today I would like to start with Ms. Jackson's
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1 history and characteristics.
2 I'm sure the Court no doubt remembers many of the
3 compelling history and characteristics presented by some of
4 the other defendants in this case, but there's no doubt that
5 Ms. Jackson's sentencing presentation is unique in the volume
6 and in the breadth of the character letters that she submitted
7 and in the support that she has.
8 Her letters included letters from family members,
9 from friends, from high school classmates, from book club
10 members, from mentees, from colleagues and others. And one
11 letter in particular that I thought was very notable and very
12 admirable was the letter from Mr. Gaines's ex-wife that
13 praised Ms. Jackson's participation in raising her stepson.
14 These character letters as a whole praise
15 Ms. Jackson's virtues and her contributions to her community
16 and they show the tremendous support that she has had over the
17 years. And the Court certainly should consider all of that in
18 considering the Section 3553(a) factors.
19 When I was reading the letters and thinking about the
20 3553(a) factors, I was struck by the many similarities between
21 Ms. Jackson and the defendant in United States v. Howard,
22 28 F.4th 180, Eleventh Circuit 2022, which is cited throughout
23 our brief. That was a white collar case where the Eleventh
24 Circuit reversed a defendant's sentence of probation with home
25 confinement as being substantively unreasonable. And there
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1 were many independent reasons for that, but one of them is
2 that the Court considered the defendant's history in isolation
3 and without regard to the criminal conduct for which the
4 defendant was convicted and the characteristics it revealed.
5 The defendant in that case asked for probation when
6 she had a guideline range of 78 to 97 months, and she
7 submitted more than 50 letters, again, from people all
8 throughout her community, and she had seven people speak on
9 her behalf at sentencing. And the Eleventh Circuit explained
10 that the district court was absolutely correct to consider
11 those letters and those oral statements which were strong and
12 relevant evidence of the defendant's pre-criminal personal
13 history and her personal characteristics. But the district
14 court was wrong in letting that factor outweigh all of the
15 other factors that showed that a sentence of imprisonment
16 was necessary to serve other important purposes of
17 Section 3553(a).
18 So here, of course, the Court should consider all
19 the letters submitted by Ms. Jackson's supporters. It should
20 consider her many good deeds and the many virtues she's had
21 throughout her life. And in part because of what we've
22 learned about Ms. Jackson's background through those letters
23 we've chosen to recommend a sentence at the low end of the
24 guideline range as opposed to the middle or the high end,
25 which is what we often do after a defendant is convicted at
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1 trial rather than after a guilty plea. But we do believe that
2 a low-end guideline sentence is necessary to account for other
3 important Section 3553(a) factors.
4 And before I move on to those, I just want to address
5 a few other aspects of Ms. Jackson's history and
6 characteristics that underscore why a low-end guideline
7 sentence is appropriate here.
8 The first is acceptance of responsibility. As the
9 Court knows, the government charged 24 people as part of this
10 investigation and only two of them have gone to trial.
11 Mr. Baptiste's case is, of course, still pending.
12 Ms. Jackson was charged in August of 2020. She had
13 more than three-and-a-half years to accept responsibility for
14 her offense before her trial. And to put that in perspective,
15 the very first defendant who pleaded guilty was Kahlil Green
16 who was charged with Ms. Jackson on August 4th of 2020. He
17 pleaded guilty less than one month later on September 1st of
18 2020. He was sentenced to 41 months of imprisonment. And he
19 was released from his sentence before Ms. Jackson's trial even
20 began.
21 This Court has had many defendants before it in this
22 case who have tearfully expressed remorse for their
23 participation in the offense. And some of them, I'm sure the
24 Court remembers, strongly felt that they had been led into the
25 offenses by other people, like Darrell Thomas or someone who
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1 recruited them, but they nevertheless acknowledged their own
2 role, their own wrongdoing and they committed to doing better.
3 Jackson is one of only two defendants who has not
4 done that, not just in the legal sense of not accepting
5 responsibility by going to trial, but also in the practical
6 sense of acknowledging any role that she had in what she did
7 and in what happened here.
