Court filing
Information — United States v. Eric Shibley (Dkt. 132, W.D. Wash. No. 2:20-cr-00174)
Filed November 22, 2021 in Shibley; one of 139 filings from this case.
Record facts
| Court | U.S. District Court for the Western District of Washington |
|---|---|
| Filed | 2021-11-22 |
U.S. District Court for the Western District of Washington · No. 2:20-cr-00174-JCC · Doc. 132 · 2021-11-22 · Docket on CourtListener
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Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
Proceedings stenographically reported and transcript produced with computer-aided technology
November 17, 2021 - 383
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON AT SEATTLE
________________________________________________________________
)
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
v.
ERIC SHIBLEY,
Defendant.
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CR20-00174
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
November 17, 2021 -
9:00 A.M.
TRIAL - DAY 3
________________________________________________________________
VERBATIM REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE JOHN C. COUGHENOUR
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
________________________________________________________________
APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff:
Brian Werner
Assistant United States Attorney
700 Stewart Street, Suite 5220
Seattle, WA 98101
Laura Connelly
U.S. Department of Justice
Criminal Division
1400 New York Avenue N.W., RM 10100
Washington, D.C. 20530
For the Defendant:
Michael Nance
Attorney at Law
P.O. Box 11278
Bainbridge Island, WA 98110
Case 2:20-cr-00174-JCC Document 132 Filed 11/22/21 Page 1 of 175
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Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 384
EXAMINATION INDEX
EXAMINATION OF
PAGE
MITCHELL MONDALA
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WERNER
385
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE
398
DAVID MADRID
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WERNER
407
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE
421
LISA VELOTTA
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CONNELLY
428
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE
433
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CONNELLY
435
MICHAEL PETRON
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CONNELLY
436
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE
468
ERIC SHIBLEY
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE
480
EXHIBIT INDEX
EXHIBITS ADMITTED
PAGE
A-1
523
A-2
519
A-3
513
A-4
508
53
387
109 - 111, 113 - 116, 118, 119, 121 - 129,
131 - 135, 137, 142, 144 - 171, 173 - 177, 179 -
186,
188 - 198 and 200 - 203
441
112
391
204
393
208
439
209
461
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 385
THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?
MS. CONNELLY: Yes, from the government.
MR. NANCE: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Bring them in.
(The following occurred in the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: Good morning folks, please be seated. Did
any of you lose power during the windstorm? We still don't have
power up on Whidbey Island. Yeah, it's long miserable nights.
All right.
MR. WERNER: The government calls Mitchell Mondala.
MITCHELL MONDALA,
having been sworn under oath, testified as follows:
THE COURT: Please be seated, and take your mask off,
please.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WERNER:
Q
Good morning.
A
Good morning, sir.
Q
Please state your name and spell your last name.
A
First is Mitchell, last is Mondala. And it's spelled: M as
in Mary, O as in ocean, N as in Nora, D as in delta, A as in
alpha, L as in lima, A as in alpha.
Q
Mr. Mondala, where do you work?
A
I work for BECU, Boeing Employees Credit Union.
Case 2:20-cr-00174-JCC Document 132 Filed 11/22/21 Page 3 of 175
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 386
Q
What do you do for BECU?
A
I'm one of the investigators in the fraud operations
division.
Q
How long have you worked for BECU?
A
Just over 20 years.
Q
And what have been your positions during those 20 years?
A
My positions have ranged from being an investigator to also
running the day-to-day physical security operations, which
consist of monitoring our camera, alarm systems, and guard force.
Q
And what are your duties as a fraud investigator?
A
Our primary role is to protect the safety and soundness of
the credit union and its membership. And within that framework,
identify any unusual behavior or transactions that exploit
financially the organization and its membership and minimize
those risks.
Q
Mr. Mondala, as part of your job at BECU, are you familiar
with the business records of BECU?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Mr. Mondala, did you review accounts and records at BECU
related to Eric Shibley?
A
Yes, I did.
Q
Did Mr. Shibley apply for PPP or Paycheck Protection Program
loans at BECU?
A
Yes, he did.
Q
Were those loans granted?
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 387
A
No, they were not.
Q
Mr. Mondala, I'm going to show you what has been marked as
Exhibit 53. And Exhibit 53 is an 11-page document. Are you
familiar with Exhibit 53?
A
Yes, I am.
Q
What is Exhibit 53?
A
This is an e-mail correspondence between a BECU employee and
Mr. Shibley regarding the PPP loan applications.
Q
And is this e-mail maintained in the regular course of BECU's
business?
A
Yes, it is.
MR. WERNER: Your Honor, I offer Exhibit 53.
MR. NANCE: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
(Exhibit No. 53 admitted.)
MR. WERNER: Can we publish? Or I will publish.
Q
Mr. Arnold, can we go to the bottom of page 3 of Exhibit 53,
please?
And Mr. Mondala, is this the first page in the e-mail
exchange between the BECU employee and Mr. Shibley?
A
Yes, sir, it is.
Q
Who is the BECU employee you referenced?
A
John Garcia.
Q
What is Mr. Garcia's position?
A
He works in our small business department.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 388
Q
And what is the date of this e-mail?
A
Saturday, April 25th.
Q
And what was -- I'm sorry, what year?
A
I'm sorry. Saturday, April 25th, 2020.
Q
And in April of 2020, what, if anything, was Mr. Garcia's
role in PPP loans at BECU?
A
He was helping the funding and processing of PPP loans for
our business members.
Q
In general, what is -- what is this e-mail about? Why is
Mr. Garcia sending ers98126 an e-mail?
A
Because of the information in the packet and the application
that needed to be resolved. He had some questions about the
packet and the documents that were provided.
Q
And I said "ers98126." Who is the e-mail addressed to in the
body of the e-mail?
A
Mr. Shibley. Mr. Eric Shibley.
Q
It says, "Hi Eric."
A
Yes, it does.
Q
And can I go -- if we can go to the page 2 of the e-mail,
please. Actually, let's go to the bottom of page 1.
Does Mr. Garcia send another e-mail to Mr. Shibley on
April 25th?
A
Yes, he does.
Q
And what is the second e-mail we're looking at, at the bottom
of page 1? What is that? Generally, again, what is that e-mail
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 389
about?
A
It appears to be a correspondence between Mr. Garcia and
Mr. Shibley, responding to his original e-mail. And then
Mr. Garcia is asking for additional clarifying information as
well, from the documents that were provided.
Q
And what business is this PPP -- what business is this e-mail
string about? Can you tell from the subject line?
A
Yeah. Yes. Business account for ES1.
Q
And let's look at the e-mail in between here, from ers98126.
Could we go down to the top of page 3, please, Mr. Arnold?
I'm sorry, I'm looking for the top of page 3. And is this an
e-mail, displayed on the screen now; is this an e-mail from
ers98126, or Mr. Shibley, to Mr. Garcia?
A
Yes, sir, it is.
Q
And, again, generally what is Mr. Shibley saying in response
to Mr. Garcia's requests?
A
He's responding to the questions of the tax documents that he
was asking for, the W-3, and the year, and the lists for the
payroll information, specifically. And the terms, I believe,
that -- the timeframe for the payroll.
Q
Mr. Shibley represents that the form W-3 for 2019 lists the
entire 2019 payroll?
MR. NANCE: The e-mail speaks for itself.
THE COURT: Sustained.
A
That's correct, yes, sir.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 390
THE COURT: No, don't answer the question if I sustain
the objection.
THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
Q
And, again, at the bottom of page 1 of the e-mail, we saw a
second e-mail, again from Mr. Garcia, correct?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And are there additional requests in this e-mail?
A
Yes. He asks for an update, the monthly payroll on the
application that reflected the amount.
Q
And if we can zoom out, please.
And at the top, the top e-mail reflected on page 1 -- if we
could call that out, please, Mr. Arnold -- does ers98126, Mr.
Shibley, again respond to Mr. Garcia?
A
Yes, sir, he does.
Q
And is this the response displayed on the screen?
A
Yes, sir, it is.
Q
And does Mr. Shibley respond, "The tax filings are attached."
A
Yes. Yes, he does.
Q
And are there attachments to this e-mail?
A
Yes, there is.
Q
Can we look at the attachment, please?
And is this the attachment to the e-mail?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
Is this a Form 941 for 2020 for the business ES1 LLC?
A
Yes, it is.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 391
Q
This is what Mr. Shibley described as tax filings?
A
That's correct. Yes, sir.
Q
We can take that down now. Thank you.
I'm going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 112.
Do you recognize Exhibit 112?
A
Yes, I do.
Q
And generally, what is that document?
A
That's a document for a large cash withdrawal request that
would be completed by a BECU employee on behalf of one of our
members.
Q
Who is the member that this request was -- who was the
member?
A
Mr. Eric Shibley.
Q
And I'm going to show you -- is this record created in the
normal course of business at BECU?
A
Yes, sir, it is.
Q
At or about the time of the events reflected in the record?
A
That's correct, yes, sir.
MR. WERNER: Offer Exhibit 112.
MR. NANCE: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
(Exhibit No. 112 admitted.)
MR. WERNER: Could we publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q
And, again, this is a -- what is this document, again, Mr.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 392
Mondala?
A
It's a large cash withdrawal request.
Q
Who is the member?
A
Mr. Eric Shibley.
Q
And what's the date of the large cash withdrawal request?
A
May 13th, 2020.
Q
And where was this large cash withdrawal request made?
A
In our Tukwila Financial Center.
Q
Did you review any footage of the Tukwila Financial Center
from May 13, 2020?
A
Yes, I did.
Q
Can we show Mr. Mondala what's been marked as Exhibit 204?
I'm showing you now the first page of Exhibit 204. And I'm
going to ask Mr. Arnold to show you the second page of
Exhibit 204.
Do you recognize Exhibit 204?
A
Yes, sir, I do.
Q
What are those?
A
They're images of Mr. Eric Shibley and also our BECU
employee.
Q
What's the date?
A
May 13th, 2020.
MR. WERNER: Offer Exhibit 204.
MR. NANCE: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 393
(Exhibit No. 204 admitted.)
Q
And what is depicted in the first page of Exhibit 204?
A
This is a camera image of our parking lot and upcoming foot
traffic into our main facility, the main entry.
Q
And where is that facility?
A
Tukwila.
Q
And were you able to identify the individual depicted in the
first -- in Exhibit 204?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Who is that?
A
That's Mr. Eric Shibley.
Q
And let's look at the second page, please. What is this
image?
A
This is also an image of Mr. Eric Shibley and our BECU
employee, inside our Tukwila Financial Center.
Q
What date?
A
May 13th, 2020.
Q
How does this -- how do these images relate to what we just
saw admitted as Exhibit 212?
A
It relates to corresponding that this was the interaction for
the request of a large cash withdrawal request.
Q
Let's go back to Exhibit 112. If we could just blow out the
top part, please. And so what is the businesses name -- what is
the name on the account for this large cash request?
A
Dituri Construction LLC.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 394
Q
And what is the date that account was opened?
A
May 1st, 2020.
Q
And is that depicted -- is that on the "date of membership"
line?
A
That is correct. Yes, sir.
Q
And what other information is collected by this form?
A
The location where the cash is expected to be picked up. The
date that the member would expect the funds. And there's also
information about maybe the source of the funds, the purpose of
the funds, and any contact information. And also the employee
name and the date of the original request.
Q
Does it also -- does its have a -- a location for how long
the funds have been on deposit?
A
That is correct. Yes, it does.
Q
Why is that information in there? Why is where the funds
came from, why is that on this request?
A
It helps us make a determination as to whether the funds can
be released or not.
Q
In the course of your duties as a BECU fraud investigator,
did you receive this document, Exhibit 112?
A
Yes, I did.
Q
And what did you do in response to receiving this document?
A
When I got the document, and looking at the dollar amount, it
triggered what I felt was an analysis that needed to be conducted
on Mr. Shibley's business account, Dituri Construction, and his
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 395
overall profile, to try to determine if the withdrawal can be
approved.
Q
And did you conduct that analysis?
A
Yes, sir, I did.
Q
What types of things did you look at?
A
First, I did confirm that the account was established on
May 1st, 2020, the business account. I then, in turn, looked
over the profile and identified Mr. Shibley also had five other
business profiles with BECU, for a total of six. And three of
those accounts were established in 2019, with the following three
established in 2020, in April and of May of 2020.
Q
And so that's the accounts. You examined Mr. Shibley's
accounts. Did you examine anything else of Mr. Shibley's
interactions with BECU?
A
Correct. And I also then in turn started looking at the
account activity for the business accounts, and noticed that
there was limited to -- zero activity within the last six months.
Q
And these other business accounts, had Mr. Shibley applied
for loans in those names?
A
Yes, he did.
Q
And what business did he apply for loans for?
A
It was action ES1 and Shibley -- Eric Shibley M.D.
Q
Were those PPP loans?
A
These were government PPP loans, yes.
Q
Those loans were declined?
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 396
A
Those loans were declined, yes.
Q
After doing this analysis, what did you do next?
A
After that, I also -- looking at it, while we were conducting
our analysis, we also were able to identify that another PPP loan
came into an account, another business account, SS1 LLC, for
$820,000.
Q
What did you notice about that business account?
A
That business account was also opened in 2020, on April of
2020.
Q
Did you contact Mr. Shibley?
A
After that information, we felt it was necessary to contact
Mr. Shibley to validate the validity of the large cash withdrawal
request.
Q
About what date did you contact Mr. Shibley?
A
On or about May 20th, 2020.
Q
What did you do to contact Mr. Shibley?
A
I called his phone number on file.
Q
And how did you begin the conversation with the person who
answered the phone?
A
I identified myself as a BECU representative in the fraud
operations division, and I wanted to discuss the request for the
withdrawal.
Q
Did the person identify himself as Mr. Shibley?
A
I'm sorry?
Q
Did the person identify himself as Mr. Shibley?
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 397
A
Yes, he did.
Q
What did you ask Mr. Shibley?
A
I asked Mr. Shibley to validate the purpose for the request.
Q
What did he say?
A
He said it was to pay his employees.
Q
And what did you say in response to that?
A
I let him know our concerns of having that amount of cash,
and offered alternatives of official checks to make payable to
his employees.
Q
What did Mr. Shibley say in response to that?
A
He said there would be challenges with that, because some of
his employees did not have social security numbers.
Q
Did he accept your offer to convert the money to checks?
A
He did not.
Q
Did Mr. Shibley mention anything else on this phone call?
A
Yes, he did. He did also mention that the $800,000 loan that
was supposed to be coming in, or had come in at that time, he
would be expecting that also in cash.
Q
Did you authorize -- did you tell Mr. Shibley whether or not
BECU would authorize this cash withdrawal, on this phone call?
A
Yes, I did. I told him that we would not allow the
withdrawal.
Q
What were the factors that went into BECU's decision not to
allow this withdrawal?
A
The factors were specifically that we had multiple accounts,
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 398
six in total, that had limited to no activity in the last six
months. Two of the business accounts that received these PPP
loans were just recently established in at BECU, in April and
May. We felt that those business accounts were established
solely to receive these PPP loans. And the fact that those --
the cash was going to be paid for undocumented workers -- or,
excuse me --
MR. NANCE: Objection, Your Honor. This is speculation.
He doesn't know.
THE COURT: Overruled. You can ask another question.
Q
What happened to the money from -- the money that's
referenced in Exhibit 112, the external deposit from Celtic Bank?
A
It was returned to Celtic Bank.
Q
After this -- after the attempts to withdraw it?
A
That's correct. It was returned. Correct.
Q
What about the other loan, the approximately $800,000 loan?
A
That was also returned.
Q
To the original -- to the funding bank?
A
Correct, to the -- correct.
MR. WERNER: No further questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Cross-examination.
MR. NANCE: Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE:
Q
Good morning, Mr. Mondala.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 399
A
Good morning, sir.
Q
So you have worked at Boeing Employees Credit Union for
20 years?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
In the security division, right?
A
Nineteen years in the security division.
Q
And you are a senior investigator?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
I assume that -- maybe I will just ask you. Is the security
division of the BECU separate and apart from the marketing
division of BECU?
A
Yes, sir, it is.
Q
I mean, there is a marketing division?
A
Yes, there is.
Q
That promotes the bank's or the credit union's services?
A
Correct. Yes, sir.
Q
That would have been active in promoting the PPP loan
program?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
To prospective borrowers?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And obviously that would have been a major revenue-generating
area for the credit union, for BECU?
A
I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know
about that.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 400
Q
Okay. BECU is an approved SBA lender; is that correct?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
Yeah. You are not sure?
A
Beg your pardon?
Q
You are not sure?
A
No. No, they are. Yes.
Q
Okay. From BECU's perspective, how was a normal business
loan different from a PPP loan? Or from your perspective in the
security department, how would it be different?
A
I'm not sure that they can be different. Other than --
Q
Do you know how much PPP business BECU did last year?
A
I don't.
Q
You don't know how much BECU generated in lender fees?
A
I do not.
Q
On PPP loans?
A
I do not, sir, no.
Q
Typically when you investigate a PPP application, do you
speak directly with the applicant?
A
I do not, no.
Q
You have contact information. You could, I suppose, if you
chose to?
A
I suppose I could, yes, if I wanted. Yes.
Q
You've indicated in the past that you use what you refer to
as internet forensics?
A
Correct.
Case 2:20-cr-00174-JCC Document 132 Filed 11/22/21 Page 18 of 175
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 401
Q
What do you mean by that?
A
Open source or Google searches, internet searches.
Q
You were able to confirm that Mr. Shibley's -- Mr. Shibley
and his LLCs had tax IDs, identification numbers, with the state,
weren't you?
A
Yes, I was.
Q
And, in fact, were able to verify there was a company
registration with the Secretary of State?
A
Yes, I was.
Q
And you have indicated that he did have several business
accounts with BECU?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Some that had been open for a couple of years?
A
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q
And so you first had contact directly with Mr. Shibley in --
was it May 13th, or was it sometime after that?
A
It was after that.
Q
Do you know when?
A
It was May 20th. May 20th, 2020.
Q
This was subsequent to his attempt to withdraw a large cash
amount from one of his accounts?
A
Yes.
Q
This was PPP money that had gone into his account or his
LLC's account?
A
That's correct.
Case 2:20-cr-00174-JCC Document 132 Filed 11/22/21 Page 19 of 175
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 402
Q
So you talked to him by phone. He identified himself to you?
A
Yes, he did.
Q
And you asked him, and he told you that he, in fact, wanted
to make this large cash withdrawal?
A
Yes, he did.
Q
He confirmed essentially what he had already done in person
earlier?
A
Yes, he did. Yes, he did.
Q
Frankly told you that he wanted to pay his employees in cash?
A
Yes, he did.
Q
This would be consistent with what was reflected, I think, in
Exhibit 204, right?
Could we pull that up, 204? Maybe I have got the wrong one.
Maybe it's 112. Excuse me, 112. If you could just blow up the
top half of that. Yeah.
So what he told you in the phone call would have been
generally consistent with what's reflected in this document?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
He told you he wanted to pay payroll of his workers; is that
right?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And I see "best contact phone number." Is that his phone?
A
That's -- yes, it is. That's the phone number he provided.
Q
So you had a way to reach him, again, if you needed to?
A
Yes, sir.
Case 2:20-cr-00174-JCC Document 132 Filed 11/22/21 Page 20 of 175
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 403
Q
And who is Tyler Cummings?
A
He's a BECU employee.
Q
Is he the person that met with Mr. Shibley on the 13th?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Is he the person depicted in the photo we saw?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Okay. Okay. You can take that down. Thank you.
Well, you asked him a little further -- I mean, you offered,
it sounds like, to cut checks to him for these amounts, or for
the employees?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And he declined that, saying that it wouldn't really be of
much use to his employees because they lacked social security
numbers?
A
Correct.
Q
He was up front about that aspect?
A
Yes. Yes.
Q
Did he remark on these employees not having bank accounts?
A
No, he did not.
Q
In your experience as a financial-security person, does a
person who lacks a social security number, are they typically
able to have a bank account?
A
No.
Q
A person walks into BECU and wants to open an account, and
they don't have a social security number, the credit union would
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 404
probably say: Sorry, can't do it?
A
Correct.
Q
If a person walked into BECU with a check paid to them, but
didn't have any ID, wouldn't that also present a problem?
A
Yes, it would.
Q
You wouldn't cash it. The bank wouldn't cash it?
A
Yes.
Q
So he told you he needed cash. He needed the cash?
A
Yes.
Q
He never really backed away from that position. He needed
the cash?
A
Correct.
Q
In fact, he went further. He said: Well, not only do I need
this cash, but there's another large sum coming, I'm expecting
it, in the neighborhood of $800,000, right?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And it's coming to one of these accounts. And he would like
to withdraw a good portion of that?
A
Correct.
Q
And it sounds like at that point the two of you just kind of
agreed to disagree?
A
Correct.
Q
You couldn't encourage that because you didn't think you
would be able to allow it?
A
Say that again.
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 405
Q
Well, you didn't -- obviously you didn't agree that that
could happen. Didn't you tell him that probably that wouldn't be
allowed?
A
That's correct, yes.
Q
In that call, in that first call?
A
Yes, I did. Yes, I did.
Q
Then the call ended, essentially?
A
Yes, it did.
Q
Did you have a second phone call with Mr. Shibley?
A
I did, yes.
Q
When was that?
A
I believe that was on or about the 27th of May, I believe.
The 27th of May 2020.