8 And she continues to blame others. She continues to
9 blame John Gaines. She blames the PPP program for being set
10 up in a way that it invited fraud. At trial she blamed Agent
11 Stites for the way in which he interviewed her, which caused
12 her to lie. She has blamed everyone except for herself and
13 the decisions that she has made. And the Howard case, the
14 Eleventh Circuit recognized a distinction between defendants
15 who accept responsibility and those who don't. They recognize
16 that they're not similarly situated.
17 The next aspect I would like to address is her
18 education and professional background. The Court has heard
19 a lot about her education and how she was a successful
20 professional woman and that has obviously contributed to the
21 standing that she has in her community and the support that
22 she has. But, again, the Eleventh Circuit's opinion in Howard
23 is instructive here because in that case the Court reiterated
24 that it encourages district courts to keep in mind that
25 criminals who have the education and training that enables
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1 people to make a decent living without resorting to crime are
2 more, rather than less, culpable than their desperately poor
3 and deprived brethren in crime.
4 And the Court in Howard recognized a risk in building
5 in lower sentences for people who are of higher socioeconomic
6 standing and, therefore, have more to lose by virtue of their
7 conviction.
8 Ms. Jackson had all of the education, all of the
9 support, all of the professional training and all of the
10 financial resources to say no to participating in this crime.
11 And the fact that she participated anyway makes her more
12 culpable, not less culpable, than some of the defendants in
13 this case who acted out of sheer desperation and a perceived
14 lack of options during the pandemic.
15 One last aspect I would like to address is her lack
16 of criminal history. Ms. Jackson has a criminal history score
17 of zero. She, therefore, is in Criminal History Category I,
18 and that category accounts for her lack of criminal history.
19 But Ms. Jackson here has also received the benefit of
20 Section 4C1.1 which took effect on November 1st of 2023. And
21 in that sense ironically Ms. Jackson's failure to accept
22 responsibility has actually benefitted her because none of the
23 other defendants in this case have gotten the benefit of 4C1.1
24 other than I believe Ms. Pyfrom Foster who was sentenced right
25 before that section took effect. And so all of the other
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1 defendants in this case with very limited exception have not
2 gotten that additional two-level reduction that Ms. Jackson
3 has gotten because her case has dragged on this long. And
4 that two-level reduction we think is another reason why the
5 Court should not go beyond the low end of the guideline range
6 and impose a further guideline variance.
7 Moving on to the seriousness of the offense, your
8 Honor. Money laundering is obviously a very serious offense.
9 It's punishable by 20 years in prison. It makes a person
10 inadmissible to the United States. And it enables people who
11 commit fraud to hide their money, to hide their own
12 involvement in the crime and prevent their victims from
13 recovering their money.
14 The seriousness of the offense is exacerbated here
15 given the context where the money that was being concealed was
16 money that was meant for struggling businesses during an
17 unprecedented global crisis. And the person who concealed
18 that money was a woman who was lucky enough to have a six
19 figure job at that time and to not be struggling to stay
20 employed during the pandemic.
21 Of course, your Honor John Gaines is more culpable
22 than Ms. Jackson in this offense. The evidence that was
23 presented at Ms. Jackson's trial showed that overwhelmingly,
24 and we do not dispute that. But as I said at trial and as
25 I'll say again, Ms. Jackson is not here because John Gaines
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1 asked her to help him hide PPP money. She is here because she
2 said yes. She's here because when the FBI came knocking at
3 her door, she chose to lie. She's here because when she was
4 asked to respond to a grand jury subpoena, she lied again.
5 She's here because to this day she has refused to acknowledge
6 any wrongdoing. And it's likely that she would be in a very
7 different position if on that day that the FBI came to her
8 door she had told them that her ex-husband had asked her to
9 take some money into her account and told them everything, but
10 she did not do that. So we believe the seriousness of the
11 offense does not weigh in favor of a downward variance, your
12 Honor.
13 As far as the deterrence, your Honor, the Court knows
14 the Eleventh Circuit has repeatedly emphasized the importance
15 of general deterrence in white-collar cases because white-
16 collar crimes are cool, collected, rational, they are not heat
17 of the moment crimes. And in her sentencing memo and in
18 Mr. Marshall's comments today there was reference to the PPP
19 program being set up in a way that was rife for fraud. It had
20 weak controls I think was what was said. And Ms. Jackson
21 argued that it was paradoxical for the government to claim a
22 need for general deterrence because the government set up the
23 program in this way.
24 Now, first of all, Ms. Jackson was convicted of money
25 laundering, not PPP fraud, and there's a need to deter money
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1 laundering always. Money launderers are operating all over
2 the country and all over the world and continue to do so to
3 enable fraudsters to hide money. But even as to PPP fraud,
4 this is not an argument that weighs against the very important
5 need for deterrence.
6 Essentially what Ms. Jackson is saying is that when
7 people commit fraud against government programs, instead of
8 punishing them what we should do is set up government programs
9 that people cannot commit fraud against, that are fraud proof.
10 And what that means is the next time there's a global pandemic
11 or natural disaster like Hurricane Katrina or a national need
12 for programs like Medicaid or Medicare, in order to prevent
13 people from committing fraud the program should be set up with
14 such stringent controls and such strict requirements that
15 nobody will ever be able to commit fraud against it. But, of
16 course, the people who desperately need money from those aid
17 programs won't be able to get it and won't be able to get it
18 quickly because of all of those processes that are in place.
19 And that is what is paradoxical. That is what makes no sense.
20 That's not the world we want to live in. And it's not the
21 world that the Eleventh Circuit recognizes is any kind of
22 legitimate alternative to the system we have in place, which
23 is one where general deterrence is critically important to
24 deter this kind of crime.
25 And, again, the fact that the PPP program may not be
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1 the subject of fraud anymore, it doesn't exist anymore,
2 doesn't lessen the need for general deterrence because there
3 will be another government benefit program.
4 And we've cited a case in our brief that had to do
5 with COVID Economic Injury Disaster loan funding where the
6 Eleventh Circuit said you still need to deter the next
7 government program fraud, even if the specific government
8 program fraud you defrauded doesn't exist anymore.
9 We agree, your Honor, as to specific deterrence, but
10 it's far less of a concern than general deterrence. As we
11 noted in our memo, we are concerned by the fact that
12 Ms. Jackson was not deterred by the FBI coming to her door.
13 That is normally a step that would make someone realize that
14 they've done something they shouldn't have done, that they're
15 not going to do it again, that they're going to remove
16 themselves from the situation. And that was not the effect it
17 had on Ms. Jackson.
18 Ms. Jackson lied. And then she had weeks to prepare
19 a grand jury subpoena response. And she, again, lied. And
20 that does give us some pause, although I agree with
21 Mr. Marshall that I will -- if I was a betting woman, I will
22 bet I will not see her again, and I hope that's right. But I
23 think there is some need for specific deterrence here.
24 I would also note as far as deterrence, your Honor,
25 there's been some argument that Ms. Jackson has already lost
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1 her career and that she is going to be a felon and that this
2 has already deeply impacted her. Those are arguments that
3 were raised in the Howard case. Again, the defendant in that
4 case was a doctor, and she was going to lose her medical
5 license and the Eleventh Circuit -- I'm sorry, the district
6 court in that case thought that that was sufficient deterrence
7 and that she and other doctors in the future would not commit
8 this crime or would not commit this type of crime because
9 they were going to lose their license and that was such a
10 significant punishment that if that didn't deter them, nothing
11 else would.
12 And the Eleventh Circuit said you cannot reason away
13 general deterrence in that way, that general deterrence is
14 still important in those situations where someone is losing a
15 professional license. And that, if anything, giving someone a
16 downward variance or reasoning away deterrence because they
17 had a license to lose is really just giving someone a benefit
18 because they are of that status in the first place, which
19 would essentially just be giving a benefit to people of
20 generally higher socioeconomic standing.