Q
Nothing had changed the position of the bank, though, in that
call?
A
As far as the -- maybe --
Q
You didn't change your mind. You didn't agree to release
funds?
A
Correct. We did not.
Q
Now, you and Mr. Shibley never actually met in person?
A
No, sir. Never.
Q
You have never spoken to him face-to-face?
A
Never spoken face-to-face, no.
Q
And these calls between you and Mr. Shibley were not
recorded?
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MITCHELL MONDALA - Cross (Mondala)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 406
A
They were not.
Q
You are not that familiar, are you, with his business
operations?
A
No, I'm not.
Q
You didn't visit -- you never met him; but you didn't go to
his business office or talk to anyone at his business office?
A
No, I did not.
Q
Never went to the worksite of any of his businesses?
A
Did not.
Q
Or spoke to anyone else at Dituri Construction?
A
I did not.
Q
Or anyone at SS1?
A
I did not.
Q
Didn't speak to any of his employees?
A
I did not.
MR. NANCE: Thank you, sir.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. WERNER: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. Put your
mask back on.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. WERNER: The government calls David Madrid.
DAVID MADRID,
having been sworn under oath, testified as follows:
THE COURT: Be seated and take your mask off, please.
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 407
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WERNER:
Q
Good morning.
A
Good morning.
Q
Please state your name and spell your last name.
A
David Madrid, M-A-D-R-I-D.
Q
Mr. Madrid, where do you work?
A
I work in Tacoma at John S. Realty.
Q
Are you -- what's your position at John S. Realty?
A
I'm a broker.
Q
How long have you been in that position?
A
Almost eight years now.
Q
Do you know Eric Shibley?
A
Yes, I do.
Q
About when did you meet Eric Shibley?
A
It would have been, like, around March or April of 2018.
Q
And did you meet him in your capacity as a real estate agent?
A
Yes.
Q
And from 2018 until about mid-2020, in that two-year period,
how often did you speak with Mr. Shibley?
A
It would vary. Sometimes, depending on what he was working
on, and I was doing research, we'd talk a lot. Other times, it
would be sometimes weeks.
Q
And generally, what would you talk to Mr. Shibley about?
A
Pretty much mostly real estate.
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 408
Q
When you met Mr. Shibley in 2018, what was his job?
A
I learned that he was a doctor.
Q
Did you learn that from Mr. Shibley?
A
Yes. Actually, first of all, he told me he was a real estate
broker. But that's another story.
Q
And later did he tell you that he was a doctor?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you visit his doctor's office?
A
Yes.
Q
Where?
A
Everett, Washington. Up by the Everett Mall.
Q
And how big was that office?
A
I'd say 2,500 square feet, or so.
Q
Did you see anyone working there, besides Mr. Shibley?
A
No.
Q
Did he ever have a different doctor's office?
A
Yes.
Q
Where was that?
A
In West Seattle.
Q
And did you visit that doctor's office?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you ever see anyone working there in the doctor's office,
besides Mr. Shibley?
A
No.
Q
So again, could you describe -- what would you talk to Mr.
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 409
Shibley about?
A
Well, he would purchase properties and try to rehab them and
get them ready for sale and/or rent.
Q
And how did you come across Mr. Shibley?
A
He called me on a property. I had listed a commercial piece
of property in White Center, Washington.
Q
Did Mr. Shibley ever purchase that property?
A
He made an offer, but it never closed.
Q
Did Mr. -- did you ever help Mr. Shibley sell any properties?
A
Yes, I did.
Q
Where were those properties?
A
One was in Marysville, Washington and one was in Mount
Vernon, Washington.
Q
And the Marysville property, was it commercial, residential?
A
It was residential.
Q
And when was that sold?
A
That would have been sold right around -- I'm going to say
early 2019.
Q
Did you visit that property?
A
Yes.
Q
What did you observe? Did you ever observe anyone working
at -- any construction work being done on the Marysville
property?
A
I never observed anybody doing any work.
Q
Did you notice that work had been done?
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 410
A
Minimal work, that I noticed.
Q
Did you visit the Mount Vernon property?
A
Yes.
Q
Was that a residential property or a commercial property?
A
Yes, it was residential.
Q
And did you ever observe anyone working, doing construction
work on the Mount Vernon property?
A
Not construction, no.
Q
Did you observe people doing other types of work on it?
A
There was a guy staying in one of the bedrooms, that said he
was cleaning up most of the time.
Q
Were you ever the real estate agent on a property that Mr.
Shibley purchased?
A
Yes. I listed three of his properties that he owned.
Q
But did you ever -- did Mr. Shibley own other properties,
besides the ones we have talked about, Marysville and Mount
Vernon? Did he own other properties?
A
Yes.
Q
Were you the real estate agent when he purchased those
properties?
A
No.
Q
As a real estate agent, Mr. Madrid, do you work with
contractors?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you refer your clients to contractors?
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 411
A
Yes.
Q
Did you ever refer your clients to Eric Shibley for
contractor work?
A
No.
Q
From the time you knew Mr. Shibley, from 2018 to 2020, was he
a contractor?
A
No.
Q
Did Mr. Shibley have a contractor business?
A
No.
Q
Did you ever see --
A
Not that I know of.
THE COURT: I'm sorry.
Q
Did you ever see him get paid for a contractor job?
MR. NANCE: Objection, foundation.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q
You may answer. Did you ever see Mr. Shibley get paid for a
contractor job?
A
No.
Q
Had you ever heard of a company, during the time you knew
Mr. Shibley, 2018 to 2020, have you ever heard of a company
called A Team Holdings?
A
No.
Q
A company called Dituri Construction?
A
No.
Q
A company called SS1?
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 412
A
I knew of one ES1, but not an SS1.
Q
What did you know about ES1?
A
When he would make offers on properties, he would use ES1
LLC. And that's the name of the purchaser that would be --
Q
Did you know Mr. Shibley to have a contractor business in any
of those names that we just discussed?
A
No.
Q
You mentioned that Mr. Shibley owned other properties during
the time you knew him from 2018 to 2020. Where were those
properties located?
A
The property he owned in West Seattle was his office/home.
The property in South Park on Donovan Street. He also owned one
on Memorial Drive -- Des Moines Way South, Memorial Drive. And
then he also owned one on Fifth Avenue South.
Q
I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 100 --
what's been admitted as Exhibit 100. Do you recognize what's
depicted in Exhibit 100?
A
I sure do.
Q
What is that?
A
That's Mr. Shibley's office/home.
Q
Have you visited this property before?
A
Yes.
Q
What did you observe inside this property?
A
When I went there, it was, you know, kind of like nobody --
MR. NANCE: I would --
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 413
THE COURT: Excuse me.
MR. NANCE: I would ask that it be -- could we get some
idea of the time different things are happening?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q
(By Mr. Werner:) Did you visit this property from 2018 to
2020?
A
Yes.
Q
How many times.
A
Probably five times. Four or five times.
Q
And over that time did it look different, the times you went
in there?
A
Yes.
Q
How did it look the first time you went in there?
A
The first time I went in there, it was just dark. And
Mr. Shibley had an office behind the counter. There was a
reception counter. He had an office back there. We went in
there and we talked. I never really looked through the whole
place. It was a bit messy, but okay.
Q
How did it change over time, if at all?
A
The last couple of times I saw it, it had been ransacked and
gone through. It was a disaster.
Q
Did you ever see anyone doing construction work inside this
building, Exhibit 100?
A
No, sir.
Q
Did you ever list this property for sale?
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 414
A
No, sir.
Q
The next property -- if you could take that down, please --
the next property you mentioned was on Donovan Street in South
Park?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Did you visit the Donovan Street property from between the
times of 2018 to 2020?
A
Absolutely.
Q
Approximately how many times?
A
Probably 15 to 20.
Q
And what is the Donovan Street property, is it a residence?
A
Residential.
Q
Did you see work, construction work being done on the
property?
A
Yes.
Q
How many people were working on the property -- how many
people did you observe at any one time when you went to the
Donovan Street property?
A
At any one time I would see maybe one to three people
working.
Q
And over 2018 to 2020, over all the times you went there, how
many different individuals did you observe doing construction
work on the Donovan Street property?
A
Ten. That's a guesstimate. I never counted them.
Q
Did the people there appear to be professional contractors?
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 415
A
No.
Q
Were they wearing similar clothing or uniforms?
A
No.
Q
What did you observe about the work that was being done at
Donovan Street?
A
Well, as I said, I have been there many times, so there was
always something going on. And it was -- it was just kind of a
remodel-type work. And, you know, they were trying to make it as
best they could.
Q
And did Mr. Shibley say anything to you about how he
compensated people working on that property?
A
Yes.
Q
What did he say?
A
Well, most of the time he said all he had to do was provide
them a place to stay and something to eat.
Q
Did you observe people living in the Donovan Street property?
A
Yes.
Q
Can you describe where individuals were living in that
property?
A
There was a family living on the main floor, after the
remodel was done. And then there was another guy living
downstairs in the basement. And then there was two sheds out
back, and he had individuals living in those.
Q
Did you ever see Mr. Shibley pay anyone who was working at
the Donovan Street property?
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 416
A
No.
Q
Did you list the Donovan Street property for sale?
A
Yes.
Q
What did you list it for?
A
The first time I listed it, I think it was for, like,
$650,000.
Q
When was that?
A
That would have been in '19 -- the year 2019. The first time
we only listed it for, like, two weeks. And then he decided to
do something else.
Q
And did you list it a second time?
A
Yes.
Q
What year was that?
A
2020.
Q
What did you list it for?
A
550.
Q
Did it sell?
A
No.
Q
And for our record, 550, does that mean $550,000?
A
$550,000, I'm sorry. I might have got mixed up, because we
listed three properties all the same day. But I'm pretty sure
Donovan was at 550.
Q
If it was a different amount, was it close to 550?
A
Absolutely.
Q
The next property, the third property you mentioned
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 417
Mr. Shibley owning, was in Des Moines. Is that Des Moines Way?
A
Yes. Des Moines Way South.
Q
Did you visit the Des Moines Way South property?
A
Yes.
Q
Between 2018 and 2020?
A
Yes.
Q
About how many times?
A
Probably about ten times.
Q
Can you describe this property?
A
Well, there's a beginning and there's an end. At the
beginning, you couldn't even see the property, it was completely
grown over by shrubs and trees and things. And so by the end, it
was -- the front yard was cleared. And there was always work
being done interior-wise.
Q
And who did the clearing of the shrubs?
A
There was a number of people that were doing the clearing,
that I would see off and on. And then one of my clients
befriended Mr. Shibley, and he owned a little mini tractor. So
he was doing some of the work. Unfortunately, he's no longer
with us and he should have never been on that tractor. But
that's a whole other story.
Q
Did your friend work for Mr. -- did your friend -- was your
friend an employee of Mr. Shibley's?
A
No.
Q
He had his own business?
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 418
A
No. He just was one of the guys and he was trying to help
Eric. And Eric was paying him for dump runs, and stuff like
that.
Q
How many different people did you see working on the Des
Moines Way property?
A
Off and on, probably ten.
Q
And, again, at any given time, how many people were there
when you visited the property?
A
Two or three.
Q
So again, that's ten different people over a two-year period?
A
Yes.
Q
Again, did you observe people living in the Des Moines Way
property?
A
Most of the people that worked there, lived there.
Q
Describe where they lived.
A
There was a few people living in the basement. And then
there was another guy that was living in the garage. And then
once in a while I would see, like, blankets or something in,
like, a spare room just thrown on the floor. So I assumed people
stayed there. I never saw them sleeping there or anything like
that.
Q
Did you ever see Mr. Shibley pay anyone that was doing work
at the Des Moines Way property?
A
No.
Q
Did you list the Des Moines Way property for sale?
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 419
A
Yes.
Q
When?
A
That was -- I think it was, like, October of 2020.
Q
And how much did you list it for?
A
I think that one, we listed it for $450,000.
MR. NANCE: This is not relevant. It's beyond really
the -- October 2020 is beyond the period of --
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. NANCE: Move to strike it.
THE COURT: No. It's a little late.
Q
Did you ever list the property for sale before October 2020?
A
No.
Q
Lastly, you mentioned a Fifth Avenue South property. Do you
recall that?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you visit that property?
A
Yes.
Q
How many times?
A
Probably four or five times.
Q
How would you describe that property?
A
Like a rental property.
Q
Is it a residence?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Did you ever go inside that property?
A
No.
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DAVID MADRID - Direct (Werner)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 420
Q
Why not?
A
They weren't real nice people living inside.
Q
What happened when you went there?
A
I was threatened.
Q
And specifically what happened?
A
Well, I went to the property, and there was some --
MR. NANCE: Objection, relevance.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q
Why did you go to the property?
A
I had it on the market. I listed it. Mr. Shibley and I had
listed that property. And then at that time, I had to, you know,
be able to, you know, sell the property. So I had to get inside.
So when I went there, I was screamed at, yelled at by a very
large man and a couple of other guys. And they came out, and --
Q
Didn't let you in?
A
No. They did not let me in. They came out with, like, pipes
and stuff like that. Chasing me. So I got the heck out of
there.
Q
And, again, did you list that property in 2020?
A
Yes.
Q
Did it sell?
A
No.
Q
What did you list it for?
A
I think that one also was $450,000.
MR. WERNER: Just a second, Your Honor.
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DAVID MADRID - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 421
No further questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Cross.
You folks can stand up and stretch, if you want.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE:
Q
Hi, Mr. Madrid.
A
Hi, Mike. How are you?
Q
I think we have spoken a couple of times in the past?
A
Yes, we have.
Q
It's nice to finally meet you face-to-face.
A
It's nice to meet you.
Q
You first met Eric Shibley about four years ago?
A
In 2018ish. Early 2018.
Q
And you considered this, always considered this a business
relationship, didn't you?
A
Yes.
Q
You were and you still are a licensed real estate agent?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Very basically, you earn a commission when you bring together
buyers and sellers of a piece of real estate?
A
Correct.
Q
That's how you make your living?
A
That's right.
Q
You helped Mr. Shibley sell at least two of his properties in
the past; is that right?
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DAVID MADRID - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 422
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Yeah.
And you have described listing three other properties that
you have listed for him, here in West Seattle?
A
Nothing in West Seattle. In White Center.
Q
Okay. I'm sorry.
A
South Park area. Yes, sir.
Q
Okay. You've -- you've tried to work with Mr. Shibley in the
best way that you can?
A
Yes.
Q
You've --
A
Sometimes I didn't want to work for him, as you know.
Q
Okay. You have loaned him money in the past --
A
Yes.
Q
-- for example. You have paid some of his bills in the past?
A
No.
Q
No? Okay.
Have you -- you have tried to put him in contact, be in touch
with lenders that you know?
A
Yes.
Q
You knew that he was in the rental -- or aspired to be in the
rental business --
A
Yes.
Q
-- buying properties?
A
Yes. I know he was doing that.
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DAVID MADRID - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 423
Q
Renovating it.
THE COURT: One at a time, please.
A
Yeah.
Q
Did you perceive him as being in the house-flipping business?
A
50/50 flipping and renting.
Q
Okay. And obviously you knew that he owned these properties
that he was using as rental properties?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
He was collecting rent?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
Do you know how the tenants paid the rent?
A
I know what Mr. Shibley told me. Some of his tenants paid.
There was a government agency that paid their rent, if he
provided them with living quarters.
Q
Okay. Are you familiar with the HEN program?
A
The what?
Q
The HEN, the HEN program through the State of Washington.
Does that ring a bell?
A
No, I don't know what that -- specifically of that program.
I never heard of it. But any program Mr. Shibley, he never gave
me a name on what he was getting, he just told he how it worked.
Q
Are you familiar with other housing-assistance programs,
subsidizing --
A
The only one that I'm really familiar with is when we get a
down payment assistance program for people.
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DAVID MADRID - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 424
Q
Okay. You were asked about some of these various businesses,
these LLCs. I think you said you knew about ES1?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
And that was because it was -- that was the entity that was,
what, listed as one of the owners of --
A
It was when Eric was going to make an offer on a property,
which he did quite a bit. So occasionally he would use that name
or some other name.
Q
Okay.
A
ES1, though, rings a bell.
Q
Would there be any other reason you would know about LLCs
that he had an interest in, except for his using it to try to
purchase a place?
A
Yeah, I just know he would use different names.
Q
He wasn't consulting you about LLC formations?
A
No.
Q
What he did or didn't need to do there?
A
Not at all.
Q
It wasn't part of the relationship?
A
No, sir.
Q
You have indicated that you did observe people working at
some of the houses?
A
Yes, sir.
Q
You don't know how many employees that he had?
A
Absolutely not. I really don't know that he had employees,
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DAVID MADRID - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 425
just workers.
Q
Did these properties appear to be rented out at the same time
they were being repaired and fixed up?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you have a sense that the workers that you observed
had -- do you know, did they have identification?
A
I don't know if they had identification. But if you ask me
if I thought they did, no.
Q
You would say no?
A
Absolutely not.
Q
Why would you say that?
A
Because most of the people that worked there were, by
Mr. Shibley's definition, meth heads.
Q
So these are -- are these people that, but for their ability
to live there, might, in your judgment, have had difficulty
living anywhere?
A
Absolutely.
Q
Might they have been what people often refer to as "street
people"?
A
Absolutely.
Q
People with problems?
A
You hit the nail right on the head, Mike.
Q
Social problems?
A
Every kind of problem you could have in that state of mind,
yes, sir.
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DAVID MADRID - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 426
Q
You were asked if you ever observed Mr. Shibley paying his
workers. You never did, right?
A
Never saw that.
Q
Is there any reason that he would need to involve you in
paying the people working on his --
A
It was one time he called me and said he was broke and he
needed some help to pay. So I gave him some money.
Q
You have never seen his financial statements or bank
statements, have you?
A
No, sir.
Q
Would you agree that he -- Mr. Shibley seemed to be very
interested in becoming further involved in real estate?
MR. WERNER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Well, were you ever -- were you ever assigned by him to look
for properties that might be appropriate purchase opportunities?
A
It was sometimes every day that Eric would find some kind of
property. That was kind of like his thing to do. He would
research properties constantly. He had different ways of having
me check various types of things in the research. And he was
constantly looking for properties, every day.
Q
Would he talk to you on a regular basis about it?
A
He talked to me. He would talk to me and say: Let's go
ahead and -- he would be wanting to make a purchase. And then
all of a sudden I wasn't involved.
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DAVID MADRID - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 427
Q
Again, you -- you were in frequent contact. But is it
accurate that you never -- the nature, as you perceived it, the
nature of your relationship with him really never changed? You
were a real estate agent looking to have a business relationship
with Mr. Shibley?
A
Yes.
Q
And you had -- that was your common -- that was the common
aspect to the relationship?
A
There was -- there was times when I would do things that are
outside the world of real estate for Eric. I could elaborate,
but you didn't ask me to.
Q
Okay. You didn't delve into his business filings?
A
Oh, no.
Q
Or his tax filings?
A
Nothing like that.
Q
Tax issues, PPP loan applications?
A
Nope.
MR. NANCE: That's all I have. Thank you.
MR. WERNER: No further questions. Thank you, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. Put your mask back on,
please.
THE WITNESS: Can I go home?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
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LISA VELOTTA - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 428
MS. CONNELLY: The government calls Lisa Velotta.
LISA VELOTTA,
having been sworn under oath, testified as follows:
THE COURT: You can take your mask off.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CONNELLY:
Q
Good morning.
A
Hi.
Q
Can you please state your name and spell your last name for
the record?
A
Sure. My first name is Lisa. Last name is Velotta. It's
V as in Victor, E-L-O-T-T-A.
Q
And where do you currently live, Ms. Velotta?
A
I live in Renton, Washington.
Q
Can you tell us, what is your phone number?
A
My phone number is 509-699-0885.
Q
And how long have you had that phone number?
A
I'd say 10, 15 years at least.
Q
So was that your phone number in April, May, and June of
2020?
A
Yes.
Q
What is the last four digits of your social security number,
Ms. Velotta?
A
It's 0046.
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LISA VELOTTA - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 429
Q
And where do you currently work?
A
I work for Providence, and my office is in Beacon Hill. I
work for Pacific Medical Centers, USFHP. We are the credential
providers for that group.
Q
What does it mean, "credential providers," for those of us
who don't know?
A
Before we bring physicians or providers into our network for
the health plan, I manage the credentialing process of verifying
their education and training before we approve them into our
network, I guess is a quick way to explain it.
Q
And how long have you worked in that job?
A
I have been in the credentialing field since 1996, so
25 years.
Q
How long have you worked for Providence?
A
I have worked for Providence just four years.
Q
Where did you work before that?
A
Before that I worked for Overlake Hospital in Bellevue, for a
couple of years. And prior to that I worked for the Everett
Clinic for a couple of years. That was on this side of the
mountains. And the majority of my career was in Wenatchee, where
I lived. I worked for Wenatchee Valley Medical Center for about
18 years.
Q
And before this case, were you familiar with Eric Shibley?
A
No, I was not.
Q
Have you ever been employed by Eric Shibley?
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LISA VELOTTA - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 430
A
No, I have not.
Q
Have you ever been employed by the A Team Holdings LLC?
A
No, I have not.
Q
Have you ever been employed by Dituri Construction LLC?
A
No, I have not.
Q
Have you ever been employed by SS1 LLC?
A
No, I have not.
Q
Have you ever been employed by Seattle's Finest Cannabis LLC
or SFC LLC?