21 Finally, as to unwarranted sentencing disparities,
22 your Honor, Ms. Jackson is uniquely situated in this case.
23 She is the only defendant in this case who was solely a money
24 launderer as opposed to someone who participated in the
25 underlying fraud.
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1 I would note, however, your Honor, that the Court has
2 imposed guideline sentences on many of the defendants in this
3 case. Some defendants have received downward variances based
4 on various circumstances, including past military service,
5 familial caretaking responsibilities, extraordinary efforts
6 towards payment of restitution before sentencing, medical
7 conditions and other mitigating circumstances.
8 But even Jesika Blakely and Megan Thomas who are,
9 undoubtedly, incredibly sympathetic defendants, both of whom
10 had young children at home, both of whom were motivated to
11 commit their crimes by their romantic relationships with
12 Darrell Thomas, both of them still received significant
13 sentences of imprisonment. And so we think that a sentence of
14 probation for Ms. Jackson or anything other than a significant
15 sentence of imprisonment would create unwarranted sentencing
16 disparities to the extent that there are similarities between
17 Ms. Jackson and other defendants in this case.
18 For all of these reasons, your Honor, we ask the
19 Court to consider and weigh the Section 3553(a) factors and
20 to impose a sentence at the low end of the guidelines at
21 41 months.
22 THE COURT: Thank you.
23 MS. CHAIKEN: Thank you.
24 THE COURT: Is there any other matter that the Court
25 needs to take up or anything else from either side before I
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1 issue a sentence in this case?
2 MS. CHAIKEN: No, your Honor. Thank you.
3 MR. MARSHALL: No, Judge.
4 THE COURT: Ms. Jackson, if you'll please stand.
5 Pursuant to the Sentencing Reform Act of 1984, it's
6 the judgment of the Court that you, Carla Jackson, are hereby
7 committed to the custody of the Federal Bureau of Prisons to
8 be imprisoned for a term of 36 months custody.
9 Ma'am, you can be seated while I read to you the rest
10 of your sentence.
11 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: You must pay to the United States a
13 special assessment of $100 due immediately.
14 The Court finds that you do not have the ability to
15 pay a fine and cost of incarceration. The Court will,
16 therefore, waive the fine and cost of incarceration in this
17 case.
18 Restitution in the amount of $335,238.22 is owed
19 jointly and severally with Darrell Thomas, Andre Gaines, John
20 Gaines, Jesika Blakely and Teldrin Foster to the following
21 victims:
22 Cross River Bank in the amount of $325,181.07;
23 And the Small Business Administration DFC in the
24 amount of $10,057.15.
25 Restitution shall be paid in full immediately.
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1 You must pay the above-noted financial penalties in
2 accordance with the schedule of payments sheet of the
3 judgment.
4 Payment of criminal monetary penalties is due during
5 the period of imprisonment. All criminal monetary penalties
6 except those made through the Federal Bureau of Prison's
7 Inmate Financial Responsibility Program are to be made payable
8 to the Clerk of the US District Court, 2211 US Courthouse,
9 75 Ted Turner Drive, Southwest, Atlanta, Georgia, 30303.
10 Any balance that remains unpaid at the commencement
11 of the terms of supervision shall commence within 60 days
12 after release of imprisonment on the following terms:
13 Payable at a rate of no less than $500 monthly to the
14 US District Court Clerk. You must notify the Court of any
15 changes in economic circumstances that might effect the
16 ability to pay this financial penalty.
17 The Court determines that you do not have the
18 ability to pay interest, and it's ordered that the interest
19 requirement is waived for restitution.
20 Upon release from imprisonment you'll be on
21 supervised release for a term of two years.
22 You must comply with the mandatory conditions of
23 release.
24 You must not commit another federal, state or local
25 crime.
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1 You must not unlawfully possess a controlled
2 substance.
3 You must refrain from any unlawful use of a
4 controlled substance.
5 You must submit to one drug test within 15 days of
6 release from imprisonment and at least two periodic drug tests
7 thereafter as determined by the Court.
8 You must cooperate in the collection of DNA as
9 directed by the probation officer.
10 You must make restitution in accordance with 18 USC
11 Sections 3663 and 3663(A) or any other statute authorizing a
12 sentence of restitution.
13 As part of your supervised release, you must comply
14 with the standard conditions of supervision which have been
15 adopted by this Court and are incorporated by reference.
16 These conditions are imposed because they establish basic
17 expectations for your behavior while on supervision and
18 identify the minimum tools needed by probation officers to
19 keep informed, report to the Court and bring about
20 improvements in your conduct and condition.
21 The standard conditions of supervision will be
22 included in the judgment.
23 You must comply with the following special conditions
24 during the term of supervised release:
25 You must make full and complete disclosure of your
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1 finances and submit to an audit of your financial documents at
2 the request of your probation officer.
3 You must provide the probation officer with full and
4 complete access to any requested financial information and
5 authorize the release of any financial information. The
6 probation office may share the financial information with the
7 US Attorney's Office.
8 You must not incur new credit charges or open
9 additional lines of credit without the approval of the
10 probation officer.
11 This sentence is made in view of the sentencing goals
12 delineated in 18 USC, Section 3553(a), and the parties'
13 arguments as to those factors, including:
14 The nature and circumstances of the offense and the
15 history and characteristics of the defendant;
16 The need for the sentence imposed to reflect the
17 seriousness of the offense, to afford adequate deterrence, to
18 protect the public and to provide the defendant with needed
19 educational training, medical care or other correctional
20 treatment;
21 The kinds of sentences available;
22 The kinds of sentence in the sentencing range
23 established for the applicable category of offense committed
24 as set forth in the sentencing guidelines;
25 Any pertinent policy statement;
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1 The need to avoid sentencing disparity;
2 The need to provide restitution to victims.
3 This sentence meets the criteria of punishment,
4 deterrence and incapacitation and is sufficient but not
5 greater than necessary to comply with the directives of
6 Section 3553(a).
7 Based on these considerations I find this is a just
8 and appropriate sentence.
9 I considered all of the 3553(a) factors, but I want
10 to focus on a few of them in particular.
11 First off is the history and characteristics of
12 the defendant. What I learned from Mr. Marshall from your
13 submissions as well as from the letters was pretty
14 extraordinary. I don't want to go into much detail of it.
15 It's in the record. But, you know, Ms. Jackson has really led
16 an exemplary life as far as what she has done for her friends,
17 her family and her adopted community, as she and many others
18 have come here from Gary, Indiana, down to the Atlanta area.
19 I've read through these letters. And Ms. Chaiken
20 kind of beat me to it, but there's a letter from Tonya
21 Meadows and it notes that not many people get along with their
22 ex-husband's girlfriend, then wife; however, with Carla
23 everything was different. You know, that's a first time for
24 me, and I've been doing this for nine years, where you've got
25 the ex-wife of someone's husband writing a letter. I mean, I
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1 think that says a lot right there.
2 There was the letter from Reverend Winston discussing
3 the clothing drives, food distributions to the homeless,
4 sewing seeds in the community, both with time and treasure.
5 The letter from Patricia Williams talking about
6 standing out in line to get the child registered.
7 The letter from Michelle Simpson, again, talking
8 about helping the homeless. Sleeping bags and goody bags for
9 the homeless during the winter months. Patience with troubled
10 teens.
11 A letter from Lillian Berge (phonetic). Ms. Jackson
12 assisting with the initiation of a program designed to help
13 bring together parents of children who were murdered.
14 Letter from Kevin Smith talking about her helping
15 find mentors for young men and women in their lives,
16 volunteering to serve the homeless.
17 I mentioned earlier her brother when I gave my
18 condolences but also had a cousin murdered.
19 And a letter from Janice Walker talking about
20 stepping up to help a family injured from a car accident,
21 subsequently disabled, Ms. Jackson again becoming a caregiver.