A
No, I have not.
Q
Have you ever been employed by ES1 LLC?
A
No, I have not.
Q
Have you ever been employed by Eric R. Shibley MD, PLLC?
A
No, I have not.
Q
And have you ever been paid by Mr. Shibley or any of the
entities that we just went through?
A
No, I have not.
Q
How did you become familiar with Eric Shibley?
A
Well, it happened last year when I was working from home.
And two men came to my house, identified themselves as FBI
agents. They gave me a subpoena that asked for me to provide my
W-2 and my bank statements, my work history, within a month --
within a week, I think it was, for this case. And they left. I
didn't take them seriously, because the document didn't seem
serious.
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LISA VELOTTA - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 431
First of all, I saw the name. And I looked on my system at
work to see if he was in our network, because he was an MD, a
physician. So he was not. And I was so confused.
So then I Googled him, and called him, called the phone
number. And he answered. And I said, "Is this Eric Shibley?"
And he said, 'Yes, who's this?" And I said, "Well, I just had
two FBI agents come to my house, who said that you told them I
worked for you. I don't even know you. Why would you tell them
I worked for you?" And he said, "Why are you calling me? Quit
harassing me." And he hung up.
So I was very much confused and angry. I did my own
research, as I do for credentialing, to find out how this could
-- how my name was connected. And I couldn't find any way,
because I have never credentialed him. He wasn't in my system.
So I was baffled.
So that's how I came to know who he was.
Q
And so just unpacking that story that you have told us, just
a little bit. Can you just tell us, again, how you found
Mr. Shibley's number?
A
I Googled his name and it came up.
Q
Did it come up on a business website that you had?
A
Yes. It came up at his practice in Arlington.
Q
So did you then call the number on that website?
A
Yes, I did.
Q
And then when you called him, did he identify himself as Eric
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LISA VELOTTA - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 432
Shibley?
A
Yes. I asked -- I said, "Is this Eric Shibley?" And he
says, "Yes, who's calling?" And that's when I said -- yes, yeah.
Q
Before he hung up on you, could you tell us what he told you
in response to you telling him the FBI had been at your door?
MR. NANCE: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Pardon me?
MR. NANCE: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Ms. Velotta, about how long was the phone call with
Mr. Shibley?
A
It wasn't that long. Probably less than a minute.
Q
I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 69, which has
already been entered into evidence.
MS. CONNELLY: Permission to publish Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q
If we could look at the second page, Mr. Arnold. If we could
look at the line in the center. Thank you.
Ms. Velotta, the "from" number on this document, is that your
number?
A
Yes, it is.
Q
And the call date of June 10th, 2020, is that the date you
called Mr. Shibley?
A
That sounds about right, yes.
Q
And the billable time over on the right-hand side, is that
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LISA VELOTTA - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 433
your recollection of about how long you spent on the phone with
him?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you ever speak to Mr. Shibley before this phone call?
A
No.
Q
And did you ever speak to him after this phone call?
A
No.
MR. CONNELLY: No further questions.
THE COURT: Cross?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE:
Q
Good morning, Ms. Velotta.
A
Good morning.
Q
You don't know Eric Shibley, do you?
A
No, I do not.
Q
You have never met him face-to-face?
A
No.
Q
Before this case, you had never heard of him?
A
Correct.
Q
And other than this 30-second phone call that you initiated,
you have never spoken to him?
A
Correct.
Q
Right. He's never called you?
A
Not that I recall.
Q
You have obviously never worked for him?
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LISA VELOTTA - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 434
A
Correct, I have not.
Q
Wasn't your wallet stolen?
A
Yes, it was.
Q
A year and a half or two years ago?
A
Yes, it was.
Q
You were at a Costco and left your purse -- your wallet in
the car, and somebody stole it?
A
Yes. It was in my purse. They took it out of my purse when
I was putting my --
Q
Okay. Did your purse -- your wallet contain your driver's
license?
A
Yes, it did.
Q
Did it contain other identifying information about you?
A
It did not have my social security, because I don't carry
that with me. But it had credit cards, because they were being
rung up, by the time I got home.
Q
Was the thief of your property ever apprehended?
A
I was not aware. But I did see on the news that this man
that was doing this at Costco's -- because it was in a Costco
parking lot -- that he was apprehended. But I was never returned
my --
Q
Do you think it was the same person, or do you know?
A
I think so. Because the way it happened, everyone else
that -- that put in the police reports of their wallets being
taken while they were loading their groceries, it sounded exactly
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LISA VELOTTA - Redirect (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 435
like what happened to me. And it was in the Tukwila Costco.
Q
Okay. But you never got your wallet back or your ID back?
A
Correct.
Q
Yeah. You wouldn't know if someone used your information and
pretended to be you, right?
A
I have not had anything other than this come up, uh-huh.
Q
Okay.
MR. NANCE: Thank you. That's all I have.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MS. CONNELLY: Just one follow-up question, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CONNELLY:
Q
Did your wallet contain your phone number?
A
No, not that I'm aware of.
Q
Did your wallet contain your social security?
A
No. I don't carry that with me.
MS. CONNELLY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down. Put your
mask back on.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MS. CONNELLY: The government calls Michael Petron.
MICHAEL PETRON,
having been sworn under oath, testified as follows:
THE COURT: Take your mask off.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 436
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CONNELLY:
Q
Good morning.
A
Good morning.
Q
Can you please state your name and spell your last name for
the record?
A
It is Michael Petron, P-E-T-R-O-N.
Q
And can you tell us about your educational background?
A
Sure. I have an undergraduate degree with a double major in
economics and statistics. I have one master's degree in
statistics. And a second master's degree in accounting.
Q
And do you have any professional qualifications?
A
I do. I'm a certified public accountant and a certified
fraud examiner.
Q
What does it mean to be a CPA?
A
A CPA is one who has passed a series of exams,
accounting-related exams that allows me to sign financial
statements.
Q
And where do you currently work, Mr. Petron?
A
I work at a firm named Stout, S-T-O-U-T.
Q
And what is your job at Stout?
A
My position is managing director. I have two main roles.
One of them is servicing clients, which is what I'm here today to
do. And the other is more administrative, where I run Stout's
entire dispute consulting practice.
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 437
Q
And how big is Stout's dispute consulting practice?
A
I think I have about 110 people that report to me; 22 other
partners, and -- 110 total staff.
Q
And just for the jury, what is a dispute consulting practice?
A
So the dispute consulting practice, we have a variety of
practitioners, mainly accountants who specialize in different
aspects of the litigation. So I specialize in white-color crime
and fraud and forensic accounting. But others specialize in
damages, intellectual property issues, other litigation-related
activities.
Q
So did the government ask you to assist in this case that you
are here today with?
A
They did.
Q
And when did that happen?
A
I believe it was sometime in September of last year.
Q
Is that 2020?
A
Correct.
Q
Was this matter the first time that you had worked for the
DOJ?
A
Oh, absolutely not.
Q
What percentage of your work do you do for the DOJ at Stout?
A
Well, it varies from time-to-time. It could be anywhere
between, call it had 40 percent, all the way up to 75 percent,
depending upon what's going on.
Q
And approximately how much has Stout billed for its work in
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 438
this matter, billed the DOJ for work in this matter?
A
I think it's around $60,000.
Q
And what is your hourly rate to do work for the Department of
Justice?
A
$395.
Q
In this case, were you hired to make any sort of conclusion?
A
I was not.
Q
Were you hired to express any sort of opinion?
A
No, ma'am.
Q
So what were you hired to do?
A
I was hired to examine financial records, banking
transactions, and loan applications.
Q
And so I'm going to show the witness what's been marked as
Government's Exhibit 208. And, Mr. Petron, you also have a
binder --
MS. CONNELLY: Your Honor, may I approach the witness
with a binder?
THE COURT: (Nods affirmatively.)
MS. CONNELLY: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MS. CONNELLY: You are welcome.
Q
And so, Mr. Petron, I'm showing you what's been marked as
Government's Exhibit 208. Exhibit 208 is a 24-page document.
Can you just tell us, what is that document?
A
So this document is a series of summary exhibits that I
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 439
created that discuss the PPP applications and a variety of the
bank accounts that we analyzed.
Q
Is it a summary of the voluminous bank and loan records that
you prepared in this matter?
A
Yes, ma'am.
Q
And how did you create this document? How were you involved
in the creation?
A
So I supervise a small team that helped me in creating this.
So I would have examined the underlying records. I examined my
team's work product. And I also reviewed, for quality-control
purposes, the accuracy of each of these charts.
Q
And so does Government's Exhibit 208 fairly and accurately
summarize the bank records and applications that you reviewed?
A
It does.
MS. CONNELLY: I would move -- at this time, I would
move into evidence Government's Exhibit 208.
MR. NANCE: No objection.
THE COURT: It will be admitted.
(Exhibit No. 208 admitted.)
Q
And Mr. Petron, you mentioned that you reviewed bank records.
About how many bank records did you review in this case?
A
Well, there were thousands of records, thousands of pages. I
think I reviewed approximately 60, six-zero, individual bank
accounts.
Q
And are the bank records that you reviewed identified in this
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 440
exhibit, or the government's exhibit that they are based on,
identified?
A
They are. In every exhibit I strive to make clear the
underlying government bank record that I looked at for every
piece of information that's on these charts.
MS. CONNELLY: So at this time I would move into
evidence the remaining bank records in this case. It's a lengthy
list, Your Honor. Do you want me to run through them?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. CONNELLY: It would be Government's Exhibits 109
through 111, Government's Exhibits 113 through 116, Government's
Exhibits 118, 119, Government's Exhibits 121 through 129,
Government's Exhibits 131 through 135, Government's Exhibits 137
through 142, Government's Exhibits 144 through 171, Government's
Exhibits 173 through 177, Government's Exhibits 179 through 186,
Government's Exhibits 188 through 198, and Government's
Exhibits 200 through 203.
MR. NANCE: If she's doing it through this witness, I
think the witness needs to confirm that he's reviewed all of
these records.
Q
Mr. Petron, have you reviewed all of those records?
A
I have.
MR. CONNELLY: And I would also note that we have
902(11) business record certifications for each one of them that
the defense has received.
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 441
MR. NANCE: No objection.
THE COURT: They will be admitted.
(Exhibit Nos. 109 - 111, 113 - 116, 118, 119, 121 - 129,
131 - 135, 137, 142, 144 - 171, 173 - 177, 179 - 186,
188 - 198 and 200 - 203 admitted.)
MS. CONNELLY: Okay. Permission to publish Government's
Exhibit 208?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q
Okay. So Mr. Petron, can you tell us what starts on the
first five pages of Government's Exhibit 208?
A
I can. So these first five pages are business-related bank
accounts. So you can see the title "business bank accounts
reviewed." And there are approximately 53 individual business
bank accounts.
I have organized this exhibit so that each business is
together, so listed together, and each account represents an
individual row of the 1 to 53.
I have tried to put what I think is the relevant information
about each account. So the business name, the signatory of that
account, so who signs, who has control of that account, what bank
the account was at -- that's the third column -- the account
number. So you will hear me say about account numbers. And I
will only talk about the last four digits, it's just the way I do
things. The open date. And then the entire time period of the
account.
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 442
And then, finally, if you were to go to the individual
government exhibit, I list those exhibits there that I used. So
those exhibits will be the underlying physical records from the
banks.
Q
And so if we could go back to the first page, Mr. Arnold.
Did you choose the bank accounts that you reviewed?
A
I wouldn't say I chose them. I would say that the government
provided them to me.
Q
And can you just tell us, again, what is the significance of
the signatory column on this chart?
A
This is the person who ultimately would have power over that
account, to move money out of the account.
Q
And who was the signatory on most of these accounts?
A
By far and away it's Eric Shibley.
Q
Did you find a signatory for every account that you reviewed?
A
I did not. There were some, you can see in Row 5 and 6,
where I couldn't find the underlying signature card of the person
who had control of the account.
Q
But you have reason to believe that Eric Shibley was in
control of those accounts?
A
I do.
Q
And what is the significance of the accounts that are in red
text on this chart?
A
So every time you see a red, you know, the red text instead
of black, that means that account received PPP loan money or EIDL
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 443
loan money.
Q
And turning to page 6 of Government's Exhibit 208. Did you
look at Mr. Shibley's personal accounts as well, as part of your
analysis?
A
I did. So, in addition to the 53 business accounts, I looked
at personal accounts. So accounts in the name of Eric Shibley.
These are those seven accounts at the banks. Again, the same
identifying information.
Q
And so did you review anything else as part of your work in
doing this analysis?
A
Well, I reviewed, obviously, the underlying transactions in
each of these accounts. And I also reviewed the loan
applications that were made and some of their supporting
documentation.
Q
And so let's just turn to some of the work that you did
perform. If we could turn to page 11 of Government's
Exhibit 208. What does this chart show?
A
So this a summary of one of the businesses, the A Team
Holdings. And at the top, I'm examining a PPP loan application
that's represented by Government's Exhibit 1. So in this loan
application there was a representative amount or a claim of
monthly payroll expense. So how much was being spent every month
on payroll. In certain situations, there were more than one
application.
So here I had one application. And so I'm capturing the
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 444
lowest and the highest amount. It's the same, because there was
one application.
But as we go through these, you will see these amounts
change. So I was trying to give you all the breadth of
information that's available in the loan applications.
Q
Then looking down below that, what is this pie chart in the
center with "deposit activity"?
A
So the top part is the PPP application. The bottom part is
the bank information. So what I did is I went into all of those
A Team Holdings bank accounts, and I summarized all of the money
coming into the account; so how much money was coming in. And
then I categorized it, based upon my definition of new money
versus not-new money.
So the key distinction here is "not new money" would be, if
you had account one and account two, and you transferred from one
account to the other account, you know, checking to saving, when
it arrives in saving it's a deposit, right? But it's not new
money, you had the money. If you returned something to Target,
right? That would be a deposit into your account. But it
wouldn't be new money, because you had previously spent it.
So what I was trying to drive at is how much new money was
coming in, in showing you both the totality of how much was
deposited, but also how much was new versus how much was not.
And that's what is on the bottom box.
Q
And so for the A Team Holdings, how much new money did you
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 445
find was coming into the account?
A
For this time period -- this is a six-month time period prior
to the application being filed, was $2,106.
Q
You mentioned the timeframe. How did you choose this
timeframe of October through March of 2020?
A
These are the two preceding quarters leading up to the loan
applications. And so I thought that would be a good
representative time period to see what kind of activity was in
the accounts.
Q
And so the top box, is that the money that's allegedly being
paid in payroll every month?
A
It is.
Q
And is the bottom box the money that's actually coming into
the accounts over that six months?
A
It is.
Q
And so did you do a comparison between the money in and money
out, over the entire six-month period?
A
I did.
Q
And if we could turn to page 12. Is this your comparison?
A
It is. So what all this is, if I take that monthly payroll
amount -- so I think it was $384,000 -- and I said, well, if
that's monthly, then to do apples-to-apples, let me multiply it
by six. So I get $2.3 million. That's how much is going out, or
claimed to be going out. And then versus $2,106 coming in.
Q
And so did you see a payroll of $384,000 a month supported by
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 446
the accounts for the A Team Holdings?
A
I did not.
Q
And did you see evidence of $2.3 million of payroll being
paid over the course of October 2019 through March of 2020?
A
I did not.
Q
And if we could now look at page 13 of Government's
Exhibit 208. Can you just walk us through what this chart is?
A
So here we have the company Dituri Construction. And here is
an example where there are multiple applications. I have
captured the lowest monthly payroll claimed and the highest
monthly payroll claimed. So you see the breadth of the
information, $130,000 to $392,000. That's the top.
The bottom, there was no bank activity prior to March 31st,
2020, for any of the Dituri Construction accounts. So there is
nothing to capture.
Q
During your review, did you actually determine when the first
bank accounts were opened for Dituri Construction?
A
If memory serves, I think that is in May. Yeah. May of
2020.
Q
So just like with the A Team Holdings, did you also do a
comparison for the entire six-month period for Dituri
Construction?
A
I believe for Dituri, because there was no banking, I only
did a three-month comparison. But the next chart should --
Q
Yes. So let's look at page 14. And if you can tell us what
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 447
you did for Dituri Construction.
A
So here, I didn't know if the company was in operation for
six months, so I said, okay, let me just look at three months.
And I took the lowest monthly payroll, the $130,000. And I said,
well, multiple that by three, for the three months. That creates
the $391,000 in payroll out. And then obviously if there's no
banking activity, I had no information about any deposits coming
in.
Q
And so did you see any bank account activity to support
$391,000 over three months being paid out of any of the Dituri
Construction accounts?
A
No, ma'am.
Q
If we could just turn briefly back to the previous slide,
Mr. Arnold.
How does the three-month implied payroll total for the lowest
monthly payroll for Dituri Construction, compare with highest
monthly payroll for Dituri Construction?
A
So if you take that lowest one, times three, you basically
get the highest one.
Q
And just putting you on the spot to do some fast math, Mr.
Petron, what would the implied total payroll be, using the
highest Dituri Construction amount?
A
It would be $1.18 million. Something like that. Just shy of
1.2.
Q
Just shy of $1.2 million?
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 448
A
Yes.
Q
If we turn back to the next slide. How would that compare
with the new-money deposits that you saw for Dituri Construction?
A
It would make the gray bar a lot higher, and wouldn't change
the right-hand one.
Q
And so did you see any bank account activity supporting a
payroll of $1.2 million being paid out of Dituri accounts,
between January and March of 2020?
A
I did not.
Q
If we could look at page 17, please.
Can you describe this chart for us, as well?
A
Again, this is another entity named SS1 LLC. And in this
situation, the lowest and the highest payrolls were the same.
It's a similar story. There was no banking activity prior to
March 31st, 2020.
Q
And in your review, did you determine when the first bank
accounts for SS1 were opened?
A
I think -- let me check. I believe they were June of 2020.
Let me have one second. Oh, I take it back. I'm glad I checked,
April 2020.
Q
Okay. And is that -- that can be found on the business bank
accounts review slide that we looked at earlier?
A
Correct. That's exactly what I'm look at, on page 4 of the
exhibit.
Q
So did you also do a comparison for SS1? Again, the money in
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 449
and money out for the SS1 accounts?
A
I did.
Q
If we could look at the next page, please. Is this your
comparison?
A
Exactly. So 328 times the three months. Again, I limited
this to a three-month period, because I wasn't sure of the
existence of the company. That's $984,000, as compared to no
banking activity during that same time.
Q
And so did you see any bank account activity to support
payroll of $328,000 a month, being paid out of the SS1 accounts?
A
No, ma'am.
Q
And did you see any bank account activity of $984,000 being
paid over January through March of 2020?
A
I did not.
Q
If we could look at page 15 of Government's Exhibit 208. Can
you tell us about this?
A
So here is another entity, SFC LLC. Two different payroll
amounts claimed. $37,600 to $40,000 per month. But, again, with
SFC, there was no bank activity prior to March 31, 2020. And
just to anticipate your question, the first account was opened in
May of 2020 for SFC.
Q
And so did you also do a comparison, like for the other ones
we have seen?
A
I have done the same analysis, where I took the lowest
amount, multiplied by three. That equals $112,000 in implied
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 450
payroll for the three-month time period, compared to no
depository activity.
Q
Just to remind us, why did you choose the lowest amount for
these graphs when you had it?
A
Just to be conservative.
Q
And so did you see any bank account activity to support
payroll of $112,800 a month, being paid out of the -- or $112,800
over three months, being paid out of the SFC LLC accounts?
A
I did not.
Q
And did you see any bank account activity to support payroll
of $37,000 a month, being paid out of those accounts?
A
I did not.
Q
If we could look at page 9 of Government's Exhibit 208. So
can you describe what we're looking at on page 9?
A
Sure. Another entity, I think this is the fifth entity,
ES1 LLC. A very similar range as the last one. $38,300 to
$40,000 a month in monthly payroll, from the PPP loan
applications. The difference here is we have a variety of bank
account information available for the six months leading into
March 2020.
There's about a total of $160,000 in total deposits. Of that
160, about 110 are new money coming in.
Q
And, again, just to refresh us, what counts as new money?
A
Basically, any transaction whatsoever that is not an
inter-account transfer, or a reversal of some type.
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 451
Q
And did you also do the comparison, the bar chart comparison
that we have seen for the other accounts?
A
I did.
Q
Okay. And we're looking at it on page 10 of Government's
Exhibit 208. So can you describe what we see here?
A
So here the difference is, I have six months of activity. So
I multiplied by six. And I got $229,800 in implied payroll
expenses, as compared to about the $110,000 in new money coming
into the account.
Q
And so I see there are actually some new deposits coming into
this account. Even with that, do the deposits coming into this
account support a payroll figure of $229,000 over that six-month
period?
A
They do not.
Q
And do the deposits -- strike that.
I'm showing the witness, or if we could pull up page 7 of
Government's Exhibit 208.
Can you just tell us what this is?
A
So yeah. This is Mr. Shibley's MD, PLLC account, business
account. Very similar payroll claims here, between $37,560 up to
$40,000 a month in claimed payroll. I have also had the
activity, the banking activity for the six-month period
available. So there's, roughly speaking, $53,000 being
deposited, in total. Of that, about $40,000 was new money.
Q
And what time period did you choose here?
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 452
A
This is that six-month period leading up to those loan
applications.
Q
So did you also do the same bar chart comparison?
A
I did.
Q
If we can look at that.