22 Just a couple more I wanted to make note of.
23 Dion Booker's letter I think is representative of
24 many, talking about how she goes above and beyond as a role
25 model for family and friends.
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1 I was particularly touched by the letter from Cynthia
2 Range. And perhaps this isn't the biggest deal in the world,
3 but I think it told me a lot about Ms. Jackson. Ms. Range
4 talks about -- and I read a lot about this book club from all
5 the Gary, Indiana, transplants. I'm guessing there's some
6 book club members in the gallery. I'm just going to read this
7 paragraph into the record.
8 There was also a time when I was going through a
9 financial hard time. I earned enough money from my job to pay
10 all of my bills but not a lot of extra money left over. Our
11 sisterhood had decided to take a vacation. I let them know
12 that I could not go because of limited funds. We were at a
13 restaurant discussing the trip when Carla said to me that she
14 would pay for my trip and I could pay her back over time so it
15 would not affect my budget. I kept telling her, no, thank
16 you, but she spoke to me face to face and said that it was
17 okay and that she had been in the same position before. I'm
18 not the type of person who likes to take handouts, but Carla
19 talked to me from a very caring, compassionate and emotionally
20 safe place that I accepted and went on vacation with them.
21 I think that's really representative of everything
22 I've heard about her today and everything I've read about her
23 as I was reading through these letters the last couple of
24 days.
25 Then the very last one was at the top of my stack, at
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1 least, in what you submitted from Adrien Gaines. And he
2 writes about not even being comfortable calling -- being a
3 stepson because she was so wonderful to him and has been in
4 his life.
5 So, you know, I would say as to that sentencing
6 factor, history and characteristics of the defendant,
7 Mr. Marshall, you presented a case for your client that she
8 gets I think an A-plus grade on that factor. But I'm well
9 aware of the Howard case that the government cited, and I know
10 it's not my only job here to just look at the good deeds of
11 someone when I'm sentencing them. There are many other
12 factors.
13 And one that's tremendously important is the
14 seriousness of the offense and the circumstances of that
15 offense. And here the circumstances of the offense and the
16 seriousness are, in my view, quite serious. Hundreds of
17 thousands of dollars of money was laundered with Ms. Jackson's
18 assistance, and I can't let that go unpunished, even for
19 someone who, frankly, seems to be the Mother Theresa of the
20 Gary, Indiana, transplants here in Atlanta. I can't ignore
21 what she did. And I do think it needs to be deterred. I
22 think white-collar crime does need to be deterred. I heed the
23 precedent in this circuit about that.
24 I think general deterrence is important. And I would
25 agree with both Mr. Marshall and Ms. Chaiken that I don't
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1 think specific deterrence is a very big factor here.
2 I have considered the various sentences. And I have
3 considered the guidelines. This does represent a variance
4 from the guidelines, and I have opted to vary downward from
5 the guideline range here, not nearly as much as the defense
6 would have liked me to. But my sentence is not based just on
7 the history and characteristics of the defendant, it's based
8 on all of the guideline factors and the argument of the
9 government about remorse as well.
10 I also think it's important not to have disparate
11 sentences. And, obviously, this case is in some ways
12 different from many of the other sentences in this greater
13 case involving PPP fraud in that Ms. Jackson is charged just
14 with money laundering, and many of the others had different
15 charges. But as far as disparity is concerned, I think a lot
16 of the individuals in this case have been sentenced either at
17 the low end of the guidelines or there's been some slight
18 variances downward. And I think, from my experience in this
19 district, that is fairly typical of money laundering in that
20 the sentences are usually at the very low end of the
21 guidelines or even a variance down somewhat. So I think my
22 varying down a little more than one level into two levels
23 downward I think is very consistent with other sentences.
24 And I think it's also important that she not be
25 punished for going to trial. I think it's obvious to me based
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1 on the case that was presented that Ms. Jackson believed that
2 she should be found innocent and argued for that, and she's
3 not to be penalized for making that argument.