A
So here I took that lowest monthly payroll, the $37,000,
times six in this case. So $225,000 implied being spent on
payroll, as compared to the $40,000 of new money coming into the
accounts.
Q
And so did you see anything to support $225,000 of payroll
being paid out over six months in Mr. Shibley's bank accounts?
A
I did not.
Q
Did you see anything supporting a payroll figure of about
$40,000 a month?
A
I did not.
Q
And why did you choose the October 2019 through March 2020
timeframe for the M.D. account?
A
These were the immediate two quarters leading up to the
payroll applications. And in some instances, the applications
had supporting information for those time periods.
Q
So did you also do an analysis of the entire amounts of
deposits across all of the bank accounts and loan applications?
A
I did.
Q
Okay. If we could look at page 19 of Government's
Exhibit 208. Can you describe for us what this is?
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 453
A
So this basically takes every pie chart that we just looked
at, and just puts them together. That's what it does. So we
have got total depository activity of $364,000. Of that,
$151,000 is the new money.
Q
Why was the October through March date range chosen?
A
That was the period, when available, there was information
from the loan applications about when the companies were in
operation.
Q
And so, Mr. Petron, we have looked at more than just pie
charts in these last few slides. Did you also create a bar graph
for the entire date range?
A
I did. So I combined the bar charts, just like I combined
the pie charts. And here is the resulting analysis. And to be
clear, in the implied total payroll, if I only used January to
March, three months, that's what is here. So it's not always
October of 2019 to March 2020. It's for those time periods that
I had previously said, three months, that's what's in here.
Q
And so how much in implied total payroll did that add up to?
A
Over $4.2 million.
Q
And how much in new-money deposits did you find in the
accounts during that time period?
A
Just over $151,000.
Q
So did you find anything in the bank accounts to support a
payroll figure of $4.2 million over six months prior to March of
2020?
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Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 454
A
I did not.
Q
Did you also look for other depository sources, outside of
the October through March date range?
A
I did. I expanded that date range.
Q
Okay. And why did you do that?
A
I wanted to determine if there had potentially been a buildup
of money prior to this.
Q
And so if we could look at page 21 of Government's
Exhibit 209.
A
So here, I went back all the way to January 1st. So I went
back about nine more months. And I captured -- I did the same
analysis. So I said, okay, there's a million -- almost
$1.1 million of total deposits. Of that about, $570,000 were new
money coming in.
Q
And so did you also, then, put this on a bar graph like we
have seen?
A
Exactly. I just compared those. So I believe that's --
Q
If we could look at the next page.
A
So here is our 4.2 number, as compared to the $571,000 in new
money.
Q
And just to be clear, the 4.2 number remains for the date
ranges October through March of 2020?
A
It does. Except for instances where I didn't have banking;
and then I used that smaller, three-month time period. But all
of that I should have footnoted, or have footnoted here at the
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 455
bottom, about where I got every piece of information.
Q
And how much, total, or how much in total were the new-money
deposits for the time period, including all of 2019?
A
$571,000.
Q
And so looking at this, were you able to see any sort of
new-money deposits during the -- including the 2019 period, that
would support a $4.2 million payroll?
A
I did not.
Q
Did you also do a calculation of the average monthly payroll,
by entity, for Mr. Shibley's applications?
A
I did.
Q
And if we could look at page 23 of Government's Exhibit 208.
And can you just describe what you have done here?
A
So all I have done here is -- just like I put the pie charts
together, I took the top boxes and I just put them together. So
this is the lowest and the highest monthly payroll, by entity, in
one chart. And then I obviously summed them at the bottom.
THE COURT: All right. Let's take the morning recess of
15 minutes.
THE CLERK: Please rise. Court is in recess.
(Recessed.)
THE COURT: Before we bring the jury in. How do you
want to handle the forfeiture issue? There's two ways to do it.
One is a rather cumbersome approach, where after the verdict,
assuming there's a guilty verdict, then you have to instruct the
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 456
jury, again, on forfeiture. And then send them back out to
deliberate again, which I hate to do. It's asking a lot of them.
But the other approach is to leave it to me, depending upon
what the verdict is. It's really your call, Mr. Nance.
MR. NANCE: It is, and if I could have -- if I could
report back to the Court --
THE COURT: Of course.
MR. NANCE: -- this afternoon on that.
THE COURT: That's fine.
MR. NANCE: That would be preferred.
THE COURT: Okay.
MS. CONNELLY: Your Honor, just so you know, Mr. Petron
is our last witness. It's the government's last witness.
THE COURT: Oh, really?
MS. CONNELLY: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: All right. Do you need more time to --
MR. NANCE: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Well, let's finish this witness,
and then we will take a recess. And you can -- it will probably
take you through the lunch hour. So you can have probably the
lunch hour.
Can arrangements be made for him to be able to talk to his
client during the lunch hour.
THE MARSHAL: (Indicating a thumbs up.)
THE COURT: All right.
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Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 457
MR. NANCE: Thank you.
THE COURT: Let's bring in the jury.
(The following occurred in the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
All right.
Q
(By Ms. Connelly:) So I think where we left off was on
page 23 of Government's Exhibit 208. And so again, what is this
document?
A
So this is a summary of the top box of each of those
individual companies that we examined. So this is a range of the
lowest to the highest monthly payroll, by entity requesting the
loan. And, finally, I summed each of those lowest and highest
amounts.
Q
The government's exhibit number on the right-hand side, does
that correspond with the lowest and the highest monthly payroll?
A
It does.
Q
Okay. And what is the total lowest monthly payroll that
would be paid across these six entities?
A
Approximately $956,000.
Q
So these six entities were paying allegedly $956,000 a month
in total payroll?
A
Correct.
Q
And what is the highest monthly payroll?
A
Over $1.2 million.
Q
And so does that mean that these six entities were paying,
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 458
again, allegedly $1.2 million a month in total payroll?
A
Exactly.
Q
And so did you also, taking this information, calculate the
average yearly salary, per employee, based on Mr. Shibley's
applications?
A
I did.
Q
And so can we turn to page 24, Mr. Arnold?
And is this that calculation?
A
It is. So I found it helpful. I think about things in the
terms of an annual salary. So I wanted to understand what this
meant, in my mind, for an average annual salary. So I took each
of the implied monthly payrolls, I took the number of
employees -- so I figured out the average monthly amount paid per
employee -- and then I annualized that in the third column.
So just take the first row, for example. Dituri
Construction, $130,000 on the low end, at 49 employees, would
imply, on average, that each employee was making almost $32,000 a
year, if they were employed for the whole year.
Q
What about for the highest monthly payroll?
A
It would imply $96,000, per employee.
Q
If we could zoom back out, Mr. Arnold. Just looking at the
total bottom line, at line 7. If we could zoom in on that, Mr.
Arnold. Can you explain this line?
A
Sure. So this is across all of the entities. The payroll
would have been, on the low side, again, $965,000 a month. And
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 459
annualized across all 156 claimed employees, that would mean, on
average, those employees would make, on an annual basis, $73,500.
Q
And I notice between the lowest monthly payroll and the
highest monthly payroll calculation, the employees change. Why
is that?
A
There were a few instances where you can see --
Q
We can zoom back out.
A
So you can see on Row 2, Row 3, the employee count goes from
six to five.
MR. NANCE: Your Honor, I object to anything further.
This is utterly hypothetical.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
Q
You can go ahead and answer, Mr. Petron.
A
The employee count on those two rows goes from six to five.
So that's why the overall count goes from 156 to 154.
Q
And so if we go back to the total row, on line 7.
If we look at the highest monthly payroll calculation, what
does that come out to annually, per employee?
A
That comes out, on average, over $95,000, per employee, for
the 154 employees claimed.
Q
And I just -- I'm noticing something, looking at this chart.
And we could blow back out, Mr. Arnold.
Under the average annual payroll, per employee, on the
highest monthly payroll, it looks like five out of the six
entities are paying an average of $96,000 a year; is that right?
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 460
A
Exactly. So in five of the six entities, the average annual
payroll amount equated to the same exact amount for five of the
six entities.
Q
If we can unpublish. And you can take that down, Mr. Arnold.
So as part of your review, Mr. Petron, did you also trace PPP
and EIDL money that came into the bank accounts?
A
I did.
Q
And did you identify Department of Justice seizure warrants,
as part of that analysis?
A
I did.
Q
And so I'm going to show you what's been marked as
Government's Exhibit 209. Just the witness.
And Government's Exhibit 209 is a twelve-page document. Can
you tell us what's contained in this document?
A
These are a series of summary charts that I prepared that
demonstrate the tracing of certain PPP and EIDL loan money.
Q
And so did you assist in the preparation of Government's
Exhibit 209?
A
I did.
Q
And is Government's Exhibit 209 a fair and accurate summary
of the bank transactions that you traced in this case?
A
It is.
MS. CONNELLY: I move to admit Government's Exhibit 209
as a summary exhibit.
MR. NANCE: It's cumulative, Your Honor.
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Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 461
THE COURT: It will be admitted.
(Exhibit No. 209 admitted.)
MS. CONNELLY: Permission to publish, Your Honor.
Q
And so we're looking at page 1 of this document, can you tell
us what's on page 1?
A
I can. So it's quite simply a tracing -- a summary of the
tracing I did related to Count 11 in the indictment, which is a
$960,000 PPP loan that went to A Team Holdings.
Q
And so can you tell us what exhibits is government's -- or is
this slide based on. Is that found on the chart?
A
It is. Again, I try to be diligent. Every document, every
one of my documents should have a source, with the government
exhibits in the bottom. So you could go look at those yourself.
Q
So is that now been zoomed in on?
A
Correct. So Government's Exhibit 1, 104 and 105.
Q
Okay. If we could zoom back out, Mr. Arnold.
What happened to the $906,000 A Team Holdings loan from
Customer's Bank?
A
So Customer's sent the money to the A Team Holdings account
at Wells Fargo 9116. That money was deposited on May 4th, 2020.
On that same day, the money was moved to a second A Team Holdings
account at Wells Fargo, 3536.
Q
If we wanted to look at the source documentation, is that
what's found on the government's exhibit numbers that are on the
bottom corner?
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Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 462
A
Correct. The loan application, I believe, is Government's
Exhibit 1. Account 9116, I believe, is Government's 104. And,
finally, the Wells Fargo 3536, I believe, is Government's 105.
Q
Based on your review of the accounts, was any of the PPP or
EIDL money that came from this loan used to pay payroll?
A
It was not.
Q
If we could look at page 2. Again, can you walk us through
this document?
A
So here we have a Celtic Bank PPP loan for Dituri
Construction, on May 6th, 2020, in the amount of $563,500, being
deposited into the account 7277.
The next day, on May 7th, the full amount was moved to a
second Dituri Construction account, 7219.
Q
And what exhibits are these -- is this trace based on?
A
The PPP application is Government's Exhibit 4. And both of
these bank accounts are located within Government's Exhibit 106.
Q
Okay. And based on your review of the BECU accounts that
received these funds, was any of the PPP money that came in used
to pay payroll?
A
It was not.
Q
If we look at page 3, please. What is this tracing?
A
So here this relates to Count 13 and SS1. Here we have a
May 19th PPP loan in the amount of $820,000, being deposited into
account 9727. That money is moved, on that day, to account 9683.
Q
And I think I forgot to ask on the first one, but there's
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 463
this box in upper left-hand corner about transaction amount and
the red dots being EIDL/PPP funds. Can you just describe what
that means?
A
I can. So when you are tracing money, there is oftentimes
multiple sources of money in a bank account. So I attempt to
identify for you, in black, the amount of the transaction itself.
And then in red, the amount that is made up of the PPP or the
EIDL funds. So in all of these situations, it's 100 percent.
Because I could trace all of the PPP money within each of these
transactions.
Q
Based on your review of the accounts, was any of the PPP
money that came in used to pay payroll?
A
It was not.
Q
If we look at page 4, please. Can you walk us through this?
A
Sure. This relates to Count 14. I believe it's a follow-on
from a previous chart that we looked at, where we had the A Team
Holdings money of $960,000 on May 4th, 2020. About 22 days
later, on May 26th, there is a withdrawal made in a branch. So
someone went to the bank and took out $150,000, on May 26th.
Q
And is that represented -- have you actually put up the
source document on this slide?
A
Correct. So this is the bank statement that I used to find
these transactions.
Q
And did you also do a transaction log for this particular
movement of money?
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November 17, 2021 - 464
A
I did.
Q
And so can we look at page 6 of Government's Exhibit 209? Is
this the transaction log?
A
Exactly. This is my representation of the two bank
statements, very simply. On the top, we have the 9116 account,
where you see a beginning balance of $429. There is two
withdrawal amounts, $25 and $25. Finally, on May 4th, the fourth
transaction, the PPP loan is deposited. $960,000. You see two
other smaller transactions on that day.
And, finally, you have the $960,000 being transferred to the
second Wells Fargo account, 3536. And that's the account that's
at the bottom.
So I then put the reverse side of that transaction, deposited
the $960,000. You see a withdrawal amount of $7,000, a cash
withdrawal of $4,000. And, finally, the cash withdrawal of
$150,000 that I just spoke about.
The last transaction is related to the Justice Department
seizing all of the remaining amounts of money in that account, on
May 27th, 2020.
Q
And so let's look at page 5, now. What is this document?
A
So here we have an EIDL loan for SS1. There's a few
different things here. First, we have transactions going into
the 5330 account. That same day, we have the money moving into a
different SS1 account, 5320. Three days later, there were a
series of $20,000 cashier's checks. I believe there were three
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 465
of them. One of them ultimately was deposited in an ES1 LLC
account at Navy Federal Credit Union. I have a picture of that
cashier's check here for $20,000.
Q
And what is the date of these transactions? What time period
are we in?
A
We're talking June 19, 2020, is the initial funding of the
EIDL loan. And then the cashier's checks happened three days
later.
Q
And did you also do a transaction log documenting this?
A
I did.
Q
And so if we could look at page 10. Is this the transaction
log for this money trace, for the previous money trace?
A
It is. I mean, if we start with the 5330 account, you see
the EIDL money coming in, the EIDL money going out. On the
bottom, you see the EIDL money being received. And then you see
that series of three, $20,000 cashier's checks. Those cashier's
checks, about a week later, were canceled. So those reversals
are represented in Row 3 up from the bottom.
And I showed the picture of the one, $20,000 cashier's check
that ultimately was deposited and then later reversed. The other
two never actually hit the bank account.
Q
On the day of the cashier's checks reversal, what else
happened in that account?
A
The DOJ seized all the remaining funds from that EIDL loan.
Q
If we could look at, Mr. Arnold, I believe it's page -- I
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 466
apologize, page 7. Clear that.
What is this transaction log?
A
So here, this is a transaction log of a $100,000 PPP loan for
ES1.
Q
And does this also show that a DOJ seizure eventually
happened on this money?
A
It does. There's a series of transactions that we have gone
through before where the $100,000 ultimately is moved to
different Wells Fargo accounts, and ultimately the DOJ seizes the
money.
Q
And if we could look at page 10 -- or page 9, I apologize.
Can you walk us through this transaction log? It looks like
there are a series of more cashier's checks.
A
Here again, we have an EIDL loan in this case, for Dituri
Construction. The money, again, is moved from the receiving
account to a secondary account. That secondary account has a
series of, again, $20,000 -- four of them in this case -- $20,000
cashier's checks. Those cashier's checks get reversed. And
ultimately the DOJ seizes the amount of the EIDL loan that's
remaining.
Q
And what is the date range of all of these transactions?
A
This is all towards the end of June 2020.
Q
Finally, if we could look at page 8 of Government's
Exhibit 209.
A
So here we have a PPP loan. This is for the Shibley MD, PLLC
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MICHAEL PETRON - Direct (Connelly)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 467
business. It comes in in the amount of $100,000. It gets moved
to a different Navy Federal Credit Union, 7528. There is a cash
withdrawal out of that account for $50,000, as well as another
withdrawal for $500. The remaining amount, the $49,500, that was
seized by the government.
Q
What is the date of the cash withdrawal for $50,000?
A
May 28, 2020.
Q
So we just looked through a series of, I think, five PPP loan
fundings that you traced through. Did you see any indicia of
payroll being paid out of those PPP and EIDL funds?
A
I did not.
Q
And based on your review of the account, was any of the PPP
money that came in used to pay payroll?
A
Not that I saw.
Q
What would you look for to see if any money was being spent
on payroll expenses?
A
I would be looking for transactions to payroll-processing
companies. In the event that there was no payroll-processing
company, I would be looking for similar amounts to lots and lots
of people, the 156 people, that were claimed on the applications.
Q
And so based on your review of the accounts before the PPP
and EIDL loans came in, starting around April of 2020, was there
any indicia of payroll?
A
Not that I saw.
Q
And based on your review of the accounts after the PPP loans
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 468
and the EIDL loans were funded, were any of -- was any of that
money used to pay payroll?
A
Not that I could determine.
MS. CONNELLY: Nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. Cross?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE:
Q
Good morning, Mr. Petron.
A
Good morning.
Q
Hi. Just to get this out of the way, you testified that you
work for $395 an hour?
A
I do.
Q
And as of August 31st of this year, you and your firm had
billed the taxpayers $31,117 for your work in the case?
A
I don't remember the precise number as of that date, but I
believe it was on the order of $60,000, is what my memory is,
that we have billed on this case.
Q
Okay. $60,000. Is that through today or through --
A
It would have been through the end of October, I believe.
Q
And up to 75 percent of your firm's business is with the DOJ?
A
No. No. No. No. As a percentage of my firm's business,
the DOJ probably is 1 percent. Of my personal time, it varies
between 40 to 45 percent.
Q
Got it. Have you ever testified for the defense in
opposition to the DOJ?
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 469
A
I have.
Q
Have you? In this district?
A
Not in this district.
Q
Well -- so you're obviously familiar with the PPP program?
A
I am.
Q
Yep.
Do you know, just taking a grander, sort of a 30,000-foot
view of the program, what percentage of the PPP funds have gone
to banks and other lenders?
MS. CONNELLY: Objection, Your Honor. Foundation.
THE COURT: If he knows, he can answer.
A
So what percentage? Just so I'm clear, what percentage of
the PPP funds went to financial institutions?
Q
Yes. As a fee.
A
Oh, I believe their fee was 1 percent.
Q
Okay. Was fee incentives -- or were fee incentives and loan
guarantees any part of your consideration in how you approach --
let me strike that and start over.
Did you consider the banks' verification process in any part
of your analysis?
A
I did not. I looked at the applications and I looked at the
banking records.
Q
Let me pull up Exhibit 1, page 5, again.
If you could --
MR. ARNOLD: Is that it?
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 470
MR. NANCE: Actually, leave it where it is.
Q
You are familiar with this general form, a 941?
A
I am.
Q
Yeah. Let me -- blow up the numbers 1 to 15, if you could.
You will see in this particular example -- this is an
admitted exhibit -- but if you will notice, there's 48 employees
listed on this example, and wages of $975,000.
A
I see that.
Q
You see that?
A
Yes.
Q
And it appears that the ultimate taxes due -- and, of course,
to back up, this is an employer's quarterly return, right,
payroll return?
A
It is a payroll reporting, yes, to the IRS.
Q
Reporting. There you go.
That the taxes due on that payroll, on the wages reported
paid out, is a set amount, it's $149,175 in this example. Yes?
A
Yes. That's what the document says.
Q
And there's a blank on 11 -- I'm sorry, let's go down to 13.
On line 13, there's a blank there, indicating that nothing has
been paid or deposited. And then on 14, there's a balance due
amount. Do you see that?
A
I do.
Q
Yeah.
Would this be an unusual filing for an employer to make, in
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 471
the sense that there's no deposit that's reflected?
A
You are just asking my opinion --
Q
Yeah. You are a CPA. Do you see this kind of thing?
A
I occasionally look at these things. I don't find this
unusual, no.
Q
Withholding taxes are generally due and payable immediately?
A
Usually it is quarterly, with true-up at the end of the tax
year.
Q
Okay. And is it more typical than not that the payments
would be paid either before or at the time of the filing of the
941, Form 941?
A
I would say it is typical that they are paid on or before the
filing. And I think on this document, there's an inconsistency
about that. If we looked at page 2, I think there's a
representation that they were paid.
Q
So it would be inconsistent on its face, it sounds like is
what you are saying?
A
I'm saying that I think there is an inconsistency between
this total deposits, on Row 13, with what is claimed on page 2.
Q
Let's look at page 2.
A
Oh, yeah. That is what I remember. So the top box of this
page 2 talks about the monthly deposit schedule.
Q
Okay. And so if this were properly filled out, this number
should have been reflected on the previous page, or --
A
It could be either way. I don't know what's proper for this
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 472
document. These numbers could be zero, to reflect what's
reflected on the first page. Or the zero that's on the first
page could reflect $149,000.
Q
I see. I mean, the document largely speaks for itself. But
it speaks with an ambiguity, it sounds like.
A
I think -- the documents, as I understand them, can be filled
out. Anyone can say anything. It doesn't mean these things
actually happened, as represented by this inconsistency in the
document.
Q
Okay. But if this is being presented as part of the
documentation for a loan application, it's something that you
would think would prevent -- a loan screener would pick up on and
ask about?
MS. CONNELLY: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Now, Mr. Petron, your analysis -- you can take that down --
made some assumptions, didn't it? You assumed that all of the
expenses and all of the payroll expenditures would have gone
through the accounts that you examined, didn't you?
A
I didn't necessarily assume that. I looked for that.