4 Mr. Marshall, does the defense request voluntarily
5 surrender?
6 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, your Honor. If possible, if we
7 could do that. There's been no violations. She's been fine
8 on supervision.
9 THE COURT: Ms. Chaiken, I assume no objection?
10 MS. CHAIKEN: Correct, your Honor, no objection.
11 THE COURT: How long would you like?
12 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, is it the position where they
13 just notify her when to surrender, that's normally what
14 happens?
15 THE COURT: Yes, unless you ask for some specific
16 amount.
17 MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: In which case I think I just say "not
19 before."
20 My sentence is concurrent as to both Counts 46 and
21 47. And there will be a $200 special assessment.
22 MR. MARSHALL: Judge, unless it's too long according
23 to the Court, four to six months out, if that's possible. I
24 know the sooner she starts, the sooner she gets done. She
25 does have to get her house in order. I think there's a course
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1 she's also taking, Judge, that she's trying to get finished,
2 but if that's a possibility. Maybe four months out if that's
3 possible.
4 THE COURT: Six seems to be a bit of a stretch to me
5 unless there's some -- you know, she's in the middle of a
6 program that ends in five-and-a-half months, that's one story.
7 But if it's just kind of a four to six months, that seems like
8 a lot. I mean, I haven't heard from the government yet, but
9 it's a little more than I'm accustomed to.
10 Ms. Chaiken?
11 MS. CHAIKEN: We don't object to four months, your
12 Honor. Six sounds a little long to us as well.
13 MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: So the defendant will report not before
15 September 16th, if I'm doing my math right, of this year.
16 Although I don't have the authority to select the
17 detention facility, I can recommend one. Is there any
18 particular request, Mr. Marshall?
19 MR. MARSHALL: Just generally as close to Atlanta as
20 possible, Judge.
21 THE COURT: I would say as close to Atlanta as
22 possible at a facility with the appropriate security level. I
23 would think she would be eligible for something very low
24 security.
25 I didn't see any need to recommend anything in
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1 particular as to substance abuse, mental health or vocational
2 training. Is there any desire on that front?
3 MR. MARSHALL: No, your Honor. And I'm not sure -- I
4 know BOP does the designations. I would assume that
5 Ms. Jackson's going to be at a low-level, you know, designated
6 facility. And to the extent that can include camp or whatever
7 the lowest is, that's what we're hoping the BOP will do for
8 her.
9 THE COURT: The record should reflect this sentence
10 would have been the same irrespective of my ruling on the
11 disputed guideline issues that I resolved in favor of the
12 government, both as to mitigating role and obstruction. In
13 other words, I would have sentenced the defendant to the same
14 term of incarceration even if I had not ruled as I did on
15 those issues.
16 There is an unobjected to proposed forfeiture order,
17 is that correct?
18 MR. MARSHALL: That's correct, Judge.
19 MR. BARNETT: That's correct, your Honor. I have
20 another copy if the Court would like.
21 THE COURT: Okay. I was -- my stack in this case was
22 fairly large, but I think I've got that.
23 Well, I don't have it handy, but I've reviewed it.
24 And Ms. Lee is indicating she can sign it for me
25 electronically, so I'll go ahead and sign off on that.
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1 MR. BARNETT: Thank you, your Honor. We just ask it
2 be announced as part of the sentence this afternoon.
3 THE COURT: If you want me to announce it, I'm still
4 going to have to find the copy of it.
5 I've granted the motion for forfeiture in the amount
6 of $39,700. Does that do it?
7 MR. BARNETT: I believe so, your Honor. It's
8 just mostly for forfeiture money judgment.
9 THE COURT: Very well. Granted.
10 Before I advise the defendant of her appeal rights,
11 does the government or defense have any further objections to
12 the findings of the Court, the guideline calculations or to
13 the sentence or manner in which it's been pronounced?
14 MS. CHAIKEN: No objection from the government, your
15 Honor.
16 MR. MARSHALL: Other than what's already been put on
17 the record, your Honor, no further ones.
18 THE COURT: Very well.
19 Ms. Jackson, you have the right to appeal your
20 conviction. You also have the statutory right to appeal your
21 sentence under certain circumstances, particularly if you
22 think the sentence is contrary to law. With few exceptions,
23 any notice of appeal must be filed within 14 days of judgment
24 being entered in your case.
25 If you're unable to pay for the cost of your appeal,
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1 you may apply for leave to appeal in forma pauperis, or
2 without payment of fees. If you so request, the Clerk of
3 Court will prepare and file a notice of appeal on your behalf.
4 On appeal, you may also apply for court-appointed counsel.
5 If you have any further questions about your right to
6 appeal, I'm sure that Mr. Marshall will be happy to advise you
7 further on this matter.
8 Ms. Jackson, do you have any questions about anything
9 I've said at today's sentencing hearing, ma'am?
10 THE DEFENDANT: No, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Counsel, is there anything else that we
12 need to discuss?
13 MS. CHAIKEN: May I have one moment, your Honor?
14 (Pause in the proceedings.)
15 MS. CHAIKEN: Nothing further, your Honor. Thank
16 you.
17 MR. MARSHALL: Nothing further, Judge.
18 THE COURT: All right. One moment.
19 I would add, I discussed this earlier, but I noted
20 that the sentence was sufficient but not greater than
21 necessary. The government asked for a low-end 41 months, and
22 I was originally leaning in that direction. And this was a
23 case in which that language hung me up, sufficient but not
24 greater than necessary. And I thought anything above three
25 years would have been greater than necessary in this case. I
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1 know it's maybe of some of us who are doing this week in, week
2 out, think five months isn't a big deal, but I think five
3 minutes is a big deal if you're going to hold someone in
4 custody. And I think that I didn't want to go above three
5 years here because I thought that would have been greater than
6 necessary just for the government's benefit to understand why
7 I went below the guidelines.
8 That's all I have.
9 Ms. Lee, thank you.
10 Ms. Coudriet, thank you.
11 My thanks also to the court security officer and our
12 probation officer.
13 Ms. Jackson, I don't take any pleasure in sentencing
14 you to prison, but I thought that's what the law demanded here
15 based on the jury's finding. I do commend you for all of your
16 good works in your community and vis-a-vis your family. I
17 noted in several of the letters that you're the type of person
18 who can take a knock and get back up. This, I would think,
19 would be considered one of the bigger knocks of your entire
20 life, and I hope that you can, consistent with how you've
21 handled adversity before, make the best of this and serve your
22 time.
23 I never like to talk about good time credits because
24 I never know exactly how those are going to play out, but if
25 you're available for those, I hope you're able to accumulate
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1 them and get out and continue to be a productive member of
2 society.
3 Best of luck to you, ma'am.
4 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you.
5 THE COURT: Yes, Ms. Chaiken.
6 MS. CHAIKEN: Your Honor, I'm very sorry. I am sure
7 you did this, but I just want to confirm -- because my
8 colleague and I were discussing a separate issue and I just
9 want to make sure that the defendant was advised of her appeal
10 rights. I'm sure she was, but I just wanted to confirm.
11 MR. MARSHALL: Did you advise of the 14-day period,
12 Judge?
13 THE COURT: I think I did but let me check my notes
14 in the rough transcript.
15 MS. CHAIKEN: Thank you, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Yes, I did, but thank you for double
17 checking.
18 MS. CHAIKEN: Thank you, your Honor. I'm sorry about
19 that.
20 THE COURT: Very well. We're adjourned.
21 (PROCEEDINGS REPORTED WERE CONCLUDED 3:49 P.M.)
22 ___________________________
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
4 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
5
6 I do hereby certify that the foregoing pages are a true
7 and correct transcript of the proceedings taken down by me in
8 the case aforesaid.
9
This the 14th Day of June, 2024.
10
11
12
13
14 ________________________________
15 PENNY PRITTY COUDRIET, RMR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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