Q
Okay. You didn't find any reflected in the accounts?
A
I did not.
Q
Okay. So if there was some cash payment, if cash payments
were part of what actually happened, your analysis wouldn't have
detected that?
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 473
A
Just so I am clear, you're asking if there were cash payments
for the payroll expenses that were claimed?
Q
Yes. Yes.
A
Would I have found those levels of cash payments in the bank?
Q
You wouldn't have, right?
A
If there was a million dollars a month in cash payments being
made, there would be some evidence of that, somewhere in the
banking records.
Q
Okay. I mean, there would be -- because people receiving
cash need to spend it somewhere, is that your thought; or need to
deposit it somewhere?
A
So if your -- if I understand the hypothetical, there's a
million dollars, give or take, based upon my analysis, of
payroll. So if the assumption is it's being paid in cash -- I'm
assuming that's your question.
Q
Yes.
A
That means the million dollars has to come from somewhere,
right? So for all of that transaction, month-after-month, to be
done outside of the financial institution and have no trace of it
whatsoever, just in my opinion, I would find that extremely
unlikely.
Q
It's -- of course maybe it's obvious, you can't analyze
something that isn't -- that is ephemeral. I mean, cash
itself -- cash payments are, by their nature, that way. They're
not -- they don't really leave a paper trail.
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 474
A
I guess, again, just my opinion, if I run a business, if I
was making cash payments to my employees to the tune of a million
dollars a month to 156 people, I would sure want a receipt. I
would want there to be almost more documentation available to me,
because I would want to make sure I was covered from a claim by
one of those employees.
So to me, again, just my opinion, at that level of cash, I
would expect there to be documentation somewhere to support when
the payments were made, how much they were made, who they were
made to, what they were made for. And I didn't see any evidence
of that.
Q
All right. I mean, you are a CPA. You are literally a
by-the-book kind of person, correct?
A
I literally am a by-the-book person.
Q
You document what you do?
A
I do.
Q
You have receipts for what you -- if you ever spend cash, you
would have receipts for it?
A
I do not keep receipts for my personal cash expenditures. I
do not. But I'm not running a business in cash, so...
Q
Okay. And your business probably files quarterly tax, 941s,
for employees?
A
We do.
Q
And you probably file W-3s and W-2s, et cetera?
A
Luckily, I have an accounting department that handles a lot
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 475
of that for us. But, yes, we do file all of those.
Q
Did you ever examine Mr. Shibley's prior tax returns?
A
When you say "prior," can you elaborate?
Q
I mean, did you see his 2019 return?
A
I don't recall seeing a filed tax return. I do recall seeing
something at some point, but I don't believe it was a filed
return.
Q
Okay. Did you see an unfiled return?
A
That's my memory, that I did see -- there was some
correspondence and something about some tax returns.
Q
Okay. How about a 2018 return?
A
I'm sorry. I don't recall.
Q
You don't recall. I mean, if that were -- if it had been
filed, is that -- well, I will withdraw that.
Let me pull up Exhibit 208, page 24. I'm actually looking
for -- let's try No. -- page 3. I'm sorry. It's Exhibit 209.
209, page -- is there a page 3 to that?
I was looking for one of your fancy charts.
A
What was the topic?
Q
Well, the topic, you were comparing -- you were doing this
implied payroll and you were doing extrapolations.
A
So that would be 208 and --
Q
Let's do 208, page 8, how about that?
Yeah. Okay. This is one example.
This -- well, again, if there were cash payments going on
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 476
outside the money system, the financial system, that would --
would that change your calculation here?
A
No.
And it's that question which is precisely why I have tried to
capture the new money on the right side, right? Because if there
are cash payments being made to employees outside of the
financial institutions, the cash has to come from somewhere --
Q
Right.
A
-- right? And so I'm trying to understand and see if cash is
coming from somewhere.
Q
Okay.
A
And in this case, at least based upon my calculations, there
is no cash coming in.
Q
You didn't find it?
A
So that must mean, then -- and this is why I'm saying it's
very highly unlikely in my mind, it's just my opinion -- is that
the cash doesn't just have to be being paid to employees outside
of the financial institution; the cash has to be being
received --
Q
In cash?
A
-- in cash outside of the financial institutions.
Q
And if that were happening, you would have found it, right?
It wouldn't be part of this?
A
It would be -- if that was happening, you're right, I
wouldn't find it. But I would not expect a medical practice to
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 477
be able to generate cash outside of financial institutions.
You're billing insurance companies, stuff is happening in
financial institutions. And if it was happening, I would expect
there to be voluminous documentation around that cash. You would
have to understand who you were billing, how you were collecting
it, how you were paying taxes on it. There would be a mountain
of paperwork that would be necessary.
Q
If you were a conventional record keeper, correct?
A
If you were just trying to understand and track what you were
doing, anyone would need to do that.
Q
If you have a conventional patient caseload, that might be
the case?
A
I would say not even that, sir. You have an obligation to
pay taxes on money you receive, so you need to be able to track
how much money you receive, who you are receiving it from, and
ensure that you have proper documentation. You need to do that
on the back end too, when you were paying employees. So that's
why, in the cash world, I would have expected even more
documentation than in the non-financial institution world.
Q
Well, and if you were involving insurance, that would trigger
even more paperwork, wouldn't it?
A
Well, the insurance, when a -- insurance carriers, to my
knowledge and experience, would not be paying in cash. There
would be --
Q
Right.
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 478
A
-- financial institutions involved.
Q
Right.
And if you were avoiding insurance, the reverse may well be
true?
A
So if you are avoiding insurance, then you are saying
patients are paying you?
Q
Yes.
A
So if patients are paying you, I would say they pay you in
check, they pay you in credit card. Both of which would be, you
know, records in the financial institutions. If they were paying
you in cash, again, I would think that you would need to be
keeping track of that cash for your reporting obligations.
Q
Okay. It sounds like you and Mr. Shibley probably travel in
different circles?
A
I can't speak to that.
MR. NANCE: No further questions.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MS. CONNELLY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. Put your mask on,
please.
MS. CONNELLY: The government rests.
THE COURT: So you want to take this time to consult,
Mr. Nance?
MR. NANCE: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. We will start up again at one
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MICHAEL PETRON - Cross (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 479
o'clock, folks. We will take a little bit longer lunch.
All right. We will be in recess.
THE CLERK: Court is in recess.
(Recess.)
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 480
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The following occurred outside the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: Please be seated.
So Mr. Nance, what's your pleasure?
MR. NANCE: Your Honor, it's our intention to have
Mr. Shibley testify.
THE COURT: All right. So you are ready for the jury?
Are you ready for the jury?
MR. NANCE: Yes. We probably would like him seated
before they come in.
THE COURT: That's fine.
All right. Bring in the jury.
(The following occurred in the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: Please be seated, folks.
Swear the defendant, please.
ERIC SHIBLEY,
having been sworn under oath, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NANCE:
Q
Would you please introduce yourself to the jury.
A
Eric Shibley.
Q
Let me start by just asking you, point-blank, did you ever --
hello. You can look at me and then answer to them.
A
Okay. Sorry about that.
Q
Okay. Did you ever intend to defraud any bank?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 481
A
No.
Q
Or any institution?
A
No.
Q
Did you ever intend to launder any ill-gotten gains of any
sort?
A
No.
Q
Why don't you take a few minutes to tell us about your early
background. Where were you born?
A
I was born in Bangladesh, in a port city called Chittagong.
It is about the size of, probably, Seattle. I grew up the first
five years of my life there. And then we -- our family moved to
Dhaka, the capital city, which I would say is maybe one and a
half times bigger than New York City.
Q
Let me stop you for just a second. How old are you now?
A
Me? I'm 42.
Q
Okay. So that would put your birth year when?
A
1978.
Q
Okay.
A
Yeah.
So I grew up in the city, Dhaka.
I had a lot of outdoor activities. It was late '80s, early
'90s, and at that time we still didn't have the internet, or
apartments, or high-rise, or we didn't have TV channels, as many
as we have now. Spent lot of time outdoors with people,
playmates, buddies, friends. A lot of soccer games. All sorts
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 482
of games, all day.
I was top student in my class all along, my entire life. In
fact, when I was in 8th grade, 1990, I was selected as a talent
pool. In the entire city of Dhaka, there was only ten people
selected. I came within that.
My education has been free all along in my life. Up until
today, I never had to spend any money for education in the United
States and in Bangladesh. In fact, after 8th grade, I was paid
money, in various different forms, for help.
I finished my high school with distinctions. College. I
went to a regular college there, Notre Dame College. I had
science, physics, chemistry, math, biology. I had very good
scores in all of those. After that, I tried to figure out what I
would do. I had --
Q
Let me just ask you. Will you tell us -- just touch on it,
how did your experience growing up in Bangladesh differ from what
you think would be the more typical experience of people your
age.
A
I have seen unspeakable horrors: Starvation, poverty. Words
can't explain.
Q
Why was your situation different?
A
Because, see, Bangladesh got liberated in 1971, with the
biggest genocide that happened after the Second World War. And
there is no example, even as of today, of any other than Second
World War, that big genocide. And after that followed a famine
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 483
in 1974, where I still -- You can look it up on YouTube. A truck
full of children, dead children, just thrown like this, into the
fields. They had so many of them. So it took a long time for
the country to recover from that and to come to where it is now.
When I was born, average mom in Bangladesh had seven
children. Life expectancy was below 50. Now it is 76. Average
child is less than two. Infant mortality at that time in
Bangladesh was approaching around 50 percent. Now it is less
than 2.5 percent.
So the country has come a long way. But when I was a child,
when I was growing up in that country, it did not happen at that
time. It happened in the last 15 years, mostly.
So I have seen starvation. I have seen -- I can still
remember 1991, there was a massive refugee influx in Burma. And
one day, I was sitting in front of a field full of children, less
than seven years old; they all had their parents shot by Burmese
military. In 1991, refugees came en masse, like millions at that
time.
My dad was judicial secretary of relief ministry at that time
in Bangladesh. So we went in to --
THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. Can you say that again?
A
We went in, me and my dad, we went to the United Nations HCR,
it is a refugee commission, something like UN branch for
refugees. So those officials and my dad and I have seen a field
full of children. They cross the border -- there's a river in
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November 17, 2021 - 484
between -- mostly by themselves. There was very little help.
Maybe some adults. And they just throw them on the other side on
the Bangladesh border, and we just picked them up. This kind of
situation.
And the problem is still there. There is probably around
10 million of them now living there. But it's mostly unknown.
People don't know about Bangladesh that much, what happens there,
what's going on. The amount of struggle, the amount of trauma,
is mostly unknown. And what I have seen growing up was
profoundly enlightening. It has given me a lot of insight and a
lot of inspiration to do a lot of things.
I always used to say, I have had 250 million -- 250,000 women
got raped, and 3 million people got murdered in a matter of
couple of months during the liberation war. And we still won
that war. And so I came from a background like that.
So I always used to think that almost any obstacle I can
overcome.
Q
To what extent has your exposure to that shaped who you are
here today?
A
I became who I am at the age of, I would say, twelve or
earlier. I was very much loved by my parents. And I have seen a
lot of poverty, trauma, children without parents. I have seen
people dying for food. But I have seen amazing social cohesion,
people helping each other, people -- sorry -- people doing
anything they can in situations, knowing how bad it is.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 485
I can gave you an example. A couple of years ago --
Bangladesh is not a rich country. It has a population around
60 percent of the entire United States, and the size of less than
Washington State. So as you understand, it's overpopulated.
And then another, around 5 million refugees came into that
country within a couple of months. We did not turn one person
out. We did not even ask for help. We shared whatever we had
with them.
Q
Was this experience and this upbringing, a factor in your
decision to pursue the study of medicine?
A
Yes.
Q
How so?
A
When I went to medical school -- my medical school was
established in Mitford Hospital in 1848, by Mr. Mitford, a
captain. There was -- when I was in medical school, I had to
literally step on bricks that is placed on water to reach my
patients. When I was a third-year medical student, in my
clinical rotation, and I'm working with the trainee doctors,
residents and registers behind them, taking patients' histories,
I went from one room to another, came back, after eating
something, and said -- passing through the balcony, that whole
balcony got full of patients. There was that much pressure on
the hospital. They didn't have places to keep these patients.
They're all in the -- forget about beds, you don't worry about
beds, they are all on the floor.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 486
And they needed medical attention so bad, I had one of -- I
can tell you a story of one of my fellow students with me, he was
taking -- he sat down next to me. I sat down to take vitals for
one patient. I stood up. He's not standing up. I asked him,
"Hey, what happened?" He said, "I was checking the pulse, the
pulse just left. I think she died."
So I have seen children coming in almost skeletal from
cholera and diarrhea, fluid loss. I myself got the IV line
going, fluid going. They revived. They survived. I literally,
before I even finished medical school, I don't -- I haven't
counted how many lives got saved, just by me, learning how to do
IV lines. And I would put a saline in -- started.
Q
When did you finish medical school in Bangladesh?
A
The classes and courses, I finished everything by the year
2000. I went into medical school when I was 17. It was 1996.
So, yeah, 17 and a half, almost 18. So by 2000, I was finished
with all of my courses, all the -- one exam left. I had to wait
one year to do that exam, because I was too far ahead of my
fellow classmates.
So there was a thing that if I'm in the real minority, within
like 5 percent in the course, in classes, then they cannot
graduate me before there's the certain presentation of people to
sit down and exam with me.
So I waited 2002, I believe it was September. And that's
when I finished, the final course. Exam.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 487
Q
Did you become a licensed physician in Bangladesh?
A
Yes. I became licensed. And I had my training in
Bangladesh, medical training. I did six months of surgery. I
did a six-month medicine rotation training. Massive amount of
work. I almost lived in the hospital.
Q
When did you move to the United States?
A
Oh, I moved to the United States 2005. May 26th, I took the
flight. May 28th, I landed.
Q
When was --
A
L.A. Airport.
Q
Why did you decide to leave Bangladesh, your home, and move
to the United States?
A
Long story short, basically, I thought that I can be more
helpful if I have a broader venue, or -- see, the way it happens
is, Bangladesh is a small country, I have never been outside that
place. And I haven't seen -- it's a very homogenous population.
And the country -- everybody looks the same. Everybody talks the
same. There's no -- there's nothing different about it.
I thought I would be doing better in a bigger mix, and I have
more to contribute, if I'm given opportunity. So I want to give
myself a better venue to do more with my life.
Q
So what barriers did you face when you came to the United
States?
A
First barrier is when I landed in LAX Airport, I looked
around. First of all, I never spoke English in my life. In
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 488
Bangladesh, yes, medical books are in English, but we don't speak
English. Well, I looked around. Everybody looks different, and
nobody matches with anybody else. There is six different races
of people I saw right away.
And, well, I had my fair share of culture shock. Pretty soon
I was -- in a way, I was -- first one and a half years in the
United States, I was sheltered. I didn't have to learn English
or anything. I was within Bangladesh community in New York City,
Queens, East Amherst neighborhood. East Amherst, Jackson
Heights, is overwhelmingly, like, Indian, Bangladesh population.
I know all of their languages. I know all if their languages.
So, and I have -- I didn't really have to assimilate into the
outside at that time. But one thing I did is that my -- I was
staying with one of my uncles. He said that: You probably
should get your medical license through here right away. So
within a month, I sat for United States Medical Licensing exam.
I scored 91 percentile.
I didn't even have a book. I just said just get the fee
going, and drop me where the computer is, the exam is. That's
it.
So looking at my results, my uncle said that you scored 91
out of 100, without one book. So I'm not going to just let you
fall. So you are going to do this step two as well, and pretty
soon. So I said okay.
I do not have any doctor or medical people in my entire New
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 489
York community that I lived there. They're all -- they work in
restaurants. They're -- the highest, what is it, correctional
officer, one of my uncles.
So basically they say that you're good in studies, so you
study. You don't have to go to the restaurant to do this. And
we don't think you are suitable for that. So let -- they let me
get to the second exam, which I think is September -- August, the
first one, step one. September, the step two. I passed that one
flying colors. Then the clinical side, on my birthday,
December 10th, that was the final step, I passed that exam.
So I got certified as a medical doctor. And I stayed by
December, third week -- I came in the end of May, so it would be
four and a half month, with good scores. So seeing that my uncle
told me that you should have apply for residency, training here.
I basically told him that it's too late for that, the season for
application is June. I think you start September 1st, and now
it's the end of December. So I have to wait a year.
That turned out really good. I get to see the country. I
was able to go to many places, Wisconsin. I had a green
backpack. I would just go and travel around. I have seen Ohio,
Michigan, New York.
MR. WERNER: Your Honor, at this point, I'm going to
object to the narrative.
THE COURT: Yes. Ask another question.
Let's pick up the pace.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 490
Q
Tell us --
THE COURT: Mr. Nance. Mr. Nance, let's pick up the
pace.
MR. NANCE: Yes, sir.
Q
Tell us how you got to Washington State.
A
Washington State. I came 2010, after finishing my residency
training in Nashville, Tennessee at Meharry Medical College,
which is a historically black medical school and residency
training program.
I was accepted. I think I got 15 interviews. And I picked
that place as my first choice. So I got that one. So I did my
residency training there for three years. We had VA hospital,
half the time and Nashville General Hospital the rest of the
time. I have seen the Korean --
MR. WERNER: Objection, Your Honor. This is not
responsive to counsel's question.
THE COURT: Ask another question, please.
Q
I'm trying. I'm still trying to get you to Washington State.
If you could summarize, you have kind of largely done that, when
did you arrive in Washington State?
A
July 2010.
Q
Okay. Did you have a medical job at the time you came?
A
Yes.
Q
Where was that?
A
I accepted a job in Snoqualmie, Washington.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 491
Q
Okay.
A
Yeah.
Q
And what was your general field of practice? What kind of
medical work were you doing?
A
Essentially it was a nursing home, 25 beds. Only one
medicine/surgery bed and 24 nursing home beds. And that was my
first job.
Q
Okay.
A
And I did not know a lot of things, that I learned right
away. When I get out of residency, I did not know how the real
world in medical practice happens here. So that job opened my
eyes.
Q
Did you later work in hospitals?
A
I worked in a lot of hospitals, I worked in MultiCare Good
Samaritan Hospital in Puyallup. I was one of their hospitalists.
I worked in VA hospitals in Kansas, Montana, Wyoming, as an
emergency room physician. I worked for Life Care Nursing Home, I
was their chief doctor in Washington State. I was in charge of
all six of their nursing homes.
I worked the -- occasion hospital work, wherever there's
needed. I covered nursing homes for Sound Physicians, in the
Puget Sound area. Probably around 15 nursing homes,
approximately. I worked in Puget Sound area for Sound
Physicians.
After that, I quite -- by that time, I was quite oriented by
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 492
working in different settings. Hospital, inpatient, ICU,
emergency room, VA, and nursing home.
Q
Let me ask you. What contact, or what -- what was the
nature -- how would you describe your patient base? This is
after the nursing home tenure, what -- did your patients fit into
any particular category?
A
By the time I worked in these places, I already got
disillusioned by the way medicine has been practiced in these
places. Especially my first experience was a bigger cultural
shock than coming to this country, where I was ordered to place
patients into comfort care because their Medicare days were
coming to an end. They had a chart that lists how many days
left. Social worker working with it and telling me this, this --
these people need to go, or put on comfort care, essentially.
Q
I'm sorry?
A
Put on comfort care. Start a morphine line, and they added a
line, and let them go in 24 hours.
Q
You mean die?
A
Yes. Or they have to be discharged.
Q
Discharge the patients or kill them, is what you are saying?
A
Yes. It's an order.
Q
Okay.
A
Because their Medicare days are over. Nobody will pay for
them if they stay and occupy a bed.
Q
Okay.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 493
A
So what will happen is, you have to come back. If they keep
staying there, they're losing a bed, they're losing revenue. If
you make it alive outside and come back again in that place, they
have to keep them for a month or two without getting paid.
Q
Were there other frustrations that you had with the medical
system?
A
Yes.
Q
What were those?
A
I was -- what I have seen, I couldn't take it, essentially,
the power, the power among the doctors, the politics of it. The
lack of -- absolute lack of autonomy for doctors. Absolute
disregard for medical decisions of patient's life or health
shocked me.
Q
Why didn't you complain to someone, tell someone?
A
I did complain. And that landed me into big trouble, big. I
complained in writing. I talked with everybody. I was novice.
I didn't know who to go to, who to talk with. I talked to the
other doctors. They laughed. Some of them said: You're just
new.
And in one particular incident, I had an interaction with
another doctor.
MS. CONNELLY: Objection, again.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. NANCE: Okay.
Q
Did you -- at some point did you decide to leave the more
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November 17, 2021 - 494
institutional setting and go into a small private practice?
A
Yes. I decided that it's too much. I'm not going to be part
of that.
Q
Okay.
A
And I met Dr. Douglas Hong in a nursing home in West Seattle,
Park West. And he invited me that he wants to retire as soon as
possible, but he could not find a doctor to take over his
practice. Would I be willing to work with him. That was 2014,
early. So I said: I am doing other stuff, but maybe a couple of
days a week I can work with you. That had increased to -- keep
increasing as he wants me to participate more.
Q
I'm sorry, was his practice in West Seattle?
A
West Seattle.
Q
Was he at the 3600 47th Avenue address?
A
Yes.
Q
We have seen a photo of that clinic, it's in the exhibits.
Is that the location?
A
Yes. There is 15 rooms there. And it was pretty busy at
that time.
Q
Okay.
A
At the same time, I had -- I was in a transition from
hospital practice to outpatient practice. So I had another
office in Arlington, Washington, on Smoky Point Boulevard. I
think the address is 16400 Smoky Point Boulevard.
So I start picking up a patient base in Snohomish County and
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 495
getting transfers from Dr. Hong in West Seattle as well. So it
was kind of like 50/50 in the beginning. And I was, at the same
time, reducing my shifts in the hospital setting.
Q
How many patients, approximately, were you serving and
treating, once you began associating with Dr. Hong?
A
Yeah. Dr. Hong had 800 patients at that time. And he
intended to gradually hand me over all of them. And I wanted to
have a smooth landing. So I requested him that I may be able to
get going with, like, a couple of hundred in the beginning, and
then slowly take over his entire practice. The whole process
took a year. By July -- June, I think, June 2015, he finished
the transition. He handed me over 800 patients. They're mostly
from Seattle, West Seattle area.
By that time, my practice picked up in Arlington, Snohomish
County. And I had a couple of hundred patients there. And many
of them were drug addicts and looking for help for mental health
problems. They're workers, construction workers. Former
construction workers, that got hooked up on pain pills by
doctors, then cut off from their prescriptions. Then they had to
rely on heroin. Got kicked out of their Boeing job. Became
homeless, arrested, court-ordered for getting clean. Couldn't
find a doctor. Heard my name, came to see me.
Q
Why did you gravitate toward this type of patient?
A
It's my background. I am very familiar with mental health
problems. I have extensive education on that. I read books,
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 496
and -- volumes of books on that. And I had, because of my
background, experience, and my education, and reading habit, I
was very aware of the trauma, the impact of trauma in people's
life, especially early-childhood trauma. What I found out, it is
not different in America. It's the same. You don't have to be a
combat soldier. You don't have to go to a refugee camp in Syria,
Congo, or Sudan, or Bangladesh, to find out that the trauma is
around us. And it happens quite early. Very soon I found out a
massive amount of people get molested by their caregivers.
MR. WERNER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Sounds like you are saying that you're acutely aware of
ongoing suffering by a large --
A
And its impact and the suffering especially on children, how
childhood neglect and abuse causes people to have a problem down
the road when they grow up. And many of the problem when they
grow up, apparently all you have -- we throw levels at them.
When they're children, we call them -- half a dozen diagnoses,
primarily meaningless. When they grow up, we throw some more
diagnoses: You have anxiety or depression, you have this, you
have that.
And then through a polypharmacy, you throw a lot of
medication at them, which has no research, has shown all
researchers are paid by multibillion-dollar pharmaceuticals, has
shown no result better than a placebo.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 497
Q
So, in your view, is the medical profession adequately
addressing that part of the --
A
Absolutely not. The medical profession is light years away
from that in America.
THE COURT: Mr. Nance. Mr. Nance.
MR. NANCE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let's move on to this case.
MR. NANCE: Yes, sir.
Q
Let's do just that. Thank you.
So you're practicing medicine. And yet the case is largely
about, we have heard for two days now, about real estate dealings
and PPP applications. So how did you get from being a doctor,
treating these many patients with this caseload, to getting
involved in real estate?
A
Yes. So it started with the patients. Many of my patients,
as I mentioned, that they're former chronic-pain patients and
mental-health patients, that turn into, what they call, drug
dependency, chemical dependency. And many of the medical
problems that I faced, I found out that the real problem is not
medication or lack of medication, it's their mental background,
mental-health history. That they have probably grown up in
foster care, home-to-home, mother getting beat up, adverse
childhood experiences, child abuse.
Q
So, again, what --
A
And --
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 498
Q
We're hearing that there's a lot of suffering out there.
A
Yes.
Q
I think everybody gets that.
A
Yeah.
Q
It's what -- how is that impacting you in your medical
practice and how does that -- how do you transition from that,
toward the stuff that we have been talking about in court here?
A
Okay. The transition happened -- I figured out that one of
the best ways to rehab somebody is to get them becoming
productive. I have example after example of patients who was
living in greenbelt now works in Boeing. Now, this population
has the skill. They have worked in construction before. They
somehow fell out of their job. They needed a chance.
At the same time, I had another group of patients, because
I'm internal medicine, primary care is my specialty. Whatever I
do, I'm certified for a lot of things, but that's still my
training. So I had a broad range of patients, like primary care,
addiction, mental health, all of it.
So many of my patients are homeowners in Snohomish County, as
well as Seattle, at that time. And me, I personally -- I spend
16 to 18 hours a day with my medical practice at that time, and
spent a lot of time with the patients. So I became personal -- I
have been told many times that I'm very easy to approach and I'm
a personable character. So they would open up to me, and ask me
advice for a lot of other things. Just -- it's not like giving a
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 499
prescription and bye-bye.
So I had a group of patients, homeowners, that needed work in
their home done. And I had another group of patients who needed
to work, who needed to be able to get a chance in life. Just
somebody accepting them. They are felons. They came out of
prison. Getting clean from drugs. Shunned by the society,
family. Nobody wants to deal with them.
So initially, I think it was around 2017, I started
connecting these two groups. So I would basically introduce them
and say: This person needs his plumbing repaired, or his
flooring done, or house painted, could you go please help him?
Somebody needs a roofer. I tell a patient: I got roofer, no
problem. How many? I got a dozen roofers on my list, no
problem. I give you the best.
So I would send the roofer guy to the address. Help out and
make some money. And I did that quite a bit for almost a year,
doing the matchmaking.
At some point I figure out it's a win-win situation for a lot
of people; the homeowners are getting their home repaired, my
other group of patients making some money, and I'm generating
quite a bit of work. Like, I would sometimes later find out how
much money they made and how much work they have done, once I
make the connections. It spreads. They have their friends,
other construction workers. This homeowner knows ten other
homeowners that needs work done.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 500
So eventually, intricate web kind of connection being made in
Snohomish and King County; me being the initial catalyst. Maybe
one phone number exchange has created five other connections.
And initially I didn't understand how much it is working in my
background. After seven to eight months, I figured out that it's
getting spread, to the point that a lot of people knows me, in
Snohomish County and even in Seattle, in the east side. I became
well known, as a doctor, and as somebody who can get a worker for
cheap at the drop of a hat.
Q
Were you -- did your role evolve beyond just being a
matchmaker?
A
Yes. So after doing it for a year, I -- a little less than a
year, I figured out that I can make a commission out of it. And
I started making some money out of it by doing that. But nowhere
near running it as a business, or hiring anybody, or paying
anybody salary, or anything like that.
Q
When did that start?
A
That started -- I would say it's a gradual process. But it
started end of '17, 2017.
Q
Okay. Well, tell us about, you know, workers. Did you have
people working for you doing some of this work?
A
I did use some of them. Two of my rentals up in Snohomish
and Skagit County that -- I bought one for $40,000 and the other
for $60,000, when the market dropped in 2010. And I did -- I
mean, earlier David Madrid, he testified that he sold those two
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 501
properties. But they sold for five to six times more than what I
bought for, eventually. But I had to do some repair work. And,
of course, my patients, they helped me out, with connections.
And I got them done.
2018, the market -- the market changed in 2013, April. And I
was looking for opportunity when the market drops a little bit,
so that I can buy some more houses. The opportunity came in
2018, summer. I picked up three houses in South Seattle at that
time. Very quick succession, like within a couple of months
apart. And by that time, I already have -- my crew is working.
Not a major crew. But I had -- I could pull bigger numbers if I
wanted to. But I was operating in a smaller scale at that time,
like doing small renovation jobs, like changing the highest
amount that I did, like replacing twelve windows in a house; that
would be the biggest at that point. Painting houses. Flooring.
Repairing faucets. Those kind of things. I was doing all along
by that time. Some landscaping. Replacing cabinets. Things
like that.
Q
Let's move ahead to 2019. What's the state of your medical
practice at that point?
A
2019, by that time, I was disillusioned with the new setting
as well. I had, by that time, in my registry, 1,500-plus
patients. I do not believe in keeping a patient forever as my
patient. I'm about fixing them and giving them the tools they
need. And if you need prescriptions, there's a lot of places to
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 502
get prescriptions, no problem. But this is how you are going to
follow it.
And I hit a wall with insurance companies, documentation
issues. I had almost a library full of medical records. Dr.
Hong gave me, like, an entire wall full of medical records. And
I had another wall, massive, when I look at it. I think --
probably glad we probably have less paper than that.
So I, by that time, I started doing EMR, electronic medical
records. But I dare not try to scan all of these papers and try
to get in there. So I started EMR with the new patients.
Q
What was different about the new patients and how they paid
you?
A
Oh. So, I gradually moved out of insurance. It was a -- it
was a massive amount of work to collect money from them. And I
was a critical service that I was doing, kind of like a one-stop
shopping, where you get a primary care, you get an addiction
doctor, a mental-health provider. You've got almost everything
taken care of. And weight loss. And this person is available at
the drop of a hat. You call him, it never misses, you get him in
one call. And he will see you in 30 minutes to one hour.
Q
How were you paid in this situation?
A
My patients are more than happy to pay me, to save me from
the insurance BS, I mean.
Q
Are you paid in cash, or --
A
Yes. I was -- I turned completely cash. I had a payment
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 503
system based on medical issues, not based on some insurance
calls.
Q
So a related question. In 2019, you have cut back on stuff.
Have you -- has your patient caseload declined during that
period?
A
Oh, yes. Definitely. I almost -- 2019, I became, from, yes,
I reduced down to, I would say, I remember at some point the
Department of Health investigator asked me: Dr. Shibley, can you
give us a list of your breakdown of your patient numbers? I
think I got that e-mail December 2018. And the number I gave him
-- gave her a month later was 150, altogether.
Q
At the same time your medical practice is declining, are you
ramping up your real estate --
A
Yes.
Q
-- activity?
A
Yes.
Q
In what way?
A
So back in 2018, summer of, I bought three houses. So I
needed to repair them right way to make them livable. One of
them was a situation where you couldn't even get in. I bought
that without seeing it, because it was under a forest. So I did
those quickly. And then --
Q
Did you -- I mean, did you hire people -- did you hire
workers to help you do the renovations?
A
Oh, yeah. I had people -- I had people in all three
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 504
counties.
Q
How did you pay them?
A
Cash.
Q
Why? Why pay them in cash?
A
That's all they know. They basically -- that's what they
asked for. They demanded. And it would be one of the most
awkward things to even talk about anything else. Like if I tried
to say: Here is a check for you, I mean, they are going to laugh
at me.
Q
Where would they cash a check?
A
There is no place. Money Tree, maybe. But it will require a
couple of phone calls I have to respond to, verify. They have to
charge the customer 10 percent, which -- not one person willing
to pay. They're hard on money. And that's pretty much the only
option they have.
Another option would be if I take them to my bank, write a
check, and ask for cash in the counter, from the banker, and then
hand over the cash to them. That is the only other option. That
requires a trip to my bank with the worker, with me inside the
vehicle. We're going for a trip. It is highly impractical to
take each one of them to my bank, for every day. The way they're
used to is: Here, you get paid. Five of them. That's how you
pay. And that saves the trip to the bank. That saves their trip
to the Money Tree. And that gives me -- basically that's the
socially accepted way of doing things there. I mean, anything
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 505
else is not acceptable.
Q
Where did these folks, these workers come from? Where did
they live?
A
Boy. Under the bridge. We call it shanties. Homeless.
Couch surfing.
Q
The other question is, what kind of workers were they?
A
Sorry?
Q
What kind of workers were they? What kind of work were they
capable of doing?
A
Well, they're pretty skilled. They have a background of
doing -- or many of them had licenses. Just fell out of the
system, because of addiction. Because of whatever. Maybe they
went to jail maybe. Maybe they had mental problems. Maybe they
were in financial -- something happened to them, bad. And they
fell out of the favor of society. And they were -- they didn't
really have an option to go and present themselves to somewhere
and say: Hey, please give me a job.
Their story of people who -- just like David Madrid came
around earlier and said meth head, I don't use that term. But
that's the thing that they're used to hearing that, oh, just go
home. They're not accepted anywhere. Nobody would employ them.
They're -- some of them, I found veterans, that had to do carpet
bombings and so they are traumatized.
MR. WERNER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. Ask another question.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 506
Q
So you're paying these folks in cash?
A
Yes.
Q
All right. How are you being paid for projects that you have
them do?
A
Okay. So at any scale, you name it, my customers that I'm
serving, the homeowners, they will go to their bank, pull money
out of their bank, and hand me over the cash. That is the way.
I did not accept any check, almost ever. In fact, I don't
remember ever accepting a check for any amount. I have done a
lot of work. I have done ground-up work, without accepting any
check. And where they get the cash from, it's pretty much their
matter. And I don't get into that detail. But they brought cash
to me.
Q
How -- were there significant expenses that you incurred in
doing your real estate projects?
A
Yes. I had -- it's hard to imagine, like, how expensive real
estate can get. The labor costs. I'm getting cheap labor, yes.
Material. You call in Roto-Rooter to get plumbing done in your
basement. They're going to run a camera, do a $500 camera for
free, but send you estimate: Oh, we need $25,000, half down.
That is not including rough-in, that is not including fixtures,
that is not including nothing on the top. Just pipes. Now,
so -- did you ask me anything?
Q
Well, I think you generally answered it. I was going to ask
you about, just generally about some of your projects. And I
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 507
would ask you, if you could be shown Defense Exhibit A-4. Are
you able to call that up?
MR. WERNER: It's coming now.
MR. NANCE: Okay.
Q
Okay. First of all, this is a multipage document. It's
about -- I'm counting 22 photographs. What are these?
A
These are work done by my workers.
Q
Okay. These are exterior shots of construction?
A
Yes. Yes. Roof repair.
Q
Yeah. Is this a representative sample of some of the things
you have done?
A
Yes.
Q
Work crews have done?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Did you take these photographs?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Do they accurately represent what they purport to be?
A
Yeah. I was going to explain the previous one.
Q
Okay. Well, hang on.
MR. NANCE: We would offer A-4.
MR. WERNER: It's my understanding all of these
pictures -- it's my understanding that the testimony is that all
of these pictures are jobs that Mr. Shibley has --
MR. NANCE: I think so. I think that's the testimony.
MR. WERNER: If that's the testimony, no objection.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 508
THE COURT: Admitted.
(Exhibit No. A-4 admitted.)
MR. NANCE: If they could be published, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q
Here we are. Let's just run through these quickly. What
are -- what's in front of you there?
A
So this is a mother-in-law unit.
Q
Your workers renovated this?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. What part of town is this in?
A
It's in South Seattle.
Q
Okay. What about No. 2?
A
This is in my office.
Q
Is that the roof of your office?
A
Yes.
Q
Three?
A
That is in South Seattle. It's a landscaping and window --
those windows are cut.
Q
What about four?
A
This is a job, that was a painting job going on.
Q
It may be cut off. Was there a way to -- or not. Okay.
That's a little better.
A
Yeah.
Q
Okay. Five?
A
This one is an underground plumbing connection.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 509
Q
Okay.
Let's just kind of keep it -- so six is more landscaping.
A
Yeah. Fence, landscaping.
Q
How about seven?
A
Fence.
Q
Who put up the fence? Your workers?
A
Yes.
Q
Eight?
A
Yes. This one started plumbing there, connecting the
internal plumbing from the main house coming from the street,
getting a plumbing line there into -- to get a bathroom going on
down the road.
Q
Okay. Let's just leaf through the rest of them. If I have a
question I will ask you. Nine?
A
Paint job.
Q
Ten?
A
This one? Oh, this is a concrete job.
Q
Okay. What about 11?
A
Underground plumbing line, coming from all the way from the
street.
Q
Okay. What about 12?
A
These are my bobcats.
Q
Your bobcats?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you own bobcats, or did you rent bobcats?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 510
A
I use them, I keep them there.
Q
Thirteen?
A
These are sidings, the floor sidings.
Q
Okay. How about 14?
A
This is an electric line going between a house and a
mother-in-law. The mother-in-law getting a new electric line,
and --
Q
And how about --
A
The main power line getting improved to 485 amp.
Q
How about 15?
A
Landscaping job, to reduce the angle of the slope. This is
where the bobcat comes in, to get this thing leveled. And have
my guys go run it for a couple of days, and it should be level
like that.
Q
Okay. How about 16?
A
Roof repair.
Q
Seventeen? Is that --
A
Yeah. He's doing the fascia in the roof.
Q
Is that a worker of yours?
A
Yeah.
Q
Do you pay him a salary?
A
Cash.
Q
Paid him cash.
Eighteen?
A
Cedar fence, and putting landscaping things. Just prepping
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 511
for landscaping.
Q
Okay. Nineteen?
A
Cedar fence.
Q
Nineteen and 20, basically, looks like the similar thing.
What's 20?
A
Fencing.
Q
Same?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Two more here. Twenty-one.
A
This project, I was doing the interior fixtures. I'm not a
contractor, by the way, I don't have a contractor's license.
Never had one. These are -- I'm sending my guys to help somebody
else to finish the interior fixtures.
Q
Twenty-two is the last one, if we could show the full --
yeah.
A
This is one of my guys here. We had to do a quite a bit of
dump runs. I have used probably more than half a dozen trucks to
do dump runs. Construction garbage has to be taken out. So I
have guys who help me with that.
Q
All right.
Let me direct your attention to Defense Exhibit A-3. We will
run through these even more quickly, since there are a few more
of them.
Same general question. Actually, take it down. It's not
been admitted yet.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 512
THE COURT: It's not admitted.
MR. NANCE: It's okay.
Q
Could you take a look -- have you looked at A-3, the photos?
A
Yes.
Q
And what are they?
A
These are marble tiles.
Q
Well --
A
Going around a hot tub.
Q
Mr. Shibley, the bulk of the exhibits, what are they a
collection of?
A
Construction sites.
Q
Interior construction sites?
A
Interior construction.
Q
Okay. Let's run through them very quickly here. Three,
four, you can keep going. Let me stop it on six. What is that?
A
This is something used to cut the tiles. It's a tile cutter.
Q
Is that a tool you own, or did you rent that, or --
A
No. I have a lot of those.
Q
Okay. Where do you keep those?
A
I have a warehouse, 5,000 square feet, at 117115 South 108th
Street, Seattle, Washington.
Q
Okay. Do you keep construction tools there?
A
Yes. Construction tools. I also have a lot in the back
where I keep the bigger equipment.
Q
Let's continue rolling through these here. Seven?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 513
A
This is a -- sometimes they want to repair stuff, so there's
-- and the bottom one is a finish work in an interior kitchen.
Q
Okay. Your crew did that?
A
Yes.
Q
How about 10?
A
That is sometimes one of the favorite things that I do.
MR. NANCE: Could we -- I would move to admit these into
evidence.
MR. WERNER: Your Honor, I object. There's no
foundation. The concern is duplicates. I don't know when the
pictures were taken. I object.
THE COURT: Overruled. They will be admitted.
(Exhibit No. A-3 admitted.)
A
This is one of the things that I offer the homeowners, that
if they have an attic, I would offer them that I will open up the
attic.
MR. NANCE: Ask to publish.
A
And finish it, at a very low cost. And even be able to put a
bathroom up there. And this is what I do is just get a stair
going.
Q
So 10 is the before shot?
A
Yes.
Q
What would 11 be?
A
After. This wall has been created brand new. These steps
are created new.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 514
Q
Okay. What about 12?
A
This is creating new plumbing lines that's coming from a
different location, and putting a bathtub with -- basically after
you do the plumbing, you do the rough-in job, which is running
the lines through the walls, and getting the -- getting it ready
for final fixtures. So it's a rough-in job in progress, with
some tiles around.
Q
Let's skip from that photo 12, to No. 14.
A
Yeah. It's just prepping for putting the tiles.
Q
And 15, would that be part of the same room?
A
Yes. This is tiling the floor.
Q
Okay. Sixteen. Same room?
A
Yes.
Q
Seventeen?
A
Yes.
Q
Eighteen? This is the finished floor?
A
Yes. This vent that we -- I think that I'm also -- I have
crews who does furnace replacement for cheap. If you ever call
Evergreen Fireplace, or somebody, they're going to ask you
$11,000 on average to replace a furnace. I get to do it for
maybe $2,000. The furnace has been provided. That's been cut,
and connected inside.
Q
Take a look at No. 20. Same room?
A
Yeah. It's not finished yet. It needs the siding.
Q
Twenty-one would be, what, an attic you're working on?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 515
A
Yeah. Attic conversion. What I do is to make it feel like
wooden floor. I use this kind of Pergo or laminate, this type of
-- which is not very expensive, but looks really nice. I had
purchased a massive amount of those and stored it. And I use it.
Almost anybody that needs a flooring job done, I will get it done
very fast, quickly.
Q
Twenty-two?
A
It's an attic converted. Getting converted.
Q
Okay. Twenty-three?
A
This is a floor. Many of the time in Puget Sound, you have
rotten woods. And once you pull the laminate, you see there are
problems. So in that case, you inform the homeowners that it
needs to be replaced. So I have a lot of framers in my crew,
carpenters. So just pull anybody and get it done in a day.
Q
Pull up 24.
A
That's the signature thing that I was talking about, the
flooring.
Q
Okay. What about 25?
A
That's like -- the house is gutted.
Q
So look at that. And is the following photo a more finished
version of that, 26?
A
Yes. The house is -- the walls are brand new. The walls
were stripped off to the stud. And after the stud, this is new
stuff put in, with drywall, framing replaced at places needed.
Windows created. Floor created. Same thing.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 516
Q
Twenty-eight?
A
New wiring being placed. The island, kitchen island created
by pulling the plumbing and electric line from a different
source. New lighting on the top. I did quite a bit of this kind
of ceiling with wood -- wood ceiling, that's one of the things
that I do quite frequently. Homeowners like it.
Q
Okay. Thirty and 31.
A
Yeah. Flooring. Subfloor. And then underlayment. And then
laminate.
Q
This one may be out of order, 32, is that one of the before
shots?
A
Yeah. There are a couple of things going on here. Of
course, the floor is getting changed. Cabinets are getting
changed. Appliances are already in the process of changing. But
if you look at the right side, there is a wall being created.
Oh, actually, not created, in the process of getting demolished
and getting -- I'm closing it. And so there's -- a prototype of
what I do is I separate the basement out from the top floor, and
create extra windows in the basement, and extra doors in the
basement. So what happens is if you have a single-family house
with -- say I opened up the attic. I separated the basement, got
a separate opening into the basement with new windows. Now
you've got two, three, maybe four units out of the house.
Q
Who's doing this work? Your workers?
A
Yeah.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 517
Q
Okay. Thirty-four.
A
Same thing. Basically prototype of -- what I did many times
is basically closing that thing, that interior stair that's going
into the basement. Once I close that, the basement becomes a
separate unit. And then I'm creating some extra square footage
in the top floor, and getting an extra unit in the basement.
Q
Okay. And so on. Are these just representative photos of
some of the work you have done?
A
Yes. It's really a representative.
Q
Okay. So I would like you to take -- and I'm going take far
less time with this exhibit, because it's much larger. It's A-2.
Yeah. What are these?
Take them off until --
A
When you use a debit card in a shop like Home Depot or
Lowe's, that card asks, after you swipe the card, it asks you to
enter your e-mail. So if you enter the e-mail just one time, it
remembers it forever, it connects you with your link, and it goes
into -- e-mailed receipt being sent to the e-mail right away. So
it creates a profile for you. You can go to Home Depot and
access your previous history. You can go to e-mail.
Q
Okay. I'm really asking you, what are these? What is this
exhibit?
A
So, oh -- no, in back there's a tool rental receipt for four
hours. One --
Q
Mr. Shibley. It's a thick --
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 518
A
These are more than 400 receipts from Home Depot, in the
first half of 2020.
Q
What time frame do they appear to cover?
A
2020, first quarter. 2019, fourth quarter. Last quarter.
This time frame.
Q
Okay. And if I could ask you to take a look at the tail-end
of these exhibits. If you could skip to the very end. I think
it's No. 3 -- 314. It includes the very end of it. What's the
date on that?
A
Um, I don't have my eyeglass, I'm sorry.
Q
Let me -- it appears to read June 21st, 2020.
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. So are these in -- generally in chronological order
between October of 2019 through June of 2020?
A
Yes. I reviewed those, and it is in chronological order.
Q
Okay. They have been assembled and you have looked at them
after they were assembled; is that accurate?
A
Yes.
Q
Do they depict -- for the most part, I see there's some
other -- there's, for example, a receipt from Lowe's here. But
do they, for the most part, depict receipts of items that you've
purchased in connection with your businesses?
A
Yes. It's in connection with the businesses, yes.
Q
Okay.
MR. NANCE: We would offer A-2, Your Honor, both as he's
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 519
indicated, I think, and they're also self-authenticating business
records.
MR. WERNER: No objection.
THE COURT: They will be admitted.
(Exhibit A-2 admitted.)
Q
Were there other expenses that you -- non-personal expenses
that you incurred that is not reflected in these exhibits?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Why would you be paying cash for -- well, did you pay
cash for those, or did you use some other way to pay for them?
A
Overwhelming majority of times my material is bought with
cash.
Q
Okay. Why would you pay cash sometimes, maybe the majority
of time, and use a card, a debit card or a credit card on other
occasions?
A
Yeah. So it's for -- it's just fast to get out of a checking
line with the card. That's one reason. The other reason would
be that I have -- by the time, looking at this time, I already
have almost a military-like hierarchy system in my businesses.
So I've got site managers who is doing purchases, who is carrying
money, paying contractors and employees. Below that, I got
journeyman contractors who are supervising the worksite. They
have licenses, who manage the work site.
And if you go to the number, I have said 20 to 25
contractors, and another 20 do 25 of site managers. So site
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 520
manager's job is to go and get the material. They would go in
and get whatever material the contractor needed, to streamline
the process.
Q
Let me just pull up an example from A-2, page 156.
This is a receipt from Home Depot, it looks like?
A
Yes.
Q
And I see the date is, what, December 2nd, 2019?
A
Yes.
Q
And then there's a number of items that were -- this is a
Tukwila store. And it looks like there's a number of items that
was purchased. Then it looks like -- yeah, there we are, $722
was charged?
A
A typical Home Depot run would cost easily -- you get a cart,
you won't be surprised if it is $2,000. We don't understand how
expensive Home Depot store is, construction stuff is. You go to
Walmart, average value price of items that you by is maybe $4 to
$5. In construction stores, it's probably average $200. So it's
not unusual to have $1,000 or $2,000 in each run.
Q
Okay.
MR. NANCE: Your Honor, we are withdrawing a portion --
a small portion of what we have tendered to the court earlier as
Exhibit A-1. And so what I would like to do is have him identify
A-1. And we would be withdrawing two pages of that. We would
withdraw page 1 and page 10. So with that caveat, I would ask
him to identify Exhibit A-1, Defense Exhibit A-1.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 521
Q
What are these?
A
So these are the pictures found in my cell phone. I do not
have my cell phone with me. I have been separated from that for
almost two years now. So I, as you know, that my offices,
houses, residences, got ransacked.
Q
Hang on. I'm asking you to just tell me what it is, Exhibit
A-1 is.
A
What it is, these are pictures of people who work for my
businesses.
Q
Okay. So it looks to me like there's three or four
photographs. In fact, they're all photographs. Are they of IDs,
of folks that did work for you?
A
Yes.
Q
Some of these?
A
They are my ground-level workers. The IDs come to me from my
worksite managers.
Q
Okay. And let's see if we can take a look at -- before we
ask that it be admitted -- there are -- take a look at 15 --
it's loading -- not so much the photograph, but as the subject
matter.
A
Somebody is -- I think some names. With their date of birth.
Q
I mean, do you recognize the names?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. Sixteen -- actually, 16, 17, 18 and 19.
A
This guy worked.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 522
Q
And 20 and 21.
A
Yes. It's me with one of the workers.
Q
Okay. Do these photographs depict what you have just
referred to?
A
Yes.
MR. NANCE: We would move for the admission of A-1.
MR. WERNER: Your Honor, some of them are -- appear to
be more like records rather than photographs. So, for example,
the last two pages --
MR. NANCE: Well, it's -- they are photographs of
records, 20 and 21.
MR. WERNER: I don't think there's foundation for 20,
21, or 14. The things that are not photographs. Of people, I
guess I should say, the things that appear to be photographs of
documents.
MR. NANCE: I can certainly ask him about it.
Q
What is 14, page 14?
A
It is the photograph taken from a cell phone.
Q
Of what?
A
Of a document signed by a worker.
Q
Okay. Is it a W-4 form?
A
It appears to be.
Q
Okay. Does that accurately, other than the redaction, does
it portray what you recall seeing on it?
A
Yes.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 523
MR. NANCE: What was the other one you objected to?
MR. WERNER: Nos. 20 and 21.
Q
Nos. 20 and 21. Take a look at those.
A
Yes. Tracy Dennis. I recognize her.
Q
How about the other two?
A
Darell Cadotte and Deuce McDuffy. They worked for me.
Q
Okay. These appear to be receipts?
A
Yes.
Q
That they signed?
A
Yes.
Q
These photographs accurately portray the receipts, as you
recall?
A
Yes.
MR. NANCE: We, again, offer all of A-1.
MR. WERNER: No objection.
THE COURT: They will be admitted.
(Exhibit No. A-1 was admitted.)
Q
So let's just kind of run through this, Mr. Shibley.
No. 2, page 2. Who is that?
A
I personally, as far as I can recall, this person is, of
course, one of the employees. Somebody who's likely -- who's
doing cleaning work.
Q
Okay.
A
Construction site.
Q
Okay. Page 3?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 524
A
Mostly cleaning.
Q
Okay. Four?
A
I recognize him. He was doing the landscaping, pressure
washing, painting.
Q
Okay. How about five? Maybe skip five.
A
I remember him. He did interior work.
Q
I'm sorry, you are referring to which one?
A
The top one.
Q
Top one. Okay. And No. 7?
A
No. 7, the guy in the bottom, he had an electrical license,
that I think he fell off and he was trying to get it back. He
worked a couple of houses. Pretty good job.
Q
And 11 and 12?
A
It's a social security number, I think for the same person
that we saw earlier. The one in the bottom is -- I think one of
the names, of the ten names earlier that was given, he's one of
those ten guys. Read Leaf was doing interior work, cabinet
replacement. This guy on the top, Curtis Nelson, he does quite a
bit of interior work, drywall, framing.
Q
No. 15 -- page 15. Again, just focus on the center of that.
A
Yes. Those four, I -- I'm not very familiar with them. I
definitely know the people. They have done some work, yes.
Q
No. 16?
A
Yeah, I know him.
Q
What did he do?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 525
A
His name is Jigga, J-I-G-G-A. He did a whole lot of loading,
truck loading, site clearance.
Q
You paid him in cash?
A
Yeah. Many of the times -- I personally do not pay people in
cash anymore. In the beginning when I was doing it, I was doing
that way. But when I started getting designated worksite
managers, they would handle the ground-level employees.
Q
What about No. 17?
A
Yeah. He's --
Q
That's you on the left; is that right?
A
Yeah.
Q
Yeah.
A
It looks like one of the vehicles I drive. And me, and Nate.
Three guys, Payton --
Q
You are referring to 18?
A
Yeah. Payton, Rich --
Q
Center that, if you could.
A
-- and James.
Q
There you go. No, the other way.
A
This is in front of my warehouse, with Nate. Nate has --
he's Samoan, so he knows a lot of Samoan workers. These guys are
from Centralia.
Q
What kind of work did they do?
A
Electric.
Q
No. 19.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 526
A
Rico. Getting the -- basically getting the trailer loaded to
connect to the truck.
Q
So there were -- you listed in your PPP application, or
applications, other employees, a number of other employees.
A
Yes.
Q
What about them? Where are they? And, you know, why --
what --
A
What is their details?
Q
Well, yeah. To the extent you can tell us.
A
I have been sitting in federal prison year number two now.
So my whole world has been wiped out from me. My office -- I had
four construction office sites, before I got incarcerated,
including my medical offices. You heard about three of them.
One by one, within weeks, when I got locked up, right in front of
the FBI sitting there.
Q
Well, let me move you to earlier in 2020.
A
Okay.
Q
Okay. You're operating your businesses?
A
2020?
Q
2020. Early 2020.
A
Beginning, yes.
Q
Okay. And then in March, we all kind know what happened, the
pandemic hit.
A
Yes.
Q
And everything kind of came to a standstill. How did that
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 527
impact you?
A
That put me in a full stop. There was the Governor's order
to stop. There was a virus that basically last time we had a
situation like that in 1918, 50 million people died in the United
States only. Reduced the life expectancy from, like, ten years,
within a matter of twelve months.
Q
So this was a scary time for you?
A
I, myself, knew that is coming, because I told many people
back in first week of March: You are looking at least a million
dead bodies. Nobody believed me. I said a million is a low
number. If you look at the history. In 1918, after Second World
War, United States didn't have that --
THE COURT: Ask another question.
MR. NANCE: Okay.
Q
So your business is shut down?
A
Yes.
Q
What do you do about it?
A
I had to keep things together, which is to survive. I'm not
a person who makes a lot of money. My profit margin is barely
10 percent. To make $100,000, I have to, as you have seen, I
have to run a payroll of a million dollars. There is -- that
means I have to earn more than that.
Q
Okay. So let me ask you this: When did you first hear of
the Paycheck Protection Program, the PPP program?
A
I believe, as I heard sitting here, the end of March,
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 528
March 29th, the CARES Act got passed.
Q
Okay. Was that of interest to you?
A
Yes. I get to know it from my bookkeepers.
Q
Okay. So what did you do?
A
Well, I was -- my bookkeepers told me that I -- this is my
lifeline, because they know all of my finances, they know my
situation, they know my margin, and they know what's happening.
I'm in the hole. And I had to basically stop.
Q
Did you think that you probably qualified for PPP loan
assistance?
A
Yeah. I definitely thought that I qualified.
Q
Where did you learn about it?
A
About the program?
Q
About the program.
A
As for -- I mean, my memory has been basically -- I mean, I'm
living in a small cell for two years, so --
Q
Let me -- let's -- were there -- was there internet
advertising? Was there word-of-mouth?
A
That is the only word in town for a couple of weeks, first
two weeks of March 2020, people are only talking about that
program. It's in the internet, news media, TV.
Q
And what was your understanding of what the PPP promised?
A
To patch things together until we run through the tough
times, and keep the employees in the payroll, even if they're
sitting home. If they have a check coming, their children have
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 529
food on their plate. They're not falling apart financially,
socially. And they're not forced to leave their profession, or
whatever they have been doing, and downgrade to some other jobs
they have never done. Or stop working altogether for six months,
and then become unemployed for the rest of many, many years. And
to keep things patched together, as much as possible, until we
ride it through.
Q
So you did your applications online?
A
Well, my bookkeepers. Yes.
Q
I mean, you signed the applications, right?
A
Well, I had to sign it, yes. I did sign.
Q
And you did it in a number of -- by the way, I didn't ask you
this. Why did you have so many different LLCs?
A
Because I was operating, as you understand, in three
counties. Completely different crews. Different locations. One
group of crews do not have any contact with the other crew. One
group of customers have nothing to do with the other group of
customers. So -- and I was pretty aware of the liability issues
that can happen, if something happens. I don't want to just
completely go under with everything. So I wanted to separate
these sides and groups, and basically run it as separate
businesses. Different areas.
Q
That's even what the name says, limited liability
corporation? You wanted to limit your liability.
A
That's one of the prime reasons.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 530
Q
Okay. Why did you make so many applications, so many
different applications. What was your thinking there?
I mean, many of your -- I mean, you applied in the name of
A Team Holdings?
A
Yes.
Q
And Seattle's Finest Cannabis?
A
Yes.
Q
And Dituri Construction?
A
Yes.
Q
SS1. And in Eric Shibley MD.
A
Yes.
Q
Yeah. And others.
As well as these EIDL applications. So what was your
mind-set? What were you thinking that you could do, applying
that many different times in that many -- the names of that many
different entities, the LLCs?
A
I was not really thinking much. My thinking is done
regarding these matters by the tax professionals, CPAs,
accountants, bookkeepers.
Q
You filed your taxes in the past; is that right?
A
I think I'm trying to catch up with all the taxes now. I did
not know that 2019 actually didn't get filed, but I think I was
under the impression that it at least got prepared a couple of
years ago.
Q
What was your understanding on the 941 forms, the payroll
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 531
withholding and the reporting there?
A
My understanding --
Q
Yes.
A
-- about that form?
Q
Right.
A
I do not do anything with that form. I do not create those
forms.
Q
Weren't they submitted on several occasions with your PPP
applications?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. You represented that you had a certain number of
employees and a certain payroll on each of the 941s; is that
right?
A
Yes. So basically to clarify the issue, that I have office
managers, I have around more than a dozen burner phones, five or
six cell phone lines and land lines. It's impossible,
physically, for me to answer a couple of hundred phone calls, a
couple of hundred text messages, and maybe another 50 to 60
e-mails every day.
So as you understand, my attorney currently has one of my
computers. The way that earlier exhibit that you saw, he pulled
that out of my computer, by logging into my e-mail, a couple of
-- I think a week ago. He was able to do that, because I do not
keep passwords. All passwords autopopulate in my business
computers. Every e-mail, every business has separate e-mails.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 532
And the passwords are already -- the computer remembers the
password. So anybody who goes in that computer, if the computer
is given to you, you would be able to log into every e-mail,
answer every e-mail that day that came. Basically there's no
need for any password, in any of the business computers that I
have.
All these e-mails that you have been shown today, the last
two days, these are my business e-mails. Nothing to do with my
personal. I do not even -- there has been days gone by I didn't
even log into those myself, personally. I have office managers,
as I explained earlier, the site managers. I rotate them,
biweekly. Two of them turn into office managers. They handle
phone, e-mail, computer, correspondence.
I have patients. I have -- my job is to make sure things are
running. My workers have a next place to go, for what is the
next project. How to keep things moving and floating, so that
all of this workers, they have children, I don't want them to
look at an empty refrigerator, basically.
So I'm not going to be -- I have to -- have to prioritize. I
cannot be thinking: Well, today is it this tie and the next day
another tie. I'm not like that when I'm out there working. I
have to prioritize things, and think of the bigger picture.
Q
So what were you planning to do with the proceeds of any PPP
loans that you ever received?
A
Planning to do?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 533
Q
Yeah. You applied for them.
A
PPP monies is for the workers. I do not plan to do anything
with that money. I never spend one dollar of that money for
anything to do with me, or any other purpose.
Q
Well, okay. You applied for a number of them, and some of
them were -- apparently were approved?
A
Yeah.
Q
And we heard testimony that one, in particular, I think the
one in -- there's so many different ones -- but there was the
large fund that came in, it was $560,000, that came into the bank
down in Tukwila. You heard the testimony, right?
A
Yeah.
Q
Where you went into the bank and you tried to withdraw the
money?
A
I informed the bank that if I were to use this money -- first
of all, I inquired that, what is your procedure for -- what are
the procedures to draw this money? And they told me that, yes,
basically they asked me why, what is this money for? I said:
It's the workers. And I have workers that are paid in cash.
They went with me and said that, "Don't you do ACH transfer? How
about ADP?" I laughed. And as you saw, the clothes that I was
wearing, blue T-shirt and jeans and running shoes. So I said:
You think that marginal construction workers have bank accounts
and they're going to do ACH transfer? How do you think? I mean,
it seems like their world is completely different than the world
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 534
I dwell in. I just couldn't get through it. I'm talking Greek,
and he's talking Hindi, or --
THE COURT: All right. Let's take a 15-minute recess.
(Recessed.)
THE COURT: Mr. Nance, did you decide how you wanted to
handle the forfeiture issue?
MR. NANCE: I'm sorry?
THE COURT: Did you decide how you wanted to handle the
forfeiture issue?
MR. NANCE: I apologize, I didn't actually discuss it.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NANCE: I will get you an answer before we leave
today.
THE COURT: That would be fine. Okay. Let's bring in
the jury.
MR. WERNER: Your Honor, may I briefly -- the government
would respectfully request that the court reconsider its ruling
regarding the summary restrictions placed on Mr. Shibley's
medical license in late 2019, related to his ability to prescribe
controlled substances. Mr. Shibley testified that he voluntarily
left the medical profession, that his medical profession started
to go under because of his decisions. This contradicts both his
testimony today, as well as the PPP applications, that indicates
how the medical practice is doing.
THE COURT: I had the feeling that the door was
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 535
squeaking open as I was listening to the testimony. I'm not
going to open it up. I think its potential for prejudice
outweighs the probative value. So I understand your request, but
I'm denying it. Okay. Let's bring the jury in.
MR. WERNER: Okay.
THE COURT: But I would be careful about opening the
door, Mr. Nance.
MR. NANCE: Yes.
(The following occurred in the presence of the jury.)
THE COURT: Please be seated, folks.
Q
Mr. Shibley, we were discussing -- you were discussing the
your interchange with the bank, I believe, when we broke.
A
Yes.
Q
You had a -- you had an interchange with the bank. And
eventually you spoke with Mr. Mondala at the bank, is that --
A
Yes. I spoke with Mr. Mondala twice.
Q
Okay. Let me pull up Exhibit 12. If you could maybe just
blow this up a little bit.
You heard testimony about this earlier. You had a -- you had
applied for a large PPP loan that was apparently funded?
A
Yes.
Q
Is that right?
A
Yes.
Q
So tell us about it, from your perspective. You applied for
this loan, and they said yes. They funded it. And so --
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 536
A
Yeah. Definitely.
Q
What happened from your end?
A
It was -- it happened in lightning speed.
Q
Okay.
A
As far as I remember, it was -- with this specific bank,
Celtic Bank, typically a PPP loan that I have seen that, you
know, they at least try to e-mail you and schedule a phone
conversation. With Celtic Bank, I remember that there was one
person. My memory -- I'm really not going to the accurate point.
But it's two years now, and my life has changed. That somebody
-- I don't know if it was this bank or some other bank, somebody
said that typically they will throw a number out. They will look
at the 941. They will e-mail me back, say that, we will give you
this much money. If you are okay, plug that number and send us
the application.
And that amount varies. It's -- with this -- 563 came from
one bank; another bank. I mean, they're just trying to learn how
to do this math, and come up with this number. And the question
was the average monthly payroll, what "average" means. Some bank
was saying: Average means any 941 we will take. Some banks was
saying: We're going to need at least two. Some banks was
saying: We need all four, and then we will make an average. And
I had banks saying: We don't do 941 at all, we only need the tax
return. Some banks was saying: We need ADP, we need -- some
other stuff that I have no idea. So there was widespread
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 537
confusion among them, like -- the people that I figured out
pretty soon, the people who were doing this are not really
regular bank employees either, it's probably out of some garage,
somebody just got a job a week ago.
Q
Did you shop around with different banks to find -- did you
make multiple applications?
A
Well, as I mentioned, yeah. I did shop around. But as I
mentioned before -- I would like to clarify that I'm not sitting
in front of the computer all day to just correspond. I have many
other things to do. I am on the run, basically, so much of the
time. But I have always -- I always have people around me.
That's one thing I never had problem with, that if I need
somebody, I have somebody.
So I got bookkeepers who basically handle that. And they
have -- nobody needs any password to get into my e-mails, for
many years. So if there is a straightforward -- if there is a
complex, like big decision, like final, okay, here is 563,
Dr. Shibley wanted us to go ahead with it.
If it comes to the final, then they're going to call --
contact me. But for minute details and clarifying things with
people, I personally do not do that.
Q
Okay. I guess to get back to this particular funding.
A
Yeah.
Q
That's where we started, it seems like a lot of money,
$563,000 -- and 500 -- that's a lot of money?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 538
A
Yeah.
Q
That's wired into your account, right?
A
Yes.
Q
That's the Dituri Construction account?
A
Yes.
Q
So what -- and there was testimony that it was -- and maybe
bank records -- that it was transferred to a different account
shortly after it was received.
A
Yes, it was the same. I mean, who keeps $563,000 in the
checking account? My wallet falls out of my pocket, somebody
gets my debit card, I'm dealing with -- just imagine the
population. And they -- a checking account is very vulnerable to
any sort of -- it's easy to access a checking account. It's very
difficult to access a savings account. The moment you get a
large deposit in your checking account, the first thing you do is
transfer it to your savings so that you're secured.
Q
Okay. So the ultimate purpose, you told the bank, was to pay
the payroll of your workers.
A
Yes.
Q
Right. So what was the plan on that?
A
The plan is to rehire and retain. And get things moving. I
was under the impression that help was offered, and greatly
encouraged to receive their help. I was under the impression
that it is a genuine offer of help, even though there was a lot
of talk around it that, like, as we have seen earlier, that
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 539
people have made -- like one guy came here and said a hundred
thousand applications he processed. He actually, by the time his
representative talked with me, he already got $20 billion of loan
out, and 5 percent of $20 billion is --
Q
Let me ask you this: In your conversation with Mr. Mondala
at BECU, he and you discussed your intentions with the money --
for the money, right?
A
My intention for the money? Yes, I did.
Q
You told him what?
A
I was clear about it, with everybody.
Q
What did you tell him?
A
My workers needs to be retained, kept on payroll. They need
to be paid. And even if they are not working, they need that.
They have families. They are barely keeping it together. And
they have children.
Q
His testimony was that he offered to try and cut checks to
your employees.
A
Yes.
Q
And what was your response? And why would you say what you
said?
A
Well, as you heard today from him, that it was not a long
conversation. It was a pretty short conversation. Pretty
straightforward. He told me -- Mondala -- Mondala called me,
early in the morning, 8 o'clock -- the way it happened is, I went
to the bank, that you saw the picture. I was told that we will
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 540
need one week to decide that. So we will give you a call in a
week. I believe it was a Wednesday.
The next Wednesday morning, I got a call from Mondala. First
question, "Where is your arena?" Just somebody -- I'm still in
bed. "Where is your arena?" And I'm smart enough to understand
where he's going with it, because in one of the PPP applications,
in the beginning, they asked a question like, like, NCAIS {sic}
code. "What is the NCAIS code for your business?" So you've got
to Google that and find out what that code is and then plug in
the right code.
For construction, there's probably a couple hundred codes,
and I didn't care. My folks asked me. I said: Just use
whatever. Some of this application, they put in a code:
Construction of Arena. That was it. The first one came, so they
picked the first code. And he probably found that code. And he
probably found that code -- The BECU application, I did early.
And he saw my BECU application, at least at that code.
So his first question is: Where is your arena? And I'm
pretty -- I understand he's basically trying to, like, make it a
joke out of me, or something, you know, first talk. And I said:
There is no arena. I understood where you find arena, but I
don't have arena.
Q
Did you -- it sounds like you didn't settle the question
about whether you could take cash to pay the workers?
A
No. Basically he told me that -- it was a very short
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 541
conversation. He said that: Are you going to -- there is
another $820,000 coming. Are you going to --
Q
You told him?
A
No, he told me.
Q
He told you?
A
He knows that already because the money is already ACH --
Harvest approved it a couple of weeks ago. And they were doing
the ACH. Somehow -- I'm not sure that whether the money was
already in there, or he knew it was coming. He asked me about
it: Is that the same way? I said: Yeah.
I mean, by that time, I already talked with the Wells Fargo
Bank. And they didn't have any problem with cash withdrawal.
They said 150 at a time, whenever you come, give us a call, we
will be ready.
I talked with Navy Federal Credit Union, there's a $100,000
PPP loan there. They said, "We just need seven days to get money
together, cash together." But we have to schedule you. Like,
once a week.
Q
BECU --
A
Yeah. I mean --
Q
-- that wasn't happening?
THE COURT REPORTER: One at a time.
Q
At BECU, that wasn't happening. You weren't going to be --
A
No. The first question: What is your arena? So -- so by
that time, I already -- Wells Fargo scheduled me for 150 at a
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 542
time for every three days. Navy Federal scheduled me seven days,
$50,000 each. Every seven days. Two times.
And BECU told me that: We will give you a call a week later.
That was the call. And when he said -- he didn't come clear that
what he's going to do, whether he will give me the money, in
cash, or give me any alternatives. Like, no, you have to bring
the employee here, and we're going to hand the cash to each
employee at a time; or you are going to write a check, come into
our branch, bring the guy with you, and we will cash the check in
front of him. Stand in the line. That's how we will handle
that. There are different ways to do that. He didn't make it
clear, which route he goes.
I said: It's not that I'm coming with a bag and wiping out
all your cash and walking out with the bag from you, it's not
like that. If you understand what I'm trying to clarify.
Q
Let me move you ahead here.
Do you recall events of June 10th, 2020?
A
Oh, yeah. Very. Very.
Q
What happened that day?
A
A very memorable day.
The day pretty much went by with three government federal
agents. I got SOS alert from my contractors. They're not --
many of them have warrants; they came out of jail. The last
thing they want is to talk with the police. And they never had
FBI or Homeland Security or a special agent for the federal
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 543
government, SBA, call them 25 times a day and demanding: We need
to talk with you. You need to call us back. That situation is
unprecedented. These people never had their phone blow up like
that. Once that happened, the news reached to me, like, pretty
fast.
Q
Well, let me ask you this: Prior to that day, had you
provided contact information for some of these people?
A
Oh, yeah. I'll explain how it happened.
That is, by the way, part of the Mondala thing. Mondala
called me on the 27th of May -- that is the second call -- and
said that this would not happen at all; the only reason this is
going is that you applied for a bank account for your cannabis
and we rejected it. So what's the problem? I don't need an
account for cannabis. I don't do cannabis at all.
MR. WERNER: Objection. Hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A
So I don't do cannabis at all. I mean, that license, I got
turned down, and I moved on doing other stuff. I don't need your
cannabis account. But that is the red flag. I said, "Red flag
for what?" "Well, you would know." So that's how Mondala had
that small little call with me.
I think within ten minutes I got another call. This time
presenting as Celtic Bank. "I'm the boss of Rob." Rob is the
guy who just -- I think only one e-mail I got: What is your --
I'm not sure how many, but as far as Rob's e-mail, he said: Hey,
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 544
you are approved for 562,000, and we just need a bank account
number and a check, a voided check. I gave him the check, a copy
of the check. That's the only direction. But I remember Rob's
name. So they say: Oh, I'm Rob's boss. Oh, okay, no problem.
But then he asked me: What is your social security number?
Social security number, that's the first time in my life I heard
somebody asking me for my social security number over the phone.
So I kind of got a little -- I thought maybe the bank is like
that, too cautious. Gave my social.
A pretty long conversation, more than half an hour, I guess,
about various detailed things about my life, about my business,
about a whole lot of things. And my understanding was that how
come somebody knows that much about me. I answered everything
truthfully, as much as I could. And he is saying that: We
pulled the money from your account, Dituri. We have the money,
but we need to talk with you before we put it back in that
account. I said, "Okay. If you feel like, call me any time.
I'll talk again." No, he said, we will clear it with you. We
just need one small little last thing. Could you give us like a
couple of names? I understand that you stopped your activities,
the COVID going on and all of this, but we just need some people
that is on site. Like if you have maybe, I don't know, some -- I
said, "How many?" He said, "A couple." He didn't give me really
a number. I kind of said a couple means, like, up to five. I
said, "Okay. No problem. I will give you ten. And I'm going to
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 545
e-mail you -- e-mail Rob today."
So I called my contractors, said, hey -- two of the sites, so
work managers, site manager, and the contractor, and said, "I
need ten names who is on the ground now. Like just don't throw
their names at me, just people who are working today. I need
ten." So they came -- two people came, five and five, with
names. And I told them that I also need phone number and their
last four of their social, and make sure they're working
currently now.
So I think that evening, by the time -- it was 10:30, I got
the ten names. By 11:00, around 11:00, I send e-mails to Rob --
or Rob's like -- yeah.
In that list, I do know some of those people, and some of
them I don't know. And --
Q
Well, let me ask you this before you go any farther: In that
list, there's two names that kind of stand out. One is that of
Lisa Velotta. We heard her testify here that you two have never
met, she's never worked for you, et cetera.
A
Yeah.
Q
You gave her name and a phone number and the last four of a
social security number and the address. Where did you get that
information?
A
The worksite manager.
Q
Provided that to you?
A
Yes.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 546
Q
And you don't know where the manager got it?
A
(No audible response.)
Q
No?
A
I mean, no, I don't. He got it, and he brought it to me.
Q
Okay. The name "Sam Morgan." This is the -- there is a --
as we heard, there is a deceased Sam Morgan --
A
Yes.
Q
-- back East somewhere that would be 100 years old now.
A
So this is how it happened. Nobody 100 years old worked for
me. But the point is that that phone number definitely blew up
the next morning, I guess, and they got ahold of him. There was
a live person in that phone number that actually was at my
worksite.
Q
Did he represent himself as having the name "Sam Morgan"?
A
Well --
MR. WERNER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
A
Did he --
THE COURT: No.
Q
How did that person represent himself?
MR. WERNER: Objection.
THE COURT: Counsel, that's hearsay.
MR. NANCE: Okay.
Q
Where did you get the name "Sam Morgan"? Where did it come
from?
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 547
A
My worksite manager brought the name to me.
Q
Okay. The phone number, the same thing?
A
Yes.
Q
And the last four of his social, the same thing?
A
Yes.
Q
Okay. So we're probably going to get there. Go back to
June 10th. Are any of these people that you provided the contact
information for, do you see them that day, on June 10th?
A
June 10th?
Q
Yes.
A
Did I meet them? No.
Q
Well, did you see -- were you at the McDonald's parking lot?
A
Oh. Well, June 10th -- I'm sorry. I'm thinking something --
Yes, I was personally there. I met Agent Moran. I actually
brought one of the guys there.
The way it happened is that at 3:00 p.m., just right -- just
after 3:00 p.m. -- I pick up food for my workers, and it's kind
of like our culture that we get McDonald's food for our workers.
And, typically, I personally cannot pick up food for everybody,
so site managers do that. And that day, I saw my -- one of my
trucks, Dodge, is parked at the McDonald's. I didn't go in
McDonald's. I took a left turn, went into the Red Apple, across
the street, and I did my thing there and I turned back, went back
on Des Moines Drive.
An hour later, at around 4:00 p.m., I'm driving again on that
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 548
road. This time I still see my truck in the same spot. That
caused me to turn around and this time go into McDonald's. And I
saw Alicia Smith and Matthew Stellar, they're sitting inside the
vehicle, and --
Q
Are these employees of yours?
A
Yes.
Agent Moran, Homeland Secret Agent, and FBI Agent Eric Hunter
was there. I came out of the car and basically tried to figure
out what's going on with my people, and I was given the subpoena
paper.
Q
By whom?
A
I believe Eric Hunter.
Q
Okay.
A
Homeland Security agent introduced first and said, "I'm
Department of Homeland Security." I said, "Wow." I was a civil
surgeon for Department of Homeland Security for a long time for
immigration.
MR. WERNER: Objection. A narrative response.
A
Oh, I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Ask another question, please.
Q
Were there -- did you observe or overhear any other
encounters between law enforcement and your employees that day?
A
Yeah. In the many -- in three different ways I heard --
MR. WERNER: Objection to any further answer to that
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 549
question.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Well, what were they?
THE COURT: No.
MR. WERNER: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Subsequent to that time, did you -- were you in contact with
an accountant by the name of Mario Davis?
A
Yes.
Q
What was all of that about?
A
It was about -- I got charged with this case and arrested and
then given bond, and looking at the situation, I -- Of course, I
was in contact with you at that time. And the situation was that
I have to catch up with my tax filing and all these things have
to come clean with the government, completely full disclosure and
full compliance ASAP. That was the advice and that was my
feeling as well.
And my previous accountants and the folks that I have, his
office and his bookkeepers, and all of the CPA thing is just not
working. Their excuse is that it's tax filing season and
whatnot. So I get on the back burner and my things didn't get
filed, my things are behind. So I needed -- basically I knew a
person who is a financial advisor, so I called her and said, "Do
you have any accountant who will just get this thing filed?"
And --
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 550
Q
What were you looking to file?
A
I wanted to get totally updated with all the payroll general,
W-2s, W-3s, 941s, 1040, 1120S.
Q
Did you even know for sure what it was that you were supposed
to file at that point?
A
Well, now I know better.
Q
Well, I'm talking about at the time.
A
At the time, I was not as tax savvy, no.
Q
Okay. So did you follow up with Mr. Davis?
A
Yes. I was referred to Mr. Davis by her. And I --
Q
And what is he? Is he a --
A
He's a -- he's -- he has -- he works for Pinnacle Signature,
I guess, his firm's name, and he's the accountant there.
Q
Okay. What did you ask him to do for you?
A
Get me updated, get all my businesses' paperwork done, filed.
What do you need? How can I get it going?
Q
And what was he able to do for you?
A
He got my 2018 and -- I was behind two years. '18, '19, I
didn't get to, and it didn't get filed. It's not that -- The
background thing was done, but the final form was not -- the
final product, which is printed, didn't get filed. There was a
reconciliation problem. Basically, all the dots needs to be
connected. And there was quite a bit of work. I have
essentially freestanding driver's licenses sitting in my hard
drive which goes through bookkeepers, to the CPA firm. They sit
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 551
down and do their charts and journals, whatever they do there.
And reconciling that many businesses, that many employees, and
that many numbers, and it's all on cash. It's -- you saw
$571,000 in 12 months that the accountant showed you. Other than
that -- so you are looking at a small percentage in going through
the bank account.
So first thing accountant asked: Give us all the bank
statements for twelve months. All I do is call the bank, get it
faxed to me, fax it back to the accountant. But that is
meaningless because that piece of paper is less than 5 percent
of my activity. So --
Q
Let's elaborate just a little bit on that point. Your bank
statements reflect less, is that what you said, about 5 percent
of your --
A
It's actually meaningless in terms of my total picture. If
anybody tries to induce or infer or make a reference or try to
deduct anything out of that, it will be like you're looking at a
tree when you are asked to survey the forest. It's completely
nonrepresentative of my activities.
Q
So you heard Mr. Petron this morning testify, right?
A
Yeah.
Q
Those big charts, big fancy charts?
A
Oh, yes, nice charts.
Q
What's your reaction to that?
A
There's a saying: men are in Mars and women are in Venus.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 552
Kind of like that. He is talking about, well, the money has to
come from somewhere. So he's saying that the money has to come
from a -- money has to also go through my bank account.
Well, of course, money comes from somewhere, but that's --
money doesn't run through my -- or those 53 accounts. There is
no reason to. And it's not even practical.
And I don't understand how every day or every couple of days
I would go in to all these banks and get specific amount
deposited and then get it out to 256 people in a weekly -- or,
actually, daily. Contractors get it weekly, and they go in and
out daily. That person is not coming back to work tomorrow if he
doesn't get his money today. He worked today. So he's going
out of the site with cash in his hand.
And that interaction between my contractor and my worker, it
is humanly not possible for me to go to like three counties,
Skagit, Snohomish, King, going to worksites, go all these places
with cash at the end of the day at the time, in all 25 locations,
and meet their demands and deal with them. There's no way I can
or anybody can do that.
Q
Is that the problem that you had with Mr. Petron's charts?
A
Oh, I have problem with every word he said. He is not in my
world. He doesn't -- he probably understands my point, but he
got paid good money. He's not here to really understand what
you're trying to make him understand.
Q
Let me jump to a different point. I'm going to use
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 553
Exhibit 1, page 5, and have you talk about it, what you -- what
your numbers are, how you calculate things.
A
So this --
MR. NANCE: Blow up the figures, down, 1 through 15.
There you go.
A
Okay. So this --
Q
So, first of all, let's go up to the top. And this is
actually an A Team Holdings LLC 941 form for the third quarter --
I'm sorry, the fourth quarter of 2019, correct?
A
Yes.
Q
Yeah. Okay.
Let's go down to the numbers below there. And so how would
you arrive at a number -- and the number here is 975,000 -- for a
payroll for that quarter?
A
Okay.
So you have workers at different skill level, different level
of payment, different demands, different sites. But if you
average it out, if you just ask somebody, what is average hourly
wage of a construction worker and how much is an average hourly
schedule for a construction worker's work schedule every month.
You average it out, 160 hours, 40 hours a week. Their days are
usually ten hours a day. They start early in the morning, done
by 4:00. Give you four days a week -- that's a full-time
schedule -- 160. If you average out $40 per hour, you've got 156
guys times 40 times 160 is a million.
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 554
It is apparently hard to grasp until you actually see it with
a calculator. A million seems a lot of money, but it is not. To
make $100,000 from a business with a 10 percent margin, you're
going to have to generate revenue of a million, and to be able to
pay 100 -- sorry, a million, you must generate a million.
Otherwise, you're in the hole. You cannot go like that for even
two weeks. So you're trying to stay afloat anyhow you can.
And this number is a three-month number, it's quarterly.
It's 975 divided by three is 380-something. So 48 times --
Q
325,000.
A
Okay. 48 times 40 times 160 is 325,000. So that's an
extremely gross calculation. That is nowhere near to actual
accounting and bookkeeping. I'm talking about basic tables and
all of this. If you ever seen a payroll journal, how complicated
it is and how many pages per person it is and how long it takes
for accountants and bookkeepers to get it done, to reach that
simple math that I just gave you, there's a massive amount of
work behind that number, and these numbers definitely just don't
pop out.
Q
Okay.
A
Like --
Q
Are there fluctuations in business, particularly, you know,
in construction-type work?
A
Definitely. I mean, especially in my situation, if you think
about my history, that I started out as a doctor. I'm still a
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 555
doctor. I will be a doctor until I die. Okay. I'm a very
scholarly person. I will stay in the profession.
But if you see the transition on how it happened, there are
quarters I dealt with like maybe six guys. But my connections
and network are there. There is still need there. If somebody
needs their MIL converted into a living place, six months later,
they still need it. They're still there. They're not going
anywhere. I'm not losing the work because I'm not jumping into
it.
So, in one quarter, I may have done nothing. In another
quarter, yes, I started different. Now, if you sit down there
and pick up one number from one quarter, say 325,000, say you
pick up one number from a document, multiply that with four,
because you are trying to reach a yearly number, right? Multiply
that with six, because now you are at six businesses -- five
construction, one medical -- yeah, 4 million.
Make a pie chart. Wow, how did you get $4 million to pay?
Like, where does $4 million come from cash? Right? So anybody
can make a pie chart like that. And I can pull a pie chart like
that. I'm right now in a cell, solitary confinement, cannot
reach phone or anybody.
MR. WERNER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Let me see counsel at sidebar.
(Off-the-record sidebar.)
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ERIC SHIBLEY - Direct (Nance)
Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 556
Q
(By Mr. Nance:) Mr. Shibley, are you still delinquent on
your taxes at this point?
A
(No audible response.)
Q
Do you still the owe the government money?
A
Yes. I'm big-time delinquent.
Q
And are you in any position to pay them at this point.
A
No, I'm not in a position to pay even anything at this point.
Q
Okay.
MR. NANCE: Thank you very much.
THE COURT: You know, counsel, I wouldn't be
particularly adverse to adjourning for the day and crossing in
the morning.
MR. WERNER: That would be a good point.
THE COURT: Would any of you object to that? I didn't
see any objection.
All right. We will start up again tomorrow morning at 9:00.
We will be in recess.
THE CLERK: Please rise. Court is in recess.
(Adjourned.)
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Nickoline Drury, RMR, CRR - Federal Court Reporter - (206)370-8508 - 700 Stewart Street, Suite 17205, Seattle, WA 98101
November 17, 2021 - 557
C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Nickoline M. Drury, RMR, CRR, Court Reporter for the
United States District Court in the Western District of
Washington at Seattle, do certify that the foregoing is a correct
transcript, to the best of my ability, from the record of
proceedings in the above-entitled matter.
/s/ Nickoline Drury
Nickoline Drury
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